From: Tim Lane Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:28:19 +0000 Organization: fsf.org Lines: 12 Message-ID: Reply-To: timlATmemberDOTfsfDOTorg NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.49.182 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 1079483315 1620 217.134.49.182 (17 Mar 2004 00:28:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2004 00:28:35 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168232 Does anyone know where I can find some documentation or perhaps an emulation of WAITS from SAIL? This is a version of TOPS-20 from the AI lab at Stanford. It seems to be easy to get information & documents on MIT ITS, but SAIL only seems to have the goodbye email & some photos. TNX! TIML ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:44:35 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: haxrus.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1079484274 29696 17.205.21.66 (17 Mar 2004 00:44:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:44:34 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newsfeed1.sea.pnap.net!newsfeed2.sea.pnap.net!newsfeed.pnap.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!haxrus.apple.com!user Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168235 In article , timlATmemberDOTfsfDOTorg wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find some documentation or perhaps an > emulation of WAITS from SAIL? This is a version of TOPS-20 from the AI > lab at Stanford. try alt.sys.pdp10 ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: 17 Mar 2004 14:09:49 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 25 Sender: alderson+news@panix5.panix.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1079550602 16285 166.84.1.5 (17 Mar 2004 19:10:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:10:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 21.3 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168291 Tim Lane writes: > Does anyone know where I can find some documentation or perhaps an emulation > of WAITS from SAIL? This is a version of TOPS-20 from the AI lab at Stanford. Actually, it's based on Tops-10 from before the change of name to Tops-10, the 4S72 monitor. At some point in its history, the filesystem was changed over to the Tops-20 model, but there are no JSYS system calls, only monitor UUOs of the CALLI variety for the most part, and login is by PPN, not username. > It seems to be easy to get information & documents on MIT ITS, but SAIL > only seems to have the goodbye email & some photos. See Bruce Baumgart's archives of the SAIL DART tape contents at http://www.baumgart.org/ The files in the DOC section, especially [S,DOC] and [UP,DOC], are what you are looking for. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:57:31 -0800 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 20 Sender: mrc@ndcms.cac.washington.edu Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: nntp1.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1079560657 15360 (None) 140.142.17.37 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.esat.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!Shimo-Tomobiki.Panda.COM!MRC Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168304 On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Rich Alderson wrote: > At some point in its history, the filesystem was changed over to > the Tops-20 model The WAITS filesystem was nothing like the TOPS-20 filesystem. It was closest to an early TOPS-10 filesystem, but with substantial differences. WAITS *did* end up using peripherals (RH20, RP07, TU78) commonly associated with TOPS-20 systems, and a lot of PHYSIO code was grafted into WAITS as the device driver; but the filesystem remained WAITS. WAITS had perhaps the most bulletproof filesystem ever invented. Lots of backpointers and redundant information which allowed recovery of almost anything. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. ###### From: glen herrmannsfeldt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.18.177.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1079560734 24.18.177.15 (Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:58:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:58:54 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:58:54 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.glorb.com!wn52feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168303 Rich Alderson wrote: > Tim Lane writes: >>Does anyone know where I can find some documentation or perhaps an emulation >>of WAITS from SAIL? This is a version of TOPS-20 from the AI lab at Stanford. > Actually, it's based on Tops-10 from before the change of name to Tops-10, the > 4S72 monitor. At some point in its history, the filesystem was changed over to > the Tops-20 model, but there are no JSYS system calls, only monitor UUOs of the > CALLI variety for the most part, and login is by PPN, not username. (snip) > http://www.baumgart.org/ > > The files in the DOC section, especially [S,DOC] and [UP,DOC], are what you are > looking for. What's [UP,DOC]? -- glen ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:28:34 -0800 Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing Lines: 12 Sender: mrc@ndcms.cac.washington.edu Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: nntp6.