Reply-To: "Ruben" <dontspam_me_rproost@planet.nl>
From: "Ruben" <rproost@zonnet.nl>
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Subject: Attuning psychotic people
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Would it be possible to attune psychotic people to reiki? Could it cure
them?

######

From: stuv@cix.co.uk (Stuart Vernon)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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(Ruben) wrote:

> Would it be possible to attune psychotic people to reiki?
> Could it cure them?

"cure" is not quite the right word, but let me tell you a story ..

At my First Degree, one of the four of us was a USAF guy based
in the UK married to an English girl who at the time had done 
Second Degree ...

He was very skeptical (as was I), but you could sense that there
was an aggressiveness about it ..

During breaks, he wouldn't socialise with others in the group,
preferring to sit in the corner with a chess set he'd brought and
play games against himself ...

Found out later that he had a sky-high IQ rating (almost as much
as mine <grin>) and had regular screaming ab-dabs such that the
medics on the base often had to sedate him .. 

The couple went to the US when the base closed and lived with his
parents who were/are staunch Baptists ... eventually it got to him
and he denounced Reiki and said that he didn't have it any longer ..

"This is Satan's Work" were the terms used by his mother ... 

The couple separated ... surprise, surprise ...

So .. is it the thin line between genius and madness?  Did the Attunement
push him over?  Who knows?  Personally, I wouldn't do it if I was aware
of, or suspected a similar situation ...

My RM admits that she wasn't particularly happy about the way things
unfolded during that weekend and with hindsight, says she should have 
dumped him ..

Stuart

######

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:47:27 +0100
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HI Stuart, UI am not surprised  of your IQ :-)
  I always sensed you are out of the box .. slightly I mean :-)


Stuart Vernon wrote:


> 
> The couple went to the US when the base closed and lived with his
> parents who were/are staunch Baptists ... eventually it got to him
> and he denounced Reiki and said that he didn't have it any longer ..

  you can dim the flow  but you cannot forget exactly as you do not

  really attunements to start using it...
  when you have got awareness  is just a little   more help

> "This is Satan's Work" were the terms used by his mother ... 
  and bla bla bla .. ok

> The couple separated ... surprise, surprise ...

> So .. is it the thin line between genius and madness?  Did the Attunement
> push him over?  Who knows?  Personally, I wouldn't do it if I was aware
> of, or suspected a similar situation ...

  no one in fact people that think like alien  have crossed the barriere 
:-)of species

> My RM admits that she wasn't particularly happy about the way things
> unfolded during that weekend and with hindsight, says she should have 
> dumped him ..
  I understand how she felt
  but it was not like giving him into his  hands a loaded gun..
  It is true that probably the inner work put him in conflict with his 
education, family and cultural background.. and his IQ could not help 
him to find the proper solution high IQ is  BS  sometimes
  His wife was Reiki as well so  he infringed   already the Law marrying 
her  and he was in conflict but accepete her as in love and rejected you 
all as *satanists*  this is why way not socializing
  of course back home it was  evident that he was falling back  in his 
familar medium and trying to rescue his wife from *sin* and she left !
  It is not  Reiki fault nor Reiki provoked whatever as energy  people 
acted badly using Reiki as an ecxcuse of theri acting

  A Reiki is mainly Intent and Awareness so a person that is not 
mentally sound will not realize properly the use of it .. or maybe will 
,I guess all possibilities  might be considered

is like tossing dices .. in this case one should intuit what to do and 
follow ..
  Theo

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"Ruben" <rproost@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net...
> Would it be possible to attune psychotic people to reiki? Could it cure
> them?
>

In many cases psychotics are people
whose conscious gets flooded by the
un/sub-conscious which then causes
problems as they cannot handle the
overload.
Reiki opens channels to the sub-conscious
thus making psychotics more susceptible
to breakdowns. They should not be attuned,
nor should not meditate, or get involved in
practices which release sub-conscious
content, except under strict and continual
supervision.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

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"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "Ruben" <rproost@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net...
> > Would it be possible to attune psychotic people to reiki? Could it cure
> > them?
> >
>
> In many cases psychotics are people
> whose conscious gets flooded by the
> un/sub-conscious which then causes
> problems as they cannot handle the
> overload.
> Reiki opens channels to the sub-conscious
> thus making psychotics more susceptible
> to breakdowns. They should not be attuned,
> nor should not meditate, or get involved in
> practices which release sub-conscious
> content, except under strict and continual
> supervision.
>

   reiki is a healing art and quite spiritual if i understand it correctly.
the healing energy (loving intent) knows what to do with any sort of illness
including mental. There are no boundries and no instances where it would or
could make things worse. You either believe in the power and use it or don't
believe in it and spare someone the benifit of it. if reiki opens channels
to the sub-conscious, then it would open the channels needed to be opened.
Your analagy is like a farmer planting a seed in the ground but not covering
it up with dirt because the seed in the dark would not know which way was up
or down. Things that have a purpose know their purpose. Take your tag line
for instance. . . you either trust in it's inherent wisdom or not but not
just under certain circumstances.

Love is . . . . .. trusting in things the intellect can't grasp.
> --
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>

######

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"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "Ruben" <rproost@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> news:3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net...
> > Would it be possible to attune psychotic people to reiki? Could it cure
> > them?
> >
>
> In many cases psychotics are people
> whose conscious gets flooded by the
> un/sub-conscious which then causes
> problems as they cannot handle the
> overload.
> Reiki opens channels to the sub-conscious
> thus making psychotics more susceptible
> to breakdowns. They should not be attuned,
> nor should not meditate, or get involved in
> practices which release sub-conscious
> content, except under strict and continual
> supervision.
>
> --
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Speechless, Peter?  <g>

Garry

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 07:16:53 -0500, "Peterz" <peterz@magma.ca> wrote:

>
>"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
>news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>>
>> "Ruben" <rproost@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
>> news:3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net...
>> > Would it be possible to attune psychotic people to reiki? Could it cure
>> > them?
>> >
>>
>> In many cases psychotics are people
>> whose conscious gets flooded by the
>> un/sub-conscious which then causes
>> problems as they cannot handle the
>> overload.
>> Reiki opens channels to the sub-conscious
>> thus making psychotics more susceptible
>> to breakdowns. They should not be attuned,
>> nor should not meditate, or get involved in
>> practices which release sub-conscious
>> content, except under strict and continual
>> supervision.
>>
>> --
>> Namu Amida Butsu
>> Peter Reber
>> "Life knows its needs"
>>
>>
>>
>
>

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com>
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"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
>
> "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> >
> > "Ruben" <rproost@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
> > news:3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net...
> > > Would it be possible to attune psychotic people to reiki? Could it
cure
> > > them?
> > >
> >
> > In many cases psychotics are people
> > whose conscious gets flooded by the
> > un/sub-conscious which then causes
> > problems as they cannot handle the
> > overload.
> > Reiki opens channels to the sub-conscious
> > thus making psychotics more susceptible
> > to breakdowns. They should not be attuned,
> > nor should not meditate, or get involved in
> > practices which release sub-conscious
> > content, except under strict and continual
> > supervision.
> >
>
>    reiki is a healing art and quite spiritual if i understand it
correctly.
> the healing energy (loving intent) knows what to do with any sort of
illness
> including mental. There are no boundries and no instances where it would
or
> could make things worse. You either believe in the power and use it or
don't
> believe in it and spare someone the benifit of it. if reiki opens channels
> to the sub-conscious, then it would open the channels needed to be opened.
> Your analagy is like a farmer planting a seed in the ground but not
covering
> it up with dirt because the seed in the dark would not know which way was
up
> or down. Things that have a purpose know their purpose. Take your tag line
> for instance. . . you either trust in it's inherent wisdom or not but not
> just under certain circumstances.
>

I was waiting for something like this <g>. I did not
say that psychotic people should not be treated
with reiki, but that they should not be *attuned* as
long as they are psychotic or have a strong tendency
to fall into a psychotic states.

I see two issues here. The first is being overwhelmed
by unconscious content which is not good as it does
not bring any benefit but contributes to further
traumatization and breakdowns.
The second is connection to the world around us, our
social reality, and in us. In a psychotic person both
may be lacking to a significant degree and they may
live in a world of their own.
In that state they are unreachable for any teaching
or learning which is a part of getting attuned.
The question was "Would it be possible to attune
psychotic people to reiki?" and not "would it be
possible to attune people who have occasional
psychotic episodes?" Nor was it,"should psychotic
people be treated with reiki?" My answer to the question
asked is no, it is not possible. "Could it cure them?"
If you can't attune them then it (attunement) obviously
can't cure them.
How are you going to attune a person who runs away
from you, hides from you, evades you because you
are a CIA agent who is out to get them? Of course,
the CIA would not be so stupid to leave such an
important task to you only, so there is an agent at
virtually every street corner. Right now there are men
in black leather gear on motorbikes waiting at the corner.
Why would they target him/her? Because the Illuminati
is intent on world domination and has co-opted all the
secret services of the world, as well as the police,
and even the brother/sister.

Are you going to attune a person who permanently
lives in such a state ? And how?

"You are just jealous because the voices only
talk to me." <g>

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 05:50:35 +0200, "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote:

<snip really intense paranoid episode>

>"You are just jealous because the voices only
>talk to me." <g>

Peter, sometimes you almost make us worry about you. Fortunately we
can remind ourselves that just for today... <g>

Garry

######

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"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
> >
> > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > >


i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of psychotic i think
of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you saying
that becoming attuned has no value in healing?

Love is. . ..


> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>
>

######

NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 16:13:53 -0600
From: "Peterz" <peterz@magma.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <No-dnXjuaONTnyOiRVn-uA@magma.ca> <3fbe09e2.229033@news.west.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:11:18 -0500
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11111

That'd be a first.

I was just thinking that it is good that my teacher doesn't shy away from
attuning crazy people...
p

"Nadie Niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
news:3fbe09e2.229033@news.west.earthlink.net...
> Speechless, Peter?  <g>
>
> Garry
>

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com>
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11115


"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com...
>
> "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> >
> > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
> > >
> > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > >
>
>
> i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
> That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
> medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of psychotic i
think
> of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you saying
> that becoming attuned has no value in healing?

Attunement has great value in healing, but first
things first. If somebody breaks a leg you are not
going to give reiki for weeks because you believe
that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
the bone sets crooked. You take the person to
a doctor who will set the leg and take the necessary
steps which will give the best chance for the leg to
heal and return to best possible functionality.
*Then* you may want to apply reiki to assist in the
healing process.

I wrote in the previous post that "they should not
be *attuned* as long as they are psychotic or have
a strong tendency to fall into a psychotic states."
This clearly means, at least to me, that attunement may
become a possibility once a person has reached a level of
stability and social functionality. However, I would not
proceed unless his/her psychiatrist or psychologist
has given the go-ahead. On the one hand, if something
does go wrong they will most likely have to contend
with the fall-out, on the other hand, if things work out
well there might be the possibility of co-operation.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <No-dnXjuaONTnyOiRVn-uA@magma.ca> <3fbe09e2.229033@news.west.earthlink.net> <UqCdnSBegdM8QiKi4p2dnA@magma.ca>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11116


"peterz" <peterz@magma.ca> wrote
> that'd be a first.
>
> I was just thinking that it is good that my teacher doesn't shy away from
> attuning crazy people...
> p
>
> "nadie niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
> news:3fbe09e2.229033@news.west.earthlink.net...
> > speechless, peter?  <g>
> >

garry, your post was intercepted by the evil
powers. the voices also told me not to say
anything until i have found something to encrypt
future mailings. i write this post all in lowercase
so that it will escape the evil power's
detection mechanism but they will be wise
to that very soon. the people who are trying to
get me are very cunning and clever, but just
for this time i outsmarted them. as you can
see i had to lowercase the quoted text as well
which makes replies rather laborious, not
to mention time-consuming. luckily i have the
voices to guide me and give me good advice.
just to be safe they recommend that you take
the same precaution of encryption when posts
refer to me. it does not matter what method
you use as my invisible assistants will be able
to decipher it. they know *everything*.

--
namu amida butsu
peter reber
"life knows its needs"

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.org.net
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whoa. scary. sounds like you're speaking from experience....  =:o

not me

######

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:27:11 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11119


  HI Garry
I did not get if Pr vas jocking of if I missed something !
  Theo

Nadie Niemand wrote:
> whoa. scary. sounds like you're speaking from experience....  =:o
> 
> not me
> 

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
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"Nadie Niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
news:3fc0a6e1.951542@news.west.earthlink.net...
> whoa. scary. sounds like you're speaking from experience....  =:o
>
> not me

it is a good thing you signed your post as "not me"
because now they will not know whom to look for.
you are safe (but only for now)!

not me too

--
namu amida butsu
peter reber
"life knows its needs"

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.org.net
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11123

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:27:11 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>
>  HI Garry
>I did not get if Pr vas jocking of if I missed something !
>  Theo

Yeah, that's what worries, me, too! LOL


Garry

######

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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11135

Just to interject a thought here....when I was attuned, my Master (yes,
I will continue to relate to others as such) pointed out that there is a
certain amount of appropriateness required in doing Reiki classes. This
means that while anyone can attend and be attuned, it is sometimes
necessary to restrict anyone who will disrupt the class. A lot of Reiki
teachers just don't have the time or skills to deal with major
interferences that may arise when they have a roomful of people. Better
to attune that person in a different circumstance. 
Cheers
Rich


arthealer wrote:
> 
 
> i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
> That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
> medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of psychotic i think
> of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you saying
> that becoming attuned has no value in healing?
> 
> Love is. . ..
>

######

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"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com...
> >
> > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > >
> > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > >
> >
> >
> > i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
> > That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
> > medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of psychotic i
> think
> > of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you
saying
> > that becoming attuned has no value in healing?
>
> Attunement has great value in healing, but first
> things first.

i have never been attuned. . .. do you fill out a form that askes you
questions in an attemp to assertain whether or not one has taken the proper
preliminary steps in life? how would theattuner know this? What are the
first things?


>If somebody breaks a leg you are not
> going to give reiki for weeks *because you believe
> that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
> the bone sets crooked*.

  do you see what you are writing peter? a healer cannot afford the luxury
of such  negitive notions.
  Pessimism is infectous. Do you suppose that the healing force you are
attempting to employ understands your 'non-belief'?   How about the person
being treated? More importantly, how about you??

>You take the person to
> a doctor who will set the leg and take the necessary
> steps which will give the best chance for the leg to
> heal and return to best possible functionality.
> *Then* you may want to apply reiki to assist in the
> healing process.
>

     Being that the above is just an example and i suppose most any
"serious" injury or illness could be innerchangable. . . . . .no peter,
*you* take the person to a doctor.


> I wrote in the previous post that "they should not
> be *attuned* as long as they are psychotic or have
> a strong tendency to fall into a psychotic states."
> This clearly means, at least to me, that attunement may
> become a possibility once a person has reached a level of
> stability and social functionality. However, I would not
> proceed unless his/her psychiatrist or psychologist
> has given the go-ahead

  being that a doctor would fully understand the healing power available and
know what is nessesary even more so than reiki itself.

>On the one hand, if something
> does go wrong they will most likely have to contend
> with the fall-out,

 yes, often times reiki manages to bungle the healing process.

>on the other hand, if things work out
> well there might be the possibility of co-operation.

 reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .

i suspect there was a time when ,amongst practitoners ,  reiki was respected
even as much as the allopathic profession itself.

love is . .. .

> --
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>
>
>

######

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Huh? If you don't mind my saying so, this was a very unclear
conversation. What was said, really? I have read and re-read the thread
and am confused.
Rich

######

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"Rich" <rorlesky@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3FC15801.AD9CA92F@shaw.ca...
> Huh? If you don't mind my saying so, this was a very unclear
> conversation. What was said, really? I have read and re-read the thread
> and am confused.
> Rich

what confused you Rich?

Love is.  . .

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com...
>
> "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> news:3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> >
> > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > news:00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com...
> > >
> > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > >
> > > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
> > > That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
> > > medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of psychotic i
> > think
> > > of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you
> saying
> > > that becoming attuned has no value in healing?
> >
> > Attunement has great value in healing, but first
> > things first.
>
> i have never been attuned. . .. do you fill out a form that askes you
> questions in an attemp to assertain whether or not one has taken the
proper
> preliminary steps in life? how would theattuner know this? What are the
> first things?

A form asking questions such as "are you currently in
therapy?" or "are you currently undergoing medical
treatment?" or "do you have any chronic ailment?"
could be a good idea. Why? Because people go to
workshops and get absorbed in it. They forget their
daily routine. When one of the participants is about
to faint you do not want to stand there like an idiot
but know that s/he is a diabetic and maybe ask
when they have eaten last.
First things first is very simple. Would you attune a
person who is obviously intoxicated, drunk or full of
recreational drugs? First things first would mean to tell
him to go home and sober up.
Would you attune a couple who had a major blow-out
between themselves earlier in the day and are still
shaken up badly?
Would you attune a four year old (geniuses excepted)?
Would you attune a mentally challenged person who
is unable to grasp even the simplest concepts reiki
involves?
How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
- and may want to ask a few questions.

Attunement means that you make a committment
to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
As a serious committment it needs to be made
with a clear mind and with an understanding of
what that entails. None of the above people would
fuflill this condition in the state they are in.

> >If somebody breaks a leg you are not
> > going to give reiki for weeks *because you believe
> > that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
> > the bone sets crooked*.
>
>   do you see what you are writing peter? a healer cannot afford the luxury
> of such  negitive notions.

What is negative in what I wrote?

>   Pessimism is infectous. Do you suppose that the healing force you are
> attempting to employ understands your 'non-belief'?   How about the person
> being treated? More importantly, how about you??

I don't know what you are talking about.

> >You take the person to
> > a doctor who will set the leg and take the necessary
> > steps which will give the best chance for the leg to
> > heal and return to best possible functionality.
> > *Then* you may want to apply reiki to assist in the
> > healing process.
> >
>
>      Being that the above is just an example and i suppose most any
> "serious" injury or illness could be innerchangable. . . . . .no peter,
> *you* take the person to a doctor.

Are you saying that doctors have no role to play anymore
once somebody works with reiki?

> > I wrote in the previous post that "they should not
> > be *attuned* as long as they are psychotic or have
> > a strong tendency to fall into a psychotic states."
> > This clearly means, at least to me, that attunement may
> > become a possibility once a person has reached a level of
> > stability and social functionality. However, I would not
> > proceed unless his/her psychiatrist or psychologist
> > has given the go-ahead
>
>   being that a doctor would fully understand the healing power available
and
> know what is nessesary even more so than reiki itself.

I would suggest that most doctors understand or understood
at some time, maybe not fully, the healing powers in living
things. Most are aware of their limitations. You may be of the
opinion that their tools are limited, overused, sometimes
inappropriate, but that is what they are working with. What
most doctors do not have, or do not take, is time with their
patients. In the government hospitals here, they have to see
60 patients a day.
I would further say that doctors and medicine is as much
an expression of reiki as any reiki practitioner. They may
be ignorant of this and this may distort their way of practising.

> >On the one hand, if something
> > does go wrong they will most likely have to contend
> > with the fall-out,
>
>  yes, often times reiki manages to bungle the healing process.

We are talking about psychotic people here.

> >on the other hand, if things work out
> > well there might be the possibility of co-operation.
>
>  reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .

What does that mean?

> i suspect there was a time when ,amongst practitoners ,  reiki was
respected
> even as much as the allopathic profession itself.

You would be surprised! But then with your antagonistic
attitude towards western style health practitioners their
response is predictable. To set yourself up against one
of largest industries, next to arms manufacture and oil,
is just stupid. It is a fight you cannot win, not even in
your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
world? There are plenty of opportunities out there where
we can practice reiki without stepping on other people's
toes.

You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters.

"If you wish to follow the path of the One Vehicle
Have no prejudice against the six senses."

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:37:08 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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HI
  You have been attuned I have been attuned my master has been attuned 
Stuart and Steve has been attuned Garry isprobably the only normal one 
here  ,Gabriel has been attuned and many many others  .. and I cannot 
consider all of us  very normal :-)
  so how can one define which degree of psychotic is dagerous in 
attunement  and which level is not
  Theo

pr wrote:

   delete  1 mile long tail

######

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"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com...
> >
> > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > >
> > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > news:00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > >
> > > > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
> > > > That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
> > > > medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of psychotic
i
> > > think
> > > > of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you
> > saying
> > > > that becoming attuned has no value in healing?
> > >
> > > Attunement has great value in healing, but first
> > > things first.
> >
> > i have never been attuned. . .. do you fill out a form that askes you
> > questions in an attemp to assertain whether or not one has taken the
> proper
> > preliminary steps in life? how would theattuner know this? What are the
> > first things?
>
> A form asking questions such as "are you currently in
> therapy?" or "are you currently undergoing medical
> treatment?" or "do you have any chronic ailment?"
> could be a good idea.

  So I guess there isn't. So,"first things first", as you said isn't really
part of reiki but your own prejudice that you interject into it.

>Why? Because people go to
> workshops and get absorbed in it. They forget their
> daily routine. When one of the participants is about
> to faint you do not want to stand there like an idiot
> but know that s/he is a diabetic and maybe ask
> when they have eaten last.
> First things first is very simple. Would you attune a
> person who is obviously intoxicated, drunk or full of
> recreational drugs?
> First things first would mean to tell
> him to go home and sober up.
> Would you attune a couple who had a major blow-out
> between themselves earlier in the day and are still
> shaken up badly?
> Would you attune a four year old (geniuses excepted)?
> Would you attune a mentally challenged person who
> is unable to grasp even the simplest concepts reiki
> involves?
> How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
> - and may want to ask a few questions.
 > Attunement means that you make a committment
> to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
> Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
> As a serious committment it needs to be made
> with a clear mind and with an understanding of
> what that entails.


  everyone will understand it differently and fit it into their own belief
system so there is really no way for you to censor out those you do not
think are fit.


>None of the above people would
> fuflill this condition in the state they are in.
>
> > >If somebody breaks a leg you are not
> > > going to give reiki for weeks *because you believe
> > > that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
> > > the bone sets crooked*.
> >
> >   do you see what you are writing peter? a healer cannot afford the
luxury
> > of such  negitive notions.
>
> What is negative in what I wrote?

       *because you believe
        that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
        the bone sets crooked*.. . . tell me peter, just exactly in what
cases reiki should and        should not be used.  I have not seen a list of
limitations as yet posted on the news group.



> >   Pessimism is infectous. Do you suppose that the healing force you are
> > attempting to employ understands your 'non-belief'?   How about the
person
> > being treated? More importantly, how about you??
>
> I don't know what you are talking about.

      Are you employing a healing energy? How can you do this with such
little faith in it? You may say it does not require faith but you would not
employ it if you didn't have faith it it's ability to heal. So, up to what
point can *you* with confidence use reiki?

> > >You take the person to
> > > a doctor who will set the leg and take the necessary
> > > steps which will give the best chance for the leg to
> > > heal and return to best possible functionality.
> > > *Then* you may want to apply reiki to assist in the
> > > healing process.
> > >
> >
> >      Being that the above is just an example and i suppose most any
> > "serious" injury or illness could be innerchangable. . . . . .no peter,
> > *you* take the person to a doctor.
>
 >Are you saying that doctors have no role to play anymore
 >once somebody works with reiki?

No, not somebody,  but rather someone that believes in what reiki can
accomplish.

> > > I wrote in the previous post that "they should not
> > > be *attuned* as long as they are psychotic or have
> > > a strong tendency to fall into a psychotic states."
> > > This clearly means, at least to me, that attunement may
> > > become a possibility once a person has reached a level of
> > > stability and social functionality. However, I would not
> > > proceed unless his/her psychiatrist or psychologist
> > > has given the go-ahead
> >
> >   being that a doctor would fully understand the healing power available
> and
> > know what is nessesary even more so than reiki itself.
>
> I would suggest that most doctors understand or understood
> at some time, maybe not fully, the healing powers in living
> things. Most are aware of their limitations.

   so, the limitations you hold for reiki are those of the allopathic
profession?

>You may be of the
> opinion that their tools are limited, overused, sometimes
> inappropriate, but that is what they are working with. What
> most doctors do not have, or do not take, is time with their
> patients. In the government hospitals here, they have to see
> 60 patients a day.

 You defend the profession.. . . why? I did not attack it.

> I would further say that doctors and medicine is as much
> an expression of reiki as any reiki practitioner. They may
> be ignorant of this and this may distort their way of practising.

  I don't know any allopathic doctors . . . . not one. . .that practices
without pay. Would you practice reiki even if you didn't get paid? Healing
is free. I don't buy that "doctors and medicine is as much an expression of
reiki as any reiki practitioner" because doctors are not employing the
energy. . . .they are saying by most of their treatments of drugs and such
that the body doesn't know what it's doing or how to heal itself. . . .that
healing cannot occure without their input.

> > >On the one hand, if something
> > > does go wrong they will most likely have to contend
> > > with the fall-out,
> >
> >  yes, often times reiki manages to bungle the healing process.
>
> We are talking about psychotic people here.

 no, not just psychotic people. we are talking about many other kinds of
people you have mentioned. . . .sometimes we are talking in generalities.

> > >on the other hand, if things work out
> > > well there might be the possibility of co-operation.
> >
> >  reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .
>
> What does that mean?

  It means,in my opinion, you have little faith in the healing power of
reiki.

> > i suspect there was a time when ,amongst practitoners ,  reiki was
> respected
> > even as much as the allopathic profession itself.
>
> You would be surprised! But then with your antagonistic
> attitude towards western style health practitioners their
> response is predictable. To set yourself up against one
> of largest industries, next to arms manufacture and oil,
> is just stupid.

lol, but to join them is what? I have not set myself "against" them but
rather sidestep their notions. One either buys their reality or not.  . .I
choose not to. I do not defend it as you do. I am a proponent of reiki as a
non-invasive healing art and here you are practicing reiki and refuse to
hold it in the esteem you do allopathic medicine.

>it is a fight you cannot win, not even in
> your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
> world?

 Hmmmmmmm . .. maybe you are right. .. people should just lend their
personal power and beliefs to big business. . . disregaurd our spirituality
. . . .save ourselves the trouble of a dissagreement.

> There are plenty of opportunities out there where
> we can practice reiki without stepping on other people's
> toes.

there is a huge difference between stepping on toes and shoeing thier feet.

> You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
> the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
> is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
> whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters.

  I hardly know how to respond to this or where to begin with these
misconceptions you are spouting. This shows me that you are so rooted in the
physical world that you cannot see anything but. Reiki is not of the
physical realm. How did you make this leap of faith to begin with? You of
all people that speak the self not existing except as a convenience. Are we
our bodies and nothing more? What is distance healing? Come on Peter, you
are not as pedantic as you sometimes try to appear. Do you dare reiki
itself to have "elevated" the "spiritual" above the physical realm??



> "If you wish to follow the path of the One Vehicle
> Have no prejudice against the six senses."

  "And transversly . .. don't worship them."
  love is . .. .

> --
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com> <3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3fc24fc3$1_2@news.bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:3fc24fc3$1_2@news.bluewin.ch...
> HI
>   You have been attuned I have been attuned my master has been attuned
> Stuart and Steve has been attuned Garry isprobably the only normal one
> here  ,Gabriel has been attuned and many many others  .. and I cannot
> consider all of us  very normal :-)

And judging from the mails neither are we psychotic.
Would you please give me an idea why you think that
some of the people you listed are "not very normal",
including possibly yourself?

>   so how can one define which degree of psychotic is dagerous in
> attunement  and which level is not
>   Theo
>
> pr wrote:
>
>    delete  1 mile long tail

If you would read more and snip less you might have
come across what I wrote:
/quote
How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
- and may want to ask a few questions.

Attunement means that you make a committment
to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
As a serious committment it needs to be made
with a clear mind and with an understanding of
what that entails.
/end quote

Does that answer your question?

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:37:08 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>...Garry isprobably the only normal one here...

Boy, have I got Theo fooled!  ;-)

Garry

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Don't know that I'm prepared to get in the middle of this exchange,
but there was one thing I did want to reply to:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:22:35 GMT, "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com>
wrote:

>  I don't know any allopathic doctors . . . . not one. . .that practices
>without pay. Would you practice reiki even if you didn't get paid? Healing

Yes, not only for myself, but for those around me. Some people depend
on their Reiki practice for their income, but I do not, so that gives
me the opportunity to offer it freely. I suppose in some cases,
allopathic doctors do something similar, taking on hardship cases even
when they know the patient can't pay. A young friend of mine got
braces for his teeth at a reduced rate because the orthodontist
understood that the young man only worked part time after school and
his parents were poor and jobless. 

OTOH, I do not know any allopathic doctors who do something else for
their income, and do their "doctoring" on the side. Becoming a doctor
is a huge investment in terms of both time and money. So it's only
reasonable to expect them to want to recoup it. As for whether or not
that's beneficial for the patients....

Garry



>is free. I don't buy that "doctors and medicine is as much an expression of
>reiki as any reiki practitioner" because doctors are not employing the
>energy. . . .they are saying by most of their treatments of drugs and such
>that the body doesn't know what it's doing or how to heal itself. . . .that
>healing cannot occure without their input.
>
>> > >On the one hand, if something
>> > > does go wrong they will most likely have to contend
>> > > with the fall-out,
>> >
>> >  yes, often times reiki manages to bungle the healing process.
>>
>> We are talking about psychotic people here.
>
> no, not just psychotic people. we are talking about many other kinds of
>people you have mentioned. . . .sometimes we are talking in generalities.
>
>> > >on the other hand, if things work out
>> > > well there might be the possibility of co-operation.
>> >
>> >  reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .
>>
>> What does that mean?
>
>  It means,in my opinion, you have little faith in the healing power of
>reiki.
>
>> > i suspect there was a time when ,amongst practitoners ,  reiki was
>> respected
>> > even as much as the allopathic profession itself.
>>
>> You would be surprised! But then with your antagonistic
>> attitude towards western style health practitioners their
>> response is predictable. To set yourself up against one
>> of largest industries, next to arms manufacture and oil,
>> is just stupid.
>
>lol, but to join them is what? I have not set myself "against" them but
>rather sidestep their notions. One either buys their reality or not.  . .I
>choose not to. I do not defend it as you do. I am a proponent of reiki as a
>non-invasive healing art and here you are practicing reiki and refuse to
>hold it in the esteem you do allopathic medicine.
>
>>it is a fight you cannot win, not even in
>> your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
>> world?
>
> Hmmmmmmm . .. maybe you are right. .. people should just lend their
>personal power and beliefs to big business. . . disregaurd our spirituality
>. . . .save ourselves the trouble of a dissagreement.
>
>> There are plenty of opportunities out there where
>> we can practice reiki without stepping on other people's
>> toes.
>
>there is a huge difference between stepping on toes and shoeing thier feet.
>
>> You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
>> the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
>> is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
>> whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters.
>
>  I hardly know how to respond to this or where to begin with these
>misconceptions you are spouting. This shows me that you are so rooted in the
>physical world that you cannot see anything but. Reiki is not of the
>physical realm. How did you make this leap of faith to begin with? You of
>all people that speak the self not existing except as a convenience. Are we
>our bodies and nothing more? What is distance healing? Come on Peter, you
>are not as pedantic as you sometimes try to appear. Do you dare reiki
>itself to have "elevated" the "spiritual" above the physical realm??
>
>
>
>> "If you wish to follow the path of the One Vehicle
>> Have no prejudice against the six senses."
>
>  "And transversly . .. don't worship them."
>  love is . .. .
>
>> --
>> Namu Amida Butsu
>> Peter Reber
>> "Life knows its needs"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

######

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:41:45 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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HI

pr wrote:


> If you would read more and snip less you might have
> come across what I wrote:
> /quote
> How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
> - and may want to ask a few questions.

  I read that and Hearthealer I guess answered to that also

> Attunement means that you make a committment
> to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
  and this cannot be asked to a psychotic person as will probaly cheat
  so what do you do? ask a psychic certificate of mental health before 
attuning  someone  ?
> Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
> As a serious committment it needs to be made
> with a clear mind and with an understanding of
> what that entails.
> /end quote
> 
> Does that answer your question?

  If I was saying that most of us are  not very *normal* it is first of 
all a joke, but if you honestly take a distant look as an external not 
involved person, when we say that  we are* light workers*even if it 
works, most of the "silent majority" will have an ironic smile!
  we must not loose the evidence of reality
  In matter of fact  most of us even if attuned and practice Reiki ,by 
their attitude here and from what I read are not really very convinced 
of what they do !, many believe but still  strongly wish  scientific 
evidence .. we already discussed about and all is linked
  have a nice day
  Loave and light
  Theo

> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

######

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:51:45 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11172

HI Arthealer
  I agee with your statemenets  and after all  using a common saying

  What are we to judge what is normal ?
  What is normal?
  Who is Normal?
and in the very deep we talk about love and compassion.. but we 
discriminate to give attunement to a person taht we judge *diffeent"from 
teh normn
  and this is a non sense
  that it might rise problems I guess, but I also guess that it might 
,but it is  up to the skill  of the master to feel  how to proceed in 
such circumstances we cannot  try to make a general rule
  Love an dlight
  Theo

arthealer wrote:

######

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 07:53:41 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11173

   Coming out!
you see Psychotic are gifted in fooling people:-!
  Theo

Nadie Niemand wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:37:08 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> 
> 
>>...Garry isprobably the only normal one here...
> 
> 
> Boy, have I got Theo fooled!  ;-)
> 
> Garry
> 

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:bb669901a9bfb9b4888d511b128690d2@news.teranews.com...
>
> "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> news:3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> >
> > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > news:ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com...
> > >
> > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > news:3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > >
> > > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
> > > > > That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
> > > > > medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of
psychotic
> i
> > > > think
> > > > > of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you
> > > saying
> > > > > that becoming attuned has no value in healing?
> > > >
> > > > Attunement has great value in healing, but first
> > > > things first.
> > >
> > > i have never been attuned. . .. do you fill out a form that askes you
> > > questions in an attemp to assertain whether or not one has taken the
> > proper
> > > preliminary steps in life? how would theattuner know this? What are
the
> > > first things?
> >
> > A form asking questions such as "are you currently in
> > therapy?" or "are you currently undergoing medical
> > treatment?" or "do you have any chronic ailment?"
> > could be a good idea.
>
>   So I guess there isn't. So,"first things first", as you said isn't reall
y
> part of reiki but your own prejudice that you interject into it.

It helps to read a post from beginning to end first
before writing down replies. In this way you would
have come across the reasons below. If being a
workshop/seminar leader who is considers the
welfare of the participants is a prejudice then I am
ok with it.

> >Why? Because people go to
> > workshops and get absorbed in it. They forget their
> > daily routine. When one of the participants is about
> > to faint you do not want to stand there like an idiot
> > but know that s/he is a diabetic and maybe ask
> > when they have eaten last.
> > First things first is very simple. Would you attune a
> > person who is obviously intoxicated, drunk or full of
> > recreational drugs?
> > First things first would mean to tell
> > him to go home and sober up.
> > Would you attune a couple who had a major blow-out
> > between themselves earlier in the day and are still
> > shaken up badly?
> > Would you attune a four year old (geniuses excepted)?
> > Would you attune a mentally challenged person who
> > is unable to grasp even the simplest concepts reiki
> > involves?
> > How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
> > - and may want to ask a few questions.
>  > Attunement means that you make a committment
> > to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
> > Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
> > As a serious committment it needs to be made
> > with a clear mind and with an understanding of
> > what that entails.
>
>
>   everyone will understand it differently and fit it into their own belief
> system so there is really no way for you to censor out those you do not
> think are fit.

It is wonderful that we are able to make so many
things absolutely relative. Yes, there are conditions
which make a person unfit to be attuned *at the time*.
There are conditions which make it undesirable for a
person to be subjected to an operation, or make it
undesirable to do something as simple as donating
blood.
How about stating whether you would attuned the
people above? How about stating what you understand
attunement to mean?

> >None of the above people would
> > fuflill this condition in the state they are in.
> >
> > > >If somebody breaks a leg you are not
> > > > going to give reiki for weeks *because you believe
> > > > that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
> > > > the bone sets crooked*.
> > >
> > >   do you see what you are writing peter? a healer cannot afford the
> luxury
> > > of such  negitive notions.
> >
> > What is negative in what I wrote?
>
>        *because you believe
>         that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
>         the bone sets crooked*.. . . tell me peter, just exactly in what
> cases reiki should and        should not be used.  I have not seen a list
of
> limitations as yet posted on the news group.

You use that available resources which give the
client the best possible means to restore full health.
Reiki is one of these resources but not the only one
and neither is it always the most appropriate one.
A remote family member jumped over a gate recently.
His ring got hooked and he tore (!) his finger off.
Assuming you were there at the time would you
just give him reiki or would you take him to hospital
as quickly as possible?

> > >   Pessimism is infectous. Do you suppose that the healing force you
are
> > > attempting to employ understands your 'non-belief'?   How about the
> person
> > > being treated? More importantly, how about you??
> >
> > I don't know what you are talking about.
>
>       Are you employing a healing energy? How can you do this with such
> little faith in it? You may say it does not require faith but you would
not
> employ it if you didn't have faith it it's ability to heal. So, up to what
> point can *you* with confidence use reiki?

So you are questioning my bona fides as a student of reiki?

>  >Are you saying that doctors have no role to play anymore
>  >once somebody works with reiki?
>
> No, not somebody,  but rather someone that believes in what reiki can
> accomplish.

That is pretty clear and should answer the question
about what you would do in the case of the finger
injury.

> > I would suggest that most doctors understand or understood
> > at some time, maybe not fully, the healing powers in living
> > things. Most are aware of their limitations.
>
>    so, the limitations you hold for reiki are those of the allopathic
> profession?

Huh? Where did I say that?

> >You may be of the
> > opinion that their tools are limited, overused, sometimes
> > inappropriate, but that is what they are working with. What
> > most doctors do not have, or do not take, is time with their
> > patients. In the government hospitals here, they have to see
> > 60 patients a day.
>
>  You defend the profession.. . . why? I did not attack it.

To acknowledge that there are other healing possibilities
is not to defend something. You wrote:
(him/her) "> being that a doctor would fully understand the
> healing power available and
> know what is nessesary even more so than reiki itself."

I took this as a sarcastic comment and being sarcastic
it would mean the exact opposite. Sarcasm is a form
of attack.

> > I would further say that doctors and medicine is as much
> > an expression of reiki as any reiki practitioner. They may
> > be ignorant of this and this may distort their way of practising.
>
>   I don't know any allopathic doctors . . . . not one. . .that practices
> without pay. Would you practice reiki even if you didn't get paid? Healing
> is free. I don't buy that "doctors and medicine is as much an expression
of
> reiki as any reiki practitioner" because doctors are not employing the
> energy. . . .they are saying by most of their treatments of drugs and such
> that the body doesn't know what it's doing or how to heal itself. . .
.that
> healing cannot occure without their input.

What does pay have to do with it? Besides, money is
also one particular form of reiki energy.
As to the rest you are talking nonsense. I challenge you
to find one, yes, just one doctor who in the final anaysis
does not admit that as far as healing is concerned it has
nothing to do with him and that ultimately it is the patient
who does the healing himself. The keywords here being
"final analysis" and ultimately.

> > >  reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .
> >
> > What does that mean?
>
>   It means,in my opinion, you have little faith in the healing power of
> reiki.

So noted.

> >it is a fight you cannot win, not even in
> > your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
> > world?
>
>  Hmmmmmmm . .. maybe you are right. .. people should just lend their
> personal power and beliefs to big business. . . disregaurd our
spirituality
> . . . .save ourselves the trouble of a dissagreement.

Did I say something like joining big business, lending power
to them? You are making things up.

> > There are plenty of opportunities out there where
> > we can practice reiki without stepping on other people's
> > toes.
>
> there is a huge difference between stepping on toes and shoeing thier
feet.

If reiki could shoe their feet, even in the remotest way
possible, they would have co-opted it long ago.

> > You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
> > the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
> > is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
> > whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters.
>
>   I hardly know how to respond to this or where to begin with these
> misconceptions you are spouting. This shows me that you are so rooted in
the
> physical world that you cannot see anything but. Reiki is not of the
> physical realm. How did you make this leap of faith to begin with?

Very simple, if there is only ONE, as it is so often claimed,
then to say that reiki, as universal energy, or universal life
energy, does not express itself in the physical is absolutely
absurd.
You may of course not subscribe to the idea that all is ONE,
but that there are two, three, or even more. Basically there
is *this* realm and *that* realm with the inevitable question
of which one is more real and everything that flows out of
that.

>You of
> all people that speak the self not existing except as a convenience. Are
we
> our bodies and nothing more?

Our bodies are particular expressions of the "ground of being".
Our bodies retain the connection to this ground at all times.
And so, we, as we know ourselves, are our bodies and are not
our bodies at the same time.
I do not belief that we are "spiritual beings having a human
experience" because I have never experienced myself as
a spiritual being. OTOH, I have experienced myself as a
"human being having a spiritual experience" many times
which leads me to belief that I am a human being, with
a human body, who can access other realms.

>What is distance healing? Come on Peter, you
> are not as pedantic as you sometimes try to appear. Do you dare reiki
> itself to have "elevated" the "spiritual" above the physical realm??

Reiki is. It does not care about elevation or above and below,
such things are purely human inventions. The question is
thus posed wrongly and should be "have you elevated the
spiritual over the physical"?

> > "If you wish to follow the path of the One Vehicle
> > Have no prejudice against the six senses."
>
>   "And transversly . .. don't worship them."

Recognition and acknowledgment does not amount to worship.

"To oppose what you like and dislike,
that is the malady of the mind."

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

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"Nadie Niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
news:3fc2d537.785888@news.west.earthlink.net...

> Don't know that I'm prepared to get in the middle of this exchange,
> but there was one thing I did want to reply to:

     Hey Garry:)
>
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:22:35 GMT, "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com>
> wrote:
>
> >  I don't know any allopathic doctors . . . . not one. . .that practices
> >without pay. Would you practice reiki even if you didn't get paid?
Healing
>
> Yes, not only for myself, but for those around me.

  Yes, certainly because it is your nature to want to aid someone in need
and don't mind sharing your knowledge and abilities.  This is as it should
be i believe. Your compansation is intrinsic.

>Some people depend
> on their Reiki practice for their income, but I do not, so that gives
> me the opportunity to offer it freely.

  Understood, but the healing energy does not discriminate against people
without money for treatment. . . . people do.  i do art for money but it
doesn't mean i deprive people if they cannot pay my price. Things are
negotiable.

> I suppose in some cases,
> allopathic doctors do something similar, taking on hardship cases even
> when they know the patient can't pay. A young friend of mine got
> braces for his teeth at a reduced rate because the orthodontist
> understood that the young man only worked part time after school and
> his parents were poor and jobless.

   Yes, and this is good and right. What i am talking about when i say"
would you do it even if you didn't get paid" shows a love for what you do
and a respect for it that is often missing in western medicine.
>
> OTOH, I do not know any allopathic doctors who do something else for
> their income, and do their "doctoring" on the side. Becoming a doctor
> is a huge investment in terms of both time and money.

   yes, they seem to get their money back one hundred fold as i don't know
any poor doctors.

> So it's only
> reasonable to expect them to want to recoup it.

    recouping is understandable. .. . . .does it take a lifetime?
    This fact smacks of perhaps different motives than wanting to be part of
the healing arts.
  Love is . .. . .

>As for whether or not
> that's beneficial for the patients....


> Garry
>
>
>
> >is free. I don't buy that "doctors and medicine is as much an expression
of
> >reiki as any reiki practitioner" because doctors are not employing the
> >energy. . . .they are saying by most of their treatments of drugs and
such
> >that the body doesn't know what it's doing or how to heal itself. . .
.that
> >healing cannot occure without their input.
> >
> >> > >On the one hand, if something
> >> > > does go wrong they will most likely have to contend
> >> > > with the fall-out,
> >> >
> >> >  yes, often times reiki manages to bungle the healing process.
> >>
> >> We are talking about psychotic people here.
> >
> > no, not just psychotic people. we are talking about many other kinds of
> >people you have mentioned. . . .sometimes we are talking in generalities.
> >
> >> > >on the other hand, if things work out
> >> > > well there might be the possibility of co-operation.
> >> >
> >> >  reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .
> >>
> >> What does that mean?
> >
> >  It means,in my opinion, you have little faith in the healing power of
> >reiki.
> >
> >> > i suspect there was a time when ,amongst practitoners ,  reiki was
> >> respected
> >> > even as much as the allopathic profession itself.
> >>
> >> You would be surprised! But then with your antagonistic
> >> attitude towards western style health practitioners their
> >> response is predictable. To set yourself up against one
> >> of largest industries, next to arms manufacture and oil,
> >> is just stupid.
> >
> >lol, but to join them is what? I have not set myself "against" them but
> >rather sidestep their notions. One either buys their reality or not.  .
.I
> >choose not to. I do not defend it as you do. I am a proponent of reiki as
a
> >non-invasive healing art and here you are practicing reiki and refuse to
> >hold it in the esteem you do allopathic medicine.
> >
> >>it is a fight you cannot win, not even in
> >> your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
> >> world?
> >
> > Hmmmmmmm . .. maybe you are right. .. people should just lend their
> >personal power and beliefs to big business. . . disregaurd our
spirituality
> >. . . .save ourselves the trouble of a dissagreement.
> >
> >> There are plenty of opportunities out there where
> >> we can practice reiki without stepping on other people's
> >> toes.
> >
> >there is a huge difference between stepping on toes and shoeing thier
feet.
> >
> >> You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
> >> the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
> >> is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
> >> whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters.
> >
> >  I hardly know how to respond to this or where to begin with these
> >misconceptions you are spouting. This shows me that you are so rooted in
the
> >physical world that you cannot see anything but. Reiki is not of the
> >physical realm. How did you make this leap of faith to begin with? You of
> >all people that speak the self not existing except as a convenience. Are
we
> >our bodies and nothing more? What is distance healing? Come on Peter, you
> >are not as pedantic as you sometimes try to appear. Do you dare reiki
> >itself to have "elevated" the "spiritual" above the physical realm??
> >
> >
> >
> >> "If you wish to follow the path of the One Vehicle
> >> Have no prejudice against the six senses."
> >
> >  "And transversly . .. don't worship them."
> >  love is . .. .
> >
> >> --
> >> Namu Amida Butsu
> >> Peter Reber
> >> "Life knows its needs"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:3fc2fc61$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
>    Coming out!
> you see Psychotic are gifted in fooling people:-!

I know that this is probably a joke, but I think it also
gives an indication of what people might belief.

I have come to the conclusion that most people
here do not know what psychosis means and
have never come across a really psychotic person.

Maybe the dictionary definition may help:
psychosis=severe mental derangement involving the
whole personality.

From this you can take that there is absolutely no
way that they can possibly fool people because it is
so self-evident that the person has some kind of
problem.
Psychosis is not being neurotic nor is it schizophrenia.
Psychosis is a severe mental problem which makes
it virtually impossible to reach the person and thus
precludes almost any interaction, except on the terms
of the psychotic person. Such interaction is unlikely to be
easy, pleasant, rational or logical. While there may indeed
be lucid moments they are usually of short duration.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

>
> Nadie Niemand wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:37:08 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>...Garry isprobably the only normal one here...
> >
> >
> > Boy, have I got Theo fooled!  ;-)
> >
> > Garry
> >
>

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
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"Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:3fc2fbed$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> HI Arthealer
>   I agee with your statemenets  and after all  using a common saying
>
>   What are we to judge what is normal ?
>   What is normal?
>   Who is Normal?
> and in the very deep we talk about love and compassion.. but we
> discriminate to give attunement to a person taht we judge *diffeent"from
> teh normn

I have come to the conclusion that most people
here do not know what psychosis means and
have never come across a really psychotic person.

Maybe the dictionary definition may help:
psychosis=severe mental derangement involving the
whole personality.

Psychosis is not being neurotic nor is it schizophrenia.
Psychosis is a severe mental problem and if a person
is in the grip of psychosis you will have no doubt that
that they are somehow not normal at that time.

>   and this is a non sense


Let me make another thing clear. What I am judging
is not the person but their behaviour. That such behaviour
may be involuntary is besides the point. Actions must
be appropriate to the task one wants to achieve and
appropriate to the job at hand.

>   that it might rise problems I guess, but I also guess that it might
> ,but it is  up to the skill  of the master to feel  how to proceed in
> such circumstances we cannot  try to make a general rule

Of course we can make general rules:
Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
--are drunk
--have used recreational drugs within the last 4 weeks
--are under severe emotional stress
--are in immediate need of medical attention
--are in shock
--consider healing to be the devils work

Do you think that these rules are utterly unreasonable?
That their application should be the exception rather than
the rule?
A simple yes/no answer suffices, although feel free to
substantiate, explain or elaborate on your answer.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

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"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fc38cf7.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:bb669901a9bfb9b4888d511b128690d2@news.teranews.com...
> >
> > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > >
> > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > news:ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com...
> > > >
> > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > news:3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > >
> > > > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
> > > > > > That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but
on
> > > > > > medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of
> psychotic
> > i
> > > > > think
> > > > > > of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are
you
> > > > saying
> > > > > > that becoming attuned has no value in healing?
> > > > >
> > > > > Attunement has great value in healing, but first
> > > > > things first.
> > > >
> > > > i have never been attuned. . .. do you fill out a form that askes
you
> > > > questions in an attemp to assertain whether or not one has taken the
> > > proper
> > > > preliminary steps in life? how would theattuner know this? What are
> the
> > > > first things?
> > >
> > > A form asking questions such as "are you currently in
> > > therapy?" or "are you currently undergoing medical
> > > treatment?" or "do you have any chronic ailment?"
> > > could be a good idea.
> >
> >   So I guess there isn't. So,"first things first", as you said isn't
reall
> y
> > part of reiki but your own prejudice that you interject into it.
>
> It helps to read a post from beginning to end first
> before writing down replies. In this way you would
> have come across the reasons below. If being a
> workshop/seminar leader who is considers the
> welfare of the participants is a prejudice then I am
> ok with it.
>
   i really wasn't as interested in the reasons you are prejudice but just
proof that you were and stating it as such. "considers the welfare" . . . .
it is good to know someone that knows what is best for others and is in a
position to "enforce" it.

> > >Why? Because people go to
> > > workshops and get absorbed in it. They forget their
> > > daily routine. When one of the participants is about
> > > to faint you do not want to stand there like an idiot
> > > but know that s/he is a diabetic and maybe ask
> > > when they have eaten last.
> > > First things first is very simple. Would you attune a
> > > person who is obviously intoxicated, drunk or full of
> > > recreational drugs?
> > > First things first would mean to tell
> > > him to go home and sober up.
> > > Would you attune a couple who had a major blow-out
> > > between themselves earlier in the day and are still
> > > shaken up badly?
> > > Would you attune a four year old (geniuses excepted)?
> > > Would you attune a mentally challenged person who
> > > is unable to grasp even the simplest concepts reiki
> > > involves?
> > > How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
> > > - and may want to ask a few questions.
> >  > Attunement means that you make a committment
> > > to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
> > > Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
> > > As a serious committment it needs to be made
> > > with a clear mind and with an understanding of
> > > what that entails.
> >
> >
> >   everyone will understand it differently and fit it into their own
belief
> > system so there is really no way for you to censor out those you do not
> > think are fit.
>
> It is wonderful that we are able to make so many
> things absolutely relative. Yes, there are conditions
> which make a person unfit to be attuned *at the time*.
> There are conditions which make it undesirable for a
> person to be subjected to an operation, or make it
> undesirable to do something as simple as donating
> blood.
> How about stating whether you would attuned the
> people above? How about stating what you understand
> attunement to mean?

  I am unable to "attune" another to reiki. Would I if I were trained ?. . .
.if someone came to me to be attuned . .then, yes.
 My understanding of attunement is matching ones vibration to an energy.( i
don't really subscribe to this belief but. . .) i also understand that
attunement can be spontanious.

> > >None of the above people would
> > > fuflill this condition in the state they are in.
> > >
> > > > >If somebody breaks a leg you are not
> > > > > going to give reiki for weeks *because you believe
> > > > > that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
> > > > > the bone sets crooked*.
> > > >
> > > >   do you see what you are writing peter? a healer cannot afford the
> > luxury
> > > > of such  negitive notions.
> > >
> > > What is negative in what I wrote?
> >
> >        *because you believe
> >         that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
> >         the bone sets crooked*.. . . tell me peter, just exactly in what
> > cases reiki should and        should not be used.  I have not seen a
list
> of
> > limitations as yet posted on the news group.
>
> You use that available resources which give the
> client the best possible means to restore full health.
> Reiki is one of these resources but not the only one
> and neither is it always the most appropriate one.

 there you go revieling your faith in reiki again.

> A remote family member jumped over a gate recently.
> His ring got hooked and he tore (!) his finger off.
> Assuming you were there at the time would you
> just give him reiki or would you take him to hospital
> as quickly as possible?

  i would not make this discission for another.


> > > >   Pessimism is infectous. Do you suppose that the healing force you
> are
> > > > attempting to employ understands your 'non-belief'?   How about the
> > person
> > > > being treated? More importantly, how about you??
> > >
> > > I don't know what you are talking about.
> >
> >       Are you employing a healing energy? How can you do this with such
> > little faith in it? You may say it does not require faith but you would
> not
> > employ it if you didn't have faith it it's ability to heal. So, up to
what
> > point can *you* with confidence use reiki?
>
> So you are questioning my bona fides as a student of reiki?

  Are you? agian, how can you do this with such little faith in it?

> >  >Are you saying that doctors have no role to play anymore
> >  >once somebody works with reiki?
> >
> > No, not somebody,  but rather someone that believes in what reiki can
> > accomplish.
>
> That is pretty clear and should answer the question
> about what you would do in the case of the finger
> injury.

   yes, it does but again, i wouldn't make that decission for another.

> > > I would suggest that most doctors understand or understood
> > > at some time, maybe not fully, the healing powers in living
> > > things. Most are aware of their limitations.
> >
> >    so, the limitations you hold for reiki are those of the allopathic
> > profession?
>
> Huh? Where did I say that?

 what you are stating peter is *your* understanding of what a doctor
understands, and in doing so, state you own views. You do it again below. .
. .


> > >You may be of the
> > > opinion that their tools are limited, overused, sometimes
> > > inappropriate, but that is what they are working with. What
> > > most doctors do not have, or do not take, is time with their
> > > patients. In the government hospitals here, they have to see
> > > 60 patients a day.
> >
> >  You defend the profession.. . . why? I did not attack it.
>
> To acknowledge that there are other healing possibilities
> is not to defend something.


         This:   "You may be of the opinion that their tools are limited,
overused,    sometimes inappropriate, but that is what they are working
with. What
         most doctors do not have, or do not take, is time with their
         patients. In the government hospitals here, they have to see
        60 patients a day." is not just acknowledging other healing
possibilities.

       you have not defended reiki once here and it would have been just as
appropriate since i have not attacked reiki either.

>You wrote:
> (him/her) "> being that a doctor would fully understand the
> > healing power available and
> > know what is nessesary even more so than reiki itself."
>
> I took this as a sarcastic comment and being sarcastic
> it would mean the exact opposite. Sarcasm is a form
> of attack.

   I paraphrased what you said. I just gave it back to you in a way you
might see how you negate reiki and elevate allopathy.


> > > I would further say that doctors and medicine is as much
> > > an expression of reiki as any reiki practitioner. They may
> > > be ignorant of this and this may distort their way of practising.
> >
> >   I don't know any allopathic doctors . . . . not one. . .that practices
> > without pay. Would you practice reiki even if you didn't get paid?
Healing
> > is free. I don't buy that "doctors and medicine is as much an expression
> of
> > reiki as any reiki practitioner" because doctors are not employing the
> > energy. . . .they are saying by most of their treatments of drugs and
such
> > that the body doesn't know what it's doing or how to heal itself. . .
> .that
> > healing cannot occure without their input.
>
> What does pay have to do with it?

pr wrote:
" To set yourself up against one
of largest industries, next to arms manufacture and oil,
is just stupid. It is a fight you cannot win, not even in
your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
world?

hmmmmmmm . . ..*what does money have to do with it??* This is, i am sure,
just as much in the spirit of reiki, no?

>Besides, money is
> also one particular form of reiki energy.
> As to the rest you are talking nonsense. I challenge you
> to find one, yes, just one doctor who in the final anaysis
> does not admit that as far as healing is concerned it has
> nothing to do with him and that ultimately it is the patient
> who does the healing himself.

 yes, interesting isn't it. . .. that they can demand *so much money* for
something that " as far as healing is concerned it has nothing to do with
him (the doctor)  and that ultimately it is the patient who does the healing
himself".

>The keywords here being
> "final analysis" and ultimately.

no, the key words here are your entire defence of one of the largest
industries on the planet. . .like it needed your defence.


> > > >  reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .
> > >
> > > What does that mean?
> >
> >   It means,in my opinion, you have little faith in the healing power of
> > reiki.
>
> So noted.
>
> > >it is a fight you cannot win, not even in
> > > your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
> > > world?
> >
> >  Hmmmmmmm . .. maybe you are right. .. people should just lend their
> > personal power and beliefs to big business. . . disregaurd our
> spirituality
> > . . . .save ourselves the trouble of a dissagreement.
>
> Did I say something like joining big business, lending power
> to them? You are making things up.


    Am i?  You have defended:   " one
of largest industries, next to arms manufacture and oil"    this entire
dialoge. Have you not lent the power of your beliefs to them? I say,
absolutely.

> > > There are plenty of opportunities out there where
> > > we can practice reiki without stepping on other people's
> > > toes.
> >
> > there is a huge difference between stepping on toes and shoeing thier
> feet.
>
> If reiki could shoe their feet, even in the remotest way
> possible, they would have co-opted it long ago.
>
> > > You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
> > > the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
> > > is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
> > > whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters.
> >
> >   I hardly know how to respond to this or where to begin with these
> > misconceptions you are spouting. This shows me that you are so rooted in
> the
> > physical world that you cannot see anything but. Reiki is not of the
> > physical realm. How did you make this leap of faith to begin with?
>


> Very simple, if there is only ONE, as it is so often claimed,
> then to say that reiki, as universal energy, or universal life
> energy, does not express itself in the physical is absolutely
> absurd.

What i said was,  "Reiki is not of the
physical realm." i did not say it didn't express itself in the physical.
i believe you are not of the physical realm peter but you certainly have no
trouble expressing yourself here.

> You may of course not subscribe to the idea that all is ONE,
> but that there are two, three, or even more. Basically there
> is *this* realm and *that* realm with the inevitable question
> of which one is more real and everything that flows out of
> that.
>
        do you believe in distance healing?  can you explain this "physical
phenomenon".


> >You of
> > all people that speak the self not existing except as a convenience. Are
> we
> > our bodies and nothing more?
>
> Our bodies are particular expressions of the "ground of being".
> Our bodies retain the connection to this ground at all times.
> And so, we, as we know ourselves, are our bodies and are not
> our bodies at the same time.
> I do not belief that we are "spiritual beings having a human
> experience" because I have never experienced myself as
> a spiritual being.
> OTOH, I have experienced myself as a
> "human being having a spiritual experience" many times
> which leads me to belief that I am a human being, with
> a human body, who can access other realms.

could one of these other realms be reiki energy?

> >What is distance healing? Come on Peter, you
> > are not as pedantic as you sometimes try to appear. Do you dare reiki
> > itself to have "elevated" the "spiritual" above the physical realm??
>
> Reiki is. It does not care about elevation or above and below,
> such things are purely human inventions. The question is
> thus posed wrongly and should be "have you elevated the
> spiritual over the physical"?


no, you simply don't understand it, and as much as i'd like to. . .i can't
attune you to it.


> > > "If you wish to follow the path of the One Vehicle
> > > Have no prejudice against the six senses."
> >
> >   "And transversly . .. don't worship them."
>
> Recognition and acknowledgment does not amount to worship.

true, but that isn't what you have done.

> "To oppose what you like and dislike,
> that is the malady of the mind."
>

 "You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
 the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
 is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
 whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters."

Love is . . .

> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>

######

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:00:41 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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HI

pr wrote:

> "Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:3fc2fbed$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...

> I have come to the conclusion that most people
> here do not know what psychosis means and
> have never come across a really psychotic person.
  I guess you are right
  but I also think  that a psychotic person  unless being a healer is 
his obsession or has a hidden agenda  will be not interested  in getting 
attuned , but all is possible


> Of course we can make general rules:
> Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
> --are drunk
   we all have been drink  sometimes.. someone taht is *normally drunk 
all teh time* I do not think taht is looking for  attunements
> --have used recreational drugs within the last 4 weeks
  ?
> --are under severe emotional stress   
> --are in immediate need of medical attention
> --are in shock

> --consider healing to be the devils work
the above one could be applicable in teh case of teh Baptist guy

> Do you think that these rules are utterly unreasonable?
I think that we are not  the  law so each person should  act according 
his personal criteria
> That their application should be the exception rather than
> the rule?
  it depends upon the personal  way of perceiving things.. we cannot 
make a rule  so cannot be an exception nor be infringed
> A simple yes/no answer suffices, although feel free to
> substantiate, explain or elaborate on your answer.
  Theo

######

From: "gingerobyn" <gingerobyn@yahoo.com>
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"Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:3fc2f995$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> HI
>
> pr wrote:
>
>
> > If you would read more and snip less you might have
> > come across what I wrote:
> > /quote
> > How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
> > - and may want to ask a few questions.
>
>   I read that and Hearthealer I guess answered to that also
>
> > Attunement means that you make a committment
> > to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
>   and this cannot be asked to a psychotic person as will probaly cheat
>   so what do you do? ask a psychic certificate of mental health before
> attuning  someone  ?
> > Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
> > As a serious committment it needs to be made
> > with a clear mind and with an understanding of
> > what that entails.
> > /end quote
> >
> > Does that answer your question?
>
>   If I was saying that most of us are  not very *normal* it is first of
> all a joke, but if you honestly take a distant look as an external not
> involved person, when we say that  we are* light workers*even if it
> works, most of the "silent majority" will have an ironic smile!
>   we must not loose the evidence of reality
>   In matter of fact  most of us even if attuned and practice Reiki ,by
> their attitude here and from what I read are not really very convinced
> of what they do !, many believe but still  strongly wish  scientific
> evidence .. we already discussed about and all is linked
>   have a nice day
>   Loave and light
>   Theo
>
> > Namu Amida Butsu
> > Peter Reber
> > "Life knows its needs"
> >
hey theo, this isn't related to the topic, but your ability to express
yourself in english seems to be getting better. (not that you ever had a
problem expressing yourself--it wasn't meant as a backhanded compliment!
just an observation/opinion)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:00:21 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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HI Gingerobyin

gingerobyn wrote:

> "Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:3fc2f995$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...

> 
> hey theo, this isn't related to the topic, but your ability to express
> yourself in english seems to be getting better. (not that you ever had a
> problem expressing yourself--it wasn't meant as a backhanded compliment!
> just an observation/opinion)
  Thanks but you see with threads we start in a point and we shift 
little by little on others  argumentes it is very hard to stay OnT
  so one comes in right in the middle of the discussion and  probably 
what sais is  OffT according teh original thread
  theo

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:27:18 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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HI
pr wrote:

> "Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:3fc2fc61$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> 
>>   Coming out!
>>you see Psychotic are gifted in fooling people:-!
> 
> 
> I know that this is probably a joke, but I think it also
> gives an indication of what people might belief.
  well it is know that  insane never see themselves as insane..

> Maybe the dictionary definition may help:
> psychosis=severe mental derangement involving the
> whole personality.

   when we start  knowing people or digging a little bit , paying 
attention  to what they say or the way they act  more closely after a 
while we realize some strange behaviour,some *glitches*
  I realize in my office that each person has tehse behavioural glitches 
  or reactions, or at least  a little side  attitudes but in the overall 
   the office works  normally ..
  I always had this feeling about people  and I start thinking that 
probably them are the  norm and I AM out of the norm  even if I realize 
that I have  myself too my *glitches"

> of the psychotic person. Such interaction is unlikely to be
> easy, pleasant, rational or logical. While there may indeed
> be lucid moments they are usually of short duration.
  maybe is that, the reality ,short moment of awakening and most of the 
time we all live in*our psychotic  world* more or less deeply .. so 
maybe we are all psychotic to different degrees ..
  I had a very bad night  I woke up very very  early and had all my 
monsters , fears from ID  soaring up to the surface of my conscious 
and I do not know how to  fight or better  transmute their  destructive 
  energy  into a positive action.. I feel being grinded ,I feel like to 
be standing on a   rock , that is splitting little by little and the 
surface under my feet  is getting smaller and smaller , and there is the 
void  around ..
  I start doing yoga  since one week and I am wondering if it has
something to do with it.
  anyway
have a nice day
  Theo

> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
> 
> 
>>Nadie Niemand wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:37:08 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>...Garry isprobably the only normal one here...
>>>
>>>
>>>Boy, have I got Theo fooled!  ;-)
>>>
>>>Garry
>>>
>>
> 
> 

######

From: "Deb" <debra@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:56:42 -0800
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"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fc3c341.0@news1.mweb.co.za...

>
> Of course we can make general rules:
> Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
> --are drunk

Have you ever had a drunk ask to be attuned?  I would think they
would have other things on their agenda.


> --have used recreational drugs within the last 4 weeks

I'm not sure what you are considering 'recreational drugs'.  I have
a friend who considers coffee and sugar to be in that catagory
because they can change a persons energy levels.


> --are under severe emotional stress

Again, would this person ask for attunement?


> --are in immediate need of medical attention
> --are in shock

Could these people ask for attunement?  What would be the process of
attuning one who is not conscious?  What would be a reason to even
consider it?


> --consider healing to be the devils work

Except for people like Theo's Baptist acquaintance, who are trying
to impress or please someone, most people of this belief wouldn't
ask.  Theo's example was probably lying to himself about his beliefs
at the time of attunement.  How could you know (especially within a
group setting) that he wasn't yet clear of his childhood biases?

When  I attended a group class and attunement for level 1, there was
a level 1 guy there who was getting a 'review' before taking the
level 2 class the next day.  He didn't think I should be attuned or
(especially) allowed to practice hand positions on him because I
smoke tobacco.

My teacher did not share his view but did keep him at the opposite
end of the room from me.  If she had not,  I probably would have
left in disgust at his attitude and formed some pretty strong biases
of my own about Reiki.

Your rules are your rules.  They apparently work for you.  If you
were to say "these are the RULES and must be strictly followed"  I'd
have to question whether you have the right to make up my rules....

Maybe we're all different and have differing outlooks and
experiences because we all have a different role to fill in this
'its all ONE' ness.

Deb
--
(in Oregon, the pacific northWET)  ;>

>
> Do you think that these rules are utterly unreasonable?
> That their application should be the exception rather than
> the rule?
> A simple yes/no answer suffices, although feel free to
> substantiate, explain or elaborate on your answer.
>
> --
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>
>
>

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:31:08 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Deb wrote:

HI Deb
> Except for people like Theo's Baptist acquaintance, who are trying
> to impress or please someone, most people of this belief wouldn't
> ask.  Theo's example was probably lying to himself about his beliefs
> at the time of attunement.  How could you know (especially within a
> group setting) that he wasn't yet clear of his childhood biases?

  It was and is not a friend of mine someone Mentioned a him here about 
this brillant person  that  had  a story about Reiki I just mentioned 
what others  have said :-)
  Theo

> Deb
> --
> (in Oregon, the pacific northWET)  ;>
> 
>>Do you think that these rules are utterly unreasonable?
>>That their application should be the exception rather than
>>the rule?
>>A simple yes/no answer suffices, although feel free to
>>substantiate, explain or elaborate on your answer.
>>
>>--
>>Namu Amida Butsu
>>Peter Reber
>>"Life knows its needs"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 

######

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pr wrote:
> 
> "Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:3fc2fc61$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> >    Coming out!
> > you see Psychotic are gifted in fooling people:-!
> 
> I know that this is probably a joke, but I think it also
> gives an indication of what people might belief.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that most people
> here do not know what psychosis means and
> have never come across a really psychotic person.
> 
> Maybe the dictionary definition may help:
> psychosis=severe mental derangement involving the
> whole personality.
> 
> From this you can take that there is absolutely no
> way that they can possibly fool people because it is
> so self-evident that the person has some kind of
> problem.
> Psychosis is not being neurotic nor is it schizophrenia.
> Psychosis is a severe mental problem which makes
> it virtually impossible to reach the person and thus
> precludes almost any interaction, except on the terms
> of the psychotic person. Such interaction is unlikely to be
> easy, pleasant, rational or logical. While there may indeed
> be lucid moments they are usually of short duration.

But aren't there different degrees of psychosis? I recall hearing about
people who have `psychotic episodes', which would indicate it's not a
full time thing for some and that they could seem `normal' when they're
not in one of their psychotic periods.

sue

######

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pr wrote:
> 
> "Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:3fc2fbed$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> > HI Arthealer
> >   I agee with your statemenets  and after all  using a common saying
> >
> >   What are we to judge what is normal ?
> >   What is normal?
> >   Who is Normal?
> > and in the very deep we talk about love and compassion.. but we
> > discriminate to give attunement to a person taht we judge *diffeent"from
> > teh normn
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that most people
> here do not know what psychosis means and
> have never come across a really psychotic person.
> 
> Maybe the dictionary definition may help:
> psychosis=severe mental derangement involving the
> whole personality.
> 
> Psychosis is not being neurotic nor is it schizophrenia.
> Psychosis is a severe mental problem and if a person
> is in the grip of psychosis you will have no doubt that
> that they are somehow not normal at that time.
> 
> >   and this is a non sense
> 
> Let me make another thing clear. What I am judging
> is not the person but their behaviour. That such behaviour
> may be involuntary is besides the point. Actions must
> be appropriate to the task one wants to achieve and
> appropriate to the job at hand.
> 
> >   that it might rise problems I guess, but I also guess that it might
> > ,but it is  up to the skill  of the master to feel  how to proceed in
> > such circumstances we cannot  try to make a general rule
> 
> Of course we can make general rules:
> Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
> --are drunk
> --have used recreational drugs within the last 4 weeks
> --are under severe emotional stress
> --are in immediate need of medical attention
> --are in shock
> --consider healing to be the devils work
> 
> Do you think that these rules are utterly unreasonable?
> That their application should be the exception rather than
> the rule?
> A simple yes/no answer suffices, although feel free to
> substantiate, explain or elaborate on your answer.

I think these are rules that work for you. In the above examples, I
doubt if some of the people who even ask for attunement. For myself, I
might give attunements to someone who's still in the early stages of
drug withdrawal (within that 4 week time period) to help ease their
physical symptoms, and perhaps their mental/emotional ones as well. I
think the parameters that we use to decide whom to attune or not are
personal, and that there are no `carved in stone' rules for *everyone*.

sue

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:27:18 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>  I had a very bad night  I woke up very very  early and had all my 
>monsters , fears from ID  soaring up to the surface of my conscious 
>and I do not know how to  fight or better  transmute their  destructive 
>  energy  into a positive action.. I feel being grinded ,I feel like to 
>be standing on a   rock , that is splitting little by little and the 
>surface under my feet  is getting smaller and smaller , and there is the 
>void  around ..
>  I start doing yoga  since one week and I am wondering if it has
>something to do with it.

Perhaps you are feeling ungrounded for some reason, or that you have
no place to stand? Perhaps a symbolic interpretation of the dream is
in order?

Love and Light,

Garry

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:56:42 -0800, "Deb" <debra@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
>news:3fc3c341.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
>>
>> Of course we can make general rules:
>> Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
>> --are drunk
>
>Have you ever had a drunk ask to be attuned?  I would think they
>would have other things on their agenda.

Yes and yes. After a holiday gathering at my 2nd degree teacher's
house one time, I was waiting for everyone else to leave so I could
have a discussion with her after I had gotten my 3rd degree training
elsewhere (she wanted to charge me $1000). Finally everyone left
except a Reiki master friend of my teacher's. Everyone had been
drinking wine except me, because I knew I would have to drive home
afterwards. Anyways, in the course of discussing my reasons for going
elsewhere for 3rd degree, I mentioned that my 3rd degree teacher had
also attuned me to Seichim. My 2nd degree teacher insisted, rather
stridently, that I attune her and her friend to Seichim, immediately.
As she was my teacher, in spite of all my misgivings and lack of
confidence (I took 3rd degree training via a distance course, and I
had not yet had a chance to actually perform an attunement on anyone
in person) I did as she asked. As it turned out, this was the alcohol
talking. She wanted to maintain her "superiority" over me, not wanting
me to have something she didn't, and she wanted to catch me out making
a mistake in some way or being unable to perform, etc. When it was
over, she started in to say that she didn't feel a thing, but her
friend spoke up and said it was a very powerful attunement and thanked
me for sharing, so she couldn't say much after that except a grumbling
admission that well, maybe she felt something. The next day, after my
teacher had sobered up, she apologized for the whole incident and felt
very badly about it. 

So, I *could* have said, "I don't attune drunks", but as it turns out,
because I *did* attune a couple of drunks, the whole incident was
instructive all the way around. My teacher learned the lessons she
needed to learn, I learned that I could indeed pass an attunement, and
her friend got to experience a modality that was new to him.

Moral of the story:   Never say never.  ;-)

Love and Light,

Garry

######

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"Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:3fc2fbed$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> HI Arthealer
>   I agee with your statemenets  and after all  using a common saying
>
>   What are we to judge what is normal ?
>   What is normal?
>   Who is Normal?

    I'm right with you Theo. Too much emphasis on what is "ready" to be
attuned and what is not. If a person comes to you wanting attunement. . . .i
say attune them.

Love is. . .

> and in the very deep we talk about love and compassion.. but we
> discriminate to give attunement to a person taht we judge *diffeent"from
> teh normn
>   and this is a non sense
>   that it might rise problems I guess, but I also guess that it might
> ,but it is  up to the skill  of the master to feel  how to proceed in
> such circumstances we cannot  try to make a general rule
>   Love an dlight
>   Theo
>
> arthealer wrote:
>
>

######

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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"Nadie Niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
news:3fc4a3bd.2640159@news.west.earthlink.net...

 Thanks garry for this. . . .perfect example of how it all works for the
best.


> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:56:42 -0800, "Deb" <debra@teleport.com> wrote:
> >
> >"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> >news:3fc3c341.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
> >
> >>
> >> Of course we can make general rules:
> >> Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
> >> --are drunk
> >
> >Have you ever had a drunk ask to be attuned?  I would think they
> >would have other things on their agenda.
>
> Yes and yes. After a holiday gathering at my 2nd degree teacher's
> house one time, I was waiting for everyone else to leave so I could
> have a discussion with her after I had gotten my 3rd degree training
> elsewhere (she wanted to charge me $1000). Finally everyone left
> except a Reiki master friend of my teacher's. Everyone had been
> drinking wine except me, because I knew I would have to drive home
> afterwards. Anyways, in the course of discussing my reasons for going
> elsewhere for 3rd degree, I mentioned that my 3rd degree teacher had
> also attuned me to Seichim. My 2nd degree teacher insisted, rather
> stridently, that I attune her and her friend to Seichim, immediately.
> As she was my teacher, in spite of all my misgivings and lack of
> confidence (I took 3rd degree training via a distance course, and I
> had not yet had a chance to actually perform an attunement on anyone
> in person) I did as she asked. As it turned out, this was the alcohol
> talking. She wanted to maintain her "superiority" over me, not wanting
> me to have something she didn't, and she wanted to catch me out making
> a mistake in some way or being unable to perform, etc. When it was
> over, she started in to say that she didn't feel a thing, but her
> friend spoke up and said it was a very powerful attunement and thanked
> me for sharing, so she couldn't say much after that except a grumbling
> admission that well, maybe she felt something. The next day, after my
> teacher had sobered up, she apologized for the whole incident and felt
> very badly about it.
>
> So, I *could* have said, "I don't attune drunks", but as it turns out,
> because I *did* attune a couple of drunks, the whole incident was
> instructive all the way around. My teacher learned the lessons she
> needed to learn, I learned that I could indeed pass an attunement, and
> her friend got to experience a modality that was new to him.
>
> Moral of the story:   Never say never.  ;-)
>
> Love and Light,
>
> Garry
>

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:35:13 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Nadie Niemand wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 08:27:18 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:


>> I had a very bad night  I woke up very very  early and had all my 
>>monsters , fears from ID  soaring up to the surface of my conscious 
>>and I do not know how to  fight or better  transmute their  destructive 
>> energy  into a positive action.. I feel being grinded ,I feel like to 
>>be standing on a   rock , that is splitting little by little and the 
>>surface under my feet  is getting smaller and smaller , and there is the 
>>void  around ..
>> I start doing yoga  since one week and I am wondering if it has
>>something to do with it.
> 
> 
> Perhaps you are feeling ungrounded for some reason, or that you have
> no place to stand? Perhaps a symbolic interpretation of the dream is
> in order?
  Hi Garry  well I am in some troubles ( work and family) and I do not 
know how to solve them ..
there is no solution  anyway
so I have to digest it and it will takes sometimes , I made no symbolic 
dreams

just wake up and start milling black :-) as we say
  Thanks for your concern anyway
  Love and light
  Theo

> Love and Light,
> 
> Garry
> 

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:35:13 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>  Hi Garry  well I am in some troubles ( work and family) and I do not 
>know how to solve them ..
>there is no solution  anyway
>so I have to digest it and it will takes sometimes , I made no symbolic 
>dreams

Sounds like your dream symbolized your situation very accurately! :-)

>just wake up and start milling black :-) as we say

Now there's a vivid expression! Thanks for sharing!

And ROTW, of course, my friend!

Love and Light,

Garry

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:28:13 GMT, "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com>
wrote:
>
>"Nadie Niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
>news:3fc4a3bd.2640159@news.west.earthlink.net...
>
> Thanks garry for this. . . .perfect example of how it all works for the
>best.

Funny how it always does, doesn't it?  As it says in the Hua Hu Ching
after speaking of the usefulness of harmonizing, avoiding extremes,
maintaining balance, etc: 

"...But forget about understanding and harmonizing and making all
things one. The universe is already a harmonious oneness; just realize
it..."

Love and Light,

Garry

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:34:22 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Hi It was not a dream, I decribed a feeling  I have
  Thanks for sending Reiki
  I have to climb up the hill again .. how ...I wonder !:-) I need a 
booster!
  Theo

Nadie Niemand wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:35:13 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Hi Garry  well I am in some troubles ( work and family) and I do not 
>>know how to solve them ..
>>there is no solution  anyway
>>so I have to digest it and it will takes sometimes , I made no symbolic 
>>dreams
> 
> 
> Sounds like your dream symbolized your situation very accurately! :-)
> 
> 
>>just wake up and start milling black :-) as we say
> 
> 
> Now there's a vivid expression! Thanks for sharing!
> 
> And ROTW, of course, my friend!
> 
> Love and Light,
> 
> Garry
> 

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:35:00 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
Reply-To:  byjoke@bluewin.ch
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Hi Garry
   what you described is a limit situation , bot persons were already 
attuned  and mainly "knew" what they were asking about ..
it is not like attuning a street corner drunkard  ....admit it ..
  I am always very surprised how these*masters* can be sometimes so 
human so mean  let's say the word she   openly declared she disliked 
the possibility you might be superior to her , second over  drink and 
smoke it is something  that I cannot admit with people  supposed to be 
**moral  exemples** (I make en exception for sex of course it is far too 
imprtant for mental balance :-))
Theo the Ikonoclast

Nadie Niemand wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:56:42 -0800, "Deb" <debra@teleport.com> wrote:
> 
>>"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
>>news:3fc3c341.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>>
>>
>>>Of course we can make general rules:
>>>Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
>>>--are drunk
>>
>>Have you ever had a drunk ask to be attuned?  I would think they
>>would have other things on their agenda.
> 
> 
> Yes and yes. After a holiday gathering at my 2nd degree teacher's
> house one time, I was waiting for everyone else to leave so I could
> have a discussion with her after I had gotten my 3rd degree training
> elsewhere (she wanted to charge me $1000). Finally everyone left
> except a Reiki master friend of my teacher's. Everyone had been
> drinking wine except me, because I knew I would have to drive home
> afterwards. Anyways, in the course of discussing my reasons for going
> elsewhere for 3rd degree, I mentioned that my 3rd degree teacher had
> also attuned me to Seichim. My 2nd degree teacher insisted, rather
> stridently, that I attune her and her friend to Seichim, immediately.
> As she was my teacher, in spite of all my misgivings and lack of
> confidence (I took 3rd degree training via a distance course, and I
> had not yet had a chance to actually perform an attunement on anyone
> in person) I did as she asked. As it turned out, this was the alcohol
> talking. She wanted to maintain her "superiority" over me, not wanting
> me to have something she didn't, and she wanted to catch me out making
> a mistake in some way or being unable to perform, etc. When it was
> over, she started in to say that she didn't feel a thing, but her
> friend spoke up and said it was a very powerful attunement and thanked
> me for sharing, so she couldn't say much after that except a grumbling
> admission that well, maybe she felt something. The next day, after my
> teacher had sobered up, she apologized for the whole incident and felt
> very badly about it. 
> 
> So, I *could* have said, "I don't attune drunks", but as it turns out,
> because I *did* attune a couple of drunks, the whole incident was
> instructive all the way around. My teacher learned the lessons she
> needed to learn, I learned that I could indeed pass an attunement, and
> her friend got to experience a modality that was new to him.
> 
> Moral of the story:   Never say never.  ;-)
> 
> Love and Light,
> 
> Garry
> 

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.org.net
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:34:22 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>Hi It was not a dream, I decribed a feeling  I have

Ah! Mea culpa! Poetic license, then. An artist in our midst!  :-)

>  Thanks for sending Reiki
>  I have to climb up the hill again .. how ...I wonder !:-) I need a 
>booster!

Up you go!

Love and Light,

Garry

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:29:10 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
Reply-To:  byjoke@bluewin.ch
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com> <3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3fc24fc3$1_2@news.bluewin.ch> <3fc27e56.606959@news.west.earthlink.net> <3fc2fc61$1_3@news.bluewin.ch> <3fc3c33f.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3fc455be_3@news.bluewin.ch> <3fc4a29a.2349370@news.west.earthlink.net> <3fc4abf7$1_1@news.bluewin.ch> <3fc4adb1.5188674@news.west.earthlink.net> <3fc4c7e3$1_1@news.bluewin.ch> <3fc4fdb3.380946@news.west.earthlink.net>
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11237



Nadie Niemand wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:34:22 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi It was not a dream, I decribed a feeling  I have
> 
> 
> Ah! Mea culpa! Poetic license, then. An artist in our midst!  :-)
   Garry  8-) I  think about myself as "an artist"
  I did oil  painting
  I did jewellery
I am quite attracted with furniture and decocration and I think I start 
again painting  on a more professional way  wd Willing!

   Queen Liz is allowing gay marriages TV is sayig right now !


>> Thanks for sending Reiki
>> I have to climb up the hill again .. how ...I wonder !:-) I need a 
>>booster!
> 
> 
> Up you go!
   tiens moi les pouces!( hold my thumbs )
Theo

######

From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.org.net
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:35:00 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:

>Hi Garry
>   what you described is a limit situation , bot persons were already 
>attuned  and mainly "knew" what they were asking about ..
>it is not like attuning a street corner drunkard  ....admit it ..

This much is true. But if a street corner drunkard asked me to attune
him/her, I would surely consider it, if we were in a place where I
thought people wouldn't disturb us. Otherwise I would suggest we
arrange for another time and place. It seems unlikely, though, that a
street corner drunkard would be interested in *asking* for an
attunement. I figure that if someone has the presence of mind to ask
for an attunement, there could be good reason, beyond all the surface
"reasons" we usually think in terms of.

>  I am always very surprised how these*masters* can be sometimes so 
>human so mean  let's say the word she   openly declared she disliked 

Surprised that humans are human? Theo, you've been around the block
too many times for that!  :-)

>the possibility you might be superior to her , second over  drink and 
>smoke it is something  that I cannot admit with people  supposed to be 
>**moral  exemples** (I make en exception for sex of course it is far too 
>imprtant for mental balance :-))

I'm with you (so to speak <g>) 100% on that one! 

>Theo the Ikonoclast

Garry, the Superglue for broken icons

######

From: stuv@cix.co.uk (Stuart Vernon)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
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(Theo) wrote:

> Hi Garry  well I am in some troubles ( work and family) and I do not 
> know how to solve them ..
> there is no solution  anyway
> so I have to digest it and it will takes sometimes , I made no symbolic 
> dreams

I don't know if this is egg-sucking-granny time, but you *do* know
that you can send Reiki to a relationship, situation or anything that
has an energy dynamic and not just flesh and blood?

ROTW anyways ... :)

Stuart

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:46:31 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Hi Garry

Nadie Niemand wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 19:35:00 +0100, Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi Garry
>>  what you described is a limit situation , bot persons were already 
>>attuned  and mainly "knew" what they were asking about ..
>>it is not like attuning a street corner drunkard  ....admit it ..
> 
> 
> This much is true. But if a street corner drunkard asked me to attune
> him/her, I would surely consider it, if we were in a place where I
> thought people wouldn't disturb us. 
  I guess we are talking  about quite impossible things * normally* a 
drunkahrad does not think to get attuned it is  a very surrealistic 
situation we are imagining , you  run into l in a billion possibility 
with your master
  so do not ask for more :-)


>Otherwise I would suggest we
> arrange for another time and place. 
  yes it is your style   very gentleman with agood senseof timing
>It seems unlikely, 
  a lot indeed !
>though, that a
> street corner drunkard would be interested in *asking* for an
> attunement. I figure that if someone has the presence of mind to ask
> for an attunement, there could be good reason, beyond all the surface
> "reasons" we usually think in terms of.

  I fully agree with you !


> Surprised that humans are human? Theo, you've been around the block
> too many times for that!  :-)
  but it  still strikes me I put them on a pedestal and than is 
gotterdammerung!

>>the possibility you might be superior to her , second over  drink and 
>>smoke it is something  that I cannot admit with people  supposed to be 
>>**moral  exemples** (I make en exception for sex of course it is far too 
>>imprtant for mental balance :-))

> I'm with you (so to speak <g>) 100% on that one! 
   don't have a potty mind! <G>

>>Theo the Ikonoclast
> 
> 
> ""Garry ® TM "", the Superglue for broken icons

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:57:07 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11244

HI Stuart
  Thanks for your help

Said  that  believe it or not I never think to apply Reiki do that!:-)
  maybe I am scareed that It could get worse ! you Know  often Reiki 
does what Reiki thinks  not what  one wish Reiki shouldl do
  I really need a cosmic huge whirl of energy to chanage such a stubborn 
mind & situation
  "getting  silly goats with age is the natural evolution from young 
trolls   ,  each  age has his own privileges ..:-)
  Theo

Stuart Vernon wrote:

> (Theo) wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi Garry  well I am in some troubles ( work and family) and I do not 
>>know how to solve them ..
>>there is no solution  anyway
>>so I have to digest it and it will takes sometimes , I made no symbolic 
>>dreams
> 
> 
> I don't know if this is egg-sucking-granny time, but you *do* know
> that you can send Reiki to a relationship, situation or anything that
> has an energy dynamic and not just flesh and blood?
> 
> ROTW anyways ... :)
> 
> Stuart
> 

######

From: stuv@cix.co.uk (Stuart Vernon)
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:44 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
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(Theo) wrote:

> Said  that  believe it or not I never think to apply Reiki do that!:-)
> maybe I am scareed that It could get worse ! you Know  often Reiki 
> does what Reiki thinks  not what  one wish Reiki shouldl do

Indeed ...

FWIW, my RM suggested sending along the lines of:

"To the Perfect Resolution of xxxxxxx, be it for the Highest Good"

For which, as you rightly say, the outcome is not necessarily what 
you think you might want, but this a commitment made (explicitly
or implicitly) when you started on the Reiki path, no?

Love it ... :)

Stuart

######

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:32:52 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
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Stuart Vernon wrote:

> (Theo) wrote:
> 
> 
>>Said  that  believe it or not I never think to apply Reiki do that!:-)
>>maybe I am scareed that It could get worse ! you Know  often Reiki 
>>does what Reiki thinks  not what  one wish Reiki shouldl do
> 
> 
> Indeed ...
> 
> FWIW, my RM suggested sending along the lines of:
> 
> "To the Perfect Resolution of xxxxxxx, be it for the Highest Good"
> 
> For which, as you rightly say, the outcome is not necessarily what 
> you think you might want, but this a commitment made (explicitly
> or implicitly) when you started on the Reiki path, no?
   You are so logic how could I contraddict you? :-)
  the fact is that   Reiki sometimes bounces back  in unexpected 
directions than the  *hoped* ones ,makes me think sometimes to the 
Devil's promises..    that are always  kept but skewed at the  same 
time, so I prefer not to interfere :-), I mean use Reiki for my 
personal goals


> Love it ... :)
   or leave it! :-)
  Theo

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"Deb" <debra@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:bq1t1s$1u6lgu$1@ID-120246.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> news:3fc3c341.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> >
> > Of course we can make general rules:
> > Off the top of my head, do not attune people who
> > --are drunk
>
> Have you ever had a drunk ask to be attuned?  I would think they
> would have other things on their agenda.

maybe I should add "or have a hangover"

> > --have used recreational drugs within the last 4 weeks
>
> I'm not sure what you are considering 'recreational drugs'.  I have
> a friend who considers coffee and sugar to be in that catagory
> because they can change a persons energy levels.

ecstacy, hashish, cocaine, heroin, glue, abuse of cold medicines,
excessive non-prescription use of headache tablets, etc.
IOW, addiction to prescription and non-prescription drugs with
strong effects on a persons consciousness.

To pre-empt the next question "How would you know?"
The answer is "you don't", but you ask questions or
state your rules in a pre-workshop questionnaire or
"induction". Anybody can lie, but they will know that
they lied and will thus know where the responsibility
might lie when the results are not quite as expected.

> > --are under severe emotional stress
>
> Again, would this person ask for attunement?

People book for workshops. They do all kind of things,
or all kind of things happen to them, in the days or hours
before. They may feel an obligation to be there, an
obligation to "perform", no matter what. They have set
the time aside, they planned for it, they want it NOW.

> > --are in immediate need of medical attention
> > --are in shock
>
> Could these people ask for attunement?  What would be the process of
> attuning one who is not conscious?  What would be a reason to even
> consider it?

Who said that they are not conscious? How about
something as simple as a bee sting and the person
is allergic, or a snake bite from a suspected poisonous
snake while walking in the garden after luch? Neither
may result in immediate unconsciousness. Would they
ask for attunement?
They may say "Don't worry, I will be fine!"

> Your rules are your rules.  They apparently work for you.  If you
> were to say "these are the RULES and must be strictly followed"  I'd
> have to question whether you have the right to make up my rules....

My rules are my rules. Your rules are your rules.
Saying "there are no rules" is also a rule. To get
away from rules is as impossible as showing
"no behaviour". You always show behaviour even
if you do nothing, you always communicate
even if you say nothing, and there are always rules
even if you say there aren't any.
My point was to show that we can easily make
general rules which can serve as guidance. Theo
seemed to imply that we cannot make general rules
because we do not know what normality is. We
certainly know what *statistical* normality is, so
we are not quite clueless. Admittedly, this is often
a measurement which ignores our being human.
How come it is so difficult for many people to simply
acknowledge that there are rules? That many, if not
most, are not even of our making? Go on insisting
that 2+2=5 and see how long it takes for the men
in white coats and a padded van to appear.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com> <3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <bb669901a9bfb9b4888d511b128690d2@news.teranews.com> <3fc38cf7.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <17088cb742a405532cae44d32e8f2abb@news.teranews.com>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11255


"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:17088cb742a405532cae44d32e8f2abb@news.teranews.com...
>
> "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> news:3fc38cf7.0@news1.mweb.co.za...

> > A remote family member jumped over a gate recently.
> > His ring got hooked and he tore (!) his finger off.
> > Assuming you were there at the time would you
> > just give him reiki or would you take him to hospital
> > as quickly as possible?
>
>   i would not make this discission for another.

So you would not give him a chance to have his
finger reattached, for cosmetic appearance or
maybe regain partial or full functionality?
I can only assume that you think that a person
writhing in pain, possibly on the verge of passing
out, is in a better position to make such a decision
than someone who has a clear mind, or at least
as clear as this is possible considering the situation.
You would watch a person bleeding to death while
you give reiki and wait for someone else to decide
what else to do? Like calling 911, or packing the
finger on ice and drive to an emergency clinic?
You would not make a decisions for another
*not even realizing* that this means that in this
case you have already made a decision for the
other.

You have revealed yourself to be a callous, uncaring
and uncompassionate human being intent on
making a point and being prepared to let other people
suffer in the process.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

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From: "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com> <3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <bb669901a9bfb9b4888d511b128690d2@news.teranews.com> <3fc38cf7.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <17088cb742a405532cae44d32e8f2abb@news.teranews.com> <3fc53694.0@news1.mweb.co.za>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11258


"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:3fc53694.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:17088cb742a405532cae44d32e8f2abb@news.teranews.com...
> >
> > "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:3fc38cf7.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> > > A remote family member jumped over a gate recently.
> > > His ring got hooked and he tore (!) his finger off.
> > > Assuming you were there at the time would you
> > > just give him reiki or would you take him to hospital
> > > as quickly as possible?
> >
> >   i would not make this discission for another.
>
> So you would not give him a chance to have his
> finger reattached, for cosmetic appearance or
> maybe regain partial or full functionality?
> I can only assume that you think that a person
> writhing in pain, possibly on the verge of passing
> out, is in a better position to make such a decision
> than someone who has a clear mind, or at least
> as clear as this is possible considering the situation.
> You would watch a person bleeding to death while
> you give reiki and wait for someone else to decide
> what else to do? Like calling 911, or packing the
> finger on ice and drive to an emergency clinic?
> You would not make a decisions for another
> *not even realizing* that this means that in this
> case you have already made a decision for the
> other.
>
> You have revealed yourself to be a callous, uncaring
> and uncompassionate human being intent on
> making a point and being prepared to let other people
> suffer in the process.
>

   Peter,
   having been away (out of town) for a day and my mind on other things has
given me a chance to regroup a bit. When i got home tonight i reread our
posts and this one of course and realized how far this has gone to a place i
don't really want to be with you or anyone here posting. i realize that i
probably brought a lot of it on myself and appologize to you for letting it
get out of hand.
When i said "i would not make this desision for another" i meant that i
realize what a commitment this is not to use allopathic medicine and that i
cannot make this choice to heal without allopathic med. for another person.
. . ..so, i would indeed take that person to the hospital.. .. i am not the
monster you believe me to be.  . . nor are you the one i made you out to be.
There are a few things left unsaid i would like to discuss with you in a few
days ( after thanksgiving) if you want to continue.

respectfully,
kevin


> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

######

From: "gingerobyn" <gingerobyn@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com> <3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3fc24fc3$1_2@news.bluewin.ch> <3fc2ce7b.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3fc2f995$1_3@news.bluewin.ch> <GUUwb.4931$nM6.675@nwrdny01.gnilink.net> <3fc44f6d_3@news.bluewin.ch>
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11265

i didnt mean that *you* were off topic, i meant that *my comment* was off
topic. yes the topic gets redirected all the time, but i meant that mine was
*completely* off topic because it was just my opinion about your english
becoming more expressive!

i think there may be an ironic communication breakdown here. my own english
isn't so good!

"Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:3fc44f6d_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> HI Gingerobyin
>
> gingerobyn wrote:
>
> > "Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> > news:3fc2f995$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
>
> >
> > hey theo, this isn't related to the topic, but your ability to express
> > yourself in english seems to be getting better. (not that you ever had a
> > problem expressing yourself--it wasn't meant as a backhanded compliment!
> > just an observation/opinion)
>   Thanks but you see with threads we start in a point and we shift
> little by little on others  argumentes it is very hard to stay OnT
>   so one comes in right in the middle of the discussion and  probably
> what sais is  OffT according teh original thread
>   theo
>

######

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 08:39:26 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
Reply-To:  byjoke@bluewin.ch
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11270



pr wrote:


> most, are not even of our making? Go on insisting
> that 2+2=5 and see how long it takes for the men
> in white coats and a padded van to appear.

  it dependsin  which universe you are demonstrating it :-)
  Listen
  if here in Europe
  I run  into someone  in the street that has an accident and i try to 
give  Reiki to help teh person and I insist on his efficacity  .. the 
white coats will take me too away ,but into another  direction.. the 
mental asylum
  do not think that Giving Reiki is something everywhere accepted 
without mental reserves  it can look  as silly as saying 2+2 = 5 but 
Reiki it works  so 2+2 =5 might be right as well !
  Cheer up
  Theo

> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
> 
> 
> 

######

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 09:58:03 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
Reply-To:  byjoke@bluewin.ch
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Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11275

Ginger
  these treads where people is   interchanging arguments to be right 
after a while become totally offtopic :-)  as we get lost in a maze
  Theo

gingerobyn wrote:

> i didnt mean that *you* were off topic, i meant that *my comment* was off
> topic. yes the topic gets redirected all the time, but i meant that mine was
> *completely* off topic because it was just my opinion about your english
> becoming more expressive!
> 
> i think there may be an ironic communication breakdown here. my own english
> isn't so good!

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com> <3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <bb669901a9bfb9b4888d511b128690d2@news.teranews.com> <3fc2fbed$1_3@news.bluewin.ch> <3fc3c341.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <bq1t1s$1u6lgu$1@ID-120246.news.uni-berlin.de> <3fc53692.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3fc5aa11$1_1@news.bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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"Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
news:3fc5aa11$1_1@news.bluewin.ch...

> so 2+2 =5 might be right as well !

Don't know, but 2+2=22 looks definitely right
with a bit of lateral thinking.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

From: "pr" <shin@netactive.co.za>
Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
References: <3fbbfe52$0$31392$edd6591c@news.versatel.net> <3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com> <3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com> <3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com> <3fc23cf8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <bb669901a9bfb9b4888d511b128690d2@news.teranews.com> <3fc38cf7.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <17088cb742a405532cae44d32e8f2abb@news.teranews.com> <3fc53694.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <207bb9a2c793f549fe09a56c65b5d7e6@news.teranews.com>
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:11298


"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:207bb9a2c793f549fe09a56c65b5d7e6@news.teranews.com...

>    Peter,
>    having been away (out of town) for a day and my mind on other things
has
> given me a chance to regroup a bit. When i got home tonight i reread our
> posts and this one of course and realized how far this has gone to a place
i
> don't really want to be with you or anyone here posting. i realize that i
> probably brought a lot of it on myself and appologize to you for letting
it
> get out of hand.

Apology accepted and I must acknowledge that you have found
most graceful words here to express yourself. <Bowing>.

> When i said "i would not make this desision for another" i meant that i
> realize what a commitment this is not to use allopathic medicine and that
i
> cannot make this choice to heal without allopathic med. for another
person.
> . . ..so, i would indeed take that person to the hospital.. .. i am not
the
> monster you believe me to be.  . . nor are you the one i made you out to
be.

I thought that what you wrote would be rather
uncharacteristic of somebody involved with a healing
modality. Let me return to a position of respecting
you as a person involved in such a practice.

> There are a few things left unsaid i would like to discuss with you in a
few
> days ( after thanksgiving) if you want to continue.

Sure. No problem.

--
Namu Amida Butsu
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

######

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"Nadie Niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
news:3fc4af1b.5550760@news.west.earthlink.net...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 13:28:13 GMT, "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >"Nadie Niemand" <nobody@nowhere.org.net> wrote in message
> >news:3fc4a3bd.2640159@news.west.earthlink.net...
> >
> > Thanks garry for this. . . .perfect example of how it all works for the
> >best.
>
> Funny how it always does, doesn't it?  As it says in the Hua Hu Ching
> after speaking of the usefulness of harmonizing, avoiding extremes,
> maintaining balance, etc:
>
> "...But forget about understanding and harmonizing and making all
> things one. The universe is already a harmonious oneness; just realize
> it..."

Yes, yes yes!!!


>
> Love and Light,
>
> Garry
>

######

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:00:49 +0100
From: Theo <byjoke@bluewin.ch>
Reply-To:  byjoke@bluewin.ch
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Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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in our Einstenian universe positively  yes!
  Theo

pr wrote:

> "Theo" <byjoke@bluewin.ch> wrote in message
> news:3fc5aa11$1_1@news.bluewin.ch...
> 
> 
>>so 2+2 =5 might be right as well !
> 
> 
> Don't know, but 2+2=22 looks definitely right
> with a bit of lateral thinking.
> 
> --
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

######

From: dbellis <dbellis@rogers.com>
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Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki
Subject: Re: Attuning psychotic people
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The reiki attunement requires the person being attuned to committ to 
using reiki for a very good reason.
when one is attuned, he is opened to the frequencies of ki "energy" for 
healing. Once the attunement is done you cannot be UN attuned.  a 
commitment to use reiki will allow the person to grow and develop with 
this energy. on the other hand.. if they choose to ignore it and take it 
lightly,, NEGATIVE energies can find thier way into the now open 
chakras. it is for THAT reason above all that an atunee sincerely 
decides to be attuned.

David
Reiki Master

pr wrote:

> "arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
> news:ce037d2587070ed52e5a5ee968dbff87@news.teranews.com...
> 
>>"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
>>news:3fc02c15.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>>
>>>"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>>news:00b8f384dc77dbf300da46301f406b08@news.teranews.com...
>>>
>>>>"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
>>>>news:3fbf086a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>>>>
>>>>>"arthealer" <arthealer@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:f040e80fb2022b345767157dbc1dc39c@news.teranews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"pr" <shin@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:3fbd216a.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>i was talking about becoming attuned, not being treated.
>>>>That is funny, because i had a friend who was schizophrenic but on
>>>>medication,and functioned quite nicely, so when i think of psychotic i
>>>
>>>think
>>>
>>>>of him and he would have had no trouble becoming attuned.  Are you
>>
>>saying
>>
>>>>that becoming attuned has no value in healing?
>>>
>>>Attunement has great value in healing, but first
>>>things first.
>>
>>i have never been attuned. . .. do you fill out a form that askes you
>>questions in an attemp to assertain whether or not one has taken the
> 
> proper
> 
>>preliminary steps in life? how would theattuner know this? What are the
>>first things?
> 
> 
> A form asking questions such as "are you currently in
> therapy?" or "are you currently undergoing medical
> treatment?" or "do you have any chronic ailment?"
> could be a good idea. Why? Because people go to
> workshops and get absorbed in it. They forget their
> daily routine. When one of the participants is about
> to faint you do not want to stand there like an idiot
> but know that s/he is a diabetic and maybe ask
> when they have eaten last.
> First things first is very simple. Would you attune a
> person who is obviously intoxicated, drunk or full of
> recreational drugs? First things first would mean to tell
> him to go home and sober up.
> Would you attune a couple who had a major blow-out
> between themselves earlier in the day and are still
> shaken up badly?
> Would you attune a four year old (geniuses excepted)?
> Would you attune a mentally challenged person who
> is unable to grasp even the simplest concepts reiki
> involves?
> How would an attuner know? You look, observe, listen
> - and may want to ask a few questions.
> 
> Attunement means that you make a committment
> to yourself that you are going to **work with** reiki.
> Reiki 1 relates this directly to our personal sphere.
> As a serious committment it needs to be made
> with a clear mind and with an understanding of
> what that entails. None of the above people would
> fuflill this condition in the state they are in.
> 
> 
>>>If somebody breaks a leg you are not
>>>going to give reiki for weeks *because you believe
>>>that reiki knows where to go and what to do while
>>>the bone sets crooked*.
>>
>>  do you see what you are writing peter? a healer cannot afford the luxury
>>of such  negitive notions.
> 
> 
> What is negative in what I wrote?
> 
> 
>>  Pessimism is infectous. Do you suppose that the healing force you are
>>attempting to employ understands your 'non-belief'?   How about the person
>>being treated? More importantly, how about you??
> 
> 
> I don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> 
>>>You take the person to
>>>a doctor who will set the leg and take the necessary
>>>steps which will give the best chance for the leg to
>>>heal and return to best possible functionality.
>>>*Then* you may want to apply reiki to assist in the
>>>healing process.
>>>
>>
>>     Being that the above is just an example and i suppose most any
>>"serious" injury or illness could be innerchangable. . . . . .no peter,
>>*you* take the person to a doctor.
> 
> 
> Are you saying that doctors have no role to play anymore
> once somebody works with reiki?
> 
> 
>>>I wrote in the previous post that "they should not
>>>be *attuned* as long as they are psychotic or have
>>>a strong tendency to fall into a psychotic states."
>>>This clearly means, at least to me, that attunement may
>>>become a possibility once a person has reached a level of
>>>stability and social functionality. However, I would not
>>>proceed unless his/her psychiatrist or psychologist
>>>has given the go-ahead
>>
>>  being that a doctor would fully understand the healing power available
> 
> and
> 
>>know what is nessesary even more so than reiki itself.
> 
> 
> I would suggest that most doctors understand or understood
> at some time, maybe not fully, the healing powers in living
> things. Most are aware of their limitations. You may be of the
> opinion that their tools are limited, overused, sometimes
> inappropriate, but that is what they are working with. What
> most doctors do not have, or do not take, is time with their
> patients. In the government hospitals here, they have to see
> 60 patients a day.
> I would further say that doctors and medicine is as much
> an expression of reiki as any reiki practitioner. They may
> be ignorant of this and this may distort their way of practising.
> 
> 
>>>On the one hand, if something
>>>does go wrong they will most likely have to contend
>>>with the fall-out,
>>
>> yes, often times reiki manages to bungle the healing process.
> 
> 
> We are talking about psychotic people here.
> 
> 
>>>on the other hand, if things work out
>>>well there might be the possibility of co-operation.
>>
>> reiki is harmless enough when it isn't making things worse. . .. .
> 
> 
> What does that mean?
> 
> 
>>i suspect there was a time when ,amongst practitoners ,  reiki was
> 
> respected
> 
>>even as much as the allopathic profession itself.
> 
> 
> You would be surprised! But then with your antagonistic
> attitude towards western style health practitioners their
> response is predictable. To set yourself up against one
> of largest industries, next to arms manufacture and oil,
> is just stupid. It is a fight you cannot win, not even in
> your dreams. And do we really need more strive in this
> world? There are plenty of opportunities out there where
> we can practice reiki without stepping on other people's
> toes.
> 
> You are dismissive of the physical world and have elevated
> the "spiritual" above it. To me that is not spiritual at all. It
> is based on ignorance and ignorance is not good no matter
> whether it comes from wordly or spiritual quarters.
> 
> "If you wish to follow the path of the One Vehicle
> Have no prejudice against the six senses."
> 
> --
> Namu Amida Butsu
> Peter Reber
> "Life knows its needs"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>