From: Yeechang Lee Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written Date: 6 Feb 2004 20:03:36 GMT Organization: Stanford 2nd Ward, Menlo Park California Stake Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c-24-7-53-32.client.comcast.net (24.7.53.32) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1076097816 35474713 I 24.7.53.32 ([91648]) X-Disclaimer: I don't speak for Arbor Advisors and it doesn't speak for me. X-Face: %^ToN=d7q{|gq79RFo$EU&4s!t3&qJH&JMvZ}HW:]|:izyAXGULq'amJchE3=H;~bLWLO0VM}0ei{:J;#j%o!Hv\Mh*r_.r^7cO-Sp(a@eFu`a!Wpw*,P~lUINX`!7T=*&$/&z>:q=FGhL)~("K6,IY[fa*Z wrote: > In those days, the ARPANet was officially for use only by people > with relevant DoD contracts. That included a lot of universities, > and the net was playground, remote access, discussion forum, and > file sharing tool for all sorts of students, ex-students, and people > who managed to talk their way into "guest" accounts at the more > liberal universities (like MIT, where you could try to log in an get > a "that username does not exist. Do you want to apply for an > account?" message, and subsequent account.) I'm curious what happened to such guest accounts without formal affiliation to the universities. Were they all eventually eliminated? Or do some/many still survive to this day? And speaking of MIT, what about people with longtime email addresses? Philip Greenspun is well known for having had the same email address since 1976 (presumably barring the shift over from bang paths). Compared to that, my @columbia.edu (Sep 1994) and @pobox (1996) addresses are still very much youngsters, even if older than perhaps 97% of today's net. Other candidates, besides Greenspun, for the longevity title? -- Read my Deep Thoughts @ PERTH ----> * 11:58:02 up 5 days, 14:08, 16 users, load average: 1.95, 2.10, 2.09 178 processes: 172 sleeping, 5 running, 1 zombie, 0 stopped CPU states: 16.6% user 5.7% system 77.5% nice 0.0% iowait 0.0% idle ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (windows-nt) Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:GvQMTbQL205r1ga9ajumjLvFqMo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 33 Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:52:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.31.152.119 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net 1076104366 67.31.152.119 (Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:52:46 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 13:52:46 PST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!7c2b8201!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163221 Yeechang Lee writes: > And speaking of MIT, what about people with longtime email addresses? > Philip Greenspun is well known for having had the same > email address since 1976 (presumably barring the shift over from bang > paths). Compared to that, my @columbia.edu (Sep 1994) and @pobox > (1996) addresses are still > very much youngsters, even if older than perhaps 97% of today's > net. Other candidates, besides Greenspun, for the longevity title? obviously i don't still have it ... but the internal network was larger than the arpanet/internet up thru possibly 1985. However, I may have the distinction of being one of the earlier people with email address on their business card ... circa 1978 (i still have about half box of them). i had email at csc (4th floor of 545 tech. sq .... mit multics was on the 5th floor) ... and got a home terminal in march of 1970 ... and pretty much have had home online access continuously since then. recent home terminal reference: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#12 various past postings on internal network, arpanet, internet: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.html i did have lynn@netcom.com (shell account) starting in 1993 .... but that was expired when earthlink.net bought netcom.com (or maybe it was after earthlink.net had bought mindspring which had previously bought netcom.com but not discontinued the shell accounts). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### Sender: CStacy@BOHR Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> From: cstacy@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) Message-ID: Lines: 172 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 23:24:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.163.194.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1076109858 68.163.194.147 (Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:24:18 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 18:24:18 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!8b1f9295!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163243 >>>>> On 6 Feb 2004 20:03:36 GMT, Yeechang Lee ("Yeechang") writes: Yeechang> Over in rec.arts.sf.written and some other places, >> Bill Westfield wrote: >> In those days, the ARPANet was officially for use only by people >> with relevant DoD contracts. That included a lot of universities, >> and the net was playground, remote access, discussion forum, and >> file sharing tool for all sorts of students, ex-students, and >> people who managed to talk their way into "guest" accounts at the >> more liberal universities (like MIT, where you could try to log in >> an get a "that username does not exist. Do you want to apply for >> an account?" message, and subsequent account.) Bill has a pretty good memory! The program he's referring to went like this: jrst [type dspc,/AThat name is not known. / sosge failct phaser jrst pwhel1] ;help him out type dspc,/AThere is no password associated with that name. / sosge failct ;don't let him hack us forever phaser ; a loser, hack him back pwhel1: ask /Do you wish to apply for an account?/ ret pjrst acoun1 ;give him help! For you PDP-10 programmers out there: The ^P is an escape code that's part of the API for the terminal-independant display system, a very cool feature in ITS. The kernel would translate that string into an intermediate representation in the output buffer. Then, upon output the TTY driver would interpret that into a program of the appropriate actions (which might have to be emulated on some underpowered terminals) using the escape codes for whatever type of terminal was connected (or re-connected) at the moment of output. ^PA means "beginning of fresh line if needed". Here's some of the help text from the program: /,/Applications for accounts can sometimes be done online. Do :ACOUNT to find out if online applications are being accepted. If they are, simply answer the questions which :ACOUNT asks you, and a USER-ACCOUNTS person will process your application quickly. If you are in a particular hurry, you may contact USER-ACCOUNTS people by sending network mail to USER-ACCOUNTS. You should come back later and check if your account has been approved by attempting to log in. / It was possible to get a guest account if you had some affiliation with another ARPANET host, or if you were an MIT student, or even if you were a totally unknown unaffiliated random high school student from another part of the country. There were not too many of those. I think we all knew each other. Anyway, all you had to do was come up with a good excuse about what you wanted to use the computer for (eg. what research you wanted to conduct), and seem like a reasonable person. Yeechang> I'm curious what happened to such guest accounts Yeechang> without formal affiliation to the universities. Yeechang> Were they all eventually eliminated? Yeechang> Or do some/many still survive to this day? They were mostly eliminated as time went on. Computers come and go, and their names get retired, and people move on to other places, and then they don't have any need of the old computer account anymore. And most places periodically clean up and get rid of old accounts, especially ones that are gratuitous. I can think of at least one friend, though, who had a guest account at Stanford back around 1979 who still has it today. I think she might have been affiliated, though, at some point in the middle of that time. Those were back in the days when you could count the number of computers in the world, and most of them cost several million dollars each, and there was certainly no public data network. There were few people in the world who had ever actually seen a computer. Having access to a computer was a big deal, but there were not lots of people who wanted to do that. I remember on the ARPANET when the Radio Shack TRS-80 came out for Christmas. We were suddenly swamped with people who had learned what a modem was, and had found out the dial-up numbers by reading articles posted on BBS systems. We had about three years with lots of guest applications, and had to put a whole new procedure in place to deal with them. Then things calmed down a little when the military put passwords on the ARPANET dialups. Not long after that, lots more universities were getting on the network (which was now called "Internet"). So there were plenty of other places to get guest accounts. Now we have personal computers, and the Internet is public. If you don't have a computer, you can use one at your public library, and read your email on Yahoo or Hotmail. So who needs a guest account? I think most universities do have guest accounts for people who never officially had anything to do with the place, are only affiliated by having a friend who works there or something. But guest accounts for totally unknown strangers is unheard of. Yeechang> And speaking of MIT, what about people with longtime email Yeechang> addresses? Philip Greenspun is well known Yeechang> for having had the same email address since 1976 Yeechang> (presumably barring