From: judilio@xs4all.nl (Judiliochromis) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:42:10 GMT Organization: Judiliochromis Corp. Sender: @gln01-02.dial.xs4all.nl Message-ID: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> Reply-To: judilio@xs4all.nl NNTP-Posting-Host: gln01-02.dial.xs4all.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-XS4ALL-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:43:27 CET X-XS4ALL-User: judilio@xs4all.nl on gln01-02.dial.xs4all.nl X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 Lines: 19 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!qual.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!nestorix2.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Is there anyone out here who has some knowledge about OBE experiences in a parapsychological matter? I've red books about parapsychology, like Conscious Universe, by Dean Radin, where the scientific evidence was discussed for psi in general. Is a OBE also a psi phenomenon? Are there any reports (or abstracts of such reports) about studies and experiments with OBE? Is an OBE phenomenon similar to the Remote Perception phenomena? Is a OBE an illusion?: some skeptics like Susan Blackmore are suggesting that an OBE is nothing more than a pure fantasy from the mind, because some elements in a OBE seem inaccurate after careful investiagtion (like roofpanels saw during an OBE, which were not similar as in the real world, or a wrong bedspread or pet, not similar, etc), or is OBE real?: some people can do accurate reports when they had an OBE during a Near-Death experience.....? Greetings, '`^~\_-=Judiliochromis=-_/~^`' (judilio@xs4all.nl) Visit my lair... http://www.xs4all.nl/~judilio ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:02:54 -0700 Organization: inQuo Internet (801) 530-7160 Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.179.26.195 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.0.56.122!news.eli.net!inquo!news Judiliochromis wrote: > Is there anyone out here who has some knowledge about OBE > experiences in a parapsychological matter? > > some skeptics like Susan Blackmore are > suggesting that an OBE is nothing more than a pure fantasy from the > mind, because some elements in a OBE seem inaccurate after careful > investiagtion (like roofpanels saw during an OBE, which were not > similar as in the real world, or a wrong bedspread or pet, not > similar, etc), or is OBE real?: some people can do accurate reports > when they had an OBE during a Near-Death experience.....? > Greetings, Just a quick opinion: When we experience OOB, or Astral Project, what we see can't always be translated accurately by our physical conciousness. I.E: If someone from the early 14th century were to take a glance into the future, and see our era, he/she might describe cars as "Steel beasts". He/She would probably explain it in much more detail than even that. My point: Just because sometimes we don't quite describe things exactly accurate, doesn't mean we weren't actually there. It can be difficult for our conciousness to correctly translate something from the Astral Realm to the Physical meaning. (Sometimes impossible) ###### From: "rbwalton" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:57:03 -0800 Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: inakka20.dcsi.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news.ncal.verio.com!not-for-mail Also, not only is it hard to translate what we may see, it is also possible we are not seeing this present now. We may be seeing a totally different plane that does not correspond in every way to this one. . . It may be just out of phase enough to seem similar. . . but not quite the same. My opinion only. . . -- To respond, delete #nospam# rbwalton@#nospam#outrageous.net Or, visit web page for some useful links. . . www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ Dave wrote in message <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net>... > > >Judiliochromis wrote: > >> Is there anyone out here who has some knowledge about OBE >> experiences in a parapsychological matter? >> >> some skeptics like Susan Blackmore are >> suggesting that an OBE is nothing more than a pure fantasy from the >> mind, because some elements in a OBE seem inaccurate after careful >> investiagtion (like roofpanels saw during an OBE, which were not >> similar as in the real world, or a wrong bedspread or pet, not >> similar, etc), or is OBE real?: some people can do accurate reports >> when they had an OBE during a Near-Death experience.....? >> Greetings, > >Just a quick opinion: > > When we experience OOB, or Astral Project, what we see can't always be >translated accurately by our physical conciousness. > >I.E: If someone from the early 14th century were to take a glance into >the future, and see our era, he/she might describe cars as "Steel >beasts". He/She would probably explain it in much more detail than even >that. > >My point: Just because sometimes we don't quite describe things exactly >accurate, doesn't mean we weren't actually there. It can be difficult for >our conciousness to correctly translate something from the Astral Realm to >the Physical meaning. (Sometimes impossible) > > > ###### From: Trish Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:52:30 -0500 Organization: gte.net Lines: 58 Message-ID: <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> Reply-To: capuchin@gte.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust30.tnt1.new-port-richey.fl.gt.uu.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Auth: 5500928715D04D8B4F460412 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.nodak.edu!netnews3.nwnet.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.gte.net!news.gte.net!not-for-mail rbwalton wrote: > > Also, not only is it hard to translate what we may see, it is also possible > we are not seeing this present now. We may be seeing a totally different > plane that does not correspond in every way to this one. . . It may be just > out of phase enough to seem similar. . . but not quite the same. My opinion > only. . . > > -- > To respond, delete #nospam# > rbwalton@#nospam#outrageous.net > Or, visit web page for some useful links. . . > www.angelfire.com/ca/onestepbeyond/ > > Dave wrote in message <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net>... > > > > > >Judiliochromis wrote: > > > >> Is there anyone out here who has some knowledge about OBE > >> experiences in a parapsychological matter? > >> > >> some skeptics like Susan Blackmore are > >> suggesting that an OBE is nothing more than a pure fantasy from the > >> mind, because some elements in a OBE seem inaccurate after careful > >> investiagtion (like roofpanels saw during an OBE, which were not > >> similar as in the real world, or a wrong bedspread or pet, not > >> similar, etc), or is OBE real?: some people can do accurate reports > >> when they had an OBE during a Near-Death experience.....? > >> Greetings, > > > >Just a quick opinion: > > > > When we experience OOB, or Astral Project, what we see can't always be > >translated accurately by our physical conciousness. > > > >I.E: If someone from the early 14th century were to take a glance into > >the future, and see our era, he/she might describe cars as "Steel > >beasts". He/She would probably explain it in much more detail than even > >that. > > > >My point: Just because sometimes we don't quite describe things exactly > >accurate, doesn't mean we weren't actually there. It can be difficult for > >our conciousness to correctly translate something from the Astral Realm to > >the Physical meaning. (Sometimes impossible) > > > > > > Not only that .. but it's very limiting to base the validity of an OBE on the mere physical environment surrounding a sleeping body. Too many people try to prove it to be something it may not be at all ... and if they don't get this satisfaction of proof, then they dismiss it. It's better to try to find out what it is, rather than tacking a definition on it and packaging it in a box. Trish ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: 24 Jan 1998 07:37:54 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 95 Message-ID: <6ac5oi$o6r@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-15.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 24 1:37:54 AM CST 1998 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!ix.netcom.com!news In <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> Trish writes: > >rbwalton wrote: >> >> Also, not only is it hard to translate what we may see, it is also >>possible we are not seeing this present now. We may be seeing a >>totally different plane that does not correspond in every way to this >>one. . . It may be just out of phase enough to seem similar. . . but >>not quite the same. My opinion only. . . And my opinion only... I agree. When OBE we are not in the physical plane. What we see is subject to a wide number of variables. Attitude, memory, creative influence, to mention just a few. Time, of course, is also a consideration. Remember, we are just beginners here. Most of us are only speculating - regardless of our supposed experience. There is an old saying: "Those who don't know, talk. Those who know, don't." ...or something like that. >> Dave wrote in message <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net>... >> > >> > >> >Judiliochromis wrote: >> > >> >> Is there anyone out here who has some knowledge about OBE >> >> experiences in a parapsychological matter? >> >> >> >> some skeptics like Susan Blackmore are >> >> suggesting that an OBE is nothing more than a pure fantasy from >>>>the mind, Maybe I misread SB. I'm not quite sure she is the complete skeptic that so many folks make her out to be. She is a researcher who had a drug induced OBE. She writes well and makes some good points, but I'm certainly not going to take her word as the final say on the matter. Even though I agree with her on many points. Personally, I don't believe in OBE. This may come as a shock to some who know me. I don't believe in it because of the terminology. 'Out-of-body' doesn't make sense to me. It is an inner journey - not an outer. The physical being (just like all the others) a state of consciousness. We travel up through levels of consciousness - not out of the body. The physical is somewhat organized and quite stable, but the inner is very fluid. We can see a representation of the physical from another level of consciousness, but with our poor understanding and all of our faculties being undisciplined, we rarely see it as it is. Thoughtforms leak through. Currents flow. Interestingly, this is where Christianity falls into place - for without the ability to see beyond our thoughtforms, we are lost. Christ and other saviors in history are the guides who "save" us from that total confusion. Let's also take a look at the physical. Put yourself in the position of a memeber of a jury. As a member of a jury, do you REALLY know the truth? Or are you just asked to make a judgement call on a wide variety of the representations of the truth? Same for the OBE - you have to go beyond the initial representations to find the truth. That's why the REALLY REALLY REALLY successfull practitioners of the inner journey shut their mouths after a while and just keep going. They learn that the first levels are full of illusion and they grow tired of other people questioning them for easy ways to sidestep the discipline it takes to see beyond the illusion. They continue on with their efforts for years - going deeper and deeper - far deeper than what we know as OBE. Then, as their experience multiplies, they begin to see beyond that illusion and limitation. Susan Blackmore and other researchers haven't met any of these people. >>>>or is OBE real?: some people can do accurate reports >> >> when they had an OBE during a Near-Death experience.....? Some, but not all. The experience is much clearer and great changes often take place in the NDErs life to facilitate a better perception of reality, but, still, interpretation of illusion most often remains as a major block. The Light experience is much more important than the OBE. IMHO there really is no such thing as OBE because once you make the shift, time and space don't function as they do in the physical. You are not in the physical anymore. Forget about the physical. Seek out sources of light and enter them to go farther into the experience. >It's better to try to find out what it is, rather than tacking a >definition on it and packaging it in a box. Right! Which is kinda what I was trying to say in the earlier part of this post. >Trish Hi, Monkey Lady :-) I've missed you... Been a little busy elsewhere. Bart ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:58:10 -0700 Organization: inQuo Internet (801) 530-7160 Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: <34CCB292.77D2AA11@ictnet.net> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.179.26.195 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp.flash.net!newsfeed.gte.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.0.56.122!news.eli.net!inquo!news Trish wrote: > Not only that .. but it's very limiting to base the validity of an OBE > on the mere physical environment surrounding a sleeping body. Too many > people try to prove it to be something it may not be at all ... and if > they don't get this satisfaction of proof, then they dismiss it. > > It's better to try to find out what it is, rather than tacking a > definition on it and packaging it in a box. > > Trish The key word here is "try". I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, there isn't always proof.. (At least proof that people want to accept.) Our problem is, we've become so sure that the "laws" we've created for the universe are so correct that they cannot be violated. I don't consider that intelligent. I consider that arrogant, and closed minded. I hope you don't think I am attacking you, or anyone else for that matter. I apologize if that is how it sounded. I'm just expressing my opinion. Thanks. Dave ###### From: William Mook Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:46:30 -0500 Organization: Surgical Innovations Lines: 52 Message-ID: <34CD1246.62D6@surgicalinnovations.com> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> <6ac5oi$o6r@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: bill@surgicalinnovations.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp7.asacomp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) To: Bart Scott Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news.asacomp.com!news Bart: Are there any ideas relating quantum reality to all of this? I have some small knowledge of physics. Basically, the reality we remember and the reality we experience now is a highly filtered version of a much larger reality. Sort of like a thin veneer on top of a vaster universe. There's a certain interpretation of quantum formulae called the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics. This was originally ascribed to Hugh Everett. To understand this imagine a chess board and chess pieces. Now, imagine all the ways all the chess pieces can be arranged on the board. Each "configuration" has a certain "configuration distance" from the others. (by counting the number of legal moves, etc.) You can create a "space" of all these configurations where each configuration is linked to others by legal moves. These pathways are histories of legal games... with various outcomes. Well... in quantum physics you can imagine all of space and all the particles in the universe filling that space. Imagine all the ways these particles could be configured in that space... These are all the realities there can be. Now, imagine allowable moves from one configuration to the other forming pathways from one moment to the next. Every configuration (here and now) is linked to every other by allowable moves (rules of physics). The current configuration can be described as the result of certain statistics of preceding events... which will evolve with certain probabilities to other events... But if all these configurations actually exist... these probabilities only describe our limited ability to observe the configurations... oobe and parapsychology - if it has reality in the physical realm - could be explained as "resonances" between the observer and the observed... configurations... Sorry to be so long winded for a newbie! Just wanted to hear people's reactions! Thanks. -Bill ###### From: "Evelyn" Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: 27 Jan 1998 07:52:31 GMT Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net Lines: 14 Message-ID: <01bd2af9$1c876320$764c1ed1@logmein.flash.net> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> <6ac5oi$o6r@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> <34CD1246.62D6@surgicalinnovations.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lash8-118.flash.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp.flash.net!excalibur.flash.net!not-for-mail William Mook wrote in article <34CD1246.62D6@surgicalinnovations.com>... > Bart: > > Are there any ideas relating quantum reality to all of > this? I am not even going to try to stick my toe into quantum physics theory, but I can tell you that I have heard a lot of what you said before. I too was surprised to see how easily and how many people have made the same connection! -Evelyn ###### From: Trish Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:21:43 -0500 Organization: gte.net Lines: 73 Message-ID: <6ambls$s16$2@gte2.gte.net> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> <6ac5oi$o6r@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: capuchin@gte.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust99.tnt2.new-port-richey.fl.gt.uu.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Auth: 55009D970F9B4D9D11160412 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!qual.net!iagnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.251.127.50!newsfeed.gte.net!news.gte.net!not-for-mail Bart Scott wrote: > >> >> some skeptics like Susan Blackmore are > >> >> suggesting that an OBE is nothing more than a pure fantasy from > >>>>the mind, > > Maybe I misread SB. I'm not quite sure she is the complete skeptic > that so many folks make her out to be. She is a researcher who had a > drug induced OBE. She writes well and makes some good points, but I'm > certainly not going to take her word as the final say on the matter. > Even though I agree with her on many points. Susan Blackmore isn't the skeptic many people proclaim her to be. She simply believes that there might be another answer that isn't quite as obvious. Kind of we've described in this posting. > > Personally, I don't believe in OBE. This may come as a shock to some > who know me. I don't believe in it because of the terminology. Bold statement. I admire you. I were there was a different term to use, as I'm not to fond of getting the wrinkled nose when I mention the term. > > 'Out-of-body' doesn't make sense to me. It is an inner journey - not > an outer. The physical being (just like all the others) a state of > consciousness. We travel up through levels of consciousness - not out > of the body. The physical is somewhat organized and quite stable, but > the inner is very fluid. We can see a representation of the physical > from another level of consciousness, but with our poor understanding > and all of our faculties being undisciplined, we rarely see it as it > is. Thoughtforms leak through. Currents flow. I agree with you for the most part, although I do believe that some type of external stimulation takes place. But then again, according to many spiritual and scientific theories, there really is no such distinction between internal and external .. only a perception of such. > > Interestingly, this is where Christianity falls into place - for > without the ability to see beyond our thoughtforms, we are lost. > Christ and other saviors in history are the guides who "save" us from > that total confusion. > > Let's also take a look at the physical. Put yourself in the position > of a memeber of a jury. As a member of a jury, do you REALLY know the > truth? Or are you just asked to make a judgement call on a wide > variety of the representations of the truth? > > Same for the OBE - you have to go beyond the initial representations to > find the truth. That's why the REALLY REALLY REALLY successfull > practitioners of the inner journey shut their mouths after a while and > just keep going. They learn that the first levels are full of illusion > and they grow tired of other people questioning them for easy ways to > sidestep the discipline it takes to see beyond the illusion. They > continue on with their efforts for years - going deeper and deeper - > far deeper than what we know as OBE. Then, as their experience > multiplies, they begin to see beyond that illusion and limitation. > Susan Blackmore and other researchers haven't met any of these people. It's true. And what these people have to say couldn't be put into words as a means of understanding. It's something that has to be "arrived at". > Hi, Monkey Lady :-) I've missed you... Been a little busy elsewhere. > > Bart I always look for your posts. You have something new to teach me each time Bartmeister. :) Trish ###### From: Trish Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:32:26 -0500 Organization: gte.net Lines: 63 Message-ID: <6amc9v$s16$3@gte2.gte.net> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> <6ac5oi$o6r@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> <34CD1246.62D6@surgicalinnovations.com> Reply-To: capuchin@gte.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust99.tnt2.new-port-richey.fl.gt.uu.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Auth: 55009D16DA9E4D1D91160413 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.gte.net!news.gte.net!not-for-mail William Mook wrote: > > Bart: > > Are there any ideas relating quantum reality to all of > this? I have some small knowledge of physics. Basically, > the reality we remember and the reality we experience now > is a highly filtered version of a much larger reality. > > Sort of like a thin veneer on top of a vaster universe. > > There's a certain interpretation of quantum formulae > called the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum > physics. This was originally ascribed to Hugh Everett. > > To understand this imagine a chess board and chess pieces. > Now, imagine all the ways all the chess pieces can be > arranged on the board. Each "configuration" has a > certain "configuration distance" from the others. > (by counting the number of legal moves, etc.) You can > create a "space" of all these configurations where each > configuration is linked to others by legal moves. These > pathways are histories of legal games... > with various outcomes. > > Well... in quantum physics you can imagine all of space > and all the particles in the universe filling that space. > Imagine all the ways these particles could be configured > in that space... These are all the realities there can > be. > > Now, imagine allowable moves from one configuration to > the other forming pathways from one moment to the next. > > Every configuration (here and now) is linked to every > other by allowable moves (rules of physics). The current > configuration can be described as the result of certain > statistics of preceding events... which will evolve with > certain probabilities to other events... > > But if all these configurations actually exist... these > probabilities only describe our limited ability to observe > the configurations... > > oobe and parapsychology - if it has reality in the physical > realm - could be explained as "resonances" between the > observer and the observed... configurations... > > Sorry to be so long winded for a newbie! Just wanted to > hear people's reactions! > > Thanks. > > -Bill Bill, good explanation. But let's say that OBEs don't have a reality in the physical realm (just for argument's sake) but there is good reason to believe that the experience is not conjured up by the brain. Where would quantum theory apply in this situation? Really interested in what you think .. Trish ###### From: Trish Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:42:43 -0500 Organization: gte.net Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6amct8$s16$4@gte2.gte.net> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> <34CCB292.77D2AA11@ictnet.net> Reply-To: capuchin@gte.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust99.tnt2.new-port-richey.fl.gt.uu.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Auth: D5809D9617504D1D11960414 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.gte.net!news.gte.net!not-for-mail Dave wrote: > > Trish wrote: > > > Not only that .. but it's very limiting to base the validity of an OBE > > on the mere physical environment surrounding a sleeping body. Too many > > people try to prove it to be something it may not be at all ... and if > > they don't get this satisfaction of proof, then they dismiss it. > > > > It's better to try to find out what it is, rather than tacking a > > definition on it and packaging it in a box. > > > > Trish > > The key word here is "try". I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, there > isn't always proof.. (At least proof that people want to accept.) > > Our problem is, we've become so sure that the "laws" we've created for the > universe are so correct that they cannot be violated. I don't consider that > intelligent. I consider that arrogant, and closed minded. I know where you're coming from. And what you say has merit. But acceptance has just as much danger in being close-minded as interrogation does. > I hope you don't think I am attacking you, or anyone else for that matter. I > apologize if that is how it sounded. I'm just expressing my opinion. Not at all Dave, that's what we're here for. Trish ###### From: bartma12@ix.netcom.com(Bart Scott) Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body Subject: Re: Out Of Body & Parapsychology... Date: 28 Jan 1998 06:04:39 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6amhpn$i1s@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <34c4815e.1120662@news.xs4all.nl> <34C76DAE.B7B07A63@ictnet.net> <6a8te1$8k8$1@news.ncal.verio.com> <6abrv8$eof$2@gte2.gte.net> <6ac5oi$o6r@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> <34CD1246.62D6@surgicalinnovations.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clv-oh40-06.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jan 28 12:04:39 AM CST 1998 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newsfeed.wli.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.154.56!ais.net!ix.netcom.com!news In <34CD1246.62D6@surgicalinnovations.com> William Mook writes: > >Bart: > > Are there any ideas relating quantum reality to all of > this? I have some small knowledge of physics. I have a limited understanding of 'quantum reality'. From what I do understand, it suggests that all of reality is in some way connected - regardless of apparent space. So far, I've been unable to actually relate that to consciousness - as consciousness itself is a point of view. But there are some aspects of quantum physics that seem to relate to my personal view :-) Of course I'm not the final say on any of this... ....But, my personal suggestion is that we are all (the multitude of life forms) just different points of view of God looking at Itself. Sounds corney, I know. Some points of view don't even consider God, but that is my view. By all known logic - this universe shouldn't even exist. By all reason - there should be nothing. Yet here we are. If evolution happened - if consciousness exists - then we are simply one point of view that God has of Itself. Bart