From: larsrune@sf.telia.no Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:52:33 GMT Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 345 Message-ID: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.204.238.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Aug 15 13:52:33 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 98) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.ecrc.net!masternews.telia.net!news-nyc.telia.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.238.120.130!news-feeds.jump.net!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail My dreaming FAQ have been updated. Here is the new version... As usual, if you disagree with something, or you know that something here is wrong, then please let me know... Thanks. And for those of you that have put this FAQ on web, please update it... :) Have fun, Lars P.S. I have problem with my news-server. It is not responding. So if you know of a public news-server that allow sending, then please forward it to me. It is a bit difficult using DejaNews. And the messages on DejaNews is a couple of days delayed... --------------- Dreaming FAQ Table of Contents: 1. General 1.1. Does everybody dream? 1.2. Why do we dream? 1.3. How can I increase my dream recall? 1.4. How do external stimuli affect my dreams? 1.5. Do substances like drugs and foods affect our dreams? 1.6. Is it possible to control your dreams? 1.7. Is sleep deprivation dangerous? 2. Dream interpretation and symbols 2.1. Can you interpret this dream for me? 2.2. What does this [symbol] mean? 2.3. Is this [dream scene] common? 2.4. Is there anything special about recurring dreams? 3. Sleep paralysis, walking and talking, night terrors, nacrolepsy and nightmares 3.1. What causes sleep paralysis? 3.2. What causes sleep walking? 3.3. What causes sleep talking? 3.4. What is night terrors? 3.5. What is nacrolepsy? 3.6. What causes nightmares? 4. Paranormal issues 4.1. Can dreams predict the future? 4.2. Is it possible to share dreams? 4.3. Can I view distant locations from my dreams? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. General 1.1. Does everybody dream? Yes. All humans (and mammals) have REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep. Dreaming occur mostly in REM-sleep. You start a new dream every 90 minute throughout the whole night will with increasing duration. But all this is in constant change depending on what you eat, if you are on drugs, or if you have missed your REM sleep for some reason. People stopping with REM deprivation drugs will experience a REM rebound. So you dream a lot during the night, and most of your dream are forgotten. If you don't pay attention to them and only sleep a few hours will you most like not remember any dream. Dreaming in non-REM are more thought like. 1.2. Why do we dream? Dreaming is highly involved in learning and memory. If you have a terrible experience one day, then that experience is digested in your dream. Most likely in a nightmare. Dreams are quite often a reflection of your day memory. The protein-synthesis is highly active during REM, so if you want to learn, then staying in REM is a good move. REM is also necessary to supply the cornea with oxygen. Delta sleep, associated with large, slow brain waves, is what most people call the deepest kind of sleep, when you are hardest to awaken. It is necessary for the brain/body to rest and heal. A good balance between delta sleep and REM is important for learning. Growth hormones are also produced during delta sleep. 1.3. How can I increase my dream recall? Some people remember every dream they have others can't remember any dream. But with the right techniques and enough practice everyone can remember every dreaming they have. The first step is paying attention to your dreams. Think about them. Write them down. Talk about them. Discuss them. Your best recall is when you wake up. So you should write them down or record them with a tape recorder right after you wake up. But spend some time recalling as many dreams you can before you start writing them down. Alarm clocks are dream killers, so stop using them. If you wake up naturally will you most likely wake up from REM sleep. So you should get to bed so early that you don't have to use an alarm clock. You can still set the alarm clock, but make sure you have gotten to bed so early that you wake up before the alarm clock goes off. Sleeping longer will also make you dream more. You will almost literally have continual REM sleep after 8-9 hours. If you sleep 9 hours are you almost bound to remember at least one dream. Waking up several times during the night may increase dream recall and possibly induce lucid dreams. Since dreaming has a lot to do with learning and memory should you try new activities and learn new things. This will increase dreaming and thereby dream recall. And as usual is the power of suggestion extremely powerful, so you should state, aloud if you want, your intention to recall your dreams. Here is also where hypnosis enter the picture. Listening to hypnotic tapes may help allot. So I will create one shortly. 1.4. How do external stimuli affect my dreams? Your senses never rest. Whatever input you get from hearing, vision, smell, touch or taste are incorporated into your dream. You may have dreamed that your alarm clock is ringing in your dream, while it is really ringing in the physical world too. This is how lucid dreaming devices work. They give your signals as light or sounds that you have to train yourself to recognize. But it can go the other way around too. While lucid dreaming you can command yourself to talk while dreaming. This way you can record your dream while it is occurring. Having a tape recorder that turns it self on when you speak will come handy. You can also train yourself to move your eyes in a certain pattern. 1.5. Do substances like drugs and foods affect our dreams? Yes. During REM is the protein-synthesis highly active, so your body needs high levels of amino acids. The neurotransmitter in use during REM is Acetylcholine. It is made from the B-vitamin Choline and the vitamin B-5. But there are more vitamins that can make us dream more. The body can synthesis the B-vitamin Choline. But in order to do that does it need vitamin B-12, Folic acid (B-9), the amino acids Methionine and Serine. Vitamins B-12 plays a role in the activation of amino acids during protein formation. It has also the ability to increase the production of Acetylcholine and normalize neurotransmissions in the brain. Vitamin B-6 is another important vitamin. It is a co-enzyme which participates in over 60 enzymatic reactions involved in the metabolism of amino acids. It is involved in the production of several body proteins and neurotransmitters. It is particularly indispensable to the action of amino acid neurotransmitters, like Serotonin, Dopamine, Melatonin, and Norepinephrine, which effect brain function. It is also involved in the metabolism of Selenium, Calcium, and Magnesium. Melatonin is a neurotransmitter/hormone that is only active during sleep. It is being metabolized when you fall asleep from Serotonin, a neurotransmitter that is being metabolized from the amino acid Tryptophan. Melatonin increase non-REM sleep and makes it easier for you to fall asleep. But it has also an interesting rebound effect that gives more frequent and vivid dreams. The vividness might even give you a lucid dream. The amino acid Tryptophan can be metabolized into Serotonin and Niacin (B-3). Vitamin B-6 promotes this conversion. Taking Niacin/Nicotine patches will increase the Serotonin production. The more Niacin you take, the more Serotonin is produced and more Melatonin is metabolized. Calcium and Magnesium promotes Serotonin production. Zinc is in every cell of the body and is a part of over 200 enzymes, so Zinc supplements may increase REM-sleep. DMAE (Dimethylaminoethanol) is a very important B-vitamin. It flows easily through the brains blood barrier, where it is converted into Choline. During REM is Choline added the coenzyme A (Vitamin B-5), and we have Acetylcholine, the neurotransmitter in use during REM. 5-HTP (5-Hydroxy-TryptoPhan) is a Serotonin precursor that also flow quite easy through the brains blood barrier. A good alternative to Melatonin. Vitamin C helps metabolizing several amino acids and hormones. It is also important to have adequate levels of amino acids. A few important is Phenylalanine, Tyrosine, Methionine, Cysteine, Serine and Tryptophan. Using Tobacco, Alcohol or Coffee prohibits the absorption necessary vitamins and amino acids. Depressants suppress REM sleep, one is Alcohol, but taken in right doses can it give a rebound effect so that will wake up remembering many vivid dreams. And anti-depressants may increase dream recall. Caffeine will make you sleep lighter, will increase your dreams recall and maybe even give you a lucid dream. 1.5. Is it possible to control your dreams? Yes. If you are aware that you are dreaming can you develop full conscious control over the dream. This is one of the most exciting part about dreaming. But more on this will be discussed on the Lucid Dreaming FAQ. Have you tried Virtual Reality? Well, VR is a flop compared to lucid dreaming. Things can't get more virtually real than in a lucid dream. You may use all your senses in a lucid dream, yes, even your psychic senses! 1.5. Is sleep deprivation dangerous? Yes. REM deprivation: increased frequency of occurrence, duration & intensity of REM. Increase in seizure threshold, & progressive rise in heart rate. Increased activity, food motivation, sexual behavior. No major emotional problems Delta sleep-deprivation: Prolonged sleep deprivation (+48 hours) results in severe mental disturbance, attention deficit, withdrawing, visual complaints, hallucinations, and time distortion. After 5 days may you end up in a mental institution. 2. Dream interpretation and symbols 2.1. Can you interpret this dream for me? Dreams are mostly based on your thoughts during the day. So the best person to interpret your dreams is yourself. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to interpret dreams if you don't know the dreamer. The "background" of the dreamer is very important to know in order to see the meaning, if there is a meaning at all. The interpretations you get from the net, is of questionable value. Either they deal with "reasonably obvious" meanings or they rely on symbols. But the best person to interpret your dreams are yourself, check the context of dream to what you have experienced the last few days and your current life situation. Sharing dreams with others are a good way of paying attention to your dreams. If you fail to interpret your own dream, then you could try to post it on alt.dreams. 2.2. What does this [symbol] mean? Symbols are one way of interpreting dreams. Researchers have tried to find, for each common dream occurrence, a psychological situation that matches the dream in some way and link it as a cause. A well-known example of this approach is Freud's interpretation. Asking for symbols allows for (sometimes too easy) interpretation of dreams by given rules. But this is a questionably approach. Dream interpretation by catalog of symbols doesn't take into account individual differences between dreamers. You can imagine this flaw by taking into account that the cultural background is an important point that should not be neglected. Freud's theories, that give high importance to hidden signs of sexual desires, are based on a society that has suppressed sexuality. And so on. In a more global context, asking for special symbols is of dubious value. Nonetheless, in a certain given context, these symbols can have a valuable meaning. 2.3. Is this [dream scene] common? Probably so, one way of finding that out is posting your dream to alt.dreams. You might also stick around and see if other people some similar dreams. Or you might check the archive at www.dejanews.com. Maybe do a search on a few keywords from your dreams. 2.4. Is there anything special about recurring dreams? Yes. If you have recurring patterns or themes in your dreams, then they deserve special attention. They are a sign of thoughts that occupy the dreamer much, consciously or unconsciously. You should try to compare the context of your dream with your current life situation or problems. It is most likely your subconscious that is trying to tell you something. You should try to figure out what the dream means and make some changes to your life. 3. Sleep paralysis, walking and talking, night terrors, nacrolepsy and nightmares 3.1. What causes sleep paralysis? Your body is paralyzed during REM, your body can't even stand. (This is why sleep walking happen in other stages of sleep) Sometimes does the body fail to turn on your muscles immediately after REM. Normally last this condition only a few seconds, but sometimes can it go on for minutes, which causes a very scary feeling. But just remain calm, it will past. And it is not the least dangerous. 3.2. What causes sleep walking? The body is paralyzed during REM, so sleep walking occur in other stages of sleep. It is quite common among children, and can be quite confusing if you find yourself in other places than your bed when you wake up. People have even managed to lock themselves outside their own house. You can dream in other stages than REM, but these dreams are much less vivid. 3.3. What causes sleep talking? Your whole body is normally paralyzed during REM. Your senses remain active, and sometimes does it happen that you partly act out your dream. So you may talk while sleeping if your muscles isn't fully paralyzed. We know that we can dream in non-REM sleep, maybe not as vivid, but enough to talk. Most sleep talking occur in non-REM. In a lucid dream can you also command yourself to talk while dreaming. 3.4. What is night terrors? Night terror is attacks that occur during non-REM sleep, they often involve movement and screaming. They usually have no dream recall or recollection of the experience. This is mostly experienced by young children, about 2% of them. It occur usually within two hours after going to bed. A good way of relieving you from these experiences is finding out when these terrors occurs, and then set the alarm clock to 15 minutes before the terrors start. Do this the rest of the night, for seven days. In most cases does the terrors stop. If they start again, then do the program once more. 3.5. What is narcolepsy? Narcolepsy is a chronic sleep disorder with no known cause. Its onset can occur at any time throughout life, but its peek onset is during the teen years. The main characteristic of narcolepsy is excessive and overwhelming daytime sleepiness, even after adequate nighttime sleep. A person with narcolepsy is likely to become drowsy or to fall asleep, often at inappropriate times and places. Daytime sleep attacks may occur with or without warning and may be irresistible. They may also experience periods of cataplexy, temporary decrease or loss of muscle control, especially when getting excited. Hypnagogic hallucinations; vivid, often frightening, dream-like experiences that occur while falling asleep or waking up. Sleep paralysis; temporary inability to talk or move when falling asleep or waking up. It may last a few seconds to minutes. In addition, nighttime sleep may be fragmented with frequent wakenings. Daytime sleepiness, sleep paralysis, and hypnagogic hallucinations can also occur in people who do not have narcolepsy. If sufficiently troublesome can be reduced significantly in some people with tricyclic antidepressants (eg. imipramine), which suppress REM sleep. 3.6. What causes nightmares? Nightmares are a product of your fears. You will not have nightmares if you don't have any fears. So find out what your fears are, and conquer them. If you are afraid of dying, then you should know that you have a life after death, this is called reincarnation. Just study Ian Stevenson's work if you want scientific evidence on that. If you have other fears, like spiders. Then there is a few effective things you can do about that. We have virtual reality, but since we are dealing with dreaming here anyway is it better to bring up lucid dreaming. Whenever you have a nightmare should you try to visualize a different ending on the dream. By doing this may you experience that is a dream and we all know that dreams aren't dangerous. When gained lucidity can you confront whatever is scaring you. Once that is done can you continue exploring the wonderful world of Lucid Dreaming. 4. Paranormal issues 4.1. Can dreams predict the future? Yes. This is done all the time. I guess you have experienced a deja-vu. Most children do. Some people do it all the time also as adults, and some have even gained control over this ability. You can from a lucid dream travel in time. But this will be discussed in the Lucid Dreaming FAQ. If you are still doubt that you can predict that future should you check out this site: www.psiresearch.org They are one of a few institutes that conduct scientific research on this phenomenon. If you want to have precognitive dreams, then you should check out the Lucid Dreaming FAQ. If you suspect that you have had a precognitive dream, then you should write it down for later verification. 4.2. Is it possible to share dreams? Yes. Dreams can be shared and people may even have conversations with others with 100% accuracy. This is an interesting concept, and again should you be lucid in order to make conscious contact with others in your dream. Many people experience similar dreams with friends or relatives. This is not uncommon either. Shared dreaming is also called mutually dreaming. For evidence on shared dreaming check out this site: www.psiresearch.org If you want to learn how you can share a dream, then check out the Lucid Dreaming FAQ. If you suspect having a shared dream, then write it down for later comparing of notes. 4.2. Can I view distant locations from my dreams? Yes. But this is again called Remote Viewing, Out of Body Experience or astral projection. It is a good way of exploring the universe. You can leave your body from a Lucid Dream or on the onset of sleep. How to leave your body from a dream will be discussed in the Lucid Dreaming FAQ. And you might also check out my Out of Body Experiences FAQ for more info on this. Again, for scientific evidence on this check out: www.psiresearch.org If you suspect that you have seen a distant location, then you should write it down when you wake up for later verification. Good Luck. Disclaimer: I'm not responsible for any action you may take after reading this FAQ. Copyright © Lars Rune Foleide -1998 ------------ -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum ###### From: Clairity@webtv.net (Clairity) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:50:40 -0500 (CDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 9 Message-ID: <307-35D5CA70-206@newsd-103.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <35c6f218.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRhr7y2KFPS2T2lxYpZMMqHtmCDzgIUbXL+KadHyiRy0oYEK7F8fsSxvh8= Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Lars, thank YOU for all the research that you do and most importantly for SHARING it with others! I keep wanting to picture you as some old, grey haired professor!! You have so much knowledge for someone so young (but to me - since turning 40 last year - everyone seems sooo young)!! ;-) Clairity (now where did I put my glasses?) 8-) ###### From: "Leon_Robbins" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 04:53:44 +0100 Organization: Scotland-On-Line Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6r5l8l$ghv$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: e1c6p15.scotland.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2110.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.sol.co.uk!not-for-mail larsrune@sf.telia.no wrote in message <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... >My dreaming FAQ have been updated. >Here is the new version... > >As usual, if you disagree with something, or you know that something >here is wrong, then please let me know... Thanks. Lars, I haven't fully read the latest version of your FAQ, but in the first one I must say I took exception to the way you gave some answers, basing them on speculation, but presenting them as if they were fact. My main problems were with Section 4, e.g. "4.1. Can dreams predict the future? Yes. This is done all the time." "4.2. Is it possible to share dreams? Yes." I find your bold yes/no answers refreshingly decisive, but I think you should qualify your statements with notes that not all people might agree with what you say. I, for one, cannot agree with anything you say in Section 4. How about a split screen for the controversial bits? -- Leon_Robbins To reply to me by e-mail, remove the ampersands from: Leon-news@d&en.pres&tel.co.uk ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <35c6f218.0@d2o204.telia.com> <307-35D5CA70-206@newsd-103.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:59:49 +0200 Lines: 39 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t6o204p37.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t6o204p37.telia.com Message-ID: <35d71d71.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t6o204p37.telia.com Clairity wrote in message <307-35D5CA70-206@newsd-103.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... Lars, thank YOU for all the research that you do and most importantly for SHARING it with others! I keep wanting to picture you as some old, grey haired professor!! You have so much knowledge for someone so young (but to me - since turning 40 last year - everyone seems sooo young)!! ;-) Clairity (now where did I put my glasses?) 8-) ----------------- This is only the beginning.... :) I'm want to collect information about what I consider to be important and put it all on one site. Making those newbies that drop by high just by reading.... :) (I have had many months to digest my knowledge....) The only obligation I have is the army, that might delay the whole process quite some. But with devices like Time Machines should that problems be solved.... (It is worth a shot...) I may time clone myself, so that one of me stay in the military, and the other continue the research. Or I may travel from the military and home every night... BTW, grey hair is a results of some sort of protein deficiency... (Or maybe a mineral.... not sure, not my primal interest... :-) Yours Truly, Lars ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <6r5l8l$ghv$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:49:20 +0200 Lines: 67 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t6o204p37.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t6o204p37.telia.com Message-ID: <35d7292a.