Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 312 Message-ID: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.144.129 X-Trace: 895146122 AFJDQJSII9081CF22C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Part Two of A Course on Consciousness LANGUAGE AND COMMUNICATION This is a thoroughgoing examination of communication and language both verbal and non-verbal. The most important part of our personal and social existence is the ability to communicate and convey a language based on thoughts and ideas. Language on earth has been limited to a very linear way of speaking. Our thoughts are articulated through a series of verbal commands which sometimes loose themselves in semantics and ideologies of other humans. Even the best linguist would have problems conveying a thought to people where language causes the break up of communication. When exploring consciousness, it is important to see certain factors of communication which is present in every day life. The most major level of communication is non-verbal in the form of reality itself. Non-verbal communication is a very advanced way of thinking. It entails thoughts and ideas, which are generated in a manner so that to convey it would mean to experience it similar to how we experience our physical existence. In the previous chapter, we discussed energy as having consciousness. And the physical senses as tools that we use to communicate with our external physical matter reality. The reason why I have taken this angle is because I want you to entertain the possibility that everything you are experiencing now is a complete form of communication both physical and non-physical levels. Universal consciousness if it does exist would be the sum of all our ideas, the ideas and thoughts of other intelligence's, and the ideas and thoughts of intelligence systems that go far thoughts of other intelligence's, and the ideas and thoughts of intelligence systems that go far beyond a human intelligence. Universal consciousness is where we objectify truth. It is the realm of the absolute and concrete. The most founding level of that truth is the fact that a universe exists at all. To personalize the truth we can admonish our own existence and acknowledge the fact we exist as having a fundamental truth to that personalized statement. Communication with a collective universal consciousness would mean that the language by which this objective universe speaks is how our experiences as subjective consciousness perceive this communication. Self-realization and self-exploration of ourselves as a part of a collective whole begins when we start to objectify truth. Truth is an absolute that we cannot argue or bicker over with ourselves. It's like trying to argue that you do not exist at all with yourself when by that argument, you have proven that you do exist, at least, you have proven this to yourself. My fundamental basis for truth is the fact I exist and that something (left undefined for the argument) exists around me. All I have is myself as truth, and this is shared as a relationship with what I perceive as our externalized reality. And this externalized reality has others like myself who share in thoughts and ideas where communication plays a vital role in the conveying of these ideas. What about dreams? What are they? Are they just a thought pattern that our mind creates? Do dreams have a reality to them? Why is it that billions of life forms dream? If dreams are not important to physical reality, then why does our consciousness require them during sleep? Do dreams have the potential to be objective? Think about the possibility for now that some people share dreams. If you have not experience a shared dream before. Imagine similar tools of perception perceiving another spectrum of energy, which is more directly related to our thoughts and consciousness. If people share dreams, then telepathy is a naturally occurring at some sub-conscious level. If two or more consciousness can share the same dream then the energy system that both share are the products of conscious thought patterning. In my studies, I have spoken with several people who have shared dreams. Myself being one of those people know that dreams can be shared. This is not a belief, or a desired fantasy, rather a personally explored part of my reality. Dreams are as much a language as the spoken word. A powerful lucid dreamer with full control of the dream whereby he/she is sharing this dream with other consciousness has an ability to convey ideas in words, more so this consciousness can convey ideas where his thoughts become the dream. The recipient then experiences the dream based on this communication. It is natural for that subconscious part of ourselves to share a dream reality as it is for our physical waking consciousness to see and understand it's physical environment. The difficulty with shared dreams is the current human ideas and beliefs about dreams. Most think that dreams have no objective value and are purely the results of some unknown subconscious need to dream. The good news is people are starting to have experiences in the dreamstate that defy logical reason. The effects of this are profound enough to cause the person to think and analyze their views on dreams and what they mean. Dreams at deeper levels of our sub-conscious begin to connect to a collective unconscious. At even deeper levels, dreams start to transcend the space time limitations of a physical belief system and precognitive elements begin to surface within a dreamers waking consciousness. Even deeper states where the waking consciousness is present enough to remember, dreams begin to unlock the very foundation where manufacturing of reality takes place. This creative process comes down to one fundamental, communication. Thoughts and ideas are being exchanged on a creative universal scale. PRECOGNITIVE DREAMS If one should wake up and remember a visit to this precognitive state and remember some of the details. One's physical matter beliefs would start to change into something more profound. Imagine a dream where the contents convey a normal physical event. You wake up and clearly remember the dream. The dream is unique and you remember specific details. Then months go by and you forget the dream. One day, you decide to travel to a town that you have never been to before. And you go to a park to admire the waters. The people playing, the songbirds singing and every movement and physical expression starts to trigger some faint memory - déjà vu. You start pondering the déjà vu when a realization comes forward about your dream. It's the contents of that forgotten dream you had where the same people, the same park, and the same town was conveyed. You sit there feeling and seeing in perfect timing everything from the same perspective you had in the dream. Every detail of your dream matches the physical event. You may have had a dream come true before. It may have happen once, or twice. Perhaps you are the kind of person where this occurs on regular intervals, or perhaps you never had one. The fact is- people are having precognitive dreams. You could be having one right now for all I know and if so, please tell me about it as I am interested in knowing if this article you are reading is triggering some sense of familiarity that you attribute to a dream you once had. You would know because it triggers such a powerful déjà vu like awareness where the connection to the dream very strong. What are precognitive dreams? Are these future events? Why are people having them? Have you had them? If you haven't had a precognitive dream take some time to investigate them by asking friends, family, strangers, just about anyone you please to ask if they have experienced a dream, where months or years go by and this dream came true. If so, what is this phenomenon? My personal experience with dreams coming true is for myself epic. When I was 15, the first dream I had where I started to realize my dreams did somehow mimic physical reality was taken only as a surprisingly accurate coincidence. The event was a fight I was in where five people had jumped me. The distractions in the fight was my awareness that I had dreamt this fight and clearly remember going over the details of that dream months ago. The same people, the same area, the same results. I was amazed at how close a dream could be to an actual physical event. But I discarded it as being purely coincidental because dreams have no relative meaning in physical matter reality. During the same period, I had a friend who told me of experiences that came true after I told him about a dream where he was in that dream. I laughed at him and told him it was impossible, just a big coincidence. I completely ignored the early hints of this phenomenon. That didn't last to long. The early precognitive dreams were tempered warning signs of the storm that was about to hit my consciousness. When that storm hit, it hit with a force it changed me forever. The first metaphorical lightning-bolt to strike me seemed planned out. The timing of the next series of precognitive dreams was too overwhelming. Days after the fight, I thought about how my dream was so close to the physical event, and it was kind of disturbing. How could strangers of whom I never met before be familiar to me? Did I see them around town and subconsciously stored that information in some unknown reservoir where my dreams have access? I don't remember ever seeing them before. Even the clothes they wore, the beer they were drinking, my friends who were present during the fight, the location, the placement of the cars, the punches and kicks thrown, the resolution of the fight, all completely accurate in the finest detail to the physical event. Not one trace of inconstancy. It was too weird but the next few days became even weirder. Downstairs in my house I was watching a movie, "Evil Dead" with my sister and her friend. I had seen evil dead before and this event set me up for a major realization. The dream I had was similar. I was downstairs watching Evil Dead with my sister and the same friend was there as well, except here was the inconsistency: my sister's friend was not sitting with my sister, instead she was sitting with me and we had a blanket over top of us. She started to play with my feet, tickling them with her toes. Thinking to myself I laughed, "Yeah, dreams can be close to physical events but they are no-where accurate." My clear memory of the dream proved the inconsistency theory I was thinking about, it also set me up for the fall, which came next. I had seen Evil Dead before so at least that was familiar. But my sister's friend had not, and she was getting scared. Seeking refuge from her fears she walked over to the couch where I was sitting and sat beside. She said she felt safer sitting with me. She brought over a blanket from the other couch and threw it over top of me while covering herself. I started to get anxious. The familiarity level just took a ten-fold increase not to mention a sensation of déjà vu that was amplified by the precognitive dream I was realizing. All what I had remembered so clearly, and so accurately moments before happened. Every detail was now a match to the dream. Evil Dead was not as frightening to me as the fear that this precognitive realization brought to me. I was so frightened that something horrible was happening. Something no one could explain. It was relentless, the next day more and more events were coming out of the woodwork. Every corner I turned, every person I met, every thought I had soon became repetitive. There was nothing I didn't know wouldn't happen. The peak intensity of the next year was so strong that nothing could stop the surge of precognition I faced. I suffered as a result of it. I had no one to turn too, no place to go. I proved it to my closest friends, my mom. It was complicated by the start of lucid dreams and out-of-bodies and shared dreams. In one year, my entire perspective of reality changed forever. At age sixteen, I made a leap in consciousness that I never even considered a possibility. I never asked for it, I never wanted it. It just happened. The results were to clear, to concise for me to ignore. I suddenly didn't trust anyone. I became quite paranoid of other people, school, governments and science. My grades dropped, I was extremely depressed. I felt like some freak of nature, an alien in a fabricated world that could be nothing more than just my imagination externalized. I was in a black hole of familiarity and it scared me. I knew I wasn't crazy but this sort of thing wasn't supposed to happen. But it did, and I knew it. My feelings at that time can best be described like this; I felt like it was going through a loop. What I dreamt would soon be and all the thoughts, the emotions, and feelings I had could not stop nor change this. For whatever reasons, this intense level of precognition served its purpose. I could no longer deny the truth that dreams could convey a future event at a personal level in a hundred-percent-like fashion. Despite what others would argue to me against this truth I was realizing, their arguments were sometimes met with a demonstration of this precognition. This was rare and few but occurred none-the-less. I started to notice answers to why not everyone has precognitive dreams. And this was brought by the deterioration of this level of experience. For what ever reasons, it started to deteriorate and soon the familiar patterns were replaced with a distorted symbolic representation of physical events. The memory was altered when passing through some unknown distorting layer in my consciousness. But since it was symbolic, I could see where the symbolism did represent the future event but it was masked within a distorted field of my perception. For the most part, I feared that my psyche was destined for an eternity of living in some endless loop. My salvation came from my desire to figure out how all this was possible, and the answers came in ways that overpowered my ability to ignore them. THE CREATIVE PROCESS As you are probably aware, I am reducing the concepts of physical matter reality from being just a physical mass, to an energy pattern. It gets better or for worse. Many of you who lack the experience of what I have been and will be discussing may want to stop reading this manuscript in the light that it goes so totally against your beliefs about physical matter reality. Please bear in mind, they are still beliefs and I encourage you to stick this course through. We must clearly see why precognition exists. Why consciousness exists and why we exist. There is a truth in all of this. The fact we exist a fundamental for truth. It becomes a fundamental when we realize that "truth" is who we are. Truth is our awareness about ourselves combined with our awareness of the universe. My belief is- we can no more understand the workings of this externalized world if we do not understand the workings of our internal one. What if physical matter reality was nothing more than a pattern of thought that we share? What if we can communicate with other intelligent systems? What if there is a universal consciousness in which we are all parts? We are a part of this reality. We are made of the same particles and energy that makes up this universe. We all have some sense of our own existence in this physical universe. What if a creative intelligence was vital in the creation of physical matter reality? What if you are a part of that creative intelligence? What if all the patterns of energy that we sense around us are nothing more than the manifestations of patterned thought? How could physical matter reality exist purely as thought? Thoughts are created. Something thinks and the end result is the thought. Dreams are a subconscious form of thought. Precognitive dreams on the other hand are not to far from this creative process. To understand precognitive dreams, we must enter this level of dreamed of experience in a way where we can consciously explore it. Waking consciousness is who we are. In order to learn anything, we must be able to consciously perceive it. Lucid dreaming is one way to tap into this source. Another way, which relates to lucid dreams, is the out-of-body experience. Since this section has been on communication and dreams, we will look at a new form of lucid dreaming we can call, "Lucid Precognitive Dreams". These dreams are probably the most profound experience one can have. It strips away everything you may believe you are and replaces it with something more than just a belief. The results can be fantastic, awe-inspiring and forever changing. It is a good way for you to realize that you have the potential to consciously share in this creative spectrum of experiential existence. Lucid dreams have been researched over time. The average person who investigated dreaming usually can accept the possibility that they can achieve a state of lucidity in a dreamstate and have total control of that dream. Waking conscious is vital for exploring dreams. Lucid dreams are important for a more conscious view of ourselves. We will be looking at some very simple steps for achieving a lucid state in the dream. The most important thing to recognize is that you as a conscious participant in your dream-life hold every key to unlock these doors. Time, practice and determination should yield results and we will look at potential blockages that may arise due to fears, disbelief and poor sleeping patterns. Lucid Precognitive Dreams are the next step in dream exploration. The science that will evolve from people actively entering this state will be very interesting to say the least. It makes the most improbable possibility seem more probable. And the effort it takes to get there is relatively simple. Just not yet fully understood. Over the next couple of weeks, I will be addressing this thing called the creative process. The focus of our lucid dreams and out-of-bodies will be to uncover and unlock some of the hidden secrets of this creative field. My exploration of this state has illustrated to me that we are subconsciously already there. Knowing that will make it easier for subconscious information in that layer to slowly surface into our normal waking consciousness. The key has always and will always be what we can consciously be aware of. This course is designed to make the subconscious more conscious. Part two of an ongoing course in the exploration of consciousness Ian Wilson © 1998 all rights reserved. Iwilson@img.net 102 Andrew Place. Penticton BC V2A 6J6 (250)-493-5317 DISCLAIMER The material in this course is for your own personal investigation. I hereby make no claims outside my normal ability and desire that all information we exchange is on the most highest of sincerity, integrity and viewed only as shared thoughts and ideas about ourselves as systems of consciousness. This material is copyrighted with the permission to re-produce as long as the material is not altered and no financial exploitation of this material is sought. This course is completely free, and all the time and effort placed in part by myself is for us as a collective and I desire nothing financial from any source. I work long hard hours and this is my way to give freely to others who are seeking a deeper meaning in their lives than just living a life. This material is not to form any religious order of belief, nor form a religious organization and I take very little credit for what is universally ours except that I desire to share it with you in hopes we all can grow into better patterns of experience from knowledge, understanding, honesty and truth. If you do gain any growth from this course, and wish to share please feel free to contact me at the above preferably through e-mail since sharing in experience for me is all part of the benefits of raising our consciousness to newer levels of universal realization. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!sun4nl!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!qagi.demon.co.uk!qagi From: qagi Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:54:45 +0100 Organization: Foundation for Magical Gnome Research Message-ID: <3wBbWDAVo1W1EwJh@qagi.demon.co.uk> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: qagi.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: qagi.demon.co.uk:193.237.145.226 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 895229373 nnrp-03:10313 NO-IDENT qagi.demon.co.uk:193.237.145.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 <5ndx6PGOMSG8NqO4KsVYLxWKF2> Lines: 31 In article <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord>, Ian Wilson adds the following to the body of human wisdom, >DISCLAIMER >The material in this course is for your own personal investigation. I >hereby make no claims outside my normal ability and desire that all >information we exchange is on the most highest of sincerity, integrity and >viewed only as shared thoughts and ideas about ourselves as systems of >consciousness. This material is copyrighted with the permission to >re-produce as long as the material is not altered and no financial >exploitation of this material is sought. This course is completely free, >and all the time and effort placed in part by myself is for us as a >collective and I desire nothing financial from any source. I work long >hard hours and this is my way to give freely to others who are seeking a >deeper meaning in their lives than just living a life. This material is >not to form any religious order of belief, nor form a religious >organization and I take very little credit for what is universally ours >except that I desire to share it with you in hopes we all can grow into >better patterns of experience from knowledge, understanding, honesty and >truth. If you do gain any growth from this course, and wish to share >please feel free to contact me at the above preferably through e-mail since >sharing in experience for me is all part of the benefits of raising our >consciousness to newer levels of universal realization. > This is simply the best disclaimer i've ever read. By the way, i too will have nothing to do with any cults or churches thrown up in my name. Neither did Haile Selassie.(sp?) -- qagi a human being on a small blue planet. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!news.kddnet.ad.jp!news.tokyo.sannet.ad.jp!misc.twics.com!not-for-mail From: patanie@pasdepubhotmail.com (Claude Rifaat El-Sayed(son of Dr.Rifaat El-Sayed,ex Dr of His Majesty King Faysa) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 12:15:46 GMT Organization: Twics Co. Ltd., Japan http://www.twics.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp37-max01.twics.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Le 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT, "Ian Wilson" vous écrivîtes: "telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. They are figment of your imagination. Cheers, Claude ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!news.icix.net!not-for-mail From: Tom Mason Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 15:00:22 -0400 Organization: Intermedia Communications Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <355DE246.3AF5792B@empireone.net> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> Reply-To: tom267@hotmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp81.ppp.empireone.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) I like all the back up evidence included with this theory... --Tom patanie@pasdepubhotmail.com wrote: > Le 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT, "Ian Wilson" vous > écrivîtes: > > "telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. > They are figment of your imagination. > > Cheers, > > Claude ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 17 May 1998 22:00:36 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 31 Message-ID: <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.144.123 X-Trace: 895442436 AFJDQJSII907BCF22C usenet54.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > "telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. > They are figment of your imagination. Not for you perhaps. But one day, maybe "it" just might click. I have no way of forcasting if you should start experiencing precognition but if you start to take more notice of your dreamlife and start exploring the multiple layers of your consicousnessness and subconsciousness who knows what you may find. As for imagination, I wish. Then all those precognitive dreams, all those shared dreams, and all those lucid precogntive dreams came from that creative part of me, therefor, yeah, that figment of my imagination that creates reality. Cool, glad to have that in me. Imagination is a creative tool. Do you enjoy yours? Oh, wait you think "imagination" and "reality" are non-related. did you know if it wasn't for imagination, we wouldn't have computers, cars, medicine, buildings, airplanes, nuclear weapons and all the technical advances we have today? Did you know that a person first had to have a vision of that possibility before they ever attempted to create that into reality? Creative Intellegence plays an active role in both our scientific advancements and our cognitive advancements as well. Don't go kicking what an imaginative person brought to this world in their creative ponderings. Imaginative people are very creative, and that creativity brings things into an animalistic world where these things are unnatural to the natural process of normal evolutionary survival patterning. How do you explain why humans create so much? Where did some near hairless ape suddenly get inspired to start to paint? To communicate? To express itself in art and form? To learn and start to evolve a science as well? I call it "creative intellegence". ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!194.168.4.5!news7-gui.server.cableol.net!newsfeed.cableol.net!not-for-mail From: "John Gault" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 02:53:05 +0100 Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Lines: 12 Message-ID: <6jo3s8$6ej$1@nclient5-gui.server.virgin.net> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.168.63.231 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Claude Rifaat El-Sayed(son of Dr.Rifaat El-Sayed,ex Dr of His Majesty King Faysa) wrote in message <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com>... >Le 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT, "Ian Wilson" vous >écrivîtes: > >"telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. >They are figment of your imagination. > I KNEW HE WAS GOING TO SAY THAT!!!!! ;-) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!fu-berlin.de!cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: cijadra@zedat.fu-berlin.de Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:49:04 GMT Organization: Freie Universitaet Berlin Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.de (130.133.216.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Access: 16 17 18 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 895604497 3950 (none) 130.133.216.34 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 patanie@pasdepubhotmail.com (Claude Rifaat El-Sayed(son of Dr.Rifaat El-Sayed,ex Dr of His Majesty King Faysa) wrote: >Le 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT, "Ian Wilson" vous >écrivîtes: > >"telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. ...for you. Not understanding telepathy does not speak for your perception power, training will nor for your historic knowledge of the research of the human mind of thousands of years, hehe. Let me guess, magic and magic communication do not exist for you either, lol. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news.ncal.verio.com!not-for-mail From: Evan Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:01:00 -0700 Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: carina50.wco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Well, the O.G. poster seems to have reprimanded you and argued with you and everyone else seems to agree or disagree with you. I don't agree with you but I also don't see any way I can disagree with you. Unless I become enlightened I can't say for a fact that anything doesn't exist and in order to say something does exist without experiencing doubt requires either complete trust (doesn't often happen) or experiencing the event for myself. Therefore, I suggest that instead of arguing with people about this all those who DO believe but have doubt go on believing and do everything within their power to remove doubt (in other words develop precognitive powers). I suggest for all those who DON'T believe to do everything within their power to remove doubt (in other words, read everything about how to be precognitive and then practice it diligently). People believe only themselves ultimately. It is more profitable to make statements people might belive ("There are some beings with little dust on their eyes") or ask questions about what people believe than argue with them. Everyone ultimately decides for themselves. I can't believe what people sayin' You're gonna let your hair hang down patanie@pasdepubhotmail.com wrote: > > Le 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT, "Ian Wilson" vous > écrivîtes: > > "telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. > They are figment of your imagination. > > Cheers, > > Claude ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news.ncal.verio.com!not-for-mail From: Evan Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:06:19 -0700 Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3560F72B.63F1B600@wco.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: carina50.wco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Well, the O.G. poster seems to have reprimanded you and argued with you and everyone else seems to agree or disagree with you. I don't agree with you but I also don't see any way I can disagree with you. Unless I become enlightened I can't say for a fact that anything doesn't exist and in order to say something does exist without experiencing doubt requires either complete trust (doesn't often happen) or experiencing the event for myself. Therefore, I suggest that instead of arguing with people about this all those who DO believe but have doubt go on believing and do everything within their power to remove doubt (in other words develop precognitive powers). I suggest for all those who DON'T believe to do everything within their power to remove doubt (in other words, read everything about how to be precognitive and then practice it diligently). People believe only themselves ultimately. It is more profitable to make statements people might belive ("There are some beings with little dust on their eyes") or ask questions about what people believe than argue with them. Everyone ultimately decides for themselves. "And yesterday I saw you standing by the river And weren't those tears that filled your eyes? All those fish that lay in dirty water dyin' Had they got you hypnotized?" [don't know why I put this here, but I like it (its Led Zeppelin)] patanie@pasdepubhotmail.com wrote: > > Le 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT, "Ian Wilson" vous > écrivîtes: > > "telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. > They are figment of your imagination. > > Cheers, > > Claude ###### Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!uwm.edu!uwvax!uchinews!not-for-mail From: prcrotty@no.spam Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. X-Nntp-Posting-Host: howard-nfs.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Originator: prcrotty@midway.uchicago.edu (patrick randolph crotty) Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:44:06 GMT Lines: 51 In article <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord>, Ian Wilson wrote: >> "telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. >> They are figment of your imagination. > >Not for you perhaps. But one day, maybe "it" just might click. I have no >way of forcasting if you should start experiencing precognition but if you >start to take more notice of your dreamlife and start exploring the >multiple layers of your consicousnessness and subconsciousness who knows >what you may find. As far as I am concerned, someone is experiencing precognition only if they can repeatedly predict events before they occur. I know of no one who can do that. (And if you're precognitive yourself, shouldn't you be able to predict whether or not *he'll* become precognitive one day?) >As for imagination, I wish. Then all those precognitive dreams, all those >shared dreams, and all those lucid precogntive dreams came from that >creative part of me, therefor, yeah, that figment of my imagination that >creates reality. Cool, glad to have that in me. Imagination is a creative >tool. Do you enjoy yours? > >Oh, wait you think "imagination" and "reality" are non-related. did you >know if it wasn't for imagination, we wouldn't have computers, cars, >medicine, buildings, airplanes, nuclear weapons and all the technical >advances we have today? Did you know that a person first had to have a >vision of that possibility before they ever attempted to create that into >reality? Creative Intellegence plays an active role in both our scientific >advancements and our cognitive advancements as well. Don't go kicking what >an imaginative person brought to this world in their creative ponderings. >Imaginative people are very creative, and that creativity brings things >into an animalistic world where these things are unnatural to the natural >process of normal evolutionary survival patterning. How do you explain why >humans create so much? >Where did some near hairless ape suddenly get inspired to start to paint? >To communicate? To express itself in art and form? To learn and start to >evolve a science as well? I call it "creative intellegence". Semantic gymnastics. Creative people don't cause their ideas to become material by sheer force of will; they have to construct them. They *certainly* don't change external reality by dreaming. -- Patrick Crotty e-mail: prcrotty at midway.uchicago.edu home page: http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/prcrotty ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.fsu.edu!ibms48.scri.fsu.edu!jac From: jac@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 19 May 1998 00:04:16 GMT Organization: Supercomputer Computations Research Institute Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6jqia0$2d0$1@news.fsu.edu> References: <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: ibms48.scri.fsu.edu prcrotty@no.spam writes: > >As far as I am concerned, someone is experiencing precognition only >if they can repeatedly predict events before they occur. I predicted this stuff would continue to be posted to off-topic newsgroups. Does that count? -- James A. Carr | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_ http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/ | desired to this or any address Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst. | that resolves to my account Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306 | for any reason at any time. ###### From: null@notrealadr.com (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:39:33 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <3560d131.1805577@usenet.idirect.com> References: <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> <6jqia0$2d0$1@news.fsu.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: ts7-15t-34.idirect.com Lines: 18 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!ts7-15t-34.idirect.com On 19 May 1998 00:04:16 GMT, jac@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) wrote: >prcrotty@no.spam writes: >> >>As far as I am concerned, someone is experiencing precognition only >>if they can repeatedly predict events before they occur. > > I predicted this stuff would continue to be posted to off-topic > newsgroups. Does that count? Which newsgroup do you feel the posts are off-topic to? The subject matter of the posts include dreams, lucid dreams, the paranormal (telepathy and precognition), and out-of-body experiences. It looks like it is on-topic to all the specified newsgroups to me. regards, Enigma ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi References: <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> <6jqia0$2d0$1@news.fsu.edu> <3560d131.1805577@usenet.idirect.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:39:17 +0200 Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t2o204p6.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t2o204p6.telia.com Message-ID: <3561a776.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@i.telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t2o204p6.telia.com Yup, nothing off-topic here.... Enigma wrote in message <3560d131.1805577@usenet.idirect.com>... >On 19 May 1998 00:04:16 GMT, jac@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) wrote: > >>prcrotty@no.spam writes: >>> >>>As far as I am concerned, someone is experiencing precognition only >>>if they can repeatedly predict events before they occur. >> >> I predicted this stuff would continue to be posted to off-topic >> newsgroups. Does that count? > >Which newsgroup do you feel the posts are off-topic to? >The subject matter of the posts include dreams, lucid dreams, the >paranormal (telepathy and precognition), and out-of-body experiences. >It looks like it is on-topic to all the specified newsgroups to me. > >regards, >Enigma > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 19 May 1998 22:13:37 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 66 Message-ID: <01bd8373$33530b40$cb9022cf@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: 2109@207.34.144.203 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > As far as I am concerned, someone is experiencing precognition only > if they can repeatedly predict events before they occur. That is where you are in err, it is like assuming a person who plays golf can hit a hole-in-one off of every green. Precognition is deffinately a lot more than a game of golf. And in the swirling ocean of dream-experience we all can agree that not every dream has precognitive potential. Infact, if you fully consciously anticipate a dream you assume is precognitive, I have found that tends to be more likely that it won't occure. It's the softer, not so obvious dreams that appear more ghost like and harder to remeber that do. For me, I have a supremly hard time of gaining consciousness during my sleeping cycles. Then once there, it's another walk across a tightrope that I cannot see to some deepstate where this experience comes from. I wish it was easier. But who knows what practice may yeild. It's the results that pay off in the end, not the countless failures trying. It would be like Nasa giving up their funding on the Corona project when they were blowing rockets into oblivion trying to get them into space. They never gave up and got better and better as they understood and grew from their failures and experimentation. The successes I have gained keeps me growing in this feild of experience. And this is far more understudied and not-understood than firing rockets into space. It still occures. Many people experience them. > I know of no one who can do that. (And if you're precognitive yourself, > shouldn't you be able to predict whether or not *he'll* become precognitive one > day?) The way that precognition works for me is it occures sponataniously. Just something that ten years ago woke me up to the realization that it occures. And it's not as frequent as regular dreaming. But occures non-the-less. I have never predicted anything, prediction is as much guess work as anything. But if I have a dream that relates to this world and I tell someone or write it down, then the event occures, that's different. It's occuring from this precognitive feild at it's own "random" lesiure. My goal is to understand and know the process from which this occures. And for the most part, I think I am getting a much better handle of it. Based on what I know of our consciousness potential from my experience. He will at one point become precognitive, we all will since it occures naturally for us all in the more unconsicous states of our total consciousness. It's just a matter of when and how the subconscious releases this infomation to his consciousness. Something in him will determine that. Hopefully in this lifetime, and soon :) > Semantic gymnastics. Creative people don't cause their ideas to > become material by sheer force of will; they have to construct them. > They *certainly* don't change external reality by dreaming. I think I was being more specific to creative intelligence. But it came from a mentally concieved idea that they still created in their head first. The mechanical aspects of hammering it out is just a part of that intelligence having knowledge. So creating anything means you have to know how to create. Everything we create first starts as thought. There is no exception. Precognition opens a window that hints at the potential for thought to create entire reality systems. The fact our physical brain generates the one we subjectively exist in shows the power of our minds to create the reality we are. A good tactile dream also indicates the potential of our mind to not only re-create the physical matter reality we exist in, but construct a dream reality in which to exist in during a period of sleep. Precognitive dreaming bridges these two layers and makes them one. Cheers, Ian ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!WCG!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!not-for-mail From: Jaye Lee Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:37:21 -0700 Organization: Sprynet News Service Lines: 10 Message-ID: <35644A31.5573E99C@sprynet.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <6jo3s8$6ej$1@nclient5-gui.server.virgin.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sf-dnpqc-134.compuserve.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) John Gault wrote: > Heh, heh, heh :). > > > I KNEW HE WAS GOING TO SAY THAT!!!!! ;-) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "jc" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> <01bd8373$33530b40$cb9022cf@deathlord> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:17:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: cx52672-a.vista1.sdca.home.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:17:41 PDT Organization: @Home Network Ian Wilson wrote in message <01bd8373$33530b40$cb9022cf@deathlord>... >Infact, if you fully consciously anticipate a dream you assume >is precognitive, I have found that tends to be more likely that it won't >occure. How do you know this? Have you actually kept a journal of your dreams and written your mental state before the dream? If people with claims like this ever actually had any statistical data, even without the accuracy of a double blind experiment, it would all be taken more seriously. The remainder of your argument stating the possibility of the mind controlling matter is interesting - dates back to one of the original arguments (Platonic/Aristotlean Logic): Whether the mind is a product of the universe or the universe a product of the mind. Depending which of these two fundamental sides of the philosophical arguments you fall on is a direct reason for belief or disbelief in the ability of the mind to see into the future or control matter, etc. Those on the both sides of the argument still need to see "repeatability" and "testability". If something can't be tested to show the veracity of a given claim what value is the claim. I could claim to be an alien who is the savior of all mankind - even if I convince everyone that it is the truth - is it the truth? Testability..... I would like to believe in the ability of the mind to be more than it is, to be more than just trapped in flesh. I am open minded but clear headed, all I need is testability. Have stats? Have studies? In all sincerity show me two respectable studies that show any form of proven e.s.p. whether telekinetic or precognitive in nature. Show me two studies that are not speculative nor hearsay based and I will be willing to believe. enough rambling for now but the intent is serious I would like to see proof -jc ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "jc" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Lines: 42 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:33:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: cx52672-a.vista1.sdca.home.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:33:04 PDT Organization: @Home Network >Therefore, I suggest that instead of arguing with people about this all >those who DO believe but have doubt go on believing and do everything >within their power to remove doubt (in other words develop precognitive >powers). I suggest for all those who DON'T believe to do everything >within their power to remove doubt (in other words, read everything >about how to be precognitive and then practice it diligently). I totally agree with this statement but if the side without the e.s.p. is never to know or believe in those who have e.s.p. is it then two seperate truths? Either e.s.p. exists or it doesn't. This doesn't mean that everyone will have the ability to use it. Not everyone can run the 4 minute mile but that doesn't mean that no-one can. If e.s.p. exists then maybe only a few people a generation have the right genes, experiences, karma, whatever. But if it DOES exist, just like taking 100,000 people and watching them run as fast as they can, one of them will run under 4 minutes. And maybe 6 out of 10 times a group of 100,000 wil produce someone who can run under 4 minute miles. There would be proof. Why whenever claims are tested are they ALWAYS proven false? I have heard that they don't have the right tests? WHat are the right tests, let the psychics work with the scientists to develop testable experiments that will prove or disprove real telepathy. Let it withstand the real scrutiny of scientific theory with TRUE unbiased view to the data. This would end the speculation, the problem is just like the higher resolution pictures from Mars earlier this year. Assuming they were the actual photos, there was no mistaking that the face was indeed NOT a face. Yet we find people doggedly holding on to their beliefs in the face of cold unbiased facts. THe whole rambling logic circle I just went through brings me back to your point - People have to find out for themselves whether it exists or not. As I am one of those is e.s.p.-challenged - P.C. of the 21st century |-) - I would just like proof. -jc ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 22 May 1998 09:19:30 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 67 Message-ID: <01bd8563$4e6154e0$LocalHost@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> <01bd8373$33530b40$cb9022cf@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.144.105 X-Trace: 895828770 AFJDQJSII9069CF22C usenet14.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > How do you know this? Have you actually kept a journal of your dreams and > written your mental state before the dream? If people with claims like this > ever actually had any statistical data, even without the accuracy of a > double blind experiment, it would all be taken more seriously. When I was younger, I kept a hand written journal entry containing a lot of dreams that came true. I had even marked in the books the dates that the dreams came true. I used to keep all my OOBE's and every strange experience documented when I was 16-17. The downfall, and I have written about this was my parents reaction to all of this. Never mind some goverment conspiracy to silence me... My parents went on a holy crusade to destroy my life literally. Invasion of privacy, threats of being locked up. Wholy, a bitter pill I had to swallow. None-the-less, I proved unquestionably to my mom one day the truth of my expeirences and she was scared beyond belief. I have some old records, but during my persicution from my parents, I threw out the best of my journals. And literally threw all this away for good. No freedom to discuss in the familly, I was brutally psychologically abused by my familly in these early years in regards to this. None of which was pleasant to me. Even with the documents that show a dream come true, it's not enough to sway anyone. I realised this when I tried to prove it using documented facts to friends and teachers. The end result, I could have written that up anyways. Even if it was legitament, people rather believe fraud. I finally said, "Screw it, I know it exists and fuck y'all if your to stupid to figure it out for yourselves." Now that I am older, and could care less if people believe me or not. The fact remains, I have these experiences and I am growing stronger in them as I understand them more, as are people who I am teaching in understaning it better. The greatest power is proving it to yourself. And that is where I am mostly satisfied. > The remainder of your argument stating the possibility of the mind > controlling matter is interesting I will take it to a step a little further, I say that there is only mind. But this is viewing a mind outside the limits of the physical body. > I would like to believe in the ability of the mind to be more than it is, to > be more than just trapped in flesh. I am open minded but clear headed, all > I need is testability. Have stats? Have studies? In all sincerity show me > two respectable studies that show any form of proven e.s.p. whether > telekinetic or precognitive in nature. Show me two studies that are not > speculative nor hearsay based and I will be willing to believe. Do some ground work, I know that there is a lot of research being conducted on this in certain areas, I posted you a few leads to investigate. > enough rambling for now but the intent is serious I would like to see proof Check the photo, that is the best I can provide today. Tommorow is another thing entirely. The best proof is prooving it to yourself, techniques and theory coming soon. Good Luck, Ian ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!qagi.demon.co.uk!qagi From: qagi Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Followup-To: alt.out-of-body,alt.oobe,alt.paranet.psi Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:47:02 +0100 Organization: Foundation for Magical Gnome Research Message-ID: References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: qagi.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: qagi.demon.co.uk:193.237.145.226 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 895858003 nnrp-01:3574 NO-IDENT qagi.demon.co.uk:193.237.145.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike (32) Trial Version 3.05 Lines: 50 In article , jc adds the following to the body of human wisdom, >>Therefore, I suggest that instead of arguing with people about this all >>those who DO believe but have doubt go on believing and do everything >>within their power to remove doubt (in other words develop precognitive >>powers). I suggest for all those who DON'T believe to do everything >>within their power to remove doubt (in other words, read everything >>about how to be precognitive and then practice it diligently). > >I totally agree with this statement [example snipped] Actually, i completely disagree with this statement on the grounds of practicality. Life's too short to throw yourself into everything. I mean think about it logically- delete ESP (or whatever it is you're promoting) and replace it with anything (eg Zen Bhuddism, Stopping Bullets With Your Teeth Without Getting Hurt etc.) and you have a 'foolproof' method of convincing *everyone* to do *anything*. If only the people who love to accept/debunk "the paranormal" would *think* now and again about the logic of what they are saying... > Why whenever claims are >tested are they ALWAYS proven false? I have heard that they don't have the >right tests? WHat are the right tests, let the psychics work with the >scientists to develop testable experiments that will prove or disprove real >telepathy. Let it withstand the real scrutiny of scientific theory with >TRUE unbiased view to the data. > I quote (i think) Richard Feynman when i say "The thing we try to do..[ in science ]..is to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible." People who call themselves psychics *never* try to prove themselves wrong. What they do is to offer a complete theory of all sorts of things, based on the assumption that this theory is correct, even when shown to be wrong. At present, the accepted partial theories of causation and psychology do not suggest that telepathy occurs. The burden of proof is on the "psychics" to disprove them, or create a *consistent* partial theory which suggests that it does, without contradicting itself, using faulty logic or making false claims. I've killfiled this thread, and all threads started by Ian Wilson because of the completely unreasonable bandwidth requirements, the meaningless content, the off-topic posting, but most of all for the 350 Kb binary picture of himself. If you want to communicate re. this topic, please send me an email. (Followups changed) -- qagi a human being on a small blue planet ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mandoli@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi, Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:51:26 -0700 Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3565AD07.5BE8@ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> <01bd8373$33530b40$cb9022cf@deathlord> <01bd8563$4e6154e0$LocalHost@deathlord> Reply-To: mandoli@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: pax-ca1-06.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 22 11:42:05 AM CDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Ian Wilson wrote: > Check the photo, that is the best I can provide today. Tommorow is another > thing entirely. I did look at that photo and I have to say I didn't see anything unusual about the guy's forehead at all. Nothing there as far as I could see. ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:46:21 +0200 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t3o204p23.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t3o204p23.telia.com Message-ID: <35658f8d.