From: "pr" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 06:47:58 +0200 Lines: 96 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: nld-dial-196-7-202-253.mweb.co.za Message-ID: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> X-Trace: 11 Oct 2003 06:56:40 +0200, nld-dial-196-7-202-253.mweb.co.za Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!uunet.co.za!news1.mweb.co.za!nld-dial-196-7-202-253.mweb.co.za Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9418 Nagarjuna wrote: "All Buddhas depend on two truths In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. The first is the wordly mundane truth, The second the truth of supreme meaning." If we exclude the Buddha himself, Nagarjuna is the most revered person in Buddhism. Every lineage of Mahayana Buddhism has him included. We should therefore consider his words carefully. His words are also of importance to all paths as they refer to how human perceptions of the world and themselves are shaped. What are the two truths, or if you like, what are the two worlds we live in? The first one is the world of language, "mere" words and labels. The second one is the world as it really is, without distinctions, without boundaries, in other words One. Language and words are exactly the opposite, making distinctions, e.g. saying this is an e-mail and not a letter on paper. From this it is clear that language can never fully describe the second, the real, world. It is a wolrd created by us, made up by us as we go along, and thus has no inherent, lasting reality. Let's take the word "letter" which the Germans would label "Brief". Why use two different words/labels for the same thing? Because we can just make it up and provided you can get sufficient people to agree, that is what it will be called. We know what a letter is, but the word "letter" is not the real thing, it does not produce an actual piece of paper with ink marks in front of you. It may produce an image of it your mind, but that is not the real thing either and without checking we do not even know whether a real letter actually exists. Language thus allows us to make things up and manipulate them as if they were real. For example, I could mail my imaginary letter in my imaginary mail to an imaginary recipient. I could even come to belief that the letter was indeed written and that I actually did send it to somebody. Something similar happens to the self, the *I*, where in our madness we have come to a general agreement that this *I* exists. Yes, it does have a functional value, it is easier to say "I am writing this e-mail" than "There is some activity by a human body, for the purpose of distinguishing it from other such human bodies labelled "X", in a place called "Y". But just as "letter" is not the real thing but just a place holder, so is the *I* not real. *I* is really just a nexus of some activity, some of which is or seems voluntary and others which are not. If you look at "your" situation carefully then you will see that there is no boundary between yourself and the world. There is really no "In here" and "Out there". You breathe, you take in food and expel waste products. You interact with other people, and the world in general, every day. There is no *I* apart from the world. In whatever way I look at it, the "in here" depends on the "out there", is inextricably linked. If that is the case how can there really be a "inside" and "outside"? We have fallen into the serious error to take the world of labels and words as real, thus believing even that *I* exist. This has the effect that the world becomes lopsided, is turned inside out and outside in and thus the need for projection arises. It gets distorted by my erroneous view and thus I am not able to see the real truth. To the degree that I know that the world of words and labels is made up, exists for our convenience only in order to communicate with other human beings, its distorting effect reduces and there arises the possibility of seeing the real truth. If we stay absorbed in our language constructs, belief that things are real which are not, we have no hope of ever moving beyond rhetoric and arguments. That is why the next verse from Nagarjuna reads: "If one is not able to know The distinction between the two truths One cannot know the true meaning Of the profound Buddha Dharma." -- Namu Amida Butsu Peter Reber "Life knows its needs" ###### From: Richard Bonk Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:47:43 +0100 Organization: FTEL Lines: 106 Message-ID: <3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk> References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: mungo.ftel.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news-out.ftel.co.uk 1066045663 7445 172.16.2.12 (13 Oct 2003 11:47:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@ftel.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:47:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!news-out.ftel.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9526 It's like with rain. Rain is coming from ocean and changes into individual drops. Each drop is unique. There are not two exactly same drops. But in the end they join back into the ocean and become one with ocan. Same with living beings. In this world they are separated from the supreme and therefore they are individual "I" but only until they again become part of the Supreme "I". Richard pr wrote: > > Nagarjuna wrote: > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > If we exclude the Buddha himself, Nagarjuna is the most > revered person in Buddhism. Every lineage of Mahayana > Buddhism has him included. We should therefore > consider his words carefully. His words are also of > importance to all paths as they refer to how human > perceptions of the world and themselves are shaped. > What are the two truths, or if you like, what are the > two worlds we live in? The first one is the world of > language, "mere" words and labels. The second one > is the world as it really is, without distinctions, > without boundaries, in other words One. > Language and words are exactly the opposite, > making distinctions, e.g. saying this is an e-mail and > not a letter on paper. From this it is clear that language > can never fully describe the second, the real, world. > It is a wolrd created by us, made up by us as we go > along, and thus has no inherent, lasting reality. > Let's take the word "letter" which the Germans would > label "Brief". Why use two different words/labels for > the same thing? Because we can just make it up > and provided you can get sufficient people to agree, > that is what it will be called. > We know what a letter is, but the word "letter" is > not the real thing, it does not produce an > actual piece of paper with ink marks in front > of you. It may produce an image of it your mind, > but that is not the real thing either and without > checking we do not even know whether a real letter > actually exists. Language thus allows us to make > things up and manipulate them as if they were > real. For example, I could mail my imaginary > letter in my imaginary mail to an imaginary > recipient. I could even come to belief that the > letter was indeed written and that I actually did > send it to somebody. > > Something similar happens to the self, the *I*, > where in our madness we have come to a general > agreement that this *I* exists. > Yes, it does have a functional value, it is easier > to say "I am writing this e-mail" than "There is > some activity by a human body, for the purpose > of distinguishing it from other such human bodies > labelled "X", in a place called "Y". > But just as "letter" is not the real thing but > just a place holder, so is the *I* not real. *I* is > really just a nexus of some activity, some of > which is or seems voluntary and others which > are not. If you look at "your" situation carefully > then you will see that there is no boundary > between yourself and the world. There is really > no "In here" and "Out there". You breathe, you > take in food and expel waste products. You > interact with other people, and the world in > general, every day. There is no *I* apart from > the world. In whatever way I look at it, the > "in here" depends on the "out there", is > inextricably linked. If that is the case how can > there really be a "inside" and "outside"? > > We have fallen into the serious error to take the > world of labels and words as real, thus believing > even that *I* exist. This has the effect that the > world becomes lopsided, is turned inside out and > outside in and thus the need for projection arises. > It gets distorted by my erroneous view and thus I > am not able to see the real truth. > To the degree that I know that the world of words > and labels is made up, exists for our convenience > only in order to communicate with other human > beings, its distorting effect reduces and there > arises the possibility of seeing the real truth. > If we stay absorbed in our language constructs, > belief that things are real which are not, > we have no hope of ever moving beyond rhetoric > and arguments. That is why the next verse from > Nagarjuna reads: > > "If one is not able to know > The distinction between the two truths > One cannot know the true meaning > Of the profound Buddha Dharma." > > -- > Namu Amida Butsu > Peter Reber > "Life knows its needs" ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:01:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1066186872 24.71.223.147 (Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:01:12 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 21:01:12 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9550 Hi Peter, Just got back into town so I missed the fun!! Some good stuff going on in the group this last while! Just a quick point of view and I am aware of the 'exhaustion' of the various topics! When I am faced with the perspective of the 'I' or 'self" I bring to mind a quote from the 'Katha Upanishad' (6oo B.C.) "Turn your attention round 180 degrees and attend to you the Looker, and you will find the Self. This is who you are at centre. Here in the centre you are not a 'thing'. You are the awake 'space' in which all things happen, in which all life unfolds. Yes, you are also a person, you have a name, a nationality, a birth day and a death day. But this is not your deepest identity. Your personhood is one of your appearances, not your Reality. Nearer to you than your appearance, nearer than your self, is the simple, undivided Self, the nameless and mysterious 'space' of Awareness. We tend to overlook this 'space', focusing attention instead on things in the world (from our private thoughts and feelings to all the various levels of the 'external' world.) But we need not overlook our Reality. At the same time as attending to the complexities of life we can be awake to the 'Space' in which these things happen. This is being centred - in the formless Self at the heart of all life." --- I find it a bit more powerful to consider that 'who this 'I' is, is this 'space' in which everything occurs for me'. It sort of gives me some ground to stand on. Looking at the issue from the other view, takes even that ground away! Yipes! So, being a 'space or opening' allows me to just observe what occurs in the space instead of judging, evaluating, and getting all torqued out of shape because I do or don't like what is occurring. That's just about 2 cents worth and I'm broke! :-) Great discussion y'all!! Cheers Rich pr wrote: > > Nagarjuna wrote: > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > ###### From: "pr" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 06:34:21 +0200 Lines: 123 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: nld-dial-196-7-201-25.mweb.co.za Message-ID: <3f8d2df8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> X-Trace: 15 Oct 2003 13:22:32 +0200, nld-dial-196-7-201-25.mweb.co.za Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!infeed.is.co.za!feeder.is.co.za!uunet.co.za!news1.mweb.co.za!nld-dial-196-7-201-25.mweb.co.za Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9554 "Richard Bonk" wrote in message news:3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk... > > It's like with rain. Rain is coming from ocean and changes into > individual drops. Each drop is unique. There are not two exactly same > drops. But in the end they join back into the ocean and become one with > ocan. Same with living beings. In this world they are separated from the > supreme and therefore they are individual "I" but only until they again > become part of the Supreme "I". That is sort of the popular view, and I think an erroneous one. If you look at it carefully then "individual" and "separate" has no real meaning in terms of existing evne in this world. It only has a functional, practical meaning. IOW, *I* do not exist as a separate, individual entity, even now. The use of *I* is a convenience to indicate a centre of action but not a separate, independent of all other things, centre of action. -- Namu Amida Butsu Peter Reber "Life knows its needs" > pr wrote: > > > > Nagarjuna wrote: > > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > > > If we exclude the Buddha himself, Nagarjuna is the most > > revered person in Buddhism. Every lineage of Mahayana > > Buddhism has him included. We should therefore > > consider his words carefully. His words are also of > > importance to all paths as they refer to how human > > perceptions of the world and themselves are shaped. > > What are the two truths, or if you like, what are the > > two worlds we live in? The first one is the world of > > language, "mere" words and labels. The second one > > is the world as it really is, without distinctions, > > without boundaries, in other words One. > > Language and words are exactly the opposite, > > making distinctions, e.g. saying this is an e-mail and > > not a letter on paper. From this it is clear that language > > can never fully describe the second, the real, world. > > It is a wolrd created by us, made up by us as we go > > along, and thus has no inherent, lasting reality. > > Let's take the word "letter" which the Germans would > > label "Brief". Why use two different words/labels for > > the same thing? Because we can just make it up > > and provided you can get sufficient people to agree, > > that is what it will be called. > > We know what a letter is, but the word "letter" is > > not the real thing, it does not produce an > > actual piece of paper with ink marks in front > > of you. It may produce an image of it your mind, > > but that is not the real thing either and without > > checking we do not even know whether a real letter > > actually exists. Language thus allows us to make > > things up and manipulate them as if they were > > real. For example, I could mail my imaginary > > letter in my imaginary mail to an imaginary > > recipient. I could even come to belief that the > > letter was indeed written and that I actually did > > send it to somebody. > > > > Something similar happens to the self, the *I*, > > where in our madness we have come to a general > > agreement that this *I* exists. > > Yes, it does have a functional value, it is easier > > to say "I am writing this e-mail" than "There is > > some activity by a human body, for the purpose > > of distinguishing it from other such human bodies > > labelled "X", in a place called "Y". > > But just as "letter" is not the real thing but > > just a place holder, so is the *I* not real. *I* is > > really just a nexus of some activity, some of > > which is or seems voluntary and others which > > are not. If you look at "your" situation carefully > > then you will see that there is no boundary > > between yourself and the world. There is really > > no "In here" and "Out there". You breathe, you > > take in food and expel waste products. You > > interact with other people, and the world in > > general, every day. There is no *I* apart from > > the world. In whatever way I look at it, the > > "in here" depends on the "out there", is > > inextricably linked. If that is the case how can > > there really be a "inside" and "outside"? > > > > We have fallen into the serious error to take the > > world of labels and words as real, thus believing > > even that *I* exist. This has the effect that the > > world becomes lopsided, is turned inside out and > > outside in and thus the need for projection arises. > > It gets distorted by my erroneous view and thus I > > am not able to see the real truth. > > To the degree that I know that the world of words > > and labels is made up, exists for our convenience > > only in order to communicate with other human > > beings, its distorting effect reduces and there > > arises the possibility of seeing the real truth. > > If we stay absorbed in our language constructs, > > belief that things are real which are not, > > we have no hope of ever moving beyond rhetoric > > and arguments. That is why the next verse from > > Nagarjuna reads: > > > > "If one is not able to know > > The distinction between the two truths > > One cannot know the true meaning > > Of the profound Buddha Dharma." > > > > -- > > Namu Amida Butsu > > Peter Reber > > "Life knows its needs" ###### From: "pr" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:50:37 +0200 Lines: 68 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: nld-dial-196-7-201-25.mweb.co.za Message-ID: <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> X-Trace: 15 Oct 2003 13:22:35 +0200, nld-dial-196-7-201-25.mweb.co.za Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!infeed.is.co.za!feeder.is.co.za!uunet.co.za!news1.mweb.co.za!nld-dial-196-7-201-25.mweb.co.za Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9555 "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca... Hi Rich, welcome back.I wondered what happened to you. > When I am faced with the perspective of the 'I' or 'self" I bring to > mind a quote from the 'Katha Upanishad' (6oo B.C.) > "Turn your attention round 180 degrees and attend to you the Looker, and > you will find the Self. This is who you are at centre. Here in the > centre you are not a 'thing'. You are the awake 'space' in which all > things happen, in which all life unfolds. [snip ...] Good quote. The only problem I have with it is the introduction of the "Looker". I am pretty certain that this is a difficulty introduced by the structure of the european languages. As it stands, this gives rise to the idea that there is a Looker who looks and in this reinforces the idea from which it is supposed to rescue us from. All that happens is that the looker changes from a small looker *i* to a Big Looker *I*. There is no looker (big or small) there is only looking, the process of it. > But this is not your deepest identity. Your personhood is one of your > appearances, not your Reality. Nearer to you than your appearance, > nearer than your self, is the simple, undivided Self, the nameless and > mysterious 'space' of Awareness. This should really give us a clue that there is really no looker or self. Nameless, undivided, even gets rid of the Self. >We tend to overlook > this 'space', focusing attention instead on things in the world (from > our private thoughts > and feelings to all the various levels of the 'external' world.) But we > need not overlook > our Reality. At the same time as attending to the complexities of life > we can be awake to > the 'Space' in which these things happen. This is being centred - in the > formless Self at the > heart of all life." --- > I find it a bit more powerful to consider that 'who this 'I' is, is this > 'space' in which everything occurs for me'. It sort of gives me some > ground to stand on. Looking at the issue from the other view, takes even > that ground away! Yipes! So, being a 'space or opening' allows me to > just observe what occurs in the space instead of judging, evaluating, > and getting all torqued out of shape because I do or don't like what is > occurring. That's just about 2 cents worth and I'm broke! :-) And one way of practicing this is to remove personal pronouns, I, you, we, from your private thoughts and replace it with "there". I am writing becomes "there is some writing, "you are unhappy" = "there is some unhappines", "he is sad" = "there is some sadness occurring", etc. Do not start to speak like this in public otherwise men in white coats might make an appearance. -- Namu Amida Butsu Peter Reber "Life knows its needs" ###### Message-ID: <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:16:38 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: Byjoke@bluewin.ch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.93.106 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.93.106 X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066219392 81.62.93.106 (15 Oct 2003 14:03:12 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 70 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9556 All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? Try to guess.. The pr wrote: > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca... > > Hi Rich, > > welcome back.I wondered what happened to you. > > > When I am faced with the perspective of the 'I' or 'self" I bring to > > mind a quote from the 'Katha Upanishad' (6oo B.C.) > > "Turn your attention round 180 degrees and attend to you the Looker, and > > you will find the Self. This is who you are at centre. Here in the > > centre you are not a 'thing'. You are the awake 'space' in which all > > things happen, in which all life unfolds. [snip ...] > > Good quote. The only problem I have with it is the > introduction of the "Looker". I am pretty certain > that this is a difficulty introduced by the structure > of the european languages. As it stands, this gives > rise to the idea that there is a Looker who looks and > in this reinforces the idea from which it is supposed > to rescue us from. All that happens is that the looker > changes from a small looker *i* to a Big Looker *I*. > There is no looker (big or small) there is only > looking, the process of it. > > > But this is not your deepest identity. Your personhood is one of your > > appearances, not your Reality. Nearer to you than your appearance, > > nearer than your self, is the simple, undivided Self, the nameless and > > mysterious 'space' of Awareness. > > This should really give us a clue that there is really > no looker or self. Nameless, undivided, even gets > rid of the Self. > > >We tend to overlook > > this 'space', focusing attention instead on things in the world (from > > our private thoughts > > and feelings to all the various levels of the 'external' world.) But we > > need not overlook > > our Reality. At the same time as attending to the complexities of life > > we can be awake to > > the 'Space' in which these things happen. This is being centred - in the > > formless Self at the > > heart of all life." --- > > I find it a bit more powerful to consider that 'who this 'I' is, is this > > 'space' in which everything occurs for me'. It sort of gives me some > > ground to stand on. Looking at the issue from the other view, takes even > > that ground away! Yipes! So, being a 'space or opening' allows me to > > just observe what occurs in the space instead of judging, evaluating, > > and getting all torqued out of shape because I do or don't like what is > > occurring. That's just about 2 cents worth and I'm broke! :-) > > And one way of practicing this is to remove personal > pronouns, I, you, we, from your private thoughts and > replace it with "there". I am writing becomes "there is some > writing, "you are unhappy" = "there is some unhappines", > "he is sad" = "there is some sadness occurring", etc. > Do not start to speak like this in public otherwise men > in white coats might make an appearance. > > -- > Namu Amida Butsu > Peter Reber > "Life knows its needs" ###### From: Richard Bonk Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:37:13 +0100 Organization: FTEL Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3F8D3F79.BBF6BB80@ftel.co.uk> References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk> <3f8d2df8.0@news1.mweb.co.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: mungo.ftel.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news-out.ftel.co.uk 1066221433 21592 172.16.2.12 (15 Oct 2003 12:37:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@ftel.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:37:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!news-out.ftel.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9557 pr wrote: > > "Richard Bonk" wrote in message > news:3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk... > > > > It's like with rain. Rain is coming from ocean and changes into > > individual drops. Each drop is unique. There are not two exactly same > > drops. But in the end they join back into the ocean and become one with > > ocan. Same with living beings. In this world they are separated from the > > supreme and therefore they are individual "I" but only until they again > > become part of the Supreme "I". > > That is sort of the popular view, and I think an erroneous one. > If you look at it carefully then "individual" and "separate" has > no real meaning in terms of existing evne in this world. > It only has a functional, practical meaning. IOW, *I* do > not exist as a separate, individual entity, even now. The > use of *I* is a convenience to indicate a centre of action > but not a separate, independent of all other things, centre > of action. > The understanding of "individual" does not mean independent. Like sunrays (sunshine) are part of sun. They are coming from sun. But they are not sun in same sense. each sunray is individual. But it cannot exist without sun! It is representation of sun. It is energy of sun. Same with living entities. They are small sparks so small you can't measure them. The "I" doesn't mean this body, mind or inteligence as is used to address. This is wrong understanding of real "I". The real "I" is comming from the "Absolute I" and is therefore "Absolute I" but in qualitative rather than quantitative measurements. It is same and different. It is impossible to understand with material senses. It needs to be realised and experienced. Richard ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <2815510b4c359f9fa520d981889ccf0a@news.teranews.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:37:57 GMT Lines: 112 From: "arthealer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9561 "pr" wrote in message news:3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za... > Nagarjuna wrote: > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > Hi peter, thanks for the time and energy you put into this post as i realize it is not so easy to write about. i have written and rewritten replies but can't ever seem to say what i want to impart. i agree with many points you have made concerning the nature of language and symbols you did and excellent job of it. may i ask you what it is you get out of this viewpoint about the self. Why do you maintain it? love is. . . . . > If we exclude the Buddha himself, Nagarjuna is the most > revered person in Buddhism. Every lineage of Mahayana > Buddhism has him included. We should therefore > consider his words carefully. His words are also of > importance to all paths as they refer to how human > perceptions of the world and themselves are shaped. > What are the two truths, or if you like, what are the > two worlds we live in? The first one is the world of > language, "mere" words and labels. The second one > is the world as it really is, without distinctions, > without boundaries, in other words One. > Language and words are exactly the opposite, > making distinctions, e.g. saying this is an e-mail and > not a letter on paper. From this it is clear that language > can never fully describe the second, the real, world. > It is a wolrd created by us, made up by us as we go > along, and thus has no inherent, lasting reality. > Let's take the word "letter" which the Germans would > label "Brief". Why use two different words/labels for > the same thing? Because we can just make it up > and provided you can get sufficient people to agree, > that is what it will be called. > We know what a letter is, but the word "letter" is > not the real thing, it does not produce an > actual piece of paper with ink marks in front > of you. It may produce an image of it your mind, > but that is not the real thing either and without > checking we do not even know whether a real letter > actually exists. Language thus allows us to make > things up and manipulate them as if they were > real. For example, I could mail my imaginary > letter in my imaginary mail to an imaginary > recipient. I could even come to belief that the > letter was indeed written and that I actually did > send it to somebody. > > Something similar happens to the self, the *I*, > where in our madness we have come to a general > agreement that this *I* exists. > Yes, it does have a functional value, it is easier > to say "I am writing this e-mail" than "There is > some activity by a human body, for the purpose > of distinguishing it from other such human bodies > labelled "X", in a place called "Y". > But just as "letter" is not the real thing but > just a place holder, so is the *I* not real. *I* is > really just a nexus of some activity, some of > which is or seems voluntary and others which > are not. If you look at "your" situation carefully > then you will see that there is no boundary > between yourself and the world. There is really > no "In here" and "Out there". You breathe, you > take in food and expel waste products. You > interact with other people, and the world in > general, every day. There is no *I* apart from > the world. In whatever way I look at it, the > "in here" depends on the "out there", is > inextricably linked. If that is the case how can > there really be a "inside" and "outside"? > > We have fallen into the serious error to take the > world of labels and words as real, thus believing > even that *I* exist. This has the effect that the > world becomes lopsided, is turned inside out and > outside in and thus the need for projection arises. > It gets distorted by my erroneous view and thus I > am not able to see the real truth. > To the degree that I know that the world of words > and labels is made up, exists for our convenience > only in order to communicate with other human > beings, its distorting effect reduces and there > arises the possibility of seeing the real truth. > If we stay absorbed in our language constructs, > belief that things are real which are not, > we have no hope of ever moving beyond rhetoric > and arguments. That is why the next verse from > Nagarjuna reads: > > "If one is not able to know > The distinction between the two truths > One cannot know the true meaning > Of the profound Buddha Dharma." > > -- > Namu Amida Butsu > Peter Reber > "Life knows its needs" > > > ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:47:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1066225644 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:47:24 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:47:24 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9563 Hi Theo, Theo wrote: > > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > Try to guess.. > The > Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage in the conversation and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean anything except that there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something about that! An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes 'understanding' is the boobie prize!" Cheers Rich ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:39:59 GMT Lines: 34 From: "arthealer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-xfer.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news3.optonline.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9565 "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca... > Hi Theo, > > > Theo wrote: > > > > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > > Try to guess.. > > The > > > Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage in > the > conversation > and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean > anything except that > there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something > about that! > An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes > 'understanding' is the boobie prize!" Hey rich. . .glad to see ya back i believe this saying came out of the EST training seminars they held in California years ago. Can't even remember the fellows name.. . . anyway, the very small booklet that contains this saying contains many other cute little things that don't mean anything.. . . just another way of saying "you never know". . . .yet another way to disempower a person. love is. . . . > Cheers > Rich ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <06ae4f9e9f10ca72edc25e05e3df1b1c@news.teranews.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:42:46 GMT Lines: 58 From: "arthealer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9567 "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca... > Hi Peter, > hey rich ...really enjoyed this quote! . . .right in line with my own thoughts about it. . .thank you!!! > Just got back into town so I missed the fun!! Some good stuff going on > in the group this last while! > Just a quick point of view and I am aware of the 'exhaustion' of the > various topics! > When I am faced with the perspective of the 'I' or 'self" I bring to > mind a quote from the 'Katha Upanishad' (6oo B.C.) > "Turn your attention round 180 degrees and attend to you the Looker, and > you will find the Self. This is who you are at centre. Here in the > centre you are not a 'thing'. You are the awake 'space' in which all > things happen, in which all life unfolds. > Yes, you are also a person, you have a name, a nationality, a birth day > and a death day. > But this is not your deepest identity. Your personhood is one of your > appearances, not your Reality. Nearer to you than your appearance, > nearer than your self, is the simple, undivided Self, the nameless and > mysterious 'space' of Awareness. We tend to overlook > this 'space', focusing attention instead on things in the world (from > our private thoughts > and feelings to all the various levels of the 'external' world.) But we > need not overlook > our Reality. At the same time as attending to the complexities of life > we can be awake to > the 'Space' in which these things happen. This is being centred - in the > formless Self at the > heart of all life." --- > I find it a bit more powerful to consider that 'who this 'I' is, is this > 'space' in which everything occurs for me'. It sort of gives me some > ground to stand on. Looking at the issue from the other view, takes even > that ground away! Yipes! So, being a 'space or opening' allows me to > just observe what occurs in the space instead of judging, evaluating, > and getting all torqued out of shape because I do or don't like what is > occurring. That's just about 2 cents worth and I'm broke! :-) > Great discussion y'all!! > Cheers > Rich > > > > > pr wrote: > > > > Nagarjuna wrote: > > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > > ###### Message-ID: <3F8D640E.403A0DD0@bluewin.ch> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:13:18 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: Byjoke@bluewin.ch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.93.106 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.93.106 X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066229993 81.62.93.106 (15 Oct 2003 16:59:53 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 50 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9568 I agree that understanding is wonderful but it does not stop the world from spinning since the beginning ... so we must accept that few things cannot be understood.. a nice story.... Once upon a time a wise man was walking by the shore and his mind was very busy thinking about thr True nature of God.. suddenly he sow a young child that was taking sea water into a shell and pouring it into a pool in the sand .. The Wise watched for a while the useless work of the kid and suddenly told him What are you doing ? The kid said : I empty the sea...... and went on..doing his job The wise man laughted and told the kid .. : The sea is endless how can you think you can put it in a such a small pond..? And the little guy smiled back and answered.. :And how can you think to understand the endless nature of God ? Accept that irrational exists do not make out of it a cult, do not try to understand it rationally , be happy you are conscious it can be used .. Light and Love Theo Rich wrote: > Hi Theo, > > Theo wrote: > > > > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > > Try to guess.. > > The > > > Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage in > the > conversation > and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean > anything except that > there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something > about that! > An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes > 'understanding' is the boobie prize!" > Cheers > Rich ###### Message-ID: <3F8D6551.ACDF68B@bluewin.ch> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:18:42 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: Byjoke@bluewin.ch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <06ae4f9e9f10ca72edc25e05e3df1b1c@news.teranews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.93.106 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.93.106 X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066230316 81.62.93.106 (15 Oct 2003 17:05:16 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 71 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9569 HI This makes me think to another story A zen monk was used to meditate keeping his index finger straught upward.. a disciple watching him and thinking that this was the true and only way to meditate start doing the same... One day the Monk passed behind the disciple while was meditating with the lifted finger and cut it off with a sword. The disciple shocked asked the monk " why did you do that ? and the monk did not answer , jus smiled and lifted his own index.. Theo arthealer wrote: > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca... > > Hi Peter, > > > hey rich ...really enjoyed this quote! . . .right in line with my own > thoughts about it. . .thank you!!! > > > Just got back into town so I missed the fun!! Some good stuff going on > > in the group this last while! > > Just a quick point of view and I am aware of the 'exhaustion' of the > > various topics! > > When I am faced with the perspective of the 'I' or 'self" I bring to > > mind a quote from the 'Katha Upanishad' (6oo B.C.) > > "Turn your attention round 180 degrees and attend to you the Looker, and > > you will find the Self. This is who you are at centre. Here in the > > centre you are not a 'thing'. You are the awake 'space' in which all > > things happen, in which all life unfolds. > > Yes, you are also a person, you have a name, a nationality, a birth day > > and a death day. > > But this is not your deepest identity. Your personhood is one of your > > appearances, not your Reality. Nearer to you than your appearance, > > nearer than your self, is the simple, undivided Self, the nameless and > > mysterious 'space' of Awareness. We tend to overlook > > this 'space', focusing attention instead on things in the world (from > > our private thoughts > > and feelings to all the various levels of the 'external' world.) But we > > need not overlook > > our Reality. At the same time as attending to the complexities of life > > we can be awake to > > the 'Space' in which these things happen. This is being centred - in the > > formless Self at the > > heart of all life." --- > > I find it a bit more powerful to consider that 'who this 'I' is, is this > > 'space' in which everything occurs for me'. It sort of gives me some > > ground to stand on. Looking at the issue from the other view, takes even > > that ground away! Yipes! So, being a 'space or opening' allows me to > > just observe what occurs in the space instead of judging, evaluating, > > and getting all torqued out of shape because I do or don't like what is > > occurring. That's just about 2 cents worth and I'm broke! :-) > > Great discussion y'all!! > > Cheers > > Rich > > > > > > > > > > pr wrote: > > > > > > Nagarjuna wrote: > > > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > > > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > > > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > > > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > > > > ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:18:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1066238289 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:18:09 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:18:09 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9578 Actually, it doesn't disempower a person at all, unless one is looking to be disempowered. It points to the possibility that there is value in what is being discussed, even if you don't have all your relevant facts in order, and maybe you can get value and understand nothing. The importance is the value...and it doesn't matter who said the words originally. They have meaning for me. Rich arthealer wrote: > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca... > > Hi Theo, > > > > > > Theo wrote: > > > > > > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > > > Try to guess.. > > > The > > > > > Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage in > > the > > conversation > > and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean > > anything except that > > there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something > > about that! > > An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes > > 'understanding' is the boobie prize!" > > Hey rich. . .glad to see ya back > i believe this saying came out of the EST training seminars they held in > California years ago. Can't even remember the fellows name.. . . anyway, the > very small booklet that contains this saying contains many other cute little > things that don't mean anything.. . . just another way of saying "you never > know". . . .yet another way to disempower a person. > love is. . . . > > > Cheers > > Rich ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8D81DF.889B8440@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D640E.403A0DD0@bluewin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:22:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1066238546 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:22:26 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:22:26 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!feed1.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9579 Hi Theo, Cult? What a cult really is, is a group that hasn't quite got enough members to qualify as a minority! Rich Theo wrote: > > > Accept that irrational exists do not make out of it a cult, > do not try to understand it rationally , > be happy you are conscious it can be used .. > Light and Love > Theo > ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8D8D27.166A87DE@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:10:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1066241434 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:10:34 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:10:34 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9581 pr wrote: > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca... > > Hi Rich, > > welcome back.I wondered what happened to you. > > > When I am faced with the perspective of the 'I' or 'self" I bring to > > mind a quote from the 'Katha Upanishad' (6oo B.C.) > > "Turn your attention round 180 degrees and attend to you the Looker, and > > you will find the Self. This is who you are at centre. Here in the > > centre you are not a 'thing'. You are the awake 'space' in which all > > things happen, in which all life unfolds. [snip ...] > > Good quote. The only problem I have with it is the > introduction of the "Looker". I am pretty certain > that this is a difficulty introduced by the structure > of the european languages. As it stands, this gives > rise to the idea that there is a Looker who looks and > in this reinforces the idea from which it is supposed > to rescue us from. All that happens is that the looker > changes from a small looker *i* to a Big Looker *I*. > There is no looker (big or small) there is only > looking, the process of it. Yep. It's sort of a dilemma if one tries to resolve it (I don't), yet I could make a list of things in my life (no, not here! ) that have been altered just by reading and re-reading and only getting but a vague sense of looker vs. looking! Meditating makes a huge difference when the mind's busy-ness is a bit in check. > And one way of practicing this is to remove personal > pronouns, I, you, we, from your private thoughts and > replace it with "there". I am writing becomes "there is some > writing, "you are unhappy" = "there is some unhappines", > "he is sad" = "there is some sadness occurring", etc. > Do not start to speak like this in public otherwise men > in white coats might make an appearance. Yeah, and in some ancient cultures those folks that today's white coats would be after were considered the super-specials, even guru-like! Rats! Born in the wrong times! :-) Rich > > -- > Namu Amida Butsu > Peter Reber > "Life knows its needs" ###### Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:32:54 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: byjoke@bluewin.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D640E.403A0DD0@bluewin.ch> <3F8D81DF.889B8440@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <3F8D81DF.889B8440@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.203.229.254 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.203.229.254 Message-ID: <3f8d92be_5@news.bluewin.ch> X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066242750 62.203.229.254 (15 Oct 2003 20:32:30 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 22 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9583 I ment cult=obsession like people that try to find out of whatever idiocy something alien or supernatural and so on Theo Rich wrote: > Hi Theo, > Cult? What a cult really is, is a group that hasn't quite got enough > members to qualify as a minority! > Rich > > Theo wrote: > > >> Accept that irrational exists do not make out of it a cult, >>do not try to understand it rationally , >>be happy you are conscious it can be used .. >> Light and Love >> Theo >> ###### Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:50:25 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: byjoke@bluewin.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D640E.403A0DD0@bluewin.ch> <3F8D81DF.889B8440@shaw.ca> <3f8d92be_5@news.bluewin.ch> <3F8D9DAF.80202644@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <3F8D9DAF.80202644@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.203.229.254 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.203.229.254 Message-ID: <3f8da4e8_1@news.bluewin.ch> X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066247400 62.203.229.254 (15 Oct 2003 21:50:00 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 26 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9587 Rich wrote: > I know what you meant, Theo! But if I have a chance to throw in > something I think is funny, it may be attached to your post! I think > some of your responses to postings are worth collecting and publishing! > You better add copyrights to some of them! in which cathegory madness ,idiocy ,fun , things that make sense ..? The universe is not empty void is not void.. is void at our physical level is filled at e subatomical level... if you go further you'll find more... Theo > Rich > > Theo wrote: > >>I ment cult=obsession >> like people that try to find out of whatever idiocy something alien >>or supernatural and so on >>Theo >> ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8DAE68.7F1CF914@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D640E.403A0DD0@bluewin.ch> <3F8D81DF.889B8440@shaw.ca> <3f8d92be_5@news.bluewin.ch> <3F8D9DAF.80202644@shaw.ca> <3f8da4e8_1@news.bluewin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:32:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1066249947 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:32:27 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:32:27 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9588 Spontaneity, Theo, spontaneity! It's one of the keys to really experiencing life. Carefully chosen words with consideration to how they make us appear seem to rob us of our real self-expression! Rich Theo wrote: > > Rich wrote: > > > I know what you meant, Theo! But if I have a chance to throw in > > something I think is funny, it may be attached to your post! I think > > some of your responses to postings are worth collecting and publishing! > > You better add copyrights to some of them! > in which cathegory madness ,idiocy ,fun , things that make sense ..? > The universe is not empty void is not void.. is void at our physical > level is filled at e subatomical level... if you go further you'll find > more... > Theo > > > Rich > > > > Theo wrote: > > > >>I ment cult=obsession > >> like people that try to find out of whatever idiocy something alien > >>or supernatural and so on > >>Theo > >> ###### Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:44:06 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: byjoke@bluewin.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D640E.403A0DD0@bluewin.ch> <3F8D81DF.889B8440@shaw.ca> <3f8d92be_5@news.bluewin.ch> <3F8D9DAF.80202644@shaw.ca> <3f8da4e8_1@news.bluewin.ch> <3F8DAE68.7F1CF914@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <3F8DAE68.7F1CF914@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.203.229.254 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.203.229.254 Message-ID: <3f8db17c$1_1@news.bluewin.ch> X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066250620 62.203.229.254 (15 Oct 2003 22:43:40 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 42 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9589 HI I handicapped with english .. I just sow at TV "The others" with Nicole Kindman.. a nice way to perceive * reality* Good night Theo Rich wrote: > Spontaneity, Theo, spontaneity! It's one of the keys to really > experiencing life. Carefully chosen words with consideration to how they > make us appear seem to rob us of our real self-expression! > Rich > > Theo wrote: > >>Rich wrote: >> >> >>>I know what you meant, Theo! But if I have a chance to throw in >>>something I think is funny, it may be attached to your post! I think >>>some of your responses to postings are worth collecting and publishing! >>>You better add copyrights to some of them! >> >> in which cathegory madness ,idiocy ,fun , things that make sense ..? >>The universe is not empty void is not void.. is void at our physical >>level is filled at e subatomical level... if you go further you'll find >>more... >> Theo >> >> >>>Rich >>> >>>Theo wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I ment cult=obsession >>>> like people that try to find out of whatever idiocy something alien >>>>or supernatural and so on >>>>Theo >>>> ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8DB2CF.511E1766@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D640E.403A0DD0@bluewin.ch> <3F8D81DF.889B8440@shaw.ca> <3f8d92be_5@news.bluewin.ch> <3F8D9DAF.80202644@shaw.ca> <3f8da4e8_1@news.bluewin.ch> <3F8DAE68.7F1CF914@shaw.ca> <3f8db17c$1_1@news.bluewin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:51:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1066251075 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:51:15 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:51:15 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9590 Theo wrote: > > HI > I handicapped with english .. > I just sow at TV "The others" with Nicole Kindman.. > a nice way to perceive * reality* > Good night > Theo > I see no handicap, Theo! Good night! Rich ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:29:28 GMT Lines: 58 From: "arthealer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9591 "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca... > Actually, it doesn't disempower a person at all, unless one is looking > to be disempowered. > It points to the possibility that there is value in > what is being discussed, even if you don't have all your relevant facts > in order, and maybe you can get value and understand nothing. The > importance is the value...and it doesn't matter who said the words > originally. They have meaning for me. > Rich you are absolutely correct Rich . . .no offense meant, sorry you took it that way. i get great value out of so many of the posts here without understanding for some. My sister was in est. for several years. . . they made her sit across from someone and yell at them and be yelled at all day long, for days on end. I just don't understand the value in that. . . . and for me to understand would certainly be the booby prize:) > arthealer wrote: > > > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca... > > > Hi Theo, > > > > > > > > > Theo wrote: > > > > > > > > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > > > > Try to guess.. > > > > The > > > > > > > Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage in > > > the > > > conversation > > > and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean > > > anything except that > > > there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something > > > about that! > > > An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes > > > 'understanding' is the boobie prize!" > > > > Hey rich. . .glad to see ya back > > i believe this saying came out of the EST training seminars they held in > > California years ago. Can't even remember the fellows name.. . . anyway, the > > very small booklet that contains this saying contains many other cute little > > things that don't mean anything.. . . just another way of saying "you never > > know". . . .yet another way to disempower a person. > > love is. . . . > > > > > Cheers > > > Rich ###### From: nobody@nowhere.org.net (Nadie Niemand) Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.org.net Message-ID: <3f8de7b6.924099@news.west.earthlink.net> References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 10 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:27:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.69.6.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net 1066264033 207.69.6.3 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:27:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:27:13 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9596 On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:16:38 +0200, Theo wrote: >All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > Try to guess.. Would that have anything to do with the article that Stuart posted recently? Garry ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 79 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:35:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1066268133 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:35:33 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:35:33 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9599 No offense taken. And I am very leery of some of the tales folks tell that they refer to as 'facts'. 'To be human' is to grossly overstate some of the facts of our lives. Now here's a question that comes to mind...was your sister tied to a chair, or locked in a cage, or held at gun point? If someone yelled at me for minutes on end, never mind days, I'd have gotten up and left, unless there was some value there. Or is there just a wee bit of 'drama queen' involved here? Now, I could be totally full of sh...t, because I don't know your sister. (but I do know what est was about!) Why would someone be involved 'for several years' if that was their treatment? Now here's the thing...when I read a quote that seems to resonate, I allow myself to get involved with the words and their message. I don't do a historical background check to see if there is some bad stuff in the life of the one who quoted. As an example, Machiavelli is supposed to be an incredibly bad role model, and he has said some pretty noteworthy stuff IMHO. And your example of 'understanding', i.e. your sister, doesn't really capture the sense of the statement. But that's what communication is about, right? It's not about shutting down and going away! Cheers Rich arthealer wrote: > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca... > > Actually, it doesn't disempower a person at all, unless one is looking > > to be disempowered. > > It points to the possibility that there is value in > > what is being discussed, even if you don't have all your relevant facts > > in order, and maybe you can get value and understand nothing. The > > importance is the value...and it doesn't matter who said the words > > originally. They have meaning for me. > > Rich > > you are absolutely correct Rich . . .no offense meant, sorry you took it > that way. i get great value out of so many of the posts here without > understanding for some. My sister was in est. for several years. . . they > made her sit across from someone and yell at them and be yelled at all day > long, for days on end. I just don't understand the value in that. . . . and > for me to understand would certainly be the booby prize:) > > > arthealer wrote: > > > > > > "Rich" wrote in message > news:3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca... > > > > Hi Theo, > > > > > > > > > > > > Theo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > > > > > Try to guess.. > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage > in > > > > the > > > > conversation > > > > and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean > > > > anything except that > > > > there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something > > > > about that! > > > > An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes > > > > 'understanding' is the boobie prize!" > > > > > > Hey rich. . .glad to see ya back > > > i believe this saying came out of the EST training seminars they held in > > > California years ago. Can't even remember the fellows name.. . . anyway, > the > > > very small booklet that contains this saying contains many other cute > little > > > things that don't mean anything.. . . just another way of saying "you > never > > > know". . . .yet another way to disempower a person. > > > love is. . . . > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Rich ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 02:51:57 GMT Lines: 124 From: "arthealer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> <3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news3.optonline.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9601 "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca... > No offense taken. And I am very leery of some of the tales folks tell > that they refer to as 'facts'. 'To be human' is to grossly overstate > some of the facts of our lives. Now here's a question that comes to > mind...was your sister tied to a chair, or locked in a cage, or held at > gun point? absolutly not, she was "free" to go. . .but she stayed. Then again, i knew her and she was a victim of many things. it may have served her but what i am feeling isn't about what she felt even if it benifited her. . .it is about what *i *think of the organization. i'm sure that came through in my post. it was a very quick response. . . nearly a reflex. >If someone yelled at me for minutes on end, never mind days, > I'd have gotten up and left, unless there was some value there. what is the value of a woman staying in an abusive relationship? She may be "free" to leave, yet chooses to stay. > Or is > there just a wee bit of 'drama queen' involved here? Now, I could be > totally full of sh...t, because I don't know your sister. (but I do know > what est was about!) Why would someone be involved 'for several years' > if that was their treatment? She bought their line of bull sh-t. she grew up with this kind of abusive, manipulative, authoritarian behavior and just as many abused women do .. . she sought the same relationships when she left home. > Now here's the thing...when I read a quote that seems to resonate, I > allow myself to get involved with the words and their message. I don't > do a historical background check to see if there is some bad stuff in > the life of the one who quoted. it's not yours rich. . . . . it was my own interpretation and my history with it. >As an example, Machiavelli is supposed > to be an incredibly bad role model, and he has said some pretty > noteworthy stuff IMHO. > And your example of 'understanding', i.e. your sister, doesn't really > capture the sense of the statement. "understanding is the booby prize".. . . . love is . . > But that's what communication is about, right? It's not about shutting > down and going away! > Cheers > Rich > > arthealer wrote: > > > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca... > > > Actually, it doesn't disempower a person at all, unless one is looking > > > to be disempowered. > > > It points to the possibility that there is value in > > > what is being discussed, even if you don't have all your relevant facts > > > in order, and maybe you can get value and understand nothing. The > > > importance is the value...and it doesn't matter who said the words > > > originally. They have meaning for me. > > > Rich > > > > you are absolutely correct Rich . . .no offense meant, sorry you took it > > that way. i get great value out of so many of the posts here without > > understanding for some. My sister was in est. for several years. . . they > > made her sit across from someone and yell at them and be yelled at all day > > long, for days on end. I just don't understand the value in that. . . . and > > for me to understand would certainly be the booby prize:) > > > > > arthealer wrote: > > > > > > > > "Rich" wrote in message > > news:3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca... > > > > > Hi Theo, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > > > > > > Try to guess.. > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage > > in > > > > > the > > > > > conversation > > > > > and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean > > > > > anything except that > > > > > there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something > > > > > about that! > > > > > An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes > > > > > 'understanding' is the boobie prize!" > > > > > > > > Hey rich. . .glad to see ya back > > > > i believe this saying came out of the EST training seminars they held in > > > > California years ago. Can't even remember the fellows name.. . . anyway, > > the > > > > very small booklet that contains this saying contains many other cute > > little > > > > things that don't mean anything.. . . just another way of saying "you > > never > > > > know". . . .yet another way to disempower a person. > > > > love is. . . . > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Rich ###### From: "pr" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 06:28:16 +0200 Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: nld-dial-196-7-201-217.mweb.co.za Message-ID: <3f8e1ed0.0@news1.mweb.co.za> X-Trace: 16 Oct 2003 06:30:08 +0200, nld-dial-196-7-201-217.mweb.co.za Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!surfnet.nl!teleglobe.net!uunet.co.za!news1.mweb.co.za!nld-dial-196-7-201-217.mweb.co.za Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9603 "Theo" wrote in message news:3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch... > All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? Us? Who is us? People who ask "you know why?" are usually just about dying to tell me, so go ahead, tell us! -- Namu Amida Butsu Peter Reber "Life knows its needs" ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> <3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 04:29:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1066278556 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:29:16 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:29:16 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9602 arthealer wrote: > > She bought their line of bull sh-t. she grew up with this kind of abusive, > manipulative, authoritarian behavior and just as many abused women do .. . > she sought the same relationships when she left home. Let's see now.... When I sat in an est seminar in the 80's there was a priest, a couple of nuns, a couple of ministers, a couple of social workers, psychologists, a major movie producer, medical folks, and assorted other professionals in attendance. I loved the course and rate it as one of the most important events I ever attended in my life. What I loved about it is that there was nothing to believe and nothing 'new'. It was ontology and drawn from the major disciplines on the planet. Christians, atheists, Buddhists,etc. all were comfortable in the course. A whole monastery did the course back then. An extremely valuable piece of literature called 'Centering Prayer' by a Trappist monk came as a result of the distinctions of the course. My children did the course after I did. They loved it. I love my children very much. They are my most precious treasures. I would never recommend something to them like you described. My ex-wife, on the other hand, hated it. They had the audacity to discuss things like being responsible for your own experience of life, giving and keeping your word, re-creating relationships with parents, children, etc. 'Familiar concepts' or 'line of bullshit'? I guess it's your point of view. Incidentally, some of the participants reported healings as a result of their attendance. There were, however, no promises of that sort of thing. It was just an ontological inquiry. The reactions to the course that I got from some of my 'acquaintances' were similar to the reactions I got when I joined the Knights of Columbus, when I was an Amway distributor, when I studied Buddhism, and anything else people are ignorant of. No wonder the world is in such need of healing! > it's not yours rich. . . . . it was my own interpretation and my history > with it. > Yes. Cheers Rich ###### Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:51:21 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: byjoke@bluewin.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> In-Reply-To: <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.14.209 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.14.209 Message-ID: <3f8e31bd$1_2@news.bluewin.ch> X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066283453 81.62.14.209 (16 Oct 2003 07:50:53 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 89 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9604 HI I started yoga many years ago and one of the first things I understood was that if you repeat Om as mantra you getinto mental void g if you say endlessly coca cola you get the same mental void.. so each Guru as each doctor or shrinc or preacher swear for its methods.. but all are if the same ilk or at least tend to the same result .. some works with some people some does not we have to find out the right plants out of the forest Many people pass from a newly foind revelation to another in his quest of something that might fit him as a glove.. but the hands with time will chnege too and the glove of today won't fit teh same tomorrow :-) we are changing in a changing world .. and we strive to make is steady Theo arthealer wrote: > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca... > >>Actually, it doesn't disempower a person at all, unless one is looking >>to be disempowered. >>It points to the possibility that there is value in >>what is being discussed, even if you don't have all your relevant facts >>in order, and maybe you can get value and understand nothing. The >>importance is the value...and it doesn't matter who said the words >>originally. They have meaning for me. >>Rich > > > you are absolutely correct Rich . . .no offense meant, sorry you took it > that way. i get great value out of so many of the posts here without > understanding for some. My sister was in est. for several years. . . they > made her sit across from someone and yell at them and be yelled at all day > long, for days on end. I just don't understand the value in that. . . . and > for me to understand would certainly be the booby prize:) > > > >>arthealer wrote: >> >>>"Rich" wrote in message > > news:3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca... > >>>>Hi Theo, >>>> >>>> >>>>Theo wrote: >>>> >>>>>All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? >>>>> Try to guess.. >>>>>The >>>>> >>>> >>>>Only if we try to get somewhere with it! The idea is really to engage > > in > >>>>the >>>>conversation >>>>and see what gets revealed. Being frustrated with it doesn't mean >>>>anything except that >>>>there is frustration. Notice how much we think we need to do something >>>>about that! >>>>An old guru-type friend once said to me, "Rich, sometimes >>>>'understanding' is the boobie prize!" >>> >>>Hey rich. . .glad to see ya back >>>i believe this saying came out of the EST training seminars they held in >>>California years ago. Can't even remember the fellows name.. . . anyway, > > the > >>>very small booklet that contains this saying contains many other cute > > little > >>>things that don't mean anything.. . . just another way of saying "you > > never > >>>know". . . .yet another way to disempower a person. >>>love is. . . . >>> >>> >>>>Cheers >>>>Rich > > > ###### Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 07:58:15 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: byjoke@bluewin.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3f8de7b6.924099@news.west.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <3f8de7b6.924099@news.west.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.14.209 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.14.209 Message-ID: <3f8e335c_2@news.bluewin.ch> X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066283868 81.62.14.209 (16 Oct 2003 07:57:48 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 19 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9608 yep but the mental kind LOL! Theo Nadie Niemand wrote: > On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:16:38 +0200, Theo wrote: > > >>All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? >>Try to guess.. > > > Would that have anything to do with the article that Stuart posted > recently? > > Garry > ###### Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 08:20:46 +0200 From: Theo Reply-To: byjoke@bluewin.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3f8e1ed0.0@news1.mweb.co.za> In-Reply-To: <3f8e1ed0.0@news1.mweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.14.209 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.62.14.209 Message-ID: <3f8e38a2$1_1@news.bluewin.ch> X-Trace: news.bluewin.ch 1066285218 81.62.14.209 (16 Oct 2003 08:20:18 +0200) Organization: Bluewin AG Lines: 31 Complaints-To: abuse@bluewin.ch X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.bluewin.ch!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9611 I ment that this discussion is not really constructive is more of the kind of a personal introspection , but the kind of the cat running after his tail .. IMHO it brings nowhere Theo pr wrote: > "Theo" wrote in message > news:3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch... > >>All that is driving us mentally blind and deaf you know why ? > > > Us? Who is us? > People who ask "you know why?" are usually just about > dying to tell me, so go ahead, tell us! > > -- > Namu Amida Butsu > Peter Reber > "Life knows its needs" > > > > > > > > > ###### From: "Shaun Rimmer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:02:19 +0100 Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-152-38-62.range81-152.btcentralplus.com (81.152.38.62) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1066298353 25488035 81.152.38.62 (16 [170198]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!host81-152-38-62.range81-152.btcentralplus.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9614 "pr" wrote in message news:3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za... > Nagarjuna wrote: > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > The second the truth of supreme meaning." Thanks, I enjoyed reading that! Oh, BTW, I am just a figment of my imagination. Shaun aRe ###### From: Richard Bonk Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:21:23 +0100 Organization: FTEL Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3F8E7123.E367CCBE@ftel.co.uk> References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: mungo.ftel.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news-out.ftel.co.uk 1066299684 10312 172.16.2.12 (16 Oct 2003 10:21:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@ftel.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:21:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!news-out.ftel.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9618 Shaun Rimmer wrote: > > "pr" wrote in message > news:3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za... > > Nagarjuna wrote: > > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > Thanks, I enjoyed reading that! > > Oh, BTW, I am just a figment of my imagination. > > Shaun aRe No you are not!!! I does not exist! So how can be imagination yours??? It is only illusion if there is the feeling this message exist and is real. There is no message, no forum, no Reiki, nothing. So how can you blame me for writing this or anything else??? It is not making any sense...or is it?.... can impersonality be real??? The self consciousness is there without us to desire it. The "I" is present everywhere, in air, in water, in earth, in fire, in ether..... Whatever is the real true, the ABSOLUTE TRUE, can't be revealed to us by just telling. If we are not ready to accept it we will never know it. And when the right time comes - we know THE TRUE. We need to realise it ourselves. Risha ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <406d18f5c30925af0c5524c151299490@news.teranews.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:17:40 GMT Lines: 112 From: "arthealer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> <3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca> <3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9636 "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca... > > > arthealer wrote: > > > > > She bought their line of bull sh-t. she grew up with this kind of abusive, > > manipulative, authoritarian behavior and just as many abused women do .. . > > she sought the same relationships when she left home. > > Let's see now.... When I sat in an est seminar in the 80's there was a > priest, > a couple of nuns, a couple of ministers, a couple of social workers, > psychologists, > a major movie producer, medical folks, and assorted other professionals > in attendance. Well, that certainly discredits my sisters experience in the early seventies when est was just getting off the ground.. . . all those "professional" folk there to lend credibility in your eyes. > I loved the course and rate it as one of the most important events I > ever attended in my life yes, i believe that. > What I loved about it is that there was nothing to believe and nothing > 'new'. yes this makes perfect sense. >It was > ontology and drawn from the major disciplines on the planet. Christians, > atheists, Buddhists,etc. > all were comfortable in the course. perhaps:"'To be human' is to grossly overstate some of the facts of our lives". . . it seems after a quick search on the web reveiled a few things you may not have been aware of. . . . . *all* were not comfortable in the course at all. > A whole monastery did the course > back then. An extremely > valuable piece of literature called 'Centering Prayer' by a Trappist > monk came as a result > of the distinctions of the course. wow. > My children did the course after I did. They loved it. I love my > children very much. > They are my most precious treasures. I would never recommend something > to them like you described. no, of course not. > My ex-wife, on the other hand, hated it. They had the audacity to > discuss things like being > responsible for your own experience of life, giving and keeping your > word, re-creating relationships > with parents, children, etc. 'Familiar concepts' or 'line of bullshit'? > I guess it's your point of view. > Incidentally, some of the participants reported healings as a result of > their attendance. it seems others reported abuse. among those people was my sister. > There were, however, no promises of that sort of thing. It was just an > ontological inquiry. > The reactions to the course that I got from some of my 'acquaintances' > were similar to the reactions > I got when I joined the Knights of Columbus, when I was an Amway > distributor, when I studied Buddhism, > and anything else people are ignorant of. interesting. . . .anyway, here is a small excerpt from the first thing i found in a quick web search.. . . . . "est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory answers are met with the stick.) While many participants did not perceive the training as particularly abusive, some were not used to the discipline requested of them. Some have claimed that one typically abusive approach was the requirement of extraordinary bladder control in est training. Participants were advised not to leave the room, even to go to the toilet, during training. According to one est participant, however, "bathroom breaks were scheduled at regular and reasonable intervals....Two or three rows at the back of the room were reserved for those who required more frequent bathroom breaks (and I think either some sort of documentation or personal insistence were required to qualify)". http://skepdic.com/est.html No wonder the world is > in such need of healing! isn't it though. love is . .. > > > it's not yours rich. . . . . it was my own interpretation and my history > > with it. > > > Yes. > Cheers > Rich ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8F1B3F.1C1174FE@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> <3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca> <3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca> <406d18f5c30925af0c5524c151299490@news.teranews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 113 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 22:29:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1066343350 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:29:10 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:29:10 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9637 How about them Marlins! Who'da thought! Peace Rich arthealer wrote: > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca... > > > > > > arthealer wrote: > > > > > > > > She bought their line of bull sh-t. she grew up with this kind of > abusive, > > > manipulative, authoritarian behavior and just as many abused women do .. > . > > > she sought the same relationships when she left home. > > > > Let's see now.... When I sat in an est seminar in the 80's there was a > > priest, > > a couple of nuns, a couple of ministers, a couple of social workers, > > psychologists, > > a major movie producer, medical folks, and assorted other professionals > > in attendance. > > Well, that certainly discredits my sisters experience in the early > seventies when est was just getting off the ground.. . . all those > "professional" folk there to lend credibility in your eyes. > > > I loved the course and rate it as one of the most important events I > > ever attended in my life > > yes, i believe that. > > > What I loved about it is that there was nothing to believe and nothing > > 'new'. > > yes this makes perfect sense. > > >It was > > ontology and drawn from the major disciplines on the planet. Christians, > > atheists, Buddhists,etc. > > all were comfortable in the course. > > perhaps:"'To be human' is to grossly overstate > some of the facts of our lives". . . it seems after a quick search on the > web reveiled a few things you may not have been aware of. . . . . *all* were > not comfortable in the course at all. > > > A whole monastery did the course > > back then. An extremely > > valuable piece of literature called 'Centering Prayer' by a Trappist > > monk came as a result > > of the distinctions of the course. > > wow. > > > My children did the course after I did. They loved it. I love my > > children very much. > > They are my most precious treasures. I would never recommend something > > to them like you described. > > no, of course not. > > > My ex-wife, on the other hand, hated it. They had the audacity to > > discuss things like being > > responsible for your own experience of life, giving and keeping your > > word, re-creating relationships > > with parents, children, etc. 'Familiar concepts' or 'line of bullshit'? > > I guess it's your point of view. > > Incidentally, some of the participants reported healings as a result of > > their attendance. > > it seems others reported abuse. among those people was my sister. > > > There were, however, no promises of that sort of thing. It was just an > > ontological inquiry. > > The reactions to the course that I got from some of my 'acquaintances' > > were similar to the reactions > > I got when I joined the Knights of Columbus, when I was an Amway > > distributor, when I studied Buddhism, > > and anything else people are ignorant of. > > interesting. . . .anyway, here is a small excerpt from the first thing i > found in a quick web search.. . . . . > "est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, > profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of > the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the > disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory > answers are met with the stick.) While many participants did not perceive > the training as particularly abusive, some were not used to the discipline > requested of them. Some have claimed that one typically abusive approach was > the requirement of extraordinary bladder control in est training. > Participants were advised not to leave the room, even to go to the toilet, > during training. According to one est participant, however, "bathroom breaks > were scheduled at regular and reasonable intervals....Two or three rows at > the back of the room were reserved for those who required more frequent > bathroom breaks (and I think either some sort of documentation or personal > insistence were required to qualify)". http://skepdic.com/est.html > > No wonder the world is > > in such need of healing! > > isn't it though. > love is . .. > > > > > > it's not yours rich. . . . . it was my own interpretation and my history > > > with it. > > > > > Yes. > > Cheers > > Rich ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F8F2C94.4B55B086@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> <3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca> <3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca> <406d18f5c30925af0c5524c151299490@news.teranews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 23:43:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1066347787 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:43:07 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:43:07 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9638 Hi Kevin, Had a chance to take a deep breath? That's why I threw in the baseball time-out. Okay, here's what I see.....our conversation isn't about the stuff getting typed onto the page. What is getting missed in the whole mish-mash is your love for your sister. I get that. That's the only important thing here, and not what skepto-pages.com or other disgruntled folks say. That stuff is all hear-say and reaction. Thank you for the commitment you have to love and stand by your sister. That's what experiencing life is really all about. Cheers Rich arthealer wrote: > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca... > > > > > > arthealer wrote: > > > > > > ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:55:49 GMT Lines: 33 From: "arthealer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8CB807.DD4E82CE@shaw.ca> <3f8d2dfb.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8D3AA5.938FF05C@bluewin.ch> <3F8D4F79.7B69F8EA@shaw.ca> <3F8D80DE.841A0ABB@shaw.ca> <6f27823681a4b3b007351a37d34f7089@news.teranews.com> <3F8DF570.2EDF1D41@shaw.ca> <3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca> <406d18f5c30925af0c5524c151299490@news.teranews.com> <3F8F2C94.4B55B086@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!router1.news.adelphia.net!rip!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9639 "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8F2C94.4B55B086@shaw.ca... > Hi Kevin, > Had a chance to take a deep breath? That's why I threw in the baseball > time-out. > Okay, here's what I see.....our conversation isn't about the stuff > getting typed onto the > page. What is getting missed in the whole mish-mash is your love for > your sister. I get that. > That's the only important thing here, > and not what skepto-pages.com or other disgruntled folks say. That stuff > is all hear-say and reaction. > Thank you for the commitment you have to love and stand by your sister. > That's what experiencing life is really all about. > Cheers > Rich > Thanks Rich, that is exactly what is going on:) love is . .. . > arthealer wrote: > > > > "Rich" wrote in message news:3F8E1E26.CCA91477@shaw.ca... > > > > > > > > > arthealer wrote: > > > > > > > > > ###### From: "Shaun Rimmer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:10:11 +0100 Lines: 74 Message-ID: References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8E7123.E367CCBE@ftel.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-152-38-38.range81-152.btcentralplus.com (81.152.38.38) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1066378024 18887003 81.152.38.38 (16 [170198]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!host81-152-38-38.range81-152.btcentralplus.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9641 "Richard Bonk" wrote in message news:3F8E7123.E367CCBE@ftel.co.uk... > Shaun Rimmer wrote: > > > > "pr" wrote in message > > news:3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za... > > > Nagarjuna wrote: > > > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > > > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > > > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > > > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > > > Thanks, I enjoyed reading that! > > > > Oh, BTW, I am just a figment of my imagination. > > > > Shaun aRe > > No you are not!!! A-hah! Nor can I be! Which was the whole point of the statement - I conjured up an impossibility (there is a word that I should have used there, but for the life of me, my mind refuses to retrieve it from it's archives!). > I does not exist! So how can be imagination yours??? Another of my favourite statements, in the same vane: "You don't have to exercise free will, at the end of the day it's up to you". I'm just silly, I suppose ',;~}~ > It is only illusion if there is the feeling this message exist and is > real. There is no message, no forum, no Reiki, nothing. All is *reiki. Matter is *reiki, woven in patterns of illusion. 'IMO' (etc). > So how can you blame me for writing this or anything else??? If I desire to, then because I can. It is yours to decide, weather or not to bear it though ',;~}~ > It is not making any sense...or is it?.... can impersonality be real??? > > The self consciousness is there without us to desire it. The "I" is > present everywhere, in air, in water, in earth, in fire, in ether..... All is *reiki, all is of the one thing. > Whatever is the real true, the ABSOLUTE TRUE, can't be revealed to us by > just telling. Of course not! Even some of the comparitively lesser truths are failed by mere words. There is enlightenment, a fragment of the true truth, conveyed to us by the all in a moment of genuine, spontaneous laughter. I like to laugh ',;~}~ > If we are not ready to accept it we will never know it. > And when the right time comes - we know THE TRUE. We need to realise it > ourselves. There can be truth in a falsehood - context is all in these things. What remains un-said can be far more telling than anything contained in the words themselves. Even simple sarcasm begins to demonstrate this. When we talk with our closest friends, far more is said than could generally be conveyed to 'an outsider' with the same words and gestures. Shaun aRe - I know what I mean, but words fail me ',;~}~ *(call it what you will, call it the 'is'? Heheheheh - the un-nameable thing behind the label.) ###### From: "R. Bonk" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:06:25 +0100 Organization: FTEL Lines: 85 Message-ID: <3F8FB111.5183A665@ftel.co.uk> References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8E7123.E367CCBE@ftel.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: europa.ftel.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news-out.ftel.co.uk 1066381587 31991 172.16.2.98 (17 Oct 2003 09:06:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@ftel.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:06:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!news-out.ftel.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9645 Shaun Rimmer wrote: > > "Richard Bonk" wrote in message > news:3F8E7123.E367CCBE@ftel.co.uk... > > Shaun Rimmer wrote: > > > > > > "pr" wrote in message > > > news:3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za... > > > > Nagarjuna wrote: > > > > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > > > > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > > > > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > > > > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > > > > > Thanks, I enjoyed reading that! > > > > > > Oh, BTW, I am just a figment of my imagination. > > > > > > Shaun aRe > > > > No you are not!!! > > A-hah! Nor can I be! Which was the whole point of the statement - I conjured > up an impossibility (there is a word that I should have used there, but for > the life of me, my mind refuses to retrieve it from it's archives!). > > > I does not exist! So how can be imagination yours??? > > Another of my favourite statements, in the same vane: "You don't have to > exercise free will, at the end of the day it's up to you". I'm just silly, I > suppose ',;~}~ > > > It is only illusion if there is the feeling this message exist and is > > real. There is no message, no forum, no Reiki, nothing. > > All is *reiki. Matter is *reiki, woven in patterns of illusion. 'IMO' (etc). > > > So how can you blame me for writing this or anything else??? > > If I desire to, then because I can. It is yours to decide, weather or not to > bear it though ',;~}~ > > > It is not making any sense...or is it?.... can impersonality be real??? > > > > The self consciousness is there without us to desire it. The "I" is > > present everywhere, in air, in water, in earth, in fire, in ether..... > > All is *reiki, all is of the one thing. > > > Whatever is the real true, the ABSOLUTE TRUE, can't be revealed to us by > > just telling. > > Of course not! Even some of the comparitively lesser truths are failed by > mere words. There is enlightenment, a fragment of the true truth, conveyed > to us by the all in a moment of genuine, spontaneous laughter. I like to > laugh ',;~}~ > > > If we are not ready to accept it we will never know it. > > And when the right time comes - we know THE TRUE. We need to realise it > > ourselves. > > There can be truth in a falsehood - context is all in these things. What > remains un-said can be far more telling than anything contained in the words > themselves. Even simple sarcasm begins to demonstrate this. When we talk > with our closest friends, far more is said than could generally be conveyed > to 'an outsider' with the same words and gestures. > > Shaun aRe - I know what I mean, but words fail me ',;~}~ Exactly!!! > > *(call it what you will, call it the 'is'? Heheheheh - the un-nameable thing > behind the label.) Can I call it Shaun? Yes I can.... I can do whatever I want.....But then I have to take consequences es well.... Ohhhh... It's so complicated in its simplicity... Why don't we just keep it the way it is? It's easier.....Isn't it?...But....no rather not.....but....shhhh quiet....BUT!!!.... Risha ###### From: "pr" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <2815510b4c359f9fa520d981889ccf0a@news.teranews.com> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:36:21 +0200 Lines: 59 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: nld-dial-196-7-202-123.mweb.co.za Message-ID: <3f90611a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> X-Trace: 17 Oct 2003 23:37:30 +0200, nld-dial-196-7-202-123.mweb.co.za Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!uunet.co.za!news1.mweb.co.za!nld-dial-196-7-202-123.mweb.co.za Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9677 "arthealer" wrote in message news:2815510b4c359f9fa520d981889ccf0a@news.teranews.com... > > "pr" wrote in message > news:3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za... > > Nagarjuna wrote: > > "All Buddhas depend on two truths > > In order to preach the Dharma to sentient beings. > > The first is the wordly mundane truth, > > The second the truth of supreme meaning." > > > Hi peter, thanks for the time and energy you put into this post as i realize > it is not so easy to write about. i have written and rewritten replies but > can't ever seem to say what i want to impart. i agree with many points you > have made concerning the nature of language and symbols you did and > excellent job of it. may i ask you what it is you get out of this viewpoint > about the self. Why do you maintain it? It is a good talking point - and so much more than that. Because in my mind it is closer to the truth than the way most people think of themselves, as separate and rather islolated from what goes on around them. It is the antidote to thinking that the universe revolves around me. E.g. when my wife is angry I can look at it and ask myself how I contributed towards it. Once I am not separate, then the doctrine of "dependent arising" can come alive. I do not look for causes (and things to blame) but now ask the question "what made it possible for this or that to come into existence." What are the "pillars" which now support it? Things arise together and disappear together. There is a large amount of support not only in spiritual texts but also in literature and psychology that our normal way of seeing the world is evidence for us being insane on a grand scale. I happen to agree with them. Once the world goes on, with me just being one thing amongst a zillion others that happen at the same time, with no more importance than these other things, life becomes much less stressful. -- Namu Amida Butsu Peter Reber "Life knows its needs" ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.144.1.130 Message-ID: <3F9094CB.FD56BA70@shaw.ca> From: Rich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD telus.net_v5.0.1HS (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <2815510b4c359f9fa520d981889ccf0a@news.teranews.com> <3f90611a.0@news1.mweb.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:20:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1066440004 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:20:04 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:20:04 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!167.206.3.103.MISMATCH!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9684 Hi Peter, I mentioned at a distant time in a distant thread that I was disturbed that some great 'wise thoughts' were being turned into cheap commercials. What I see in your posts is truly 'thinking outside the box'. Sorry, all the Taco fans! When we constantly settle for the same old resolutions that never seem to get us closer to experiencing life (including each other) don't we notice that? I have heard the comment that 'we humans are mostly walking around 'semi-hypnotized' and it only takes a small bit of persuasion to push us towards this position or that one. If this is the case, then we need to shock ourselves awake and pay more attention to our interactions. Maybe the use of the same-old, same-old language (which creates our reality, right?) just says the same old thing......"You are very sleepy. You will agree to everything I say, don't think for yourself, and go to the mall." A friend once said to me, "When I have a choice of two directions on my life path, I choose the one that puts the knot in my stomach! Most people settle for the one with which they feel most comfortable. What a shame!" Trying to emulate that will give us more stubbed toes and, what the heck, this life isn't a practice run, or is it? Cheers Rich pr wrote: > > There is a large amount of support not only > in spiritual texts but also in literature and > psychology that our normal way of seeing the > world is evidence for us being insane on a grand > scale. I happen to agree with them. > Once the world goes on, with me just being one > thing amongst a zillion others that happen at the > same time, with no more importance than these > other things, life becomes much less stressful. > > -- > Namu Amida Butsu > Peter Reber > "Life knows its needs" ###### From: "Shaun Rimmer" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:39:12 +0100 Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8E7123.E367CCBE@ftel.co.uk> <3F8FB111.5183A665@ftel.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-152-37-231.range81-152.btcentralplus.com (81.152.37.231) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1066642563 28934151 81.152.37.231 (16 [170198]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!host81-152-37-231.range81-152.btcentralplus.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9782 "R. Bonk" wrote in message news:3F8FB111.5183A665@ftel.co.uk... > Shaun Rimmer wrote: > > > > "Richard Bonk" wrote in message > > Of course not! Even some of the comparitively lesser truths are failed by > > mere words. There is enlightenment, a fragment of the true truth, conveyed > > to us by the all in a moment of genuine, spontaneous laughter. I like to > > laugh ',;~}~ > > > > > If we are not ready to accept it we will never know it. > > > And when the right time comes - we know THE TRUE. We need to realise it > > > ourselves. > > > > There can be truth in a falsehood - context is all in these things. What > > remains un-said can be far more telling than anything contained in the words > > themselves. Even simple sarcasm begins to demonstrate this. When we talk > > with our closest friends, far more is said than could generally be conveyed > > to 'an outsider' with the same words and gestures. > > > > Shaun aRe - I know what I mean, but words fail me ',;~}~ > > Exactly!!! > > > > > > *(call it what you will, call it the 'is'? Heheheheh - the un-nameable thing > > behind the label.) > > Can I call it Shaun? Yes I can.... You certainly can, but, please don't! ',;~}~ > I can do whatever I want.....But then > I have to take consequences es well.... Ohhhh... It's so complicated in > its simplicity... Complicated? Do, or do not do, and live with it......... > Why don't we just keep it the way it is? It's easier.....Isn't > it?...But....no rather not.....but....shhhh quiet....BUT!!!.... It is the way it is, is it not? I'm off now! Shaun aRe ###### From: "gingerobyn" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:26:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.243.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1066951572 162.83.243.160 (Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:26:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:26:12 EDT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9916 my response may be out of date here, but i haven't been on line and wanted to share a quote which you reminded me of: "enlightenment for a wave is the moment the wave realizes it is water. at that moment all fear of death disppears." --thich nhat hanh have it up on my refridgerator as a reminder. "Richard Bonk" wrote in message news:3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk... > > It's like with rain. Rain is coming from ocean and changes into > individual drops. Each drop is unique. There are not two exactly same > drops. But in the end they join back into the ocean and become one with > ocan. Same with living beings. In this world they are separated from the > supreme and therefore they are individual "I" but only until they again > become part of the Supreme "I". > > Richard ###### From: "R. Bonk" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:50:30 +0100 Organization: FTEL Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3F98F5E6.2D526BD7@ftel.co.uk> References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: europa.ftel.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news-out.ftel.co.uk 1066989037 1477 172.16.2.98 (24 Oct 2003 09:50:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@ftel.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:50:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!news-out.ftel.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9932 gingerobyn wrote: > > my response may be out of date here, but i haven't been on line and wanted > to share a quote which you reminded me of: > > "enlightenment for a wave is the moment the wave realizes it is water. at > that moment all fear of death disppears." > > --thich nhat hanh But I am a rain drop, I have no waves.....boooo...it is sooooooo saaaaaad. Is there still any chance for me??? > > have it up on my refridgerator as a reminder. How often do you go to your refrigerator? I would rather put it on my computer screen (Because I am looking at it most of my time - and fridge I am visiting only sometimes - especially at nights when nobody is around....) > > "Richard Bonk" wrote in message > news:3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk... > > > > It's like with rain. Rain is coming from ocean and changes into > > individual drops. Each drop is unique. There are not two exactly same > > drops. But in the end they join back into the ocean and become one with > > ocan. Same with living beings. In this world they are separated from the > > supreme and therefore they are individual "I" but only until they again > > become part of the Supreme "I". > > > > Richard Risha ###### From: "gingerobyn" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk> <3F98F5E6.2D526BD7@ftel.co.uk> Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <2dzmb.5723$1C5.3401@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:23:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.83.245.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1067106238 162.83.245.186 (Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:23:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:23:58 EDT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:9978 > > But I am a rain drop, I have no waves.....boooo...it is sooooooo > saaaaaad. Is there still any chance for me??? > hee hee. of course. only sad when you are a teardrop, but even then, beautiful. you are a raindrop. . . you are a puddle. . . you are a pond . . . you are stream. . . you are a river. . . you are a lake. . . you are an ocean. . . and when the wind blows you are a wave. you are vapor. . . you are steam. . . you are a cloud. . . you are rain. . . ###### From: "R. Bonk" Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:44:06 +0000 Organization: FTEL Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3F9CDAD6.E58FEF04@ftel.co.uk> References: <3f878d88.0@news1.mweb.co.za> <3F8A90DF.87D29B66@ftel.co.uk> <3F98F5E6.2D526BD7@ftel.co.uk> <2dzmb.5723$1C5.3401@nwrdny02.gnilink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: europa.ftel.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news-out.ftel.co.uk 1067244256 6814 172.16.2.98 (27 Oct 2003 08:44:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@ftel.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:44:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!news-out.ftel.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:10018 gingerobyn wrote: > > > > > But I am a rain drop, I have no waves.....boooo...it is sooooooo > > saaaaaad. Is there still any chance for me??? > > > hee hee. of course. > only sad when you are a teardrop, but even then, beautiful. > > you are a raindrop. . . > you are a puddle. . . > you are a pond . . . > you are stream. . . > you are a river. . . > you are a lake. . . > you are an ocean. . . > and when the wind blows you are a wave. > you are vapor. . . > you are steam. . . > you are a cloud. . . > you are rain. . . I wish I could be a "Snowflake"! It's sooooooo nice......soft........cool....flying in the air....slowly falling down......and then melts if you touch it.....and makes you smile.... Risha ###### From: stuv@cix.co.uk (Stuart Vernon) Newsgroups: alt.healing.reiki Subject: Re: OT: Re: Does the self (or "I") exist? Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:26 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <3F9D6F09.41058D34@mn.rr.com> Reply-To: stuv@cix.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: public2-bolt3-3-cust91.manc.broadband.ntl.com (80.2.124.91) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067290003 36291278 80.2.124.91 (16 [41161]) X-News-Software: Ameol2 X-URL: http://www.ameol.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!public2-bolt3-3-cust91.manc.broadband.ntl.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.healing.reiki:10038 (Alex Barna) wrote: > http://www.theanimatrix.com/ Thanks, Alex .. as you see, I got it ... :) Stuart