the shift over from bang paths). There were no addresses "@MIT.EDU" until sometime after 1983. I don't remember when that started, but I think it was probably around 1986 or later. Back in the old days, there were no domains - just host names. If Phil's email address was always at the same lab at MIT, it would probably have been PHILG@MIT-AI. We never used UUCP at the AI lab, just the ARPANET, so there were no "bang paths". My email address there has been the same since 1979 (except of course that @MIT-AI turned into @MIT-AI.ARPA, then @AI.MIT.EDU, and now it's turning into @CSAIL.MIT.EDU). I think there are plenty of people who have ARPANET email addresses older than 1976. RMS probably had his email address there since 1971, and there are several people before than him who are still online with email addresses at that lab. Yeechang> Compared to that, my @columbia.edu (Sep 1994) and @pobox Yeechang> (1996) addresses are still very much youngsters, even if Yeechang> older than perhaps 97% of today's net. Other candidates, Yeechang> besides Greenspun, for the longevity title? It depends on what kind of "network" you are referring to. But if you're referring to the ARPANET/Internet, I think it would probably be someone from MIT, BBN, or UCLA. If you want to count UUCP as a network, just go look up the person who invented UUCP. I bet his uname is still the same, but the host name is probably entirely different. If you mean the oldest CONTINUOUS email address, still in use, regardless of network (or no network), and with substantially the same host name, then it's probably someone at MIT who had the same login name on the Project MAC system, or someone at IBM. I would guess someone at MIT (like Corbato or Minsky) though, for various mostly non-technical reasons. If you don't care whether the address is still in use, and just want the oldest one, and if you want to count any computer that had a message system that talked to more than one computer, those are much older than true computer networks. I think the first email address I had was in 1975 or 1976 on the STSC APL*PLUS system (which would exchange email nightly with its sister system across the room). I think that kind of thing was already fairly old-hat by then. (We wrote similar kinds of email systems as high school kids back in those days!) IBM already had some kind of large corporate computer network by then, didn't it? Someone here will tell. If you want to count any computer that had an "email" system where people could send and receive messages without both being logged in at the same time, even if it didn't talk to other computers, then you're going to have to go back to at least 1963. Probably into the 1950s. Long ago, we just called it "mail" -- never "email". "Email" is very new name for it. I remember when we were disgusted by the new word, and vowed that we would never refer to "mail" as "email". I think that lasted about 5 years before everyone gave in. But we still usually say just "mail" when speaking to each other. ###### From: never+mail@panix.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 03:14:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1076123643 25382 166.84.1.3 (7 Feb 2004 03:14:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 03:14:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Clueful-responder: echo "never-reply+panix=com" | tr "-+=" "+@." X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!panix!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163291 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >i did have lynn@netcom.com (shell account) starting in 1993 .... but >that was expired when earthlink.net bought netcom.com (or maybe it was >after earthlink.net had bought mindspring which had previously bought >netcom.com but not discontinued the shell accounts). I still have my Netcom address because after shells expired, I got an Earthlink account through a double discount via Sprint (USan telecom) and USAA (USan insurance). The Earthlink account allows up to eight e-mail addresses, another sheller figured out how to add netcom to the javascript on the "Set Up Another E-mail Address" page, and I claimed my old address while I was on that page. I still only get spam at that address though. -- Another good night not to sleep in a eucalyptus tree. ###### From: Bernie Cosell Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 09:30:52 -0500 Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 08:31:07 -0600 (CST) NNTP-Posting-Host: !^Smn1k-XV8i:f<&7g96).7WY (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!newsfeed2.fi.sn.net!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!newscene!novia!novia!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163344 Yeechang Lee wrote: } And speaking of MIT, what about people with longtime email addresses? } Philip Greenspun is well known for having had the same } email address since 1976 (presumably barring the shift over from bang } paths). I've been "cosell@bbn" [with whatever permutation of 'bbn' suited the mail-transport machinery of the time] for as long as there's *BEEN* ARPAnet email, since I was among the people at BBN fiddling with this stuff when Ray first hacked together the over-the-net transport stuff. I think it was 'cosell@bbnb' right at the start, then became 'cosell@bbn-labsb', then for a while it was "cosell@bbn.arpa" and I can't remember where it may have gone from there, but, indeed, "cosell@bbn.com" still works] /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 17:15:37 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1076174137 5225 128.29.24.210 (7 Feb 2004 17:15:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 17:15:37 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163382 cstacy@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) writes: >Computers come and go, and their names get retired, >and people move on to other places, and then they >don't have any need of the old computer account anymore. >And most places periodically clean up and get rid of >old accounts, especially ones that are gratuitous. ...especially after the "discovery" of the need for computer security, and the exposure represented by dormant accounts that nobody's checking. And sometimes it's good for the user. Eric Raymond published my e-mail address in _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ but it pointed directly to the UNIX host where my account existed. That machine no longer has any user accounts and long ago stopped forwarding e-mail addressed to it; if that hadn't been the case I suspect that I would receive significantly more spam than I already get. > Then things calmed >down a little when the military put passwords on the ARPANET >dialups. Not long after that, lots more universities were >getting on the network (which was now called "Internet"). >So there were plenty of other places to get guest accounts. That brings up a related question about ARPANET: when were the last TAC access cards issued? I've still got my last one around even though I can't put my hands on it at this instant to see what date might be printed on it. One bit of nice user-friendly design I recall from the TAC cards was that printed on the card *by the line printer that also printed the password* was a complete alphabet, so that you didn't have to guess which glyph meant what character. It also stated that passwords would never contain . (I don't recall which characters; probably letter "O" and digit "1" or something like that.) It's perhaps instructive about the size of the ARPANET that on the back of the TAC cards was a list of all of the telephone numbers for the dialup modems attached to ARPANET. It used a small typeface, but was still readable. Medium-size regional ISPs have more telephone numbers these days... And I'm also trying to recall just when the last of the ".ARPA" addresses disappeared. (I occasionally run across old business cards with my ARPANET address on them...) Joe Morris ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:26:46 -0600 From: Tom Van Vleck Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Organization: Multicians References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:26:42 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.46.140.163 X-Trace: sv3-dXLq/vvv/xMmwKtxlBRp6egq51KpQYjz+I80485STkpEcX4gbU3McYKcT5Sog93o0aMXZxgRMn0UtDL!62fcmSH339pTQjZrueLM2WuV4LAXXuXq3cp7d0zQcWW9xUxMJFUBjkSLDRE+wUA4pMDgEzc0gh63!E63Eu4CI X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163384 Christopher C. Stacy wrote: > If you want to count any computer that had an "email" system where > people could send and receive messages without both being logged in > at the same time, even if it didn't talk to other computers, > then you're going to have to go back to at least 1963. > Probably into the 1950s. Noel Morris and I wrote the MAIL command for CTSS at MIT in the summer of 1965. That command is the ancestor of Multics mail and Unix mail. There were similar mail commands on the other time-sharing systems in the mid 60s, such as the SDC system. > Long ago, we just called it "mail" -- never "email". "Email" is very > new name for it. I remember when we were disgusted by the new word, > and vowed that we would never refer to "mail" as "email". > I think that lasted about 5 years before everyone gave in. > But we still usually say just "mail" when speaking to each other. Just how I remember it. I wrote up my memories of early mail commands in http://www.multicians.org/thvv/mail-history.html including a discussion of what may have been the first spam. ###### From: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Supersedes: Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 17:40:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> X-Trace: grapevine.lcs.mit.edu 1076175618 45369 18.24.4.193 (7 Feb 2004 17:40:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lcs.mit.