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t3o204p23.telia.com Lines: 86 You mind is not a body. If everyone trained and trained well their whole life then they would most likely manage the 4 minutes test. But it is different with the mind. We all have the ability. We all dream. But it needs training to do these things. You need to know what to do. But with enough training, time and motivation we may all do it. And as the techniques gets better the easier it gets. Some have the ability naturally, some have to train, and some will never know the ability exist. The best way to convince you is that you do it yourself. It has certainly been statistically proven that normal people without training or anything may affect random calculations with just will power. That is called telekinesis. With training you may move even bigger objects. I'm sure it has been statistically proven that precognitive dreams occur, but I haven't seen it...yet. Have you never had the feeling that you feel that you have done or seen something before that you are doing at that moment. Some refer to it as déjà vu. I call it precognitive dreams. Most kids experience this. But when you grow older you more and more ignore your dreams and never think about them. Have you heard about remote viewing, I think that is the same thing. It was developed by the US military, do you think they are willing to spend a lot of money on something that doesn't work? Or at least something that statistically suggest that it might work. Just search the web, you will find a bunch of information. But for me, what Ian tells me is enough. jc wrote in message ... >>Therefore, I suggest that instead of arguing with people about this all >>those who DO believe but have doubt go on believing and do everything >>within their power to remove doubt (in other words develop precognitive >>powers). I suggest for all those who DON'T believe to do everything >>within their power to remove doubt (in other words, read everything >>about how to be precognitive and then practice it diligently). > >I totally agree with this statement but if the side without the e.s.p. is >never to know or believe in those who have e.s.p. is it then two separate >truths? Either e.s.p. exists or it doesn't. This doesn't mean that >everyone will have the ability to use it. Not everyone can run the 4 minute >mile but that doesn't mean that no-one can. If e.s.p. exists then maybe >only a few people a generation have the right genes, experiences, karma, >whatever. But if it DOES exist, just like taking 100,000 people and >watching them run as fast as they can, one of them will run under 4 minutes. >And maybe 6 out of 10 times a group of 100,000 will produce someone who can >run under 4 minute miles. There would be proof. Why whenever claims are >tested are they ALWAYS proven false? I have heard that they don't have the >right tests? What are the right tests, let the psychics work with the >scientists to develop testable experiments that will prove or disprove real >telepathy. Let it withstand the real scrutiny of scientific theory with >TRUE unbiased view to the data. > >This would end the speculation, the problem is just like the higher >resolution pictures from Mars earlier this >year. Assuming they were the actual photos, there was no mistaking that the >face was indeed NOT a face. Yet we find people doggedly holding on to their >beliefs in the face of cold unbiased facts. > >The whole rambling logic circle I just went through brings me back to your >point - People have to find out for themselves whether it exists or not. > >As I am one of those is e.s.p.-challenged - P.C. of the 21st century |-) - I >would just like proof. > >-jc > > > > > > ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:32:45 +0200 Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t3o204p23.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t3o204p23.telia.com Message-ID: <3565a877.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.linkline.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!uninett.no!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t3o204p23.telia.com I had planed to read you Consciousness explained, but now, well, I'm not that sure anymore. Since you say that it doesn't exist than you can't have much clue about what you are talking about. And you have been doing this for quite some time. No, I'm strongly in doubt that I have anything to learn from you. But since I respect every view, then maybe I have to read it anyway. Claude Rifaat El-Sayed(son of Dr.Rifaat El-Sayed,ex Dr of His Majesty King Faysa) wrote in message <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com>... >Le 14 May 1998 11:42:02 GMT, "Ian Wilson" vous >écrivîtes: > >"telepathy" and "precognition" DO NOT exist. >They are figment of your imagination. > >Cheers, > >Claude ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body,alt.oobe,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 22 May 1998 18:52:15 GMT Organization: Death Message-ID: <01bd85b3$3f1f54a0$7b9022cf@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.144.123 X-Trace: 895863135 AFJDQJSII907BCF22C usenet76.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 23 > I've killfiled this thread, and all threads started by Ian Wilson > because of the completely unreasonable bandwidth requirements, the > meaningless content, the off-topic posting, but most of all for the 350 > Kb binary picture of himself. If you want to communicate re. this topic, > please send me an email. If it's not your cup of tea, don't drink it. The picture is not of me. It is of a person I work with to whom I placed a visible mark on his forehead. If you want to accept that possibility or not, I don't care. But the fact that you can't identify the obvious fact that I stated clearly that it was not me, that it was a person named Kevin shows me you see only what you want to see. Nice picture perfect world you must live in. Ian here's my picture. http://www.personal.img.net/iwilson ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!newsm.ibm.net!ibm.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 22 May 1998 19:05:14 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 13 Message-ID: <01bd85b5$38aa46a0$7b9022cf@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <01bd81e0$02d346e0$7b9022cf@deathlord> <01bd8373$33530b40$cb9022cf@deathlord> <01bd8563$4e6154e0$LocalHost@deathlord> <3565AD07.5BE8@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.144.123 X-Trace: 895863914 AFJDQJSII907BCF22C usenet14.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > I did look at that photo and I have to say I didn't see anything unusual > about the guy's forehead at all. Nothing there as far as I could see. Zoom in to about 150% and step back a bit, the mark appears as a more red shade on the forhead. The quality is poor since it was a polaroid, my apologies, however it's the best I can provide with what little resources I have. My desire is to photograph some more with a professional camera. Cheers, Ian ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:29:03 +0200 Lines: 72 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t3o204p23.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t3o204p23.telia.com Message-ID: <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t3o204p23.telia.com YOU shouldn't have wasted bandwidth sending this reply. Nothing of what you said made any sense. The existence of psychic people have been proven many, many times. The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. Don't you worry about bandwidth, the internet if big enough for all of us. Take care... qagi wrote in message ... >In article , jc > adds the following to the body of human wisdom, >>>Therefore, I suggest that instead of arguing with people about this all >>>those who DO believe but have doubt go on believing and do everything >>>within their power to remove doubt (in other words develop precognitive >>>powers). I suggest for all those who DON'T believe to do everything >>>within their power to remove doubt (in other words, read everything >>>about how to be precognitive and then practice it diligently). >> >>I totally agree with this statement > >[example snipped] > >Actually, i completely disagree with this statement on the grounds of >practicality. Life's too short to throw yourself into everything. I mean >think about it logically- delete ESP (or whatever it is you're >promoting) and replace it with anything (eg Zen Bhuddism, Stopping >Bullets With Your Teeth Without Getting Hurt etc.) and you have a >'foolproof' method of convincing *everyone* to do *anything*. If only >the people who love to accept/debunk "the paranormal" would *think* now >and again about the logic of what they are saying... > >> Why whenever claims are >>tested are they ALWAYS proven false? I have heard that they don't have the >>right tests? What are the right tests, let the psychics work with the >>scientists to develop testable experiments that will prove or disprove real >>telepathy. Let it withstand the real scrutiny of scientific theory with >>TRUE unbiased view to the data. >> > >I quote (I think) Richard Feynman when i say "The thing we try to do..[ >in science ]..is to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible." >People who call themselves psychics *never* try to prove themselves >wrong. What they do is to offer a complete theory of all sorts of >things, based on the assumption that this theory is correct, even when >shown to be wrong. At present, the accepted partial theories of >causation and psychology do not suggest that telepathy occurs. The >burden of proof is on the "psychics" to disprove them, or create a >*consistent* partial theory which suggests that it does, without >contradicting itself, using faulty logic or making false claims. > >I've killfiled this thread, and all threads started by Ian Wilson >because of the completely unreasonable bandwidth requirements, the >meaningless content, the off-topic posting, but most of all for the 350 >Kb binary picture of himself. If you want to communicate re. this topic, >please send me an email. >(Followups changed) >-- >qagi >a human being on a small blue planet ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!uninett.no!due.unit.no!not-for-mail From: "Sturla Molden" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 23 May 1998 00:32:13 GMT Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 29 Message-ID: <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: borg-18.stud.ntnu.no X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... | Nothing of what you said made any sense. That depends on your knowlede of the philosophy of science. Most of it (all?) made sence to me and I guess it did so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. | The existence of psychic people have been proven | many, many times. | The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. If you make the claim that existance of psychic phenomena has been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or "established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. So what are your references? I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper documentation has been provided. Sturla Molden ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!xfer.kren.ne.kr!xfer.kren.nm.kr!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "jc" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Lines: 47 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 02:00:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: cx52672-a.vista1.sdca.home.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:00:25 PDT Organization: @Home Network Thank you Sturla. I try so hard to be receptive to things that are interesting, but I am and always will be a student of the marvel that launced us from medeval quakery - Scientific Theory. It was easy for scientists of old to make statements like "The body is broken into four humors: Black Bile, Green Bile,etc., etc. And the quantities of these each determine mood." This old method of understanding psychology and how moods/personalities were created sounds very foolish to us now, but only because it was DISPROVEN using scientific theory over time. If it is not repeatable, If it is not testable or observable by more than the person making the claim it effectively does not exist. Sturla Molden wrote in message <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla>... >Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen ><3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > >| Nothing of what you said made any sense. > >That depends on your knowlede of the philosophy of science. >Most of it (all?) made sence to me and I guess it did >so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. > >| The existence of psychic people have been proven >| many, many times. >| The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. > >First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. >If you make the claim that existance of psychic phenomena has >been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or >"established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. >So what are your references? > >I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper >documentation has been provided. > > >Sturla Molden > > > > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newshub2.home.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "jc" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <35658f8d.0@d2o204.telia.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Lines: 86 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <8kq91.2288$Kx3.2532062@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 02:16:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: cx52672-a.vista1.sdca.home.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:16:36 PDT Organization: @Home Network Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35658f8d.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >You mind is not a body. >If everyone trained and trained well their whole life then they would most >likely manage the 4 minutes test. Demonstrably false. >But it is different with the mind. >We all have the ability. >We all dream. To make the leap from lucid dreaming which IS a proven concept to the ability to control nature through dreams is a leap of logic with no founding. > >But it needs training to do these things. >You need to know what to do. >But with enough training, time and motivation we may all do it. >And as the techniques gets better the easier it gets. >Some have the ability naturally, some have to train, and some >will never know the ability exist. This goes back to my earlier point, you can not have two concurrent realities unless this is the ultimate Schrodenger (sp?) event. Either esp exists or it doesn't. It can't be both. To say that some will never be able to belive because they don't have the very ability in question is a logic circle. I will never have the cognitive ability to understand some of Hawking's theories, does that make them any less real, does that make them any less observable? >The best way to convince you is that you do it yourself. >It has certainly been statistically proven that normal people without >training or anything may affect random calculations with just >will power. Where? For you to have said this you must have read it. What studies, were these studies conducted in a scientific manner to ensure the removal of uncontrollabel variable? to remove unconscious bias like that proven found in "we gee" boards? (have no idea off the top of my head how to spell it - the boards with letters and numbers that a group all touch the same pointer object and ask questions) >With training you can move >even bigger objects. Training, to develop training you need observable results to determine if your methods are enabling those trained to improve. WIthout OBSERVABLE and TESTABLE results how is it even possible to develop real training methods to improve something that no one can see or prove exists? >Have you never had the feeling that you feel that you have done or seen >something before that you are doing at that moment. >Some refer to it as déjà vu. I call it precognitive dreams. >Most kids experience this. But when you grow older you more and more >ignore your dreams and never think about them. Yes I have experienced this, it is a common psychological phenomenon that would be even more interesting to discuss on a scientific level rather than a psychic level. >Have you heard about remote viewing, I think that is the same thing. >It was developed by the US military, do you think they are willing to >spend a lot of money on something that doesn't work? >Or at least something that statistically suggest that it might work. > >Just search the web, you will find a bunch of information. >But for me, what Ian tells me is enough. Do you believe anything you read on the web without factual data to support it? I have a wonderful bridge for sale, used but in wonderful condition, interested? When the Holy Crusaders were told that God wanted them to slaughter hundreds of thousands of unbelievers in his name that was enough also. > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 23 May 1998 03:37:24 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 113 Message-ID: <6k5g9k$731@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <35658f8d.0@d2o204.telia.com> <8kq91.2288$Kx3.2532062@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny77-50.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 22 10:37:24 PM CDT 1998 Can you spot the fallacy about 3/4 way down? In <8kq91.2288$Kx3.2532062@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> "jc" writes: > > >Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35658f8d.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >>You mind is not a body. >>If everyone trained and trained well their whole life then they would most >>likely manage the 4 minutes test. > > >Demonstrably false. > >>But it is different with the mind. >>We all have the ability. >>We all dream. > >To make the leap from lucid dreaming which IS a proven concept to the >ability to control nature through dreams is a leap of logic with no >founding. > >> >>But it needs training to do these things. >>You need to know what to do. >>But with enough training, time and motivation we may all do it. >>And as the techniques gets better the easier it gets. >>Some have the ability naturally, some have to train, and some >>will never know the ability exist. > >This goes back to my earlier point, you can not have two concurrent >realities unless this is the ultimate Schrodenger (sp?) event. Either esp >exists or it doesn't. It can't be both. To say that some will never be >able to belive because they don't have the very ability in question is a >logic circle. I will never have the cognitive ability to understand some of >Hawking's theories, does that make them any less real, does that make them >any less observable? > > >>The best way to convince you is that you do it yourself. >>It has certainly been statistically proven that normal people without >>training or anything may affect random calculations with just >>will power. > >Where? For you to have said this you must have read it. What studies, were >these studies conducted in a scientific manner to ensure the removal of >uncontrollabel variable? to remove unconscious bias like that proven found >in "we gee" boards? (have no idea off the top of my head how to spell it - >the boards with letters and numbers that a group all touch the same pointer >object and ask questions) > >>With training you can move >>even bigger objects. > >Training, to develop training you need observable results to determine if >your methods are enabling those trained to improve. WIthout OBSERVABLE and >TESTABLE results how is it even possible to develop real training methods to >improve something that no one can see or prove exists? > > >>Have you never had the feeling that you feel that you have done or seen >>something before that you are doing at that moment. >>Some refer to it as déjà vu. I call it precognitive dreams. >>Most kids experience this. But when you grow older you more and more >>ignore your dreams and never think about them. > >Yes I have experienced this, it is a common psychological phenomenon that >would be even more interesting to discuss on a scientific level rather than >a psychic level. > >>Have you heard about remote viewing, I think that is the same thing. >>It was developed by the US military, do you think they are willing to >>spend a lot of money on something that doesn't work? >>Or at least something that statistically suggest that it might work. >> >>Just search the web, you will find a bunch of information. >>But for me, what Ian tells me is enough. > >Do you believe anything you read on the web without factual data to support >it? > >I have a wonderful bridge for sale, used but in wonderful condition, >interested? > >When the Holy Crusaders were told that God wanted them to slaughter hundreds >of thousands of unbelievers in his name that was enough also. > > >> > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!ultra.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: Evan Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:42:40 -0700 Organization: Sonic,Santa Rosa CA,http://www.sonic.net Lines: 90 Message-ID: <356A2C20.7F73EF89@sonic.net> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d113.pm10.sonic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Alright, a while ago I sent a message explaining that the best way to work is not to blatantly disagree with something. This is based on my experiences talking to people. This message was followed by various replies. The first reply(jc) was good. It did not disagree with me, he said: > I totally agree with this statement but if the side without the e.s.p. is > never to know or believe in those who have e.s.p. is it then two seperate > truths? Either e.s.p. exists or it doesn't. This doesn't mean that > everyone will have the ability to use it. Not everyone can run the 4 minute > mile but that doesn't mean that no-one can. If e.s.p. exists then maybe > only a few people a generation have the right genes, experiences, karma, > whatever. But if it DOES exist, just like taking 100,000 people and > watching them run as fast as they can, one of them will run under 4 minutes. > And maybe 6 out of 10 times a group of 100,000 wil produce someone who can > run under 4 minute miles. instead of saying "you are wrong" he speculated on some possible problems of always having to test. The answer to this problem is simple: causality. For every effect, (esp, for example) there are causes and conditions which bring it into being. If those causes and conditions are developed, then the effect will happen. Thus, bringing the causes about brings the effects about. This only poses problems when some of the causes are gene specific or otherwise "uncontrollable". Other people responding to me decided to disagree with me or to each other. OK, first, I say its better not to disagree. Then you disagree. I still don't believe you. How did you're response do anything? Your response only caused me to become biased against you because my brain gouped you with the "people who disagree with me" category. That's all. People are here in this newsgroup for 3 reasons: 1. to learn 2. to teach 3. to argue Learning is helped by asking questions. Disagreeing with someone trying to teach doesn't help learning. Teaching is done by saying what is TRUE. Remember that the object of the disciple is to establish TRUTH. You don't begin a science course by telling all your students how aristotle was wrong about his floating thoery (that shape determines bouyancy). You start by telling them that things float because of their comparitive density. Arguing is what people are doing when they say "you are wrong because...". I do not want to make a point of discrediting arguing as a form of recreation. Arguing can be fun, I know this. However, Arguing is not conducive to improved teaching or learning. Which is why it doesn't have a place in some discussions. Also, sometimes arguing can lead to a feeling of the superiority in the winner and inferiority in the loser. This draws attention to the third chakra (power). Using this chakra is not conducive to increased happiness and decreased sufferring. I am not entirely sure of the truth of that last paragraph but that's the way it seems to me. Anyway, what I have been doing here is holding up a doctrine that says "this is the way it is". I hold it up so that those willing to learn may benefit. I thus, am a teacher. My object is to state truth. My object is not to refute other people's display of truth. Those who view this message are (hopefully) Learners. They should look for whatever it is that they can get out of this message. That is how one learns. If there is a question they should ask it. If they don't agree with this then that is the way it is. They have not learned anything from this message. They should look for another message they can learn something from. Those who are only interested in a "juicy argument" are not conducive to my purpose. Therefore I will not respond to them. May it be noted that the only reason I responded in the first place is to try and clarify my teaching and perhaps state it in a different way. If I think of a new clearer way to state this because of some arguments made against it which reveal misconceptions about the nature of my teaching, then I will do so. If I do not, I will not respond because it is not conducive to my purpose. Evan (eww, that was a little too serious there. After all, its not like my life depends on you believing this. Sorry about that) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Zac Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:16:16 -0700 Organization: none Lines: 56 Message-ID: <356A5020.58D@geocities.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: psycho_dude@geocities.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ple-ca8-11.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 26 12:16:10 AM CDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) F. Frank LeFever wrote: > > In <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" > writes: > > > >I have contact with more than 20 psychic people.... > >They have probably documentation of psychic phenomena or > >can at least make some. > > > >But my goal is not to convince you, so I will not even bother to think > >about it. > > > >Even if you read a "document" that says that there is such a thing > >as psychic people you will not be fully convinced before you > experience > >it yourself. > > > > > >Sturla Molden wrote in message <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla>... > >>Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen > >><3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > >> > >>| Nothing of what you said made any sense. > >> > >>That depends on your knowlede of the philosophy of science. > >>Most of it (all?) made sence to me and I guess it did > >>so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. > >> > >>| The existence of psychic people have been proven > >>| many, many times. > >>| The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. > >> > >>First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. > >>If you make the claim that existance of psychic phenomena has > >>been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or > >>"established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. > >>So what are your references? > >> > >>I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper > >>documentation has been provided. > >> > >> > >>Sturla Molden > >> > > Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" > blabbering elicits? If you have no respect or need for scientific > methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? Go find your > own friends to play with. > Last time I checked this (alt.out-of-body) was not a purely scientific newsgroup plus this thread somehow got into too many newsgroups to actually remain relevent in all of the newsgroups. --- -Zac ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!nntp.abs.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Zac Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:40:08 -0700 Organization: none Lines: 46 Message-ID: <356A55B8.2FC2@geocities.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> Reply-To: psycho_dude@geocities.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ple-ca8-11.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 26 12:40:01 AM CDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) Sturla Molden wrote: > > Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen > <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > > | Nothing of what you said made any sense. > > That depends on your knowlede of the philosophy of science. > Most of it (all?) made sence to me and I guess it did > so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. > > | The existence of psychic people have been proven > | many, many times. > | The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. > > First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. > If you make the claim that existance of psychic phenomena has > been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or > "established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. > So what are your references? Even if you had documentation you probably would still disbelive in psychic phenomena. It is really something that must be experienced to be belived. Also, most psychic phenomena cannot be documented because it is abstract, hard to control to provable results and almost completly subjective. About the only psychic power that isn't subjective is telekinesis(psychokinesis) because if you see an object move in a lab condition you can't rationalize it as the wind or some other natural occurance. > > I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper > documentation has been provided. > Yes, it is a human right, but if you distrust all claims you will learn nothing from anyone and will be closed minded. You can also say that someone else's point is invalid but that is just proof of being closed minded. We are all here to learn from each other not to argue over whose point of view is correct. Viewpoints are not right or wrong, only different. I find science works well for things that are tangible but are just as good as occult views when it comes to things such as psychic phenomena which is abstract. > Sturla Molden -- -Zac ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 26 May 1998 03:02:51 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 63 Message-ID: <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny78-28.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon May 25 8:02:51 PM PDT 1998 In <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" writes: > >I have contact with more than 20 psychic people.... >They have probably documentation of psychic phenomena or >can at least make some. > >But my goal is not to convince you, so I will not even bother to think >about it. > >Even if you read a "document" that says that there is such a thing >as psychic people you will not be fully convinced before you experience >it yourself. > > >Sturla Molden wrote in message <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla>... >>Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen >><3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >> >>| Nothing of what you said made any sense. >> >>That depends on your knowlede of the philosophy of science. >>Most of it (all?) made sence to me and I guess it did >>so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. >> >>| The existence of psychic people have been proven >>| many, many times. >>| The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. >> >>First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. >>If you make the claim that existance of psychic phenomena has >>been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or >>"established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. >>So what are your references? >> >>I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper >>documentation has been provided. >> >> >>Sturla Molden >> Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" blabbering elicits? If you have no respect or need for scientific methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? Go find your own friends to play with. >> >> >> >> > > ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 03:30:07 +0200 Lines: 44 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p46.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p46.telia.com Message-ID: <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p46.telia.com I have contact with more than 20 psychic people.... They have probably documentation of psychic phenomena or can at least make some. But my goal is not to convince you, so I will not even bother to think about it. Even if you read a "document" that says that there is such a thing as psychic people you will not be fully convinced before you experience it yourself. Sturla Molden wrote in message <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla>... >Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen ><3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... > >| Nothing of what you said made any sense. > >That depends on your knowlede of the philosophy of science. >Most of it (all?) made sence to me and I guess it did >so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. > >| The existence of psychic people have been proven >| many, many times. >| The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. > >First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. >If you make the claim that existance of psychic phenomena has >been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or >"established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. >So what are your references? > >I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper >documentation has been provided. > > >Sturla Molden > > > > > ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <35658f8d.0@d2o204.telia.com> <8kq91.2288$Kx3.2532062@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 04:42:44 +0200 Lines: 109 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p46.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p46.telia.com Message-ID: <356a2be9.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p46.telia.com Never understand hawking's theories, what kind of bs it that? I'm sure that if you try hard enough you will be able to understand them. Especially if you get help. Willpower....yes I have read about it in a scientific magazine I subscribe to. Their homepage can be found here: http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ This is not the homepage of the magazine, but those to who conducted the studies. And yes, I believe anything I read on the web that makes sense to me. And as I learn more and more, even more things make sense. And in the end everything will make sense and I will see the connection. jc wrote in message <8kq91.2288$Kx3.2532062@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>... > >Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <35658f8d.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >>You mind is not a body. >>If everyone trained and trained well their whole life then they would most >>likely manage the 4 minutes test. > > >Demonstrably false. > >>But it is different with the mind. >>We all have the ability. >>We all dream. > >To make the leap from lucid dreaming which IS a proven concept to the >ability to control nature through dreams is a leap of logic with no >founding. > >> >>But it needs training to do these things. >>You need to know what to do. >>But with enough training, time and motivation we may all do it. >>And as the techniques gets better the easier it gets. >>Some have the ability naturally, some have to train, and some >>will never know the ability exist. > >This goes back to my earlier point, you can not have two concurrent >realities unless this is the ultimate Schrodenger (sp?) event. Either esp >exists or it doesn't. It can't be both. To say that some will never be >able to belive because they don't have the very ability in question is a >logic circle. I will never have the cognitive ability to understand some of >Hawking's theories, does that make them any less real, does that make them >any less observable? > > >>The best way to convince you is that you do it yourself. >>It has certainly been statistically proven that normal people without >>training or anything may affect random calculations with just >>will power. > >Where? For you to have said this you must have read it. What studies, were >these studies conducted in a scientific manner to ensure the removal of >uncontrollabel variable? to remove unconscious bias like that proven found >in "we gee" boards? (have no idea off the top of my head how to spell it - >the boards with letters and numbers that a group all touch the same pointer >object and ask questions) > >>With training you can move >>even bigger objects. > >Training, to develop training you need observable results to determine if >your methods are enabling those trained to improve. WIthout OBSERVABLE and >TESTABLE results how is it even possible to develop real training methods to >improve something that no one can see or prove exists? > > >>Have you never had the feeling that you feel that you have done or seen >>something before that you are doing at that moment. >>Some refer to it as déjà vu. I call it precognitive dreams. >>Most kids experience this. But when you grow older you more and more >>ignore your dreams and never think about them. > >Yes I have experienced this, it is a common psychological phenomenon that >would be even more interesting to discuss on a scientific level rather than >a psychic level. > >>Have you heard about remote viewing, I think that is the same thing. >>It was developed by the US military, do you think they are willing to >>spend a lot of money on something that doesn't work? >>Or at least something that statistically suggest that it might work. >> >>Just search the web, you will find a bunch of information. >>But for me, what Ian tells me is enough. > >Do you believe anything you read on the web without factual data to support >it? > >I have a wonderful bridge for sale, used but in wonderful condition, >interested? > >When the Holy Crusaders were told that God wanted them to slaughter hundreds >of thousands of unbelievers in his name that was enough also. > > >> > > ###### From: null@notrealadr.com (Enigma) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:24:18 GMT Organization: the void that is not void Message-ID: <356ad758.2128618@usenet.idirect.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <356ad0a8.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 NNTP-Posting-Host: alphanet8.idirect.com Lines: 36 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!island.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!alphanet8.idirect.com On Tue, 26 May 1998 16:20:51 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" wrote: >I have an education in science myself. But I can't help it that this post is >crossposted in several groups. Anyway, I subscribe to a lot of science Hi Lars, Actually you can help it if this post is crossposted to several groups. Claude Rifaat added the newsgroups bionet.neuroscience and sci.physics when he responded to Ian's post. People from those groups have a right to complain about this thread being off-topic, I would think. It is a good idea to always check the newsgroups list in the header of a post when replying to a post to make sure it is not being cross-posted to unrelated newsgroups. I have removed all newsgroups from the newsgroups list in the header of this post except alt.out-of-body so as not to bother the folks in the other newsgroups with this reply, since I know you read alt.out-of-body. (Sorry to the folks in alt.out-of-body for this off-topic post.) BTW, getting into debates with skeptics is usually pointless unless you have something specific that you want to prove to them with solid evidence. Otherwise you'll probably just end up getting into long drawn-out arguments that go nowhere. regards, Enigma ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:20:51 +0200 Lines: 91 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t2o204p48.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t2o204p48.telia.com Message-ID: <356ad0a8.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uninett.no!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t2o204p48.telia.com F. Frank LeFever wrote in message <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>... >In <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" > writes: >> >>I have contact with more than 20 psychic people.... >>They have probably documentation of psychic phenomena or >>can at least make some. >> >>But my goal is not to convince you, so I will not even bother to think >>about it. >> >>Even if you read a "document" that says that there is such a thing >>as psychic people you will not be fully convinced before you >experience >>it yourself. >> >> >>Sturla Molden wrote in message <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla>... >>>Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen >>><3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >>> >>>| Nothing of what you said made any sense. >>> >>>That depends on your knowledge of the philosophy of science. >>>Most of it (all?) made sense to me and I guess it did >>>so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. >>> >>>| The existence of psychic people have been proven >>>| many, many times. >>>| The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. >>> >>>First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. >>>If you make the claim that existence of psychic phenomena has >>>been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or >>>"established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. >>>So what are your references? >>> >>>I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper >>>documentation has been provided. >>> >>> >>>Sturla Molden >>> > >Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" >blabbering elicits? If you have no respect or need for scientific >methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? Go find your >own friends to play with. > I have an education in science myself. But I can't help it that this post is crossposted in several groups. Anyway, I subscribe to a lot of science magazine, in one of them was a big article that telekinesis has been proven to exist. It was actually the head-line. The research have been done by a university for many, many years. The answer is clear. Telekinesis is a fact. Check out for yourself: http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ So when you may move objects with your mind then all the other things that psychic claims to be a fact might also be true. Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try to do. Not sure where you read this post, but I guess it was on physics or neuroscience. But this post was also posted to paranet.psi and alt.out-of-body. I guess I will find my friends there, but you are so lucky that I'm playing with you too. I have seen many unexplained things on TV and read about even more. I do not like you sit around and wait for the proof to fall on my lap, I'm instead out and searching for more info about the subject. Trying to find an explanation. Like one thing I saw on TV, it was sent on "The paranormal wold of Paul McKenna". There was a man that was capable of sending a lot of electrons through his body. (Electricity) It was just like static electricity, but this guy managed to send as many electrons through his finger for as long as he wanted. This was just one of many things I saw that he was capable of doing. So the paranormal is out there, you just have to find it. I don't discharge the paranormal just because you can't read one single word about it in the science book. If you had had any interest in the paranormal I guess you would be convinced too. I certainly am. My way of thinking is like this: Okay, so telekinesis is possible, right, what else is possible? An open minded attitude that will bring me far. ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:30:11 +0200 Lines: 104 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t2o204p48.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t2o204p48.telia.com Message-ID: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!fci-se!fci!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t2o204p48.telia.com That guy Frank think he is so smart..... Changing the reply newsgroups so that this message will not arrive that those newsgroups. Well, it was you I wanted to send this message to, so I'm sending this message once more.... Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message ... > >F. Frank LeFever wrote in message <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>... >>In <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" >> writes: >>> >>>I have contact with more than 20 psychic people.... >>>They have probably documentation of psychic phenomena or >>>can at least make some. >>> >>>But my goal is not to convince you, so I will not even bother to think >>>about it. >>> >>>Even if you read a "document" that says that there is such a thing >>>as psychic people you will not be fully convinced before you >>experience >>>it yourself. >>> >>> >>>Sturla Molden wrote in message <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla>... >>>>Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen >>>><3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >>>> >>>>| Nothing of what you said made any sense. >>>> >>>>That depends on your knowledge of the philosophy of science. >>>>Most of it (all?) made sense to me and I guess it did >>>>so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. >>>> >>>>| The existence of psychic people have been proven >>>>| many, many times. >>>>| The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. >>>> >>>>First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. >>>>If you make the claim that existence of psychic phenomena has >>>>been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or >>>>"established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. >>>>So what are your references? >>>> >>>>I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper >>>>documentation has been provided. >>>> >>>> >>>>Sturla Molden >>>> >> >>Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" >>blabbering elicits? If you have no respect or need for scientific >>methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? Go find your >>own friends to play with. >> > > >I have an education in science myself. But I can't help it that this post is >crossposted in several groups. Anyway, I subscribe to a lot of science >magazine, in one of them was a big article that telekinesis has been >proven to exist. It was actually the head-line. >The research have been done by a university for many, many years. >The answer is clear. Telekinesis is a fact. Check out for yourself: >http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ > >So when you may move objects with your mind then all the other things >that psychic claims to be a fact might also be true. Actually, telekinesis >is the most difficult thing a psychic might try to do. > >Not sure where you read this post, but I guess it was on physics or >neuroscience. But this post was also posted to paranet.psi and >alt.out-of-body. I guess I will find my friends there, but you are so >lucky that I'm playing with you too. I have seen many unexplained >things on TV and read about even more. I do not like you sit around >and wait for the proof to fall on my lap, I'm instead out and searching >for more info about the subject. Trying to find an explanation. > >Like one thing I saw on TV, it was sent on "The paranormal wold of >Paul McKenna". There was a man that was capable of sending a lot >of electrons through his body. (Electricity) >It was just like static electricity, but this guy managed to send as many >electrons through his finger for as long as he wanted. This was just one >of many things I saw that he was capable of doing. >So the paranormal is out there, you just have to find it. > >I don't discharge the paranormal just because you can't read one single >word about it in the science book. >If you had had any interest in the paranormal I guess you would be convinced >too. I certainly am. > >My way of thinking is like this: >Okay, so telekinesis is possible, right, what else is possible? > >An open minded attitude that will bring me far. > > ###### Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!192.52.106.6!ncar!uchinews!not-for-mail From: prcrotty@no.spam Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. X-Nntp-Posting-Host: howard-nfs.uchicago.edu Message-ID: Originator: prcrotty@midway.uchicago.edu (patrick randolph crotty) Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: The University of Chicago References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:37:34 GMT Lines: 26 In article <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com>, Lars Rune Foleide wrote: >I have contact with more than 20 psychic people.... >They have probably documentation of psychic phenomena or >can at least make some. > >But my goal is not to convince you, so I will not even bother to think >about it. Then why in God's name are you cross-posting to two science newsgroups? >Even if you read a "document" that says that there is such a thing >as psychic people you will not be fully convinced before you experience >it yourself. I wouldn't be even partially convinced if I read something which said merely, "psychic people exist." I would, however, be consederiably more convinced if that same document detailed a controlled, rigorous experiment which validated claims of psychic phenomena. -- Patrick Crotty e-mail: prcrotty at midway.uchicago.edu home page: http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/prcrotty ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!fu-berlin.de!cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: cijadra@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Cijadrachon) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:48:13 GMT Organization: Freie Universitaet Berlin Lines: 147 Message-ID: <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.de (130.133.216.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Access: 16 17 18 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 896317266 1138 (none) 130.133.216.34 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 >>>Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" >>>blabbering elicits? I think the shame,blabbering and silly stuff is to do with you. I would like more data in what he says, but even just like that find it intersting. >If you have no respect or need for scientific >>>methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? To censor yourself to 5 senses and then ignore them, too, is of course seeing to some rather silly theories, but some stuff is also interesting. Maybe because you are limiting yourself in that way, you think that all others have to do the same, and cannot understand that there are a lot of people who keep vague track within many of the branches of research of the people's of Earth. Maybe when you advance a bit inside some day you might come to realize that when people(s) are busying themselves for (thousands of) years with exploring or improving something, that often it is worth to take a look at the results they have come up with, even if there might be some mistakes in them. >>I have an education in science myself. Well, looking that at the time when I had to do with Western education they were still teaching that we have 5 senses, were silent about what senses people were burned for using for hundreds of years, were teaching that heat, light, matter and energy are very different things and that there are three worlds, that Charles and Alexander were GREAT, that killing people, grabbing their land and plundering it is termed "colonialism" and that the center of the human mind likely is in the frontal cortex or in no place and that therefore it is O.K. to say that we are better animals than others and that other mammales and birds, are therefore not "who"s but "it"s, .... I am not sure if that statement is to be taken positive or to be meaning that you were taught to ignore the senses leading to magic and only have crippled abilities in them and learned to ignore even the few senses left to you after that censoring, to follow Western pregiven tracks... > Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try to do. Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and extending life for centuries might be more tricky. But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first place. >>out-of-body How does one do that? I have seen people doing it, but myself I never managed, though I can extend headfields a bit. If one were to go step by step, how does it work? Especially the bit of going out in detail? > I do not like you sit around and wait for the proof to fall on my lap, I'm instead out and searching >>for more info about the subject. Trying to find an explanation. "If the mountain does not come to the prophet, the prophet has to go to the mountain..." > but this guy managed to send as many >>electrons through his finger for as long as he wanted. I don't know about electrons, but there is power you can get from breathing, and if I transfer from the brain to another brain I can go for many minutes in a row. Some of the others said they also tap into external energies. Some even said that it is possible to tap into other people's energies. >>So the paranormal is out there, you just have to find it. I am not sure if I'd term it paranormal. A lot for me is just magic, as has been practiced for thousands of years. >> just because you can't read one single >>word about it I am not sure if reading would help that much in many cases. Personally I'd prefer if the person would link with my systems and then try to teach rather direct if that is possible. And with head energy shifts if they let me dock into their head, so that I can get rather direct energy transfers. And for all I know that is the old way of transferring magical data. A lot of cultures never used books, because there is so much that you can transfer if you transfer directly, that to go via words would be rather limiting, especially when it comes to understanding telepathy, energy connections and so on. >>Okay, so telekinesis is possible, right, what else is possible? Sometimes when I was in someones head with my energies they stopped connection and were scared. And there are areas where I do not dare to "fire" into. Going by instincts and stories part of the answer would be: Altering energies in many cells, making new axon pathways, healing people, killing people, diagnosing, altering brain energy levels to more stable and controlled if someone is falling awake near the dream-ranges and goes hallucinating against his will, communicating with the energyfields of reently dead people and mediating to the living, keeping dead people longer from decay by docking into their body and head maybe even hours every day and countering decay with your alive energies (in this case linking body and brain sectors' energies parallel into the according decaying cells of the dead one), determining with someone who is in coma how far (s)he is gone, taking over some functions to an extent if someone is unconscious or in coma, practicing to stay awake in dreams, then awake go down to the dream ranges and later the death ranges to perceive and send in the according ranges, send and perceive for thousands of km, communicate with other people far away that way, go through the Earth-fields and far through space, according to some folks communicate with odd conscious energy forms perceivable on the other ranges here on Earth, some of which do not seem to origin from Earth, "hold" the entire akasha of your hand or hole body so that you are able to use the space between the atoms and electrons to shift it through something else, perceive events of the past, go to bed before midnight and when you are asleep stay awake in the dream and extend your fields/energies through the walls to someone whom you hate, dock into his brain's waking centers to make sure he wakes up and pereives your energy form next to his bed, and do so every midnight, and then at some point mention with an evil stare that you had some witch put a curse on him and that he is doomed, use the evil stare, "record" his energy patterns so you can locate him from far away and then just keep "firing" disrupter fields into his thymus and into areas in the brain down behind the ears deep inside and some other areas, use stones and Earth-fields, use other('s) energies as a tuner, dock with other magicians and let them run part of your systems centrally until after days and months transmitter heights change and connections (axons, dendrites) start to restructure according to their inputs and you can get the power-patterns transferred in far better ways, and may receive results of thousands of years of human research and become a guardian and keeper of the old knowledge yourself... And be recognized by others who are and who might be the guardians, teachers, healers, ... of their clan, tribe or religion, and some of whom migh then be willing to share more with you... But then again some people tell a lot of nonsense of they are bored, hehe, ... ;-) So don't give too much to what I said, just thought you might find the answer interesting. Simplified the limits of magic are the limits of the universe and of the own systems. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ais.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 27 May 1998 01:39:24 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 61 Message-ID: <6kfqsc$sso@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny76-60.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue May 26 8:39:24 PM CDT 1998 In <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" writes: > >That guy Frank think he is so smart..... >Changing the reply newsgroups so that this message will not arrive that >those >newsgroups. Well, it was you I wanted to send this message to, so I'm >sending >this message once more.... > >>>>> >>> >>>Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" >>>blabbering elicits? If you have no respect or need for scientific >>>methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? Go find your >>>own friends to play with. >>> >> >> >>I have an education in science myself. No evidence of it in what you post. But I can't help it that this post >is >>crossposted in several groups. Yes you can: delete some of the groups. Anyway, I subscribe to a lot of science >>magazine, There are many popular "science" magazines catering to the ill-informed and credulous; not to be confused with peer-reviewed scentific journals, which is what scientists read. in one of them was a big article that telekinesis has been >>proven to exist. Sounds like one of those journalistic prostitution venues... >>It was actually the head-line. ACTUALLY! Do you suppose this was intended to sell that rag? >>The research have been done by a university for many, many years. I hope you don't mean Duke University; Rhine's lab was funded by other sources and I believe it continues to be a source of embarassment to the university. >>The answer is clear. Telekinesis is a fact. Check out for yourself: >>http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ >> ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kfqsc$sso@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:40:08 +0200 Lines: 81 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p15.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p15.telia.com Message-ID: <356c339c.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p15.telia.com F. Frank LeFever wrote in message <6kfqsc$sso@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>... >>>I have an education in science myself. > >No evidence of it in what you post. > Not in your either... All you can do is to ask for evidence... I have only been in this game for only a month or two. So I haven't had the time to dig up evidence yet. And when you dispose proof just because they have gotten a bad rumor just because of what they are trying to prove, then there is no wonder why this information is so difficult to get out the people. When scientists can't accept facts, then why should the common people do it? >Yes you can: delete some of the groups. > Sorry, can't do that when the person I'm trying to reach is on one of the groups that you want to be deleted. > > Anyway, I subscribe to a lot of science >>>magazine, > >There are many popular "science" magazines catering to the ill-informed >and credulous; not to be confused with peer-reviewed scientific >journals, which is what scientists read. > Not sure where you got this idea from, but I can assure you that the science magazine is a well established magazine that most scientists read here in Norway. > > in one of them was a big article that telekinesis has been >>>proven to exist. > >Sounds like one of those journalistic prostitution venues... > Of course it sounds like that to you when the fact the telekinesis exist is just ridiculous to you. Just want to add the fact that you don't know the first thing about telekinesis. But it is not you, it is quite common. The less you know about something, the more unbelievable is sounds. > >>>It was actually the head-line. > >ACTUALLY! Do you suppose this was intended to sell that rag? > It only said: "Famous university proves: The power of the mind" > >>>The research have been done by a university for many, many years. > >I hope you don't mean Duke University; Rhine's lab was funded by other >sources and I believe it continues to be a source of embarrassment to >the university. > Duke University??? If you had checked out the link you would have discovered that is was the Princeton university. Of course it would be a source of embarrassment when all scientists are like you. > >>>The answer is clear. Telekinesis is a fact. Check out for yourself: >>>http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/ >>> The fact is that one of us has to be wrong, since I know more about this than you, then I have to conclude that you must be wrong. You gain knowledge out of information. ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <356ad0a8.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356ad758.2128618@usenet.idirect.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:42:43 +0200 Lines: 48 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p15.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p15.telia.com Message-ID: <356c3436.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p15.telia.com Sorry about that, was just playing stupid. Of course I could have removed the other groups, but I like a big audience. But I do normally not check out what group I'm sending to. That is usually quite clear. But sometimes it is crossposted. Enigma wrote in message <356ad758.2128618@usenet.idirect.com>... >On Tue, 26 May 1998 16:20:51 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" > wrote: > >>I have an education in science myself. But I can't help it that this post is >>crossposted in several groups. Anyway, I subscribe to a lot of science > >Hi Lars, > >Actually you can help it if this post is crossposted >to several groups. Claude Rifaat added the >newsgroups bionet.neuroscience and sci.physics when >he responded to Ian's post. People from those groups >have a right to complain about this thread being off-topic, >I would think. > >It is a good idea to always check the newsgroups list in >the header of a post when replying to a post to make sure >it is not being cross-posted to unrelated newsgroups. > >I have removed all newsgroups from the newsgroups list >in the header of this post except alt.out-of-body so as >not to bother the folks in the other newsgroups with this >reply, since I know you read alt.out-of-body. (Sorry to the >folks in alt.out-of-body for this off-topic post.) > >BTW, getting into debates with skeptics is usually pointless >unless you have something specific that you want to prove >to them with solid evidence. Otherwise you'll probably just >end up getting into long drawn-out arguments that go >nowhere. > >regards, >Enigma > > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!uninett.no!due.unit.no!not-for-mail From: "Sturla Molden" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 27 May 1998 22:27:25 GMT Organization: Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 50 Message-ID: <022da736$e6dc3860$ca39f181@Sturla> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356A55B8.2FC2@geocities.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: borg-56.stud.ntnu.no X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Zac skrev i artikkelen <356A55B8.2FC2@geocities.com>... | > I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper | > documentation has been provided. | > | Yes, it is a human right, but if you distrust all claims you will learn | nothing from anyone and will be closed minded. There is a huge difference between 'open minded' and 'unattached to reality'. My personal opinion is that psychics experience some kind of psychosis and that those who bleieve in them experience another. Until psychic phenomena can be studied in a controlled lab situation, I remain with the assumption that they are false claims. In support of this, paranormal pehnomena tend to differ around the world. E.g. in Scandinavia and nothern Germany, the most common form of paranormal activity is so-called "earth radiation". This is, apparently, some kind of invisible, unmeasurable, subjectively negative 'energy' or 'vibrations' that makes you unhealthy, and it originates from ores of ground water. It can be counteracted by putting a coil of cupper wire under the bed, because this will make a shield or reflect it away. Now, this kind of 'radiation' is unknown outside the mentioned area, but perhaps the mot commonly reported form of paranormal activity in Scandinavia. Even the Norwegian red cross uses a device called a "search angle" under rescue operations; this device is used on the assuption that humans make disturbances in the pattern of 'earth radiation'. On the other hand, psychokinesis is virtually unknown here. So it seem to me that paranormality is much more folkelore than universally existing phenomena. Hence, I want it demonstrated in a lab before I even consider it to be anything remotely real. Sturla Molden ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:14:37 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 27 Message-ID: <35739bae.5025921@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kfqsc$sso@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <356c339c.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: b2-59.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 On Wed, 27 May 1998 17:40:08 +0200, "Lars Rune Foleide" wrote: < snip > >>Yes you can: delete some of the groups. >Sorry, can't do that when the person I'm trying >to reach is on one of the groups that you want >to be deleted. If you don't want to crosspost to an irrelevant newsgroup, but you do want to reply to someone there, then why not just send him/her a direct email ? If you post your comments in a "relevant" newsgroup then the email can be an exact copy. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news1.best.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "jc" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Lines: 58 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 03:30:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: cx52672-a.vista1.sdca.home.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:30:58 PDT Organization: @Home Network Isn't that the point of this everlastingly long thread - belief? There are two schools here - those who take it on belief or experience and those who take it on data received from replicable experiments. As long as the "document" is a replicable experiment then people don't have to "believe" - they can verify -jc Lars Rune Foleide wrote in message <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >I have contact with more than 20 psychic people.... >They have probably documentation of psychic phenomena or >can at least make some. > >But my goal is not to convince you, so I will not even bother to think >about it. > >Even if you read a "document" that says that there is such a thing >as psychic people you will not be fully convinced before you experience >it yourself. > > >Sturla Molden wrote in message <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla>... >>Lars Rune Foleide skrev i artikkelen >><3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com>... >> >>| Nothing of what you said made any sense. >> >>That depends on your knowlede of the philosophy of science. >>Most of it (all?) made sence to me and I guess it did >>so to most of those who subscribe to bionet.neuroscience. >> >>| The existence of psychic people have been proven >>| many, many times. >>| The proof doesn't find you, you have to find it. >> >>First, those who make a claim has to provide the documentation. >>If you make the claim that existance of psychic phenomena has >>been "proven" (I assume that should be "documented" or >>"established"), then you will need to provide the documentation. >>So what are your references? >> >>I consider it a human right to distrust any claim until proper >>documentation has been provided. >> >> >>Sturla Molden >> >> >> >> >> > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: cijadra@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Cijadrachon) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:58:15 GMT Organization: Freie Universitaet Berlin Lines: 2 Message-ID: <356e07b1.14813821@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.de (130.133.216.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Access: 16 17 18 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 896490668 3515 (none) 130.133.216.34 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 >> First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. Dozens. ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:14:10 +0200 Lines: 177 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p8.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t4o204p8.telia.com Message-ID: <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!uninett.no!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t4o204p8.telia.com First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. A device called Neurophone can send sounds and music to the brain. Even deaf people may hear with this device. http://www.flantech.com http://www.execpc.com/~mholmes/do-obe/do-obe.html This is a link to a page that will explain in great detail how you may leave your body. But there is A LOT of information on the internet about leaving your body. Just try http://www.spiritweb.com You may also try to search on astral projection and OBE Leaving your body is the most trilling experience a human may experience. And I want to thank you for that list, it was most interesting. But believe it or not, I'm trying to find an explanation on the paranormal. What kinds of energy it is that we are dealing with and stuff like that. Can feel that I'm closing into the answer, but time will show. I have also figured things out that I have set my mind to understand. Understanding the mind itself may be the most difficult task I could set myself to solve. Cijadrachon wrote in message <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de>... >>>>Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" >>>>blabbering elicits? >I think the shame,blabbering and silly stuff is to do with you. >I would like more data in what he says, but even just like that find >it interesting. > >>If you have no respect or need for scientific >>>>methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? > >To censor yourself to 5 senses and then ignore them, too, is of course >seeing to some rather silly theories, but some stuff is also >interesting. >Maybe because you are limiting yourself in that way, you think that >all others have to do the same, and cannot understand that there are a >lot of people who keep vague track within many of the branches of >research of the people's of Earth. > >Maybe when you advance a bit inside some day you might come to realize >that when people(s) are busying themselves for (thousands of) years >with exploring or improving something, that often it is worth to take >a look at the results they have come up with, even if there might be >some mistakes in them. > >>>I have an education in science myself. >Well, looking that at the time when I had to do with Western education >they were still teaching that we have 5 senses, were silent about what >senses people were burned for using for hundreds of years, were >teaching that heat, light, matter and energy are very different things >and that there are three worlds, that Charles and Alexander were >GREAT, that killing people, grabbing their land and plundering it is >termed "colonialism" and that the center of the human mind likely is >in the frontal cortex or in no place and that therefore it is O.K. to >say that we are better animals than others and that other mammales and >birds, are therefore not "who"s but "it"s, .... >I am not sure if that statement is to be taken positive or to be >meaning that you were taught to ignore the senses leading to magic and >only have crippled abilities in them and learned to ignore even the >few senses left to you after that censoring, >to follow Western pregiven tracks... > >> Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try to do. >Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >place. > >>>out-of-body >How does one do that? >I have seen people doing it, but myself I never managed, though I can >extend headfields a bit. >If one were to go step by step, how does it work? >Especially the bit of going out in detail? > >> I do not like you sit around and wait for the proof to fall on my lap, I'm instead out and searching >>>for more info about the subject. Trying to find an explanation. > >"If the mountain does not come to the prophet, >the prophet has to go to the mountain..." > >> but this guy managed to send as many >>>electrons through his finger for as long as he wanted. >I don't know about electrons, but there is power you can get from >breathing, and if I transfer from the brain to another brain I can go >for many minutes in a row. >Some of the others said they also tap into external energies. >Some even said that it is possible to tap into other people's >energies. > >>>So the paranormal is out there, you just have to find it. >I am not sure if I'd term it paranormal. >A lot for me is just magic, as has been practiced for thousands of >years. > >>> just because you can't read one single >>>word about it > >I am not sure if reading would help that much in many cases. >Personally I'd prefer if the person would link with my systems and >then try to teach rather direct if that is possible. > >And with head energy shifts if they let me dock into their head, so >that I can get rather direct energy transfers. > >And for all I know that is the old way of transferring magical data. >A lot of cultures never used books, because there is so much that you >can transfer if you transfer directly, that to go via words would be >rather limiting, especially when it comes to understanding telepathy, >energy connections and so on. > >>>Okay, so telekinesis is possible, right, what else is possible? > >Sometimes when I was in someones head with my energies they stopped >connection and were scared. > >And there are areas where I do not dare to "fire" into. > >Going by instincts and stories part of the answer would be: >Altering energies in many cells, making new axon pathways, healing >people, killing people, diagnosing, altering brain energy levels to >more stable and controlled if someone is falling awake near the >dream-ranges and goes hallucinating against his will, communicating >with the energyfields of reently dead people and mediating to the >living, keeping dead people longer from decay by docking into their >body and head maybe even hours every day and countering decay with >your alive energies (in this case linking body and brain sectors' >energies parallel into the according decaying cells of the dead one), >determining with someone who is in coma how far (s)he is gone, >taking over some functions to an extent if someone is unconscious or >in coma, practicing to stay awake in dreams, then awake go down to the >dream ranges and later the death ranges to perceive and send in the >according ranges, send and perceive for thousands of km, communicate >with other people far away that way, go through the Earth-fields and >far through space, according to some folks communicate with odd >conscious energy forms perceivable on the other ranges here on Earth, >some of which do not seem to origin from Earth, "hold" the entire >akasha of your hand or hole body so that you are able to use the space >between the atoms and electrons to shift it through something else, >perceive events of the past, go to bed before midnight and when you >are asleep stay awake in the dream and extend your fields/energies >through the walls to someone whom you hate, dock into his brain's >waking centers to make sure he wakes up and pereives your energy form >next to his bed, and do so every midnight, and then at some point >mention with an evil stare that you had some witch put a curse on him >and that he is doomed, >use the evil stare, "record" his energy patterns so you can locate him >from far away and then just keep "firing" disrupter fields into his >thymus and into areas in the brain down behind the ears deep inside >and some other areas, >use stones and Earth-fields, use other('s) energies as a tuner, >dock with other magicians and let them run part of your systems >centrally until after days and months transmitter heights change and >connections (axons, dendrites) start to restructure according to their >inputs and you can get the power-patterns transferred in far better >ways, and may receive results of thousands of years of human research >and become a guardian and keeper of the old knowledge yourself... >And be recognized by others who are and who might be the guardians, >teachers, healers, ... of their clan, tribe or religion, and some of >whom might then be willing to share more with you... > > >But then again some people tell a lot of nonsense of they are bored, >hehe, ... ;-) >So don't give too much to what I said, just thought you might find the >answer interesting. > >Simplified the limits of magic are the limits of the universe and of >the own systems. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 29 May 1998 03:26:11 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 211 Message-ID: <6kl9sj$2s0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny71-53.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu May 28 8:26:11 PM PDT 1998 Sounds to me like you have lost ALL your senses... In <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" writes: > >First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. >A device called Neurophone can send sounds and music to the brain. >Even deaf people may hear with this device. >http://www.flantech.com > >http://www.execpc.com/~mholmes/do-obe/do-obe.html > >This is a link to a page that will explain in great detail how you may leave >your body. But there is A LOT of information on the internet about leaving >your body. Just try http://www.spiritweb.com > >You may also try to search on astral projection and OBE > >Leaving your body is the most trilling experience a human may experience. > >And I want to thank you for that list, it was most interesting. > >But believe it or not, I'm trying to find an explanation on the paranormal. >What kinds of energy it is that we are dealing with and stuff like that. >Can feel that I'm closing into the answer, but time will show. >I have also figured things out that I have set my mind to understand. >Understanding the mind itself may be the most difficult task I could set >myself to solve. > > >Cijadrachon wrote in message <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de>... >>>>>Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" >>>>>blabbering elicits? >>I think the shame,blabbering and silly stuff is to do with you. >>I would like more data in what he says, but even just like that find >>it interesting. >> >>>If you have no respect or need for scientific >>>>>methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? >> >>To censor yourself to 5 senses and then ignore them, too, is of course >>seeing to some rather silly theories, but some stuff is also >>interesting. >>Maybe because you are limiting yourself in that way, you think that >>all others have to do the same, and cannot understand that there are a >>lot of people who keep vague track within many of the branches of >>research of the people's of Earth. >> >>Maybe when you advance a bit inside some day you might come to realize >>that when people(s) are busying themselves for (thousands of) years >>with exploring or improving something, that often it is worth to take >>a look at the results they have come up with, even if there might be >>some mistakes in them. >> >>>>I have an education in science myself. >>Well, looking that at the time when I had to do with Western education >>they were still teaching that we have 5 senses, were silent about what >>senses people were burned for using for hundreds of years, were >>teaching that heat, light, matter and energy are very different things >>and that there are three worlds, that Charles and Alexander were >>GREAT, that killing people, grabbing their land and plundering it is >>termed "colonialism" and that the center of the human mind likely is >>in the frontal cortex or in no place and that therefore it is O.K. to >>say that we are better animals than others and that other mammales and >>birds, are therefore not "who"s but "it"s, .... >>I am not sure if that statement is to be taken positive or to be >>meaning that you were taught to ignore the senses leading to magic and >>only have crippled abilities in them and learned to ignore even the >>few senses left to you after that censoring, >>to follow Western pregiven tracks... >> >>> Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try to >do. >>Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >>extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >>But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >>place. >> >>>>out-of-body >>How does one do that? >>I have seen people doing it, but myself I never managed, though I can >>extend headfields a bit. >>If one were to go step by step, how does it work? >>Especially the bit of going out in detail? >> >>> I do not like you sit around and wait for the proof to fall on my lap, >I'm instead out and searching >>>>for more info about the subject. Trying to find an explanation. >> >>"If the mountain does not come to the prophet, >>the prophet has to go to the mountain..." >> >>> but this guy managed to send as many >>>>electrons through his finger for as long as he wanted. >>I don't know about electrons, but there is power you can get from >>breathing, and if I transfer from the brain to another brain I can go >>for many minutes in a row. >>Some of the others said they also tap into external energies. >>Some even said that it is possible to tap into other people's >>energies. >> >>>>So the paranormal is out there, you just have to find it. >>I am not sure if I'd term it paranormal. >>A lot for me is just magic, as has been practiced for thousands of >>years. >> >>>> just because you can't read one single >>>>word about it >> >>I am not sure if reading would help that much in many cases. >>Personally I'd prefer if the person would link with my systems and >>then try to teach rather direct if that is possible. >> >>And with head energy shifts if they let me dock into their head, so >>that I can get rather direct energy transfers. >> >>And for all I know that is the old way of transferring magical data. >>A lot of cultures never used books, because there is so much that you >>can transfer if you transfer directly, that to go via words would be >>rather limiting, especially when it comes to understanding telepathy, >>energy connections and so on. >> >>>>Okay, so telekinesis is possible, right, what else is possible? >> >>Sometimes when I was in someones head with my energies they stopped >>connection and were scared. >> >>And there are areas where I do not dare to "fire" into. >> >>Going by instincts and stories part of the answer would be: >>Altering energies in many cells, making new axon pathways, healing >>people, killing people, diagnosing, altering brain energy levels to >>more stable and controlled if someone is falling awake near the >>dream-ranges and goes hallucinating against his will, communicating >>with the energyfields of reently dead people and mediating to the >>living, keeping dead people longer from decay by docking into their >>body and head maybe even hours every day and countering decay with >>your alive energies (in this case linking body and brain sectors' >>energies parallel into the according decaying cells of the dead one), >>determining with someone who is in coma how far (s)he is gone, >>taking over some functions to an extent if someone is unconscious or >>in coma, practicing to stay awake in dreams, then awake go down to the >>dream ranges and later the death ranges to perceive and send in the >>according ranges, send and perceive for thousands of km, communicate >>with other people far away that way, go through the Earth-fields and >>far through space, according to some folks communicate with odd >>conscious energy forms perceivable on the other ranges here on Earth, >>some of which do not seem to origin from Earth, "hold" the entire >>akasha of your hand or hole body so that you are able to use the space >>between the atoms and electrons to shift it through something else, >>perceive events of the past, go to bed before midnight and when you >>are asleep stay awake in the dream and extend your fields/energies >>through the walls to someone whom you hate, dock into his brain's >>waking centers to make sure he wakes up and pereives your energy form >>next to his bed, and do so every midnight, and then at some point >>mention with an evil stare that you had some witch put a curse on him >>and that he is doomed, >>use the evil stare, "record" his energy patterns so you can locate him >>from far away and then just keep "firing" disrupter fields into his >>thymus and into areas in the brain down behind the ears deep inside >>and some other areas, >>use stones and Earth-fields, use other('s) energies as a tuner, >>dock with other magicians and let them run part of your systems >>centrally until after days and months transmitter heights change and >>connections (axons, dendrites) start to restructure according to their >>inputs and you can get the power-patterns transferred in far better >>ways, and may receive results of thousands of years of human research >>and become a guardian and keeper of the old knowledge yourself... >>And be recognized by others who are and who might be the guardians, >>teachers, healers, ... of their clan, tribe or religion, and some of >>whom might then be willing to share more with you... >> >> >>But then again some people tell a lot of nonsense of they are bored, >>hehe, ... ;-) >>So don't give too much to what I said, just thought you might find the >>answer interesting. >> >>Simplified the limits of magic are the limits of the universe and of >>the own systems. > > ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kl9sj$2s0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:13:48 +0200 Lines: 216 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t1o204p49.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t1o204p49.telia.com Message-ID: <356ed06e.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!digex!howland.erols.net!uninett.no!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t1o204p49.telia.com Sounds to me that you don't have any braincells left..... F. Frank LeFever wrote in message <6kl9sj$2s0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>... > > >Sounds to me like you have lost ALL your senses... > > > > >In <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" > writes: >> >>First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. >>A device called Neurophone can send sounds and music to the brain. >>Even deaf people may hear with this device. >>http://www.flantech.com >> >>http://www.execpc.com/~mholmes/do-obe/do-obe.html >> >>This is a link to a page that will explain in great detail how you may >leave >>your body. But there is A LOT of information on the internet about >leaving >>your body. Just try http://www.spiritweb.com >> >>You may also try to search on astral projection and OBE >> >>Leaving your body is the most trilling experience a human may >experience. >> >>And I want to thank you for that list, it was most interesting. >> >>But believe it or not, I'm trying to find an explanation on the >paranormal. >>What kinds of energy it is that we are dealing with and stuff like >that. >>Can feel that I'm closing into the answer, but time will show. >>I have also figured things out that I have set my mind to understand. >>Understanding the mind itself may be the most difficult task I could >set >>myself to solve. >> >> >>Cijadrachon wrote in message ><356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de>... >>>>>>Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly >"psychic" >>>>>>blabbering elicits? >>>I think the shame,blabbering and silly stuff is to do with you. >>>I would like more data in what he says, but even just like that find >>>it interesting. >>> >>>>If you have no respect or need for scientific >>>>>>methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? >>> >>>To censor yourself to 5 senses and then ignore them, too, is of >course >>>seeing to some rather silly theories, but some stuff is also >>>interesting. >>>Maybe because you are limiting yourself in that way, you think that >>>all others have to do the same, and cannot understand that there are >a >>>lot of people who keep vague track within many of the branches of >>>research of the people's of Earth. >>> >>>Maybe when you advance a bit inside some day you might come to >realize >>>that when people(s) are busying themselves for (thousands of) years >>>with exploring or improving something, that often it is worth to take >>>a look at the results they have come up with, even if there might be >>>some mistakes in them. >>> >>>>>I have an education in science myself. >>>Well, looking that at the time when I had to do with Western >education >>>they were still teaching that we have 5 senses, were silent about >what >>>senses people were burned for using for hundreds of years, were >>>teaching that heat, light, matter and energy are very different >things >>>and that there are three worlds, that Charles and Alexander were >>>GREAT, that killing people, grabbing their land and plundering it is >>>termed "colonialism" and that the center of the human mind likely is >>>in the frontal cortex or in no place and that therefore it is O.K. to >>>say that we are better animals than others and that other mammales >and >>>birds, are therefore not "who"s but "it"s, .... >>>I am not sure if that statement is to be taken positive or to be >>>meaning that you were taught to ignore the senses leading to magic >and >>>only have crippled abilities in them and learned to ignore even the >>>few senses left to you after that censoring, >>>to follow Western pregiven tracks... >>> >>>> Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might >try to >>do. >>>Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >>>extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >>>But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >>>place. >>> >>>>>out-of-body >>>How does one do that? >>>I have seen people doing it, but myself I never managed, though I can >>>extend headfields a bit. >>>If one were to go step by step, how does it work? >>>Especially the bit of going out in detail? >>> >>>> I do not like you sit around and wait for the proof to fall on my >lap, >>I'm instead out and searching >>>>>for more info about the subject. Trying to find an explanation. >>> >>>"If the mountain does not come to the prophet, >>>the prophet has to go to the mountain..." >>> >>>> but this guy managed to send as many >>>>>electrons through his finger for as long as he wanted. >>>I don't know about electrons, but there is power you can get from >>>breathing, and if I transfer from the brain to another brain I can go >>>for many minutes in a row. >>>Some of the others said they also tap into external energies. >>>Some even said that it is possible to tap into other people's >>>energies. >>> >>>>>So the paranormal is out there, you just have to find it. >>>I am not sure if I'd term it paranormal. >>>A lot for me is just magic, as has been practiced for thousands of >>>years. >>> >>>>> just because you can't read one single >>>>>word about it >>> >>>I am not sure if reading would help that much in many cases. >>>Personally I'd prefer if the person would link with my systems and >>>then try to teach rather direct if that is possible. >>> >>>And with head energy shifts if they let me dock into their head, so >>>that I can get rather direct energy transfers. >>> >>>And for all I know that is the old way of transferring magical data. >>>A lot of cultures never used books, because there is so much that you >>>can transfer if you transfer directly, that to go via words would be >>>rather limiting, especially when it comes to understanding telepathy, >>>energy connections and so on. >>> >>>>>Okay, so telekinesis is possible, right, what else is possible? >>> >>>Sometimes when I was in someones head with my energies they stopped >>>connection and were scared. >>> >>>And there are areas where I do not dare to "fire" into. >>> >>>Going by instincts and stories part of the answer would be: >>>Altering energies in many cells, making new axon pathways, healing >>>people, killing people, diagnosing, altering brain energy levels to >>>more stable and controlled if someone is falling awake near the >>>dream-ranges and goes hallucinating against his will, communicating >>>with the energyfields of reently dead people and mediating to the >>>living, keeping dead people longer from decay by docking into their >>>body and head maybe even hours every day and countering decay with >>>your alive energies (in this case linking body and brain sectors' >>>energies parallel into the according decaying cells of the dead one), >>>determining with someone who is in coma how far (s)he is gone, >>>taking over some functions to an extent if someone is unconscious or >>>in coma, practicing to stay awake in dreams, then awake go down to >the >>>dream ranges and later the death ranges to perceive and send in the >>>according ranges, send and perceive for thousands of km, communicate >>>with other people far away that way, go through the Earth-fields and >>>far through space, according to some folks communicate with odd >>>conscious energy forms perceivable on the other ranges here on Earth, >>>some of which do not seem to origin from Earth, "hold" the entire >>>akasha of your hand or hole body so that you are able to use the >space >>>between the atoms and electrons to shift it through something else, >>>perceive events of the past, go to bed before midnight and when you >>>are asleep stay awake in the dream and extend your fields/energies >>>through the walls to someone whom you hate, dock into his brain's >>>waking centers to make sure he wakes up and pereives your energy form >>>next to his bed, and do so every midnight, and then at some point >>>mention with an evil stare that you had some witch put a curse on him >>>and that he is doomed, >>>use the evil stare, "record" his energy patterns so you can locate >him >>>from far away and then just keep "firing" disrupter fields into his >>>thymus and into areas in the brain down behind the ears deep inside >>>and some other areas, >>>use stones and Earth-fields, use other('s) energies as a tuner, >>>dock with other magicians and let them run part of your systems >>>centrally until after days and months transmitter heights change and >>>connections (axons, dendrites) start to restructure according to >their >>>inputs and you can get the power-patterns transferred in far better >>>ways, and may receive results of thousands of years of human research >>>and become a guardian and keeper of the old knowledge yourself... >>>And be recognized by others who are and who might be the guardians, >>>teachers, healers, ... of their clan, tribe or religion, and some of >>>whom might then be willing to share more with you... >>> >>> >>>But then again some people tell a lot of nonsense of they are bored, >>>hehe, ... ;-) >>>So don't give too much to what I said, just thought you might find >the >>>answer interesting. >>> >>>Simplified the limits of magic are the limits of the universe and of >>>the own systems. >> >> > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Zac Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 21:01:55 -0700 Organization: none Lines: 44 Message-ID: <356F84B3.5FCD@geocities.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bd8b5f$f261eda0$LocalHost@deathlord> <6knor7$g1j@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: psycho_dude@geocities.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ple-ca18-11.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 29 11:01:27 PM CDT 1998 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) Well isn't this just the everlasting thread from hell? I don't think anyone will end up winning this argument,(I mean has anyone really and fully proven or disproven psychic abilities in the course of human existance?) Nothing is wrong with a good little debate every now and then, but no one around here seems to be really listening to each other. F. Frank LeFever wrote: > > Wrong newsgroup. Try alt.psycho Why don't you try adding something tangible as proof of the non-existance of psychic abilities instead of bashing everyone else's opinions Frank? If you can't provide any proof that psychic abilities don't exist than why should anyone belive you? Also, if you are so sure that psychic abilities are pure fiction why don't you try to find something that proves otherwise, or better yet, if you are such a logical, scientific person why don't you do your own research, you would be surprised what you can find. > > In <01bd8b5f$f261eda0$LocalHost@deathlord> "Ian Wilson" > writes: > > > >> I wouldn't be even partially convinced if I read something which > >> said merely, "psychic people exist." I would, however, be > >> consederiably more convinced if that same document detailed a > >> controlled, rigorous experiment which validated claims of psychic > >> phenomena. > > > >The power in convincing anyone that psychic people exist is turning > them > >into one. > > > >What better proof than your own physical experiences relating data to > you > >where you have clear conscious recognisable patterns which illustrate > >psychic ability in yourself. > > > >As for proof, what do you need? > > -- -Zac I'm not insane... ....the voices in my head tell me so. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 00:11:34 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 6 Message-ID: <01bd8b5f$54e9bbc0$LocalHost@deathlord> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kl9sj$2s0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 14030@207.34.144.201 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > Sounds to me like you have lost ALL your senses... Interesting analogy of someone you know nothing about. You must go really far in life stepping on anything around you you don't agree with. Remind me not to endow myself in the body of an ant while near you. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 00:15:59 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 15 Message-ID: <01bd8b5f$f261eda0$LocalHost@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 14030@207.34.144.201 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > I wouldn't be even partially convinced if I read something which > said merely, "psychic people exist." I would, however, be > consederiably more convinced if that same document detailed a > controlled, rigorous experiment which validated claims of psychic > phenomena. The power in convincing anyone that psychic people exist is turning them into one. What better proof than your own physical experiences relating data to you where you have clear conscious recognisable patterns which illustrate psychic ability in yourself. As for proof, what do you need? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 01:41:27 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 89 Message-ID: <6kno47$91u@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kl9sj$2s0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <356ed06e.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny74-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 29 6:41:27 PM PDT 1998 In <356ed06e.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" writes: > >Sounds to me that you don't have any braincells left..... > >F. Frank LeFever wrote in message <6kl9sj$2s0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>... >> >> >>Sounds to me like you have lost ALL your senses... >> >> >> >> >>In <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" >> writes: >>> >>>First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. >>I am not sure if that statement in them and learned to ignore even the >>>>few senses left to you after that censoring, >>>>to follow Western pregiven tracks... >>>> >>>>> Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might >>try to >>>do. >>>>Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >>>>extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >>>>But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >>>>place. >>>> >>>>>>out-of-body >>>>How does one do that? >>>>I have seen people doing it, but myself I never managed, though I can >>>>extend headfields a >>>>I am not sure if reading would help that much in many cases. >>>>Personally I'd prefer if the person would link with my systems and >>>>then try to teach rather direct if that is possible. >>>> >>>>And with head energy shifts if they let me dock into their head, so >>>>that I can get rather direct energy transfers. >>>> >>>>And for all I know that is the old way of transferring magical data. >>>>A lot of cultures never used books, because there >>>>And there are areas where I do not dare to "fire" into. >>>> >>>>Going by instincts and stories part of the answer would be: >>>>Altering energies in many cells, making new axon pathways, healing >>>>people, killing people, diagnosing, altering brain energy levels to >>>>more stable and controlled if someone is falling awake near the >>>>dream-ranges and goes hallucinating against his will, communicating >>>>with the energyfielthe >>>>dream ranges and later the death ranges to perceive and send in the >>>>according ranges, send and perceive for thousands of km, communicate >use stones and Earth-fields, use other('s) energies as a tuner, >>>>dock with other magicians and let them run part of your systems >>>>centrally until after days and months transmitter heights change and >>>>connections (axons, dendrites) start to restructure according to >>their >>>>inputs and you can get the power-patterns transferred in far better >>>>ways, and may receive results of thousands of years of human research >>>>and become a guardian and keeper of the old knowledge yourself... >>>>And be recognized by others who are and who might be the guardians, >>>>teachers, healers, ... of their clan, tribe or religion, and some of >>>>whom might then be willing to share more with you... >>>> >>>> >>>>But then again some people tell a lot of nonsense of they are bored, >>>>hehe, ... ;-) ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 01:52:50 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 "Lars Rune Foleide" writes: > First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. > A device called Neurophone can send sounds and music to the brain. > Even deaf people may hear with this device. > http://www.flantech.com We have a _lot_ more than that: 1-5 seeing, hearing, smell, taste, touch (the 5 traditional ones) 6 gravity (where is up-/downwards?) 7 acceleration (both of these are located just inside the ears) 8-9 thirst and hunger (chemical senses like smell and taste) 10 heat (do you touch a hot plate or feel heat from distance?) 11 magnetic direction (as in some birds, yes humans have it) 12 direct electrical perception (bio-radio, this one is speculative*) I have heard of lists going up to 20. * and IMHO makes a good working hypothesis for telepathy/clairvoyance > But believe it or not, I'm trying to find an explanation on the paranormal. > What kinds of energy it is that we are dealing with and stuff like that. > Can feel that I'm closing into the answer, but time will show. > I have also figured things out that I have set my mind to understand. > Understanding the mind itself may be the most difficult task I could set > myself to solve. The real scientist (or as I prefer to call such, naturalist), look and try to figure, not following dogma. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 01:53:43 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6knor7$g1j@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bd8b5f$f261eda0$LocalHost@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny74-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 29 6:53:43 PM PDT 1998 Wrong newsgroup. Try alt.psycho In <01bd8b5f$f261eda0$LocalHost@deathlord> "Ian Wilson" writes: > >> I wouldn't be even partially convinced if I read something which >> said merely, "psychic people exist." I would, however, be >> consederiably more convinced if that same document detailed a >> controlled, rigorous experiment which validated claims of psychic >> phenomena. > >The power in convincing anyone that psychic people exist is turning them >into one. > >What better proof than your own physical experiences relating data to you >where you have clear conscious recognisable patterns which illustrate >psychic ability in yourself. > >As for proof, what do you need? > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 01:59:45 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 44 Message-ID: <6knp6h$s90@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny74-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 29 6:59:45 PM PDT 1998 In Neil Franklin writes: > >"Lars Rune Foleide" writes: >> First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. >> A device called Neurophone can send sounds and music to the brain. >> Even deaf people may hear with this device. >> http://www.flantech.com > >We have a _lot_ more than that: >1-5 seeing, hearing, smell, taste, touch (the 5 traditional ones) >6 gravity (where is up-/downwards?) >7 acceleration (both of these are located just inside the ears) >8-9 thirst and hunger (chemical senses like smell and taste) >10 heat (do you touch a hot plate or feel heat from distance?) >11 magnetic direction (as in some birds, yes humans have it) >12 direct electrical perception (bio-radio, this one is speculative*) > >I have heard of lists going up to 20. > >* and IMHO makes a good working hypothesis for telepathy/clairvoyance > > >> But believe it or not, I'm trying to find an explanation on the paranormal. >> What kinds of energy it is that we are dealing with and stuff like that. >> Can feel that I'm closing into the answer, but time will show. >> I have also figured things out that I have set my mind to understand. >> Understanding the mind itself may be the most difficult task I could set >> myself to solve. > >The real scientist (or as I prefer to call such, naturalist), look and >try to figure, not following dogma. > > >-- >private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ >office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ >WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 02:00:57 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 7 Message-ID: <6knp8p$6a5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356e07b1.14813821@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny74-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri May 29 9:00:57 PM CDT 1998 In <356e07b1.14813821@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> cijadra@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Cijadrachon) writes: > >>> First of all will I point out that we have AT LEAST 6 senses. >Dozens. But no sense. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.wli.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 30 May 1998 07:17:28 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 3 Message-ID: <01bd8b9c$161e85a0$669022cf@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <01bd8b5f$f261eda0$LocalHost@deathlord> <6knor7$g1j@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.144.102 X-Trace: 896512648 AFJDQJSII9066CF22C usenet85.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > Wrong newsgroup. Try alt.psycho Bravo, I guess I'll have to drive over to your house then :) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!fu-berlin.de!cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: cijadra@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Cijadrachon) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 11:50:03 GMT Organization: Freie Universitaet Berlin Lines: 72 Message-ID: <357143e2.19012728@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <356ad1b9.0@d2o204.telia.com> <356b62c5.23258705@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <356dfd95.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cijadra.dialup.fu-berlin.de (130.133.216.