Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:17:15 -0800 Lines: 6 Message-ID: <3532B915.2172@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892512560 6580 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely different subjective experiences...can I? anyone? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:03:56 -0800 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <35330A55.4B5B@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <3532E3B7.99D95072@siscom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892533361 16946 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Actually, I've learned a lot from the cross posts lately. I'm much less likely to read alt.oob, so it's nice to be *accidentally* in touch with some people who have experience with them. I've only had one, but it was so different than LDs (which I've had for years). I'd like to say it was more "real", but that wouldn't be right. I guess the only way to describe the difference would be to say that the oobe was more physical somehow. In my lucid dreams I am aware that I am dreaming. In that one oobe, I was frighteningly aware that I was NOT dreaming. nil wrote: > > mdoli@best.com wrote: > > > > I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from > > oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact > > the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely > > different subjective experiences...can I? > > > > anyone? > > Having experienced both (however briefly), I can't help but feel > you're correct: they are two different phenomena. I think where part of > the confusion comes from is that a lot of OBEers often look at LD as > primarily a springboard to an OBE. (I think that's also why a lot of > OBEers, myself included, may sometimes inappropriately cross-post: we > tend to think of OBE and LD as very closely related, a feeling that the > LD group doesn't necessarily share...) > > Trying to be more careful about cross-posting, > nil ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: Gail Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:15:22 -0700 Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3532FEFA.785AC0DB@cidcorp.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 9535@206.42.106.139 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) I also see them as entirely different things. To me one is literally 'in one's mind while in one's body sleeping' the other is 'in one's mind while out of one's body which is sleeping'. This, of course, is only my opinion. But I see LD as another way of, well, dreaming. OBE is the spirit, or part of the spirit (for lack of a better word) actually leaving the confines of the physical body. gail mdoli@best.com wrote: > > I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from > oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact > the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely > different subjective experiences...can I? > > anyone? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news-xfer.siscom.net!news.siscom.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3532E3B7.99D95072@siscom.net> From: nil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:19:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp123.midd-oh.siscom.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:19:18 EST mdoli@best.com wrote: > > I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from > oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact > the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely > different subjective experiences...can I? > > anyone? Having experienced both (however briefly), I can't help but feel you're correct: they are two different phenomena. I think where part of the confusion comes from is that a lot of OBEers often look at LD as primarily a springboard to an OBE. (I think that's also why a lot of OBEers, myself included, may sometimes inappropriately cross-post: we tend to think of OBE and LD as very closely related, a feeling that the LD group doesn't necessarily share...) Trying to be more careful about cross-posting, nil ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.124.0.31!pulsar.dimensional.com!dimensional.com!beetle.privatei.com!not-for-mail From: Ken Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:03:37 -0600 Organization: Sound Sculpture Lines: 39 Message-ID: <35343FA9.5D2D4CAA@soundsculpture.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <3532FEFA.785AC0DB@cidcorp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp7.privatei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) I have been vacillating between same and not same recently. At first I thought there was no way they were the same thing and then I started thinking that perhaps they were, but now I'm back to thinking they are not again. The biggest gripe I have with thinking that they are the same phenomenon is the matter of permanence. The way things just stick around when you are in an OBE. In an LD things change too quickly. I would like to work more with this theory, and I was hoping the Sphinx trip would help. The other thing is how I can always have an OBE from an awake state, but cannot have a LD from an awake state. Although I have gone from an OBE to an LD. I don't think I've ever gone from an LD to an OBE unless it was an OBE while I was dreaming which is sort of a poor way to have an OBE since you can't tell if it is an OBE or not. Ken Gail wrote: > > I also see them as entirely different things. To me one is literally > 'in one's mind while in one's body sleeping' the other is 'in one's mind > while out of one's body which is sleeping'. This, of course, is only my > opinion. But I see LD as another way of, well, dreaming. OBE is the > spirit, or part of the spirit (for lack of a better word) actually > leaving the confines of the physical body. > > gail > > mdoli@best.com wrote: > > > > I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from > > oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact > > the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely > > different subjective experiences...can I? > > > > anyone? "Everything should be as simple as possible but not one bit simpler." -Albert Einstein ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!denver-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!coop.net!beetle.privatei.com!not-for-mail From: Ken Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:08:39 -0600 Organization: Sound Sculpture Lines: 135 Message-ID: <353440D7.36F334E6@soundsculpture.