From: skquinn@brokersys.com (Shawn K. Quinn - NO SOLICITING) Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: keyrings Date: 13 Mar 1998 23:04:15 GMT Organization: speaking for myself and not for IBS or HAL-PC Lines: 20 Approved: cesspool.of.crap@microsoft.com Message-ID: Reply-To: skquinn@brokersys.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ernie-31.brokersys.com X-Spammers: preferred well done X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.6 UNIX) Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp.texas.net!nntp1.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!skquinn ObKeyRingHack: I have these rubber "key identifier" rings that fit around the head of a key, for aiding in identifying which keys are which on a crowded keyring. I put these on my car keys and they make the thickness of the key just a bit too big to get them on the keyring using "normal" means. So... I jam one penny (US 1-cent coin) inside the middle of the keyring to try and keep it open. This works but doesn't provide enough clearance, so I then jam a second penny in with the first one. This forces enough of a gap to work with, and I get the keys on no problem after this. Once keys are on, I remove the pennies. Had I not thought of this, who knows what could have happened. -- Shawn K. Quinn - skquinn@brokersys.com - visit my home page at http://purl.oclc.org/net/skquinn/personal ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!ubnnews.unisource.ch!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: chip76@ix.netcom.com (Jeff Vinocur) Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 15:22:09 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 49 Approved: chip76@ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <350b9e8f.1582938@nntp.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vfg-pa5-24.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Mar 14 7:24:03 AM PST 1998 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 On 13 Mar 1998 23:04:15 GMT, skquinn@brokersys.com (Shawn K. Quinn - NO SOLICITING) wrote: :ObKeyRingHack: : [...] :key just a bit too big to get them on the keyring using "normal" :means. ObKeyRingHack: Having very large car keys (has anyone seen the recent Volvo keys? [1]), I was faced with a similar problem. I took my house key, which was not yet on the key ring, inserted the thin part of the key flatwise between the two parts of the ring, and twisted it 90 degrees. It levered the them apart (at a mechanical advantage of about 2.5:1, I'd say, and held them there. That was _almost_ enough space for the car key to move freely (it still had to be forced a fair bit, believe it or not). ObInProgressHack: The above procedure bent the key ring out of shape about 1 mm. Which, unfortunately, although not big enough for the keys to slide off, _is_ big enough for another smaller ring that is also on there to come off. I haven't come up with a viable solution. I already tried using clamps and pliers to force it back into shape. A small piece of duct tape around the ring is my current idea, but that interferes with removing/adding keys when desired. Any hints? [2] [1] ObMiniMeasurementHack: Not having a ruler handy, I had to come up with a universal standard so I could explain how big these keys are. Well, they are almost exactly the height of two 3.5" floppies stacked on top of each other. [2] The Volvo car key came on a mini-ring that was _not_ bent out of shape...does anyone know how they do that? I didn't realize the problem at the time and took it off that one to put it on my normal ring. Stupid idea. -- Jeff Vinocur chip76@ix.netcom.com http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3768/ ###### From: duncan@punk.net (Duncan Campbell) Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings Date: 15 Mar 1998 21:17:25 GMT Organization: The Punknet Internet Cooperative - superlative flexability Lines: 49 Approved: moderate@punk.net (because its there) Message-ID: <6ehgh5$g30$1@zinger.callamer.com> References: <350b9e8f.1582938@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: insider.punk.net X-Silly-Header: Kevin Philip Bonnnnng X-URL: http://www.punk.net/ Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.74.141.7!zinger.callamer.com!punk.net!duncan Jeff Vinocur wrote: > >ObInProgressHack: > >The above procedure bent the key ring out of shape about 1 >mm. Which, unfortunately, although not big enough for the >keys to slide off, _is_ big enough for another smaller ring >that is also on there to come off. I haven't come up with a >viable solution. I already tried using clamps and pliers to >force it back into shape. A small piece of duct tape around >the ring is my current idea, but that interferes with >removing/adding keys when desired. Any hints? [2] > >[2] The Volvo car key came on a mini-ring