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 17:40:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!207.35.177.252!nf3.bellglobal.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163387 [I think this article did not make it out when I first posted it due to a news feeder crash. Trying again.] In article , Christopher C. Stacy wrote: >We never used UUCP at the AI lab, just the ARPANET, so there were >no "bang paths". My email address there has been the same since >1979 (except of course that @MIT-AI turned into @MIT-AI.ARPA, >then @AI.MIT.EDU, and now it's turning into @CSAIL.MIT.EDU). Already has. [csail.mit.edu] CSTACY Christopher C. Stacy AI Lab Other (Spacy) Hacking at all hours of the night for thrills Home: 266 Western Avenue, Cambridge, MA 02139; 354-3623 Yes, this is from (now the fourth generation of) INQUIR. >I think there are plenty of people who have ARPANET email addresses >older than 1976. RMS probably had his email address there since 1971, >and there are several people before than him who are still online with >email addresses at that lab. There are still some INQUIR entries that date back to the early 1980s. Somewhere I have, nearly intact, the complete contents of the third-generation INQUIR database. Even more scary, if you send mail to JRN@XX.LCS.MIT.EDU, it will still get delivered, assuming that there's still a valid forwarding address, and nobody more important has claimed that login. >If you mean the oldest CONTINUOUS email address, still in use, >regardless of network (or no network), and with substantially >the same host name, then it's probably someone at MIT who had >the same login name on the Project MAC system, or someone at IBM. >I would guess someone at MIT (like Corbato or Minsky) though, >for various mostly non-technical reasons. I would be betting on Bob Fano, although Minsky and Corby would also be obvious good guesses, as would Abelson, Sussman, Moses, Clark, and Saltzer. Knight reminds me that, in the old old days, users didn't have names, just numbers. (He would be another one for that ``same email address'' list, as he's been TK at AI nearly for ever.) -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | As the Constitution endures, persons in every wollman@lcs.mit.edu | generation can invoke its principles in their own Opinions not those of| search for greater freedom. MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - A. Kennedy, Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. ___ (2003) ###### From: "Mike Swaim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 17:54:09 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4026cba5$0$41128$be864849@news.hal-mli.net> Organization: HAL-PC/MyLinuxISP NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.170.184.210 X-Trace: 1076284326 news.hal-mli.net 41128 swaim/198.170.184.210:54282 X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-mli.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-mli.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163604 Yeechang Lee wrote: > And speaking of MIT, what about people with longtime email addresses? My old Rice account from ~1988 still resolves to me thanks to the magic of alumnai accounts and email forwarding. (I'm not sure that it counts since there were a few years in between that it wasn't active.) Also, thanks to the magic of the latest couple of Outlook viruses, it's sending emails out, too. -- Mike Swaim swaim@hal-pc.org Disclaimer: I sometimes lie. http://www.hal-pc.org/~swaim ###### From: David Eppstein Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:35:53 -0800 Organization: Information and Computer Science, UC Irvine Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> <54hdy2m2wy.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip68-4-109-134.oc.oc.cox.net User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: %L;%tM$D+%zkQ$zp8f/vAx*mr6T79jgxh,SC!$,8.r%HBe}KZ)iMb$tB.Z,30 3QLpj-NoP*NzsIC,boYU]bQ]H'y<#4ga3$21: Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!207.115.63.142!prodigy.com!agilent.com!sdd.hp.com!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!eppstein Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163657 In article , Emma Pease wrote: > > For non-professors, I think I'll nominate Marty Frost at Stanford, but > > there are probably others as well. Mere employees don't tend to get as > > well known. And Chuck Hedrick is still at Rutgers, isn't he? > > Not Knuth, he gave up email years ago. JMC and ME are still around. > SRI may have some oldtimers also. Knuth still reads some emails. I've exchanged email with him within the last couple of months. -- David Eppstein http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ Univ. of California, Irvine, School of Information & Computer Science ###### From: "Keith F. Lynch" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: 10 Feb 2004 22:47:05 -0500 Organization: United Individualist Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1076471225 13513 166.84.1.1 (11 Feb 2004 03:47:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:47:05 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163894 Joe Morris wrote: > And sometimes it's good for the user. Eric Raymond published my > e-mail address in _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ but it pointed > directly to the UNIX host where my account existed. That machine no > longer has any user accounts and long ago stopped forwarding e-mail > addressed to it; if that hadn't been the case I suspect that I would > receive significantly more spam than I already get. I doubt spammers harvest addresses from *books*. Why bother, when fresher ones can be found in machine-readable formats in newsgroup postings and web pages? > And I'm also trying to recall just when the last of the ".ARPA" > addresses disappeared. February 1990 was the last one I saw. (December 1982 was the first.) -- Keith F. Lynch - kfl@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/ I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread. ###### From: "Keith F. Lynch" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: 10 Feb 2004 23:01:45 -0500 Organization: United Individualist Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1076472105 13833 166.84.1.1 (11 Feb 2004 04:01:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 04:01:45 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163895 Yeechang Lee ("Yeechang") writes: > I'm curious what happened to such guest accounts without formal > affiliation to the universities. Were they all eventually > eliminated? Or do some/many still survive to this day? Christopher C. Stacy wrote: > They were mostly eliminated as time went on. I still have a MIT guest account. I just logged in again today. As you know, I never had any affiliation with MIT. I got my account after you, Devon, and Bruce visited my apartment sometime in the late 70s, and told me about it. (Thanks.) I'm still in the same apartment, and my terminal is still in the same place. It's a different terminal, though. > There were no addresses "@MIT.EDU" until sometime after 1983. I > don't remember when that started, but I think it was probably around > 1986 or later. I first saw .EDU addresses in April 1985. MIT.EDU in July 1985. -- Keith F. Lynch - kfl@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/ I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:50:47 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Lines: 30 Message-ID: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1076485848 11719 10.0.0.1 (11 Feb 2004 07:50:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:50:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1Aqp8x-00032I-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:50:47 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 29 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163908 In article eppstein@ics.uci.edu "David Eppstein" writes: > In article , > Emma Pease wrote: > > > > For non-professors, I think I'll nominate Marty Frost at Stanford, but > > > there are probably others as well. Mere employees don't tend to get as > > > well known. And Chuck Hedrick is still at Rutgers, isn't he? > > > > Not Knuth, he gave up email years ago. JMC and ME are still around. > > SRI may have some oldtimers also. > > Knuth still reads some emails. I've exchanged email with him within the > last couple of months. What has amused me is that having submitted bug reports on TeX et al through Barbara Beeton, they come back to me with DEK's _pencilled_ comments on the hard-copy of BB's mail to him. (Which reminds me: somewhere I've _still_ got one of his cheques; I must get around to framing it. I've often wondered what proportion of DEK's rewards remains uncollected by the recipient, on the basis that having the cheque is worth more than having the cash:-) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### Sender: mark@marka.linux.digeo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> From: Mark Atwood Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com Organization: EasyNews, UseNet made Easy! X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:12:37 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!140.99.99.194.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!easynews-local!news.