From: linf@parsons.edu (Frank L) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: 25 Feb 2004 22:35:27 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.246.174.13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077777327 4638 127.0.0.1 (26 Feb 2004 06:35:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 06:35:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165475 Hi all, I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a microcontroller? Thanks in advance, Frank ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Lines: 20 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:12:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1077786742 206.146.76.206 (Thu, 26 Feb 2004 03:12:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 03:12:22 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165481 On 2004-02-26, Frank L wrote: > I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 > http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm > > There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique > connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't > find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... > > Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a > microcontroller? The keyboard and print mechansm are probably separate and only live in the same housing. I'd expect that the 55-pin connector has pins for power, keyboard row and column, and printer tilt, rotate, carriage forward, carriage backspace, carriage return, and paper advance. You'd probably have to disassemble it and trace out the wiring in order to figure out just how to drive it. Turning it into an ASCII Teletype-euivalent terminal would be a project, but a fun one if you're into such things. ###### From: "Gary A. Gorgen" Organization: Tunxis Design Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.126.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1077817544 24.7.126.247 (Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:45:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:45:44 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:45:44 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn52feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165554 Frank L wrote: > Hi all, > > I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 > http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm > > There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique > connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't > find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... > > Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a > microcontroller? > > Thanks in advance, > > Frank This looks like a console typewriter for the Autonetics RECOMP II. The origionals, had Executive typewriters, I think. I recall having several discussions with them about hooking it up as a time-sharing terminal for remote job entry. This was part of a master plan to use the RECOMP, throughout North American for accessing Tymshare. I think they discovered that model 33 teletypes were less expensive, & dropped the idea. -- Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS" | Tunxis Design Inc. tunxis@comcast.net | 10470 Pineville Ave. | Cupertino, Ca. 95014 | Phone: (408) 973-1542 ###### From: Peter Flass User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Message-ID: <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:56:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.194.63.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyroc.rr.com 1077843386 24.194.63.80 (Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:56:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:56:26 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-rtr.nyroc.rr.com!news-out.nyroc.rr.com!twister.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165616 Jay Maynard wrote: > On 2004-02-26, Frank L wrote: > >>I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 >>http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm >> >>There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique >>connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't >>find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... >> >>Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a >>microcontroller? > > > The keyboard and print mechansm are probably separate and only live in the > same housing. I'd expect that the 55-pin connector has pins for power, > keyboard row and column, and printer tilt, rotate, carriage forward, > carriage backspace, carriage return, and paper advance. You'd probably have > to disassemble it and trace out the wiring in order to figure out just how > to drive it. Turning it into an ASCII Teletype-euivalent terminal would be a > project, but a fun one if you're into such things. IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. ###### From: Warren Adams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:28:16 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <103tap8m16o1157@corp.supernews.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165633 This looks very much like the Selectric I remember on our GE-235 in the mid to late 60's. The round connector is the same too. On the GE-235, it was the console I/O, and transferred data both in and out through the same 6 bit register. The "N" register could be set for input, for output, or "off". Commanding it off immediately after an output (type) command, without waiting for ready, would explode the large electrolitic can capaciter in the Selectric. Good luck, and stand back! Warren Adams Frank L wrote: > Hi all, > > I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 > http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm > > There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique > connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't > find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... > > Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a > microcontroller? > > Thanks in advance, > > Frank ###### Message-ID: <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@nospam.plano.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.126.198 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s53 1077876384 24.1.126.198 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:06:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:06:24 GMT Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:06:24 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165657 Peter Flass wrote: > > Jay Maynard wrote: > > > On 2004-02-26, Frank L wrote: > > > >>I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: > >> > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 > >>http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm > >> > >>There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique > >>connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't > >>find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... > >> > >>Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a > >>microcontroller? > > > > > > The keyboard and print mechansm are probably separate and only live in the > > same housing. I'd expect that the 55-pin connector has pins for power, > > keyboard row and column, and printer tilt, rotate, carriage forward, > > carriage backspace, carriage return, and paper advance. You'd probably have > > to disassemble it and trace out the wiring in order to figure out just how > > to drive it. Turning it into an ASCII Teletype-euivalent terminal would be a > > project, but a fun one if you're into such things. > > IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get > information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice > property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that > the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. > I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:54:17 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.193.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1077879028 129.142.193.202 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:50:28 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:50:28 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!luth.se!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165658 "Charles Richmond" skrev i en meddelelse > > IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get > > information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice > > property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that > > the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. > > > I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. > It was also used as a keyboard/printer on a System/6 word processor. You could write to 8" disks and/or magnetic cards. Nico ###### From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:56:54 +0000 Organization: Posted via Forte APN, http://www.forteinc.com/apn/index.php Message-ID: Reply-To: Nick Spalding References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.646 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/2.0.0.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 X-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:05:01 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!fuller.zen.co.uk!195.70.164.134.MISMATCH!news.tdcnorge.no!news01.chello.no!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news20.forteinc.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165659 Charles Richmond wrote, in <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net>: > Peter Flass wrote: > > > > Jay Maynard wrote: > > > > > On 2004-02-26, Frank L wrote: > > > > > >>I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: > > >> > > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 > > >>http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm > > >> > > >>There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique > > >>connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't > > >>find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... > > >> > > >>Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a > > >>microcontroller? > > > > > > > > > The keyboard and print mechansm are probably separate and only live in the > > > same housing. I'd expect that the 55-pin connector has pins for power, > > > keyboard row and column, and printer tilt, rotate, carriage forward, > > > carriage backspace, carriage return, and paper advance. You'd probably have > > > to disassemble it and trace out the wiring in order to figure out just how > > > to drive it. Turning it into an ASCII Teletype-euivalent terminal would be a > > > project, but a fun one if you're into such things. > > > > IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get > > information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice > > property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that > > the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. > > > I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. They were standard on the 1410, 7010, 1440 and 1460. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:47:54 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1077893274 16150 128.29.24.210 (27 Feb 2004 14:47:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:47:54 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!quark.scn.rain.com!chilly.oregonvos.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165682 Charles Richmond writes: >Peter Flass wrote: >> IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get >> information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice >> property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that >> the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. >> >I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive typewriter, as did the PDP-1. The IBM 704x used a Selectric as an output-only console typewriter (the keyboard was still there but hidden under a metal cover), and most of the S/360 line used a Selectric mechanism for its console (marketed as a 1052 model 7). And, of course, the 2741 and 2742 terminals (among others) used Selectric mechanisms. Joe Morris ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:42:39 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.182 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1077896516 9053 208.244.111.182 (27 Feb 2004 15:41:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:41:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.tiscali.de!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news.cse.sc.edu!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165690 Joe Morris wrote in message news:c1nlaq$fom$3@newslocal.mitre.org... > Charles Richmond writes: > > >Peter Flass wrote: > > >> IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get > >> information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice > >> property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that > >> the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. > >> > >I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. > > That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive > typewriter, as did the PDP-1. The PDP-1 used a Frieden Flexowriter. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:16:31 -0600 From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: Multicians References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:16:30 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.46.140.163 X-Trace: sv3-UzRcaJnv1HHIZ418detOIC81ECc/AZbkf1GQEWVxiTgWvIKA3RCgozFOgUWXX+Ac6LsPRgIioH1fW7d!oF2HeTYMmW9LdGJBT1ApcJqDQggIlHwtQDZNro9MZkSraIR5DMphCNWyV2tIOMKRKXguMM+cCPxj!mEwwYRtd X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165694 Joe Morris wrote: > The IBM 704x used a Selectric as an output-only console typewriter > (the keyboard was still there but hidden under a metal cover), and > most of the S/360 line used a Selectric mechanism for its console > (marketed as a 1052 model 7). And, of course, the 2741 and 2742 > terminals (among others) used Selectric mechanisms. You can see a picture of the Honeywell 6180 at MIT with the console Selectric very prominent, at http://www.multicians.org/mulimg/h6180-doors-open-big.jpg There were three grades of Selectric mechanism available from IBM. The "light duty" was OEM'd to some terminal manufacturers, such as Datel, and these did not stand up to programmer use. The medium ones were in the 1050 and 2741 terminals we had a lot of at MIT. The heavy duty ones were used in machine consoles, etc, and by some terminal manufacturers like Selecterm who discovered it was worth it in lower repair costs. The consoles on 60s-70s GE/Honeywell large systems contained a huge amount of custom electronics to interface the Selectric I/O to a Honewyell data channel. All of the rotate/tilt code, buffering, timing, and translation to and from GEBCD had to work with no software and no firmware. And it did. In the late 70s I was involved with a Honewyell task force designing a new machine, and they started with the console: it was in some senses the hardest part. ###### From: "Gary A. Gorgen" Organization: Tunxis Design Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.126.