From: "Matt" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:24:52 -0500 Lines: 10 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: pcp01613838pcs.wilog301.pa.comcast.net (68.80.2.185) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1074731049 20397217 68.80.2.185 ([188047]) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pcp01613838pcs.wilog301.pa.comcast.NET!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:160793 I have found a Quest Super Elf computer kit. It is not put together yet, it is dated 1977. It has all instructions, and paperwork It is even in its original shipping box. I am wondering if this is any good? is it something that is collectable? Thank-You -- Matt C. ###### From: Chris Howard Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 10:11:21 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161062 Matt wrote: > I have found a Quest Super Elf computer kit. It is not put together yet, it > is dated 1977. It has all instructions, and paperwork It is even in its > original shipping box. I am wondering if this is any good? is it something > that is collectable? > Thank-You I remember looking at these in Popular Electronics many years ago. I thought they were called the RCA Cosmic Super Elf. I think I some old copies of PE laying around. If I find the ad I'll scan it in and post where you can download te image. Chris ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:24:00 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: TCS Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit References: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:24:01 -0600 Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.173.227.58 X-Trace: sv3-gRlAL9DL/oFeyKm1A1Utzyw4lXBCvrYnW8M3d61cyg/Qd7hDeG1Sx88+avwy2i/99C/4m0Nbvrw8pCV!6XSbn/pex9s+RcVyOy8czdrj+GiFsyk4jjthXnoWT9Iiq/8kL//UzP6aVH3tkw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!prodigy.com!prodigy.com!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161073 On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 10:11:21 -0500, Chris Howard wrote: >Matt wrote: >> I have found a Quest Super Elf computer kit. It is not put together yet, it >> is dated 1977. It has all instructions, and paperwork It is even in its >> original shipping box. I am wondering if this is any good? is it something >> that is collectable? >> Thank-You >I remember looking at these in Popular Electronics many years ago. I >thought they were called the RCA Cosmic Super Elf. I think I some old >copies of PE laying around. If I find the ad I'll scan it in and post >where you can download te image. I owned one. It was made by quest and thus called the "quest cosmic super elf", based on the "cosmic elf" articles in popular electronics which used the RCA 1802 processor. In '78, I also had the 4K expansion board with tiny basic. The tiny basic fit in 2K and used the 1861 128x64 video display chip for output. I swapped out that version for one that used an s100 video board plugged into the expansion board giving a 64x16 display of 7x9 characters. I also had a 16K static ram s-100 board that used 32 2114(? 1024x4 organization) chips and pulled nearly 3 amps of current. Machine was overclocked to 3mhz and couldn't run 10 minutes without crashing on hot summer afternoons; turned out the maximum clock speed was temperature related. One I thing I really remember about 1802 programming was that it took 5 instructions totaling 7 bytes just to fetch a byte from memory and there was no stack or subroutine stack. Any register could the program counter and the usual way of making a subroutine call was to simply switch program counters and have the subroutine make a jump to just before it's first instruction where it would switch PC's back to the default. ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit Date: 24 Jan 2004 18:52:51 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1074999171 23903 127.0.0.1 (25 Jan 2004 02:52:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 02:52:51 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161093 TCS wrote in message news:... > Machine was overclocked to 3mhz and couldn't run 10 minutes > without crashing on hot summer afternoons; turned out the maximum clock speed > was temperature related. Figure 2 of the datasheet illustrates this nicely. 4MHz at 25C and 5V, but 3 MHz at 90C and 5V. The 1802 and family chips were all CMOS static components, thus they could be clocked down to very low rates to reduce current draw to amazingly small numbers (microamps... well, hundreds of microamps). Non-CMOS interface circuitry added on by users removed this advantage. Increasing supply voltage above 5V improved max speed capabilities... at 10V you got almost exactly twice the speed you did at 5V. > One I thing I really remember about 1802 programming > was that it took 5 instructions totaling 7 bytes just to fetch a byte from > memory and there was no stack or subroutine stack. Any register could the > program counter and the usual way of making a subroutine call was to simply > switch program counters and have the subroutine make a jump to just before it's > first instruction where it would switch PC's back to the default. I've done several small 1802 jobs over the years and each time my mind gets warped by these peculiarities. Coming back to a machine with a single PC seems limiting for a while :-) Tim. ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit Date: 25 Jan 2004 04:13:01 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1075003981 19595 134.117.136.48 (25 Jan 2004 04:13:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2004 04:13:01 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@smeagol.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161104 Chris Howard (choward@zoid.com) writes: > Matt wrote: >> I have found a Quest Super Elf computer kit. It is not put together yet, it >> is dated 1977. It has all instructions, and paperwork It is even in its >> original shipping box. I am wondering if this is any good? is it something >> that is collectable? >> Thank-You > I remember looking at these in Popular Electronics many years ago. I > thought they were called the RCA Cosmic Super Elf. I think I some old > copies of PE laying around. If I find the ad I'll scan it in and post > where you can download te image. > > Chris It was never "cosmic". RCA came out with the CPU, the 1802. They referred to it in some way as "COSMAC". If I ever knew what it stood for, I sure can't remember now. RCA introduced CMOS logic in the late sixties, the CD4000 series, and they referred to it as "COS/MOS", for "Complementary-Symmetry / Metal Oxide Silicon". I don't know why their name did not hold, but not many years after it was introduced, "COS/MOS" was gone, and everyone called it CMOS (Complementary-symmetry Metal Oxide Silicon). That's surely where the "COS" in "COSMAC" comes from, but I can't even guess at the "MAC" part. Osborne's book about 8-bit CPUs lists the 1802, mentions the COSMAC bit, but doesn't explain its meaning. I don't know where the Elf part came from, if it was in RCA literature or was a brand name. It was the title of the two part article (plus some later followups) in the summer of 1976 in Popular Electronics. It was a simple computer at a time when the magazines rarely bothered to include schematics for computers because they took up so much space. The 1802 was designed so it could be bootstrapped without ROM or lots of logic for a front panel. This made it very tempting for someone wanting to play around. And of course, it saw use in at least one satellite, precisely because one could load initial software remotely (and plus, the CPU was certified for use in space). Some time later, I think early in 1978, there was a sort of sequel article, about the "Elf II". A kit was available from Netronics. I don't have the 1977 articles handy, so I'm not sure if the same author wrote both, and whether the original Elf was available as a kit from Netronics. The Elf II was basically the same, with the string of toggle switches and LEDs replaced with a calculator style keyboard and some seven segment readouts. Plus, sockets for expansion. Quest was another operation, and they had the "Super Elf". I can't remember if they ran a construction article at any point, though I have a vague memory of a much fancier system described at some point. I don't know when it came out, but a 1979 guide lists it as selling for $107 as a kit, seven dollars more than the Elf II. Hex keypad intput, video output (though I suspect it used the video IC in the 1802-line, which resulted in fairly rudimentary display), and 256 bytes of memory. Even an audio amplifier and speaker. There are a bunch of options listed, for a few dollars each. Address display (which makes me suspect that no seven segment readout was standard, unlike the Elf II), "1K Super ROM monitor", parallel I/O port, "RS232 I/O" (at $2, this is likely just some components to convert +5v logic levels to and from RS232 levels, and the parallel to serial conversion was software), and a Tiny BASIC. A nicad backup option (it being CMOS, it was easy to do this, and saved having to reload software each time you turned it on), an S100 memory interface option (only $4.50, so it couldn't be much more than just the connector, I wonder how they dealt with the multiplexed address bus on the 1802, which meant real simple parts count if you had only 256 bytes, but made it messier when you added more memory), and an expansion board kit for $80 (4K of memory, a cassette interface, and now I see was required for most of the options I've already mentioned). Except if they got much fancier, these all were basically the same thing, the 1802, some switches and LEDs, a bit of memory and the RCA video IC. And a bit of logic to hook it all together. Probably right out of an RCA datasheet, which makes a lot of sense since such things are there for manufacturers to use the IC (which results in IC sales). Meanwhile, RCA itself had some 1802 based products. An evaluation board, for $249. The COSMAC VIP that was intended for use with a TV, and sort of intended for the home game market, $249. Byte ran an article about it by the designer, and he had written an interpreter for it, that was only a step above machine language. Sort of on the level of the "sweet-16" interpreter in the Apple II. And the 1979 guide I'm looking at lists a "COSMAC Microtutor II" for $195 which sounds similar to the various ELFs. I