From: nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 11 Jul 2003 10:24:24 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.190.164.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1057944264 31763 127.0.0.1 (11 Jul 2003 17:24:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2003 17:24:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145069 I've been looking around and it seems like one can get vintage systems for next to nothing nowadays. I have a few bucks lying around that I'd like to use to get an interesting vintage system to take apart, play with, and generally muck around in, but I'm a little overwhelmed by the possibilities. My question is that given the choice of any (reasonably priced of course... i.e. no Altair, Cray, etc...) vintage system, which would you advise to someone who is interested in breaking it apart and seeing how it works. Looking around, the systems that have jumped out at me initially are: 1) Apple ][ - This one stuck out at first because it seems to be the most flexible and probably easy to find parts for. Plus, it has a breadboard in the Mobo, so that alone put it at the top of my list. 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but in reality I can get 90% of the system's appeal just by using an emulator. I was considering the 128 also just to play around with CP/M. 3) Commodore SuperPet - I like the dual cpu layout and the availability for high level language compilers, but aside from that I'm a little fuzzy on the technical upside. 4) Some Lisp machine - This would be #1 on my list except that they are either too expensive or too big. Aside from these I'm at a lose. Any suggestions would be appreciated. -m ###### From: john_bailey@rochester.rr.com (John Bailey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Message-ID: <3f0f0175.86648745@news-server.rochester.rr.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 35 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:49:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.67.142.181 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyroc.rr.com 1057949377 66.67.142.181 (Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:49:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 14:49:37 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news3.optonline.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!cyclone-out.nyroc.rr.com!twister.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145087 On 11 Jul 2003 10:24:24 -0700, nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) wrote: >I've been looking around and it seems like one can get vintage systems >for next to nothing nowadays. >1) Apple ][ - >2) Commodore 64 >3) Commodore SuperPet >4) Some Lisp machine >Aside from these I'm at a loss. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Kim-1's are interesting beasts--They use the same chip as an Apple II, have two on-board clock chips allowing fun and games as a sound generator. My first one led me back to programming after a 10 year lapse. The one I have now is a complete kit, waiting for me to build it a power supply. Sun Sparc I or the Xerox relabled Sun Sparc 10. These are Lisp machine size but not loaded that way. Old Sparcs seem to have a problem when the self contained battery on the identity chip dies, used to insure network integrity. I manage to manually reload the start-up script on the Sparc 10. The other is a boat anchor. The HP portable Unix box--plasma screen--same chip set as the Macintosh. It feels like a overbuilt sewing machine to lug around. Built in printer. Mine seems to have a heat problem. If it runs for any length of time, it starts acting flaky. I have all of these, as well as an Apple II. It should not be too hard to find others. I would love to have an HP portable Unix box that was reliable. My ideal would be to re-inspire its firmware so it became a Macintosh look-alike which its chip set can support. Good luck John Bailey http://home.rochester.rr.com/jbxroads/mailto.html ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:18:13 -0800 Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1057954672 7387008 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145099 Fogus wrote: > > I've been looking around and it seems like one can get vintage systems > for next to nothing nowadays. I have a few bucks lying around that > I'd like to use to get an interesting vintage system to take apart, > play with, and generally muck around in, but I'm a little overwhelmed > by the possibilities. My question is that given the choice of any > (reasonably priced of course... i.e. no Altair, Cray, etc...) vintage > system, which would you advise to someone who is interested in > breaking it apart and seeing how it works. Looking around, the > systems that have jumped out at me initially are: > > 1) Apple ][ - This one stuck out at first because it seems to be the > most flexible and probably easy to find parts for. Plus, it has a > breadboard in the Mobo, so that alone put it at the top of my list. > > 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but > in reality I can get 90% of the system's appeal just by using an > emulator. I was considering the 128 also just to play around with > CP/M. > > 3) Commodore SuperPet - I like the dual cpu layout and the > availability for high level language compilers, but aside from that > I'm a little fuzzy on the technical upside. > > 4) Some Lisp machine - This would be #1 on my list except that they > are either too expensive or too big. > > Aside from these I'm at a lose. Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > -m For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically interesting? I dunno... Sam ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:58:30 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1057960710.895627@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057960711 10275 80.177.7.220 (11 Jul 2003 21:58:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:58:31 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145103 "Sam Yorko" wrote in message news:3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org... [SNIP] > For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically > interesting? I dunno... I'd say HELL YES ! Despite the Z80. It did a hell of a lot with very little. I can't ever remember actually liking them because I was spoilt by having a BBC Micro, which had a much nicer keyboard. I'd say the C64 was pretty fun too, it always had the best games - Jeff Minter, nuff said. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> <1057960710.895627@saucer.planet.gong> In-Reply-To: <1057960710.895627@saucer.planet.gong> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1057960986 12.240.77.188 (Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:03:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:03:06 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 22:03:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145100 Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Sam Yorko" wrote in message > news:3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org... > > [SNIP] > >> For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically >> interesting? I dunno... > > I'd say HELL YES ! Despite the Z80. It did a hell of a lot > with very little. I can't ever remember actually liking > them because I was spoilt by having a BBC Micro, which had > a much nicer keyboard. I'd say the C64 was pretty fun too, > it always had the best games - Jeff Minter, nuff said. :) Possibly an old Amstrad? The Edsel of the PC world. ###### From: "philicorda" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: <3vGPa.1570$DN5.94556@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:16:01 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.48.123 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net 1057961023 62.252.48.123 (Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:03:43 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:03:43 BST Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.222.22.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145097 "Sam Yorko" wrote in message news:3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org... > For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically > interesting? I dunno... The spectrum is interesting if you want to see how to make a computer cheaply with 1980's tech. Using half of half working 32k ram chips, the floating bus, membrane keyboard, combined tape writing and sound generation etc... There are probably hundreds of clever work arounds in it, but it still all added up to a nice little computer. > > Sam ###### From: mensanator@aol.com (mensanator) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 11 Jul 2003 18:23:46 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.73.244.36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1057973027 15807 127.0.0.1 (12 Jul 2003 01:23:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2003 01:23:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145333 nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) wrote in message news:... > I've been looking around and it seems like one can get vintage systems > for next to nothing nowadays. I have a few bucks lying around that > I'd like to use to get an interesting vintage system to take apart, > play with, and generally muck around in, but I'm a little overwhelmed > by the possibilities. My question is that given the choice of any > (reasonably priced of course... i.e. no Altair, Cray, etc...) vintage > system, which would you advise to someone who is interested in > breaking it apart and seeing how it works. Looking around, the > systems that have jumped out at me initially are: > > 1) Apple ][ - This one stuck out at first because it seems to be the > most flexible and probably easy to find parts for. Plus, it has a > breadboard in the Mobo, so that alone put it at the top of my list. > > 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but > in reality I can get 90% of the system's appeal just by using an > emulator. I was considering the 128 also just to play around with > CP/M. > > 3) Commodore SuperPet - I like the dual cpu layout and the > availability for high level language compilers, but aside from that > I'm a little fuzzy on the technical upside. > > 4) Some Lisp machine - This would be #1 on my list except that they > are either too expensive or too big. > > Aside from these I'm at a lose. Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > -m I don't what those others have, but an Apple ][ has a lot of basic 74xx TTL logic making it easy to tinker with. I used to tinker with mine all the time. I added a one-shot triggered by the keyboard strobe and sent the pulse to the speaker for a hardware key-click. I added a switchable inverter to the video circuit to give me black letters on a white background. Pre-MacIntosh! Later, I reprogrammed the character generator PROM with inverted bit patterns allowing inverse text with normal graphics. I added a DAC to the video to make grey-scale graphics (never worked very well). Homemade key-pads, game paddles made with 10-turn potentiometers for precise (if slow) positioning, a game port I/O device, it was a lot of fun in its day. The bad news was the socketed chips. Easy to tinker with but horribly unreliable. Mine started flaking out after just a couple years and I eventually unsoldered EVERY socket on the board and replaced them with high-reliability sockets. After 25 years, you may have a lot of fun just getting one to work. Before you shell out any bucks, you might want to first get hold of the schematics and ROM listings. ###### From: nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 11 Jul 2003 19:40:19 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 138.88.224.51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1057977620 18075 127.0.0.1 (12 Jul 2003 02:40:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2003 02:40:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145316 > For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically > interesting? I dunno... I actually looked into that; inspired by a cool site that detailed how to build your own. Sadly, it seems to be difficult to find one outside of the UK, so most likely the shipping would kill me. -m ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: <4a2fcfa5be1a823ff90b65eff9e4397b@free.teranews.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 05:11:52 GMT Lines: 57 From: Larry Anderson Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Reply-To: larry@portcommodore.com References: User-Agent: KNode/0.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!free.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145128 On the Commodore 64 everythinfg you need is in ROM so you won't be looking for disks (or trying to find a boot disk to format disks to use disks, etc.) On the Apple II and SuperPET you will need specific DOS or language disks to get the full use out of the machines (in the case of the SuperPET there is the built-in Commodore BASIC mode but the others have to be loaded from floppies...) Then again the Apple II disks I believe aren't to hard to create on a PC drive(right?). Also if space is a Factor an Apple IIc tucks away nicly. (for the Commodroe 64, you would look for an SX-64 as a portable equivalant. The Commodore 128 is interesting too it has TWO BASICs in ROM the original 64 (V2) BASIC and the more advanced 128 (V7.0) BASIC. CP/M is also available if you have the right drives and CP/M system Disks. But if you just want to fiddle with hardware like the user port, the 64 is proabably all you would need. Also the Atari 400/800 is an interesting computer line, but you have to locate more gadgets (like an 850 serial adapter, etc) as well as a boot disk to play with the machine fully. Fogus wrote: > I've been looking around and it seems like one can get vintage systems > for next to nothing nowadays. I have a few bucks lying around that > I'd like to use to get an interesting vintage system to take apart, > play with, and generally muck around in, but I'm a little overwhelmed > by the possibilities. My question is that given the choice of any > (reasonably priced of course... i.e. no Altair, Cray, etc...) vintage > system, which would you advise to someone who is interested in > breaking it apart and seeing how it works. Looking around, the > systems that have jumped out at me initially are: > > 1) Apple ][ - This one stuck out at first because it seems to be the > most flexible and probably easy to find parts for. Plus, it has a > breadboard in the Mobo, so that alone put it at the top of my list. > > 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but > in reality I can get 90% of the system's appeal just by using an > emulator. I was considering the 128 also just to play around with > CP/M. > > 3) Commodore SuperPet - I like the dual cpu layout and the > availability for high level language compilers, but aside from that > I'm a little fuzzy on the technical upside. > > 4) Some Lisp machine - This would be #1 on my list except that they > are either too expensive or too big. > > Aside from these I'm at a lose. Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > -m ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 07:35:02 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1057991703.69031@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057991703 8918 80.177.7.220 (12 Jul 2003 06:35:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 06:35:03 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145231 "Fogus" wrote in message news:d1d8d7c9.0307111840.13e93d17@posting.google.com... > > For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically > > interesting? I dunno... > > I actually looked into that; inspired by a cool site that detailed how > to build your own. Sadly, it seems to be difficult to find one > outside of the UK, so most likely the shipping would kill me. Perhaps not. Spectrums were tiny little computers, book sized, very light. The PSU is external, you can probably cobble one up yourself. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Bill Bradley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 13:39:47 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> <1057991703.69031@saucer.planet.gong> In-Reply-To: <1057991703.69031@saucer.planet.gong> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145288 Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Fogus" wrote in message > news:d1d8d7c9.0307111840.13e93d17@posting.google.com... > >>>For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically >>>interesting? I dunno... >> >>I actually looked into that; inspired by a cool site that detailed how >>to build your own. Sadly, it seems to be difficult to find one >>outside of the UK, so most likely the shipping would kill me. > > > Perhaps not. Spectrums were tiny little computers, book sized, very > light. The PSU is external, you can probably cobble one up yourself. If you mean the ZX-81, it was sold in the US as the Timex Sinclair 1000. I've got one sitting downstairs. The Spectrum 2068 was advertised here but I never actually saw one in person so it may well have been vaporware. Bill ###### From: Mikael Cardell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 15:29:24 +0200 Organization: Temple of the Moby Hack Lines: 21 Message-ID: <86wuem7dxn.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: sellafield.lysator.liu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.island.liu.se 1058102927 4576 130.236.254.103 (13 Jul 2003 13:28:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@island.liu.se NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 13:28:47 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) Cancel-Lock: sha1:pq8pIJBod/3eAqdWBm2Z+4U7Vs0= Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1!bredband!'newsfeed1.telenordia.se'!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.island.liu.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145244 If I could back to the early 1980s when I got my first home computer, I would consider getting a Dragon 32, a Microbee or, perhaps, a Luxor ABC80x instead of the losing Commodore I started out with. The Dragon 32 contained a 6809 and, especially compared to the Tandy Coco, had a much nicer keyboard and it could run OS9. The Microbees were Z80 based CP/M machines, but some models had some nice things such as battery backed RAM! What's more important is that they had a decent monitor and real 80 column text displays for real and standard serial ports, without costing a fortune. The Luxor machines were also Z80 based, but didn't run CP/M, but rather a built-in BASIC and a small ABC-DOS. The 800 models like the 806 and the 802 were more or less meant for business purposes, but would have been really nice as a home computer, I think. If anyone close to Sweden has one of these machines in something like a working condition, I would possibly be interested. MC ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4a2fcfa5be1a823ff90b65eff9e4397b@free.teranews.com> Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:26:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.35.38.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1058113574 82.35.38.159 (Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:26:14 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:26:14 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) X-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:26:15 MET DST (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!195.70.164.134.MISMATCH!news.tdcnorge.no!news01.chello.no!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145353 "Larry Anderson" wrote in message news:4a2fcfa5be1a823ff90b65eff9e4397b@free.teranews.com... > On the Commodore 64 everythinfg you need is in ROM so you won't be looking > for disks (or trying to find a boot disk to format disks to use disks, > etc.) > > On the Apple II and SuperPET you will need specific DOS or language disks to > get the full use out of the machines (in the case of the SuperPET there is > the built-in Commodore BASIC mode but the others have to be loaded from > floppies...) > > Then again the Apple II disks I believe aren't to hard to create on a PC > drive(right?). Also if space is a Factor an Apple IIc tucks away nicly. > (for the Commodroe 64, you would look for an SX-64 as a portable > equivalant. As the owner of several Apple //e and one //c plus a ][EuroPlus I would suggest a either a //e or ][+ (original ][ machines are getting kinda expensive) Drives are easily available on ebay. Creating a boot disk is easy, you just need a Super Serial card for the Apple ][ and a PC. You will need low density disks though (Getting hard to find now) the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroup FAQ has more details. For home hobbyist use personally I would recommend an enhanced //e (Which has some bugs fixed + A newer character rom and a 65C02) get several, that way you won't care if you blow it up. The older ][ and ][+ machines are more for collectors nowadays (Although they are pure TTL) and many of the more modern IDE cards won't work. You can create a nice machine with a bootable flash eprom (Say 64Mb) which gives loads of space to store floppies (remember a normal Apple disk only holds 143K) I believe thrift stores often have Apple //es available, if not ebay The apple stuff is under electronics and computers, computers and office products, Apple.Machintosh/vintage ($30 seems to be about the going price, shipping I would guess at around the same cost again) PeterI ###### From: Maccabeo Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> <1057960710.895627@saucer.planet.gong> Lines: 15 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:19:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.99.250.96 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@tin.it X-Trace: news1.tin.it 1058181574 151.99.250.96 (Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:19:34 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:19:34 MET DST Organization: TIN Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!peernews3.colt.net!news.it.colt.net!itgate.net!news-out.tin.it!news-in.tin.it!news1.tin.it.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145435 Hello Rupert :) Rupert Pigott wrote: > I can't ever remember actually liking > them because I was spoilt by having a BBC Micro, which had > a much nicer keyboard. Of course. And the BBC Master version also have the availability of the tube interface, on which one could plug a second processor (even if different from the main 6510 CPU, i.e. Z80, i80186 ...). Not to forget the Acorn Archimedes, the first RISC home computer, and the first machine to introduce the ARM technology (Acorn Risc Machine, aka Advanced Risc Machines ;)) which now is installed mainly on portable device such as cellular phones or PDAs. ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:28:13 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 82 Message-ID: References: <4a2fcfa5be1a823ff90b65eff9e4397b@free.teranews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1058194872 10428 193.71.197.12 (14 Jul 2003 15:01:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:01:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) X-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:01:13 MET DST (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!195.70.164.134.MISMATCH!news.tdcnorge.no!news01.chello.no!uio.no!193.75.75.20.MISMATCH!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145507 In article <4a2fcfa5be1a823ff90b65eff9e4397b@free.teranews.com>, Larry Anderson wrote: >On the Commodore 64 everythinfg you need is in ROM so you won't be looking >for disks (or trying to find a boot disk to format disks to use disks, >etc.) > >On the Apple II and SuperPET you will need specific DOS or language disks to >get the full use out of the machines (in the case of the SuperPET there is >the built-in Commodore BASIC mode but the others have to be loaded from >floppies...) > >Then again the Apple II disks I believe aren't to hard to create on a PC >drive(right?). Also if space is a Factor an Apple IIc tucks away nicly. >(for the Commodroe 64, you would look for an SX-64 as a portable >equivalant. The Apple ][ disks are _hard_ to make. You need to have some low-level formatter that runs the same modulation as the Apple ][ disk controller did. This controller was a marvel of engineering, in the robustness and compactness of the modulation; done with an amazaingly small number of LSxxx chips. Later controllers followed a whole different system for putting data on disks; so reading/writing Apple ][ disks may be a little hurdle. >The Commodore 128 is interesting too it has TWO BASICs in ROM the original >64 (V2) BASIC and the more advanced 128 (V7.0) BASIC. CP/M is also >available if you have the right drives and CP/M system Disks. But if you >just want to fiddle with hardware like the user port, the 64 is proabably >all you would need. If you are going to fiddle with the C64 user port, please remember that these lines are not TTL; they are barely TTL compatible for a single load; so get a C64 with socketed 6522's (the chip that provides the user ports) and a stack of these 6522's. Or build yourself a buffer with 74LS244/245's. Remember that the 6522 is unable to drive 74H or 74S chips reliably, so go for the real stuff. Interfacing a 6551 to the bus is not very difficult either, AFAIR there is a vacant mux line on one of the LS138/139's in there somewhere. >Also the Atari 400/800 is an interesting computer line, but you have to >locate more gadgets (like an 850 serial adapter, etc) as well as a boot >disk to play with the machine fully. > > >Fogus wrote: > >> I've been looking around and it seems like one can get vintage systems >> for next to nothing nowadays. I have a few bucks lying around that >> I'd like to use to get an interesting vintage system to take apart, >> play with, and generally muck around in, but I'm a little overwhelmed >> by the possibilities. My question is that given the choice of any >> (reasonably priced of course... i.e. no Altair, Cray, etc...) vintage >> system, which would you advise to someone who is interested in >> breaking it apart and seeing how it works. Looking around, the >> systems that have jumped out at me initially are: >> >> 1) Apple ][ - This one stuck out at first because it seems to be the >> most flexible and probably easy to find parts for. Plus, it has a >> breadboard in the Mobo, so that alone put it at the top of my list. >> >> 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but >> in reality I can get 90% of the system's appeal just by using an >> emulator. I was considering the 128 also just to play around with >> CP/M. >> >> 3) Commodore SuperPet - I like the dual cpu layout and the >> availability for high level language compilers, but aside from that >> I'm a little fuzzy on the technical upside. Make sure you get the 6509 side of the system as well. This require a number of floppies. >> 4) Some Lisp machine - This would be #1 on my list except that they >> are either too expensive or too big. >> >> Aside from these I'm at a lose. Any suggestions would be appreciated. -- mrr ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:46:35 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.18-20030602 ("Darts") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 71 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145490 Fogus wrote: > > 1) Apple ][ - This one stuck out at first because it seems to be the > most flexible and probably easy to find parts for. Plus, it has a > breadboard in the Mobo, so that alone put it at the top of my list. Lots of them around, but as they break down or get chucked away they start to become collectors' items. I'd go for the //e if you want classic Apple expandability but a slightly more modern experience. The //c is cute but really a 'closed box' containing most of a well-expanded //e in a semi-portable form. An Apple /// might be an amusing project, but they're fairly rare since nobody really wanted them at the time. > > 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but > in reality I can get 90% of the system's appeal just by using an > emulator. I was considering the 128 also just to play around with > CP/M. The new holders of the Commodore trademark seem to be getting snotty about the retro scene on that machine... The portable 64 was splendid - a friend had one when I was an undergrad. CP/M is again something you can emulate quite easily (yaze is the best I've come across). I've had a few nice CP/M boxes pass through my ownership over the last few years though. S/100 bus systems would be fun, means you can play with a lot of different cards.... > 3) Commodore SuperPet - I like the dual cpu layout and the > availability for high level language compilers, but aside from that > I'm a little fuzzy on the technical upside. Had a 6809 with 64k as well as the 6502 with 32, IIRC, and the 'extra' languages ran on the '09. I don't know if any of the memory was dual-ported and could talk to both... If I was looking for something weird from that era, how about the TRS-80 Model 16 - the one with a Z80 for I/O and backwards compatibility and a 68k running Xenix? > > 4) Some Lisp machine - This would be #1 on my list except that they > are either too expensive or too big. > > Aside from these I'm at a lose. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Some of the later Xerox workstations are pretty small, but they are pretty scarce - certainly on this side of the Atlantic. If you like lispms then Perqs will probably appeal too - although like lispms they're big and noisy and do take some effort to keep running. Workstations from Sun, SGI, IBM and DEC are pretty easy to get hold of, but not terribly interesting because of their comparative abundance. SGI are the most technically interesting, with Indigo2s being a particularly attractive price/performance point these days - and you can expand them a long way. If you're after something out of the ordinary, Apollo workstations (pre the HP takeover) are fun, as are older HPs (before they developed the PA-Risc). There's lots of interesting old HP kit out there from 68k-based single-user workstations down to little lab/personal/calculator machines like the HP-85. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 14 Jul 2003 20:42:38 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 39 Message-ID: <6u8yr1q7a9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4a2fcfa5be1a823ff90b65eff9e4397b@free.teranews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1058208158 488 10.0.3.2 (14 Jul 2003 18:42:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2003 18:42:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145551 Morten Reistad writes: > Larry Anderson wrote: > > > >available if you have the right drives and CP/M system Disks. But if you > >just want to fiddle with hardware like the user port, the 64 is proabably > >all you would need. > > If you are going to fiddle with the C64 user port, please remember that > these lines are not TTL; they are barely TTL compatible for a single > load; so get a C64 with socketed 6522's (the chip that provides the > user ports) and a stack of these 6522's. 6526es please. 6522 will not fit in an C64. And yes, they are wrecked easily. :-( > Interfacing a 6551 to the bus is not very difficult either, AFAIR > there is a vacant mux line on one of the LS138/139's in there somewhere. There are 2 deliberately vacant /CS pins on the expansion port. Mapped to address ranges DE00..DEFF and DF00..DFFF. And it is an LS139 in there. > >> 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but > >> in reality I can get 90% of the system's appeal just by using an > >> emulator. I was considering the 128 also just to play around with > >> CP/M. If you just want an user port, to control stuff, use an normal PCs LPT ports. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 14 Jul 2003 11:54:31 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1058208872 18045 127.0.0.1 (14 Jul 2003 18:54:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2003 18:54:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145691 nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) wrote in message news:... > My question is that given the choice of any > (reasonably priced of course... i.e. no Altair, Cray, etc...) vintage > system, which would you advise to someone who is interested in > breaking it apart and seeing how it works. >[...] > 1) Apple ][ - This one stuck out at first because it seems to be the > 2) Commodore 64 - that user port seems like a blast to play with, but > 3) Commodore SuperPet - I like the dual cpu layout and the > 4) Some Lisp machine - This would be #1 on my list except that they You seem to be ignoring all the bus-based systems out there in favor of "all-in-one" computers. (OK, the Apple ][ has a nice expansion bus, too, and you do list that as one of its virtues.) You say an Altair is out of your price range, but you're looking too much at brand names and not enough at substance. Lots of S-100 bus stuff shows up at surplus sales and in dumpsters, you just have to keep your eye out for it. Whether you want "An Altair" or you are happy just mucking about with random S-100 stuff is your call. Personally I think that mucking about with random S-100 stuff is not only more interesting, but more historically accurate. Crays (not Cray 1's) show up on E-bay in the high hundred $/low thousand $ range and often do not sell. The real issues here are: 1. Hauling the thing home. 2. Getting enough power to run it. 3. Finding a copy of the O/S to run on it. I know several folks who own their own Crays but none who operate them. Tim. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:41:33 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1058211694.166142@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> <1057960710.895627@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1058211694 20341 80.177.7.220 (14 Jul 2003 19:41:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:41:34 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145608 "Maccabeo" wrote in message news:alwQa.27875$it4.739193@news1.tin.it... > Hello Rupert :) > > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > I can't ever remember actually liking > > them because I was spoilt by having a BBC Micro, which had > > a much nicer keyboard. > > Of course. And the BBC Master version also have the availability of the tube > interface, on which one could plug a second processor (even if different > from the main 6510 CPU, i.e. Z80, i80186 ...). Err, actually the BBC Model B had the tube too. Wasn't it the tube that had the glitches on a line ? Can't remember. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:45:00 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1058211900.627062@saucer.planet.gong> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1058211900 20644 80.177.7.220 (14 Jul 2003 19:45:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:45:00 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145606 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vh5d1rgkqmerb3@corp.supernews.com... [SNIP] > If you're after something out of the ordinary, Apollo workstations (pre > the HP takeover) are fun, as are older HPs (before they developed the I still lust after DN10000s, the quad processor beasties. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 14 Jul 2003 19:49:03 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1058212143 11902 134.117.136.30 (14 Jul 2003 19:49:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2003 19:49:03 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145657 Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) writes: > > You say an Altair is out of your price range, but you're looking too > much at brand names and not enough at substance. Lots > of S-100 bus stuff shows up at surplus sales and in dumpsters, you just > have to keep your eye out for it. Whether you want "An Altair" or you are > happy just mucking about with random S-100 stuff is your call. Personally > I think that mucking about with random S-100 stuff is not only more interesting, > but more historically accurate. > That's a good point, because it likely was common. The Altair was hardly out before other companies were selling things that fit into the bus, Parasitic Engineering comes to mind. There was ample opportunity to buy boards from different manufacturers and put them together. You could certainly get generic motherboards (which back then of course was just a bunch of bus sockets), and of course there were third-party (like Godbout, Morrow or Mullen) motherboards that featured active termination. I'm sure it wasn't completely uncommon for the home builder to put together a metal case from whatever they had at hand, as well as the power supply (which of course were huge and linear back then). Certainly there were magazine articles in the hobby computer magazines about this sort of thing, and my impression (from the time, but only from the magazines) was that the "complete systems" were being bought by companies that could afford to plunk down big bucks at one time, while the hobbyist would buy in pieces as they could afford it, and hence had no real fidelity to a given manufacturer (at least, once things were out of the gate and MITS wasn't the only place to buy from). Michael ###### From: Mikael Cardell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:55:31 +0200 Organization: Temple of the Moby Hack Lines: 9 Message-ID: <863ch825h8.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: sellafield.lysator.liu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.island.liu.se 1058216097 15800 130.236.254.103 (14 Jul 2003 20:54:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@island.liu.se NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:54:57 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) Cancel-Lock: sha1:WhG0yiYdaPxC9AjZiWsdNsSCuIk= Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.netplace.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!news.stupi.se!news.stupi.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.island.liu.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145600 shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > I know several folks who own their own Crays but none who operate them. The Lysator Academic Computing Society, of which I am a member, has two Crays, nobel and curie. The latter, a decently equipped J90se with 32 CPUs and 8 gig RAM, is operational. http://www.lysator.liu.se/ ###### From: dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 14 Jul 2003 21:48:19 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <863ch825h8.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!usc.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145572 Mikael Cardell wrote: > shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: >> I know several folks who own their own Crays but none who operate them. > The Lysator Academic Computing Society, of which I am a member, has > two Crays, nobel and curie. The latter, a decently equipped J90se with > 32 CPUs and 8 gig RAM, is operational. > http://www.lysator.liu.se/ How often are they used? -- David Griffith ###### From: never+mail@panix.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:51:25 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <1057991703.69031@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058219485 26565 166.84.1.3 (14 Jul 2003 21:51:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:51:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Clueful-responder: echo "never-reply+panix=com" | tr "-+=" "+@." X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145602 In article , Bill Bradley wrote: >Rupert Pigott wrote: >> "Fogus" wrote in message >> news:d1d8d7c9.0307111840.13e93d17@posting.google.com... >> >>>>For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically >>>>interesting? I dunno... >>> >>>I actually looked into that; inspired by a cool site that detailed how >>>to build your own. Sadly, it seems to be difficult to find one >>>outside of the UK, so most likely the shipping would kill me. >> >> >> Perhaps not. Spectrums were tiny little computers, book sized, very >> light. The PSU is external, you can probably cobble one up yourself. > > If you mean the ZX-81, it was sold in the US as the Timex Sinclair >1000. I've got one sitting downstairs. Didn't most of the US models end up as doorstops at Commodore when they offered a $100 trade-in value for any personal computer when purchasing a C-64? -- Bizoos, n.: The millions of tiny individual bumps that make up a basketball. -- Rich Hall, "Sniglets" ###### From: Bill Bradley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:10:57 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1057991703.69031@saucer.planet.gong> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145669 Michael Roach wrote: > Didn't most of the US models end up as doorstops at Commodore when they > offered a $100 trade-in value for any personal computer when purchasing > a C-64? No... they were too light to use as doorstops. Bill ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 14 Jul 2003 23:48:09 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1057991703.69031@saucer.planet.gong> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1058226489 18962 134.117.136.30 (14 Jul 2003 23:48:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jul 2003 23:48:09 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145665 Bill Bradley (senator@NOSPAMstargate.net) writes: > Michael Roach wrote: >> Didn't most of the US models end up as doorstops at Commodore when they >> offered a $100 trade-in value for any personal computer when purchasing >> a C-64? > > No... they were too light to use as doorstops. > > Bill > I thought the whole point of that application/joke was that the computer was used as a wedge, rather than a weight. Wedge it under the door (the slope where the keyboard is goes under the door) and it holds the door in place. Michael ###### Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 06:29:17 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Message-ID: <20030715062917.1dfce24b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> <1057960710.895627@saucer.planet.gong> <1058211694.166142@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2003 17:00:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p1488.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1058288412 maya.euronet.nl 137 62.234.203.208:3038 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!195.34.132.48.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.chello.at!amsnews01.chello.com!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145671 On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:41:33 +0100 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> Err, actually the BBC Model B had the tube too. Wasn't it the RP> tube that had the glitches on a line ? Can't remember. The tube was an overengineered mess - if the ferrite beads decorating the original were anything to go by glitches were highly probable. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 15 Jul 2003 05:04:14 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.190.164.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1058270655 9311 127.0.0.1 (15 Jul 2003 12:04:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2003 12:04:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145690 Well, I listed those machines mainly because of my one-time exposure to them (minus Lispm). I would be interested to hear any suggestions that you might have of some nice s100 systems. -m shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote in message news:... Lots of S-100 bus stuff shows up at surplus sales and in dumpsters, you just have to keep your eye out for it. Whether you want "An Altair" or you are happy just mucking about with random S-100 stuff is your call. ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: 15 Jul 2003 11:00:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1058292049 29052 127.0.0.1 (15 Jul 2003 18:00:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2003 18:00:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145695 nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) wrote in message news:... > Well, I listed those machines mainly because of my one-time exposure > to them (minus Lispm). Well understood... there are only a very few of us here (and I'm not among them) who have a truly broad appreciation. > I would be interested to hear any suggestions > that you might have of some nice s100 systems. Get a backplane, a power supply, a CPU, some memory, and a disk controller. Write your own CP/M BIOS (the "CP/M Customization Guide" and a real front panel will come in handy though are not strictly necessary). IOW, the system is what you make of it! Tim. ###### From: never+mail@panix.com.invalid (Michael Roach) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:44:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A small notepad underneath my in box Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <863ch825h8.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058298284 21474 166.84.1.1 (15 Jul 2003 19:44:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:44:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Clueful-responder: echo "never-reply+panix=com" | tr "-+=" "+@." X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca1-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145781 In article , wrote: >Mikael Cardell wrote: > >> The Lysator Academic Computing Society, of which I am a member, has >> two Crays, nobel and curie. The latter, a decently equipped J90se with >> 32 CPUs and 8 gig RAM, is operational. > >> http://www.lysator.liu.se/ > >How often are they used? Each winter? -- "I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter." -- Winston Churchill ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:47:43 -0800 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3F14767F.DFDC4AA7@computer.org> References: <3F0F2995.886EB82@computer.org> <1057991703.69031@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1058302035 10413743 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145746 Bill Bradley wrote: > > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Fogus" wrote in message > > news:d1d8d7c9.0307111840.13e93d17@posting.google.com... > > > >>>For sheer numbers, a Sinclair/Timex should be on the list. Technically > >>>interesting? I dunno... > >> > >>I actually looked into that; inspired by a cool site that detailed how > >>to build your own. Sadly, it seems to be difficult to find one > >>outside of the UK, so most likely the shipping would kill me. > > > > > > Perhaps not. Spectrums were tiny little computers, book sized, very > > light. The PSU is external, you can probably cobble one up yourself. > > If you mean the ZX-81, it was sold in the US as the Timex Sinclair > 1000. I've got one sitting downstairs. > The Spectrum 2068 was advertised here but I never actually saw one in > person so it may well have been vaporware. > > Bill I've got two of the 2068s: my dad got interested in computers through a 1000, and decided to try upgrading. Want one? Sam ###### From: hb-usenet@bsls.de (Heiko Berges) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:48:29 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1058370509 05 19023 SjTCVlRESmHzVD 030716 15:48:29 X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@t-online.de X-ID: EkXNFwZbZeMMYb1h8oo-LMBdFVB-g2HJu7JZ8xJA7tD5oMV-DUU+Ej User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145861 Tim Shoppa wrote: >I know several folks who own their own Crays but none who operate them. Does a Y-MP EL count? http://www.cray-cyber.org/index.php?inl_srf=yes&cat=systems&page=yel It's operational, online 24x7 and you can have an account on it, AFAIK. Heiko ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:42:55 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1058398965 2248 194.222.24.177 (16 Jul 2003 23:42:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:42:45 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146248 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: >An Apple /// might be an amusing project, but they're fairly rare since >nobody really wanted them at the time. This is the 'pain in the arse' meaning of 'amusing': finding an Apple /// that will stay working is not going to be easy. There were a number of hardware design problems with them, the most frequent being that the ribbon cable connecting the two principal parts of the circuitry intersected with the case. On those rare computers where the insulation wasn't stripped by the case it was still close enough that every time you picked the computer up you stood a chance of jogging one end of the cable against the socket it was plugged into. If the ribbon didn't come out of the socket the socket gradually broke the solder connection with the circuit board. After that I think the problem was some mysterious power spike which tended to make the thing hang for no apparent reason. I don't know if they ever got to the bottom of that (video circuitry ?). Had Apple ever produced enough Apple ///s to go beyond the first production run I'm sure these problems would have been fixed but it just wasn't a successful-enough machine to be perfected. By the time they'd sold enough to get bug reports the Lisa was taking over. Try a Coleco Adam instead. Or one of the S-100 bus machines -- I forget the names now but our school had one called a ' 2000'. ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:28:28 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1fy8qwq.ll3ym91bly7uoN%proto@panix.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058462914 14197 166.84.199.79 (17 Jul 2003 17:28:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:28:34 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!diablo.voicenet.com!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146261 Tim Shoppa wrote: > Crays (not Cray 1's) show up on E-bay in the high hundred $/low thousand $ > range and often do not sell. The real issues here are: > 1. Hauling the thing home. > 2. Getting enough power to run it. > 3. Finding a copy of the O/S to run on it. And if you operate it, the police might raid you, seeing your infrared signiture, your electric bill and concluding it's enough evidence to conclude you're growing pot. :< -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:11:25 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 53 Message-ID: <20030718211114822+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p23-max2.inv.ihug.co.nz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1058519485 14874 203.173.222.215 (18 Jul 2003 09:11:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:11:25 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146170 In Simon Slavin wrote: > In article , > Pete Fenelon wrote: > >>An Apple /// might be an amusing project, but they're fairly rare >>since nobody really wanted them at the time. > > This is the 'pain in the arse' meaning of 'amusing': finding an > Apple /// that will stay working is not going to be easy. There > were a number of hardware design problems with them, the most > frequent being that the ribbon cable connecting the two principal > parts of the circuitry intersected with the case. On those rare > computers where the insulation wasn't stripped by the case it > was still close enough that every time you picked the computer > up you stood a chance of jogging one end of the cable against the > socket it was plugged into. If the ribbon didn't come out of the > socket the socket gradually broke the solder connection with the > circuit board. > > After that I think the problem was some mysterious power spike > which tended to make the thing hang for no apparent reason. I > don't know if they ever got to the bottom of that (video > circuitry ?). > > Had Apple ever produced enough Apple ///s to go beyond the first > production run I'm sure these problems would have been fixed but > it just wasn't a successful-enough machine to be perfected. By > the time they'd sold enough to get bug reports the Lisa was > taking over. They sold the Apple III for over three years, from 1980 to 1984, and even sold an Apple III Plus for a few months at the end. Sales were slow, but not so slow that it was all from one production run! What killed it was a combination of the early hardware problems, trying to sell it to the same business market that the new IBM PC was being sold too, and the poor Apple II emulation. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - FutureCop:LAPD - iMac Game Wizard http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws/ ________________________________________________________________________ "..we discovered that, at least as of a few years ago, every tactical nuclear weapon in Europe manned by U.S. personnel was targeted by an Apple II computer. Now, we didn't sell computers to the military; they went out and bought them at a dealer's, I guess. But it didn't make us feel good to know that our computers were being used to target nuclear weapons in Europe. The only bright side of it was that at least they weren't [Radio Shack] TRS-80s! Thank God for that." Steve Jobs, Playboy interview, 1985 ###### From: "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20030718211114822+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.207.204.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1058548817 12.207.204.17 (Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:20:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:20:17 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:20:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145961 "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message news:20030718211114822+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... (snip) > They sold the Apple III for over three years, from 1980 to 1984, and > even sold an Apple III Plus for a few months at the end. Sales were slow, > but not so slow that it was all from one production run! > > What killed it was a combination of the early hardware problems, trying > to sell it to the same business market that the new IBM PC was being > sold too, and the poor Apple II emulation. And regular DOS wasn't good enough so they had to make a more Sophisticated Operating System, called AppleSOS. (You have to pronounce it.) -- glen ###### From: Mikael Cardell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Technically interesting vintage computers? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:14:34 +0200 Organization: Temple of the Moby Hack Lines: 4 Message-ID: <86vftxwoed.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> References: <863ch825h8.fsf@fuckup.hack.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: sellafield.lysator.liu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.island.liu.se 1058692433 24865 130.236.254.103 (20 Jul 2003 09:13:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@island.liu.se NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 09:13:53 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.1001 (Gnus v5.10.1) Emacs/21.3 (berkeley-unix) Cancel-Lock: sha1:2r8Ex4ZO8aJgG3VCDy8mwhtYv7U= Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.net.uni-c.dk!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.island.liu.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146146 The J90 is in continous use by a small user community, but the Y/MP is not running at the moment. MC