From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 12 Aug 1998 04:50:26 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 62 Message-ID: <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh42-11.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 11 11:50:26 PM CDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!ix.netcom.com!news I'm stuck in this newsgroup and post to no other. I'm sorry for being slightly off topic here, but there is a bit of this post that matches with this group. I'm certain there are Christians who read this group. I believe that they read this group because they are curious of the mystical things that tend to be related to Christianity. Well... I'm curious too. I wouldn't call myself a 'Non-Christian' - but I wouldn't call myself a 'born-again Christian'. I feel that I'm somewhat familiar with the teachings of Jesus. But I have a few questions regarding the faith itself. I don't mean to offend anyone with my questions. This is not a debate. All I'm looking for is some stimulating conversation on the particular subject I herein bring up. It is said that Jesus died for our sins... But, according to the Bible - he didn't really die. He was alive the whole time - and he knew he wouldn't die because he had other things to do after his body quit. Last I heard, he had a fully functional body (albeit, with a few holes in it) that went up into the sky and disappeared. He said he would come back... So what is this about him dying? He didn't die. He knew he wouldn't. So what is the big sacrifice? God sacrificed his only son so that we might have eternal life? This really makes no sense to me - especially since God knew his son would not die. From what I've been taught - he left his body, went to pull a bunch of souls from that which is known as death and brought them to a place he built for them, then re-entered his body again to show us that there is no death. Why does Christianity demand that we accept the philosophy that God sacrificed his only son for our salvation? To me, God didn't sacrifice anything... Nor did Jesus - except for his pride - which was reconciled within a few short days. I understand that Christianity has produced some incredibly talented mystics. I even understand that suffering is important for focus. I just don't understand why the death of Jesus is such a big deal when he never actually died - and knew he wouldn't. But here is the key that I've found... Lucidity cannot be maintained without an unconditional acceptance and an expression of LOVE. I lose this insight very often (as many of you know) but I pick up on it again from time to time. There is a certain regular poster here who knows what I mean by losing control - as well as knowing the love that we should express, calmly, at every opportunity, in order to maintain balance (lucidity). Christianity is good. It's just that many Christians seem to be confused.... Bart ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 13 Aug 1998 04:03:26 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 156 Message-ID: <6qtoie$i4s@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh42-43.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 12 9:03:26 PM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news In <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> Craig writes: > >Bart Scott wrote: >> I'm stuck in this newsgroup and post to no other. I'm sorry for >>being slightly off topic here, but there is a bit of this post that >>matches with this group. >This was s'posed to be the start of a new thread .... right? Just >confused me a little. :-) Now, that would depend on whoever responds - eh? :-) >> I'm certain there are Christians who read this group. I believe >>that they read this group because they are curious of the mystical >>things that tend to be related to Christianity. >I used to be Christian, but since I found myself getting oob, i've >change my views on religion dramatically. I was always confused about >my religion anyway (catholic) but now I have a whole new outlook on >what I believe in. Are you aware that Catholocism has more mystics associated with it than any other branch of Christianity? Or for that matter - any other religion generally associated with western civilization? Don't change your religion just because of the hipocrites that may be involved with it. I have a very difficult time practicing what I preach. I credit my familiarity with Catholocism for my interest in the paranormal - specifically, OBE. Most other branches of Christianity seem to lean toward more subtle forms of the paranormal. Catholocism is INTENSE. Yet, Catholocism also seems to be very closely related to occultism - due to its major use of symbolism, highly focus prayer, rituals, idolotry, and worship of various spirits. Mary, for example, is basically considered a type of goddess in a hierarchy - in some cases even more powerfull than Jesus - since she is his mother and he must obey her... Saint Peter is also part of it as a gate keeper. There are others. Tends to be a bit confusing. >> It is said that Jesus died for our sins... But, according to the >>Bible - he didn't really die. He was alive the whole time - and he >>knew he wouldn't die because he had other things to do after his body >>quit. >Um, he was dead for three days wasn't he? I mean, he went through the >pain of death for all humanity. But, like you say, he knew what was >going to happen, so really, with that in mind, was it such a great >sacrifice to make? No doubt, he suffered heavily and his physical body was not moving around for 3 days - but he was still alive as a spiritual entity. His stage show was to prove to humanity that there is no such thing as death for those who understand his teachings. So, therefore, since he believed in his own teachings, he never died... >> Last I heard, he had a fully functional body (albeit, with a few >>holes in it) that went up into the sky and disappeared. He said he >>would come back... >> >> So what is this about him dying? He didn't die. He knew he >>wouldn't. So what is the big sacrifice? >Didn't he sacrifice his life, as a mere mortal Absolutely! And that is a very good point. He sacrificed mortality for immortality - that I accept. If this is the way Christianity means it, then it should be taught that way. As it is - I have, to date, heard very few teach it in this manner. Still... death, in this approach, is only symbolic. He made a choice to make a change. I've noted through the last 4 years that change resembles death - but life continues after change. Death as we see it at the grave is not the way it really is. Death only exists for those stuck with the ideal of mortality. Immortality, on the other hand, does not involve death - only change. >I mean, he came back three days later, rose >from the dead, but he had died right? he just came back to life for a >while to prove something. To prove that there is no such thing as death... So he never died. Death only exists for those who don't understand the functions of the teachings he related. > I would guess his sacrifice was that he would >no longer be able to lead the life he was leading on earth at the >time. Sort of like a small pop group who are good, and have a small >following. If they become really goo and really famous, they have lost >their own lives for a while, sort of. Not a good example. ;-) You are right - it's not a very good example ;-) But a fare example. Virtually every stage star gives up their personal life to express a greater life for the population of the world. Yet I would hardly compare Janis Joplin or Jim Morrison to Jesus - Although John Lennon has some minor similarities ;-) >>I >> just don't understand why the death of Jesus is such a big deal when >>he never actually died - and knew he wouldn't. >Actually. Did Jesus know what was going on at the time? Or did he >really think he was going to die? He prophesied his own death. Actually - he said he would not be with them for a little while. He never said he would actually die - not according to the scriptures. Death, for those who believe only in the mortal existance, is permanent. That which happened to Jesus was apparently not permanent. >And what of all the Christians BC? Where did >they think they went