Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Has anybody built a computer? Reply-To: jhaynes@alumni.uark.edu Organization: University of Arkansas Alumni X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) Lines: 8 Message-ID: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:24:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.226.60.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1089509051 4.226.60.229 (Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:24:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:24:11 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!63.223.4.70!c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!c4a26796!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178732 I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there must be some hardware hackers around too. -- jhhaynes at earthlink dot net ###### From: Howard Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:42:36 -0400 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-197.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.glorb.com!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178738 In article <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>, haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) wrote: > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > must be some hardware hackers around too. Yes, people have built computers out of parts. These machines weren't old when people built them, by definition. -- Your prison is walking through this world all alone. ###### From: dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 11 Jul 2004 01:52:40 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!HSNX.atgi.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!news.usc.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178736 Jim Haynes wrote: > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > must be some hardware hackers around too. If "parts" can include 7400 series chips, then yes, I've done it. It was ghastly primitive and the control unit barely got along on its own, but it worked. -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u' ###### Message-ID: <40F0DF24.D6C62F66@optushome.com.au> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:33:08 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.28.100.186 X-Trace: 1089527410 18672 211.28.100.186 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uninett.no!newsfeed1.eu.ignite.net!newsfeed.pacific.net.au!newsfeeder.syd.optusnet.com.au!news.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178746 Yes, I built an "EDUC-8" back in '74-5. No microprocessor, all 7400 series SSI TTL. It was dumb as dogshit, but was great fun to use (when it wasn't playing up). See one here:- http://www.ljw.me.uk/educ8/ Rob Storey Jim Haynes wrote: > > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > must be some hardware hackers around too. > > -- > > jhhaynes at earthlink dot net ###### From: Keith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:54:43 -0700 Organization: none Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de IqWxS0XadCdOtR/5zmC3UQEpad9utzfQ38p8m44uO6HTKd90/1 User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178740 On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:52:40 +0000, dgriffi wrote: > Jim Haynes wrote: >> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old >> machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there >> must be some hardware hackers around too. > > If "parts" can include 7400 series chips, then yes, I've done it. It was > ghastly primitive and the control unit barely got along on its own, but it > worked. 7400s? I have a bunch of these things from the early '70s in the basement. I'm sure they have solderpproof leads by now, but perhaps they're worth something on the "folklore" market? -- Keith ###### From: Trog Woolley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: trog-oz.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1089535941 12220 80.176.225.249 (11 Jul 2004 08:52:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:52:21 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178748 While stranded on the hard shoulder of the information super highway haynes@alumni.uark.edu typed: > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > must be some hardware hackers around too. When I was at school in the early 70's, I built the Jackie computer as featured the Cambridge Press book "We Built Our Own Computers". This was all relays and it could add, subtract and multiply, and had 8 bits of memory. We did try to expand it to 16 bits but the power drain was too great for the lab power packs. Jackie is Junior Arithmetic Calculator and Kinetic Input Evalutor. -- Trog Woolley | trog at trogwoolley dot com (A Croweater back residing in Pommie Land with Linux) Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Demeter Kali Inanna ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 11 Jul 2004 14:33:13 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1089556393 13444 134.117.136.48 (11 Jul 2004 14:33:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2004 14:33:13 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@smeagol.ncf.ca (Michael Black) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178774 Keith (krw@att.bizzzz) writes: > On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:52:40 +0000, dgriffi wrote: > >> Jim Haynes wrote: >>> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old >>> machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there >>> must be some hardware hackers around too. >> >> If "parts" can include 7400 series chips, then yes, I've done it. It was >> ghastly primitive and the control unit barely got along on its own, but it >> worked. > > 7400s? I have a bunch of these things from the early '70s in the > basement. I'm sure they have solderpproof leads by now, but perhaps > they're worth something on the "folklore" market? > > -- > Keith No, they'd not have any particularly high value, except if there were some ICs that were uncommon and later went out of production. To this day, one can get common 7400 series logic. Nothing came along to supercede the series, so while some specific devices went out of production, the series is still what one would use when needed discrete logic devices. Of course, straight ttl may be hard to find new these days. There's been a whole slew of different families within the series that made them faster and made them use less current. But the number scheme remains, and the pintout remains. Michael ###### Lines: 32 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mensanator@aol.compost (Mensanator) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 11 Jul 2004 16:22:10 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Message-ID: <20040711122210.15941.00000976@mb-m21.aol.com> Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178777 >Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? >From: Keith krw@att.bizzzz >Date: 7/11/2004 1:54 AM Central Standard Time >Message-id: > >On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:52:40 +0000, dgriffi wrote: > >> Jim Haynes wrote: >>> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old >>> machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there >>> must be some hardware hackers around too. >> >> If "parts" can include 7400 series chips, then yes, I've done it. It was >> ghastly primitive and the control unit barely got along on its own, but it >> worked. > >7400s? I have a bunch of these things from the early '70s in the >basement. I'm sure they have solderpproof leads by now, We used to dip such ICs in Tarnex. Made the blackened leads shiny and solderable again. >but perhaps >they're worth something on the "folklore" market? > >-- > Keith -- Mensanator Ace of Clubs ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:13:50 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 3 Message-ID: References: <20040711122210.15941.00000976@mb-m21.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1089566028 6511 17.205.21.66 (11 Jul 2004 17:13:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:13:48 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newsfeed1.sea.pnap.net!newsfeed.pnap.