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.freedom2surf.net!btnet-peer!btnet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t6o204p37.telia.com Leon_Robbins wrote in message <6r5l8l$ghv$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk>... > >Lars, > >I haven't fully read the latest version of your FAQ, but in >the first one I must say I took exception to the way you >gave some answers, basing them on speculation, but >presenting them as if they were fact. My main problems were >with Section 4, e.g. > >"4.1. Can dreams predict the future? >Yes. This is done all the time." > >"4.2. Is it possible to share dreams? Yes." > >I find your bold yes/no answers refreshingly decisive, but I >think you should qualify your statements with notes that not >all people might agree with what you say. I, for one, cannot >agree with anything you say in Section 4. How about a split >screen for the controversial bits? > One of the reason I create a new FAQ was because of the lack of clear answers on the previous FAQs.... I don't find any reason to be reluctant when there is no reason to be so. That is why I give clears answers that are pure and easy to understand. I state most of what I say with such a clear answer because I believe them to be a fact, based on long and thorough research. To enlighten you some. Everything I have stated in section 4 is true. I'm on several mailinglist where psi people continuously discussion everything within that field. (So much I can't find the time to read everything...) I would estimate about 50-100 psychic people gathered.... Something I found quite convincing, (though I have been convinced a looonng time ago) was a discussion between two psychic with decades of experience if orgone energy or psi energy was best. It was a challenge to determine what of these two energies was the best. (Though I think they are talking about the same energy... :-) Looonng messages was exchanged for a long period, but because of a disagreement on how the challenge should take place was it all called of by one of the parties.... What is common for all these psionics is that they all go under a fake name, or a nick name. You never get to know the real name or where they live. That is one of the major reason why people like James Randi haven't found any psychics yet, though I think Randi himself is a fraud. So, just because you don't believe this to be a fact, doesn't make it less true. Sorry, nothing in part 4 will be changed... Lars ###### From: Clairity@webtv.net (Clairity) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:07:21 -0500 (CDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2305-35D87F69-73@newsd-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <35d71d71.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhR3JfoV4ZIGWH++ceg/XhTVceOOeAIVAKSW8HUBQpTbENWFQTjP+5w52eHa Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!169.132.11.200!news.idt.net!priori!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Lars wrote: <> Lars, did you enlist? When do you have to report and how long will you have to serve? Please take care! Clairity ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <35d71d71.0@d2o204.telia.com> <2305-35D87F69-73@newsd-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:24:32 +0200 Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p20.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p20.telia.com Message-ID: <35d8bafd.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p20.telia.com Clairity wrote in message <2305-35D87F69-73@newsd- <> Lars, did you enlist? When do you have to report and how long will you have to serve? Please take care! Clairity ------------------- I have one month again, hoping that I will get something done in the period. Working on a LD FAQ right now.... There is no choice when it comes to the army, I have to meet or else is jail an option.... Hoping that I will have Internet access in the army, But I think I will get the time machine finished by then, so there is no real reason to worry. Just hope the army will not confiscate the device... Cheers, Lars ###### From: apuccoony@prodigy.com (puccoon) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:43:51 GMT Organization: Prodigy Services Corp Lines: 46 Message-ID: <35da49f0.6543154@news.prodigy.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip129-37-209-167.oh.us.ibm.net X-Post-Time: 19 Aug 1998 03:44:08 GMT X-Auth-User: 003014131/b97e3930a37a536e X-Problems-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!not-for-mail On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:52:33 GMT, larsrune@sf.telia.no wrote: >3.6. What causes nightmares? Nightmares are a product of your fears. You will >not have nightmares if you don't have any fears. So find out what your fears >are, and conquer them. Well, technically correct . . . however -- wow! -- not only have you left much unsaid, but I am quite certain that you and I are a l-o-o-o-o-ng way apart on our respective interpretations of this statement. I would suggest that you broaden your scope a bit to include the following: 1) Prodromal dreams, which can be nightmarish and which do not readily fit your description. 2) Dreams which give expression to fears that have not yet been fully acknowledged and dealt with by the waking conscious. (This seems to most closely match that which you are saying above.) 3.) Fears which arise from the exploration of unknown (consciousness) terrain. > If you are afraid of dying, then you should know that >you have a life after death, this is called reincarnation. No it's not. It's called life after death. Reincarnation refers to the return to the flesh. > Just study Ian >Stevenson's work if you want scientific evidence on that. If you have other >fears, like spiders. Then there is a few effective things you can do about >that. We have virtual reality, but since we are dealing with dreaming here >anyway is it better to bring up lucid dreaming. Whenever you have a nightmare >should you try to visualize a different ending on the dream. By doing this >may you experience that is a dream and we all know that dreams aren't >dangerous. When gained lucidity can you confront whatever is scaring you. Maybe. What if you don't know exactly what is frightening you? Sure, you may be able to come to terms with the dream demon, but have you come to terms with the underlying fear from which it arose? Just some thoughts . . . Best wishes to you . . . Mike E-mail instructions: remove first "a" and "y"; change "com" --> "net" If anything I've said strikes you as baloney, then by all means, don't swallow it. Trust yourself, and I will trust me. ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35da49f0.6543154@news.prodigy.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:51:40 +0200 Lines: 83 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p29.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p29.telia.com Message-ID: <35daf3d9.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p29.telia.com Hi Mike.... puccoon wrote in message <35da49f0.6543154@news.prodigy.net>... >On Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:52:33 GMT, larsrune@sf.telia.no wrote: > >>3.6. What causes nightmares? Nightmares are a product of your fears. You will >>not have nightmares if you don't have any fears. So find out what your fears >>are, and conquer them. > >Well, technically correct . . . however -- wow! -- not only have you left >much unsaid, but I am quite certain that you and I are a l-o-o-o-o-ng way >apart on our respective interpretations of this statement. > >I would suggest that you broaden your scope a bit to include the following: >1) Prodromal dreams, which can be nightmarish and which do not readily fit >your description. 2) Dreams which give expression to fears that have not >yet been fully acknowledged and dealt with by the waking conscious. (This >seems to most closely match that which you are saying above.) 3.) Fears >which arise from the exploration of unknown (consciousness) terrain. > Thanks for the reply. I'll take it into consideration. Nightmares are not exactly my field of expertise. Mostly because I have just had a few of them. But I think also this goes under my statement above. That nightmares are a product for your fears. 1) Prodromal dreams should be included. 3) If you move to another town and have fear because of the high criminal levels in that city, then that might be the case. Or because you don't like you kids growing up in a city. But all this fears that might cause a nightmare. Meaning that it will also fit under my statement above.... >> If you are afraid of dying, then you should know that >>you have a life after death, this is called reincarnation. > >No it's not. It's called life after death. Reincarnation refers to the >return to the flesh. That for correcting that... I should read my own FAQ before posting it... :) > >> Just study Ian >>Stevenson's work if you want scientific evidence on that. If you have other >>fears, like spiders. Then there is a few effective things you can do about >>that. We have virtual reality, but since we are dealing with dreaming here >>anyway is it better to bring up lucid dreaming. Whenever you have a nightmare >>should you try to visualize a different ending on the dream. By doing this >>may you experience that is a dream and we all know that dreams aren't >>dangerous. When gained lucidity can you confront whatever is scaring you. > >Maybe. What if you don't know exactly what is frightening you? Sure, you >may be able to come to terms with the dream demon, but have you come to >terms with the underlying fear from which it arose? > >Just some thoughts . . . > If you don't know exactly what frightens you, then you might have a problem. Maybe you should get some to interpret your nightmares, maybe you should seek a shrink. But I don't think your fear can't be that important if you don't know what it is... As long as you don't have any nightmares and everything else is going just fine, then what is the problem? Anyway, thanks for the reply, need to make some changes.... Best regards, Lars ###### From: 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:05:58 GMT Organization: Self Organizing Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-162.m2-2.van.ican.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!feed.nntp.acc.ca!news.ican.net!not-for-mail this whole discussion on Lars's FAQ has been very heavy for a light spirit. since not every will agree on what is and is not true, Lars, you should rename your FAQ to "Lars Dreaming FAQ", and everybody else that doesn't agree with you can post their own FAQs, too. Will it lead to confusion for somebody new to dreaming? Most probably, but it's no worse than giving them one view as gospel. cheers, cam ######## From: Ken S. Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: 21 Aug 1998 10:23:15 PDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35dda39b.3461977@news.ke9nr.org> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts007d04.las-nv.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!fu-berlin.de!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:04:09 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" wrote: >If there is something you disagree on, then I will present evidence and >proof on >it. Creating a new FAQ isn't easy, you will most likely be violating all the >copyright that are on all those FAQs out there..... > >And I will certainly not rename my FAQ. You need a lot of background >knowledge >to make a new FAQ, well, that knowledge can be found on my FAQ, but if you >want to make slight changes to it will you be violating the copyright..... > >So speak out what you disagree on, and I'll prove every single aspect of >it.... It's obvious that your level of knowledge is so extremely much higher than mine, that I can't even begin to comprehend these things that you have such and full complete and 100% percent correct knowledge of. Your level of advancement puts me to such shame that I have no choice but to add you to my kill filter. Don't bother to reply as I won't see it. The Other Ken ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:04:09 +0200 Lines: 46 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t5o204p24.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t5o204p24.telia.com Message-ID: <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t5o204p24.telia.com cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message >this whole discussion on Lars's FAQ has been very heavy for a light >spirit. Heavy? How? > >since not every will agree on what is and is not true, Lars, you >should rename your FAQ to "Lars Dreaming FAQ", and everybody else that >doesn't agree with you can post their own FAQs, too. > If there is something you disagree on, then I will present evidence and proof on it. Creating a new FAQ isn't easy, you will most likely be violating all the copyright that are on all those FAQs out there..... And I will certainly not rename my FAQ. You need a lot of background knowledge to make a new FAQ, well, that knowledge can be found on my FAQ, but if you want to make slight changes to it will you be violating the copyright..... So speak out what you disagree on, and I'll prove every single aspect of it.... >Will it lead to confusion for somebody new to dreaming? Most >probably, but it's no worse than giving them one view as gospel. > How can clear answers lead to confusion??? That is something that is beyond my understanding.... Hope you will elaborate on this.... Gravity is a fact, so is that we all dream.... Decades of research is enough to give clear and unquestionable answers.... So tell me what you disagree on, and I'll go in more detail so that people like you too will understand the FAQ...... Cheers, Lars ###### From: 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:02:42 GMT Organization: Self Organizing Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3603c357.183768767@news.ican.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dda39b.3461977@news.ke9nr.org> <35ddb2a3.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-051.m4-1.van.ican.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone.news.idirect.com!island.idirect.com!feed.nntp.acc.ca!news.ican.net!not-for-mail On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:48:15 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" added to the entropy with: > >"I SIMPLY WANTED TO KNOW WHAT HE DISAGREED ON!" I assume you're referring to me, as my newsreader says this thread line springs from my post. given that... actually, if you re-read my post, i didn't say i disagreed. I said that not everybody will agree with you. I agree (they are beliefs) with the yes/no answers to the questions, but disagree with a lot of the explanations given. I will point them out in another post. cheers, cam ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dda39b.3461977@news.ke9nr.org> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:48:15 +0200 Lines: 34 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com Message-ID: <35ddb2a3.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsfeed.mad.ibernet.es!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p47.telia.com Ken S. wrote in message <35dda39b.3461977@news.ke9nr.org>... > > >It's obvious that your level of knowledge is so extremely much higher >than mine, that I can't even begin to comprehend these things that you >have such and full complete and 100% percent correct knowledge of. >Your level of advancement puts me to such shame that I have no choice >but to add you to my kill filter. > > >Don't bother to reply as I won't see it. > >The Other Ken For the rest of you that are still listening... (Hopefully...) It is not many minutes since my last mail, so technically will many people fetch this.... "I SIMPLY WANTED TO KNOW WHAT HE DISAGREED ON!" How would you react if someone disagreed with you without even give a single clue on what he disagreed on? (If someone reply to this message, then maybe you will see this question...) Okay, I will rephrase my statement...... >>So speak out what you disagree on, and I'll provide strong references that will back up my statements....<< Stop being so childish Ken..... Lars ###### From: 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:46:36 GMT Organization: Self Organizing Lines: 100 Message-ID: <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-025.m4-1.van.ican.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!news.ican.net!not-for-mail On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:04:09 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" added to the entropy with: >cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message >>this whole discussion on Lars's FAQ has been very heavy for a light >>spirit. > >Heavy? How? I had finished doing some stretching, yoga, and meditation, and then i read the "discussion". From my perspective at the time, both sides were heavily laden with viscous feelings, and when trying to proceed through it, i got the feeling of "heaviness". It's all very subjective. I did delete all of those posts, so I can't give you explicit examples from them. Lars, you in particular seem to take the "I am right until somebody proves me wrong" attitude, which can be demonstrated by your words from another post: >I say high frequency and high voltage is the same. >You say they are totally different concepts. >Unless you give me the difference between high frequency and high voltage >is it still the exactly the same in my view.... There is *nothing* wrong with not understanding something, but in my humble opinion, insisting that you understand something when you really don't is damaging to you and potentially to anybody whom you attempt to counsel. >>since not every will agree on what is and is not true, Lars, you >>should rename your FAQ to "Lars Dreaming FAQ", and everybody else that >>doesn't agree with you can post their own FAQs, too. > >If there is something you disagree on, then I will present evidence and >proof on it. well, since you're offering, even though i personally *believe* it possible, please present published scientific evidence (with citations) on the reality of precognitive, shared, and remote viewing dreams. Don't bother with giving me the psi research URL, as I checked it out and they didn't give any article citations, either, as far as i could find. > Creating a new FAQ isn't easy, you will most likely be violating all the >copyright that are on all those FAQs out there..... not likely at all. first, nobody said they would copy yours. second, given that the questions *are* frequently asked questions, there is no copyright on them. Answering the questions would not violate the copyright, as there is currently no copyright on facts. The only possibility of copyright violation is if somebody copies somebody else's, verbatim. I won't even go into the debate about whether you can hold a copyright after releasing something to the whorling wastes of usenet. All in all, your claim that copyrights will be violated gets interpreted by me as somebody that's trying to maintain control over something, which in this area, none of us should properly be trying to do. Are you here to help understanding or stake a claim on what is yours? >And I will certainly not rename my FAQ. You need a lot of background >knowledge to make a new FAQ, well, that knowledge can be found on my FAQ, but if you >want to make slight changes to it will you be violating the copyright..... when i'm in a bitter mood one day [hopefully i'll overcome my caustic tendencies], I'll copy your FAQ, change something minor, claim it as mine, and see exactly what you're going to do about it. When i release something informational to usenet, i do it for the good of the global community as a whole, and stake no claims on it. I *like* the GNU general public license, and feel that everything should proceed that way. Far be it from me to say "i do it this way, and you should, too", but maybe it is something for you to think about. >>Will it lead to confusion for somebody new to dreaming? Most >>probably, but it's no worse than giving them one view as gospel. > >How can clear answers lead to confusion??? >That is something that is beyond my understanding.... >Hope you will elaborate on this.... Q. "Is the Earth a large quasi-spherical mass orbiting the Sun?" A. "No, it is a disk that sits on the back of four elephants, which stand on the back of a giant turtle." The answer is clear and concise, but that doesn't mean it is right. Before I sign off, I want you to know that I feel you do give a lot of helpful answers to some people here, at least in the brief time since I've returned to this group. I even agree with you on most answers I've seen, but the explanations of the answers are those with which I disagree. I sincerely hope that my responses do not discourage anybody from posting their thoughts, speculations, or experiences on anything at all, whether they are considered "factual" or not. It certainly won't stop me. :-) The important thing, IMHO, is the experience, and the ways the experience changes us. cheers, cam ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35dda39b.3461977@news.ke9nr.org> <35ddb2a3.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3603c357.183768767@news.ican.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:11:47 +0200 Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com Message-ID: <35ddd3cb.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p47.telia.com cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message > > I assume you're referring to me, as my newsreader says this thread >line springs from my post. given that... > actually, if you re-read my post, I didn't say I disagreed. I said >that not everybody will agree with you. > I agree (they are beliefs) with the yes/no answers to the questions, >but disagree with a lot of the explanations given. I will point them >out in another post. >cheers, >cam How are you to talk for others? Saying that not everybody will agree with me has relevance whatsoever. There is nothing I can do about such a comment, there is nobody I can discuss with, there is nobody I can share opinions with..... Glad that you at least agree with the yes/no answers.... And I appreciate that you will point out what you disagree with the explanations.... Waiting as a child on Christmas.... Lars ###### From: "Triskelion Matrix" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: 21 Aug 1998 22:21:36 GMT Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <01bdcd52$bc6cc820$f794e3c7@gothic> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35DDD892.ADFB4B66@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tshlw1-247.gate.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!198.206.134.41!news.gate.net!not-for-mail Mike L. Griebel wrote in article <35DDD892.ADFB4B66@post9.tele.dk>... > [sarcasm] > > Hi, here's a FAQ on dreaming. You may not agree with my answers, but that's not > my problem. > > 1. Is there a God? > No, there isn't. God is fairy-tale, like Santa Claus (yes, Santa is also a > fairy-tale; tell your children, and tell other people's children too). > ........Snip..........Snip...........Snip. First; calling it "sarcasm" still doesn't make it right! Second; I think you should rename it to "An Alternative FAQ within a newsgroup and not the Lars FAQ." Altough, I find both to be very dogmatic. Third; I don't think *all* the questions are asked that often (thus the "F" in FAQ does not really apply then.) Forth; I have proof that Santa is real. I have seen real pictures (on the internet) of Santa's sleigh. It was found at Rosewell. They are holding Santa at Area 51.5. Here then is *my* Dreaming FAQ!!! Triskelion's Dreaming FAQ. 1.) Do we Dream? Perhaps; we are gathering all the data in this area. Note: Please do not drive while dreaming. M. Bell ###### From: "Mike L. Griebel" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:29:09 +0200 Lines: 57 Message-ID: <35DDD892.ADFB4B66@post9.tele.dk> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip16.arcnxr1.ras.tele.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news-inn.inet.tele.dk 903731364 134532 (None) 195.249.97.16 (21-08-98 20:29:24 GMT) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.inet.tele.dk!not-for-mail [sarcasm] Hi, here's a FAQ on dreaming. You may not agree with my answers, but that's not my problem. These are still my dream of answers of frequently asked questions, and therefore a dreaming FAQ, and I have every right to post it in this form. I don't have to call it "Mike's Dreaming FAQ" or qualify it in any other way to distinguish it from other Dreaming FAQ's floating around in cyberspace. OK, here goes. It's not a lot about dreaming, actually. 