From: Particle Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer,alt.html,alt.games.quake Subject: Information Vanishing? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:44:29 -0500 Organization: WebSpan Inc., New Jersey Lines: 45 Message-ID: <34BDDA7D.6887@geocities.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: usr7-00.bay.ny.webspan.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@mail.webspan.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 1998 04:43:44 EST X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.154.70.8!news.webspan.net!usenet I've just seen a PBS show on how digital data is getting old, and how it basically disapears in just several years. (unlike printed media, which still remains from centuries ago) It made my stomach turn, since I realized that my programs, webpages, etc... everything, I've created via a computer didn't last for more than 5 years. I mean, should people be going back to planting a tree to "leave their mark"... (instead of publishing an online doc or program?) I mean, how can we make sure that what we produce today, remains current for years to come, (and format, or systems, or info does not become outdated and deleted...) I mean, the way things are moving, people won't even look at the quake 2 source code in as little as 10-20 years, and will thoughtlessly delete it from their system. (just because it will be useless) That kind of of leaves a weird feeling in my stomach, because programmers, and mostly computer publishers, consider themselves "artits"... but what's the point if their "art" will be useless and deleted in several years to come. (and not admired for it's quiality centuries later...) (think of all the graphics artits... they create an image... several years later, everybody gets tired of it, and deletes it, and eventually, it's totally gone...) Just thought I'd share this unsettling feeling with everybody... For how long do you think those x86 compatible computers will last? and for how long will their replacements last?... 10-20-30 years? and then what? A lot of the programs are not ported from system to system... (how many mainframe programs you see running on your PC?) so, basically, the program or data vanishes ...... -- Particle bsptree@geocities.com http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7650 Home of the Java Data Structures Tutorial! (& "Dog 3D"; a BSP Tree Test Applet) ###### From: rbarbaga@cs.uml.edu (Ralph Barbagallo) Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer,alt.html,alt.games.quake Subject: Re: Information Vanishing? Date: 15 Jan 1998 04:51:41 -0500 Organization: UMass Lowell Computer Science Lines: 22 Message-ID: <69km7d$5su$1@jupiter.cs.uml.edu> References: <34BDDA7D.6887@geocities.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jupiter.cs.uml.edu Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.he.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!ulowell.uml.edu!not-for-mail I saw that special last night too. Emulators are the savior of old games. A lot of classic game collectors such as myself have been noticing that a lot of cartridges are starting to fail. Bit-rot, as they say--I guess the components are wearing out in the ROM carts and single bit errors are cropping up every day. So, thanks to emulation and ROM dumps, you're able to store an entire generation's worth of games on your hard drive and run them on any system you want. From The Amiga to the PC to BeOS...you're able to run an emulation of most any old arcade hardware and use the copied ROMs. Granted, this may be a 'grey area' of legality, but it's saving games that companies are neglecting. If this wasn't done, a lot of classic games would have just vanished much like some of the vast data libraries in that special. But, as data formats change and evolve, and technology marches on, we're going to have to make sure we preserve theprevious generations games in the same way. -- *Ralph Barbagallo http://www.cs.uml.edu/~rbarbaga *rbarbaga@cs.uml.edu* "I have known many game designers; they encompass a broad range of personalities. Yet all these disparate people share one common trait; they all sport towering egos."--Chris Crawford, 1987. ###### From: john@curved-logic.com (John Harries) Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer,alt.html,alt.games.quake Subject: Re: Information Vanishing? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:34:56 GMT Organization: Curved Logic Limited Lines: 22 Message-ID: <34bdf35a.181703229@snews2.zippo.com> References: <34BDDA7D.6887@geocities.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-726.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.he.net!Supernews60!supernews.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!zdc!