From: jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:31:40 GMT Organization: Group Telecom - a 360networks Company Lines: 74 Message-ID: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: h64-42-245-131.gtcust.grouptelecom.net X-Trace: utornnr1pp.grouptelecom.net 1093026701 455 64.42.245.131 (20 Aug 2004 18:31:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@gt.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:31:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!newsfeed.grouptelecom.net!news.east.grouptelecom.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182331 In the early days of computing, there was considerably more variety in the word lengths of computers than there is now. Because they were built of discrete vacuum tubes or transistors, it was possible to design a computer that had exactly as many bits as needed, but no more, for a specific application. There were many 18-bit computers (three 6-bit characters), including those from DEC. 3c made a 19-bit computer, the DDP-19, and there was also a miniaturized military computer with that word length. The General Electric series of Compatibles-200 had a 20-bit word length. And a company called Advanced Scientific Instruments made computers with a 21-bit word length. So there was a lot of choice. But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 bits? Was there a reason? There were reasons. Two of them, basically. Reason 1: this was about the size needed. The HP-35 pocket calculator, and many of the other scientific pocket calculators that followed it, showed 10 significant digits in its display. This had historically been seen as the precision needed for many important scientific and mathematical problems, and some of the largest tables of mathematical functions were carried out to ten-figure accuracy. Three digits fit into 10 binary bits, and so 40 bits can give twelve digits. This is more than necessary, so one bit can be taken for the sign. These were early computers, and thus they did not have hardware floating-point capability. Later, when hardware floating-point capability was added to computers, this led to some important scientific computers having a 48-bit word length, such as the Control Data 3600 or the AN/FSQ-32. Reason 2: it suited the storage of character data, to the extent required The earliest computers often used a pre-existing digital input-output device for communicating with users. This was a teletypewriter, and originally teletypewriters used 5-level code. They needed 5 binary bits to communicate because there were 26 letters in the alphabet. Using a shift code to make the infrequent switches from letters to digits and punctuation marks provided efficient use of communications channels. Wouldn't a computer convert this to a 6-bit code internally, so that every character would have a distinct representation? That would be true, if the computer were performing manipulations on character data. But these early computers were being used for scientific numerical computations, and so they did not have to store data such as 120 ELM STREET 4867 89TH AVENUE APT 21, 12059 56TH STREET in fields for sorting and the like. And this was also during the very early days of computing, so these computers didn't come with compilers or even assemblers. Thus, character data was just stored as canned sequences of characters to be output... a bit like a file containing a short sound clip, containing a recording of a few words in a human voice, for a computer to play at the appropriate time in a program. It wasn't expected to be processed and manipulated. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### Sender: CStacy@BOHR Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> From: cstacy@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) Message-ID: Lines: 35 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:11:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.163.132.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: trndny02 1093029065 68.163.132.93 (Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:11:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:11:05 EDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trndny02.POSTED!8b1f9295!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182335 >>>>> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:31:40 GMT, John Savard ("John") writes: John> In the early days of computing, there was considerably more John> variety in the word lengths of computers than there is now. John> There were many 18-bit computers (three 6-bit characters), John> including those from DEC. The follow-on computer (PDP-10) in that line used 36-bit words. Addresses on the PDP-10 were remained at 18 bits, but a data word was 36 bits. There were instructions for manipulating either whole-word or half-word quantites. This was for things like pairs of pointers (eg. for efficiently implementing Lisp). John> But more than one important early computer had a word length of John> 40 bits. Why 40 bits? Was there a reason? [...] John> Reason 1: this was about the size needed. [...] John> The HP-35 pocket calculator [...] John> Reason 2: it suited the storage of character data, to the extent required [...] John> teletypewriters used 5-level code. The Lisp Machines (1977-1990) were a series of architectures using a variety of word sizes. These were machines featuring a large address space and tagged memory. (Each word in memory included a few bits that indicated the data type of the object that was stored there.) The word sizes on the various machines were 32, 36, and 40 bits. There was also a super high-performance implementation of the machine in software on the DEC Alpha, which used the underlying 64-bit architecture to emulate the 40-bit machine. (Today, a re-design of such a system using a conventional 64-bit CPU might support at least a 60-bit address space.) ###### From: Leif Harcke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:42:19 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: chirp.stanford.edu X-Trace: news.Stanford.EDU 1093038139 19970 171.64.90.26 (20 Aug 2004 21:42:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.stanford.edu User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!shelby.stanford.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182347 > But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 > bits. Why 40 bits? Was there a reason? Engineers at the bomb labs building copies of the IAS machine and following the paper design in "Preliminary discussion of the logical design of an electronic computing instrument" by Arthur W. Burks, Herman H. Goldstine, and John von Neumann (c. 1946). Gordon Bell makes available on his web page. Refer to Section 2.3: http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/00000113.htm 2.3. It is reasonable at this time to build a machine that can conveniently handle problems several orders of magnitude more complex than are now handled by existing machines, electronic or electro-mechanical. We consequently plan on a fully automatic electronic storage facility of about 4,000 numbers of 40 binary digits each. This corresponds to a precision of 2^(-40) ~ 0.9 x 10^(-12), i.e. of about 12 decimals. We believe that this memory capacity exceeds the capacities required for most problems that one deals with at present by a factor of about 10. The precision is also safely higher than what is required for the great majority of present day problems. In addition, we propose that we have a subsidiary memory of much larger capacity, which is also fully automatic, on some medium such as magnetic wire or tape. The only problem is that the opcodes and I/O formats weren't specified in this report (or the two follow-on reports), so the defense establishment ended up with many incompatible computers with 40 bit word sizes: MANIAC, JOHNNIAC, ORDVAC, ORACLE, ILLIAC, AVIDAC, etc. and the original IAS machine. -Leif ###### Message-ID: <41269502.8B617D7A@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:41:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.132.