From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Radioactive random number generators Lines: 9 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.41.7.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s53 1077293738 66.41.7.155 (Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!priapus.visi.com!orange.octanews.net!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!news.octanews.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!wn54feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164947 I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good random number generator. Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? Optional equipment? ###### From: iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:23:26 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.nartron.com (216.65.187.224) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077301109 49602356 I 216.65.187.224 ([97677]) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mail.nartron.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164963 On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT, "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: >I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good random number >generator. > > >Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? >Optional equipment? Well, there's http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ Most of the hardware (that I've seen) you might install on your own system uses Johnson noise, however. Regards, -=Dave -- Change is inevitable, progress is not. ###### Message-ID: <40367D3D.C47AF489@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:56:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.129.218 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1077314188 12.76.129.218 (Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:56:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:56:28 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164993 "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: > > I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good > random number generator. > > Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? > Optional equipment? Ever seen a Pulse Height Analyzer? They are special purpose computers. I have implemented them from such diverse components as tubes (valves) and Veeder-Root mechanical counters, discrete transistors and core memory, and a 64180 (z180) with dynamic RAM. The purpose is to measure a radioactivity spectrum. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040207 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> In-Reply-To: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Message-ID: <2RxZb.27107$4o.43219@attbi_s52> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.174.67.22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s52 1077324222 67.174.67.22 (Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:43:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:43:42 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:43:42 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn54feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165012 Dave Hansen wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT, "George R. Gonzalez" > wrote: > > >>I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good random number >>generator. >> >> >>Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? >>Optional equipment? > > > Well, there's http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ > > Most of the hardware (that I've seen) you might install on your own > system uses Johnson noise, however. I never realized they made noise, but then it's not like I ever listened for it before... Seriously, what _is_ Johnson noise? --Larry ###### From: Bill Turlock Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:09:33 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <4036D9FD.ED4BD3F1@sonnic.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165021 Dave Hansen wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT, "George R. Gonzalez" > wrote: > > >I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good random number > >generator. > > > > > >Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? > >Optional equipment? > > Well, there's http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ notice http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/how.html " ...without quantum mechanics atoms wouldn't be stable, so neither you nor I nor anything else made of atoms would exist, so despite all its complexity, fuzziness, uncertainty, and spooky action-at-a-distance, quantum mechanics is probably a Good Thing. However, I must note that quantum mechanics also permits Microsoft Windows to exist." ###### From: Bill Turlock Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:30:15 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <4036DED7.884BE4D0@sonnic.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165025 Dave Hansen wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT, "George R. Gonzalez" > wrote: > > >I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good random number > >generator. > > > > > >Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? > >Optional equipment? > > Well, there's http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ > > Most of the hardware (that I've seen) you might install on your own > system uses Johnson noise, however. hee hee even more http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/top10.html ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: 21 Feb 2004 07:21:26 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> <4036DED7.884BE4D0@sonnic.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1077348086 17109 134.117.136.48 (21 Feb 2004 07:21:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2004 07:21:26 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.yul.equant.