1. Is there a God? No, there isn't. God is fairy-tale, like Santa Claus (yes, Santa is also a fairy-tale; tell your children, and tell other people's children too). 2. Is there a life after death? No, there wouldn't be much point in death then, would there. Or life for that matter. You only live once (if at all). Reincarnation is a mathematical imposibility. 3. Does astrology work? That depends on what you mean by 'work'. If you mean: Do people believe it works, and are they spending fortunes on the stuff, then yes -- astrology works. If you mean: does the position of the moon, relative to Mars, have any significance for the development on the stock market, then the answer is: Only if the players on the market are consulting astrologers. Those are facts, take it or leave it. This FAQ is posted biannually on alt.dreams, comp.lang.javascript, and rec.heraldry. And whatever other newsgroup I get in touch with. [/sarcasm] -- +-----------------+------------------------------------------------+ ! Mike L. Griebel ! -- my email: griebel@post9.tele.dk ! ! ***** :-/ ***** ! -- NOT! It's really: griebel*post11.tele.dk ! +-----------------+------------------------------------------------+ ! Newsgroups: [o] means: off-topic. ! ! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8201/ -- dreams, etc. ! +------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- +-----------------+------------------------------------------------+ ! Mike L. Griebel ! -- my email: griebel@post9.tele.dk ! ! ***** :-/ ***** ! -- NOT! It's really: griebel*post11.tele.dk ! +-----------------+------------------------------------------------+ ! Newsgroups: [o] means: off-topic. ! ! http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8201/ -- dreams, etc. ! +------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:59:14 +0200 Lines: 177 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p47.telia.com Message-ID: <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p47.telia.com cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message > >I had finished doing some stretching, yoga, and meditation, and then I >read the "discussion". From my perspective at the time, both sides >were heavily laden with viscous feelings, and when trying to proceed >through it, I got the feeling of "heaviness". It's all very >subjective. I did delete all of those posts, so I can't give you >explicit examples from them. The funny thing was that we basically agreed, but many people felt that they have to speak for everyone else..... One hadn't read the whole FAQ, and one was of the impression that NO scientific research has been done on PSI. At least no conclusive had been found. Giving such a statement is what I would call being *dead wrong*... Apparently, the homework hadn't been done.... (Not much fun to read, so you didn't miss much...) >Lars, you in particular seem to take the "I am right until somebody >proves me wrong" attitude, which can be demonstrated by your words >from another post: >>I say high frequency and high voltage is the same. >>You say they are totally different concepts. >>Unless you give me the difference between high frequency and high voltage >>is it still the exactly the same in my view.... > I thinking think straight when I said that.... Don't have time to do stretching, yoga, and meditation.... :) You seemed to know the difference between high voltage and high frequency. But did not say so in your post. Anyway, I didn't think right and didn't give AC the slightest thought... If I'm wrong is there always someone that express that, you are one of those. The problem is that I didn't give AC a thought, sorry about that.... >There is *nothing* wrong with not understanding something, but in my >humble opinion, insisting that you understand something when you >really don't is damaging to you and potentially to anybody whom you >attempt to counsel. > If I had been thinking in more normal scientific paths would I know what you was meaning. Because of me mixing unorthodox science and normal science did this unusual problem occur... I didn't insist in knowing anything. I was just expressing that I would stick with my belief (rather unorthodox) until you gave your views... I need to learn thinking normal when talking with normal people... > >well, since you're offering, even though I personally *believe* it >possible, please present published scientific evidence (with >citations) on the reality of precognitive, shared, and remote viewing >dreams. Don't bother with giving me the psi research URL, as I >checked it out and they didn't give any article citations, either, as >far as I could find. You sure know how to make this difficult. Not many have conducted years of experiments in this field. Thorough research have been done by the "Consciousness Research Laboratory", in many different areas... The evidence that have been collected throughout the years have been put in one 300-page book called "The Conscious Universe". A book that would convince most people. Good reviews can be found here: http://www.psiresearch.org/book.html You will find all the studies you want on telepathy, remote viewing and precognition. A good interview with him can be found on second hour: http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/abell/9708/ab0824.ram?adurl=000000440000001 a00000000 On different magazine can you find articles by Dean Radin: http://www.psiresearch.org/biblio.html (But you will not find many studies on the web...) Here may you find many interesting stuff... Also studies on children that remember their past life... http://www.jse.com/ (Sorry, don't have the time to dig up info on RV, Precognition, telepathy...) You find probably find something interesting here if you have the time to read everything: http://www.paradigm-sys.com/crv/ (The best Remote viewing site..) Another University that has conducted decades of research on PSI. http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ Here is also an interesting site. Maybe more entertainment that scientific research, but it is based on actual research on actual cases... http://www.psifactor.com/ Here are some quite good info: (Check out the RealVideos!) http://www.trv-psitech.com/index.htm (Technical Remote Viewing) Psychic Research: http://www.io.com/~hambone/guide/sci/psi.html Many links to different laboratories: http://psi-app.com/labs.htm This was boring.... I should be more careful to offer evidence.... Well, it will be easier next time... > >> Creating a new FAQ isn't easy, you will most likely be violating all the >>copyright that are on all those FAQs out there..... > >not likely at all. first, nobody said they would copy yours. second, >given that the questions *are* frequently asked questions, there is no >copyright on them. Answering the questions would not violate the >copyright, as there is currently no copyright on facts. The only >possibility of copyright violation is if somebody copies somebody >else's, verbatim. I won't even go into the debate about whether you >can hold a copyright after releasing something to the whorling wastes >of Usenet. >All in all, your claim that copyrights will be violated gets >interpreted by me as somebody that's trying to maintain control over >something, which in this area, none of us should properly be trying to >do. Are you here to help understanding or stake a claim on what is >yours? > I only put a copyright on the FAQ because everyone is doing so. And hopefully to prevent that someone copy the whole FAQ, change the name and claim it to be their own. > >When I release something informational to Usenet, I do it for the good >of the global community as a whole, and stake no claims on it. I >*like* the GNU general public license, and feel that everything should >proceed that way. Far be it from me to say "I do it this way, and you >should, too", but maybe it is something for you to think about. > I also like GNU, but I also don't want other to claim my FAQ as their own.... > > Before I sign off, I want you to know that I feel you do give a lot >of helpful answers to some people here, at least in the brief time >since I've returned to this group. I even agree with you on most >answers I've seen, but the explanations of the answers are those with >which I disagree. > Glad you like my answers, but I would like to know more on those explanations which you disagree with.... You may be on to something, or maybe not... Hard for me to say.... Cheers, Lars P.S. You just delayed the LD FAQ. But what the heck, this is more fun than finding out what herbs help you dream.... The problem is that finding that out has to be done anyway.... ###### From: "Triskelion Matrix" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:49:59 -0500 Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tsmia1-191.gate.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.01.2111 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.01.2111 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!198.206.134.41!news.gate.net!not-for-mail Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message >> > >Here are some quite good info: (Check out the RealVideos!) >http://www.trv-psitech.com/index.htm >(Technical Remote Viewing) > Why?!!! This group of egocentric, lime-light, money-grabbers have more misses than hits! You can verify this by re-listening to the Art Bell tapes. In the past two years they have missed on all the big topics and hit a few small ones (and hit on topics that regular science had already hinted at answers; such as the jet stream, etc..) I wouldn't pay a dime for those tapes! What would it show me; how to locate a stray jet fighter in *the wrong state*!!! I can do that myself. By the way, according to them (on the first interview on this topic) our plant life should have taken a devastating blow by now. Hmmmmm. I *do* see that one of my oregano plants looks a little thin... M. Bell ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:17:00 +0200 Lines: 32 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p39.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p39.telia.com Message-ID: <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.maz.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p39.telia.com Triskelion Matrix wrote in message <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net>... > > Why?!!! This group of egocentric, lime-light, money-grabbers >have more misses than hits! You can verify this by re-listening >to the Art Bell tapes. In the past two years they have missed on >all the big topics and hit a few small ones (and hit on topics that >regular science had already hinted at answers; such as the jet >stream, etc..) > I wouldn't pay a dime for those tapes! What would it show >me; how to locate a stray jet fighter in *the wrong state*!!! >I can do that myself. By the way, according to them (on the >first interview on this topic) our plant life should have taken a >devastating blow by now. Hmmm. I *do* see that one of >my oregano plants looks a little thin... > >M. Bell > Me neither.... There are a lot better Remote Viewing sites out there that offer their manuals for free.... But I kind of liked the videos on that site, taken from different shows and news programs.... It was this site that really got me interested in Remote Viewing. But their hit rate ain't that good.... Regards, Lars ###### From: "Airmid" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:22:01 -0400 Organization: ALLTEL Internet Services Lines: 10 Message-ID: <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lifl4pp87.alltel.net X-Trace: news1.alltel.net 903885342 9570 166.102.186.88 (23 Aug 1998 15:15:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@client.alltel.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 1998 15:15:42 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsin.agis.net!agis!news.central.agis.net!agis!news1.alltel.net!not-for-mail Excuse me for interrupting here, Lars, but aren't you the person who is building a Time Machine and have only studied lucid dreaming for 2 months. What makes you such a fount of frenetically false information? BTW, what's wrong with Lucidity Institutes FAQ on dreaming? Regards, Airmid ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:44:37 +0200 Lines: 58 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p22.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p22.telia.com Message-ID: <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p22.telia.com Airmid wrote in message <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net>... >Excuse me for interrupting here, Lars, but aren't you the person who is >building a Time Machine and have only studied lucid dreaming for 2 months. >What makes you such a fount of frenetically false information? >BTW, what's wrong with Lucidity Institutes FAQ on dreaming? > >Regards, Airmid > Hi Airmid! You are excused..... Yes, I'm building a Time Machine. Do you have anything against that? I have a schematics for a few time machines, and out pure curiosity have I decided to other the needed components and put them together.... A quick, easy and interesting project. (Just do a search on time travel and you'll find many different time machines out there...) And I have known about Lucid Dreaming for about 3 months... That doesn't mean I don't know much about Lucid Dreaming. I have had vacation the last 3 months too. So I have had the time to do whatever I want, and as you might know is Lucid Dreaming one of my interests..... But I have one question: Are you accusing me of providing false information? If so, do you better back up those statements..... If there wasn't anything bad with the Lucidity Institute FAQ wouldn't I be compiling a new one..... To be short, it covers far from every aspect of Lucid Dreaming, there are many subjects within Lucid Dreaming that is not covered. It may be Frequently Asked Questions that they get, but many questions on LD are not answered..... (I'm now talking about the LD FAQ I'm compiling...) If you are talking about the Lucidity Institute FAQ on dreaming, not Lucid Dreaming is it even worse. Not many Frequently Asked Questions on Dreaming is answered in that FAQ. When you see you LD FAQ will you notice the big difference between my LD FAQ and the LI FAQ. With that said, is the LI FAQ one of the best FAQ you can find today on Lucid Dreaming. Live happy, be happy.... Lars ###### From: "Triskelion Matrix" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:50:46 -0500 Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tsmia2-29.gate.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.01.2111 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.01.2111 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.gate.net!not-for-mail Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >Airmid wrote in message <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net>... >>Excuse me for interrupting here, Lars, but aren't you the person who is >>building a Time machine... .................................snip......... >Hi Airmid! > >You are excused..... > >Yes, I'm building a Time Machine. >Do you have anything against that? >I have a schematics for a few time machines, ..................................snip............... Well, let us know when you get this thing going. There is one incident in time that I really would like to know about. You could go to Roswell and see what really crashed. Oooooo; I just had a thought; perhaps you better not do that; it might have been *you* that crashed there (in your time machine.) M. Bell ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:15:45 +0200 Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p49.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p49.telia.com Message-ID: <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p49.telia.com Triskelion Matrix wrote in message <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net>... > > Well, let us know when you get this thing going. >There is one incident in time that I really would like >to know about. You could go to Roswell and see >what really crashed. Oooooo; I just had a thought; >perhaps you better not do that; it might have been >*you* that crashed there (in your time machine.) > >M. Bell > There easier ways of doing that, several Remote Viewers could gather information from the target. With many enough Remote viewers and cross-checking can you get an accuracy up to 100% (ImageStreaming is a good way of developing your Remote Viewing abilities) But the problem with physical time travel is that there is a possibility of changing the past. A few things suggest that. A good reason for why this shouldn't be common knowledge... Cheers, Lars ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 18:54:10 +0200 Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p22.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p22.telia.com Message-ID: <35e04970.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p22.telia.com Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > >out pure curiosity have I decided to other the needed >components and put them together.... That should be: "out pure curiosity have I decided to order the needed components and put them together...." Sorry for the inconvenience... Lars ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:48:58 +0200 Lines: 59 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t5o204p44.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t5o204p44.telia.com Message-ID: <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t5o204p44.telia.com Kristian Adelsund wrote in message <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net>... > >Oh, god. We're losing him. > Not at all..... I'm just reflecting what I have heard or read. It is nothing I have taken out of empty air or just made up. Everything I have said when it comes to time travel is based on what other people have experience in this subject. Just because you don't know anything about time travel, nor do any of your friends know anything about it, nor have you heard about the subject from any other source, doesn't mean that the possibility of time travel isn't there. Nor does it mean that it hasn't happen or is happening as we speak. I have just entered the subject with an open mind and collected all the information on the subject I could find. A lot suggest that it is possible, but you wouldn't understand that because of your skeptical way of thinking. Based on that some things in this life simply isn't possible. And because of my open mind and my natural curiosity have I decided to take this one step further and build such a device myself. I'm almost using more time writing this message than it takes putting a few components together that both mathematically and based on experiments makes a device that works... Sanity has nothing to do with it. Just because you are building a device doesn't make you insane. I guess you call those that built the first airplane insane too? You are loosing your sanity when your senses doesn't function as they are supposed to do, or if you fail to use them as they are supposed to be used. If you fail to talk in a correct manner, grammar or chronological order. If you memory fails, when you can't remember what you did 5 minutes ago. Or when you start seeing things that doesn't exist in reality. Or hearing things that doesn't exist in reality. Only when a number of these things happen over a long period of time can you be called insane. BTW, how can you say that time travel isn't possible, when you haven't tried it yourself? I would say that there is something wrong with you if you are making such a remark... When you can mentally time travel, why not physically? Sincerely, Lars ###### From: The Great Cornholio Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:01:25 +0100 Organization: Virgin News Service Lines: 121 Message-ID: <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> Reply-To: simon.brewer@virgin.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.58.174 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------45213E3A04322B925DBAB248" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feeds.jump.net!uunet!uunet!in5.uu.net!news1-gui.server.ntli.net!news-feed.ntli.net!news7-gui.server.ntli.net!news-feed.ntli.net!not-for-mail --------------45213E3A04322B925DBAB248 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lars Rune Foleide wrote: > BTW, how can you say that time travel isn't possible, when you haven't > tried it yourself? > I would say that there is something wrong with you if you are making such > a remark... > > When you can mentally time travel, why not physically? The problem is that nobody has defined what 'time travel' actually means. Strictly speaking, even if you accept the notion that time exists (which many people do not), the notion of 'time travel' becomes meaningless purely because it applies to every object in existence. Let me make my point. Q: Is a bus a time machine? A: Yes. Consider this: You get on a bus and take a ride around town, leaving your friend on the pavement. When you return to where you started, you will have aged less than your friend - i.e. less time has passed for you than it has for your friend. Of course, the effect is imperceptible if we're talking about a bus going at 40km/h, but nevertheless it's there. It's a basic and undisputed scientific concept, first described by Einstein. But is it time travel? Now, If you've got a bit of cash left over from your bus fare, you might want to build yourself a spacecraft to fly around the universe at 99.99% the speed of light. When you return to Earth after 10 or so of your minutes, thousands of years will have passed on the Earth. So is this time travel? Certainly it seems a more likely candidate. So how come I said every object would have to be travelling in time? Simply because everything is moving relative to everything else. That's the Theory of Relativity (well, part of it, anyway.) You can sit still in your chair and think 'Well, I'm not moving at all,' but in relation to Mars you're zipping along at thousands of km/h. So is Mars travelling in time, or are you? And is your head travelling in time and not your feet, simply because your feet are moving slower in relation to outer space because of the spin of the Earth? It doesn't make any sense, does it? There's just nowhere in time that you can call 'now', so if you don't know where you're travelling from, how can you say that you've ever set off? Many great minds - minds that make us look about as intelligent as snails (Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku, Roger Penrose to name but 3) - have postulated their entire lives about the nature of time and reality and produced very little concrete conclusions on the subject of time, other than it probably doesn't exist. Who knows, maybe mankind will one day be able to manipulate sufficient energy and have such a good understanding of Universal laws that it can build a machine to enable physical interaction with other 'realities', but I can tell you this, Lars: You ain't gonna be the one that builds it! --------------45213E3A04322B925DBAB248 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lars Rune Foleide wrote:
BTW, how can you say that time travel isn't possible, when you haven't
tried it yourself?
I would say that there is something wrong with you if you are making such
a remark...

When you can mentally time travel, why not physically?

The problem is that nobody has defined what 'time travel' actually means. Strictly speaking, even if you accept the notion that time exists (which many people do not), the notion of 'time travel' becomes meaningless purely because it applies to every object in existence.

Let me make my point.

Q: Is a bus a time machine?
A: Yes.

Consider this: You get on a bus and take a ride around town, leaving your friend on the pavement. When you return to where you started, you will have aged less than your friend - i.e. less time has passed for you than it has for your friend. Of course, the effect is imperceptible if we're talking about a bus going at 40km/h, but nevertheless it's there. It's a basic and undisputed scientific concept, first described by Einstein. But is it time travel?

Now, If you've got a bit of cash left over from your bus fare, you might want to build yourself a spacecraft to fly around the universe at 99.99% the speed of light. When you return to Earth after 10 or so of your minutes, thousands of years will have passed on the Earth. So is this time travel? Certainly it seems a more likely candidate.

So how come I said every object would have to be travelling in time? Simply because everything is moving relative to everything else. That's the Theory of Relativity (well, part of it, anyway.) You can sit still in your chair and think 'Well, I'm not moving at all,' but in relation to Mars you're zipping along at thousands of km/h. So is Mars travelling in time, or are you? And is your head travelling in time and not your feet, simply because your feet are moving slower in relation to outer space because of the spin of the Earth? It doesn't make any sense, does it? There's just nowhere in time that you can call 'now', so if you don't know where you're travelling from, how can you say that you've ever set off?

Many great minds - minds that make us look about as intelligent as snails (Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku, Roger Penrose to name but 3) - have postulated their entire lives about the nature of time and reality and produced very little concrete conclusions on the subject of time, other than it probably doesn't exist.

Who knows, maybe mankind will one day be able to manipulate sufficient energy and have such a good understanding of Universal laws that it can build a machine to enable physical interaction with other 'realities', but I can tell you this, Lars: You ain't gonna be the one that builds it! --------------45213E3A04322B925DBAB248-- ###### From: 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:53:19 GMT Organization: Self Organizing Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3604fcd1.460669007@news.ican.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-005.m4-1.van.ican.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!News.Toronto.iSTAR.net!news.istar.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!news.ican.net!not-for-mail On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:01:25 +0100, The Great Cornholio added to the entropy with: > >Who knows, maybe mankind will one day be able to manipulate sufficient energy >and have such a good understanding of Universal laws that it can build a machine >to enable physical interaction with other 'realities', but I can tell you this, >Lars: You ain't gonna be the one that builds it! This has been well summed up. Thank you. :-) ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net> <3604fcd1.460669007@news.ican.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:15:47 +0200 Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p30.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p30.telia.com Message-ID: <35e20271.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p30.telia.com cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message > added to the entropy with: >> >>Who knows, maybe mankind will one day be able to manipulate sufficient energy >>and have such a good understanding of Universal laws that it can build a machine >>to enable physical interaction with other 'realities', but I can tell you this, >>Lars: You ain't gonna be the one that builds it! > >This has been well summed up. Thank you. :-) > I'm sorry, but I have to disappoint Simon. Mankind have already built a time machine, but I was not the one that built it first. That was done a long time ago, and I'm so lucky to have instructions for such a device in my possession. Well, various time machines have existed a long time, but not one as good as the one I'm building.... Regards, Lars ###### From: 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:10:28 GMT Organization: Self Organizing Lines: 11 Message-ID: <360a7f5c.494093030@news.ican.net> References: <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net> <3604fcd1.460669007@news.ican.net> <35e20271.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-018.m4-1.van.ican.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!feed.nntp.acc.ca!news.ican.net!not-for-mail On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:15:47 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" added to the entropy with: >> added to the entropy with: >>> >>>Lars: You ain't gonna be the one that builds it! > >I'm sorry, but I have to disappoint Simon. >Mankind have already built a time machine, >but I was not the one that built it first. you're a right piece of work. ###### From: "Triskelion Matrix" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:16:24 -0500 Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 117 Message-ID: <6rt3da$1jas$1@news.gate.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tsmia3-22.gate.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_0000002B.01BDCFA4" X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.01.2111 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.01.2111 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!not-for-mail This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_0000002B.01BDCFA4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Great Cornholio wrote in message = <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net>... Lars Rune Foleide wrote:=20 BTW, how can you say that time travel isn't possible, when you = haven't=20 tried it yourself?=20 The problem is that nobody has defined what 'time travel' actually = means.=20 Let me make my point.=20 Q: Is a bus a time machine And is your head travelling in time and not your feet, simply = because your feet are moving slower in relation to outer space because = of the spin of the Earth?=20 ............ Hey; you saying my feet are slow!? Many great minds - minds that make us look about as intelligent as = snails (Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku,=20 Kaku is quite a mind. I listen to him all the time. I am not sure I = agree with his Type 1, Type2, etc. Who knows, maybe mankind will one day be able to manipulate = sufficient energy and have such a good understanding of Universal laws = that it can build a machine to enable physical interaction with other = 'realities'... You realize that everything happens in the past? If you hear a = sound, or, see something; it has already happened. The event happens; = the waves hit; your brain processes the info; and you experience (an = event that already happened.) =20 Gee, now I feel like I am really behind things. ;-) M. Bell =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0000_0000002B.01BDCFA4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
The Great Cornholio wrote in message = <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net= >...
Lars=20 Rune Foleide wrote:=20
BTW, how can you say that time travel = isn't=20 possible, when you haven't
tried it yourself? =
The problem=20 is that nobody has defined what 'time travel' actually means.=20

Let me make my point.=20

Q: Is a bus a time machine

And is your head travelling in time and not your feet, simply = because=20 your feet are moving slower in relation to outer space because of = the spin=20 of the Earth?=20

............

Hey; you saying my feet are slow!?

Many great minds - minds that make us look about as intelligent = as snails=20 (Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku,

Kaku is quite a mind. I listen to him all the time.  I am = not sure I=20 agree with his Type 1, Type2, etc.

Who knows, maybe mankind will one day be able to manipulate = sufficient=20 energy and have such a good understanding of Universal laws that it = can=20 build a machine to enable physical interaction with other = 'realities'...

You realize that everything happens in the past?  If you = hear a=20 sound, or, see something; it has already happened. The event = happens; the=20 waves hit; your brain processes the info; and you experience (an = event that=20 already happened.) 

Gee, now I feel like I am really behind things.  ;-)