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s03 1077899108 24.7.126.247 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:25:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:25:08 GMT Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:25:37 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!wn52feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165697 Joe Morris wrote: > Charles Richmond writes: > > >>Peter Flass wrote: > > >>>IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get >>>information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice >>>property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that >>>the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. >>> >> >>I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. > > > That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive > typewriter, as did the PDP-1. > Thanks for clearing that up, I was sure that the 1620 I worked on had an Executive console. I think IBM switched to Selectric's, soon after they appeard. The Executives had race condition problems. :-) One day I was watching a guy clear a key jam, stuck his hand in & cleared the jam, then jumped about 5 feet when it started typing again. Looked at his hands for a long time. Counting fingers I think. :-) > The IBM 704x used a Selectric as an output-only console typewriter > (the keyboard was still there but hidden under a metal cover), and > most of the S/360 line used a Selectric mechanism for its console > (marketed as a 1052 model 7). And, of course, the 2741 and 2742 > terminals (among others) used Selectric mechanisms. > > Joe Morris -- Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS" | Tunxis Design Inc. tunxis@comcast.net | 10470 Pineville Ave. | Cupertino, Ca. 95014 | Phone: (408) 973-1542 ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <103tap8m16o1157@corp.supernews.com> Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:40:49 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.64 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ca.mci.com X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1077901682 205.206.39.64 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:08:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:08:02 EST Organization: MCI Canada News Reader Service Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165702 In article <103tap8m16o1157@corp.supernews.com>, >Frank L wrote: >> I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 >> http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm >> >> There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique >> connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't >> find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... >> >> Perhaps directly hack into the keyboard encoder (if any) using a >> microcontroller? Then Warren Adams wrote: >This looks very much like the Selectric I remember on our GE-235 in the >mid to late 60's. The round connector is the same too. On the GE-235, >it was the console I/O, and transferred data both in and out through the >same 6 bit register. The "N" register could be set for input, for >output, or "off". Commanding it off immediately after an output (type) >command, without waiting for ready, would explode the large electrolitic >can capaciter in the Selectric. It looks like the same device was used in consoles for GE-400 and GE-600 and Honeywell H6000. I suspect only the H6000 will have much webbable information, if any do. >Good luck, and stand back! Ditto. Mel. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:11:45 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.162 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1077912661 29154 208.244.111.162 (27 Feb 2004 20:11:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:11:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:10:47 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!fuller.zen.co.uk!195.70.164.134.MISMATCH!news.tdcnorge.no!news01.chello.no!amsnews01.chello.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165721 > I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 > http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm > > There's no serial/parallel port or even power plug but a unique > connector. Anyone knows how to control it from a computer? I couldn't > find any related circuit diagram/look-up table online... Refer to the book "The Selectric Interface: A Hands-on Approach", by George Young, published by Wayne Green Publications, Peterborough, NH, 03458, Copyright 1982, Wayne Green Incorporated, ISBN 0-88006-051-4. It's a 125-page discussion of how to interface a Selectric to your 6502, 8080 or 6800-based home computer. Also, refer to the article "Build This Typewriter-to-Computer Interface", by Bill Green, in the December 1983 issue of the now-defunct "Radio-Electronics" magazine. Parts II and III of the article continue in the January and February 1984 issues. In addition to describing how to interface your home computer to an I/O Selectric, Green also describes how to install a set of solenoids into a standard Selectric typewriter to turn it into an I/O Selectric. I should point out that the procedures described in the above references are "rather involved," and are of the magnitude, and require much the same set of skills and attitude, as building yourself a circa-1980-style Z80-based home computer from scratch. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Lines: 9 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:26:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1077913581 206.146.76.206 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:26:21 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:26:21 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165725 On 2004-02-27, Geoffrey G. Rochat <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: > I should point out that the procedures described in the above references are > "rather involved," and are of the magnitude, and require much the same set > of skills and attitude, as building yourself a circa-1980-style Z80-based > home computer from scratch. With the advent of single-chip, fairly easy to program microcontrollers, can this perhaps be reduced to a few devices? One fairly good-sized Atmel AVR should be able to handle it, plus or minus signal levels... ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:57:01 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.162 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1077915377 1924 208.244.111.162 (27 Feb 2004 20:56:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:56:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.cse.sc.edu!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165730 > With the advent of single-chip, fairly easy to program microcontrollers, can > this perhaps be reduced to a few devices? One fairly good-sized Atmel AVR > should be able to handle it, plus or minus signal levels... Of course a modern one-chip machine could handle the processing job, even a small-sized AVR or PIC device could easily hack it. An ancient 8751 could do it, if you can still find one somewhere (). In fact, there's no real reason why one couldn't hack up a latch and some drivers to the output of a common-variety PC printer port, and write a little C to translate ASCII to whatever flavor of shift-rotate encoding is required, and do it that way. But that misses the point. The problem is twofold. First, you've got to build yourself the interface to drive the solenoids ("plus or minus signals levels..."). It's not hard, but it takes a fair bit of doing, especially if you don't have the parts immediately to hand in your junkbox. (Rather like homebrewing your own Z80-based computer if you don't happen to have a collection of wire-wrap sockets in stock.) Second, the referenced book and article don't give a cookbook "Heathkit-style" description of how to go about the task. There were many different "I/O Selectric" machines, each with different requirements, and in none of the aforementioned references does it show anything like the circular AMP M3000-series connector shown in the eBay ad. The references expect you to figure out stuff like necessary voltage levels, drive current requirements, connection pinouts and mechanical timings. Again, rather like homebrewing your own computer "back in ye olde dayes." As with many technical things, it ain't the doin' what's hard, it's the figgerin' out that'll getcha. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:09:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1077916151 206.146.76.206 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:09:11 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:09:11 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165733 On 2004-02-27, Geoffrey G. Rochat <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: > But that misses the point. The problem is twofold. First, you've got to > build yourself the interface to drive the solenoids ("plus or minus signals > levels..."). It's not hard, but it takes a fair bit of doing, especially if > you don't have the parts immediately to hand in your junkbox. Yeah. I'd expect that a small handful of open-collector drivers (possibly the high-voltage TTL variety (7407?)) would get the job done, but the book would provide better info. > Second, the referenced book and article don't give a cookbook > "Heathkit-style" description of how to go about the task. There were many > different "I/O Selectric" machines, each with different requirements, and > in none of the aforementioned references does it show anything like the > circular AMP M3000-series connector shown in the eBay ad. The references > expect you to figure out stuff like necessary voltage levels, drive > current requirements, connection pinouts and mechanical timings. Again, > rather like homebrewing your own computer "back in ye olde dayes." I'd expected it to be a bit more explicitly documented, so yeah, this gets harder. Do they at least go into how one would figure out this kind of stuff? > As with many technical things, it ain't the doin' what's hard, it's the > figgerin' out that'll getcha. Yup. ###### From: "Gary A. Gorgen" Organization: Tunxis Design Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.126.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1077917418 24.7.126.247 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:30:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:30:18 GMT Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:30:18 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.alt.net!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165734 Tom Van Vleck wrote: > > There were three grades of Selectric mechanism available > from IBM. The "light duty" was OEM'd to some terminal > manufacturers, such as Datel, and these did not stand up > to programmer use. The medium ones were in the 1050 and > 2741 terminals we had a lot of at MIT. The heavy duty > ones were used in machine consoles, etc, and by some > terminal manufacturers like Selecterm who discovered it > was worth it in lower repair costs. > One of my many hats at Tymshare was evaluating terminals. Anyone that built a terminal, that talked to a computer was talking to us. We were selling a lot of 33 teletypes. I think I had serial #0 of just about everything that was built. I remember the Datel, I don't think the one I had ever worked. There was one of the Selectric terminals, that was ASCII, I think? Was the IBM-1050 a Remote Job Entry terminal? -- Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS" | Tunxis Design Inc. tunxis@comcast.net | 10470 Pineville Ave. | Cupertino, Ca. 95014 | Phone: (408) 973-1542 ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:45:09 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.162 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1077918264 5687 208.244.111.162 (27 Feb 2004 21:44:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:44:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165737 > Yeah. I'd expect that a small handful of open-collector drivers (possibly > the high-voltage TTL variety (7407?)) would get the job done, but the book > would provide better info. More like discrete power transistors, or perhaps old Sprague ULN2000-series drivers. Depending on model, the Selectric's solenoids might momentarily eat something on the order of an Amp or so apiece, and according to Young magnets requiring 24V, 48V or 115V could be found on various models. And don't forget the snubbers to kill the back EMF coming off the solenoids as their magnetic fields collapse as you try to turn them off. This ain't *logic*, it's *interface*. That's that *other* databook... > I'd expected it to be a bit more explicitly documented, so yeah, this gets > harder. Do they at least go into how one would figure out this kind of > stuff? The book does, but in very much a "try-it-and-watch-for-smoke" style. The article expects you'll have only a few different possible flavors of Selectric to choose from, so it's more specific. No, I doubt the unit up on eBay is one of the specific models. > > As with many technical things, it ain't the doin' what's hard, it's the > > figgerin' out that'll getcha. > > Yup. BTW: The first installment of the article describes the microprocessor system used to control the Selectric. It's based around the Signetics 2650, the only time I can recall the use of that chip in a hobbyist rag. (If somebody knows of some other such appearance, other than in pinball machines, please inform my ignorance.) The 2650 was a pet favorite of mine. Most early 8-bit chip architectures were of a go-it-alone style (Intel's 8008-8080-8085), or looked over their shoulders at the PDP-11 (Motorola's 6800, to a lesser extent MOS Technology's 6502) for inspiration. The 2650's designers had their eyes on the DG Nova, and while it manifestly was *not* a Nova (DG was far too litigious for that, as Fairchild found to their cost.), there's a lot to it that would be conceptually familiar to a Nova programmer. ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:45:19 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1077918319 28790 128.29.24.210 (27 Feb 2004 21:45:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:45:19 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165738 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> writes: >Joe Morris wrote: >> That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive >> typewriter, as did the PDP-1. >The PDP-1 used a Frieden Flexowriter. Um...no. The Flexowriter was used to prepare input tapes offline, and to print output tapes offline (and to play a game of tic-tac-toe that IIRC it was Pete Sampson who worked up) but the console typewriter was an Executive. Try this link: http://www.dbit.com/~greeng3/pdp1/PDP1.26.jpg Or if you don't want to type it in, it's part of the pages in the first result you get from Google for a search argument of "PDP-1" Joe Morris ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:48:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1077918524 28790 128.29.24.210 (27 Feb 2004 21:48:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:48:44 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!bigboote.WPI.EDU!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165739 "Gary A. Gorgen" writes: >Joe Morris wrote: >> That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive >> typewriter, as did the PDP-1. >Thanks for clearing that up, I was sure that the 1620 I worked on >had an Executive console. The biggest difference between the I and II from the user's viewpoint was that the II had hardware arithmetic. The I required that you load low-core lookup tables before doing even simple addition. Joe Morris ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:59:13 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.162 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1077919109 6313 208.244.111.162 (27 Feb 2004 21:58:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:58:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165740 > >> That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive > >> typewriter, as did the PDP-1. > > >The PDP-1 used a Frieden Flexowriter. > > Um...no. The Flexowriter was used to prepare input tapes offline, and > to print output tapes offline (and to play a game of tic-tac-toe that > IIRC it was Pete Sampson who worked up) but the console typewriter was > an Executive. > > Try this link: > > http://www.dbit.com/~greeng3/pdp1/PDP1.26.jpg > > Or if you don't want to type it in, it's part of the pages in the first > result you get from Google for a search argument of "PDP-1" > > Joe Morris Fella, I sat in front of the PDP-1 at the MIT Electronics Research Society in Building 20, Room 20B-119, for about two years. I rather know something about PDP-1s, having spent some time in that machine's bowels trying to keep it running. The console typewriter for that machine was a Frieden Flexowriter. I rather know something about Flexowriters, too. I and the rest of the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island have in the past few months been digging through an early-60s Packard-Bell PB-250, and it too uses a Frieden Flexowriter for a console teletypewriter. Some of us actually had (and in some case still have) our hands on these old machines. And not everyone is as ignorant as you would like to believe. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:56:26 -0600 From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: Multicians References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:56:25 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.46.140.163 X-Trace: sv3-8dEmOY+tll9V5u4Pvi2xCIGyVj7TVWeiH0nqnuoSAEM5jqR9hkE7qlLTDZ1jhym2Md1tWBCqfVYniJh!8cSIRF+xwDJg3UdCb6jZf6BaNyQDx762w9MZ2//880rB4wDNcOR62hl3RoyuoTT8LfTxDgwa46Aw!izRUBWbo X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!212.23.6.1.MISMATCH!fuller.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!news.glorb.com!news.moat.net!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165743 Gary A. Gorgen wrote: > I remember the Datel, I don't think the one I had ever worked. > There was one of the Selectric terminals, that was ASCII, I think? I don't remember an ASCII Selectric. Seems unlikely. Would have taken a huge piece of haywire to convert the ASCII to the Selctric codes, which were not EBCDIC. > Was the IBM-1050 a Remote Job Entry terminal? No, it was a tank like terminal that predated the 2741. It was the first device I saw with the Selectric mechanism, and appeared at MIT about 1964.. maybe there were some used at the Summer Study in 1963. The 1050 had a desk that the printer unit was embedded in, and a kneeside box of electronics that meant that there was a nice listing desk to the right of the keyboard, and a lot of toggle switches above the keyboard. 1050s had many optional peripherals, maybe even paper tape, and you could get an attachable trailer that had extra devices, only saw a few of those. One of the things that made the 2741 so much better than the 1050 was that at MIT anyway, the 2741s came with pinfeed platens. Using a 1050 meant always being on guard against paper slippage and jams. ###### MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Message-ID: <8lQ%b.418566$xy6.2361838@attbi_s02> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.126.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1077924292 24.7.126.247 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:24:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:24:52 GMT Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 23:24:52 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.tiscali.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165747 Tom Van Vleck wrote: > Gary A. Gorgen wrote: > >>I remember the Datel, I don't think the one I had ever worked. >>There was one of the Selectric terminals, that was ASCII, I think? > > > I don't remember an ASCII Selectric. Seems unlikely. > Would have taken a huge piece of haywire to convert > the ASCII to the Selctric codes, which were not EBCDIC. > That was why I asked. Maybe someone said they COULD do it, not that they did. There was alot of that, back then. :-) > >>Was the IBM-1050 a Remote Job Entry terminal? > > No, it was a tank like terminal that predated the 2741. > It was the first device I saw with the Selectric mechanism, > and appeared at MIT about 1964.. maybe there were some > used at the Summer Study in 1963. > > The 1050 had a desk that the printer unit was embedded > in, and a kneeside box of electronics that meant that > there was a nice listing desk to the right of the keyboard, > and a lot of toggle switches above the keyboard. > 1050s had many optional peripherals, maybe even paper tape, > and you could get an attachable trailer that had extra > devices, only saw a few of those. One of the things > that made the 2741 so much better than the 1050 was > that at MIT anyway, the 2741s came with pinfeed platens. > Using a 1050 meant always being on guard against > paper slippage and jams. That sounds like what I'm thing about. Maybe I'm thinking Quick-Tran?? Back to the device in question. http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm "SPLAT 4734 ACCOMPLISHED" ?? Doesn't sound good. :-) It's hard to make out, but it looks like a pinfeed platen. -- Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS" | Tunxis Design Inc. tunxis@comcast.net | 10470 Pineville Ave. | Cupertino, Ca. 95014 | Phone: (408) 973-1542 ###### From: Peter Flass User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 00:37:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.194.63.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyroc.rr.com 1077928676 24.194.63.80 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:37:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:37:56 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-rtr.nyroc.rr.com!news-out.nyroc.rr.com!twister.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165752 Charles Richmond wrote: > I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. Are you sure? ISTR our 1620 had a non-typeball typewriter console like this photo: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1620.html Maybe there was a later upgrade to a selectric that I'm not aware of, or an RPQ. I remember when I first used the 1130, I thought the console was the nuts compared to the 1620. ###### From: freddy1X Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> Lines: 39 User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 00:53:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.77.81.238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net 1077929636 68.77.81.238 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:53:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:53:56 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!41226605!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165755 Peter Flass wrote: > Jay Maynard wrote: > > >> >> The keyboard and print mechansm are probably separate and only live in >> the same housing. I'd expect that the 55-pin connector has pins for >> power, keyboard row and column, and printer tilt, rotate, carriage >> forward, carriage backspace, carriage return, and paper advance. You'd >> probably have to disassemble it and trace out the wiring in order to >> figure out just how to drive it. Turning it into an ASCII >> Teletype-euivalent terminal would be a project, but a fun one if you're >> into such things. > > IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get > information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice > property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that > the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. The MDS( Mohawk Data Systems? ) Selectric typewriter I have contains a set of tilt and rotate solenoids built into it's mechanism. There are also contacts that produce this same output code when you press a key, and as well as when the solenoids activate the mechanism. A removable cover in the back of the case allows access to a rectangular connector of the same style as the buss & tag beasts that were popular on disk drives of that era. The drivers that I built consisted of 2 vector boards of around 8 transistors each, in a pull down arrangement. I think it ran around 48 volts drive. These were parts salvaged from a key-to-tape that my company was removing at the convenience of the customer, as we were putting in the latest & greatest( for 1979 ). MDS had already removed most of the logic boards already. I got the schematics( actual blueprints ) of the whole unit, the keyboard, power supply and miscellaneous other stuff. One of the other techs took the cabinet and tape bin. ( We were such vultures! ) Perhaps someone could use a scan of the original schematics? ###### From: "BERNARD W RULAND" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 171.75.12.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr31.news.prodigy.com 1077934968 ST000 171.75.12.117 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:22:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:22:48 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: SCSYQNONWRRYCPLY@BJDM^\BZJ]T@FLNLBWLOOAFJYWZUYICD^RAQBKZQTZTX\_I[^G_KGFNON[ZOE_AZNVO^\XGGNTCIRPIJH[@RQKBXLRZ@CD^HKANYVW@RLGEZEJN@\_WZJBNZYYKVIOR]T]MNMG_Z[YVWSCH_Q[GPC_A@CARQVXDSDA^M]@DRVUM@RBM Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 02:22:48 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.glorb.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr31.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!af260b38!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165770 The 1620-1 used a Mod B typewriter and the 1620-2 used the selectric. "Peter Flass" wrote in message news:EpR%b.95041$%72.90598@twister.nyroc.rr.com... > Charles Richmond wrote: > > I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. > > Are you sure? ISTR our 1620 had a non-typeball typewriter console like > this photo: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1620.html > > Maybe there was a later upgrade to a selectric that I'm not aware of, or > an RPQ. I remember when I first used the 1130, I thought the console > was the nuts compared to the 1620. > ###### From: use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:21:23 +0000 Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> Reply-To: kreuzlacheREMOVE ALL CAPITALS TO MAIL ME@unterderbruecke.de NNTP-Posting-Host: du-069-0041.access.clara.net (217.158.132.41) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077960298 56457107 I 217.158.132.41 ([88156]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!du-069-0041.access.clara.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165785 On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:47:54 +0000 (UTC), Joe Morris opined: |That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive |typewriter, as did the PDP-1. The Ibm typewriter used on 1620I was an IBM electric tripewriter model B1, definiteley did not have the executive feature of proportional spacing. -- k ###### Message-ID: <40407915.839905B4@comcast.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@nospam.plano.