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163909 bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: > framing it. I've often wondered what proportion of DEK's rewards remains > uncollected by the recipient, on the basis that having the cheque is > worth more than having the cash:-) It must make it a stone bitch to reconcile his checking account... -- Mark Atwood | When you do things right, mra@pobox.com | people won't be sure you've done anything at all. http://www.pobox.com/~mra ###### From: David Cowie Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:52:21 +0000 Organization: Chicxulub Memorial Panda Hunt Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-225-82-176.friaco.access.uk.tiscali.com (80.225.82.176) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1076532619 40254139 D 80.225.82.176 ([105025]) User-Agent: Pan/0.14.1 (This is not a psychotic episode. It's a cleansing moment of clarity.) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ppp-225-82-176.friaco.access.uk.tiscali.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163953 On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:47:05 -0500, Keith F. Lynch wrote: > Joe Morris wrote: >> And sometimes it's good for the user. Eric Raymond published my >> e-mail address in _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ > > I doubt spammers harvest addresses from *books*. Why bother, when > fresher ones can be found in machine-readable formats in newsgroup > postings and web pages? > _The New Hacker's Dictionary_ *is* on a web page. Searching the copy I downloaded reveals Joe Morris's address in the revision history. "and Joe Morris . " (I munged it - original is harvestable). -- David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net Containment Failure + 2139:53 ###### From: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:17:49 +0000 (UTC) Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: grapevine.lcs.mit.edu 1076534269 6675 18.24.4.193 (11 Feb 2004 21:17:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lcs.mit.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:17:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:163955 In article , David Cowie wrote: >Morris . " >(I munged it - original is harvestable). You say that as if your version isn't. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | As the Constitution endures, persons in every wollman@lcs.mit.edu | generation can invoke its principles in their own Opinions not those of| search for greater freedom. MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - A. Kennedy, Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. ___ (2003) ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:43:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1076708622 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:43:42 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:43:42 MST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator4-cogent.newsfeed.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newshosting.com!c01.iad01.newshosting.com!news3.optonline.net!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164154 On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:12:37 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Mark Atwood wrote: >bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >> framing it. I've often wondered what proportion of DEK's rewards remains >> uncollected by the recipient, on the basis that having the cheque is >> worth more than having the cash:-) > >It must make it a stone bitch to reconcile his checking account... He's just got to wait three or six months until the cheque is considered stale-dated and he knows he won't have to pony up the $2.56. Always wondered why people and organizations were so anal about getting invoices and having cheques redeemed promptly. If some one does not want to bill for goods or services you've received, or take the money you've given them, all the better for you. Don't waste time and money making phone calls or sending letters to remind them to charge you, you can always hope they'll forget totally! -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> Organization: me From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@via.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 66 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:00:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.4.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1076752802 193.217.4.55 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:00:02 MET Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164176 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:12:37 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Mark >Atwood wrote: > >>bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >>> framing it. I've often wondered what proportion of DEK's rewards remains >>> uncollected by the recipient, on the basis that having the cheque is >>> worth more than having the cash:-) >> >>It must make it a stone bitch to reconcile his checking account... > >He's just got to wait three or six months until the cheque is >considered stale-dated and he knows he won't have to pony up the >$2.56. >Always wondered why people and organizations were so anal about >getting invoices and having cheques redeemed promptly. >If some one does not want to bill for goods or services you've >received, or take the money you've given them, all the better for you. >Don't waste time and money making phone calls or sending letters to >remind them to charge you, you can always hope they'll forget totally! Businesses have an obligation to warn if there are no invoices for goods or services they have received. But according to the law here one oral warning well ahead of the statutory expiration of three years is sufficient. This warning can be given to any person responding officially for the company within business hours. Informing the switchboard or receptionist is plenty good enough. (there was a surpreme court verdict here about that. A receptionist's signature cost a company $30M). You are also in the clear if you have sent a check and have a receipt for delivery. Check in registered mail is good enough. If they lose the check or forget it it is _their_ problem. There is an important little negotiation trick here. If you have a dispute with someone, and offer a lower amount as settlement of a deficient delivery you can send a crossed check with a line of "this is payment for all outstanding claims on me" or similar. (unsure of exact wording to be used in Common-Law countries, consult a lawyer that knows banking). If they cash the check they have accepted your settlement, and you can stop any court or collection procedures in the bud. Any lower court will throw such a case out. Remember to accompany the check with a polite, but firm letter. If they don't cash in they have to respond properly within 6 months. In the mean time you can block collection attempts. Collection agencies hate these kinds of cases, and usually bounce them pronto back to the original owner as "disputed". Have used this one around 10 times. It works wonders. One charm of it is that these cases normally go directly to the corporate controller, and the case zooms right past the PHB's that may have been making the problems in the first place. In most cases the companies went right back and fixed the problem within a week. This may be a reason why normal people don't get regular checking accounts easily any longer. -- mrr ###### From: Bernie Cosell Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:22:11 -0500 Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 07:21:49 -0600 (CST) NNTP-Posting-Host: !\CN#1k-Vl-_VG(&8#rk?l!`5 (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164192 Brian Inglis wrote: } On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:12:37 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Mark } Atwood wrote: } } >bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: } >> framing it. I've often wondered what proportion of DEK's rewards remains } >> uncollected by the recipient, on the basis that having the cheque is } >> worth more than having the cash:-) } > } >It must make it a stone bitch to reconcile his checking account... } } He's just got to wait three or six months until the cheque is } considered stale-dated and he knows he won't have to pony up the } $2.56. This isn't true. There's no such rule [at least not in the US]. UCC 4-404 *allows* a bank to make payment for any check it chooses to and the customer *cannot* complain [and so has to keep sufficient covering funds in their account essentially forever]. [NB: the bank is *allowed* to refuse payment on a 'stale check' but the account holder has no recourse if the bank _does_ honor one. And as a practical matter, banks generally *will* honor any check, regardless of the date. I successfully cashed a check that was seven years old without a problem [a 1997 check cashed in 2003 when I found it in a box of old pay slips]] /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- ###### Date: 14 Feb 2004 15:57:00 +0200 From: kaih=92qeQlzXw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: <92qeQlzXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses X-Newsreader: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh13 R/C435 Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? Lines: 15 X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news1.dtag.de!westfalen.de!news.khms.westfalen.de!khms.westfalen.de!kaih Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164199 jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) wrote on 07.02.04 in : > It's perhaps instructive about the size of the ARPANET that on the > back of the TAC cards was a list of all of the telephone numbers for > the dialup modems attached to ARPANET. It used a small typeface, but > was still readable. Medium-size regional ISPs have more telephone > numbers these days... Over here, that's extremely rare - the trend goes to single numbers. Kai -- http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/ "... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it." - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: Organization: me From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@via.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <9jdl0c.9p21.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 51 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:30:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.217.4.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tele2.no X-Trace: juliett.dax.net 1076772602 193.217.4.55 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:30:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:30:02 MET Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.net.uni-c.dk!uninett.no!dax.net!juliett.dax.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164197 In article , Bernie Cosell wrote: >Brian Inglis wrote: > >} On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:12:37 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Mark >} Atwood wrote: >} >} >bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >} >> framing it. I've often wondered what proportion of DEK's rewards remains >} >> uncollected by the recipient, on the basis that having the cheque is >} >> worth more than having the cash:-) >} > >} >It must make it a stone bitch to reconcile his checking account... >} >} He's just got to wait three or six months until the cheque is >} considered stale-dated and he knows he won't have to pony up the >} $2.56. > >This isn't true. There's no such rule [at least not in the US]. UCC 4-404 >*allows* a bank to make payment for any check it chooses to and the >customer *cannot* complain [and so has to keep sufficient covering funds in >their account essentially forever]. [NB: the bank is *allowed* to refuse >payment on a 'stale check' but the account holder has no recourse if the >bank _does_ honor one. And as a practical matter, banks generally *will* >honor any check, regardless of the date. I successfully cashed a check >that was seven years old without a problem [a 1997 check cashed in 2003 >when I found it in a box of old pay slips]] Here the rules are : Within 3 months the cheque can be cashed under the bank's joint guarantee of clearing. (any check covered up to a nominal amount, printed on the cheque, usually around NOK 1000 (USD ~140)). Within 6 months all banks must clear it. . Within 3 years you must honor it. After 3 years it is not technically a cheque anymore, it is a lesser negotiable instrument called a "Veksel" here; this is a cash-collectible instrument with 30 days notice to pay. They can last forever, but you must state your claim at least once every 10 years. After 30 days these are considered expired, and can go directly to collection without any stopover in invoicing etc. -- mrr ###### From: "Mike Swaim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 11:21:43 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <402e5887$0$32422$be864849@news.hal-mli.net> Organization: HAL-PC/MyLinuxISP NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.170.184.210 X-Trace: 1076779143 news.hal-mli.net 32422 swaim/198.170.184.210:11594 X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-mli.net Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-mli.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164200 "Brian Inglis" wrote in message news:ftgq20d8u6n3qavhb7hv2176lf3656l5s0@4ax.com... > Always wondered why people and organizations were so anal about > getting invoices and having cheques redeemed promptly. > If some one does not want to bill for goods or services you've > received, or take the money you've given them, all the better for you. > Don't waste time and money making phone calls or sending letters to > remind them to charge you, you can always hope they'll forget totally! I've seen this happen with a fairly pricy support contract. The department that was responsible for the contract had to justify why they had so much unspent money every year, and ask for it again, in case they finally did get an invoice. The truely odd thing was that the company that was owed the money knew all about it. "You owe us $150,000!" "That's right. Send me an invoice, and we'll pay it." "..." -- Mike Swaim swaim@hal-pc.org Disclaimer: I sometimes lie. http://www.hal-pc.org/~swaim ###### Sender: CStacy@BOHR Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> From: cstacy@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:49:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.163.194.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc03.gnilink.net 1076791781 68.163.194.147 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:49:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:49:41 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!bigfeed2.bellsouth.net!news.bellsouth.net!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc03.gnilink.net.POSTED!8b1f9295!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164224 >>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:00:02 GMT, Morten Reistad ("Morten") writes: Morten> If you have a dispute with someone, and offer a lower amount Morten> as settlement of a deficient delivery you can send a crossed Morten> check with a line of "this is payment for all outstanding Morten> claims on me" or similar. (unsure of exact wording to be Morten> used in Common-Law countries, consult a lawyer that knows Morten> banking). If they cash the check they have accepted your Morten> settlement, and you can stop any court or collection procedures Morten> in the bud. Any lower court will throw such a case out. This is not true in the USA, where it is controlled by state law. ###### Sender: CStacy@BOHR Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: <40185001.59825496@news.telusplanet.net> <4018d5cd$0$27800$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> From: cstacy@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:58:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.163.194.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc03.gnilink.net 1076792317 68.163.194.147 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:58:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:58:37 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc03.gnilink.net.POSTED!8b1f9295!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164226 >>>>> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 17:15:37 +0000 (UTC), Joe Morris ("Joe") writes: Joe> It's perhaps instructive about the size of the ARPANET that on Joe> the back of the TAC cards was a list of all of the telephone Joe> numbers for the dialup modems attached to ARPANET. It used a Joe> small typeface, but was still readable. Medium-size regional Joe> ISPs have more telephone numbers these days... The above is almost true, but not quite. That was by no means a complete listing of the TAC dialup numbers. It also does not include the dialup numbers for any of the hosts connected to the ARPANET, which is how most users connected (not through a TAC). There was also a printed directory of all officially authorized users of the ARPANET (aka the "Defense Data Network"). It was about an inch thick, and (unlike a phone book) printed in very large type. It had the names, addresses, email, and other information for everybody. Of course, that was also only a small fraction of the people who were actually using the ARPANET. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:7d7kI0gfsXJRBfsLu9ktP8HKlFU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 444 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:14:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.31.152.93 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net 1076793268 67.31.152.93 (Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:14:28 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:14:28 PST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!7c2b8201!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164229 ... from long ago and far away ... Date: Tue, 16 Jul 91 12:24:28 IST From: Hank Nussbacher Subject: Network maps v2 To: tcp-ip@nic.ddn.mil This document is meant to catalog all known network maps in postscript format that are available via the Internet. One purpose is so that people can review other network maps for ideas and formats. The main purpose is for the newly forming RIPE mapping WG to determine what icons people use in their network maps and to create an RFC that standardizes the icons as well as the format that people will create for their network maps. Please send all corrections and additions to this list to: hank@vm.tau.ac.il CAVAET: Some Postscript maps won't print correctly on many laser printers. This is due to the files being in Apple Postscript rather than in standard postscript. Most maps reported here will print properly. ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number aarnet.edu.au 139.130.204.4 2) cd __________ pub/maps 3) get ___________.ps aarn-backbone.ps 4) What is included in your map? Backbone of AARNet network, link speeds, comment on topology 5) How often is it updated? Whenever something significant changes! Say, every three months, 6) Contact? P.Elford@aarnet.edu.au ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number ftp.cc.berkeley.edu 128.32.136.9 2) cd __________ pub 3) get ___________.ps ucb.map.ps 4) What is included in your map? The UCB IP routers 5) How often is it updated? Whenever I feel like it (actually I just created it recently). 