M. Bell

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0000_0000002B.01BDCFA4-- ###### From: "Triskelion Matrix" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: 25 Aug 1998 14:20:54 GMT Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <01bdd034$4b523f00$0b94e3c7@gothic> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1B885.F3EB335F@virgin.net> <6rt3da$1jas$1@news.gate.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tshlw1-11.gate.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!not-for-mail Triskelion Matrix wrote in article <6rt3da$1jas$1@news.gate.net>... Hey; you saying my feet are slow!? .......snip................ Wow! how did I get all that bold text! Sorry. I guess I replied in HTML... Ooops. Sorry again. M. Bell ###### Message-ID: <35E1CE7D.4FCBADD3@pop.slkc.uswest.net> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:35:09 -0700 From: Beth Reply-To: oberoberts@uswest.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.224.201.153 X-Trace: 24 Aug 1998 14:36:04 +0500, 207.224.201.153 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@uswest.net. Lines: 88 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newshub.bart.net!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.wli.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed1.uswest.net!news1.uswest.net!207.224.201.153 Lars Rune Foleide wrote: > Sanity has nothing to do with it. Just because you are building a device > doesn't > make you insane. I guess you call those that built the first airplane insane > too? A point well taken. > You are loosing your sanity when your senses doesn't function as they are > supposed to do, or if you fail to use them as they are supposed to be used. Who's to say how your own personal senses are to function. Who is the judge of this? > If you fail to talk in a correct manner, grammar or chronological order. You say this is insanity? If so, then children, old people and half of everyone else on this planet is insane according to this explanation, I don't think so. > If you memory fails, when you can't remember what you did 5 minutes ago. You mean to say this has never happened to you a time or two, or to anyone else on this planet? If this is a qualifier for insanity, then we are all insane. > Or when you start seeing things that doesn't exist in reality. Who's reality are we speaking of? What plane of reality are you going to compare this with? > Or hearing things that doesn't exist in reality. > Well, I hear individuals speaking to me during OOBE's, LD's, meditation, etc. Sometimes through telepathy, this is my reality, you may or may not hear them, so does this mean that I am insane? Not. > Only when a number of these things happen over a long period of time > can you be called insane. According to this definition, everyone who has posted to this group would be considered insane. This is not the case. All of us here I would think are here because we have come to realize that reality is subjective and that there are more realities out there than most others know about. We have experienced things and heard, and seen things that would probably have others in our lives who know us say we are not playing with a full deck, but we come together here to gain support from each other. We learn from each other. We experiment, we laugh, we cry, we have all the emotions and feelings of "normal" people. We are different only in that we seek more truth and knowledge about the universe and our existence than most others around us. Does that make us insane? No, no, no. > BTW, how can you say that time travel isn't possible, when you haven't > tried it yourself? Why do you think you need a machine to time travel? I know people who have done this without a machine, including Monroe. I have had many future experiences. I know time travel exists. This is my subjective reality. Those who experience it know it. Those who question it, will either figure out for themselves that it exists, or they won't and will say it doesn't. It is not something that can be an objective reality for everyone at this time. > I would say that there is something wrong with you if you are making such > a remark... > This is unfair to accuse someone that there is something wrong with them. Think about how each person will perceive things differently based upon their own experiences and subjective reality. They could say the same about you, but you know different right? > When you can mentally time travel, why not physically? > Anything is possible. To say it is not, is one sure way of someone coming out of the woodwork to prove you wrong. Remember the world is flat . . . but columbus proved this wrong. The sun revolves around the earth . . . but, well you get the idea, science is slow to catch up with the dreamers of the world. We know different, it is getting the objective proof that takes time. Well, how is that for my first day back at posting? Sorry, couldn't help myself :) Beth ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1CE7D.4FCBADD3@pop.slkc.uswest.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:59:31 +0200 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p30.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p30.telia.com Message-ID: <35e1f090.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Lines: 173 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p30.telia.com Beth wrote in message <35E1CE7D.4FCBADD3@pop.slkc.uswest.net>... > >Lars Rune Foleide wrote: > >> Sanity has nothing to do with it. Just because you are building a device >> doesn't >> make you insane. I guess you call those that built the first airplane insane >> too? > >A point well taken. > Good. Some people seems to be under the impression that if a time machine exist, then everyone would be using it by now. Good news doesn't spread that fast... Just ask people on the street if they know about astral projection or lucid dreaming. >> You are loosing your sanity when your senses doesn't function as they are >> supposed to do, or if you fail to use them as they are supposed to be used. > >Who's to say how your own personal senses are to function. Who is the judge of >this? Yourself. But if you are insane, then you probably wouldn't be able to make that judgement... If you are a danger to yourself or others should you get help or be forced to get help. > >> If you fail to talk in a correct manner, grammar or chronological order. > >You say this is insanity? If so, then children, old people and half of everyone >else on this planet is insane according to this explanation, I don't think so. > You are taking this way too literally. This is a common symptom of people having Alzheimer's and people with brain damage.... >> If you memory fails, when you can't remember what you did 5 minutes ago. > >You mean to say this has never happened to you a time or two, or to anyone else >on this planet? If this is a qualifier for insanity, then we are all insane. A time or two is not enough to make you insane... Again, people with Alzheimer's experience this all the time... > >> Or when you start seeing things that doesn't exist in reality. > >Who's reality are we speaking of? What plane of reality are you going to >compare this with? The physical plane. We have something called conscious dreaming, but that is controlled hallucinations... > >> Or hearing things that doesn't exist in reality. >> > >Well, I hear individuals speaking to me during OOBE's, LD's, meditation, etc. >Sometimes through telepathy, this is my reality, you may or may not hear them, >so does this mean that I am insane? Not. No. But if there is something called insanity, then this is one of the symptoms... Again, you can train yourself to hearing such things. But uncontrolled hearing something in full waking state doesn't sound promising... > >> Only when a number of these things happen over a long period of time >> can you be called insane. > >According to this definition, everyone who has posted to this group would be >considered insane. This is not the case. All of us here I would think are here >because we have come to realize that reality is subjective and that there are >more realities out there than most others know about. We have experienced >things and heard, and seen things that would probably have others in our lives >who know us say we are not playing with a full deck, but we come together here >to gain support from each other. We learn from each other. We experiment, we >laugh, we cry, we have all the emotions and feelings of "normal" people. We are >different only in that we seek more truth and knowledge about the universe and >our existence than most others around us. Does that make us insane? No, no, >no. I was thinking more on symptoms on Alzheimer's or brain damage. And that all this happened in full waking state. Not on the boundary of sleep. > >> BTW, how can you say that time travel isn't possible, when you haven't >> tried it yourself? > >Why do you think you need a machine to time travel? I know people who have done >this without a machine, including Monroe. I have had many future experiences. >I know time travel exists. This is my subjective reality. Those who experience >it know it. Those who question it, will either figure out for themselves that >it exists, or they won't and will say it doesn't. It is not something that can >be an objective reality for everyone at this time. > You don't need a machine to time travel. It can be done with the pure power of your chakras. But that would take a lot of practice and is very difficult. I'm now talking about physical time travel. Mental time travel is easier, but also require some practice without the use of external helping aid. >> I would say that there is something wrong with you if you are making such >> a remark... >> > >This is unfair to accuse someone that there is something wrong with them. Think >about how each person will perceive things differently based upon their own >experiences and subjective reality. They could say the same about you, but you >know different right? Saying that things isn't possible is wrong. You know it, I know it. It is a remark based on nothing but personal belief. And thinking that people that say something that goes against your belief to be insane is even more wrong. > >> When you can mentally time travel, why not physically? >> > >Anything is possible. To say it is not, is one sure way of someone coming out >of the woodwork to prove you wrong. Remember the world is flat . . . but >Columbus proved this wrong. The sun revolves around the earth . . . but, well >you get the idea, science is slow to catch up with the dreamers of the world. >We know different, it is getting the objective proof that takes time. Right, anything is possible. It is as simple as that... > >Well, how is that for my first day back at posting? Sorry, couldn't help >myself :) > Nice to see you post again.... Later, Lars ###### From: 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:55:23 GMT Organization: Self Organizing Lines: 96 Message-ID: <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-064.m4-1.van.ican.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feed.nntp.acc.ca!news.ican.net!not-for-mail On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:59:14 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" added to the entropy with: > >You seemed to know the difference between high voltage and high frequency. >But did not say so in your post. Actually, it was implicitly stated. By my correcting you, it is implied that I know something about the topic. I later demonstrated that I knew what I was talking about, and you didn't. You claimed knowledge on the topic, but it was obvious that anybody who had a *glimmer* of knowledge wouldn't have made that mistake. >If I had been thinking in more normal scientific paths would I >know what you was meaning. Because of me mixing >unorthodox science and normal science did this unusual >problem occur... there is not science that is "more normal" than other science, and there is not "unorthodox" science. There is either "science" or "not science". I can work well in both areas and acknowledge both, but they are separate and distinct, and cannot be mixed. >I didn't insist in knowing anything. I was just expressing that I would >stick with my belief (rather unorthodox) until you gave your views... I didn't have to go far into dejanews for the articles I deleted. Here's a sample of YOUR words: > My point is that everyone can experience precognitive dreams, shared > dreams or OOBE. All you need is practice. And the right techniques. > It is not a challenge, it is simply the plain truth. Saying that > "No, there is no such thing as precognitive dreams" is false. You can > take is any way you want. But it will still be truth, and everyone can do > it. By claiming something is "the plain truth" and further claiming that what other people say is false, you *must* implicitly admit that you know something about the topic. You insist that every single person can have precognition and share dreams, period. Now try and deny that you said that. >>well, since you're offering, even though I personally *believe* it >>possible, please present published scientific evidence (with >>citations) on the reality of precognitive, shared, and remote viewing >>dreams. Don't bother with giving me the psi research URL, as I >>checked it out and they didn't give any article citations, either, as >>far as I could find. >[snip] >The evidence that have been collected throughout the years have been put in >one 300-page book called "The Conscious Universe". >A book that would convince most people. Good reviews can be found here: >http://www.psiresearch.org/book.html I'm not interested in reviews. Furthermore, you said you would provide proof. Citation of a book is not proof - any asshole can write a book. (although I am not attempting to imply anything about "The Conscious Universe", good or bad) Books are not subject to peer review in a standard forumn, and hence, aren't really relevant. I can write a book on how monkeys fly out of my ass, but that doesn't mean it's true. >On different magazine can you find articles by Dean Radin: >http://www.psiresearch.org/biblio.html (more stuff) >http://www.jse.com/ >Another University that has conducted decades of research on PSI. >http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ these were some sites that actually seemed to be involved in real science. However, you've just given me some web pages that relate to this topic and list pretty much every paper they've ever published. When you are providing "published scientific evidence" to support YOUR claims, you should give references to specific articles that back you up. All you have done is gone to a search engine or a paranormal site and given a list of web pages. This is not "providing references". You claim everything you state is real, and it is backed up by real scientific evidence. I believe you have read exactly _none_ of the published and peer reviewed material, especially since you have admitted that your only source of information has been websites and mailing lists. You don't even know what conclusions are drawn in the periodical publications listed. For all you know, they say "sorry, didn't find anything". >This was boring.... it certainly was. >I should be more careful to offer evidence.... you certainly should, especially when you claim you have it. To date, I know of no scientific evidence to support the reality of precognitive, shared, and remote viewing dreams. It doesn't matter if *I* believe them to exist or not - you said that it is real and that there is evidence for it, so you have to provide it. ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:26:20 +0200 Lines: 121 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p53.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p53.telia.com Message-ID: <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p53.telia.com Is this an extremely delayed message or?? cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message >>You seemed to know the difference between high voltage and high frequency. >>But did not say so in your post. > >Actually, it was implicitly stated. By my correcting you, it is >implied that I know something about the topic. I later demonstrated >that I knew what I was talking about, and you didn't. You claimed >knowledge on the topic, but it was obvious that anybody who had a >*glimmer* of knowledge wouldn't have made that mistake. > Just to let you know.... I have knowledge on the subject.... More than the impression I think you have of me... But it is human to fail, and I didn't recall AC there and then.... >>If I had been thinking in more normal scientific paths would I >>know what you was meaning. Because of me mixing >>unorthodox science and normal science did this unusual >>problem occur... > >there is not science that is "more normal" than other science, and >there is not "unorthodox" science. There is either "science" or "not >science". I can work well in both areas and acknowledge both, but >they are separate and distinct, and cannot be mixed. Take a look on the web and you'll find new science, weird science, alternative science, esoteric science etc.... > >By claiming something is "the plain truth" and further claiming that >what other people say is false, you *must* implicitly admit that you >know something about the topic. You insist that every single person >can have precognition and share dreams, period. Now try and deny that >you said that. Precognitive dreams have been proven.... (Do you disagree on that...?) Many people have experienced it... (Do you disagree on that...?) Everyone dream... (Do you disagree on that....?) A near 100% of everyone that are giving Lucid Dreaming a fair try succeed... (Do you disagree on that....?) Do you deny that with enough control over your Lucid Dreams can you also travel in time? So unless you are planing to die within the next 10 years, or are not willing to take the necessary time and energy it takes to be good at Lucid Dreaming is it quite likely that you may develop enough control over your Lucid Dream to have precognitive lucid dreams..... But in other to reach this level is a lot of practice needed. Not everyone will practice that much, not everyone will even know it is possible... Stop taking me so fucking literally and think though the possibilities.... > >I'm not interested in reviews. Furthermore, you said you would >provide proof. Citation of a book is not proof - any asshole can >write a book. (although I am not attempting to imply anything about >"The Conscious Universe", good or bad) Books are not subject to peer >review in a standard forumn, and hence, aren't really relevant. I can >write a book on how monkeys fly out of my ass, but that doesn't mean >it's true. I can see we have a tough case here... I you will not be convinced by anything you read, you need to be there physically..... if even that is good enough for you... > >these were some sites that actually seemed to be involved in real >science. However, you've just given me some web pages that relate to >this topic and list pretty much every paper they've ever published. > Not my fault that they don't publish their paper on the net.... >When you are providing "published scientific evidence" to support YOUR >claims, you should give references to specific articles that back you >up. All you have done is gone to a search engine or a paranormal site >and given a list of web pages. This is not "providing references". > Not for you. Do you have any better sites? I found that PEAR had some good info... in pdf and html... >>This was boring.... > >it certainly was. > You bet it is. Just a lot of bitching about some fucking boring details... >>I should be more careful to offer evidence.... > >you certainly should, especially when you claim you have it. It is all there. You just need to look a little deeper... > >To date, I know of no scientific evidence to support the reality of >precognitive, shared, and remote viewing dreams. It doesn't matter if >*I* believe them to exist or not - you said that it is real and that >there is evidence for it, so you have to provide it. Books will not do it for you... Reports doesn't mean much for you either I guess... Sorry, can't help.... I only sit here infront of my computer spreading information. And information is all you will get. Take care, Lars ###### From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:49:02 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 23 Message-ID: <35ea4943.6835082@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1CE7D.4FCBADD3@pop.slkc.uswest.net> <35e1f090.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: b1-4.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nntp.telstra.net!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:59:31 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" wrote: < snip > >Some people seems to be under the impression that if a time machine >exist, then everyone would be using it by now. < snip > If one is talking about being aware of other times then one doesn't need a "machine". Plenty of people are aware of past/future situations without using machines. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### From: kris@pcsonline.com (Dreamwind) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:52:10 GMT Organization: PacketWorks Public Newsserver Lines: 45 Message-ID: <35e36800.36117518@news.packet.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1CE7D.4FCBADD3@pop.slkc.uswest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcs155.pcsonline.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsgate.tandem.com!daver!news.packet.net!not-for-mail > >Lars Rune Foleide wrote: > >> You are loosing your sanity when your senses doesn't function as they are >> supposed to do, or if you fail to use them as they are supposed to be used. > My vision has been giving me trouble lately. I had better go get my eyes checked before I loose my sanity!! > >> If you memory fails, when you can't remember what you did 5 minutes ago. I have MS. It causes me cognitive problems. Sometimes I can't remember what I did, or said 5 minutes ago. >> Or when you start seeing things that doesn't exist in reality. Reality? How self-centered to think that your little world is the only one that exists. > >> Or hearing things that doesn't exist in reality. My dog hears noise from a whistle that makes noise that I can't hear. I hear people speaking in dreams all the time.... Well, according to this, some person has diagnosed both me AND my dog as insane! and amazingly enough, they did it all on hearsay and on thier own opinion! And ya know what? I think that opinion is totally ignorant. (That's just my opinion though hehehe) -- DreamWind ************************************************************** Remember always, that all power comes from the creator *************************************************************** note; to send e-mail, remove greenpolyesthercan-can from address ###### From: 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 03:55:53 GMT Organization: Self Organizing Lines: 254 Message-ID: <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-152.m2-2.van.ican.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.freedom2surf.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.nyu.edu!feed.nntp.acc.ca!news.ican.net!not-for-mail On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:26:20 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" added to the entropy with: >Is this an extremely delayed message or?? sitting in my queue until i had time to complete it. After this, my responses will likely be delayed for a few days, also. >cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message >>You claimed >>knowledge on the topic, but it was obvious that anybody who had a >>*glimmer* of knowledge wouldn't have made that mistake. > >Just to let you know.... I have knowledge on the subject.... >More than the impression I think you have of me... >But it is human to fail, and I didn't recall AC there and then.... My original point on this, Lars, was that you didn't know what you were talking about when you described electricity. I don't wish to belabour the point anymore, but what you think was a "small mistake" demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding in what electricity is all about. I would not even expect that mistake from a high school student learning about electricity. A goof is a goof, like forgetting a minus sign early in solving a problem, mistaking RMS current for peak current, forgetting the harmonics from a transformer, etc ,etc, but thinking frequency was the same as voltage is more than a "goof". All the more power to you about wanting to learn about it, and i wish you the best with it, but just make sure you understand that electromagnetism has strict rules about how it operates, and you can't go off making your own "unorthodox science" claims about it and expect to be right. >>there is not science that is "more normal" than other science, and >>there is not "unorthodox" science. There is either "science" or "not >>science". I can work well in both areas and acknowledge both, but >>they are separate and distinct, and cannot be mixed. > >Take a look on the web and you'll find new science, weird science, >alternative science, esoteric science etc.... I don't give a crap what you see on the web. Scientists know that there is "science" and "not science". There is no such thing as "weird", "alternative" or "esoteric" science. There is only science and non-science. Anybody who claims that there is "weird", "alternative" or "esoteric" science that is different than normal science doesn't understand what science is. Science doesn't need the web. Science can stand upon its own principles. As for "new" science, i think you might mean new ideas that science is tackling. If that's the case, i can accept that, but don't confuse the meanings. >>>I didn't insist in knowing anything. I was just expressing that I would >>>stick with my belief (rather unorthodox) until you gave your views... >> >>I didn't have to go far into dejanews for the articles I deleted. >>Here's a sample of YOUR words: >> >>> My point is that everyone can experience precognitive dreams, shared >>> dreams or OOBE. All you need is practice. And the right techniques. >>> It is not a challenge, it is simply the plain truth. Saying that >>> "No, there is no such thing as precognitive dreams" is false. You can >>> take is any way you want. But it will still be truth, and everyone can do >>> it. >> >>By claiming something is "the plain truth" and further claiming that >>what other people say is false, you *must* implicitly admit that you >>know something about the topic. You insist that every single person >>can have precognition and share dreams, period. Now try and deny that >>you said that. by your response, i suppose you've realized I caught you with your own words and have decided to change the subject to what I might believe. >Precognitive dreams have been proven.... >(Do you disagree on that...?) What do you mean by "proven"? Do you mean "out of 5 billion people on earth having dreams every night, once in a while their dreams match some future event, but they only realize it in retrospect", then I would think it happens. Hey, you can't beat random chances. Have you ever heard of the stock futures scam? Take (for example) 1024 people. Follow these steps. 