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.126.198 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1077960276 24.1.126.198 (Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:24:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:24:36 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:24:36 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165784 Joe Morris wrote: > > Charles Richmond writes: > > >Peter Flass wrote: > > >> IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get > >> information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice > >> property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR that > >> the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. > >> > >I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. > > That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive > typewriter, as did the PDP-1. > Yes, it was an IBM 1620-II. Although it was long ago (circa 1972), the 1620 was "open shop" by that time, *not* being the main computer for my university. (The main computer was a Sigma 7, IIRC.) The neophyte programmers got to punch their own cards, actually go into the room with the 1620, and read in the program themselves. Output was punched on 80-column cards. The output cards were taken to another room, where a dedicated reader/printer combination would read the cards and print out the contents. The language used was FORTRAN II. The 1620 had a hard disk, so subroutines were supported. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <40407C3D.2B2C1912@comcast.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@nospam.plano.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.1.126.198 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s04 1077961084 24.1.126.198 (Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:38:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:38:04 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:38:04 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165788 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > BTW: The first installment of the article describes the microprocessor > system used to control the Selectric. It's based around the Signetics 2650, > the only time I can recall the use of that chip in a hobbyist rag. (If > somebody knows of some other such appearance, other than in pinball > machines, please inform my ignorance.) The 2650 was a pet favorite of mine. > Most early 8-bit chip architectures were of a go-it-alone style (Intel's > 8008-8080-8085), or looked over their shoulders at the PDP-11 (Motorola's > 6800, to a lesser extent MOS Technology's 6502) for inspiration. The 2650's > designers had their eyes on the DG Nova, and while it manifestly was *not* a > Nova (DG was far too litigious for that, as Fairchild found to their cost.), > there's a lot to it that would be conceptually familiar to a Nova > programmer. > I don't know if it is a "hobbyist rag", but Radio Electronics had a three-part article on building a home computer based on the Signetics 2650. It was published in the April, May, and June issues in 1977. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 04 11:42:34 GMT Lines: 22 Message-ID: <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=cS;:2D8N\dEVNO6ULNf_XB0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JYB@BFOLFYaDa;EOPEcF]8Dj\E=, Joe Morris wrote: >"Gary A. Gorgen" writes: >>Joe Morris wrote: > >>> That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive >>> typewriter, as did the PDP-1. > >>Thanks for clearing that up, I was sure that the 1620 I worked on >>had an Executive console. > >The biggest difference between the I and II from the user's viewpoint >was that the II had hardware arithmetic. The I required that you load >low-core lookup tables before doing even simple addition. The 1620 I met was a II and it did not have a Selectric for its console. The flavor of the console was not hard-tied to the flavor of the CPU. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 04 12:39:43 GMT Lines: 63 Message-ID: <40409fa5$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=am[lkI:^MaS6S0io2g2UX]0R]m=BkYWIW:6bU3OT9S9ZkOV0FY6aXlXa;EOPEcF]8TlnAC^K5ZOVY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!212.23.6.1.MISMATCH!fuller.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165817 In article , "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: >> >> That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive >> >> typewriter, as did the PDP-1. >> >> >The PDP-1 used a Frieden Flexowriter. >> >> Um...no. The Flexowriter was used to prepare input tapes offline, and >> to print output tapes offline (and to play a game of tic-tac-toe that >> IIRC it was Pete Sampson who worked up) but the console typewriter was >> an Executive. >> >> Try this link: >> >> http://www.dbit.com/~greeng3/pdp1/PDP1.26.jpg >> >> Or if you don't want to type it in, it's part of the pages in the first >> result you get from Google for a search argument of "PDP-1" >> >> Joe Morris > >Fella, I sat in front of the PDP-1 at the MIT Electronics Research Society >in Building 20, Room 20B-119, for about two years. What years? > .. I rather know something >about PDP-1s, having spent some time in that machine's >bowels trying to keep it running. There is a difference between knowing about PDP-1s and knowing about a certain PDP-1. > .. The console typewriter for that machine was a Frieden >Flexowriter. So? Just because it hung off your PDP-1 does not mean that's what was sold with the system. What was sold with a PDP-1? You MIT guys usually put "unsupported" hardware on your systems ;-). That was your job. > ..I rather know something about Flexowriters, too. I and the >rest of the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island have in the past few >months been digging through an early-60s Packard-Bell PB-250, and it too >uses a Frieden Flexowriter for a console teletypewriter. Just because it uses it does NOT mean that's what came with the original system. > >Some of us actually had (and in some case still have) our >hands on these old >machines. And not everyone is as ignorant as you would like to believe. Mind your manners. Before you say something like this, you should check who you're talking to. If I'm reading your post correctly, you babysat the PDP-1 long after Joe. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 04 12:41:20 GMT Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4040a006$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=[M7J3=5@ifkZ3CHe^dQiAi0R]m=BkYWIg:6bU3OT9S9jkOV0FY6aXlha;EOPEcF]8dlnAC^K5ZOVi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165818 In article , Peter Flass wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >> I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. > >Are you sure? ISTR our 1620 had a non-typeball typewriter console like >this photo: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/1620.html > >Maybe there was a later upgrade to a selectric that I'm not aware of, or >an RPQ. I remember when I first used the 1130, I thought the console >was the nuts compared to the 1620. Don't you guys remember the thread when you talked about the 1620 console being a ball breaker rather than a ball user? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Gary A. Gorgen" Organization: Tunxis Design Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.7.126.247 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1077978135 24.7.126.247 (Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:22:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:22:15 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:22:15 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165825 use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com wrote: > On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:47:54 +0000 (UTC), Joe Morris > opined: > > > |That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive > |typewriter, as did the PDP-1. > > The Ibm typewriter used on 1620I was an IBM electric tripewriter model B1, > definiteley did not have the executive feature of proportional spacing. > Upper case only also? Executive IS incorrect the way we've been using it. tripewriter ? Well yes. :-) -- Gary A. Gorgen | "From ideas to PRODUCTS" | Tunxis Design Inc. tunxis@comcast.net | 10470 Pineville Ave. | Cupertino, Ca. 95014 | Phone: (408) 973-1542 ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40407915.839905B4@comcast.net> From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:3Q604x/g/A4vSngxrMfqJL7zdyk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:35:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.81.216.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1077986107 66.81.216.80 (Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:35:07 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:35:07 PST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn52feed!worldnet.att.net!207.217.77.102!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!7c2b8201!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165850 Charles Richmond writes: > Yes, it was an IBM 1620-II. Although it was long ago (circa 1972), > the 1620 was "open shop" by that time, *not* being the main > computer for my university. (The main computer was a Sigma 7, IIRC.) > The neophyte programmers got to punch their own cards, actually > go into the room with the 1620, and read in the program themselves. > Output was punched on 80-column cards. The output cards were taken > to another room, where a dedicated reader/printer combination would > read the cards and print out the contents. The language used was > FORTRAN II. The 1620 had a hard disk, so subroutines were supported. in the early '70s i got called into a number univeristy situations marketing 370/145 against sigma 7 as well as harris. i don't remember loosing any ... but that could just be the 30 years of memory fog. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: 28 Feb 2004 17:40:28 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <40407C3D.2B2C1912@comcast.net> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1077990028 19833 134.117.136.48 (28 Feb 2004 17:40:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2004 17:40:28 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@smeagol.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.netplace.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165856 Charles Richmond (richchas@comcast.net) writes: > "Geoffrey G. Rochat" wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> BTW: The first installment of the article describes the microprocessor >> system used to control the Selectric. It's based around the Signetics 2650, >> the only time I can recall the use of that chip in a hobbyist rag. (If >> somebody knows of some other such appearance, other than in pinball >> machines, please inform my ignorance.) The 2650 was a pet favorite of mine. >> Most early 8-bit chip architectures were of a go-it-alone style (Intel's >> 8008-8080-8085), or looked over their shoulders at the PDP-11 (Motorola's >> 6800, to a lesser extent MOS Technology's 6502) for inspiration. The 2650's >> designers had their eyes on the DG Nova, and while it manifestly was *not* a >> Nova (DG was far too litigious for that, as Fairchild found to their cost.), >> there's a lot to it that would be conceptually familiar to a Nova >> programmer. >> > I don't know if it is a "hobbyist rag", but Radio Electronics > had a three-part article on building a home computer based on > the Signetics 2650. It was published in the April, May, and > June issues in 1977. > > Actually, Radio Electronics was the only place I can remember that ran a 2650 construction article. SOmething like that stands out because of it's rarity, and nothing comes to mind in Byte or Kilobaud. Michael ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 12:55:00 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409fa5$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.174 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1077990857 10418 208.244.111.174 (28 Feb 2004 17:54:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:54:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165860 > Mind your manners. Before you say something like this, you should > check who you're talking to. If I'm reading your post correctly, > you babysat the PDP-1 long after Joe. Sanctimonious today, are we? Forget your little pill again, did you? Or has the long, cold winter made you crotchety and nasty? Or maybe it's just genetics... If you (or anybody else) would care to check things like the book "MACRO Assembly Program for Programmed Data Processor-1", Copyright 1962 by Digital Equipment Corporation, doc F-36BP, currently available on Al Kossow's site, you will see reference in there to the Frieden Flexowriter, not any form of IBM Selectric. And if somebody, somewhere, someday manages to find the documentation for the Expensive Typewriter, the interactive text editor used with the PDP-1, you will probably find in it notice about Frieden Flexowriters, too. In any case, given the vast amount of core available in a PDP-1, and the legion of Al Kotok clones available to do the work, I'm sure DEC would go to all the trouble to support two different character sets and two different character encodings for all their utilities and system programs. Why, one must wonder, would the software, that folks actually used, support a flavor of teletypewriter that wasn't used, and not support a flavor of teletypewriter that was used? Of course, this sort of analysis requires second-level research, research that requires folks to read and understand stuff, so not everyone is up to the task. Yes, I realize the "official" pictures in the PDP-1 Handbook, that Joe was so *helpful* in providing links to, don't show a Frieden Flexowriter. They show a much prettier IBM Executive teletypewriter. Then, again, we all know that all computer manufacturers, DEC among others, *always* shipped machines that looked exactly as they did in the pictures in their brochures and manuals. And never varied what they shipped in any way, because their proposed initial configurations were perfect for all needs when originally conceived by marketing, and forever thereafter. Heck, I've *never* worked for an engineering company that changed things after the brochures and manuals were printed. Or even the print sets. No, those things *never* change, because everything was always perfect right off the engineers' drawing boards. And, of course, code is never, ever revised, either. So, of course, one can always count on the surviving documentation to accurately express all the facts. No need to check with actual reality, it's bound in a book so it's gotta be right. Just as Aristotle was right about falling bodies, because his written words were official, and that Galileo upstart was just a no-good troublemaker. To think he could contest Aristotle with the evidence of his own eyes! The impudence of that man! ###### From: "BERNARD W RULAND" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 171.75.18.167 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr31.news.prodigy.com 1077993264 ST000 171.75.18.167 (Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:34:24 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 13:34:24 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: SCSYQNONWRRYCPLY@BJDM^\BZJ]T@FLNLBWLOOAFJYWZUYICD^RAQBKZQTZTX\_I[^G_KGFNON[ZOE_AZNVO^\XGGNTCIRPIJH[@RQKBXLRZ@CD^HKANYVW@RLGEZEJN@\_WZJBNZYYKVIOR]T]MNMG_Z[YVWSCH_Q[GPC_A@CARQVXDSDA^M]@DRVUM@RBM Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:34:24 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.glorb.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr31.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!af260b38!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165865 I was a FE for IBM and was trained on both the Mod 1 and 2 and all Mod 1's had "mod b" typewriters and all Mod 2's had selectrics. wrote in message news:40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com... > In article , > Joe Morris wrote: > >"Gary A. Gorgen" writes: > >>Joe Morris wrote: > > > >>> That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive > >>> typewriter, as did the PDP-1. > > > >>Thanks for clearing that up, I was sure that the 1620 I worked on > >>had an Executive console. > > > >The biggest difference between the I and II from the user's viewpoint > >was that the II had hardware arithmetic. The I required that you load > >low-core lookup tables before doing even simple addition. > > The 1620 I met was a II and it did not have a Selectric > for its console. The flavor of the console was not > hard-tied to the flavor of the CPU. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: ffylin@yahoo.com (fylin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: 28 Feb 2004 11:03:33 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.246.174.13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1077995013 17111 127.0.0.1 (28 Feb 2004 19:03:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:03:33 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165866 freddy1X wrote in message news:... > Perhaps someone could use a scan of the original schematics? Yes please! If you can post a link to it here for everyone who may be interested that would be excellent. fylin ###### From: Peter Flass User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40407915.839905B4@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 20:02:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.194.63.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyroc.rr.com 1077998576 24.194.63.80 (Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:02:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:02:56 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!diablo.voicenet.com!24.24.2.170.MISMATCH!news-rtr.nyroc.rr.com!news-out.nyroc.rr.com!twister.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165872 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > > in the early '70s i got called into a number univeristy situations > marketing 370/145 against sigma 7 as well as harris. i don't remember > loosing any ... but that could just be the 30 years of memory fog. > Not fair, you're mixing generations. I believe the Sigma machines are somewhat older technology than the 370. We replaced a 360/30 with a Sigma 6, which was a giant step up, but I'd guess it competed (well) against a /50. Now you've got me interested, I'll have to look it up. ###### From: glen herrmannsfeldt User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40407915.839905B4@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.18.177.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1078040797 24.18.177.15 (Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:46:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:46:37 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:46:37 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165906 Peter Flass wrote: > Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >> in the early '70s i got called into a number univeristy situations >> marketing 370/145 against sigma 7 as well as harris. i don't remember >> loosing any ... but that could just be the 30 years of memory fog. > Not fair, you're mixing generations. I believe the Sigma machines are > somewhat older technology than the 370. We replaced a 360/30 with a > Sigma 6, which was a giant step up, but I'd guess it competed (well) > against a /50. Now you've got me interested, I'll have to look it up. I remember the Sigma 5 from 1974, and I think the Sigma 7 was somewhat newer and fancier, but 1974 would have been about right for the 370/145. I still remember its line printer which made O's with a little loop, like cursive O's. -- glen ###### From: use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:23:52 +0000 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <45f340po4p1k4nhnerlflklhl0kk2mt3up@4ax.com> References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: kreuzlacheREMOVE ALL CAPITALS TO MAIL ME@unterderbruecke.de NNTP-Posting-Host: du-069-0043.access.clara.net (217.158.132.43) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1078050449 57233965 I 217.158.132.43 ([88156]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!du-069-0043.access.clara.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165909 On Sat, 28 Feb 04 11:42:34 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: |The 1620 I met was a II and it did not have a Selectric |for its console. The flavor of the console was not |hard-tied to the flavor of the CPU. You are very much mistaken. The 1620I console was a B1 typewriter, and the 1620II console was a selectric typewriter. It was impossible to have any other as the mechanical / electric / electronic interface to the console standard and and not alterable by any official IBM change. -- k, field engineer, 1620 systems 1961 to 1969. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:01:03 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: <4041e821$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=ikE0R7mG3_]BSY?2J=, "BERNARD W RULAND" wrote: DO NOT TOPPOST. >I was a FE for IBM and was trained on both the Mod 1 and 2 and all Mod 1's >had "mod b" typewriters and all Mod 2's had selectrics. That may be how they were sold new. Let me ask this: Could a Mod 1 be upgraded to a Mod 2. My understanding was that it magically (somehow) became a II if a disk became attached. I can assure you that, if that system had a Selectric connected to it, there wouldn't have been all the serious joking about ballbusting in the Center. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <45f340po4p1k4nhnerlflklhl0kk2mt3up@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:03:31 GMT Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4041e8b5$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=Vj0S5mL4f2SO>^K[4\bS;Z0R]m=BkYWIW:6bU3OT9S9ZCMXe^O7;S2[aRAVNS:^U:_=^_nfD1ZP7_ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165920 In article <45f340po4p1k4nhnerlflklhl0kk2mt3up@4ax.com>, use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com wrote: >On Sat, 28 Feb 04 11:42:34 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: > > >|The 1620 I met was a II and it did not have a Selectric >|for its console. The flavor of the console was not >|hard-tied to the flavor of the CPU. > >You are very much mistaken. The 1620I console was a B1 typewriter, and the >1620II console was a selectric typewriter. It was impossible to have any other >as the mechanical / electric / electronic interface to the console standard and >and not alterable by any official IBM change. heh. The director had a knack of convincing manufacturers of doing unofficial things. My statement of "II" is based on docs that were given out for classes and not hardware inspection. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409fa5$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:06:54 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <4041e980$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=^\40\Y, "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: > ...and the legion of Al Kotok clones Well, you just made my shit list. That list hasn't been updated in decades. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:39:53 +0000 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <76c440l1p5qck79buv1vjd6slgs0t15q97@4ax.com> References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <4041e821$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: kreuzlacheREMOVE ALL CAPITALS TO MAIL ME@unterderbruecke.de NNTP-Posting-Host: du-069-0306.access.clara.net (217.158.145.52) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1078080211 57067232 I 217.158.145.52 ([88156]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!du-069-0306.access.clara.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165956 On Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:01:03 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: |In article , | "BERNARD W RULAND" wrote: | |DO NOT TOPPOST. | |>I was a FE for IBM and was trained on both the Mod 1 and 2 and all Mod 1's |>had "mod b" typewriters and all Mod 2's had selectrics. | |That may be how they were sold new. Let me ask this: Could |a Mod 1 be upgraded to a Mod 2. My understanding was that it |magically (somehow) became a II if a disk became attached. |I can assure you that, if that system had a Selectric connected |to it, there wouldn't have been all the serious joking about |ballbusting in the Center. No, the mod I could not become a mod II. The Mod II could attach i/o such as card reader punch, (1622) and mag disk (1311). These i/os could not be attached to the mod I. Besides the enhanced i/o capability of the mod II, it also could do its sums by logic, rather than look up preloaded answers! -- k ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:49:10 -0600 From: "Russ" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:52:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.8.170.25 X-Trace: sv3-1bfQKP3eEhPhYasg7UMHycfUa3QMc9XD/XCKjOnqc2nCPktXeJEsTAlR9acERSJepa300hepFtYEy6j!VkqmLTOD+491FoCvH8Qe7c413cbKEHlUHhv70WBS9nEmCviCpi3b8Cv8wvs= X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165957 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote > > Yeah. I'd expect that a small handful of open-collector drivers (possibly > > the high-voltage TTL variety (7407?)) would get the job done, but the book > > would provide better info. > > > More like discrete power transistors, or perhaps old Sprague ULN2000-series > drivers. Depending on model, the Selectric's solenoids might momentarily > eat something on the order of an Amp or so apiece, and according to Young > magnets requiring 24V, 48V or 115V could be found on various models. And > don't forget the snubbers to kill the back EMF coming off the solenoids as > their magnetic fields collapse as you try to turn them off. > > This ain't *logic*, it's *interface*. That's that *other* databook... Uh, I noticed that there hasn't been another post from the guy who originally asked the question. Of course, when his original question started out with the observation that it didn't look like a Serial or Parallel interface, I figured we were dealing with someone who was pretty naive about these things. It ranks right up there with the book on "computer history" entitled "In the Beginning was the Command Line". To me, that's sort of like writing about the history of the automobile and calling it, "In the Beginning was the Automatic Transmission". When you lose your credibility right in the title, there's not much point in going on. ###### From: use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 19:13:54 +0000 Lines: 35 Message-ID: <72e440pd293etd5bkihmnvnvuom9254p22@4ax.com> References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <45f340po4p1k4nhnerlflklhl0kk2mt3up@4ax.com> <4041e8b5$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Reply-To: kreuzlacheREMOVE ALL CAPITALS TO MAIL ME@unterderbruecke.de NNTP-Posting-Host: du-069-0306.access.clara.net (217.158.145.52) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1078082252 57568494 I 217.158.145.52 ([88156]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!du-069-0306.access.clara.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165958 On Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:03:31 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: |In article <45f340po4p1k4nhnerlflklhl0kk2mt3up@4ax.com>, | use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com wrote: |>On Sat, 28 Feb 04 11:42:34 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: |> |> |>|The 1620 I met was a II and it did not have a Selectric |>|for its console. The flavor of the console was not |>|hard-tied to the flavor of the CPU. |> |>You are very much mistaken. The 1620I console was a B1 typewriter, and the |>1620II console was a selectric typewriter. It was impossible to have any |other |>as the mechanical / electric / electronic interface to the console |standard and |>and not alterable by any official IBM change. | |heh. The director had a knack of convincing manufacturers of |doing unofficial things. He would have needed more than a knack, more a magic wand. | |My statement of "II" is based on docs that were given out |for classes and not hardware inspection. That statement supports my experience, and my belief in the causes, of incorrectly trained personnel. I would love to see your documentation. Is there any chance you can still lay your hands on it? -- k ###### From: "BERNARD W RULAND" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <4041e821$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <76c440l1p5qck79buv1vjd6slgs0t15q97@4ax.com> Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 171.75.12.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr33.news.prodigy.com 1078088074 ST000 171.75.12.26 (Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:54:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:54:34 EST Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com X-UserInfo1: FKPO@MC@@S@WB_\[BJKXOTTDEZXXPGLLEXRZKB]MPXHDUWYAKVUOPCW[ML\JXUCKVFDYZKBMSFX^OMSAFNTINTDDMVW[X\THOPXZRVOCJTUTPC\_JSBVX\KAOTBAJBVMZTYAKMNLDI_MFDSSOLXINH__FS^\WQGHGI^C@E[A_CF\AQLDQ\BTMPLDFNVUQ_VM Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:54:34 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr33.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!af260b38!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165965 The Mod1 could support the 1622. I had several installed. We also had a MOD1 with a rpq that had 729 tape drives installed at Fort Bliss. wrote in message news:76c440l1p5qck79buv1vjd6slgs0t15q97@4ax.com... > On Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:01:03 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: > > |In article , > | "BERNARD W RULAND" wrote: > | > |DO NOT TOPPOST. > | > |>I was a FE for IBM and was trained on both the Mod 1 and 2 and all Mod 1's > |>had "mod b" typewriters and all Mod 2's had selectrics. > | > |That may be how they were sold new. Let me ask this: Could > |a Mod 1 be upgraded to a Mod 2. My understanding was that it > |magically (somehow) became a II if a disk became attached. > |I can assure you that, if that system had a Selectric connected > |to it, there wouldn't have been all the serious joking about > |ballbusting in the Center. > > No, the mod I could not become a mod II. The Mod II could attach i/o such as > card reader punch, (1622) and mag disk (1311). These i/os could not be attached > to the mod I. Besides the enhanced i/o capability of the mod II, it also could > do its sums by logic, rather than look up preloaded answers! > > -- > k ###### From: linf@parsons.edu (Frank L) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: 29 Feb 2004 14:36:34 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1ce92d3f.0402291436.1126d58e@posting.google.com> References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.246.174.13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1078094194 23468 127.0.0.1 (29 Feb 2004 22:36:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:36:34 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!dedekind.zen.co.uk!news.glorb.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165971 First of all thanks for everyone who replied. Your help is highly appreciated. > Refer to the book "The Selectric Interface: A Hands-on Approach", by George > Young, published by Wayne Green Publications, Peterborough, NH, 03458, > Copyright 1982, Wayne Green Incorporated, ISBN 0-88006-051-4. It's a > 125-page discussion of how to interface a Selectric to your 6502, 8080 or > 6800-based home computer. I found the character codes of the IBM 1131 console and the info is all good: Some more info on the hardware side will be great though. Does anyone here own a copy of the aforementioned book and is willing to sell or lend? I couldn't find any in my local libraries and various online used book sellers. Related Selectric/console service manuals are welcome too. You may reply privately to (remove nospam). Thanks, Frank ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <4041e821$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <76c440l1p5qck79buv1vjd6slgs0t15q97@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 04 10:52:07 GMT Lines: 37 Message-ID: <40432983$0$3077$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=?@5M76<^SOD]9oWW3:4Y5M0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JJVVTCd`jAhLaRAVNS:^U:O6GdE4WEKM5Mk2, use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com wrote: >On Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:01:03 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: > >|In article , >| "BERNARD W RULAND" wrote: >| >|DO NOT TOPPOST. >| >|>I was a FE for IBM and was trained on both the Mod 1 and 2 and all Mod 1's >|>had "mod b" typewriters and all Mod 2's had selectrics. >| >|That may be how they were sold new. Let me ask this: Could >|a Mod 1 be upgraded to a Mod 2. My understanding was that it >|magically (somehow) became a II if a disk became attached. >|I can assure you that, if that system had a Selectric connected >|to it, there wouldn't have been all the serious joking about >|ballbusting in the Center. > >No, the mod I could not become a mod II. The Mod II could attach i/o such as >card reader punch, (1622) and mag disk (1311). These i/os could not be attached >to the mod I. Besides the enhanced i/o capability of the mod II, it also could >do its sums by logic, rather than look up preloaded answers! > The system I met did table lookup. [^W^W^W emoticon eating its words]. My apologies for wasting bit space ;-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:33:50 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1078151630 7632 128.29.24.210 (1 Mar 2004 14:33:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:33:50 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166046 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> writes: >> Or if you don't want to type it in, it's part of the pages in the first >> result you get from Google for a search argument of "PDP-1" >Fella, I sat in front of the PDP-1 at the MIT Electronics Research Society >in Building 20, Room 20B-119, for about two years. I rather know something >about PDP-1s, having spent some time in that machine's bowels trying to keep >it running. The console typewriter for that machine was a Frieden >Flexowriter. I rather know something about Flexowriters, too. I and the >rest of the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island have in the past few >months been digging through an early-60s Packard-Bell PB-250, and it too >uses a Frieden Flexowriter for a console teletypewriter. >Some of us actually had (and in some case still have) our hands on these old >machines. And not everyone is as ignorant as you would like to believe. I'll stipulate that there may have been a PDP-1 with a Flexowriter as the console...but I used both of the PDP-1 systems in building 26 (one on the second floor next to the TX-0, and one on the first floor directly across from the machine room with the 7090), and they had an IBM Executive [1] as the console typewriter, as shown in the picture whose URL I posted. I don't recall one being in building 20 while I was there, but with all the things going on at the 'tute there were surely lots of computers that I never knew about, or it may have arrived after I left. [1] or at least it had all of the look-and-feel of an Executive model. Might it have been rebadged to Frieden, making both of us correct? Joe Morris ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:44:49 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <4040a006$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1078152289 7632 128.29.24.210 (1 Mar 2004 14:44:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:44:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!nntp.TheWorld.com!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166047 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >Don't you guys remember the thread when you talked about the 1620 >console being a ball breaker rather than a ball user? Yup. The mod I console (regardless of whether it was officially an "executive" model or just something that looked like one) had a traditional carriage that when was performed, would enthusiastically zip all the way to the right. No problems so far. The problem, however, was that the console was on a surface on the right side of the console, and was very near the right edge of the surface, meaning that when the carriage was at its rightmost position (i.e., at the left margin) it hung out over the edge. Now consider the consequences of having the carriage all the way to the left and a is performed...while someone is standing next to the right edge of the table. An Engineering Change was issued to install guards on the right side of the console to prevent any body parts from intruding into the space which might be occupied by the carriage. Joe Morris ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:08 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409fa5$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1078158488 11090 128.29.24.210 (1 Mar 2004 16:28:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:08 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166055 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> writes: >> Mind your manners. Before you say something like this, you should >> check who you're talking to. If I'm reading your post correctly, >> you babysat the PDP-1 long after Joe. >Sanctimonious today, are we? Forget your little pill again, did you? Or >has the long, cold winter made you crotchety and nasty? >Or maybe it's just genetics... >If you (or anybody else) would care to check things like the book "MACRO >Assembly Program for Programmed Data Processor-1", Copyright 1962 by Digital >Equipment Corporation, doc F-36BP, currently available on Al Kossow's site, >you will see reference in there to the Frieden Flexowriter, not any form of >IBM Selectric. Sigh. Nobody made any comments about a Selectric being attached to a PDP-1 as its console. The question at hand was the IBM Executive (a typebar design), not an Executive Selectric. And I'm looking at my own copy of F-36BP, page 1. The second paragraph begins with: A MACRO source program takes the form of a punched paper tape prepared using the standard FIO-DEC Flexowriter with the Concise III typeface as given in Appendix A, or using an on-line editing program such as EXPENSIVE TYPEWRITER. It's referring to offline tape preparation on a Flexowriter. An undated, but apparently earlier mimeographed version of the material in F36BP also refers to a Flexowriter only in the context of preparing input tapes. >And if somebody, somewhere, someday manages to find the >documentation for the Expensive Typewriter, the interactive text editor used >with the PDP-1, you will probably find in it notice about Frieden >Flexowriters, too. I'm looking at my Expensive Typewriter documentation (Memo PDP-5, dated 18 April 1962, signed by Steve Piner and Pete Sampson and approved by Jack Dennis). The word "Flexowriter" does not appear in it. And memo PDP-7 ("OPERATION OF THE PDP-1 OFF-LINE FLEXOWRITERS", dated 8 October 1062, begins "The flexowriter is an electric typewriter with attached paper tape reader and punch mechanisms [...] used for preparing, printing, editing, and reproducing English programs for the PDP-1." All of the documentation I've got (all original, btw) that makes reference to the console typewriter refers to it as either "the console" or "the typewriter". All of the documents that use the word "Flexowriter" (or, in the quote from PDP-7, "flexowriter") do so exclusively in the context of offline preparation or printing. ...which, as Barbara politely noted, in no way means that someone could not have later taken a Flexowriter and attached it to a PDP-1 in place of the original console. Joe Morris ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:35:56 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <4041e821$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <76c440l1p5qck79buv1vjd6slgs0t15q97@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1078158956 11090 128.29.24.210 (1 Mar 2004 16:35:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:35:56 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166057 use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com writes: >|That may be how they were sold new. Let me ask this: Could >|a Mod 1 be upgraded to a Mod 2. My understanding was that it >|magically (somehow) became a II if a disk became attached. >|I can assure you that, if that system had a Selectric connected >|to it, there wouldn't have been all the serious joking about >|ballbusting in the Center. >No, the mod I could not become a mod II. The Mod II could attach i/o such as >card reader punch, (1622) and mag disk (1311). These i/os could not be attached >to the mod I. Besides the enhanced i/o capability of the mod II, it also could >do its sums by logic, rather than look up preloaded answers! I'll agree that a 1620-I could not be upgraded (AFAIK) to a -II, but the -I had no problems talking to at least a 1622 reader/punch. I don't recall any documented restrictions on attaching a 1311 either (the docs are buried somewhere in my basement); the 1622 I know of that had a disk left my shop two days before I became an employee (did I scare it off?), and I don't know for sure what model it was, but at another shop we had a -I with no disk but with a 1622 as its only I/O device other than the console typewriter. Joe Morris ###### From: budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 1 Mar 2004 17:50:33 GMT Organization: Boston University Computer Science Dept. Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 1078163433 7844 128.197.12.3 (1 Mar 2004 17:50:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newstransit.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!elk.ncren.net!news.bu.edu!budd Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166061 In article , Geoffrey G. Rochat <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: > >Joe Morris wrote in message >news:c1nlaq$fom$3@newslocal.mitre.org... >> Charles Richmond writes: >> >> >Peter Flass wrote: >> >> >> IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get >> >> information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice >> >> property that each peripheral used its own character codings. ISTR >that >> >> the console used a "tilt-and-rotate" code. >> >> >> >I have seen a Selectric terminal used as the console of an IBM 1620. >> >> That would be a 1620-II. The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive >> typewriter, as did the PDP-1. > >The PDP-1 used a Frieden Flexowriter. In "Computer Engineering" (Bell et al), the PDP-1/A prototype (rectangular box "front panel") appears to have a flexowriter console: http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000157.htm However, the PDP-1/B, the first "production" machine purchased by BB&N is shown with what looks like an IBM console: http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000158.htm (I've heard BB&N purchased the machine after seeing it exhibited at the 1959 Joint Computer Conference in Boston). After the first three systems were built, a final design, the PDP-1/C was arrived at, it used 4 cabinets instead of three, and the console was integrated. This photo also appears to show an IBM console: http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000159.htm My understanding is that MIT recieved a very early production machine (as a gift?) so perhaps an older typewriter attached? Oddly, the footnotes on Daniel Smith's version of the TJ-2 word processor memo (developed at MIT): http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/tj2.html describes the PDP-1 console as: ###### From: budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 1 Mar 2004 18:11:22 GMT Organization: Boston University Computer Science Dept. Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> X-Trace: news3.bu.edu 1078164682 14927 128.197.12.3 (1 Mar 2004 18:11:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@bu.edu Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.bu.edu!budd Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166064 In article , Geoffrey G. Rochat <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: >Joe Morris wrote in message >news:c1nlaq$fom$3@newslocal.mitre.org... >> The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive typewriter, as did the PDP-1. >The PDP-1 used a Frieden Flexowriter. I believe both answers are correct. In "Computer Engineering" (Bell et al) shows the PDP-1/A (prototype) with a flexowriter: http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000157.htm A photo of the "PDP-1/B" (first production machine) at BB&N: http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000158.htm appears to show an IBM typewriter. I've heard the story BB&N purchased the machine right off the floor at the December 1959 Joint Computer Conference in Boston. The book says the system was delivered in November of 1960. Somewhere I also read the PDP-1 was the talk of the conference (it sold for "only" $150K). After building a third system, a new configuration, the PDP-1/C was arrived at (shown again, with an IBM typewriter); http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000159.htm MIT's PDP-1 was a early production system (and perhaps a gift?) so it may have been delivered with an older typewriter. Daniel Smith's annotated TJ-2 ("Type Justifier") program memo: http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/tj2.html has a footnote that reads: "Typewriter:" the PDP-1 console typewriter. This was an IBM electric typewriter to which a company called Soroban Engineering had added switches and solenoids capable of sensing and initiating keystrokes. This IBM typewriter was a traditional design with typewriter-style typebars (not a "golfball" Selectric). As was customary in typewriters, each typebar carried a pair of characters, one uppercase and one lowercase. The shift key raised or lowered the entire heavy type basket, selecting which of the two characters struck the ribbon. The Soroban mechanism was quite unreliable, and, in particular, often missed a case shift. However, it provided what in eighties terminology would have been called "true letter quality" printing. An additional feature of this unit was a two-color red-and-black ribbon. The PDP-1 debugger, for example, printed user commands in black and debugger responses in red. This is the only mention I've ever heard of an IBM on a PDP-1 at MIT (did MIT have more than one PDP-1?). All other accounts talk of a flexowriter (The TX-0, housed next door to the PDP-1 at MIT also used a flexowriter, although it used different character encodings) http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/friden/bodley.txt mentions: Soroban Engineering (Melbourne (?), Fla.) made very high-speed punches (400 char./sec) with very interesting synchronous mechanisms; Flexowriter punches were ~35 char/sec (? Frank?) max.) and asynchronous. (Flex. punched as soon as you told it to; Soroban gave you the timing, and you had to feed it pulses derived from their timing to drive its magnets.) Soroban also made readers and punches for very wide tape. Have forgotten, but I'm reasonably sure they made 40-channel devices. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409fa5$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 04 11:06:45 GMT Lines: 97 Message-ID: <40447e7c$0$3076$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=5N4mMmc4?0W4RO=>9gG=nU0R]m=BkYWIW:6bU3OT9S9Z071HXI_KC6[aRAVNS:^U:_=PThBe`L;T] X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166158 In article , Joe Morris wrote: >"Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> writes: > >>> Mind your manners. Before you say something like this, you should >>> check who you're talking to. If I'm reading your post correctly, >>> you babysat the PDP-1 long after Joe. > >>Sanctimonious today, are we? Forget your little pill again, did you? Or >>has the long, cold winter made you crotchety and nasty? > >>Or maybe it's just genetics... > >>If you (or anybody else) would care to check things like the book "MACRO >>Assembly Program for Programmed Data Processor-1", Copyright 1962 by Digital >>Equipment Corporation, doc F-36BP, currently available on Al Kossow's site, >>you will see reference in there to the Frieden Flexowriter, not any form of >>IBM Selectric. > >Sigh. > >Nobody made any comments about a Selectric being attached to a >PDP-1 as its console. The question at hand was the IBM Executive >(a typebar design), not an Executive Selectric. > >And I'm looking at my own copy of F-36BP, page 1. The second paragraph >begins with: > > A MACRO source program takes the form of a punched paper tape > prepared using the standard FIO-DEC Flexowriter with the Concise > III typeface as given in Appendix A, or using an on-line editing > program such as EXPENSIVE TYPEWRITER. > >It's referring to offline tape preparation on a Flexowriter. This makes more sense. Off-line prep was the habit of programmers waybackwhen because stand-alone time was the rarity in that day and age. When there are a dozen developers chomping at the bit to take a system stand-alone, all prep that can be done off-line will be done so that the precious stand alone time isn't wasted on clerical flavored work. I don't know about MIT practices, but most programmers back then were in the habit of having the "girl" do the prep work. MIT wasn't in any way a production biz; but I can't believe that the work habits and processes that were established within DEC didn't have its start in MIT's methods. I have memos here, which I think was the first stabs at establishing standards and the defaults of what things were to be called; and it's got to be from MIT. > >An undated, but apparently earlier mimeographed version of the material >in F36BP also refers to a Flexowriter only in the context of preparing >input tapes. > >>And if somebody, somewhere, someday manages to find the >>documentation for the Expensive Typewriter, the interactive text editor used >>with the PDP-1, you will probably find in it notice about Frieden >>Flexowriters, too. > >I'm looking at my Expensive Typewriter documentation (Memo PDP-5, >dated 18 April 1962, signed by Steve Piner and Pete Sampson and >approved by Jack Dennis). The word "Flexowriter" does not appear in it. > >And memo PDP-7 ("OPERATION OF THE PDP-1 OFF-LINE FLEXOWRITERS", >dated 8 October 1062, begins "The flexowriter is an electric >typewriter with attached paper tape reader and punch mechanisms >[...] used for preparing, printing, editing, and reproducing >English programs for the PDP-1." > >All of the documentation I've got (all original, btw) that makes reference >to the console typewriter refers to it as either "the console" or "the >typewriter". All of the documents that use the word "Flexowriter" (or, >in the quote from PDP-7, "flexowriter") do so exclusively in the >context of offline preparation or printing. > >....which, as Barbara politely noted, in no way means that someone >could not have later taken a Flexowriter and attached it to a PDP-1 >in place of the original console. You do notice that he didn't answer my question about when he working on this system. Knowing MIT types, somebody decided to "shorten" the development process by hooking a Flexowriter to the system, but my guess would be that this happened later on in the system's evolution. Changes to a particular CPU # can be just as interesting as changes to its product line. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <40409240$0$3087$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <45f340po4p1k4nhnerlflklhl0kk2mt3up@4ax.com> <4041e8b5$0$3091$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <72e440pd293etd5bkihmnvnvuom9254p22@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 04 12:54:34 GMT Lines: 59 Message-ID: <404497c0$0$3102$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=9\=Z\IZfk]?2V[Jo][@2_C3V]>QCI1WT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166166 In article <72e440pd293etd5bkihmnvnvuom9254p22@4ax.com>, use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com wrote: >On Sun, 29 Feb 04 12:03:31 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: > >|In article <45f340po4p1k4nhnerlflklhl0kk2mt3up@4ax.com>, >| use_reply_to_address_but_not@unusual.com wrote: >|>On Sat, 28 Feb 04 11:42:34 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com opined: >|> >|> >|>|The 1620 I met was a II and it did not have a Selectric >|>|for its console. The flavor of the console was not >|>|hard-tied to the flavor of the CPU. >|> >|>You are very much mistaken. The 1620I console was a B1 typewriter, and the >|>1620II console was a selectric typewriter. It was impossible to have any >|other >|>as the mechanical / electric / electronic interface to the console >|standard and >|>and not alterable by any official IBM change. >| >|heh. The director had a knack of convincing manufacturers of >|doing unofficial things. > >He would have needed more than a knack, more a magic wand. That's what the bits gods here tell me :-). >| >|My statement of "II" is based on docs that were given out >|for classes and not hardware inspection. > >That statement supports my experience, and my belief in the causes, of >incorrectly trained personnel. Or broads who are very confused. ;-) > >I would love to see your documentation. Is there any chance > you can still lay your hands on it? [emoticon reaches into bookcase scans manual] There isn't a designation, AFAIKT. Now I have no idea how or where I got the notion that a disk hanging off a 1620 made it a II. You would have to visit my documentation. It's another set of paper that I'm guarding with my life. It was a booklet put together by the Computer Center director when he taught machine language and SPS. It was made on a ditto machine (we haven't mentioned them in a while). There are even 407 listings of numbers inserted. They must be my programs. I wonder what I did with the cards? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <4040a006$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 04 12:59:30 GMT Lines: 41 Message-ID: <404498e8$0$3102$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=S89CE@Mh@1@WKWc00M6D4E0R]m=BkYWIG:6bU3OT9S9JC>\=Z\IZfkM?2V[Jo][@2OC3V]>QCI1WD X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166167 In article , Joe Morris wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>Don't you guys remember the thread when you talked about the 1620 >>console being a ball breaker rather than a ball user? > >Yup. The mod I console (regardless of whether it was officially an >"executive" model or just something that looked like one) had a >traditional carriage that when was performed, would enthusiastically >zip all the way to the right. No problems so far. > >The problem, however, was that the console was on a surface on the >right side of the console, and was very near the right edge of the >surface, meaning that when the carriage was at its rightmost position >(i.e., at the left margin) it hung out over the edge. Yup. I just got a strikingly clear picture of the machine room. In ours there was a very narrow passageway to the right of the console that allowed non-fat people to step up on a 3"(maybe 4") platform and walk "behind" the system. The disk was on the left end and there was some big huge box on the right, may breast high? I was never allowed to walk back there so I never stepped onto the platform. This was a room that was the size of a classroom (it used to be a classroom) that would have ~ 30 chairs in it. /BAH > >Now consider the consequences of having the carriage all the way >to the left and a is performed...while someone is standing next >to the right edge of the table. > >An Engineering Change was issued to install guards on the right side >of the console to prevent any body parts from intruding into the >space which might be occupied by the carriage. > >Joe Morris Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:57:35 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 103 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1078243055 22598 128.29.24.210 (2 Mar 2004 15:57:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:57:35 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!nntp.TheWorld.com!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166176 budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne) writes: >Geoffrey G. Rochat <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: >>Joe Morris wrote: >>> The 1620-I used a modified IBM Executive typewriter, as did the PDP-1. >>The PDP-1 used a Frieden Flexowriter. >I believe both answers are correct. As noted elsewhere in this thread, the it was the 1620-II that used a Selectric as its console typewriter. From external appearances this was the fastest way to identify whether a 1620 was a -I or -II. >In "Computer Engineering" (Bell et al) shows the PDP-1/A (prototype) >with a flexowriter: >http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000157.htm Verrry interesting; thank you. I wasn't aware of these photos, and this one certainly shows a Flexowriter as the hard-copy console device in the prototype. >A photo of the "PDP-1/B" (first production machine) at BB&N: >http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000158.htm >appears to show an IBM typewriter. I've heard the story BB&N >purchased the machine right off the floor at the December 1959 Joint >Computer Conference in Boston. The book says the system was delivered >in November of 1960. Somewhere I also read the PDP-1 was the talk of >the conference (it sold for "only" $150K). I can't make out enough of the typewriter in this picture to draw any firm conclusions; it's partly hidden by a chair, and the screening of the image obscures the typewriter's shape. If I had to guess I would say that it was still a Flexowriter; the left side of the housing seems to be more vertical (like a Flexowriter) than bulging (like the Executive). Compare the images of the typewriter in the previous (00000157) and next (00000159) pictures. One bit of trivia to see in this picture is the hexagonal shape of the housing for the CRT; while I can't say that it was the direct origin for it this shape became the outline of the DECUS logo. >After building a third system, a new configuration, the PDP-1/C was >arrived at (shown again, with an IBM typewriter); >http://research.microsoft.com/users/gbell/Computer_Engineering/00000159.htm That's what I used, and is the configuration that appears in both the DEC manual for the PDP-1 and in the images whose URL I cited upthread. I continue to kick myself daily for not taking my own pictures of the machine on which I spent *far* too much time. >MIT's PDP-1 was a early production system (and perhaps a gift?) so it >may have been delivered with an older typewriter. There may have been an earlier machine (perhaps in building 20?) with the prototype console, but both of the systems in building 26 were the design shown in the above URL link for the 1/C. One reason I can't speak for what might have been in building 20 was that I went there for only two reasons: to go to TMRC in 20E216 (?) and to go to the office where we could get 2-S certification paperwork for our draft boards (and where one could find a wonderful lady who had reportedly been General Hershey's secretary, and knew all the ins and outs of the draft regulations...) >Daniel Smith's annotated TJ-2 ("Type Justifier") program memo: >http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/tj2.html >has a footnote that reads: > "Typewriter:" the PDP-1 console typewriter. This was an IBM electric > typewriter to which a company called Soroban Engineering had added > switches and solenoids capable of sensing and initiating keystrokes. > This IBM typewriter was a traditional design with typewriter-style > typebars (not a "golfball" Selectric). [...] The footnote is from Smith, not from the memo. (And to answer his question, there was a TJ-1. I've got both of the memos in original "purple passion" spirit duplicator form.) >This is the only mention I've ever heard of an IBM on a PDP-1 at MIT >(did MIT have more than one PDP-1?). All other accounts talk of a >flexowriter (The TX-0, housed next door to the PDP-1 at MIT also used >a flexowriter, although it used different character encodings) Noted upthread: the first PDP-1 at the 'tute (AFAIK) was the one on the second floor of building 26, in a room separated from the TX-0 by what was probably once a closet where there were several Flexowriters (7-level units for the TX-0; 8-level ones for the PDP-1) for offline preparation and printing of tapes...*and* a mechanical *octal* calculator. Joe Morris ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Hamblen Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> <4040a006$0$3078$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> <404498e8$0$3102$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> Organization: Utterly Disorganized User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:40:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.69.50.52 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net 1078263658 207.69.50.52 (Tue, 02 Mar 2004 13:40:58 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 13:40:58 PST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!1f1d1bd7!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:166217 On 2004-03-02, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Yup. I just got a strikingly clear picture of the machine room. > In ours there was a very narrow passageway to the right of the > console that allowed non-fat people to step up on a 3"(maybe 4") > platform and walk "behind" the system. The disk was on the left > end and there was some big huge box on the right, may breast high? > I was never allowed to walk back there so I never stepped onto > the platform. This was a room that was the size of a classroom > (it used to be a classroom) that would have ~ 30 chairs in it. In the '60s, Hume-Fogg High School in Nashville, Tennessee, had a 1620 model I in a converted classroom. The air conditioning was weak so in the summer the machine would have thermal alarms and shut down. It had the console teleprinter and a card read punch for I/O. We usually punched the output and got a printed listing on an accounting machine. This was using Fortran II and a tiny version of Fortran called Gotran. Job scheduling was by writing your name on a list, just like a chain letter. When you got to the top of the list you could load your deck. ###### From: Julian Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 14:34:43 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <404e1c86$2$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <403F3161.A4CFCDDE@comcast.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.40/37 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.glorb.com!wn51feed!worldnet.att.net!216.168.1.162!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:167130 In , on 02/27/04 at 04:59 PM, "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> may have used oatmeal boxes, old string, and new, used, and recycled electrons to say (at least in part): > I and the >rest of the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island have in the past few >months been digging through an early-60s Packard-Bell PB-250, and it too >uses a Frieden Flexowriter for a console teletypewriter. Datamatic 1000 used a Flexowriter as the console input and output device. Paper tape reader was used for bootstrapping. -- Julian Thomas: jt@jt-mj.net http://jt-mj.net In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- A 2 year old's answer to everything: "No!" You can learn a lot from a 2 year old.... ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <3df9614284ad41304431afea95e333c9@news.teranews.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:27:24 GMT Lines: 41 From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ip-plus.net!newsfeed.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:167554 On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:45:44 GMT, "Gary A. Gorgen" wrote: >Frank L wrote: >> I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3463121737 >> http://www.gtp-tech.com/chad/ibm.htm >This looks like a console typewriter for the Autonetics RECOMP II. Full marks - I just bought 4 of these, for the princely sum of $25 each... they look like they've never been used! The badge on the front says they are indeed Autonetics, part number 43980-315-11, the first one I opened has an inspection tag dated Feb. 94. Inside the case they are indeed IBM 731 I/O Selectrics. Haven't opened one up yet, but it looks as though Jay was spot-on; there's no logic in there, the connector hooks up to raw keyboard row/column inputs, & tilt/rotate etc solenoid outputs. They have a distinctly military look about them. Apart from the mil-spec acronyms on various tags, they don't have feet - rather, slide-bar clamps that are clearly intended to *lock them down* to fixed positions on whatever stand or desktop they were placed. Shipboard? Missile silos? Anyone care to take a guess? And, does anyone by some miracle have an IBM 1052 or 1860 console printer/keyboard gathering dust? I'd like to replace the 1053 print-only console on my IBM 1800... http://www.corestore.org/1800-2.htm Mike http://www.corestore.org As I walk along these shores I am the history within... ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <9e0a2b0cfafcc62c3f0e4f7fafb3b025@news.teranews.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:16:51 GMT Lines: 16 From: Michael Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <3df9614284ad41304431afea95e333c9@news.teranews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed3.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:167564 On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:27:24 GMT, Mike Ross wrote: >And, does anyone by some miracle have an IBM 1052 or 1860 console >printer/keyboard gathering dust? I'd like to replace the 1053 >print-only console on my IBM 1800... Grrrrr typonese... that should of course read '...or 1816 console...'; the 1816 being the heavy-duty version of the 1052, intended specifically for the 1800 system Mike http://www.corestore.org 'As I walk along these shores I am the history within' ###### From: Rupert Pigott Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:52:08 +0000 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 10 Message-ID: <1079085124.646764@teapot.planet.gong> References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <3df9614284ad41304431afea95e333c9@news.teranews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1079085124 24376 80.177.7.220 (12 Mar 2004 09:52:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:52:04 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <3df9614284ad41304431afea95e333c9@news.teranews.com> X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 Cache-Post-Path: teapot.planet.gong!unknown@192.168.1.10 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:167605 Mike Ross wrote: > http://www.corestore.org/1800-2.htm Wow ! I have been looking for some good 1800 pictures after hearing so much about them in this NG ! Very handsome gizzards even by IBM's extraordinary standards. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: 27 Mar 2004 02:48:24 -0500 Organization: Jeff's House of Electronic Parts Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1080373705 13572 166.84.1.5 (27 Mar 2004 07:48:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 07:48:25 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!216.196.98.140.MISMATCH!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!panix!panix5.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:169258 >>>I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: >> The keyboard and print mechansm are probably separate and only live in the >> same housing. I'd expect that the 55-pin connector has pins for power, >> keyboard row and column, and printer tilt, rotate, carriage forward, >> carriage backspace, carriage return, and paper advance. You'd probably have >> to disassemble it and trace out the wiring in order to figure out just how >> to drive it. Turning it into an ASCII Teletype-euivalent terminal would be a >> project, but a fun one if you're into such things. >IBM 1130's used a selectric as the console. Perhaps you can get >information at http://www.ibm1130.org. This system had the nice >property that each peripheral used its own character codings I used and maintained 2 IBM system 1130s in college. - I did not consider it a "feature" that each 1130 peripheral was too dumb to use a standard character set, even if it was EBCDIC. The console keyboard was from a keypunch and gave hollerith card-codes. Perhaps the 1130 code chart would be useful since it gave the Selectric codes for the Console Printer: the tilt/rotate for printing, other lines for change ribbon color, return & linefeed, backspace, space, etc. But note that the characters are NOT IN THE SAME POSITIONS FOR ALL TYPING ELEMENTS: some "golfballs" needed totally different conversion. - looking at the ebay photos, I see a nylon cord is used to move the carriage. I tried to replace one when it snapped and despite the repair manual I never got it running again: the spiral tension spring somehow kept going in the wrong direction! - the 2 color ribbon (yay! red and black!) is cloth, which means the ink gets onto the typing element too. I'll finally get to sell my cleaning kit! ###### From: "David Wade" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I/O Selectric on eBay: How to use? Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:44:05 -0000 Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <1ce92d3f.0402252235.691af92e@posting.google.com> <_Aw%b.50880$um1.42269@twister.nyroc.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.168.51.233 X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1080402246 82543065 I 81.168.51.233 ([40235]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!81.168.51.233!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:169291 "Jeff Jonas" wrote in message news:c43bk8$hks$1@panix5.panix.com... > >>>I saw a bunch of I/O Selectric for sale on eBay: > > >> The keyboard and print mechansm are probably separate and only live in the > >> same housing. I'd expect that the 55-pin connector has pins for power, > >> keyboard row and column, and printer tilt, rotate, carriage forward, > >> carriage backspace, carriage return, and paper advance. You'd probably have > >> to disassemble it and trace out the wiring in order to figure out just how > >> to drive it. Turning it into an ASCII Teletype-euivalent terminal would be a > >> project, but a fun one if you're into such things. > I used to have a selectric which could be used as a "Centronics" printer. It used ROMs to convert from ASCII to the appropriate codes for the element. There were articles about doing this in one of the early computer magazines (Byte or Dr.Dobbs). I also thing the UK Amateur Computer Club ran some articles on doing this. If some one wants the info I may be able to dig it out. If you need to e-mail be try sending to my ham call, which is g4ugm via the ham radio web site, qsl.net. You can also look up my e-mail address there... Dave Wade g4ugm