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!snews3 On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:44:29 -0500, Particle wrote: >That kind of of leaves a weird feeling in my stomach, because >programmers, and mostly computer publishers, consider themselves >"artits"... but what's the point if their "art" will be >useless and deleted in several years to come. (and not admired >for it's quiality centuries later...) Hmmm, kind of like those artists that piss in the snow to make living sculptures that will vanish when the sun gets higher up in the sky. That's probably about right for game programming. Johnny X is very useful if john@curved-logic.com your name is Nixie Knox, http://www.curved-logic.com/~kevin/jest/jest.html it also comes in handy spelling axe and extra fox ###### From: "Russ Williams" Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer,alt.html,alt.games.quake Subject: Re: Information Vanishing? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:57:39 -0000 Organization: UUNet UK server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet UK) Lines: 103 Message-ID: <69l1cj$jk1$2@flex.news.pipex.net> References: <34BDDA7D.6887@geocities.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ntbackup2.krisalis.co.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-3.sprintlink.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsxfer.visi.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!bore.news.pipex.net!pipex!not-for-mail Particle wrote in message <34BDDA7D.6887@geocities.com>... >I've just seen a PBS show on how digital data is getting >old, and how it basically disapears in just several years. >(unlike printed media, which still remains from centuries ago) Not any more. Bleaching compounds in the paper make it start going brown within a few years (think: old printouts). >It made my stomach turn, since I realized that my programs, >webpages, etc... everything, I've created via a computer >didn't last for more than 5 years. I haven't seen this, but why would that be the case? Media decays but the contents can be simply transferred and translated as needed. If it's the social factors 'this is old, delete...', then we must simply take more care in preserving old data. >I mean, should people be going back to planting a tree to >"leave their mark"... (instead of publishing an online doc or >program?) > >I mean, how can we make sure that what we produce today, >remains current for years to come, (and format, or systems, >or info does not become outdated and deleted...) You can't. The way around it is to transfer and translate/emulate everything. Before replacing an old storage system, transfer the data to something newer (eg: 5.25" floppy => 3.5" floppy => CD-R). Emulators and conversion programs can ensure everything is still usable. >I mean, the way things are moving, people won't even look at >the quake 2 source code in as little as 10-20 years, and will >thoughtlessly delete it from their system. (just because >it will be useless) Some people will keep it as a relic, though. It won't be in everyday use but, then again, what is? You don't often see 20 year old cars on the roads (except VW Bugs). >That kind of of leaves a weird feeling in my stomach, because >programmers, and mostly computer publishers, consider >themselves "artits"... but what's the point if their "art" will be (That's becoming a standard typo. It should go in the FAQ, maybe?) >useless and deleted in several years to come. (and not admired >for it's quiality centuries later...) Computing is growing far faster than conventional artforms - what's good today is out of date tomorrow. There's not really anything that can be done about it. IMHO, as games are now starting to reach photorealism, they won't be outdated as fast (8 or 16-colour games look pitiful now, but Myst will still look pretty good in 10 years). >(think of all the graphics artits... they create an image... >several years later, everybody gets tired of it, and deletes it, >and eventually, it's totally gone...) > >Just thought I'd share this unsettling feeling with everybody... It is a bit unsettling but, IMHO, most of what we do is akin to 'performance art'. It only makes sense in context. Many of the things we create are only intended to be temporary - not to be viewed from 200 years in the future. After all, most 8-bit games aren't exactly great - but we enjoyed them at the time. >For how long do you think those x86 compatible computers will >last? Decades. Maybe not hardware compatibility, but there is so much legacy data on PCs that they can't be just wiped out. >and for how long will their replacements last?... 10-20-30 years? >and then what? Stacking emulators? Using an emulator of an old system to run an emulator of an even older one. >A lot of the programs are not ported from system >to system... (how many mainframe programs you see running >on your PC?) so, basically, the program or data vanishes ...... Perhaps, perhaps not. It's amazing some of the things you can find on dusty old backups. Anything worth keeping will generally have at least 1 copy somewhere. If you want to keep something for posterity, keep some backups safe. Use ECC and redundancy to compensate for bit rot. One particularly good suggestion I've heard is to store everything as machine-readable hex dumps on paper. Don't use [0-9a-f], use a 4x4 grid with black squares representing set bits. --- Russ ###### Path: ccw.ch!usenet From: Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer,alt.html,alt.games.quake Subject: Re: Information Vanishing? Date: 17 Jan 1998 04:45:34 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <34BDDA7D.6887@geocities.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Note: I am writing this from an alt.html view point. Particle got scared by: >I've just seen a PBS show on how digital data is getting >old, and how it basically disapears in just several years. >(unlike printed media, which still remains from centuries ago) Well actually _code_ may be non-executable in 5..10 years (but MS-DOS 1.0 is now 15, and still bootable, why???). OTOH _data_ can live forever, if: a) it was represented in some standard format or converted to such (ASCII, HTML, WAD, not MS DOC files that are different after 1 year). b) it is regularily copied to newer media and newer systems c) not deleted as "worthless" to save a bit of disk space d) regularily backed up (don't forget off site storage) I still can read _every_ important file I have made since getting my first _real_ PC (with a hard disk) im 1988. Actually quite a lot of that stuff made the contents of my website. The only stuff I can not read are my old Commodore C64 files (I still actually have the disks, forgot to copy them, now I can't find a drive) and my old shool projects from before that (deleted to reuse the disks for the C64. >It made my stomach turn, since I realized that my programs, >webpages, etc... everything, I've created via a computer >didn't last for more than 5 years. Don't wory, ASCII, HTML and GIF will never disappear. They are _documented_ formats, with few variants (you don't use proprietary extensions, do you?). The amount of valuable data will ensure readers be written for them. Expect them to live. >Just thought I'd share this unsettling feeling with everybody... Don't let some clueless TV journalist scare you. -- Neil.Franklin.remove.this@ccw.ch, http://www.ccw.ch/Neil.Franklin/ for Geek Code, Papernet, Voicenet, PGP public key see http: If I go missing, its once again my newsfeed that has craped ###### From: FazeX <"FazeX"@Bellsouth.net/SPAM PROTECTION/> Reply-To: FazeX@bellsouth.net Organization: Silicon Worlds Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.games.programmer,alt.html,alt.games.quake Subject: Re: Information Vanishing? References: <34BDDA7D.6887@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:46:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: host-32-96-52-6.mia.bellsouth.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:46:53 EST Path: ccw.ch!aetna.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.onenet.net!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!atl.bellsouth.net!news3.mia.bellsouth.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Particle wrote: > > I've just seen a PBS show on how digital data is getting > old, and how it basically disapears in just several years. > (unlike printed media, which still remains from centuries ago) > > It made my stomach turn, since I realized that my programs, > webpages, etc... everything, I've created via a computer > didn't last for more than 5 years. > > I mean, should people be going back to planting a tree to > "leave their mark"... (instead of publishing an online doc or > program?) > > I mean, how can we make sure that what we produce today, remains > current for years to come, (and format, or systems, or info does > not become outdated and deleted...) > > I mean, the way things are moving, people won't even look at > the quake 2 source code in as little as 10-20 years, and will > thoughtlessly delete it from their system. (just because > it will be useless) > > That kind of of leaves a weird feeling in my stomach, because > programmers, and mostly computer publishers, consider themselves > "artits"... but what's the point if their "art" will be > useless and deleted in several years to come. (and not admired > for it's quiality centuries later...) > > (think of all the graphics artits... they create an image... > several years later, everybody gets tired of it, and deletes it, > and eventually, it's totally gone...) > > Just thought I'd share this unsettling feeling with everybody... > > For how long do you think those x86 compatible computers will last? > and for how long will their replacements last?... 10-20-30 years? > and then what? A lot of the programs are not ported from system > to system... (how many mainframe programs you see running > on your PC?) so, basically, the program or data vanishes ...... > > -- > Particle > bsptree@geocities.com > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/7650 > Home of the Java Data Structures Tutorial! > (& "Dog 3D"; a BSP Tree Test Applet) This type of stuff pisses me off too...When I read this type of stuff it makes me wonder where the years gone bye! Its very depressing when you think about it...I mean I collect the old NES emulated games and play them more then I do the games out today... I used to play these all the time..So where has the time gone... wonder if a computer could emulate me so I wouldnt die like these classics