1) Mail half of them telling them a specific stock will go up tomorrow, mail the other half telling them the stock will go down. 2) Take the group that had the "successful" prediction, and repeat step 1. 3) repeat step 2 4) repeat step 2 5) repeat step 2 6) repeat step 2 7) mail the remaining 16 people, and tell them that for $5000, you'll tell them what the stock is going to do tomorrow. Hey, you've been consistently correct 6 times in a row - you've "proven" your ability to predict the future, right? 8) Take the money they fork over and run. This is how people scam people like you that don't understand certain things about science. Unfortunately, it works all too well. If you mean "it has been scientifically demonstrated that people can reliably and consistently predict the future using their dreams, and know that it is prescience", then I disagree. >Many people have experienced it... >(Do you disagree on that...?) Many people might believe they have. See above. >Everyone dream... >(Do you disagree on that....?) well, strictly speaking, not everybody dreams, but for all practical purposes I'll agree. >A near 100% of everyone that are giving Lucid Dreaming a fair try succeed... >(Do you disagree on that....?) I don't know if I'll go for 100%, but close enough. >Do you deny that with enough control over your Lucid Dreams can you also >travel in time? There is no evidence to support this. There are only people that believe they have. If you have contrasting scientific evidence, we're _still_ waiting for citations. Having done something and having believed you've done something are two different things. I knew a kid that believed he was born on Mars. What i *personally* believe about this is of no consequence, since we're talking about proof, not beliefs. There's a big difference. >So unless you are planing to die within the next 10 years, not that it's any of your business, but I expect that I'm going to die almost every day of my life. >or are not >willing to take the necessary time and energy it takes to be good at Lucid Dreaming >is it quite likely that you may develop enough control over your Lucid Dream >to have precognitive lucid dreams..... I, and others here, do not support your assertations that everybody can have precognitive dreams, lucid or otherwise. >Stop taking me so fucking literally and think though the possibilities.... So, your calm demeanor breaks. If you don't want to be taken literally, STOP BEING LITERAL with your phrasing. It's as simple as that. It looks like english is not your first language, and you're doing 99% great at it, but the way you are insisting on the literal truth of things, we have no choice but to take you literally. For instance: "everyone can experience precognitive dreams, shared dreams or OOBE" "Saying that 'No, there is no such thing as precognitive dreams' is false." "high voltage is exactly the same as high frequency" I'm taking you as being literal because THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE WRITING. If you want possibilities, I've been dreaming, thinking, and reading of them for decades. I've learned a lot, but by no means have i even made a dent in all there is to learn. What I know is insignificant in the face of what I don't know. Lighten up and stop thinking of yourself as the final word on what's what. >> Books are not subject to peer >>review in a standard forumn, and hence, aren't really relevant. I can >>write a book on how monkeys fly out of my ass, but that doesn't mean >>it's true. > >I can see we have a tough case here... >I you will not be convinced by anything you read, you need >to be there physically..... if even that is good enough for you... I'd be more than happy to be convinced by something I read, as long as you can come up with something that has corroborable validity. >>these were some sites that actually seemed to be involved in real >>science. However, you've just given me some web pages that relate to >>this topic and list pretty much every paper they've ever published. > >Not my fault that they don't publish their paper on the net.... but it is your fault that you provided them as proof of something, which they weren't. To be honest, I'm not particularly interested with what's on the web, as science journals haven't progressed too far into the web. I'd much rather hunker down in a science library, such as you'd find at a university or the ilk. >>When you are providing "published scientific evidence" to support YOUR >>claims, you should give references to specific articles that back you >>up. All you have done is gone to a search engine or a paranormal site >>and given a list of web pages. This is not "providing references". > >Not for you. Do you have any better sites? >I found that PEAR had some good info... in pdf and html... First, I'm not the one making the assertations about what has been scientifically proven, you are. Therefore, it is your responsibility to demonstrate how you have come to this conclusion. Second, I assume you mean "websites". If so, then the point is moot since I'm not particularly interested in them, unless they are from a reputable source (i.e. not from "Jojo's House of the Paranormal"). If you meant "citations", see point number one. >>>I should be more careful to offer evidence.... >> >>you certainly should, especially when you claim you have it. > >It is all there. You just need to look a little deeper. You were going to offer evidence. You haven't. What you have done is akin to pointing at a library and saying "I'm sure it's in there somewhere. Go look for it." >>To date, I know of no scientific evidence to support the reality of >>precognitive, shared, and remote viewing dreams. It doesn't matter if >>*I* believe them to exist or not - you said that it is real and that >>there is evidence for it, so you have to provide it. > >Books will not do it for you... >Reports doesn't mean much for you either I guess... >Sorry, can't help.... then I guess you *don't* have the evidence you said you did. I like books. I like "reports". I don't treat them as scientific studies. Scientific studies are published in peer reviewed journals. The *peer review* is the important part, here, not the medium. Some of the sites you gave *did* have potential, and looked like they were doing scientific studies, and this is GREAT, but you personally haven't been able to back up any of the claims you have made, other than the "pointing at the library" bit. >I only sit here infront of my computer spreading information. >And information is all you will get. *sigh* The great thing about usenet is anybody can say what they think. The bad thing about usenet is anybody can say what they think. Remember - in usenet you are held accountable for what you say. Let me say again for you: I'm pleased as punch about lucid dreaming, precognition, and OOBEs. I wish I had more of them. However, you said there was scientific evidence to support this, and then said you'd provide it. You haven't, and it doesn't appear that you will. Therefore, you have not backed up your assertations. This, combined with you seriously believing you are building a time machine from plans you bought off some guy on the internet, is quickly accelerating you to "usenet kook" status. Some would claim you're already there. cheers, cam ###### From: "Triskelion Matrix" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: 26 Aug 1998 13:07:30 GMT Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <01bdd0f3$3768fe60$d394e3c7@gothic> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tshlw1-211.gate.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.gate.net!not-for-mail cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote > I don't give a crap what you see on the web. Scientists know that > there is "science" and "not science". There is no such thing as > "weird", "alternative" or "esoteric" science. There is only science > and non-science. Anybody who claims that there is "weird", > "alternative" or "esoteric" science that is different than normal > science doesn't understand what science is. Science doesn't need the > web. Science can stand upon its own principles. > As for "new" science, i think you might mean new ideas that science is > tackling. If that's the case, i can accept that, but don't confuse > the meanings. > Well said. I find so many who state "The experiment was a failure". This cracks me up because to the scientific method, no experiment is a failure; you proved something one way or, another. Some of the other examples you state above. The web is full of bull including the "esoteric science". Hell, electron spin was esoteric some time back but is wasn't "esoteric science". There is just "science" as you have stated. It looks as if "Science" is the new dartboard (with the truth behind the bord.) It is a shame that more people don't know the scientific method because now we are getting all of these distortions. Dr. Kaku must be pulling his hair out. M. Bell gothic@gate.net http://www.gate.net/~gothic/sync.htm ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1CE7D.4FCBADD3@pop.slkc.uswest.net> <35e36800.36117518@news.packet.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:47:11 +0200 Lines: 70 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p7.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p7.telia.com Message-ID: <35e4121a.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p7.telia.com Dreamwind wrote in message <35e36800.36117518@news.packet.net>... > >>> You are loosing your sanity when your senses doesn't function as they are >>> supposed to do, or if you fail to use them as they are supposed to be used. >> >My vision has been giving me trouble lately. I had better go get my >eyes checked before I loose my sanity!! > I'm also slight nearsighted, but that doesn't mean you are insane... >> >>> If you memory fails, when you can't remember what you did 5 minutes ago. > >I have MS. It causes me cognitive problems. Sometimes I can't remember >what I did, or said 5 minutes ago. > Not sure what MS is.... But it doesn't sound fun.... > >>> Or when you start seeing things that doesn't exist in reality. > >Reality? How self-centered to think that your little world is the only >one that exists. I'm of course talking about the physical plane. And last time I checked it the physical plane the same for everyone... And I'm not the only one living in the physical plane... > >> >>> Or hearing things that doesn't exist in reality. > >My dog hears noise from a whistle that makes noise that I can't hear. >I hear people speaking in dreams all the time.... Again, I'm talking about the physical plane, and dreams are not in the physical plane. The vibrations from a dog whistle exist in the physical plane, but you don't have ear good enough to hear them... (Neither do I...) Just because your dog have better hearing than you and me doesn't mean that it is insane.... > >Well, according to this, some person has diagnosed both me AND my dog >as insane! and amazingly enough, they did it all on hearsay and on >thier own opinion! And ya know what? I think that opinion is totally >ignorant. (That's just my opinion though hehehe) > Certainly not. Of course you will think the opinion is totally ignorant when you don't understand what I'm trying to say.... My list is usually symptoms from people that are diagnosed as insane. But having doesn't symptoms doesn't automatically make you insane. Giving a list is not enough, more detailed investigation on each subject need to be conducted, but don't come asking me for help. I'm not qualified to give that diagnose. Good luck with your MS, Lars ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 17:12:09 +0200 Lines: 287 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p7.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p7.telia.com Message-ID: <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-nyc.telia.net!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p7.telia.com cam - remove 666 for nospam <717323666@ican.net> wrote in message > > >My original point on this, Lars, was that you didn't know what you >were talking about when you described electricity. I don't wish to >belabour the point anymore, but what you think was a "small mistake" >demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding in what electricity is all >about. I would not even expect that mistake from a high school >student learning about electricity. A goof is a goof, like forgetting >a minus sign early in solving a problem, mistaking RMS current for >peak current, forgetting the harmonics from a transformer, etc ,etc, >but thinking frequency was the same as voltage is more than a "goof". >All the more power to you about wanting to learn about it, and i wish >you the best with it, but just make sure you understand that >electromagnetism has strict rules about how it operates, and you can't >go off making your own "unorthodox science" claims about it and expect >to be right. Blah, blah, blah.... > >I don't give a crap what you see on the web. Scientists know that >there is "science" and "not science". There is no such thing as >"weird", "alternative" or "esoteric" science. There is only science >and non-science. Anybody who claims that there is "weird", >"alternative" or "esoteric" science that is different than normal >science doesn't understand what science is. Science doesn't need the >web. Science can stand upon its own principles. >As for "new" science, i think you might mean new ideas that science is >tackling. If that's the case, i can accept that, but don't confuse >the meanings. > Well, that is your opinion... > >>Precognitive dreams have been proven.... >>(Do you disagree on that...?) > >What do you mean by "proven"? I meaning evidence that show that people have precognitive dreams beyond resonable doubt.... One man claim you have precogitive dreams quite often.... (No, make that a number of people...) His dreams are recorded and later verified. After many tries is there just a tiny little mathematically possibility that it all was a coincidence.... > >>Many people have experienced it... >>(Do you disagree on that...?) > >Many people might believe they have. See above. Why is it that some people experience it all the time and some don't at all.... After a certain amount of precognitive dreams does that coincidence possibility fade..... You will find a few people on alt.paranet.psi that have had precognitive dreams often.... > >>Everyone dream... >>(Do you disagree on that....?) > >well, strictly speaking, not everybody dreams, but for all practical >purposes I'll agree. Good. > >>A near 100% of everyone that are giving Lucid Dreaming a fair try succeed... >>(Do you disagree on that....?) > >I don't know if I'll go for 100%, but close enough. 99% percent sounds like a good number.... > >>Do you deny that with enough control over your Lucid Dreams can you also >>travel in time? > >There is no evidence to support this. There are only people that >believe they have. If you have contrasting scientific evidence, we're >_still_ waiting for citations. Having done something and having >believed you've done something are two different things. I knew a kid >that believed he was born on Mars. > You say that there is no evidence to support that. I don't like that comment. You must be all-knowing to state something like that.... As said, after a number of tries, say 10 years, is very unlikely that the experiences are just plain coincidence. You may start out by having precognitive dreams as a child. You ignore them at first and call them off as coincidence, but after some time can't you call the off as coincidence anymore and start investigating these experience. And after many, many years have you developed the ability to have precogntive dreams at will from a Lucid Dream... >What i *personally* believe about this is of no consequence, since >we're talking about proof, not beliefs. There's a big difference. I know of people having long chats in shared dreams, write it down when they wake up and compare notes later on the day. People have precognitve dreams, write it down, and I'll be damned, the same thing happen later in time too. I know this has been done in a laboratory (BIG DIFFERENCE), but give me some time and I'll try to provide citations... > >>So unless you are planing to die within the next 10 years, > >not that it's any of your business, but I expect that I'm going to die >almost every day of my life. I don't, as long as I'm not sitting in a car. I try to avoid cars... > >I, and others here, do not support your assertations that everybody >can have precognitive dreams, lucid or otherwise. I have noticed that.... If you have had precogntive dreams, then maybe... just maybe... >It looks like english is not your first language, and you're >doing 99% great at it I'm starting to wonder if I'm better at english than my first language, norwegian..... >"everyone can experience precognitive dreams, shared dreams or OOBE" >"Saying that 'No, there is no such thing as precognitive dreams' is >false." Note the CAN... CAN means that you can accomplish something. Are there some genetic difference in people that have precognitive dreams in contrast to other "normal" people...? I have been asking a few children if they have had dreams predicting future events. Most of them answer yes, and give me an example. I personally believe to have had such experiences. But as most people haven't I had enought to exclude that coincidence possiblity, just a few people experience many enough precogntive dreams to almost rule out the coincidence.... And I want to again express that saying that something is not the case is a statement nobody in the entire universe can make. You need to have proof that something is not the case to make such a statement, and that is impossible... >"high voltage is exactly the same as high frequency" I commented on this before. I'm not gonna do it again. I was in a certain state of mind, made the wrong connections, like a computer messing up, and the wrong words came out. I SHOULD have meditated on the issue, and map out every possible explanation before doing such a stupid thing as typing on this keyboard of mine.... > >I'd be more than happy to be convinced by something I read, as long as >you can come up with something that has corroborable validity. > And what do you consider to be of corroborable validity? >>Not my fault that they don't publish their paper on the net.... > >but it is your fault that you provided them as proof of something, >which they weren't. To be honest, I'm not particularly interested >with what's on the web, as science journals haven't progressed too far >into the web. I'd much rather hunker down in a science library, such >as you'd find at a university or the ilk. You know at least where you can find these reports... > > >First, I'm not the one making the assertations about what has been >scientifically proven, you are. Therefore, it is your responsibility >to demonstrate how you have come to this conclusion. >Second, I assume you mean "websites". If so, then the point is moot >since I'm not particularly interested in them, unless they are from a >reputable source (i.e. not from "Jojo's House of the Paranormal"). >If you meant "citations", see point number one. Most of my conclusions are based on what people have told me personally. Not something I read on the web or in a book. If you add up all that is there no doubt in my mind that there is such a thing as paranormal.... But isn't a university a reputable source?? I guess their not that anymore when I start research on something as fucked up as the paranormal... > >>Books will not do it for you... >>Reports doesn't mean much for you either I guess... >>Sorry, can't help.... > >then I guess you *don't* have the evidence you said you did. >I like books. I like "reports". I don't treat them as scientific >studies. Scientific studies are published in peer reviewed journals. >The *peer review* is the important part, here, not the medium. Some >of the sites you gave *did* have potential, and looked like they were >doing scientific studies, and this is GREAT, but you personally >haven't been able to back up any of the claims you have made, other >than the "pointing at the library" bit. > Maybe the *peer review* will come along one day, if it hasn't already. The problem could be finding subjects for such research. Okay, this has to be done in a laboratory. And precognitve dreams are not something you have every day. You can't normally have them at will. Just a few people have developed the ability to have them at will. Just as having Lucid Dreams at will is difficult. The best thing we can do is providing these institutes with subjects and foundings.... Since you obviously need *peer review*... >>I only sit here infront of my computer spreading information. >>And information is all you will get. > >*sigh* >The great thing about usenet is anybody can say what they think. The >bad thing about usenet is anybody can say what they think. There is two sides on every coin.... > >Remember - in usenet you are held accountable for what you say. I have noticed that... > >Let me say again for you: I'm pleased as punch about lucid dreaming, >precognition, and OOBEs. I wish I had more of them. However, you >said there was scientific evidence to support this, and then said >you'd provide it. You haven't, and it doesn't appear that you will. >Therefore, you have not backed up your assertations. This, combined >with you seriously believing you are building a time machine from >plans you bought off some guy on the internet, is quickly accelerating >you to "usenet kook" status. Some would claim you're already there. I haven't bought a damn fucking thing when it comes to time machines... If you have read that, then I think you need new glasses.... When one guy claim to have built a time machine, in addition to "the philadelphia experiment" and "the montauk project", in addition to a few other people claiming to have successfully travelled in time, in addition to every info I have picked up on precognitive dreams and remote viewing to the future and stuff like that, makes me a little cuirous. Building a time machine doesn't require all the time in the world, and I want to test it out. I got the plans for free. And I'm building the time machine to satisfy my own curiosity. The time and energy needed to build a time machine, is far too little compared to the potentially outcome I can have from such a machine. You obviously belive that this machine will not work, even if you don't know the first thing about it. I believe it might work, and I'm taking the little effeort needed to build it. If it doesn't work, bummer. If it does work, jippi. It is as easy as that. You don't have to be insane to order a few componentes and put them together and follow the instructions. You just need faith. But are you saying you have had precognitive dreams? > >cheers, > >cam You seems to be certain that there is no such thing as time machines, nor will there ever be. I'm open for the possibility and are willing to test it out. There exist a reality outside yours... Cheers, Lars ###### From: "Leon_Robbins" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:40:15 +0100 Organization: Scotland-On-Line Lines: 53 Message-ID: <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: e2c2p42.scotland.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2110.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.sol.co.uk!not-for-mail Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com>... 8>< SNIP ><8 >Building a time machine doesn't require all the time in the >world, and I want to test it out. I got the plans for free. And I'm building >the time machine to satisfy my own curiosity. The time and energy >needed to build a time machine, is far too little compared to the >potentially outcome I can have from such a machine. >You obviously belive that this machine will not work, even if you >don't know the first thing about it. I believe it might work, and >I'm taking the little effeort needed to build it. If it doesn't work, >bummer. If it does work, jippi. It is as easy as that. You don't have >to be insane to order a few componentes and put them together >and follow the instructions. You just need faith. 