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178778 > >>> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ ###### From: Keith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:19:34 -0700 Organization: none Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de lL1XAu2xsBf+gZbwZ5FfnwcDabgE4h8/1rsF1ZRLxKTaSL0JLU User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178782 On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:33:13 +0000, Michael Black wrote: > Keith (krw@att.bizzzz) writes: >> On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:52:40 +0000, dgriffi wrote: >> >>> Jim Haynes wrote: >>>> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old >>>> machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there >>>> must be some hardware hackers around too. >>> >>> If "parts" can include 7400 series chips, then yes, I've done it. It was >>> ghastly primitive and the control unit barely got along on its own, but it >>> worked. >> >> 7400s? I have a bunch of these things from the early '70s in the >> basement. I'm sure they have solderpproof leads by now, but perhaps >> they're worth something on the "folklore" market? >> >> -- >> Keith > > No, they'd not have any particularly high value, except if there were some > ICs that were uncommon and later went out of production. Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of things. And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. the 'LS and then 'ALS totally took over the low-speed market, while 'AS and 'F went for the high end. I was just wondering if parts with a date-code of '70-'74 would be "interesting" to anyone with such a masochistic bent. ;-) > To this day, one can get common 7400 series logic. Nothing came along > to supercede the series, so while some specific devices went out of > production, the series is still what one would use when needed discrete > logic devices. TTL was superceded by PALs, GALs, and FPGAs. The only common TTL anymore are the registers/buffers and that sort of thing. Perhaps a couple of gates and FFs for "Oopses". > Of course, straight ttl may be hard to find new these days. There's > been a whole slew of different families within the series that made them > faster and made them use less current. But the number scheme remains, > and the pintout remains. Be careful of pinouts. There was a move afoot to change them to Vcc/Gnd in the centers rather than the corners with some of the faster families. -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:31:41 -0500 From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Organization: Multicians References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:31:41 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.46.140.163 X-Trace: sv3-2R4hQw9iwpEazMCcVEw2IVHHfjy7m6fUeFg6bmk8yga/F4UDr4QLrQGA1XgCGn1u1VfGVv7ehwWrYMe!zihbStBFyReWUE0h9SG/KOPTFlr2p9WlxKAWR6imj/7+J1Py2jBVW/UEvsH+RL51pIq0V4hP0fQ1!NYbz7oDW X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178786 Jim Haynes wrote: > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. I got my start in computing building a computer with a bunch of other high school students in an engineer's basement -- in 1959. Story and pictures: http://www.multicians.org/thvv/boyd.html We silk screened our own circuit boards: a single JK two-transistor flip-flop went on a single board, about 3x5 inches. We used a kind of rivet machine to insert silver posts around the edge for interconnect. ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 11 Jul 2004 20:48:27 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: vpn-129-150-116-86.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1089578907 8411 129.150.116.86 (11 Jul 2004 20:48:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2004 20:48:27 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newsfeed1.sea.pnap.net!newsfeed2.sea.pnap.net!newsfeed.pnap.net!brmea-news-1.sun.com!news1nwk.sfbay.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178787 In article , Trog Woolley writes: > While stranded on the hard shoulder of the information super highway haynes@alumni.uark.edu typed: >> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old >> machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there >> must be some hardware hackers around too. > > When I was at school in the early 70's, I built the Jackie computer > as featured the Cambridge Press book "We Built Our Own Computers". > This was all relays and it could add, subtract and multiply, and > had 8 bits of memory. We did try to expand it to 16 bits but the > power drain was too great for the lab power packs. > > Jackie is Junior Arithmetic Calculator and Kinetic Input Evalutor. What was the Kinetic bit? If it doesn't work, hit it? ;-) Reminds me of a Z80 based computer I designed and built from scratch as a student. I didn't mind paying for the TTL chips, but things like board connectors cost even more back then, and I objected to paying money for those, so I etched my own. The effect of this was that if you reseated all the boards, the computer would run for perhaps half an hour or so, or until someone slammed a door anywhere in the house;-) -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: "Norm Dresner" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Lines: 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:16:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.77.46.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1089591412 12.77.46.166 (Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:16:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:16:52 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178794 "Keith" wrote in message news:pan.2004.07.11.18.19.31.557241@att.bizzzz... > Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of things. > And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. the 'LS and then 'ALS > totally took over the low-speed market, while 'AS and 'F went for the > high end. I was just wondering if parts with a date-code of '70-'74 would > be "interesting" to anyone with such a masochistic bent. ;-) > Wrong. You can still buy standard 74xx TTL ICs from mainline distributors like Mouser and Digikey as well as several "surplus" and "trailing edge" houses too. Norm ###### From: dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 12 Jul 2004 06:09:38 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!news.usc.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178809 Keith wrote: > On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:52:40 +0000, dgriffi wrote: >> Jim Haynes wrote: >>> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old >>> machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there >>> must be some hardware hackers around too. >> >> If "parts" can include 7400 series chips, then yes, I've done it. It was >> ghastly primitive and the control unit barely got along on its own, but it >> worked. > 7400s? I have a bunch of these things from the early '70s in the > basement. I'm sure they have solderpproof leads by now, but perhaps > they're worth something on the "folklore" market? I was implying any sort of 7400 variant. -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu <-- Switch the 'b' and 'u' ###### From: "David McKenna" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-152-74-138.range81-152.btcentralplus.com X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1089618009 25876 81.152.74.138 (12 Jul 2004 07:40:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:40:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!194.72.9.35.MISMATCH!news-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178810 "Keith" writes: > Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of things. > And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. Not according to TI. Straight plain 74xx chips are still available, and appear to be still manufactured. http://focus.ti.com/logic/docs/bytechnologyfamily.tsp?templateId=5985&navigationId=11386&path=templatedata/cm/ovw/data/ttl_overview&technologyFamilyId=22 Who's buying them? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 04 10:04:54 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <40f272ff$0$1190$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=`If8HK`=TA?dLP>MS^eDg@0aRAVNS:^U:?:Tm0Ln5I8Q, Tom Van Vleck wrote: >Jim Haynes wrote: > >> I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. > >I got my start in computing building a computer with >a bunch of other high school students in an engineer's >basement -- in 1959. Story and pictures: > http://www.multicians.org/thvv/boyd.html I'm jealous. The high school chemistry teacher was building a computer in the back lab; three or four students of the male flavor would work on it during the lunch hour...but no girls were allowed. > >We silk screened our own circuit boards: a single JK >two-transistor flip-flop went on a single board, about >3x5 inches. We used a kind of rivet machine to insert >silver posts around the edge for interconnect. DEC hired 6-12 females to make KLs. Does that count as "building a computer"? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Norm Dresner" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Lines: 35 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:13:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.77.48.