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp7.privatei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Thought provoking post. Thanks. Ken Rainbowbird wrote: > > mdoli@best.com wrote: > > > > I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from > > oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact > > the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely > > different subjective experiences...can I? > > > > anyone? > > I start to believe that they are different stages of the same thing. > So I started to read both NG's. > I see that the definition is not clear by many people. > What is what. > In OBE there are a lot of posts about OBE that I consider a lucid dream. > Here There are post that I consider more an OBE. > To me it doesn't matter. > I handle Castaneda idea of the assemblepoint. And shifting that to > different realities. > I also do shamanic journeys and I consider that as a form of awaken > dreaming.It goes into the same thing. Shifting the assemble point. > Those 3 categories are all part of the possibily to shift awareness. > And we could learn much more and quicker if we would dare to realize > that we are talking one thing here. > Obe is not better or more advanced then any of the other possibilities, > but just a different experience of our power to shift. > It is all basic to shamanic knowledge and experience. > We have to be aware that it is not only something that we can experience > but also something we can use. > Making different categories out of that skill,is ok, but only if you > keep in mind that they are different levels only. > Everyone as good as the other. > By dividing it, knowledge gets assembled in the different levels. > But my oh my, The ABC that is created in the different sections tends > more to confuse then to help. > It could be right that Lucid is a step towards OBE. But that only seems > so. Assemblegde point shift. period. > I would like to know if any OBE'er can wander throught his dream with > ease.Recognize if he shifts to another "world" how to recognize that he > is there. Because real lucid dreaming is not just wandering in your > mind. Castaneda writes how to regognize that. The objects radiate > energy. I realized by looking into that, that also in dreams are > different possibilities. By now I can tell an ordinary dream, from a > different reality dream. > I also had a lot of beliefstructures due to all kind of different > believesystems. I am getting rid of them. > Example: I tried to see my hands in my dreams. I couldn't succed for a > year. Then I suddently realized by talking to someone about dreams: > That I could shift in dreams out of my body seeing myself completly. > I also could shift in myself. So I dream associated and dissociated. > I gave up seeing my hands because I saw myself already. > I made a lot of progress then. > I expected an OBE always like a violent something, but lately I am > accepting experiences on that level as an OBE, even if it doesn't meet > the description it should follow. > > We are so used in this scientific world to think linear, that we hardly > can imagine that conciousness doesn't behave linear. > We can achieve one before the other if we are not hindered by ideas and > stuff. My point is: > All definition are useful, but in the same way blocking if we want to > meet the expectation and definition of others. > So I resolved all information overload into one working idea for me: > Shifting the assemblepoint. From here I can go anywhere use what I find > useful.But I also can avoid being trapped by to many definitions that > have come from others. > Rainbowbird ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail From: Rainbowbird Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:38:33 +0200 Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Message-ID: <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: asd03-02.dial.xs4all.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-XS4ALL-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:41:10 CEST X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Lines: 66 mdoli@best.com wrote: > > I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from > oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact > the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely > different subjective experiences...can I? > > anyone? I start to believe that they are different stages of the same thing. So I started to read both NG's. I see that the definition is not clear by many people. What is what. In OBE there are a lot of posts about OBE that I consider a lucid dream. Here There are post that I consider more an OBE. To me it doesn't matter. I handle Castaneda idea of the assemblepoint. And shifting that to different realities. I also do shamanic journeys and I consider that as a form of awaken dreaming.It goes into the same thing. Shifting the assemble point. Those 3 categories are all part of the possibily to shift awareness. And we could learn much more and quicker if we would dare to realize that we are talking one thing here. Obe is not better or more advanced then any of the other possibilities, but just a different experience of our power to shift. It is all basic to shamanic knowledge and experience. We have to be aware that it is not only something that we can experience but also something we can use. Making different categories out of that skill,is ok, but only if you keep in mind that they are different levels only. Everyone as good as the other. By dividing it, knowledge gets assembled in the different levels. But my oh my, The ABC that is created in the different sections tends more to confuse then to help. It could be right that Lucid is a step towards OBE. But that only seems so. Assemblegde point shift. period. I would like to know if any OBE'er can wander throught his dream with ease.Recognize if he shifts to another "world" how to recognize that he is there. Because real lucid dreaming is not just wandering in your mind. Castaneda writes how to regognize that. The objects radiate energy. I realized by looking into that, that also in dreams are different possibilities. By now I can tell an ordinary dream, from a different reality dream. I also had a lot of beliefstructures due to all kind of different believesystems. I am getting rid of them. Example: I tried to see my hands in my dreams. I couldn't succed for a year. Then I suddently realized by talking to someone about dreams: That I could shift in dreams out of my body seeing myself completly. I also could shift in myself. So I dream associated and dissociated. I gave up seeing my hands because I saw myself already. I made a lot of progress then. I expected an OBE always like a violent something, but lately I am accepting experiences on that level as an OBE, even if it doesn't meet the description it should follow. We are so used in this scientific world to think linear, that we hardly can imagine that conciousness doesn't behave linear. We can achieve one before the other if we are not hindered by ideas and stuff. My point is: All definition are useful, but in the same way blocking if we want to meet the expectation and definition of others. So I resolved all information overload into one working idea for me: Shifting the assemblepoint. From here I can go anywhere use what I find useful.But I also can avoid being trapped by to many definitions that have come from others. Rainbowbird ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:15:50 -0800 Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892652876 15801 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Rainbowbird wrote: Castaneda writes I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey03.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: zyphrhart@aol.com (Zyphr Hart) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Lines: 12 Message-ID: <1998041512090600.IAA02337@ladder03.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder03.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Apr 1998 12:09:05 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com References: <6h23td$k2$1@rhea.glo.be> >Did anyone experience this the other way? Does anyone feel fear in LD, or does anyone OBE without any amount of fear? For the longest time, it was fear that kept me from leaving. But after I learned about "The Dweller" I was able to face "myself". And now fear is a thing of the past. Not to say that I haven't been scared during a projection. (Like when this guy pulled out a gun and shot me.) Zyphr Hart ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!news-lond.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.he.net!news.pbi.net!not-for-mail From: HeWhoGetsSlapped Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:45:55 -0700 Organization: Annunaki & Sons Lines: 13 Message-ID: <35350E73.5D82@pacbell.net> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-206-170-217-138.nhwd02.pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; I) > mdoli wrote: > >I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently > >wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the > >stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they > >are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. Well, Nietzsche made up Zarathustra and yet their is boundless wisdom contained within the tale. I never read Castanenda's books so I have no idea as to wether they contain anything of worth or not. I tend to be skeptical about metaphysical books like that, especially after reading Celestine Prophecy which wins as the worst piece of garbage I have read to date. bunbury ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news.glo.be!not-for-mail From: "Wim Van Haver" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:58:37 +0200 Organization: Customer of Globe Internet NV Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6h23td$k2$1@rhea.glo.be> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p3-15.z03.glo.be X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 mdoli@best.com wrote in message <3532B915.2172@best.com>... >I've always thought of Lucid dreaming as something quite different from >oob. What I see posted a lot though, is the theory that they are in fact >the same thing. I can't be the only one who feels them as entirely >different subjective experiences...can I? > >anyone? The main difference between my OBEs and LDs: In My LDs, I haven't got the slightest trace of fear (not when becoming lucid, nor afterwards). In my OBEs, I have to fight fear (mostly when leaving, but also afterwards). Did anyone experience this the other way? Does anyone feel fear in LD, or does anyone OBE without any amount of fear? Wim Van Haver ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!208.134.241.18!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:36:45 -0800 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <35352855.1D47@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892672109 24600 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > So Castaneda very probably did 'just make it all up' - but that > doesn't devalue his insights and observations. > All best wishes, > Julia Hawkes-Moore. No, no, I was not intending to devalue his insights and observations at all. I suppose that without (you) having actually read her account of life with him during the writing of his many books it's very hard for me to explain without sounding as if my mouth is full of sour grapes ;} Her point was much like yours in some ways, that the books he wrote were fiction, but that they were still amazing and wise on a spiritual level. Im not arguing with that. My point was that many people seem to think that his books were fact, true field notes, which they are not. She gave examples (of dinner conversations for instance, or experiences of friends) which later showed up as first person accounts in his books. My reason for posting was that (as a Native American) I get so tired of anglo-urbanites reading a bit of Castaneda and deciding that they are suddenly a "Shaman". As if a quick reading of the Bible could allow someone to decide one sunny afternoon that they are now a priest! Or as if wearing dreadlocks gives anyone a true understanding of what Rasta is about. So, I'm not sure how you can say in your post that Im "wrong" since there _is_ eveidence that his work is purely fiction. Although I think as long as people know that and keep a level head, the fact that it's fiction doesn't take away from the power of the work at all. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:47:16 -0800 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <353538E9.7740@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35350E73.5D82@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892676352 26578 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) HeWhoGetsSlapped wrote: > > > mdoli wrote: > > >I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently > > >wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the > > >stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they > > >are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. > > Well, Nietzsche made up Zarathustra and yet their is boundless wisdom > contained within the tale. > I never read Castanenda's books so I have no idea as to wether they > contain anything of worth or not. I tend to be skeptical about > metaphysical books like that, especially after reading Celestine > Prophecy which wins as the worst piece of garbage I have read to date. > bunbury yeesh! I really never expected to get so much heat for my post! ;} bunbury, yes, but I'm thinking Nietzsche was at least honest about the fact that he was writing fiction. Castaneda has pretended all along that he was just publishing his field notes, it wasn't until his wife wrote her book that it became clear he was writing fiction. Very different eh? And I agree 100% about Celestine Phophesy...just think if people actually thought it was a true story! yikes! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:51:01 -0800 Lines: 6 Message-ID: <353539C9.2A59@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35350E73.5D82@pacbell.net> <353538E9.7740@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892676587 26950 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) > . Castaneda has pretended all along that > he was just publishing his field notes, it wasn't until his wife wrote > her book that it became clear he was writing fiction. In other words, while this may not detract from the value of the work, I think it certainly detracts from the integrity of the author. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.clark.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp2.dejanews.com!nnrp1.dejanews.com!not-for-mail From: sunfoot@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:25:57 -0600 Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Lines: 22 Message-ID: <6h354l$mv4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 146.18.173.70 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 15 20:25:57 1998 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.04 [en]C-FedExIntl (WinNT; I) > > Rainbowbird wrote: > > Castaneda writes > > > I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently > wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the > stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they > are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. > Stories.. or Divine inspiration? Whether universal knowledge comes to us from a prophet, or a garbage man, it matters not; as long as it comes. Sunfoot -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:52:55 -0800 Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3535565C.72D8@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35352855.1D47@best.com> <35353822.15016220@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892683892 29978 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > I don't think I did say you were wrong: I certainly didn't intend > to - I said I thought the wife of the writer might be wrong to dismiss > his work as fiction, ah! how cool that we can reply and clarify here eh? I don't think she was dismissing his work as much as she was revealing the true nature of the author. She did love him after all, but I gather she didn't like what he eventually became. Castaneda pretending that his work was nonfiction set up a situation where he was seen as guru and all "below" him seen as inferior because they could not produce the same results in their own lives (results he only pretended to have produced). He even went so far as to do many personal appearances and hold seminars (all at a very pretty penny I assure you) trying to teach people his "techniques" when the only "success" he'd ever had improving his life with these techniques was the royalties showing up in the bank book ;} because the point of my post was to suggest that > there is no such thing as 'pure fiction', Oh I agree! I am a huge Castaneda fan, I just don't like being bluffed. > Mrs Castaneda's book on the top of my 'to read' list. Ya, I found it by accident in a used bookstore. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll snail mail you my copy. > Interesting discussion: thank you. very, thank you :} (it's so hard to find a good thread these days isn't it?) <--- a bit of irony right back atcha > Friends? :-) sure! ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:22:39 GMT Organization: UUNet UK server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet UK) Lines: 57 Message-ID: <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: am085.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 mdoli wrote: >Rainbowbird wrote: > > Castaneda writes > > >I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently >wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the >stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they >are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. Now here is an interesting challenge to an individual's definition of reality. I liked Rainbowbird's list of Lucid, OBE and Shaman 'awaken dreaming' as three different states, although connected (like influenza makes you hot, cold, weak, dizzy etc but it is all still 'flu). To that list I could add other states (all equally undefined by scientists, I suspect!) including religious ecstacy, levitation, light and deep trance, meditations of various types (from TM to Kundalini to Martial Arts), fortune-telling, telepathy, drink & drugs, orgasm, channelling, Near-Death-Experience, fasting, illness, and endless others including the oddest one of all for me, the state of being a writer. Now I haven't yet read this book by Mrs Castaneda, but I am a professional and published writer, married to someone who is not a fiction writer, and who is an 'unbeliever' in altered states (although willing to consider conversion at some point in the future!). Therefore, I sympathise with Mrs C saying that Carlos "made it all up", and I understand that she is wrong. My novels and short stories are 'all made up', that is they are not textbooks or biographies of my characters or of myself. Yet they are threaded through with truth, experience and personal interpretations of mysteries I have encountered and considered, just as much as Castaneda's books are. Without those influences, they would not be fiction. That is not the same as being lies. 'Gulliver's Travels' is lies, but with a deep and meaningful social commentary threaded through. Many 'mystic' writers, from the authors of the Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls to Poe and Shelley, told good stories, and used them to lightly conceal real truths. They can all be read on amny levels. The seeker of knowledge would follow the clues and recognise the mutual awareness of mystery and power far beyond the everyday. Someone once told me that writers were the only people who were actually working whilst they were staring blankly out of a window. That is in itself an altered state; another is reading 'letters writ in red fire on the inside of my sleeping eyes', as poems often announce their arrival. The 'best' for me is the moment when my writing suddenly 'lifts off' and I become only the physical operator of the keyboard, whilst my 'soul' dictates the words. When in this state, I have occasionally observed passively that I am undergoing an OBE, with my consciousness linked to my body only by a silver cord twisting through the starry galaxy. The finished writing is always excellent, surprising, and flawless: divine inspiration indeed. So Castaneda very probably did 'just make it all up' - but that doesn't devalue his insights and observations. All best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: Donald Heller Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:58:52 +0000 Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 80 Message-ID: <35351F8C.446E@loop.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35352855.1D47@best.com> <35353822.15016220@news.dial.pipex.com> Reply-To: heller@loop.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 16281@207.211.63.35 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Win95; I) Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > mdoli wrote: > I can only speak from personal experience. I'm a 63 year-old rocket scientist, I've read all of Castaneda and Nietzsche and much else. I've learned to take non-fiction with a huge dose of salt, including scientific textbooks. I've found there is much more truth in fiction. I think all fiction is, in general, Roman a clef or autobiographical. People invariably think, when they read something, that they have penetrated to the ultimate level of subtlety, while in truth much of the material is simply over their head. I remember the shock I felt after I had read every critical review of Magister Ludi, and realized that not one critic even hinted at the most powerful blazing theme of the book, and this is the book that won the Nobel prize for Hesse. I see this all the time in movie reviews, where the reviewer has a childish naivete about the meaning of the plot. So much fiction, and so much non-fiction, is written with an ax to grind, and we are constantly being manipulated (fnord). About the only thing I remember from grade school was taught by an early English teacher, and I have never forgotten it: "Read not to believe, but to weigh and consider." Julia, I loved your long comment. I've saved it to a file so I can reread it from time to time. It has both truth and beauty. To me, LD and OBE are entirely different phenomena. An LD can be used to trigger an OBE, and I have done this only once. I did not know what was happening at the time, as it was long before I had studied the masters. It was so compelling that I tried very hard to do it again, yet I was completely terrified; I was under the impression that I was PHYSICALLY flying, and feared that if I lost my concentration, I would fall to my death. Seems amusing now, but not then. I think part of the confusion lies in where one goes while OOB. I believe the non-physical part of us actually leaves the body, but if it goes to the astral world, or mental world, or spirit world, there is no way to do a scientifically peer-reviewed paper on this so it can be repeated by "anyone properly skilled". The type where the Double travels the Physical world of consensual reality, and can observe photographable events, and bring back spy information, is what non-OBEers want to see, and so do the CIA, KGB, IRS, Mafia, King Midas, and Beavis & Butthead. Only a fool with a very short life expectancy would go public with this. Don Juan says that Fear is the first enemy of a Man of Knowledge, and this is what stops most explorers in this realm. We see only a little of that here, some who are expressing that fear and are seeking help, but the others just drop out or never really get into it very deeply. He says that fear is overcome when you make enough progress to achieve Clarity. But one can be defeated by clarity as well; when one thinks they understand it all. Then they stop progressing and make money or disciples based on their wonderful clarity. I see a lot of this in the books, TV, mags, and even (or especially) NGs. You put it well, the gamut of experiences. The best thing I heard expressed by Don Juan is that life is a mystery. It is so much more complex than these little compartments we try to put the experiences into, and then define them so precisely. It's phlogiston, and ether, and humours. Perhaps we should not think of it as anything "vs" anything, but rather an enormous mysterious world within, or transcending, or interpenetrating, our consensual world, which may or may not be physical, or partly physical, or entirely solipsistic, which is a giant peach to explore and savor. None of us, I believe, are slugs that work 9 to 5 in a horrid job, and go home to drink beer and watch sports, bang the spouse, wake up and do it again. Explore! Dare! I'm the king of the world! Whoops, wrong show. Sorry about the cavalier disdain for bandwidth, but I haven't posted for a long time, and I was waiting to exhale. Don ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail From: hawksmoor@dial.pipex.com (Julia Hawkes-Moore) Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:07:00 GMT Organization: UUNet UK server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet UK) Lines: 51 Message-ID: <35353822.15016220@news.dial.pipex.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35352855.1D47@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: aa156.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 mdoli wrote: . My point was that many people seem to think >that his (Castaneda's) books were fact, true field notes, which they are not. Sorry that I have appeared even remotely aggressive about writers' priorities! The saddest thing to me in daily life is that 'many people' (amongst which I do not include the members of this ng!) don't understand when writers use irony. This is the commonest writers' fault of all. I've often been reprimanded for using irony in the past- I genuinely thought that my listeners would understand it. I was wrong. Only today, our local newspaper (of which I was once editor) reported that over 100 people rang them in a few hours to complain in horror about the three news articles printed in last week's paper. All three articles were completely daft inventions and were published on April Fool's Day. Yet over 100 people were sufficiently shocked to ring or write to the paper, so a thousand more must have been almost as surprised. The paper's circulation is only about 10,000 copies. I find this very depressing. I never believe what I read in newspapers or fiction or anything, really. But I do enjoy being inspired, challenged, amazed and amused. >My reason for posting was that (as a Native American) I get so tired of >anglo-urbanites reading a bit of Castaneda and deciding that they are >suddenly a "Shaman". As if a quick reading of the Bible could allow >someone to decide one sunny afternoon that they are now a priest! Or as >if wearing dreadlocks gives anyone a true understanding of what Rasta is >about. I entirely agree. I have seen some of this, although obviously a tiny amount compared to you. I have even tiptoed into 'it' myself now and then, then run out again, scalded by the heat and the depth of these dark waters. >So, I'm not sure how you can say in your post that Im "wrong" since >there _is_ eveidence that his work is purely fiction. Although I think >as long as people know that and keep a level head, the fact that it's >fiction doesn't take away from the power of the work at all. I don't think I did say you were wrong: I certainly didn't intend to - I said I thought the wife of the writer might be wrong to dismiss his work as fiction, because the point of my post was to suggest that there is no such thing as 'pure fiction', in my limited experience of reading voraciously and writing frequently for only 33 years. Gosh, but there is a lot more to read and to learn about out there. I've put Mrs Castaneda's book on the top of my 'to read' list. Interesting discussion: thank you. Friends? :-) All best wishes, Julia Hawkes-Moore. ###### Message-ID: <3534BC39.B76520AC@camtech.net.au> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:25:32 +1030 From: siri wala Reply-To: lurk@camtech.net.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03C-CAMTECH (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <353440D7.36F334E6@soundsculpture.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-ad-12-13.camtech.net.au Organization: Camtech (SA) Pty Ltd Customer Lines: 46 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsfeed2.uk.ibm.net!sackheads.org!ibm.net!europa.clark.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!Supernews60!supernews.com!ihug.co.nz!nsw1.news.telstra.net!sa.news.telstra.net!news.camtech.net.au!dialup-ad-12-13.camtech.net.au > Rainbowbird wrote: > > > > > We are so used in this scientific world to think linear, that we hardly > > can imagine that conciousness doesn't behave linear. > > We can achieve one before the other if we are not hindered by ideas and > > stuff. My point is: > > All definition are useful, but in the same way blocking if we want to > > meet the expectation and definition of others. > > So I resolved all information overload into one working idea for me: > > Shifting the assemblepoint. From here I can go anywhere use what I find > > useful.But I also can avoid being trapped by to many definitions that > > have come from others. > > Rainbowbird > . Just picking up on your point about linear thinking, and how you feel this is perhaps hindering our understanding of obe's and lucid dreams in this instance. What I question is your theory of achieving ( an understanding of?) one before the other by not letting (other peoples?) ideas/definitions dictate what it means to you. Is this not in itself a linear way of thinking? (one before the other) and are you not utilizing an others theory/set of definitions (Castaneda) to form your main theory here? My point here is not to pick at your post, I enjoyed reading it. My main point for writing this is to say that as humans (I use the term loosely) we are constantly classifying, reclassifying defining, redefining and categorizing our belief structures. I believe we cannot fully escape/transend these processes even if we think we have (that in itself is a subjective definition, as much as this rant is). What we can do IMO, is look at how and why we and other peoples/societies have reached our/their conclusions/definitions/categories/classifications. Look behind, above, below and see how things can relate to each other at different levels of meaning. Siri* (yeah ok this was highly subjective rantaminutefun) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!btnet-peer!btnet-feed1!btnet!peer.news.zetnet.net!news.clara.net!news.netkonect.net!katana.legend.co.uk!194.217.224.6 From: "Wren" Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: 16 Apr 98 09:11:35 GMT Organization: Xsite Ltd. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <01bd6917$ab6f3c00$06e0d9c2@wren.xsite.ltd.uk> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35352855.1D47@best.com> <35353822.15016220@news.dial.pipex.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: katana.legend.co.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Irony.... Isn't that like goldy or silvery, only made from iron? :-) Wren -- wren@xsite.ltd.uk http://www.xsite.ltd.uk/wren > Sorry that I have appeared even remotely aggressive about writers' > priorities! The saddest thing to me in daily life is that 'many > people' (amongst which I do not include the members of this ng!) don't > understand when writers use irony. This is the commonest writers' > fault of all. I've often been reprimanded for using irony in the past- ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!Supernews60!supernews.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!207.12.55.133.MISMATCH!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.concentric.net!global-news-master From: Rasha Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: 16 Apr 1998 11:58:16 EDT Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35352855.1D47@best.com> <35353822.15016220@news.dial.pipex.com> <01bd6917$ab6f3c00$06e0d9c2@wren.xsite.ltd.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: voyager.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <01bd6917$ab6f3c00$06e0d9c2@wren.xsite.ltd.uk> On 16 Apr 1998, Wren wrote: > Irony.... > Isn't that like goldy or silvery, only made from iron? > :-) > Wren If a person who commits gluttony is a glutton... and a person who commits a felony is a felon... then God is an iron. :) -- Rasha, Who Doesn't Remember Where She Heard That, But It's One Of Her Very Favirotest Quotes ###### Message-ID: <3535B808.FA92F894@camtech.net.au> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:19:47 +1030 From: siri wala Reply-To: lurk@camtech.net.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03C-CAMTECH (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35350E73.5D82@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup-ad-3-15.camtech.net.au Organization: Camtech (SA) Pty Ltd Customer Lines: 23 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!Supernews73!Supernews60!supernews.com!ihug.co.nz!nsw1.news.telstra.net!sa.news.telstra.net!news.camtech.net.au!dialup-ad-3-15.camtech.net.au HeWhoGetsSlapped wrote: > > mdoli wrote: > > >I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently > > >wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the > > >stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they > > >are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. > > Well, Nietzsche made up Zarathustra and yet their is boundless wisdom > contained within the tale. > I never read Castanenda's books so I have no idea as to wether they > contain anything of worth or not. I tend to be skeptical about > metaphysical books like that, especially after reading Celestine > Prophecy which wins as the worst piece of garbage I have read to date. > bunbury The Celestine Prophecy certainly made someone very rich. Siri* ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-raspail.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!sun4nl!newsfeed.adam.ixe.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail From: Rainbowbird Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:59:27 +0200 Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Lines: 39 Message-ID: <3536A96E.E12@xs4all.nl> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35350E73.5D82@pacbell.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: asd18-09.dial.xs4all.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-XS4ALL-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 03:01:53 CEST X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) HeWhoGetsSlapped wrote: > > > mdoli wrote: > > >I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently > > >wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the > > >stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they > > >are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. > > Well, Nietzsche made up Zarathustra and yet their is boundless wisdom > contained within the tale. > I never read Castanenda's books so I have no idea as to wether they > contain anything of worth or not. I tend to be skeptical about > metaphysical books like that, especially after reading Celestine > Prophecy which wins as the worst piece of garbage I have read to date. > bunbury I am not starting any discussion about what is true or not. I took the term assemble-point, shifting the assemble-point because I happen to like them and they make sense to me. But I can call it with easyness something else. Changing your brainwaves.....Accessing different states of conciousness by will.......trancestates.....dreamstates.....lucid ...obe.....I really don't care. That is just my point.Getting caught up in terms,semantics and that stuff.Sorry no time for that. My point is...it is all shamanic knowledge. And much older then some of the dreamingdevices-industry, psychology and many wants us to believe. The wheel is invented a long time ago.Modern fancy names won't change it, but lead to argumentation about what is what, and true and not true. People are arguing here about what is a real OBE. I don't know. I have to trust the person telling me so.I have no problem with that. As far as Castaneda is involved I don't believe his stories to be true in the ordinary way but for sure in a extraordinary way. Nobody expects anyone to have his dreams or visions or whatever to be real as real, real.So give the guy some credit. What did his wife contribute to mankind? The truth? Well Julia wrote about in lenght, I have nothing to add.:) Rainbowbird ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!sun4nl!newsfeed.adam.ixe.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail From: Rainbowbird Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 03:26:19 +0200 Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Lines: 56 Message-ID: <3536AFBB.7F42@xs4all.nl> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35352855.1D47@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: asd18-09.dial.xs4all.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-XS4ALL-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 03:28:46 CEST X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) mdoli@best.com wrote: > > Julia Hawkes-Moore wrote: > > > > So Castaneda very probably did 'just make it all up' - but that > > doesn't devalue his insights and observations. > > All best wishes, > > Julia Hawkes-Moore. > > No, no, I was not intending to devalue his insights and observations at > all. I suppose that without (you) having actually read her account of > life with him during the writing of his many books it's very hard for me > to explain without sounding as if my mouth is full of sour grapes ;} > > Her point was much like yours in some ways, that the books he wrote were > fiction, but that they were still amazing and wise on a spiritual level. > Im not arguing with that. My point was that many people seem to think > that his books were fact, true field notes, which they are not. She gave > examples (of dinner conversations for instance, or experiences of > friends) which later showed up as first person accounts in his books. > > My reason for posting was that (as a Native American) I get so tired of > anglo-urbanites reading a bit of Castaneda and deciding that they are > suddenly a "Shaman". As if a quick reading of the Bible could allow > someone to decide one sunny afternoon that they are now a priest! Or as > if wearing dreadlocks gives anyone a true understanding of what Rasta is > about. > > So, I'm not sure how you can say in your post that Im "wrong" since > there _is_ eveidence that his work is purely fiction. Although I think > as long as people know that and keep a level head, the fact that it's > fiction doesn't take away from the power of the work at all. Medicinepower is surely different from what is called shamanism right now. May be you could consider it as neoshamanism. New knowledge about conciousness combined with old knowlegde in order to use it effective. I talked to some elder last year here in Europe during a huge medicinewheel ceremony. He said: They are taking out all the highlights. But it's all blood sweat and tears. And so it is. So like buddism is not the same as in Tibet, Yoga is not the same as in India, Shamanism is not the same as in Siberia. In my experience people are using the term shamanism if they are referring to concious-changing techniques of different origin. Apart from that they believe that we are all related and one. They pray to spirit, mother earth and father sky. This is not only american indian spirituality but also the background of diverse european old religions. By the way in CC writings are a lot of foreign elements synthesized.IOM. That is why I love Don Juan so much. He is a teacher one can only "dream" off....;-) Rainbowbird ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail From: mdoli@best.com Newsgroups: alt.dreams.lucid,alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:27:46 -0800 Lines: 6 Message-ID: <353774ED.1B2@best.com> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35350E73.5D82@pacbell.net> <3536A96E.E12@xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: mdoli.vip.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: 892822784 2559 (none) 206.86.0.12 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Rainbowbird wrote: > What did his wife contribute to mankind? The truth? we all contribute something, besides, the truth is nothing to sneeze at eh? ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:15:07 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 22 Message-ID: <353ada68.4231288@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: b1-50.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:15:50 -0800, mdoli@best.com wrote: >I hate to burst any bubbles around here, but Castaneda's wife recently >wrote a book too. In it she explains that Carlos made up all of the >stuff in his many books. I've read his books and I loved them, they >are great stories, but that's all they are, stories. Isn't the "Celestine Prophesy" supposed to be "just" fiction ? Yet I know many readers who benefited from reading it. If the Castaneda books are fiction then I see no reason to assume that they are of no benefit to readers. After all, the books are probably based on someone's experiences. Even if they aren't Castaneda's. :-) Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/ ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news2.melbpc.org.au!not-for-mail From: johnf@melbpc.org.au (John Fitzsimons) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: LD "vs" OOBE Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:15:08 GMT Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3539d9d2.4081430@news.melbpc.org.au> References: <353222C5.D8C43579@cidcorp.com> <3532C2E2.EBCE2317@cidcorp.com> <3532B915.2172@best.com> <35340F99.7E6F@xs4all.nl> <3534DD36.6DED@best.com> <353501a1.1072850@news.dial.pipex.com> <35350E73.5D82@pacbell.net> <3535B808.FA92F894@camtech.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: b1-50.melbpc.org.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:19:47 +1030, siri wala wrote: < snip > >The Celestine Prophecy certainly made someone very rich. So, to tell whether a book is worthwhile we need to know whether someone got rich from it ? If they did then we shouldn't read that book. If they didn't then the book is worthwhile ? Yea, sure. Regards, John. **************************************************** ,-._|\ John Fitzsimons - Melbourne, Australia. / Oz \ johnf@melbpc.org.au, Fidonet 3:632/309 \_,--.x/ http://www.vicnet.net.au/~johnf/welcome.htm v http://www.alphalink.com.au/~johnf/