after death? I know the Egyptians believed in the >after life. There must have been some Christian Egyptians? Um... didn't Christianity actually start with Jesus? I mean... John the Baptist was the first person in the Bible that I can find that actually reads like a Christian before Jesus arrives on the scene - the rest where Jews. The present day Jew, as far as I understand (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) does not accept Jesus as Christians do. There is talk of Jesus travelling to Egypt or India during his youth to study and refine his understanding of reality - I am not totally convinced that this happened, but it wouldn't surprise me if any proof actually exists. According to the Bible, Jesus said, "In my Father's Kingdom, there are many mansions. I go now to prepare a place for you." To me this means he went to the inner planes to 'prepare' a place for those who call on him as a savior. Exploration of the inner worlds is not limited to this century or this newsgroup alone. There is a large percentage of people who know that the inner dimensions exist as a huge, barely explored reality. It is very confusing when one arrives there after the body quits. I believe that Jesus built a place for his followers to go to so they wouldn't be so totally lost in the confusion of the inner realms. >Would it not be enough to *believe* in something so much that you >blindly followed that belief with devotion? I mean, it's not just >Christians who attempt to follow a righteous path. Many other >religions are based on love and respect for fellow man and beast. First of all - I'm not pushing Christianity here. It's just that it is the most widely spread religion of the western hemisphere. I know there are other paths that lead in the same direction. It's said in two different ways in at least two different books of the Bible. 1. Those who are not against us are for us. 2. Those who are not for us are against us. So, basically - if you are not against the spreading of unconditional love, then you run a slim risk of being lost on the inner realms. On the other hand - if you are totally drawn up into self satisfaction, you run the greatest risk of getting tangled up in the mess beyond the physical. Those who travel within regularly know what a mess this can become without the dicipline of some form of spiritual direction. Bart ###### Message-ID: <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:29:18 +1000 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.50 X-Trace: 13 Aug 1998 09:00:06 +1000, 203.18.28.50 Lines: 114 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.50 Bart Scott wrote: > > I'm stuck in this newsgroup and post to no other. I'm sorry for being > slightly off topic here, but there is a bit of this post that matches > with this group. This was s'posed to be the start of a new thread .... right? Just confused me a little. :-) > I'm certain there are Christians who read this group. I believe that > they read this group because they are curious of the mystical things > that tend to be related to Christianity. I used to be Christian, but since I found myself getting oob, i've change my views on religion dramatically. I was always confused about my religion anyway (catholic) but now I have a whole new outlook on what I believe in. My old christian brainwashing still gets in the way though. I really feel I need to shake it off. :-) (Not trying to put down any catholics, just my views) > Well... I'm curious too. I wouldn't call myself a 'Non-Christian' - > but I wouldn't call myself a 'born-again Christian'. I feel that I'm > somewhat familiar with the teachings of Jesus. But I have a few > questions regarding the faith itself. > > I don't mean to offend anyone with my questions. This is not a debate. > > All I'm looking for is some stimulating conversation on the particular > subject I herein bring up. > > It is said that Jesus died for our sins... But, according to the Bible > - he didn't really die. He was alive the whole time - and he knew he > wouldn't die because he had other things to do after his body quit. Um, he was dead for three days wasn't he? I mean, he went through the pain of death for all humanity. But, like you say, he knew what was going to happen, so really, with that in mind, was it such a great sacrifice to make? > Last I heard, he had a fully functional body (albeit, with a few holes > in it) that went up into the sky and disappeared. He said he would > come back... > > So what is this about him dying? He didn't die. He knew he wouldn't. > So what is the big sacrifice? Didn't he sacrifice his life, as a mere mortal who was good at teaching the gospels and performing miracles, so that others who followed his teachings could follow him in death and gain entry to heaven for everlasting life with him? I mean, he came back three days later, rose from the dead, but he had died right? he just came back to life for a while to prove something. I would guess his sacrifice was that he would no longer be able to lead the life he was leading on earth at the time. Sort of like a small pop group who are good, and have a small following. If they become really goo and really famous, they have lost their own lives for a while, sort of. Not a good example. ;-) > God sacrificed his only son so that we might have eternal life? This > really makes no sense to me - especially since God knew his son would > not die. > > From what I've been taught - he left his body, went to pull a bunch of > souls from that which is known as death and brought them to a place he > built for them, then re-entered his body again to show us that there is > no death. Why does Christianity demand that we accept the philosophy > that God sacrificed his only son for our salvation? To me, God didn't > sacrifice anything... Nor did Jesus - except for his pride - which was > reconciled within a few short days. I see your point here. What has God sacrificed, when, if you believe in the teachings, he knows all that has happened and all that will ever happen? He already knows now where all this is leading anyway. He would have known it back then as well. What is the sacrifice that God made? > > I understand that Christianity has produced some incredibly talented > mystics. I even understand that suffering is important for focus. I > just don't understand why the death of Jesus is such a big deal when he > never actually died - and knew he wouldn't. Actually. Did Jesus know what was going on at the time? Or did he really think he was going to die? And what of all the Christians BC? Where did they think they went after death? I know the Egyptians believed in the after life. There must have been some Christian Egyptians? > But here is the key that I've found... Lucidity cannot be maintained > without an unconditional acceptance and an expression of LOVE. I lose > this insight very often (as many of you know) but I pick up on it again > from time to time. There is a certain regular poster here who knows > what I mean by losing control - as well as knowing the love that we > should express, calmly, at every opportunity, in order to maintain > balance (lucidity). > > Christianity is good. It's just that many Christians seem to be > confused.... Would it not be enough to *believe* in something so much that you blindly followed that belief with devotion? I mean, it's not just Christians who attempt to follow a righteous path. Many other religions are based on love and respect for fellow man and beast. Or did I misunderstand what you were saying there Bart? Forgive me if I did, it's way past my bedtime. :-) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au ###### From: Christina C Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:54:43 -0300 Organization: NBTel Internet Lines: 107 Message-ID: <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stjhts07c67.nbnet.nb.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0EC0BA5E3B106CC80ACEADD8" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) To: Bart Scott Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!not-for-mail --------------0EC0BA5E3B106CC80ACEADD8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Boy you know your right, 99% of christians are confused. Mostly I think because the bible is written symbolically and is left open for interpretation from different points of view. I was brought up in a religious home, my mom is catholic and my father is Pentecostal. They *allways* battled on who's point of view was right, still do. That benefited me because I found myself exploring every *religion* or *theory* I could find. So now i have my own ideas on our existence. You got to remember who wrote the bible and they were limited in how they could explain things. There was no term for obe's 2000 years ago and even if it was explained the bible may not have even been read or have lasted this long because it probably would have been dismissed as being written by some wacko if things were not put in terms the commoner would understand. Those of us with a little more smarts can read between the lines like you have. About the sacrifice, I think having huge nails pounded in my hands and feet and then being left hanging there a big sacrifice and he put up with allot of crap from people too. 2000 years age the people would see that and phrase what happened like that though, "I gave up my son for you" we probably phrase that differently now because we talk different now just like we don't say "So let it be written, so let it be done" (except on Star Trek LOL). Mabey what was meant by God sacrificing his only son was mabey that he could only do this trick once. Remember God, Jesus and the wholly spirit are really one in the same. God is an entity in three different forms. Mabey he could only come down in the physical form once and make that transformation from the physical to the spirit/soal then gaining this second type of physical body. You have an excellent insight on your views of love. Most people don't realize the link between love and our existence here. The expression of unconditional calm love is the most powerful force not just on Earth. Ever hear of the Monroe institute? Well Robert A. Monroe wrote a book "Journeys Out of the Body". He was able to travel very far and obtained a wealth of information with the help of guides. He often came across beings or guides who gave him insight to this connection between God, love, and what the heck we are doing here anyway (he is not a christian just a regular man). This book *really* challenged my beliefs at the time and at first i was more confused than ever. But the more i thought about it the more it tied things together and it honest to god changed my life forever. I had to order the book through a bookstore it was only $15 anyway so that was fine. I think you would love this book and it would answer all your questions. ~Christina~ :-) P.S. I too have been looking for stimulating conversation. Feel free to email me. --------------0EC0BA5E3B106CC80ACEADD8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Boy you know your right, 99% of christians are confused. Mostly I think because the bible is written symbolically and is left open for interpretation from different points of view. I was brought up in a religious home, my mom is catholic and my father is Pentecostal. They *allways* battled on who's point of view was right, still do. That benefited me because I found myself exploring every *religion* or *theory* I could find. So now i have my own ideas on our existence.
    You got to remember who wrote the bible and they were limited in how they could explain things. There was no term for obe's 2000 years ago and even if it was explained the bible may not have even been read or have lasted this long because it probably would have been dismissed as being written by some wacko if things were not put in terms the commoner would understand. Those of us with a little more smarts can read between the lines like you have.
    About the sacrifice, I think having huge nails pounded in my hands and feet and then being left hanging there a big sacrifice and he put up with allot of crap from people too. 2000 years age the people would see that and phrase what happened like that though, "I gave up my son for you" we probably phrase that differently now because we talk different now just like we don't say "So let it be written, so let it be done" (except on Star Trek LOL). Mabey what was meant by God sacrificing his only son was mabey that he could only do this trick once. Remember God, Jesus and the wholly spirit are really one in the same. God is an entity in three different forms. Mabey he could only come down in the physical form once and make that transformation from the physical to the spirit/soal then gaining this second type of physical body.
    You have an excellent insight on your views of love. Most people don't realize the link between love and our existence here. The expression of unconditional calm love is the most powerful force not just on Earth.
    Ever hear of the Monroe institute? Well Robert A. Monroe wrote a book "Journeys Out of the Body". He was able to travel very far and obtained a wealth of information with the help of guides. He often came across beings or guides who gave him insight to this connection  between God, love, and what the heck we are doing here anyway (he is not a christian just a regular man). This book *really* challenged my beliefs at the time and at first i was more confused than ever. But the more i thought about it the more it tied things together and it honest to god changed my life forever. I had to order the book through a bookstore it was only $15 anyway so that was fine. I think you would love this book and it would answer all your questions.
~Christina~ :-)
P.S. I too have been looking for stimulating conversation. Feel free to email me.
 
 
  --------------0EC0BA5E3B106CC80ACEADD8-- ###### From: Christina C Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:24:36 -0300 Organization: NBTel Internet Lines: 9 Message-ID: <35D2E913.5458215A@nbnet.nb.ca> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stjhts14c68.nbnet.nb.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) To: Bart Scott Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!not-for-mail I'm sorry, the book I was referring to was "Far Journeys" by the same author Robert A Monroe. The other I mentioned "Journeys Out of the Body" is the precursor to the book "Far Journeys". The later is the one that I spoke that challenged my ideas, although his first book "Journeys Out of the Body" is also interesting and enlightening. ~Christina~:-) ###### From: J L Williams Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:24:17 +0100 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1998081311241775767@zetnet.co.uk> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> <6qtoie$i4s@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk X-Mailer: ZIMACS Version 1.20c 10003900 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!colt.net!demeter.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!zetnet.co.uk!user-10003900.zetnet.co.uk!not-for-mail Well you chose a heavy topic here Bart . (Caution/disclaimer, it is some time since I have studied this topic) OBE's have made me question my knowledge of The Word but in a slightly different way. I know that modern interpretations of the life and works of Jesus vary but some things need to be taken literally. One such is (and I have forgotten where it says this) that in Sheoul there is no laughing, no crying, one is as asleep in the grave, or words to that effect. What this means is that we cease to exist when we die until that Great Day, the second coming? This does not equate with 3 NDEs that I had! Ah well, back to the thought board. Jim ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 13 Aug 1998 13:59:36 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6qurg8$68o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh38-24.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 13 8:59:36 AM CDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!ibm.net!news.freedom2surf.net!diablo.theplanet.net!london-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.xcom.net!ix.netcom.com!news In <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> Christina C writes: > Ever hear of the Monroe institute? Well Robert A. Monroe wrote a >book "Journeys Out of the Body". It's sitting on my bookshelf next to "Far Journeys" and "Ultimate Journey". >I think you would love this book and it would answer all your >questions. I liked the books - but I really don't think they answer *ALL* of my questions ;-) Bart ###### From: Christina C Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:23:52 -0300 Organization: NBTel Internet Lines: 4 Message-ID: <35D32128.3D6208DA@nbnet.nb.ca> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> <6qurg8$68o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stjhts19c95.nbnet.nb.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.172.150.11!news1.bellglobal.com!torn!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!not-for-mail There's another book!!!!! great!!! I always meant to find out if there was. Someone told me Monroe died after he wrote "Far Journeys". ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 13 Aug 1998 18:44:16 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6qvc60$coc@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> <6qurg8$68o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <35D32128.3D6208DA@nbnet.nb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh43-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 13 11:44:16 AM PDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news In <35D32128.3D6208DA@nbnet.nb.ca> Christina C writes: > >There's another book!!!!! great!!! I always meant to find out if there >was. Someone told me Monroe died after he wrote "Far Journeys". Well... generally speaking - he did. But not before writing "Ultimate Journey". :-) Bart ###### From: "Trish" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:00:04 -0400 Organization: gte.net Lines: 60 Message-ID: <6r05ck$sd6$1@news-2.news.gte.net> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> Reply-To: "Trish" NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust122.tnt2.new-port-richey.fl.gt.uu.net X-Auth: D513C0400083CD9D44968491 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!worldfeed.gte.net!newsfeed.gte.net!newsfeed2.gte.net.MISMATCH!news.gte.net!not-for-mail >> Last I heard, he had a fully functional body (albeit, with a few holes >> in it) that went up into the sky and disappeared. He said he would >> come back... >> >> So what is this about him dying? He didn't die. He knew he wouldn't. >> So what is the big sacrifice? Somehow I've lost the beginning of this thread, as well as a few more posts, thanks to my server, so I'm jumping in here. I was born and raised Catholic .. but at a very young age I decided not to be. It's taken me quite some time not to sneer at a bible, but I think I've come to the point where I'm able to value the religion for what it is. The big sacrifice ... to me, would simply be physical existance. For some reason most Christian religions emphasize the physical state of being as close to hell as we could come without actually being there. We are all sinners. We are all bad. We all must change. I can't view it this way. To Jesus, the world, and people were beautiful. Physical life was a precious bounty. To watch a child being born, to see the wonder in the eyes all around you. To see people struggle through hard times, and the happiness they found when they were successful. Every river .. stream .. every little mouse in a field. To feel a warm breeze, and the sun shining on his face. I have a hard time believing that Jesus' point to the human race was that we were a corrupted species of sinners - though I do believe this is how his teachings are usually translated. I think he tried to show us how to appreciate the world around us by spreading unconditional love, and showing us our true spiritual nature. Instead of "sinner" what he may have meant is "learner" .... people may have confused learning, with the belief that they must already be doing something wrong ... rather than viewing it as a natural process in spiritual development. Jesus did not put a dividing line up between him and them .. or he and us. He saw that the true wonder of the experience was in the process of learning itself. So to leave all of this behind must have been a grueling thing to go through. Imagine the world through purely spiritual eyes. Imagine leaving it. In order for his words to reach future generations, his death was needed for emphasis. He knew we still had so far to come to truly understand and appreciate life. This "sacrifice" may be one of the few purities that has survived. "Yes, there is a life beyond this, but my sacrifice is knowing the value of what I leave behind" Thinking of it this way, even my heart goes out to him. .................................................... Trish AIM: trishmunk1 capuchin@gte.net capuchin2@hotmail.com .............................................................. ###### From: haven@spam.com (Haven) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:00:53 GMT Organization: ISM Networking Lines: 44 Message-ID: <35d66d7b.13464500@news.ism.com.br> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digital028.ism.com.br Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!200.255.253.242!newsfeed.embratel.net.br!news.ism.com.br!not-for-mail The first thing you MUST have in mind when you read the Bible is that the Bible is *not* a history book. The Bible is writtenin a metaphoric way; you must interpret what is written there. Do you really think that a woman named Eve ate an apple, and because of that, 'God' got angry and drove them away of his garden? On 12 Aug 1998 04:50:26 GMT, bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) wrote: > >It is said that Jesus died for our sins... But, according to the Bible >- he didn't really die. He was alive the whole time - and he knew he >wouldn't die because he had other things to do after his body quit. > >Last I heard, he had a fully functional body (albeit, with a few holes >in it) that went up into the sky and disappeared. He said he would >come back... Jesus died. What we call 'death' happened to him. But Jesus was not a common man; he achieved Union With God, so we can't really separate God from Jesus; Jesus is the embassador of God on this Earth, and representing him he is all that He is. So, Jesus *died* but being Absolute, he couldn't really die. This is all very abstract so if you disagree, just reply. > >So what is this about him dying? He didn't die. He knew he wouldn't. >So what is the big sacrifice? > >God sacrificed his only son so that we might have eternal life? This >really makes no sense to me - especially since God knew his son would >not die. Jesus didn't die to give us an eternal life. If this is true, so Moses and Solomon are not in heaven, and they were two Great Adepts. Jesus came and gave his life for us in the ultimate expression of love - much to be like an example. He gave the knowledge and gave the sacrifice needed to open the hearts and the minds of the people to the God Absolute. If you interpret carefully the Bible is a great esoteric book and has similarities with eastern philosophy. - Haven thoth at ism dot com dot br * the first hour * ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 14 Aug 1998 00:38:03 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 79 Message-ID: <6r00tb$9q3@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35d66d7b.13464500@news.ism.com.br> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh38-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 13 7:38:03 PM CDT 1998 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!news In <35d66d7b.13464500@news.ism.com.br> haven@spam.com (Haven) writes: > >The first thing you MUST have in mind when you read the Bible is that >the Bible is *not* a history book. The Bible is writtenin a >metaphoric way; you must interpret what is written there. Do you >really think that a woman named Eve ate an apple, and because of that, >'God' got angry and drove them away of his garden? I personally look at the story of Adam and Eve as a metaphor - but there are probably several million Christians who take it as absolute fact. There *ARE* some things in the Bible that I take as fact as well. For instance - I accept that Jesus performed 'miracles' and healed people. So I really approach the Bible as a mixture of metaphor and actual history. >Jesus died. What we call 'death' happened to him. But Jesus was not a >common man; he achieved Union With