From: leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca Subject: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm User-Agent: tin/1.4.6-20020816 ("Aerials") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:14:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.71.2 X-Trace: charlie.risq.qc.ca 1067973253 204.19.71.2 (Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:14:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:14:13 EST Organization: IREQ http://www.ireq.ca/ Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!charlie.risq.qc.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154326 Hello everyone, I'm looking for the following rare pieces of software: - Q-DOS (Quick and Dirty OS). This was the very first work on what would become PC/MS DOS. This software dates from 1980, and has been produced by Seattle Computer Products. - 86-DOS: Q-DOS has been renamed 86-DOS in late 1980, as SCP released version 0.30 (I think) - CP/M 1.3: The very first version of CP/M in 1976. - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86 that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on the PC in 1982. I'm looking for either the original disks, a copy of them, or disk images sent through e-mail. I offer some $reward$..... All these come on 8" SSSD, except CP/M-86 which is on 5.25", and I am able to read 8" SSSD or write back disk image to real 8" floppies. Thanks for any help. Louis-Luc ###### Message-ID: <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 73 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:01:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.166.66.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: fe3.columbus.rr.com 1067979712 24.166.66.200 (Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:01:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:01:52 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-server.columbus.rr.com!fe3.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154328 CP/M-86 was released on 8" SSSD media LONG before (like a year before) the IBM-PC ever existed, and longer still before CP/M-86 was released on 5.25" media for the PC (by either DR or IBM). It was not a "Preliminary release", it was a full finished product with perfect-bound, professionally printed documentation (8.5" x 11" size, not "PC-size"). There is really nothing special about it, all of the CP/M-86 releases are virtually identical as far as the OS itself (CCP and BDOS) are concerned, a very few bugs were fixed but CP/M-86 never had a really major revision. The 5.25" release for the PC, however, did not have the full suite of development tools (ASM86, DDT(86) and GENCMD running under both 8080 and 8086 processors, for example) that were included in the 8" version of CP/M-86. I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had actually become MS-DOS. I also have the Imsai version of CP/M 1.3 also, somewhere, I think (I had it, but there's a chance that I got rid of it decades ago when 1.4 came out). I used that with the old blue IMSAI dual-Calcomp disk system (like the one that I sold on E-Bay a month or so ago) until 1.4 came out. Unfortunately, I don't have a running system that can easily read and duplicate those disks on, if they are still readable at all, and I won't part with the originals, even temporarily (you are not the first person to ask). If, however, you want to come here with a system to duplicate them with me on-site, then we can talk. [Actually, I DO have a working Zenith Z-100 with dual 8" drives here, but I don't trust the Zenith copy utilities because they write a "header" in Track 0 sector 1, and I haven't adapted a "generic" OS-independent copy utility to run on the Z-100, although it shouldn't be hard to do, in fact I probably have such a utility, perhaps even on the Z-100's hard drive.] I have thought about selling the 86-DOS copy on E-Bay, anyone have any idea what it might bring? It's complete with documentation in the "SCP binders" and even invoice, and because of the many versions involved as it developed, it's quite 3-ring binders and disks -- a veritable history of the development of 86-DOS ==> MS-DOS. I even still have the SCP hardware that it runs on (the 8086 CPU, the CPU support board and the SCP 4-port serial card). Perhaps Mr. Gates or Mr. Allen would be interested in buying it. I'd want a lot for it, but I'd sell it for under the $50,000 that they paid once before. leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote: > Hello everyone, > I'm looking for the following rare pieces of software: > > - Q-DOS (Quick and Dirty OS). This was the very first work on what would > become PC/MS DOS. This software dates from 1980, and has been > produced by Seattle Computer Products. > - 86-DOS: Q-DOS has been renamed 86-DOS in late 1980, as SCP released > version 0.30 (I think) > > - CP/M 1.3: The very first version of CP/M in 1976. > - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86 > that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on > the PC in 1982. > > I'm looking for either the original disks, a copy of them, or disk images > sent through e-mail. I offer some $reward$..... > All these come on 8" SSSD, except CP/M-86 which is on 5.25", and I am > able to read 8" SSSD or write back disk image to real 8" floppies. > > Thanks for any help. > > Louis-Luc ###### From: mikepcw@telepolis.com (MikePCW) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Date: 4 Nov 2003 14:26:14 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.235.38.48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067984775 18034 127.0.0.1 (4 Nov 2003 22:26:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:26:15 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154333 leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote in message news:<9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca>... > Hello everyone, > I'm looking for the following rare pieces of software: > - CP/M 1.3: The very first version of CP/M in 1976. > - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86 > that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on > the PC in 1982. You can see in www.cpm.z80.de for CP/M binaries & sources. Regards, Mike ###### From: riplin@Azonic.co.nz (Richard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Date: 4 Nov 2003 16:42:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <217e491a.0311041642.18ad925@posting.google.com> References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.27.195.196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1067992928 27404 127.0.0.1 (5 Nov 2003 00:42:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:42:08 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154336 leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote > I'm looking for the following rare pieces of software: Still ? I remember from years ago ... > - Q-DOS (Quick and Dirty OS). This was the very first work on what would > become PC/MS DOS. This software dates from 1980, and has been > produced by Seattle Computer Products. I have doubts that this was ever released under the name Q-DOS. > - 86-DOS: Q-DOS has been renamed 86-DOS in late 1980, as SCP released > version 0.30 (I think) 86-DOS certainly was avilable as shown by adverts. > - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86 > that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on > the PC in 1982. In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines. CompuPro releases are listed as 1.0E May 1981, 1.1K June 1982. IBM PC Releases as IBM distribution March 1982, 1.1 (DRI retail) March 1983, 1.1 for XT mid 1983. CP/M-86 version 1.1 for the IBM PC was, I believe, the first DRI produced retail version. They did this because IBM refused to sell anything other than the original 1.0 and for $250.00. (probably because they were still angry at having to settle with DRI over copyright issues in PC-DOS- one part of the settlement being they were to sell CP/M-86). All other CP/M-86s were from manufacturers. ###### From: riplin@Azonic.co.nz (Richard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Date: 5 Nov 2003 01:09:31 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 7 Message-ID: <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.27.195.196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068023371 27796 127.0.0.1 (5 Nov 2003 09:09:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:09:31 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154342 Barry Watzman wrote > I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to > some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had > actually become MS-DOS. Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ? ###### Message-ID: <3FA91943.B800E3F2@yahoo.com> From: Phil Dumpster X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.230.214.167 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s03 1068046026 12.230.214.167 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:27:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:27:06 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:27:06 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!attbi_s03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154358 Richard wrote: > > Barry Watzman wrote > > > I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to > > some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had > > actually become MS-DOS. > > Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ? Probably the versions Tim did at Seattle Computer used the CP/M file system, or something very similar to it. FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the hands of Microsoft. You'd have to ask those involved for the details, as this is merely speculation. ###### From: leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> <3FA91943.B800E3F2@yahoo.com> User-Agent: tin/1.4.6-20020816 ("Aerials") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Lines: 31 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:52:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.71.2 X-Trace: charlie.risq.qc.ca 1068047544 204.19.71.2 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:52:24 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:52:24 EST Organization: IREQ http://www.ireq.ca/ Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!charlie.risq.qc.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154359 In comp.os.cpm Phil Dumpster wrote: > Richard wrote: >> >> Barry Watzman wrote >> >> > I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to >> > some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had >> > actually become MS-DOS. >> >> Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ? > > Probably the versions Tim did at Seattle Computer used the CP/M file system, > or something very similar to it. FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the > hands of Microsoft. > I have a copy of v1.0 for Cromemco, and I've been able to extract the disk image from the 8" SSSD into a file with Anadisk. I've then been able to dump what I assumed to be the FAT sectors onto a 5.25" 160KB disk for PC, as well as the directory listing. And all the files are there, with real dates and sizes! The only challenge here is to make it boot a PC, but that would require much more work. I'm sure there is the same FAT on the 8" version except it's 768 bytes instead of 512. Fortunately, the 8" FAT was not bigger than 512 bytes, so I could fit it in the space for FAT on the 5.25" for PC. So did Tim Paterson with SCP invent FATs (and not M$)? Louis-Luc > You'd have to ask those involved for the details, as this is merely > speculation. ###### From: leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <217e491a.0311041642.18ad925@posting.google.com> User-Agent: tin/1.4.6-20020816 ("Aerials") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Lines: 54 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:53:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.71.2 X-Trace: charlie.risq.qc.ca 1068047581 204.19.71.2 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:53:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:53:01 EST Organization: IREQ http://www.ireq.ca/ Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!charlie.risq.qc.ca!