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1079562517 15064 (None) 140.142.17.40 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!Shimo-Tomobiki.Panda.COM!MRC Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168308 On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > What's [UP,DOC]? That pun has been around since the 1970s... UP => "user programs" -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. ###### From: Tim Lane Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:36:36 +0000 Organization: fsf.org Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: timlATmemberDOTfsfDOTorg NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.47.34 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 1079563011 25402 217.134.47.34 (17 Mar 2004 22:36:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2004 22:36:51 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168307 Rich Alderson 17 Mar 2004 14:09:49 -0500 writes: > See Bruce Baumgart's archives of the SAIL DART tape contents at > http://www.baumgart.org/ > The files in the DOC section, especially [S,DOC] and [UP,DOC], are > what you are looking for. Thank you very much everyone. That gives me something to use! .T.I.M ###### From: glen herrmannsfeldt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.18.177.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s03 1079589618 24.18.177.15 (Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:00:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:00:18 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:00:18 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168351 Mark Crispin wrote: > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: >> What's [UP,DOC]? > That pun has been around since the 1970s... > UP => "user programs" I figured it wasn't new, but I never heard it before. The TOPS-10 system I used to know used 5 digit project number and 3 character programmer number. I think that is what they are supposed to be called. I had [29970,GBH]. -- glen ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 05:57:45 -0600 From: John Sauter Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:57:45 -0500 Organization: System Eyes Computer Store Reply-To: J_Sauter@Empire.Net Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.235.24.247 X-Trace: sv3-YBMllj6ECWdSlGlVFtmxOANBb3kE0zCFAa4UBtAcnj6eCymX2maYR8rL4/ucDAVZwNLkwTrE6KcCd1H!Pp4BKQsT6M0EyVbz0jw0BWggrtxzXtNM3TiV2SbHnHMElwQ1SFnzm2YyNFZ/C9wHqqMa4KLFJ5aF!7DHa70XfpkkeA9RhvN+EsMalcg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: copyright@adelphia.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed3.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.adelphia.com!news.adelphia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168362 glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: The TOPS-10 system I used to know used 5 digit project number and 3 character programmer number. I think that is what they are supposed to be called. I had [29970,GBH]. John Sauter responded: Originally, TOPS-10 (and the PDP=6 Monitor) used octal project-programmer numbers. I modified SAIL to use sixbit. It sounds like the system you used to know was modified to use decimal,sixbit. Which system was that, and do you know who did the modification? John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) ###### From: Roland Hutchinson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:25:30 -0500 Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pool-151-198-156-191.nwrk.east.verizon.net (151.198.156.191) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1079623530 74237671 I 151.198.156.191 ([99522]) User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pool-151-198-156-191.nwrk.east.verizon.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168375 In article on Thursday 18 March 2004 01:00, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > Mark Crispin wrote: >> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > >>> What's [UP,DOC]? > >> That pun has been around since the 1970s... > >> UP => "user programs" > > I figured it wasn't new, but I never heard it before. > > The TOPS-10 system I used to know used 5 digit project number > and 3 character programmer number. I think that is what they > are supposed to be called. I had [29970,GBH]. Invariably known at SAIL and CCRMA as a PPN, pronounced "pippin". -- Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: 18 Mar 2004 14:04:16 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 28 Sender: alderson+news@panix5.panix.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1079636658 21265 166.84.1.5 (18 Mar 2004 19:04:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 19:04:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 21.3 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.mathworks.com!panix!