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1089652408 12.77.48.202 (Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:13:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:13:28 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178841 "David McKenna" wrote in message news:cctf8p$p8k$1@hercules.btinternet.com... > "Keith" writes: > > > Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of things. > > And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. > > Not according to TI. Straight plain 74xx chips are still available, and > appear to be still manufactured. > > http://focus.ti.com/logic/docs/bytechnologyfamily.tsp?templateId=5985&navigationId=11386&path=templatedata/cm/ovw/data/ttl_overview&technologyFamilyId=22 > > Who's buying them? > > Well ... I've actually bought a few in the last year. 7406 - 7407 - 7416 - 7417 are "high voltage" open collector buffers and inverters that are suitable for interfacing with LS drivers but capable of switching up to 15 volts at enough milliamperes in a short enough period of nanoseconds to be useful. This was a "new" design and not just replacement for legacy hardware, though it was hardly a high volume purchase (<25 overall so far). In general, I'll consider a standard 74xx device when I need a logic function with more drive output than I can get from standard LS, ALS, ... parts because the single 74xx device saves a separate buffer package. I also use a very small number of 74S devices as well for the same reason. I'm definitely not what's keeping the production lines open, I'd guess that it's more a result of repair of legacy systems that's driving the current manufacturing curve. Norm ###### From: Dragonmaster Lou Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:29:24 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Brown University Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: techhouse.brown.edu X-Trace: saturn.services.brown.edu 1089656964 24992 128.148.66.66 (12 Jul 2004 18:29:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@nntp.brown.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:29:24 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nf3.bellglobal.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!oshean-news.uri.edu!nntp.brown.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178848 In article <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>, Jim Haynes wrote: > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > must be some hardware hackers around too. I build a really simple one in an engineering class once (probably supported no more than 4 or 5 instructions, best I can remember). All using 7400 and similar series parts. -- -------------------- http://www.techhouse.org/lou ---------------------- "Dragonmaster Lou" | "Searching for a distant star, heading off to lou at techhouse org | Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows Tech House Alum | what dangers we'll find..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: Dragonmaster Lou Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:31:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Brown University Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: techhouse.brown.edu X-Trace: saturn.services.brown.edu 1089657078 24992 128.148.66.66 (12 Jul 2004 18:31:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@nntp.brown.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:31:18 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!news.verio.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news2.wam.umd.edu!elk.ncren.net!oshean-news.uri.edu!nntp.brown.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178850 In article , David McKenna wrote: > "Keith" writes: > >> Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of things. >> And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. > > Not according to TI. Straight plain 74xx chips are still available, and > appear to be still manufactured. > > http://focus.ti.com/logic/docs/bytechnologyfamily.tsp?templateId=5985&navigationId=11386&path=templatedata/cm/ovw/data/ttl_overview&technologyFamilyId=22 > > Who's buying them? Engineering/electronics classes -- we had a ton of them for my college classes back in the late 90's. They're also useful for random electronic hobbyist sorts of things, like when we built a 14 story Tetris game. -- -------------------- http://www.techhouse.org/lou ---------------------- "Dragonmaster Lou" | "Searching for a distant star, heading off to lou at techhouse org | Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows Tech House Alum | what dangers we'll find..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: spinoza1111@yahoo.com (Edward G. Nilges) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 13 Jul 2004 01:56:21 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.144.207.173 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1089708981 30609 127.0.0.1 (13 Jul 2004 08:56:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:56:21 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178878 Trog Woolley wrote in message news:... > While stranded on the hard shoulder of the information super highway haynes@alumni.uark.edu typed: > > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > > must be some hardware hackers around too. > > When I was at school in the early 70's, I built the Jackie computer > as featured the Cambridge Press book "We Built Our Own Computers". Had a copy, read it: was quite disappointed to learn that the "computer" was incapable of either conditional operations or looping and I felt that as such, the title was a bit deceptive. At that early date, I'd read Turing's 1936 paper and decided, quite on my own you understand, that a "computer" was a device that could simulate a Turing machine. Of course, one needs to be charitable. I've just published a book of my own (through Apress) titled "Build Your Own .Net Language and Compiler". Some readers were disappointed to find that I wrote my own interpreter for the language compiled (a subset/dialect of Quick Basic) and only had limited capabilities to compile to the .Net "common language runtime", Microsoft's answer to Java and to bytecode. But the Cambridge book's limitations were such that I did not do the labs in the book, because I don't like futzing with hardware, and the result portrayed in the book was to me singularly unexciting. I also worked on a design using rubber bands in series for Boolean And, in parallel for Or and with a half-twist for Not, with my kid brother turning a central shaft for a power supply. The book came available in the USA during a period just prior to the Altair's introduction in 1974, when everyone was wondering (1) what crazy s**t Nixon would pull next and (2) when they could get a computer in their home. Indeed, I was so CPU-crazed that the HP 75 seemed like manna from heaven, although being broke I waited until Texas Instruments came out with the SR-52. Today, we all have more CPUs that we know what to do with and strictly IMO, the current White House lunatic makes Tricky Dick look like Socrates. > This was all relays and it could add, subtract and multiply, and > had 8 bits of memory. We did try to expand it to 16 bits but the > power drain was too great for the lab power packs. > > Jackie is Junior Arithmetic Calculator and Kinetic Input Evalutor. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:09:49 -0400 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeed.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news-out.superfeed.net!corp-news!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178923 On 2004-07-12, Dragonmaster Lou wrote: > I build a really simple one in an engineering class once (probably > supported no more than 4 or 5 instructions, best I can remember). All > using 7400 and similar series parts. It would be a fun project now to build one, and not just a simple toy machine, but one capable of running a decent OS. I think it would be a lot more educational in college than a Windows box with VisualPuke(TM). -- shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["The grieving lords take ship. With these our very souls pass overseas." -- Exile] ###### From: stegeman.h@12move.nl (Henk Stegeman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 13 Jul 2004 23:40:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <7980590c.0407132240.5f21a2bb@posting.google.com> References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 134.146.0.12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1089787244 28702 127.0.0.1 (14 Jul 2004 06:40:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:40:44 +0000 (UTC) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178919 haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) wrote in message news:<%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>... > I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > must be some hardware hackers around too. Yes. I build a machine with +/- 110 TTL IC's in 1976. See some pictures of it on: http://www.siconic.com/crap/henk/ The system is still running. I am currently restoring an old IBM System/7 See: http://www.anysystems.nl/system7.html Anyone who can help me with HW, SW or doc of this sytem ? Regards Henk. ###### From: Dragonmaster Lou Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:45:27 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Brown University Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: techhouse.brown.edu X-Trace: saturn.services.brown.edu 1089819927 7174 128.148.66.66 (14 Jul 2004 15:45:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@nntp.brown.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:45:27 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.umass.edu!elk.ncren.net!oshean-news.uri.edu!nntp.brown.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178941 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > On 2004-07-12, Dragonmaster Lou wrote: > >> I build a really simple one in an engineering class once (probably >> supported no more than 4 or 5 instructions, best I can remember). All >> using 7400 and similar series parts. > > It would be a fun project now to build one, and not just a simple toy > machine, but one capable of running a decent OS. > > I think it would be a lot more educational in college than a Windows box > with VisualPuke(TM). Oh, I agree that that would be a lot more educational. However, assuming my experiences in college were typical, building such a machine would probably be a year-long project for the average student (assuming you're building it from real, live chips) at the very least. It might be a little less if they were just building such a machine on a simulator (less worrying about debugging loose wires and crap -- just draw the circuits on screen and go). However, it still would be a lot of work. Still, at my college, all computer science students had to take at least one (preferably two) hardware classes that involve building machines -- one on a simulator and one using real hardware. The operating system class was also very good, I felt, seeing as how you had to write your own entire operating system (running on simulated hardware, not real bare metal, but it still supported everything a real OS needs to do from terminal drivers to virtual memory). -- -------------------- http://www.techhouse.org/lou ---------------------- "Dragonmaster Lou" | "Searching for a distant star, heading off to lou at techhouse org | Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows Tech House Alum | what dangers we'll find..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Reply-To: jhaynes@alumni.uark.edu Organization: University of Arkansas Alumni X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) Lines: 35 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:15:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 4.227.2.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1089832501 4.227.2.104 (Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:15:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:15:01 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!63.223.4.70!c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!c4a26796!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178958 In article , Dragonmaster Lou wrote: > >In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >> On 2004-07-12, Dragonmaster Lou wrote: >> >>> I build a really simple one in an engineering class once (probably >>> supported no more than 4 or 5 instructions, best I can remember). All >> >Oh, I agree that that would be a lot more educational. However, >assuming my experiences in college were typical, building such a machine >would probably be a year-long project for the average student (assuming >you're building it from real, live chips) at the very least. It might We did an interesting thing at U.C. Santa Cruz a good many years ago. First I (employee, not a student) designed a simple 8-bit machine and had a technician build it - a wire wrap board for all the logic and a front panel with lights and switches. Then we had a class take on a project to build an equivalent wired board that would plug into the same front panel, without looking at the schematics of the board that was already made. Bill McKeeman was the instructor. He divided the class into small groups, having each group take responsibility for one part of the machine. Then certain individuals had additional duties for the project as a whole, such as allocating space on the board, keeping track of available gates in the chips, and shepherding the wiring instructions through a wire routing program. Also each person had to put in a certain amount of time wire wrapping and checking wiring. I think the students learned some things about organizing a group project as well as about the computer logic. The design, by the way, was entirely static so that the clock could be single-stepped and the logic could be checked with a logic pen. -- jhhaynes at earthlink dot net ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 14 Jul 2004 15:19:04 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: news.spies.com 1089843544 64.62.206.2 (14 Jul 2004 15:19:04 -0700) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178961 Keith writes: > Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of things. > And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. Not true. Texas Instruments still makes an assortment of "straight" 74xx TTL chips. Not as many as they used to but they're not all gone yet. ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 15 Jul 2004 00:47:21 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1089852441 25948 134.117.136.48 (15 Jul 2004 00:47:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2004 00:47:21 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@smeagol.ncf.ca (Michael Black) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178971 Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) writes: > Keith writes: >> Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of things. >> And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. > > Not true. Texas Instruments still makes an assortment of "straight" 74xx > TTL chips. Not as many as they used to but they're not all gone yet. And of course, there is an at least 35 year collection of the stuff floating around. Whoever wondered if their 30 year old collection of TTL was of some value to builders, it seemed to imply that TTL was a flash in the pan and hard to get. But it was a major family, that as I pointed out, is still in production today. Yes, some devices have disappeared, but other devices have been added to the series. There are plenty of surplus boards floating around, besides the old and new stock, so there likely is very little TTL that could not be scrounged up fairly easily. If someone was talking RTL or DTL, then a stash somewhere might be of value. Both families had a short life, and were before digital got all that popular. Or for that matter, if someone wanted to make that Mark-8 that appeared in a recent thread, they might have problems getting the 8008, since it had a limited time run, and did not see the wide useage that even the next generation of CPU saw. Michael ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 15 Jul 2004 07:14:33 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1089875673 14189 134.117.136.48 (15 Jul 2004 07:14:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2004 07:14:33 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.ncf.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!209.11.36.156.MISMATCH!nntp-server.pubsub.com!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178978 Jim Haynes (haynes@alumni.uark.edu) writes: > > We did an interesting thing at U.C. Santa Cruz a good many years ago. ... > Bill McKeeman was the instructor. ... Would that be one of the XPL guys? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 04 10:50:01 GMT Lines: 62 Message-ID: <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=7nRYji`kMof>C5OJ=2C6Qi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178986 In article , Dragonmaster Lou wrote: Nice to see ya drop in :-). >In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >> On 2004-07-12, Dragonmaster Lou wrote: >> >>> I build a really simple one in an engineering class once (probably >>> supported no more than 4 or 5 instructions, best I can remember). All >>> using 7400 and similar series parts. >> >> It would be a fun project now to build one, and not just a simple toy >> machine, but one capable of running a decent OS. >> >> I think it would be a lot more educational in college than a Windows box >> with VisualPuke(TM). > >Oh, I agree that that would be a lot more educational. However, >assuming my experiences in college were typical, building such a machine >would probably be a year-long project for the average student (assuming >you're building it from real, live chips) at the very least. It might >be a little less if they were just building such a machine on a >simulator (less worrying about debugging loose wires and crap -- just >draw the circuits on screen and go). I would object to this at the top of my voice. :-) There existed hardware engineers who believed that the Jupiter was built and working just because it did so on the emulator. One of the problems that the bridge people at lunch talked about was not being able to retrofit a hardware tweak, done by hand to fix a problem, into the software that would build the hardware. I've also e-seen people claim that certain things exist because the saw it "work" on their TTY screens, like weaponry. Building, for real, by hand, is a great sanity check for the rest of one's life. > .. However, it still would be a lot >of work. > >Still, at my college, all computer science students had to take at least >one (preferably two) hardware classes that involve building machines -- >one on a simulator and one using real hardware. YES! That's the best way to teach and learn. > ..The operating system >class was also very good, I felt, seeing as how you had to write your >own entire operating system (running on simulated hardware, not real >bare metal, but it still supported everything a real OS needs to do from >terminal drivers to virtual memory). Does it still do all this? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Dragonmaster Lou Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:42:13 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Brown University Lines: 89 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: techhouse.brown.edu X-Trace: saturn.services.brown.edu 1089906133 28181 128.148.66.66 (15 Jul 2004 15:42:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@nntp.brown.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:42:13 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!oshean-news.uri.edu!nntp.brown.edu!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:178999 In article <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Dragonmaster Lou wrote: > > Nice to see ya drop in :-). > >>In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >>> On 2004-07-12, Dragonmaster Lou > wrote: >>> >>>> I build a really simple one in an engineering class once (probably >>>> supported no more than 4 or 5 instructions, best I can remember). All >>>> using 7400 and similar series parts. >>> >>> It would be a fun project now to build one, and not just a simple toy >>> machine, but one capable of running a decent OS. >>> >>> I think it would be a lot more educational in college than a Windows box >>> with VisualPuke(TM). >> >>Oh, I agree that that would be a lot more educational. However, >>assuming my experiences in college were typical, building such a machine >>would probably be a year-long project for the average student (assuming >>you're building it from real, live chips) at the very least. It might >>be a little less if they were just building such a machine on a >>simulator (less worrying about debugging loose wires and crap -- just >>draw the circuits on screen and go). > > I would object to this at the top of my voice. :-) There > existed hardware engineers who believed that the Jupiter was > built and working just because it did so on the emulator. > One of the problems that the bridge people at lunch talked > about was not being able to retrofit a hardware tweak, done > by hand to fix a problem, into the software that would > build the hardware. > > I've also e-seen people claim that certain things exist > because the saw it "work" on their TTY screens, like > weaponry. Building, for real, by hand, is a great sanity > check for the rest of one's life. I never said that an emulator was a perfect substitution for building it from real hardware -- just that it would be okay given the time constraints the average college class has. If you plan to actually sell it as real hardware, you definitely should build some kind of real prototype before you ship. :) >> .. However, it still would be a lot >>of work. >> >>Still, at my college, all computer science students had to take at least >>one (preferably two) hardware classes that involve building machines -- >>one on a simulator and one using real hardware. > > YES! That's the best way to teach and learn. Agreed. Those were some of my favorite classes, too. :) The machines were pretty simple, though -- 8 bit stuff with only a dozen or so opcodes, if I remember correctly. Still, it gave you a good idea of just what physically goes on inside the machine when you execute code on it. Now the hard-core processor design students, they are the ones that had to build more sophisticated stuff... Me, I straddled the line between hardware and software, so I didn't take many of the hard-core CPU design courses. >> ..The operating system >>class was also very good, I felt, seeing as how you had to write your >>own entire operating system (running on simulated hardware, not real >>bare metal, but it still supported everything a real OS needs to do from >>terminal drivers to virtual memory). > > Does it still do all this? Yeah, it does still do that. I'm just a kid (only 27) compared to most of the people in here, and I only took that class about 6 years ago. From what I understand, the simulator for the OS course has been improved and enhanced since when I took the class. If you want to browse the docs for the simulator, you can view them at http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/cs167/doc/sim.pdf. -- -------------------- http://www.techhouse.org/lou ---------------------- "Dragonmaster Lou" | "Searching for a distant star, heading off to lou at techhouse org | Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows Tech House Alum | what dangers we'll find..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 15 Jul 2004 15:00:28 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: news.spies.com 1089928828 64.62.206.2 (15 Jul 2004 15:00:28 -0700) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179012 "Norm Dresner" writes: > Well ... I've actually bought a few in the last year. 7406 - 7407 - > 7416 - 7417 are "high voltage" open collector buffers and inverters that [...] > In general, I'll consider a standard 74xx device when I need a logic > function with more drive output than I can get from standard LS, ALS, ... For high-voltage open collector, you may be stuck with 74xx (and sometimes 74LSxx). But for "more drive output" in the normal sense of higher current, 74xx doesn't win over more modern families. For 5V buffers, 74ABT parts have about the highest output drive of any 74xx family. ###### From: David Wade Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 15 Jul 2004 23:15:42 +0100 Lines: 56 Message-ID: <444d29aaaa804c699a9bbb5af604bae4@ghytred.com> References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de z0oDgbSiOWKNKY5XKqiElQTzGcUI3dQzF8fvPLFHxf3g8nPIY= X-Newsreader: ghytred.NewsLook v1.60.1625.27002 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179016 >Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) writes: >>> Keith writes: >>> Most of the parts that are still available are data-flow type of >>> things. >>> And none of those are straignt 74xx anymore. >> >> Not true. Texas Instruments still makes an assortment of "straight" >> 74xx TTL chips. Not as many as they used to but they're not all gone >> yet. > >And of course, there is an at least 35 year collection of the stuff floating around. > >Whoever wondered if their 30 year old collection of TTL was of some value to builders, it >seemed to imply that TTL was a flash in the pan and hard to get. But it was a major >> >family, that as I pointed out, is still in production today. Yes, some devices have > >disappeared, but other devices have been added to the series. There are plenty of >surplus boards floating around, besides the old and new stock, so there likely is very > >little TTL that could not be scrounged up fairly easily. > >If someone was talking RTL or DTL, then a stash somewhere might be of value. Both > >families had a short life, and were before digital got all that popular. > > >Or for that matter, if someone wanted to make that Mark-8 that appeared in a recent > >thread, they might have problems getting the 8008, since it had a limited time run, and > >did not see the wide useage that even the next generation of CPU saw. > > Michael Whilst I have never build a system from raw TTL I did build systems from components but using M6800 and M6809 CPUs. And it seems that "what goes round comes round". I remmember searching through boxes of old ICL boards, These had had the gold plated edge connectors removed for scrap and the remaining chips were considered worthless. We looked for the TTL and RAM chips needed to build the systems and had crib sheets to conevert from the ICL "letter" scheme to 74 codes. These were then removed by heating the solder side of the board with a propane blow-lamp (in a well ventilated space) and quickly flicking them off with a screw driver!! Might be we need to use similar methods again. I also have a good friend who did DESIGN and BUILD a machine from TTL. It had an "interesting bug". The machine used a recirculating pulse which was routed along a series of shift registers, which drove the sub-steps of each cycle. Un fortunatly the "multiply" path was never implemented, and the pulse "fell off the end" of a shift register causing the machine to halt. However there was a small red button on the back to pop it back in again:-) He also had a "one pass" assembler. I am not sure if he got as far as micro basic, because we all moved on to 6809 based machines running flex. Dave. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Reply-To: jhaynes@alumni.uark.edu Organization: University of Arkansas Alumni X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: haynes@alumni.uark.edu (Jim Haynes) Lines: 15 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:27:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.190.96.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1089944870 63.190.96.43 (Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:27:50 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:27:50 PDT Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!63.223.4.70!c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!c4a26796!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179031 In article , Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > >Jim Haynes (haynes@alumni.uark.edu) writes: >... >> Bill McKeeman was the instructor. >... > > Would that be one of the XPL guys? Yep. THE XPL guy. -- jhhaynes at earthlink dot net ###### From: Walter Bushell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:48:44 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-0cdfn4s.cable.mindspring.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1091116081 6863 24.215.220.156 (29 Jul 2004 15:48:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:48:01 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!129.250.35.142.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.stngva01.us.to.verio.net!newsfeed1.nycmny01.us.to.verio.net!newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu!panix!proto Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179738 In article , Dragonmaster Lou wrote: > I never said that an emulator was a perfect substitution for building it > from real hardware -- just that it would be okay given the time > constraints the average college class has. > > If you plan to actually sell it as real hardware, you definitely should > build some kind of real prototype before you ship. :) Somebody with the ear of the person making the decisions, should have built (or gone thru the process at a sufficiently high level) some kind of real prototype of something of similar complexity. And top management should be familiar with the work of John Gall, that is _Systemantics_. -- Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 30 Jul 2004 01:28:24 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1091150904 7307 134.117.136.48 (30 Jul 2004 01:28:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2004 01:28:24 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.ncf.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179763 Walter Bushell (proto@panix.com) writes: > ... > > And top management should be familiar with the work of John Gall, that is > > _Systemantics_. Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:07:44 -0500 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Hamblen Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Organization: Utterly Disorganized User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:07:44 -0500 Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.52.7.244 X-Trace: sv3-ub32GJjnpo6OBC7ET8OKZRujLT/cgOGd+qg+cHcqphxzEKKyHGwnlNlHW1ZvsYh4ldcgLBz8X3dBcsQ!DlwHDHOd1+EyRROknawo9E5nt8cW4YVK/NdcODJayhumdHpUfceucXq1MRI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179774 On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more than you think: about 100 per year. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 30 Jul 2004 13:27:20 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1091194040 13240 134.117.136.48 (30 Jul 2004 13:27:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2004 13:27:20 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.ncf.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179793 William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: > On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > >> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? > > Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. > > Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more > than you think: about 100 per year. "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! B-) ###### From: Rupert Pigott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:46:53 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1091195213.195498@teapot.planet.gong> References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1091195213 16565 80.177.7.220 (30 Jul 2004 13:46:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:46:53 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.5) Gecko/20031208 Cache-Post-Path: teapot.planet.gong!unknown@192.168.1.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.netcologne.de!nhp.netcologne.de!news.clara.net!wagner.news.clara.net!194.159.246.34.MISMATCH!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179795 Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: > >>On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >> >> >>>Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? >> >>Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. >> >>Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >>than you think: about 100 per year. > "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. > Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! I must admit that I do find it plausible that some ships are lost to Rogue waves... Which reminds me : Did anyone ever compile up RogueWave here ? That was fun... Back in the days before the STL could justify the 'S'. ;) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:05:39 +0800 Organization: none Lines: 18 Message-ID: <87hdrp1crw.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: grimiore.conceptual.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1091269513 25461 203.190.192.5 (31 Jul 2004 10:25:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:25:13 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.2 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:rdyCH/j+yQjgfx1aAV50ws/qx6w= Cache-Post-Path: grimiore.conceptual.net.au!unknown@203-190-196-167.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.moat.net!nntp.waia.asn.au!198.32.212.248.MISMATCH!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179841 ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. Not > pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! See the latest New Scientest, they have got them with radar from satellites. The other one that is very good at offing ship is alloy steel, and scantlings to strength not fatigue :( -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: Té Rowan Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:08:35 +0000 Organization: Word used by Space Aliens Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp162-100.as.mi.is Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.simnet.is 1091261210 24272 217.151.162.100 (31 Jul 2004 08:06:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@simnet.is NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:06:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!nntpfeed.zonnet.nl!newsfeeder.wxs.nl!news-out2.kabelfoon.nl!83.128.0.10.MISMATCH!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.simnet.is!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179836 Saith Heinz W. Wiggeshoff: > >William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: >> On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >> >>> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? >> >> Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. >> >> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >> than you think: about 100 per year. > > "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. > Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! > > B-) Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've heard that a few have indeed done so. -- Té Rowan (reynirhs@mi.is) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 04 10:09:58 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <410b8176$0$2838$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=OR2OWVA=TmkVnU7RQY9\af0R]m=BkYWIg:6bU3OT9S9jWGcB=CK@AknaRAVNS:^U:o]dn:lDeLf_` X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179843 In article , Té Rowan wrote: >Saith Heinz W. Wiggeshoff: > >> >>William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: >>> On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >>> >>>> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? >>> >>> Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. >>> >>> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >>> than you think: about 100 per year. >> >> "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. >> Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! >> >> B-) > >Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down >like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've >heard that a few have indeed done so. I think an ore ship in Lake Superior is thought to have split in two. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:01:22 -0400 Message-ID: <28cgec.i0s.ln@escape.goid.lan> Lines: 15 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeed.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeed.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!news-out2.nuthinbutnews.com!local!corp-news!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179871 On 2004-07-30, William Hamblen wrote: > Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more > than you think: about 100 per year. I guess the ocean is becoming a regular junkyard. No wonder some people make their living at salvage operations. -- shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["I wish life was not so short. Languages take such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." - J. R. R. Tolkien] ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:55:57 +0100 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de fyJeoRQu3VjWchkJ40bsfwC4x8cDm64HzA5KM3mnjENywldzTC X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179870 In article , Té Rowan in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >Saith Heinz W. Wiggeshoff: > >> >>William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: >>> On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >>> >>>> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? >>> >>> Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. >>> >>> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >>> than you think: about 100 per year. >> >> "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. >> Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! >> >> B-) > >Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down >like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've >heard that a few have indeed done so. Similar thing here a few years back. A ship tried to do a 180 degree turn in the river leading to Wisbech. Unfortunately, length_of_ship .GT. width_of_river, and it beached bow and stern. Then the tide went out... Loaded with steel, it broke its back: they had to cut up the ship to remove it. Regards, David P. ###### From: Keith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:24:20 -0400 Organization: none Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <410b8176$0$2838$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de cF0Cu7DZjbotYhW07tiCTwJFTW0mzleMCXo0B7gyHu+guDU/jj User-Agent: Pan/0.14.2 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179880 On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:09:58 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > In article , > Té Rowan wrote: >>Saith Heinz W. Wiggeshoff: >> >>> >>>William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: >>>> On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >>>> >>>>> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? >>>> >>>> Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. >>>> >>>> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >>>> than you think: about 100 per year. >>> >>> "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. >>> Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! >>> >>> B-) >> >>Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down >>like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've >>heard that a few have indeed done so. > > I think an ore ship in Lake Superior is thought to have split in > two. The Edmund Fitzgerald? http://www.ssefo.com/ The lake it is said never gives up her dead when the skies of November turn gloomy With a load of iron ore 26,000 tons more than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty.... -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:39:48 -0500 From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:39:14 -0500 Message-ID: References: <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.52.7.244 X-Trace: sv3-tal8ms3O0ipFB5hbfePeF2brCY0xTgxaEnI+IKbQBEB4yBoKMXxxj56k617f02TtnGZS1dn7vN5lyo9!cy9R3qbLXoOPyhXJCUhilzJzPC00vITItfzkzrlKtfN/BMbKJMT5N22dUCyHa9QJLVOvQA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179881 On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:55:57 +0100, David Powell wrote: >In article , > Té Rowan in alt.folklore.computers wrote: > >>Saith Heinz W. Wiggeshoff: >> >>> >>>William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: >>>> On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >>>> >>>>> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? >>>> >>>> Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. >>>> >>>> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >>>> than you think: about 100 per year. >>> >>> "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. >>> Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! >>> >>> B-) >> >>Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down >>like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've >>heard that a few have indeed done so. > > >Similar thing here a few years back. A ship tried to do a 180 degree >turn in the river leading to Wisbech. Unfortunately, length_of_ship >.GT. width_of_river, and it beached bow and stern. Then the tide went >out... > >Loaded with steel, it broke its back: they had to cut up the ship to >remove it. I assume the river pilot lost his license over that debacle. The pilot is supposed to know the river well enough to avoid trying a stunt like that. Not only did he endanger the ship but he stopped navigation until the wreck could be cleared. Naval architects design enough beam strength into the hull of a ship so it will not break with wave crests at the ends and the through in the middle, plus a safety factor. This doesn't mean the ship will survive being supported only at the ends as there is bouyancy the whole length of the ship. Lloyds and other ship societies set these standards. If the ship is substandard then the shipping company can't get insurance. No insurance means no financing for the voyage and no cargo. No cargo means you go out of business. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 1 Aug 2004 02:23:11 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1091326991 11061 134.117.136.48 (1 Aug 2004 02:23:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 2004 02:23:11 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.ncf.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179919 Té Rowan (reynirhs@mi.is) writes: > > Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down > like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've > heard that a few have indeed done so. Ya, recent Popular Science had something about those waves. The "Big Fitz", Edmund Fitzgerald may have suffered the fate of one or more rogue waves during an early winter storm on Lake Superior. The last documentary seemed to frown on the Loose Deck Hatches theory. Being well out in Lake Superior between October and May (maybe April) is insanity. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 1 Aug 2004 02:36:32 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1091327792 12147 134.117.136.48 (1 Aug 2004 02:36:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 2004 02:36:32 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.ncf.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179920 David Powell (ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk) writes: > > > Similar thing here a few years back. A ship tried to do a 180 degree > turn in the river leading to Wisbech. Unfortunately, length_of_ship > .GT. width_of_river, and it beached bow and stern. Then the tide went > out... > > Loaded with steel, it broke its back: they had to cut up the ship to > remove it. Ah, finally: something to chuckle at today. If the steel was carefully unloaded, most of the cargo could've been salvaged, right? And given some skilful tugboating, dry docking and welding, the boat would be nearly as good as new. Well, maybe a little engine drying work too. B-) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <410b8176$0$2838$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 01 Aug 04 08:46:25 GMT Lines: 47 Message-ID: <410cbf6b$0$2847$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=gR2U3MQXY>@XRnZBHDoMYH0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JNla2nUM?F[FaRAVNS:^U:OZKT<_`Ta2AF>C5OJ=2C6QI X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179937 In article , Keith wrote: >On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:09:58 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > >> In article , >> Té Rowan wrote: >>>Saith Heinz W. Wiggeshoff: >>> >>>> >>>>William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: >>>>> On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? >>>>> >>>>> Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. >>>>> >>>>> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >>>>> than you think: about 100 per year. >>>> >>>> "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. >>>> Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! >>>> >>>> B-) >>> >>>Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down >>>like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've >>>heard that a few have indeed done so. >> >> I think an ore ship in Lake Superior is thought to have split in >> two. > >The Edmund Fitzgerald? http://www.ssefo.com/ > > The lake it is said never gives up her dead > when the skies of November turn gloomy > With a load of iron ore 26,000 tons more > than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty.... > Yes, thanks. I couldn't remember her name. I saw a TV show that had an emulation of what might have happened to sink her. I love to go on boat rides. Lake Superior is not a good place. Lake Michigan can be pretty bad, too. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 18:25:22 +0100 Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 9+fwfkatdMgDkZkPTHER0AY0I0O5IVsfVlioH7pRVkqvdnOOoO X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179956 In article , William Hamblen in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >Naval architects design enough beam strength into the hull of a ship >so it will not break with wave crests at the ends and the through in >the middle, plus a safety factor. This doesn't mean the ship will >survive being supported only at the ends as there is bouyancy the >whole length of the ship. Lloyds and other ship societies set these >standards. If the ship is substandard then the shipping company can't >get insurance. No insurance means no financing for the voyage and no >cargo. No cargo means you go out of business. That is the way that it works, and if a Lloyd's A1 certified ship goes down in heavy weather, then it's automatically poor seamanship. In 1980, MV Derbyshire, a Brit. 200 000t bulk carrier went down with all hands in a pacific typhoon, 80' waves reported by others. No inquiry at that time. An inquiry was held in 1987,after a sister ship broke in two off Ireland, finding "bad seamanship". 18 years after the sinking, the Deputy P.M. - an ex-seaman, apparently a bar steward in a floating gin palace - ordered a Government funded expedition to the wreck site, 2 1/2 miles down. The stuff brought up from the wreck proved that the hatch covers were inadequate and the second inquiry concluded that internationally agreed ship building standards are "seriously deficient". Worldwide, 300 large bulk carriers and 1000+ lives have been lost since the Derbyshire sank. Ah well, ding dong, ring the Lutine bell, the underwriters pay up, recover their lost profit by increasing next years premiums, which the ship owners pass on to the cargo agents. Regards, David P. ###### From: Patrick Scheible Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: 01 Aug 2004 10:50:34 -0700 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: References: <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <410b8176$0$2838$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <410cbf6b$0$2847$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cache-Post-Path: yasure!unknown@cascadia.drizzle.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 56 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:179961 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article , > Keith wrote: > >On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:09:58 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote: > > > >> In article , > >> Té Rowan wrote: > >>>Saith Heinz W. Wiggeshoff: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>William Hamblen (william.hamblen@comcast.net) writes: > >>>>> On 2004-07-30, Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Excellent tome. Single screw supertankers? What could go wrong? > >>>>> > >>>>> Single screw merchant ships are the rule, not the exception. > >>>>> > >>>>> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more > >>>>> than you think: about 100 per year. > >>>> > >>>> "Rogue" waves are the latest excuse for mysterious sinkings. > >>>> Not pirates, stupidity or insurance fraud - no siree! > >>>> > >>>> B-) > >>> > >>>Well, a fully-loaded ship *could* possibly break in two and go down > >>>like a lead balloon, were it caught sitting on two tall waves. I've > >>>heard that a few have indeed done so. > >> > >> I think an ore ship in Lake Superior is thought to have split in > >> two. > > > >The Edmund Fitzgerald? http://www.ssefo.com/ > > > > The lake it is said never gives up her dead > > when the skies of November turn gloomy > > With a load of iron ore 26,000 tons more > > than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty.... > > > Yes, thanks. I couldn't remember her name. I saw a TV > show that had an emulation of what might have happened > to sink her. I love to go on boat rides. Lake Superior is > not a good place. Lake Michigan can be pretty bad, too. Thanks for the web site. I see there's still many competing theories about why she sank and not enough info to know for sure. They did find the wreck in two pieces but close together, which some investigators think is more consistent with her sinking bow first and then breaking when the bow hit the bottom. The bottom's relatively shallow; with the bow touching bottom and the ship on end, her stern would stick out several hundred feet into the air. Too bad there were no survivors to tell us what happened. -- Patrick ###### From: "Hank Oredson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2149 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2149 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 01:21:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.73.9.210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1091755285 12.73.9.210 (Fri, 06 Aug 2004 01:21:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 01:21:25 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:180401 "Jim Haynes" wrote in message news:%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net... >I mean, like, out of parts, not using a microprocessor. Simulating old > machines on PCs is great, and lets us run the old software, but there > must be some hardware hackers around too. Just ran across the thread. In my case the answer is: "Yes", and "Pinball machine relays." -- ... Hank http://horedson.home.att.net http://w0rli.home.att.net ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:18:22 -0500 From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Has anybody built a computer? Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 11:18:47 -0500 Message-ID: References: <%E0Ic.945$sV2.648@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> <40f67232$0$1192$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <28cgec.i0s.ln@escape.goid.lan> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.52.7.244 X-Trace: sv3-DAsrVsli9yQOCeHBHNX/KGjUWLOuuDI1y0oPqbrPNQm8c/Un2FwE15oDI1UrrXru25XGEyuH5xmtLwL!vLwpL0vE8LZgCaDlcl35g6gZRi1+YF/Z1wiLLRNGwkcoJ5CKFPzHGFUVHnOUxp8oZTTUEA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Path: nightfall.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: nightfall.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:180633 On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:01:22 -0400, Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >On 2004-07-30, William Hamblen wrote: > >> Ever wonder how many merchant ships sink every year? It's more >> than you think: about 100 per year. > >I guess the ocean is becoming a regular junkyard. Quite literally a junkyard. See http://www.parismou.org/ParisMOU/Rustbucket/xp/menu.3984/default.aspx for some scary stuff.