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154360 >> - CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE: This is a first "beta" release of CP/M-86 >> that Gary Kildall wrote in mid 1981, before it has been introduced on >> the PC in 1982. > > In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic > CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course > was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines. > Yes, there is certainly a 1.0 dated January 1981, and this one would be interesting as well. Since it's generic, then it's likely to reside on 8" SSSD disk as well. What I mention above is different. It's the "beta" version that Gary Kildall adapted to the IBM PC in mid 1981, as the date suggests. I know it must be on 5.25" because I have a photo showing an IBM PC booted with that diskette, and we can faintly see the screen. It says first "CP/M-86 bootstrap loader 1.0" "Loading track 0 1 2 3 4" or something similar. It's the exact same text as the v1.0 for PC, the one IBM sold for $250 and that many of us have. The text says: "CP/M-86 for the IBM PC, PRELIMINARY RELEASE 2.2.5" and there is a date on the screen, but it's to faint to be readable without doubt because of the glare of camera flash. By guessing, I see something like 08/07/81. I found this photo on the Internet about 5-6 years ago. I couldn't determine the website or where it came from. This photo came along with 4 others as follows: - A photo of that PC farther away where we see a 5.25" disk box and the same green screen. There is a man (maybe Gary Kildall) holding a diskette. - A photo showing Gary Kildall next to his personal plane preparing to fly (instead of attending the meeting with IBM) - A third one shows him preparing a BBQ. - And another one shows him (supposedly) attending a certain meeting with holding a styrofoam cup. Anyone wants the photos? I'll send them personally to anyone who wants a copy, or wants to have a look at this "mystery" CP/M-86 release and perhaps try to locate it, and to assert or deny Gary Kildall is really the man on these photos... The filename suggests Gary is making the BBQ and preparing to fly, but the ones with the computer they suggests the person is name Andy (so not Gary). > CompuPro releases are listed as 1.0E May 1981, 1.1K June 1982. > > IBM PC Releases as IBM distribution March 1982, 1.1 (DRI retail) March > 1983, 1.1 for XT mid 1983. The March '82 is the 1.0 with the same "bootstrap loader" text as the mystery "PRELIMINARY RELEASE" discussed above. And the v1.1 in 1983 is the first one DRI sold for XTs, and as opposed to 1.0 which runs on every modern PC, the 1.1 needs the "AT patch" available in our community. Louis-Luc ###### Message-ID: <3FA9285E.8040604@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <217e491a.0311041642.18ad925@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <217e491a.0311041642.18ad925@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:42:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.166.66.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: fe3.columbus.rr.com 1068050524 24.166.66.200 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:42:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:42:04 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-server.columbus.rr.com!fe3.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154364 Re: "In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines." No, it was available for retail single-copy purchase on 8" disks with the Intel MDS-86 BIOS, needing to be customized much as a generic retail copy of CP/M v2.2 would be. It was sold by Digital Research themselves (direct), and at least by Lifeboat Associates in NYC, probably by others. I believe that it was $150. ###### Message-ID: <3FA928E3.4040906@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> In-Reply-To: <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:44:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.166.66.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: fe3.columbus.rr.com 1068050657 24.166.66.200 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:44:17 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:44:17 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-server.columbus.rr.com!fe3.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154365 No, SCP 86-DOS used the 12-bit FAT file system (only). It was difficult, if not impossible, to bring this up without the SCP hardware. However the system did have a file transfer program to copy files between a CP/M 8" diskette (SSSD) and the 8" SCP disks using FAT-12. The problem was that you couldn't use this utility until after the 86-DOS system itself was up and running. Richard wrote: > Barry Watzman wrote > > >>I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to >>some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had >>actually become MS-DOS. > > > Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ? ###### Message-ID: <3FA92942.3070703@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> <3FA91943.B800E3F2@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <3FA91943.B800E3F2@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:45:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.166.66.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: fe3.columbus.rr.com 1068050752 24.166.66.200 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:45:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:45:52 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-server.columbus.rr.com!fe3.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154366 Re: "FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the hands of Microsoft." That's simply not correct. Version 0.3x, which was well before the MS acquisition, was FAT-12 on 8" SSSD media. As far as I know, 86-DOS NEVER supported CP/M media natively. Phil Dumpster wrote: > Richard wrote: > >>Barry Watzman wrote >> >> >>>I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to >>>some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had >>>actually become MS-DOS. >> >>Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ? > > > Probably the versions Tim did at Seattle Computer used the CP/M file system, > or something very similar to it. FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the > hands of Microsoft. > > You'd have to ask those involved for the details, as this is merely > speculation. ###### Message-ID: <3FA9298C.1070202@neo.rr.com> From: Barry Watzman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> <3FA91943.B800E3F2@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:47:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.166.66.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: fe3.columbus.rr.com 1068050825 24.166.66.200 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:47:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:47:05 EST Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-server.columbus.rr.com!fe3.columbus.