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165028 Bill Turlock (BillTurlock@sonnic.net) writes: > Dave Hansen wrote: >> >> Well, there's http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ >> >> Most of the hardware (that I've seen) you might install on your own >> system uses Johnson noise, however. > > even more > http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/top10.html Very droll. Does Mr. Walker ever wonder why none of his calls to M$ tech support are never returned? I wonder why he didn't mention a smoke detector as source. There's a button of Americium ? which ionizes the air passing by, IIRC. My TAoCP (DEK) is still packed, but IIRC, he describes a machine using a true random source once used to pick lottery numbers in Britain. Did someone not post the camera-aimed-at-lava-lamp trick? Recently I read that the noise on-screen from an unused TV channel is partly from the microwave radiation left over from the Big Bang. Point a camera at that too. ###### From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:31:47 +0000 Organization: Posted via Forte APN, http://www.forteinc.com/apn/index.php Message-ID: <3age30hkr6ppnuvps60n1uq913hfkbf9dh@4ax.com> Reply-To: Nick Spalding References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> <4036DED7.884BE4D0@sonnic.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.640 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/2.0.0.1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news20.forteinc.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165039 Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote, in : > Bill Turlock (BillTurlock@sonnic.net) writes: > > Dave Hansen wrote: > >> > >> Well, there's http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ > >> > >> Most of the hardware (that I've seen) you might install on your own > >> system uses Johnson noise, however. > > > > even more > > http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/top10.html > > Very droll. Does Mr. Walker ever wonder why none of his calls > to M$ tech support are never returned? > > I wonder why he didn't mention a smoke detector as source. > There's a button of Americium ? which ionizes the air passing > by, IIRC. > > My TAoCP (DEK) is still packed, but IIRC, he describes a machine > using a true random source once used to pick lottery numbers in > Britain. An updated version of it still does. Ernie - Electronic Random Number Indicating(?) Equipment(?). > Did someone not post the camera-aimed-at-lava-lamp trick? > Recently I read that the noise on-screen from an unused TV > channel is partly from the microwave radiation left over from > the Big Bang. Point a camera at that too. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:50:46 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1077362999snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> <4036DED7.884BE4D0@sonnic.net> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1077382246 1572 10.0.0.1 (21 Feb 2004 16:50:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:50:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AuaKz-0000PD-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:50:45 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 26 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165078 In article ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" writes: > My TAoCP (DEK) is still packed, but IIRC, he describes a machine > using a true random source once used to pick lottery numbers in > Britain. It still is, although it's NOT "The National Lottery", but "Premium Bonds"; the difference being that if you don't win, your ticket still goes into next month's draw in perpetuity. The prizes are paid out of the *interest* on the money "invested". (And, for those who can put the maximum, which I believe is nowadays GBP30,000, into the scheme, it really can be an investment, paying a reasonable rate of return, and with the possibility of winning a million, rather than just GBP50.) The original ERNIE[1], introduced for the first draws in the late 1950s, did use a radioactive source. The second model, introduced in the 1970s, used the noise in a zener diode. I don't know what the present machine uses. [1] Electronic Random-Number Indicating Equipment -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: 21 Feb 2004 17:45:20 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> <4036DED7.884BE4D0@sonnic.net> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1077385520 6948 134.117.136.48 (21 Feb 2004 17:45:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2004 17:45:20 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@smeagol.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165084 Heinz W. Wiggeshoff (ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes: > Bill Turlock (BillTurlock@sonnic.net) writes: >> Dave Hansen wrote: >>> >>> Well, there's http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ >>> >>> Most of the hardware (that I've seen) you might install on your own >>> system uses Johnson noise, however. >> >> even more >> http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/top10.html > > Very droll. Does Mr. Walker ever wonder why none of his calls > to M$ tech support are never returned? > > I wonder why he didn't mention a smoke detector as source. > There's a button of Americium ? which ionizes the air passing > by, IIRC. > > My TAoCP (DEK) is still packed, but IIRC, he describes a machine > using a true random source once used to pick lottery numbers in > Britain. > > Did someone not post the camera-aimed-at-lava-lamp trick? > Recently I read that the noise on-screen from an unused TV > channel is partly from the microwave radiation left over from > the Big Bang. Point a camera at that too. > But that would just complicate things. "White noise" comes out of a radio when it's tuned to an unused frequency. You can just turn that into a digital signal and you've got a random signal. No need for a tv set, or a camera. Or reverse bias a diode, and you've got your locally generated noise source. Again, digitize it to get the needed signal. "Pseudo random" generators came about because they were easy to make using shift registers. For a lot of uses, they are fine, the more so when you make them long enoug. But they have the disadvantage they always run the same sequence from the start, so unless one is keeping it alive (or in software saving the state) when something is turned off, the action can be predetermined. But beyond that is there any reason why a radiactive source is more random than white noise? Michael ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: 21 Feb 2004 18:04:57 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> <4036DED7.884BE4D0@sonnic.net> <1077362999snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1077386697 10183 134.117.136.48 (21 Feb 2004 18:04:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2004 18:04:57 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.yul.equant.