NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:45:00 -0600 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:45:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Lines: 125 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.18.133.20 X-Trace: sv3-l5EhZrKM+McBrD2OpNIpwNf0lTodYw02LW5fvHmSL1JCivSTBWqv9Vqid3rDAa+Y2w22R5LxJz9el8m!jNrI+HQQ3Cfpk2hp9G/9Ywlv9ZsLAO7t3YH0THib7FclUu4yAAfjS2Nar4N54SGZegr0d2LJMt6E!q1k= X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190255 The phone rings on a typical afternoon. The receptionist answers, then transfers the call to my phone. "Some kind of IT survey," she tells me. I know what it is...another Indian telemarketing boiler-room. I used to just brush them off. I'd just finished reading an article about HP firing their support staff in the US and moving all phone support to India. This time I decided to try a different approach. "Hello Mr. Peacock, I'm Sean from Sunrise Marketing. Would you have the time to answer a few..." Always an American name with a Hindustani accent. Dead giveaway. The oldest grandson does a great imitation of the same accent. "What was the name of your company?" I fired back, not letting him get very far into his script. "Sunrise Marketing. I have a few..." "I've never heard of your company. We have no record of ever dealing with you. How did you get my name?" Indians are taught to be polite. This is where the cultural difference starts showing. Someone in the US would know the call was already too far off track. "You participated in a survey before..." He's off script and improvising. The training will soon break down. He's at a real disadvantage because he's been told to act American but he doesn't really know what that means.. "No I didn't. I keep track of every call. You don't appear anywhere in our database. How did you get my name?" There is no database. He probably did get my name from a magazine subscription. He doesn't know any of that. A little anxiety is creeping into my voice, paranoia at the early stage. The theme is set for the rest of the call. "Your name came up on my computer. I don't know how it was obtained..." He's starting to flounder, he can't me back on script. "How did my name get in your computer? I'm very concerned about this, since I did not provide my name to you. Who put it in your computer?" Of course he has no idea, but he can't blow me off. "I'm sorry Mr. Peacock, I really can't say how..." "This is a very serious matter. Are you familiar with data privacy laws in the United States? There are strict criminal penalties for identity theft." I know he's lost, time to move up a level. "I think I better talk to your supervisor, before contacting any law enforcement authorities." The call is now a major international incident. I get transferred to someone else. Indians are pretty good about not dropping the line while pretending to transfer. Another cultural gap...Americans and Canadians would simply hang up by now. "Hello Mr. Peacock, my name is Thomas. What seems to..." I never let them finish a sentence. It's a momentum thing, gotta keep them responding to me. The call has already gone several times the usual limit. This is costing them money since they aren't making their quota. "I need to know who put me in your database. Where did you get my name?" I'm irate now. Of course, that's why I'm talking to the supervisor. I know he's really just another call center grunt that handled calls well and got a little promotion. As far as I'm concerned he has personal knowledge of every detail in his company. "We got your name from a prior survey..." He's starting a script. "No you didn't." Gotta shut down that line right away. "I keep track of every marketing call in a company database. Your company doesn't appear. Who gave you my name?" I'm looking for the sponsoring US connection. "Meridian Marketing in San Diego contracted with us for this survey." Wow, he really goofed. Telemarketers never give out their company name. Another cultural oopsie. I've struck paydirt! "San Diego? In California? Are you aware Governor Schwarzenegger recently signed a state law dealing with improper handling of personal data?" Sorta true, not remotely related to this, it's actually stealing credit card databases. He doesn't know that, but he probably knows who the Governator is. "Yes I know about that." He doesn't have a clue. "I can assure you that we are careful about our database. Now if I could transfer you to someone about the survey..." Slick, no wonder he made supervisor. Not this time, buddy. "I'll be happy to complete your survey, but first we need to solve this problem with your database. My name should not be there, so we need to find out how it got in." The spirit of cooperation, now "we" are both working on it. "I don't know how your name was added Mr. Peacock..." I'm getting to the end with him too, let's see if they have a level three. "Okay, let's bring in your computer help desk then. Could you transfer me to him?" I doubt he can, but it's worth a shot. "We don't have a help desk..." Sure they do, but not for customers. "Doesn't someone fix your PC? Who do you call if it breaks? Let me talk to him." No way this is going to happen, but I asked him a direct question he can't answer. "He isn't available right now." Meaning he's out of the English speaking loop. I've hit the end, except for one last zinger. "You do understand how serious this is? The country is at war. I can't disclose sensitive economic information to random callers without knowing how they obtained my name. For all I know you might be working for Iran or North Korea." I'm very upset now. Time for the well-known paranoid american stereotype. They all know we're crazy warmongers. "I can assure you we are not working for North Korea..." That one actually pissed him off. Another point for Team America. Not only have I cost him wasted time and money, but he's lost his cool. That's a no-no for a call center. At this point I tell him to remove my name and end the call. No survey. I figure that's about as far as I can go. Plus I ran out of time. The whole office was listening and laughing in the background. One interesting sidelight: I did the same scenario with a telemarketer from Quebec. I managed to get the sponsor from her too, but when I got to North Korea she really freaked. "WE ARE IN CANADA, IF YOU CONSIDER THAT FOREIGN!" Then she hung up on me. So remember: that next call about how many servers you plan to buy next year, the answer goes straight to the mullahs in Tehran running the A-bomb project... Jack Peacock ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:59:02 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:15h+d42B7ckDhKRvZX6VrcvqNO0= References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!140.99.99.194.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190302 On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 10:45:00 -0800, "Jack Peacock" wrote: [huge snip] > So remember: that next call about how many servers you plan to buy next > year, the answer goes straight to the mullahs in Tehran running the A-bomb > project... Wonderful. Thank you. Giles. ###### From: Andrew Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:09:18 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-224.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190393 Jack Peacock wrote: > "Stimpy" wrote in message [..] >>...and how much of your time did it cost to waste their time? >> > My time wasn't wasted. They don't call back, for me or anyone else > in the office, so the cost of time spent has returned a positive > ROI. On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost > effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. Why do you want to do that? You seem to assume a priori that "offshore outsourcing" is a Bad Thing, and that everyone here would agree with you. I certainly don't, any more than I would agree that replacing human ditch diggers with mechanical backhhoes is a bad thing. Free trade, even in services, is not a zero-sum game. If another company in another conutry can perform a service more efficiently, then that is where the work should be done. And in the long term it benefits everyone. I thought your bit was amusing, and I have no problem with abusing telemarketers, survey-takers, and other forms of spammers. But their country of origin is irrelevant. > What happens if 10% or more of those calls went the same way, how > long would the call centers in Mumbai stay in business? Presumably they would adapt their methods and continue to prosper. andrew@lod.com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 07:36:27 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 04 13:02:00 GMT Message-ID: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> Lines: 58 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.221 X-Trace: sv3-Z27FaF0hsszHUfFBA4szhN02ZvZQiC3kcxi7FS6/8+keze2GEXw88mS6QDeEeBqLKtQE2YgF5fsbYBE!bfqP78aRbbmXf08jvKs6G1T5X0MPMyrDjzqtwof7zjnrAygzER65SEtt/AB+iQCuVQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190426 In article , Andrew wrote: >Jack Peacock wrote: >> "Stimpy" wrote in message > >[..] > >>>...and how much of your time did it cost to waste their time? >>> >> >> My time wasn't wasted. They don't call back, for me or anyone else in the >> office, so the cost of time spent has returned a positive ROI. On a macro >> scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost effectiveness of offshore >> outsourcing. > >Why do you want to do that? Somebody has to start saying no to wasting the time of people who want to be productive. India still need to learn about real productivity and make-work. All of these coldcock calls are make-work. > >You seem to assume a priori that "offshore outsourcing" is a Bad Thing, It is if none of it is productive!!!!! Look, you can have your computer do some analyses for somebody who needs a number to make the Best Theory in the World or you can have it run the null job. In both cases, the CPU is busy, but not both are productive. >and that everyone here would agree with you. I certainly don't, any more >than I would agree that replacing human ditch diggers with mechanical >backhhoes is a bad thing. Free trade, even in services, is not a >zero-sum game. If another company in another conutry can perform a >service more efficiently, then that is where the work should be done. >And in the long term it benefits everyone. It is destructive if the goals are work prevention. > >I thought your bit was amusing, and I have no problem with abusing >telemarketers, survey-takers, and other forms of spammers. But their >country of origin is irrelevant. > >> What happens if >> 10% or more of those calls went the same way, how long would the call >> centers in Mumbai stay in business? > >Presumably they would adapt their methods and continue to prosper. In an ideal world, they would begin to do something productive rather than waste everybody's time, including their own. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Date: 24 Nov 04 10:12:10 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <799.824T543T6123480@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> <5f2dnWY6mrMxVD7cRVn-rQ@mpowercom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-695.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.esat.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190438 In article <5f2dnWY6mrMxVD7cRVn-rQ@mpowercom.net>, peacock@simconv.com (Jack Peacock) writes: >I don't hear many claims (not a single one, actually) that offshore >outsourcing led to improved service. But then, why should you? The purpose of outsourcing is to reduce costs, not improve service. If marketing is doing its job, it'll be using some of that saved money to convince the lusers that service isn't important as long as the product looks cool. Besides, if it breaks, you're supposed to throw it away and buy the latest model, aren't you? -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Stimpy" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 16:31:22 -0000 Lines: 12 Message-ID: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> References: X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de xcNy8yFeTzBbNAv8V2nyHwx1ddbKE4w7dg9F++JOif07Pxg3eL X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190367 Jack Peacock wrote: > > > > So remember: that next call about how many servers you plan to buy > next year, the answer goes straight to the mullahs in Tehran running > the A-bomb project... ...and how much of your time did it cost to waste their time? ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:32:22 -0600 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:32:19 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.18.133.20 X-Trace: sv3-pJ14BzgyePkEvjCLh9D8ZzcLmo3u84Gr5QjDqvycnWZtWAynJHwmmI411BswgZyqeomDUp8AgRXrTaW!mJ01k/ZWvLGGGbB2xK80aW9O17wn2l70HolPBDZJTO9c5SheyBtELicyBGSio3OnBDhgbDk7oNZY!+64= X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190392 "Stimpy" wrote in message news:30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de... > Jack Peacock wrote: >> >> >> >> So remember: that next call about how many servers you plan to buy >> next year, the answer goes straight to the mullahs in Tehran running >> the A-bomb project... > > ...and how much of your time did it cost to waste their time? > My time wasn't wasted. They don't call back, for me or anyone else in the office, so the cost of time spent has returned a positive ROI. On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. I don't consider that to be a waste at all. What happens if 10% or more of those calls went the same way, how long would the call centers in Mumbai stay in business? Jack Peacock ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 17:37:16 -0600 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 15:37:16 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response Message-ID: <5f2dnWY6mrMxVD7cRVn-rQ@mpowercom.net> Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.18.133.20 X-Trace: sv3-BNCIl+TyUtabjyIXeV5n/IQ4NTB8yzTDvu4CPNjZup7FmzLlXg/GGk9z3ddE/RL5H36tN3TwlindBzI!KW42lK8wbxRDEptVoFyeIGJMbjnvNvtXzfCRdXNeUkx5xTAGhwHdIqjm/A8aba03jwfTcXyGmZOZ!mKQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190397 "Andrew" wrote in message news:co0cec03196@news2.newsguy.com... > You seem to assume a priori that "offshore outsourcing" is a Bad Thing, I don't have to assume, I learned the hard way when calling for support. An hour to struggle through poor comprehension and virtually no training on his part, illusory victory when he finally concedes the router is dead, then informs me that although it is under warranty there are no replacements and no recourse to get it fixed in less than 6-8 weeks, when the next batch of current returns gets fixed. Nor is there a manager/supervisor/higher level to escalate the problem. "Dell Hell" was bad enough, but it's starting to look good next to what I can expect from offshore support. It is my firm belief that the best way to handle the problem is to make it impossible for the companies that use these facilities to hide the true costs. They wasted my time, so I return the favor. I don't hear many claims (not a single one, actually) that offshore outsourcing led to improved service. Jack Peacock ###### From: "Stimpy" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:24:19 -0000 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 80qO4xU8eZTLVEYfdVDv6AYc3p2bHpDLh9q6Ka2+zQvHcP65Em X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190477 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost >>> effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. >> >> Why do you want to do that? > > Somebody has to start saying no to wasting the time of people > who want to be productive. India still need to learn about > real productivity and make-work. All of these coldcock calls > are make-work. Doesn't matter... It's still a business... A business which could equally be carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular company are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were they to be calling from New York or London ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <0lk5oc.d9q.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 32 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101427202 193.217.159.243 (Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:00:02 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!news.powertech.no!news.eunet.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190486 In article <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de>, Stimpy wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>> On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost >>>> effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. >>> >>> Why do you want to do that? >> >> Somebody has to start saying no to wasting the time of people >> who want to be productive. India still need to learn about >> real productivity and make-work. All of these coldcock calls >> are make-work. > >Doesn't matter... It's still a business... A business which could equally be >carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular company >are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were they >to be calling from New York or London I give them the choice to PAY for my time; and I am pretty nice about it too, I give the preferential rate I only give my best clients. $100/hr, units of 1/4 hr, payable by credit card or giro. After all, I will be giving advice that is pretty similar to what I am doing for a living. But they don't appreciate this either. And it seems I have thrown a wedge in their multiple-choice screens. I am not "unwilling to cooperate"; quite on the contrary; I'll be more than happy to answer. On their dollar. No interviews have proceeded very far. They don't seem to value the advice I can give them. -- mrr ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:32:33 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 04 12:57:42 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.254 X-Trace: sv3-LsVTUfZN80bFL/rS5M/ZyGc7TnYHaBBTNYUofEAEeuTCSsEJ00ROIz9HK7B8ni2x//kPLJYjXHoi8ug!dgM3eCdjcL4O9ZHMPjhfK6BgfZsptXMn8sdb3DsY+DOWveopmf6IZiziSHHaRiMacw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190496 In article <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de>, "Stimpy" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>> On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost >>>> effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. >>> >>> Why do you want to do that? >> >> Somebody has to start saying no to wasting the time of people >> who want to be productive. India still need to learn about >> real productivity and make-work. All of these coldcock calls >> are make-work. > >Doesn't matter... It's still a business... No, it's not. It's a scam--it's legal, but still a scam for the sole purpose of extracting money out of your pocket and putting it in theirs. NOTHING is produced, let alone anything useful. There is absolutely no long-term business plan in place. This is all a short-term, grab-the-money-and-run activity. If you want a thriving economy that will last for centuries, then you do things that are productive. > .. A business which could equally be >carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular company >are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were they >to be calling from New York or London Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. If India wishes to become any kind of computing knowledge center, then had better start to learn what productive means. So far, they haven't. But these people are not stupid and won't be relying on this flavor of idiocy for long. They'll gladly extract the cash flow from corporations who think that coldcock calls is the only way to do business, but these companies will not be around in five years. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Stimpy" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:53:48 -0000 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de> References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de f40eiYqNkDZzeC4xId0YZggAQCQbfkAgYhWuntZElQS1BG0yFp X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!newsfeed.bit.nl!newsfeed.bit.nl!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190501 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> .. A business which could equally be >> carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular >> company are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as >> objectionable were they to be calling from New York or London > > Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. Well it's not in London because cold-calling is forbidden in the UK if the recipient has signed up to the Telephone Preference Service. Junk-call caompanies have got round this by relocating outside the EU ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 66 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 08:00:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101542403 193.217.159.243 (Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:00:03 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:00:03 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190515 In article , wrote: >In article <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de>, > "Stimpy" wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>>> On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost >>>>> effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. >>>> >>>> Why do you want to do that? >>> >>> Somebody has to start saying no to wasting the time of people >>> who want to be productive. India still need to learn about >>> real productivity and make-work. All of these coldcock calls >>> are make-work. >> >>Doesn't matter... It's still a business... > >No, it's not. It's a scam--it's legal, but still a scam for >the sole purpose of extracting money out of your pocket and >putting it in theirs. NOTHING is produced, let alone anything >useful. There is absolutely no long-term business plan in >place. This is all a short-term, grab-the-money-and-run activity. That is hitting India pretty hard, considering they educate more Real Engineers than the US; but only a handful of lawyers. That such outfits may exist in India is another matter. >If you want a thriving economy that will last for centuries, then >you do things that are productive. > >> .. A business which could equally be >>carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular company >>are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were they >>to be calling from New York or London > >Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. If India >wishes to become any kind of computing knowledge center, then >had better start to learn what productive means. So far, they >haven't. But these people are not stupid and won't be relying >on this flavor of idiocy for long. They'll gladly extract the >cash flow from corporations who think that coldcock calls >is the only way to do business, but these companies will not >be around in five years. Somethimes you have to go ahead and do the cold-calls. To be successful you need a great deal of social antennae combined with stamina. If the US corporation let what we call "distant cultural relation" do the call it is the corporation at fault. I have a very bad feeling about how the US is coping right now. Saddeled with an expensive war, a lingering recession, a bad raw materials squeeze and to top it off it seems that the US dollar is losing it's status of seniority currency right as we speak. And a lot of it is down to how the businesses behave. It seems the businesses aren't able to do the outsourcing right. Aroung here everyone embrace the chance to develop business with India in software, and to do production in China. Our Indian and Pakistani immigrants are suddenly becoming very valuable. It is a sign of the times when the daily jumbo to New York closes down, and we have routes to Singapore, Hong Kong and Lahore instead. -- mrr ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 06:49:26 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 04 12:14:25 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.45 X-Trace: sv3-RJBCK/77azNzEVlHaDSv9tjlLP5WG34RJBVqsEIGM/RGfFJb5nyRPEHuCHSS3mHfM8D102WnATa+d3w!lmdGdb/QJ9hIwV7HRgeqvRtBlzoFllwuZPZcCqZL/EPwaaPCKNU+2eRMZWx3kh4s X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190519 In article <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de>, "Stimpy" wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>> .. A business which could equally be >>> carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular >>> company are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as >>> objectionable were they to be calling from New York or London >> >> Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. > >Well it's not in London because cold-calling is forbidden in the UK if the >recipient has signed up to the Telephone Preference Service. Junk-call >caompanies have got round this by relocating outside the EU Now think about why it became illegal. The only conclusion is that the prospective customers got pissed off and so annoyed they resorted to SPHBs (super PHB) to deal with the problem. Any company that hires outside side help to do this kind of calling doesn't want to sell their stuff for long. I know that customer satisfaction and goodwill are swear words in marketing departments, but that, too, shall pass. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 07:05:05 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 04 12:30:04 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 107 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.45 X-Trace: sv3-qPg++9rkoa3nhBlCXg+QQl7smtdYEs6iHKbUbuMJrQabJ8TQ3uUYhG1HmJn4A+K6U+0IJSWo7+fu+ZI!pBJ6SEsl9anx+j3bb8W1dM3OgRwuJXtmnbs7tq3xNIhKxNc0rdWR8ub85nvpMK7+ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190520 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de>, >> "Stimpy" wrote: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>>>> On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost >>>>>> effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. >>>>> >>>>> Why do you want to do that? >>>> >>>> Somebody has to start saying no to wasting the time of people >>>> who want to be productive. India still need to learn about >>>> real productivity and make-work. All of these coldcock calls >>>> are make-work. >>> >>>Doesn't matter... It's still a business... >> >>No, it's not. It's a scam--it's legal, but still a scam for >>the sole purpose of extracting money out of your pocket and >>putting it in theirs. NOTHING is produced, let alone anything >>useful. There is absolutely no long-term business plan in >>place. This is all a short-term, grab-the-money-and-run activity. > >That is hitting India pretty hard, considering they educate more >Real Engineers than the US; but only a handful of lawyers. But with the kind of government that India has, would any of that kind of lawsuit hold up? > >That such outfits may exist in India is another matter. I'm starting to try to collect books about India so I can figure out how the culture will hobble engineering that comes out of there. > >>If you want a thriving economy that will last for centuries, then >>you do things that are productive. >> >>> .. A business which could equally be >>>carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular company >>>are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were they >>>to be calling from New York or London >> >>Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. If India >>wishes to become any kind of computing knowledge center, then >>had better start to learn what productive means. So far, they >>haven't. But these people are not stupid and won't be relying >>on this flavor of idiocy for long. They'll gladly extract the >>cash flow from corporations who think that coldcock calls >>is the only way to do business, but these companies will not >>be around in five years. > >Somethimes you have to go ahead and do the cold-calls. Sure. But not from a list that is garnered from a telephone book. It is advantageous to pick your customers and not sell to any old fogey that walks in off the net. Note that I'm talking about serious computing work at the moment. > ..To be >successful you need a great deal of social antennae combined with >stamina. If the US corporation let what we call "distant cultural >relation" do the call it is the corporation at fault. I thought I was making that [coporation's fault] clear. > >I have a very bad feeling about how the US is coping right now. I see it as good news..painful, but good. >Saddeled with an expensive war, a lingering recession, a bad >raw materials squeeze and to top it off it seems that the US >dollar is losing it's status of seniority currency right as we >speak. And a lot of it is down to how the businesses behave. Exactly. They haven't had a wakeup call since the oil embargo in the early 70s. > >It seems the businesses aren't able to do the outsourcing right. That's because knowledge of how to do things is not considered important; AAMOF, a lot of managers seem to consider this a PITA that needs to be excised. >Aroung here everyone embrace the chance to develop business with >India in software, and to do production in China. Our Indian and >Pakistani immigrants are suddenly becoming very valuable. The question is are you at the point we were in the 80s or more advanced in this evolution of business? ...and I don't know how to explain what I jurst wrote. Kick me if it's confusing. > >It is a sign of the times when the daily jumbo to New York closes >down, and we have routes to Singapore, Hong Kong and Lahore instead. Doesn't that have something to do with all the labor problems (which implies bottom line problems) our side of the airline industry is having? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "David Wade" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 17:03:15 -0000 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <30rqheF33l90mU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de q//FmEoYgzG7gh6Uj0nAugEOfgJBT+5/28SquEuJXJDJKnQuE= X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190534 wrote in message news:XdSdnRA4p8pK6jXcRVn-qw@rcn.net... > In article <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de>, > "Stimpy" wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >>> .. A business which could equally be > >>> carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular > >>> company are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as > >>> objectionable were they to be calling from New York or London > >> > >> Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. > > > >Well it's not in London because cold-calling is forbidden in the UK if the > >recipient has signed up to the Telephone Preference Service. Junk-call > >caompanies have got round this by relocating outside the EU > But they are still calling on behalf of a UK company, so its still illegal. Unless of course the site the whol operation outside the UK > Now think about why it became illegal. The only conclusion is that > the prospective customers got pissed off and so annoyed they > resorted to SPHBs (super PHB) to deal with the problem. Any company > that hires outside side help to do this kind of calling doesn't want > to sell their stuff for long. I know that customer satisfaction and > goodwill are swear words in marketing departments, but that, > too, shall pass. > > > /BAH > > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 126 Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 21:00:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101589204 193.217.159.243 (Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:00:04 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 22:00:04 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.powertech.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190538 In article , wrote: >In article , > Morten Reistad wrote: >>In article , wrote: >>>In article <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de>, >>> "Stimpy" wrote: [snip indian callers] >>>place. This is all a short-term, grab-the-money-and-run activity. >> >>That is hitting India pretty hard, considering they educate more >>Real Engineers than the US; but only a handful of lawyers. > >But with the kind of government that India has, would any >of that kind of lawsuit hold up? India is the world's largest democracy, and just proved that yet again by a peaceful transition to a Congress[the party]-led governement earlier this year. It was a surprise protest vote. I truly admit India has a lot of democratic shortcomings, among them a very chaotic executive branch. The other parts of the open society are in place. The judiciary works, more or less, legislature and press are also functioning excellently, considering that this is a system under severe stress from poverty, population growth and a general inclination to chaos. (Indians share that trait with Italians). There is corruption all right, mostly in commerce and as petty hand money to lower-level officials. India has a pretty good record of getting the large cases prosecuted though. >> >>That such outfits may exist in India is another matter. > >I'm starting to try to collect books about India so I can >figure out how the culture will hobble engineering that >comes out of there. The problem has been with the socialist tendencies in the economic policy, with a propensity to regulate everything; together with a screaming lack of infrastructure everywhere. India is at a point where ANY external business is good business, because the proceeds will become seed money to lots of good projects. >>>If you want a thriving economy that will last for centuries, then >>>you do things that are productive. >>> >>>> .. A business which could equally be >>>>carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular >company >>>>are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were >they >>>>to be calling from New York or London >>> >>>Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. If India >>>wishes to become any kind of computing knowledge center, then >>>had better start to learn what productive means. So far, they >>>haven't. But these people are not stupid and won't be relying >>>on this flavor of idiocy for long. They'll gladly extract the >>>cash flow from corporations who think that coldcock calls >>>is the only way to do business, but these companies will not >>>be around in five years. >> >>Somethimes you have to go ahead and do the cold-calls. > >Sure. But not from a list that is garnered from a telephone >book. It is advantageous to pick your customers and not sell >to any old fogey that walks in off the net. Note that I'm >talking about serious computing work at the moment. Why not? Or would you rather google for leads? >> ..To be >>successful you need a great deal of social antennae combined with >>stamina. If the US corporation let what we call "distant cultural >>relation" do the call it is the corporation at fault. > >I thought I was making that [coporation's fault] clear. > >> >>I have a very bad feeling about how the US is coping right now. > >I see it as good news..painful, but good. You really have an axe to grind with the US corporations!. >>Saddeled with an expensive war, a lingering recession, a bad >>raw materials squeeze and to top it off it seems that the US >>dollar is losing it's status of seniority currency right as we >>speak. And a lot of it is down to how the businesses behave. > >Exactly. They haven't had a wakeup call since the oil embargo >in the early 70s. >> >>It seems the businesses aren't able to do the outsourcing right. > >That's because knowledge of how to do things is not considered >important; AAMOF, a lot of managers seem to consider this a PITA >that needs to be excised. > >>Aroung here everyone embrace the chance to develop business with >>India in software, and to do production in China. Our Indian and >>Pakistani immigrants are suddenly becoming very valuable. > >The question is are you at the point we were in the 80s or more >advanced in this evolution of business? ...and I don't know how >to explain what I jurst wrote. Kick me if it's confusing. Scandinavia is just waking up to the role as "playing america" to some third world countries. >>It is a sign of the times when the daily jumbo to New York closes >>down, and we have routes to Singapore, Hong Kong and Lahore instead. > >Doesn't that have something to do with all the labor problems (which >implies bottom line problems) our side of the airline industry is having? And the plain costs of operating something in the US. A combination of US costs, FAA, Labour relations, inept corporations and tightening of security will lead to a lot fewer destinations with direct air links to the US, and the need to change planes to get anywhere on a different continent. -- mrr ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Date: 28 Nov 04 11:03:09 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1014.828T484T6634281@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de> <30rqheF33l90mU1@uni-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-099.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news4 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190581 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: >But that's the problem with how people are running businesses these >days. I don't understand this attitude. >"Any action is OK as long as it's not [quite] illegal." WTF happened >to "If I piss of my future and current customers, I'm not going >to have a pot to piss in next year." "Customers"? That is soooo last week. The proper term now is "consumers", indicating their proper status as flocks of sheep who can be herded and fleeced time and time again. Besides, the whole thing became irrelevant when the head honchos figured out how to bail out (with a golden parachute), taking the pot with them, while buying off enough politicians to ensure they wouldn't be pursued. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 06:49:31 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 04 12:14:19 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 194 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.89 X-Trace: sv3-JajWM3f9O1LyoFRambo8G+4IQ4zwISeSyPWkBrIdrrMaYA/8rjDLxpIPpl+NWW6txLRr6d7EuinSd37!fo6gpshUNk+aYzkl25U8Ldq4g0uVoeSLN2C4g0me4m8akGN/AHnZnpQfhwvvTa4t5w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190569 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article , >> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>In article , wrote: >>>>In article <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de>, >>>> "Stimpy" wrote: >[snip indian callers] >>>>place. This is all a short-term, grab-the-money-and-run activity. >>> >>>That is hitting India pretty hard, considering they educate more >>>Real Engineers than the US; but only a handful of lawyers. >> >>But with the kind of government that India has, would any >>of that kind of lawsuit hold up? > >India is the world's largest democracy, and just proved that >yet again by a peaceful transition to a Congress[the party]-led >governement earlier this year. It was a surprise protest vote. > >I truly admit India has a lot of democratic shortcomings, among them >a very chaotic executive branch. The other parts of the open society >are in place. The judiciary works, more or less, legislature and press >are also functioning excellently, considering that this is a system under >severe stress from poverty, population growth and a general inclination to >chaos. (Indians share that trait with Italians). And they have an economy that is based on payoffs in order to get anything done. That is a huge drain on production since a percentage of the cost does nothing other than keep deliberate maliciouness at bay. > >There is corruption all right, mostly in commerce and as petty hand >money to lower-level officials. India has a pretty good record of >getting the large cases prosecuted though. But those large cases got started on a basis of the smaller payoffs. It's a pyramid scheme that doesn't last (I'm still talking about long-term production of usefulness) because the sale of one widget supplies money to a set of people whose population is articficially bloated. IOW, instead of requiring paying 5 people to make the widget, the payoff infrastructure requires paying 50 people. I'm reading about North Korea, a book written by some US foreign policy wank. In trying to be "fair" about North Korea, he lauded the fact that their agriculture was mechanized. Then in the next sentence, he noted that huge percentage of the male population was in the military and assigned to the farms. That three males setting around watching the corn^Wrice grow and doing nothing productive but using up the returns of that production they're watching. >>> >>>That such outfits may exist in India is another matter. >> >>I'm starting to try to collect books about India so I can >>figure out how the culture will hobble engineering that >>comes out of there. > >The problem has been with the socialist tendencies in the >economic policy, with a propensity to regulate everything; together >with a screaming lack of infrastructure everywhere. There's infrastructure but it's based on payoffs. This excludes anybody from starting a new venture who doesn't know the undocumented rules of business engagement. It's an effective road block to long-term growth. > >India is at a point where ANY external business is good business, because >the proceeds will become seed money to lots of good projects. But their economic culture is based on activities that are designed to minimize any possiblity of growth. Note that this isn't just India. It looks to me like anything that starts to regulate socialist ideas turn into quicksand. > >>>>If you want a thriving economy that will last for centuries, then >>>>you do things that are productive. >>>> >>>>> .. A business which could equally be >>>>>carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular >>company >>>>>are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were >>they >>>>>to be calling from New York or London >>>> >>>>Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. If India >>>>wishes to become any kind of computing knowledge center, then >>>>had better start to learn what productive means. So far, they >>>>haven't. But these people are not stupid and won't be relying >>>>on this flavor of idiocy for long. They'll gladly extract the >>>>cash flow from corporations who think that coldcock calls >>>>is the only way to do business, but these companies will not >>>>be around in five years. >>> >>>Somethimes you have to go ahead and do the cold-calls. >> >>Sure. But not from a list that is garnered from a telephone >>book. It is advantageous to pick your customers and not sell >>to any old fogey that walks in off the net. Note that I'm >>talking about serious computing work at the moment. > >Why not? Or would you rather google for leads? Using one neuron and google would provide a list of prospects that have a higher probability of a sale. > >>> ..To be >>>successful you need a great deal of social antennae combined with >>>stamina. If the US corporation let what we call "distant cultural >>>relation" do the call it is the corporation at fault. >> >>I thought I was making that [coporation's fault] clear. >> >>> >>>I have a very bad feeling about how the US is coping right now. >> >>I see it as good news..painful, but good. > >You really have an axe to grind with the US corporations!. I hate anything that is work prevention. I have yet to see a union not have that as its first hidden goal. > >>>Saddeled with an expensive war, a lingering recession, a bad >>>raw materials squeeze and to top it off it seems that the US >>>dollar is losing it's status of seniority currency right as we >>>speak. And a lot of it is down to how the businesses behave. >> >>Exactly. They haven't had a wakeup call since the oil embargo >>in the early 70s. >>> >>>It seems the businesses aren't able to do the outsourcing right. >> >>That's because knowledge of how to do things is not considered >>important; AAMOF, a lot of managers seem to consider this a PITA >>that needs to be excised. >> >>>Aroung here everyone embrace the chance to develop business with >>>India in software, and to do production in China. Our Indian and >>>Pakistani immigrants are suddenly becoming very valuable. >> >>The question is are you at the point we were in the 80s or more >>advanced in this evolution of business? ...and I don't know how >>to explain what I jurst wrote. Kick me if it's confusing. > >Scandinavia is just waking up to the role as "playing america" to >some third world countries. Yea, I'm just starting to read a book about the UN and its role in the end of colonialism (written in 1964). It's not clear to me that the notion ended at all. Those who demaned independence seemed to slue to becoming a perpetrator of its own local colonialism as soon as they got self-rule. > >>>It is a sign of the times when the daily jumbo to New York closes >>>down, and we have routes to Singapore, Hong Kong and Lahore instead. >> >>Doesn't that have something to do with all the labor problems (which >>implies bottom line problems) our side of the airline industry is having? > >And the plain costs of operating something in the US. That's exactly why we need an economic hit. People have been spoiled for too long and have forgotten how to spend money wisely. > >A combination of US costs, FAA, Labour relations, inept corporations >and tightening of security will lead to a lot fewer destinations with >direct air links to the US, and the need to change planes to get >anywhere on a different continent. It's going to get worse. Our beloved dictator wannabe, a.k.a. Kennedy and his group of Democrats, are now starting the usual mouth activities that preclude another large hike in minimum wage. He always does this at the exactly wrong time of the US' economic cycles. I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that this timing is no accident and that the hidden agenda is to destroy the Union. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 07:19:25 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de> <30rqheF33l90mU1@uni-berlin.de> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 04 12:44:13 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.89 X-Trace: sv3-Znqyfu5FI0O4ihoXC9BZXy/31uZFfxYCR7iFu1C+7lonrKJ66JymLij/TGLilW8lLJLrHvMHQggtH0l!ORacBB6LGgj3cOz3IRdEcQdew9Nufnk6JaHF3Dl6TdBGDZx1m9urx1GXcYpBGXWWKA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190570 In article <30rqheF33l90mU1@uni-berlin.de>, "David Wade" wrote: > > wrote in message news:XdSdnRA4p8pK6jXcRVn-qw@rcn.net... >> In article <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de>, >> "Stimpy" wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >>> .. A business which could equally be >> >>> carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular >> >>> company are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as >> >>> objectionable were they to be calling from New York or London >> >> >> >> Sigh! Now ask yourself why it's not in NYC or London. >> > >> >Well it's not in London because cold-calling is forbidden in the UK if >the >> >recipient has signed up to the Telephone Preference Service. Junk-call >> >caompanies have got round this by relocating outside the EU >> >But they are still calling on behalf of a UK company, >so its still illegal. >Unless of course the site the whol operation outside the UK But that's the problem with how people are running businesses these days. I don't understand this attitude. "Any action is OK as long as it's not [quite] illegal." WTF happened to "If I piss of my future and current customers, I'm not going to have a pot to piss in next year." Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> From: floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) Organization: __________ Message-ID: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> User-Agent: gnus 5.10.6/XEmacs 21.4.15/Linux 2.6.5 Cancel-Lock: sha1:Zba/AZEzAu0kbhyOX9UOWoKE4CY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 21 Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:56:49 -0900 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.124.156.199 X-Trace: eagle.america.net 1101707940 209.124.156.199 (Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:59:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 00:59:00 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.n-ix.net!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder1.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!falcon.america.net!eagle.america.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190588 CBFalconer wrote: > >This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen >in this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, >tax cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging >such simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >arose. More than half of the population didn't catch on in 4 years, and 4 more years is not going to clue them in, must less the dullest. Look at the Reagan/Bush years compared to the Clinton years. Only idiots could have put this guy in office the first time, never mind a second go. They won't be any smarter in 2008. -- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 58 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:30:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101731407 193.217.159.243 (Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:30:07 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:30:07 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.n-ix.net!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder1.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190592 In article <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com>, Floyd L. Davidson wrote: >CBFalconer wrote: >> >>This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen >>in this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >>difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, >>tax cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging >>such simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >>fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >>mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >>by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >>arose. > >More than half of the population didn't catch on in 4 years, and >4 more years is not going to clue them in, must less the >dullest. Look at the Reagan/Bush years compared to the Clinton >years. Only idiots could have put this guy in office the first >time, never mind a second go. They won't be any smarter in 2008. I think we can safely say that the democratic party as you have know it since FDR's days is now done for. This time they gave it all they got. They fielded a candidate with impeccable moral credentials; and went all-out for him. But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, he is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it with his voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the media isn't looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but only as a token gesture. When this is the candidate they go all-out on it tells me they are done for. The US electorate will not accept a democrat-style left winger. They are simply unelectable. Think "McGovern", and "Mondale" as references. They haven't had a candidate succeed on that recipe since Kennedy. Johnson, Carter and Clinton all ran their own shows based on power bases in their home states; and they ran the democratic party, not the other way around. Now, if you want to find someone electable, go look at the current governors. Anyyone come to your mind? No, thought so. It won't just be four years. Think twelwe. -- mrr ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:07:51 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 04 14:32:29 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 105 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.12 X-Trace: sv3-qEDwwquh53GkiWQ4yqUWzCqgd+nMfqnNDpKn/FBV625and9sotCekf41v3+2xqcHVWQ2EefzHSGY/OJ!iALHALX0x0rKh1K4RjwWbYDSG0JN7IWfXr/33ugrsgt35RzMcc5ZnKYcn/tuvsBs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190609 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com>, >Floyd L. Davidson wrote: >>CBFalconer wrote: >>> >>>This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen >>>in this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >>>difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, >>>tax cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging >>>such simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >>>fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >>>mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >>>by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >>>arose. >> >>More than half of the population didn't catch on in 4 years, and >>4 more years is not going to clue them in, must less the >>dullest. Look at the Reagan/Bush years compared to the Clinton >>years. Only idiots could have put this guy in office the first >>time, never mind a second go. They won't be any smarter in 2008. > >I think we can safely say that the democratic party as you have >know it since FDR's days is now done for. My current hypothesis is that this is because all of the Real Democrats have died off. Those real democrats were men who had been trained ala the backroom politicians; the good side effect of having those party bosses is that politicians worked themselves up through the ranks and had to work a lot of jobs that dealt with adminstration. This type of work isn't required anymore for Presidential candidates. I starting to identify the source of the problem with the introduction of primaries as the vehicle of choice. >This time they gave it all they got. They fielded a candidate >with impeccable moral credentials; and went all-out for him. No, they didn't go all out for him. There were definite power struggles going on that undermined anything Kerry did before July. Most of the undermining didn't stop until he "hired" the Clinton contingent. >But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, >he is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it >with his voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the >media isn't looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but >only as a token gesture. > >When this is the candidate they go all-out on it tells me they >are done for. One would hope that is the case. The other scenario is that the party turns into a Clintonesque of the Hillary variety. This would be worse because she favors militant Islamicists among other terrible things. > ..The US electorate will not accept a democrat-style >left winger. They are simply unelectable. Think "McGovern", and >"Mondale" as references. > >They haven't had a candidate succeed on that recipe since Kennedy. Now look at how Kennedy was picked. > >Johnson, Carter and Clinton all ran their own shows based on >power bases in their home states; and they ran the democratic >party, not the other way around. They also had extensive adminstrative experience and had political instincts. Kerry had zilch in the political instinct and almost no experience in adminstration. > >Now, if you want to find someone electable, go look at the current >governors. Anyyone come to your mind? > >No, thought so. You need to track what Hillary is doing behind the scenes, too. As soon as the old guard drops dead or retires, she will be the head of the new set. > >It won't just be four years. Think twelwe. I figure it will be four years and the next candidate will be even worse than Kerry. But that one will get elected because of the economy going sour. People vote for a change when their they have pocketbook problems. The next administration will be Democrat and a repeat of what happened during Carter's term. Do you recall 18% (or was it 14%) for the prime rate? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 115 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101758402 193.217.159.243 (Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:00:02 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed2.ip.tiscali.net!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190628 In article , wrote: >In article , > Morten Reistad wrote: >>In article <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com>, >>Floyd L. Davidson wrote: >>>CBFalconer wrote: >>>> >> >>I think we can safely say that the democratic party as you have >>know it since FDR's days is now done for. > >My current hypothesis is that this is because all of the >Real Democrats have died off. Those real democrats were men >who had been trained ala the backroom politicians; the good >side effect of having those party bosses is that politicians >worked themselves up through the ranks and had to work a lot >of jobs that dealt with adminstration. This type of work >isn't required anymore for Presidential candidates. I >starting to identify the source of the problem with the >introduction of primaries as the vehicle of choice. Also, people that have had real life experience, not just a life in the limbo that is opposition politics. > >>This time they gave it all they got. They fielded a candidate >>with impeccable moral credentials; and went all-out for him. > >No, they didn't go all out for him. There were definite power >struggles going on that undermined anything Kerry did before >July. Most of the undermining didn't stop until he "hired" >the Clinton contingent. From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for any candidate in many decades. >>But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, >>he is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it >>with his voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the >>media isn't looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but >>only as a token gesture. >> >>When this is the candidate they go all-out on it tells me they >>are done for. > >One would hope that is the case. The other scenario is that >the party turns into a Clintonesque of the Hillary variety. >This would be worse because she favors militant Islamicists >among other terrible things. Mrs Clinton is one ot those people many from the DNC would love to see in a ticket, but she is unelectable. One person that will SURELY bring out the Amish to vote again. You noticed? The Amish went voting this year. I gather the "unexplained" difference in Ohio and Pennsylvania are them. They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed by the other side. >> ..The US electorate will not accept a democrat-style >>left winger. They are simply unelectable. Think "McGovern", and >>"Mondale" as references. >> >>They haven't had a candidate succeed on that recipe since Kennedy. > >Now look at how Kennedy was picked. Kennedy only barely made it to the presidency too. >>Johnson, Carter and Clinton all ran their own shows based on >>power bases in their home states; and they ran the democratic >>party, not the other way around. > >They also had extensive adminstrative experience and had >political instincts. Kerry had zilch in the political >instinct and almost no experience in adminstration. > >>Now, if you want to find someone electable, go look at the current >>governors. Anyyone come to your mind? >> >>No, thought so. > >You need to track what Hillary is doing behind the scenes, too. >As soon as the old guard drops dead or retires, she will be >the head of the new set. Scenario 1 : Some well respected Republican like mr McCane runs in 2008, against Hillary. I wouldn't give her a chance. That sounds like another 8 years. >>It won't just be four years. Think twelwe. > >I figure it will be four years and the next candidate will be >even worse than Kerry. But that one will get elected >because of the economy going sour. People vote for a change >when their they have pocketbook problems. The next administration >will be Democrat and a repeat of what happened during >Carter's term. Do you recall 18% (or was it 14%) for the >prime rate? This is why the economy worries me. This was is far more expensive than what is good. And the US refuses to budge in the solo-game they have been running. And there are still North Korea, Iran, half a dozen unstable muslim states, and a score even worse off african nations that can go boom. Turkmenistan, Ivory Coast, Rwanda; and Somalia may blow up yet again. And China is getting peoblematic. Now they are up to funding Cuba. The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they try to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. -- mrr ###### Message-ID: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 68 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:22:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.132.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1101702123 12.76.132.122 (Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:22:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:22:03 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190586 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Morten Reistad wrote: > ... snip ... >> >> I truly admit India has a lot of democratic shortcomings, among >> them a very chaotic executive branch. The other parts of the open >> society are in place. The judiciary works, more or less, >> legislature and press are also functioning excellently, considering >> that this is a system under severe stress from poverty, population >> growth and a general inclination tochaos. (Indians share that trait >> with Italians). > > And they have an economy that is based on payoffs in order to > get anything done. That is a huge drain on production since a > percentage of the cost does nothing other than keep deliberate > maliciouness at bay. > >> There is corruption all right, mostly in commerce and as petty hand >> money to lower-level officials. India has a pretty good record of >>getting the large cases prosecuted though. > > But those large cases got started on a basis of the smaller payoffs. > It's a pyramid scheme that doesn't last (I'm still talking about > long-term production of usefulness) because the sale of one widget > supplies money to a set of people whose population is articficially > bloated. IOW, instead of requiring paying 5 people to make the > widget, the payoff infrastructure requires paying 50 people. > I'm reading about North Korea, a book written by some US > foreign policy wank. In trying to be "fair" about North Korea, > he lauded the fact that their agriculture was mechanized. Then > in the next sentence, he noted that huge percentage of the > male population was in the military and assigned to the farms. > That three males setting around watching the corn^Wrice grow > and doing nothing productive but using up the returns of that > production they're watching. > ... snip ... > > There's infrastructure but it's based on payoffs. This excludes > anybody from starting a new venture who doesn't know the > undocumented rules of business engagement. It's an effective > road block to long-term growth. > >> India is at a point where ANY external business is good business, >> because the proceeds will become seed money to lots of good >> projects. > > But their economic culture is based on activities that are > designed to minimize any possiblity of growth. Note that this > isn't just India. It looks to me like anything that starts to > regulate socialist ideas turn into quicksand. This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen in this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, tax cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging such simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems arose. -- "The most amazing achievement of the computer software industry is its continuing cancellation of the steady and staggering gains made by the computer hardware industry..." - Petroski ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 104 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:30:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101731403 193.217.159.243 (Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:30:03 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:30:03 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor.de!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder1.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190591 In article <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Morten Reistad wrote: >> >... snip ... >>> >>> I truly admit India has a lot of democratic shortcomings, among >>> them a very chaotic executive branch. The other parts of the open >>> society are in place. The judiciary works, more or less, [snip] >> And they have an economy that is based on payoffs in order to >> get anything done. That is a huge drain on production since a >> percentage of the cost does nothing other than keep deliberate >> maliciouness at bay. The payoffs are a nuisance; but they aren't so way out of control as they are in Egypt or most of Africa. >>> There is corruption all right, mostly in commerce and as petty hand >>> money to lower-level officials. India has a pretty good record of >>>getting the large cases prosecuted though. >> >> But those large cases got started on a basis of the smaller payoffs. >> It's a pyramid scheme that doesn't last (I'm still talking about >> long-term production of usefulness) because the sale of one widget >> supplies money to a set of people whose population is articficially >> bloated. IOW, instead of requiring paying 5 people to make the >> widget, the payoff infrastructure requires paying 50 people. >> I'm reading about North Korea, a book written by some US >> foreign policy wank. In trying to be "fair" about North Korea, >> he lauded the fact that their agriculture was mechanized. Then >> in the next sentence, he noted that huge percentage of the >> male population was in the military and assigned to the farms. >> That three males setting around watching the corn^Wrice grow >> and doing nothing productive but using up the returns of that >> production they're watching. You don't seem to have absorbed the fact that India actually is trying pretty hard to reform; with some pretty decent people at the top of the Finance and Judiciary; but they have a daunting task ahead of them. You have got to sell the ideas to the electorate as well; or you will be ousted in the next election; as VJP just was, >... snip ... >> >> There's infrastructure but it's based on payoffs. This excludes >> anybody from starting a new venture who doesn't know the >> undocumented rules of business engagement. It's an effective >> road block to long-term growth. >> >>> India is at a point where ANY external business is good business, >>> because the proceeds will become seed money to lots of good >>> projects. >> >> But their economic culture is based on activities that are >> designed to minimize any possiblity of growth. Note that this >> isn't just India. It looks to me like anything that starts to >> regulate socialist ideas turn into quicksand. That was the sixties. Then came the eighties, and socialism tanked big-time. The third world has understood this. But reform of poor countries takes time and money. > >This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen >in this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, >tax cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging >such simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >arose. The US does indeed seem to have severe problems, but not quite from those reasons. The most important single issue is going to be the creditworthyness of the US. Yes, indeed. The iraq war is fully financed by lending, and the treasury was already at a deficit. The result is a dollar that nosedives; and a dollar that becomes just one currency among many. That may be good for the US, but it will be a rude awakening. I guess you should take note that all the small countries are running to the Euro; not because the Euro is particulary attractive, but because they fear for the dollar. I have recently been avaluating a lot of different products in the electronics sector; and frankly; the US products are inferior and overpriced all over. German products are also as expensive, but they are rock solid; and there is a segment that wants to pay for that. For the rest, China produces the stuff. France and the UK is not to far behind, actually. A shame. But don't blame it on the President. He has mostly not been in the loop, or has largely done the right things. Not that I particularly favor the current one; the alternatives the other side showed was not an improvement. -- mrr ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:12:23 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 04 12:37:00 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 142 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.12 X-Trace: sv3-QsR6v3yePk+DEAaCDi2tJKN6nEZPJm1EXvha6QVhAEIdoTSFSrKWwX2u3h4G3YrJ5LXMaqegOLEia36!h2Za1J80oHnDzcvLVxpnC+zWZRLb+cHUUgFmmYwWJsIZD1aJFoMKgvB7ogAlBpoV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190596 In article <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>, Morten Reistad wrote: >In article <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com>, >CBFalconer wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> Morten Reistad wrote: >>> >>... snip ... >>>> >>>> I truly admit India has a lot of democratic shortcomings, among >>>> them a very chaotic executive branch. The other parts of the open >>>> society are in place. The judiciary works, more or less, >[snip] >>> And they have an economy that is based on payoffs in order to >>> get anything done. That is a huge drain on production since a >>> percentage of the cost does nothing other than keep deliberate >>> maliciouness at bay. > >The payoffs are a nuisance; but they aren't so way out of >control as they are in Egypt or most of Africa. Or...not yet as out of control. More later. > >>>> There is corruption all right, mostly in commerce and as petty hand >>>> money to lower-level officials. India has a pretty good record of >>>>getting the large cases prosecuted though. >>> >>> But those large cases got started on a basis of the smaller payoffs. >>> It's a pyramid scheme that doesn't last (I'm still talking about >>> long-term production of usefulness) because the sale of one widget >>> supplies money to a set of people whose population is articficially >>> bloated. IOW, instead of requiring paying 5 people to make the >>> widget, the payoff infrastructure requires paying 50 people. >>> I'm reading about North Korea, a book written by some US >>> foreign policy wank. In trying to be "fair" about North Korea, >>> he lauded the fact that their agriculture was mechanized. Then >>> in the next sentence, he noted that huge percentage of the >>> male population was in the military and assigned to the farms. >>> That three males setting around watching the corn^Wrice grow >>> and doing nothing productive but using up the returns of that >>> production they're watching. > >You don't seem to have absorbed the fact that India actually >is trying pretty hard to reform; with some pretty decent people >at the top of the Finance and Judiciary; but they have a daunting >task ahead of them. You have got to sell the ideas to the electorate >as well; or you will be ousted in the next election; as VJP just >was, I have no doubt that people are trying to correct this. I just don't see how a culture based on payoffs can be changed. My estimate (which is always way off) estimates at least four generations and that's assuming banks make small loans to very poor as seed money. IOW, I don't see how it can be changed topdown. > >>... snip ... >>> >>> There's infrastructure but it's based on payoffs. This excludes >>> anybody from starting a new venture who doesn't know the >>> undocumented rules of business engagement. It's an effective >>> road block to long-term growth. >>> >>>> India is at a point where ANY external business is good business, >>>> because the proceeds will become seed money to lots of good >>>> projects. >>> >>> But their economic culture is based on activities that are >>> designed to minimize any possiblity of growth. Note that this >>> isn't just India. It looks to me like anything that starts to >>> regulate socialist ideas turn into quicksand. > >That was the sixties. Then came the eighties, and socialism >tanked big-time. The third world has understood this. > >But reform of poor countries takes time and money. Time, yes. The money I don't know about. It has to be well-placed and not put into a politician's backyard just because it is his/her backyard. > >> >>This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen >>in this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >>difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, >>tax cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging >>such simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >>fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >>mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >>by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >>arose. > >The US does indeed seem to have severe problems, but not quite from >those reasons. > >The most important single issue is going to be the creditworthyness >of the US. Yes, indeed. The iraq war is fully financed by lending, >and the treasury was already at a deficit. The result is a dollar >that nosedives; and a dollar that becomes just one currency among many. It's the 60s again, isn't it? > >That may be good for the US, but it will be a rude awakening. That seems to be the only thing that works with politicians these days. >I guess you should take note that all the small countries are >running to the Euro; not because the Euro is particulary attractive, >but because they fear for the dollar. > >I have recently been avaluating a lot of different products in >the electronics sector; and frankly; the US products are inferior >and overpriced all over. German products are also as expensive, but >they are rock solid; and there is a segment that wants to pay for that. Exactly. I walk into a CompUSA to take a look at the gear. I can't believe the crap. Note that I seem to be able to identify stuff that's done well as opposed to bandaided by looking at it. For software I have to "see" it run but a directory of the distributions can also give me a hint. > >For the rest, China produces the stuff. France and the UK is not to >far behind, actually. > >A shame. But don't blame it on the President. He has mostly not >been in the loop, or has largely done the right things. Not that >I particularly favor the current one; the alternatives the other >side showed was not an improvement. The other side was the exact opposite. Note that the explanation for the loss is now "we didn't bash Bush at the convention". These people have absolutely no knowledge of the real world. This is abject stupidity. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:49:52 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 04 14:14:29 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 87 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.12 X-Trace: sv3-GiASLVuDzqclcXWXgrGqnWijl2TeK6WTWH3UccTCDbH0L7eq6VrIceYM1Co1kfd6OspUSAXDSWePfY2!73eIga1/ryqT/vfzD81li2enPa69zhuWhFEkxaDrHfMdHHMfZtTSZZtQEnwjfy4U X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190606 In article <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Morten Reistad wrote: >> >.... snip ... >>> >>> I truly admit India has a lot of democratic shortcomings, among >>> them a very chaotic executive branch. The other parts of the open >>> society are in place. The judiciary works, more or less, >>> legislature and press are also functioning excellently, considering >>> that this is a system under severe stress from poverty, population >>> growth and a general inclination tochaos. (Indians share that trait >>> with Italians). >> >> And they have an economy that is based on payoffs in order to >> get anything done. That is a huge drain on production since a >> percentage of the cost does nothing other than keep deliberate >> maliciouness at bay. >> >>> There is corruption all right, mostly in commerce and as petty hand >>> money to lower-level officials. India has a pretty good record of >>>getting the large cases prosecuted though. >> >> But those large cases got started on a basis of the smaller payoffs. >> It's a pyramid scheme that doesn't last (I'm still talking about >> long-term production of usefulness) because the sale of one widget >> supplies money to a set of people whose population is articficially >> bloated. IOW, instead of requiring paying 5 people to make the >> widget, the payoff infrastructure requires paying 50 people. >> I'm reading about North Korea, a book written by some US >> foreign policy wank. In trying to be "fair" about North Korea, >> he lauded the fact that their agriculture was mechanized. Then >> in the next sentence, he noted that huge percentage of the >> male population was in the military and assigned to the farms. >> That three males setting around watching the corn^Wrice grow >> and doing nothing productive but using up the returns of that >> production they're watching. >> >.... snip ... >> >> There's infrastructure but it's based on payoffs. This excludes >> anybody from starting a new venture who doesn't know the >> undocumented rules of business engagement. It's an effective >> road block to long-term growth. >> >>> India is at a point where ANY external business is good business, >>> because the proceeds will become seed money to lots of good >>> projects. >> >> But their economic culture is based on activities that are >> designed to minimize any possiblity of growth. Note that this >> isn't just India. It looks to me like anything that starts to >> regulate socialist ideas turn into quicksand. > >This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen >in this group. You didn't understand a single thing about what I was talking about. > ...What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >difficulties are self generated, I suggest you practice what you just preached because all the following is an attempt to place the blame on one man who had/has no power to cause/fix your problem list. > ..by the general motifs of greed, >tax cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging >such simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >arose. No, it will never be obvious because, like you, those people you mention are wearing the same rose-colored glasses you do. WHY THE FUCK are you turning this into yet another BASHBUSH thread? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:41:01 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> <30p1seF32h021U1@uni-berlin.de> <30rqheF33l90mU1@uni-berlin.de> <1014.828T484T6634281@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 29 Nov 04 14:05:38 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.12 X-Trace: sv3-RVHpiB8azroex9N56vSU5mLReNq9Mgv2ybXQH3QF0mLbQyx11FRqImsBourn8fvl4Z8pTocXTjbOMq1!pKQ0vVdMxEQOv2/alghiBZ1tv2z+dB6gNvUGrb7bxtMZnQ0lc/bFrWKbLohNyxzV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190603 In article <1014.828T484T6634281@kltpzyxm.invalid>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com >(jmfbahciv) writes: > >>But that's the problem with how people are running businesses these >>days. I don't understand this attitude. >>"Any action is OK as long as it's not [quite] illegal." WTF happened >>to "If I piss of my future and current customers, I'm not going >>to have a pot to piss in next year." > >"Customers"? That is soooo last week. Tough! ;-) It's about time we start teaching proper manners. > .. The proper term now is >"consumers", indicating their proper status as flocks of sheep >who can be herded and fleeced time and time again. This is effective for as long as a Ponzi scheme. > >Besides, the whole thing became irrelevant when the head honchos >figured out how to bail out (with a golden parachute), taking the >pot with them, while buying off enough politicians to ensure they >wouldn't be pursued. It's all a symptom of short-term thinking that has crowded out all other thinking. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Alan Balmer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:34:43 -0700 Organization: Balmer Consulting Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> <0lk5oc.d9q.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Reply-To: albalmer@spamcop.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de vt3iBRC6/YPBrLus695vEgB6lgeRe2aqGNC75+ekVP4Nv+rUwP Cancel-Lock: sha1:aYoKEnJP6J1k5eYmLRVfjf+4KXQ= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190618 On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:00:02 GMT, Morten Reistad wrote: >In article <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de>, >Stimpy wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>>> On a macro scale it's one small step toward reducing the cost >>>>> effectiveness of offshore outsourcing. >>>> >>>> Why do you want to do that? >>> >>> Somebody has to start saying no to wasting the time of people >>> who want to be productive. India still need to learn about >>> real productivity and make-work. All of these coldcock calls >>> are make-work. >> >>Doesn't matter... It's still a business... A business which could equally be >>carried out from any other country. The fact that this particular company >>are in India is irrelevant. They would be just as objectionable were they >>to be calling from New York or London > >I give them the choice to PAY for my time; and I am pretty nice about it >too, I give the preferential rate I only give my best clients. $100/hr, >units of 1/4 hr, payable by credit card or giro. After all, I will be >giving advice that is pretty similar to what I am doing for a living. > >But they don't appreciate this either. And it seems I have thrown >a wedge in their multiple-choice screens. I am not "unwilling to cooperate"; >quite on the contrary; I'll be more than happy to answer. On their dollar. I've done that a few times. Reactions range from confusion, to instant hanging up, to (on one occasion) delighted laughter. Turned out the kid was a fairly bright college student earning some extra money and was glad for any break in the monotony. > >No interviews have proceeded very far. They don't seem to value the >advice I can give them. > >-- mrr -- Al Balmer Balmer Consulting removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net ###### From: Anonymous Loser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:51:13 EST Message-ID: <1101768673.r3dvoSmq62lug3fE90ga+w@bubbanews> X-Abuse-Report: http://www.usenetabuse.com X-Orginal-Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:52:37 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!cyclops.nntpserver.com.POSTED!38b3ec3d!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190643 On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:30:07 GMT, Morten Reistad wrote: >This time they gave it all they got. They fielded a candidate >with impeccable moral credentials; and went all-out for him. >But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, >he is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it >with his voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the >media isn't looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but >only as a token gesture. Gave it all they got? Were we watching the same campaigns? What I saw was a very careful campaign designed to keep looking like they're going for the presidency strong, without looking like they're throwing the race, and that's exactly how it felt to me. Passing up obvious avenues for advancement by taking interviews with people who would give him a large amount of exposure, instead, appearing on a show who is dead last in the ratings, mere days before the election? I would have voted for the dems but avoiding the tough interviews kept making me feel like he was a coward. I doubt he is a coward. There are a lot of very savvy people running campaigns and there's no way they would have been holding back and avoiding certain venues like that even if they were incompetent. This was intentional. Maybe they are planning on keeping the door open for H Clinton... won't get my vote tho... she seems shady... at least her husband was open about what he was... he was a cad... everyone knew he was a cad, and he never pretended to be anything but, and people loved him for that. >Johnson, Carter and Clinton all ran their own shows based on >power bases in their home states; and they ran the democratic >party, not the other way around. Exactly why I don't think H Clinton would be a good candidate in '08... She's a New Yorker now... she abandoned her home state to take an office in a state she didn't even live in, for nothing more than political gain... she hasn't paid her dues... as if a couple years in congress is enough experience. -- Smoovious ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:45:55 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 04 12:10:21 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 198 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.165 X-Trace: sv3-cm2LdPro1DstF8tOIPiUZfBCRoX0/YutK+a2d9sRXJBFoi+F7V2/wReqbdCNRAWDhuVdqgOUYaXF3/M!WcvNie6kg+e4GedbEMKZA97oNk/SZ63Ms5GG+G5plER0C+Q30MNxp3MUWfD4JrO8zA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190681 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article , >> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>In article <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com>, >>>Floyd L. Davidson wrote: >>>>CBFalconer wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>I think we can safely say that the democratic party as you have >>>know it since FDR's days is now done for. >> >>My current hypothesis is that this is because all of the >>Real Democrats have died off. Those real democrats were men >>who had been trained ala the backroom politicians; the good >>side effect of having those party bosses is that politicians >>worked themselves up through the ranks and had to work a lot >>of jobs that dealt with adminstration. This type of work >>isn't required anymore for Presidential candidates. I >>starting to identify the source of the problem with the >>introduction of primaries as the vehicle of choice. > >Also, people that have had real life experience, not just a >life in the limbo that is opposition politics. Right. That's exactly what I mean. The new Republicans and Democrats have turned politics into a football game, where the one and only goal is to win the game and forget about the ongoing work that should be happening. >> >>>This time they gave it all they got. They fielded a candidate >>>with impeccable moral credentials; and went all-out for him. >> >>No, they didn't go all out for him. There were definite power >>struggles going on that undermined anything Kerry did before >>July. Most of the undermining didn't stop until he "hired" >>the Clinton contingent. > >From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for >any candidate in many decades. Now you know why I consider Clinton one the more dangerous pols in this country. These people aren't stupid but they are amoral and very short-sighted. I still have no counter evidence to my conjecture that one of games getting played is how many constitution clauses they can break without penality. > >>>But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, >>>he is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it >>>with his voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the >>>media isn't looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but >>>only as a token gesture. >>> >>>When this is the candidate they go all-out on it tells me they >>>are done for. >> >>One would hope that is the case. The other scenario is that >>the party turns into a Clintonesque of the Hillary variety. >>This would be worse because she favors militant Islamicists >>among other terrible things. > >Mrs Clinton is one ot those people many from the DNC would love to see >in a ticket, but she is unelectable. One person that will SURELY bring >out the Amish to vote again. > >You noticed? The Amish went voting this year. No, I didn't. > .. I gather the >"unexplained" difference in Ohio and Pennsylvania are them. > >They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed >by the other side. Everybody was; let me rephrase that...everybody who could think was deeply alarmed. Nobody in the Democrat party was taking the war seriously at all. Their fiscal stance was stupid and unrealistic. Kerry kept saying that the way to "fix" social security was to put more people to work. He was also trying to play the rich vs poor card by saying he would raise taxes of businesses; everybody now has their IRA, 401K, and other monies in stocks and mutual funds. This tune doesn't play anymore. > >>> ..The US electorate will not accept a democrat-style >>>left winger. They are simply unelectable. Think "McGovern", and >>>"Mondale" as references. >>> >>>They haven't had a candidate succeed on that recipe since Kennedy. >> >>Now look at how Kennedy was picked. > >Kennedy only barely made it to the presidency too. With a lot of fixing. > >>>Johnson, Carter and Clinton all ran their own shows based on >>>power bases in their home states; and they ran the democratic >>>party, not the other way around. >> >>They also had extensive adminstrative experience and had >>political instincts. Kerry had zilch in the political >>instinct and almost no experience in adminstration. >> >>>Now, if you want to find someone electable, go look at the current >>>governors. Anyyone come to your mind? >>> >>>No, thought so. >> >>You need to track what Hillary is doing behind the scenes, too. >>As soon as the old guard drops dead or retires, she will be >>the head of the new set. > >Scenario 1 : Some well respected Republican like mr McCane Sigh! He has run; he has lost. There is something about him that doesn't attract the primary voters. > .. runs in 2008, >against Hillary. I wouldn't give her a chance. That sounds like another >8 years. You keep forgetting about the power of the empty pocketbooks. > >>>It won't just be four years. Think twelwe. >> >>I figure it will be four years and the next candidate will be >>even worse than Kerry. But that one will get elected >>because of the economy going sour. People vote for a change >>when their they have pocketbook problems. The next administration >>will be Democrat and a repeat of what happened during >>Carter's term. Do you recall 18% (or was it 14%) for the >>prime rate? > >This is why the economy worries me. This was is far more >expensive than what is good. And the US refuses to budge in >the solo-game they have been running. You need to also understand that another reason Bush got the votes and support of Decocrats is because he was the only one that takes this war seriously. We know we're solo. I know it'll break the US fiscally. But this is the only way to preserve lifestyle of Western civilization and not go back to the tech level of the 12th century. When we're gone, the rest of the world might be able to continue. > >And there are still North Korea, Iran, half a dozen unstable muslim >states, and a score even worse off african nations that can go boom. >Turkmenistan, Ivory Coast, Rwanda; and Somalia may blow up yet again. I'm starting to learn about Africa and what went on there. That was because you wrote that summary of the state of world last spring :-). Thank you for doing that work. > >And China is getting peoblematic. Now they are up to funding Cuba. And Cuba is changing policies. > >The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they >try to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. I know. Why do you think I spent my and your time in this newsgroup from January-August talking about this stuff? Europe and Russia are setting back letting us pay and fight off this threat and think they will be able to pick off our carcas after it's all over. This is based on the assumption that whatever damage the US gets will not affect them. They're 100% wrong. The imams who want everything to be the way it used to be have no problems with killing off 80% of the world population, destroying all economic, educational, and technological infrastructures. It was just reported here that Bin Laden got an OK from an imam to use nukes. It won't be long before an imam somewhere will OK biological. These people will make Stalin look like a saint since he only killed off the intellectuals and not the peons; he worked them to death instead. Now, a quibble. You gave a list of countries that are in trouble. You left the unsaid implication that the US should be dealing with these instead of Iraq. Why? Why should the US be solving all the world's problems? First you(generic) complain about the US going solo w.r.t. Islam extremists, and then seem to demand that the US go solo and fix all the other problems. North Korea and South Korea is a problem best solved by them with Japan and China having strong roles in keeping the two talking. Isn't it about time that people fix their own business? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 130 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 19:30:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101843003 193.217.159.243 (Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:30:03 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:30:03 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190766 In article , wrote: >In article , > Morten Reistad wrote: >>In article , wrote: >>>In article , >>> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>>In article <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com>, >>>>Floyd L. Davidson wrote: >>>>>CBFalconer wrote: > >Everybody was; let me rephrase that...everybody who could think >was deeply alarmed. Nobody in the Democrat party was taking >the war seriously at all. Their fiscal stance was stupid >and unrealistic. Kerry kept saying that the way to "fix" >social security was to put more people to work. He was also >trying to play the rich vs poor card by saying he would raise >taxes of businesses; everybody now has their IRA, 401K, and >other monies in stocks and mutual funds. This tune doesn't >play anymore. Someone needs to pay for the war. For the time being it is the SE Asian moneymen that buys the US T-bills. They will bid down the dollar dramatically. >>>Now look at how Kennedy was picked. >> >>Kennedy only barely made it to the presidency too. > >With a lot of fixing. Like in Ukraine. They must have learnt from the Chicago Democrats. :-/ >You keep forgetting about the power of the empty pocketbooks. The backlash is more important than the president it will elect. >>>>It won't just be four years. Think twelwe. >>> >>>I figure it will be four years and the next candidate will be >>>even worse than Kerry. But that one will get elected >>>because of the economy going sour. People vote for a change >>>when their they have pocketbook problems. The next administration >>>will be Democrat and a repeat of what happened during >>>Carter's term. Do you recall 18% (or was it 14%) for the >>>prime rate? >> >>This is why the economy worries me. This was is far more >>expensive than what is good. And the US refuses to budge in >>the solo-game they have been running. > >You need to also understand that another reason Bush got >the votes and support of Decocrats is because he was the >only one that takes this war seriously. We know we're solo. >I know it'll break the US fiscally. But this is the only >way to preserve lifestyle of Western civilization and not >go back to the tech level of the 12th century. When >we're gone, the rest of the world might be able to continue. It needn't be as solo as it is. Around half of the US allies got shunted out from the loop when the relations with France and Germany went sour. >>And there are still North Korea, Iran, half a dozen unstable muslim >>states, and a score even worse off african nations that can go boom. >>Turkmenistan, Ivory Coast, Rwanda; and Somalia may blow up yet again. > >I'm starting to learn about Africa and what went on there. That was >because you wrote that summary of the state of world last spring :-). >Thank you for doing that work. >> >>And China is getting peoblematic. Now they are up to funding Cuba. > >And Cuba is changing policies. Only on the surface. Communist policy only advances at funerals. > >>The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they >>try to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. > >I know. Why do you think I spent my and your time in this newsgroup >from January-August talking about this stuff? Europe and Russia >are setting back letting us pay and fight off this threat and think >they will be able to pick off our carcas after it's all over. >This is based on the assumption that whatever damage the US gets >will not affect them. They're 100% wrong. The imams who want >everything to be the way it used to be have no problems with >killing off 80% of the world population, destroying all economic, >educational, and technological infrastructures. It was just >reported here that Bin Laden got an OK from an imam to use >nukes. It won't be long before an imam somewhere will OK >biological. These people will make Stalin look like a saint >since he only killed off the intellectuals and not the >peons; he worked them to death instead. It is about picking the fights. > >Now, a quibble. You gave a list of countries that are in >trouble. You left the unsaid implication that the US should >be dealing with these instead of Iraq. Why? Why should the >US be solving all the world's problems? First you(generic) >complain about the US going solo w.r.t. Islam extremists, and >then seem to demand that the US go solo and fix all the other >problems. No, not necessarily the US, but someone must play containment on the bad guys. France, UK, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Australia and Poland are all in contaiment roles in different host countries. The countries that are able to do such containment is US+Canada, EU+NO/CH, Japan/SE asia/NZ/AU. Russia, Israel, Taiwan and most of Latin America could do it, but generally have their arses full of local problems. This means that the list of peacekeepers is not really that long; and should not be unnecessarily limited. We can live with the US going solo in Iraq, if the others lift burdens in other places. >North Korea and South Korea is a problem best solved by them >with Japan and China having strong roles in keeping the two >talking. Isn't it about time that people fix their own >business? Yep. But we still have failed and renegade states to cater for; around a score of each. -- mrr ###### From: keith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:22:31 -0500 Organization: none Lines: 185 Message-ID: References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de F4juzGcv+mW2HqErarI4MwEFwCtDJVmy5A3oEwxNnngNAyt4UE User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190660 On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 +0000, Morten Reistad wrote: > In article , wrote: >>In article , >> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>In article <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com>, >>>Floyd L. Davidson wrote: >>>>CBFalconer wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>I think we can safely say that the democratic party as you have >>>know it since FDR's days is now done for. >> >>My current hypothesis is that this is because all of the >>Real Democrats have died off. Those real democrats were men >>who had been trained ala the backroom politicians; the good >>side effect of having those party bosses is that politicians >>worked themselves up through the ranks and had to work a lot >>of jobs that dealt with adminstration. This type of work >>isn't required anymore for Presidential candidates. I >>starting to identify the source of the problem with the >>introduction of primaries as the vehicle of choice. > > Also, people that have had real life experience, not just a > life in the limbo that is opposition politics. >> >>>This time they gave it all they got. They fielded a candidate >>>with impeccable moral credentials; and went all-out for him. >> >>No, they didn't go all out for him. There were definite power >>struggles going on that undermined anything Kerry did before >>July. Most of the undermining didn't stop until he "hired" >>the Clinton contingent. > > From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for > any candidate in many decades. The "press" sure did (and Dan Blather is gone for it), though I'm not so sure the Democratic machine did him any good. What shocked them is that they go *killed* in the House and Senate, which is unheard of in a mid-term election. Contrary to popular opinion, Kerry had a weak election committee (they were al well known to be losers), and then brought in the Clinton gang that really didn' thave his best interests in mind. Dick Morris had some really good articles about this. What a mess of a campaign Kerry ran (he didn't, because he's a legislator, not an executive). >>>But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, he >>>is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it with his >>>voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the media isn't >>>looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but only as a token >>>gesture. It was "point on". He couldn't get his message together at all. He has never been an executive, but a legislator. They are two different beasts. When was the last Senator to become president? (Hint: Kennedy) How many legislators in the past century? (two?) How many governors? (all but three?, including the two Senators) >>> >>>When this is the candidate they go all-out on it tells me they are done >>>for. >> >>One would hope that is the case. The other scenario is that the party >>turns into a Clintonesque of the Hillary variety. This would be worse >>because she favors militant Islamicists among other terrible things. > Mrs Clinton is one ot those people many from the DNC would love to see > in a ticket, but she is unelectable. One person that will SURELY bring > out the Amish to vote again. I surely *hope* you're right. But she has been shedding her uber-liberal skin trying to move right, and *six* years before the election. > You noticed? The Amish went voting this year. I gather the "unexplained" > difference in Ohio and Pennsylvania are them. There aren't enough to make that difference. The country is moving right, though the press and courts are moving left. ...pisses people off when their will is usurped by unelecteted, better-than-thou, arrogant "intellectuals". > They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed by the > other side. It wasn't just tha Amish. It was the whole center. >>> ..The US electorate will not accept a democrat-style >>>left winger. They are simply unelectable. Think "McGovern", and >>>"Mondale" as references. >>> >>>They haven't had a candidate succeed on that recipe since Kennedy. Kennedy was not a super-liberal. He ran as a cold-warrior too. He cut taxes (though it was implemented under Johnson) and was a right conservative by today's standards (faschist the left would say today). >>Now look at how Kennedy was picked. > > Kennedy only barely made it to the presidency too. A little illegal voting in Chicago helped. >>>Johnson, Carter and Clinton all ran their own shows based on power >>>bases in their home states; and they ran the democratic party, not the >>>other way around. >> >>They also had extensive adminstrative experience and had political >>instincts. Kerry had zilch in the political instinct and almost no >>experience in adminstration. >> >>>Now, if you want to find someone electable, go look at the current >>>governors. Anyyone come to your mind? >>> >>>No, thought so. Sure, several. >>You need to track what Hillary is doing behind the scenes, too. As soon >>as the old guard drops dead or retires, she will be the head of the new >>set. > > Scenario 1 : Some well respected Republican like mr McCane runs in 2008, > against Hillary. I wouldn't give her a chance. That sounds like another > 8 years. "McCain". Though I think Gulliani would give her a go too. The conservatives would hold their noses (once again) and pull the 'R' lever. >>>It won't just be four years. Think twelwe. >> >>I figure it will be four years and the next candidate will be even worse >>than Kerry. But that one will get elected because of the economy going >>sour. People vote for a change when their they have pocketbook >>problems. The next administration will be Democrat and a repeat of what >>happened during Carter's term. Do you recall 18% (or was it 14%) for >>the prime rate? > > This is why the economy worries me. This was is far more expensive than > what is good. And the US refuses to budge in the solo-game they have > been running. Europe refuses to budge from their solo game (of blocking the US). Just what would Europe offer? They aren't exactly standing on piles of gold, and their military isn't. > And there are still North Korea, China and Japan are better suited to work that one out. Threaten to allow Japan to go nuke if China can't get a handle on ol' Kim. It'll be done. > Iran, They'll implode soon enough. I see no war here. > half a dozen unstable muslim states, Syria is a target, sure. I think they'll fold though. I see no major armed conflicts above. > and a score even worse off african nations that can go boom. > Turkmenistan, Ivory Coast, Rwanda; and Somalia may blow up yet again. Interesting that the UN doesn't seem to care about these issues. ...something that it *might* be able to handle. > And China is getting peoblematic. Now they are up to funding Cuba. "Problematic"? How so? A soverign country going about its business as best it can. Ok, so it wants Tiawan back (but it isn't about to go to war for it - there would be nothing left to "win"). > The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they try > to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. Exactly what does "Old Europe" (in particular France and Germany) have to offer, except resistance. They have no military left (the DeGaulle has always been the joke of the "seas"). Their prime "help" in Iraq has been the "Oil for Food" corruption. Yeah, we need more of that! -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 06:14:51 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <1101768673.r3dvoSmq62lug3fE90ga+w@bubbanews> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 04 11:39:17 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.165 X-Trace: sv3-ATKTbTVwwHROUh69LolUWqHTrFaVXvij3PoauJ+ICv+dMKSLVvbzQda2Ivncm8M2zGthLGQvCzTDxm8!f4J8bgwq8zuoQfX39Od//hIyUpYfqmgUZQnbrWsEarHAxSD7BNkljaoda9aJCg6wjg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190680 In article <1101768673.r3dvoSmq62lug3fE90ga+w@bubbanews>, Anonymous Loser wrote: >On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:30:07 GMT, Morten Reistad >wrote: > >>This time they gave it all they got. They fielded a candidate >>with impeccable moral credentials; and went all-out for him. >>But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, >>he is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it >>with his voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the >>media isn't looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but >>only as a token gesture. > >Gave it all they got? Were we watching the same campaigns? > >What I saw was a very careful campaign designed to keep looking like >they're going for the presidency strong, without looking like they're >throwing the race, and that's exactly how it felt to me. Yup. Their strategy is take it all in 2008 because, by that time, the high oil prices will have gone through the economy. People vote their pocketbooks. From my POV in Mass., the Democrat convention did everything they could, short of asking out loud, for an Islamic attack. > >Passing up obvious avenues for advancement by taking interviews >with people who would give him a large amount of exposure, instead, >appearing on a show who is dead last in the ratings, mere days before >the election? Kerry is a Kennedy pol. The Clinton contingent is forcing them out of power. > >I would have voted for the dems but avoiding the tough interviews >kept making me feel like he was a coward. I doubt he is a coward. He was a fool and terribly stupid; like I said, he has zero political instinct. > >There are a lot of very savvy people running campaigns and >there's no way they would have been holding back and avoiding certain venues >like that even if they were incompetent. This was intentional. > >Maybe they are planning on keeping the door open for H Clinton... won't >get my vote tho... she seems shady... She is the crook in the family. > ..at least her husband was open >about what he was... he was a cad... everyone knew he was a cad, and he >never pretended to be anything but, and people loved him for that. Huh? I disagree. There is a very strange dynamic, which I have yet to figure out, where females are attracted to these Democrats who spout equal rights but treat females like dirt. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 214 Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:30:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101821403 193.217.159.243 (Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:30:03 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:30:03 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!news.tdcnorge.no!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190697 In article , keith wrote: >On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 +0000, Morten Reistad wrote: > >> In article , wrote: >>>In article , >>> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>>In article <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com>, >>>>Floyd L. Davidson wrote: >>>>>CBFalconer wrote: >>>>>> >>>> [snip about kerry] >> >> From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for >> any candidate in many decades. > >The "press" sure did (and Dan Blather is gone for it), though I'm not so >sure the Democratic machine did him any good. What shocked them is that >they go *killed* in the House and Senate, which is unheard of in a >mid-term election. > >Contrary to popular opinion, Kerry had a weak election committee (they >were al well known to be losers), and then brought in the Clinton gang >that really didn' thave his best interests in mind. Dick Morris had some >really good articles about this. What a mess of a campaign Kerry ran (he >didn't, because he's a legislator, not an executive). It remains a fact that the DNC made their most coherent effort in many decades. (Clinton and Carter both ran their own shows). They really went frantic over the "hate Bush" stuff. When this is the best they can do we should all just get used to republican presidents. >>>>But there is a catch. That he was called a waffler is not point on, he >>>>is solidly placed on the left wing, and consistently backs it with his >>>>voting whenever he deems it important enough, or the media isn't >>>>looking. Pressure will bring him to the center, but only as a token >>>>gesture. > >It was "point on". He couldn't get his message together at all. He has >never been an executive, but a legislator. They are two different beasts. >When was the last Senator to become president? (Hint: Kennedy) How many >legislators in the past century? (two?) How many governors? (all but >three?, including the two Senators) OK, a pinko coming across as a waffer. But still a pinko. The waffler image may actually be the most electable of the two. >>>>When this is the candidate they go all-out on it tells me they are done >>>>for. >>> >>>One would hope that is the case. The other scenario is that the party >>>turns into a Clintonesque of the Hillary variety. This would be worse >>>because she favors militant Islamicists among other terrible things. > >> Mrs Clinton is one ot those people many from the DNC would love to see >> in a ticket, but she is unelectable. One person that will SURELY bring >> out the Amish to vote again. > >I surely *hope* you're right. But she has been shedding her uber-liberal >skin trying to move right, and *six* years before the election. > >> You noticed? The Amish went voting this year. I gather the "unexplained" >> difference in Ohio and Pennsylvania are them. > >There aren't enough to make that difference. The country is moving right, >though the press and courts are moving left. ...pisses people off when >their will is usurped by unelecteted, better-than-thou, arrogant >"intellectuals". I just use them as an indicator of conservative, religous America. They don't usually get involved with the outside world, only when it is deemed important. If they come voting there is something big going on. >> They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed by the >> other side. > >It wasn't just tha Amish. It was the whole center. Bingo. I think they saw the pinko below the waffling. It is also interesting to see that the "red" america is the rural, "wilderness" while the blue is "urban". >>>> ..The US electorate will not accept a democrat-style >>>>left winger. They are simply unelectable. Think "McGovern", and >>>>"Mondale" as references. >>>> >>>>They haven't had a candidate succeed on that recipe since Kennedy. > >Kennedy was not a super-liberal. He ran as a cold-warrior too. He cut >taxes (though it was implemented under Johnson) and was a right >conservative by today's standards (faschist the left would say today). Yep. Imagine him making the Democrat ticket today. Not!. >>>Now look at how Kennedy was picked. >> >> Kennedy only barely made it to the presidency too. > >A little illegal voting in Chicago helped. Back then there really was a Democrat party machine to back the candidates. >>>>Johnson, Carter and Clinton all ran their own shows based on power >>>>bases in their home states; and they ran the democratic party, not the >>>>other way around. >>> >>>They also had extensive adminstrative experience and had political >>>instincts. Kerry had zilch in the political instinct and almost no >>>experience in adminstration. >>> >>>>Now, if you want to find someone electable, go look at the current >>>>governors. Anyyone come to your mind? >>>> >>>>No, thought so. > >Sure, several. > >>>You need to track what Hillary is doing behind the scenes, too. As soon >>>as the old guard drops dead or retires, she will be the head of the new >>>set. >> >> Scenario 1 : Some well respected Republican like mr McCane runs in 2008, >> against Hillary. I wouldn't give her a chance. That sounds like another >> 8 years. > >"McCain". Though I think Gulliani would give her a go too. The >conservatives would hold their noses (once again) and pull the 'R' lever. Sorry. McCain just used as an example. Gulliani is in the same category; and probably better presidential material. The republicans have a long line of well respected people. >>>>It won't just be four years. Think twelwe. >>> >>>I figure it will be four years and the next candidate will be even worse >>>than Kerry. But that one will get elected because of the economy going >>>sour. People vote for a change when their they have pocketbook >>>problems. The next administration will be Democrat and a repeat of what >>>happened during Carter's term. Do you recall 18% (or was it 14%) for >>>the prime rate? >> >> This is why the economy worries me. This was is far more expensive than >> what is good. And the US refuses to budge in the solo-game they have >> been running. > >Europe refuses to budge from their solo game (of blocking the US). Just >what would Europe offer? They aren't exactly standing on piles of gold, >and their military isn't. Europe isn't really doing much at all, except the UK and some minor initiatives in smaller countries. Not really true for the outlying areas. France is doing an effort to keep the lid on a dozen african countries, and there are variuos smaller operations in the "Lid-keeping" category from lots of european powers. Norway is trying to keep the lid on Sri Lanka; it is amazing what 20.000 refugees can do to politics vs the "old country". >> And there are still North Korea, > >China and Japan are better suited to work that one out. Threaten to allow >Japan to go nuke if China can't get a handle on ol' Kim. It'll be done. > >> Iran, > >They'll implode soon enough. I see no war here. > >> half a dozen unstable muslim states, > >Syria is a target, sure. I think they'll fold though. > >I see no major armed conflicts above. > >> and a score even worse off african nations that can go boom. >> Turkmenistan, Ivory Coast, Rwanda; and Somalia may blow up yet again. > >Interesting that the UN doesn't seem to care about these issues. >...something that it *might* be able to handle. The agenda is pretty long, and it needs attention. There are almost 30 countries which can turn sour and go terrorist. Currently we are not up to tackling more than 4-5 of them. >> And China is getting peoblematic. Now they are up to funding Cuba. > >"Problematic"? How so? A soverign country going about its business as >best it can. Ok, so it wants Tiawan back (but it isn't about to go to war >for it - there would be nothing left to "win"). China remains a communist dictatorship, and has refused to relinquish power in any fashion at all. This can become another cold war in a decade or so. I do NOT like theie renewed interest in Cuba. >> The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they try >> to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. > >Exactly what does "Old Europe" (in particular France and Germany) have to >offer, except resistance. They have no military left (the DeGaulle has >always been the joke of the "seas"). Their prime "help" in Iraq has been >the "Oil for Food" corruption. Yeah, we need more of that! Money. Lots of it. That requires some diplomacy, and to recruit the eurocrats for this cause. They will insist on a UN role in things; because of a legalistic world view. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:35:50 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 24 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!news-out.superfeed.net!corp-news!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190754 On 2004-11-29, Morten Reistad wrote: > The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they > try to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. The reason the US goes solo is that everyone else sees capituation as the first step in any conflict. If the UN actually showed it had teeth, the USA would change its methods. But since the UN's solution is to accept defeat, the USA feels compelled to go solo. It's so easy for everyone to blame the USA when they aren't doing anything at all. -- shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["There are nowadays professors of philosophy, but not philosophers." ] ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:57:14 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 60 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out2.nntp.be!local!corp-news!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190755 On 2004-11-29, Morten Reistad wrote: > That was the sixties. Then came the eighties, and socialism tanked > big-time. The third world has understood this. Do they really understand it, or was it just never an option? > The most important single issue is going to be the creditworthyness of > the US. Yes, indeed. The iraq war is fully financed by lending, and > the treasury was already at a deficit. The result is a dollar that > nosedives; and a dollar that becomes just one currency among many. The war is not what causes the dollar to nosedive. It's not even noise in the signal. The dive has been a long time coming. > That may be good for the US, but it will be a rude awakening. I guess > you should take note that all the small countries are running to the > Euro; not because the Euro is particulary attractive, but because they > fear for the dollar. ...or it could be that the Euro didn't exist before. It didn't make sense to go to European money before, because it wasn't universally accepted. The euro still isn't, but it's better than it was before. > I have recently been avaluating a lot of different products in > the electronics sector; and frankly; the US products are inferior > and overpriced all over. Are you sure you are talking about US products, or do you mean US branded products that are made overseas? I find a lot of US made electronics are among the best you can get. But the vast majority of what is sold as US products actually isn't made here. > A shame. But don't blame it on the President. He has mostly not > been in the loop, or has largely done the right things. Not that > I particularly favor the current one; the alternatives the other > side showed was not an improvement. The President gets blamed for a lot of things, most of which aren't even under his control. Never ceases to amaze me what people will blame him for, and that goes for Clinton and Carter too. I didn't like either of them, but they didn't do a lot of what they were blamed for. -- shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["There are nowadays professors of philosophy, but not philosophers." ] ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <30h6v6F2u8t25U1@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:14:26 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 45 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!38.119.100.111.MISMATCH!news-out2.spamkiller.net!corp-news!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190750 On 2004-11-23, Andrew wrote: > You seem to assume a priori that "offshore outsourcing" is a Bad Thing, You seem to assume is a good thing, which is equally wrong. > and that everyone here would agree with you. I certainly don't, any more > than I would agree that replacing human ditch diggers with mechanical > backhhoes is a bad thing. Free trade, even in services, is not a > zero-sum game. If another company in another conutry can perform a > service more efficiently, *IF* it really is done more efficiently. What I've seen so far was a negative, not a positive. > then that is where the work should be done. Says who? There is more to life than efficiency. I rather see people employeed that maximize corporate efficiency. In any case, they aren't increasing efficiency. In fact, many times the costs are actually higher, but they can report it in different ways to make it appear to be less costly. The suits love to play with numbers and many are fully capable of rationalizing 2 > 4. > And in the long term it benefits everyone. Does it? And even if it does, is it worth the high cost of the "short term" problems it causes? -- shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["There are nowadays professors of philosophy, but not philosophers." ] ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <58ydnc8fTPbGEzncRVn-uQ@rcn.net> <30mtcrF31njueU1@uni-berlin.de> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:24:29 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 65 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news-out.superfeed.net!corp-news!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190753 On 2004-11-27, Morten Reistad wrote: > That is hitting India pretty hard, considering they educate more > Real Engineers than the US; but only a handful of lawyers. A handful of lawyers? Every Indian I have met talks endless about their vast army of lawyers and incomprehensible and convoluted English law system. Also, turning out engineers by the dozen doesn't mean a thing. It's what you do with them that counts. Some counties have very few engineers, and yet manage to do great things. Some have a great many, and little to show for it. America's problem isn't the number of engineers, but what is done with them. > I have a very bad feeling about how the US is coping right now. > Saddeled with an expensive war, That war is a tiny fraction of our economy. It's not at all going to break us. It's not even noise in the signal compared to the real drags on our economy. > a lingering recession, a bad > raw materials squeeze and to top it off it seems that the US > dollar is losing it's status of seniority currency right as we > speak. And a lot of it is down to how the businesses behave. Business behavior is bad worldwide, but it's obviously going to have a far bigger impact in the US than in other nations. Some times aren't specifically about US actions as much as it is just *where* most things happen. In the future, if SEA becomes the focal point of business, then the problems will shift there as well. In fact, we've already seen a lot of that happen. Also, the rest of the world needs to learn to sell outside of the US market, because if they depend on the US and the US goes down, they will fall too. That's something a lot of people don't talk about: US woes are not all US created, and many foreign economies are nearly totally dependent on the US economy. The global economy is currently highly dependent on selling in the USA, and I think that needs to change drastically. -- shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["There are nowadays professors of philosophy, but not philosophers." ] ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ###### From: Anonymous Loser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:56:00 EST Message-ID: <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> X-Abuse-Report: http://www.usenetabuse.com X-Orginal-Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:45:18 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!cyclops.nntpserver.com.POSTED!38b3ec3d!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190772 On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:57:14 -0500, Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >On 2004-11-29, Morten Reistad wrote: > [...snip...] > >> That may be good for the US, but it will be a rude awakening. I guess >> you should take note that all the small countries are running to the >> Euro; not because the Euro is particulary attractive, but because they >> fear for the dollar. > >...or it could be that the Euro didn't exist before. It didn't make >sense to go to European money before, because it wasn't universally >accepted. > >The euro still isn't, but it's better than it was before. Maybe its cuz the euro comes in lots of pretty colors, while the US dollar's green and black just looks old and dated. Oh sure, they're adding a splash of very weak color to it as an afterthought, but it still looks bland. :) -- Smoovious ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:00:30 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 52 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed2.ip.tiscali.net!news-out2.nntp.be!local!corp-news!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190771 On 2004-11-29, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>That may be good for the US, but it will be a rude awakening. > > That seems to be the only thing that works with politicians these > days. It seems most people need it too. Gotta have a disaster before they can recognize one coming. >>I have recently been avaluating a lot of different products in >>the electronics sector; and frankly; the US products are inferior >>and overpriced all over. German products are also as expensive, but >>they are rock solid; and there is a segment that wants to pay for that. > > Exactly. I walk into a CompUSA to take a look at the gear. I > can't believe the crap. Note that I seem to be able to identify > stuff that's done well as opposed to bandaided by looking at it. > For software I have to "see" it run but a directory of the > distributions can also give me a hint. Very little of the stuff in CompUSA is made in the USA, so I don't see how you can view this as a valid criticism of US made products. >>A shame. But don't blame it on the President. He has mostly not >>been in the loop, or has largely done the right things. Not that >>I particularly favor the current one; the alternatives the other >>side showed was not an improvement. > > The other side was the exact opposite. Note that the explanation > for the loss is now "we didn't bash Bush at the convention". These > people have absolutely no knowledge of the real world. This > is abject stupidity. This is basically how I felt during Kerry's whole compaign. It was like watching a campaign for a leader in some other country, maybe another planet. I never felt like Kerry had any idea what he was doing, and it didn't help that he was self inconsistent so much. -- shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["There are nowadays professors of philosophy, but not philosophers." ] ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ###### From: prep@prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:08:34 +0800 Organization: none Lines: 32 Message-ID: <87hdn7mcpp.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grimiore.conceptual.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1101895213 22791 203.190.192.5 (1 Dec 2004 10:00:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:00:13 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:UNyvjEU4qH4y6HcabzkGWDQB/IM= Cache-Post-Path: grimiore.conceptual.net.au!unknown@202-137-96-132.auto.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.hispeed.ch!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!198.32.212.248.MISMATCH!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190811 floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) writes: > CBFalconer wrote: >>This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen in >>this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >>difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, tax >>cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging such >>simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >>fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >>mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >>by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >>arose. > More than half of the population didn't catch on in 4 years, and 4 > more years is not going to clue them in, must less the dullest. > Look at the Reagan/Bush years compared to the Clinton years. > Only idiots could have put this guy in office the first time, never > mind a second go. They won't be any smarter in 2008. And the US political system has brought about the miracle that it is imposible to tell which idiot you are refering to. And that would not change if Kerry had `won'. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041128 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 Message-ID: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s54 1101869946 24.1.185.48 (Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:59:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:59:06 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:59:11 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s54.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190797 Morten Reistad wrote: > In article , > keith wrote: > >>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 +0000, Morten Reistad wrote: >> >>>In article , wrote: > >>>From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for >>>any candidate in many decades. >> >>The "press" sure did (and Dan Blather is gone for it), though I'm not so >>sure the Democratic machine did him any good. What shocked them is that >>they go *killed* in the House and Senate, which is unheard of in a >>mid-term election. >> >>Contrary to popular opinion, Kerry had a weak election committee (they >>were al well known to be losers), and then brought in the Clinton gang >>that really didn' thave his best interests in mind. Dick Morris had some >>really good articles about this. What a mess of a campaign Kerry ran (he >>didn't, because he's a legislator, not an executive). > It remains a fact that the DNC made their most coherent effort in > many > decades. (Clinton and Carter both ran their own shows). They really > went frantic over the "hate Bush" stuff. When this is the best they can do > we should all just get used to republican presidents. Ifthe Democrat Party ends up deciding that their main problem in the last election is that they didn't holler loud enough, weren't nasty enough, and need to "run to the left" in the future (as more than a few are wanting to do), then I think the Democrat Party will go the way of the Whig's in the 1850's. Personally, I think this would probably be a Good Thing, and depending on what supplants it, I might be very happy voting for the new guys. I'm not at all happy with many of the Republicans, and some scare hell out of me, but many more of the Democrats are even worse (just in a different way), IMHO. I was hoping the Religious Right would capture the Republican Party in the early 90's because I thought that would fracture them and lead to that group being marginalised by a new party (not the dain-bramaged Libertarian Party, but something more small-government and small-l libertarian than anything we've got now). The Republicans didn't, widened their base and have prospered instead. The Democrats might do the same, but their "leadership" seem increasingly divorced from reality, and I'm not sure they're capable of resisting the hard-core Left anymore. > OK, a pinko coming across as a waffer. But still a pinko. The waffler image > may actually be the most electable of the two. When I read that "values" played a role in the election, I didn't think (based on conversations with friends, relatives and co-workers) that it was gay-marriage or abortion nearly so much as the perception that Bush _had_ values and believed in them, and that Kerry had none whatsoever except a drive to do anything, say anything, promise anything, just so long as it got him elected. They didn't necessarily agree with Bush's values, and some vehemently disagreed with _some_ of them, but Kerry aroused a deep unease and uncertainty about whether or not he stood for anything at all except getting him power. > I just use them as an indicator of conservative, religous > America. They > don't usually get involved with the outside world, only when it is deemed > important. If they come voting there is something big going on. > >>>They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed by the >>>other side. Yup. That describes a lot of Bush voters, including myself. --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:47:29 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 04 12:11:43 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 108 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.131 X-Trace: sv3-6Ifi77sEfZ4ZF4Fgai91FGviWnLiGjKV1kLxlYdKDIC58oxPG++Z2fUgux11h2/5HGfE2CrwhGP7HFv!hjcY3vza5wVH4eGU3BE3ZNYeUb6d93/LlqYOvunOVtSIw+pH0/KhxUwf0RTmH+zQsQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190831 In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, Larry Elmore wrote: >Morten Reistad wrote: >> In article , >> keith wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 +0000, Morten Reistad wrote: >>> >>>>In article , wrote: >> >>>>From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for >>>>any candidate in many decades. >>> >>>The "press" sure did (and Dan Blather is gone for it), though I'm not so >>>sure the Democratic machine did him any good. What shocked them is that >>>they go *killed* in the House and Senate, which is unheard of in a >>>mid-term election. >>> >>>Contrary to popular opinion, Kerry had a weak election committee (they >>>were al well known to be losers), and then brought in the Clinton gang >>>that really didn' thave his best interests in mind. Dick Morris had some >>>really good articles about this. What a mess of a campaign Kerry ran (he >>>didn't, because he's a legislator, not an executive). >> >> It remains a fact that the DNC made their most coherent effort in many >> decades. (Clinton and Carter both ran their own shows). They really >> went frantic over the "hate Bush" stuff. When this is the best they can do >> we should all just get used to republican presidents. > >Ifthe Democrat Party ends up deciding that their main problem in the >last election is that they didn't holler loud enough, weren't nasty >enough, and need to "run to the left" in the future (as more than a few >are wanting to do), That was the conclusion; it was just in the news and Barney Frank voiced it. > ...then I think the Democrat Party will go the way of >the Whig's in the 1850's. Personally, I think this would probably be a >Good Thing, and depending on what supplants it, That's why I'm worried; the replacement could get worse. > .. I might be very happy >voting for the new guys. I'm not at all happy with many of the >Republicans, and some scare hell out of me, Then you should be a single female; more than hell would come out of you. > .. but many more of the >Democrats are even worse (just in a different way), IMHO. I was hoping >the Religious Right would capture the Republican Party in the early 90's >because I thought that would fracture them and lead to that group being >marginalised by a new party (not the dain-bramaged Libertarian Party, >but something more small-government and small-l libertarian than >anything we've got now). The Republicans didn't, widened their base and >have prospered instead. The Democrats might do the same, but their >"leadership" seem increasingly divorced from reality, and I'm not sure >they're capable of resisting the hard-core Left anymore. They aren't. I read Barney Frank's book about how the Dems can win the White House, published before Clinton. He said that they couldn't win if they kept trying to appease the hard-left. > >> OK, a pinko coming across as a waffer. But still a pinko. The waffler image >> may actually be the most electable of the two. > >When I read that "values" played a role in the election, Which was grossly misinterpreted. > .. I didn't think >(based on conversations with friends, relatives and co-workers) that it >was gay-marriage or abortion nearly so much as the perception that Bush >_had_ values and believed in them, and that Kerry had none whatsoever >except a drive to do anything, say anything, promise anything, just so >long as it got him elected. They didn't necessarily agree with Bush's >values, and some vehemently disagreed with _some_ of them, but Kerry >aroused a deep unease and uncertainty about whether or not he stood for >anything at all except getting him power. My mother's complaint about him was that he kept saying he would fix Problem x but never said anything about how he would fix it. > >> >> I just use them as an indicator of conservative, religous America. They >> don't usually get involved with the outside world, only when it is deemed >> important. If they come voting there is something big going on. >> >>>>They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed by the >>>>other side. > >Yup. That describes a lot of Bush voters, including myself. Me, too. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: blmblm@myrealbox.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 1 Dec 2004 14:27:37 GMT Organization: None Lines: 97 Message-ID: <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> X-Trace: individual.net YYtsUJALj3fvXleN1X6H/ACIQdsfJrIi8U8/gCJbJpHZFw9+QF X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190848 In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, Larry Elmore wrote: >Morten Reistad wrote: >> In article , >> keith wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 +0000, Morten Reistad wrote: >>> >>>>In article , wrote: >> >>>>From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for >>>>any candidate in many decades. >>> >>>The "press" sure did (and Dan Blather is gone for it), though I'm not so >>>sure the Democratic machine did him any good. What shocked them is that >>>they go *killed* in the House and Senate, which is unheard of in a >>>mid-term election. >>> >>>Contrary to popular opinion, Kerry had a weak election committee (they >>>were al well known to be losers), and then brought in the Clinton gang >>>that really didn' thave his best interests in mind. Dick Morris had some >>>really good articles about this. What a mess of a campaign Kerry ran (he >>>didn't, because he's a legislator, not an executive). >> >> It remains a fact that the DNC made their most coherent effort in many >> decades. (Clinton and Carter both ran their own shows). They really >> went frantic over the "hate Bush" stuff. When this is the best they can do >> we should all just get used to republican presidents. > >Ifthe Democrat Party ends up deciding that their main problem in the >last election is that they didn't holler loud enough, weren't nasty >enough, and need to "run to the left" in the future (as more than a few >are wanting to do), then I think the Democrat Party will go the way of >the Whig's in the 1850's. Personally, I think this would probably be a >Good Thing, and depending on what supplants it, I might be very happy >voting for the new guys. I'm not at all happy with many of the >Republicans, and some scare hell out of me, but many more of the >Democrats are even worse (just in a different way), IMHO. I was hoping >the Religious Right would capture the Republican Party in the early 90's >because I thought that would fracture them and lead to that group being >marginalised by a new party (not the dain-bramaged Libertarian Party, >but something more small-government and small-l libertarian than >anything we've got now). The Republicans didn't, widened their base and >have prospered instead. The Democrats might do the same, but their >"leadership" seem increasingly divorced from reality, and I'm not sure >they're capable of resisting the hard-core Left anymore. > >> OK, a pinko coming across as a waffer. But still a pinko. The waffler image >> may actually be the most electable of the two. > >When I read that "values" played a role in the election, I didn't think >(based on conversations with friends, relatives and co-workers) that it >was gay-marriage or abortion nearly so much as the perception that Bush >_had_ values and believed in them, and that Kerry had none whatsoever >except a drive to do anything, say anything, promise anything, just so >long as it got him elected. They didn't necessarily agree with Bush's >values, and some vehemently disagreed with _some_ of them, but Kerry >aroused a deep unease and uncertainty about whether or not he stood for >anything at all except getting him power. Well .... This doesn't make sense to me, so maybe you can explain. Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do at least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions you're not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more attractive choice? Is it just that there's some appeal to a person who appears to stand for something, even if it's something of which you strongly disapprove? Is it that the person who appears not to stand for anything in particular seems like a loose cannon, who might do something even worse? though it seems like someone who's as concerned with the public's opinion as Kerry is perceived to be -- well, wouldn't this concern with the public's opinion keep him from doing anything too wacky? I'm really curious about this. In my mind it's connected with the polls asking "which candidate do you think is a stronger leader?" as if being a strong leader were inherently and always good. All other things being equal, sure, leadership skills are important to the job being sought, but shouldn't it also matter which direction the person wants to lead? Or is it more that people were willing to put up with Bush's stands on issues they thought were of lesser importance because they thought he was right about things they thought mattered more? It seems like that's BAH's position .... >> I just use them as an indicator of conservative, religous America. They >> don't usually get involved with the outside world, only when it is deemed >> important. If they come voting there is something big going on. >> >>>>They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed by the >>>>other side. > >Yup. That describes a lot of Bush voters, including myself. -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 61 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101898802 193.217.159.243 (Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 12:00:02 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!uio.no!193.216.69.35.MISMATCH!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190815 In article <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews>, Anonymous Loser wrote: >On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:57:14 -0500, Charles Shannon Hendrix > wrote: > >>On 2004-11-29, Morten Reistad wrote: >> >[...snip...] >> >>> That may be good for the US, but it will be a rude awakening. I guess >>> you should take note that all the small countries are running to the >>> Euro; not because the Euro is particulary attractive, but because they >>> fear for the dollar. >> >>...or it could be that the Euro didn't exist before. It didn't make >>sense to go to European money before, because it wasn't universally >>accepted. >> >>The euro still isn't, but it's better than it was before. > >Maybe its cuz the euro comes in lots of pretty colors, while the US dollar's >green and black just looks old and dated. Oh sure, they're adding a splash of >very weak color to it as an afterthought, but it still looks bland. The Euro isnt' a stellar construction, but it is good enough for the job. Between Bretton Woods (1944, when everyone decided to do something about using the bankrupt UK Pound) and the introduction of the Euro in the late 1990's there was simply no alternative to a global currency; it was the US dollar. The closest alternatives were the German Mark and the Japanese Yen, but the German economy simply wasn't big enough; and the Japanese was also smaller, and not widely connected. Besides, they both lost the war. With the Euro there is a viable alternative. In ideal times the dollar is better, has a better track record, is more dispersed, has external non-us markets like the eurodollar market. The dollar is still backed by the largest market etc. but it is not a question of orders of magnitude anymore. So when the dollar has problems there is a place to defect. When such opportunities exit and the occation arises financial markets are known to show their loyalty by defecting in droves. China is making a political point of using the Euro, but the action is simply explained by the necessities of commerce. If they now peg the Yuan to the Euro they will do a slow revaluation without having to go through the political motions of doint that. (The Yuan is way undervalued, but it kept that way by China as a method to expand the industrialization of the country). How far can the dollar loyalty of overseas investors be stretched? During Reagan's presidency the answer was 'incredibly far'. I think that answer has changed now. -- mrr ###### From: prep@prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 02:08:34 +0800 Organization: none Lines: 32 Message-ID: <87hdn7mcpp.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grimiore.conceptual.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1101895213 22791 203.190.192.5 (1 Dec 2004 10:00:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:00:13 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:UNyvjEU4qH4y6HcabzkGWDQB/IM= Cache-Post-Path: grimiore.conceptual.net.au!unknown@202-137-96-132.auto.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.hispeed.ch!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!198.32.212.248.MISMATCH!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190811 floyd@barrow.com (Floyd L. Davidson) writes: > CBFalconer wrote: >>This almost the worst example of bigotry and bias I have yet seen in >>this group. What is wrong with facing up to the fact that our >>difficulties are self generated, by the general motifs of greed, tax >>cuts for the rich, encouraging out-sourcing and discouraging such >>simple freedoms as freedom of choice for women, and religious >>fervor. We now have to face another four years of extreme >>mismanagement and self destruction. The only silver lining is that >>by then it should be obvious to the dullest where the problems >>arose. > More than half of the population didn't catch on in 4 years, and 4 > more years is not going to clue them in, must less the dullest. > Look at the Reagan/Bush years compared to the Clinton years. > Only idiots could have put this guy in office the first time, never > mind a second go. They won't be any smarter in 2008. And the US political system has brought about the miracle that it is imposible to tell which idiot you are refering to. And that would not change if Kerry had `won'. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 06:51:36 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 04 12:15:50 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.131 X-Trace: sv3-WQC2C+Y1S8EkZ7L9+PqaocRnBT9BbbmPpoausUB2fp8INx+1QVWGd3RuY5aQf2hIZfCrwZ9QSCOL5OM!7XJo3faPDeas/iVs2ng7fZ5V8ZY211o3HIsBPkqCbc40tEmsO7cz+vVSKe9l6byRmg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190833 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >On 2004-11-29, Morten Reistad wrote: > >> The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they >> try to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. > >The reason the US goes solo is that everyone else sees capituation as >the first step in any conflict. > >If the UN actually showed it had teeth, the USA would change its methods. > >But since the UN's solution is to accept defeat, the USA feels compelled >to go solo. I've been waiting to see what the UN would do with Iran thumbing their nuclear nose. The deadline was last week, IIRC. I don't enough about politics and foreign policies to be able to tell if the UN blinked yet again. > >It's so easy for everyone to blame the USA when they aren't doing >anything at all. It's safer to be an armchair general plus it wins elections to stay on the sidelines. If you read our arguing, you would see that our European friends are assuming that these terrorists are cut from the same cloth as their local home-grown terrorists. This is a fatal assumption. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:53:16 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> From: Jon Boone Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:53:17 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:8EANGbTLIKKMkYoKFC04PEAGCTs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.84.208.206 X-Trace: sv3-WYLQClzazhyMUNeIcTiJ/6jDeYBVk8HdG/FHd2nAplhOBJfgYrk/REgbE6+4OdDmL6mE+8aPdfbVity!MJq/W0YAHTH9UfqBXO9SV7qw/TE3CQTO8vLBVkOf+5m/h63psBk3WrR6wppFP1+T6+A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190901 Morten Reistad writes: > How far can the dollar loyalty of overseas investors be stretched? During > Reagan's presidency the answer was 'incredibly far'. I think that answer > has changed now. Have you considered the consequences to the EU if the dollar falls much further? --jon ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 01:08:17 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> From: Jon Boone Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:08:16 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:YLRgHiJWKlDrZupgnqZQ8/OB2k8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 52 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.84.208.206 X-Trace: sv3-rudupmceM0ULxsGTjs7+nQv14Gla9q9LVU4EEW+3PsJnWKdQe8yAB3TxRJW6q/0qsY6siOVUpddsP8V!dBu/gP21mU55VeGsCpNOm53UsxGlQ4R5WwrLEh2m6yBySV4s/M/nRVa/4Oo9rpPEd70= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190920 Giles Todd writes: > On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:53:17 -0500, Jon Boone > wrote: > >> Morten Reistad writes: >> >> > How far can the dollar loyalty of overseas investors be stretched? During >> > Reagan's presidency the answer was 'incredibly far'. I think that answer >> > has changed now. >> >> Have you considered the consequences to the EU if the dollar falls >> much further? > > Judging by Trichet's recent comments, the ECB has. What is your > point? My comment was intended to elicit a dialogue, not as a smart assed remark. :-) My understanding is that newer members of the EU from the east mostly export to the EU itself, while older members export about 30% of their goods to the US. Does this mean Western European countries such as Germany and France are going to be affected more significantly than Poland? I saw an article (can't remember but I think it was the WSJ, though it may have been another source) that indicated a continuation of the fall of the dollar would cause smaller EU firms to have to outsource to China, etc. It seems like the down-side to US folks is that we'll have higher interest rates and at least a small amount of inflation (due to higher costs for imports). It seems like the EU and Japan will have low interest rates (though Japans can go no lower - they're already at 0%) and (likely) inflation as well. Is it not, in a sense, slitting their own throats for overseas investors to *stop* buying the dollar? --jon ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <23kmoc.2n72.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 62 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 09:00:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1101978003 193.217.159.243 (Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:00:03 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:00:03 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.powertech.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190924 In article , Jon Boone wrote: >Giles Todd writes: > >> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:53:17 -0500, Jon Boone >> wrote: >> >>> Morten Reistad writes: >>> >>> > How far can the dollar loyalty of overseas investors be stretched? During >>> > Reagan's presidency the answer was 'incredibly far'. I think that answer >>> > has changed now. >>> >>> Have you considered the consequences to the EU if the dollar falls >>> much further? >> >> Judging by Trichet's recent comments, the ECB has. What is your >> point? > > My comment was intended to elicit a dialogue, not as a smart assed > remark. :-) > > My understanding is that newer members of the EU from the east > mostly export to the EU itself, while older members export about 30% > of their goods to the US. Does this mean Western European countries > such as Germany and France are going to be affected more > significantly than Poland? > > I saw an article (can't remember but I think it was the WSJ, > though it may have been another source) that indicated a > continuation of the fall of the dollar would cause smaller EU firms > to have to outsource to China, etc. The entire EU is already shifting business on a vast scale; from the west to the east. Some business also shift to China and other SEA countries. In Scandinavia it has now become the norm to have production in the Baltics and in SE Asia. There is a definate self interest in developing your neighbour countries so we won't have another cold war front near us again. If you want to defend a high wage you must move to higher margin products. > > It seems like the down-side to US folks is that we'll have higher > interest rates and at least a small amount of inflation (due to > higher costs for imports). > > It seems like the EU and Japan will have low interest rates > (though Japans can go no lower - they're already at 0%) and (likely) > inflation as well. > > Is it not, in a sense, slitting their own throats for overseas > investors to *stop* buying the dollar? That never stopped them before. The dollar will depreciate until there is a material reason it shouldn't go further. -- mrr ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Message-ID: <20041202100325.033d13cb.steveo@eircom.net> References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.99-gtk2-20041024 (GTK+ 2.4.1; i586-pc-interix3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:03:25 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.12.14.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: newsread1.dllstx09.us.to.verio.net 1101981756 217.12.14.195 (Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:02:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:02:36 GMT Organization: NTT/VERIO Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.glorb.com!newspeer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!verio!newsread1.dllstx09.us.to.verio.net.POSTED!92c6ff8c!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190935 On 02 Dec 2004 09:05:44 GMT stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: > Time to order some stuff from the US while the exchange rate is good :-) Nah - time to wait for the bottom of the curve and buy a shitload of dollars then :) ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:31:12 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> From: Jon Boone Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:31:12 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:WGrVgGll3K2wtdjZWDFQITAnpFA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.84.208.206 X-Trace: sv3-qZ0Q79qFlIX+SfuX0WMspPVyyhBnB0sjWmQYuIFEjBvwCQ0gxZGmqbGmOai4+yHJdHObSvI2iQVx7ZT!06kNgXlMHP0rimqgi2TFEdo++FkAVebqWhV+kNraYXLT34SuvH1HUTO1CAk6MQUOU2w= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190897 Larry Elmore writes: > When I read that "values" played a role in the election, I didn't > think (based on conversations with friends, relatives and > co-workers) that it was gay-marriage or abortion nearly so much as > the perception that Bush _had_ values and believed in them, and that > Kerry had none whatsoever except a drive to do anything, say > anything, promise anything, just so long as it got him elected. They > didn't necessarily agree with Bush's values, and some vehemently > disagreed with _some_ of them, but Kerry aroused a deep unease and > uncertainty about whether or not he stood for anything at all except > getting him power. Which is exactly what I didn't vote for Kerry. Those who did and are now bemoaning the "stupidity" of those who didn't amaze me with their capacity for self-delusion. Love him or hate him, you can't say that Bush is exactly a surprise in what he does. --jon ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:50:50 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> From: Jon Boone Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:50:51 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:qf3MuHd8qCI2AhveiTVhZGNh4dQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.84.208.206 X-Trace: sv3-F841jC+JHmCRbk0004cm9id0hy3bU7bYsiK1Zjfwai33aFM81bVTCEznVlThT8bLougL1lMrQwWEkFB!KdSdPUw+DtijFyFqetGbVf/FCcPVLDEKW00MHp7gA/YnYT4zIAPcLVxTpSVeJhM5RHA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190900 blmblm@myrealbox.com writes: > Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do > at least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions > you're not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more > attractive choice? I don't trust John Kerry to do anything other than whatever he thinks will lead to his acquiring more power. This may or may not correlate with "pandering to public opinion polls". Best case with a Kerry win was that he would make positive changes to the country. Since those, in my mind, would lead to a decrease in his power, this seemed unlikely to happen. Worse case with Kerry was that he would make negative changes to the country. Since the ones in particular that I am concerned about would lead to a consolidation of his power (which is his apparent overriding concern), this seemed more likely. In case it isn't apparent, the Republicans intend to cause the Democrats to go the way of the Whig. They practiced this long and hard in Texas and changed the state from one which was dominated by Democrats to one in which no Democrat holds state-wide elected office. Even the ones in the legislature are reduced to preventing a quorum to have any impact on the process. This is why Bush never vetoed a single spending budget. This is why he let Ted Kennedy have such a prominent inflluence over the "No Child Left Behind" legislation. This is why he signed the bill providing Drug Benefits to Medicare recipients. They are pushing the Democrats further and further to the left, and the Democrats are rushing pell-mell to get there before they feel the Republicans breathing down their necks. The fracture has already begun. Southern Democrats either lose elections (like John Edwards would have had he run for Senate) or they agree with Zell Miller - the Democrat Pary is "A National Party No More". They don't mind that Republicans are reverting to type (i.e. Republicans were always more liberal than Democrats in the South). If the trend keeps up, you can expect some prominent Republicans like ex-Senator Phil Grahm to switch back to whatever replaces the Democrat Party in the South. Northern Democrats, on the other hand, are running wildly to the left and have declared (albeit timidly and not without taking it back later) that they don't intend to run "toward the center" with the idea of meeting the Southern Democrats half-way. It's a shame, really, that the country gave up on the idea of state sovereignty. "I disagree with you, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" is a noble sentiment. We used to have a comparable one: "My state thinks your state is insane/evil to have such and such a policy, but we'll defend to the death you're right to exercise your sovereignty within your own territory." Live free - or die. --jon ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:05:35 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 04 15:29:41 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.192 X-Trace: sv3-cnHMxCEEXjtY6E0sjY/YKH4amUSjj00b84vaQ9eOxWWG+GwXWsiX1yAXYR7XZSaSQAWjt03P1Z9zd7F!l9hjm1r5wUDv4gRqR/ziFeWf7GxjunMHEFaDVOkSM094G6aRwRqIyCh53OoktiezEA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190987 In article , Jon Boone wrote: >blmblm@myrealbox.com writes: > >> Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do >> at least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions >> you're not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more >> attractive choice? > > I don't trust John Kerry to do anything other than whatever he > thinks will lead to his acquiring more power. This may or may not > correlate with "pandering to public opinion polls". Kerry didn't do that. You are confusing him with other candidates. Kerry did everything so that he didn't alienate the far left. If he had pandered to the public opinion polls, he wouldn't have take the stands on social security, the war, and raising taxes that he did. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 29 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 00:00:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1102032010 193.217.159.243 (Fri, 03 Dec 2004 01:00:10 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 01:00:10 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.n-ix.net!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191030 In article , wrote: >In article , > Jon Boone wrote: >>blmblm@myrealbox.com writes: >> >>> Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do >>> at least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions >>> you're not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more >>> attractive choice? >> >> I don't trust John Kerry to do anything other than whatever he >> thinks will lead to his acquiring more power. This may or may not >> correlate with "pandering to public opinion polls". > >Kerry didn't do that. You are confusing him with other candidates. >Kerry did everything so that he didn't alienate the far left. >If he had pandered to the public opinion polls, he wouldn't have >take the stands on social security, the war, and raising taxes >that he did. Yess. Kerry has a consistent voting record as the furthers left-winger in the US Senate by a good margin. He went towards the center whenever he thought he could do a bargain for something. Therefore I keep saying : Pinko, not waffle. -- mrr ###### Message-ID: <41B33002.736DEAEC@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 16:10:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.137.228 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102263047 12.76.137.228 (Sun, 05 Dec 2004 16:10:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 16:10:47 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191176 Morten Reistad wrote: > ... snip ... > > "Kinder, Kirche, Küche" was one of the more prominent slogans of the > NSDAP, almost as as prominent as "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" . Much like the present administration. At least there seem to be some sensible people in the Republican party, as evidenced that over half of the cabinet has quit in disgust even before the completion of the stolen term. They will not be around to be blamed for the excesses of the elected term. Although the term "elected" may even be wrong, as evidenced by the slowly appearing misfeasance in Ohio. I was especially struck by the news conferences in Ottawa and Halifax. I have rarely seen any national leader of any country seem as bumbling as did Bush in contrast with Martin. Not only did he mouth platitudes, but he could instantaneously remouth them with virtually no change in word order. This may be connected with his insistence on a thick surrounding layer of yes-men. Let no dissonance disturb the slumber. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041128 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s52 1101950703 24.1.185.48 (Thu, 02 Dec 2004 01:25:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 01:25:03 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 01:25:03 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s52.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190909 Patrick Scheible wrote: > keith writes: > >>It was "point on". He couldn't get his message together at all. He has >>never been an executive, but a legislator. They are two different beasts. >> When was the last Senator to become president? (Hint: Kennedy) > Johnson and Nixon were both in the Senate. I think Keith means a serving Senator elected to the presidency. Johnson was already president when he ran for that office. Nixon was vice president when he ran in 1960 and lost by fraud to JFK, and was a private citizen when he ran in 1968. >>How many >> legislators in the past century? (two?) > We're already up to three without trying. Actually I think most of > them have been in the legislature at least for part of their career. > Having legislative experience is a huge help once in office. But it > seems to make it harder to get elected, at least since the modern era > of negative campaigning since 1960 or so. There are thousands of > votes as legislator, and almost all of them contain some elements one > legislator may not like. That's the legislative process. But they're > all grist for the campaign mill. > >>How many governors? (all but >>three?, including the two Senators) > I don't think Eisenhower was ever a governor. Elected presidents who were never a governor: Taft (R), Harding (R), Hoover (R), Truman (D), Eisenhower (R), Kennedy (D), Nixon (R), Bush 41 (R). Elected presidents who were never a legislator: Taft (R), Hoover (R), Eisenhower (R), Reagan (R), Bush 43 (R). Sitting senators elected president: Harding (R), Kennedy (D). >>Kennedy was not a super-liberal. He ran as a cold-warrior too. He cut >>taxes (though it was implemented under Johnson) and was a right >>conservative by today's standards (faschist the left would say today). > Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he > would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. "Far left"??? You've got to be kidding, or are way misinformed. An example of a far left domestic policy, please. --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:01:15 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 04 15:25:20 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 113 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.192 X-Trace: sv3-wUVnFRINS5slzDiCQhqD97KXBHWXkQEU05URpWj2zCdWI4+rO9zy3aOynvrNdefK6nE+yF+E7q2Ozmy!Oi0I0tCmhKIGunNTTffoSkqAAu4dA/Gp/SIfH6WZVarVQwq4LB+9x6pRerEGbU58Xw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190985 In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >Larry Elmore wrote: >>Morten Reistad wrote: >>> In article , >>> keith wrote: >>> >>>>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 +0000, Morten Reistad wrote: >>>> >>>>>In article , wrote: >>> >>>>>From here it surely seemed they went further than they have gone for >>>>>any candidate in many decades. >>>> >>>>The "press" sure did (and Dan Blather is gone for it), though I'm not so >>>>sure the Democratic machine did him any good. What shocked them is that >>>>they go *killed* in the House and Senate, which is unheard of in a >>>>mid-term election. >>>> >>>>Contrary to popular opinion, Kerry had a weak election committee (they >>>>were al well known to be losers), and then brought in the Clinton gang >>>>that really didn' thave his best interests in mind. Dick Morris had some >>>>really good articles about this. What a mess of a campaign Kerry ran (he >>>>didn't, because he's a legislator, not an executive). >>> >>> It remains a fact that the DNC made their most coherent effort in many >>> decades. (Clinton and Carter both ran their own shows). They really >>> went frantic over the "hate Bush" stuff. When this is the best they can do >>> we should all just get used to republican presidents. >> >>Ifthe Democrat Party ends up deciding that their main problem in the >>last election is that they didn't holler loud enough, weren't nasty >>enough, and need to "run to the left" in the future (as more than a few >>are wanting to do), then I think the Democrat Party will go the way of >>the Whig's in the 1850's. Personally, I think this would probably be a >>Good Thing, and depending on what supplants it, I might be very happy >>voting for the new guys. I'm not at all happy with many of the >>Republicans, and some scare hell out of me, but many more of the >>Democrats are even worse (just in a different way), IMHO. I was hoping >>the Religious Right would capture the Republican Party in the early 90's >>because I thought that would fracture them and lead to that group being >>marginalised by a new party (not the dain-bramaged Libertarian Party, >>but something more small-government and small-l libertarian than >>anything we've got now). The Republicans didn't, widened their base and >>have prospered instead. The Democrats might do the same, but their >>"leadership" seem increasingly divorced from reality, and I'm not sure >>they're capable of resisting the hard-core Left anymore. >> >>> OK, a pinko coming across as a waffer. But still a pinko. The waffler image >>> may actually be the most electable of the two. >> >>When I read that "values" played a role in the election, I didn't think >>(based on conversations with friends, relatives and co-workers) that it >>was gay-marriage or abortion nearly so much as the perception that Bush >>_had_ values and believed in them, and that Kerry had none whatsoever >>except a drive to do anything, say anything, promise anything, just so >>long as it got him elected. They didn't necessarily agree with Bush's >>values, and some vehemently disagreed with _some_ of them, but Kerry >>aroused a deep unease and uncertainty about whether or not he stood for >>anything at all except getting him power. > >Well .... This doesn't make sense to me, so maybe you can explain. >Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do at >least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions you're >not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more >attractive choice? Is it just that there's some appeal to a person >who appears to stand for something, even if it's something of which >you strongly disapprove? Is it that the person who appears not to >stand for anything in particular seems like a loose cannon, who >might do something even worse? though it seems like someone who's >as concerned with the public's opinion as Kerry is perceived to be -- >well, wouldn't this concern with the public's opinion keep him from >doing anything too wacky? > >I'm really curious about this. In my mind it's connected with the >polls asking "which candidate do you think is a stronger leader?" >as if being a strong leader were inherently and always good. All >other things being equal, sure, leadership skills are important to >the job being sought, but shouldn't it also matter which direction >the person wants to lead? > >Or is it more that people were willing to put up with Bush's stands >on issues they thought were of lesser importance because they thought >he was right about things they thought mattered more? It seems like >that's BAH's position .... But the situation is worse than this. It isn't about some things mattering more. It's about those other things won't matter at all if we lose this war. There won't be equal rights; there won't be a constitution; there won't be a court of law to reverse Bush's braindead implementations; there won't be a lifestyle that will allow consideration of people rights and equality and jobs and money to be a part of anybody's life. A lot of those country rubes understand this, even the Democrats who have not had their common sense organ surigcally removed. The lifestyle of western civilization is what those people were calling moral values. It's not PC to be against another religion so the exit polls were answered in acceptable terms. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: blmblm@myrealbox.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 3 Dec 2004 17:57:47 GMT Organization: None Lines: 85 Message-ID: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> X-Trace: individual.net 8WUkNMkI5n5F9jNsZqxFHwyqJqxgjy82+jA2pbPJOMWQhnn4X+ X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191091 In article , wrote: >In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >>Larry Elmore wrote: [ snip ] >>>When I read that "values" played a role in the election, I didn't think >>>(based on conversations with friends, relatives and co-workers) that it >>>was gay-marriage or abortion nearly so much as the perception that Bush >>>_had_ values and believed in them, and that Kerry had none whatsoever >>>except a drive to do anything, say anything, promise anything, just so >>>long as it got him elected. They didn't necessarily agree with Bush's >>>values, and some vehemently disagreed with _some_ of them, but Kerry >>>aroused a deep unease and uncertainty about whether or not he stood for >>>anything at all except getting him power. >> >>Well .... This doesn't make sense to me, so maybe you can explain. >>Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do at >>least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions you're >>not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more >>attractive choice? Is it just that there's some appeal to a person >>who appears to stand for something, even if it's something of which >>you strongly disapprove? Is it that the person who appears not to >>stand for anything in particular seems like a loose cannon, who >>might do something even worse? though it seems like someone who's >>as concerned with the public's opinion as Kerry is perceived to be -- >>well, wouldn't this concern with the public's opinion keep him from >>doing anything too wacky? >> >>I'm really curious about this. In my mind it's connected with the >>polls asking "which candidate do you think is a stronger leader?" >>as if being a strong leader were inherently and always good. All >>other things being equal, sure, leadership skills are important to >>the job being sought, but shouldn't it also matter which direction >>the person wants to lead? >> >>Or is it more that people were willing to put up with Bush's stands >>on issues they thought were of lesser importance because they thought >>he was right about things they thought mattered more? It seems like >>that's BAH's position .... > >But the situation is worse than this. It isn't about some things >mattering more. It's about those other things won't matter at >all if we lose this war. There won't be equal rights; there >won't be a constitution; there won't be a court of law to reverse >Bush's braindead implementations; there won't be a lifestyle >that will allow consideration of people rights and equality and >jobs and money to be a part of anybody's life. Well, this view explains why you support Mr. Bush even while making comments about how "as a single female" you're bothered by some of what he does. (You might explain sometime how being single comes into it. I get the "female" part, since I'm guessing all but the most socially conservative women would find something about Bush to not like, but -- single?) I'm not convinced that sticking with Bush makes it significantly more likely that we won't lose this war, but -- okay, fair enough, you do, and then of course you'd be willing to vote for the guy. >A lot of those country rubes understand this, even the Democrats >who have not had their common sense organ surigcally removed. >The lifestyle of western civilization is what those people >were calling moral values. It's not PC to be against another >religion so the exit polls were answered in acceptable terms. I'm deeply skeptical about this part, particularly if you're saying that the people who responded "moral values" to that possibly-poorly-worded exit poll question did so because they were worried about this clash of civiliations thing you're talking about. If that were so important to them, wouldn't they have responded "terrorism" or "the war in Iraq" or something? Now, maybe there *are* people who wouldn't describe the situation as emphatically as you but are still worried in some subliminal way that dumping Bush would make it more likely that the terrorists would win in a big way, and these people voted for Bush but would describe their reasons as "I like how he stands for something"? -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. -- -- blm ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 06:50:46 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 04 12:14:27 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 131 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.43 X-Trace: sv3-lrxkr+/Ann7dAgUReKxRP65W93VjHkSbmIXkXZaBVbWzdQHqLMlsP5k3/XsScKn6zq7xAVbyr2RVpwP!wsOou8UtToQ1cAsSX5T9BcWTX4ddR5TLkebgQ7Z6UYGsK3R7ayUe3vsnn6ToAmk29g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191123 In article <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >>>Larry Elmore wrote: > >[ snip ] > >>>>When I read that "values" played a role in the election, I didn't think >>>>(based on conversations with friends, relatives and co-workers) that it >>>>was gay-marriage or abortion nearly so much as the perception that Bush >>>>_had_ values and believed in them, and that Kerry had none whatsoever >>>>except a drive to do anything, say anything, promise anything, just so >>>>long as it got him elected. They didn't necessarily agree with Bush's >>>>values, and some vehemently disagreed with _some_ of them, but Kerry >>>>aroused a deep unease and uncertainty about whether or not he stood for >>>>anything at all except getting him power. >>> >>>Well .... This doesn't make sense to me, so maybe you can explain. >>>Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do at >>>least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions you're >>>not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more >>>attractive choice? Is it just that there's some appeal to a person >>>who appears to stand for something, even if it's something of which >>>you strongly disapprove? Is it that the person who appears not to >>>stand for anything in particular seems like a loose cannon, who >>>might do something even worse? though it seems like someone who's >>>as concerned with the public's opinion as Kerry is perceived to be -- >>>well, wouldn't this concern with the public's opinion keep him from >>>doing anything too wacky? >>> >>>I'm really curious about this. In my mind it's connected with the >>>polls asking "which candidate do you think is a stronger leader?" >>>as if being a strong leader were inherently and always good. All >>>other things being equal, sure, leadership skills are important to >>>the job being sought, but shouldn't it also matter which direction >>>the person wants to lead? >>> >>>Or is it more that people were willing to put up with Bush's stands >>>on issues they thought were of lesser importance because they thought >>>he was right about things they thought mattered more? It seems like >>>that's BAH's position .... >> >>But the situation is worse than this. It isn't about some things >>mattering more. It's about those other things won't matter at >>all if we lose this war. There won't be equal rights; there >>won't be a constitution; there won't be a court of law to reverse >>Bush's braindead implementations; there won't be a lifestyle >>that will allow consideration of people rights and equality and >>jobs and money to be a part of anybody's life. > >Well, this view explains why you support Mr. Bush even while making >comments about how "as a single female" you're bothered by some of >what he does. "Bothered" is not the word I would use. > ..(You might explain sometime how being single comes >into it. I get the "female" part, since I'm guessing all but the >most socially conservative women would find something about Bush >to not like, but -- single?) Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies males. Even those NOW females, who claim to be rabidly for equal rights no matter what sex, are leery of single females who don't need a sugar daddy to survive. You have noticed that the NOW types just transfer financial support from one male to a set of males a.k.a. "the government" for all support? > >I'm not convinced that sticking with Bush makes it significantly >more likely that we won't lose this war, It was 100% likely if Kerry's ideas were enacted. "Talk to them". "Go back to fighting them in Afghanistan." "Let the UN do it." Not to mention that the way the Democrat convention was managed; they tried to do all kinds of things that would make it easy for an attack. > ...but -- okay, fair enough, >you do, and then of course you'd be willing to vote for the guy. I had to. There was no other choice. Not to mention that a lot of people voted for Kerry because that's what they thought Bin Laden wanted them to do. They interpreted his message that, if you vote Kerry into office, I won't make a mess in your backyard. > >>A lot of those country rubes understand this, even the Democrats >>who have not had their common sense organ surigcally removed. >>The lifestyle of western civilization is what those people >>were calling moral values. It's not PC to be against another >>religion so the exit polls were answered in acceptable terms. > >I'm deeply skeptical about this part, particularly if you're >saying that the people who responded "moral values" to that >possibly-poorly-worded exit poll question did so because they were >worried about this clash of civiliations thing you're talking about. >If that were so important to them, wouldn't they have responded >"terrorism" or "the war in Iraq" or something? No because those are only aspects of the problem. The Taliban types are not tolerant of any other religion but their own (which is a degenerate form of Islam). Members of other religions who have an ability to extrapolate long-term know that the basic priciples of western civilization, such as tolerance, will be wiped out. > >Now, maybe there *are* people who wouldn't describe the situation as >emphatically as you but are still worried in some subliminal way >that dumping Bush would make it more likely that the terrorists >would win in a big way, and these people voted for Bush but would >describe their reasons as "I like how he stands for something"? Never underestimate the ability to plan. No matter what Bush does, people can plan. Bush is predictable. Kerry was absolutely not predictable. Nobody had an idea what he would say today, let alone, tomorrow. If he had said, I'll raise income taxes 1%, people would be able to plan for that. Especially in a time of not knowing when the next mess will happen, people need to be able to know what the PHB will do. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: blmblm@myrealbox.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 4 Dec 2004 13:56:58 GMT Organization: None Lines: 172 Message-ID: <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net> References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> X-Trace: individual.net 0QNiUC9JF10vkwZmt4p0kQdPLl5NKg6TAbmHAvIhjehnlxbLl8 X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191136 In article , wrote: >In article <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>In article , wrote: >>>In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >>>>Larry Elmore wrote: [ snip ] >>>>Well .... This doesn't make sense to me, so maybe you can explain. >>>>Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do at >>>>least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions you're >>>>not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more >>>>attractive choice? Is it just that there's some appeal to a person >>>>who appears to stand for something, even if it's something of which >>>>you strongly disapprove? Is it that the person who appears not to >>>>stand for anything in particular seems like a loose cannon, who >>>>might do something even worse? though it seems like someone who's >>>>as concerned with the public's opinion as Kerry is perceived to be -- >>>>well, wouldn't this concern with the public's opinion keep him from >>>>doing anything too wacky? >>>> >>>>I'm really curious about this. In my mind it's connected with the >>>>polls asking "which candidate do you think is a stronger leader?" >>>>as if being a strong leader were inherently and always good. All >>>>other things being equal, sure, leadership skills are important to >>>>the job being sought, but shouldn't it also matter which direction >>>>the person wants to lead? >>>> >>>>Or is it more that people were willing to put up with Bush's stands >>>>on issues they thought were of lesser importance because they thought >>>>he was right about things they thought mattered more? It seems like >>>>that's BAH's position .... >>> >>>But the situation is worse than this. It isn't about some things >>>mattering more. It's about those other things won't matter at >>>all if we lose this war. There won't be equal rights; there >>>won't be a constitution; there won't be a court of law to reverse >>>Bush's braindead implementations; there won't be a lifestyle >>>that will allow consideration of people rights and equality and >>>jobs and money to be a part of anybody's life. >> >>Well, this view explains why you support Mr. Bush even while making >>comments about how "as a single female" you're bothered by some of >>what he does. > >"Bothered" is not the word I would use. > >> ..(You might explain sometime how being single comes >>into it. I get the "female" part, since I'm guessing all but the >>most socially conservative women would find something about Bush >>to not like, but -- single?) > >Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. >Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by >myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies >males. Even those NOW females, who claim to be rabidly for equal >rights no matter what sex, are leery of single females who don't >need a sugar daddy to survive. You have noticed that the NOW >types just transfer financial support from one male to a set >of males a.k.a. "the government" for all support? Hm! (Is there an emoticon for surprise and "I wouldn't have thought you were going to say *that* ...." ?) Well, now I'll know better how to interpret "as a single female ...." And while I suspect that in "you have noticed ...." that was a generic "you" -- no, I hadn't thought of it that way, and I think it's at least potentially misleading to claim that NOW is leery of "single females who don't need a sugar daddy". If you want to claim that most NOW members are in favor of a pretty big government safety net, yeah, no argument, but I've never heard anything from the organization that suggests that women are more entitled to this support than men. They do go on sometimes about the needs of women with children, but I would have said this had to do more with the "with children" part than with gender. (And they do seem to have an annoying tendency to assume that all women are or will be mothers. But that's another topic ....) Then again, maybe you have more of a point than I thought. My first reaction was "no, it's the right-wing types who want to promote marriage [ == human sugar daddy ] over government support, while NOW is against that" -- but maybe this just means NOW prefers a governmental sugar daddy .... If you're saying that NOW encourages women, more then men, to depend on others for support -- I'm skeptical. >>I'm not convinced that sticking with Bush makes it significantly >>more likely that we won't lose this war, > >It was 100% likely if Kerry's ideas were enacted. "Talk to them". >"Go back to fighting them in Afghanistan." "Let the UN do it." >Not to mention that the way the Democrat convention was managed; >they tried to do all kinds of things that would make it easy >for an attack. Like what? >> ...but -- okay, fair enough, >>you do, and then of course you'd be willing to vote for the guy. > >I had to. There was no other choice. Not to mention that a >lot of people voted for Kerry because that's what they thought >Bin Laden wanted them to do. They interpreted his message >that, if you vote Kerry into office, I won't make a mess in your >backyard. Is this how you'd describe people who voted for Kerry because they felt like Bush has been a great recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, and so replacing him would reduce the chances of further attacks? I find it a little inflammatory to describe such people as doing something "because that's what they thought Bin Laden wanted them to do" -- but okay, political rhetoric, and both sides do way too much of this sort of thing (e.g., the left acting as if the right *wants* poor people to be miserable, when at worst they just don't care). >>>A lot of those country rubes understand this, even the Democrats >>>who have not had their common sense organ surigcally removed. >>>The lifestyle of western civilization is what those people >>>were calling moral values. It's not PC to be against another >>>religion so the exit polls were answered in acceptable terms. >> >>I'm deeply skeptical about this part, particularly if you're >>saying that the people who responded "moral values" to that >>possibly-poorly-worded exit poll question did so because they were >>worried about this clash of civiliations thing you're talking about. >>If that were so important to them, wouldn't they have responded >>"terrorism" or "the war in Iraq" or something? > >No because those are only aspects of the problem. The Taliban >types are not tolerant of any other religion but their own >(which is a degenerate form of Islam). Members of other >religions who have an ability to extrapolate long-term know >that the basic priciples of western civilization, such as >tolerance, will be wiped out. Um, right. My perception lately has been that the people going on the most about "moral values" (in the context of politics) are in fact the ones least likely to be tolerant of other religions. Maybe they're not in the same league as the Taliban, but they sure seem to be headed that way. >>Now, maybe there *are* people who wouldn't describe the situation as >>emphatically as you but are still worried in some subliminal way >>that dumping Bush would make it more likely that the terrorists >>would win in a big way, and these people voted for Bush but would >>describe their reasons as "I like how he stands for something"? > >Never underestimate the ability to plan. No matter what Bush >does, people can plan. Bush is predictable. Kerry was absolutely >not predictable. Nobody had an idea what he would say today, >let alone, tomorrow. If he had said, I'll raise income >taxes 1%, people would be able to plan for that. Especially in >a time of not knowing when the next mess will happen, people need >to be able to know what the PHB will do. Who would have predicted, four years ago, that Bush would push a decidedly interventionist foreign policy, with aspects that sure strike me as "nation building"? Maybe he responded correctly to unexpected events, but still -- predictable?? only if nothing else unexpected happens. But as for "predictably bad" being preferable to "who knows?" -- you know, I think this does sort of answer my original question. I don't know that *I* would make this choice, but I guess I can understand how someone else might. -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 08:07:14 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 04 13:30:45 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 241 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.157 X-Trace: sv3-9SN4t9qt1ZkixQ1pR6WAoo48fhMDE7QZdBMiw5OR6JToeFp2FoQpXBOHy+/jfW/PN5VRk/L3nJnipBQ!hPvVPK5EN5Y1qAmXCR/JES6JzBGqTVQK2CvBS2SBk5Fh7YrLeP1sHX2vJ8s9vl3RZ8w= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191174 In article <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>In article , wrote: >>>>In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>>>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >>>>>Larry Elmore wrote: > >[ snip ] > >>>>>Well .... This doesn't make sense to me, so maybe you can explain. >>>>>Given a choice between (1) a person who you're pretty sure will do at >>>>>least some things you don't like and (2) a person whose actions you're >>>>>not sure you can predict with any accuracy, why is (1) a more >>>>>attractive choice? Is it just that there's some appeal to a person >>>>>who appears to stand for something, even if it's something of which >>>>>you strongly disapprove? Is it that the person who appears not to >>>>>stand for anything in particular seems like a loose cannon, who >>>>>might do something even worse? though it seems like someone who's >>>>>as concerned with the public's opinion as Kerry is perceived to be -- >>>>>well, wouldn't this concern with the public's opinion keep him from >>>>>doing anything too wacky? >>>>> >>>>>I'm really curious about this. In my mind it's connected with the >>>>>polls asking "which candidate do you think is a stronger leader?" >>>>>as if being a strong leader were inherently and always good. All >>>>>other things being equal, sure, leadership skills are important to >>>>>the job being sought, but shouldn't it also matter which direction >>>>>the person wants to lead? >>>>> >>>>>Or is it more that people were willing to put up with Bush's stands >>>>>on issues they thought were of lesser importance because they thought >>>>>he was right about things they thought mattered more? It seems like >>>>>that's BAH's position .... >>>> >>>>But the situation is worse than this. It isn't about some things >>>>mattering more. It's about those other things won't matter at >>>>all if we lose this war. There won't be equal rights; there >>>>won't be a constitution; there won't be a court of law to reverse >>>>Bush's braindead implementations; there won't be a lifestyle >>>>that will allow consideration of people rights and equality and >>>>jobs and money to be a part of anybody's life. >>> >>>Well, this view explains why you support Mr. Bush even while making >>>comments about how "as a single female" you're bothered by some of >>>what he does. >> >>"Bothered" is not the word I would use. >> >>> ..(You might explain sometime how being single comes >>>into it. I get the "female" part, since I'm guessing all but the >>>most socially conservative women would find something about Bush >>>to not like, but -- single?) >> >>Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. >>Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by >>myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies >>males. Even those NOW females, who claim to be rabidly for equal >>rights no matter what sex, are leery of single females who don't >>need a sugar daddy to survive. You have noticed that the NOW >>types just transfer financial support from one male to a set >>of males a.k.a. "the government" for all support? > >Hm! (Is there an emoticon for surprise and "I wouldn't have >thought you were going to say *that* ...." ?) Well, now I'll >know better how to interpret "as a single female ...." > >And while I suspect that in "you have noticed ...." that was a >generic "you" -- no, I hadn't thought of it that way, and I think >it's at least potentially misleading to claim that NOW is leery >of "single females who don't need a sugar daddy". Sigh! You should become one and see how we're treated. > .. If you want to >claim that most NOW members are in favor of a pretty big government >safety net, yeah, no argument, but I've never heard anything from >the organization that suggests that women are more entitled to >this support than men. Then you haven't really looked at how EEO is working (or rather, not working). You really should read the Equal Rights Amendment sometime (I voted against it because it had holes that implies that all animals were equal but pigs were more equal). > .. They do go on sometimes about the needs >of women with children, but I would have said this had to do more >with the "with children" part than with gender. That's just policians' hype to convince women that they're deprived. > .. (And they do >seem to have an annoying tendency to assume that all women are >or will be mothers. But that's another topic ....) No, it's not another topic. It's the same problem. > >Then again, maybe you have more of a point than I thought. My >first reaction was "no, it's the right-wing types who want to >promote marriage [ == human sugar daddy ] over government support, >while NOW is against that" -- but maybe this just means NOW prefers >a governmental sugar daddy .... All you have to do is follow the fucking money. Are these women willing to do the work that gets them the stuff they claim they want and need? NO. They want it given to them on a tax platter; that's just sugar-daddyism IMO. > >If you're saying that NOW encourages women, more then men, to >depend on others for support -- I'm skeptical. It's worse than that. The plan is to move that dependency from people to an faceless entity that has unending flows of cash. This is not fiscal responsibility. > >>>I'm not convinced that sticking with Bush makes it significantly >>>more likely that we won't lose this war, >> >>It was 100% likely if Kerry's ideas were enacted. "Talk to them". >>"Go back to fighting them in Afghanistan." "Let the UN do it." >>Not to mention that the way the Democrat convention was managed; >>they tried to do all kinds of things that would make it easy >>for an attack. > >Like what? I will assume that you are aware of some of the security problems involved in staging these conventions. Kerry wanted to "thank" everybody by having the Boston Pops put on a show that had the glitz equivalent of the Pops' Fourth of July extravagandza. The expectation was that at least a million people would come in to see the show. He wanted to do this in the middle of the convention. Despite all of the NO!!! screams, he continued to demand the show go on. He wouldn't even consider putting on the thing later...like in September. It had to be that week. > >>> ...but -- okay, fair enough, >>>you do, and then of course you'd be willing to vote for the guy. >> >>I had to. There was no other choice. Not to mention that a >>lot of people voted for Kerry because that's what they thought >>Bin Laden wanted them to do. They interpreted his message >>that, if you vote Kerry into office, I won't make a mess in your >>backyard. > >Is this how you'd describe people who voted for Kerry because they >felt like Bush has been a great recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, and >so replacing him would reduce the chances of further attacks? I'm saying that some people voted for Kerry purely based on Bin Laden's message. >I find it a little inflammatory to describe such people as doing >something "because that's what they thought Bin Laden wanted >them to do" -- I am reporting what people said!!! When it was pointed out to these people that obeying Bin Laden wouldn't stop him from making messes, they became unhappy (being made a fool does that). > .. but okay, political rhetoric, and both sides >do way too much of this sort of thing (e.g., the left acting >as if the right *wants* poor people to be miserable, when at >worst they just don't care). > >>>>A lot of those country rubes understand this, even the Democrats >>>>who have not had their common sense organ surigcally removed. >>>>The lifestyle of western civilization is what those people >>>>were calling moral values. It's not PC to be against another >>>>religion so the exit polls were answered in acceptable terms. >>> >>>I'm deeply skeptical about this part, particularly if you're >>>saying that the people who responded "moral values" to that >>>possibly-poorly-worded exit poll question did so because they were >>>worried about this clash of civiliations thing you're talking about. >>>If that were so important to them, wouldn't they have responded >>>"terrorism" or "the war in Iraq" or something? >> >>No because those are only aspects of the problem. The Taliban >>types are not tolerant of any other religion but their own >>(which is a degenerate form of Islam). Members of other >>religions who have an ability to extrapolate long-term know >>that the basic priciples of western civilization, such as >>tolerance, will be wiped out. > >Um, right. My perception lately has been that the people going >on the most about "moral values" (in the context of politics) are >in fact the ones least likely to be tolerant of other religions. So? Logical consistency isn't necessary. >Maybe they're not in the same league as the Taliban, but they >sure seem to be headed that way. Of course. That's why Bush scares the hell out of me. But none of this matters if everybody in the country is given the choice of becoming a Muslim or get shot. > >>>Now, maybe there *are* people who wouldn't describe the situation as >>>emphatically as you but are still worried in some subliminal way >>>that dumping Bush would make it more likely that the terrorists >>>would win in a big way, and these people voted for Bush but would >>>describe their reasons as "I like how he stands for something"? >> >>Never underestimate the ability to plan. No matter what Bush >>does, people can plan. Bush is predictable. Kerry was absolutely >>not predictable. Nobody had an idea what he would say today, >>let alone, tomorrow. If he had said, I'll raise income >>taxes 1%, people would be able to plan for that. Especially in >>a time of not knowing when the next mess will happen, people need >>to be able to know what the PHB will do. > >Who would have predicted, four years ago, that Bush would push >a decidedly interventionist foreign policy, with aspects that sure >strike me as "nation building"? Maybe he responded correctly to >unexpected events, but still -- predictable?? only if nothing >else unexpected happens. > >But as for "predictably bad" being preferable to "who knows?" -- >you know, I think this does sort of answer my original question. >I don't know that *I* would make this choice, but I guess I can >understand how someone else might. Then you're not being honest with yourself. You would not tolerate working for a company who randomly paid its workers. You want to be able to plan your incoming money so that you can borrow to buy a house, or a car or pay for food. If you don't know if you'll have money this week you won't buy prime rib. You also need to have enough information to plan how you spend your time. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: blmblm@myrealbox.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 6 Dec 2004 14:08:43 GMT Organization: None Lines: 187 Message-ID: <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net> References: <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net> X-Trace: individual.net wRUkbuxLzT8MJuQ2fo1gsgA/tgHnWJrSK7rvQPoky1PtOjbNBL X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191217 In article , wrote: >In article <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>In article , wrote: >>>In article <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>>In article , wrote: >>>>>In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com >wrote: >>>>>>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >>>>>>Larry Elmore wrote: >> >>[ snip ] >> [ snip ] >>>>Well, this view explains why you support Mr. Bush even while making >>>>comments about how "as a single female" you're bothered by some of >>>>what he does. >>> >>>"Bothered" is not the word I would use. >>> >>>> ..(You might explain sometime how being single comes >>>>into it. I get the "female" part, since I'm guessing all but the >>>>most socially conservative women would find something about Bush >>>>to not like, but -- single?) >>> >>>Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. >>>Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by >>>myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies >>>males. Even those NOW females, who claim to be rabidly for equal >>>rights no matter what sex, are leery of single females who don't >>>need a sugar daddy to survive. You have noticed that the NOW >>>types just transfer financial support from one male to a set >>>of males a.k.a. "the government" for all support? >> >>Hm! (Is there an emoticon for surprise and "I wouldn't have >>thought you were going to say *that* ...." ?) Well, now I'll >>know better how to interpret "as a single female ...." >> >>And while I suspect that in "you have noticed ...." that was a >>generic "you" -- no, I hadn't thought of it that way, and I think >>it's at least potentially misleading to claim that NOW is leery >>of "single females who don't need a sugar daddy". > >Sigh! You should become one and see how we're treated. "Become"? I'm female, not married, and not financially dependent on anyone else. Close enough? I've been making my own financial decisions since I graduated from college (>20 years ago) and not noticing any particular male disapproval. No idea why your experience and mine would be so different in this respect .... >> .. If you want to >>claim that most NOW members are in favor of a pretty big government >>safety net, yeah, no argument, but I've never heard anything from >>the organization that suggests that women are more entitled to >>this support than men. > >Then you haven't really looked at how EEO is working (or rather, >not working). You really should read the Equal Rights Amendment >sometime (I voted against it because it had holes that implies >that all animals were equal but pigs were more equal). This must be a state ERA? since you wouldn't have been voting on the federal amendment, and it doesn't seem to contain any such holes. (Complete text as found by a quick Google search: "Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.") >> .. They do go on sometimes about the needs >>of women with children, but I would have said this had to do more >>with the "with children" part than with gender. > >That's just policians' hype to convince women that they're >deprived. > >> .. (And they do >>seem to have an annoying tendency to assume that all women are >>or will be mothers. But that's another topic ....) > >No, it's not another topic. It's the same problem. How so? [ snip of some points I don't want to debate further -- lack of time, lack of interest, etc. ] >>>>I'm not convinced that sticking with Bush makes it significantly >>>>more likely that we won't lose this war, >>> >>>It was 100% likely if Kerry's ideas were enacted. "Talk to them". >>>"Go back to fighting them in Afghanistan." "Let the UN do it." >>>Not to mention that the way the Democrat convention was managed; >>>they tried to do all kinds of things that would make it easy >>>for an attack. >> >>Like what? > >I will assume that you are aware of some of the security problems >involved in staging these conventions. Kerry wanted to "thank" >everybody by having the Boston Pops put on a show that had the >glitz equivalent of the Pops' Fourth of July extravagandza. >The expectation was that at least a million people would come in >to see the show. He wanted to do this in the middle of the >convention. Despite all of the NO!!! screams, he continued >to demand the show go on. He wouldn't even consider putting >on the thing later...like in September. It had to be that week. That does sound a little misguided. (But how would September have been better?) >>>> ...but -- okay, fair enough, >>>>you do, and then of course you'd be willing to vote for the guy. >>> >>>I had to. There was no other choice. Not to mention that a >>>lot of people voted for Kerry because that's what they thought >>>Bin Laden wanted them to do. They interpreted his message >>>that, if you vote Kerry into office, I won't make a mess in your >>>backyard. >> >>Is this how you'd describe people who voted for Kerry because they >>felt like Bush has been a great recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, and >>so replacing him would reduce the chances of further attacks? > >I'm saying that some people voted for Kerry purely based on Bin >Laden's message. > >>I find it a little inflammatory to describe such people as doing >>something "because that's what they thought Bin Laden wanted >>them to do" -- > >I am reporting what people said!!! When it was pointed out to >these people that obeying Bin Laden wouldn't stop him from >making messes, they became unhappy (being made a fool does that). I still find it really hard to imagine anyone in this country explicitly saying that they were following Bin Laden's instructions. Can you point me to references? newspaper articles, letters to editors, Usenet postings, rants on personal Web pages, ....? [ snip of more stuff I don't want to debate further ] >>>>Now, maybe there *are* people who wouldn't describe the situation as >>>>emphatically as you but are still worried in some subliminal way >>>>that dumping Bush would make it more likely that the terrorists >>>>would win in a big way, and these people voted for Bush but would >>>>describe their reasons as "I like how he stands for something"? >>> >>>Never underestimate the ability to plan. No matter what Bush >>>does, people can plan. Bush is predictable. Kerry was absolutely >>>not predictable. Nobody had an idea what he would say today, >>>let alone, tomorrow. If he had said, I'll raise income >>>taxes 1%, people would be able to plan for that. Especially in >>>a time of not knowing when the next mess will happen, people need >>>to be able to know what the PHB will do. >> >>Who would have predicted, four years ago, that Bush would push >>a decidedly interventionist foreign policy, with aspects that sure >>strike me as "nation building"? Maybe he responded correctly to >>unexpected events, but still -- predictable?? only if nothing >>else unexpected happens. >> >>But as for "predictably bad" being preferable to "who knows?" -- >>you know, I think this does sort of answer my original question. >>I don't know that *I* would make this choice, but I guess I can >>understand how someone else might. > >Then you're not being honest with yourself. You would not >tolerate working for a company who randomly paid its workers. Well .... What if the choices are between a predictable subsistence income and an income that fluctuates between subsistence and affluence? That would be a better analogy, though granted I can't think of any companies that pay their workers that way. My other point is that we didn't know in 2000 what Bush would do in response to a major terrorist attack. If something equally unimagined happens in the next four years, how will he react? We don't know. >You want to be able to plan your incoming money so that you >can borrow to buy a house, or a car or pay for food. If >you don't know if you'll have money this week you won't buy >prime rib. You also need to have enough information to plan >how you spend your time. -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041128 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s53 1101951506 24.1.185.48 (Thu, 02 Dec 2004 01:38:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 01:38:26 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 01:38:26 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s53.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190911 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, > Larry Elmore wrote: > >> ...then I think the Democrat Party will go the way of the Whig's in >> the 1850's. Personally, I think this would probably be a Good >> Thing, and depending on what supplants it, > That's why I'm worried; the replacement could get worse. I don't think so. If the Dems go further left and more hysterical, the people that would abandon the party will be the sensible ones. A party that picked up the bulk of these unhappy Democrats would also be very likely to pick up quite a few people that have reluctantly voted Republican in the last few elections. I'm not sure how a new party (at least one that could be successful) could be worse than the current ones, but whatever the political version of Murphy's Law is might apply. --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 09:53:32 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 04 15:17:38 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.192 X-Trace: sv3-nxe+4BphDs1D97D9jQsmUhd/S+KbBXIU0qOIa4mDQ2waXbKI3k9vtYtorOjudk0hkYN/vXAerXMQ+Qh!Ne4Wph40cLgRBPq4+CtyAIqydblC+igTQvv3kQ6RJMeDp7+GXKyotH4z8I2rTMKbdQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190982 In article , Larry Elmore wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >> Larry Elmore wrote: >> >>>...then I think the Democrat Party will go the way of >>>the Whig's in the 1850's. Personally, I think this would probably be a >>>Good Thing, and depending on what supplants it, >> >> >> That's why I'm worried; the replacement could get worse. > >I don't think so. If the Dems go further left and more hysterical, the >people that would abandon the party will be the sensible ones. A party >that picked up the bulk of these unhappy Democrats would also be very >likely to pick up quite a few people that have reluctantly voted >Republican in the last few elections. I'm not sure how a new party (at >least one that could be successful) could be worse than the current >ones, but whatever the political version of Murphy's Law is might apply. Sigh! You don't have wonder about how it could be worse. Take a look at Ross Perot. This guy was mentally unstable, headed a pretty successful party. We could end up with a dictator of the viscious variety easily. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Patrick Scheible Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 01 Dec 2004 15:43:45 -0800 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cache-Post-Path: yasure!unknown@cascadia.drizzle.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!nntpfeed.zonnet.nl!feeder1.cambrium.nl!feeder2.cambrium.nl!feed.tweaknews.nl!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190899 keith writes: > It was "point on". He couldn't get his message together at all. He has > never been an executive, but a legislator. They are two different beasts. > When was the last Senator to become president? (Hint: Kennedy) Johnson and Nixon were both in the Senate. > How many > legislators in the past century? (two?) We're already up to three without trying. Actually I think most of them have been in the legislature at least for part of their career. Having legislative experience is a huge help once in office. But it seems to make it harder to get elected, at least since the modern era of negative campaigning since 1960 or so. There are thousands of votes as legislator, and almost all of them contain some elements one legislator may not like. That's the legislative process. But they're all grist for the campaign mill. > How many governors? (all but > three?, including the two Senators) I don't think Eisenhower was ever a governor. > Kennedy was not a super-liberal. He ran as a cold-warrior too. He cut > taxes (though it was implemented under Johnson) and was a right > conservative by today's standards (faschist the left would say today). Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. -- Patrick ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 05:45:33 +0100 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> Reply-To: g@todd.nu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net 0myd7rqM/59aTeOhNtl6ew7bJ+uginD4pj3m/ew8TKVMdZ/l0= X-Orig-Path: phb!nobody Cancel-Lock: sha1:gtF2WFH1nIDDkiaImBFDBk8tmb4= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190915 On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:53:17 -0500, Jon Boone wrote: > Morten Reistad writes: > > > How far can the dollar loyalty of overseas investors be stretched? During > > Reagan's presidency the answer was 'incredibly far'. I think that answer > > has changed now. > > Have you considered the consequences to the EU if the dollar falls > much further? Judging by Trichet's recent comments, the ECB has. What is your point? Giles. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 02 Dec 2004 09:05:44 GMT Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust86.tnt1.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1101978344 news-text.dial.pipex.com 16583 62.188.130.86:1567 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsoutpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190925 On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:53:17 -0500, Jon Boone wrote: >Morten Reistad writes: > >> How far can the dollar loyalty of overseas investors be stretched? During >> Reagan's presidency the answer was 'incredibly far'. I think that answer >> has changed now. > > Have you considered the consequences to the EU if the dollar falls > much further? They were discussing this on tv yesterday... The UK is watching closely as the dollar edges closer to the 2 for a pound mark. It won't have a *huge* impact other than making our exports to the US more expensive, it's already hit Jaguar quite hard, but only about 15% of our overseas trade is with the US these days - down from around 20% 5 yrs ago. It makes oil cheaper (it's priced in dollars) but that's a mixed blessing for the UK as we're still a net exporter of oil... Time to order some stuff from the US while the exchange rate is good :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 2 Dec 2004 20:02:35 GMT Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> X-Trace: individual.net YQxswbCTFWJHHX2Ie+bflQJ7X2RIXxeBQiwNMprbLczH4FWfex User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191012 On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:08:16 -0500, Jon Boone wrote: > My understanding is that newer members of the EU from the east > mostly export to the EU itself, while older members export about 30% > of their goods to the US. Does this mean Western European countries > such as Germany and France are going to be affected more > significantly than Poland? > > I saw an article (can't remember but I think it was the WSJ, > though it may have been another source) that indicated a > continuation of the fall of the dollar would cause smaller EU firms > to have to outsource to China, etc. > > It seems like the down-side to US folks is that we'll have higher > interest rates and at least a small amount of inflation (due to > higher costs for imports). > > It seems like the EU and Japan will have low interest rates > (though Japans can go no lower - they're already at 0%) and (likely) > inflation as well. > > Is it not, in a sense, slitting their own throats for overseas > investors to *stop* buying the dollar? Nothing anyone can do about all this. The root of the problem is the incredible price of producing product in China. 50 years ago, most highgrade product (anything, cars, Tvs, gadgets) were prduced in Yurop or the US. Now its best produced by East or South Asia. These countried are regaining the place in the world that they lost in the 1600's.. The US will be carried in some way by its gigantic agricultural production. Yurop hasn't that. Tough times ahead. Don't bother learning Mandarin, your boss will be able to speak English. The present bother in the Middle East is like dogs fighting as a truck bears down on them. -- greymaus 97.025% of statistics are wrong ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 06:25:17 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 03 Dec 04 11:49:10 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 79 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.24 X-Trace: sv3-cE4N1b6o7NLobkOqvaVPqI7CwyOn6XAe3ctLkBE5T1kazta3R/UZlPJBK67BcFlCublmE4jR7XACNmB!ZCI170ZFG90MATVztR65U+zoC24rwPydDyFkc4r4Jdb5ix3qCOWnjRf4MhZnT4WA6Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191066 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , >keith wrote: >>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:00:02 +0000, Morten Reistad wrote: >>> They weren't particularly pro-Bush. They were deeply alarmed by the >>> other side. >> >>It wasn't just tha Amish. It was the whole center. > >Bingo. I think they saw the pinko below the waffling. > >It is also interesting to see that the "red" america is the rural, >"wilderness" while the blue is "urban". You should wonder at the color scheme and the image implication that rural is the pinko. Now note that those in the wilderness actually have some idea that milk comes from cows. That it requires work to build something. That throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it. > >>>>> ..The US electorate will not accept a democrat-style >>>>>left winger. They are simply unelectable. Think "McGovern", and >>>>>"Mondale" as references. >>>>> >>>>>They haven't had a candidate succeed on that recipe since Kennedy. >> >>Kennedy was not a super-liberal. He ran as a cold-warrior too. He cut >>taxes (though it was implemented under Johnson) and was a right >>conservative by today's standards (faschist the left would say today). > >Yep. Imagine him making the Democrat ticket today. Not!. > >>>>Now look at how Kennedy was picked. >>> >>> Kennedy only barely made it to the presidency too. >> >>A little illegal voting in Chicago helped. > >Back then there really was a Democrat party machine to back the >candidates. And that's how he was picked. IIRC, that's why primaries happened. >>> The US may be the only superpower left, but it will go broke if they try >>> to run the show as solo as they are trying to do. >> >>Exactly what does "Old Europe" (in particular France and Germany) have to >>offer, except resistance. They have no military left (the DeGaulle has >>always been the joke of the "seas"). Their prime "help" in Iraq has been >>the "Oil for Food" corruption. Yeah, we need more of that! > >Money. > >Lots of it. You mean outlays. France, Germany and Russia were more interested in incoming monies w.r.t. Iraq. > >That requires some diplomacy, and to recruit the eurocrats for this >cause. They will insist on a UN role in things; because of a legalistic >world view. You keep assuming that the enemy is somebody who agrees to play the same game, honoring those legalities. They don't. It is heresy to put the European legalistic rules above their Shariah(sp?). The only time they use those laws is as a tactic for the sole purpose of delaying retaliations. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 05:40:11 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <07f2r0d3jjn1j30t0luh6im9fjea0qpbpv@4ax.com> Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:/42DmHexmw1MhTMi6IEL6WqQLTE= References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newshub.sdsu.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191114 On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:08:16 -0500, Jon Boone wrote: > Is it not, in a sense, slitting their own throats for overseas > investors to *stop* buying the dollar? That has been the logic of Asian central banks so far, based largely on the well-known reasons you put forward. One has to question how sensible it is, though. It depends on how long the dollar remains a currency worth making investments in. At the limit, once the paper dollars are printed on is worth more than the face value of the notes then even the most determinedly mercantilist central bank will probably abandon this strategy. There are already hints that this is beginning to happen even before the limit has been reached. There have been other reserve currencies in the past (gold, silver, sterling, for example). They stopped being reserve currencies once they were no longer useful for that purpose. There is no reason to presume that the same thing could never happen to the dollar. Giles. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 20:16:48 -0600 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 18:16:48 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.18.133.20 X-Trace: sv3-gNAfWbISp6CjmSMxjQgWWvXBPwkU96fegyJAYGQSXTR467gg7/mWz1hjyD+nt+bWv0JZNXJRfbjcoM7!wtQi7orDSyYmg8Yh/7+2B6RhgFQJWBQGqE9VS0pG4+kteBFPftAM/n2y2LM6SP0IMXkFOl39hInf!mBM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191161 wrote in message news:RJSdndGTIbI7LyzcRVn-oQ@rcn.net... > Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. > Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by > myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies > males. > Yes it does, and for good reason. It goes against basic hardwired programming, at least for some of us. Males are supposed to support females so they'll take care of the kids full time. Invalidate the premise and all kinds of bad things happen...like changing diapers. :) There's an old German expression, one of the few I remember from Herr Doktor Professor Whatisname's class. "Kinder, Kirche, Kuche", children, the Church, and the kitchen. And lest I be mistaken for one of those MCPs (no, not the OS, the kind that oinks and is often found in pigpens swilling Dixie Beer while watching Tractor Pulls on TV), I did buy shoes for my wife. Jack Peacock ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 31 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 11:00:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1102244403 193.217.159.243 (Sun, 05 Dec 2004 12:00:03 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 12:00:03 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uninett.no!news.powertech.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191166 In article <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net>, Jack Peacock wrote: > wrote in message news:RJSdndGTIbI7LyzcRVn-oQ@rcn.net... >> Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. >> Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by >> myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies >> males. >> >Yes it does, and for good reason. It goes against basic hardwired >programming, at least for some of us. Males are supposed to support females >so they'll take care of the kids full time. Invalidate the premise and all >kinds of bad things happen...like changing diapers. :) > >There's an old German expression, one of the few I remember from Herr Doktor >Professor Whatisname's class. "Kinder, Kirche, Kuche", children, the >Church, and the kitchen. And lest I be mistaken for one of those MCPs (no, >not the OS, the kind that oinks and is often found in pigpens swilling Dixie >Beer while watching Tractor Pulls on TV), I did buy shoes for my wife. > Jack Peacock No, not in Dixie. In a Beerstube, rather. "Kinder, Kirche, Küche" was one of the more prominent slogans of the NSDAP, almost as as prominent as "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" . -- mrr ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 07:45:23 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 04 13:08:54 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.157 X-Trace: sv3-kFlyFDguhdacqIznNaKu8Az9fNOz4awc4dV54F9JWxolYT6UFSkjUI/sm+vV/z+U+v6J7e/DFGGLQgQ!IXeDZZ9W009CeENIZqy8iZrjtTE03djj9tz9KJ0IhbFzg8xJE58gvXHZtqUe/UV262c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191173 In article <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net>, "Jack Peacock" wrote: > wrote in message news:RJSdndGTIbI7LyzcRVn-oQ@rcn.net... >> Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. >> Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by >> myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies >> males. >> >Yes it does, and for good reason. It goes against basic hardwired >programming, at least for some of us. Males are >supposed to support females >so they'll take care of the kids full time. Invalidate >the premise and all >kinds of bad things happen...like changing diapers. :) Well, that can be fixed by keeping certain tools idle. > >There's an old German expression, one of the few I >remember from Herr Doktor >Professor Whatisname's class. "Kinder, Kirche, Kuche", children, the >Church, and the kitchen. And lest I be mistaken for >one of those MCPs (no, >not the OS, the kind that oinks and is often found >in pigpens swilling Dixie >Beer while watching Tractor Pulls on TV), ROTFLMAO. > ..I did buy shoes for my wife. That's so she can run out to the store and get another case of Dixie beer. I'm assuming you also bought her a shirt. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 09:50:47 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41AAA08F.10CB7B2C@yahoo.com> <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 02 Dec 04 15:14:53 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 64 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.59.181.192 X-Trace: sv3-irOO+icipqe+6YRKBBoFYaJMsMQWsORHpauX7LWJz+r2KuSCkmaw+6qqhrFiziXJFaHkXNyhWUlIyGw!4w4mx0okr7GVMxCiTlwfci4otYvMQeYu8urVXUPKbQ4CWSd1KKwyVF8EpbXK2LkFvA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:190981 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >On 2004-11-29, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>>That may be good for the US, but it will be a rude awakening. >> >> That seems to be the only thing that works with politicians these >> days. > >It seems most people need it too. > >Gotta have a disaster before they can recognize one coming. > >>>I have recently been avaluating a lot of different products in >>>the electronics sector; and frankly; the US products are inferior >>>and overpriced all over. German products are also as expensive, but >>>they are rock solid; and there is a segment that wants to pay for that. >> >> Exactly. I walk into a CompUSA to take a look at the gear. I >> can't believe the crap. Note that I seem to be able to identify >> stuff that's done well as opposed to bandaided by looking at it. >> For software I have to "see" it run but a directory of the >> distributions can also give me a hint. > >Very little of the stuff in CompUSA is made in the USA, so I don't see >how you can view this as a valid criticism of US made products. If I can't buy it off the shelf, it doesn't matter the garden-variety consumer that some gear somewhere gets made well. Until demand requires well-made gear, it's not going to get sold here. People are too used to replacing instead of repairing; we have too much cash on hand. > >>>A shame. But don't blame it on the President. He has mostly not >>>been in the loop, or has largely done the right things. Not that >>>I particularly favor the current one; the alternatives the other >>>side showed was not an improvement. >> >> The other side was the exact opposite. Note that the explanation >> for the loss is now "we didn't bash Bush at the convention". These >> people have absolutely no knowledge of the real world. This >> is abject stupidity. > >This is basically how I felt during Kerry's whole compaign. It was like >watching a campaign for a leader in some other country, maybe another >planet. I thought you were familiar with New England politics. This is the norm except most of our local politicians have political instinct. I guess when one runs for President, the staff is completely PHB and all political instinct is dismissed as crude. > >I never felt like Kerry had any idea what he was doing, and it didn't >help that he was self inconsistent so much. Sigh! I said often that Kerry didn't like to work. He wasn't doing anything, let alone have an idea about it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Anonymous Loser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54> <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net> <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:58:42 EST Message-ID: <1102100322.58VQKX9S5q8+LNOPThkkLA@teranews> X-Abuse-Report: http://www.usenetabuse.com X-Orginal-Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 13:47:51 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!hydra.nntpserver.com.POSTED!035ae7d8!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191094 On 3 Dec 2004 17:57:47 GMT, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >In article , wrote: > >>A lot of those country rubes understand this, even the Democrats >>who have not had their common sense organ surigcally removed. >>The lifestyle of western civilization is what those people >>were calling moral values. It's not PC to be against another >>religion so the exit polls were answered in acceptable terms. > >I'm deeply skeptical about this part, particularly if you're >saying that the people who responded "moral values" to that >possibly-poorly-worded exit poll question did so because they were >worried about this clash of civiliations thing you're talking about. >If that were so important to them, wouldn't they have responded >"terrorism" or "the war in Iraq" or something? (not directed at any specific person, but a rant was sparked in me, please don appropriate protective gear for the duration.) I'm so tired of hearing people talk about 'morals' and 'moral values' as if they are an absolute thing... You hear sometimes about one person thinking the other person needs some morals... who's morals do they need? Just because their moral code doesn't match your moral code, does that mean they don't have morals at all? I have been told on plenty of occasions, when someone finds out I'm a non-theologian, "You don't have morals?" ?!? Like, what kind of question is that supposed to be. As if, simply for not being of their religion, I _can't_ have morals? I treat my fellow people with a higher regard than I find most of these 'moral' people do, and yet I am the one viewed as lacking any morals... The 'moral values' label is meaningless... it is used merely to sound meaningful. If someone voted for Bush because he is against allowing people who don't live like him the right to join their households into a single family like he enjoys, or because he may thump the same bible you do, or because he may be pro-life like you might be (which is laughable considering he is pro-death-penalty too), then say those things... Don't just throw out the 'moral values' label because its meaningless and doesn't mean the same thing from person to person. (rant over, I had lots more but its not yet as coherent as what I already typed) :) :/ =8> -- Smoovious ###### From: Patrick Scheible Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 04 Dec 2004 00:36:12 -0800 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cache-Post-Path: yasure!unknown@cascadia.drizzle.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191116 Larry Elmore writes: > Patrick Scheible wrote: > > > > Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he > > would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. > > "Far left"??? You've got to be kidding, or are way misinformed. An > example of a far left domestic policy, please. For Nixon? Wage-price controls unprecedented in peacetime. Creation of the Environmental Protection Agency and appointing administrators who did their best to make it work. The Family Assistance Plan that would have given cash income to the poor (it didn't pass Congress). Kennedy: Use of federal marshalls to desegregate schools. Socking it to U.S. Steel. Civil rights. The Peace Corps. Medicare, federal aid for education. Eisenhower: Federal matching money for states offering health insurance for the elderly poor. Increases in social security and the minimum wage. Interstate highway system. Federal aid for science and foreign language education. -- Patrick ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 07:09:30 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 04 12:33:11 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.43 X-Trace: sv3-QINPK6KguKqupeH7vIDAEmz82cWT8h4vZQgnwLNvJnPoJXPY2Y4FIkcORTpBn0MBdESdm0xFTXQGx1X!VeR/j467lV5pd0gpIv3xPnDkTG1wV43KoqL6wWz2GhUbDFLLZz1alZJkHx9wnqSvWA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191125 In article , Patrick Scheible wrote: >Larry Elmore writes: > >> Patrick Scheible wrote: >> > >> > Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he >> > would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. >> >> "Far left"??? You've got to be kidding, or are way misinformed. An >> example of a far left domestic policy, please. > >For Nixon? Wage-price controls unprecedented in peacetime. Creation >of the Environmental Protection Agency and appointing administrators >who did their best to make it work. The Family Assistance Plan that >would have given cash income to the poor (it didn't pass Congress). > >Kennedy: Use of federal marshalls to desegregate schools. Socking it >to U.S. Steel. Civil rights. The Peace Corps. Medicare, federal aid >for education. > >Eisenhower: Federal matching money for states offering health >insurance for the elderly poor. Increases in social security and the >minimum wage. Interstate highway system. Before Eisenhower was a general he noticed that it was impossible to transport army gear from coast to coast. The national highway system was put into place so that tanks had a way to move around the country. The highway system had to do with national security, a.k.a. mess prevention. > ..Federal aid for science and >foreign language education. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: keith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:12:18 -0500 Organization: none Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net xT0ab5SmxE2Ca6d1CQsdxAGtyMBI7hDawQyB+/Slqu98H/PC/+ User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191146 On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 12:33:11 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > In article , > Patrick Scheible wrote: >>Larry Elmore writes: >> >>> Patrick Scheible wrote: >>> > >>> > Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he >>> > would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. >>> >>> "Far left"??? You've got to be kidding, or are way misinformed. An >>> example of a far left domestic policy, please. >> >>For Nixon? Wage-price controls unprecedented in peacetime. Creation >>of the Environmental Protection Agency and appointing administrators >>who did their best to make it work. The Family Assistance Plan that >>would have given cash income to the poor (it didn't pass Congress). >> >>Kennedy: Use of federal marshalls to desegregate schools. Socking it >>to U.S. Steel. Civil rights. The Peace Corps. Medicare, federal aid >>for education. >> >>Eisenhower: Federal matching money for states offering health >>insurance for the elderly poor. Increases in social security and the >>minimum wage. Interstate highway system. > > Before Eisenhower was a general he noticed that it was impossible > to transport army gear from coast to coast. The national highway > system was put into place so that tanks had a way to move around > the country. The highway system had to do with national security, > a.k.a. mess prevention. More improtantly he noticed how easy it was to mess up logistics in Europe. A hole in a rail line made for much more of a mess than a hole in a road which can be fixed in a matter of minutes. -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 19:07:54 -0600 From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sat, 04 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0600 Message-ID: References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.52.5.130 X-Trace: sv3-HMjtczZ7NzHrtySB1eGww7eoRaeCiNxUkvba91EGMU0bOjj4abLr5v1HUAMHVpYhhJBIkHh1b4GEFmy!EFOWz/HQCbUI8754mGm5R8Z2TYjFMfruiO5cISakIYMxrgOvbPpKR9fue8kUDx9iJBAVkw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191157 On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:12:18 -0500, keith wrote: >More improtantly he noticed how easy it was to mess up logistics in >Europe. A hole in a rail line made for much more of a mess than a hole in >a road which can be fixed in a matter of minutes. Rail lines can be repaired quickly, too. In 1919 Eisenhower was tasked with moving a truck convoy across the USA. Outside of cities paved roads were nearly nonexistent and in the west roads of any sort were nearly nonexistent. This experience very much influenced his highway policy. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 07:14:39 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 04 12:38:10 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.157 X-Trace: sv3-5r6ChxiihZWM4n573MA5rb17QDlFI/cLAaUbvhICdd+OD423e14OV3wG618CBC87rbYYcYMuEHdc6xU!DTSAJH2laXipSi2vYusomoSchv+kkpRytIwh/uiiCn6Rs8yHm5k7YjkigMD51ZGlGyA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191170 In article , William Hamblen wrote: >On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:12:18 -0500, keith wrote: > >>More improtantly he noticed how easy it was to mess up logistics in >>Europe. A hole in a rail line made for much more of a mess than a hole in >>a road which can be fixed in a matter of minutes. > >Rail lines can be repaired quickly, too. > >In 1919 Eisenhower was tasked with moving a truck convoy across the >USA. Outside of cities paved roads were nearly nonexistent and in the >west roads of any sort were nearly nonexistent. This experience very >much influenced his highway policy. > Which speaks volumes about politicians who have had more than lawyering experience in the field. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Anonymous Loser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:45:53 EST Message-ID: <1102301153.f14d7fcd8c61ad03407abbce0f9bcc08@teranews> X-Abuse-Report: http://www.usenetabuse.com X-Abuse-Notes: Abuse reports must be submited via the usenetabuse.com portal listed above. X-Abuse-Notes2: Reports sent via any other method will not be processed. X-Abuse-Notes3: Any other abuse reporting headers in this article are fraudulent. X-Orginal-Message-ID: Date: Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:45:17 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!hydra.nntpserver.com.POSTED!035ae7d8!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191202 On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 19:11:54 -0600, William Hamblen wrote: >On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 11:12:18 -0500, keith wrote: > >>More improtantly he noticed how easy it was to mess up logistics in >>Europe. A hole in a rail line made for much more of a mess than a hole in >>a road which can be fixed in a matter of minutes. > >Rail lines can be repaired quickly, too. Well, yes and no... Replacing damaged rail and ties, once you transport the new materials to the site, in itself, is a straightforward matter. The roadbed, however, is another matter entirely, especially in places where the ground isn't that stable. Railbeds are designed to accomodate more weight per square foot than roads are, and a badly maintained or repaired roadbed could mean the difference between a train arriving safely, or tipping over enroute. Pavement you can just fill the hole with earth found just a few feet away from the pavement for a short-term repair, certainly enough to make the difference of an hour's delay, or a day's delay. Take out a part of a rail line, and the train is stuck, or has to do a lot of backtracking and rerouting. Especially, in this day, where more rail line is abandoned and removed every year. We just don't have the number of alternate routes available that we once had. Take out the rail line in a small handful of strategic places, and you severely cripple the system. Take out part of a road or highway, turn the wheel and drive around to the other side. Its a no-brainer. -- Smoovious ###### Message-ID: <41B4A574.88DE6F8B@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answersthe phone) References: <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net> <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:32:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.140.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102357959 12.76.140.206 (Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:32:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:32:39 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191225 blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > ... snip ... > > My other point is that we didn't know in 2000 what Bush would do in > response to a major terrorist attack. If something equally unimagined > happens in the next four years, how will he react? We don't know. We have a pretty good idea. He will form some half-cocked scheme, revolving around enforcing a Pax Americana and ignoring all other world opinion, destroy any sympathy present in the world for us, and inflame some other population into wild-eyed resistance. In the process he will also drive us further into debt and exacerbate the destruction of the economy on which he has been working. No wealthy oil barons will be harmed in the process. The back-door draft will be further extended, thus making recruitment impossible for the volunteer armed forces, and ensuring that any successors will have to reinstate the actual draft. All of this will probably cause a net emigration from the US for the first time since 1492. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:03:44 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <620foc.bl8.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <1101851760.Dv1Q8mo3yusrMlebg4MCBQ@bubbanews> <07f2r0d3jjn1j30t0luh6im9fjea0qpbpv@4ax.com> From: Jon Boone Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 00:03:44 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:QH2I320LNqNMbZPtyGFwhtKa3zk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.84.208.206 X-Trace: sv3-CADzJd3uqzNgoXkSbb7khhyrYdhZKzW7QAEzNjwtvMMLogPNwS1qhY7iH5Xk4RnqXiLfnlF0p+m2HPR!aRK5KP/vs4V0FppSighoYFuvaO1C6qZ8NeE94/Cabwqon+qFDIT4HOQp5LP2obn7V/4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191236 Giles Todd writes: > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:08:16 -0500, Jon Boone > wrote: > >> Is it not, in a sense, slitting their own throats for overseas >> investors to *stop* buying the dollar? > > That has been the logic of Asian central banks so far, based largely > on the well-known reasons you put forward. One has to question how > sensible it is, though. It depends on how long the dollar remains a > currency worth making investments in. At the limit, once the paper > dollars are printed on is worth more than the face value of the > notes then even the most determinedly mercantilist central bank will > probably abandon this strategy. There are already hints that this > is beginning to happen even before the limit has been reached. I have no doubt that there is a point at which the dollar has devalued too much. :-) But, of course, before we get to the point where the dollar is totally worthless, we experience inflation, so the downward trend begins to reverse itself... I'd think that the large % of trade withe US is the main reason we don't see people abandoning us in droves. > There have been other reserve currencies in the past (gold, silver, > sterling, for example). They stopped being reserve currencies once > they were no longer useful for that purpose. There is no reason to > presume that the same thing could never happen to the dollar. I have no doubt that the dollar will cease to be the reserve currency. Based on nothing more than demographics, I'd expect it to be (eventually) the yuan. Of course, there's a bit more work for China to do before we get to that point. But, 2/3rds of the human population is a *huge* market. --jon ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <07f2r0d3jjn1j30t0luh6im9fjea0qpbpv@4ax.com> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <6us3pc.uer.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 42 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 10:00:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1102413604 193.217.159.243 (Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:00:04 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 11:00:04 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191244 In article , Jon Boone wrote: >Giles Todd writes: > >> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:08:16 -0500, Jon Boone >> wrote: >> > > I have no doubt that there is a point at which the dollar has > devalued too much. :-) But, of course, before we get to the point > where the dollar is totally worthless, we experience inflation, so > the downward trend begins to reverse itself... > > I'd think that the large % of trade withe US is the main reason we > don't see people abandoning us in droves. > >> There have been other reserve currencies in the past (gold, silver, >> sterling, for example). They stopped being reserve currencies once >> they were no longer useful for that purpose. There is no reason to >> presume that the same thing could never happen to the dollar. It is happening in small pieces right now. And the European central bank is wondering why the currency expands so much without a hint of inflation. The Euro also needs to build some institutions; they need to mirror the "eurodollar" market (YankeeEuro?). (these are dollars that are removed from the US authorities in terms of taxation etc.). > I have no doubt that the dollar will cease to be the reserve > currency. Based on nothing more than demographics, I'd expect it to > be (eventually) the yuan. Of course, there's a bit more work for > China to do before we get to that point. But, 2/3rds of the human > population is a *huge* market. China has a long way to go before the Yuan can be a primary reserve currency. They are still in the mindset of an economy of a developing country; and have a lot of authoritarianism plaguing the system. -- mrr ###### From: "S.C.Sprong" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answersthe phone) Date: 7 Dec 2004 16:00:46 GMT Lines: 27 Message-ID: <31m2deF3egsfgU1@individual.net> References: <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net> <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net> <41B4A574.88DE6F8B@yahoo.com> X-Trace: individual.net Vh1FmYdJa0nn9RHvOkrg2gyk2l03NcwXH9T4Sceb2Ia6g/s0o= X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.6.2-20030910 ("Pabbay") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/5.3-STABLE (i386)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191270 CBFalconer wrote: >blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >> My other point is that we didn't know in 2000 what Bush would do in >> response to a major terrorist attack. If something equally unimagined >> happens in the next four years, how will he react? We don't know. O, ye of little political-military knowledge! >We have a pretty good idea. He will form some half-cocked scheme, >revolving around enforcing a Pax Americana and ignoring all other >world opinion, destroy any sympathy present in the world for us, >and inflame some other population into wild-eyed resistance. I can assure you that we in Civilisation knew *exactly* what would happen after 9/11. In the eyes of the more informed general public, the United States had already most of their sympathy at, say, the times of Iran/Contra-gate. What interests us now is a) not to get bombed to oblivion and b) get rid of all the syncophant Euro-politicians who all seem to be hell-bent to create a simili-police-state under the guise of defense against inner and outer terrorism. We all know where this ends: in world-war. What is most distressing that quite a lot here seem to enjoy the prospect. scs ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 06:54:03 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net> <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 04 12:17:12 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 246 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.32 X-Trace: sv3-z4LUuCU9Y/g8C+txFiOiBlSnAjZAnSphwpkzq1rW7ZgextwjB1OUCSf6Yfofh7eCDQBD4+mXSbjx6r+!7eKBF9hUXyKOjsWq6e6HBY+MO4j33P4bpcKeeKY0qENDLUZbKDnY7MSAGXkog/NwHg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.n-ix.net!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!38.144.126.100.MISMATCH!feed5.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191252 In article <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>In article , wrote: >>>>In article <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>>>In article , wrote: >>>>>>In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com >>wrote: >>>>>>>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >>>>>>>Larry Elmore wrote: >>> >>>[ snip ] >>> >[ snip ] > >>>>>Well, this view explains why you support Mr. Bush even while making >>>>>comments about how "as a single female" you're bothered by some of >>>>>what he does. >>>> >>>>"Bothered" is not the word I would use. >>>> >>>>> ..(You might explain sometime how being single comes >>>>>into it. I get the "female" part, since I'm guessing all but the >>>>>most socially conservative women would find something about Bush >>>>>to not like, but -- single?) >>>> >>>>Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. >>>>Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by >>>>myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies >>>>males. Even those NOW females, who claim to be rabidly for equal >>>>rights no matter what sex, are leery of single females who don't >>>>need a sugar daddy to survive. You have noticed that the NOW >>>>types just transfer financial support from one male to a set >>>>of males a.k.a. "the government" for all support? >>> >>>Hm! (Is there an emoticon for surprise and "I wouldn't have >>>thought you were going to say *that* ...." ?) Well, now I'll >>>know better how to interpret "as a single female ...." >>> >>>And while I suspect that in "you have noticed ...." that was a >>>generic "you" -- no, I hadn't thought of it that way, and I think >>>it's at least potentially misleading to claim that NOW is leery >>>of "single females who don't need a sugar daddy". >> >>Sigh! You should become one and see how we're treated. > >"Become"? I'm female, not married, and not financially dependent >on anyone else. Close enough? I've been making my own financial >decisions since I graduated from college (>20 years ago) and not >noticing any particular male disapproval. Reread what I wrote; I was talking about female disapproval. Let me give you some examples. I was not one of them because I wouldn't go onto the management track. I was not one of them because I didn't go out on protests to show my "support". The fact that I was the first female to obtain a mortgage at a bank, make _all_ of my payments on time so that the bank was willing to take a risk lending money to the next female with no male support didn't count. People who spoke to me were females who didn't work and had the luxury of telling working females what they should do. I didn't hear this claptrap from women who worked in factories. > .. No idea why your >experience and mine would be so different in this respect .... Perhaps because you're younger than I am. > >>> .. If you want to >>>claim that most NOW members are in favor of a pretty big government >>>safety net, yeah, no argument, but I've never heard anything from >>>the organization that suggests that women are more entitled to >>>this support than men. >> >>Then you haven't really looked at how EEO is working (or rather, >>not working). You really should read the Equal Rights Amendment >>sometime (I voted against it because it had holes that implies >>that all animals were equal but pigs were more equal). > >This must be a state ERA? Nope. The US amendment proposal. > .. since you wouldn't have been voting on >the federal amendment, I'm 54 years old. I voted on the ERA. > .. and it doesn't seem to contain any such holes. >(Complete text as found by a quick Google search: "Equality of rights >under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States >or by any state on account of sex.") Sigh! Now read the rest of it; the devil is always in the details. I don't recall the problem anymore. As a guess, it's the Pandora's box that the amendment opened up. > >>> .. They do go on sometimes about the needs >>>of women with children, but I would have said this had to do more >>>with the "with children" part than with gender. >> >>That's just policians' hype to convince women that they're >>deprived. >> >>> .. (And they do >>>seem to have an annoying tendency to assume that all women are >>>or will be mothers. But that's another topic ....) >> >>No, it's not another topic. It's the same problem. > >How so? All spouts out of these peoples' mouths insist that it is the "right" of all females to work and have kids; if she has problems doing both at the same time, then the government has to help by giving her money. Have you noticed the absence of some crucial details in all of this? > >[ snip of some points I don't want to debate further -- lack >of time, lack of interest, etc. ] > >>>>>I'm not convinced that sticking with Bush makes it significantly >>>>>more likely that we won't lose this war, >>>> >>>>It was 100% likely if Kerry's ideas were enacted. "Talk to them". >>>>"Go back to fighting them in Afghanistan." "Let the UN do it." >>>>Not to mention that the way the Democrat convention was managed; >>>>they tried to do all kinds of things that would make it easy >>>>for an attack. >>> >>>Like what? >> >>I will assume that you are aware of some of the security problems >>involved in staging these conventions. Kerry wanted to "thank" >>everybody by having the Boston Pops put on a show that had the >>glitz equivalent of the Pops' Fourth of July extravagandza. >>The expectation was that at least a million people would come in >>to see the show. He wanted to do this in the middle of the >>convention. Despite all of the NO!!! screams, he continued >>to demand the show go on. He wouldn't even consider putting >>on the thing later...like in September. It had to be that week. > >That does sound a little misguided. A LITTLE MISGUIDED? This was the very first test of convention security after 9/11. > .. (But how would September have >been better?) It was the next convenient holiday (Labor Day). > >>>>> ...but -- okay, fair enough, >>>>>you do, and then of course you'd be willing to vote for the guy. >>>> >>>>I had to. There was no other choice. Not to mention that a >>>>lot of people voted for Kerry because that's what they thought >>>>Bin Laden wanted them to do. They interpreted his message >>>>that, if you vote Kerry into office, I won't make a mess in your >>>>backyard. >>> >>>Is this how you'd describe people who voted for Kerry because they >>>felt like Bush has been a great recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, and >>>so replacing him would reduce the chances of further attacks? >> >>I'm saying that some people voted for Kerry purely based on Bin >>Laden's message. >> >>>I find it a little inflammatory to describe such people as doing >>>something "because that's what they thought Bin Laden wanted >>>them to do" -- >> >>I am reporting what people said!!! When it was pointed out to >>these people that obeying Bin Laden wouldn't stop him from >>making messes, they became unhappy (being made a fool does that). > >I still find it really hard to imagine anyone in this country >explicitly saying that they were following Bin Laden's instructions. >Can you point me to references? newspaper articles, letters to >editors, Usenet postings, rants on personal Web pages, ....? I heard it on a radio talk show. > >[ snip of more stuff I don't want to debate further ] > >>>>>Now, maybe there *are* people who wouldn't describe the situation as >>>>>emphatically as you but are still worried in some subliminal way >>>>>that dumping Bush would make it more likely that the terrorists >>>>>would win in a big way, and these people voted for Bush but would >>>>>describe their reasons as "I like how he stands for something"? >>>> >>>>Never underestimate the ability to plan. No matter what Bush >>>>does, people can plan. Bush is predictable. Kerry was absolutely >>>>not predictable. Nobody had an idea what he would say today, >>>>let alone, tomorrow. If he had said, I'll raise income >>>>taxes 1%, people would be able to plan for that. Especially in >>>>a time of not knowing when the next mess will happen, people need >>>>to be able to know what the PHB will do. >>> >>>Who would have predicted, four years ago, that Bush would push >>>a decidedly interventionist foreign policy, with aspects that sure >>>strike me as "nation building"? Maybe he responded correctly to >>>unexpected events, but still -- predictable?? only if nothing >>>else unexpected happens. >>> >>>But as for "predictably bad" being preferable to "who knows?" -- >>>you know, I think this does sort of answer my original question. >>>I don't know that *I* would make this choice, but I guess I can >>>understand how someone else might. >> >>Then you're not being honest with yourself. You would not >>tolerate working for a company who randomly paid its workers. > >Well .... What if the choices are between a predictable subsistence >income and an income that fluctuates between subsistence and affluence? >That would be a better analogy, though granted I can't think of any >companies that pay their workers that way. I can think of quite a few. All food processing plants; anything completely tied up by unions; H&R Block; any retail around Christmas; teaching; any factory that makes widgets. > >My other point is that we didn't know in 2000 what Bush would do in >response to a major terrorist attack. But we knew how Gore would react. National security was an anti-goal. AAMOF, these people (Clinton and Gore)did everything they could to undermine national security. > .. If something equally unimagined >happens in the next four years, how will he react? We don't know. We know that he isn't going to pule about talking with the enemy to see what we should do to make the enemy happy. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <41B71973.918B4043@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answersthe phone) References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> <41B33002.736DEAEC@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 36 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.129.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102519604 12.76.129.42 (Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:44 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191320 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Larry Elmore wrote: >> CBFalconer wrote: >>> Morten Reistad wrote: >>> >>> ... snip ... >>> >>>> "Kinder, Kirche, Küche" was one of the more prominent slogans >>>> of the NSDAP, almost as as prominent as "Ein Volk, ein Reich, >>>> ein Führer" . >>> >>> Much like the present administration. At least there seem to be >>> some sensible people in the Republican party, as evidenced that >>> over half of the cabinet has quit in disgust even before the >>> completion of the stolen term. >> >> What crap. It's pretty normal turnover. > > Actually, this turnover was abnormal because of the few > that left during the 4-year term. That speaks volumes > about managerial effectiveness. That speaks to the fear factor engendered by the "with us or against us" foolishness. Once the cabinet members found a reasonable excuse for disassociation, they took it. Whitman had the courage to do it early on, and has never been heard from again. Maybe catchy tunes along the lines of "In der feuhrers face" will help restore sanity. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <41B71CA5.3AB70D3E@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answersthe phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.129.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102519608 12.76.129.42 (Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:48 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191322 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Larry Elmore wrote: > ... snip ... >> >> Yes, it was originally the National Defense Highway System. Nothing >> "leftist" about it, it was national defense that also had great >> peacetime economic benefits. > > When I was told this, I thought it was brialliant. The way > to keep it maintained was to put it in the general public's use. We seem to have violently different definitions of 'maintained'. The system is primarily an excuse for underfunding public transport and enriching road contractors. Compare the function stretches that have to be 'rebuilt' and the potholed stretches for which no funds can possibly be found. We just had an event where the Republicans removed funds for revising a dangerous road as punishment for assigning funds to rail transport. Rail transport does not enrich the oil barons. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041206 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> <41B33002.736DEAEC@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <41B33002.736DEAEC@yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s03 1102474150 24.1.185.48 (Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:49:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:49:10 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:49:10 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s03.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191290 CBFalconer wrote: > Morten Reistad wrote: > ... snip ... > >>"Kinder, Kirche, Küche" was one of the more prominent slogans of the >>NSDAP, almost as as prominent as "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" . > Much like the present administration. At least there seem to be > some sensible people in the Republican party, as evidenced that > over half of the cabinet has quit in disgust even before the > completion of the stolen term. What crap. It's pretty normal turnover. Carter had 8 cabinet resignations during his one term, Bush 41 had 7, while Clinton lost 10 of his original cabinet with some of their replacements resigning as well (he went through three secretaries of defense, treasury, and energy). --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:44:42 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> <41B33002.736DEAEC@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 04 13:07:39 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.107 X-Trace: sv3-69xf49Bya6a+0oVgzViixv14eWnWJPMZPGi+Jn3QPwIeFmXaECUMOodhxLbczXHNMEW49tNEU8gtvBa!1IkSJzF8hRy/5j8CAn0vSp33Spi033fmNvrc1f3H1YSXuiLPe16Q3ow4Ta462F5N7yM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191306 In article , Larry Elmore wrote: >CBFalconer wrote: >> Morten Reistad wrote: >> >> ... snip ... >> >>>"Kinder, Kirche, Küche" was one of the more prominent slogans of the >>>NSDAP, almost as as prominent as "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" . >> >> >> Much like the present administration. At least there seem to be >> some sensible people in the Republican party, as evidenced that >> over half of the cabinet has quit in disgust even before the >> completion of the stolen term. > >What crap. It's pretty normal turnover. Actually, this turnover was abnormal because of the few that left during the 4-year term. That speaks volumes about managerial effectiveness. > .. Carter had 8 cabinet >resignations during his one term, Bush 41 had 7, while Clinton lost 10 >of his original cabinet with some of their replacements resigning as >well (he went through three secretaries of defense, treasury, and energy). They went through a revolving door despite the limitation (at least with some of those treasury dudes). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:30:24 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net> <8sydnSyn47UM8i_cRVn-pw@mpowercom.net> <41B33002.736DEAEC@yahoo.com> X-Trace: individual.net tdvpIYTvNmMfQR5CL2IyrwDJt/kTFqQMiDnNUujXgnQofDZdN+ X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191304 In article , ljelmore_@_comcast_._net says... > CBFalconer wrote: > > Morten Reistad wrote: > > > > ... snip ... > > > >>"Kinder, Kirche, Küche" was one of the more prominent slogans of the > >>NSDAP, almost as as prominent as "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" . > > > > > > Much like the present administration. At least there seem to be > > some sensible people in the Republican party, as evidenced that > > over half of the cabinet has quit in disgust even before the > > completion of the stolen term. > > What crap. It's pretty normal turnover. Carter had 8 cabinet > resignations during his one term, Bush 41 had 7, while Clinton lost 10 > of his original cabinet with some of their replacements resigning as > well (he went through three secretaries of defense, treasury, and energy). The word in the beltway is that they were shown the door. As you say, there is nothing unusual here. -- Keith ###### Message-ID: <41B71A91.1DCAD964@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho References: <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.129.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102519605 12.76.129.42 (Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:26:45 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.glorb.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191321 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) wrote: > ... snip ... >> >> More importantly, the experience forged his thinking of military >> operations the strategy was more a matter of logistics than tactics. > > Warning: for some strange reason I always these two words > confused. Logistics: The act of spending time, federal money, etc. on the raising of money to conduct an election campaign. Tactics: The sneaky act of encouraging the Swift River innuendo campaign and denying all knowledge. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: blmblm@myrealbox.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 8 Dec 2004 14:33:53 GMT Organization: None Lines: 281 Message-ID: <31ohmgF3c3ha8U2@individual.net> References: <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net> X-Trace: individual.net 81QQQPG0pk7S0DVew4m2rgzlpqrjsPQFcxnjKGQwy9nbM933OM X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191315 In article , wrote: >In article <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>In article , wrote: >>>In article <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: >>>>In article , wrote: >>>>>In article <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com >wrote: >>>>>>In article , >wrote: >>>>>>>In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com >>>wrote: >>>>>>>>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, >>>>>>>>Larry Elmore wrote: >>>> >>>>[ snip ] >>>> >>[ snip ] >> >>>>>>Well, this view explains why you support Mr. Bush even while making >>>>>>comments about how "as a single female" you're bothered by some of >>>>>>what he does. >>>>> >>>>>"Bothered" is not the word I would use. >>>>> >>>>>> ..(You might explain sometime how being single comes >>>>>>into it. I get the "female" part, since I'm guessing all but the >>>>>>most socially conservative women would find something about Bush >>>>>>to not like, but -- single?) >>>>> >>>>>Single implies that I'm not being "taken care of" by a male. >>>>>Single implies that I'm able to manage my financial affairs by >>>>>myself, can think, and do make my own decisions. This petrifies >>>>>males. Even those NOW females, who claim to be rabidly for equal >>>>>rights no matter what sex, are leery of single females who don't >>>>>need a sugar daddy to survive. You have noticed that the NOW >>>>>types just transfer financial support from one male to a set >>>>>of males a.k.a. "the government" for all support? >>>> >>>>Hm! (Is there an emoticon for surprise and "I wouldn't have >>>>thought you were going to say *that* ...." ?) Well, now I'll >>>>know better how to interpret "as a single female ...." >>>> >>>>And while I suspect that in "you have noticed ...." that was a >>>>generic "you" -- no, I hadn't thought of it that way, and I think >>>>it's at least potentially misleading to claim that NOW is leery >>>>of "single females who don't need a sugar daddy". >>> >>>Sigh! You should become one and see how we're treated. >> >>"Become"? I'm female, not married, and not financially dependent >>on anyone else. Close enough? I've been making my own financial >>decisions since I graduated from college (>20 years ago) and not >>noticing any particular male disapproval. > >Reread what I wrote; I was talking about female disapproval. Well, you did also say "This petrifies males." I guess that phrase stuck in my head better than the later mention of NOW types. "My mistake" #1. Anyway, make that "not noticing any particular disapproval, male or female." >Let me give you some examples. I was not one of them because >I wouldn't go onto the management track. I was not one of them >because I didn't go out on protests to show my "support". The >fact that I was the first female to obtain a mortgage at a >bank, make _all_ of my payments on time so that the bank was >willing to take a risk lending money to the next female with >no male support didn't count. People who spoke to me were >females who didn't work and had the luxury of telling working >females what they should do. I didn't hear this claptrap from >women who worked in factories. Aha. Fair enough. That explains much. I can understand how that some of that would tick a person off. >> .. No idea why your >>experience and mine would be so different in this respect .... > >Perhaps because you're younger than I am. Probably -- though from your age below, it's a difference of only five years. Interesting! I work with someone who's about ten years older than I am, and she also reports experiences from her 20s that illustrate a kind of overt discrimination that -- well, by the time I graduated from college I guess people really couldn't get away with it any more? Either that or I've been fortunate, or oblivious. >>>> .. If you want to >>>>claim that most NOW members are in favor of a pretty big government >>>>safety net, yeah, no argument, but I've never heard anything from >>>>the organization that suggests that women are more entitled to >>>>this support than men. >>> >>>Then you haven't really looked at how EEO is working (or rather, >>>not working). You really should read the Equal Rights Amendment >>>sometime (I voted against it because it had holes that implies >>>that all animals were equal but pigs were more equal). >> >>This must be a state ERA? > >Nope. The US amendment proposal. > >> .. since you wouldn't have been voting on >>the federal amendment, > >I'm 54 years old. I voted on the ERA. Um .... Am I confused again? I was under the impression that the only ways for states to ratify amendments to the U.S. constitution involved either the state legislature or some sort of constitutional convention. >> .. and it doesn't seem to contain any such holes. >>(Complete text as found by a quick Google search: "Equality of rights >>under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States >>or by any state on account of sex.") > >Sigh! Now read the rest of it; the devil is always in the details. My mistake #2. Tried Google again and found the following: "Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex." "Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." "Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification." Is there more of it that I'm still not finding? >I don't recall the problem anymore. As a guess, it's the >Pandora's box that the amendment opened up. Maybe it's Section 2 you find objectionable? I do remember hearing at the time that the amendment would lead to a lot of probably-unintended consequences. No idea what those were or whether they would be universally viewed as negative. >>>> .. They do go on sometimes about the needs >>>>of women with children, but I would have said this had to do more >>>>with the "with children" part than with gender. >>> >>>That's just policians' hype to convince women that they're >>>deprived. >>> >>>> .. (And they do >>>>seem to have an annoying tendency to assume that all women are >>>>or will be mothers. But that's another topic ....) >>> >>>No, it's not another topic. It's the same problem. >> >>How so? > >All spouts out of these peoples' mouths insist that it is >the "right" of all females to work and have kids; if she >has problems doing both at the same time, then the government >has to help by giving her money. Have you noticed the absence >of some crucial details in all of this? No, and I'm not sure I really want to go there -- we seem to be the only ones pursuing this thread, so probably it's time to stop. [ more snippage ] >>>>>> ...but -- okay, fair enough, >>>>>>you do, and then of course you'd be willing to vote for the guy. >>>>> >>>>>I had to. There was no other choice. Not to mention that a >>>>>lot of people voted for Kerry because that's what they thought >>>>>Bin Laden wanted them to do. They interpreted his message >>>>>that, if you vote Kerry into office, I won't make a mess in your >>>>>backyard. >>>> >>>>Is this how you'd describe people who voted for Kerry because they >>>>felt like Bush has been a great recruiting tool for Al Qaeda, and >>>>so replacing him would reduce the chances of further attacks? >>> >>>I'm saying that some people voted for Kerry purely based on Bin >>>Laden's message. >>> >>>>I find it a little inflammatory to describe such people as doing >>>>something "because that's what they thought Bin Laden wanted >>>>them to do" -- >>> >>>I am reporting what people said!!! When it was pointed out to >>>these people that obeying Bin Laden wouldn't stop him from >>>making messes, they became unhappy (being made a fool does that). >> >>I still find it really hard to imagine anyone in this country >>explicitly saying that they were following Bin Laden's instructions. >>Can you point me to references? newspaper articles, letters to >>editors, Usenet postings, rants on personal Web pages, ....? > >I heard it on a radio talk show. So, no way for me to make my own assessment .... Oh well. Even leaving aside any questions of bias, there's always something lost in translation, IMO. But -- was this people saying, themselves, "I voted for Kerry because Bin Laden told me to"? or others reporting "my next-door neighbor said he voted for Kerry because Bin Laden told him to"? or what? >> >>[ snip of more stuff I don't want to debate further ] >> >>>>>>Now, maybe there *are* people who wouldn't describe the situation as >>>>>>emphatically as you but are still worried in some subliminal way >>>>>>that dumping Bush would make it more likely that the terrorists >>>>>>would win in a big way, and these people voted for Bush but would >>>>>>describe their reasons as "I like how he stands for something"? >>>>> >>>>>Never underestimate the ability to plan. No matter what Bush >>>>>does, people can plan. Bush is predictable. Kerry was absolutely >>>>>not predictable. Nobody had an idea what he would say today, >>>>>let alone, tomorrow. If he had said, I'll raise income >>>>>taxes 1%, people would be able to plan for that. Especially in >>>>>a time of not knowing when the next mess will happen, people need >>>>>to be able to know what the PHB will do. >>>> >>>>Who would have predicted, four years ago, that Bush would push >>>>a decidedly interventionist foreign policy, with aspects that sure >>>>strike me as "nation building"? Maybe he responded correctly to >>>>unexpected events, but still -- predictable?? only if nothing >>>>else unexpected happens. >>>> >>>>But as for "predictably bad" being preferable to "who knows?" -- >>>>you know, I think this does sort of answer my original question. >>>>I don't know that *I* would make this choice, but I guess I can >>>>understand how someone else might. >>> >>>Then you're not being honest with yourself. You would not >>>tolerate working for a company who randomly paid its workers. >> >>Well .... What if the choices are between a predictable subsistence >>income and an income that fluctuates between subsistence and affluence? >>That would be a better analogy, though granted I can't think of any >>companies that pay their workers that way. > >I can think of quite a few. All food processing plants; anything >completely tied up by unions; H&R Block; any retail around >Christmas; teaching; any factory that makes widgets. Some of these examples don't fit my definition of "randomly" paying workers -- e.g., my guess is that retail businesses demand a lot of overtime this time of year, which they pay for. This seems like predictable seasonal variation. What I assumed you meant was jobs where the pay is not related to anything you could reasonably make plans around -- seasonal variation in the number of hours worked, commissions based on how effectively you were able to sell, etc. >> >>My other point is that we didn't know in 2000 what Bush would do in >>response to a major terrorist attack. > >But we knew how Gore would react. National security was an >anti-goal. AAMOF, these people (Clinton and Gore)did >everything they could to undermine national security. Um, right. My feeling is that Bush might not have done any better without the strong motivator of 9/11. Wasn't he saying he didn't intend to involve the U.S. in "nation-building"? But I really think we should drop this part of the discussion -- "agree to disagree" maybe. >> .. If something equally unimagined >>happens in the next four years, how will he react? We don't know. > >We know that he isn't going to pule about talking with the >enemy to see what we should do to make the enemy happy. -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041206 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s54 1102471257 24.1.185.48 (Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:00:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:00:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:01:13 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s54.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191287 Patrick Scheible wrote: > Larry Elmore writes: > >>Patrick Scheible wrote: >> >>>Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he >>>would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. >> >>"Far left"??? You've got to be kidding, or are way misinformed. An >>example of a far left domestic policy, please. > For Nixon? Wage-price controls unprecedented in peacetime. Creation > of the Environmental Protection Agency and appointing administrators > who did their best to make it work. The Family Assistance Plan that > would have given cash income to the poor (it didn't pass Congress). > Kennedy: Use of federal marshalls to desegregate schools. Socking it > to U.S. Steel. Civil rights. The Peace Corps. Medicare, federal aid > for education. > Eisenhower: Federal matching money for states offering health > insurance for the elderly poor. Increases in social security and the > minimum wage. Interstate highway system. Federal aid for science and > foreign language education. Absolutely none of which (except possibly Nixon's wage/price controls) is considered "far left" today except by the fringe. Sheesh. --Larry ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041206 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Message-ID: <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s04 1102471493 24.1.185.48 (Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:04:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:04:53 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:05:03 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s04.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191288 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Patrick Scheible wrote: > >>Larry Elmore writes: >> >> >>>Patrick Scheible wrote: >>> >>>>Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he >>>>would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. >>> >>>"Far left"??? You've got to be kidding, or are way misinformed. An >>>example of a far left domestic policy, please. >> >>For Nixon? Wage-price controls unprecedented in peacetime. Creation >>of the Environmental Protection Agency and appointing administrators >>who did their best to make it work. The Family Assistance Plan that >>would have given cash income to the poor (it didn't pass Congress). >> >>Kennedy: Use of federal marshalls to desegregate schools. Socking it >>to U.S. Steel. Civil rights. The Peace Corps. Medicare, federal aid >>for education. >> >>Eisenhower: Federal matching money for states offering health >>insurance for the elderly poor. Increases in social security and the >> minimum wage. Interstate highway system. > Before Eisenhower was a general he noticed that it was impossible > to transport army gear from coast to coast. The national highway > system was put into place so that tanks had a way to move around > the country. The highway system had to do with national security, > a.k.a. mess prevention. Yes, it was originally the National Defense Highway System. Nothing "leftist" about it, it was national defense that also had great peacetime economic benefits. --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:49:10 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 04 13:12:07 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.107 X-Trace: sv3-ZRzDQIvdC1dGPbFuWq3AFxujkSsQ1Pmrelznf4MkWsiXXKCEVPBhnvXosyErfv7AHBXIVJMZPsA4PBw!iM+X7lPxnaw042VJgZ4ObluNccm6Ud0ydHN4b0sR+vJc41exRZwfTHRL2e0mTNRF++M= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191308 In article <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04>, Larry Elmore wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> In article , >> Patrick Scheible wrote: >> >>>Larry Elmore writes: >>> >>> >>>>Patrick Scheible wrote: >>>> >>>>>Nonsense. Yes, he was a cold warrior. But in domestic policy he >>>>>would be far left today, along with Goldwater and Nixon. >>>> >>>>"Far left"??? You've got to be kidding, or are way misinformed. An >>>>example of a far left domestic policy, please. >>> >>>For Nixon? Wage-price controls unprecedented in peacetime. Creation >>>of the Environmental Protection Agency and appointing administrators >>>who did their best to make it work. The Family Assistance Plan that >>>would have given cash income to the poor (it didn't pass Congress). >>> >>>Kennedy: Use of federal marshalls to desegregate schools. Socking it >>>to U.S. Steel. Civil rights. The Peace Corps. Medicare, federal aid >>>for education. >>> >>>Eisenhower: Federal matching money for states offering health >>>insurance for the elderly poor. Increases in social security and the >>>minimum wage. Interstate highway system. >> >> >> Before Eisenhower was a general he noticed that it was impossible >> to transport army gear from coast to coast. The national highway >> system was put into place so that tanks had a way to move around >> the country. The highway system had to do with national security, >> a.k.a. mess prevention. > >Yes, it was originally the National Defense Highway System. Nothing >"leftist" about it, it was national defense that also had great >peacetime economic benefits. When I was told this, I thought it was brialliant. The way to keep it maintained was to put it in the general public's use. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 08 Dec 2004 03:01:27 GMT References: <1102301153.f14d7fcd8c61ad03407abbce0f9bcc08@teranews> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m03) Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Message-ID: <20041207220127.23212.00000273@mb-m03.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191294 In article <1102301153.f14d7fcd8c61ad03407abbce0f9bcc08@teranews>, Anonymous Loser writes: >Replacing damaged rail and ties, once you transport the new materials to the >site, in itself, is a straightforward matter. The roadbed, however, is >another >matter entirely, especially in places where the ground isn't that stable. > >Railbeds are designed to accomodate more weight per square foot than roads >are, >and a badly maintained or repaired roadbed could mean the difference between >a >train arriving safely, or tipping over enroute. > >Pavement you can just fill the hole with earth found just a few feet away >from >the pavement for a short-term repair, certainly enough to make the difference >of >an hour's delay, or a day's delay. A railbed, however, requires a much smaller prism of material to carry an equivalent load compared to a roadbed: expending the resources to repair a defect in a railbed can provide a greater gross capacity than repairing a road. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ###### Lines: 15 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 08 Dec 2004 03:01:28 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m03) Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Message-ID: <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.icl.net!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191293 In article , William Hamblen writes: >In 1919 Eisenhower was tasked with moving a truck convoy across the >USA. Outside of cities paved roads were nearly nonexistent and in the >west roads of any sort were nearly nonexistent. This experience very >much influenced his highway policy. More importantly, the experience forged his thinking of military operations the strategy was more a matter of logistics than tactics. The code name "Overlord" for the Normandy invasion reflects that he thought more of might than pluck in taking on the task. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:47:25 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 04 13:10:22 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.107 X-Trace: sv3-GHfEdjhDJ2PYiUaLtpnvkQoSdOySBigIpEAXy7EPVjjgefGSujwNaz3HrtqyMQDzawdZxLMzitHrn6h!49T+MjL1m37ZHRTnmWBpdCMubbGl0tKbowyh0kaNeNzrdywUIMBYOadjL8a3oAugUF0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!hermod.ttsg.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191307 In article <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com>, bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) wrote: >In article , William Hamblen > writes: > >>In 1919 Eisenhower was tasked with moving a truck convoy across the >>USA. Outside of cities paved roads were nearly nonexistent and in the >>west roads of any sort were nearly nonexistent. This experience very >>much influenced his highway policy. > >More importantly, the experience forged his thinking of military operations the >strategy was more a matter of logistics than tactics. Warning: for some strange reason I always these two words confused. > ..The code name "Overlord" >for the Normandy invasion reflects that he thought more of might than pluck in >taking on the task. Would you be able to explain a tad more? I don't know enough about this stuff to ask an intelligent question. Perhaps an example would help me. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Date: 08 Dec 04 09:27:36 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <915.838T1843T5675244@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-176.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191326 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: > In article , > Giles Todd wrote: > >> On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:05:03 GMT, Larry Elmore >> wrote: >> >>> Yes, it was originally the National Defense Highway System. Nothing >>> "leftist" about it, it was national defense that also had great >>> peacetime economic benefits. >> >> Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. >> No road movies, for one. > > But that's what the stagecoaches were for! :-) Bob Hope and Bing Crosby in a stagecoach? Nah, can't see it. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 06:25:52 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:Pva42efSUD7Skq5CY+UiRJh3NQs= References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!63.223.20.72!sjc1.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191300 On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:05:03 GMT, Larry Elmore wrote: > Yes, it was originally the National Defense Highway System. Nothing > "leftist" about it, it was national defense that also had great > peacetime economic benefits. Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. No road movies, for one. Giles. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 07:49:50 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 04 13:12:47 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.107 X-Trace: sv3-9aEMFRDvx9gLZ/dxBKBiXGQnYyp4tepCYoKgERAV8Wn62TBivZwylejyv99CK6Ul5LXZT/QXEJrcKhI!Y/IpqU9074cxjzQurFhtnjst583YawfV+43G/ya8GJoHTTYTOzV1/23QXGh57o43fGk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191309 In article , Giles Todd wrote: >On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:05:03 GMT, Larry Elmore > wrote: > >> Yes, it was originally the National Defense Highway System. Nothing >> "leftist" about it, it was national defense that also had great >> peacetime economic benefits. > >Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. >No road movies, for one. But that's what the stagecoaches were for! :-) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:45:40 -0600 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:45:40 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.18.133.20 X-Trace: sv3-NA71TSrSCh96uPIjFXojbmDcuumn3e2fug+7AsH361OxGn/teAsnhmrdurFTa5qTxaMcZp3fs7vasiU!etNIp6JSR8CWhaweaxC2zl2+UeOFAKYXX0921QOMdzWl37MLBn87+CvIB7E5Adea4z1aXMUlRKJu!CvQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191324 "Giles Todd" wrote in message news:b04dr0db6kqhoabc66lflsf8fq2g4ajren@4ax.com... > Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. > No road movies, for one. > Nonsense, we would still get our kicks on Route 66. After all, that TV show that made the Corvette famous wasn't called "Interstate 66". Jack Peacock ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:11:47 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho References: <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com> From: Jon Boone Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:11:47 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:tvRcMDWR9kRXcMMXEdHs9mtXRq0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.84.208.206 X-Trace: sv3-Qb2/0qVu2/AIiL3yS402Y2XLrRPbfBFdJpsSbmIDrGcLwrJ5dVBKbgnwZ/aUfRfCJeMapyachcXcxiy!wt7fgRLOD2gL2VbtzFemOV299Dzmo5d3iYY9YM98QvKQwwjdMVOduCrKeFWxjeCAK6k= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191330 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com>, > bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) wrote: >>In article , William Hamblen >> writes: >> >>>In 1919 Eisenhower was tasked with moving a truck convoy across the >>>USA. Outside of cities paved roads were nearly nonexistent and in the >>>west roads of any sort were nearly nonexistent. This experience very >>>much influenced his highway policy. >> >>More importantly, the experience forged his thinking of military > operations the >>strategy was more a matter of logistics than tactics. > > Warning: for some strange reason I always these two words > confused. > >> ..The code name "Overlord" >>for the Normandy invasion reflects that he thought more of might than > pluck in >>taking on the task. > > Would you be able to explain a tad more? I don't know enough > about this stuff to ask an intelligent question. Perhaps an > example would help me. Logistics is determining what materials are needed, ordering them, having them delivered at the right place at the right time, tracking their use so that you can re-order. Lather, rinse, repeat. Tactics is determining whether you'll wait until you see the whites of their eyes before shooting because you have sucky logistics. --jon ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 14:16:18 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> From: Jon Boone Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:16:18 -0500 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (darwin) Cancel-Lock: sha1:wNo3AaL6tDTbB30g6fAbi/BPASI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.84.208.206 X-Trace: sv3-ae6k/DdE7vehSz6wuDKk02+GXDkV0cUJTVpeOvkl6WaKv6bnd+WxdRv5/aQ8blh0lyQ7dS8WXhGbakQ!tT7EHdYPTJo6Uk8dkKm65YbZWqUmRdYW5vUhjmUzPhNqO6eQGmPxRl/l1/5s2plg+8Q= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191331 stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: > On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:45:40 -0800, Jack Peacock wrote: >>"Giles Todd" wrote in message >>news:b04dr0db6kqhoabc66lflsf8fq2g4ajren@4ax.com... >>> Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. >>> No road movies, for one. >>> >>Nonsense, we would still get our kicks on Route 66. After all, that TV show >>that made the Corvette famous wasn't called "Interstate 66". > > A friend of mine who was over there a while back tells me they removed all > the "Route 66" shield signs - whose bright idea was that? Someone with no > soul, obviously! There are some sections of Rt 66 that were re-routed. :-) If you go to the old route for 66, there are a lot of those nostalgic signs. --jon ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 15:23:49 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> X-Trace: individual.net WwumbrsZU8Z4Fn32cNfQhQ0tH3i1NWImdZzGW9Vu1LIL4m2fT1 X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191332 In article , ipmonger@delamancha.org says... > stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: > > > On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:45:40 -0800, Jack Peacock wrote: > >>"Giles Todd" wrote in message > >>news:b04dr0db6kqhoabc66lflsf8fq2g4ajren@4ax.com... > >>> Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. > >>> No road movies, for one. > >>> > >>Nonsense, we would still get our kicks on Route 66. After all, that TV show > >>that made the Corvette famous wasn't called "Interstate 66". > > > > A friend of mine who was over there a while back tells me they removed all > > the "Route 66" shield signs - whose bright idea was that? Someone with no > > soul, obviously! > > There are some sections of Rt 66 that were re-routed. :-) > > If you go to the old route for 66, there are a lot of those > nostalgic signs. I'm sure there are more than a few hanging in bars, family rooms, and frat houses too. ;-) -- Keith ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 08 Dec 2004 19:02:33 GMT Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-191-175.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1102532553 news-text.dial.pipex.com 16589 62.241.191.175:29877 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191328 On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:45:40 -0800, Jack Peacock wrote: >"Giles Todd" wrote in message >news:b04dr0db6kqhoabc66lflsf8fq2g4ajren@4ax.com... >> Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. >> No road movies, for one. >> >Nonsense, we would still get our kicks on Route 66. After all, that TV show >that made the Corvette famous wasn't called "Interstate 66". A friend of mine who was over there a while back tells me they removed all the "Route 66" shield signs - whose bright idea was that? Someone with no soul, obviously! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 06:50:00 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 04 12:12:34 GMT Message-ID: <4_2dnbAKFeTkBiTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.29 X-Trace: sv3-YLH5OFwzwS5VkSbJQCO6z3+9+rpGSO0/KYWxMhUW+DGu/lcfVMtINOpj3TwUyTLGyvG+tXO5A3n2QXP!aLeW/wVYtvOyeYPbOq0YWciUl7hhOmaSckWlcfzJAUhJujkB/ELoxytvqEjZ370v1g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191402 In article , Jon Boone wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article <20041207220128.23212.00000274@mb-m03.aol.com>, >> bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) wrote: >>>In article , William Hamblen >>> writes: >>> >>>>In 1919 Eisenhower was tasked with moving a truck convoy across the >>>>USA. Outside of cities paved roads were nearly nonexistent and in the >>>>west roads of any sort were nearly nonexistent. This experience very >>>>much influenced his highway policy. >>> >>>More importantly, the experience forged his thinking of military >> operations the >>>strategy was more a matter of logistics than tactics. >> >> Warning: for some strange reason I always these two words >> confused. >> >>> ..The code name "Overlord" >>>for the Normandy invasion reflects that he thought more of might than >> pluck in >>>taking on the task. >> >> Would you be able to explain a tad more? I don't know enough >> about this stuff to ask an intelligent question. Perhaps an >> example would help me. > > Logistics is determining what materials are needed, ordering them, > having them delivered at the right place at the right time, tracking > their use so that you can re-order. Lather, rinse, repeat. > > Tactics is determining whether you'll wait until you see the > whites of their eyes before shooting because you have sucky > logistics. Thanks. Not only do I get the two words mixed up, I get the wrong two words mixed up. I can never recognize if a description is _strategy_ or tactic. [red-faced emoticon excusing itself to powder its face to white] /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 05:50:01 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the pho Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> <915.838T1843T5675244@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 04 11:12:48 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.245 X-Trace: sv3-gpMAWh+9Jb6bWxH/VVMAJkhBs5vKlGeKeQ+8dpevOVVvPnV2ybIVePgtMgc6HMSAV3G0KiXgjX+fK/a!NS9Kf+8Qmw6RukR5RnSnpCMu1jO+6v/kFR84t5nr1eOz7HwKI6HYKzn99wn1wlj6fns= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191350 In article <915.838T1843T5675244@kltpzyxm.invalid>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com >(jmfbahciv) writes: > >> In article , >> Giles Todd wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:05:03 GMT, Larry Elmore >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, it was originally the National Defense Highway System. Nothing >>>> "leftist" about it, it was national defense that also had great >>>> peacetime economic benefits. >>> >>> Indeed. Just think what would have happened had it not been there. >>> No road movies, for one. >> >> But that's what the stagecoaches were for! :-) > >Bob Hope and Bing Crosby in a stagecoach? Nah, can't see it. > Oh, those movies! I was thinking of those weird movies where Mel Gibson (I think) got started. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Stimpy" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:20:52 -0000 Lines: 9 Message-ID: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <1102301153.f14d7fcd8c61ad03407abbce0f9bcc08@teranews> X-Trace: individual.net Y/gN97iDag1Me/2OLvHSMgEefkpwoagoujWuRktKPF7q09BKYF X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191335 Anonymous Loser wrote: > Especially, in this day, where > more rail line is abandoned and removed every year. We just don't > have the number of alternate routes available that we once had. I presume when you say "we", you're talking about the US... The situation is not necessarily the same elsewhere ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:25:07 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <7i6fr0t16e3a635f5n7fb3184gooas8dik@4ax.com> Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:Z0Ce5MhO9CJZV9cNwLYwZ6N4HO4= References: <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net> <31ohmgF3c3ha8U2@individual.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191339 On 8 Dec 2004 14:33:53 GMT, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > In article , wrote: > >In article <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > >>In article , wrote: > >>>In article <31du19F39j5mnU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote: > >>>>In article , wrote: > >>>>>In article <31bnorF38cljpU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com > >wrote: > >>>>>>In article , > >wrote: > >>>>>>>In article <3162moF386tuoU1@individual.net>, blmblm@myrealbox.com > >>>wrote: > >>>>>>>>In article <_rard.423956$wV.265378@attbi_s54>, > >>>>>>>>Larry Elmore wrote: At which point, I gave up reading. Not because I agreed or disagreed with anything that anyone had said. Just because it was too much like hard work, wading through the increasing levels of quotation and repetition. Thank goodness for kill files. Giles. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:28:23 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:AiUPhML4Rt6HtUTwQiUiZ+fbCuU= References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191340 On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 07:45:40 -0800, "Jack Peacock" wrote: > Nonsense, we would still get our kicks on Route 66. After all, that TV show > that made the Corvette famous wasn't called "Interstate 66". Damn. Giles. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <87653ptcym.fld@barrow.com> <9jttd.727499$8_6.351687@attbi_s04> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 09 Dec 2004 06:07:32 GMT Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-191-106.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1102572452 news-text.dial.pipex.com 16589 62.241.191.106:8664 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191345 On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 15:16:18 -0500, Jon Boone wrote: >stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: >> A friend of mine who was over there a while back tells me they removed all >> the "Route 66" shield signs - whose bright idea was that? Someone with no >> soul, obviously! > > There are some sections of Rt 66 that were re-routed. :-) > > If you go to the old route for 66, there are a lot of those > nostalgic signs. I'll tell my friend to look harder when he goes back! He is, like me, a guitar player and he *really* wanted to have his photo taken, with his guitar, in front of one of the signs. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 05:47:56 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31j7faF3aktj9U1@individual.net> <31ohmgF3c3ha8U2@individual.net> <7i6fr0t16e3a635f5n7fb3184gooas8dik@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 04 11:10:43 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.245 X-Trace: sv3-jYvTbNKNcZtW4Ai/kO4Wx1iQc7zLqYW4EMiOs9KvXQ0rSM/+fV73v7jAfFfCOlNrGO5qS+4LAhRFigF!YRTG56HVE0raCodEkBiVWjPzfbwvHpcrhkLBpCvdQKXKirgU6s88h8Eh+GyvMCmmpZQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191349 In article <7i6fr0t16e3a635f5n7fb3184gooas8dik@4ax.com>, Giles Todd wrote: >At which point, I gave up reading. Not because I agreed or disagreed >with anything that anyone had said. Just because it was too much like >hard work, wading through the increasing levels of quotation and >repetition. My apologies. I've always had problems deciding how much to snip. Thanks for the kick in keester. :-) > >Thank goodness for kill files. Oh, well...I'll still ship the sorry over the air. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Anonymous Loser Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <1102301153.f14d7fcd8c61ad03407abbce0f9bcc08@teranews> <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 trialware MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 18:19:37 EST Message-ID: <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> X-Abuse-Report: http://www.usenetabuse.com X-Abuse-Notes: Abuse reports must be submited via the usenetabuse.com portal listed above. X-Abuse-Notes2: Reports sent via any other method will not be processed. X-Abuse-Notes3: Any other abuse reporting headers in this article are fraudulent. X-Orginal-Message-ID: Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 18:16:30 -0500 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!sam.nntpserver.com.POSTED!035ae7d8!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191368 On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:20:52 -0000, "Stimpy" wrote: >Anonymous Loser wrote: >> Especially, in this day, where >> more rail line is abandoned and removed every year. We just don't >> have the number of alternate routes available that we once had. > >I presume when you say "we", you're talking about the US... The situation >is not necessarily the same elsewhere Yes, the US... which dissapoints me... the Japanese have a world-class commuter rail system that I don't think has an equal anywhere... Europe's commuter rail system I believe, you can go by rail just about anywhere. I may be mistaken about that but it isn't that far from the truth, considering my only frame of reference is the piss-poor excuse of a rail system we have here... Just imagine what kind of system we'd have today if the gov't would have properly funded Amtrak right from the start. You just can't cut line after line because it isn't profitable. You have to take the whole system as a whole. With each feeder line you cut, you little by little choke the life out of those lines that do make money. Our local bus service found that out the hard way over a decade ago. I got more rant about our dwindling rail system but maybe another time... -- Smoovious ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 07:17:16 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1102301153.f14d7fcd8c61ad03407abbce0f9bcc08@teranews> <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 04 12:39:50 GMT Message-ID: <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.29 X-Trace: sv3-NJsX6OVKkVwQxHyuGGbXIJSNwosvxtKwgL+3BSfBso/uyRFUHRQbMI7q0q+T5mICUxMgW83hWmeMMl+!Cp9mwM0/US/pWUYdsCXnWN2QG1dtQfgVG1Qmpz5sg17dAHmpSrAmJl2lgOnjx0dAcg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191405 In article <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews>, Anonymous Loser wrote: >On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:20:52 -0000, "Stimpy" wrote: > >>Anonymous Loser wrote: >>> Especially, in this day, where >>> more rail line is abandoned and removed every year. We just don't >>> have the number of alternate routes available that we once had. >> >>I presume when you say "we", you're talking about the US... The situation >>is not necessarily the same elsewhere > >Yes, the US... which dissapoints me... the Japanese have a world-class commuter >rail system that I don't think has an equal anywhere... Japan is small. > ...Europe's commuter rail >system I believe, you can go by rail just about anywhere. Europe is also "small" and wall-to-wall urban centers. > ...I may be mistaken >about that but it isn't that far from the truth, considering my only frame of >reference is the piss-poor excuse of a rail system we have here... Once an area becomes an urban, rail service will be introduced. > >Just imagine what kind of system we'd have today if the gov't would have >properly funded Amtrak right from the start. A lot more rich politicians and less rail service. > >You just can't cut line after line because it isn't profitable. You have to take >the whole system as a whole. With each feeder line you cut, you little by little >choke the life out of those lines that do make money. > >Our local bus service found that out the hard way over a decade ago. > >I got more rant about our dwindling rail system but maybe another time... But people don't want to pay for their usage of a transportation service; they all want it for "free". You can't maintain a fruit fly without some money to buy bananas. /BAH ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> Organization: Me, Myself and I X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 78 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 22:00:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1102716003 193.217.159.243 (Fri, 10 Dec 2004 23:00:03 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 23:00:03 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uninett.no!news.powertech.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191430 In article <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net>, wrote: >In article <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews>, > Anonymous Loser wrote: >>On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 23:20:52 -0000, "Stimpy" >wrote: >> >>>Anonymous Loser wrote: >>>> Especially, in this day, where >>>> more rail line is abandoned and removed every year. We just don't >>>> have the number of alternate routes available that we once had. >>> >>>I presume when you say "we", you're talking about the US... The >situation >>>is not necessarily the same elsewhere >> >>Yes, the US... which dissapoints me... the Japanese have a world-class >commuter >>rail system that I don't think has an equal anywhere... > >Japan is small. > >> ...Europe's commuter rail >>system I believe, you can go by rail just about anywhere. > >Europe is also "small" and wall-to-wall urban centers. Europe is not "small" in this respect; if you don't also call the US "small". OK, There is a core of urban centers within 2 hrs train distance, but so is there in the US. According to allm-geodata.com the US+Canada has 17232 airports and 35759 railroad stations, while Germany has 645/8764, Italy 215/4765, Russia 1445/13745, France 648/6516, and the UK 49/5880. Seems the 'mericans go flying a lot. > >> ...I may be mistaken >>about that but it isn't that far from the truth, considering my only frame >of >>reference is the piss-poor excuse of a rail system we have here... > >Once an area becomes an urban, rail service will be introduced. The US "red" states has made the state change between small-town and suburbia without going urban in between to an art form. Not that this is bad. >>Just imagine what kind of system we'd have today if the gov't would have >>properly funded Amtrak right from the start. > >A lot more rich politicians and less rail service. I keep being sceptical about Amtrak. Whenever the US decides to subsidise something you choose a heavy-handed model that lends itself directly to corrupt practices. I guess it has something to do with the scale. >>You just can't cut line after line because it isn't profitable. You have >to take >>the whole system as a whole. With each feeder line you cut, you little by >little >>choke the life out of those lines that do make money. >> >>Our local bus service found that out the hard way over a decade ago. >> >>I got more rant about our dwindling rail system but maybe another time... > >But people don't want to pay for their usage of a transportation >service; they all want it for "free". You can't maintain a fruit >fly without some money to buy bananas. Of course everyone will take a good thing if offered for free. -- mrr ###### Message-ID: <41BABD3A.3A5A5E6C@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answersthe phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <41BA7499.AB26C17E@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:02:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.139.231 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102759365 12.76.139.231 (Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:02:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:02:45 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191437 Larry Elmore wrote: > CBFalconer wrote: > ... snip ... >> >> On the contrary, I would assume it to be a profitable venture. The >> two ends are concentrated, so there is little need for ancilliary >> service. There is nothing in between to slow down traffic, or >> cause problems with right-of-way, so high speed service is very >> feasable. A train should be considerably faster than driving, and >> cheaper if the cost of roadway and pollution is considered. > > A train "considerably faster" than interstates does _not_ have a > cheap roadbed, and all traffic _stops_ while it's being worked on. Believe it or not, the RR people have worked out ways to handle such maintenance with minimal effect. The roadbed doesn't have to be all that expensive, and could probably operate profitably with present day (i.e. 1940s) equipment. A conventional train can easily maintain 90 to 100 mph in the absence of stops. Automobiles require much more fuel per passenger mile to even approach that. The great advantage to the user is that s/he doesn't have to do anything. Just try to catch 40 winks while driving. Writing, reading, or even telephoning (for rational beings) is out also. Even a high speed system, such as the TGV, or even the Acela (which is designed to use more or less unimproved roadbeds) are much cheaper per roadbed mile than any 4 lane limited access highway. Your area (Reno-Las Vegas) sounds especially conducive to high speed roadbed. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> From: Andreas Eder Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:36:15 +0100 Message-ID: Organization: eder User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.4 (Security Through Obscurity, linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ll5bo/hpjaKC6RMT9KmlxFKPPsw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2004 11:45:02 MET NNTP-Posting-Host: 550660f2.newsread2.arcor-online.net X-Trace: DXC=Vh6?B4MbCa^ghFd\k@b23TQ5U85hF6f;TjW\KbG]kaMXLL]:kiR8f=_Aan`o3ObHhY<>n50oJJkLRI;A3e^G_>8Y X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor.de Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor.de!news.arcor.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191440 "Jack Peacock" writes: > In parts of the western US towns are 500+ km apart. A rail line would take > all day to get anywhere. And it's not like there's anything but empty > desert between those towns, no intermediate stops. Between Reno and Las > Vegas, the two urban centers in Nevada, it's about 600km. Fine, so with a quite conventional train that is about an 2.5 hours voyage. If take into account the time spent at the airport (and consider that airports usually aren't in the middle of cities while train stations are) you cannot go mucg faste by plane. It is succesful e.g. in France. Look at their TGV wich links Paris and and Marseille. It is about the same distance but has 4 stops in between. And tzakes about 4 hours. If you want to still go faster, you should have a look at the transrapid, tgough that needs a completely different rail system, but allows speeds of about 450 km/h. Andreas -- Wherever I lay my .emacs, there's my $HOME. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answersthe pho Date: 11 Dec 04 17:28:32 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1145.841T1615T10484912@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <41BA7499.AB26C17E@yahoo.com> <41BABD3A.3A5A5E6C@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-154.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news2 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191476 In article , kkt@drizzle.com (Patrick Scheible) writes: > The FRA requires that trains operating at over 79 mph have expensive > signalling. A few stretches of US railroad have it (NE corridor and > a few other places), but most don't. That's what I love about this group - a random posting can solve a decades-old mystery. When I was about 15 I got a ride in the locomotive of a train running from Blaine, Washington to Mount Vernon. I noticed a placard stating, "Maximum speed of this engine 79 MPH." When I asked the engineer about this, he placed a finger to his lips (we were going somewhat faster than that at the time). It always puzzled me that such an odd (indeed prime) number would be chosen as a maximum speed, and because of that it's been stuck in my mind ever since. But upon reading your post it all makes sense; apparently politics was involved. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Message-ID: <41BBE224.1D3ADFCA@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:25:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.133.81 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102832753 12.76.133.81 (Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:25:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:25:53 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.glorb.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191477 Morten Reistad wrote: > ... snip ... > > Remember the Rainbow Warrior? That was how the french got Greenpeace > out of their hair. I see you are recommending terrorism and murder. Followed by breaking the pledges which persuaded New Zealand to repatriate the convicted murderers to French prisons. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: keith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:59:28 -0500 Organization: none Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <41BA7499.AB26C17E@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net cOrIhkhKyDUwX9YBYjS/nwSkgtEZ35Ko/siF2ITJBxmT8OX8BP User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191475 On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 04:22:41 +0000, CBFalconer wrote: > Jack Peacock wrote: >> "Morten Reistad" wrote in message >> >>> Seems the 'mericans go flying a lot. >>> >> In parts of the western US towns are 500+ km apart. A rail line >> would take all day to get anywhere. And it's not like there's >> anything but empty desert between those towns, no intermediate >> stops. Between Reno and Las Vegas, the two urban centers in >> Nevada, it's about 600km. There's three small towns (a Navy >> base, an Army depot, and a nearly deserted mining town), plus >> a couple of gas stations, a few bordellos, and a few more mines >> in between. Not very profitable for a mass transit rail line. > > On the contrary, I would assume it to be a profitable venture. The > two ends are concentrated, so there is little need for ancilliary > service. There is nothing in between to slow down traffic, or > cause problems with right-of-way, so high speed service is very > feasable. A train should be considerably faster than driving, and > cheaper if the cost of roadway and pollution is considered. > Definitely cheaper than flying, and probably only slightly slower > when considering such foolishness as check-in time. Bar and diner > cars have been known to attract riders. > > Launching may well need seed money, which is a good place for > government to appear. > > Why is there a Navy base in the desert? Gee CB, it also pissed off a close friend when he found out that the "home" of the US Navy was in *UPSTATE* New York (White Hall, on the Vermont border, in fact). Go figure the history of the world. ;-) -- Keith ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41BBE224.1D3ADFCA@yahoo.com> From: Pascal Bourguignon Date: 12 Dec 2004 16:52:15 +0100 Message-ID: <87r7lvpl8w.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 18 Organization: [posted via Easynet Spain] NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.93.174.79 X-Trace: DXC=PF5SXWPn^o=A7a1Fg@bl32EY<>`XO4V7=>Uh writes: > Morten Reistad wrote: > > > ... snip ... > > > > Remember the Rainbow Warrior? That was how the french got Greenpeace > > out of their hair. > > I see you are recommending terrorism and murder. Followed by > breaking the pledges which persuaded New Zealand to repatriate the > convicted murderers to French prisons. Ah but this is Greenpeace that belongs to the axis of evil there. -- __Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ The world will now reboot; don't bother saving your artefacts. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 38 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1102809602 193.217.159.243 (Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:00:02 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!proxad.net!195.70.164.134.MISMATCH!news.tdcnorge.no!news.banetele.no!news.powertech.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191467 In article , Jack Peacock wrote: >"Patrick Scheible" wrote in message >news:tqm1xdwy7ct.fsf@drizzle.com... >> Bernd Felsche writes: >>> IIRC, TGV runs on nuclear power for the most part. >> >> Only in the sense that they run on the electric grid, which in France >> is something like 65% from nuclear power. >> >I can see the Greenpeace and Friends of Earth banners now....NUCLEAR DEATH >TRAINS: KEEP ATOMIC BOMBS OUT OF YOUR BACKYARD. Or, an opposite version for the Dr Strangelove fans among us; "Trains zpeeding like a nuklear bullet". >There isn't enough generating capacity in the US to switch to electric >trains. There isn't enough for electric cars either, a fact overlooked by >all the enviro-nuts demanding we drive golf carts. Now if the US started >building reactors again it would be possible, but in their wisdom Greenpeace >has destroyed that option. So either we build gigawatt coal plants (and >invent some way to run them without using a nearby river) or drive 5kph >solar powered electric scooters. Couldn't the French be persuaded to take back Quebec and Louisiana and build some reactors there? >To their credit the one thing the French have done right...is to tell >Greenpeace to stuff it and just go ahead and build the plants. I still have >no idea how the French govt managed that trick. > Jack Peacock Remember the Rainbow Warrior? That was how the french got Greenpeace out of their hair. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <7l1gpc.0e31.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 36 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:00:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1102809604 193.217.159.243 (Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:00:04 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 01:00:04 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191468 In article , Jack Peacock wrote: > wrote in message news:jeydnb5ynOIkfyfcRVn-qQ@rcn.net... >> But do they make a profit? >> >In Europe "profit" is a dirty word. The more enlightened classes all know >profit isn't an issue if the government pays for it. Simply raise the taxes >on the peasantry. After all, it's for their own good... Profit isn't a dirty word here. Although you keep complaining about expenses in case there is a taxman nearby. If someone think profit is a dirty word they can come here and start up the Oslo-Stockholm night train again. >What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold 500kg range >cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks in the middle of the >night? Quite a few highways and railroads in the western US do not have >fences along the roadside. > Jack Peacock The night trains around here regularly make elk mincemeat out of 600kg animals. It helps a lot when the trains are equipped with snowplows. The "turbine plows" used in the mountains will just make the snow red. (Do NOT walk along the railroad tracks around here). Plain plows will also make a lot bigger dent in the animal than in the train. We have been known to overdo locomotive power here as well. 3x10 MW trains are not unheard of. Gradients are a little stiff up to the mountains; and trains need to run on time. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:38:12 +0800 Message-ID: <42rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.144.24 X-Trace: 1102822763 per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au 5614 203.59.144.24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191470 Patrick Scheible writes: >Bernd Felsche writes: >> Dunno. Profitability of individual pieces of infrastructure isn't >> important as long as the losses they impose are less than the cost >> of providing the same facility another way. >> >> IIRC, TGV runs on nuclear power for the most part. >Only in the sense that they run on the electric grid, which in France >is something like 65% from nuclear power. Shhh.... France makes enough electricity from nuclear power to sell to its neighbours. Neighbours who are phasing out and decommissioning their own nuclear power stations. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:39:15 +0800 Message-ID: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.144.24 X-Trace: 1102822764 per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au 5614 203.59.144.24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191471 "Jack Peacock" writes: > wrote in message news:jeydnb5ynOIkfyfcRVn-qQ@rcn.net... >> But do they make a profit? >> >In Europe "profit" is a dirty word. The more enlightened classes all know >profit isn't an issue if the government pays for it. Simply raise the taxes >on the peasantry. After all, it's for their own good... >What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold >500kg range cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks >in the middle of the night? The train generates red mist. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:41:05 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:vYTct50Vfupqz5yBhv/JR494NDM= References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191473 On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 11:36:15 +0100, Andreas Eder wrote: > Fine, so with a quite conventional train that is about an 2.5 hours > voyage. If take into account the time spent at the airport (and > consider that airports usually aren't in the middle of cities while > train stations are) you cannot go mucg faste by plane. > It is succesful e.g. in France. Look at their TGV wich links Paris and > and Marseille. It is about the same distance but has 4 stops in > between. And tzakes about 4 hours. I live in Amsterdam. Whenever I travel to either Brussels (3 hours) or Paris (4 hours), I always take the train in preference to the plane. Not only is it cheaper and faster (door to door times), there's none of the continual 'hurry up and wait' that you always get at airports, even for local flights. And you have bigger seats, more legroom, and the opportunity to stretch your legs from time to time as well. It doesn't work for every journey (only a masochist would not take a plane for a trip between Amsterdam and Edinburgh). But, when it does work, it works an awful lot better than flying. Giles. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:54:15 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:XUogGqTTtvwog+1SEefIzIA+uec= References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <42rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.netscape.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191474 On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:38:12 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: > France makes enough electricity from nuclear power to sell to its > neighbours. Neighbours who are phasing out and decommissioning > their own nuclear power stations. Or not. British Energy (the company that inherited the UK's ageing stock of nuclear power stations) is currently surviving on a care and maintenance basis by means of a government loan while the EU Commission considers whether said loan is illegal state aid. It will be interesting to see what solution the free market comes up with should the Commission decide that the loan is indeed illegal. Because if it is illegal then British Energy is bankrupt. Disposing of what are called its assets will then become an extremely 'interesting' problem for the market to solve. Giles. ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Message-ID: References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:35:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.69.48.244 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1102840545 207.69.48.244 (Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:35:45 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:35:45 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!1f1d1bd7!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191479 On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:25:38 -0800, "Jack Peacock" wrote: >There isn't enough generating capacity in the US to switch to electric >trains. There's plenty of power for electric trains - it's that they cost more to run than trains pulled by diesel electric locomotives. Several electric lines have been de-electrified over the years as diesel electric locomotives cost less to operate than electric ones. Amtrak loses roughly 100 dollars per passenger. They wouldn't break even with the trains 100% full. ###### From: Mistsortierfach@nurfuerspam.de Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:23:50 +0000 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <42rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> Reply-To: Abfallspitzehaufen@ich-bin-verrueckt-nach-dir.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: individual.net QmJ/4PxB2fqmTZztAz3zdwEV9ZnxI9V/dGuudsx+7WDReKtAY= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191480 On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:38:12 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >Shhh.... > >France makes enough electricity from nuclear power to sell to its >neighbours. Neighbours who are phasing out and decommissioning >their own nuclear power stations. And when all the gas suplies get screwed up they will probably charge very un-neighbourly prices. -- Angelo ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <42rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:00:26 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.144.24 X-Trace: 1102849280 per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au 14169 203.59.144.24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191481 Giles Todd writes: >On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:38:12 +0800, Bernd Felsche > wrote: >> France makes enough electricity from nuclear power to sell to its >> neighbours. Neighbours who are phasing out and decommissioning >> their own nuclear power stations. >Or not. British Energy (the company that inherited the UK's ageing >stock of nuclear power stations) is currently surviving on a care and >maintenance basis by means of a government loan while the EU >Commission considers whether said loan is illegal state aid. I didn't know that the French were selling electricity to the Poms. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:43:09 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 04 12:05:23 GMT Message-ID: <8f6dnevBf49DoSHcRVn-pQ@rcn.net> Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.48 X-Trace: sv3-VnPCCuWVa2VCn6H73Er/0OK5c+J8u5ZApPPfqdA+RyEvT5vtuyrnfEE8gYJI5M0cU3bCQBVr+BDwaNS!b8xSRT0A2lxzGc0v33SIjgvozQwJECJPPnxGT6durxZEM/4IjaUj2fBMh7AsY4HgoA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191483 In article , "Jack Peacock" wrote: > wrote in message news:jeydnb5ynOIkfyfcRVn-qQ@rcn.net... >> But do they make a profit? >> >In Europe "profit" is a dirty word. The more enlightened classes all know >profit isn't an issue if the government pays for it. Simply raise the taxes >on the peasantry. After all, it's for their own good... Yes, but there are hints that these people are learning. If they do manage to learn about profits, the next step would be to dump the NIH syndrome. > >What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold 500kg range >cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks in the middle of the >night? Quite a few highways and railroads in the western US do not have >fences along the roadside. Ptui. Fences won't keep them out. ;-) Like I said, Europe is "smaller". Perhaps I should have said tamer. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 06:49:42 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <7l1gpc.0e31.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 04 12:11:56 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.48 X-Trace: sv3-oPSbsARcHlar8IfKJej34G3c/wWJwwR5iGu1RRXjWh+7Uw87VDirdTLO7W6TEKWAClqa5DJbzgWSU8s!1jKGLGMOJ2ZL2wugsD+lGEKEV0+VZ7lkqOJb5T4a6ZobCEXykXflgt/PQ1DAa8t2ag== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191484 In article <7l1gpc.0e31.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>, Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , >Jack Peacock wrote: >> wrote in message news:jeydnb5ynOIkfyfcRVn-qQ@rcn.net... >>> But do they make a profit? >>> >>In Europe "profit" is a dirty word. The more enlightened classes all know >>profit isn't an issue if the government pays for it. Simply raise the taxes >>on the peasantry. After all, it's for their own good... > >Profit isn't a dirty word here. Although you keep complaining >about expenses in case there is a taxman nearby. EXACTLY! That's a core problem. > .. If someone think >profit is a dirty word they can come here and start up the Oslo-Stockholm >night train again. When socialism and unions get involved, the word profit becomes a swear word. > >>What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold 500kg range >>cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks in the middle of the >>night? Quite a few highways and railroads in the western US do not have >>fences along the roadside. >> Jack Peacock > >The night trains around here regularly make elk mincemeat out of 600kg >animals. It helps a lot when the trains are equipped with snowplows. >The "turbine plows" used in the mountains will just make the snow red. >(Do NOT walk along the railroad tracks around here). That won't work here since 100% safety is expected by lawyers. > ..Plain plows >will also make a lot bigger dent in the animal than in the train. hmm...The trains plows that move on the tracks, I live next to, are a different train. None of the regular trains plow. I've always wanted to find out how one does this train biz. Just scheduling would be facinating since it's like trying to shove all the bits down one pipeline without a reverse. > >We have been known to overdo locomotive power here as well. 3x10 MW >trains are not unheard of. Gradients are a little stiff up to the >mountains; and trains need to run on time. This [running on time] is something the US doesn't know how to do. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 07:37:34 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 04 12:59:49 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.48 X-Trace: sv3-dqoQPuJW14tDXAKelnWnZ75CVpNlNSkEOZv7jvC1jYP/iJu22fjCZre7wzYs3idtWu/6n8eTgh/nyEt!1xDXrL50PO3Q+jZgZG8481rdB3k4AuLLP7g59NqnkCtFuD/fU1ZufyxLDJJ3gZt3Ag== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191489 In article <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au>, Bernd Felsche wrote: >"Jack Peacock" writes: > >> wrote in message news:jeydnb5ynOIkfyfcRVn-qQ@rcn.net... >>> But do they make a profit? >>> >>In Europe "profit" is a dirty word. The more enlightened classes all know >>profit isn't an issue if the government pays for it. Simply raise the taxes >>on the peasantry. After all, it's for their own good... > >>What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold >>500kg range cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks >>in the middle of the night? > >The train generates red mist. Now I'm curious. Why do they huddle on the tracks. That would put them up in air in the cold wind. I would think they'ld huddle down below the bank alee (I think that's the correct word) from the wind. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 07:58:05 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 04 13:20:19 GMT Message-ID: <-YGdnfJAifXz0yHcRVn-ug@rcn.net> Lines: 80 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.48 X-Trace: sv3-0uEDmfqXSC4YjoNwkgnBSjbJkROlEyQcPfBIEfPQ1nfEEiMyWLnosP2nRJxePi4H/sx1dCpx+dyWmPy!8ZepWdqLwA261PaJyswQ+ExccfrgMQ0yRd4yy2bWlCwIrZRNUvl6XqXTIgxZkYE/gA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191490 In article , greymaus@yahoo.com wrote: >On Sat, 11 Dec 04 11:24:01 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>railroad stations, while Germany has 645/8764, Italy 215/4765, Russia >>>1445/13745, France 648/6516, and the UK 49/5880. >>> >>>Seems the 'mericans go flying a lot. >> >> Just about every town here seems to have its own "airport". This >> means that there is a strip of land where one of those pipers >> can take off and land. hmm...I bet those towns had a airplane >> nut living there and they made their own airport. I bet that >> doesn't happen in Europe nor Japan. > >Its happening here, Ireland, a very 'enteprising' man is building up a >grass strip airport outside Dublin, without planning permission, to jet >status. As Dublin Airport is a disaster for people trying to get through >it, most people support 'yer man's' project Some pol will fix it. > > >>>>>Just imagine what kind of system we'd have today if the gov't would have >>>>>properly funded Amtrak right from the start. > >Its almost impossible to do this with legacy issues. In Dublin, with >our small system, staff that used to work at one depot, and were >transferred to another about 50 years ago, still report to work at the >first, and then have to be transferred to the other. Weird. That is >the sort of problem that an individual in charge would have solved >yonks ago. > >I have travelled EuroStar and local lines in Europe. They are >wonderful. It all depends on what a Society wants to do with its >resources. It doesn't matter what society wants. Our politicians here are improving the art form of ignoring voters' edicts. >> No, I think it has more to do with patronage. You should have heard >> the screams when patronage jobs got taken away from our state >> politicians at the airport after 9/11. > >Thats at the root of the problems in Dublin, too. > >When I was in Washington last, I loved the extended U-Bahn (or >whatever they call the underground), Metro. It was wonderful. One stop was at the bottom of the hill our hotel was on. We went everywhere using the metro. > ... but coming out through the >Airport later, All I could do is wonder where all the security people >would be working if it wasn't for Osama.. Oh, I can tell you that (if you were in Massachusetts). The difference is that now attendence is taken. These people now have to show up for the full 8-hour shift. > ..The overweight, slow, >panhandling sort that are the staple of all government offices >everywhere. ( Oh, yes, I spent 2 hours recently trying to find out who >was in charge of one government project, they were to return my call) I tried my best to avoid all government and politics. Another side effect of Bin Laden is that he has forced those of us, who preferred to ignore this stuff, to pay attention. He has also taught us to say "No" and mean it. Letting somebody else deal with a problem is no longer an option. People should really think about poking a bear whose goal is have a peaceful sleep. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Stimpy" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:47:34 -0000 Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3237hbF3gcb79U2@individual.net> References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> X-Trace: individual.net mGw3InwpFrVeMnNq97jaAw5ETVRP0Hbd8w2HM3w+zjcXgvGkxT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191493 Jack Peacock wrote: > > I would assume the same economics work in central Australia or western > China. Too far apart for rail in the Outback or the Taklamakan, so > it's either aircraft or drive. The longest straight railway line in the world runs, arrow straight, across the Nullabor to link Perth to the rest of Australia ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: 12 Dec 2004 18:17:49 GMT Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> X-Trace: individual.net qn4vqmMj4wIs1WVjt536RQPzpUYl21v3tZMD9vKz22gEW0N8Jk User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.1 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191497 On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:39:15 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: > "Jack Peacock" writes: > >> wrote in message news:jeydnb5ynOIkfyfcRVn-qQ@rcn.net... >>> But do they make a profit? >>> >>In Europe "profit" is a dirty word. The more enlightened classes all know >>profit isn't an issue if the government pays for it. Simply raise the taxes >>on the peasantry. After all, it's for their own good... > >>What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold >>500kg range cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks >>in the middle of the night? > > The train generates red mist. I once saw the result after a train hit a flock of Sheep. The farmer had a tag in the sheeps right ear, so he counted right ears to find out how many had been killed. (He didn't get any compensation, the accident was caused by a row with a neighbour, who opened a gate onto a line.).. Now, what would happen if the train was travelling at 200kpm ?.. I suppose it would take something bigger than a sheep to derail a train. The sort of situation that would have to be taken into consideration, like the accident in England recently, that was reputably caused by someone commiting suicide by stopping a car on a level crossing. -- greymaus 97.025% of statistics are wrong ###### Message-ID: <41BE1A4F.B26BD005@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answersthe phone) References: <7l1gpc.0e31.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <41BC6DD7.A3BFE72@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:52:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.141.231 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102978346 12.76.141.231 (Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:52:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:52:26 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191517 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > CBFalconer wrote: >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> Morten Reistad wrote: >>> >>.... snip ... >>>> >>>> We have been known to overdo locomotive power here as well. 3x10 MW >>>> trains are not unheard of. Gradients are a little stiff up to the >>>> mountains; and trains need to run on time. >>> >>> This [running on time] is something the US doesn't know how to do. >> >> We used to. In the days of steam very few trains were >> significantly late in any weather. > > Significantly late is not on time. On time means within > a minute, not within an hour nor within a day. I can agree with that definition. I can remember seeing steam powered trains arriving in Montreal West from Vancouver (about 3000 miles) within that criterion. When the weather got really evil in the middle of winter (-40, lots of snow) they might get five hours late. They were handy for students since you could get on them and get a free ride to the center of the city, because nobody on them wanted to bother collecting fares. That was also 15 minutes instead of 1/2 to 1 hour on the streetcar. Nowadays if a car barfs on the right of way everything is held up for 48 hours. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: prep@prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:58:02 +0800 Organization: none Lines: 24 Message-ID: <87acsigs91.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: grimiore.conceptual.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1102957858 7443 203.190.192.5 (13 Dec 2004 17:10:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:10:58 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:bGoxaLiU/8UZl8EvGuy7oHguQ5k= Cache-Post-Path: grimiore.conceptual.net.au!unknown@203-190-198-233.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!198.32.212.248.MISMATCH!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191511 Bernd Felsche writes: > "Jack Peacock" writes: >>What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold >>500kg range cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks >>in the middle of the night? > The train generates red mist. Well, I was on the foot plate years ago and hit a big bull. Did not even feel a bump through my feet, but the nose did notice a min or so later. Bernrd, it was a V class steamer just north of Mt Barker taking wheat to Albany. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41BBE224.1D3ADFCA@yahoo.com> Organization: Me, Myself and I From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@pilt.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.159.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1102892402 193.217.159.243 (Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 00:00:02 MET Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191500 In article <41BBE224.1D3ADFCA@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >Morten Reistad wrote: >> >... snip ... >> >> Remember the Rainbow Warrior? That was how the french got Greenpeace >> out of their hair. > >I see you are recommending terrorism and murder. Followed by >breaking the pledges which persuaded New Zealand to repatriate the >convicted murderers to French prisons. No advocacy involved, just plain reporting. Someone wondered why France hasn't had more eco-protests against their nuclear installations. France can be surprisingly heavy-handed in such affairs; and they somehow get away with it. -- mrr ###### Message-ID: <41BC6DD7.A3BFE72@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <7l1gpc.0e31.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:44:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.137.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1102895075 12.76.137.36 (Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:44:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:44:35 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191501 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Morten Reistad wrote: > ... snip ... >> >> We have been known to overdo locomotive power here as well. 3x10 MW >> trains are not unheard of. Gradients are a little stiff up to the >> mountains; and trains need to run on time. > > This [running on time] is something the US doesn't know how to do. We used to. In the days of steam very few trains were significantly late in any weather. Mussolini only aped us. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 05:26:56 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <7l1gpc.0e31.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> <41BC6DD7.A3BFE72@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 04 10:48:59 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.42 X-Trace: sv3-PHLXxpxwIqdpuuHTFHsxsnJgvSjxiiQgve6keijw9HRl8ttydKA/RvkfrzDM9o4zT1oaqxnIzn0liA0!t+ZX59NJ4CxLscgoFvPsaLTzNY1n2EfHbSnn2bP8nFAYWP/jQjVrG99pnqfXLCk09A== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.20 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191506 In article <41BC6DD7.A3BFE72@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Morten Reistad wrote: >> >.... snip ... >>> >>> We have been known to overdo locomotive power here as well. 3x10 MW >>> trains are not unheard of. Gradients are a little stiff up to the >>> mountains; and trains need to run on time. >> >> This [running on time] is something the US doesn't know how to do. > >We used to. In the days of steam very few trains were >significantly late in any weather. Significantly late is not on time. On time means within a minute, not within an hour nor within a day. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: rogblake10@iname10.com (Roger Blake) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <41BBE224.1D3ADFCA@yahoo.com> <87r7lvpl8w.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks X-No-Archive: Yes Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Lines: 9 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:20:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.8.186.4 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: monger.newsread.com 1102947616 207.8.186.4 (Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:20:16 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:20:16 EST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!64.233.160.134.MISMATCH!postnews.google.com!news1.google.com!newsread.com!newsstand.newsread.com!POSTED.monger.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191510 On 12 Dec 2004 16:52:15 +0100, Pascal Bourguignon wrote: >Ah but this is Greenpeace that belongs to the axis of evil there. Absolutely. Greenpeace is a terrorist organization and should be treated as such. -- Roger Blake (Subtract 10 for email.) ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 23:48:06 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: g@todd.nu Cancel-Lock: sha1:WP+3iaHmepY4R+cBMTFKiHCyGvw= References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <42rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!phb!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191499 On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 19:00:26 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: > I didn't know that the French were selling electricity to the Poms. They were circa 10 years ago. No idea now, but with the rise in gas prices it may well be economical. Giles. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Mikko Nahkola Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> Reply-To: mnahkola@trein.ntc.nokia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 35 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:55:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.22.102.180 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news1.nokia.com 1102942558 172.22.102.180 (Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:55:58 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 14:55:58 EET Organization: Nokia Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder2.news.jippii.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191508 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Bernd Felsche wrote: >>"Jack Peacock" writes: >>> wrote in message >>>What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold >>>500kg range cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks >>>in the middle of the night? >> >>The train generates red mist. > Now I'm curious. Why do they huddle on the tracks. That would > put them up in air in the cold wind. I would think they'ld > huddle down below the bank alee (I think that's the correct word) > from the wind. Ah, but the tracks _are_ down below, every now and then, in places where it's cheaper to dig out a piece of the hill and have a plow, than to raise the lower points enough that the gradient becomes sensible. Besides, the plow alone can produce a nice deep cut in the snow in some circumstances. I have somewhere a bunch of photos from a certain road, summer, winter/plowed, and winter/unplowed. The snowbanks in the middle one are about 2 m high... that's plenty for a moose already, not to mention anything with shorter legs. Oh, and some of these animals _like_ beaten tracks. There's an old lesson about cross-country skiing in the reindeer areas... don't make too noticeable a track in the soft snow, if you want to use it yourself. -- Mikko Nahkola #include #Not speaking for my employer. No warranty. YMMV. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bv@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Reply-To: bv@wjv.com Organization: W.J.Vermillion - Orlando / Winter Park Message-ID: References: Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:35:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.40.24.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1103265306 65.40.24.38 (Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:35:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:35:06 PST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!5c1e743a!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191621 In article , William Hamblen wrote: >On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:25:38 -0800, "Jack Peacock" > wrote: > >>There isn't enough generating capacity in the US to switch to electric >>trains. > >There's plenty of power for electric trains - it's that they cost more >to run than trains pulled by diesel electric locomotives. Several >electric lines have been de-electrified over the years as diesel >electric locomotives cost less to operate than electric ones. >Amtrak loses roughly 100 dollars per passenger. They wouldn't break >even with the trains 100% full. So if they lose 100 per passenger does that means if they have more passengers they lose even more money. If they lose $100 each on 100 passengers that's $10,000. If they lose $200 each on 1000 passengers then they lose $100,000. So to break even they need to carry no passengers by that math :-) Bill -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:01:27 -0600 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:01:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.18.133.20 X-Trace: sv3-TBcmsbtJZX/jCiWyTuYobiFONSQ1f7P/+RCzIIRBjJ1LtzRoEmnabZd4vnjDVpX/ryr69Ten+WJ0x9E!nPlpnN48KKtpGTyZJwQEjLP0/KEQZTsuKK520Cg3ISyIvZy7Uxw3VuAAfs9uovjw+ZipSoHx7PjW!1mI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191641 "Bill Vermillion" wrote in message news:I8usFJ.Bsv@wjv.com... > So to break even they need to carry no passengers by that math :-) > Economics 101, sometimes you lose less money if you operate the factory at a loss, compared to shutdown costs. Besides, there's always the government to provide a bailout, with the nominal cost of buying a few key senators. Losing money per passengers can generate a tidy profit using Washington political economics. Jack Peacock ###### From: Charles Richmond Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:52:30 -0800 Organization: Canine Computer Center Message-ID: <41C6143E.7BF7357F@plano.net> Reply-To: richmond@nospam.plano.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:191728 Bill Vermillion wrote: > > In article , > William Hamblen wrote: > >On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 14:25:38 -0800, "Jack Peacock" > > wrote: > > > >>There isn't enough generating capacity in the US to switch to electric > >>trains. > > > >There's plenty of power for electric trains - it's that they cost more > >to run than trains pulled by diesel electric locomotives. Several > >electric lines have been de-electrified over the years as diesel > >electric locomotives cost less to operate than electric ones. > > >Amtrak loses roughly 100 dollars per passenger. They wouldn't break > >even with the trains 100% full. > > So if they lose 100 per passenger does that means if they have more > passengers they lose even more money. If they lose $100 each on > 100 passengers that's $10,000. If they lose $200 each on 1000 > passengers then they lose $100,000. > > So to break even they need to carry no passengers by that math :-) > No, see...they lose $100 for each passenger they carry, but they make it up through volume. ;-) -- +------------------------------- | Charles and Francis Richmond | richmond at plano dot net | Re-Defeat Bush!!! +------------------------------- ###### Message-ID: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> From: Rupert Pigott Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Reply-To: darkboong@try-removing-hotmail-this.com Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:49:23 +0000 References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> User-Agent: KNode/0.7.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 40 Organization: Zen Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.69.129.217 X-Trace: 1104101363 cockburn.zen.co.uk 1372 82.69.129.217:30228 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zen.co.uk Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!demorgan.zen.co.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!fuller.zen.co.uk!cockburn.zen.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192069 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au>, > Bernd Felsche wrote: >>"Jack Peacock" writes: >> >>> wrote in message > news:jeydnb5ynOIkfyfcRVn-qQ@rcn.net... >>>> But do they make a profit? >>>> >>>In Europe "profit" is a dirty word. The more enlightened classes all > know >>>profit isn't an issue if the government pays for it. Simply raise the > taxes >>>on the peasantry. After all, it's for their own good... >> >>>What happens to the 200-400kph train when it hits a herd of cold >>>500kg range cattle (or antelope, or buffalo) huddling on the tracks >>>in the middle of the night? >> >>The train generates red mist. > > Now I'm curious. Why do they huddle on the tracks. That would > put them up in air in the cold wind. I would think they'ld > huddle down below the bank alee (I think that's the correct word) > from the wind. On a still day cold air falls. The valley bottoms are usually colder than the tops. Sheep tend to gravitate away from the valley floor when night comes around here. That said, they don't stand on the peaks either. :) Wine growers (traditionally) planted their vines on a slope for this very same reason. Cheers, Rupert -- Threading sequential code through the eye of a parallel needle makes little sense. ;) ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:29:26 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 27 Dec 04 11:49:05 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.42 X-Trace: sv3-sTj+Da+bkR8vqcMQyQSFu9IeYGjTAGKoz8FLujqBLIpaSgWW+aUSR+avl4oPN8SVcfQoVZq5PD7lebE!LKUuVkCf/Dyumu5WvPS4cnZBMcpLLy2dAglF5J9ibo3OV5xCV2HHOaHGvrfvSRvWpQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192086 In article <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Rupert Pigott wrote: Welcome back :-)). >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> Now I'm curious. Why do they huddle on the tracks. That would >> put them up in air in the cold wind. I would think they'ld >> huddle down below the bank alee (I think that's the correct word) >> from the wind. > >On a still day cold air falls. The valley bottoms are usually colder >than the tops. Sheep tend to gravitate away from the valley floor >when night comes around here. That said, they don't stand on the >peaks either. :) > >Wine growers (traditionally) planted their vines on a slope for >this very same reason. I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. By the time I saw that the "flurries" were sticking and accumulating in the _morning_, I decided I'd better fill my gas can. And somehow a few inches has turned into 6-8". The current rumor is that the snow will stop falling at 10:00. The good news is that the last storm was all rain. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20041208 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s54 1104208140 24.1.185.48 (Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:29:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:29:00 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 04:29:00 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.hispeed.ch!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s54.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192111 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. > I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. Pity the poor boyfriend or husband that has to wait for snowstorms for *that* ... --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:05:08 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.253 X-Trace: sv3-lzoyReHlkkrjFcZ/kS+uLSIqrDG/jpuF5H6PIsrwsnEOgsQNR4gywCzSA8gPMXiDOgESrDajZJBUV03!l4WbRf/LkL84VRV5/EXL76avgiH4jG8Jh2qllTaBljGlRHibdanfF7DwqTPKvLJRU9k= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192140 In article , Larry Elmore wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. >> I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. > >Pity the poor boyfriend or husband that has to wait for snowstorms for >*that* ... That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have heated pipes under them. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Kelli Halliburton Organization: There is no organization to the universe. Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2.91 (As She Crawled Across the Table) Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bellsouth.net X-Abuse-Info: Please forward a copy of all headers for proper handling X-Trace: pcpocbcnbdmdhgfgdbdpiflmbcekedmfhojhikkbagflhcbodpobminonkdfhbhnpljghmicjifnngdplemdmhonegmlmfjbejoigfipolbcmofhihbbjoldfngcmehnomojbilhhildeflcclmjjcdmmjenhgch NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 15:49:34 EST Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!bigfeed.bellsouth.net!bignumber.bellsouth.net!news.bellsouth.net!bignews1.bellsouth.net.POSTED!20799313!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192103 On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > I get to do a blow job today. Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up the nose is... unpleasant. :) ###### From: keith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:26:08 -0500 Organization: none Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <31pgkiF3e471uU1@individual.net> <1102634377.ad293b05a7d10552f7a8a975473a23fc@teranews> <3pmdnZiPdI9APCTcRVn-2g@rcn.net> <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net a8Oq5PCguYX1h3QwQ76HYw0Zk7HEbgyUc+Xv7aFZjfin9Bt7CV User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192106 On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote: > On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > >> I get to do a blow job today. > > Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up the > nose is... unpleasant. :) If it makes you feel any better, I missed a snoot-full of coffee because the damned cafeteria was closed this week (they didn't tell *ME*). After reading this I had to run out to D&D to get a fix. I *couldn't* have read it right! ;-) It reminds me of a party in early '80 we had for a manager who was leaving to go to another group (I left to follow him shortly after). During the roast it was said that he was the only person around who thought a three-piece suit came with two pair of pants. Then another manager got up and presented him (always wore a military haircut) with a certificate to a unisex hair salon for a "cut and blowjob". The room went up for grabs. -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:01:37 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:21:04 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.253 X-Trace: sv3-0BaxMBSsPa8i/+qFm5gltqO28QfFmeT7uIa87jrUGcrgqWoDXPJ86urF3zk7Gp1QvYx2j/KR1avXIM2!KLeerd+TI8XPYM5QWfPRxdRpC03YOBa+sJf4OazIvch6pE9Ou+hB0wJ1rxXvKbSiNlw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192139 In article , Kelli Halliburton wrote: >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > >> I get to do a blow job today. > >Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up the >nose is... unpleasant. :) At least it wasn't whiskey. ;-) I only had to blow six inches. People on the Cape (Cod for you leftpondians) got to blow 18". /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 06:08:25 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:27:52 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.253 X-Trace: sv3-Vqpdr34YFQIkDS2lmxosQnKR5wG7fLNuO/jStWey0ZOy8nrGqKNjm5zj3Fco6w9cU3KM/DG8+8JkL/C!DDMxaZ+7dKJ0Nyb7BpZh24mUNPfGYOw4U2cCCd4VgNpgPrzGx75yeZ/4vKM6dL+2HJY= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192141 In article , keith wrote: >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote: > >> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: >> >>> I get to do a blow job today. >> >> Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up the >> nose is... unpleasant. :) > >If it makes you feel any better, I missed a snoot-full of coffee because >the damned cafeteria was closed this week (they didn't tell *ME*). After >reading this I had to run out to D&D to get a fix. I *couldn't* have read >it right! ;-) I thought that would get a rise out of you guys. When Mass. had the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the plant (Marlboro). They lived there for a week. The security guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook and eat food. > >It reminds me of a party in early '80 we had for a manager who was leaving >to go to another group (I left to follow him shortly after). During the >roast it was said that he was the only person around who thought a >three-piece suit came with two pair of pants. Then another manager got up >and presented him (always wore a military haircut) with a certificate to a >unisex hair salon for a "cut and blowjob". The room went up for grabs. Oh, those were good ones. :-))) He must have been a hoot to work for. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:08:51 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net MFHpcFA6OKC+e019h8brCQ420bfH+f3B5BxOHc8m6zstwNKTgR X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192144 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > keith wrote: > >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > >> > >>> I get to do a blow job today. > >> > >> Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up the > >> nose is... unpleasant. :) > > > >If it makes you feel any better, I missed a snoot-full of coffee because > >the damned cafeteria was closed this week (they didn't tell *ME*). After > >reading this I had to run out to D&D to get a fix. I *couldn't* have read > >it right! ;-) > > I thought that would get a rise out of you guys. When Mass. had > the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the > plant (Marlboro). They lived there for a week. The security > guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook > and eat food. The same thing happened in Poughkeepsie (perhaps the same storm). The techs had a ball (*over*time*). I bugged out at 2:00PM. ...and got as far as a firehouse in downtown P'ok at 9:00PM. :-( I got home the next day with an ankle as big as a basket ball (fell while pushing cars out). ...then had to get out again to have it X- Ray'd. Fortunately our apartment manager had a beetle. > >It reminds me of a party in early '80 we had for a manager who was leaving > >to go to another group (I left to follow him shortly after). During the > >roast it was said that he was the only person around who thought a > >three-piece suit came with two pair of pants. Then another manager got up > >and presented him (always wore a military haircut) with a certificate to a > >unisex hair salon for a "cut and blowjob". The room went up for grabs. > > Oh, those were good ones. :-))) He must have been a hoot to work > for. He was one of a kind. Either you loved him or hated him. His direct reports thought he was great. We had so much fun that at times it was hard to believe they were paying *us*. -- Keith ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041219 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.89.6.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.185.48 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s53 1104287921 24.1.185.48 (Wed, 29 Dec 2004 02:38:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 02:38:41 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 02:38:41 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s53.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192174 William Hamblen wrote: > On Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >>to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >>amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >>like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >>heated pipes under them. > A former cow-orker lived in Denver for a while. During a furious > blizzard he noticed his across-the-street neighbor plowing his > driveway with a snowblower. He was curious enough to go outside and > ask why. The answer was that if you waited for the snow to stop it > got too deep for the snowblower to work.. Cow-orking should be illegal in any civilized country. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:33:28 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 12:52:45 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-CoQIEDNvW+u0i43kYdG+E7A6J9v3WUm8IE6ZHcd5hkz74V4I9xHcCx6ATnzlJfXVPWj8LWWvqqwCcAO!yGdQIcAXHl+2+eEPRi6L5AvfxAW+8t9a0lWV083Cd163JyNedO5XtH/We7duw2YVpG0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192193 In article , K Williams wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> Larry Elmore wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. >> >> I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. >> > >> >Pity the poor boyfriend or husband that has to wait for snowstorms for >> >*that* ... >> >> That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >> to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >> amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >> like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >> heated pipes under them. > >Mine cleans close enough that a little black shows through. When the >sun finally comes out the black spots catch it and warm the rest enough >to melt (or sublime?) the rest. Yep. That's my strategy, too. > .. A little calcium makes it work all the >faster, That makes messes. > ..though if I don't get some black showing through it turns to >ice. Ice prevention is my first goal. I can't afford to commit body breakage. Now it's supposed to rain later this week. If the thin layer of snow doesn't go away, I'll have to shovel the slush when it rains. There was one winter when I had 3" of ice all over the driveway. The only way I could safely go out of the house was to crawl on it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:36:58 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 12:56:15 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-FtyEt1KQa8IsuxUJJrJfDfVjQzc02NXIRbuGZ8mLFUrLNBYM7UkM0p5ONq1/w8Y2tddrv7jkHkCtXet!KCjnTiVV069s6caaX3zrLVO+rkutrLXMTaTpcF1kw+3+Oraq8SKgFK6xbEWncb5URJE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!meganewsservers.com!feeder2.on.meganewsservers.com!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192196 In article , Larry Elmore wrote: >William Hamblen wrote: >> On Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >>>That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >>>to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >>>amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >>>like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >>>heated pipes under them. >> >> >> A former cow-orker lived in Denver for a while. During a furious >> blizzard he noticed his across-the-street neighbor plowing his >> driveway with a snowblower. He was curious enough to go outside and >> ask why. The answer was that if you waited for the snow to stop it >> got too deep for the snowblower to work.. > >Cow-orking should be illegal in any civilized country. I thought it already was illegal; orking is fun :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:53:18 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 14:12:36 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-zINDgN3kc9KDKhevgOn4ZgfwEqoX3nI+ZTtr2lvlesVn+5pvPSY/2l1ZtqXpR5MWNDWXhj+liT58NFm!ua0Jms1u9CR5kZIf5nWWEdujgpBA1hZTCwdYhvd+QXLqqjyfB6wQQmRKuehGcb72OG0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192207 In article <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Rupert Pigott wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >[SNIP] > >> Ice prevention is my first goal. I can't afford to commit >> body breakage. Now it's supposed to rain later this week. > >I saw some ice boots in a hiking store the other day... I really >was itching to have an excuse to buy a pair of those wicked >crampon laden beasties. I don't think they would have worked with this kind of ice. I couldn't punch a hole in it with a pick. I doubt little shoe picks would have worked well enough. > ... Sounds like you might have an excuse. As >a bonus people will stay the hell away from you in a queue. I don't stand in lines anymore. I've arranged my life so I don't because I can't physically do that anymore :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:06:50 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 14:26:07 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 75 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-Y0MHpNtGPgeixqubDC40EVzKF9lweTVLMcEQOX17Ps42jC9SvUM0XHucdWUMEBOKxVwoRMNoX8/IzuC!mDavMjb1WyHUwC55AftVd3ZpqJpQIoNTSOb2Lsl0f2HM/VYgy09/6wIQbqg8lE3jo8Q= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192210 In article , K Williams wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> K Williams wrote: >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> >> In article , >> >> Larry Elmore wrote: >> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. >> >> >> I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. >> >> > >> >> >Pity the poor boyfriend or husband that has to wait for snowstorms for >> >> >*that* ... >> >> >> >> That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >> >> to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >> >> amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >> >> like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >> >> heated pipes under them. >> > >> >Mine cleans close enough that a little black shows through. When the >> >sun finally comes out the black spots catch it and warm the rest enough >> >to melt (or sublime?) the rest. >> >> Yep. That's my strategy, too. >> >> > .. A little calcium makes it work all the >> >faster, >> >> That makes messes. > >Calcium Chloride doesn't make messes. Sodium chloride sure does >though. I'd rather have ice than track salt through the house. It >gets *everywhere*. Exactly. A neighbor once decided to "help" me and dumped wood ashes on my steps. Sigh! > >Calcium Chloride is more expensive, but it works far better and to a >much lower temperature (*way* below 0F). Even if it doesn't completely >melt the ice the granulated CC pits the ice so it's not slick. Exactly. My solution was to dump hot water onto the ice. I still do that when my steps and area just in front of them are iced up. > .. I keep >a 10# can on the porch for the front stairs and walk. I generally use >250# a winter. A 50# bag is $11-$13 at Home Despot, though they don't >seem to be carrying the granulated CC this year. ...only the flaked, >which is not as good. Doesn't it track in? > >> > ..though if I don't get some black showing through it turns to >> >ice. >> >> Ice prevention is my first goal. I can't afford to commit >> body breakage. Now it's supposed to rain later this week. >> If the thin layer of snow doesn't go away, I'll have to shovel >> the slush when it rains. There was one winter when I had 3" >> of ice all over the driveway. The only way I could safely go >> out of the house was to crawl on it. > >Throw some granulated Calcium Chloride on it. It'll pit the surface so >it isn't slick. The stuff doesn't track at all, and is environmentally >friendlier than sodium chloride (which is useless, IMO). > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> From: Rupert Pigott Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Reply-To: darkboong@try-removing-hotmail-this.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 14:32:14 +0000 References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> User-Agent: KNode/0.7.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 18 Organization: Zen Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.69.129.217 X-Trace: 1104330735 cockburn.zen.co.uk 21329 82.69.129.217:31035 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zen.co.uk Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder.enertel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!dedekind.zen.co.uk!hamilton.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!fuller.zen.co.uk!cockburn.zen.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192201 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: [SNIP] > Ice prevention is my first goal. I can't afford to commit > body breakage. Now it's supposed to rain later this week. I saw some ice boots in a hiking store the other day... I really was itching to have an excuse to buy a pair of those wicked crampon laden beasties. Sounds like you might have an excuse. As a bonus people will stay the hell away from you in a queue. Cheers, Rupert -- Threading sequential code through the eye of a parallel needle makes little sense. ;) ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:46:47 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net I8tdOwuhULNOYuUM6iXa9goFO44cvCqoZnoQGsp3+gck1vniC1 X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192204 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > K Williams wrote: > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> In article , > >> Larry Elmore wrote: > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. > >> >> I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. > >> > > >> >Pity the poor boyfriend or husband that has to wait for snowstorms for > >> >*that* ... > >> > >> That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how > >> to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum > >> amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway > >> like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have > >> heated pipes under them. > > > >Mine cleans close enough that a little black shows through. When the > >sun finally comes out the black spots catch it and warm the rest enough > >to melt (or sublime?) the rest. > > Yep. That's my strategy, too. > > > .. A little calcium makes it work all the > >faster, > > That makes messes. Calcium Chloride doesn't make messes. Sodium chloride sure does though. I'd rather have ice than track salt through the house. It gets *everywhere*. Calcium Chloride is more expensive, but it works far better and to a much lower temperature (*way* below 0F). Even if it doesn't completely melt the ice the granulated CC pits the ice so it's not slick. I keep a 10# can on the porch for the front stairs and walk. I generally use 250# a winter. A 50# bag is $11-$13 at Home Despot, though they don't seem to be carrying the granulated CC this year. ...only the flaked, which is not as good. > > ..though if I don't get some black showing through it turns to > >ice. > > Ice prevention is my first goal. I can't afford to commit > body breakage. Now it's supposed to rain later this week. > If the thin layer of snow doesn't go away, I'll have to shovel > the slush when it rains. There was one winter when I had 3" > of ice all over the driveway. The only way I could safely go > out of the house was to crawl on it. Throw some granulated Calcium Chloride on it. It'll pit the surface so it isn't slick. The stuff doesn't track at all, and is environmentally friendlier than sodium chloride (which is useless, IMO). -- Keith ###### Message-ID: <41d2d880$0$21321$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> From: Rupert Pigott Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Reply-To: darkboong@try-removing-hotmail-this.com Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 16:16:48 +0000 References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> User-Agent: KNode/0.7.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 31 Organization: Zen Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.69.129.217 X-Trace: 1104337024 cockburn.zen.co.uk 21321 82.69.129.217:20588 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zen.co.uk Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!fuller.zen.co.uk!cockburn.zen.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192213 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, > Rupert Pigott wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>[SNIP] >> >>> Ice prevention is my first goal. I can't afford to commit >>> body breakage. Now it's supposed to rain later this week. >> >>I saw some ice boots in a hiking store the other day... I really >>was itching to have an excuse to buy a pair of those wicked >>crampon laden beasties. > > I don't think they would have worked with this kind of ice. > I couldn't punch a hole in it with a pick. I doubt little > shoe picks would have worked well enough. They do work according to my climbing friends of many years ago. I hung out with them (literally) for a short but fun climb. I've seen locals use them on the roads here when a stream flowing across a road leaves a nice sheet of black ice. :) Cheers, Rupert -- Threading sequential code through the eye of a parallel needle makes little sense. ;) ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 11:18:29 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net HIKhlxohPhTs0bUpQOkUpwIiehlyKl3K/Iw32LPuBDAovTql4g X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!inka.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192215 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > K Williams wrote: > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> In article , > >> K Williams wrote: > >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> >> In article , > >> >> Larry Elmore wrote: > >> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > .. A little calcium makes it work all the > >> >faster, > >> > >> That makes messes. > > > >Calcium Chloride doesn't make messes. Sodium chloride sure does > >though. I'd rather have ice than track salt through the house. It > >gets *everywhere*. > > Exactly. A neighbor once decided to "help" me and dumped wood ashes > on my steps. Sigh! Oh, my! That is major mess time. > >Calcium Chloride is more expensive, but it works far better and to a > >much lower temperature (*way* below 0F). Even if it doesn't completely > >melt the ice the granulated CC pits the ice so it's not slick. > > Exactly. My solution was to dump hot water onto the ice. I still > do that when my steps and area just in front of them are iced up. Hot water will not stay hot. Now you have slick ice. You've just zamboni'd yourself in, eh? > > .. I keep > >a 10# can on the porch for the front stairs and walk. I generally use > >250# a winter. A 50# bag is $11-$13 at Home Despot, though they don't > >seem to be carrying the granulated CC this year. ...only the flaked, > >which is not as good. > > Doesn't it track in? Calcium Chloride doesn't. ...at least not like Sodium Chloride. Sure, you're going to leave a footprint on the floor, but that's about it. -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:12:35 -0600 From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 19:17:12 -0600 Message-ID: <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> Cancel-Lock: sha1:Enr2Wh/ic8cxPo0KJETHZw+Xw9M= References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.52.5.17 X-Trace: sv3-D25qzh2l2XrhXCsgE2ofVbEJW1NrsbeWZYBbNsMsNzEcpHmTgiVvNpbu5bB2nAHztp5Comj2FErvWAf!EViCvzbxu/bPv/eDfU0GSuK3wzswGVAihZcNryT+/SUxDDDE2u0W7vLUDS9KeLFUhnkO2uoqXZ7j!CsUyF8hl X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192173 On Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >heated pipes under them. A former cow-orker lived in Denver for a while. During a furious blizzard he noticed his across-the-street neighbor plowing his driveway with a snowblower. He was curious enough to go outside and ask why. The answer was that if you waited for the snow to stop it got too deep for the snowblower to work.. ###### From: Roland Hutchinson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 00:11:52 -0500 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <33eskoF3uciqsU2@individual.net> References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Trace: individual.net LKM8jMJWSwuOGwJqs5P4AAAxN15yuKk/reYQ0PlQM8dTtnZHc= User-Agent: KNode/0.7.7 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192179 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > When Mass. had > the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the > plant (Marlboro).  They lived there for a week.  The security > guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook > and eat food. Gee, I got off pretty easy in that one -- just stuck in an apartment in Allston with my roomie, developing the worst case of cabin fever I've ever experienced in my life. It was a proper storm, all right. -- Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:35:57 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 12:55:14 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-NR6bKqFbfd/XECH/ZYANJpy8dHEgz/ArzehDTYtPSAzrYs+ob2ZmNpAUJjx7ie1un5/PkGadhh27slG!xIGiJWjBHhYNmUMEBYbSBQqQH5EVrs5s2z9CGZI05TzYbzO4p3lH6m0l0FqfnD7RxJ4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192195 In article <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com>, William Hamblen wrote: >On Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >>to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >>amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >>like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >>heated pipes under them. > >A former cow-orker lived in Denver for a while. During a furious >blizzard he noticed his across-the-street neighbor plowing his >driveway with a snowblower. He was curious enough to go outside and >ask why. The answer was that if you waited for the snow to stop it >got too deep for the snowblower to work.. Right. My plan is to go out several times to clear all snow with the exception of the end of the driveway if we ever get one of those blizzards. I tried to clear a 20" one time. The snow got too heavy and too wet so I was brooming the funnel every other footstep. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:41:00 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 13:00:17 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 71 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-16DCWDX8bzPxSFBLH7F/Y6lapXScPHJ2Gs10XYK7HQobcdYIKJ69RVITBWTBbhaU6jiGVfuEuXsrrJ2!0TLxdj8uMCmahxjLdM6ZCL/ww2lwfR5bagGaT5M4pqwGm9q1O/UaAP9fVhPLrdc51kM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192197 In article , K Williams wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> keith wrote: >> >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote: >> > >> >> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: >> >> >> >>> I get to do a blow job today. >> >> >> >> Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up the >> >> nose is... unpleasant. :) >> > >> >If it makes you feel any better, I missed a snoot-full of coffee because >> >the damned cafeteria was closed this week (they didn't tell *ME*). After >> >reading this I had to run out to D&D to get a fix. I *couldn't* have read >> >it right! ;-) >> >> I thought that would get a rise out of you guys. When Mass. had >> the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the >> plant (Marlboro). They lived there for a week. The security >> guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook >> and eat food. > >The same thing happened in Poughkeepsie (perhaps the same storm). The >techs had a ball (*over*time*). I bugged out at 2:00PM. ...and got as >far as a firehouse in downtown P'ok at 9:00PM. :-( Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, my only snow shovel was in the car. > >I got home the next day with an ankle as big as a basket ball (fell >while pushing cars out). ...then had to get out again to have it X- >Ray'd. Fortunately our apartment manager had a beetle. JMF had one. He told the story about passing everybody who was stuck in order to get home. > >> >It reminds me of a party in early '80 we had for a manager who was leaving >> >to go to another group (I left to follow him shortly after). During the >> >roast it was said that he was the only person around who thought a >> >three-piece suit came with two pair of pants. Then another manager got up >> >and presented him (always wore a military haircut) with a certificate to a >> >unisex hair salon for a "cut and blowjob". The room went up for grabs. >> >> Oh, those were good ones. :-))) He must have been a hoot to work >> for. > >He was one of a kind. Either you loved him or hated him. His direct >reports thought he was great. We had so much fun that at times it was >hard to believe they were paying *us*. I bet you made a lot of good stuff with him holding the bullshit umbrella. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 07:42:32 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <33eskoF3uciqsU2@individual.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 13:01:49 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-n2BoFKOD+EqexRvdwl5aceWfBo3WdrmjPvtUgsdnWYnz298iNRpZTxujEp9fg4ZdK1NUQ3k5b5Y1ZQc!adlARE5I90gjHlXgZeFWWIZi84drW8JOMuJdDh5GTf16vejtV47lRufKmIlsGxG/mV4= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192198 In article <33eskoF3uciqsU2@individual.net>, Roland Hutchinson wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> When Mass. had >> the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the >> plant (Marlboro).  They lived there for a week.  The security >> guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook >> and eat food. > >Gee, I got off pretty easy in that one -- just stuck in an apartment in >Allston with my roomie, developing the worst case of cabin fever I've ever >experienced in my life. Definitely cabin fever of 1000 degress. > >It was a proper storm, all right. People here have already forgotten. I keep being amazed at people who are stupid enough to go out driving. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 08:24:18 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> X-Trace: individual.net E2bhLmWgW50YejaIUAh2YQtoRXEQHYy6hAm8YjD4WJtbtton/g X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192190 In article <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com>, william.hamblen@earthlink.net says... > On Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how > >to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum > >amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway > >like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have > >heated pipes under them. > > A former cow-orker lived in Denver for a while. During a furious > blizzard he noticed his across-the-street neighbor plowing his > driveway with a snowblower. He was curious enough to go outside and > ask why. The answer was that if you waited for the snow to stop it > got too deep for the snowblower to work.. > I do that in every major storm. I'll run home and blow the driveway out before my wife gets home, at perhaps 11:00PM, and again at 7:00AM, depending on when the storm comes. Last season we had three in a row (within ten days) that dumped about five feet of snow. The snow blower was having a hard time getting the stuff above the banks from the previous storm. It certainly wasn't going to cut through two (or five) feet. -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:03:53 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 14:23:11 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 106 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-JO5xrMvX8g7ATiUcQUzN71MoUKCD9r2VHtpmQViJ2haq/3FyYheqHJgT89VWYxt2EUWcf0YH8/RXIh5!GYH+stJ6J9fNAw1ugsjJ38jZTk9rL394PYpvotEDjDMmlcqddrCXKFfnFvvONxvLKSE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192208 In article , K Williams wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> K Williams wrote: >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> >> In article , >> >> keith wrote: >> >> >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> I get to do a blow job today. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up >> the >> >> >> nose is... unpleasant. :) >> >> > >> >> >If it makes you feel any better, I missed a snoot-full of coffee >> because >> >> >the damned cafeteria was closed this week (they didn't tell *ME*). >> After >> >> >reading this I had to run out to D&D to get a fix. I *couldn't* have >> read >> >> >it right! ;-) >> >> >> >> I thought that would get a rise out of you guys. When Mass. had >> >> the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the >> >> plant (Marlboro). They lived there for a week. The security >> >> guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook >> >> and eat food. >> > >> >The same thing happened in Poughkeepsie (perhaps the same storm). The >> >techs had a ball (*over*time*). I bugged out at 2:00PM. ...and got as >> >far as a firehouse in downtown P'ok at 9:00PM. :-( >> >> Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. >> '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there >> wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, >> my only snow shovel was in the car. > >I wuz thinking '78 because I thought it was the year my wife was >pregnant (hmm, 2004 - 26 is...) and at home alone. She must have been absolutely thrilled...especially when you came home broken. > .. I wasn't sure and >not about to correct you. ;-) I have stated that all my code always had off by one bugs. Years and anniversaries are the first things that I've always forgotten. >> >> > >> >I got home the next day with an ankle as big as a basket ball (fell >> >while pushing cars out). ...then had to get out again to have it X- >> >Ray'd. Fortunately our apartment manager had a beetle. >> >> JMF had one. He told the story about passing everybody who was >> stuck in order to get home. > >Amazing cars in the snow. I'd have never bought one because his fuel line kept freezing. It got so that I kept a couple bottles of dry gas in my car to rescue him. > ..I've fixed the winter driving problem >though. As I tell the wife; I have a four-wheel-drive truck. I can go >*anywhere*. It's even an "Off Road" truck. I can even go off the >road. ;-) JMF loved to tell the story about his bridge partner who was very rich. She bought a swimming suit at Nieman-Marcus, jumped into the pool, when it immediately fell off in pieces. She brought it back to the store to get her hundreds of dollars back. The clerk exclaimed, "You don't swimming in that suit!." Apparently, it was designed for looks only and wasn't waterproof. >> I bet you made a lot of good stuff with him holding the bullshit >> umbrella. > >Sure. We were working on the 3081 and 303x systems at the time. He >ran an engineering cost-center (rent-an-engineer, sorta), so we did >everything from power system controls to logic circuit design to logic >test systems. The great thing about it was even if one didn't like >what one was doing (like the 303x interface specifications) the job >would only last six months. Get it done and move on to something more >interesting. We'd started working on the 3090 power system controls >when the bullshit umbrella collapsed (we became too high profile), so I >left to work on Intel Micros, where he became my second-line manager. The bad thing about job shopping like that is that you never get to follow production from beginning of the product's lifetime to the end. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:11:40 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 29 Dec 04 14:30:57 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.164 X-Trace: sv3-UxzSRNK0KrA9smj4qWy8HSvS91ISGSTPYitY4rAXECRd7E90hkOg0/lF0KORLhxEwHhbvHA2bbYjoZQ!sKr02Mce7iDb2T2LOhfXCZD5MmgEvAET4S0cwx4RTWCPpp7rIjml9SFW5/jHBPu79SU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192211 In article , K Williams wrote: >In article <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com>, >william.hamblen@earthlink.net says... >> On Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >> >to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >> >amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >> >like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >> >heated pipes under them. >> >> A former cow-orker lived in Denver for a while. During a furious >> blizzard he noticed his across-the-street neighbor plowing his >> driveway with a snowblower. He was curious enough to go outside and >> ask why. The answer was that if you waited for the snow to stop it >> got too deep for the snowblower to work.. >> >I do that in every major storm. I'll run home and blow the driveway >out before my wife gets home, at perhaps 11:00PM, and again at 7:00AM, >depending on when the storm comes. Last season we had three in a row >(within ten days) that dumped about five feet of snow. The snow blower >was having a hard time getting the stuff above the banks from the >previous storm. It certainly wasn't going to cut through two (or five) >feet. > You have to change your blowing technique when the snow gets that deep. You keep your hand on the handle that keeps the blades in motion but don't use the one that moves the wheels. Instead you push the whole handle up and down. The trick is to keep moving the blower up and down while standing in the same place. First you end up making a cave which collapes the upper level down to the ground. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 09:39:35 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 90 Message-ID: References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net idPWenr34NavZnMyaMSEhQnjWtUP3JV7BsKXwmF9p4J8rnHjL2 X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192202 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > K Williams wrote: > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> In article , > >> keith wrote: > >> >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> I get to do a blow job today. > >> >> > >> >> Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda up > the > >> >> nose is... unpleasant. :) > >> > > >> >If it makes you feel any better, I missed a snoot-full of coffee > because > >> >the damned cafeteria was closed this week (they didn't tell *ME*). > After > >> >reading this I had to run out to D&D to get a fix. I *couldn't* have > read > >> >it right! ;-) > >> > >> I thought that would get a rise out of you guys. When Mass. had > >> the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the > >> plant (Marlboro). They lived there for a week. The security > >> guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook > >> and eat food. > > > >The same thing happened in Poughkeepsie (perhaps the same storm). The > >techs had a ball (*over*time*). I bugged out at 2:00PM. ...and got as > >far as a firehouse in downtown P'ok at 9:00PM. :-( > > Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. > '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there > wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, > my only snow shovel was in the car. I wuz thinking '78 because I thought it was the year my wife was pregnant (hmm, 2004 - 26 is...) and at home alone. I wasn't sure and not about to correct you. ;-) > > > > >I got home the next day with an ankle as big as a basket ball (fell > >while pushing cars out). ...then had to get out again to have it X- > >Ray'd. Fortunately our apartment manager had a beetle. > > JMF had one. He told the story about passing everybody who was > stuck in order to get home. Amazing cars in the snow. I've fixed the winter driving problem though. As I tell the wife; I have a four-wheel-drive truck. I can go *anywhere*. It's even an "Off Road" truck. I can even go off the road. ;-) > >> >It reminds me of a party in early '80 we had for a manager who was > leaving > >> >to go to another group (I left to follow him shortly after). During > the > >> >roast it was said that he was the only person around who thought a > >> >three-piece suit came with two pair of pants. Then another manager got > up > >> >and presented him (always wore a military haircut) with a certificate > to a > >> >unisex hair salon for a "cut and blowjob". The room went up for grabs. > >> > >> Oh, those were good ones. :-))) He must have been a hoot to work > >> for. > > > >He was one of a kind. Either you loved him or hated him. His direct > >reports thought he was great. We had so much fun that at times it was > >hard to believe they were paying *us*. > > I bet you made a lot of good stuff with him holding the bullshit > umbrella. Sure. We were working on the 3081 and 303x systems at the time. He ran an engineering cost-center (rent-an-engineer, sorta), so we did everything from power system controls to logic circuit design to logic test systems. The great thing about it was even if one didn't like what one was doing (like the 303x interface specifications) the job would only last six months. Get it done and move on to something more interesting. We'd started working on the 3090 power system controls when the bullshit umbrella collapsed (we became too high profile), so I left to work on Intel Micros, where he became my second-line manager. -- Keith ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:48:39 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 127 Message-ID: References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net 5LBuTeVux73QBQtsqPLSYAd767al8XRxeBEHjyOqDQVeQEWMSG X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192219 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > K Williams wrote: > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> In article , > >> K Williams wrote: > >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> >> In article , > >> >> keith wrote: > >> >> >On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 14:53:30 -0600, Kelli Halliburton wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:49:05 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> I get to do a blow job today. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dammit, Barb, I was trying to drink a soda when I read that. Soda > up > >> the > >> >> >> nose is... unpleasant. :) > >> >> > > >> >> >If it makes you feel any better, I missed a snoot-full of coffee > >> because > >> >> >the damned cafeteria was closed this week (they didn't tell *ME*). > >> After > >> >> >reading this I had to run out to D&D to get a fix. I *couldn't* > have > >> read > >> >> >it right! ;-) > >> >> > >> >> I thought that would get a rise out of you guys. When Mass. had > >> >> the Storm of '77, there were a few people who got stuck at the > >> >> plant (Marlboro). They lived there for a week. The security > >> >> guard helped to break into the Cafeteria so they could cook > >> >> and eat food. > >> > > >> >The same thing happened in Poughkeepsie (perhaps the same storm). The > >> >techs had a ball (*over*time*). I bugged out at 2:00PM. ...and got as > >> >far as a firehouse in downtown P'ok at 9:00PM. :-( > >> > >> Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. > >> '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there > >> wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, > >> my only snow shovel was in the car. > > > >I wuz thinking '78 because I thought it was the year my wife was > >pregnant (hmm, 2004 - 26 is...) and at home alone. > > She must have been absolutely thrilled...especially when you came > home broken. About as thrilled as a few months later when the car got squashed (I tried to duel[*] with a pickup/plow) and didn't come home. Walked away, but took an ambulance to the ER and spent several hours there. [*] My Ford Rustang-II lost. Amazingly the car we'd ordered six weeks before was delivered the next day. > > .. I wasn't sure and > >not about to correct you. ;-) > > I have stated that all my code always had off by one bugs. > Years and anniversaries are the first things that I've always > forgotten. I had that problem too. I fixed it by leaving programming to the programmers. ;-) > >> >I got home the next day with an ankle as big as a basket ball (fell > >> >while pushing cars out). ...then had to get out again to have it X- > >> >Ray'd. Fortunately our apartment manager had a beetle. > >> > >> JMF had one. He told the story about passing everybody who was > >> stuck in order to get home. > > > >Amazing cars in the snow. > > I'd have never bought one because his fuel line kept freezing. > It got so that I kept a couple bottles of dry gas in my car > to rescue him. The thing that saves modern cars is the sealed fuel system. Of course the fuel delivery system is better these days too (dual walled ground tanks, and all). I can't remember the last time I froze a fuel line. It must be 20 years back. > > ..I've fixed the winter driving problem > >though. As I tell the wife; I have a four-wheel-drive truck. I can go > >*anywhere*. It's even an "Off Road" truck. I can even go off the > >road. ;-) > > JMF loved to tell the story about his bridge partner who > was very rich. She bought a swimming suit at Nieman-Marcus, jumped > into the pool, when it immediately fell off in pieces. She brought > it back to the store to get her hundreds of dollars back. The > clerk exclaimed, "You don't swimming in that suit!." Apparently, > it was designed for looks only and wasn't waterproof. Ah, I remember the stories about the paper bikinis. Seems some women got miffed when the guys thew them in the pool. ...and guys will do that. ;-) > > > >> I bet you made a lot of good stuff with him holding the bullshit > >> umbrella. > > > >Sure. We were working on the 3081 and 303x systems at the time. He > >ran an engineering cost-center (rent-an-engineer, sorta), so we did > >everything from power system controls to logic circuit design to logic > >test systems. The great thing about it was even if one didn't like > >what one was doing (like the 303x interface specifications) the job > >would only last six months. Get it done and move on to something more > >interesting. We'd started working on the 3090 power system controls > >when the bullshit umbrella collapsed (we became too high profile), so I > >left to work on Intel Micros, where he became my second-line manager. > > The bad thing about job shopping like that is that you never get > to follow production from beginning of the product's lifetime > to the end. Oh, were were still there when the fit hit the shan. The big positive was that we got to do a lot of different things. I started out as a circuit designer but found that I liked system design better. Since system designers > circuits designers, it worked out. -- Keith ###### From: prep@prep.synonet.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:36:32 +0800 Organization: none Lines: 32 Message-ID: <877jmzvj3j.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grimiore.conceptual.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1104425198 5317 203.190.192.5 (30 Dec 2004 16:46:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:46:38 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:U/83S1OK1TZKVwrlfKqOW/CzblY= Cache-Post-Path: grimiore.conceptual.net.au!unknown@203-190-198-148.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.hispeed.ch!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!198.32.212.248.MISMATCH!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192262 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article , > Larry Elmore wrote: >>William Hamblen wrote: >>> On Tue, 28 Dec 04 11:24:35 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>>That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >>>>to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >>>>amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >>>>like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >>>>heated pipes under them. >>> A former cow-orker lived in Denver for a while. During a furious >>> blizzard he noticed his across-the-street neighbor plowing his >>> driveway with a snowblower. He was curious enough to go outside >>> and ask why. The answer was that if you waited for the snow to >>> stop it got too deep for the snowblower to work.. >>Cow-orking should be illegal in any civilized country. > I thought it already was illegal; orking is fun :-). He siad Denver. Neither illegal, nor civilised ;) -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:43:17 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2d880$0$21321$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 04 12:02:24 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.13 X-Trace: sv3-0AHUIUW2v7CY6hTSzrGBIoplAJ8SWS9muoXh9QyaJkqJSj5nVHObXhPpwuuV2xLOI5bodcssAIeIgF3!hOgLmp4VdyKnBXxMFyXeS9YM0eWoJoqLJDbLrpyPZ13Zu5U835YqwA1xn2LbgDSWCA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192250 In article <41d2d880$0$21321$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Rupert Pigott wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, >> Rupert Pigott wrote: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>[SNIP] >>> >>>> Ice prevention is my first goal. I can't afford to commit >>>> body breakage. Now it's supposed to rain later this week. >>> >>>I saw some ice boots in a hiking store the other day... I really >>>was itching to have an excuse to buy a pair of those wicked >>>crampon laden beasties. >> >> I don't think they would have worked with this kind of ice. >> I couldn't punch a hole in it with a pick. I doubt little >> shoe picks would have worked well enough. > >They do work according to my climbing friends of many years >ago. I'm they do work for them but they're not walking on the kind of ice I'm talking about. > ..I hung out with them (literally) for a short but fun >climb. I've seen locals use them on the roads here when a >stream flowing across a road leaves a nice sheet of black >ice. :) But I'm not talking about black ice. Snow rained upon and then frozen at 0C cannot be picked with a pointy device without a male's double-arm power behind it. The heel of a stilleto high heel may work. It would take a long time to cover a whole driveway. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 06:46:41 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 04 12:05:48 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 69 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.13 X-Trace: sv3-MgKAXKAMncKMx2kE+0EN6/1UZ1Lyu5uYz2US5mrUfJ5d77AJA7mfyJ+rmi348ZdBkiC40ep6OSAaS4c!JW8xub082YatN5C9mtXTNeBGQhDeM30f/TEO/m0rhEuf8zQBCaV3fYND/dFBpbyc1w== X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192251 In article , K Williams wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> K Williams wrote: >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> >> In article , >> >> K Williams wrote: >> >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> >> >> In article , >> >> >> Larry Elmore wrote: >> >> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> >> > .. A little calcium makes it work all the >> >> >faster, >> >> >> >> That makes messes. >> > >> >Calcium Chloride doesn't make messes. Sodium chloride sure does >> >though. I'd rather have ice than track salt through the house. It >> >gets *everywhere*. >> >> Exactly. A neighbor once decided to "help" me and dumped wood ashes >> on my steps. Sigh! > >Oh, my! That is major mess time. > >> >Calcium Chloride is more expensive, but it works far better and to a >> >much lower temperature (*way* below 0F). Even if it doesn't completely >> >melt the ice the granulated CC pits the ice so it's not slick. >> >> Exactly. My solution was to dump hot water onto the ice. I still >> do that when my steps and area just in front of them are iced up. > >Hot water will not stay hot. Now you have slick ice. You've just >zamboni'd yourself in, eh? Nope. First you melt it and then you sweep very fast. I got the idea from that ice game guys play. I evaporate the water before it freezes. Of course I don't dump water on the steps when the water would freeze immediately. When I have an inch of ice, even reducing it to a very thin layer of black ice will cause the steps to become dry by the next day. I will never again buy a house whose steps are on the north side. They will be on the east so the sun can melt all ice. > >> > .. I keep >> >a 10# can on the porch for the front stairs and walk. I generally use >> >250# a winter. A 50# bag is $11-$13 at Home Despot, though they don't >> >seem to be carrying the granulated CC this year. ...only the flaked, >> >which is not as good. >> >> Doesn't it track in? > >Calcium Chloride doesn't. ...at least not like Sodium Chloride. Sure, >you're going to leave a footprint on the floor, but that's about it. If there is a footprint, then it means I have to clean. It would be a last choice. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:47:49 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net V1cYhInT0Y3z6jnBnCYRwA155KyKnt197NN4rr3Js8TLzxOz0+ X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192252 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > K Williams wrote: > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> In article , > >> K Williams wrote: > >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> >> In article , > >> >> K Williams wrote: > >> >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com > says... > >> >> >> In article , > >> >> >> Larry Elmore wrote: > >> >> >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >> >> > .. A little calcium makes it work all the > >> >> >faster, > >> >> > >> >> That makes messes. > >> > > >> >Calcium Chloride doesn't make messes. Sodium chloride sure does > >> >though. I'd rather have ice than track salt through the house. It > >> >gets *everywhere*. > >> > >> Exactly. A neighbor once decided to "help" me and dumped wood ashes > >> on my steps. Sigh! > > > >Oh, my! That is major mess time. > > > >> >Calcium Chloride is more expensive, but it works far better and to a > >> >much lower temperature (*way* below 0F). Even if it doesn't completely > >> >melt the ice the granulated CC pits the ice so it's not slick. > >> > >> Exactly. My solution was to dump hot water onto the ice. I still > >> do that when my steps and area just in front of them are iced up. > > > >Hot water will not stay hot. Now you have slick ice. You've just > >zamboni'd yourself in, eh? > > Nope. First you melt it and then you sweep very fast. I got > the idea from that ice game guys play. I evaporate the water > before it freezes. Of course I don't dump water on the steps > when the water would freeze immediately. > > > When I have an inch of ice, even reducing it to a very thin > layer of black ice will cause the steps to become dry by the > next day. I will never again buy a house whose steps are on > the north side. They will be on the east so the sun can melt > all ice. > > > > >> > .. I keep > >> >a 10# can on the porch for the front stairs and walk. I generally use > >> >250# a winter. A 50# bag is $11-$13 at Home Despot, though they don't > >> >seem to be carrying the granulated CC this year. ...only the flaked, > >> >which is not as good. > >> > >> Doesn't it track in? > > > >Calcium Chloride doesn't. ...at least not like Sodium Chloride. Sure, > >you're going to leave a footprint on the floor, but that's about it. > > If there is a footprint, then it means I have to clean. It would > be a last choice. You'll get a footprint from the crud in the snow. Simply throw a rug down to step on while removing boots. Take rug and throw in washer every couple of weeks. -- Keith ###### Message-ID: <41d424c6$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> From: Rupert Pigott Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Reply-To: darkboong@try-removing-hotmail-this.com Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 15:54:46 +0000 References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2d880$0$21321$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> User-Agent: KNode/0.7.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 23 Organization: Zen Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.69.129.217 X-Trace: 1104422087 cockburn.zen.co.uk 21329 82.69.129.217:43886 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zen.co.uk Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!news-peer1!btnet!demorgan.zen.co.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!fuller.zen.co.uk!cockburn.zen.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192259 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: [SNIP] > But I'm not talking about black ice. Snow rained upon and then > frozen at 0C cannot be picked with a pointy device without > a male's double-arm power behind it. The heel of a stilleto > high heel may work. It would take a long time to cover a whole > driveway. Err, that's exactly what people use ice boots/crampons for... Walking on ice, black, white, loose, frozen snow etc... Was thinking it may save you a tumble and allow you to be a bit more comfy as you try to hack the ice to pieces. Specialist footwear can work wonders in my experience. Cheers, Rupert -- Threading sequential code through the eye of a parallel needle makes little sense. ;) ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:24:27 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4d25072404dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03g (RISC-OS/5.08) NewsHound/1.43-32-pre2 Organization: None Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust195.tnt28.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1104347697 news-text.dial.pipex.com 19162 62.188.156.195:54679 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsoutpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192222 In article , wrote: > Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. > '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there > wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, > my only snow shovel was in the car. This year, the joke "Q: how can you tell it is summer in the UK? A: the rain is warmer" was shown to be the literal truth, but at least we do not have snow like what you get. I like our mild southern winters, and being able to do some work in the garden in November or December in shirtsleeves. The more winter weather stories I read on here, the happier I am to be in the UK! Dave Daniels ###### From: Alan Balmer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:02:17 -0700 Organization: Balmer Consulting Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <4d25072404dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Reply-To: albalmer@spamcop.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: individual.net jkWBoywO9LqIUYDvba5dcQbCTxKAtUqQvkzk2Pgn85GJLsksKB Cancel-Lock: sha1:DcOsa5QV4IuxDu83sXqphbBbNBs= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192223 On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:24:27 +0000 (GMT), Dave Daniels wrote: >In article , > wrote: >> Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. >> '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there >> wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, >> my only snow shovel was in the car. > >This year, the joke "Q: how can you tell it is summer in the UK? >A: the rain is warmer" was shown to be the literal truth, but at >least we do not have snow like what you get. I like our mild >southern winters, and being able to do some work in the garden >in November or December in shirtsleeves. The more winter weather >stories I read on here, the happier I am to be in the UK! > >Dave Daniels We have a choice. Here in Phoenix, Arizona, it's mid-sixties (about 17 C) this time of year, on the average. Or we can go skiing 2 hours drive north. -- Al Balmer Balmer Consulting removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <4d25072404dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 29 Dec 2004 21:01:34 GMT Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-188-147.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1104354094 news-text.dial.pipex.com 19163 62.241.188.147:17876 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsoutpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192225 On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:24:27 +0000 (GMT), Dave Daniels wrote: > >This year, the joke "Q: how can you tell it is summer in the UK? >A: the rain is warmer" was shown to be the literal truth, but at >least we do not have snow like what you get. We _used_ to get a lot of snow, I've been snowed in a couple of times in southern UK. Up here (Merseyside) we've had _one_ day of real snow - about an inch deep - in the last 12 years or so, winters are definitely getting warmer! I don't mind the lack of snow one bit :-) >I like our mild >southern winters, London is the same latitude as northern Newfoundland. It's the Gulf Stream that keeps us warm... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 06:59:58 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <48v3t0tmebqd0ilroc855ajhe64rttm953@4ax.com> <877jmzvj3j.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 12:18:55 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.240 X-Trace: sv3-ZP3o9PZun3L+0ay+kjV4VlRdnP+uiynyAEApdM/1K1I6pQichB0KKre4qlEH2SImFQLs62UnzzuuLrn!8JKDjH6/wUESFXequv9f4c3x26vhKmPu17tkN0DFOd77ynCGwLP4hCwRvn/+LVUqUtw= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192288 In article <877jmzvj3j.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article , >> Larry Elmore wrote: >>>William Hamblen wrote: >>>Cow-orking should be illegal in any civilized country. > >> I thought it already was illegal; orking is fun :-). > >He siad Denver. Neither illegal, nor civilised ;) Oh, pshaw. I'll have to remember to leave my orking utensils at home if I visit Denver. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 06:57:14 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2bfee$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d2d880$0$21321$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <41d424c6$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 12:16:11 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.240 X-Trace: sv3-8eGrPoNXnhfov6YfmGGpBI/VogZHmKQTsnFWu/8eQf1HJdrxT6bQEY7xfBybNfaE4bb/eBsGMLNuHBu!FqOuepkskpXzvq/wbmQe92G8ggEVLBjNLOjm29fKsDxe23G/HEnp2FvLD8C+fXBnRK0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192287 In article <41d424c6$0$21329$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>, Rupert Pigott wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >[SNIP] > >> But I'm not talking about black ice. Snow rained upon and then >> frozen at 0C cannot be picked with a pointy device without >> a male's double-arm power behind it. The heel of a stilleto >> high heel may work. It would take a long time to cover a whole >> driveway. > >Err, that's exactly what people use ice boots/crampons for... >Walking on ice, black, white, loose, frozen snow etc... Was >thinking it may save you a tumble and allow you to be a bit >more comfy as you try to hack the ice to pieces. Sure. However, the ice I was talking about didn't take picking; it was that hard and that thick. It was also the last time I didn't shovel slush off the driveway :-). > >Specialist footwear can work wonders in my experience. It depends on the flavor of the ice. This ice wasn't that flavor. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:04:12 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <4d25072404dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 12:23:10 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.240 X-Trace: sv3-MaT5K32GbmtP7HmKGF4VPOcUEQQzMdDYYfAW+iRnUD88ndZoYg0XuBndMpNIVFQ4cW6sYrAYBLo+RWK!dpSXQXa8AC9A9nUzRpJShDN+aOCMH+JFGczONT5CsRcforgAYNjs5GWOLH04BYCJk1M= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192289 In article <4d25072404dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels wrote: >In article , > wrote: >> Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. >> '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there >> wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, >> my only snow shovel was in the car. > >This year, the joke "Q: how can you tell it is summer in the UK? >A: the rain is warmer" was shown to be the literal truth, but at >least we do not have snow like what you get. The storm of '78 was a one-time event that shut down the state for over a week. We're due for another one of these. The side effect of this storm is that, the next year, the Federal government used oil usage of that week as the metric to hand out federal funds. Mass. had very, very, very little oil usage that week because no cars could driven, no deliveries were made, no trains ran, nothing moved that week. > .. I like our mild >southern winters, and being able to do some work in the garden >in November or December in shirtsleeves. The more winter weather >stories I read on here, the happier I am to be in the UK! For the first time in a number of years, the dudes going to Boston's First Night party won't have to worry about frost bite within two minutes. /BAH ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 07:05:01 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> <4d25072404dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 31 Dec 04 12:23:58 GMT Message-ID: Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.216.240 X-Trace: sv3-VMqhT8KcKQyBC2kCa1HBwheAHRWkTLqqQeBJBZoMkopsLFG2KdjrqBosn9gXoaRb3Z+9UU5sdIzCuzS!yUmzCve+po9I2q+sv9J9HAQ2YgDZJkEXRhUgKrbUb2LQKMd1PAviHtEHiLRf+h+VVVQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.22 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rcn.net!news.rcn.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192290 In article , Alan Balmer wrote: >On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:24:27 +0000 (GMT), Dave Daniels > wrote: > >>In article , >> wrote: >>> Except I got the year wrong; '77 was the year I bought this house. >>> '78 was the year my car became invisible in the driveway; there >>> wasn't even a hump to show where it was. Furthermore, >>> my only snow shovel was in the car. >> >>This year, the joke "Q: how can you tell it is summer in the UK? >>A: the rain is warmer" was shown to be the literal truth, but at >>least we do not have snow like what you get. I like our mild >>southern winters, and being able to do some work in the garden >>in November or December in shirtsleeves. The more winter weather >>stories I read on here, the happier I am to be in the UK! >> >>Dave Daniels > >We have a choice. Here in Phoenix, Arizona, it's mid-sixties (about 17 >C) this time of year, on the average. Or we can go skiing 2 hours >drive north. > JMF's favorite state was New Mexico because one had a choice of weather. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.177.20 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 19:27:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1105039621 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:27:01 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 12:27:01 MST Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192614 On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:08:40 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers, K Williams wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> Larry Elmore wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. >> >> I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. >> > >> >Pity the poor boyfriend or husband that has to wait for snowstorms for >> >*that* ... >> >> That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how >> to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum >> amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway >> like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have >> heated pipes under them. > >Mine cleans close enough that a little black shows through. When the >sun finally comes out the black spots catch it and warm the rest enough >to melt (or sublime?) the rest. A little calcium makes it work all the >faster, though if I don't get some black showing through it turns to >ice. I use a hard yard broom/brush to mix in vehicle droppings and darken the hard snow and ice patches on the (concrete) driveway. Asphalt does not seem to be an option on residential driveways here, possibly due to problems with frost heave during the spring break up. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: K Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The Case of the Outsourced IT Survey (or, The Ugly American answers the phone) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 14:37:44 -0500 Organization: none here Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <_5WdnfYkZdWzySfcRVn-tQ@mpowercom.net> <34rs82xugh.ln2@innovative.iinet.net.au> <41cf3ff3$0$1372$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk> X-Trace: individual.net 5GtIY5Sz8KiPcV0xEeqMYgAUZhllVNVXfV1ySw7p2l7SiiJ8ad X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:192617 In article , Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid says... > On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 09:08:40 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers, K > Williams wrote: > > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> In article , > >> Larry Elmore wrote: > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I'm so glad I'm not a sheep and that my power didn't go off. > >> >> I get to do a blow job today. The weathermen lied yesterday. > >> > > >> >Pity the poor boyfriend or husband that has to wait for snowstorms for > >> >*that* ... > >> > >> That's a side effect of blizzards. I've finally figured out how > >> to get the job done in the least amount of time using a minimum > >> amount of energy. But the blower still doesn't clear the driveway > >> like it shows in the commercials; I swear those driveways have > >> heated pipes under them. > > > >Mine cleans close enough that a little black shows through. When the > >sun finally comes out the black spots catch it and warm the rest enough > >to melt (or sublime?) the rest. A little calcium makes it work all the > >faster, though if I don't get some black showing through it turns to > >ice. > > I use a hard yard broom/brush to mix in vehicle droppings and darken > the hard snow and ice patches on the (concrete) driveway. Asphalt does > not seem to be an option on residential driveways here, possibly due > to problems with frost heave during the spring break up. Concrete isn't used here, rather asphalt is the norm. Frost heaves really gets to the asphalt roads during mud-season, but driveways don't seem to have the same sorts of problems. Perhaps there isn't much load on driveways (no 80K# trucks in my driveway), or the drainage is better. -- Keith