God, so we can't really separate >God from Jesus; Jesus is the embassador of God on this Earth, and >representing him he is all that He is. So, Jesus *died* but being >Absolute, he couldn't really die. >This is all very abstract so if you disagree, just reply. I can't disagree with you because you've just agreed with me... We, as humans, simply don't know what death is. Another personal opinion of mine is that any number of people you pass on the street may already be dead. If they have absolutely no interest in the divine and are only focused on their own life as a business person or perhaps a rapist - they are not really alive at all. That, to me, is true death. >>God sacrificed his only son so that we might have eternal life? This >>really makes no sense to me - especially since God knew his son would >>not die. > >Jesus didn't die to give us an eternal life. But that's what the Bible says - and that's what millions of Christians will tell you... >If this is true, so Moses >and Solomon are not in heaven, and they were two Great Adepts. If I understand the teachings correctly - immediately after Jesus left his body on the cross he went to the place of death and freed folks like Moses and Solomon. If you recall when he met MM outside of the tomb - he told her not to touch him because he had not yet returned to his Father. Which, to me, meant he was full of the sins (karma) of these people. According to what I was taught - nobody in all of history was in Heaven until JC brought them there after his crucifixion. As I recall - that is mentioned in "The Apostle's Creed". >Jesus >came and gave his life for us in the ultimate expression of love - >much to be like an example. He gave the knowledge and gave the >sacrifice needed to open the hearts and the minds of the people to the >God Absolute. If you interpret carefully the Bible is a great esoteric >book and has similarities with eastern philosophy. >- Haven Yes it does have a great deal of similarities with eastern philosophy. But you will find very few Born Again Christians who will agree with you on that claim. It's such a difficult thing to talk with BACs about philosophy. For them, if it is not in the Bible, then it is not true... Out of the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of stars in the universe - only one star has a single rock that revolves around it and contains life? This makes no sense to me - but it makes perfect sense to a great deal of BACs. Again - Jesus did not die. The second coming may very well be the realization of this on an individual basis. The Rapture may be more similar to sudden enlightenment of a large portion of the population as opposed to people actually vanishing from the face of the Earth. Armegeddon may be a war fought between those who've actually found the truth - and those who stick tight to their beliefs. I digress in fantasy... Sorry. I'm not ready to have that type of conversation. Bart ###### From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 14 Aug 1998 04:24:30 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Lines: 163 Message-ID: <35D3BA58.519A79EB@spiritone.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903068670 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet57.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Bart Scott X-Trace-ISP: 903068667 32471 205.139.109.95 znk7/F20104:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Hi Bart! I am a born-againer. It's not stopping me from the OBE's or the supernatural life, just enhances it. I guess I am not the typical Christian though because I am very open. My psychic experiences stems from being in a church very deeply for about 6 yrs, when one night after awaking and then being put in a trance state (through meditation/prayer) I had an experience of a voice speaking to me aloud, telling me what was going to happen the next day. It's kind of a long story, but I won't go into details to much. I was wanting a particular job, knew I was gonna get it. Then here in the middle of the night this voice called me by name and said, "Jan, you won't get that job tomorrow, but God has a heavenly reward for you." Guess what, I didn't. The first OBE I ever had was related to being heavy into the church/bible/meditation, etc. Just a spontaneous OBE. I hope I can answer some of your questions below. Bart Scott wrote: > I'm stuck in this newsgroup and post to no other. I'm sorry for being > slightly off topic here, but there is a bit of this post that matches > with this group. > > I'm certain there are Christians who read this group. I believe that > they read this group because they are curious of the mystical things > that tend to be related to Christianity. > Yep! > Well... I'm curious too. I wouldn't call myself a 'Non-Christian' - > but I wouldn't call myself a 'born-again Christian'. I feel that I'm > somewhat familiar with the teachings of Jesus. But I have a few > questions regarding the faith itself. > > I don't mean to offend anyone with my questions. This is not a debate. > No offense taken. > All I'm looking for is some stimulating conversation on the particular > subject I herein bring up. > > It is said that Jesus died for our sins... But, according to the Bible > - he didn't really die. He was alive the whole time - and he knew he > wouldn't die because he had other things to do after his body quit. He was alive spiritually as he went to get and reclaim what Satan had stolen from God through Adam and Eve. . .namely, God gave them dominion over everything. They lost it through disobedience. Jesus got it back. He did know he was going to die. In the garden of gesthemenes while he prayed before Judas came to betray him, it says he *sweated drops of blood and asked God that this cup might pass from him*, in other words he didn't want to go on with this dying on the cross thing if God could find another way. Also on the cross before he gave up the ghost, it says he said, father why have you forsaken me? See he went to hell for mankind, conquered it, came back to the physical and said I did this so you can have eternal life. BTW, all the people and tribes that God had the Israelites conquer and kill, it was because the lineage had been contaminated with fallen angels mating with women producing giants. Satan had a plan to thwart God's plan. I think you can read about that in Genesis 4, and 6 it talks about the angels finding the women beautiful and mating with them.Nope! Actually, he did die. It says that he "gave up the ghost." He was dead for 3 days, then he was resurrected. This parallels Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his son and he did but God had an angel stay his hand. You see it all goes back to Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit. Evidently when they ate of this, they lost eternal life for all mankind. Mankind came under the *curse of the law*. God needed a plan to bring mankind back into eternal life again. So, through the seed of Abraham, he brought Jesus. You can trace the lineage back to Abraham. Anyway, asking Abraham to sacrifice his son (although he did it by faith, not actuality), God struck a covenant (deal) with Abraham. God's part of the deal was sacrificing his son. In the New Testament it says, Jesus was made a curse for us so that we could be under the blessings of Abraham. You can see the blessing and curses in Deuteronomy. > > > Last I heard, he had a fully functional body (albeit, with a few holes > in it) that went up into the sky and disappeared. He said he would > come back... > The reason he had holes in his side was that when people died from crucifixion, the Roman soldiers would usually come and break their legs so that they couldn't push themselves up to continue breathing and lingering. This was to finish them off so to speak. Crucifixion creates a horrible death whereby the crucified suffocates, and water and blood forms around the lung / heart area. (medical fact) When the Roman soldier saw Jesus was dead he felt no need to break his legs and instead stuck in his spear in his side where water and blood came gushing out. This was so that the prophecy could be fulfilled in Psalms where it said of the Messiah that not one of his bones would be broken. > So what is this about him dying? He didn't die. He