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Access: 16 17 18 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 896702581 13322 (none) 130.133.216.34 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/16.235 > seeing, hearing, Why do you discern these in this form and do not mention the common ranges? >smell, taste, touch (the 5 traditional ones) I fail to see the tradition; but maybe you mean what the Catholics still allow(ed) people and did not burn them for using? But historically the burning for sense-censoring did not start before the medieval ages here, so if you look at human history that is a rather short time, and I am not sure if here in Germany they ever really managed to kill the knowledge about the senses leading to magic and some of the others out. much as they have tried for so many centuries and much as the Christian rulers here forcing the children into their schools are still trying... And if you look from another traditional point of view at the lands where the people call the second day of the week that of the moon, (Sonnabend, Sonntag, Mondtag, ... Wednesday, Thursday (Donnerstag), Friday...) you might notice certain things in many of them... Some things are not destroyed that fast... > hunger (chemical senses like smell and taste) Are you sure that that is just one sense? For me it feel like many. >10 heat (do you touch a hot plate or feel heat from distance?) >11 magnetic direction (as in some birds, yes humans have it) >12 direct electrical perception (bio-radio, this one is speculative*) Why do you discern these in this form? Especially the latter two? >* and IMHO makes a good working hypothesis for telepathy/clairvoyance I am not English, what is IMHO? Why do you need a hypothesis for telepathy? ... I do not know about clairvoyance. If I wanted to learn that, how do I do that? >> But believe it or not, I'm trying to find an explanation on the paranormal. How about: It is normal, and some are just freaking good in it? I like the following old explanation of magic: Extending akasha into other akasha and changing stuff there. >> What kinds of energy it is that we are dealing with and stuff like that. I guess all there is is there, but how much you can perceive of it and how much you can alter & the ranges are very different from person to person. >> Understanding the mind itself may be the most difficult task I could set >> myself to solve. What are the questions you have about the mind? >The real scientist (or as I prefer to call such, naturalist), look and >try to figure, not following dogma. Wisely spoken, though I tend to think that if people(s) busy themselves for ages with something it often tends to be worthy to inspect the results, and to also analyze the dogma. Try to look/poerceive the magic way, too. And remember not to do too much figuring together with some kinds of the other looking (but maybe afterwards), or you set the brain to the newer functions, and it might block "the old way to perceive" too much to perceive on many other ranges. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: "Ian Wilson" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 1 Jun 1998 22:51:35 GMT Organization: Death Lines: 176 Message-ID: <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.144.104 X-Trace: 896741495 AFJDQJSII9068CF22C usenet14.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 > > Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try to do. > Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and > extending life for centuries might be more tricky. > But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first > place. It's a patient art of controlling one's own mind and that frequency with that of the object. I have done very little telekinesis but enough to satisfy myself that it has a potential that I will explore willingly till I die. > >>out-of-body > How does one do that? We do it all the time, it is a naturally occuring phenomena that usually misses one element, and that is waking consicousness so one does not remeber, or only has distorted memory in forms of dreams passing through a belief filter to their waking consciousness. > If one were to go step by step, how does it work? This is a thought thing, you have to "think" yourself through it. The process is simple. Take yourself as you percieve yourself consciously for the unconscious ride. To do that, you have to prepare yourself for consciousness in that unconscious state. A transgression is in order. A bridge psychologically must be built to carry you into a re-occuring unconscious feild of consciousness. To do this, start simply by identifying with yourself what you are as consciousness. Then you have to program your sleeping patterns to allow your conscious self to remain intact while the body falls asleep. The easiest way to achieve this is to break up sleeping patterns and go to sleep when physically tired, but mentally awake. This helps, but is not nessicary. Before you go to bed. Ask yourself five logical questions and look at your hands. Do this while standing. This is a test you will create for yourself when you enter into a conscious sleeping state. The reason why? To ensure you that you have brought along that logical part of you that we attribute to our waking consciousness. It's presence is everything to us in this feild. Having satisfied yourself with those five questions. An example that I use is this What time is it? What Is the Date? What show did I watch before this session? Two simple mathimatical questions. This little test is important initially because the logical faculties are so important, and a lot of people ignore that truth. They think it's just about being a right-brained individual. That is false, it's both sides of the hemispheres working towards waking consciousness that is needed. Once you establish that you are intent on remaining conscious, the whole key now is dissarming the naturally occuring states which induce unconsciousness in the first place. Removing fears, doubts, concerns, and allowing the body to fall asleep is all important. If you can "balance" mentally as your body falls asleep and not get lost in the hypnotic, hypogogic imagry and start to allow shifts of awareness into altered states. The ride gets really easy. We break it into three stages STAGE ONE :- Pre-sleep, the programming stage STAGE TWO:- The shift through hypnogogic imagry/sound and sensations, and the deep sleep of the body. STAGE THREE:- The actual release from the body into that state. Just relax and give a mental INTENT on what exaclty it is you are doing. I have used an INTENT as simple as this: INTENT:- I am remaining fully conscious as my body falls asleep. That simple and it works for me. But Some people have to pre-program this intent a little more to help with certain factors that arise, that is why you have to learn what exactly your mind does to "knock" you out! Using the intent is simple. You can customise it to deal with fears, concerns, and uncomphortable states as the shift occures. You might want to use an intent such as this one. Say this mentally in your head. INTENT:- I am fully conscious and aware of myself as waking consciousness. I realize that I can remain fully conscious when my body falls asleep. As my body starts to relax, I will simply allow myself to remain alert and aware as to not disturb the natural sleeping pattern of my physical body. I will have full conscious ability, full analytical ability and will be exactly as I am now, but in other states where I normally go unconsicously into sleep. I have no fear, no worries, no concerns about being conscious in these states since I am there unconsciously anyways. When I am in that state, I will run my LOGICAL TEST that I just created for myself to test how consciously aware I am. I will have a clear, detailed conscious memory of the experience on waking as I will be there consciously to record it. I am allowing this process to begin now. A much more larger INTENT but you can see how it may help anchor the logical mind into wanting to go into these states for purely curious reasons. There is no suggestions that it will be a lucid dream, and OOBE, rather just a natural state you enter unconsciously, however this time you will be consicous for it. This can and does help. STAGE TWO This is the fun stage, it's where all the colors, patterns and textures of the mind come to life in vivid detail. Sometimes you skip right through it. But if you don't, while passing through these feilds, just remain totally calm, very relaxed and allow the changes to come as they do. Do not push back any sounds, colors or images should they manifest. And if you do get sounds, vibrations and images, let them continue knowing it is just a natural phenomena entering into these states. NEVER be alarmed or frightened because NOTHING can hurt you. This is totally safe, I mean, how old are you and how many times have you fallen asleep and how many times have you woke? The only difference now is you are consciously aware for it. That is it. Consciousness is the only change you made. Really that simple. Once the changes occure, you might experience a very tactile shift. You might get violent vibrations that will feel like 10 000 volts of PAINLESS electricity passing through your body. It's no big deal, a lot of people experience it. The reason I feel best explains why is because you changed a conscious shift in frequency from a 20 cycle count per second BETA to a possible 12-4 cycle count THETA or DELTA. If you are getting these, just allow them to continue and understand that a shift in conscious frequency to a higher frequency might explain the tactile illusion of vibration. Always be calm and relax. Never let anything startle you because the shifts can happen so fast sometimes. Once your body falls asleep it enters sleep paralysis. This state has scared a few people because you feel trapped and your body doesn't respond to your thoughts. Well, that's because you are out-of-phase slightly and really it's easy to go OOBE if this is the case. If you are in a state of sleep-paralysis, just relax and "mentally" move in a very soft, slow rolling manner to the left or right. And when you roll out, stand at the edge of the bed. Check yourself to see if you are conscious, and run the test. Then turn back to the bed and check to see if your body is there. If so, I encourage you to remain calm, analytical and study the state for what it is worth. Touch your non-physical arms, touch your non-physical face, then touch your physical body. You might get some bi-location of consicousness so you might feel yourself touching your body as you touch it. That's normal too. Consciousness can be divided into many parts as I have learned. That is more advanced and I don't teach that for some time. Then after satisfying that curiosity, explore the room, put your non-physical hand through the wall, try to feel the changes. Push hard if there is resistance, or just relax and push soft. Play with it so you learn from it. And when you awake, write it all down as clearly as you remeber it. And repeat the process as much as you like. It takes getting used to. Read the Course on Consciousness Part Four, it's on my website www.personal.img.net/iwilson. I cover this. > Especially the bit of going out in detail? Practice every night before you sleep. Then wake up after about 5 hours, and apply the technique again. Dicipline and practice is all you need. The most important thing is document not the STAGE THREE result, rather how you got there and what stopped you from getting there. Only you can understand fully what works and doesn't. you will ultimately customise how you go out, as you better understand how you can control your consciousness in these unconscious states. And never be scared, worried or nervous if the experience was very intense. It will be. And I warn you, it may change your life forever. I take no responsibility should you start to unlock the secrets of your own mind, and the mind of the universe. That's your responsibility. Use it responsible if you master it. I hope this help, but practice and application helps even more. Good luck, and let me know if you have any results. I will help as much as I can. Cheers, Ian ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:23:06 +0200 Lines: 186 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p29.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p29.telia.com Message-ID: <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-stkh.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!uninett.no!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p29.telia.com Just want to thank you for a great post. Even though I mostly knew everything in advance you really helped me get things straight and affirm that the thing I knew is right. Keep up the good work... Ian Wilson wrote in message <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord>... >> > Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try >to do. >> Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >> extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >> But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >> place. >It's a patient art of controlling one's own mind and that frequency with >that of the object. I have done very little telekinesis but enough to >satisfy myself that it has a potential that I will explore willingly till I >die. > >> >>out-of-body >> How does one do that? >We do it all the time, it is a naturally occurring phenomena that usually >misses one element, and that is waking consciousness so one does not >remember, or only has distorted memory in forms of dreams passing through a >belief filter to their waking consciousness. > >> If one were to go step by step, how does it work? >This is a thought thing, you have to "think" yourself through it. The >process is simple. Take yourself as you perceive yourself consciously for >the unconscious ride. >To do that, you have to prepare yourself for consciousness in that >unconscious state. A transgression is in order. A bridge psychologically >must be built to carry you into a re-occurring unconscious field of >consciousness. > >To do this, start simply by identifying with yourself what you are as >consciousness. > >Then you have to program your sleeping patterns to allow your conscious >self to remain intact while the body falls asleep. > >The easiest way to achieve this is to break up sleeping patterns and go to >sleep when physically tired, but mentally awake. This helps, but is not >nessicary. > >Before you go to bed. Ask yourself five logical questions and look at your >hands. Do this while standing. This is a test you will create for >yourself when you enter into a conscious sleeping state. The reason why? >To ensure you that you have brought along that logical part of you that we >attribute to our waking consciousness. It's presence is everything to us >in this field. > >Having satisfied yourself with those five questions. An example that I use >is this > >What time is it? >What Is the Date? >What show did I watch before this session? >Two simple mathematical questions. > >This little test is important initially because the logical faculties are >so important, and a lot of people ignore that truth. They think it's just >about being a right-brained individual. That is false, it's both sides of >the hemispheres working towards waking consciousness that is needed. > >Once you establish that you are intent on remaining conscious, the whole >key now is disarming the naturally occurring states which induce >unconsciousness in the first place. Removing fears, doubts, concerns, and >allowing the body to fall asleep is all important. If you can "balance" >mentally as your body falls asleep and not get lost in the hypnotic, >hypogogic imagery and start to allow shifts of awareness into altered >states. The ride gets really easy. >We break it into three stages > >STAGE ONE :- Pre-sleep, the programming stage >STAGE TWO:- The shift through hypnogogic imagery/sound and sensations, and >the deep sleep of the body. >STAGE THREE:- The actual release from the body into that state. > >Just relax and give a mental INTENT on what exactly it is you are doing. > >I have used an INTENT as simple as this: >INTENT:- I am remaining fully conscious as my body falls asleep. > >That simple and it works for me. But Some people have to pre-program this >intent a little more to help with certain factors that arise, that is why >you have to learn what exactly your mind does to "knock" you out! > >Using the intent is simple. You can customize it to deal with fears, >concerns, and uncomfortable states as the shift occurs. >You might want to use an intent such as this one. > >Say this mentally in your head. >INTENT:- I am fully conscious and aware of myself as waking consciousness. >I realize that I can remain fully conscious when my body falls asleep. As >my body starts to relax, I will simply allow myself to remain alert and >aware as to not disturb the natural sleeping pattern of my physical body. >I will have full conscious ability, full analytical ability and will be >exactly as I am now, but in other states where I normally go unconsciously >into sleep. I have no fear, no worries, no concerns about being conscious >in these states since I am there unconsciously anyways. When I am in that >state, I will run my LOGICAL TEST that I just created for myself to test >how consciously aware I am. I will have a clear, detailed conscious memory >of the experience on waking as I will be there consciously to record it. I >am allowing this process to begin now. > >A much more larger INTENT but you can see how it may help anchor the >logical mind into wanting to go into these states for purely curious >reasons. There is no suggestions that it will be a lucid dream, and OOBE, >rather just a natural state you enter unconsciously, however this time you >will be conscious for it. This can and does help. > >STAGE TWO > >This is the fun stage, it's where all the colors, patterns and textures of >the mind come to life in vivid detail. Sometimes you skip right through >it. But if you don't, while passing through these fields, just remain >totally calm, very relaxed and allow the changes to come as they do. Do >not push back any sounds, colors or images should they manifest. And if >you do get sounds, vibrations and images, let them continue knowing it is >just a natural phenomena entering into these states. NEVER be alarmed or >frightened because NOTHING can hurt you. This is totally safe, I mean, how >old are you and how many times have you fallen asleep and how many times >have you woke? The only difference now is you are consciously aware for >it. >That is it. Consciousness is the only change you made. Really that >simple. >Once the changes occur, you might experience a very tactile shift. You >might get violent vibrations that will feel like 10 000 volts of PAINLESS >electricity passing through your body. It's no big deal, a lot of people >experience it. The reason I feel best explains why is because you changed >a conscious shift in frequency from a 20 cycle count per second BETA to a >possible 12-4 cycle count THETA or DELTA. > >If you are getting these, just allow them to continue and understand that a >shift in conscious frequency to a higher frequency might explain the >tactile illusion of vibration. Always be calm and relax. Never let >anything startle you because the shifts can happen so fast sometimes. > >Once your body falls asleep it enters sleep paralysis. This state has >scared a few people because you feel trapped and your body doesn't respond >to your thoughts. >Well, that's because you are out-of-phase slightly and really it's easy to >go OOBE if this is the case. If you are in a state of sleep-paralysis, >just relax and "mentally" move in a very soft, slow rolling manner to the >left or right. And when you roll out, stand at the edge of the bed. Check >yourself to see if you are conscious, and run the test. Then turn back to >the bed and check to see if your body is there. >If so, I encourage you to remain calm, analytical and study the state for >what it is worth. Touch your non-physical arms, touch your non-physical >face, then touch your physical body. You might get some bi-location of >consciousness so you might feel yourself touching your body as you touch >it. That's normal too. Consciousness can be divided into many parts as I >have learned. That is more advanced and I don't teach that for some time. > >Then after satisfying that curiosity, explore the room, put your >non-physical hand through the wall, try to feel the changes. Push hard if >there is resistance, or just relax and push soft. Play with it so you >learn from it. And when you awake, write it all down as clearly as you >remember it. And repeat the process as much as you like. >It takes getting used to. Read the Course on Consciousness Part Four, it's >on my website www.personal.img.net/iwilson. I cover this. > >> Especially the bit of going out in detail? >Practice every night before you sleep. Then wake up after about 5 hours, >and apply the technique again. Discipline and practice is all you need. >The most important thing is document not the STAGE THREE result, rather how >you got there and what stopped you from getting there. Only you can >understand fully what works and doesn't. you will ultimately customize how >you go out, as you better understand how you can control your consciousness >in these unconscious states. And never be scared, worried or nervous if >the experience was very intense. It will be. >And I warn you, it may change your life forever. I take no responsibility >should you start to unlock the secrets of your own mind, and the mind of >the universe. That's your responsibility. Use it responsible if you >master it. > >I hope this help, but practice and application helps even more. Good luck, >and let me know if you have any results. I will help as much as I can. > >Cheers, > Ian > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed1.news.luth.se!luth.se!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!la-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!news.alt.net!inquo!xmission!news.cc.utah.edu!not-for-mail From: Pwinslo@ssb1.saff.utah.edu (TW) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 19:39:01 GMT Organization: University of Utah Computer Center Lines: 17 Message-ID: <357454bb.21247592@news.cc.utah.edu> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560F5EC.F14E7FCD@wco.com> <3565fc14.0@d2o204.telia.com> <022da35a$82718fe0$a439f181@Sturla> <356a231f.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6kdbcr$j6v@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rr-8.saff.utah.edu X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 >Have you no shame? can't you feel the contempt your silly "psychic" >blabbering elicits? If you have no respect or need for scientific >methods, why bother readers in a scientific newsgroup? Go find your >own friends to play with. I didn't realize this newsgroup was only for science. If this is true then more than half the people posting here shouldn't be. There is no way you can discuss dreams and be purely scientific. Don't be such a jerk. TW Mental health will get you!!!!!!!!!! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 3 Jun 1998 03:54:40 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 258 Message-ID: <6l2he0$3qs@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny80-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 02 10:54:40 PM CDT 1998 In <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> "Ian Wilson" writes: > >> > Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try >to do. >> Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >> extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >> But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >> place. >It's a patient art of controlling one's own mind and that frequency with >that of the object. I have done very little telekinesis but enough to >satisfy myself that it has a potential that I will explore willingly till I >die. > >> >>out-of-body >> How does one do that? >We do it all the time, it is a naturally occuring phenomena that usually >misses one element, and that is waking consicousness so one does not >remeber, or only has distorted memory in forms of dreams passing through a >belief filter to their waking consciousness. > >> If one were to go step by step, how does it work? >This is a thought thing, you have to "think" yourself through it. The >process is simple. Take yourself as you percieve yourself consciously for >the unconscious ride. >To do that, you have to prepare yourself for consciousness in that >unconscious state. A transgression is in order. A bridge psychologically >must be built to carry you into a re-occuring unconscious feild of >consciousness. > >To do this, start simply by identifying with yourself what you are as >consciousness. > >Then you have to program your sleeping patterns to allow your conscious >self to remain intact while the body falls asleep. > >The easiest way to achieve this is to break up sleeping patterns and go to >sleep when physically tired, but mentally awake. This helps, but is not >nessicary. > >Before you go to bed. Ask yourself five logical questions and look at your >hands. Do this while standing. This is a test you will create for >yourself when you enter into a conscious sleeping state. The reason why? >To ensure you that you have brought along that logical part of you that we >attribute to our waking consciousness. It's presence is everything to us >in this feild. > >Having satisfied yourself with those five questions. An example that I use >is this > >What time is it? >What Is the Date? >What show did I watch before this session? >Two simple mathimatical questions. > >This little test is important initially because the logical faculties are >so important, and a lot of people ignore that truth. They think it's just >about being a right-brained individual. That is false, it's both sides of >the hemispheres working towards waking consciousness that is needed. > >Once you establish that you are intent on remaining conscious, the whole >key now is dissarming the naturally occuring states which induce >unconsciousness in the first place. Removing fears, doubts, concerns, and >allowing the body to fall asleep is all important. If you can "balance" >mentally as your body falls asleep and not get lost in the hypnotic, >hypogogic imagry and start to allow shifts of awareness into altered >states. The ride gets really easy. >We break it into three stages > >STAGE ONE :- Pre-sleep, the programming stage >STAGE TWO:- The shift through hypnogogic imagry/sound and sensations, and >the deep sleep of the body. >STAGE THREE:- The actual release from the body into that state. > >Just relax and give a mental INTENT on what exaclty it is you are doing. > >I have used an INTENT as simple as this: >INTENT:- I am remaining fully conscious as my body falls asleep. > >That simple and it works for me. But Some people have to pre-program this >intent a little more to help with certain factors that arise, that is why >you have to learn what exactly your mind does to "knock" you out! > >Using the intent is simple. You can customise it to deal with fears, >concerns, and uncomphortable states as the shift occures. >You might want to use an intent such as this one. > >Say this mentally in your head. >INTENT:- I am fully conscious and aware of myself as waking consciousness. >I realize that I can remain fully conscious when my body falls asleep. As >my body starts to relax, I will simply allow myself to remain alert and >aware as to not disturb the natural sleeping pattern of my physical body. >I will have full conscious ability, full analytical ability and will be >exactly as I am now, but in other states where I normally go unconsicously >into sleep. I have no fear, no worries, no concerns about being conscious >in these states since I am there unconsciously anyways. When I am in that >state, I will run my LOGICAL TEST that I just created for myself to test >how consciously aware I am. I will have a clear, detailed conscious memory >of the experience on waking as I will be there consciously to record it. I >am allowing this process to begin now. > >A much more larger INTENT but you can see how it may help anchor the >logical mind into wanting to go into these states for purely curious >reasons. There is no suggestions that it will be a lucid dream, and OOBE, >rather just a natural state you enter unconsciously, however this time you >will be consicous for it. This can and does help. > >STAGE TWO > >This is the fun stage, it's where all the colors, patterns and textures of >the mind come to life in vivid detail. Sometimes you skip right through >it. But if you don't, while passing through these feilds, just remain >totally calm, very relaxed and allow the changes to come as they do. Do >not push back any sounds, colors or images should they manifest. And if >you do get sounds, vibrations and images, let them continue knowing it is >just a natural phenomena entering into these states. NEVER be alarmed or >frightened because NOTHING can hurt you. This is totally safe, I mean, how >old are you and how many times have you fallen asleep and how many times >have you woke? The only difference now is you are consciously aware for >it. >That is it. Consciousness is the only change you made. Really that >simple. >Once the changes occure, you might experience a very tactile shift. You >might get violent vibrations that will feel like 10 000 volts of PAINLESS >electricity passing through your body. It's no big deal, a lot of people >experience it. The reason I feel best explains why is because you changed >a conscious shift in frequency from a 20 cycle count per second BETA to a >possible 12-4 cycle count THETA or DELTA. > >If you are getting these, just allow them to continue and understand that a >shift in conscious frequency to a higher frequency might explain the >tactile illusion of vibration. Always be calm and relax. Never let >anything startle you because the shifts can happen so fast sometimes. > >Once your body falls asleep it enters sleep paralysis. This state has >scared a few people because you feel trapped and your body doesn't respond >to your thoughts. >Well, that's because you are out-of-phase slightly and really it's easy to >go OOBE if this is the case. If you are in a state of sleep-paralysis, >just relax and "mentally" move in a very soft, slow rolling manner to the >left or right. And when you roll out, stand at the edge of the bed. Check >yourself to see if you are conscious, and run the test. Then turn back to >the bed and check to see if your body is there. >If so, I encourage you to remain calm, analytical and study the state for >what it is worth. Touch your non-physical arms, touch your non-physical >face, then touch your physical body. You might get some bi-location of >consicousness so you might feel yourself touching your body as you touch >it. That's normal too. Consciousness can be divided into many parts as I >have learned. That is more advanced and I don't teach that for some time. > >Then after satisfying that curiosity, explore the room, put your >non-physical hand through the wall, try to feel the changes. Push hard if >there is resistance, or just relax and push soft. Play with it so you >learn from it. And when you awake, write it all down as clearly as you >remeber it. And repeat the process as much as you like. >It takes getting used to. Read the Course on Consciousness Part Four, it's >on my website www.personal.img.net/iwilson. I cover this. > >> Especially the bit of going out in detail? >Practice every night before you sleep. Then wake up after about 5 hours, >and apply the technique again. Dicipline and practice is all you need. >The most important thing is document not the STAGE THREE result, rather how >you got there and what stopped you from getting there. Only you can >understand fully what works and doesn't. you will ultimately customise how >you go out, as you better understand how you can control your consciousness >in these unconscious states. And never be scared, worried or nervous if >the experience was very intense. It will be. >And I warn you, it may change your life forever. I take no responsibility >should you start to unlock the secrets of your own mind, and the mind of >the universe. That's your responsibility. Use it responsible if you >master it. > >I hope this help, but practice and application helps even more. Good luck, >and let me know if you have any results. I will help as much as I can. > >Cheers, > Ian > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet,neuroscience,sci,physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 3 Jun 1998 04:26:49 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 279 Message-ID: <6l2ja9$esi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny80-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 02 9:26:49 PM PDT 1998 WRONG NEWSGROUP! In <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" writes: > >Just want to thank you for a great post. >Even though I mostly knew everything in advance you really helped me >get things straight and affirm that the thing I knew is right. > >Keep up the good work... > > >Ian Wilson wrote in message <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord>... >>> > Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try >>to do. >>> Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >>> extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >>> But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >>> place. >>It's a patient art of controlling one's own mind and that frequency with >>that of the object. I have done very little telekinesis but enough to >>satisfy myself that it has a potential that I will explore willingly till I >>die. >> >>> >>out-of-body >>> How does one do that? >>We do it all the time, it is a naturally occurring phenomena that usually >>misses one element, and that is waking consciousness so one does not >>remember, or only has distorted memory in forms of dreams passing through a >>belief filter to their waking consciousness. >> >>> If one were to go step by step, how does it work? >>This is a thought thing, you have to "think" yourself through it. The >>process is simple. Take yourself as you perceive yourself consciously for >>the unconscious ride. >>To do that, you have to prepare yourself for consciousness in that >>unconscious state. A transgression is in order. A bridge psychologically >>must be built to carry you into a re-occurring unconscious field of >>consciousness. >> >>To do this, start simply by identifying with yourself what you are as >>consciousness. >> >>Then you have to program your sleeping patterns to allow your conscious >>self to remain intact while the body falls asleep. >> >>The easiest way to achieve this is to break up sleeping patterns and go to >>sleep when physically tired, but mentally awake. This helps, but is not >>nessicary. >> >>Before you go to bed. Ask yourself five logical questions and look at your >>hands. Do this while standing. This is a test you will create for >>yourself when you enter into a conscious sleeping state. The reason why? >>To ensure you that you have brought along that logical part of you that we >>attribute to our waking consciousness. It's presence is everything to us >>in this field. >> >>Having satisfied yourself with those five questions. An example that I use >>is this >> >>What time is it? >>What Is the Date? >>What show did I watch before this session? >>Two simple mathematical questions. >> >>This little test is important initially because the logical faculties are >>so important, and a lot of people ignore that truth. They think it's just >>about being a right-brained individual. That is false, it's both sides of >>the hemispheres working towards waking consciousness that is needed. >> >>Once you establish that you are intent on remaining conscious, the whole >>key now is disarming the naturally occurring states which induce >>unconsciousness in the first place. Removing fears, doubts, concerns, and >>allowing the body to fall asleep is all important. If you can "balance" >>mentally as your body falls asleep and not get lost in the hypnotic, >>hypogogic imagery and start to allow shifts of awareness into altered >>states. The ride gets really easy. >>We break it into three stages >> >>STAGE ONE :- Pre-sleep, the programming stage >>STAGE TWO:- The shift through hypnogogic imagery/sound and sensations, and >>the deep sleep of the body. >>STAGE THREE:- The actual release from the body into that state. >> >>Just relax and give a mental INTENT on what exactly it is you are doing. >> >>I have used an INTENT as simple as this: >>INTENT:- I am remaining fully conscious as my body falls asleep. >> >>That simple and it works for me. But Some people have to pre-program this >>intent a little more to help with certain factors that arise, that is why >>you have to learn what exactly your mind does to "knock" you out! >> >>Using the intent is simple. You can customize it to deal with fears, >>concerns, and uncomfortable states as the shift occurs. >>You might want to use an intent such as this one. >> >>Say this mentally in your head. >>INTENT:- I am fully conscious and aware of myself as waking consciousness. >>I realize that I can remain fully conscious when my body falls asleep. As >>my body starts to relax, I will simply allow myself to remain alert and >>aware as to not disturb the natural sleeping pattern of my physical body. >>I will have full conscious ability, full analytical ability and will be >>exactly as I am now, but in other states where I normally go unconsciously >>into sleep. I have no fear, no worries, no concerns about being conscious >>in these states since I am there unconsciously anyways. When I am in that >>state, I will run my LOGICAL TEST that I just created for myself to test >>how consciously aware I am. I will have a clear, detailed conscious memory >>of the experience on waking as I will be there consciously to record it. I >>am allowing this process to begin now. >> >>A much more larger INTENT but you can see how it may help anchor the >>logical mind into wanting to go into these states for purely curious >>reasons. There is no suggestions that it will be a lucid dream, and OOBE, >>rather just a natural state you enter unconsciously, however this time you >>will be conscious for it. This can and does help. >> >>STAGE TWO >> >>This is the fun stage, it's where all the colors, patterns and textures of >>the mind come to life in vivid detail. Sometimes you skip right through >>it. But if you don't, while passing through these fields, just remain >>totally calm, very relaxed and allow the changes to come as they do. Do >>not push back any sounds, colors or images should they manifest. And if >>you do get sounds, vibrations and images, let them continue knowing it is >>just a natural phenomena entering into these states. NEVER be alarmed or >>frightened because NOTHING can hurt you. This is totally safe, I mean, how >>old are you and how many times have you fallen asleep and how many times >>have you woke? The only difference now is you are consciously aware for >>it. >>That is it. Consciousness is the only change you made. Really that >>simple. >>Once the changes occur, you might experience a very tactile shift. You >>might get violent vibrations that will feel like 10 000 volts of PAINLESS >>electricity passing through your body. It's no big deal, a lot of people >>experience it. The reason I feel best explains why is because you changed >>a conscious shift in frequency from a 20 cycle count per second BETA to a >>possible 12-4 cycle count THETA or DELTA. >> >>If you are getting these, just allow them to continue and understand that a >>shift in conscious frequency to a higher frequency might explain the >>tactile illusion of vibration. Always be calm and relax. Never let >>anything startle you because the shifts can happen so fast sometimes. >> >>Once your body falls asleep it enters sleep paralysis. This state has >>scared a few people because you feel trapped and your body doesn't respond >>to your thoughts. >>Well, that's because you are out-of-phase slightly and really it's easy to >>go OOBE if this is the case. If you are in a state of sleep-paralysis, >>just relax and "mentally" move in a very soft, slow rolling manner to the >>left or right. And when you roll out, stand at the edge of the bed. Check >>yourself to see if you are conscious, and run the test. Then turn back to >>the bed and check to see if your body is there. >>If so, I encourage you to remain calm, analytical and study the state for >>what it is worth. Touch your non-physical arms, touch your non-physical >>face, then touch your physical body. You might get some bi-location of >>consciousness so you might feel yourself touching your body as you touch >>it. That's normal too. Consciousness can be divided into many parts as I >>have learned. That is more advanced and I don't teach that for some time. >> >>Then after satisfying that curiosity, explore the room, put your >>non-physical hand through the wall, try to feel the changes. Push hard if >>there is resistance, or just relax and push soft. Play with it so you >>learn from it. And when you awake, write it all down as clearly as you >>remember it. And repeat the process as much as you like. >>It takes getting used to. Read the Course on Consciousness Part Four, it's >>on my website www.personal.img.net/iwilson. I cover this. >> >>> Especially the bit of going out in detail? >>Practice every night before you sleep. Then wake up after about 5 hours, >>and apply the technique again. Discipline and practice is all you need. >>The most important thing is document not the STAGE THREE result, rather how >>you got there and what stopped you from getting there. Only you can >>understand fully what works and doesn't. you will ultimately customize how >>you go out, as you better understand how you can control your consciousness >>in these unconscious states. And never be scared, worried or nervous if >>the experience was very intense. It will be. >>And I warn you, it may change your life forever. I take no responsibility >>should you start to unlock the secrets of your own mind, and the mind of >>the universe. That's your responsibility. Use it responsible if you >>master it. >> >>I hope this help, but practice and application helps even more. Good luck, >>and let me know if you have any results. I will help as much as I can. >> >>Cheers, >> Ian >> >> > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!netnews.jhuapl.edu!usenet From: Jim Hunter Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:11:15 -0400 Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3575E623.6C31@REMOVE_TO_EMAIL.jhuapl.edu> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6l2ja9$esi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: huntejd1.jhuapl.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Neil Franklin wrote: [...] > Why? Because you simply add to the off topic messages going around! > First your own message, then any replies to your message. Nothing can possibly be off topic in a telekinesis thread. I read your message before you wrote it, so this post is not actually a reply, but a request for you to post your message so that I can post mine. --- Jim ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 03 Jun 1998 23:34:28 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 103 Message-ID: References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <355d8320.856335@news.twics.com> <3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de> <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com> <6l2ja9$esi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) writes: > Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body, > alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics > > WRONG NEWSGROUP! > > In <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" > writes: > > > >Just want to thank you for a great post. > > > >Ian Wilson wrote in message <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord>... > >>> > Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try > >>to do. > >>> Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and > >>> extending life for centuries might be more tricky. > >>> But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first > >>> place. > >>It's a patient art of controlling one's own mind and that frequency > with > >>that of the object. I have done very little telekinesis but enough > to > >>satisfy myself that it has a potential that I will explore willingly > till I > >>die. [rest snipped to save bandwidth] A few nits I have with the 2 later posters: 1. Lars and Frank: Would you please consider changing 2 things with your posting styles: - firstly, respect the convention that most people read an discussion top to bottom. So put first the post you are refering to, and then add your additions to it. This makes following the discussion thread a lot easier, as one can first recall what thread you are refering to and then assimilate your new stuff to it. This is a lot more human brain compatible than forcing them to first read the new stuff and then only telling them where it belongs. - secondly, only leave in your post those parts of the message you are explicitely referring to (or if you are refering to an entire post just enough lines for your reader to identify which one you are commenting on). This reduces unneccessary usage of bandwidth. For an good example of posting style you need to look no further than Ian Wilsons post you followed up on. He did both of these things right. I could also suggest my humble post :-). This one is particularly funny in the case of Frank who posts us an full 2 copies of an post, when he is actually complaining about that post being sent. Thanks for making an fool of yourself! 2. Frank only: I also have 2 things you should take into account when complaining: - firstly, when calling someone to drop whatever newsgroup you are reading an thread in, it pays to tell them in which newsgroup that is. As the Newsgroups: line says, this thread is being crossposted (i.e. is visible) in 7 news groups. In some of them it is on topic, in some not. How should any poster know which group you wished dropped if you do not tell them? They will not drop all (= stop following up). - secondly, sending "drop this thread" messages is considered an stupid thing to do on Usenet. Why? Because you simply add to the off topic messages going around! First your own message, then any replies to your message. And you usually do not achieve your desire anyway. Because people will a) post the reply to your message to all groups (they don't know where you are, so they must) b) usually don't extend the off topic threads content by posting replies to your post c) when replying to other sub-threads forget to remove your group anyway. The best you can do is to learn and accept that this is Usenet and that both crossposting and topic drift exist. And that any thread will die out naturally, that includes off topic ones. And that by complaining you are just lengthening the to-you-undesirable thread. If you do not like this then go for moderated newsgroups or mailing lists. There you have an official that tidies it up for you. Here on Usenet we prefer the anarchist approach without censorship. This may not be the medium for you. This was an public service broadcast from the net.police.selfappointed Yours.. -- private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!london-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 4 Jun 1998 02:59:24 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 136 Message-ID: <6l52ic$r3q@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny78-33.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 03 7:59:24 PM PDT 1998 In Neil Franklin writes: > >flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) writes: >> Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body, >> alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics >> >> WRONG NEWSGROUP! >> >> In <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com> "Lars Rune Foleide" >> writes: >> > >> >Just want to thank you for a great post. >> > >> >Ian Wilson wrote in message <01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord>... >> >>> > Actually, telekinesis is the most difficult thing a psychic might try >> >>to do. >> >>> Possible, though personally I believe that going through walls and >> >>> extending life for centuries might be more tricky. >> >>> But then again I don't understand enough about magic in the first >> >>> place. >> >>It's a patient art of controlling one's own mind and that frequency >> with >> >>that of the object. I have done very little telekinesis but enough >> to >> >>satisfy myself that it has a potential that I will explore willingly >> till I >> >>die. > >[rest snipped to save bandwidth] > >A few nits I have with the 2 later posters: > > >1. Lars and Frank: > >Would you please consider changing 2 things with your posting styles: > >- firstly, respect the convention that most people read an discussion >top to bottom. So put first the post you are refering to, and then add >your additions to it. > >This makes following the discussion thread a lot easier, as one can >first recall what thread you are refering to and then assimilate your >new stuff to it. This is a lot more human brain compatible than >forcing them to first read the new stuff and then only telling them >where it belongs. > >- secondly, only leave in your post those parts of the message you >are explicitely referring to (or if you are refering to an entire post >just enough lines for your reader to identify which one you are >commenting on). This reduces unneccessary usage of bandwidth. > >For an good example of posting style you need to look no further than >Ian Wilsons post you followed up on. He did both of these things >right. I could also suggest my humble post :-). > >This one is particularly funny in the case of Frank who posts us an >full 2 copies of an post, when he is actually complaining about that >post being sent. Thanks for making an fool of yourself! > > >2. Frank only: > >I also have 2 things you should take into account when complaining: > >- firstly, when calling someone to drop whatever newsgroup you are >reading an thread in, it pays to tell them in which newsgroup that is. > >As the Newsgroups: line says, this thread is being crossposted (i.e. >is visible) in 7 news groups. In some of them it is on topic, in some >not. How should any poster know which group you wished dropped if you >do not tell them? They will not drop all (= stop following up). > >- secondly, sending "drop this thread" messages is considered an >stupid thing to do on Usenet. > >Why? Because you simply add to the off topic messages going around! >First your own message, then any replies to your message. > >And you usually do not achieve your desire anyway. Because people will >a) post the reply to your message to all groups (they don't know where >you are, so they must) >b) usually don't extend the off topic threads content by posting >replies to your post >c) when replying to other sub-threads forget to remove your group anyway. > >The best you can do is to learn and accept that this is Usenet and >that both crossposting and topic drift exist. And that any thread will >die out naturally, that includes off topic ones. And that by >complaining you are just lengthening the to-you-undesirable thread. > >If you do not like this then go for moderated newsgroups or mailing >lists. There you have an official that tidies it up for you. Here on >Usenet we prefer the anarchist approach without censorship. This may >not be the medium for you. > > >This was an public service broadcast from the net.police.selfappointed > >Yours.. > >-- >private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ >office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ >WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you >t this is Usenet and >that both crossposting and topic drift exist. And that any thread will >die out naturally, that includes off topic ones. And that by >complaining you are just lengthening the to-you-undesirable thread. > >If you do not like this then go for moderated newsgroups or mailing >lists. There you have an official that tidies it up for you. Here on >Usenet we prefer the anarchist approach without censorship. This may >not be the medium for you. > > >This was an public service broadcast from the net.police.selfappointed > >Yours.. > >-- >private: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.remove http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ >office: franklin@arch.ethz.ch.remove http://caad.arch.ethz.ch/~franklin/ >WinCE car, crashing soon on a road near you ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: flefever@ix.netcom.com(F. Frank LeFever) Newsgroups: alt,dreams,alt,dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: 4 Jun 1998 03:00:24 GMT Organization: ICGNetcom Lines: 21 Message-ID: <6l52k8$7b8@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord> <3575E623.6C31@REMOVE_TO_EMAIL.jhuapl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc-ny78-33.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 03 10:00:24 PM CDT 1998 In <3575E623.6C31@REMOVE_TO_EMAIL.jhuapl.edu> Jim Hunter writes: > >Neil Franklin wrote: > > [...] > > > > Why? Because you simply add to the off topic messages going around! > > First your own message, then any replies to your message. > > > Nothing can possibly be off topic in a telekinesis thread. > I read your message before you wrote it, so this post is > not actually a reply, but a request for you to post your > message so that I can post mine. > > > --- > Jim ###### From: "Lars Rune Foleide" Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.dreams.lucid,alt.oobe,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranet.psi,bionet.neuroscience,sci.physics References: <01bd7f2d$cf0662c0$819022cf@deathlord><355d8320.856335@news.twics.com><3560822a.1560693@news.zedat.fu-berlin.de><01bd8db0$895a5100$LocalHost@deathlord> <357426a5.0@d2o204.telia.com><6l2ja9$esi@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: A Course on Conciousness part 2. Precognitive dreams and communication. Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:53:37 +0200 Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3105.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3105.0 NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p27.telia.com X-NNTP-Posting-Host: t8o204p27.telia.com Message-ID: <35771719.0@d2o204.telia.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.no Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!fci-se!fci!masternews.telia.net!newsfeed50.telia.com!d2o204.telia.com!t8o204p27.telia.com >This one is particularly funny in the case of Frank who posts us an >full 2 copies of an post, when he is actually complaining about that >post being sent. Thanks for making an fool of yourself! > I just have to agree on that, when Frank post a reply on a message, without writing anything, then I start to wonder if this guy is totally insane or what..... It sure as hell isn't normal and I can't see what the purpose is... A complete fool if you ask me..... And if Frank hadn't responded to any of the messages, then this thread would have died a long time ago.