8>< SNIP ><8 I think some people are saying plenty of worthwhile things here, but as a healthy bunfight-type dialectic this thread went down the toilet ages ago. So I'd like to branch off into a different topic touched on by Lars and others once or twice: the time machine being built chez Foleide. Lars, I'd like to know more about it. I don't want web hyperlinks; I want your own comments on how your time-machine project is going. Perhaps you could set up a web page on it, to keep us up-to-date on its progress. I would certainly be a regular visitor, and I don't doubt that many others here would be equally interested. I'd love to see a log/diary type thing, and some pictures, and maybe a few hints about what ingredients I would need to mix together to make a time machine for myself. How about it, Lars? Show us a sign, something we can believe in. -- Leon_Robbins To reply to me by e-mail, remove the ampersands from: Leon-news@d&en.pres&tel.co.uk ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:38:13 +0200 Lines: 46 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: t6o204p15.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t6o204p15.telia.com Message-ID: <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t6o204p15.telia.com Leon_Robbins wrote in message <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk>... > >Lars, I'd like to know more about it. I don't want web >hyperlinks; I want your own comments on how your >time-machine project is going. Perhaps you could set up a >web page on it, to keep us up-to-date on its progress. I >would certainly be a regular visitor, and I don't doubt that >many others here would be equally interested. I'd love to >see a log/diary type thing, and some pictures, and maybe a >few hints about what ingredients I would need to mix >together to make a time machine for myself. How about it, >Lars? Show us a sign, something we can believe in. > Give me some time... I want to try out this machine myself first. Nothing much to log or tell about. Just various components and wires that has to be ordered and put together on a correct way. When I 100% believe in this myself, that is if the experiment succeed will I let you know how you can build it. So don't make up your mind on this just yet, I don't want tell the whole world how can make a time machine that doesn't work. When I believe in it myself, can I give you something to believe in. But note this. If this experiment is a success, that some people here are convinced it isn't. God knows why.... Then you might travel in space and time. Everyone that has given this some thought also realize that when you can travel in time is there also a possibility that you can also change time. That makes this a delicate matter that should be handled with care. Question remains if everyone should have the ability to change the past, if it is possible... I haven't tried to convince anyone that physical time travel is possible, I have just said that I'm building a time machine. Some people think that it is the same as being insane... I just find it an interesting concept that needs to be investigated. Later, Lars ###### Message-ID: <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:50:34 +1000 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.43 X-Trace: 27 Aug 1998 23:01:02 +1000, 203.18.28.43 Lines: 30 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!uunet!uunet!in1.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.43 Hi Lars. > Give me some time... > I want to try out this machine myself first. > Nothing much to log or tell about. Just various components and > wires that has to be ordered and put together on a correct > way. When I 100% believe in this myself, that is if the > experiment succeed will I let you know how you can build > it. So don't make up your mind on this just yet, I don't want > tell the whole world how can make a time machine > that doesn't work. Just wondering .... are you modifying the plans you got somehow? Just that, well, really, anyone who would like to build a machine like this could surely find the plans on the 'net couldn't they? Didn't you get the plans off the 'net anyhow? Just wondering why suddenly you seem to think not everyone who asks should receive. :-) I understand what you are saying, the right tool in the wrong hands and such, but the question asked of you was for more information and you are withholding. :-) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:57:33 +0200 Lines: 40 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p25.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p25.telia.com Message-ID: <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p25.telia.com Craig wrote in message <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message>... > >Just wondering .... are you modifying the plans you got somehow? Just >that, well, really, anyone who would like to build a machine like this >could surely find the plans on the 'net couldn't they? Didn't you get >the plans off the 'net anyhow? Just wondering why suddenly you seem to >think not everyone who asks should receive. :-) I understand what you >are saying, the right tool in the wrong hands and such, but the question >asked of you was for more information and you are withholding. :-) > Yes. The plans I've got is modified. In a way that makes it possible to travel physically in time and space without the use of grid points.... Grid points are not found everywhere, and it is said that there is both negative and positive grid points... But you can also make your own grid point, but that will take some time. Almost like recharging crystals. It takes some time.... The device I got isn't dependent on electricity. It can be used everywhere, not just over grid points..... Take Steven Gibbs Hyper dimensional Resonator for example. It use 110 V AC 60 Hz. Not very practical. And it had be used over a grid point. So you almost need to bring a car along. If we just assume that this device will work for a second, then you will probably realize that it is an extremely dangerous tool in the wrong hands. Not to mention if it is possible to change the past.... But I want to express that I was just open to the possibility that something like physical time travel was possible until I came in contact with someone that has done it. I then decided to take it one step further and build a device for myself.... Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.... Take care, Lars ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: 27 Aug 1998 23:58:10 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) writes: > > belabour the point anymore, but what you think was a "small mistake" > demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding in what electricity is all > about. Yes. About as fundamental as confusing speed and weight in mechanics. > and non-science. Anybody who claims that there is "weird", > "alternative" or "esoteric" science that is different than normal > science doesn't understand what science is. Science doesn't need the > web. Science can stand upon its own principles. > As for "new" science, i think you might mean new ideas that science is > tackling. If that's the case, i can accept that, but don't confuse > the meanings. Thanks cam for stating it so clearly. > Do you mean "out of 5 billion people on earth having dreams every > night, once in a while their dreams match some future event, but they > only realize it in retrospect", then I would think it happens. Hey, > you can't beat random chances. Hmmm. Question: What about those that dream about something and immediately after the dream know* that that was an precognitive dream and then it does happen later? * from recognizing the "intense**" feeling that precognition is accompisched by (when you have done it a few times you notice and later recognize the feeling). ** I lack an better term to describe it. > >Do you deny that with enough control over your Lucid Dreams can you also > >travel in time? > > There is no evidence to support this. There are only people that > believe they have. If you have contrasting scientific evidence, we're > _still_ waiting for citations. Having done something and having > believed you've done something are two different things. I knew a kid > that believed he was born on Mars. Full on the point. Particularly as he is claiming bodily time travel, while most LDers and OOBEers only are talking of spirit t t. > Therefore, you have not backed up your assertations. This, combined > with you seriously believing you are building a time machine from > plans you bought off some guy on the internet, is quickly accelerating > you to "usenet kook" status. Some would claim you're already there. Just 2 days ago I came to the conclusion that we have got here an second EGC* in the making. Seems I am not the only one to think this. * Earl Gordon Curley, remote viewer, skeptics bait, famous alt.oob, alt.paranormal, alt.art-bell kook and flamer; even got own group alt.earl-curley for this. Died a few months ago (just before Lars came). -- home: neil@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~neil/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** ###### From: Zac Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:00:13 -0700 Organization: none Lines: 60 Message-ID: <35E60F2D.18E5@geocities.com> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> Reply-To: psycho_dude@geocities.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ple-ca11-08.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 27 8:50:03 PM CDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news Neil Franklin wrote: > > 717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) writes: > > > > belabour the point anymore, but what you think was a "small mistake" > > demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding in what electricity is all > > about. > > Yes. About as fundamental as confusing speed and weight in mechanics. > > > and non-science. Anybody who claims that there is "weird", > > "alternative" or "esoteric" science that is different than normal > > science doesn't understand what science is. Science doesn't need the > > web. Science can stand upon its own principles. > > As for "new" science, i think you might mean new ideas that science is > > tackling. If that's the case, i can accept that, but don't confuse > > the meanings. > > Thanks cam for stating it so clearly. > > > Do you mean "out of 5 billion people on earth having dreams every > > night, once in a while their dreams match some future event, but they > > only realize it in retrospect", then I would think it happens. Hey, > > you can't beat random chances. > > Hmmm. Question: What about those that dream about something and > immediately after the dream know* that that was an precognitive dream > and then it does happen later? > > * from recognizing the "intense**" feeling that precognition is > accompisched by (when you have done it a few times you notice and > later recognize the feeling). > > ** I lack an better term to describe it. > I know what you mean, I don't really know how to describe it either. I usually write down all of my dreams that I think are precognitive down in as much detail as I can and then I come back later and comment on if it came true or not. So far, I would estimate that about two thirds of the dreams I have had that I think are precognitive have come true, the others either were not precognitive or else they haven't happened yet. Frustrating thing is that I never have precognitive dreams about something I want to know, it's usually about something I could give a shit less about. Once I had a dream that the batteries in my walkman were going to run out while I was on the bus on the way home from school the next day. I packed a spare set of batteries, and I was glad I did because about halfway home my walkman went dead. > -- > home: neil@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~neil/ > work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ > *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** -- -Zac I have great faith in fools, self-confidence my friends call it. --Edgar Allen Poe ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:07:43 +0200 Lines: 47 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p5.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p5.telia.com Message-ID: <35e6abd6.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p5.telia.com Neil Franklin wrote in message ... > >> >Do you deny that with enough control over your Lucid Dreams can you also >> >travel in time? >> >> There is no evidence to support this. There are only people that >> believe they have. If you have contrasting scientific evidence, we're >> _still_ waiting for citations. Having done something and having >> believed you've done something are two different things. I knew a kid >> that believed he was born on Mars. > >Full on the point. Particularly as he is claiming bodily time travel, >while most LDers and OOBEers only are talking of spirit t t. > Wrong. We are discussing Time Travel in Lucid Dreams here. I.E. Spiritual time travel.... I'm not claiming physical time travel to be a proven fact. I have merely stated that I'm building a time machine... I do that because I BELIEVE physical time travel to be possible of various reasons... But I have said that scientific studies have been done on precognitive have been done. Studies by Dean Radin suggest that it is possible. But the specific reports have I not yet in my possession... Therefore have I not been able to satisfy Cam's demand for citations... > >* Earl Gordon Curley, remote viewer, skeptics bait, famous alt.oob, >alt.paranormal, alt.art-bell kook and flamer; even got own group >alt.earl-curley for this. Died a few months ago (just before Lars came). > Wrong again. He died shortly after I found this newsgroup.... I had the pleasure to discuss a few things with him.... I remember he said that you can't have an OBE without vibrations... Kindest regards, Lars ###### Message-ID: <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:57:33 +1000 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.48 X-Trace: 28 Aug 1998 10:01:13 +1000, 203.18.28.48 Lines: 76 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!uunet!uunet!in1.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.48 Lars Rune Foleide wrote: > > Craig wrote in message <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message>... > > > >Just wondering .... are you modifying the plans you got somehow? Just > >that, well, really, anyone who would like to build a machine like this > >could surely find the plans on the 'net couldn't they? Didn't you get > >the plans off the 'net anyhow? Just wondering why suddenly you seem to > >think not everyone who asks should receive. :-) I understand what you > >are saying, the right tool in the wrong hands and such, but the question > >asked of you was for more information and you are withholding. :-) > > > > Yes. The plans I've got is modified. In a way that makes it possible > to travel physically in time and space without the use of grid points.... > Grid points are not found everywhere, and it is said that there is > both negative and positive grid points... Hmmm, I'll retype what I asked I think. ;-) Are **YOU** modifying the plans Lars. :-) > But you can also make your own grid point, but that will take some > time. Almost like recharging crystals. It takes some time.... > The device I got isn't dependent on electricity. It can be used > everywhere, not just over grid points..... Now that is interesting Lars. Just what is it that powers your device? Does it gain power from the person using it somehow? I can remember you saying at some stage that to travel in time, you need a lot of energy. I think you were speaking of orgone energy, is this used somehow, and if so, how do you produce it? :-) > Take Steven Gibbs Hyper dimensional Resonator for example. > It use 110 V AC 60 Hz. Not very practical. And it had be used > over a grid point. So you almost need to bring a car along. > > If we just assume that this device will work for a second, then you > will probably realize that it is an extremely dangerous tool > in the wrong hands. Not to mention if it is possible to change > the past.... Hmmm, is there an echo in here? I think I already stated that a device as such as the one you are making would do harm in the wrong hands. > But I want to express that I was just open to the possibility that > something like physical time travel was possible until I came > in contact with someone that has done it. I then decided to > take it one step further and build a device for myself.... > Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.... Nothing at all wrong with being curious is there Lars. :-) Testing things for yourself is the best way to know something sometimes. :-) But remember the saying ... curiosity killed the cat. :-) Be careful. But you still danced around the main question that I asked of you Lars. Why all of a sudden do you want to keep this to yourself, when, for the last few weeks you have been posting all the info and URL's on time travel devices that you could? Leon Robbins asked you some very positive and legitimate questions. He seems genuinely inquisitive. But, from what I read of your reply, you are not really giving the information asked of you. What if you had asked the same questions a few weeks ago and everyone told you what you said to Leon? You would be so bitterly disappointed wouldn't you? How would you know what you know now. Please Lars, for the sake of the people that really believe in what you are doing, don't play God. :-) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message> Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:55:01 +0200 Lines: 86 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p5.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t7o204p5.telia.com Message-ID: <35e6a8dd.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t7o204p5.telia.com Craig wrote in message <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message>... > >> Yes. The plans I've got is modified. In a way that makes it possible >> to travel physically in time and space without the use of grid points.... >> Grid points are not found everywhere, and it is said that there is >> both negative and positive grid points... > >Hmmm, I'll retype what I asked I think. ;-) Are **YOU** modifying the >plans Lars. :-) > No. The modified plans I got are so good that there would not be much point in modifying them any more. When a device works so good, then there is little or no point in modifying it... That would most likely cause it to work less good.... When I know more about the nature of Orgone energy can I maybe modify it a little, but I doubt it will do much good.... >> But you can also make your own grid point, but that will take some >> time. Almost like recharging crystals. It takes some time.... >> The device I got isn't dependent on electricity. It can be used >> everywhere, not just over grid points..... > >Now that is interesting Lars. Just what is it that powers your device? >Does it gain power from the person using it somehow? I can remember you >saying at some stage that to travel in time, you need a lot of energy. I >think you were speaking of orgone energy, is this used somehow, and if >so, how do you produce it? :-) - Orgone energy..... - Not much, you are mostly just telling what the machine to do... - Well, you need a strong orgone field... - Time machines use crystals or magnets that send out orgone energy... > >Hmmm, is there an echo in here? I think I already stated that a device >as such as the one you are making would do harm in the wrong hands. Can't be said enough... :) > >> But I want to express that I was just open to the possibility that >> something like physical time travel was possible until I came >> in contact with someone that has done it. I then decided to >> take it one step further and build a device for myself.... >> Nothing wrong with that if you ask me.... > >Nothing at all wrong with being curious is there Lars. :-) Testing >things for yourself is the best way to know something sometimes. :-) But >remember the saying ... curiosity killed the cat. :-) Be careful. But >you still danced around the main question that I asked of you Lars. Why >all of a sudden do you want to keep this to yourself, when, for the last >few weeks you have been posting all the info and URL's on time travel >devices that you could? Leon Robbins asked you some very positive and >legitimate questions. He seems genuinely inquisitive. But, from what I >read of your reply, you are not really giving the information asked of >you. What if you had asked the same questions a few weeks ago and >everyone told you what you said to Leon? You would be so bitterly >disappointed wouldn't you? How would you know what you know now. Please >Lars, for the sake of the people that really believe in what you are >doing, don't play God. :-) > The devices you can find on the web ain't that powerful... I have also been told that time travel is dangerous... And a few of those people interested and experimenting with time travel is reported missing... But I don't all of the sudden want to hold this device to myself. If I had been eager to share it with the whole world would you have heard about it several weeks ago. I'm not saying this device will work, because I haven't tried it myself. But I DO believe it will work. I hope it will work, and I certainly need it to work. I fighting against the time here and need a tool... :) I will not tell the whole world about how to design this device until I try it out myself and do a few tests with it. I have never wanted to do so, and I'm not changing my mind on that issue. So have patience if you are interested.... Later, Lars ###### From: "Leon_Robbins" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:18:21 +0100 Organization: Scotland-On-Line Lines: 107 Message-ID: <6s6ol6$cuf$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: e2c6p25.scotland.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2110.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!btnet-peer!btnet!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.sol.co.uk!not-for-mail Craig wrote in message <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message>... 8>< SNIP ><8 >Nothing at all wrong with being curious is there Lars. :-) Testing >things for yourself is the best way to know something sometimes. :-) But >remember the saying ... curiosity killed the cat. :-) Be careful. But >you still danced around the main question that I asked of you Lars. Why >all of a sudden do you want to keep this to yourself, when, for the last >few weeks you have been posting all the info and URL's on time travel >devices that you could? Leon Robbins asked you some very positive and >legitimate questions. He seems genuinely inquisitive. But, from what I >read of your reply, you are not really giving the information asked of >you. What if you had asked the same questions a few weeks ago and >everyone told you what you said to Leon? You would be so bitterly >disappointed wouldn't you? How would you know what you know now. Please >Lars, for the sake of the people that really believe in what you are >doing, don't play God. :-) > >All the best >Craig Craig, bitter disappointment is too pale a term to describe what I am feeling right now. Pure, energy-sapping despair? Hmm, sort of. Weltschmertz? A little closer, but it's still not quite there. I am so disheartened that I don't feel capable of summoning the correct words to describe the state of my mind and soul. I did so want to learn how to build a time machine, and not out of idle curiosity. I need a time machine for the most valid, worthy reason there is: to save the life of a loved one. Buckminster, my dog, has cancer. Six weeks ago, I finally admitted to myself that the lump on his ear really was growing, and so I took him to the vet. She diagnosed melanoma, and performed a biopsy on the tumour, which was shown to be malignant, and which X-rays later confirmed had metastasised, spreading throughout my poor dog's body. She says she holds very little hope that he will survive beyond Christmas of this year. Buckminster is nine years old now, but when he was just two, I clearly remember taking him to a party held for my niece, Melanie, who was celebrating her fourth birthday. After her brattish friends had left clutching their goody bags and lumps of cake, I remained with other family members to sing the songs of our fisherman ancestors, songs which would lift the heart even of the downtrodden sidekick half of a New York homicide cop duo. As we were coming to the mood-transforming bridge of "The Ballad of Ivor, Porthmadog Shrimp-trawler, Seventh Son of Shadwell", Melanie appeared out of nowhere wielding a pair of pinking scissors, and had at Buckminster with them, snarling psychotically. Snippy-snap! snicker-snack! went the vorpal blades, and before I could wrestle her to the ground she had put a two-inch-long cut into my hound's right ear. The cut was sutured neatly later that night, and it appeared to have healed up well... But the tumour on Buckminster's ear is at the very position of the old cut, and the veterinarian agrees with me that some cellular aberration must have occurred around the area of the healing granulation tissue, resulting so many years later in this vile lump. My intention, once I have built my time machine, is to travel back to that fateful day seven years ago and be ready to punch Melanie out of the way as soon as she enters with the pinking shears, thus preventing her from making the cut that eventually caused the cancer in Buckminster's ear. Lars -- PLEASE, I need to know how to make a time machine: my dog is the most important thing in my life. Help me save the one thing in this world that I hold truly dear. Three days ago I went to my local newsagent and bought an exercise book. On its cover I wrote "On the Construction of a Time Machine Which I Will Use to Save My Dog's Life". On the first page I wrote "Tuesday 25th August 1998. Before Christmas I must build a time machine in which I will travel back to 1991 and prevent Bucky from developing cancer. I feel confident that I will receive help in this matter from one Lars Rune Foleide, a fellow Internet academic and seeker-after-truth. Please, God, give me speed in my quest of mercy." With the deepest gut-wrenching sorrow I now fear that that may have been the last entry I will ever make in my exercise book. -- Leon_Robbins To reply to me by e-mail, remove the ampersands from: Leon-news@d&en.pres&tel.co.uk ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message> <6s6ol6$cuf$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:21:15 +0200 Lines: 83 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p53.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p53.telia.com Message-ID: <35e80e90.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.skynet.be!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p53.telia.com Leon_Robbins wrote in message <6s6ol6$cuf$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk>... > >My intention, once I have built my time machine, is to >travel back to that fateful day seven years ago and be ready >to punch Melanie out of the way as soon as she enters with >the pinking shears, thus preventing her from making the cut >that eventually caused the cancer in Buckminster's ear. >Lars -- PLEASE, I need to know how to make a time machine: >my dog is the most important thing in my life. Help me save >the one thing in this world that I hold truly dear. > >Three days ago I went to my local newsagent and bought an >exercise book. On its cover I wrote "On the Construction of >a Time Machine Which I Will Use to Save My Dog's Life". On >the first page I wrote "Tuesday 25th August 1998. Before >Christmas I must build a time machine in which I will travel >back to 1991 and prevent Bucky from developing cancer. I >feel confident that I will receive help in this matter from >one Lars Rune Foleide, a fellow Internet academic and >seeker-after-truth. Please, God, give me speed in my quest >of mercy." With the deepest gut-wrenching sorrow I now fear >that that may have been the last entry I will ever make in >my exercise book. > Okay Leon. I understand your problem. But let us take a look at this objectively..... You are assuming that you can change the past with a time machine. Let's just say that it is possible. That will mean that you can't just travel back 7 years, prevent what happened to your dog and when you come back will your dog not have cancer and nothing else will be changed. It is not that easy. Let's just think logically about this. You have a time machine. And travel 7 years back to the place and time your dog got cut in the ear... You will most likely see yourself, making your past self curious as to how the hell is that. That alone will probably radically change your life. But even if you manage to prevent your dog from that accident without being seen by yourself will that dog not being cut, and maybe not develop cancer. But the second you make such a change in the past will also your future life be changed. You will not be sending me this request for a time machine, and I will not be responding to this message. Meaning that if you do what you are planing to do will you also change my past, not only yours. You might also be changing the past of a whole lot of other people here.... But that is not the worst part. You will not be sending this request. You will not get a time machine and you will not travel back in time to prevent your dog's accident. Meaning that you will not be able to travel back to the present and continue living your life happily with a healthy dog. You will just find a time clone of yourself. The second you decide to make the smallest change to your own past will you most likely make a clone of yourself. Your dog will maybe be able to live a few more years, but what will you do? Will to travel back in time and continue your life with your twin brother that maybe have radically changed during those 7 years? Are you willing to do all this? It is no point making anyone else do it for you either. They will also time clone themselves. Something else that is possible it Remote Viewing combined with Telekinesis... There was one guy on one of the psionics mailing list I'm on that told about once he did some remote viewing and also some telekinesis at the desired location. He was pissed of on some guy for some reason... But doing something like that will be extremely dangerous. And you will also change my past and several other people... (Not just me are reading and responding to this...) (Note that most of what I have said are just speculation...) Sincerely, Lars ###### From: "Leon_Robbins" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:02:19 +0100 Organization: Scotland-On-Line Lines: 41 Message-ID: <6sc40a$n4s$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message> <6s6ol6$cuf$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e80e90.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: e1c2p37.scotland.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2110.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!194.72.7.126!btnet-peer!btnet!peer.news.th.u-net.net!u-net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.sol.co.uk!not-for-mail Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35e80e90.0@d2o204.telia.com>... 8>< SNIP ><8 >Okay Leon. I understand your problem. But let us take a look >at this objectively..... > >You are assuming that you can change the past with a time >machine. Let's just say that it is possible. >That will mean that you can't just travel back 7 years, >prevent what happened to your dog and when you come back >will your dog not have cancer and nothing else will be changed. > >It is not that easy. Let's just think logically about this. 8>< SNIP ><8 Lars, You're right, of course. I was just being silly and over-emotional. I normally pride myself on taking a cold, rational, scientific approach to matters such as this, but in this case I'm afraid my head just turned into a pile of fudge. (Can you understand what that's like?) I let my worries about my dog's health overwhelm my better, calmer self. Can you forgive me? -- Leon_Robbins P.S. I still haven't received your plans for the time machine. When are you going to send them? Did you forget, or did your email just get lost? To reply to me by e-mail, remove the ampersands from: Leon-news@d&en.pres&tel.co.uk ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message> <6s6ol6$cuf$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e80e90.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6sc40a$n4s$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:30:49 +0200 Lines: 66 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p36.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p36.telia.com Message-ID: <35e9a89d.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!newsfeed2.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p36.telia.com Leon_Robbins wrote in message <6sc40a$n4s$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk>... > >Lars, > >You're right, of course. I was just being silly and >over-emotional. I normally pride myself on taking a cold, >rational, scientific approach to matters such as this, but >in this case I'm afraid my head just turned into a pile of >fudge. (Can you understand what that's like?) I let my >worries about my dog's health overwhelm my better, calmer >self. Can you forgive me? > No worries.... But I think I have found a way to let the dog stay a little longer with you.... (In fact.... for ever...) Again, let's assume that you might change the past. I have brought up time cloning earlier, and just that might be the key here. I think there are two ways of travel in time, one is rewinding time and one is travelling back in time. If you are travelling back in time will you find yourself and a time clone of yourself will be created. Meaning that all of the sudden are there two of you. Exact same copy. Only that if you traveled 5 minutes back, would the other clone of yourself be 5 minutes older.... So, it might be possible to travel 7 years back, before your dog got that cut and time clone your dog and bring back a copy of your dog back to the present. If done carefully can you avoid making changes to the past and you will have a dog that will not develop cancer.... The only problem is that you will all of the sudden have two dogs... >P.S. I still haven't received your plans for the time >machine. When are you going to send them? Did you forget, or >did your email just get lost? > Upset people that are about to lose a loved one, and are willing to do just about anything should not have such a powerful tool in their possession. But Leon. There is no hurry. This isn't something that has to be done within 24 hours... You can, if physical time travel is possible, bring back your dog anytime. I can even do it for you, if this machine works...time will show. There is only one problem that needs to be overcome. To time clone something then you must send that back in time. And you must meet yourself. And thereby also change the past. But if you travel back with your dog will not only dog be time clone, but also yourself. So you need to only send the dog back in time. Not sure how that can be done just yet. So Leon. You need to clam down, and a few problems need to be sorted out. But there is no hurry. Not at all.... (Note that all I have said above are just speculation..) Take care, Lars ###### Message-ID: <35E9F2F7.5CB8AAAF@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:48:55 +1000 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Lars' time machine (Was "Re: Dreaming FAQ") References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> <35e42605.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6s1kmf$ai3$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> <35e47271.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E52BEA.9704350C@the.end.of.the.message> <35e57415.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message> <6s6ol6$cuf$1@phys-ma.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.47 X-Trace: 31 Aug 1998 12:42:01 +1000, 203.18.28.47 Lines: 140 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.shore.net!uunet!uunet!in1.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.47 Hi Leon. I can understand that you would be utterly disappointed Leon, knowing maybe how this cancer has come to be and all, but how would you expect to know how to feel the love you feel if every time something like this was going to happen you could just turn back time and make it disappear? I think this is the wrong way to go about things. I know this sounds harsh, especially if you are in the position you are in, but you have to understand that we need to go through death as a part of learning. At any rate, I don't think the cut could be positively confirmed to have caused the cancer, so, what if you did go back and change the incident in 'your' favour and still the cancer formed! You would learn nothing of love from being so obsessed in the fact that you were worrying about how 'you' were going to feel because of the loss of you faithful friend. And anyway, how would you then cope, losing a loved pet to old age, when the rest of the times you were able to do something about it, now you would have to face the final curtain without a way to prolong it. I dunno, I guess I just feel that even if we were able to physically travel in time and change thing, we shouldn't. We should merely be observers. Let life run it's natural course and be glad for the things and times that have happened to us along the way. All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au -- Leon_Robbins wrote: > > Craig wrote in message > <35E5D64D.64677041@the.end.of.the.message>... > > 8>< SNIP ><8 > > >Nothing at all wrong with being curious is there Lars. :-) > Testing > >things for yourself is the best way to know something > sometimes. :-) But > >remember the saying ... curiosity killed the cat. :-) Be > careful. But > >you still danced around the main question that I asked of > you Lars. Why > >all of a sudden do you want to keep this to yourself, when, > for the last > >few weeks you have been posting all the info and URL's on > time travel > >devices that you could? Leon Robbins asked you some very > positive and > >legitimate questions. He seems genuinely inquisitive. But, > from what I > >read of your reply, you are not really giving the > information asked of > >you. What if you had asked the same questions a few weeks > ago and > >everyone told you what you said to Leon? You would be so > bitterly > >disappointed wouldn't you? How would you know what you know > now. Please > >Lars, for the sake of the people that really believe in > what you are > >doing, don't play God. :-) > > > >All the best > >Craig > > Craig, bitter disappointment is too pale a term to describe > what I am feeling right now. Pure, energy-sapping despair? > Hmm, sort of. Weltschmertz? A little closer, but it's still > not quite there. I am so disheartened that I don't feel > capable of summoning the correct words to describe the state > of my mind and soul. I did so want to learn how to build a > time machine, and not out of idle curiosity. I need a time > machine for the most valid, worthy reason there is: to save > the life of a loved one. > > Buckminster, my dog, has cancer. Six weeks ago, I finally > admitted to myself that the lump on his ear really was > growing, and so I took him to the vet. She diagnosed > melanoma, and performed a biopsy on the tumour, > which was shown to be malignant, and which X-rays later > confirmed had metastasised, spreading throughout my poor > dog's body. She says she holds very little hope that he will > survive beyond Christmas of this year. Buckminster is nine > years old now, but when he was just two, I clearly remember > taking him to a party held for my niece, Melanie, who was > celebrating her fourth birthday. After her brattish friends > had left clutching their goody bags and lumps of cake, I > remained with other family members to sing the songs of our > fisherman ancestors, songs which would lift the heart even > of the downtrodden sidekick half of a New York homicide cop > duo. As we were coming to the mood-transforming bridge of > "The Ballad of Ivor, Porthmadog Shrimp-trawler, Seventh Son > of Shadwell", Melanie appeared out of nowhere wielding a > pair of pinking scissors, and had at Buckminster with them, > snarling psychotically. Snippy-snap! snicker-snack! went the > vorpal blades, and before I could wrestle her to the ground > she had put a two-inch-long cut into my hound's right ear. > The cut was sutured neatly later that night, and it appeared > to have healed up well... But the tumour on Buckminster's > ear is at the very position of the old cut, and the > veterinarian agrees with me that some cellular aberration > must have occurred around the area of the healing > granulation tissue, resulting so many years later in this > vile lump. > > My intention, once I have built my time machine, is to > travel back to that fateful day seven years ago and be ready > to punch Melanie out of the way as soon as she enters with > the pinking shears, thus preventing her from making the cut > that eventually caused the cancer in Buckminster's ear. > Lars -- PLEASE, I need to know how to make a time machine: > my dog is the most important thing in my life. Help me save > the one thing in this world that I hold truly dear. > > Three days ago I went to my local newsagent and bought an > exercise book. On its cover I wrote "On the Construction of > a Time Machine Which I Will Use to Save My Dog's Life". On > the first page I wrote "Tuesday 25th August 1998. Before > Christmas I must build a time machine in which I will travel > back to 1991 and prevent Bucky from developing cancer. I > feel confident that I will receive help in this matter from > one Lars Rune Foleide, a fellow Internet academic and > seeker-after-truth. Please, God, give me speed in my quest > of mercy." With the deepest gut-wrenching sorrow I now fear > that that may have been the last entry I will ever make in > my exercise book. > > -- > Leon_Robbins > > To reply to me by e-mail, remove the ampersands from: > Leon-news@d&en.pres&tel.co.uk ###### From: "claire" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: 28 Aug 1998 13:22:37 GMT Organization: http://www.supernews.com, The World's Usenet: Discussions Start Here Lines: 96 Message-ID: <01bdd29f$1e295460$31e555c6@default> References: <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rmpf1$1dvu$1@news.gate.net> <35df196a.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rpbmu$9b2$1@news1.alltel.net> <35e04733.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6rprtj$7kq$1@news.gate.net> <35e0a2df.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35e19576.2282745@nntpserver.swip.net> <35e1a7c8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35E1CE7D.4FCBADD3@pop.slkc.uswest.net> <35e1f090.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35ea4943.6835082@news.melbpc.org.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.85.229.49 X-Trace: 904310557 KESTV.NODE531C655C usenet80.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail John Fitzsimons wrote in article <35ea4943.6835082@news.melbpc.org.au>... > On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:59:31 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" > wrote: > > < snip > > > >Some people seems to be under the impression that if a time machine > >exist, then everyone would be using it by now. > > < snip > > > If one is talking about being aware of other times then one doesn't > need a "machine". Plenty of people are aware of past/future situations > without using machines. > Hey, talking about time machines and metaphysics, I just saw a show last night on the History channel on the lost city of Shangri-la (they gave it another name, Shambala? I forget). Anyway, they were trying to figure out whether the city actually existed or was some sort of metaphysical location that the monks got to while OOB'ing. They seemed to trace this somehow to a Tibetan ceremony of what one English professor called the "Time Machine Buddha" ceremony. I was laughing my head off when he said "Time Machine Buddha" because I thought he meant somehow this mandala created as part of the ceremony was a "Time Machine" and meditating on it would take you to Shambala. But then, he claimed time was a tool in Buddhist philosophy that spit out enlightened beings. Somehow, that made sense and I realized he was being metaphorical not literal. Anyway, the idea is that this ceremony elevates people's consciousness to a level where they can enter Shambala. Very interesting show, although the Dalai Lama claimed that it didn't matter if Shambala existed or not, he was too busy with the problems of this world to be looking for Shambala. That, oddly enough, doesn't explain why this once a decade? ceremony is now being done repeatedly and quite often. The ceremony was named something chakra. And the English professor thought that meant Wheel of Time or Time Machine as a wheel is a tool used by man, so wheel of time must mean "time machine." That's what had me ROTFL, I think. He seemed oblvious the the fact that chakra also means a metaphysical point of energy on the body which are also called "wheels" because of how they supposedly look. Anyway, back to the time machine thread, I suspect the Buddhist's version of a time machine in metaphysical terms is an out-of-body experience aimed at traveling through time. No machine needed. Could be past life or just plain old time jumping, who knows? The really funny thing about this show was the fact that I had a curious dream not long ago. In it, I was a woman going up this very wobbly cobblestone walkway on my way to a pilgrammage at some large storied building. Someone was with me, trying to dissaude me from going because apparently I was a higher class citizen and going to this place meant I would have to humiliate myself and do what I was told to do and there were no guarantees I would achieve my goal. One of the sure things would be that I would have to cut my hair because women were not allowed in such places, and I don't know who I thought I was but I was dreaming if I thought I would be allowed in as a woman (so, my companion said). I went anyway, don't know why. I had very fine glossy black hair that I went into a local shop and had it cut drastically. I was very pained to see my hair fall away but I was determined to get an "interview" with the personnage who's house I was going to. Anyway, I get to this place and it is "FREEZING cold" and there are all manner of pitiful people there. All I can sense in the dream is this bone-chilling cold that seems to permeate everything. Anyway, all of us are standing outside this building praying and hoping the door to this place will open, because when it does a few are chosen to walk inside and have an audience. Who is chosen is up to the monks who come out and no one seems to have any idea how people are chosen. Before this, I had gone to a store where people were bargaining over drinks and I got a cup of something warm to drink. I was shown a picture of someone who was being "hunted" and who had a large reward on their heads but I was not interested. There was some sort of gambling going on with odd coins. Anyway, I was being laughed at for going to this place and I was doubting myself but I picked up a few things and returned outside. I must have picked up a bowl because all of a sudden I had a bowl in my hand and it was three days later and I was still standing in line in a group of pilgrims as we waited to see what would be fed us. It was really strange. No one understood why the monks did what they did. To some they would put good things in their bowl to others, like me, I got maggots. I looked around at the all the miserable people and was absolutely delirious with hunger, tired and so numb from cold that I was beginning to think my companion had been right. "I could be here for weeks," I muttered to myself and another person heard me. "You could be here for months," they replied and pointed to a cripple man who had one leg a walking stick and little clothing. "He's been here for months and they won't let him in. But, where does he have to go? He is a beggar no matter what." That's when I wondered about my own sanity, looking at my bowl full of maggots and grieving over my lost hair and my lack of shame. Something was very important to me inside those walls and I picked up the maggots to eat them. I woke up and never found out whether I made it inside or not, but after seeing those pictures of the Pothalla and the grey cobblestone streets leading up to it on tv, who knows? I just might have. ;-) Claire ###### From: "Cam Mayor" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.dreams,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Dreaming FAQ Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:34:46 -0500 Organization: MTS Internet Services Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6sp1bt$r3j$1@news1.mts.net> References: <6r43r1$2of$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <35fd1bbb.140854278@news.ican.net> <35dd99c1.0@d2o204.telia.com> <3606d611.188563923@news.ican.net> <35de091b.0@d2o204.telia.com> <35f48239.363733438@news.ican.net> <35e32c38.0@d2o204.telia.com> <36294c7c.546612162@news.ican.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.200.202.101 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.mbnet.mb.ca!news-in.mts.net!news.mts.net!not-for-mail Neil Franklin wrote in message ... >717323666@ican.net (cam - remove 666 for nospam) writes: > >> Do you mean "out of 5 billion people on earth having dreams every >> night, once in a while their dreams match some future event, but they >> only realize it in retrospect", then I would think it happens. Hey, >> you can't beat random chances. > >Hmmm. Question: What about those that dream about something and >immediately after the dream know* that that was an precognitive dream >and then it does happen later? I would classify this differently. there is a difference between having a dream, and after the dream events play out deciding it was precognitive and having a dream, saying "this was precognitive" and THEN having the dream events play out. However, even though they are different cases, they are both prone to happen just from the sheer number of people on earth having dreams every night. That is, it's not necessarily "real" precognition, but merely statistical probability. (this is back to the stock scam i mentioned earlier) It doesn't mean that dreams _cannot_ be precognitive, only that to be certain they are, some kind of controlled experiment would have to happen. (because otherwise we wouldn't know how many people wake up thinking "I have had a precognitive dream", but the events never play out) >* from recognizing the "intense**" feeling that precognition is >accompisched by (when you have done it a few times you notice and >later recognize the feeling). > >** I lack an better term to describe it. get it all the time. i understand. cheers, cam