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154367 Re: "So did Tim Paterson with SCP invent FATs (and not M$)?" I'd have to answer yes, based on everything that I've seen and heard. leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote: > In comp.os.cpm Phil Dumpster wrote: > >>Richard wrote: >> >>>Barry Watzman wrote >>> >>> >>>>I have that, I also have 86-DOS, quite a few versions from 0.3 or so to >>>>some 8" versions past where MS had bought it from SCP and it had >>>>actually become MS-DOS. >>> >>>Did any of those versions have any file system other than FAT ? CP/M for example ? >> >> Probably the versions Tim did at Seattle Computer used the CP/M file system, >>or something very similar to it. FAT wasn't grafted in until it was in the >>hands of Microsoft. >> > > I have a copy of v1.0 for Cromemco, and I've been able to extract the > disk image from the 8" SSSD into a file with Anadisk. I've then been able > to dump what I assumed to be the FAT sectors onto a 5.25" 160KB disk for > PC, as well as the directory listing. And all the files are there, with > real dates and sizes! The only challenge here is to make it boot a PC, but > that would require much more work. > > I'm sure there is the same FAT on the 8" version except it's 768 bytes instead > of 512. Fortunately, the 8" FAT was not bigger than 512 bytes, so I could > fit it in the space for FAT on the 5.25" for PC. > > So did Tim Paterson with SCP invent FATs (and not M$)? > > Louis-Luc > >> You'd have to ask those involved for the details, as this is merely >>speculation. ###### From: riplin@Azonic.co.nz (Richard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Date: 5 Nov 2003 10:30:13 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <217e491a.0311051030.1afd9bcd@posting.google.com> References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <3FA813C1.8000504@neo.rr.com> <217e491a.0311050109.41078dbf@posting.google.com> <3FA91943.B800E3F2@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 202.27.195.196 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068057014 1659 127.0.0.1 (5 Nov 2003 18:30:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:30:14 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154375 leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote > So did Tim Paterson with SCP invent FATs (and not M$)? I don't think that there is any dispute that FAT originated in 'Stand Alone BASIC' and that Marc McDonald wrote it. """Another important contract from NCR required development of a disk version of BASIC for their 8200 terminal. The company assigned Marc McDonald to the project who developed a new disk formatting concept that used a File Allocation Table (FAT). The FAT controlled the sequence of data stored on a disk and improved the performance of disk operations. The company used the concept of a file allocation table in Microsoft Stand-alone Disk BASIC. Also in a Microsoft operating system project called MIDAS and later in QDOS by Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products.""" Tim was working for Microsoft at times, eg on the Z80 Softcard with CP/M, and so would know the people in MS and may have 'borrowed' the ideas. ###### From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Message-ID: <3fa993b9.2120723749@news.bellatlantic.net> References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <217e491a.0311041642.18ad925@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 19 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:20:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.160.5.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1068078010 68.160.5.117 (Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:20:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:20:10 EST Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154383 On 4 Nov 2003 16:42:08 -0800, riplin@Azonic.co.nz (Richard) wrote: >In the Osborne/McGraw-Hill CP/M-86 User's Guide it lists 'Generic >CP/M-86' 1.0 as January 1981 and 1.1 as 'early 1982'. This of course >was only sold to OEMs for developing to suit their machines. They are wrong by at least 6months. >All other CP/M-86s were from manufacturers. I have installed DRI supplied CP/M-86 on a 8086/8 powered Multibus crate back in late 1980 running with two sided NEC 8" floppies. Even did the user BIOS that was remarkably like CP/M 2.2 BIOS. The system had 256kb of ram an could blow the doors of the IBM as a zero effort enterprize. Still have some of my working disks from then. There is a lot of "Official" lore that was often inaccurate. Allison ###### From: mikepcw@telepolis.com (MikePCW) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Date: 6 Nov 2003 00:50:31 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <217e491a.0311041642.18ad925@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.30.68.164 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1068108631 27114 127.0.0.1 (6 Nov 2003 08:50:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:50:31 +0000 (UTC) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154406 leguerri@canr.hydro.qc.ca wrote in message news:... > Anyone wants the photos? I'll send them personally to anyone who wants > a copy, or wants to have a look at this "mystery" CP/M-86 release and > perhaps try to locate it, and to assert or deny Gary Kildall is really the > man on these photos... The filename suggests Gary is making the BBQ and > preparing to fly, but the ones with the computer they suggests the > person is name Andy (so not Gary). Andy Johnson - Laird, possibly... Regards, Mike ###### From: "Paul Ryan" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.msdos.misc,comp.os.cpm References: <9USpb.9425$Ng3.7609@charlie.risq.qc.ca> <217e491a.0311041642.18ad925@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: Wanted: SCP 86-DOS & CP/M-86 PRELIMINARY RELEASE Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 02:18:47 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.104.52.23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net 1068517110 213.104.52.23 (Tue, 11 Nov 2003 02:18:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 02:18:30 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154740 > Anyone wants the photos? I'll send them personally to anyone who wants > a copy, or wants to have a look at this "mystery" CP/M-86 release and > perhaps try to locate it, and to assert or deny Gary Kildall is really the > man on these photos... The filename suggests Gary is making the BBQ and > preparing to fly, but the ones with the computer they suggests the > person is name Andy (so not Gary). I would love a copy of them: pryan at n t l w o r l d . c o m Paul