that was _not_ >bent out of shape...does anyone know how they do that? I >didn't realize the problem at the time and took it off that >one to put it on my normal ring. Stupid idea. >-- two suggestions. if using a standard keyring make sure the oversized key, while being inserted onto the ring, is as close to parallel to the plane of the ring as possible. _____ | | \ / / / |_| | \ / | /_/ instead of ------------------ | / \ | ---------- | | /_____\ /_/ |_| ----------------------- ------------------------------- the other suggestion is to get a nonstandard keyring -- one that unlatches with a twist or bend and has a hinge, allowing any size key to be added. i've used these as paper binding devices, which may well be what they're sold for. some of these will spill keys on the ground if thrown down. another is just to use the ring the keys come on (too late) by sliding your own keys on with the volvo key. or buy a honda. ObHack: digital compact cassettes (blank) are no longer available at my local retailers. a standard good quality cassette can be used as a DCC if the case is drilled *just so*, allowing me to get some use out of the least expensive digital tape recorder I've found to date. same scheme sometimes works for making svhs blanks from bulk rate vhs cassettes. try to avoid letting dust from the drilling process remain where it could later scrape your heads. duncan (wasting time again) ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!206.102.31.251!news.cmc.net!feeder.swcp.com!news.cyberport.com!not-for-mail From: tangent@SPAMCATCHER.cyberport.com (Warren Young) Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 04:49:28 GMT Organization: none Lines: 45 Approved: why@yes.ofcourse.com Message-ID: <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com> References: <350b9e8f.1582938@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 56k144-118.cyberport.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 chip76@ix.netcom.com (Jeff Vinocur) wrote: >On 13 Mar 1998 23:04:15 GMT, skquinn@brokersys.com (Shawn K. >Quinn - NO SOLICITING) wrote: > >:key just a bit too big to get them on the keyring using "normal" >:means. [snip levering split-ring for keys apart] >The above procedure bent the key ring out of shape about 1 >mm. Which, unfortunately, although not big enough for the >keys to slide off, _is_ big enough for another smaller ring >that is also on there to come off. I haven't come up with a >viable solution. I already tried using clamps and pliers to >force it back into shape. A small piece of duct tape around >the ring is my current idea, but that interferes with >removing/adding keys when desired. Any hints? [2] You might be able to put it in a vice and then heat it up -- a candle, a butane soldering iron or a blowtorch would work well. This should make it assume the shape you've forced it into with the vice, though it might also degrade some of the springiness of the keyring. I'm no metallurgist, sorry. ObKeyringHack: I keep two rings of keys to make it easier to tell certain groups of keys apart in the dark. But, just linking two rings together still made it slightly difficult to tell the rings apart. (Again, this is in the dark.) So, I took two old 1MB single-sided SIMMs (one of which was dead) and glued them together back-to-back with contact cement. The small holes in each end of the SIMMs lined up, each of which I ran a keyring through.. The doubled SIMM made the corners less sharp, and added some strength and looks. Since the SIMMs have nine chips each, it doesn't snag on things while I'm pulling it from my pocket like a three- or two-chip SIMM would. Result: With the SIMMs between the rings, I can just grab the stick and have each ring of keys fall toward the opposite side of my hand. It's geek-kitschy, too! = Warren -- http://www.cyberport.com/~tangent = = Remove the SPAMCATCHER to email. -- Finger me! ###### From: giff@va.pubnix.com (Frank Gifford) Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings Date: 17 Mar 1998 15:14:57 -0500 Organization: UUNET Technologies -- Fairfax, Virginia, USA Lines: 34 Approved: you@are_uu.net Message-ID: <6emlk1$kp4@crossbow.va.pubnix.com> References: <350b9e8f.1582938@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crossbow.va.pubnix.com Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!feeder.qis.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!ais.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.va.pubnix.com!not-for-mail In article , Joe Clancy wrote: >Very smooth. I've got an i960 chip that I'd like to put onto a keyring, >but have yet to locate a drill to put a hole through it so I can actually >affix it to the keyring. I think it would look nice and geeky-cool, too. >Any idea of how to do this without busting the chip into "millions of tiny >little pieces?" Take two small pieces of wood, about 1/4" thick or less - clamp on either side of the chip (snug, but not overly tight). Measure and mark where the hole should go on the wood. Start with a small drill bit, preferably one designed for hardwoods or metal (i.e. has more turns per inch). Put in a vice and drill smoothly and slowly through both pieces of wood and chip. You can then move up a drill bit size at a time to get the desired hole size. This should prevent burs on the chip and prevent it from splintering. BUT! I haven't tried this, you may want to try it on some other chip first... OH: Had an application where the user wanted a text box in Winders which had multiple words 'highlighted'. Well, I could select a region of text which shows it in reverse video, but I could only have one region at a time. The answer? Create my own font. The upper ASCII characters (the high bit set) were copies of the standard ASCII characters, but with the bits flipped. There was a little extra hassle in figuring out how the internal tables were done for the font, and there was extra work to be done in case the user wanted to 'cut and paste' this text, but the look was quite nice! -- giff@uu.net Too busy for a .sig ###### Newsgroups: alt.hackers From: jjclancy@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Joe Clancy) Subject: Re: keyrings Sender: news@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (news spool owner) Message-ID: Approved: sure Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:22:18 GMT References: <350b9e8f.1582938@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: picard.math.uwaterloo.ca Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 26 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!leto.ou.edu!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!kwon!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca!jjclancy In article <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com>, Warren Young wrote: >Result: With the SIMMs between the rings, I can just grab the stick >and have each ring of keys fall toward the opposite side of my hand. >It's geek-kitschy, too! Very smooth. I've got an i960 chip that I'd like to put onto a keyring, but have yet to locate a drill to put a hole through it so I can actually affix it to the keyring. I think it would look nice and geeky-cool, too. Any idea of how to do this without busting the chip into "millions of tiny little pieces?" ObHack: Getting said chip out of an old dead HP xterm. No, we're not talking about ZIF sockets here; this involved hacking and cutting and slicing around the other components on the mainboard. Now that it's out, I've filed down the sharp pins enough to make it acceptable as a keyring attachment. J. -- Joe Clancy / jjclancy@uwaterloo.ca ###### From: chip76@ix.netcom.com (Jeff Vinocur) Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 03:51:37 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 54 Approved: chip76@ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <351429ef.10658251@nntp.ix.netcom.com> References: <350b9e8f.1582938@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vfg-pa6-25.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Mar 17 7:53:37 PM PST 1998 X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news.he.net!Supernews73!supernews.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.154.70.8!news.webspan.net!ix.netcom.com!news On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:22:18 GMT, jjclancy@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Joe Clancy) wrote: :In article <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com>, :Warren Young wrote: : :>Result: With the SIMMs between the rings, I can just grab the stick :>and have each ring of keys fall toward the opposite side of my hand. :>It's geek-kitschy, too! : :Very smooth. I've got an i960 chip that I'd like to put onto a keyring, :but have yet to locate a drill to put a hole through it so I can actually :affix it to the keyring. I think it would look nice and geeky-cool, too. :Any idea of how to do this without busting the chip into "millions of tiny :little pieces?" Start with a very narrow bit and press very, very slowly. A drill press would be better than a hand drill, if you can get hold of one. ObFailedDrillingComputerPartsHack: I had an old hard drive that was well deceased. I thought that it resembled a clock in shape, and set out to make a clock out of it. This required drilling a hole through the center wide enough for the stem of the clock mechanism to stick through. I was going merilly along when the drill stopped going in. It turned out there were two causes for this. The first was that I had reached the motor, free to spin on essentially frictionless bearings, and spun it up to the drill speed so I wasn't doing any drilling. The