don't know how common any of these were, but the had a certain appeal because of their simplicity (and their ease in starting up). One can do some websearches (or even searchs of the archive for this newsgroup) and find plenty of references to it. I now discover the author of the 1976 articles, and he was the author of the Byte article about that interpreter. Like anything old, how much someone is willing to spend on something relates to how much they want it. Michael ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 00:32:37 -0600 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: TCS Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit References: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 00:32:38 -0600 Lines: 65 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.173.227.58 X-Trace: sv3-cRlHpN/u3/55RN2v81cER3gkjRgeLjDM1/PXWQYO/nFSG95xNAQO/te5imFF5l2bo70VaF/TfN3GoGs!VyxUTOrdkJA00MIwElvsx7wExD4dZb3NwrLRMNyz/j/ykWL6idofHxXlfz3ltQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!pd7cy1no!pd7cy2so!shaw.ca!border1.nntp.ash.giganews.com!border2.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!border1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.sjc.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161106 On 25 Jan 2004 04:13:01 GMT, Michael Black wrote: ... >Quest was another operation, and they had the "Super Elf". I can't remember >if they ran a construction article at any point, though I have a vague >memory of a much fancier system described at some point. I don't know >when it came out, but a 1979 guide lists it as selling for $107 as >a kit, seven dollars more than the Elf II. Hex keypad intput, video >output (though I suspect it used the video IC in the 1802-line, which >resulted in fairly rudimentary display), and 256 bytes of memory. Even >an audio amplifier and speaker. >There are a bunch of options listed, for a few dollars each. Address display >(which makes me suspect that no seven segment readout was standard, unlike >the Elf II), "1K Super ROM monitor", parallel I/O port, "RS232 I/O" (at The main board had the 1802, a 32 byte rom monitor, 256 bytes of ram and an 1861 video display chip. It used a keyboard for address/data input and heximal displays. It came with two digits for 8 bits of data; having another 4 digits for addresses was an option. The expansion board had the 1K rom monitor, 4K ram, serial and paralell interfaces, a cassette interface and two s-100 sockets. It had three rom sockets allowing a 2K tiny basic. The serial and cassette interfaces were entirely driven by software. The "Q" output of the CPU banged the serial output line and the serial input line was tied to a flag input on the CPU. When running tiny basic, a parallel keyboard was used for input and either the 1861 video output or an s-100 video board was used for output. >$2, this is likely just some components to convert +5v logic levels to >and from RS232 levels, and the parallel to serial conversion was software), >and a Tiny BASIC. A nicad backup option (it being CMOS, it was easy >to do this, and saved having to reload software each time you turned it >on), an S100 memory interface option (only $4.50, so it couldn't be much >more than just the connector, I wonder how they dealt with the multiplexed >address bus on the 1802, which meant real simple parts count if you had >only 256 bytes, but made it messier when you added more memory), and >an expansion board kit for $80 (4K of memory, a cassette interface, and >now I see was required for most of the options I've already mentioned). >Except if they got much fancier, these all were basically the same >thing, the 1802, some switches and LEDs, a bit of memory and the RCA video >IC. And a bit of logic to hook it all together. Probably right out >of an RCA datasheet, which makes a lot of sense since such things are >there for manufacturers to use the IC (which results in IC sales). >Meanwhile, RCA itself had some 1802 based products. An evaluation >board, for $249. The COSMAC VIP that was intended for use with a >TV, and sort of intended for the home game market, $249. Byte ran >an article about it by the designer, and he had written an interpreter >for it, that was only a step above machine language. Sort of on >the level of the "sweet-16" interpreter in the Apple II. And >the 1979 guide I'm looking at lists a "COSMAC Microtutor II" for >$195 which sounds similar to the various ELFs. >I don't know how common any of these were, but the had a certain appeal >because of their simplicity (and their ease in starting up). One can do >some websearches (or even searchs of the archive for this newsgroup) >and find plenty of references to it. I now discover the author of >the 1976 articles, and he was the author of the Byte article about >that interpreter. It was also the cheapest computer capable of running a high level language at the time. Ohio scientific would later come out with some $<400 computers. ###### From: "Bill Leary" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.97.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s04 1075034952 24.62.97.34 (Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:49:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:49:12 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:49:12 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!attbi_s04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161120 > they referred to it as "COS/MOS", for "Complementary-Symmetry / Metal > Oxide Silicon". There's seems to be some debate on the first "S" being for "Silicon" or for "Symmetry." The second "S" was for "Semiconductor. Thus "Complementary Silicon Metal-Oxide Semiconductor" Or "Complementary Symmetry Metal-Oxide Semiconductor." The sources I just looked up claim the first is RCA usage, and the second as more general. I'm not sure myself, but my vague recollection of working with the 1802 line is that this is correct. If nobody else remembers for sure, I'll dig up my 1802 stuff from the cellar and check it. > I don't know why their name did not hold, but not many years > after it was introduced, "COS/MOS" was gone, and everyone called > it CMOS (Complementary-symmetry Metal Oxide Silicon). CMOS = "Complementary Metal Oxide Semiconductor." > That's surely where the > "COS" in "COSMAC" comes from, but I can't even guess at the "MAC" part. COSMAC = COmplementary Silicon MetAl-oxide Conductor. "RCA terms for its first CMOS (COS/MOS) microprocessor architecture." > I don't know where the Elf part came from, if it was in RCA literature > or was a brand name. It was the title of the two part article (plus some > later followups) in the summer of 1976 in Popular Electronics. Yep. It was, as far as I ever knew (I built a variant of that machine), just their (PE's) name for their little computer. I always assumed it was chosen because it was meant to imply something small and cute-like. I don't recall "Elf" ever being metioned in any of the RCA literature I had or saw EXCEPT that they gave out Xerox copies of the Popular Electronics articles you mention at the Will-Call desk at the RCA distributor I went to to get parts. I'm just about positive this wasn't company policy, but rather something the guys at the distributor did on their own. I recall chatting with one of the guys there and him making comments about "we" did this and that to "our" versions. - Bill ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit Date: 25 Jan 2004 16:34:11 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: smeagol X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1075048451 2760 134.117.136.48 (25 Jan 2004 16:34:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2004 16:34:11 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@smeagol.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161141 "Bill Leary" (Bill_Leary@msn.com) writes: >> they referred to it as "COS/MOS", for "Complementary-Symmetry / Metal >> Oxide Silicon". > > There's seems to be some debate on the first "S" being for "Silicon" or for > "Symmetry." > > The second "S" was for "Semiconductor. > > Thus "Complementary Silicon Metal-Oxide Semiconductor" > Or "Complementary Symmetry Metal-Oxide Semiconductor." > > The sources I just looked up claim the first is RCA usage, and the second as > more general. I'm not sure myself, but my vague recollection of working > with the 1802 line is that this is correct. If nobody else remembers for > sure, I'll dig up my 1802 stuff from the cellar and check it. > I have no idea why I typed "silicon". You're right, it's "semiconductor" and I knew that. For the "symmetry" bit, I couldn't remember (after all, it's been "CMOS" most of these years), so I looked in a 1971 RCA COS/MOS manual. Twice in the first three pages, it says it's "symmetry". Michael ###### From: "Bill Leary" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <10152orte3j279f@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Quest Super Elf 1802 computer kit Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <5YWQb.148326$xy6.713926@attbi_s02> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.97.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s02 1075067777 24.62.97.34 (Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:56:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:56:17 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:56:17 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!attbi_s02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:161176 "Michael Black" wrote in message news:bv0r63$2m8$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > I have no idea why I typed "silicon". You're right, it's "semiconductor" > and I knew that. :) I think of it as "Jammed Name Syndrome." On Friday I was fixing a bit of FLASH code someone else had written. I *KNEW* their variable name was "boot_block" but I kept typing "boot_sector." I *think* because the documents I read called it a "sector." I'd fix it after a failed compile, get a good compile and test run, then add a bit more code and get another compile failure. I'd typed the wrong name again. And I just could NOT catch it in proof reading. > For the "symmetry" bit, I couldn't remember (after all, it's been "CMOS" > most of these years), so I looked in a 1971 RCA COS/MOS manual. Twice > in the first three pages, it says it's "symmetry". And there you go. Always best, if available, to pull the old documents. Thanks. Saves me going into the deep dark cellar myself. - Bill