knew he wouldn't. > So what is the big sacrifice? > > God sacrificed his only son so that we might have eternal life? This > really makes no sense to me - especially since God knew his son would > not die. It all has to do with the laws that he created. > > Physically he did die. When he returned to the apostles, and I believe Mary Magdelene, he asked them not to touch him yet because he wasn't fully transformed. > From what I've been taught - he left his body, went to pull a bunch of > souls from that which is known as death and brought them to a place he > built for them, then re-entered his body again to show us that there is > no death. Why does Christianity demand that we accept the philosophy > that God sacrificed his only son for our salvation? To me, God didn't > sacrifice anything... Nor did Jesus - except for his pride - which was > reconciled within a few short days. > > I understand that Christianity has produced some incredibly talented > mystics. I even understand that suffering is important for focus. I disagree with the suffering. I think it's something people think they have to do. Not true. > I > just don't understand why the death of Jesus is such a big deal when he > never actually died - and knew he wouldn't. > Think of it this way. It's similar to this. A young girl appears in court before the judge for reckless driving. The judge is her natural father. The law is she must do 30 days in jail and pay a fine. Can the judge say, no! this is my child, there is no crime here? Nope. What is he to do. He is the lawmaker. The judge passes judgment on his daughter and then gets up from his seat and comes down to pay the penalty for her. So she can go free. We are God's children. He wanted a family. Why wouldn't he pay the penalty for us as well. > But here is the key that I've found... Lucidity cannot be maintained > without an unconditional acceptance and an expression of LOVE. I lose > this insight very often (as many of you know) but I pick up on it again > from time to time. There is a certain regular poster here who knows > what I mean by losing control - as well as knowing the love that we > should express, calmly, at every opportunity, in order to maintain > balance (lucidity). > > Christianity is good. It's just that many Christians seem to be > confused.... > This is true. > Bart ###### From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 14 Aug 1998 04:24:43 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Lines: 160 Message-ID: <35D3BA1E.84E374A4@spiritone.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903068683 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet52.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Bart Scott X-Trace-ISP: 903068607 4630 205.139.109.95 znk7/F20104:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail Hi Bart! I am a born-againer. It's not stopping me from the OBE's or the supernatural life, just enhances it. I guess I am not the typical Christian though because I am very open. My psychic experiences stems from being in a church very deeply for about 6 yrs, when one night after awaking and then being put in a trance state (through meditation/prayer) I had an experience of a voice speaking to me aloud, telling me what was going to happen the next day. It's kind of a long story, but I won't go into details to much. I was wanting a particular job, knew I was gonna get it. Then here in the middle of the night this voice called me by name and said, "Jan, you won't get that job tomorrow, but God has a heavenly reward for you." Guess what, I didn't. The first OBE I ever had was related to being heavy into the church/bible/meditation, etc. Just a spontaneous OBE. I hope I can answer some of your questions below. Bart Scott wrote: > I'm stuck in this newsgroup and post to no other. I'm sorry for being > slightly off topic here, but there is a bit of this post that matches > with this group. > > I'm certain there are Christians who read this group. I believe that > they read this group because they are curious of the mystical things > that tend to be related to Christianity. > Yep! > Well... I'm curious too. I wouldn't call myself a 'Non-Christian' - > but I wouldn't call myself a 'born-again Christian'. I feel that I'm > somewhat familiar with the teachings of Jesus. But I have a few > questions regarding the faith itself. > > I don't mean to offend anyone with my questions. This is not a debate. > No offense taken. > All I'm looking for is some stimulating conversation on the particular > subject I herein bring up. > > It is said that Jesus died for our sins... But, according to the Bible > - he didn't really die. He was alive the whole time - and he knew he > wouldn't die because he had other things to do after his body quit. He was alive spiritually as he went to get and reclaim what Satan had stolen from God through Adam and Eve. . .namely, God gave them dominion over everything. They lost it through disobedience. Jesus got it back. He did know he was going to die. In the garden of gesthemenes while he prayed before Judas came to betray him, it says he *sweated drops of blood and asked God that this cup might pass from him*, in other words he didn't want to go on with this dying on the cross thing if God could find another way. Also on the cross before he gave up the ghost, it says he said, father why have you forsaken me? See he went to hell for mankind, conquered it, came back to the physical and said I did this so you can have eternal life. BTW, all the people and tribes that God had the Israelites conquer and kill, it was because the lineage had been contaminated with fallen angels mating with women producing giants. Satan had a plan to thwart God's plan. I think you can read about that in Genesis 4, and 6 it talks about the angels finding the women beautiful and mating with them.Nope! Actually, he did die. It says that he "gave up the ghost." He was dead for 3 days, then he was resurrected. This parallels Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his son and he did but God had an angel stay his hand. You see it all goes back to Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit. Evidently when they ate of this, they lost eternal life for all mankind. Mankind came under the *curse of the law*. God needed a plan to bring mankind back into eternal life again. So, through the seed of Abraham, he brought Jesus. You can trace the lineage back to Abraham. Anyway, asking Abraham to sacrifice his son (although he did it by faith, not actuality), God struck a covenant (deal) with Abraham. God's part of the deal was sacrificing his son. In the New Testament it says, Jesus was made a curse for us so that we could be under the blessings of Abraham. You can see the blessing and curses in Deuteronomy. > > > Last I heard, he had a fully functional body (albeit, with a few holes > in it) that went up into the sky and disappeared. He said he would > come back... > The reason he had holes in his side was that when people died from crucifixion, the Roman soldiers would usually come and break their legs so that they couldn't push themselves up to continue breathing and lingering. This was to finish them off so to speak. Crucifixion creates a horrible death whereby the crucified suffocates, and water and blood forms around the lung / heart area. (medical fact) When the Roman soldier saw Jesus was dead he felt no need to break his legs and instead stuck in his spear in his side where water and blood came gushing out. This was so that the prophecy could be fulfilled in Psalms where it said of the Messiah that not one of his bones would be broken. > So what is this about him dying? He didn't die. He knew he wouldn't. > So what is the big sacrifice? > > God sacrificed his only son so that we might have eternal life? This > really makes no sense to me - especially since God knew his son would > not die. It all has to do with the laws that he created. > > Physically he did die. When he returned to the apostles, and I believe Mary Magdelene, he asked them not to touch him yet because he wasn't fully transformed. > From what I've been taught - he left his body, went to pull a bunch of > souls from that which is known as death and brought them to a place he > built for them, then re-entered his body again to show us that there is > no death. Why does Christianity demand that we accept the philosophy > that God sacrificed his only son for our salvation? To me, God didn't > sacrifice anything... Nor did Jesus - except for his pride - which was > reconciled within a few short days. > > I understand that Christianity has produced some incredibly talented > mystics. I even understand that suffering is important for focus. I disagree with the suffering. I think it's something people think they have to do. Not true. > I > just don't understand why the death of Jesus is such a big deal when he > never actually died - and knew he wouldn't. > Think of it this way. It's similar to this. A young girl appears in court before the judge for reckless driving. The judge is her natural father. The law is she must do 30 days in jail and pay a fine. Can the judge say, no! this is my child, there is no crime here? Nope. What is he to do. He is the lawmaker. The judge passes judgment on his daughter and then gets up from his seat and comes down to take the penalty for her. So she can go free. We are God's children. He wanted a family. Why wouldn't he pay the penalty for us as well. > But here is the key that I've found... Lucidity cannot be maintained > without an unconditional acceptance and an expression of LOVE. I lose > this insight very often (as many of you know) but I pick up on it again > from time to time. There is a certain regular poster here who knows > what I mean by losing control - as well as knowing the love that we > should express, calmly, at every opportunity, in order to maintain > balance (lucidity). > > Christianity is good. It's just that many Christians seem to be > confused.... > > Bart ###### From: Jan Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 14 Aug 1998 04:33:30 GMT Organization: SpiritOne Internet 503-240-8200 Lines: 32 Message-ID: <35D3BC77.DC644247@spiritone.com> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.108.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 903069210 CTYA.ZJBS6C02CD8BC usenet57.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Craig X-Trace-ISP: 903069209 32471 205.139.109.95 znk7/F20104:ryyvfba X-Complaints-To-ISP: abuse@spiritone.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail I almost forgot Craig. There are some who believe, myself included, that in Constanople many parts of the Bible referring to reincarnation were removed from the original text. Why? They authority in that day, the church, believe if people had only one chance (life) the church would have more political control over the people. Also a book I read some time ago had a quote that Jesus said something to the effect that if you wouldn't get out of doing the right something, because you would return again and again in another lifetime. Also, Jesus says in the Gospels to the Apostle that spirit of Elisha (or Elija -- LOL I always get them mixed up) came in John the Baptist but the people didn't know him. To me, that's perfectly clear. His spirit was reborn in the body of John The Baptist, err . . . John and Elisha were one and the same. Craig wrote: > Bart Scott wrote: > > > > I'm stuck in this newsgroup and post to no other. I'm sorry for being > > slightly off topic here, but there is a bit of this post that matches > > with this group. > > This was s'posed to be the start of a new thread .... right? Just > confused me a little. :-) > > > I'm certain there are Christians who read this group. I believe that > > they read this group because they are curious of the mystical things > > that tend to be related to Christianity. ###### Message-ID: <35D37BEC.6CEA1FFD@the.end.of.the.message> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:51:08 +1000 From: Craig Organization: Deja Vous X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> <6qtoie$i4s@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.18.28.48 X-Trace: 14 Aug 1998 10:17:28 +1000, 203.18.28.48 Lines: 155 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.ntr.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!nap-ns1!203.18.28.48 Hi Bart. > Are you aware that Catholocism has more mystics associated with it than > any other branch of Christianity? Or for that matter - any other > religion generally associated with western civilization? Don't change > your religion just because of the hipocrites that may be involved with > it. I have a very difficult time practicing what I preach. I credit > my familiarity with Catholocism for my interest in the paranormal - > specifically, OBE. Most other branches of Christianity seem to lean > toward more subtle forms of the paranormal. Catholocism is INTENSE. > Yet, Catholocism also seems to be very closely related to occultism - > due to its major use of symbolism, highly focus prayer, rituals, > idolotry, and worship of various spirits. Mary, for example, is > basically considered a type of goddess in a hierarchy - in some cases > even more powerfull than Jesus - since she is his mother and he must > obey her... Saint Peter is also part of it as a gate keeper. There are > others. Tends to be a bit confusing. Oh, i didn't turn from my catholic upbringing just because I found I was confused with it's teachings. I had more personal reasons than just to disagree with what it taught. :-) Granted, it does have a lot of aspects that can be compared to what I am slowly finding in my OOB experiences, and other things generally related to the paranormal, but don't a lot of other religions have explanations for these things as well? I'm not really sure about many other religious outlooks, I guess I was brought up to believe that the catholic way was the only way. Now, after many years of slowly finding out more about myself personally, I have started to have more of an interest in other points of views. :-) There are so many subtle similarities, it surprises me more and more all the time. > No doubt, he suffered heavily and his physical body was not moving > around for 3 days - but he was still alive as a spiritual entity. His > stage show was to prove to humanity that there is no such thing as > death for those who understand his teachings. So, therefore, since he > believed in his own teachings, he never died... Hmmm. I always thought that he *was* human until he died and rose again from the dead, thus becoming immortal and not human. That, to me, would have been his sacrifice of death. To me, he died a human death, pain and all. And he suffered in death, nailed to a cross and left to die. Didn't one of the soldiers also break his legs so he had to hang from his hands, and pierced him in the side with a sword. I'd call that terrible suffering. But, again, he did know that the suffering would only last for the time he was alive on the cross, he knew he would rise again, free from pain and free from death. > Absolutely! And that is a very good point. He sacrificed mortality > for immortality - that I accept. If this is the way Christianity means > it, then it should be taught that way. As it is - I have, to date, > heard very few teach it in this manner. Still... death, in this > approach, is only symbolic. He made a choice to make a change. I've > noted through the last 4 years that change resembles death - but life > continues after change. Death as we see it at the grave is not the way > it really is. Death only exists for those stuck with the ideal of > mortality. Immortality, on the other hand, does not involve death - > only change. All agreed. Except, change isn't a resemblance of death. It can also be life, birth, rebirth, whatever. Take the Aussie outback for example. A bush fire rages through and chars everything, everything looks dead. But, from the ashes comes new life from the life that existed. Seed pods that can only open upon extreme heat, drop from the burnt trees to the ground and root there. This is not death, but life from life. But again there is suffering to bring this life. One existence goes and another begins. :-)Maybe change resembles suffering more than death or life. That suffering is needed more than anything else for us to grow further along what ever path we have chosen. :-) Immortality, imo, is the continuation of an existence from the sacrifice of another. It could still involve death, or something similar to death as we see it as mortal beings. If only we could take our conscience with us through our mortal death and bring back the memories of a full past life in the next. > To prove that there is no such thing as death... So he never died. > Death only exists for those who don't understand the functions of the > teachings he related. Okay, death as we see it from a mortal view point. I see what you are saying. We don't die, we move on. But, i feel we do die, if only to move on. :-) > Um... didn't Christianity actually start with Jesus? I mean... John > the Baptist was the first person in the Bible that I can find that > actually reads like a Christian before Jesus arrives on the scene - the > rest where Jews. The present day Jew, as far as I understand (PLEASE > correct me if I'm wrong) does not accept Jesus as Christians do. I think that the coming of Jesus was foretold wasn't it? That's sort of what I meant here. What did the people who were waiting for the coming of Christ think happened to them upon death? I for one believe I will carry on in some form after I have died my mortal death. I believe that my soul, or my conscience will carry on without my body. I still need to find my own answers to what I believe will happen, but I can't accept that when my physical body dies that's it. Surely, people before Jesus, who had heard of his coming, must have had some idea about what would happen to them after death? I don't believe in the followings I was taught, but I believe in something after this life. If you call that confused, then so be it. :-) We all need to find our own answers. > There is talk of Jesus travelling to Egypt or India during his youth to > study and refine his understanding of reality - I am not totally > convinced that this happened, but it wouldn't surprise me if any proof > actually exists. According to the Bible, Jesus said, "In my Father's > Kingdom, there are many mansions. I go now to prepare a place for > you." To me this means he went to the inner planes to 'prepare' a > place for those who call on him as a savior. Exploration of the inner > worlds is not limited to this century or this newsgroup alone. There > is a large percentage of people who know that the inner dimensions > exist as a huge, barely explored reality. It is very confusing when > one arrives there after the body quits. I believe that Jesus built a > place for his followers to go to so they wouldn't be so totally lost in > the confusion of the inner realms. This just comes down to ones own belief system though doesn't it? I mean, if someone really believed that after this life there was a new life that involved looking after people starting out in this life, would they not fully expect to find this in the next life? If we were to believe that only Christians could enjoy life everlasting in the 'Father's Kingdom', to me being a metaphor for the next stage, then it wouldn't be a very populous place. Upon saying this, could Jesus have just been a fictional character, made up to give hope to people who needed something to believe in? > First of all - I'm not pushing Christianity here. It's just that it is > the most widely spread religion of the western hemisphere. I know > there are other paths that lead in the same direction. It's said in > two different ways in at least two different books of the Bible. 1. > Those who are not against us are for us. 2. Those who are not for us > are against us. One of the things I don't like about Christianity, if you don't believe you are damned. Are there any other religions that have that philosophy? > So, basically - if you are not against the spreading of unconditional > love, then you run a slim risk of being lost on the inner realms. On > the other hand - if you are totally drawn up into self satisfaction, > you run the greatest risk of getting tangled up in the mess beyond the > physical. Those who travel within regularly know what a mess this can > become without the dicipline of some form of spiritual direction. I have not travelled as regularly as I would like to. Maybe I need to do a lot more soul searching of my own. :-) I think I need to buy a nice cabin out in the woods and live alone for a while. ;-) All the best Craig -- The sure way to make a thing impossible- -is to think it so. --- Franklin To respond, delete _nospam_ scrappy@_nospam_netconnect.com.au ###### From: Ken S. Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 14 Aug 1998 15:35:09 PDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 14 Message-ID: <35d6bb7c.16180300@news.ke9nr.org> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> <6qurg8$68o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <35D32128.3D6208DA@nbnet.nb.ca> <6qvc60$coc@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts007d09.las-nv.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master Hi Gerrit - On 14 Aug 1998 18:47:21 GMT, gerrit@auracom.com (Gerrit Deppe) wrote: >I wonder if we can get Monroe to write one more book. We'll use Jane >Roberts as a medium, and she can write it for him in the ethereal world. > >That is if SHE is still alive. You're quite a number of years too late for that. Jane Roberts died on 5-Sep-1984. The Other Ken http://www.ke9nr.org/ ###### From: gerrit@auracom.com (Gerrit Deppe) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 14 Aug 1998 18:47:21 GMT Organization: Interhop Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> <6qurg8$68o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <35D32128.3D6208DA@nbnet.nb.ca> <6qvc60$coc@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts4-d15.hfx.auracom.com Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.news.idirect.com!newsfeed.torontointernetxchange.net!news.auracom.net!ts4-d15.hfx.auracom.com!user In article <6qvc60$coc@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>, bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) wrote: >In <35D32128.3D6208DA@nbnet.nb.ca> Christina C >writes: >> >>There's another book!!!!! great!!! I always meant to find out if there >>was. Someone told me Monroe died after he wrote "Far Journeys". > >Well... generally speaking - he did. But not before writing "Ultimate >Journey". :-) > >Bart I wonder if we can get Monroe to write one more book. We'll use Jane Roberts as a medium, and she can write it for him in the ethereal world. That is if SHE is still alive. G. ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: 15 Aug 1998 15:04:35 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2D402.84971216@nbnet.nb.ca> <6qurg8$68o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <35D32128.3D6208DA@nbnet.nb.ca> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Christina C writes: > > There's another book!!!!! great!!! I always meant to find out if there > was. Someone told me Monroe died after he wrote "Far Journeys". No, he went on and wrote The Ultimate Journey. He did die after that. -- home: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ work: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ *** It's true ! I read it on Usenet and the Web ! *** ###### From: Christina C Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Bart gets off topic - Christianity Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:39:52 -0300 Organization: NBTel Internet Lines: 11 Message-ID: <35D5D5F8.27674CA8@nbnet.nb.ca> References: <6qkv60$i30$1@news.bart.net> <35CEC566.2781@sanger.ac.uk> <35D0C686.6D1C8118@the.end.of.the.message> <6qr6ui$s5k@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <35D2173E.8171D8E8@the.end.of.the.message> <6qtoie$i4s@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <35D37BEC.6CEA1FFD@the.end.of.the.message> NNTP-Posting-Host: stjhts07c54.nbnet.nb.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!garnet.nbnet.nb.ca!not-for-mail I'm so glad to find out Monroe wrote another book! Thanks all for informing me. :-) I have never read anything that put together pieces for me like his books did. But those are the only books I have read on that matter was the two by Robert Monroe. I don't know of any other good books of that type. Does anyone know of a book or web page or anywhere I can get information on how to help yourself have an obe? I need a little help. Thanks! ~Christina~ :-)