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165085 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} (bhk@dsl.co.uk) writes: > > It still is, although it's NOT "The National Lottery", but "Premium > Bonds"; the difference being that if you don't win, your ticket still > goes into next month's draw in perpetuity. The prizes are paid out of > the *interest* on the money "invested". ... Suddenly, I get the feeling that the Brits are the world's leading bettors. This scheme is news to me, but it seems not too far removed from the Lloyd's insurance racket, and somewhat more sophisticated than the "darby" betting. B-) Bookies over there are famous for putting odds on anything. What's the current on Lord Conrad Blackbottom and his paper empire? Will he lose the hand of the lovely Babs? Gaol time ahead? ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: 21 Feb 2004 18:12:02 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> <4036DED7.884BE4D0@sonnic.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1077387122 11240 134.117.136.48 (21 Feb 2004 18:12:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2004 18:12:02 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@smeagol.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165086 Michael Black (et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes: > ... > But beyond that is there any reason why a radiactive source > is more random than white noise? The reference given didn't compare the two sources. Instead, there was much discussion about the pure randomness of decay, and the practical consideration of accurately determining events in such a way that the geiger counter and the old Compaq 386 could time intervals. Interesting read. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators References: <40367D3D.C47AF489@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: sidd@situ.com () Originator: sidd@situ.com () Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 09:24:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.210.233.7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: fe1.columbus.rr.com 1077441892 204.210.233.7 (Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:24:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:24:52 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!195.34.132.48.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.chello.at!amsnews04.chello.com!amsnews01.chello.com!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feed5.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!news3.optonline.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!fe1.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165120 In article <40367D3D.C47AF489@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: > > >Ever seen a Pulse Height Analyzer? They are special purpose >computers. I have implemented them from such diverse components >as tubes (valves) and Veeder-Root mechanical counters, discrete >transistors and core memory, and a 64180 (z180) with dynamic RAM. >The purpose is to measure a radioactivity spectrum. > i used a Pulse Height Analyser (which could also be used in boxcar modes) together with a crystal of Co-60 as a thermometer we had one photodetector, abstracted from the hi energy groups so we scurried around the cryostat moving it from perpendicular to parallel to crystal axis counting decay gammas (we did have primary thermometry calibrated by NBS, now NIST and other CMN,resistance secondary thermometry, but it is always good to have a sanity check, especially one without any wires into the cryostat...) then the pulse height analyser broke and it took work to fix... but it was a nice box and we had schematics... ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <40367D3D.C47AF489@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.41.7.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s53 1077546897 66.41.7.155 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:34:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:34:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:34:57 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!news2.euro.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!wn54feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165233 This more belongs in a physics group, but here goes: I've read about unexpected correlations between photons-- even coming from stars, there's some correlation that doesnt make them truly random. Does this apply to radioactive decay also? Also IIRC some Zener diodes put out a somewhat "grainy" kind of noise, with bursts, again not fully random. Any ideas? ###### Message-ID: <403A3310.E84D29DE@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators References: <40367D3D.C47AF489@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:09:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.140.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1077556184 12.76.140.201 (Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:09:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:09:44 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165252 "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: > > This more belongs in a physics group, but here goes: > > I've read about unexpected correlations between photons-- even > coming from stars, there's some correlation that doesnt make > them truly random. Does this apply to radioactive decay also? We have such things as coincidence detectors. For example, shoot positrons into something and let them annihilate with electrons. The result is two 511 MeV gammas in opposite directions, with slight modifications to handle original particle velocities. We can find this distribution by scanning for coincidences at various angles. Other reactions produce other things, so one can mark the event, the other measure an effect. A one foot stub of shorted coax makes a fine wave shaper, and allows for roughly nanosecond coincidence measurements with the equipment of 50 years ago. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 17:56:17 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: <403a3df2.582543086@News.individual.net> References: <40364fe9.324959121@News.individual.net> <2RxZb.27107$4o.43219@attbi_s52> NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.nartron.com (216.65.187.224) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077558712 52067041 I 216.65.187.224 ([97677]) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mail.nartron.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165255 On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:43:42 GMT, Larry Elmore wrote: >Dave Hansen wrote: [...] >> Most of the hardware (that I've seen) you might install on your own >> system uses Johnson noise, however. > >I never realized they made noise, but then it's not like I ever listened >for it before... > >Seriously, what _is_ Johnson noise? Thermal noise. http://www.atis.org/tg2k/_johnson_noise.html Google for more. Regards, -=Dave -- Change is inevitable, progress is not. ###### From: Rupert Goodwins Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators Message-ID: <5atn30l7cgco25aarid1oq6ouh5ag1uv8t@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:14:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.35.99.165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1077671690 82.35.99.165 (Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:14:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:14:50 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!fuller.zen.co.uk!lon1-news.nildram.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!news-fe1!news-text.cableinet.net!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165371 On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT, "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: >I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good random number >generator. > > >Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? >Optional equipment? > > I'm not sure this qualifies as a 'good' random number generator, but Intel found that radioactive contaminants in the ceramic encapsulation for its 2107 16K DRAMS generated random numbers where one would much rather determinism ruled... From the oral history of Gordon Moore, at http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309054451/html/77-102.htm (some apparent OCR errors, formatting funnies and omissions fixed by me. Refer to original before using this! R] "AT&T, in building large memories with the Intel 4K DRAM, discovered during extensive tests that the information was occasionally corrupted, that is, some stored data was lost. This seemed to be a completely random phenomenon. But it was of considerable concern to AT&T because their computing systems did not have error correction circuitry to handle faults of this type. Any single bit error wouId crash the computer system. We launched a task force to investigate the problem. [it was] suggested to our engineers that perhaps the source of the problem was cosmic rays. An article written several years earlier by the scientists at the RCA Research Laboratory suggested that as devices approached the small size of the transistors that we were using, cosmic rays would be the ultimate limit on system reliability. In order to check out this hypothesis, we had to shield the circuits from most cosmic rays. We purchased forty tons of lead bricks and built an igloo to enclose the semiconductor memory systems under test. We soon realized that the CCD memories were much more susceptible than were the DRAMs, so our experiments switcher! to CCDs, where the time between dropped bits was much smaller. The lead igloo seemec! to have no effect on the rate of occurrence, but other things did. Gene Meieran, an Intel Fellow and an ardent mineral collector, showed that homing a piece of uranium ore close to the device increased the failure incidence dramatically. On the other hand, a relatively minor amount of shielding, such as a drop of epoxy on the semiconductor chip, seemed to eliminate the sensitivity. Rather than cosmic rays, the culprits causing the soft errors were alpha particles (positively charged atomic particles consisting of two protons and two neutrons] emitted in radioactive decay, some of which are emitted in the natural background radioactivity in the package parts themselves. Small contaminations of such elements as thorium and uranium in the alumina ceramic packages emit minor quantities of radiation. Occasionally one of the alpha particles would impinge on the silicon where a bit was stored, causing an avalanche of hole-electron pairs that destroyed the stored data..." R ###### From: "William L. Urton" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Radioactive random number generators References: <5atn30l7cgco25aarid1oq6ouh5ag1uv8t@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <5atn30l7cgco25aarid1oq6ouh5ag1uv8t@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 00:55:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.88.107.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.southeast.rr.com 1077929739 24.88.107.31 (Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:55:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:55:39 EST Organization: Road Runner - Columbia Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!twister.southeast.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165757 Rupert Goodwins wrote: > On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:15:38 GMT, "George R. Gonzalez" > wrote: > > >>I've seen several references to using radioactivity as a good random number >>generator. >> >> >>Has there ever been a computer where this was standard equipment? >>Optional equipment? >> (snip) You could incorporate random numbers from http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/