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1093059708 12.76.132.13 (Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:41:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:41:48 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182363 Leif Harcke wrote: > >> But more than one important early computer had a word length of >> 40 bits. Why 40 bits? Was there a reason? > > Engineers at the bomb labs building copies of the IAS machine and > following the paper design in "Preliminary discussion of the logical > design of an electronic computing instrument" by Arthur W. Burks, > Herman H. Goldstine, and John von Neumann (c. 1946). Gordon Bell > makes available on his web page. Refer to Section 2.3: > > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/00000113.htm I built a machine in 1964 with a word length of 48 bits, of which 40 held the significand in 10 excess-3 decimal digits, and 8 held the exponent. The only data format was a floating point number. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Scott Peterson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:21:31 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> Reply-To: scottp4.removethistoreply@mindspring.com References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182373 jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > >But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 >bits? Was there a reason? I think it was the 1401 that had a variable word size. My father had a story about when they were benchmarking it against the early 360's. One of the benchmarks they snuck in was to multiply a 1000 digit number by another 1000 digit number. Just a few lines of code on the 1401. A major computing effort on the 360. Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a 60-bit word. Scott Peterson -- Serious error. All shortcuts have disappeared. Screen. Mind. Both are blank. 292/586 ###### From: arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:38:45 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 43 Message-ID: <0q0ei09peg60rldurultj18l6rg4ocfn6l@4ax.com> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr11.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1093077582 4164 209.100.226.11 (21 Aug 2004 08:39:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:39:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182375 On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:21:31 -0700, Scott Peterson wrote: >jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > >> >>But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 >>bits? Was there a reason? > >I think it was the 1401 that had a variable word size. The 1401 was a character machine. It had no word. Just fields. >My father had a story about when they were benchmarking it >against the early 360's. One of the benchmarks they snuck in >was to multiply a 1000 digit number by another 1000 digit number. Can't. The 1401 had a max of 16,000 chars of memory. That result would need 1,000,000 chars of memory. Example: 999 * 999 = 998001 9999 * 9999 = 99980001 99999 * 99999 = 9999800001 A 100 by 100 digit multiply would be possible on a larger 1401, but I wonder how long it would take. (looks up timing formula) 585.465 ms (milliseconds) If the 1000 x 1000 were possible, it would take 57,603.615 ms >Just a few lines of code on the 1401. One. Example: @ AAA BBB Where AAA & BBB are the addresses of the fields. >A major computing effort on the 360. Yes. -- Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### From: jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:59:04 GMT Organization: Group Telecom - a 360networks Company Lines: 24 Message-ID: <41275436.1148949@news.ecn.ab.ca> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: h64-42-245-131.gtcust.grouptelecom.net X-Trace: utornnr1pp.grouptelecom.net 1093096746 14200 64.42.245.131 (21 Aug 2004 13:59:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@gt.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 13:59:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!newsfeed.grouptelecom.net!news.east.grouptelecom.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182399 On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:21:31 -0700, Scott Peterson wrote, in part: >Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a >60-bit word. I remember them. The General Electric machines had a 20-bit word. It is difficult for me to account for those machines, except as having no more and no less bits than were needed in the latter case, and, in the former case, having no more and no less 6-bit characters than were needed. The idea that the word length itself has to be elegant or symmetrical, or satisfy some profound purpose, was not shared by all computer designers. But some felt that nothing would do but a power of two (telling the story of _that_, deep within the Octoword or Octaword thread, when someone asked of the importance of the Whirlwind in this connection, is what led me to make the original post in this thread) and others could not resist the beauty of the 24-bit or 48-bit word, which unites the 6-bit character with the 4-bit packed decimal digit. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <41275436.1148949@news.ecn.ab.ca> Reply-To: jhaynes@alumni.uark.edu Organization: University of Arkansas Alumni X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:36:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.226.60.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1093113391 4.226.60.30 (Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:36:31 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:36:31 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!c4a26796!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182415 In article <41275436.1148949@news.ecn.ab.ca>, John Savard wrote: >The idea that the word length itself has to be elegant or symmetrical, or satisfy >some profound purpose, was not shared by all computer designers. > "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." New Testament, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word all right, but it didn't contain a fixed number of bits." R. S. Barton -- jhhaynes at earthlink dot net ###### From: jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:53:23 GMT Organization: Group Telecom - a 360networks Company Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4127989b.6493446@news.ecn.ab.ca> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <41275436.1148949@news.ecn.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: h64-42-245-134.gtcust.grouptelecom.net X-Trace: utornnr1pp.grouptelecom.net 1093114408 8153 64.42.245.134 (21 Aug 2004 18:53:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@gt.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:53:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!news.alt.net!newsfeed.grouptelecom.net!news.east.grouptelecom.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182418 On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:36:31 GMT, haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) wrote, in part: >In article <41275436.1148949@news.ecn.ab.ca>, >John Savard wrote: >>The idea that the word length itself has to be elegant or symmetrical, or satisfy >>some profound purpose, was not shared by all computer designers. >"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word >was God." > New Testament, John 1:1 >"In the beginning was the word all right, but it didn't contain a fixed >number of bits." > R. S. Barton In principio erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum. En archi in o Logos, kai o Logos in pros ton Theon, kai Theos in o Logos. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:31:59 +0100 Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> Reply-To: Nick Spalding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de DJCzp5ZyBHO3c8CNH2svyQ/TpLk8AE3F6nIDWQEWcazEqDwF8= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/2.0.5.5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182425 Scott Peterson wrote, in <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com>: > jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > > > > >But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 > >bits? Was there a reason? > > I think it was the 1401 that had a variable word size. My father had > a story about when they were benchmarking it against the early 360's. > One of the benchmarks they snuck in was to multiply a 1000 digit > number by another 1000 digit number. Just a few lines of code on the > 1401. A major computing effort on the 360. An impossibility in a 1401 which was limited to 16000 characters total. A 1000x1000 product would be 1000000 characters long. You could just about get away with 100x100. > Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a > 60-bit word. > > Scott Peterson -- Nick Spalding ###### From: David R Brooks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 06:57:07 +0800 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <0q0ei09peg60rldurultj18l6rg4ocfn6l@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.155.35 X-Trace: 1093129047 per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au 22820 203.59.155.35 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.42.15.2!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182432 But (as your examples demonstrate) the product of a M-digit & a N-digit number is a M+N digit number, not a M*N digit one. So the result would be a 2000 digit number, fitting easily in a 16000 char store. (I'm not saying it would be fast :) arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com wrote: :On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:21:31 -0700, Scott Peterson : wrote: : :>jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: :> :>> :>>But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 :>>bits? Was there a reason? :> :>I think it was the 1401 that had a variable word size. :The 1401 was a character machine. It had no word. Just fields. : :>My father had a story about when they were benchmarking it :>against the early 360's. One of the benchmarks they snuck in :>was to multiply a 1000 digit number by another 1000 digit number. :Can't. The 1401 had a max of 16,000 chars of memory. That result :would need 1,000,000 chars of memory. :Example: : 999 * 999 = 998001 : 9999 * 9999 = 99980001 :99999 * 99999 = 9999800001 : :A 100 by 100 digit multiply would be possible on a larger 1401, but I :wonder how long it would take. (looks up timing formula) :585.465 ms (milliseconds) :If the 1000 x 1000 were possible, it would take 57,603.615 ms : :>Just a few lines of code on the 1401. :One. :Example: :@ AAA BBB :Where AAA & BBB are the addresses of the fields. : :>A major computing effort on the 360. :Yes. : : ###### From: arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:34:25 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <0q0ei09peg60rldurultj18l6rg4ocfn6l@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr62.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1093149328 8785 209.100.226.62 (22 Aug 2004 04:35:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 04:35:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182453 On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 06:57:07 +0800, David R Brooks wrote: >But (as your examples demonstrate) the product of a M-digit & a >N-digit number is a M+N digit number, not a M*N digit one. Yes, so I see. I must have been sleeping. > >So the result would be a 2000 digit number, fitting easily in a 16000 >char store. (I'm not saying it would be fast :) 57.6 seconds, if I did the math correctly. -- Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <41275436.1148949@news.ecn.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 04 10:30:50 GMT Lines: 29 Message-ID: <41288839$0$21750$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=aFMB4i;Fg0ogAYX5i\dYfj0R]m=BkYWIg:6bU3OT9S9jIcd=cLb@VN`I3O8BVgV^Pid:e;`=T5`Tc_0J@U_bNMJh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182471 In article <41275436.1148949@news.ecn.ab.ca>, jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: >On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:21:31 -0700, Scott Peterson > wrote, in part: > >>Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a >>60-bit word. > >I remember them. The General Electric machines had a 20-bit word. > >It is difficult for me to account for those machines, except as having no more >and no less bits than were needed in the latter case, and, in the former case, >having no more and no less 6-bit characters than were needed. > >The idea that the word length itself has to be elegant or symmetrical, or satisfy >some profound purpose, was not shared by all computer designers. Ptui. ;-) Elegance and symmetrical would only have been a description in hindsight. The key is if those poor gals could manufacture them by hand. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <0q0ei09peg60rldurultj18l6rg4ocfn6l@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 22 Aug 04 10:32:54 GMT Lines: 14 Message-ID: <412888b4$0$21750$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=O>;]nl1>ljCXRnZBHDoMYH0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JIcd=cLb@VN@I3O8BVgV^PId:e;`=T5`TC_0J@U_bNMJH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!diablo.voicenet.com!199.184.165.233.MISMATCH!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182472 In article , David R Brooks wrote: Honey, don't toppost. Note that data usually wasn't "stored" in memory but temporarily punched, poked, or displayed. One had to also allow room for the code. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Michael Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <0q0ei09peg60rldurultj18l6rg4ocfn6l@4ax.com> <412888b4$0$21750$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:04:54 EST Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:04:23 -0400 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch !solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfe ed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!roc.nntpserver.com.POSTED!7da21ee0!not-for -mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182546 On Sun, 22 Aug 04 10:32:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >Honey, don't toppost. Shhhhhhhh! We don't want that bloody DRS character over here... Mike http://www.corestore.org 'As I walk along these shores I am the history within' ###### From: Scott Peterson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:56:28 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10iiqlsqtqbld78@news.supernews.com> Reply-To: scottp4.removethistoreply@mindspring.com References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <0q0ei09peg60rldurultj18l6rg4ocfn6l@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore. univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04 !sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182557 arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com wrote: >A 100 by 100 digit multiply would be possible on a larger 1401, but I >wonder how long it would take. (looks up timing formula) >585.465 ms (milliseconds) >If the 1000 x 1000 were possible, it would take 57,603.615 ms It probably was a 100 digits. It's been a long time since he told me that story. . Scott Peterson -- Just when I've thought you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talking. ~ Hank Hill "King Of The Hill 508/586 ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <0q0ei09peg60rldurultj18l6rg4ocfn6l@4ax.com> <412888b4$0$21750$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 04 10:47:42 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4129ddb6$0$21742$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=\m8R]lkj41fFVUd7_<1i0l0R]m=BkYWIg:6bU3OT9S9jCC\C?SdQ9SgCoL\bWnA3:gJ _AWEELNZIl>C5OJ=2C6Qi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!swi tch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!proxad.net!proxad.net!newsho sting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!diablo.voicenet.com!199.184.165.233.MISMATC H!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182591 In article , Michael Ross wrote: >On Sun, 22 Aug 04 10:32:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>Honey, don't toppost. > >Shhhhhhhh! We don't want that bloody DRS character over here... Heh. It took me a while to recall who the hell he was. He'd dirty his britches if he had seen this post of mine. furnace doctor's here gotta go. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: elliem@klynk.com (Cal Gardner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: 23 Aug 2004 16:10:11 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <13595fd4.0408231510.4af89832@posting.google.com> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.22.3.77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1093302611 2661 127.0.0.1 (23 Aug 2004 23:10:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:10:11 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182670 Nick Spalding wrote in message news:... > Scott Peterson wrote, in <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com>: > > > jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > > > > > > > >But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 > > >bits? Was there a reason? > > > > I think it was the 1401 that had a variable word size. My father had > > a story about when they were benchmarking it against the early 360's. > > One of the benchmarks they snuck in was to multiply a 1000 digit > > number by another 1000 digit number. Just a few lines of code on the > > 1401. A major computing effort on the 360. > > An impossibility in a 1401 which was limited to 16000 characters total. > A 1000x1000 product would be 1000000 characters long. You could just > about get away with 100x100. IIRC the way multiply was implemented on the 1401 300 characters would be all that would be required. Again, IIRC the 1401 used a grade-school multiply technique. The multiplicand had n 0 digits prepended to it before the word mark. And of course the 100 digits for the multipler. Cal > > > Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a > > 60-bit word. > > > > Scott Peterson ###### From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:24:11 +0100 Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <13595fd4.0408231510.4af89832@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Nick Spalding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de GYN7IhpOkr2rCv+GQZR9GgfYZxz98dfQcKJY4ZFmrp4ja0o5k= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/2.0.5.5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182707 Cal Gardner wrote, in <13595fd4.0408231510.4af89832@posting.google.com>: > Nick Spalding wrote in message news:... > > Scott Peterson wrote, in <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com>: > > > > > jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 > > > >bits? Was there a reason? > > > > > > I think it was the 1401 that had a variable word size. My father had > > > a story about when they were benchmarking it against the early 360's. > > > One of the benchmarks they snuck in was to multiply a 1000 digit > > > number by another 1000 digit number. Just a few lines of code on the > > > 1401. A major computing effort on the 360. > > > > An impossibility in a 1401 which was limited to 16000 characters total. > > A 1000x1000 product would be 1000000 characters long. You could just > > about get away with 100x100. > > IIRC the way multiply was implemented on the 1401 300 characters would be > all that would be required. Again, IIRC the 1401 used a grade-school multiply > technique. The multiplicand had n 0 digits prepended to it before the word > mark. And of course the 100 digits for the multipler. Whatever about the internals the product of two 100 digit numbers is going to occupy 10,000 digits. Many 1401s did without paying for the multiply/divide feature instruction anyway, using subroutines when required. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: arargh407NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 04:17:39 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <13595fd4.0408231510.4af89832@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr74.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1093339131 10117 209.100.226.74 (24 Aug 2004 09:18:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:18:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.moat.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder2.hal-mli.net!news.mbo.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182711 On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:24:11 +0100, Nick Spalding wrote: >Cal Gardner wrote, in <13595fd4.0408231510.4af89832@posting.google.com>: > >> Nick Spalding wrote in message news:... >> > Scott Peterson wrote, in <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com>: >> > >> > > jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: >> > > >> > > > >> > > >But more than one important early computer had a word length of 40 bits. Why 40 >> > > >bits? Was there a reason? >> > > >> > > I think it was the 1401 that had a variable word size. My father had >> > > a story about when they were benchmarking it against the early 360's. >> > > One of the benchmarks they snuck in was to multiply a 1000 digit >> > > number by another 1000 digit number. Just a few lines of code on the >> > > 1401. A major computing effort on the 360. >> > >> > An impossibility in a 1401 which was limited to 16000 characters total. >> > A 1000x1000 product would be 1000000 characters long. You could just >> > about get away with 100x100. >> >> IIRC the way multiply was implemented on the 1401 300 characters would be >> all that would be required. Again, IIRC the 1401 used a grade-school multiply >> technique. The multiplicand had n 0 digits prepended to it before the word >> mark. And of course the 100 digits for the multipler. > >Whatever about the internals the product of two 100 digit numbers is going to >occupy 10,000 digits. Many 1401s did without paying for the multiply/divide >feature instruction anyway, using subroutines when required. My understanding is the subroutine is functionally equivalent to the hardware, just a different calling sequence. -- Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:57:59 +0100 (BST) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: <20040824.2057.57476snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <13595fd4.0408231510.4af89832@posting.google.com> X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1093382667 6931 158.152.92.150 (24 Aug 2004 21:24:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: SNews 1.31+mods(jlw030122/386) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!194.159.246.34.MISMATCH!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!dsl.co.uk!bhk Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182809 On Tuesday, in article spalding@iol.ie "Nick Spalding" wrote: > Whatever about the internals the product of two 100 digit numbers is going to > occupy 10,000 digits. Many 1401s did without paying for the multiply/divide > feature instruction anyway, using subroutines when required. No it isn't; it was already recognized further up the thread that multiplying two 100-digit numbers requires AT MOST only 200 digits to hold the answer. This remains true no matter how the multiplication is effected. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:44:31 -0500 From: "Marc W. Howard" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:44:49 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.152.204 X-Trace: sv3-xdRDXUf9ov8WQnib3/cPM2oVbw91DeFmuxKWc4pPYc9cLQLs37UeCJXqa0XDnwBK7jcknqICMwBLnBx!EEeFrop7esRbgF/Ga2YanV94xTF45j9OWoiHSMimhFbaFxapzRT/2iUMtG6H/zv3DFRKemK4YcJy!CkchYgU28x+9ucZR4tE4ZL9J0jCB X-Complaints-To: abuse@surfnetusa.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@surfnetusa.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.surfnetusa.com!news.surfnetusa.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182856 "Scott Peterson" wrote in message news:10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com... > jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a > 60-bit word. > > Scott Peterson And yet another one was the Adage Ambilog and AGT series of computers. 30 bits, 1's complement math, and yes, capable of infinite (and inescapable, execpt via hard reset) address indirection. I never see anyone mention these machines although I know that NASA and Exxon (among others) had them. They were mainly used in graphics; they had a vector display driven by an array (up to 4 by 3 as I recall) of multiplying DACs which allowed for 3D (2D on low end models) display with perspective divide and intensity depth cueing. The software was rather innovative as well. The assembler could be modified at run time by the file it was assembling. The text editor was very emacs-like and the Fortran IV compiler even supported in-line assembler. It's the only computer I've ever used that had foot-pedals. Marc W. Howard ###### From: glen herrmannsfeldt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> In-Reply-To: <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.18.177.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s54 1093411363 24.18.177.15 (Wed, 25 Aug 2004 05:22:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 05:22:43 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 05:22:43 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s54.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182862 Marc W. Howard wrote: (snip) > And yet another one was the Adage Ambilog and AGT series of computers. 30 > bits, 1's complement math, and yes, capable of infinite (and inescapable, > execpt via hard reset) address indirection. There are stories of an IBM machine that could loop so tightly that even power on reset wouldn't get out of it, using an EXecute instruction to execute itself. Only a magnet inside the core memory box could break out of it. That is supposed to be the reason behind the S/360 execute exception. -- glen ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:07:04 +0100 (BST) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1093459962 13760 158.152.92.150 (25 Aug 2004 18:52:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: SNews 1.31+mods(jlw030122/386) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!194.159.246.34.MISMATCH!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!dsl.co.uk!bhk Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182949 On Tuesday, in article <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> marc.howard@ieee.org "Marc W. Howard" wrote: > It's the only computer I've ever used that had foot-pedals. "Ooh", thought I to myself, "I've used a computer with a foot-pedal". After the requisite brain-racking, I've remembered: it was on the 928 vector graphics display on an Elliott 905; the foot-pedal meant that the light-pen was supposed to be looking at something significant. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." ###### From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:18:12 +0100 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <13595fd4.0408231510.4af89832@posting.google.com> <20040824.2057.57476snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: Nick Spalding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 8HYamlhNGGiYqCbOjxXLoAje6bC3D8BjGWQMrlfEvUvRvTOSA= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/2.0.5.5 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182876 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote, in <20040824.2057.57476snz@dsl.co.uk>: > On Tuesday, in article > spalding@iol.ie > "Nick Spalding" wrote: > > > Whatever about the internals the product of two 100 digit numbers is going to > > occupy 10,000 digits. Many 1401s did without paying for the multiply/divide > > feature instruction anyway, using subroutines when required. > > No it isn't; it was already recognized further up the thread that > multiplying two 100-digit numbers requires AT MOST only 200 digits to > hold the answer. This remains true no matter how the multiplication is > effected. Quite correct. Withdraws with tail between legs... -- Nick Spalding ###### From: "Gary A. Gorgen" Organization: Tunxis Design Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> In-Reply-To: <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.126.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s03 1093435044 24.7.126.247 (Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:57:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:57:24 GMT Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:57:24 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s03.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182889 Marc W. Howard wrote: > "Scott Peterson" wrote in message > news:10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com... > >>jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: > >>Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a >>60-bit word. >> >> Scott Peterson > And yet another one was the Adage Ambilog and AGT series of > computers. 30 > bits, 1's complement math, and yes, capable of infinite (and inescapable, > execpt via hard reset) address indirection. > I never see anyone mention these machines although I know that NASA > and > Exxon (among others) had them. They were mainly used in graphics; they had > a vector display driven by an array (up to 4 by 3 as I recall) of > multiplying DACs which allowed for 3D (2D on low end models) display with > perspective divide and intensity depth cueing. > One of the systems I used to build, used Adage display processors. Never did much with the Adage, myself. It was connected to an I/O channel, & all I did was talk to it. SEL used an Adage system for a flight simulator that was in their booth at the SJCC & FJCC. If you wanted to find the SEL booth, just look for the long line. > The software was rather innovative as well. The assembler could be modified > at run time by the file it was assembling. The text editor was very > emacs-like and the Fortran IV compiler even supported in-line assembler. > It's the only computer I've ever used that had foot-pedals. > Marc W. Howard > -- Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS" tunxis@comcast.net | Tunxis Design Inc. | Cupertino, Ca. 95014 ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 04 12:16:05 GMT Lines: 44 Message-ID: <412c9584$0$21741$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=0Z=bN?UIKUCJ], "Gary A. Gorgen" wrote: > > >Marc W. Howard wrote: >> "Scott Peterson" wrote in message >> news:10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com... >> >>>jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: >> >> >>>Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a >>>60-bit word. >>> >>> Scott Peterson >> >> >> And yet another one was the Adage Ambilog and AGT series of computers. 30 >> bits, 1's complement math, and yes, capable of infinite (and inescapable, >> execpt via hard reset) address indirection. >> >> I never see anyone mention these machines although I know that NASA and >> Exxon (among others) had them. They were mainly used in graphics; they had >> a vector display driven by an array (up to 4 by 3 as I recall) of >> multiplying DACs which allowed for 3D (2D on low end models) display with >> perspective divide and intensity depth cueing. >> > >One of the systems I used to build, used Adage display processors. >Never did much with the Adage, myself. >It was connected to an I/O channel, & all I did was talk to it. Did whispering sweet nothings in its ear make it work? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Gary A. Gorgen" Organization: Tunxis Design Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <412c9584$0$21741$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> In-Reply-To: <412c9584$0$21741$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 67 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.126.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s01 1093442338 24.7.126.247 (Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:58:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:58:58 GMT Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:58:59 GMT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s01.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182919 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > "Gary A. Gorgen" wrote: > >> >>Marc W. Howard wrote: >> >>> "Scott Peterson" wrote >>> in > message > >>>news:10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com... >>> >>> >>>>jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a >>>>60-bit word. >>>> >>>> Scott Peterson >>> >>> >>> And yet another one was the Adage Ambilog and AGT series of >>> computers. > 30 > >>> bits, 1's complement math, and yes, capable of infinite (and > inescapable, > >>>execpt via hard reset) address indirection. >>> >>>I never see anyone mention these machines although I know that NASA and >>> Exxon (among others) had them. They were mainly used in graphics; >>> they > had > >>>a vector display driven by an array (up to 4 by 3 as I recall) of >>> multiplying DACs which allowed for 3D (2D on low end models) >>> display > with > >>>perspective divide and intensity depth cueing. >>> >> >>One of the systems I used to build, used Adage display processors. >>Never did much with the Adage, myself. >>It was connected to an I/O channel, & all I did was talk to it. > Did whispering sweet nothings in its ear make it work? > It just ignores that. It takes, "!(*@($@%$%&$!@#@$)%%%> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: 25 Aug 04 12:16:23 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-646.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182987 In article <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com>, marc.howard@ieee.org (Marc W. Howard) writes: >"Scott Peterson" wrote in >message news:10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com... >> Another one you might want to remember is the CDC machines that had a >> 60-bit word. > >And yet another one was the Adage Ambilog and AGT series of computers. >30 bits, 1's complement math, and yes, capable of infinite (and >inescapable, execpt via hard reset) address indirection. > >I never see anyone mention these machines although I know that NASA and >Exxon (among others) had them. The University of B.C. had an AGT. One day our numerical analysis prof took us up there and had it doing fancy plots in the context of the course. (I say "up" because it was on the top floor of the civil engineering building where the 7044 had been before it got replaced by the 360/67, which went into the basement.) Most people's interest in the AGT was in playing the very nice version of Spacewar which could be downloaded from the 360. At first you could log off the 360 and play it forever for free - they soon put a stop to that by modifying it so that you had to be logged in to MTS for it to run. One day I came across a reference manual and figured out how to toggle in enough instructions through the front panel to make patterns ripple across the lights. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: 25 Aug 04 12:30:50 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <1393.733T2537T7505802@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-647.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed2.orangenet.dk!newsfeed.orangenet.dk!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182988 In article , gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) writes: >There are stories of an IBM machine that could loop so tightly >that even power on reset wouldn't get out of it, using an EXecute >instruction to execute itself. Only a magnet inside the core >memory box could break out of it. That is supposed to be the >reason behind the S/360 execute exception. From a section labeled "Computer Pranks" in Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib": ZAP THE 94 One of the meaner pranks was a program that ran on the old 7094. It could fit on one card (in binary), and put the computer into an inescapable loop. Unfortunately the usual "STOP" button was disabled by this program, so to stop the program one would eventually have to pull the big emergency button. This burnt out all the main registers. (Has anyone seen this? Was it as nasty as he says?) He goes on to mention another program for the 7094 which displayed messages on the console lights, Times Square style. It must have taken a lot of twiddling to ensure all the registers and flags were set and reset as required. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: Glen Herrmannsfeldt Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:24:24 -0700 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <1393.733T2537T7505802@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.208.140.139 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: gnus01.u.washington.edu 1093479718 22021 128.208.140.139 (26 Aug 2004 00:21:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 00:21:58 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <1393.733T2537T7505802@kltpzyxm.invalid> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:182994 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article , gah@ugcs.caltech.edu > (glen herrmannsfeldt) writes: >>There are stories of an IBM machine that could loop so tightly >>that even power on reset wouldn't get out of it, using an EXecute >>instruction to execute itself. Only a magnet inside the core >>memory box could break out of it. That is supposed to be the >>reason behind the S/360 execute exception. (snip) > One of the meaner pranks was a program that ran on the > old 7094. It could fit on one card (in binary), and > put the computer into an inescapable loop. Unfortunately > the usual "STOP" button was disabled by this program, > so to stop the program one would eventually have to pull > the big emergency button. This burnt out all the main > registers. You mean the registers weren't magnetic core, or it burned out the core memory? The execute problem occurs because the program counter is in magnetic core, and is not cleared on power up. I don't know if it restarts the indirect loop, or continues it, but in any case it is supposed to loop. 7094 sounds about right, just before S/360. -- glen ###### User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular From: Mike Hore Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <1393.733T2537T7505802@kltpzyxm.invalid> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:49:42 EST Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:17:23 +0930 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!hydra.nntpserver.com.POSTED!b18aadfb!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183002 Glen Herrmannsfeldt wrote: > > Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> In article , gah@ugcs.caltech.edu >> (glen herrmannsfeldt) writes: > >>> There are stories of an IBM machine that could loop so tightly >>> that even power on reset wouldn't get out of it, using an EXecute >>> instruction to execute itself. Only a magnet inside the core >>> memory box could break out of it. That is supposed to be the >>> reason behind the S/360 execute exception. > > (snip) > >> One of the meaner pranks was a program that ran on the >> old 7094. It could fit on one card (in binary), and >> put the computer into an inescapable loop. Unfortunately >> the usual "STOP" button was disabled by this program, >> so to stop the program one would eventually have to pull >> the big emergency button. This burnt out all the main >> registers. > > You mean the registers weren't magnetic core, or it burned out > the core memory? > > The execute problem occurs because the program counter is in > magnetic core, and is not cleared on power up. I don't know > if it restarts the indirect loop, or continues it, but in > any case it is supposed to loop. 7094 sounds about > right, just before S/360. That can't be completely right, since the PC on the 7094 was a register, not in core memory. But probably an XEC executing itself would loop and need something pretty drastic to stop it. Cheers, Mike. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Hore mikehoreREM@OVE.invalid.icasolution.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: Té Rowan Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:24:19 +0000 Organization: Word used by Space Aliens Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp162-45.as.mi.is Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.simnet.is 1093497638 30301 217.151.162.45 (26 Aug 2004 05:20:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@simnet.is NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:20:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.86!ash.uu.net!news.simnet.is!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183014 Saith Marc W. Howard: [snip] >It's the only computer I've ever used that had foot-pedals. Well... if you look inside appropriate shops, you should be able to find some with not just foot pedals but at least two keyboards as well. I'll leave it to you, however, to emulate Klaus Wunderlich. -- Reynir Stefánsson (reynirhs@mi.is) ###### From: mwojcik@newsguy.com (Michael Wojcik) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: 26 Aug 2004 19:03:15 GMT Organization: Micro Focus International Ltd Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: mwojcik@newsguy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p-432.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: xrn 9.00 Originator: mww@sen Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!mww Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183107 In article <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: > > "Ooh", thought I to myself, "I've used a computer with a foot-pedal". > > After the requisite brain-racking, I've remembered: it was on the 928 > vector graphics display on an Elliott 905; the foot-pedal meant that the > light-pen was supposed to be looking at something significant. Ah, the old point-and-stomp interface. Damn Xerox / Apple / Microsoft conspiracy buried that one, too. (Though I vaguely recall some commercially-available foot-operated "mice" from the early years of MS Windows, when there was more mass- market interest in alternative input devices.) -- Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@microfocus.com We are subdued to what we work in. (E M Forster) ###### From: iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:56:01 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <412e4d6b.4569171@News.individual.net> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de Qz6Rvj6OqFV1xOg5y/CvDgc6KYbCq4KNJ5x02/2yiWEkR76jI= X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183120 On 26 Aug 2004 19:03:15 GMT, mwojcik@newsguy.com (Michael Wojcik) wrote: > >In article <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >> >> "Ooh", thought I to myself, "I've used a computer with a foot-pedal". >> >> After the requisite brain-racking, I've remembered: it was on the 928 >> vector graphics display on an Elliott 905; the foot-pedal meant that the >> light-pen was supposed to be looking at something significant. > >Ah, the old point-and-stomp interface. Damn Xerox / Apple / Microsoft >conspiracy buried that one, too. > >(Though I vaguely recall some commercially-available foot-operated >"mice" from the early years of MS Windows, when there was more mass- >market interest in alternative input devices.) ISTR a "mouse" worn as a headband with foot-operated buttons. You moved the cursor by turning your head (pointing with your nose?) and 'clicked" with your foot. Your hands never had to leave the keyboard. Never tried it for myself, though... Regards, -=Dave -- Change is inevitable, progress is not. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <1393.733T2537T7505802@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: jhaynes@alumni.uark.edu Organization: University of Arkansas Alumni X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:51:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.227.2.99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1093557071 4.227.2.99 (Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:51:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:51:11 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!c4a26796!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183126 In article <1393.733T2537T7505802@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >He goes on to mention another program for the 7094 which displayed >messages on the console lights, Times Square style. It must have >taken a lot of twiddling to ensure all the registers and flags >were set and reset as required. > This reminds me of a story told by the late Bob Bemer. Back in the days of punched card machines some of them had panels of lights. A colleague of his had a punched card deck he could run through the machine that would cause it to spell out "F**K YOU" one letter at a time. He brought in some of the keypunch operators and showed them his creation - it was some time before one of themn realized what it was spelling out, and shrieked. He said, "now that's what I call a calculated insult." -- jhhaynes at earthlink dot net ###### From: "Dennis Ritchie" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:29:07 -0000 Organization: Bell Labs Lines: 42 Message-ID: <2p81rdFhui3oU1@uni-berlin.de> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de hJ0wMM2F+v/iuBguK9OzggurqBs6okZRs0SJlQtHPcyiDIsKWV X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183155 "glen herrmannsfeldt" wrote in message news:DmVWc.40151$9d6.14542@attbi_s54... > Marc W. Howard wrote: .... > There are stories of an IBM machine that could loop so tightly > that even power on reset wouldn't get out of it, using an EXecute > instruction to execute itself. Only a magnet inside the core > memory box could break out of it. That is supposed to be the > reason behind the S/360 execute exception. The details of EXE * probably vary between models, but it did seem to be a loop unstoppable by interrupt or even the halt button. I've heard the story that accessing the core memory for the instruction on every cycle could damage (by overheating) the core, but I think that a power-off would be sufficient. Pulling the emergency switch was counseled against, but certainly not invariably damaging. I think that manipulations on the channel console could also intervene successfully without power-off. A similar game, one that I actually tried, depended on a peculiarity of the PDP 11/45 and maybe the 11/70: the SPL (set priority) instruction suppressed interrupts for one cycle, even if you were in user mode, in which the CPU priority change didn't happen. So the idea was to completely fill user memory with SPL instructions so the CPU could not be interrupted (say by the clock). I never figured out an instruction sequence that would do this; there was always one remaining spot. Instead, I put a bunch of SPLs into a file, and read this in over the rump of the program. This actually worked, and better than expected: the microcode also stopped looking at the halt switch. The first time I think I had to turn off the power, but it turned out that simultaneously pressing "halt" and "restart" broke the loop. Dennis ###### From: marc.howard@ieee.org (Marc W. Howard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: 27 Aug 2004 12:22:25 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1ada726.0408271122.2ac50ef8@posting.google.com> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.1.16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1093634546 11980 127.0.0.1 (27 Aug 2004 19:22:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:22:26 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183244 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:<1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid>... > ... > The University of B.C. had an AGT. One day our numerical analysis > prof took us up there and had it doing fancy plots in the context of > the course. (I say "up" because it was on the top floor of the civil > engineering building where the 7044 had been before it got replaced > by the 360/67, which went into the basement.) > > Most people's interest in the AGT was in playing the very nice > version of Spacewar which could be downloaded from the 360. At > first you could log off the 360 and play it forever for free - > they soon put a stop to that by modifying it so that you had to > be logged in to MTS for it to run. > > One day I came across a reference manual and figured out how to > toggle in enough instructions through the front panel to make > patterns ripple across the lights. Interesting you should mention that. In the sci-fi cult classic movie "Dark Star" there is a scene where one of the actors is asking the ship's computer how to talk a bomb out of self detonation while it (the bomb) is still attached to the ship (you have to see the movie to really understand this). Anyway, shots of the "computer" include an IBM 029 keypunch, a Heathkit resistor substitution box and the front panel of an AGT-10/30/50 with a pattern rippling through the lights. Marc W. Howard ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: 27 Aug 04 13:44:03 -0800 Organization: http://newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <1756.735T193T8243886@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid> <1ada726.0408271122.2ac50ef8@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-995.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone.bc.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183261 In article <1ada726.0408271122.2ac50ef8@posting.google.com>, marc.howard@ieee.org (Marc W. Howard) writes: >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message >news:<1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid>... [re: AGT] >> One day I came across a reference manual and figured out how to >> toggle in enough instructions through the front panel to make >> patterns ripple across the lights. > >Interesting you should mention that. In the sci-fi cult classic movie >"Dark Star" there is a scene where one of the actors is asking the >ship's computer how to talk a bomb out of self detonation while it >(the bomb) is still attached to the ship (you have to see the movie to >really understand this). Anyway, shots of the "computer" include an >IBM 029 keypunch, a Heathkit resistor substitution box and the front >panel of an AGT-10/30/50 with a pattern rippling through the lights. I've _got_ to dig up a copy of that movie again. It was a lot of fun (and one of John Carpenter's early efforts, for you trivia buffs). I do have the Alan Dean Foster novelization somewhere. I remember the 029 keyboard, but I'll have to look for the other hardware bits. Wasn't the fellow delivering the message from Earth standing in front of a bank of Honeywell tape drives? Or am I thinking of Lily Tomlin, who punched a button on a Honeywell front panel (200 series?) and watched all the lights go out while doing her "we don't care" phone company ad on Saturday Night Live? ("There - we just lost Peoria.") -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid> <1ada726.0408271122.2ac50ef8@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 04 12:07:23 GMT Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4131d9a2$0$19706$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=\m4mi7CWLQbmjKjPmAkhZc0R]m=BkYWIg:6bU3OT9S9j<0?<0M6J?OiI3O8BVgV^Pi:iQ`b_k[Ufj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183364 In article <1ada726.0408271122.2ac50ef8@posting.google.com>, marc.howard@ieee.org (Marc W. Howard) wrote: >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:<1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid>... >> ... >> The University of B.C. had an AGT. One day our numerical analysis >> prof took us up there and had it doing fancy plots in the context of >> the course. (I say "up" because it was on the top floor of the civil >> engineering building where the 7044 had been before it got replaced >> by the 360/67, which went into the basement.) >> >> Most people's interest in the AGT was in playing the very nice >> version of Spacewar which could be downloaded from the 360. At >> first you could log off the 360 and play it forever for free - >> they soon put a stop to that by modifying it so that you had to >> be logged in to MTS for it to run. >> >> One day I came across a reference manual and figured out how to >> toggle in enough instructions through the front panel to make >> patterns ripple across the lights. > >Interesting you should mention that. In the sci-fi cult classic movie >"Dark Star" there is a scene where one of the actors is asking the >ship's computer how to talk a bomb out of self detonation while it >(the bomb) is still attached to the ship (you have to see the movie to >really understand this). I do? It sure sounds like a design spec review to me. > .. Anyway, shots of the "computer" include an >IBM 029 keypunch, a Heathkit resistor substitution box and the front >panel of an AGT-10/30/50 with a pattern rippling through the lights. I bet learning about the prop guy's background would explain it. :-) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jsavard@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:44:40 GMT Organization: Group Telecom - a 360networks Company Lines: 10 Message-ID: <4132bea9.19491232@news.ecn.ab.ca> References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <1635.733T1197T7364406@kltpzyxm.invalid> <1ada726.0408271122.2ac50ef8@posting.google.com> <1756.735T193T8243886@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: h64-42-245-152.gtcust.grouptelecom.net X-Trace: utornnr1pp.grouptelecom.net 1093844696 28671 64.42.245.152 (30 Aug 2004 05:44:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@gt.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 05:44:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.glorb.com!news.alt.net!newsfeed.grouptelecom.net!news.east.grouptelecom.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:183414 On 27 Aug 04 13:44:03 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote, in part: >Wasn't the fellow delivering the message from Earth >standing in front of a bank of Honeywell tape drives? I think the guy in Antarctica was doing just that. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 14:09:34 -0500 From: "William" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk> Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:09:33 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Trace: sv3-cQgnPQ96IRYJ1e5/GPWxL8PJoxzSZ7IyGVo5mCuedZudWm7wok+GK1iQfiRqTBLJ6dafLCDgOiQRLAQ!5nqcdvf5XBqVxwEdinR/NLBb5wJ5+F74Kj1CfCagjg8yxiEd9fhcVDhOJNwyDA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:184019 "Michael Wojcik" wrote in message news:cglc5j0g0e@news1.newsguy.com... > > (Though I vaguely recall some commercially-available foot-operated > "mice" from the early years of MS Windows, when there was more mass- > market interest in alternative input devices.) One was either marketed as, or at least people were encouraged to refer to it as, a "rat". -Wm ###### From: Gene Wirchenko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Why The 40-bit Word Length Was Once Popular Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:19:42 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <41263fe2.43653@news.ecn.ab.ca> <10idtvocjipoe85@news.supernews.com> <8LmdnWXbdpeClrHcRVn-gg@surfnetusa.com> <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:185259 mwojcik@newsguy.com (Michael Wojcik) wrote: >In article <20040825.0707.57501snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >> >> "Ooh", thought I to myself, "I've used a computer with a foot-pedal". >> >> After the requisite brain-racking, I've remembered: it was on the 928 >> vector graphics display on an Elliott 905; the foot-pedal meant that the >> light-pen was supposed to be looking at something significant. > >Ah, the old point-and-stomp interface. Damn Xerox / Apple / Microsoft >conspiracy buried that one, too. > >(Though I vaguely recall some commercially-available foot-operated >"mice" from the early years of MS Windows, when there was more mass- >market interest in alternative input devices.) I saw one at a tradeshow. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.