6) Contact? cliff@garnet.berkeley.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number Arizona.EDU 128.196.128.233 2) cd __________ networks.maps 3) get ___________.ps uanet-prepped.ps 4) What is included in your map? Subnets of the University of Arizona's network (128.196.0.0). 5) How often is it updated? Once every couple of months or so. 6) Contact? Leonard@Arizona.EDU ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number NIS.NSF.NET 35.1.1.48 2) cd __________ maps 3) get ___________.ps ASIANET PS V 128 276 8 1/17/89 1:30:13 BACKBONE NEW-PS V 117 6765 50 10/01/90 14:41:43 BACKBONE OLD-PS V 94 2437 25 2/24/89 15:40:22 BACKBONE OLD2-PS V 94 2445 25 2/24/89 15:39:57 BACKBONE T1-PS V 106 6375 46 4/18/91 12:36:39 BACKBONE T1T3-PS V 108 7088 51 4/23/91 9:39:58 BACKBONE T3-PS V 117 6515 46 4/18/91 15:05:57 BARRNET PS V 124 1222 10 5/30/90 11:39:03 BITNET PS V 130 2870 85 1/17/89 1:30:20 BITNET4 PS V 130 3389 101 1/17/89 1:30:28 CERFNET PS V 876 3594 24 11/30/90 11:03:39 CICNET PS V 28 23597 68 2/11/91 18:16:12 CORNELL PS V 112 110 2 2/17/89 1:53:49 DC PS V 99 421 5 3/23/89 11:01:45 EARNET PS V 129 1447 43 1/17/89 1:30:33 ESNET PS V 94 2462 25 5/05/89 14:10:25 HARVARD MAP V 78 59 1 2/17/89 1:57:53 LOSNETTO PS V 106 1309 9 11/27/90 17:26:12 MERIT-MI PS V 88 6449 19 6/01/90 11:50:09 MIDNET PS V 132 730 6 2/17/89 1:52:58 NA_NETS PS V 94 2802 26 5/17/89 9:56:55 NCAR PS V 255 1602 11 2/17/89 1:52:46 NETMAP DOC V 78 1140 13 2/24/89 16:05:27 NETNORTH PS V 129 511 16 1/17/89 1:30:36 NYSERNET PS V 53 2475 9 2/17/89 1:56:40 PREPNET PS V 80 1856 9 2/22/89 9:59:39 PSC_IP PS V 80 3479 18 2/22/89 9:59:48 RICENET PS-LW V 57 2079 8 3/07/89 16:31:24 SCINET PS V 94 2536 26 4/28/89 14:23:35 SCINETDC PS V 100 280 3 4/28/89 16:40:31 SESQUINE PS-LW V 53 610 3 3/07/89 16:31:11 SURANET PS V 87 1158 13 3/23/89 11:01:40 SURAN289 PS V 96 468 4 3/07/89 16:29:10 TEXASIP PS V 96 405 4 3/07/89 16:28:32 UIUC PS V 93 904 5 12/28/88 14:10:34 UIUC-MAP PS V 72 3892 14 12/28/88 14:10:45 UMNET PS V 124 1343 9 5/30/90 10:14:22 UNETS-A PS V 94 3824 29 5/14/90 14:29:51 USENIX PS V 79 4916 17 2/10/89 9:29:59 USNETS PS V 94 3824 29 5/14/90 14:26:37 4) What is included in your map? 5) How often is it updated? 6) Contact? userhelp@nis.nsf.net ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number mcsun.eu.net 192.16.202.1 2) cd __________ ripe/maps 3) get ___________.ps Jun 4 10:25 europe.ps Feb 2 1990 map01-netnums.ps.Z Feb 2 1990 map01-speeds.ps.Z Jun 15 1990 map02-netnums.ps.Z Jun 20 1990 map02-speeds.ps.Z Jul 9 1990 map03-legend.ps.Z Jul 9 1990 map03-netnums.ps.Z Jul 9 1990 map03-speeds.ps.Z Aug 28 1990 map04-legend.ps.Z Aug 28 1990 map04-netnums-1p.ps.Z Aug 28 1990 map04-netnums-2p.ps.Z Aug 28 1990 map04-speeds-1p.ps.Z Aug 28 1990 map04-speeds-2p.ps.Z Nov 9 1990 map05-legend.ps.Z Nov 9 1990 map05-netnums-1p.ps.Z Nov 9 1990 map05-netnums-2p.ps.Z Nov 9 1990 map05-speeds-1p.ps.Z Nov 9 1990 map05-speeds-2p.ps.Z Feb 27 14:16 map06-legend.ps.Z Feb 27 13:55 map06-netnums.ps.Z Feb 27 13:54 map06-speeds.ps.Z Jun 4 10:25 us-europe.ps 4) What is included in your map? 5) How often is it updated? 6) Contact? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number nic.nordu.net 192.36.148.17 2) cd __________ maps 3) get ___________.ps Nov 9 1990 ch-map-netnums.ps Nov 9 1990 ch-map-speeds.ps May 26 20:35 europe.ps Mar 2 1990 fi-map.ps Mar 2 1990 fr-map.ps Nov 9 1990 map05-legend.ps Nov 9 1990 map05-netnums-1p.ps Nov 9 1990 map05-netnums-2p.ps Nov 9 1990 map05-speeds-1p.ps Nov 9 1990 map05-speeds-2p.ps Mar 14 1990 nl-map.ps Mar 2 1990 no-map.ps Nov 9 1990 nordunet.ps May 26 20:36 us-europe.ps 4) What is included in your map? 5) How often is it updated? 6) Contact? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number ftp.pitt.edu 130.49.253.1 2) cd __________ /prepnet/maps 3) get ___________.ps member_map_mmddyy.ps connectivity_map_mmddyy.ps 4) What is included in your map? member map is the geographical locations of our members and shows the backbone circuits; connectivity map shows how the routers are connected and the speed of the connections 5) How often is it updated? member map is updated each time we have a new member; connectivity map is updated each time a member is connected or a member changes some configuration 6) Contact? kf1b+@andrew.cmu.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number spot.colorado.edu 128.138.129.2 2) cd __________ westnet 3) get ___________.ps map.ps 4) What is included in your map? A logical map of Westnet, the Rocky Mountain states Internet regional network. 5) How often is it updated? 6) Contact? --------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number nisc.sesqui.net 128.241.0.84 2) cd __________ pub 3) get ___________.ps texas.ps 4) what is included in your map? The combined IP topology of Sesquinet and THEnet implemented as a single autonomous system of Cisco routers. No detail at the campus level is included. 5) how often is it updated? Whenever this topology changes. 6) Contact? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number vm.tau.ac.il 132.66.32.4 2) cd __________ hank.400 3) get ___________.ps ilanmap.ps 4) what is included in your map? The cisco router backbone in Israel, line speeds, router interfaces and subnet addresses. Certain headers and legends are in Hebrew. 5) how often is it updated? Whenever this topology changes. 6) Contact? ccyilan@technion.technion.ac.il ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number ftp.lcs.mit.edu 18.26.0.36 2) cd __________ nets 3) get ___________.ps get {LCS,AI,MIT,NEAR}.PS 4) what is included in your map? LCS: The lab where I work AI: Another lab closely connected in the same building MIT: MIT overall (slightly out-of-date, does not have new FDDI yet) NEAR: NEARnet, the New England Academic and Research network (an NSFnet regional) 5) how often is it updated? 6) Contact? map@lcs.mit.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number cs.ucl.ac.uk 128.16.5.31 2) cd __________ bbn 3) get ___________.ps icb_twb_map.ps 4) what is included in your map? A topology map of the Terrestrial Wideband Net (twbnet) and the International Cooperation Board Net (icbnet). 5) how often is it updated? 6) Contact? J.Crowcroft@cs.ucl.ac.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number nic.near.net 192.52.71.4 2) cd __________ maps 3) get ___________.ps nearnet-topology.PS 4) what is included in your map? 5) how often is it updated? Weekly 6) Contact? jcurran@nic.near.net ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number nisc.jvnc.net 128.121.50.7 2) cd __________ nicol/MAPS 3) get ___________.ps JvNCnet.PS 4) What is included in your map? Sites connected, backbone topologies, and speed of links. 5) How often is it updated? Monthly, at least. 6) Contact? nisc@jvnc.net ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number ns.nic.yorku.ca 130.63.7.3 2) cd __________ pub/york/maps 3) get ___________.ps ip-backbone-v3.2.ps 4) what is included in your map? 5) how often is it updated? 6) Contact? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number noc.sura.net 192.80.214.100 2) cd __________ maps 3) get ___________.ps noc.map.ps directions.map.ps geo.map.ps sites.map.ps 4) what is included in your map? 5) how often is it updated? 6) Contact? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number ftphost.nwnet.net 128.95.112.1 2) cd __________ local/nwnet 3) get ___________.ps nwnet-map.ps 4) what is included in your map? 5) how often is it updated? 6) Contact? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number nic.es.net 128.55.32.3 2) cd __________ maps 3) get ___________.ps ESNET-BACKBONE-MAP.PS 4) what is included in your map? 5) how often is it updated? 6) Contact? ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) anonymous ftp name and number nic.barrnet.net 36.56.0.151 2) cd __________ barrnet 3) get ___________.ps barrnet.geog.ps barrnet.ps 4) what is included in your map? 5) how often is it updated? 6) Contact? -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### From: "D.F. Manno" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 01:37:38 -0500 Organization: East Stouffer Cafe Society Message-ID: References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Face: $Gg8\x/A&Zl7yKb_E0|}GDp)A!N<+zh}Y|nH?|:8DO0rE1gyTSmCTBhFKetS% )r-9j>ss0tn?es<}~IG;cU/$K_.IZ~Dw~GnU7XB/^'*aL_)C|yoq_JtBd4^5Mm6,Ai~q 5z#F?zf, Bernie Cosell wrote: > This isn't true. There's no such rule [at least not in the US]. UCC 4-404 > *allows* a bank to make payment for any check it chooses to and the > customer *cannot* complain [and so has to keep sufficient covering funds in > their account essentially forever]. [NB: the bank is *allowed* to refuse > payment on a 'stale check' but the account holder has no recourse if the > bank _does_ honor one. And as a practical matter, banks generally *will* > honor any check, regardless of the date. I successfully cashed a check > that was seven years old without a problem [a 1997 check cashed in 2003 > when I found it in a box of old pay slips]] I find it curious that my financial institution will gladly cash stale checks that I've written but will reject stale checks that I've deposited. -- D.F. Manno dommanno@netscape.net "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin) ###### From: Joe Block Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: <1076461981snz@dsl.co.uk> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 29 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:33:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.95.234.228 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.tampabay.rr.com 1076888011 24.95.234.228 (Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:33:31 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 18:33:31 EST Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!twister.tampabay.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164289 In article , "D.F. Manno" wrote: > In article , > Bernie Cosell wrote: > > > This isn't true. There's no such rule [at least not in the US]. UCC 4-404 > > *allows* a bank to make payment for any check it chooses to and the > > customer *cannot* complain [and so has to keep sufficient covering funds in > > their account essentially forever]. [NB: the bank is *allowed* to refuse > > payment on a 'stale check' but the account holder has no recourse if the > > bank _does_ honor one. And as a practical matter, banks generally *will* > > honor any check, regardless of the date. I successfully cashed a check > > that was seven years old without a problem [a 1997 check cashed in 2003 > > when I found it in a box of old pay slips]] > > I find it curious that my financial institution will gladly cash stale > checks that I've written but will reject stale checks that I've > deposited. That's because they're trying to optimize the number of fees they charge, not your convenience. If they cash stale checks, they get a chance to hit you for an overdraft, and similarly if they don't honor a deposit. But maybe I'm just a cynic. jpb ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: 16 Feb 04 10:29:03 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <1287.542T193T6293034@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-133.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164366 In article jpb@ApesSeekingKnowledge.net (Joe Block) writes: >In article , >"D.F. Manno" wrote: > >> I find it curious that my financial institution will gladly cash >> stale checks that I've written but will reject stale checks that >> I've deposited. > >That's because they're trying to optimize the number of fees they >charge, not your convenience. > >If they cash stale checks, they get a chance to hit you for an >overdraft, and similarly if they don't honor a deposit. > >But maybe I'm just a cynic. Or just a realist. When my sister worked for a bank, she was reprimanded for not gouging customers with enough service charges. The one I love is when they put holds on deposits from ATMs but don't tell you about it. I discovered this one evening when I tried to withdraw $100 from a machine and was told "insufficient funds" - but when I did a balance inquiry it said I had $1200 in my account. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:38:31 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1077053911 57486 146.186.61.46 (17 Feb 2004 21:38:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:38:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.litech.org!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164508 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , >Brian Inglis wrote: >There is an important little negotiation trick here. If you have a >dispute with someone, and offer a lower amount as settlement of a >deficient delivery you can send a crossed check with a line of >"this is payment for all outstanding claims on me" or similar. >(unsure of exact wording to be used in Common-Law countries, consult >a lawyer that knows banking). If they cash the check they have >accepted your settlement, and you can stop any court or collection >procedures in the bud. Any lower court will throw such a case out. In Common Law countries, you need a bona fide dispute. Also, in the U.S. today, they have a period in which they can refund the money if sent to a large billing center. My former property manager figured she was clever in restricting indorsement (yes, with an "i") in this way on the back of the check, ignoring that the law for brokers prohibits such conduct. When I complete the ethical complaint, I'm listing this as a separate count for each day she didn't properly turn over the funds . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:39:34 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1077053974 57486 146.186.61.46 (17 Feb 2004 21:39:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:39:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!news.litech.org!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164507 In article , Christopher C. Stacy wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:00:02 GMT, Morten Reistad ("Morten") writes: > Morten> If you have a dispute with someone, and offer a lower amount > Morten> as settlement of a deficient delivery you can send a crossed > Morten> check with a line of "this is payment for all outstanding > Morten> claims on me" or similar. (unsure of exact wording to be > Morten> used in Common-Law countries, consult a lawyer that knows > Morten> banking). If they cash the check they have accepted your > Morten> settlement, and you can stop any court or collection procedures > Morten> in the bud. Any lower court will throw such a case out. >This is not true in the USA, where it is controlled by state law. If there is a bona fide dispute, this creates an accord and satisfaction in 49 states (and maybe Louisiana too). hawk, esq. -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:41:19 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1077054079 57486 146.186.61.46 (17 Feb 2004 21:41:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:41:19 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164512 In article , Bernie Cosell wrote: >Brian Inglis wrote: >} He's just got to wait three or six months until the cheque is >} considered stale-dated and he knows he won't have to pony up the >} $2.56. >This isn't true. There's no such rule [at least not in the US]. UCC 4-404 >*allows* a bank to make payment for any check it chooses to and the >customer *cannot* complain [and so has to keep sufficient covering funds in >their account essentially forever]. [NB: the bank is *allowed* to refuse >payment on a 'stale check' but the account holder has no recourse if the >bank _does_ honor one. That pretty much sums up all of Article 4--the banks wrote it. In almost all cases save not having your signature on the check, the bank *may* {whatever}, and you have no recourse if they do . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Sender: CStacy@BOHR Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: From: cstacy@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 02:59:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.163.145.123 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1077073149 68.163.145.123 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:59:09 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:59:09 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!8b1f9295!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164546 >>>>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:39:34 +0000 (UTC), Richard E Hawkins ("Richard") writes: Richard> In article , Richard> Christopher C. Stacy wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:00:02 GMT, Morten Reistad ("Morten") writes: Morten> If you have a dispute with someone, and offer a lower amount Morten> as settlement of a deficient delivery you can send a crossed Morten> check with a line of "this is payment for all outstanding Morten> claims on me" or similar. (unsure of exact wording to be Morten> used in Common-Law countries, consult a lawyer that knows Morten> banking). If they cash the check they have accepted your Morten> settlement, and you can stop any court or collection procedures Morten> in the bud. Any lower court will throw such a case out. >> This is not true in the USA, where it is controlled by state law. Richard> If there is a bona fide dispute, this creates an accord and Richard> satisfaction in 49 states (and maybe Louisiana too). There's really a lot more to it than that. ###### Sender: CStacy@BOHR Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses References: From: cstacy@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) Message-ID: Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 03:18:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.163.145.123 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1077074298 68.163.145.123 (Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:18:18 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:18:18 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!8b1f9295!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:164550 >>>>> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 02:59:09 GMT, Christopher C Stacy ("Christopher") writes: >>>>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:39:34 +0000 (UTC), Richard E Hawkins ("Richard") writes: Richard> In article , Richard> Christopher C. Stacy wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:00:02 GMT, Morten Reistad ("Morten") writes: Morten> If you have a dispute with someone, and offer a lower amount Morten> as settlement of a deficient delivery you can send a crossed Morten> check with a line of "this is payment for all outstanding Morten> claims on me" or similar. (unsure of exact wording to be Morten> used in Common-Law countries, consult a lawyer that knows Morten> banking). If they cash the check they have accepted your Morten> settlement, and you can stop any court or collection procedures Morten> in the bud. Any lower court will throw such a case out. >>> This is not true in the USA, where it is controlled by state law. Richard> If there is a bona fide dispute, this creates an accord and Richard> satisfaction in 49 states (and maybe Louisiana too). Christopher> There's really a lot more to it than that. That was a little cryptic. I am referring to the subtleties in the states' versions of UCC regarding how "bona fide dispute" is established, whether or not the accord and satisfaction can be avoided by the 90 day refund, etc. In short, my advice is: if you don't like what it says on the check, ask your lawyer before cashing it. ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:12:33 -0600 Lines: 40 Message-ID: <1u6g301u060qcnp5fkm9eb7u635bna8rut@4ax.com> References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> <92qeQlzXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-32-213-12.bna.bellsouth.net (67.32.213.12) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077419554 49412618 I 67.32.213.12 ([61967]) Cancel-Lock: sha1:F/mL2kf8kdMUafnUIW/zNGHh/yY= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!adsl-32-213-12.bna.bellsouth.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165104 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 14 Feb 2004 15:57:00 +0200, kaih=92qeQlzXw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) wrote: >jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) wrote on 07.02.04 in >: > >> It's perhaps instructive about the size of the ARPANET that on the >> back of the TAC cards was a list of all of the telephone numbers >> for the dialup modems attached to ARPANET. It used a small >> typeface, but was still readable. Medium-size regional ISPs have >> more telephone numbers these days... > >Over here, that's extremely rare - the trend goes to single numbers. > Single numbers in a given geographical area, or single numbers for the entire ISP? Here in the USA, the current trend is towards one number or a few numbers in a given geographical area, distributed geographically so that you can make a local phone call to log on, rather than having to pay long-distance rates. Having to pay long-distance rates every time that I wanted to log onto the Internet would be rather discouraging. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBQDgeEzMYPge5L34aEQJoGACg6HcCuE+WqyqiI7poGnOWekvFZMEAnjp+ weFYf+8S9eqD4Hdp4jzjqhp1 =Pcx5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ###### From: Pete Verdon Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:14:43 +0000 Organization: University of Warwick, UK Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> <92qeQlzXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1u6g301u060qcnp5fkm9eb7u635bna8rut@4ax.com> Reply-To: usenet@verdonet.organisation.unitedkingdom NNTP-Posting-Host: cpc1-warw1-6-0-cust205.brhm.cable.ntl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Trace: wisteria.csv.warwick.ac.uk 1077444909 576 81.100.44.205 (22 Feb 2004 10:15:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@csv.warwick.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:15:09 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 X-No-Archive: Yes Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer0-test!btnet!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!130.88.203.18.MISMATCH!peernews.mcc.ac.uk!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165127 John F. Eldredge wrote: > Single numbers in a given geographical area, or single numbers for > the entire ISP? Here in the USA, the current trend is towards one > number or a few numbers in a given geographical area, distributed > geographically so that you can make a local phone call to log on, > rather than having to pay long-distance rates. Having to pay > long-distance rates every time that I wanted to log onto the Internet > would be rather discouraging. For the entire ISP. But it would be an 0845 number, which is charged to the customer as a local-rate call regardless of where the two parties are. Presumably the US telephone system doesn't have this functionality, if ISPs need to maintain big lists of numbers. Pete ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> <92qeQlzXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1u6g301u060qcnp5fkm9eb7u635bna8rut@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 04 12:19:59 GMT Lines: 30 Message-ID: <4038b1c3$0$3084$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> X-Trace: DXC=YQ1BEh<4D1>FS`68\:UUk40R]m=BkYWI7:6bU3OT9S9:n<]6`Oi^O09a;EOPEcF]84HIjb1MaCj1< X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!news.cs.univ-paris8.fr!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!diablo.voicenet.com!199.184.165.233.MISMATCH!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feed3.news.rcn.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165141 In article , Pete Verdon wrote: You are a F SOB--alt.folklore.computers put back; the other one dele'd. >John F. Eldredge wrote: > >> Single numbers in a given geographical area, or single numbers for >> the entire ISP? Here in the USA, the current trend is towards one >> number or a few numbers in a given geographical area, distributed >> geographically so that you can make a local phone call to log on, >> rather than having to pay long-distance rates. Having to pay >> long-distance rates every time that I wanted to log onto the Internet >> would be rather discouraging. > >For the entire ISP. But it would be an 0845 number, >which is charged to the >customer as a local-rate call regardless of where the two parties are. >Presumably the US telephone system doesn't have this >functionality, if ISPs >need to maintain big lists of numbers. Or the ISP wants to make more money. I found it extremely ironic that AOL blamed lower income last quarter on diminishing phone line service sales. They've been doing everything they can to get people off modems and phone lines. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ARPAnet guest accounts, and longtime email addresses Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:26:48 -0600 Lines: 77 Message-ID: References: <54oesnujxb.fsf@cypher.cisco.com> <92qeQlzXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1u6g301u060qcnp5fkm9eb7u635bna8rut@4ax.com> <4038b1c3$0$3084$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-32-213-12.bna.bellsouth.net (67.32.213.12) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1077481608 51324165 I 67.32.213.12 ([61967]) Cancel-Lock: sha1:+8dGUHCWFzVFo7bPJpK6gpyChg8= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-NFilter: 1.2.0 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!adsl-32-213-12.bna.bellsouth.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:165171 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 22 Feb 04 12:19:59 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > Pete Verdon > wrote: > >You are a F SOB--alt.folklore.computers put back; the other one >dele'd. > >>John F. Eldredge wrote: >> >>> Single numbers in a given geographical area, or single numbers >>> for the entire ISP? Here in the USA, the current trend is >>> towards one number or a few numbers in a given geographical area, >>> distributed geographically so that you can make a local phone >>> call to log on, rather than having to pay long-distance rates. >>> Having to pay >>> long-distance rates every time that I wanted to log onto the >>> Internet would be rather discouraging. >> >>For the entire ISP. But it would be an 0845 number, >>which is charged to the >>customer as a local-rate call regardless of where the two parties >>are. Presumably the US telephone system doesn't have this >>functionality, if ISPs >>need to maintain big lists of numbers. > >Or the ISP wants to make more money. I found it extremely ironic >that AOL blamed lower income last quarter on diminishing phone >line service sales. They've been doing everything they can >to get people off modems and phone lines. Without seeing actual accounting figures, it would be hard for me to predict which would make an ISP more money, dial-up customers or broadband customers. Dial-up customers pay less per month, but they also presumably consume less bandwidth, on the average. A lot of the ISP's here in the USA who cover large areas don't own all of the local Points of Presence (dial-up access points); instead, they pay for the use of existing access points owned by other companies. Last year, I was having problems connecting to an Earthlink POP here in Nashville, Tennessee, and so had my system record a connection log. In the process, I discovered that I was actually connecting to a UUNET node. Since Earthlink now has you log in with your full email address as the user ID, this presumably tells UUNET which system to validate the user against, and who to bill for the connection time. US phone service doesn't have an exact equivalent to the 0845 numbers described above. Most local phone service is offered on a flat-rate system, although metered service (pay by the minute) is available for customers too poor to afford flat-rate service, and who intend to make and receive very few phone calls. ISP's often offer an 800 number for dial-up use from outside areas offering local dial-up numbers; this means that the user isn't having to pay the phone company for the long-distance call, but you end up having to pay a per-minute surcharge to the ISP for using the 800 number, since they are paying for the phone call. Never having had to use such a number, I don't know how the surcharge compares to the cost of making a normal long-distance call to a "local" dial-up number outside the local calling zone. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBQDkQbjMYPge5L34aEQJzZACfWMxWlTee2zCPbPfTccsShVNrvpgAoNMF wJyjJ+7SpDujnN8HV/UNxgO/ =xeie -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria