From: Amethyst Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Proof of an afterlife? Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:42:29 +0000 Organization: Oakleigh Sender: Ted Distribution: world Message-ID: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: casado.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: casado.demon.co.uk [194.222.150.122] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 15 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!btnet-peer!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!casado.demon.co.uk!Ted How can one prove the existence of an afterlife? I am fairly convinced that there is an afterlife because of books I have read, experiences I have had etc. etc, but this is some sort of personal belief, it's not something I can prove to anyone, not even to myself! My daughter has been asking me recently if there is an afterlife. She says there is no proof of it, and if there is no proof, how can you believe in it? moreover, how can you be convinced that there is one? She has a point there. Isn't it similar to believing in the Holy Trinity or all the other things they taught us in Religion class when we were little? If you have any answers to her questions I would appreciate your comments, because sometimes her disbelief puts doubts into my mind. Thanks. Amethyst ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.nospam (remove .nospam) Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: 04 Jan 1998 01:13:44 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 115 Message-ID: References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Amethyst wtites: >How can one prove the existence of an afterlife? I am fairly convinced >that there is an afterlife because of books I have read, experiences I >have had etc. etc, but this is some sort of personal belief, it's not >something I can prove to anyone, not even to myself! >My daughter has been asking me recently if there is an afterlife. She >says there is no proof of it, and if there is no proof, how can you >believe in it? A personal experience unfortunately only leaves state changes in your brain (memory). With present day science these changes can not be read out as proof of their existance. But non-provability does not mean non-existance. See the complex process via which courts try to establish what did really happen (and they fail sometimes). Note that courts also convict criminals on the base of witnesses accounts, not just on proofs. Just accept that some things are impossible to prove or disprove. And that you can only go by your (possible faulty) judgement of the credibility of those that claim them. If she regards you (one single witness) as not reliable. Go looking for more witnesses. The NDE (Near Death Experience) people would be one way to go, for them see: news: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/nde.html http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/end.html http://nde.simplenet.com/ also related (and willfully achievable) is OBE: news: alt.out-of-body http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/obe.html http://www.winternet.com/~rsp/obebook.html While NDE and OBE could still be regarded as (para-)psychological effects and other effects used for proof may be explained also by telepathy (if you believe in it), you for evidence of afterlife may want to look into ghosts. They often retain the personal traits of the person they once were, and as the body of that person is dead it is definitely not telepathy. The best I have here is a book, nothing webish (unfortunately): Ian Wilson, In Search of Ghosts, 1995, Headline, 0-7472-4707-2 His case histories are very good (and convincing) reading. I don't like his conclusion as to what forces them to become ghosts (no propper funeral/burial rite) and is needed to free them (do a mass for them, it actually fails in one of his cases), I prefer simply to assume that they have some thing-that-needs-to-be-done that makes them stay around to try and get it righted. Unfortunately you did not give a hint as to what your own experiences were. Else I could perhaps add some specific tips. > moreover, how can you be convinced that there is one? There exist simply too many independent records to simply brush it aside as superstitious nonsense or self delusion. Yes, that is little, but it is all I have. So that you can range my views a bit better: I was brought up as christian (of the god-as-man-with-gray-beard-on-cloud variety). I lost all religious belief after dropping out of shool (I had believed (as I had been told) that god would help me if I just believed in him and were a good person). After that I were up to a few years ago a strict Atheist and cynic (see below for definition of cynic). Since then I have started to believe in telepathy and soul surviving bodily death, but not in any supreme being or creator. > She has a point there. Sure > Isn't it similar to believing in the Holy Trinity or all the other things they taught us in Religion class when we were little? Not quite. You have your experiences and many others to go by. Trinity (whatever that is supposed to be, I have never seen a definition of what that word is supposed to mean) is a old story with so many generations since its origin, that it could just be an fairy tale (with an strong promotor, the church). > If you have any answers to her questions I would appreciate your comments, Here I have given them. If she has further questions (perhaps more specific ones) post them. I have been long looking for people interested in exactly this discussion (in fact that was the reason to subscribe to multiple newsgroups in this direction). > because sometimes her disbelief puts doubts into my mind. That is a good sign. It means that you are in no danger of becoming an dogmatic. The 2 worst enemies of truth are are the dogmatis on both sides, the I-believe-so-it-is new agers and the its-not-explained-so-its-bunk cynics. -- Neil.Franklin@ccw.ch.nospam (remove .nospam), http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: ###### From: shintaro@xs4all.nl (Yiri T. Kohl) Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:17:34 GMT Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Message-ID: <34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: asd06-07.dial.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 12:20:19 CET X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 90 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!nestorix2.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Hi, On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:42:29 +0000, Amethyst wrote: >How can one prove the existence of an afterlife? I am fairly convinced >that there is an afterlife because of books I have read, experiences I >have had etc. etc, but this is some sort of personal belief, it's not >something I can prove to anyone, not even to myself! >My daughter has been asking me recently if there is an afterlife. She >says there is no proof of it, and if there is no proof, how can you >believe in it? moreover, how can you be convinced that there is one? >She has a point there. Isn't it similar to believing in the Holy Trinity >or all the other things they taught us in Religion class when we were >little? If you have any answers to her questions I would appreciate your >comments, because sometimes her disbelief puts doubts into my mind. Although I cannot give you any answers, I can tell you a little about my personal experiences and ideas. I've had a near-death experience myself, and I can assure you that such an experience holds no answers whatsoever; of course it doesn't, for all it tells you is that you haven't died yet, and thus you can't tell what's beyond that barrier. First of all I think there are many different interpretations of what is to be considered 'life', 'self-awareness', 'soul' etc... etc... humans have a tendency to approach the world surrounding them from a mortal point of view (which is only natural, I guess); the world gives them a way of hanging on to something, because it's got it's limits. If time, for example, would drop out from under you, you'd have a hard time finding any meaning in any moment... this is the problem you have when you'd become immortal... compared to eternity, simple, 'everyday' things lose their meaning, because they cannot be placed on ANY timescale; there is just eternity. Secondly, there's the problem of religion versus science; a discussion that's been going on for quite some time now. Considering for a moment that God, or whoever it is you believe in, is as infinite as He is said to be, then dying is likely to mean becoming one with the infinite. And... inifinite would include infinite possible options, and when you look at it that way, life after death should be one of them. I, myself, am not so sure wether this life after death would then be virtual, or wether it's the life BEFORE death that is virtual. One thing I can recommend, however, is to read up on the fairy tales of Hans Christian Andersen... Not only did he accurately describe Hitler back in 1853, he's also got quite a lot to say about the end of the world, life after death, and religion in general. Especially soothing are the tales about the Christian man that gets to heaven's gate (he is asked both what he has believed in, and how he has lived, and then the two are compared only to come to the conclusion that his lifestyle has been quite opposite to the teachings of Christianity; still, since these teachings include forgiveness, he is allowed to enter heaven anyway), and the one about the difficult road of honour. You should definitely check them out if you have the time. Thirdly, I think that in this age of cybernetics, nanotechnology, genetic and viral engineering and so on, it's quite difficult to believe in anything. And I think that's exactly what religion is for; wether anything is true or not, the only thing that counts is what you believe in yourself. If your God is truly the almighty (and, most importantly, infinite), then I bet that under his rule the impossible can exist next to the possible. Having had one near-death experience myself (and being surrounded by people that have had to be reanimated more than once), and with the speed of light being both infinite AND finite, both particles AND waveforms, AND having had some confirmations from some Ph.D's... I'm quite certain that the speed of death = the speed of light... and I believe that at that speed, ANYTHING is possible. I hope to have given you something to hang on to again... As Bjork once said: "doubt kills, speed is the key". In an infinite universe, both the fact that there is no afterlife and the fact that there actually is one, can be quite true at the same time. It's just that many people find it difficult to envision true infinity, which leads them to thinking about these subjects from the point of view of a human. Paradox is at the heart of what we are... Things are as real as you want them to be. I know, sometimes this is quite difficult to imagine, since we're all trapped in this collective hallucination we call reality, but in the end, it's all one big feary tale, in which everyone can participate and which each individual can write for him/herself. The reason why Christianity teaches us forgiveness and tolerance (or at least, the original teachings did) is, so that everybody can have his/her own opinions, and so that people can believe in totally opposite things, without causing each other too much trouble; so that people who believe in an afterlife can life in peace in one world together with those who do not belief this to be true. Take care... Yours sincerely, Yiri T. Kohl ###### From: Duncan Farquhar Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 22:14:02 -0600 Lines: 40 Message-ID: <34B4528A.ADFC9227@dellsnet.com> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> <34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp146.baraboo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: "Yiri T. Kohl" Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news.edu.sollentuna.se!newsxfer.visi.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail > . > > > > I hope to have given you something to hang on to again... As Bjork > once said: "doubt kills, speed is the key". In an infinite universe, > both the fact that there is no afterlife and the fact that there > actually is one, can be quite true at the same time. It's just that > many people find it difficult to envision true infinity, which leads > them to thinking about these subjects from the point of view of a > human. Paradox is at the heart of what we are... Things are as real as > you want them to be. I know, sometimes this is quite difficult to > imagine, since we're all trapped in this collective hallucination we > call reality, but in the end, it's all one big feary tale, in which > everyone can participate and which each individual can write for > him/herself. The reason why Christianity teaches us forgiveness and > tolerance (or at least, the original teachings did) is, so that > everybody can have his/her own opinions, and so that people can > believe in totally opposite things, without causing each other too > much trouble; so that people who believe in an afterlife can life in > peace in one world together with those who do not belief this to be > true. Take care... > > Yours sincerely, > Yiri T. Kohl Thank-you Yiri For your ideas! As everything is an idea, digest this...You are Mind, purely Mind and only Mind. In your N.D.E. you are shown that the only aspect of you that dies (or is corrected) is your idea that limitation is possible.With the correction of that thought comes the simultaneous experience of joy without opposite and love beyond all concept. That experience is the Truth of who you are and one doesn't have to "die" to know themselves truly but simply allow themselves to be Totally mistaken about who it is they thought they were. In the instant of total relinquishment of all previously held concepts dawns the revelation of eternal REALITY! Nothing REAL can be threatened; nothing unreal exists. In love Basia. ###### From: pswift@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Swift) Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: 8 Jan 1998 17:50:59 -0000 Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland. Lines: 7 Sender: mathnews@bell.maths.tcd.ie Message-ID: <6933m3$d0v@bell.maths.tcd.ie> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> <34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl> <34B4528A.ADFC9227@dellsnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bell.maths.tcd.ie X-Trace: synge.maths.tcd.ie 884281861 24671 pswift 134.226.81.9 X-Complaints-To: usenet@maths.tcd.ie Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!Ireland.EU.net!maths.tcd.ie!not-for-mail Just a short point to add to the discussion. It's too easy to assume that belief is simply of the mind and has no effect in the real world. Belief is a positive FORCE. For example your belief in an after-life may have caused you to reconsider certain actions, taking into account the fact that your responsibility may extend for eternity, and not simply for your life-time. In other words, you don't have to prove to your daughter that this belief is true , simply that it is useful. If it is useful, then adopt it. In this case the belief is useful, since it encourages me to act in a more ethical manner. Related to this is an argument I once had with my siblings. They claimed thatif you buy into a system of beliefs, you have to buy into all of it, you can't pick and choose. I argued that you could simply pick the beliefs that 'fit' best in your personal mind-set, and adopt them. THus, I could accept some teachings of the Catholic church, and not others. Looking forward to hearing from you, Paul ###### From: shintaro@xs4all.nl (Yiri T. Kohl) Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 21:38:18 GMT Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Message-ID: <34b694a2.335796@news.xs4all.nl> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> <34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: asd17-02.dial.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 10:41:06 CET X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 46 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!nestorix2.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Hi, On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:17:29 +0000, Amethyst wrote: >In article <34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl>, "Yiri T. Kohl" >> Although I cannot give you any answers, I can tell you a little about >>my personal experiences and ideas. I've had a near-death experience >>myself, and I can assure you that such an experience holds no answers >>whatsoever; of course it doesn't, for all it tells you is that you >>haven't died yet, and thus you can't tell what's beyond that barrier. >Hi Yiri, I am surprised to hear you say that an NDE holds no answers >whatsoever. To me that would have been the ultimate proof. I agree, you >don't know what is beyond that barrier, but that part of you that >doesn't know, that consciousness, it's not in your body. You have an >awareness of things while you are not in your body, which proves that >you are not your body, and that consciousness has to go somewhere after >you die, wouldn't you agree? I definitely agree on that one. However, beyond that 'barrier', anything could happen; it could either be the infinite that lies beyond there (meaning that our 'spirit' is a small, seperated bit of infinity itself; thus dying would mean becoming one with the infinite again, meaning that you become everything that's ever been or ever shall be), or there could be another realm which in itself is seperated from infinity; a realm with less boundaries than our current one, but still with enough limitations to get used to the idea of truly 'being'. Consciousness in itself I find very doubtfull (for it is not called con-sciousness for nothing); perhaps consciousness will cease beyond the barrier, and only self-awareness remains. I wouldn't know, but when my time comes, I'll be dying to find out. Whatever happens beyond, I wouldn't call life however... energy can be turned into matter, and vice versa, and when, for example, your create an electron out of energy, a positron is automatically created at the same time; without going into to much detail, I think that all life has a certain symmetry to it; energy, however, is singular. If we turn into energy-beings beyond that barrier, one wouldn't be able to call that life, despite the fact that one might still be conscious or self-aware... I think it's literally another state of being. Yours sincerely, Yiri T. Kohl ###### From: "DR. DEATH" Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: 10 Jan 1998 02:33:51 GMT Organization: Internet Access Group Lines: 22 Message-ID: <01bd1d45$0d695e00$5920f5cd@donedead> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.245.32.89 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.iag.net!not-for-mail HOURI wrote in article ... > If you don't believe in a supreme being or creator, then how did we get > here and how could there be an afterlife? > > I'd appreciate your thoughts, thanks. > > Janet An afterlife can exist without the aid of a supreme being. Now don't get me wrong, personally I DO believe in a supreme being, but if something exists and energy doesn't die but rather only changes, than we can continue to further exist after this life without the aid of a supreme being. But we need the supreme being for guidance. {{'till death do we part}} ....................DR. DEATH > > > ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam) Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: 10 Jan 1998 23:20:06 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> <34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl> <34B4528A.ADFC9227@dellsnet.com> <6933m3$d0v@bell.maths.tcd.ie> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 pswift@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Swift) wrote: > For example your belief in an after-life may have caused you to > reconsider certain actions, taking into account the fact that your > responsibility may extend for eternity, and not simply for your > life-time. > In other words, you don't have t prove to your daughter that this > belief is true , simply that it is useful. If it is useful, then > adopt it. In this case the belief is useful, since it encourages > me to act in a more ethical manner. I think you have an piece of circular logic here: a) belief .. caused you .. it is usefull b) don't have to prove .. belief is true .. it is usefull If the daughter does not believe, then she would not regard it as usefull (at least not for that reason). She may regard ethical acts to be good for other reasons, but that would contradict your point of view that the mother only does so for afterlife reasons (the "caused" bit). This is actually the biggest problem that I see when people with paranormal or religious ideas try to talk to others without them: that many "obvious" things to them are not obvious to the others. > Looking forward to hearing from you, Paul Which you will be now. Assuming this crappy news server isn't sabotaging me again... P.S: did anyone recieve my message (fairly large answer to original question): Date: 07 Jan 1998 01:57:24 +0100 Message-ID: If not mail me so I can repost it. -- Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam), http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam) Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: 10 Jan 1998 23:46:24 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> <01bd1d45$0d695e00$5920f5cd@donedead> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 I didn't recievw the original post (news server craped )so I am answering both here. HOURI wrote in article ... > If you don't believe in a supreme being or creator, then how did we get > here and how could there be an afterlife? The biggest problem with the supreme-being-as-creator idea is that it "solves" the where-does-the-univese-come-from question at the price of replacing it with where-does-the-s-b-come-from. That is what logicians call an endless regress, and thats a no-no in philosophy. When we look at _all_ attempts at explaining the "original cause" of the universe we quickly crash into one fundamental problem: out entire mental constructs of "causes" are based on the observation (and most likely also brain wiring) that in the universe everything is the result of a chain of events leading to more events, ad infinitum. Unfortunately for us, the coming-into-existance of the universe is not a causal phenomen. After all such basic things as time, space, energy, matter (they are parts of the definition of "cause") only came into existance then, so were (per definition) not available before. So all our ideas about causality (and about understanding) break at that point in time. IMHO The best we can do is admit to ourselves that the beginning is an incomprehensible mysterium and stop suggesting solutions which all fail at an deeper analysis. BTW: this is an old discovery, the ancient greeks knew it already. From: "DR. DEATH" >An afterlife can exist without the aid of a supreme being. Now don't get me >wrong, personally I DO believe in a supreme being, but if something exists >and energy doesn't die but rather only changes Energy doesn't need to change. What changes in death is that the soul loses its body and therefore becomes a spirit (I define this word as body-less soul). >than we can continue to >further exist after this life without the aid of a supreme being. But we >need the supreme being for guidance. IMHO you are using a different definition of supreme being as the previous poster. Houri was refering to an hypothetical being that created the universe, you are refering to the "big light of love" that NDEers report seeing (I have never had an NDE, just interested in it). There exists no proof that these are the same thing. But it is unlikely, as the big light is part of the universe (and therefore made of universe stuff), that makes it difficult for it to be the creator (pre universe, therefore non universe stuff). -- Neil.Franklin.nospam@ccw.ch (remove .nospam), http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: "Robert Daulby" Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: 14 Jan 1998 02:07:45 GMT Organization: N/A Lines: 9 Message-ID: <01bd2090$7bf560a0$f52f63c3@r.daulby> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-99-47-245.btinternet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!atl-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!smartdna!europa.clark.net!204.59.152.222!news-peer.gip.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!btnet-peer!btnet!neptunium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail .... Because you are The Creator and you got yourself here and you will keep doing that until you have experienced enough of this earthly life in as many guises as it takes to move on up to a place where you wont need to come back any longer. The thing with Christianity ( and I was one myself) is that, even though you may have dropped the religion - the stigma and habits attached to it take so much longer to get rid of. Believe in you. It is you who are the center of the universe... and you created it a long time ago. ###### From: "Robert Daulby" Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: 14 Jan 1998 02:30:07 GMT Organization: N/A Lines: 49 Message-ID: <01bd2093$9b8e0860$f52f63c3@r.daulby> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk><34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: host5-99-47-245.btinternet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!news-xfer.siscom.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!qual.net!iagnet.net!btnet-peer!btnet!neptunium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Defining, for yourself, if there is a life after death is as personal to you as your body. This takes time to find. (Belief, incidentally, is based on a 'hope that something is there' situation. Knowing is what that word means). Now, I KNOW that there really is life after death and that, if we knew what we were going to and what was waiting for us, we would, like lemmings, throw ourselves into the sea today and not bother with this place any longer. It is that beautiful. I speak from over 20 years of study and practice as a ghost buster here in the UK. I know what is there. I have experienced those on the other side from bottom to top and it is a thrilling experience. Knowledge - from practice - is a wonderful thing you know? But, that is all very well for me to say for, you don't know me and so, it is difficult to just take my word for it. I understand this and accept it very easily. I was once like you, doubting just about everything - until I looked for myself. Proof is subjective. Proof is a personal thing. When life after death was proven to me, it was through a surrogate father of mine whom I had not known that had died in the first place for, we had parted company for years before. I know Bill and he knows me. From that point, I was given information that only he and I knew - and others with me did not know either. That was proof for me - but it's not for you. Again, you do not know Bill. It was a beginning and, from this beginning came tremendous adventures - and some that would curl hair - it curled mine I can tell you. So, my message is, keep looking. When the time is right you will find it for it is out there - in huge amounts - and it always has been, even before Christianity ever existed. It has always been there whether we believe in it or not. Our beliefs do not effect THAT reality for all of us when we leave here. Find it. Don't be afraid. We are only afraid of what we don't know. When you do, fear will be gone forever and you will find, as I did, something you never thought possible. I could say so much more but, I don't want to bore others in this group with my meanderings but, feel free to e-mail me anytime and I will answer any questions that you may have. Don't feel silly please. I wont bite. One last thing, in your place and in discussion with your daughter about this very important subject, I would answer by saying that there is a life after death - even if I myself did not believe it. Why? Because, to a lot of people, even the hope of a life after death - without positive proof - brings so much strength into a life that may need it. If you are wrong - what would it matter anyway since neither of you would remember? - that is, IF you were right? Kids need to feel the security of something there that will nearly replace 'mum' if something drastic ever happened to you (touch wood that it doesn't). And, finally, to begin your search, I advocate reading a book called 'The Airmen Who Wouldn't Die' by R.J. Fuller ( I apologize to the publishers because I have forgotten who they are. I am sorry.) If you need any further information then - e-mail daulbyenterprises@btinternet.com - and, no, I am selling nothing to you ok? Thank you for your time. ###### From: Amethyst Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:44:15 +0000 Organization: Oakleigh Sender: Ted Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> <34b4042f.4772016@news.xs4all.nl> <01bd2093$9b8e0860$f52f63c3@r.daulby> NNTP-Posting-Host: casado.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: casado.demon.co.uk [194.222.150.122] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 70 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.he.net!newsfeed.gte.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!casado.demon.co.uk!Ted In article <01bd2093$9b8e0860$f52f63c3@r.daulby>, Robert Daulby writes Hi Robert, Thanks for your post. It has given me a lot to consider. It must be wonderful to KNOW as you do. One question crosses my mind, once you KNOW, do you stop searching? Many times I nearly knew (I have had many experiences), but then that little wicked voice in my mind says: perhaps you should seek better proof, and there I go again, searching again, looking again for proof. Oh well, perhaps it's just me, and being sorrounded by sceptics doesn't help (my faith in the afterlife isn't big enough I am afraid! ) I will e-mail you soon, but right now this is all I can do, as it's getting really late. Regards Amethyst >Defining, for yourself, if there is a life after death is as personal >to you as your body. This takes time to find. (Belief, incidentally, is >based on a 'hope that something is there' situation. Knowing is what >that word means). Now, I KNOW that there really is life after death and >that, if we knew what we were going to and what was waiting for us, we >would, like lemmings, throw ourselves into the sea today and not bother >with this place any longer. It is that beautiful. I speak from over 20 >years of study and practice as a ghost buster here in the UK. I know >what is there. I have experienced those on the other side from bottom >to top and it is a thrilling experience. Knowledge - from practice - is >a wonderful thing you know? But, that is all very well for me to say >for, you don't know me and so, it is difficult to just take my word for >it. I understand this and accept it very easily. I was once like you, >doubting just about everything - until I looked for myself. Proof is >subjective. Proof is a personal thing. When life after death was proven >to me, it was through a surrogate father of mine whom I had not known >that had died in the first place for, we had parted company for years >before. I know Bill and he knows me. From that point, I was given >information that only he and I knew - and others with me did not know >either. That was proof for me - but it's not for you. Again, you do not >know Bill. It was a beginning and, from this beginning came tremendous >adventures - and some that would curl hair - it curled mine I can tell >you. So, my message is, keep looking. > >When the time is right you will find it for it is out there - in huge >amounts - and it always has been, even before Christianity ever >existed. It has always been there whether we believe in it or not. Our >beliefs do not effect THAT reality for all of us when we leave here. >Find it. Don't be afraid. We are only afraid of what we don't know. >When you do, fear will be gone forever and you will find, as I did, >something you never thought possible. I could say so much more but, I >don't want to bore others in this group with my meanderings but, feel >free to e-mail me anytime and I will answer any questions that you may >have. Don't feel silly please. I wont bite. One last thing, in your >place and in discussion with your daughter about this very important >subject, I would answer by saying that there is a life after death - >even if I myself did not believe it. Why? Because, to a lot of people, >even the hope of a life after death - without positive proof - brings >so much strength into a life that may need it. If you are wrong - what >would it matter anyway since neither of you would remember? - that is, >IF you were right? Kids need to feel the security of something there >that will nearly replace 'mum' if something drastic ever happened to >you (touch wood that it doesn't). And, finally, to begin your search, I >advocate reading a book called 'The Airmen Who Wouldn't Die' by R.J. >Fuller ( I apologize to the publishers because I have forgotten who >they are. I am sorry.) If you need any further information then - >e-mail daulbyenterprises@btinternet.com - and, no, I am selling nothing >to you ok? Thank you for your time. > ###### From: Dr._Strange@alt.consciousness.near-death-exp (Dr. Strange) Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:08:08 GMT Organization: . Lines: 11 Message-ID: <69k94o$dtr@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: Dr._Strange@alt.consciousness.near-death-exp NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.67.32.113 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsadm On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:05:35 -0500, HOURI wrote: >I have just discovered this NG and am fascinated. ... > There is also another group you might be interested in: alt.consciousness.near-death-exp It seems to be more active than this one from time to time. Drop by some time. ###### From: Amethyst Newsgroups: alt.life.afterlife Subject: Re: Proof of an afterlife? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:39:24 +0000 Organization: Oakleigh Sender: Ted Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <8VpwbBAVUTr0EwHh@casado.demon.co.uk> <69k94o$dtr@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: casado.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: casado.demon.co.uk [194.222.150.122] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 20 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!nntp.flash.net!newsfeed.gte.net!europa.clark.net!194.159.255.21!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!casado.demon.co.uk!Ted In article <69k94o$dtr@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Dr. Strange" writes >On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:05:35 -0500, HOURI wrote: > >>I have just discovered this NG and am fascinated. ... >> > >There is also another group you might be interested in: > > alt.consciousness.near-death-exp > >It seems to be more active than this one from time to time. Drop by some >time. Sometimes it's TOO active , with Alan's ramblins and sending people to recovery, and all the people that reply to him. I lurk there everyday, I must admit, out of curiosity, although I never post, sometimes it's more like reading alt.humor. :-)