second was that the metal was of such a high grade (I forget what the name of it is) that it would take a diamond bit or something to drill it. I ended up taking the entire hard drive apart into little pieces, drilling holes through those pieces that I could, and putting it back together...leaving out the actual motor. It's hanging up on my wall now. Very pretty, and definitely geeky enough for anybody. ObChildren'sToyHack: Speaking of dead hard drives...if you've got one that will spin up when connected to a power supply but otherwise is broken, break the heads off and affix a piece of paper to the disk. Turn it on and use different color markers to make fun concentric circular designs. (Did that make any sense?) -- Jeff Vinocur chip76@ix.netcom.com http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3768/ ###### From: ---nospam---mrjones@mindspring.com (Mark Haase) Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:53:59 -0500 Organization: WEBeam Lines: 58 Approved: Yes Message-ID: <---nospam---mrjones-1803981054000001@user-37kbov4.dialup.mindspring.com> References: <350b9e8f.1582938@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <6ehgh5$g30$1@zinger.callamer.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kbov4.dialup.mindspring.com X-Server-Date: 18 Mar 1998 15:51:06 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Path: ccw.ch!bali.dolphins.ch!news.planetc.com!newsfeed.usit.net!news-dc-1.sprintlink.net!news-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.com!---nospam---mrjones I dont want to make a suggestion as to how to put keys on the ring. But, my key chain works differently. here is my best ASCII rendering: +------+ / \ | | | | <-- this part is leather, the fob part. (monogrammed too!) \ / | | +------+ <--+ +------+ | +> C|======| | | | | +--- this part is metal. | | | | | \ / | | +--+ <--+ | +--- This little knob is attached to a spring loaded pin. Pulling on it opens up the ring. ( A large section too, see below. ) +------+ / \ | | | | \ / | | +------+ +------+ C|======| <--- now keys slip in here, even large ones. | | | | \ / +--+ Keys slip on and off easily. I got this as a present, but you can probably get it at any of those stores that specialize at monogramming. ObGraphicsHack: So I was making this nifty little logo for a web page as follows: a little globe with some words wrapped around it. So I used a 3d program to make a sphere, and I arranged the words around it. The result? Nothing was lined up right, and it looked like crap. So, what to do? I simply made a PICT with the words (and a color map of the earth behind them) and then I texture mapped that Pict onto the sphere. +--------------------------------------\ | Mark Haase \ +---------------------------------------/ | WEBeam >------>------> / | mrjones@mindspring.com \ | markhaase@mindspring.com \ | mhaase@pace.atl.ga.us / | / | /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ / |/ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / | \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings References: <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com> <6emlk1$kp4@crossbow.va.pubnix.com> Approved: by the Old ObHack Laundering Division. Organization: Organisation Against Organization. From: shri@cs.umass.edu (H.Shrikumar) NNTP-Posting-Host: eternity.cs.umass.edu X-NNTP-Posting-Host: eternity.cs.umass.edu Message-ID: <351016ee.0@rcfnews.cs.umass.edu> Date: 18 Mar 98 18:48:14 GMT Lines: 82 Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.belnet.be!news-penn.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.internetmci.com!199.0.65.142!news-feed1.tiac.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!boston-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!rcfnews.cs.umass.edu!shri Frank Gifford wrote, in news:<6emlk1$kp4@crossbow.va.pubnix.com> : >>Very smooth. I've got an i960 chip that I'd like to put onto a keyring, >>but have yet to locate a drill to put a hole through it so I can actually >>affix it to the keyring. I think it would look nice and geeky-cool, too. : >Take two small pieces of wood, about 1/4" thick or less - clamp on either >side of the chip (snug, but not overly tight). Measure and mark where >the hole should go on the wood. Start with a small drill bit, preferably >one designed for hardwoods or metal (i.e. has more turns per inch). While that's a good suggestion, drilling through ceramic (which I assume the chip is packaged in) can be very hard [sic]. You might also need some lubricant, a solution of camphor in coconut oil is often used while drilling through hard glass in India, but I am not sure how you can lay hands on those two ingredients here. BUT ... OTOH, even if you did drill a hole in the package successfully, I dont know how long it will last. A keyring fob is actually a very very very (did I say very?) difficult, demanding, heavy duty application. I once had an old 2708 EPROM, ceramic case quartz window and shining glory, which I mounted on an extra thick glass-epoxy copper clad. The PCB was just about the size of the chip and had a complete intact groundplane to which all the pins of the chips were soldered solidly to. There was an extra triangle of PCB material on pin 1 end of the chip, with a hole in it for the keyring. Geeky-cool, as you say. Even though the chip itself took no stress from the keys directly, the repeated collisions with the keys caused the ceramic to chip [sic] in a few months. So, YMMV. Maybe you can pot the chip in a transparent silicone casting. Or carefulyl shatter the ceramic and take the chip out (keeping the metal alloy pin-spider underneath it intact for strength) and laminate the critter in plastic. Now, that'd be cool. Now ... lets see what old ObHack can I find in my closet ... okay, there's my laundry pile ... ah, got one! Needed to do two loads of laundry under a tight time constraint, which meant that I had to switch loads in the washing machine just as soon as the first was done. Also had other things to do, (the way other things equally urgent always appoint themselves to be done at the same time as something urgent), -- so I could not make frequent trips to the basement to check. Then the old bulb lit up in a bubble over my head, and I remembered I had a power-line intercom still in the box. Unwrapped it, plugged one unit to a spare outlet net to the washer, and set it to channel 'A'. Plugged the other one in the apartment, set to channel 'A' --- and I had soothing washing machine sounds filling my life. "That's not much of a hack!" you say. Getting the intercom -- now, that was a minor hack. One bleary shut-eye sunday morning, AT&T called me up really early and asked me if I wanted to switch to them, and they'd give me an intercom as a bonus. I said "Yea, sure". The hack ? The fact is, I was already with AT&T. And now I'm with AT&T, and with a free stuff. They keep doing things like this every so often. They must really love me. -- //Shrikumar shri@cs.umass.edu ###### Path: ccw.ch!elna.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!sibyl.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.6.107.173!newsfeed.xcom.net!woodstock.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: David Jordan Newsgroups: alt.hackers Subject: Re: keyrings Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 19:26:29 BST Approved: Me! Message-ID: <9803220126.046p@lassie.demon.co.uk> References: <350dfea6.706326483@news.cyberport.com> <6emlk1$kp4@crossbow.va.pubnix.com> <351016ee.0@rcfnews.cs.umass.edu> X-Mail2News-User: dave@lassie.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: post-10.mail.demon.net!post.mail.demon.net!lassie.demon.co.uk X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 890535566 4309 dave lassie.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: ADMaN 1.7 Copyright 1995 S.T.Brown Lines: 54 On Wed, 18 Mar 98, H.Shrikumar wrote: > > Frank Gifford wrote, > in news:<6emlk1$kp4@crossbow.va.pubnix.com> : > > >>Very smooth. I've got an i960 chip that I'd like to put onto a keyring, > >>but have yet to locate a drill to put a hole through it so I can actually > >>affix it to the keyring. I think it would look nice and geeky-cool, too. > : > >Take two small pieces of wood, about 1/4" thick or less - clamp on either > >side of the chip (snug, but not overly tight). Measure and mark where > >the hole should go on the wood. Start with a small drill bit, preferably > >one designed for hardwoods or metal (i.e. has more turns per inch). > > While that's a good suggestion, drilling through ceramic (which > I assume the chip is packaged in) can be very hard [sic]. You ^^^^^^^^^ You don't say... I had a ceramic 486 on my keyring for a while. I now have *HALF* a SIMM, sliced neatly through the centre of one of the RAM chips and polished. You can see the layers of copper in the 4-layer PCB and the substrate in the IC. A whole SIMM was too big... Back to the 486... HSS bit in 20,000 RPM PCB drill - melted. Solid tungsten carbide bit in PCB drill - melted, shattered, stuck in ceiling. TC ceramic tile bit in 560W drill press - melted. ObHack: My mum works for a dentist... 1mm diamond tipped burr. I wouldn't like it anywhere near my mouth, but it's not too painful on a CPU. Straight through in around 20 seconds. Then I just cut off all the pins and smoothed and polished them until they were just flat dots on the underside of the chip. Dave. -- dave@lassie.demon.co.uk http://www.lassie.demon.co.uk jordandc@aston.ac.uk http://www.aston.ac.uk/~jordandc Amiga 4000 Cyberstorm 060/50 48MB 2GB-SCSI-II 2M-CV64 (And a Psion 3a...) ... Groucho Borg: "That's the silliest thing I ever assimilated..."