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168391 Mark Crispin writes: > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004, Rich Alderson wrote: >> At some point in its history, the filesystem was changed over to >> the Tops-20 model > The WAITS filesystem was nothing like the TOPS-20 filesystem. It was > closest to an early TOPS-10 filesystem, but with substantial differences. > WAITS *did* end up using peripherals (RH20, RP07, TU78) commonly > associated with TOPS-20 systems, and a lot of PHYSIO code was grafted into > WAITS as the device driver; but the filesystem remained WAITS. I was of course confusing low-level PHYSIO stuff with the filesystem. When I wrote the above, I felt sure I had it wrong. (Thanks, Mark!) > WAITS had perhaps the most bulletproof filesystem ever invented. Lots of > backpointers and redundant information which allowed recovery of almost > anything. Yet another example of superiority to one's successors. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 03:30:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1079667023 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:30:23 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:30:23 MST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168416 On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:57:45 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers, John Sauter wrote: >glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: > >The TOPS-10 system I used to know used 5 digit project number >and 3 character programmer number. I think that is what they >are supposed to be called. I had [29970,GBH]. >John Sauter responded: > >Originally, TOPS-10 (and the PDP=6 Monitor) used >octal project-programmer numbers. I modified SAIL >to use sixbit. It sounds like the system you used to >know was modified to use decimal,sixbit. Which >system was that, and do you know who did the >modification? Could possibly have used RAD50 (aka MOD40) rather than sixbit? -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: glen herrmannsfeldt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? References: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.18.177.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1079672878 24.18.177.15 (Fri, 19 Mar 2004 05:07:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 05:07:58 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 05:07:58 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!wn52feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168420 Brian Inglis wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:57:45 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers, John > Sauter wrote: (snip) >>Originally, TOPS-10 (and the PDP=6 Monitor) used >>octal project-programmer numbers. I modified SAIL >>to use sixbit. It sounds like the system you used to >>know was modified to use decimal,sixbit. Which >>system was that, and do you know who did the >>modification? > Could possibly have used RAD50 (aka MOD40) rather than sixbit? 18 bits is three sixbit characters. RAD40 is used by RT11, among others, to store three characters in 16 bits. -- glen ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: 19 Mar 2004 02:15:52 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 18 Sender: alderson+news@panix5.panix.com Message-ID: References: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1079680554 7741 166.84.1.5 (19 Mar 2004 07:15:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:15:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 21.3 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!news2.wam.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168428 glen herrmannsfeldt writes: > Brian Inglis wrote: >> Could possibly have used RAD50 (aka MOD40) rather than sixbit? > 18 bits is three sixbit characters. RAD40 is used by RT11, > among others, to store three characters in 16 bits. Yes, and has been used even longer on the PDP-6 and -10 in symbol tables to store 6 characters in 32 bits, with a 4-bit code for type of symbol, so it's not impossible that it might have been used in PPN's--just less likely. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> <75ml505094g46pb7udn4kctlf696fgrfnt@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 04 10:57:14 GMT Lines: 36 Message-ID: <405ae674$0$3050$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=Ag_62L@c_C^iU\h3IX_EOZ0R]m=BkYWIW:6bU3OT9S9Z=amkMgjoZlWaRAVNS:^U:_VlUegI[6jgWj_dFm32bNEW X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168434 In article <75ml505094g46pb7udn4kctlf696fgrfnt@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote: >On 19 Mar 2004 02:15:52 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers, Rich Alderson > wrote: > >>glen herrmannsfeldt writes: >> >>> Brian Inglis wrote: >> >>>> Could possibly have used RAD50 (aka MOD40) rather than sixbit? >> >>> 18 bits is three sixbit characters. RAD40 is used by RT11, >>> among others, to store three characters in 16 bits. >> >>Yes, and has been used even longer on the PDP-6 and -10 in symbol tables to >>store 6 characters in 32 bits, with a 4-bit code for type of symbol, so it's >>not impossible that it might have been used in PPN's--just less likely. > >It was used extensively on 18 bit PDP-15 DEC OSes (and possibly also >-9/-7/-4/-1 OSes if DEC supplied any?), as that left a couple of bits >spare for other purposes. The native character set was 5x7 ASCII like >the 6/10 series, and I don't remember sixbit characters being used in >the -15 software, so I wouldn't be surprised if the -10 software had >similarities, and like a number of other DEC systems, filenames were >packed in RAD50, IIRC, BICBW. > The linkers used RAD50, IIRC, so MACRO must have, for symbols. Filenames on the -10 were SIXBIT. So the filename used one 36-bit word and the extension used half of a second 36-bit word. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <75ml505094g46pb7udn4kctlf696fgrfnt@4ax.com> References: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 11:45:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1079696744 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:45:44 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:45:44 MST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168430 On 19 Mar 2004 02:15:52 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers, Rich Alderson wrote: >glen herrmannsfeldt writes: > >> Brian Inglis wrote: > >>> Could possibly have used RAD50 (aka MOD40) rather than sixbit? > >> 18 bits is three sixbit characters. RAD40 is used by RT11, >> among others, to store three characters in 16 bits. > >Yes, and has been used even longer on the PDP-6 and -10 in symbol tables to >store 6 characters in 32 bits, with a 4-bit code for type of symbol, so it's >not impossible that it might have been used in PPN's--just less likely. It was used extensively on 18 bit PDP-15 DEC OSes (and possibly also -9/-7/-4/-1 OSes if DEC supplied any?), as that left a couple of bits spare for other purposes. The native character set was 5x7 ASCII like the 6/10 series, and I don't remember sixbit characters being used in the -15 software, so I wouldn't be surprised if the -10 software had similarities, and like a number of other DEC systems, filenames were packed in RAD50, IIRC, BICBW. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:07:17 -0600 From: John Sauter Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:07:17 -0500 Organization: System Eyes Computer Store Reply-To: J_Sauter@Empire.Net Message-ID: <2ofp50d1hjkmh6jtob81b17mt8cld59mui@4ax.com> References: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> <75ml505094g46pb7udn4kctlf696fgrfnt@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.21.249.122 X-Trace: sv3-jgyfZDuxTCwheTtKd82sDN4QFB2u5cZUNWcMNDrDwa+fl4mmwmxwc0pTgQCcvP2Kdnw8e1jG5ZMm/DZ!vLCHsMNCUfm53j562IFbemXm++Of5ZIYstrx2j3OmFDjtN4/tDB3AiXtsr5tlAEedbSEqWErKqin!dLAUYJfU+pAJzLpvPw5nzMDLng== X-Complaints-To: abuse@adelphia.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: copyright@adelphia.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.adelphia.com!news.adelphia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168556 Brian Inglis wrote: It [Radix 50] was used extensively on 18 bit PDP-15 DEC OSes (and possibly also -9/-7/-4/-1 OSes if DEC supplied any?), as that left a couple of bits spare for other purposes. The native character set was 5x7 ASCII like the 6/10 series, and I don't remember sixbit characters being used in the -15 software, so I wouldn't be surprised if the -10 software had similarities, and like a number of other DEC systems, filenames were packed in RAD50, IIRC, BICBW. John Sauter responded: I don't recall Radix 50 being used at all on the PDP-1. It used 6 bit codes packed three to a word, but I believe the coding was based on an old off-line paper tape machine, and called something like FioDEC. I am not sure if the console typewriter used that code or a different one. At Stanford we did not prepare programs off-line using paper tape; instead we used on-line Philco displays, which employed yet another character set, slightly related to ASCII. John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) ###### From: Mark Crispin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp10 Subject: Re: WAITS from SAIL? Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:44:41 -0800 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <18qk50t3dbesgnh0o6tadhrpssiq1h7k7b@4ax.com> <75ml505094g46pb7udn4kctlf696fgrfnt@4ax.com> <2ofp50d1hjkmh6jtob81b17mt8cld59mui@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shiva0.cac.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Trace: nntp1.u.washington.edu 1079847883 24406 (None) 140.142.17.38 X-Complaints-To: help@cac.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <2ofp50d1hjkmh6jtob81b17mt8cld59mui@4ax.com> Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!140.142.17.34.MISMATCH!news.u.washington.edu!shiva0.cac.washington.edu!mrc Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:168587 AFAIK, RADIX 50 was only used for symbol tables on the PDP-10. Filenames were either SIXBIT (ITS, 10/50, TOPS-10, WAITS) or ASCII (Tenex, TOPS-20). -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum.