From: nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 1 Jul 2003 05:27:50 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.151.238.120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1057062470 8220 127.0.0.1 (1 Jul 2003 12:27:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2003 12:27:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143197 I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know why. Thanks. -m ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 03 11:34:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVblDyokzNAxg4HRSRSPZYx2hCswZa/T0ywFPB7i6fTay2BmI1pMKdre X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2003 13:39:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-142 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143040 In article , nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) wrote: >I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the >'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained >why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have >examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know >why. I've never met an Apple so I'm answering based on listening to those who have. An Apple was a system that didn't prevent people from getting work done. It was also a system that the user could own without having some PHB or software type telling them when they can the machine. Owning your own system gave one a feeling of god power, especially if you're doing something useful with it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:06:54 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143154 Fogus wrote: > I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the > 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained > why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have > examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know > why. The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive in various forms for almost a decade. There was nothing earth-shatteringly original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with colour graphics, 6502 CPUs, expansion slots etc. before -- , but it was a great piece of *engineering* - a minimal solution that was adequate for many people's needs. Some parts (Wozniak's disk controller in particular) were elegant by any engineering standards. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:42:44 +0100 Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057070570 27780 62.49.243.90 (1 Jul 2003 14:42:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:42:50 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143144 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg35bukdt9kh0a@corp.supernews.com... > Fogus wrote: > > I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the > > 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained > > why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have > > examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know > > why. > > The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, > than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive in > various forms for almost a decade. There was nothing earth-shatteringly > original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with colour > graphics, 6502 CPUs, expansion slots etc. before -- , but it was a > great piece of *engineering* - a minimal solution that was adequate > for many people's needs. Some parts (Wozniak's disk controller in > particular) were elegant by any engineering standards. The color generation and hires were elegant (Feed in an area of RAM in rather than the character generator ROM), the slots didn't need loads of TTL to do decode logic, plug and play ROM design for I/O expansion. Plus it used pure TTL rather than 6845 CRT chip (Part number may well be wrong). He was also one of the first to spot that since the 6502 didn't use the bus during half of the clock he could use that to drive the display and do ram refresh at the same time. Finally the switch mode PSU design which I think was the first to ship on a home computer? Oh and as Pete says the hardware for the floppy disc controller is pretty good too. Basically it's one of those beautiful designs that is so obviously right for it's target market. (Woz said in an old byte interview it was to write breakout in basic) The only screwups I can think off are lack of timer interrupts, DMA was a pain and the keyboard design was lousy for games. I almost forgot the use of a quad 555 timer to do the joystick. IBM copied this on the PC. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:55:42 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143122 Peter Ibbotson wrote: (excellent summary deleted - thanks Peter) > > The color generation and hires were elegant (Feed in an area of RAM in > rather than the character generator ROM), the slots didn't need loads of TTL > to do decode logic, plug and play ROM design for I/O expansion. The plug'n'play ROM design pretty much came free with using a CPU that worked on memory-mapped I/O, but I agree that the elegant mixing of the I/O and the ROM used for 'device drivers' on the address bus was neat. > Plus it used > pure TTL rather than 6845 CRT chip (Part number may well be wrong). Yes, part number was right if you mean the near-ubiquitous chip that most micros of the early 80s used. Did the Apple pre-date the 6845 anyway? (Recipe for typical 80s home micro: take CPU, 6845 and GI AY-3-8910. Add RAM. Add cheap video modulator... and hope!) > Finally the switch mode PSU design which I think was the first to ship on a > home computer? I think it was, but my field isn't power or analogue electronics ;) > Oh and as Pete says the hardware for the floppy disc > controller is pretty good too. > > Basically it's one of those beautiful designs that is so obviously right for > it's target market. (Woz said in an old byte interview it was to write > breakout in basic) > > The only screwups I can think off are lack of timer interrupts, DMA was a > pain and the keyboard design was lousy for games. It was lousy for most things (though felt OK), not rectified until the ][e which had a beautifully crisp and well-designed keyboard and built-in upper/lower support. The only thing Apple missed with the ][ was putting upper/lowercase (on both keyboard or screen) into the system from the start, really. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 1 Jul 2003 15:07:32 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1057072052 7357 134.117.136.30 (1 Jul 2003 15:07:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2003 15:07:32 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143084 Pete Fenelon (pete@fenelon.com) writes: > Peter Ibbotson wrote: > >> Plus it used >> pure TTL rather than 6845 CRT chip (Part number may well be wrong). > > Yes, part number was right if you mean the near-ubiquitous chip that > most micros of the early 80s used. Did the Apple pre-date the 6845 anyway? > I think it did, and surely if not it was still a relatively new part. That's the point of the Apple, it kept manufacturing costs down by using generic parts. If it had used some fancy video controller IC at that time, it likely would have added considerably to the cost. Instead, the Apple II stayed with a 40 column video display, which also meant that it was still readable on a tv set. And of course, one neat bit about the video in the Apple II was that it used the video refresh circuitry to refresh the dynamic ram. If something like the 6845 had been used, it would have likely had separate video ram (more extra cost), and there'd still be a need for circuitry to refresh the dynamic ram. By designing the video as it was done, these two tasks were accomplished by the same circuitry. Michael ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:09:26 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057072167 12756 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 15:09:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:09:27 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143068 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg35bukdt9kh0a@corp.supernews.com... > Fogus wrote: > > I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the > > 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained > > why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have > > examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know > > why. > > The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, The odd thing was : It cost an arm and a flipping leg compared to a BBC 'B', and that was always "too expensive". :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:39:58 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143113 Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message > news:vg35bukdt9kh0a@corp.supernews.com... >> Fogus wrote: >> > I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the >> > 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained >> > why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have >> > examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know >> > why. >> >> The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, > > The odd thing was : It cost an arm and a flipping leg compared > to a BBC 'B', and that was always "too expensive". :) > Apples were always priced "imaginatively" over here - seemingly dollars-for-pounds back when the pound was worth more than two dollars. I certainly couldn't ever afford one of my own :( (ISTR a 48k EuroPlus was about 600-700 quid towards the end of its life, vs a BBC B's 399). Then again, Apples weren't pitched as home computers over here, really. I don't know whether that was a function of Apple's UK importers/dealers deciding to take them up-market, customs and excise forcing them upmarket, or what! Apple ][s in the UK seemed most popular in higher education, software development for smaller micros, some control/automation/instrumentation apps, and in some pioneering schools - they never achieved mass-market penetration in the way they did in the States. Of the whole Apple ][ family the one I still covet is the //c, although in many respects that's the least Apple-like of them all, being a high-integration slotless design that included virtually everything anyone could want on the motherboard! I spent a lot of time when I was about 15 trying to price up an Apple clone - various Far Eastern and Brazilian clones (!! - the Brazilian micro scene in the 80s seemed to be entirely made up of dubiously-legal clones) crept into the UK... I remember Franklin, Tashkl, Unitron, and a few others. Oh and there was the dreadful Microprofessor II! I think Bill Unsworth's lot up in Warrington (u-micro) did a cheap apple clone aimed at process-control, too- they later turned into ISP u-net didn't they? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Bill Bradley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:04:45 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143125 Fogus wrote: > I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the > 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained > why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have > examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know > why. > > Thanks. > -m Using discrete logic for the floppy drive controller (at the time a PC drive controller card went for at least half the price of a II), using the screen update to refresh the RAM (allowing the use of less expensive DRAM main memory without adding any additional components). To really appreciate the design you'd need to look at the number of speciallized chips (Video, Floppy Drive, DMA, etc.) on machines of the time to appreciate the design elegance of the II. Bill ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 01 Jul 2003 13:37:05 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 18 Sender: alderson+news@panix5.panix.com Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057081025 524 166.84.1.5 (1 Jul 2003 17:37:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 17:37:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca1-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143095 Pete Fenelon writes: > There was nothing earth-shatteringly original about the Apple ][ -- there had > been micros with colour graphics, 6502 CPUs, expansion slots etc. before -- ^^^^^^^^ Are you *sure* about that? I remember one of the interesting things about the Apple being that it used the 6502 instead of the usual 8080. Hmm, I think the first ad I saw was in Popular Electronics in late '75 or early '76--the woodcut one with Newton sitting under an apple tree. I don't remember Ohio Scientific or Commodore or Atari or SwTPC before then; have some bits faded? Or are you distinguishing between the Apple and the Apple ][ in this thread? If so, should you? -- Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 18:06:01 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!140.99.99.194.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143159 Rich Alderson wrote: > Pete Fenelon writes: > >> There was nothing earth-shatteringly original about the Apple ][ -- there had >> been micros with colour graphics, 6502 CPUs, expansion slots etc. before -- > ^^^^^^^^ > > Are you *sure* about that? I remember one of the interesting things about the > Apple being that it used the 6502 instead of the usual 8080. Hmm, I think the > first ad I saw was in Popular Electronics in late '75 or early '76--the woodcut > one with Newton sitting under an apple tree. I don't remember Ohio Scientific > or Commodore or Atari or SwTPC before then; have some bits faded? > > Or are you distinguishing between the Apple and the Apple ][ in this thread? I was mainly thinking of things like the AIM and KIM, which I thought predated the Apple - I could well be wrong. > If so, should you? Probably not ;) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:42:35 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Jul 2003 19:52:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.247.95 X-Trace: 1057089123 news.gradwell.net 56601 cbh/80.3.247.95 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!easynet-quince!easynet.net!news-peer-lilac.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143015 According to Pete Fenelon : > Apples were always priced "imaginatively" over here - seemingly > dollars-for-pounds back when the pound was worth more than two dollars. > I certainly couldn't ever afford one of my own :( ... snip ... I've only seen an Apple 2 "in the flesh" on a single occasion, lurking at the back of a computer shop in Newcastle 20 odd years ago. I know what you mean about the "imaginitive pricing" in that a very basic spec Apple was anything from 2 to 3 times the cost of its competition (even including other expensive things like the RM 480z, IIRC) I could never understand why they almost completely priced themselves out of the market over here, especially since they could've sold boat-loads in the early '80s microcomputer boom. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Currently playing: random early '80s radio stuff http://www.chrishedley.com - assorted stuff, inc my genealogy. Gan canny! ###### Message-ID: <3F020710.1981237C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1057090476 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:14:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:14:36 GMT Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 20:48:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143206 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > nospam@lacrymology.com (Fogus) wrote: > >I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the > >'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained > >why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have > >examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know > >why. > > I've never met an Apple so I'm answering based on listening > to those who have. An Apple was a system that didn't prevent > people from getting work done. It was also a system that the > user could own without having some PHB or software type telling > them when they can the machine. Owning your own system gave > one a feeling of god power, especially if you're doing something > useful with it. > The circuit board for the Apple ][ was designed to look "pleasing". IIRC, the case was designed by some industrial designer to look neat and be functional. Woz did his best to minimize the chip count. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 21:59:16 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1057093156.402513@saucer.planet.gong> References: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057093157 5787 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 20:59:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:59:17 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143063 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg3aqe19b9f165@corp.supernews.com... [SNIP] > Of the whole Apple ][ family the one I still covet is the //c, although Ah, now that did look like a neat bit of kit, my dentist's receptionist used one for many years. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3f021bee$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 1 Jul 2003 16:40:30 -0800 X-Trace: 1 Jul 2003 16:40:30 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142961 Fogus wrote: >> I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the >> 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained >> why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have >> examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know why. I didn't own a II, but a friend did as well as one other tape based machine. It came as a complete system. If you saw at the time the other 8080 based systems, one got an appreciation of it (this was still in the punch card era). I can't remember his first system with its casette tape, etc. I remember my amusement with the Apple joy stick. In article , Bill Bradley wrote: > Using discrete logic for the floppy drive controller (at the time a PC >drive controller card went for at least half the price of a II), using >the screen update to refresh the RAM (allowing the use of less expensive >DRAM main memory without adding any additional components). To really >appreciate the design you'd need to look at the number of speciallized >chips (Video, Floppy Drive, DMA, etc.) on machines of the time to >appreciate the design elegance of the II. These are good points. But it is important to remember that most micro systems at the time didn't use floppies. ###### From: "keep-it-clean" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:54:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.89.172.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1057107284 12.89.172.148 (Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:54:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:54:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143299 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg3jc9aduegpc5@corp.supernews.com... > > ...snip.... > > I was mainly thinking of things like the AIM and KIM, which I thought > predated the Apple - I could well be wrong. > Don't forget the SYM :-) I don't think any other machine had the built-in interface to write alphanumeric characters on a plain old analog oscilloscope. ###### From: "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.207.204.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1057116727 12.207.204.17 (Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:32:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:32:07 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 03:32:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143270 "Bill Bradley" wrote in message news:vg3fm26av95v60@corp.supernews.com... > using > the screen update to refresh the RAM (allowing the use of less expensive > DRAM main memory without adding any additional components I am pretty sure other machines were doing this. At least I knew people building machines that did it before then. Well, around that time building terminals was popular, as otherwise they were pretty expensive. Once you put the microprocessor in, it wasn't hard to allow programmability, but they didn't always. Anyway, for a terminal it was pretty obvious to use the display cycles to refresh. You could also consider the Apple as a programmable terminal. -- glen ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:39:10 +0100 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057135153 6867 62.49.243.90 (2 Jul 2003 08:39:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:39:13 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143313 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg3aqe19b9f165@corp.supernews.com... > Of the whole Apple ][ family the one I still covet is the //c, although > in many respects that's the least Apple-like of them all, being a > high-integration slotless design that included virtually everything > anyone could want on the motherboard! If you want one, I have one here that I bought off eBay with the little 9" monitor (The monitor case is quite badly cracked) you can have. It's got a German keyboard (This probably doesn't matter too much as the switch to US layout works). I'll sell it to someone who will treasure it for my cost+P&P. Sadly I haven't done much with it, other than getting DOS transferred over the serial cable. Mail me at peter at ibbotson.co.uk if you're interested as it's only gathering dust. ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:41:46 +0100 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057135306 27914 62.49.243.90 (2 Jul 2003 08:41:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:41:46 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143316 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg387erg59h9a8@corp.supernews.com... > Peter Ibbotson wrote: > > Plus it used > > pure TTL rather than 6845 CRT chip (Part number may well be wrong). > > Yes, part number was right if you mean the near-ubiquitous chip that > most micros of the early 80s used. Did the Apple pre-date the 6845 anyway? Dunno, the PET used it IIRC so it's probably around the same sort of time frame. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:46:20 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057135582 26854 62.49.243.90 (2 Jul 2003 08:46:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:46:22 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143309 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg3aqe19b9f165@corp.supernews.com... > > (ISTR a 48k EuroPlus was about 600-700 quid towards the end of its life, > vs a BBC B's 399). Then again, Apples weren't pitched as home computers > over here, really. I don't know whether that was a function of Apple's > UK importers/dealers deciding to take them up-market, customs and excise > forcing them upmarket, or what! I think it was in the main because they were used to do Visicalc and seen primarily as a business computer. Floppies were mandatory too. I got lucky in that my Dad bought an early Apple //e so I had to start programming seriously to play any games on as the games were around £30-£40 (When spectrum ones were £4-5) I ended up bootstrapping myself into a full assembler from the integer basic miniassembler and writing a handful of arcade games. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 09:12:16 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143307 Peter Ibbotson wrote: > "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message > news:vg387erg59h9a8@corp.supernews.com... >> Peter Ibbotson wrote: >> > Plus it used >> > pure TTL rather than 6845 CRT chip (Part number may well be wrong). >> >> Yes, part number was right if you mean the near-ubiquitous chip that >> most micros of the early 80s used. Did the Apple pre-date the 6845 anyway? > > > Dunno, the PET used it IIRC so it's probably around the same sort of time > frame. > The "Fat Forty" pets (circa '83) used 6845s, but I'm not sure the smaller/earlier ones did. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:38:55 -0700 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: lenny.tc.umn.edu 1057160332 900 160.94.172.8 (2 Jul 2003 15:38:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lenny.tc.umn.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!lenny.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143281 One downside of the clever design of the Apple ][, it was almost impossible to "tweak" the CPU up to a higher speed. It would have messed up all the vidoe and disk timing. On the other hand, an Ohio Scientific 2-P, you could just move one jumper and double the CPU speed, with no major impact on the video display. But the Ohio box was ugly, the software horrible. IIRC even Apple stuck with the basic, what was it, 1MHz clock rate on all the subsequent models. ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 16:46:26 +0100 Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057160789 25107 62.49.243.90 (2 Jul 2003 15:46:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 15:46:29 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143321 "George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message news:bduuac$s4$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu... > IIRC even Apple stuck with the basic, what was it, 1MHz clock rate on all > the subsequent models. //c+ had a built in accelerator to 3.5 Mhz? and the GS was 2.6Mhz -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:48:11 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1057168091.984112@saucer.planet.gong> References: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> <20030702063810.7dfffc71.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057168092 15114 80.177.7.220 (2 Jul 2003 17:48:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:48:12 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143374 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030702063810.7dfffc71.steveo@eircom.net... > On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 16:09:26 +0100 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> The odd thing was : It cost an arm and a flipping leg compared > RP> to a BBC 'B', and that was always "too expensive". :) > > It was a *lot* earlier than the Beebon. That us true of course, but even in '83 the Apple kept it's bonkers price - in the UK at least. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:49:47 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1057168187.555002@saucer.planet.gong> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057168187 15283 80.177.7.220 (2 Jul 2003 17:49:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:49:47 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!seven.news.surf.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!skynet.be!skynet.be!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143371 "Peter Ibbotson" wrote in message news:bduuok$ogj$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk... > "George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message > news:bduuac$s4$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu... > > IIRC even Apple stuck with the basic, what was it, 1MHz clock rate on all > > the subsequent models. > > > //c+ had a built in accelerator to 3.5 Mhz? and the GS was 2.6Mhz Wasn't the GS 65816 powered ? I was curious about one of those things, then compared the price with an Amiga A1000 and guess which won ? The A1000 hands down, thank funt I got that call right. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057168770 16234 80.177.7.220 (2 Jul 2003 17:59:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:59:30 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143372 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net... [SNIP] > The convenience of the Apple ][ as a lab computer has probably > been exceeded today by firewire based devices, it's been a long time > coming. I dunno, I found an early all (heavy guage) steel INTEL ATX OEM Tower PC with 2 screws to remove the side panel was really easy to work on... I even used it as a stool sometimes, damn nice case. Had a fixed cage that could take 4 3.5" drives and one that swung out that could take 6 3.5" drives. Nice layout, could see the whole Motherboard with the side panel off, tweak any jumper etc... I used to strip and rebuild that thing, RAM and all inside of 10 minutes. Reconfiguring/installing NT was another matter though, that definately took the smile off my face at a rebuild swiftly and precisely done. I'd pay good money for one of those cases this very day, with the proviso that the PSU was in good condition... :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.207.204.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1057173174 12.207.204.17 (Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:12:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:12:54 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:12:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143392 "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" wrote in message news:WwEMa.12$NW6.223@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net... > If you ever saw the schematic for the Commodore 64 (shipped with each > machine) you would know how that is done. Only one look tells you what > happened. There are two parts to the circuit, one for processing and one > for video. (Video was a big part of Commodore, with special ICs for doing > it.) In between there is a PLL circuit to keep the two oscillators phase > locked. If I remember, the ratio is something like 10:13, at least for NTSC > versions. > > It is necessary to phase lock them, unless very good filtering is done to > the output, otherwise very strange patterns show up on the screen as > different harmonics of the two oscillators beat. http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/prg-cpu-right.gif is the part including the PLL. There are two clocks, one runs at 8.1818MHz, and the other runs at either 14.31818MHz (for NTSC) or 17.734472 (for PAL), with a PLL consisting of a 74LS629N and MC4044, along with a preloadable counter. The preload value is different for NTSC and PAL, so that the ratio is either 7:4 or 13:6. Apparently, though, earlier designs didn't have the PLL, but used two different oscillators. -- glen ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030702080359.5b66d119.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 21:43:24 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: 02 Jul 2003 21:02:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.247.95 X-Trace: 1057179760 news.gradwell.net 56603 cbh/80.3.247.95 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!195.149.39.56.MISMATCH!news-peer-lilac.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143361 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > That was late! Apple ][ was around with the RM 380Z (and quite > a bit cheaper than that beastie too). When we had them at CCS they sat > neatly between the PET, TRS-80 ... range and the RM 380Z, Northstar > Horizon (extra in black), Cromemco Z3 ... range. Well remember that I'm just a young sprog in this newsfroup! I think I suspected that the 380z was hideously expensive, so presumably the 480z was their effort to compete with the BBC and other newly popular machines. Can't quite remember the price point, I think it was around £450 - £500 IIRC. > They kept their price for a long time because for many purposes > (particularly lab ones) the cheaper stuff wasn't a practical alternative. > Especially those labs with a rackful of custom interface cards. > > Did anyone remember to mention - those cases were tough! I suppose that explains one or two things: up until the arrival of cheap PCs, there wasn't that much in the way of microcomputers with that sort of expansion, at least inexpensive ones which didn't need a load of soldering, anyway! The BBC also looked like it had potential in that area, although it would've needed some external box to be hooked up I suppose, as well as being a bit late on the scene. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Currently playing: random early '80s radio stuff http://www.chrishedley.com - assorted stuff, inc my genealogy. Gan canny! ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 23:02:18 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030702080359.5b66d119.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143602 Chris Hedley wrote: > Well remember that I'm just a young sprog in this newsfroup! I think > I suspected that the 380z was hideously expensive, so presumably the > 480z was their effort to compete with the BBC and other newly popular > machines. Can't quite remember the price point, I think it was around > ?450 - ?500 IIRC. RML's original ads for the 380Z (when it was white not black ;)) said that their target user was the 'graduate research scientist'. During the early Thatcher years there were of course less and less of them and 380Zs started appearing in secondary schools. ;) They were lovely machines - built like tanks, excellent (for the time) graphics, superb keyboards, a fair bit of expandability and with one of the best ROM monitors I've ever come across. RML had some good software too - a pretty reasonable extended MBASIC with support for their graphics, a nice full-text database under CP/M (SIR), a cut-down but recognisably TECO-influenced text editor (TXED), and all the usual CP/M goodies. The 480Z was really an attempt to do a cheap, unexpandable 380Z in a small box, aimed squarely at schools - the original intention was that they should be networked (CP/NET I think) to 380Zs (hence "Link 480Z"), later they acquired external floppies of their own... > I suppose that explains one or two things: up until the arrival of > cheap PCs, there wasn't that much in the way of microcomputers with > that sort of expansion, at least inexpensive ones which didn't need > a load of soldering, anyway! The BBC also looked like it had potential > in that area, although it would've needed some external box to be > hooked up I suppose, as well as being a bit late on the scene. PETs had some use in labs too, having a not-totally-crippled IEEE488 (GPIB) interface.... pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Message-ID: <3F03D79C.AD8E237E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1057209401 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 03 Jul 2003 05:16:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 05:16:41 GMT Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 05:16:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143714 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > The convenience of the Apple ][ as a lab computer has probably > been exceeded today by firewire based devices, it's been a long > time coming. > And Apple came up with the Firewire interface...Firewire is Apple's name for it. The PC crowd refers to it as IEEE-1394. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:28:29 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030703072829.1ec2dd7a.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030702080359.5b66d119.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 2003 17:00:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0702.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1057251605 maya.euronet.nl 76745 194.134.210.193:2006 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143614 On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 23:02:18 -0000 Pete Fenelon wrote: PF> RML's original ads for the 380Z (when it was white not black ;)) It was the Northstar that came in black - once. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 07:34:05 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 2003 17:00:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0702.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1057251606 maya.euronet.nl 76745 194.134.210.193:2006 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143607 On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> OEM Tower PC with 2 screws to remove the side panel was really RP> easy to work on Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it three screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools approach of the Apple ][ was wonderful. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:00:02 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030703080002.3121e23b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1057072167.175176@saucer.planet.gong> <20030702063810.7dfffc71.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168091.984112@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 03 Jul 2003 17:00:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0702.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1057251608 maya.euronet.nl 76745 194.134.210.193:2006 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143592 On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:48:11 +0100 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message RP> news:20030702063810.7dfffc71.steveo@eircom.net... RP> > It was a *lot* earlier than the Beebon. RP> RP> That us true of course, but even in '83 the Apple kept it's RP> bonkers price - in the UK at least. Of course, the main market was still paying it and they weren't going to be getting new markets with the ][ range. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:24:13 +0100 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <1057168187.555002@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057224256 9170 62.49.243.90 (3 Jul 2003 09:24:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:24:16 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143606 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message news:1057168187.555002@saucer.planet.gong... > > "Peter Ibbotson" wrote in message > news:bduuok$ogj$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk... > > "George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message > > news:bduuac$s4$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu... > > > IIRC even Apple stuck with the basic, what was it, 1MHz clock rate on > all > > > the subsequent models. > > > > > > //c+ had a built in accelerator to 3.5 Mhz? and the GS was 2.6Mhz > > Wasn't the GS 65816 powered ? > Yep, fairly rare outside the US. By then in most of europe the folks who needed expansion had moved on to PC based systems. In the US the Apple ][ lived on in the educational system for a long time (in the same way the beeb did in the UK) so I think a lot of GS machines were sold into that market. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:54:33 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 45 Message-ID: <20030703235432248+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p58-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1057233273 6654 203.173.222.186 (3 Jul 2003 11:54:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:54:33 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143578 In Peter Ibbotson wrote: > "George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message > news:bduuac$s4$1@lenny.tc.umn.edu... >> IIRC even Apple stuck with the basic, what was it, 1MHz clock rate on >> all the subsequent models. > > > //c+ had a built in accelerator to 3.5 Mhz? and the GS was 2.6Mhz The Apple IIc+ (1988) was basically the same as the IIc (1984), but had a 4MHz 65C02 and a 3.5" floppy drive. The story goes that Apple originally was just going to replace the old 140KB 5.25" drive with an 800KB 3.5" drive. The problem they had was that a 1MHz 6502 just wasn't fast enough to control a 3.5" drive, so they designed a new custom IC especially for the IIc+. Then someone decided that a 1MHz CPU was a little embarrasing for a new model in 1988, so they licensed the Zip Chip from Zip Technologies. This was an accelerator which used a CPU running at 4MHz, some control logic and cache memory connected to the rest of the computer which continued to run at 1MHz. This got around the problem of the video in main memory, and also made the custom drive controller IC redundant, although it still got used. The Apple IIgs (1986) had a 16-bit 65816 CPU running at 2.8MHz. Programs in ROM ran at full speed, but delays caused by memory refresh meant it slowed to an effective 2.6MHz when running programs in RAM. The IIgs solved the problem of the 1MHz video memory by using memory shadowing. Main memory ran at full speed, but the first two 64KB banks, which contained the video buffers, were shadowed to another two banks of slow ( 1MHz) memory. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - FutureCop:LAPD - iMac Game Wizard http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws/ ________________________________________________________________________ "So we went to Atari and said, 'We've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' They said 'No'. Then we went to Hewlett-Packard; they said, 'We don't need you. You haven't got through college yet'." Apple Computer founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:11:33 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 49 Message-ID: <20030704001131805+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p58-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1057234293 7732 203.173.222.186 (3 Jul 2003 12:11:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:11:33 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143576 In Pete Fenelon wrote: > Fogus wrote: >> I've read many sources in my time that have universally lauded the >> 'beauty' of the Apple ]['s design and not a single one has explained >> why. Not having a ][ myself, and being too young at the time to have >> examined the one's that were available to me, I am curious to know >> why. > > The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, > than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive > in various forms for almost a decade. Almost a decade? The first Apple II shipped in June 1977. The Apple IIe was introduced in January 1983 and officially discontinued in November 1993. That's over 16 years. The original Apple II used a 1MHz 6502 and had between 4KB and 48KB of RAM on the motherboard, while the last IIe had a 1MHz 65C02 and 64KB of RAM, plus a 64KB expansion card "preinstalled". Both typically used a 140KB 5.25" floppy drive. Moore didn't know what he was talking about! > There was nothing earth- > shatteringly original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with > colour graphics, It was pretty rare in 1977 though. Were there any with it as standard, or were these on what would now be classed as "worstation-class graphics cards"? > 6502 CPUs, expansion slots etc. before -- , but it > was a great piece of *engineering* - a minimal solution that was > adequate for many people's needs. Some parts (Wozniak's disk > controller in particular) were elegant by any engineering standards. > > pete -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - FutureCop:LAPD - iMac Game Wizard http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws/ ________________________________________________________________________ "So we went to Atari and said, 'We've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' They said 'No'. Then we went to Hewlett-Packard; they said, 'We don't need you. You haven't got through college yet'." Apple Computer founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer ###### From: "Russ Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Lines: 40 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:42:46 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.38.216.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1057254167 216.38.216.149 (Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:42:47 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:42:47 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143527 > The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, > than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive in > various forms for almost a decade. There was nothing earth-shatteringly > original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with colour > graphics, 6502 CPUs, expansion slots etc. before -- , but it was a > great piece of *engineering* - a minimal solution that was adequate > for many people's needs. Some parts (Wozniak's disk controller in > particular) were elegant by any engineering standards. Depends on how you define "elegant". I never owned an Apple ][, but I recall that the disk controller (or at least the "OS", such as it was) didn't seem to bother with error checking. If a program loaded wrong, it just didn't work. There were no error messages. Also, when attempting to write to a write-protected disk, it would happily go through the motions, and not inform anyone that nothing was actually getting written. I don't think Apple got around to doing CRC error checking on floppies until the Macs that supported High-density disks. The early Macs used some form of checksum, I gather, but not CRC. That's why software for reading Mac diskettes on PC's only supported HD disks, because the hardware disk controller couldn't read the older 720K disks, as Apple used non-standard track formatting and error checking. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 18:27:26 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030702080359.5b66d119.steveo@eircom.net> <20030703072829.1ec2dd7a.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143618 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 23:02:18 -0000 > Pete Fenelon wrote: > > PF> RML's original ads for the 380Z (when it was white not black ;)) > > It was the Northstar that came in black - once. > 380Zs started off in white and spent most of their life in black ;) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:37:38 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1057268258.608093@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702080359.5b66d119.steveo@eircom.net> <20030703072829.1ec2dd7a.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057268272 16835 80.177.7.220 (3 Jul 2003 21:37:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:37:52 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143517 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg8tcesd3lrbb2@corp.supernews.com... > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 23:02:18 -0000 > > Pete Fenelon wrote: > > > > PF> RML's original ads for the 380Z (when it was white not black ;)) > > > > It was the Northstar that came in black - once. > > > > 380Zs started off in white and spent most of their life in black ;) We had a 380Z in my secondary school. I always wanted to have a play with it but no one knew how to use it so it was mostly used to collect dust. It was one of those situations where because the boss didn't know how to use it, none of the lesser vermin could have a play in case it broke. To be honest it looked like it could survive a tank running over it, so I do not think it would have broken. The keyboard came in a pressed steel case as I recall ! :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:42:09 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1057268529.477168@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net><1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057268544 17334 80.177.7.220 (3 Jul 2003 21:42:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:42:24 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143522 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net... > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> OEM Tower PC with 2 screws to remove the side panel was really > RP> easy to work on > > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it three > screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools approach of the > Apple ][ was wonderful. The card retaining screw was a *good* thing to have but not necessary for noodling around in the lab so to speak... On the shop floor though that retaining screw was a must - monkeys liked to fiddle with cables plugged in the back - occasionally picking the machine up by them... Cheers, Rupert ###### From: fath@nt.tu-darmstadt.de (Hauke Fath) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:16:40 +0200 Organization: TU Darmstadt Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1fxkhqs.19l1em218i5grkN%fath@nt.tu-darmstadt.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: blech.nt.e-technik.tu-darmstadt.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.tu-darmstadt.de 1057306598 18573 130.83.186.53 (4 Jul 2003 08:16:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.tu-darmstadt.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:16:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Deutsche-Rechtschreibung: Duden 19. Aufl. (1986) X-Copyright: Hauke Fath. All rights reserved. X-No-Markup: Yes User-Agent: MacSOUP/D-2.4.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!fath Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143424 Russ Holsclaw wrote: > I don't think Apple got around to doing CRC error checking on floppies > until the Macs that supported High-density disks. The early Macs used some > form of checksum, I gather, but not CRC. That's why software for reading > Mac diskettes on PC's only supported HD disks, because the hardware disk > controller couldn't read the older 720K disks, as Apple used non-standard > track formatting and error checking. While we're at this: Can anyone give a formal definition of the checksum algorithm used for the Macintosh GCR 400/800K track format? When I wrote the NetBSD/mac68k IWM driver, I essentially copied the respective code from .Sony because I did not see through. ;) If you wanted to do it in C, though, a description would come in handy. hauke -- Wer im Usenet gelesen werden will, sollte leserorientiert schreiben. Wer nur für sich schreiben will, dem ist mit einem Tagebuch vielleicht besser geholfen. Gelesen zu werden ist kein Recht, sondern ein Privileg. (Thore Tams in d.n.s.umgangsformen) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030702080359.5b66d119.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 18:57:35 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Date: 04 Jul 2003 18:11:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.247.95 X-Trace: 1057342260 news.gradwell.net 56601 cbh/80.3.247.95 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!news-peer-lilac.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143465 According to Pete Fenelon : > RML's original ads for the 380Z (when it was white not black ;)) > said that their target user was the 'graduate research scientist'. > During the early Thatcher years there were of course less and less > of them and 380Zs started appearing in secondary schools. ;) We used to have one (black!) in our secondary school in about 1980ish, it used to waft around the science block on a trolley doing various things. Not that I ever found out what, exactly, or for that matter why they seemed to have a collection of PCBs from Space Invaders type machines... > They were lovely machines - built like tanks, excellent (for the time) > graphics, superb keyboards, a fair bit of expandability and with > one of the best ROM monitors I've ever come across. RML had some > good software too - a pretty reasonable extended MBASIC with support > for their graphics, a nice full-text database under CP/M (SIR), a > cut-down but recognisably TECO-influenced text editor (TXED), and > all the usual CP/M goodies. Sadly I never got to see any of this stuff. I turned it on once but couldn't quite figure out what to do with it (bear in mind that the only other computers I'd used back then were the school's pair of PETs) > The 480Z was really an attempt to do a cheap, unexpandable 380Z in a > small box, aimed squarely at schools - the original intention was > that they should be networked (CP/NET I think) to 380Zs (hence "Link > 480Z"), later they acquired external floppies of their own... I'm glad you posted that, I'd wondered for a long time what the "Link" bit was supposed to mean. > PETs had some use in labs too, having a not-totally-crippled IEEE488 > (GPIB) interface.... Some of the engineers seemed to get awfully excited about buses with too many "e"s in the name, but since I'm too much of a software snob I've never quite got into the Joy of IEEE. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Currently playing: random early '80s radio stuff http://www.chrishedley.com - assorted stuff, inc my genealogy. Gan canny! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 19:00:02 +0100 Message-ID: <2bf4eb.sbn.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: 04 Jul 2003 18:11:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.247.95 X-Trace: 1057342260 news.gradwell.net 56601 cbh/80.3.247.95 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!news.ipv6.iphh.net!iphh.net!news.shlink.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!zen.net.uk!195.149.39.56.MISMATCH!news-peer-lilac.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143462 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it three > screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools approach of the > Apple ][ was wonderful. I remember Motorola trying to be as hardware-engineer friendly as that with their "hi fi system" enclosure for the likes of their MVME197 CPUs. I don't think it got very far since they seemed to drop the 88000 range in preference to the Power (or whatever it was) shortly afterwards. Shame, really. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Currently playing: random early '80s radio stuff http://www.chrishedley.com - assorted stuff, inc my genealogy. Gan canny! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <2bf4eb.sbn.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <20030704223802.0dfd19fd.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:43:45 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: 04 Jul 2003 22:11:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.247.95 X-Trace: 1057356660 news.gradwell.net 56603 cbh/80.3.247.95 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!luth.se!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!news-peer-lilac.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143795 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > They made Power based machines in those screwless hi-fi units > too. I met them when I worked at Motorola Munich. Lovely packaging, Some of the convenience was lost in the ones destined for the UK as for some obscure reason the cards still had to be screwed into place. > pity > about the OS (AIX). AIX seems to be a classic "love it or hate it" thing in much the same way as the infamous "vi vs emacs" thing. Never used it myself, just Motorola's own SVR4.0 offering for that platform which seemed pretty vanilla. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Currently playing: random early '80s radio stuff http://www.chrishedley.com - assorted stuff, inc my genealogy. Gan canny! ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 23:13:27 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057356747 9357 194.222.24.177 (4 Jul 2003 22:12:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:12:27 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143871 In article , "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: >On the other hand, an Ohio Scientific 2-P, you could just move one jumper >and >double the CPU speed, with no major impact on the video display. But >the Ohio box was ugly, the software horrible. Then why didn't they sell them that way ? ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 5 Jul 2003 00:37:22 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1057365442 13422 134.117.136.30 (5 Jul 2003 00:37:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 2003 00:37:22 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143814 Simon Slavin (slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost) writes: > In article , > "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: > >>On the other hand, an Ohio Scientific 2-P, you could just move one jumper >>and >>double the CPU speed, with no major impact on the video display. But >>the Ohio box was ugly, the software horrible. > > Then why didn't they sell them that way ? > > Because they were shipping with 1MHz 6502s? Because they were using slow memory? If you bumped up the clock, you might discover that something in there did not run at 2MHz. I had no problems doubling my OSI Superboard, but I got mine in the fall of 1981, 4 years after the computer first hit the market. The other OSI models might even be a bit earlier. So there may have been good reason to keep the clock at 1MHz, even if doubling it did work in many cases. Michael ###### From: Gary Tait Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <9rpdgv83eg2mmkk1c4ej9tq5u7kj8t8lp8@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 11:02:18 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.46.128.123 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1057417452 216.46.128.123 (Sat, 05 Jul 2003 11:04:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 11:04:12 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143883 On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 17:21:58 GMT, "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" wrote: >The original IBM PC ran at 4.77MHz, one third of the 4*3.579545MHz >oscillator needed to run the CGA board. I believe that PC clones with ISA >slots (maybe not for PCI only) still supply the 14.31818MHz signal, usually >only needed for CGA boards. > Actually, the main oscillators on modern PCs are PLL based on a 14.31818 Mhz reference clock, AFAIK. >But yes, it greatly simplifies the circuitry to run the processor at the >appropriate multiple of the video dot clock. The elegance of the >pple ][ would be gone. > >-- glen >-- glen > ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 23:00:41 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <20030702080359.5b66d119.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057442382 20876 194.222.24.177 (5 Jul 2003 21:59:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 21:59:42 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144046 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: >The 480Z was really an attempt to do a cheap, unexpandable 380Z in a >small box, aimed squarely at schools - the original intention was >that they should be networked (CP/NET I think) to 380Zs (hence "Link >480Z"), later they acquired external floppies of their own... They weren't such bad machines though I get the impression that RML was taken over or went broke, failing to carry through with their plans for that platform. But later still, RML went insane. The had supplier status to a large part of the educational system in the UK. However, IBM and IBM-compatible micros dominated the market and RML's customers didn't want RML's strange machines, they wanted Wintel machines. And being schools and therefore broke, they wanted /cheap/ Wintel machines. RML filled this demand rather than lose their customers to another supplier. I don't know what their first attempt was like but I saw what they were supplying about six years ago: quite nice external cases with cheap motherboards. And worse still, the motherboards didn't quite fit the cases so to get any cards in the slots you had to push either the card or the mobo out of alignment. I got called into a school that had just had a class of 40 of these things delivered. Six worked fine first time. I spend two hours (of chargable time !) doing my best but fastest work at my cheapest rate and got another ten working, giving up totally on the other four I'd tried. I wrote a report telling the school that they should refuse delivery on the entire lot. They did and RML sent in their field service company. One guy wiggled the insides around until the machine functioned, then the other guy used a glue gun to shoot glue into the insides to hold it all in place. Fortunately the school had called me in to watch this being done and I asked the field guy what would happen if we wanted to unplug a video card or the ethernet plug. He admitted that the glue meant that this was impossible and I pointed out to the school that what RML were supplying weren't compatibles any longer since you couldn't plug anything into them. They sent the whole lot back. How RML could slide so far down the quality ladder escapes me. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 00:14:50 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.236 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057468277 209.96.185.236 (6 Jul 2003 00:11:17 -0500) Lines: 24 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!news-out.superfeed.net!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144001 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, > than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive in > various forms for almost a decade. There was nothing earth-shatteringly > original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with colour I'm not sure about that... the 8-bit Atari line did more with fewer chips than an Apple, and had better graphics too. Their achilles heel (besides Atari management) was not giving 80-column text, and abandoning expansion bus options. -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### From: Bill Bradley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 01:14:00 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144045 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: >>The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, >>than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive in >>various forms for almost a decade. There was nothing earth-shatteringly >>original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with colour > > I'm not sure about that... the 8-bit Atari line did more with fewer > chips than an Apple, and had better graphics too. I think what Pete meant (or should have said) was with less _custom_ chips. Much of the Apple was off-the-shelf discrete chips not requiring any special fab. The Atari had it's own success, but I was still seeing Apple IIs used to control equipment in science labs (college and high school) well into the 90s, something I'd never seen an Atari (or any other home computer) doing. > Their achilles heel (besides Atari management) was not giving 80-column > text, and abandoning expansion bus options. The expansion bus was a big deal for the Apples (see controlling lab equipment) Bill ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 09:41:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.35.38.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1057484497 82.35.38.159 (Sun, 06 Jul 2003 10:41:37 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 10:41:37 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.multikabel.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144068 "Bill Bradley" wrote in message news:vgfbtamthks05d@corp.supernews.com... > Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > > In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > >>The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, > >>than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive in > >>various forms for almost a decade. There was nothing earth-shatteringly > >>original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with colour > > > > I'm not sure about that... the 8-bit Atari line did more with fewer > > chips than an Apple, and had better graphics too. > > I think what Pete meant (or should have said) was with less _custom_ > chips. Much of the Apple was off-the-shelf discrete chips not requiring > any special fab. All of the original was standard chips (I suppose the exception was the ROM, but does that count?) ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:39:34 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144025 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > >> The simple answer is it did more, with less chips, and more cheaply, >> than competing micros, and was an open enough architecture to survive in >> various forms for almost a decade. There was nothing earth-shatteringly >> original about the Apple ][ -- there had been micros with colour > > I'm not sure about that... the 8-bit Atari line did more with fewer > chips than an Apple, and had better graphics too. The Ataris used a lot of custom chips whereas the Apple was largely built from bog-standard TTL - and lacked the open expansion capabilities of the Apple. (Their BASIC was appallingly slow, too, and had the worst string-handling I've ever seen). Nice graphics and sound though - GTIA and Pokey wasn't it? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 01:27:38 +0100 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <3F03D79C.AD8E237E@ev1.net> Reply-To: Ben Hutchings NNTP-Posting-Host: pc1-cmbg1-4-cust26.cmbg.cable.ntl.com (62.253.133.26) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1057537806 2877904 62.253.133.26 (16 [70929]) X-Orig-Path: decadentplace.org.uk!nobody User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pc1-cmbg1-4-cust26.cmbg.cable.ntl.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144109 In article <3F03D79C.AD8E237E@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> The convenience of the Apple ][ as a lab computer has probably >> been exceeded today by firewire based devices, it's been a long >> time coming. > > And Apple came up with the Firewire interface...Firewire is > Apple's name for it. The PC crowd refers to it as IEEE-1394. Apple claimed the name Firewire as a trademark. Firewire was subsequently standardised as IEEE 1394. Since other implementors couldn't use the trademark they used the standard number instead. (Except for Sony, which uses the name i.Link.) However, I believe that Apple now permits use of the trademark for any implementation of the standard. ###### From: Paul Guertin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:38:24 -0400 Organization: Amalgamated Karma Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: pg@sff.net NNTP-Posting-Host: p-227.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:145089 "Russ Holsclaw" wrote: (and I reformatted) > I never owned an Apple ][, but I recall that the disk controller > (or at least the "OS", such as it was) didn't seem to bother with > error checking. If a program loaded wrong, it just didn't work. I wonder what OS that was. The most common Apple II OSes (DOS 3.x and ProDOS) have built-in checksums and give an error message when they don't match. > Also, when attempting to write to a write-protected disk, it would > happily go through the motions, and not inform anyone that nothing > was actually getting written. Again, DOS 3.x and ProDOS give a WRITE PROTECTED error in that case. Paul Guertin pg@sff.net ###### From: Ronald H. Nicholson, Jr. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:21:56 +0000 (UTC) Organization: a2i network Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: waltz.rahul.net X-Trace: blue.rahul.net 1058397716 27518 192.160.13.9 (16 Jul 2003 23:21:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: support@rahul.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:21:56 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!wasp.rahul.net!blue.rahul.net!rhn.a2i!rhn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146014 In article , Russ Holsclaw wrote: >Depends on how you define "elegant". I never owned an Apple ][, >but I recall that the disk controller (or at least the "OS", >such as it was) didn't seem to bother with error checking. >If a program loaded wrong, it just didn't work. There were no >error messages. This is false. The DOS 3.3 disk format was partially decoded in software, and the disk driver did indeed check a sector checksum and retried is there was an error. I should know because I have the original IWM spec somewhere in my file cabinet. >That's why software for >reading Mac >diskettes on PC's only supported HD disks, because the hardware >disk controller >couldn't read the older 720K disks, as Apple used non-standard >track formatting >and error checking. The original Mac diskette format was 8/6 GCR, not MFM, neither of which was standard at the time. Apple spun the the disks on the early single and double sided diskettes at different speeds depending on track number, thus providing a more constant bpi density than the IBM format. PC's dumber drives only spun at one speed and thus could not read the format. IMHO. YMMV. -- Ron Nicholson rhn AT nicholson DOT com http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/ #include // only my own opinions, etc. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:05:58 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net><1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1059433559 23246 80.177.7.220 (28 Jul 2003 23:05:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:05:59 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.4.91.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147211 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net... > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> OEM Tower PC with 2 screws to remove the side panel was really > RP> easy to work on > > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it three > screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools approach of the > Apple ][ was wonderful. I take it that you lacked the Monkey-User upgrade. Cheers, Rupert ###### Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:25:57 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Aug 2003 01:01:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1342.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1059699664 maya.euronet.nl 135 194.134.213.68:1342 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147480 On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:05:58 +0100 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message RP> news:20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net... RP> > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 RP> > "Rupert Pigott" RP> > wrote: RP> > RP> > RP> OEM Tower PC with 2 screws to remove the side panel was really RP> > RP> easy to work on RP> > RP> > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it three RP> > screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools approach of RP> > the Apple ][ was wonderful. RP> RP> I take it that you lacked the Monkey-User upgrade. Erm, is that like letting the librarian work on it ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "John Homes" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:10:03 +1200 Organization: EDS New Zealand Limited Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net><1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong><20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net><1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-134-251-233-156.dhcp.nz.eds.com X-Trace: hermes.nz.eds.com 1059707406 5193 134.251.233.156 (1 Aug 2003 03:10:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@hermes.nz.eds.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 03:10:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.eds.co.nz!news.nz.eds.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147443 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net... > On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:05:58 +0100 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > RP> news:20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net... > RP> > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 > RP> > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it three > RP> > screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools approach of > RP> > the Apple ][ was wonderful. > RP> > RP> I take it that you lacked the Monkey-User upgrade. > > Erm, is that like letting the librarian work on it ? > Erm, yourself. An orang-utan is an ape, not a monkey. It matters. John Homes ###### Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 07:57:21 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Aug 2003 17:00:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1488.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1059757205 willi.euronet.nl 45392 194.134.213.214:1371 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147563 On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:10:03 +1200 "John Homes" wrote: JH> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message JH> news:20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net... JH> > On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:05:58 +0100 JH> > "Rupert Pigott" JH> > wrote: JH> > JH> > RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message JH> > RP> news:20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net... JH> > RP> > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 JH> > RP> > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it JH> > RP> > three screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools JH> > RP> > approach of the Apple ][ was wonderful. JH> > RP> JH> > RP> I take it that you lacked the Monkey-User upgrade. JH> > JH> > Erm, is that like letting the librarian work on it ? JH> > JH> JH> Erm, yourself. An orang-utan is an ape, not a monkey. It matters. Hence the 'like' :) Anyway I still don't know what Rupert meant - which is the erm. Hey what's this banana doing on my bookshe -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:23:37 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1059751416.446457@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net><1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong><20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net><1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1059751416 6389 80.177.7.220 (1 Aug 2003 15:23:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:23:36 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147559 "John Homes" wrote in message news:bgclme$529$1@hermes.nz.eds.com... > > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > news:20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net... > > On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:05:58 +0100 > > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > > > RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > > RP> news:20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net... > > RP> > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 > > RP> > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it three > > RP> > screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools approach of > > RP> > the Apple ][ was wonderful. > > RP> > > RP> I take it that you lacked the Monkey-User upgrade. > > > > Erm, is that like letting the librarian work on it ? > > > > Erm, yourself. An orang-utan is an ape, not a monkey. It matters. Precisely. I imagine the Librarian would have tried sticking a couple of bananas into the holes and given up in disgust at the waste of bananas. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 02 Aug 03 11:36:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> <1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com> <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb98gLS3HpJBXrxhhOAtQc0JKq5aoAK2SNSoiMEJB+y28b8CK0c3tuU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 2003 12:38:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!peer02.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-152 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147597 In article <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong>, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >"Lars Duening" wrote in message >news:1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com... >> Rupert Pigott wrote: >> >> > IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious >> > and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers >> > that particularly irritating class of user >> >> Gee, and here I thought, 'miscievious, curious and always fiddling with >> something' are the character traits of a hacker (in the true sense). > >Indeed, they are the worst kind of users aren't they ? :) But aren't those the guys who fix what they break? IOW, they clean up after themselves. That isn't monkey business. BTW, you guys are hot shits. :-)))) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:26:10 +0100 Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3F2AB0C2.6E1A73F2@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1059805019 21459 158.152.132.30 (2 Aug 2003 06:16:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 06:16:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147605 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > Hey what's this banana doing on my bookshe Ooook! OOOOOK! OO-OOO-OOK!! -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, author, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover. 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:45:46 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 55 Message-ID: <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net><1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong><20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net><1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong><20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1059763548 14864 80.177.7.220 (1 Aug 2003 18:45:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:45:48 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147596 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net... > On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:10:03 +1200 > "John Homes" wrote: > > JH> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > JH> news:20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net... > JH> > On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:05:58 +0100 > JH> > "Rupert Pigott" > JH> > wrote: > JH> > > JH> > RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > JH> > RP> news:20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net... > JH> > RP> > On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:59:30 +0100 > JH> > RP> > Two screws for the side panel and one for the slot puts it > JH> > RP> > three screws behind the Apple ][ in convenience. The no-tools > JH> > RP> > approach of the Apple ][ was wonderful. > JH> > RP> > JH> > RP> I take it that you lacked the Monkey-User upgrade. > JH> > > JH> > Erm, is that like letting the librarian work on it ? > JH> > > JH> > JH> Erm, yourself. An orang-utan is an ape, not a monkey. It matters. > > Hence the 'like' :) > > Anyway I still don't know what Rupert meant - which is the erm. Monkey-Users are the types who put Mars bars & digestive biscuits into 3.5" floppy drive slots. They were called "Sports Science" by their faculty apparently. I thought they were part of some experiment to see if a significant number of primates with minimal keyboard skills and focus could *copy* a manuscript. I think that the experiment largely failed although the experimental subjects were awarded degrees. A screwless case = trouble in my experience. You need a minimal amount of deterrant to at least slow the monkeys down so that there's a better chance of stopping them before they get to the sensitive bits. IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers that particularly irritating class of user - you know the type who asks those questions along the lines of "What happens if I do this [completely stupid thing] ?". But only after they've actually tried it and left a smoking pile of mars-bar encrusted slag behind them. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:49:28 -0600 Lines: 8 Message-ID: <1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.252.196.227 X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059799769 25408938 66.252.196.227 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!66.252.196.227!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147610 Rupert Pigott wrote: > IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious > and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers > that particularly irritating class of user Gee, and here I thought, 'miscievious, curious and always fiddling with something' are the character traits of a hacker (in the true sense). ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 12:58:11 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> <1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1059825492 24834 80.177.7.220 (2 Aug 2003 11:58:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:58:12 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147599 "Lars Duening" wrote in message news:1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com... > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious > > and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers > > that particularly irritating class of user > > Gee, and here I thought, 'miscievious, curious and always fiddling with > something' are the character traits of a hacker (in the true sense). Indeed, they are the worst kind of users aren't they ? :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:30:02 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1059838202.321270@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> <1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com> <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1059838202 10538 80.177.7.220 (2 Aug 2003 15:30:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 15:30:02 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147620 wrote in message news:bggbcq$kon$10@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong>, > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >"Lars Duening" wrote in message > >news:1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com... > >> Rupert Pigott wrote: > >> > >> > IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious > >> > and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers > >> > that particularly irritating class of user > >> > >> Gee, and here I thought, 'miscievious, curious and always fiddling with > >> something' are the character traits of a hacker (in the true sense). > > > >Indeed, they are the worst kind of users aren't they ? :) > > But aren't those the guys who fix what they break? IOW, they > clean up after themselves. That isn't monkey business. Erm no, I'm talking about the class who leave a smoking pile of mars-bar encrusted slag. Cheers, Rupert ###### Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:43:13 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030804184313.0aa49835.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 04 Aug 2003 17:00:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3885.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1060016406 maya.euronet.nl 144 212.129.227.53:1476 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147816 On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:45:46 +0100 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message RP> news:20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net... RP> > Anyway I still don't know what Rupert meant - which is the erm. RP> RP> Monkey-Users are the types who put Mars bars & digestive RP> biscuits into 3.5" floppy drive slots. They were called Oh them! Placing the Apple ][ in chemistry and physics labs would have tended to keep them out of reach of this group of users. But I think in the days of the Apple ][ the monkey users were still destroying LoFi units with lights and graphic equalisers. RP> A screwless case = trouble in my experience. You need a RP> minimal amount of deterrant to at least slow the monkeys RP> down so that there's a better chance of stopping them RP> before they get to the sensitive bits. Hmm - screwless cases and high voltages are the best treatment for these people. Exposed fast spinning things are good too. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:46:51 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1060037212.42878@saucer.planet.gong> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net><1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong><20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net><1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong><20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net><20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net><1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> <20030804184313.0aa49835.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1060037219 3712 80.177.7.220 (4 Aug 2003 22:46:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:46:59 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147786 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030804184313.0aa49835.steveo@eircom.net... [SNIP] > Hmm - screwless cases and high voltages are the best treatment > for these people. Exposed fast spinning things are good too. Ahahahah ! We have found the solution... Valve powered machines... Cheers, Rupert ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:44:01 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1060623841 21044 146.186.61.46 (11 Aug 2003 17:44:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:44:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148332 In article <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong>, Rupert Pigott wrote: >IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious >and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers >that particularly irritating class of user - you know the >type who asks those questions along the lines of "What >happens if I do this [completely stupid thing] ?". But only >after they've actually tried it and left a smoking pile of >mars-bar encrusted slag behind them. Ahh, but with some Apple ]['s, you could smoke them from the keyboard. Of course, this took a reasonably sophisticated and curious user . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:44:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com> <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1060623882 21044 146.186.61.46 (11 Aug 2003 17:44:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:44:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148335 In article , wrote: >In article <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong>, > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >>> > IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious >>> > and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers >>> > that particularly irritating class of user >>> Gee, and here I thought, 'miscievious, curious and always fiddling with >>> something' are the character traits of a hacker (in the true sense). >>Indeed, they are the worst kind of users aren't they ? :) >But aren't those the guys who fix what they break? IOW, they >clean up after themselves. That isn't monkey business. That can be tough once you let the smoke out . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 12 Aug 03 11:22:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <1fz12hf.16k9a5x1fkdo2qN%lars@bearnip.com> <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZH+7s/6Isf3hcf3XdOpZDd/tAmPf0P+I5jVwbbgycC8creIPabhaCB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 2003 12:26:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-184 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148369 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article <1059825491.896371@saucer.planet.gong>, >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >>>> > IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious >>>> > and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers >>>> > that particularly irritating class of user > >>>> Gee, and here I thought, 'miscievious, curious and always fiddling with >>>> something' are the character traits of a hacker (in the true sense). > >>>Indeed, they are the worst kind of users aren't they ? :) > >>But aren't those the guys who fix what they break? IOW, they >>clean up after themselves. That isn't monkey business. > >That can be tough once you let the smoke out . . . My bit gods put new and better smoke back in. :-) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:23:32 -0600 Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1fzj6j7.1l3xdhz19z74zlN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: gw01-csv-co-19-247.rasserver.net (207.221.53.247) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1060633419 32827187 207.221.53.247 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!gw01-csv-co-19-247.rasserver.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148408 Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > In article <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong>, > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > >IIRC in Chinese culture Monkeys are mischevious, curious > >and are always fiddling with something. Pretty much covers > >that particularly irritating class of user - you know the > >type who asks those questions along the lines of "What > >happens if I do this [completely stupid thing] ?". But only > >after they've actually tried it and left a smoking pile of > >mars-bar encrusted slag behind them. > > Ahh, but with some Apple ]['s, you could smoke them from the keyboard. Really? I know that you could poke at least one Commodore model to death, but I never heard anything like that about the Apple ][. ###### From: "Dave Zook" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:24:04 -0500 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ac8284f8.ipt.aol.com X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1060664570 26219 172.130.132.248 (12 Aug 2003 05:02:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:02:50 +0000 (UTC) Keywords: Apple ][, diskette drive design, diskette reliability, Steve Wozniak X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148401 "Bill Bradley" wrote in message news:vg3fm26av95v60@corp.supernews.com... > > Using discrete logic for the floppy drive controller (at the time a PC > drive controller card went for at least half the price of a II), [...] To really > appreciate the design you'd need to look at the number of speciallized > chips (Video, Floppy Drive, DMA, etc.) on machines of the time to > appreciate the design elegance of the II. > > Bill > Regarding floppy disk: other machines with floppies (rather than cassette storage) required one or two specialized chips: a controller chip (required) and a data separator chip (required if you didn't want a lot of errors). Each of these chips cost $100-$350, with price decreasing as time went by. Wozniak did it with discrete chips (more or less what you could buy at Radio Shack), which were much cheaper. This put floppy storage within the budget of many people who had been stuck with cassette storage (s-l-o-w...). For good measure, Woziak designed circuitry to spin the drive at different speeds at different places on the disk. I no longer remember how many "bands" there were, but the result was more data storage on a diskette, with better reliability as well. Standard drives were constant-rotational-speed. Since the maximum bits per inch is constant across the surface of the diskette, the innermost track determined how much data could be placed on a track/diskette. All tracks out from there held the same amount of data at decreasing density, even though the longer tracks would have held more data if they were recorded at the maximum density. The longer outer track, being much longer, could safely hold much more data (at maximum density) than it did (at standard density). Wozniak's drive slowed the speed of the drive rotation for the outer tracks, giving him time to write more data at the same transfer rate (bits per second) without exceeding the max density of the diskette surface. Because he was getting more data per track on the middle and outer tracks, he could actually write data on the inner tracks at a somewhat lower density/rate than was "standard", providing better reliability while keeping the same or better total capacity. All-in-all it was a wonderful design, reflecting the "programming on the bare metal" ethic of the time. ###### Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:59:50 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030812065950.5c38082c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 2003 17:00:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0025.nas2-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1060707605 willi.euronet.nl 45374 62.234.212.25:2045 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148395 On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:44:01 +0000 (UTC) hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: DREH> DREH> Ahh, but with some Apple ]['s, you could smoke them from the DREH> keyboard. Of course, this took a reasonably sophisticated and DREH> curious user . . . I knew you could do this to a Beebon - but an Apple ][ ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1060669282 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:21:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:21:22 GMT Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:21:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148418 Dave Zook wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Standard drives were constant-rotational-speed. Since the maximum bits per > inch is constant across the surface of the diskette, the innermost track > determined how much data could be placed on a track/diskette. All tracks out > from there held the same amount of data at decreasing density, even though > the longer tracks would have held more data if they were recorded at the > maximum density. The longer outer track, being much longer, could safely > hold much more data (at maximum density) than it did (at standard density). > > Wozniak's drive slowed the speed of the drive rotation for the outer tracks, > giving him time to write more data at the same transfer rate (bits per > second) without exceeding the max density of the diskette surface. > > Because he was getting more data per track on the middle and outer tracks, > he could actually write data on the inner tracks at a somewhat lower > density/rate than was "standard", providing better reliability while keeping > the same or better total capacity. > I know that music cd's (and probably data cd's too) work this way. The music cd is constant linear velocity, and *not* constant angular velocity. When playing tracks on the outer edge of the cd, the cd will spin *slower* than when playing the inner tracks. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:22:25 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> <1fzj6j7.1l3xdhz19z74zlN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1060694545 22502 146.186.61.46 (12 Aug 2003 13:22:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:22:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148361 In article <1fzj6j7.1l3xdhz19z74zlN%lars@bearnip.com>, Lars Duening wrote: >Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >> Ahh, but with some Apple ]['s, you could smoke them from the keyboard. >Really? I know that you could poke at least one Commodore model to >death, but I never heard anything like that about the Apple ][. I talked to someone who found it the hard way--and then got a machine at apple tech support when he wasn't believed :) Running the diskette drive was a close call to start with. The drive was an SA-400 with it's controllere replaced to cut power consumption--the regular drive drew more than the supply was rated to put out. Many things in the ][ worked by toggling addresses (well, usuall blocks of 16 addresses, but anyway). He poked the addresses to turn on both drives . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:59:50 -0600 Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1fzkue6.1mwudo6uhlf1cN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <20030702065224.5ec2129d.steveo@eircom.net> <1057168770.350237@saucer.planet.gong> <20030703073405.41ce20da.steveo@eircom.net> <1059433558.879532@saucer.planet.gong> <20030731192557.48dd3f82.steveo@eircom.net> <20030801075721.5fdffb52.steveo@eircom.net> <1059763547.15963@saucer.planet.gong> <1fzj6j7.1l3xdhz19z74zlN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gw01-csv-co-33-46.rasserver.net (207.221.36.46) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1060711193 33015060 207.221.36.46 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!gw01-csv-co-33-46.rasserver.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148416 Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > In article <1fzj6j7.1l3xdhz19z74zlN%lars@bearnip.com>, > Lars Duening wrote: > >Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > > >> Ahh, but with some Apple ]['s, you could smoke them from the keyboard. > > >Really? I know that you could poke at least one Commodore model to > >death, but I never heard anything like that about the Apple ][. > > I talked to someone who found it the hard way--and then got a machine at > apple tech support when he wasn't believed :) > > Running the diskette drive was a close call to start with. The drive > was an SA-400 with it's controllere replaced to cut power > consumption--the regular drive drew more than the supply was rated to > put out. > > Many things in the ][ worked by toggling addresses (well, usuall blocks > of 16 addresses, but anyway). He poked the addresses to turn on both > drives . . . *laugh* They must have given the //e a stronger power supply, though, as I saw one using both floppies at once. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:43:37 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <1fzj6j7.1l3xdhz19z74zlN%lars@bearnip.com> <1fzkue6.1mwudo6uhlf1cN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1060724617 43656 146.186.61.46 (12 Aug 2003 21:43:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:43:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148457 In article <1fzkue6.1mwudo6uhlf1cN%lars@bearnip.com>, Lars Duening wrote: >Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >> >> Ahh, but with some Apple ]['s, you could smoke them from the keyboard. >> >Really? I know that you could poke at least one Commodore model to >> >death, but I never heard anything like that about the Apple ][. >> I talked to someone who found it the hard way--and then got a machine at >> apple tech support when he wasn't believed :) >> Running the diskette drive was a close call to start with. The drive >> was an SA-400 with it's controllere replaced to cut power >> consumption--the regular drive drew more than the supply was rated to >> put out. >> Many things in the ][ worked by toggling addresses (well, usuall blocks >> of 16 addresses, but anyway). He poked the addresses to turn on both >> drives . . . >*laugh* He found it funnier than apple did :) >They must have given the //e a stronger power supply, though, as I saw >one using both floppies at once. I saw a history a couple owf weeks ago that showed several switches in supplier of the psu on the ][. It's possible that only one or two had this problem. It seems to me that a switching psu should respond to excessive load by shutting down, not catching fire . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:08:00 +0100 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1060772882 17141 62.49.243.90 (13 Aug 2003 11:08:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:08:02 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148490 "Dave Zook" wrote in message news:bh9sdp$pjb$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > Wozniak's drive slowed the speed of the drive rotation for the outer tracks, > giving him time to write more data at the same transfer rate (bits per > second) without exceeding the max density of the diskette surface. Not on an Apple ][. This is true for the later 3.5" drives for the MAC & Apple ][ range with the IWM but not for the original. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:32:40 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1060903897 1101 194.222.24.177 (14 Aug 2003 23:31:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:31:37 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148606 In article <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >I know that music cd's (and probably data cd's too) work this >way. The music cd is constant linear velocity, and *not* constant >angular velocity. When playing tracks on the outer edge of the >cd, the cd will spin *slower* than when playing the inner tracks. Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use a spiral, just like vinyl ! ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 14 Aug 2003 21:32:33 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.123.64.113 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1060918351 25872 128.123.64.113 (15 Aug 2003 03:32:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2003 03:32:31 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!lenny.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148578 slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: > > Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored > information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use > a spiral, just like vinyl ! Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth would CDs do this? -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Thomas Womack Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 15 Aug 2003 05:42:34 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 17 Message-ID: <60h*UKXZp@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148605 In article <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: >> >> Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored >> information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use >> a spiral, just like vinyl ! > >Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth >would CDs do this? Same reason as with vinyl, I presume; it makes the tracking a bit easier. I think CDs date from before embedded servo data was a standard on hard disc drives, and I assume DVDs are spiral because CDs were. Tom ###### From: arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:51:48 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr180.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1060923124 16755 209.100.226.180 (15 Aug 2003 04:52:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 04:52:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148613 On 14 Aug 2003 21:32:33 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: >> >> Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored >> information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use >> a spiral, just like vinyl ! > >Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth >would CDs do this? Same reason, continuous play. -- Arargh308 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:44:55 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148573 slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote: >In article <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: > >>I know that music cd's (and probably data cd's too) work this >>way. The music cd is constant linear velocity, and *not* constant >>angular velocity. When playing tracks on the outer edge of the >>cd, the cd will spin *slower* than when playing the inner tracks. > >Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored >information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use >a spiral, just like vinyl ! There was an Apple protection scheme called "SpiraDisk"--I think I got the spelling right--where the data spiralled in. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 15 Aug 2003 05:02:35 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1060948955 5828 127.0.0.1 (15 Aug 2003 12:02:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2003 12:02:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148609 genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote in message news:<3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net>... > slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote: > > >In article <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net>, > >Charles Richmond wrote: > > > >>I know that music cd's (and probably data cd's too) work this > >>way. The music cd is constant linear velocity, and *not* constant > >>angular velocity. When playing tracks on the outer edge of the > >>cd, the cd will spin *slower* than when playing the inner tracks. > > > >Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored > >information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use > >a spiral, just like vinyl ! > > There was an Apple protection scheme called "SpiraDisk"--I think > I got the spelling right--where the data spiralled in. That was one of many schemes that went beyond simple "half-tracking" to confuse the pirates. It worked for a little while :-). I don't think Locksmith ever got spiradisk support (it did have half-track support) but I think some of the other nibble copiers (Copy II Plus?) did. The Disk ][ drive was controlled at such a low level that the CPU could command the head positioning stepper motor phases individually, making these (and other) schemes possible. Tim. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <60h*UKXZp@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> From: fin@visi.com (Craig A. Finseth) Date: 15 Aug 2003 14:57:53 GMT Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3f3cf4f1$0$173$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com> Organization: VISI.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2003 09:57:53 CDT NNTP-Posting-Host: 85f88387.newsreader.visi.com X-Trace: DXC=X9?nUce<@dEPUj_MY0X3RNOG;lf4n<5gJhD3OXm`l_bH3:o8Vf4C;?LDkf8YJfQiVO3aUG[Jc;hXN X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!petbe.visi.com!phobos.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news-1.mpls.visi.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148604 In article <60h*UKXZp@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Thomas Womack wrote: >In article <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, >Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >>slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: ... >>> Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored >>> information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use >>> a spiral, just like vinyl ! ... >>Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth >>would CDs do this? ... >Same reason as with vinyl, I presume; it makes the tracking a bit >easier. I think CDs date from before embedded servo data was a Nope. It is to increase the capacity. With a spiral, you can have a continuous change in the speed so as to have a constant linear velocity under the heads. Using this technique, you can roughly double the capacity of a disk over what you can get with constant rotation speed, all other factors being equal. The second generation CLV laser disks used this technique somewhat, as did some Apple floppies. Craig ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:11:04 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148620 shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: [snip] >The Disk ][ drive was controlled at such a low level that the CPU could >command the head positioning stepper motor phases individually, making >these (and other) schemes possible. I read once (but there were no details) that the drive motor could even be made to spin backwards. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:22:57 -0600 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1fzqk2c.z4pbsm6a3pc8N%lars@bearnip.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gw01-csv-co-12-87.rasserver.net (207.221.41.87) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1060996987 386941 207.221.41.87 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!gw01-csv-co-12-87.rasserver.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148641 Tim Shoppa wrote: > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > > There was an Apple protection scheme called "SpiraDisk"--I think > > I got the spelling right--where the data spiralled in. > > That was one of many schemes that went beyond simple "half-tracking" to > confuse the pirates. It worked for a little while :-). I don't think > Locksmith ever got spiradisk support (it did have half-track support) > but I think some of the other nibble copiers (Copy II Plus?) did. > > The Disk ][ drive was controlled at such a low level that the CPU could > command the head positioning stepper motor phases individually, making > these (and other) schemes possible. I remember - fun times! Quarter-tracks were particularily entertaining. IIRC in the end the copiers lost out to the protection producers because the Disk ][ drive didn't have the tight tolerances required to reproduce the advanced copying schemes. ###### Message-ID: <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1060999899 12.241.15.59 (Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:11:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:11:39 GMT Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:11:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148648 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: > > > > Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored > > information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use > > a spiral, just like vinyl ! > > Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth > would CDs do this? > I can *not* speak to that...but I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, just like a vynal LP. IIRC, the old "laser disk" format used tracks of concentric circles, like computer hard disks or floppies. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:51:16 -0600 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gw01-csv-co-19-122.rasserver.net (207.221.53.122) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061031080 603162 207.221.53.122 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!gw01-csv-co-19-122.rasserver.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148643 Gene Wirchenko wrote: > shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > [snip] > > >The Disk ][ drive was controlled at such a low level that the CPU could > >command the head positioning stepper motor phases individually, making > >these (and other) schemes possible. > > I read once (but there were no details) that the drive motor > could even be made to spin backwards. That'd be something to behold, as the drive motor was controlled by a single bit. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 16 Aug 03 14:39:14 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <817.358T725T8793734@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3E8274.C15426DD@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-241.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148698 In article <3F3E8274.C15426DD@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com (CBFalconer) writes: > Jim Large wrote: > >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >>> I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, >>> just like a vynal LP. >> >> Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record >> player moves from the outside edge to the center as the >> record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the >> center out to the edge. > > You can do that on your record player. Just install an idler gear > in the rim-drive path. :-) I tried that, but all I got were satanic messages. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 16 Aug 03 17:48:51 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-187.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148707 In article <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >There is also *nothing* that would have prevented vynal LP's >from being recorded with constant *linear* velocity, instead >of constant *angular* velocity. Such a system might even be >made compatible with the vynal LP's used now. The turntable >would have to somehow sense which kind of LP was being played, >and make the proper adjustments. Let me reword your first sentence a little. "There is also *nothing* that _prevents_ vinyl LPs from being recorded with constant *linear* velocity, instead of constant *angular* velocity." The key word is "prevents". As for what _prevented_ it from being done at the time, the answer is complexity. It has always been relatively easy to build a turntable that operates at constant angular velocity, even back in the days of the Victrola. When you look at one of today's turntables, with its sophisticated but inexpensive electronics driving readily-available servo motors, it's easy to forget that what is cheap nowadays would have been prohibitively expensive - if not impossible - even 30 years ago, let alone 100. Could you imagine the kind of linkages you'd need to make a mechanical turntable run at constant linear velocity? And the reliability problems you'd have? "Martha, the Victrola is acting up again - Caruso is sounding like a chipmunk!" Hmmm... maybe that's where David Seville got the idea... -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:10:06 +0100 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnglwood.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1061050754 10906 158.152.132.30 (16 Aug 2003 16:19:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:19:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.14-5.0 i586) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!falstaff.tanglewood!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148713 Lars Duening wrote: > That'd be something to behold, as the drive motor was controlled by a > single bit. OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it cuckoo the hours. -- I am Robert Billing, Christian, author, inventor, traveller, cook and animal lover. 0:46W 51:22N. http://www.tnglwood.demon.co.uk/ "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book as a woman is with child." CS Lewis - Till we have faces, Ch 21. ###### From: Jim Large User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:07:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.151.138.40 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1061057262 141.151.138.40 (Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:07:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:07:42 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148718 Charles Richmond wrote: > I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, > just like a vynal LP. Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record player moves from the outside edge to the center as the record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the center out to the edge. -- JmL ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061061476 12.240.77.188 (Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:17:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:17:56 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:17:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148662 Approximately 8/16/03 11:07, Jim Large uttered for posterity: > Charles Richmond wrote: > >> I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, > > just like a vynal LP. > > Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record > player moves from the outside edge to the center as the > record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the > center out to the edge. There is nothing to prevent the pickup on an LP from tracking from inside to outside, or even having counter grooves, or multiple grooves. Mad magazine is the only example I can think of that ever had a inner--outer groove. Classical recording engineers would likely have preferred the inner--outer groove to eliminate the inner groove distortion issue on classical music which tends to start soft but with louder climax. With some exceptions such as Telarc Fanfare for the Common Man of course. I can't even see any insoluble problems with changers picking up at the inner groove, the runout groove normally used to trip the changer mechanism would serve as well for a run in groove. It might be a bit trickier to determine the end of the record for the changer tho.... simply running off the record wouldn't work as there were different sizes, and the stylus wouldn't survive too many turntable mat encounters...unless the turntable itself had trip grooves... ###### Message-ID: <3F3E8274.C15426DD@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:25:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.172.227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1061061924 12.90.172.227 (Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:25:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:25:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148654 Jim Large wrote: > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, > > just like a vynal LP. > > Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record > player moves from the outside edge to the center as the > record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the > center out to the edge. You can do that on your record player. Just install an idler gear in the rim-drive path. :-) -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 16 Aug 2003 13:29:03 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.123.64.113 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1061062141 22246 128.123.64.113 (16 Aug 2003 19:29:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Aug 2003 19:29:01 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!lenny.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148668 arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com writes: > On 14 Aug 2003 21:32:33 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer > wrote: > > >slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: > >> > >> Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored > >> information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use > >> a spiral, just like vinyl ! > > > >Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth > >would CDs do this? > > Same reason, continuous play. But it's a digital medium. Haven't CD players always had an input buffer, so they wouldn't have to worry about wow and flutter? Given that, playing a track, moving the head, playing a track (etc) seems a lot more straightforward than trying to make continual corrections to keep the laser pointing at the data. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:06:01 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: tin/1.5.18-20030602 ("Darts") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.222.21.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148715 "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: > OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across > a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time > clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather > unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it > cuckoo the hours. Sounds like Apple ][ sound. ;) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:00:38 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr245.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1061067661 8093 209.100.226.245 (16 Aug 2003 21:01:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:01:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148739 On 16 Aug 2003 13:29:03 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com writes: >> Same reason, continuous play. > >But it's a digital medium. Haven't CD players always had an input >buffer, so they wouldn't have to worry about wow and flutter? Given >that, playing a track, moving the head, playing a track (etc) seems a >lot more straightforward than trying to make continual corrections to >keep the laser pointing at the data. It's just a guess: The original CD players's seek times were huge. Following a track would be constant small movements, with little chance of getting lost, however track-to-track movements would take a lot more time. And you would need much more memory to buffer while taking that time. The best place for an answer to this question, would be to dig up the original design specs and see if they have anything to say about it. -- Arargh308 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:41:46 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f3e9970.13853749@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148664 Lon Stowell wrote: >Approximately 8/16/03 11:07, Jim Large uttered for posterity: > >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >>> I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, >> > just like a vynal LP. >> >> Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record >> player moves from the outside edge to the center as the >> record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the >> center out to the edge. > > There is nothing to prevent the pickup on an LP from tracking > from inside to outside, or even having counter grooves, or > multiple grooves. Mad magazine is the only example I can > think of that ever had a inner--outer groove. One of the Monty Python records had two side twos. [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Message-ID: <3F3EE5D5.D86A94A9@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061079700 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:21:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:21:40 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:21:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148748 Jim Large wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, > > just like a vynal LP. > > Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record > player moves from the outside edge to the center as the > record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the > center out to the edge. > Hey, it's a spiral, just like a vynal LP. Sure, the CD player reads the data from the inside (next to the hole) to the outside. For music, the first track is next to the hole, the last track is toward the outside edge. If you did a little re-arranging with a phonograph, you could play record *backward* starting from the inside. The disk would need to spin counter-clockwise, and the tone arm would need to be re-positioned so that it would "drag" across the record moving in that direction. (This exercise is left for the serious student.) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1061080034 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:27:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:27:14 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:27:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148737 Lon Stowell wrote: > > Approximately 8/16/03 11:07, Jim Large uttered for posterity: > > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > >> I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, > > > just like a vynal LP. > > > > Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record > > player moves from the outside edge to the center as the > > record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the > > center out to the edge. > > There is nothing to prevent the pickup on an LP from tracking > from inside to outside, or even having counter grooves, or > multiple grooves. Mad magazine is the only example I can > think of that ever had a inner--outer groove. > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > There is also *nothing* that would have prevented vynal LP's from being recorded with constant *linear* velocity, instead of constant *angular* velocity. Such a system might even be made compatible with the vynal LP's used now. The turntable would have to somehow sense which kind of LP was being played, and make the proper adjustments. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F3EE7C6.54A4A71E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1061080193 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:29:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:29:53 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:29:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148745 Lars Duening wrote: > > Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > > shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > >The Disk ][ drive was controlled at such a low level that the CPU could > > >command the head positioning stepper motor phases individually, making > > >these (and other) schemes possible. > > > > I read once (but there were no details) that the drive motor > > could even be made to spin backwards. > > That'd be something to behold, as the drive motor was controlled by a > single bit. > So when the bit is "0", the drive is "off", when the bit is "1", the drive spins regularly, and when the bit is "-1", the drive spins in reverse. ;-) (Note to the humor impaired bit jockeys...this is a *joke*.) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061080282 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:31:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:31:22 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:31:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148747 Pete Fenelon wrote: > > "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: > > OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across > > a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time > > clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather > > unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it > > cuckoo the hours. > > Sounds like Apple ][ sound. ;) > IIRC, the original IBM PC had this type of speaker arrangement also. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Spies In the Wire Lines: 4 Message-ID: References: <3F3EE5D5.D86A94A9@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 16 Aug 2003 18:08:47 -0700, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!unknown!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148657 > Hey, it's a spiral, just like a vynal ^ vinyl ###### From: Bill Bradley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:34:03 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.uncensored-news.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148716 Lon Stowell wrote: > There is nothing to prevent the pickup on an LP from tracking > from inside to outside, or even having counter grooves, or > multiple grooves. Mad magazine is the only example I can > think of that ever had a inner--outer groove. Monty Python's "Free Album with Matching Tie and Handkerchief" had multiple grooves on one side [both sides were marked "Side B"] so it was random which one the needle ended up in. If you got lucky you could completely confuse someone by playing the same side twice and getting different tracks. Bill ###### From: Bill Bradley Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:41:38 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148719 arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com wrote: > It's just a guess: > > The original CD players's seek times were huge. Following a track > would be constant small movements, with little chance of getting lost, > however track-to-track movements would take a lot more time. And you > would need much more memory to buffer while taking that time. I'm not sure when the first CD player came out, but I bought my first one in '87 when they first dropped below $200. If you look at RAM prices for that era you understand why even a small buffer would have greatly increased the price: at ~$100/Meg, 2*16bits*44,100samples/sec, even 0.1 second would add $5-10 per player in RAM alone. Bill ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:55:12 -0600 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3EE7C6.54A4A71E@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gw01-csv-co-28-206.rasserver.net (207.221.57.206) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061088919 1196347 207.221.57.206 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!gw01-csv-co-28-206.rasserver.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148730 Charles Richmond wrote: > Lars Duening wrote: > > > > Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > > > > shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > > I read once (but there were no details) that the drive motor > > > could even be made to spin backwards. > > > > That'd be something to behold, as the drive motor was controlled by a > > single bit. > > > So when the bit is "0", the drive is "off", when the bit is "1", > the drive spins regularly, and when the bit is "-1", the drive > spins in reverse. ;-) > > (Note to the humor impaired bit jockeys...this is a *joke*.) I wouldn't put it past Woz to eek out trinary logic out of normal TTL :-) ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 17 Aug 2003 05:01:59 GMT Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-189-29.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1061096519 news.dial.pipex.com 958 62.241.189.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148667 On 16 Aug 2003 13:29:03 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com writes: > >> On 14 Aug 2003 21:32:33 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer >> wrote: >> >> >slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: >> >> >> >> Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored >> >> information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use >> >> a spiral, just like vinyl ! >> > >> >Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth >> >would CDs do this? >> >> Same reason, continuous play. > >But it's a digital medium. Haven't CD players always had an input >buffer, so they wouldn't have to worry about wow and flutter? Given >that, playing a track, moving the head, playing a track (etc) seems a >lot more straightforward than trying to make continual corrections to >keep the laser pointing at the data. I don't think so, you need a servo mechanism to keep the track, which is just series of pits, centred over the laser. Once you have that you can track a continous spiral groove without any extra hardware or software. Stepping the laser would require more work. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 17 Aug 2003 00:04:56 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <1br83kizuf.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.123.64.113 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1061100295 11243 128.123.64.113 (17 Aug 2003 06:04:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2003 06:04:55 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!lenny.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148666 stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: > > I don't think so, you need a servo mechanism to keep the track, which > is just series of pits, centred over the laser. Once you have that you > can track a continous spiral groove without any extra hardware or software. > Stepping the laser would require more work. Good point. I guess I'm too used to thinking in increments... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:02:36 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 55 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.144.24 X-Trace: 1061114402 freenews.iinet.net.au 23586 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.astraweb.com!news-small.astraweb.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!feed-maxim.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!freenews.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148728 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >In article <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net >(Charles Richmond) writes: >>There is also *nothing* that would have prevented vynal LP's >>from being recorded with constant *linear* velocity, instead >>of constant *angular* velocity. Such a system might even be >>made compatible with the vynal LP's used now. The turntable >>would have to somehow sense which kind of LP was being played, >>and make the proper adjustments. >Let me reword your first sentence a little. "There is also >*nothing* that _prevents_ vinyl LPs from being recorded with >constant *linear* velocity, instead of constant *angular* >velocity." >The key word is "prevents". As for what _prevented_ it from being >done at the time, the answer is complexity. It has always been >relatively easy to build a turntable that operates at constant >angular velocity, even back in the days of the Victrola. When >you look at one of today's turntables, with its sophisticated but >inexpensive electronics driving readily-available servo motors, >it's easy to forget that what is cheap nowadays would have been >prohibitively expensive - if not impossible - even 30 years ago, >let alone 100. >Could you imagine the kind of linkages you'd need to make a >mechanical turntable run at constant linear velocity? And Linkage? You bastard, you've just put me into invention-mode again! Piece of wire that's pulled by the pickup arm and adjusts a servo-mechanism to alter the thin drive wheel's axial position on the under-side of the turntable to correspond to that of the stylus. Electro-mechanical servos have been around for a century. Next! :-) The servo is required because most people don't like to have their vinyl/shelac "erased" as they play it. An "innovation" that I've seen advertised recently is a small car that drives around on a vinyl record, playing the music by following the groove. They've probably been around for half a century in one form or another. >the reliability problems you'd have? "Martha, the Victrola >is acting up again - Caruso is sounding like a chipmunk!" >Hmmm... maybe that's where David Seville got the idea... -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 17 Aug 2003 09:15:03 GMT Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-191-125.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1061111703 news.dial.pipex.com 15032 62.241.191.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148670 On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:31:22 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >Pete Fenelon wrote: >> >> "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: >> > OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across >> > a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time >> > clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather >> > unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it >> > cuckoo the hours. >> >> Sounds like Apple ][ sound. ;) >> >IIRC, the original IBM PC had this type of speaker arrangement also. I used to have a program (not one of mine!) that would play music - I mean proper recordings, not digital bleeps - on the internal speaker of my old AT by using pulse width modulation toggling of the speaker. I used to play Bach preludes in 2-part harmony on my TRS-80 by the same technique. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 17 Aug 2003 04:21:14 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1061119274 15342 127.0.0.1 (17 Aug 2003 11:21:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2003 11:21:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148734 "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote in message news:<3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>... > Lars Duening wrote: > > > That'd be something to behold, as the drive motor was controlled by a > > single bit. > > OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across > a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time > clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather > unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it > cuckoo the hours. If you pulsed the spindle motor-control bit on a Disk II at just the right frequency you would hit a resonance with the switching power supply and destroy it. Tim. ###### Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:00:05 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030817180005.5f025064.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2003 16:21:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0458.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061137296 willi.euronet.nl 45370 62.234.209.204:2387 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148777 On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:56:16 -0400 Roland Hutchinson wrote: RH> Bernd Felsche wrote: RH> RH> > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: RH> > RH> >>In article <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net RH> >>(Charles Richmond) writes: RH> [snip] RH> >>Could you imagine the kind of linkages you'd need to make a RH> >>mechanical turntable run at constant linear velocity? And RH> > RH> > Linkage? You bastard, you've just put me into invention-mode again! RH> > Piece of wire that's pulled by the pickup arm and adjusts a RH> > servo-mechanism to alter the thin drive wheel's axial position on RH> > the under-side of the turntable to correspond to that of the stylus. RH> RH> I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with rumble! RH> Remember rumble? It wouldn't be rumble so much as scrape :) A better design might be a variomatic belt drive as in the 1970s DAF. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:02:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1061136152 12.90.169.12 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:02:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:02:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148786 Roland Hutchinson wrote: > Bernd Felsche wrote: > > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > >>(Charles Richmond) writes: > > [snip] > > >> Could you imagine the kind of linkages you'd need to make a > >> mechanical turntable run at constant linear velocity? And > > > > Linkage? You bastard, you've just put me into invention-mode again! > > Piece of wire that's pulled by the pickup arm and adjusts a > > servo-mechanism to alter the thin drive wheel's axial position on > > the under-side of the turntable to correspond to that of the stylus. > > I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with rumble! > Remember rumble? WOW. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Jim Large User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:34:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.162.170.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1061138077 68.162.170.206 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:34:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:34:37 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148781 Lon Stowell wrote: > Classical recording engineers would likely have preferred the > inner--outer groove to eliminate the inner groove distortion > issue on classical music which tends to start soft but with > louder climax. With some exceptions such as Telarc Fanfare for > the Common Man of course. Oh my God! Telarc! I used to know a guy -- a golden eared audiophile -- who owned a turntable that could actually play the Telarc recording of the 1812 overture. The disk... Aaugh! The grooves were something like a millimeter apart in the neighborhood of the cannon shots. You could see the waveform with your naked eye. I suppose the tympanni hits at the beginning of "Fanfare" were must've been something like. -- JmL ###### Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:41:47 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030817184147.4a907050.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2003 18:04:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0599.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061143453 maya.euronet.nl 149 62.234.218.91:2396 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148778 On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:02:36 +0800 Bernd Felsche wrote: BF> BF> Linkage? You bastard, you've just put me into invention-mode again! BF> Piece of wire that's pulled by the pickup arm and adjusts a Hmm - with care you could probably use this for bias too. BF> servo-mechanism to alter the thin drive wheel's axial position on That mechanism will just make noise though. BF> An "innovation" that I've seen advertised recently is a small car BF> that drives around on a vinyl record, playing the music by following BF> the groove. They've probably been around for half a century in one BF> form or another. I've been seeing them around for at least half that long. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Jim Large User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:46:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.162.170.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1061138803 68.162.170.206 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:46:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:46:43 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148782 CBFalconer wrote: > Roland Hutchinson wrote: >>I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with >>rumble. Remember rumble? > > WOW. All of this nostalgia is making my heart flutter. -- JmL ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mensanator@aol.com (Mensanator) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 17 Aug 2003 17:20:30 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030817132030.21828.00000604@mb-m07.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148774 >Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? >From: Bill Bradley senator@NOSPAMstargate.net >Date: 8/16/2003 8:34 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: > >Lon Stowell wrote: >> There is nothing to prevent the pickup on an LP from tracking >> from inside to outside, or even having counter grooves, or >> multiple grooves. Mad magazine is the only example I can >> think of that ever had a inner--outer groove. > > Monty Python's "Free Album with Matching Tie and Handkerchief" had >multiple grooves on one side [both sides were marked "Side B"] so it was >random which one the needle ended up in. If you got lucky you could >completely confuse someone by playing the same side twice and getting >different tracks. Lost when released on CD. And not only that, but the bastards didn't properly reproduce the cover art. > > Bill -- Mensanator 2 of Clubs http://members.aol.com/mensanator666/2ofclubs/2ofclubs.htm ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061146566 12.240.77.188 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:56:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:56:06 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:56:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148764 Approximately 8/16/03 18:41, Bill Bradley uttered for posterity: > arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com wrote: >> It's just a guess: >> >> The original CD players's seek times were huge. Following a track >> would be constant small movements, with little chance of getting lost, >> however track-to-track movements would take a lot more time. And you >> would need much more memory to buffer while taking that time. > > I'm not sure when the first CD player came out, but I bought my first > one in '87 when they first dropped below $200. If you look at RAM > prices for that era you understand why even a small buffer would have > greatly increased the price: at ~$100/Meg, 2*16bits*44,100samples/sec, > even 0.1 second would add $5-10 per player in RAM alone. Lasnerian 1983/1984. Trying to recall if any of the early units actually had true 16 bit D/A convertors or just rewired 12 and 14 bit ones. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061147530 12.240.77.188 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:12:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:12:10 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:12:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148766 Approximately 8/17/03 09:34, Jim Large uttered for posterity: > Oh my God! Telarc! I used to know a guy -- a golden eared > audiophile -- who owned a turntable that could actually play the > Telarc recording of the 1812 overture. The disk... Aaugh! The > grooves were something like a millimeter apart in the neighborhood > of the cannon shots. You could see the waveform with your naked > eye. > > I suppose the tympanni hits at the beginning of "Fanfare" were > must've been something like. "Fanfare" starts with a set of Tam Tam [Tympani on steroids] beats, but is not as damaging as 1812 cannon. Telarc had one semi-demo CD album that had the disclaimer on it more or less: "OK, you Telarc junkies, we have always warned you about being able to damage your equipment...well, watch out because *this* CD contains some of the highest dynamic range material ever produced by Telarc". [Time Warp] However for sheer woofer/subwoofer destruction, have never seen anything worse than the Big Note/747 Takeoff combo from the nutcases ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H folks that produced "Digital Domain". And Telarc even managed to come up with a new version of 1812, with a choir this time, even has musical redeeming value in addition to popping speaker cones. Demo was available at www.telarc.com. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1061147755 12.240.77.188 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:15:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:15:55 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:15:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148767 Approximately 8/16/03 17:31, Charles Richmond uttered for posterity: > Pete Fenelon wrote: >> >> "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: >> > OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across >> > a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time >> > clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather >> > unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it >> > cuckoo the hours. >> >> Sounds like Apple ][ sound. ;) >> > IIRC, the original IBM PC had this type of speaker arrangement also. Don't remember if in original or not, but roughly that era, all sorts of small fairly high efficiency speakerlets were available for printed circuit addition. Fairly common to use one for keyclick by gating a few cycles of a handy clock. Specs on those little speakers were, ummm, a bit overdone. You'd swear folks like Klipsch were making the things for Star Micronics. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061147891 12.240.77.188 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:18:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:18:11 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:18:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148765 Approximately 8/17/03 02:15, Stan Barr uttered for posterity: > On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:31:22 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >>Pete Fenelon wrote: >>> >>> "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: >>> > OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across >>> > a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time >>> > clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather >>> > unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it >>> > cuckoo the hours. >>> >>> Sounds like Apple ][ sound. ;) >>> >>IIRC, the original IBM PC had this type of speaker arrangement also. > > I used to have a program (not one of mine!) that would play music - I mean > proper recordings, not digital bleeps - on the internal speaker of my old > AT by using pulse width modulation toggling of the speaker. > > I used to play Bach preludes in 2-part harmony on my TRS-80 by the same > technique. > Was this "Pianoman" or similar software? One of them managed to sound more or less polyphonic on the PC. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:27:53 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148768 Jim Large wrote: >CBFalconer wrote: > > Roland Hutchinson wrote: > >>I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with > >>rumble. Remember rumble? > > > > WOW. > >All of this nostalgia is making my heart flutter. Maybe, we could just scratch this whole subthread? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:03:41 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2003 23:15:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0550.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061162105 willi.euronet.nl 45384 62.234.210.42:2416 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.multikabel.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148799 On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:27:53 GMT genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: GW> Jim Large wrote: GW> GW> >CBFalconer wrote: GW> > > Roland Hutchinson wrote: GW> > >>I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with GW> > >>rumble. Remember rumble? GW> > > GW> > > WOW. GW> > GW> >All of this nostalgia is making my heart flutter. GW> GW> Maybe, we could just scratch this whole subthread? I'll deck anyone that does that to my records. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:11:05 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030817231105.138a370a.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2003 23:15:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0550.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061162106 willi.euronet.nl 45384 62.234.210.42:2416 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148798 On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:18:11 GMT Lon Stowell wrote: LS> > I used to have a program (not one of mine!) that would play music - LS> > I mean proper recordings, not digital bleeps - on the internal LS> > speaker of my old AT by using pulse width modulation toggling of the LS> > speaker. I recall a golf game with sound effects and voice over by the same mechanism marketed as Echelon Realsound. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:11:18 +0800 Message-ID: <6pfqhb.058.ln@innovative.iinet.net.au> Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.144.24 X-Trace: 1061211602 freenews.iinet.net.au 23611 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!freenews.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148827 Roland Hutchinson writes: >Bernd Felsche wrote: >> "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >> >>>In article <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net >>>(Charles Richmond) writes: >[snip] >>>Could you imagine the kind of linkages you'd need to make a >>>mechanical turntable run at constant linear velocity? And >> >> Linkage? You bastard, you've just put me into invention-mode again! >> Piece of wire that's pulled by the pickup arm and adjusts a >> servo-mechanism to alter the thin drive wheel's axial position on >> the under-side of the turntable to correspond to that of the stylus. >I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with rumble! >Remember rumble? It wasn't in the spec. The spec said constant linear velocity. :-) -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: Gary Tait Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:31:00 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.46.149.161 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1061220819 216.46.149.161 (Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:33:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:33:39 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148814 On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:02:36 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >An "innovation" that I've seen advertised recently is a small car >that drives around on a vinyl record, playing the music by following >the groove. They've probably been around for half a century in one >form or another. Those have been around for years. Annother one is a book that has vinyl disks embedded into the page, with a device that sits over the disc. spinning a stylus/cartridge over the disk. I forget if it had an electronic amplifier, or if the stylus mechanically connectied to a diaphram. Then there is the pull string dolls, which had multi-groove records. ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1061233739 3482 166.84.199.79 (18 Aug 2003 19:08:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:08:59 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca1-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148841 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:27:53 GMT > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > > GW> Jim Large wrote: > GW> > GW> >CBFalconer wrote: > GW> > > Roland Hutchinson wrote: > GW> > >>I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with > GW> > >>rumble. Remember rumble? > GW> > > > GW> > > WOW. > GW> > > GW> >All of this nostalgia is making my heart flutter. > GW> > GW> Maybe, we could just scratch this whole subthread? > > I'll deck anyone that does that to my records. This thread is warped. -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:03 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <1fzw6da.h04ngqpwyd2N%proto@panix.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE5D5.D86A94A9@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1061233742 3482 166.84.199.79 (18 Aug 2003 19:09:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:09:02 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148842 Charles Richmond wrote: > Jim Large wrote: > > > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > > > I can assure you that CD's *do* record in a spiral, > > > just like a vynal LP. > > > > Not *JUST* like an LP. The pickup head on a record > > player moves from the outside edge to the center as the > > record plays. The head on a CD player moves from the > > center out to the edge. > > > Hey, it's a spiral, just like a vynal LP. Sure, the CD player > reads the data from the inside (next to the hole) to the > outside. For music, the first track is next to the hole, the > last track is toward the outside edge. > > If you did a little re-arranging with a phonograph, you > could play record *backward* starting from the inside. > The disk would need to spin counter-clockwise, and the > tone arm would need to be re-positioned so that it would > "drag" across the record moving in that direction. > > (This exercise is left for the serious student.) > > -- > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ Yes, but who burried Paul? -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:04 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1fzw6hh.1oaeyye1u3cj14N%proto@panix.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3EE7C6.54A4A71E@ev1.net> <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1061233744 3482 166.84.199.79 (18 Aug 2003 19:09:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:09:04 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148845 Lars Duening wrote: > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > Lars Duening wrote: > > > > > > Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > > > > > > shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > > > > I read once (but there were no details) that the drive motor > > > > could even be made to spin backwards. > > > > > > That'd be something to behold, as the drive motor was controlled by a > > > single bit. > > > > > So when the bit is "0", the drive is "off", when the bit is "1", > > the drive spins regularly, and when the bit is "-1", the drive > > spins in reverse. ;-) > > > > (Note to the humor impaired bit jockeys...this is a *joke*.) > > I wouldn't put it past Woz to eek out trinary logic out of normal TTL > :-) Woz, Woz, he's our man, if he cann't do it, no one can -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:40:02 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f4121f0.7921445@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148836 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:27:53 GMT >genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >GW> Jim Large wrote: >GW> >GW> >CBFalconer wrote: >GW> > > Roland Hutchinson wrote: >GW> > >>I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with >GW> > >>rumble. Remember rumble? >GW> > > >GW> > > WOW. >GW> > >GW> >All of this nostalgia is making my heart flutter. >GW> >GW> Maybe, we could just scratch this whole subthread? > > I'll deck anyone that does that to my records. You no decca me, or I call the cops. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:16:33 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1061244924 26371 194.222.24.177 (18 Aug 2003 22:15:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:15:24 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148843 In article <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >> >slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: >> >> >> >> CDs and DVDs actually use >> >> a spiral, just like vinyl ! > >But it's a digital medium. Haven't CD players always had an input >buffer, so they wouldn't have to worry about wow and flutter? Yes. At least, the Philips CD100 (the first commercially- available CD player) did. However, the buffer was very short: something on the close order of one second. >Given >that, playing a track, moving the head, playing a track (etc) seems a >lot more straightforward than trying to make continual corrections to >keep the laser pointing at the data. The plastic medium used for CDs, and the manufacturing tolerances, means that the tracks continually wonder in and out anyway. So you need constant retargeting of the head to find the the middle of the line of pits anyway. So you might as well use a spiral. There are lots of aspects of CD-specification which are surprisingly low-tech, aimed at making the chipset as simple as possible. For instance, in the Table of Contents block as the beginning of a CD, the track numbers are stored in Binary Coded Decimal. This was done so as to make displaying the track currently playing not require a Binary --> BCD converter. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1061252825 12.237.120.43 (Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:27:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:27:05 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:27:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-xfer.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148858 Walter Bushell wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > >>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:27:53 GMT >>genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >> >>GW> Jim Large wrote: >>GW> >>GW> >CBFalconer wrote: >>GW> > > Roland Hutchinson wrote: >>GW> > >>I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with >>GW> > >>rumble. Remember rumble? >>GW> > > >>GW> > > WOW. >>GW> > >>GW> >All of this nostalgia is making my heart flutter. >>GW> >>GW> Maybe, we could just scratch this whole subthread? >> >> I'll deck anyone that does that to my records. > > > This thread is warped. August heat will do that. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 54 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1061262189 12.240.77.188 (Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:03:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:03:09 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:03:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148859 Approximately 8/18/03 15:16, Simon Slavin uttered for posterity: > In article <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > >>> >slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: >>> >> >>> >> CDs and DVDs actually use >>> >> a spiral, just like vinyl ! >> >>But it's a digital medium. Haven't CD players always had an input >>buffer, so they wouldn't have to worry about wow and flutter? > > Yes. At least, the Philips CD100 (the first commercially- > available CD player) did. However, the buffer was very > short: something on the close order of one second. And really used for error recovery and/or concealment, as the concepts of wow and flutter don't apply to digital playback in the same manner as they do in LP playback. The buffer was nice for being able to hand the D/A's the data at precisely clocked intervals. > >>Given >>that, playing a track, moving the head, playing a track (etc) seems a >>lot more straightforward than trying to make continual corrections to >>keep the laser pointing at the data. > > The plastic medium used for CDs, and the manufacturing > tolerances, means that the tracks continually wonder in and > out anyway. So you need constant retargeting of the head > to find the the middle of the line of pits anyway. So you > might as well use a spiral. The electronics to do track seeking and data centering are a bit more complex than a simple comparator that can be used for a spiral track. Some early players had three lasers, later it became more common to use a single laser and a cheap beam splitter. With three beams it becomes fairly trivial to do a head servo. You want signal transition in the center one only, and the amount of any signal in either of the outer two makes a pretty good drive signal to move the head in that direction to get rid of it. With a bit of smoothing and cheating of course. Plus you could use pretty much the same mechanical arms and actuators as cheap floppies etc. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1ll2kv8upvs4fo5peqqakdfmsi1m0surr1@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <1ll2kv8upvs4fo5peqqakdfmsi1m0surr1@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061262250 12.240.77.188 (Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:04:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:04:10 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:04:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148856 Approximately 8/18/03 16:27, David Powell uttered for posterity: > In article <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net>, > Steve O'Hara-Smith in alt.folklore.computers > wrote: > >>On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:27:53 GMT >>genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >> >>GW> Jim Large wrote: >>GW> >>GW> >CBFalconer wrote: >>GW> > > Roland Hutchinson wrote: >>GW> > >>I think this design is going to have a bit of a problem with >>GW> > >>rumble. Remember rumble? >>GW> > > >>GW> > > WOW. >>GW> > >>GW> >All of this nostalgia is making my heart flutter. >>GW> >>GW> Maybe, we could just scratch this whole subthread? >> >> I'll deck anyone that does that to my records. > > A good shellacking if they touch your 78s? I wanna know who deflowered the virgin vinyl. ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:18:50 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1fzwoft.14ahp4wvki9seN%proto@panix.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1061263130 13588 166.84.199.79 (19 Aug 2003 03:18:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:18:50 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca1-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148876 wrote: > might as well use a spiral. > > There are lots of aspects of CD-specification which are > surprisingly low-tech, aimed at making the chipset as simple > as possible. For instance, in the Table of Contents block > as the beginning of a CD, the track numbers are stored in > Binary Coded Decimal. This was done so as to make displaying > the track currently playing not require a Binary --> BCD > converter. One has to keep the technology of the period of introduction in mind. -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 19 Aug 03 08:11:02 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1091.361T124T4913205@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-182.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148897 In article senator@NOSPAMstargate.net (Bill Bradley) writes: > Monty Python's "Free Album with Matching Tie and Handkerchief" >had multiple grooves on one side [both sides were marked "Side B"] so >it was random which one the needle ended up in. If you got lucky you >could completely confuse someone by playing the same side twice and >getting different tracks. A friend got the album and listened to it several times - he got the same track each time. Then when I visited him he played it again and got the other track instead. I didn't notice anything odd (aside from the fact that side 2 seemed rather short), but he kept saying that he didn't recognize the material and was missing things he did remember. Then he played it again and hit the other groove - and the awful truth dawned on us. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ####### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 19 Aug 03 08:14:47 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <519.361T2350T4945191@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3EE7C6.54A4A71E@ev1.net> <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-183.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148898 In article <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) writes: >I wouldn't put it past Woz to eek out trinary logic out of normal TTL That's "eke". "Eek" is what you say when you figure out what he's done. >:-) Back at you, good buddy. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:13:09 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 2003 17:00:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0293.nas2-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061312406 willi.euronet.nl 45380 62.234.213.39:2719 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!195.34.132.48.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.chello.at!amsnews01.chello.com!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148908 On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: WB> This thread is warped. Woof woof. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 19 Aug 2003 18:48:15 GMT Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F416C3C.58232589@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p183.as1.naas1.eircom.net (159.134.254.183) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061318895 3230351 159.134.254.183 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!p183.as1.naas1.eircom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148883 On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:15:56 -0800, Sam Yorko wrote: > > The CD version of that 1812 from Telarc I got. I knew something was up > when the opening music was really quiet at my normal volume setting, but > I didn't crank up the volume. When the cannon kicked in, I could see > what they had done. > > I lent that CD to a friend, who proceeded to play it on his system. He > wasn't paying attention all that much, and turned up the volume to hear > the first part. He never heard the cannons; first blast tripped his > speaker circuit breakers. one old detective story had this (invented) police saying; (1812, music to cover the sound of murdering your wife) -- greymaus downloading Captain Kirk. .................. ERROR NO CARRIER ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 19 Aug 03 22:23:44 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <854.361T2249T13435406@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-533.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148932 In article <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> lon.stowell@comcast.net (Lon Stowell) writes: > Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: > >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 >>> proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: >>> >>>> This thread is warped. >>> >>> Woof woof. >> >> Your bias is showing. >> > No reason to needle him about it. Your stylus unmistakable. But if I mentioned Auntie skating over there, would the conversation become too elliptical? I'd better stop now, or this vinyl bear bitter fruit. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 03 09:41:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVawMn70T31I1T5H6RSZPmEViT+xh6Q7WTn/l81snJ1lCtCx3Lkohauc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2003 10:46:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!diablo.voicenet.com!199.184.165.233.MISMATCH!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-100 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148927 In article <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 >proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: > >WB> This thread is warped. > > Woof woof. Well, there's either a full moon out or it's time for a hair of the dog. [emoticon gaining its paranoid programming hat] Or it's something else. ROTFLMAO. When you guys get on one these kicks... /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:44:24 +0100 Organization: None Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: hearsay.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1061332990 16730 194.222.24.177 (19 Aug 2003 22:43:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:43:10 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148940 In article , Lon Stowell wrote: > Lasnerian 1983/1984. Trying to recall if any of the early > units actually had true 16 bit D/A convertors or just rewired > 12 and 14 bit ones. I recall not. 16-bit CD players were a very high-end item when they were launched: one of the first things the adverts boasted about was the wonderful 16-bit D/A converters in them. Gradually the 16-bit thing filtered downwards until today when even the cheapest CD player uses a 16-bit chipset. After 16-bit the adverts switched to over-sampling. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:21:29 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148915 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 >proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: > >WB> This thread is warped. > > Woof woof. Your bias is showing. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### X-Abuse-Report: abuse@teranews.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:34:34 GMT Lines: 20 From: wild bill Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.teranews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148912 On 17 Aug 2003 05:01:59 GMT, stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >I don't think so, you need a servo mechanism to keep the track, which >is just series of pits, centred over the laser. Well, not quite. Series of pits, I mean. The pits aren't there until you burn them. The spiral track is, though - that's what causes the rainbow effect, even on a blank disc. And there's a spiral track on pre-recorded ('stamped'?) cd's, too. Besides pits. Takes either 3, 4, or 5 laser beams, or one with splitter(s), to track (drive the tracking motor/servos) and also to recover the data. Depending on who made the drive. Kenwood had one with I think nine separate beams. Whatever. And, funny you should be mentioning vinyl - check out this nifty player: http://www.elpj.com - uses lasers to play vinyl! Bill ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1061347699 12.240.77.188 (Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:48:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:48:19 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:48:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148913 Approximately 8/19/03 19:34, wild bill uttered for posterity: > On 17 Aug 2003 05:01:59 GMT, stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: > >>I don't think so, you need a servo mechanism to keep the track, which >>is just series of pits, centred over the laser. > > Well, not quite. Series of pits, I mean. The pits aren't there until > you burn them. The spiral track is, though - that's what causes > the rainbow effect, even on a blank disc. And there's a spiral > track on pre-recorded ('stamped'?) cd's, too. Besides pits. > > Takes either 3, 4, or 5 laser beams, or one with splitter(s), to track > (drive the tracking motor/servos) and also to recover the data. > Depending on who made the drive. Kenwood had one with I think > nine separate beams. Whatever. > > And, funny you should be mentioning vinyl - check out this > nifty player: http://www.elpj.com - uses lasers to play vinyl! Uses lasers to play vinyl very poorly. Seems that a stylus is a bit better at dealing with a bit of crap in the groove, differences in reflectivity in the plastic at different angles. Don't recall any of the laser LP pickups being worth the powder it would take to blow them to heck. In a CD player it is far easier to create a precision beam splitter for *one* laser beam than it is to create 3 separate beams and keep them at the same power and focus. Anything over 3 beams/lasers is pretty much the same as the "transistor count" in the old radios of the 50's, of absolutely no use whatever except money/sucker separation. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> In-Reply-To: <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1061347779 12.240.77.188 (Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:49:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:49:39 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:49:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148914 Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >>On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 >>proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: >> >>WB> This thread is warped. >> >> Woof woof. > > Your bias is showing. > No reason to needle him about it. ###### Message-ID: <3F42F824.5000207@beagle-ears.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:25:08 -0700 From: Lars Poulsen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en, da MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 1061353569 191 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148917 Simon Slavin wrote: > the 16-bit thing filtered downwards until today when even the > cheapest CD player uses a 16-bit chipset. > > After 16-bit the adverts switched to over-sampling. Somewhere along the way appeared that magical thing: The ONE-BIT DAC. It always seemed strange to me that they would advertize this feature: "We don't really have a DAC, we just bit-bang on a transistor". However, there is a bit more to it tan that. http://www.cs.tut.fi/~rosti/1-bit/ http://www.tc.umn.edu/~erick205/Papers/paper.html -- / Lars Poulsen +1-805-569-5277 http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/ 125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA lars@beagle-ears.com ###### Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:08:05 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030820080805.2e635bd5.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2003 17:00:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0526.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061398805 willi.euronet.nl 45393 62.234.218.18:2768 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!newsfeed.wxs.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148984 On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:48:19 GMT Lon Stowell wrote: LS> Uses lasers to play vinyl very poorly. Seems that a stylus is LS> a bit better at dealing with a bit of crap in the groove, LS> differences in reflectivity in the plastic at different LS> angles. Don't recall any of the laser LP pickups being worth LS> the powder it would take to blow them to heck. Yep, you can outline atoms with a good enough diamond stylus (that's how an AFM works) but not with light. I recall the point being made in one article that the amplitude of a 20Hz signal at -20db on a record is less than the wavelength of red light and yet a decent stylus has no trouble tracking it amid far more extreme modulations. Compared to a bit of polished diamond on a reasonably rigid cantilever a beam of photons is a crude blunt instrument. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:20:40 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061389240 48728 146.186.61.46 (20 Aug 2003 14:20:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:20:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148963 In article , wild bill wrote: >On 17 Aug 2003 05:01:59 GMT, stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >And, funny you should be mentioning vinyl - check out this >nifty player: http://www.elpj.com - uses lasers to play vinyl! I'd like something like that, but even if you lopped off a 0, it would be too rich for my blood. $10.5k for the base model that doesn't even play 78's. $13.3k and $14.3k for the models that do 78's. But no 16's (and yes, we do have a couple). hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:34:10 -0600 Lines: 10 Message-ID: <1fzyp6h.o33y36k31vr6N%lars@bearnip.com> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3EE7C6.54A4A71E@ev1.net> <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> <519.361T2350T4945191@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: gw01-csv-co-39-6.rasserver.net (207.221.54.6) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061393658 4087003 207.221.54.6 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!gw01-csv-co-39-6.rasserver.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148988 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> lars@bearnip.com > (Lars Duening) writes: > > >I wouldn't put it past Woz to eek out trinary logic out of normal TTL > > That's "eke". "Eek" is what you say when you figure out what he's done. So 'eeke' would be what he said while he did what he did? ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:28:05 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f43af3a.101576@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> <854.361T2249T13435406@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148955 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> lon.stowell@comcast.net >(Lon Stowell) writes: > >> Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: >> >>> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 >>>> proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: >>>> >>>>> This thread is warped. >>>> >>>> Woof woof. >>> >>> Your bias is showing. >>> >> No reason to needle him about it. > >Your stylus unmistakable. But if I mentioned Auntie skating >over there, would the conversation become too elliptical? > >I'd better stop now, or this vinyl bear bitter fruit. A good effort, but a little overdone. Your grade: 78%. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F42F824.5000207@beagle-ears.com> In-Reply-To: <3F42F824.5000207@beagle-ears.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1061402127 12.240.77.188 (Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:55:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:55:27 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:55:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148991 Approximately 8/19/03 21:25, Lars Poulsen uttered for posterity: > Simon Slavin wrote: >> the 16-bit thing filtered downwards until today when even the >> cheapest CD player uses a 16-bit chipset. >> >> After 16-bit the adverts switched to over-sampling. > > Somewhere along the way appeared that magical thing: The ONE-BIT > DAC. It always seemed strange to me that they would advertize > this feature: "We don't really have a DAC, we just bit-bang on > a transistor". The 1 bit dacs require oversampling. Design basis that it is far simpler to design the highly accurate clock generation for one of those than it was to design a real 16 bit DAC that actually had any resemblance to accuracy in the lower bits. The linearity available in 16 bit dacs was atrocious without spending kilobucks per dac. Dimly recall it also wasn't a problem easily solved by volume of production type techniques. Wish I could find or recall some of the discussions, along lines of if you were to assign the lowest bit to some reasonably hearable level of audio power, you would need something on the order of a nuke to represent the highest bit. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:03:59 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1061406239.587908@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F42F824.5000207@beagle-ears.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1061406240 23326 80.177.7.220 (20 Aug 2003 19:04:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:04:00 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148974 "Lon Stowell" wrote in message news:jCO0b.59484$2x.21132@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... [SNIP] > The linearity available in 16 bit dacs was atrocious without > spending kilobucks per dac. Dimly recall it also wasn't a > problem easily solved by volume of production type techniques. LOL, check out VGA adaptors ... Super-high speed 8-bit DACs in there, and they do have to be fairly good - you'd notice it if they started dropping bits. I know that a PPOE was quite capable of producing an equally good (although slower) 16-bit DAC in the late 80s... They built the original DACs for IBM though... That was on a what was primarily a digital process too. ;) Cheers, Rupert ###### Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:04:37 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030820210437.71a5ba8b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> <3F3EE727.6705206C@ev1.net> <1694.358T2570T10686015@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F3FA416.4905A698@yahoo.com> <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2003 20:05:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0869.nas4-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061409939 willi.euronet.nl 45386 62.234.223.106:2784 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148986 On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:49:39 GMT Lon Stowell wrote: LS> Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: LS> LS> > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: LS> > LS> >>On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 LS> >>proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: LS> >> LS> >>WB> This thread is warped. LS> >> LS> >> Woof woof. LS> > LS> > Your bias is showing. LS> > LS> No reason to needle him about it. Hey it's cool, everything's groovy. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F43D239.2C699C42@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> <854.361T2249T13435406@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3f43af3a.101576@news.ocis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:01:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.133 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1061409688 12.90.173.133 (Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:01:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:01:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148993 Gene Wirchenko wrote: > "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >(Lon Stowell) writes: > >> Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: > >>> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >>>> proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> This thread is warped. > >>>> > >>>> Woof woof. > >>> > >>> Your bias is showing. > >>> > >> No reason to needle him about it. > > > >Your stylus unmistakable. But if I mentioned Auntie skating > >over there, would the conversation become too elliptical? > > > >I'd better stop now, or this vinyl bear bitter fruit. > > A good effort, but a little overdone. Your grade: 78%. I gave him 33 out of a possible 45. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:19:58 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030820221958.1bd6135b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> <854.361T2249T13435406@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2003 20:28:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0388.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061411286 willi.euronet.nl 10836 62.234.209.134:2787 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148983 On 19 Aug 03 22:23:44 -0800 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: CG> In article <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> lon.stowell@comcast.net CG> (Lon Stowell) writes: CG> CG> > Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: CG> > CG> >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: CG> >> CG> >>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 CG> >>> proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: CG> >>> CG> >>>> This thread is warped. CG> >>> CG> >>> Woof woof. CG> >> CG> >> Your bias is showing. CG> >> CG> > No reason to needle him about it. CG> CG> Your stylus unmistakable. But if I mentioned Auntie skating CG> over there, would the conversation become too elliptical? I see this thread is starting to spindle into quite a yarn, perhaps we autochanger subject lest someone starts moving coils of rope around our necks as punishment. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:32:17 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <854.361T2249T13435406@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3f43af3a.101576@news.ocis.net> <3F43D239.2C699C42@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061411537 26592 146.186.61.46 (20 Aug 2003 20:32:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:32:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148970 In article <3F43D239.2C699C42@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> >Your stylus unmistakable. But if I mentioned Auntie skating >> >over there, would the conversation become too elliptical? >> >I'd better stop now, or this vinyl bear bitter fruit. >> A good effort, but a little overdone. Your grade: 78%. >I gave him 33 out of a possible 45. You guys are acting like you're all 16 . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 22 Aug 03 10:28:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <45q0ib.881.ln@acer> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaZq70gTJrhL4yWJzkrJ4LcNYI48noFwOEI9h9BLSvMkU84ndY1SITV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2003 11:34:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-177 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149057 In article <45q0ib.881.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , >Lon Stowell wrote: >>Approximately 8/17/03 09:34, Jim Large uttered for posterity: >>> Oh my God! Telarc! I used to know a guy -- a golden eared >>> audiophile -- who owned a turntable that could actually play the >>> Telarc recording of the 1812 overture. The disk... Aaugh! The >>> grooves were something like a millimeter apart in the neighborhood >>> of the cannon shots. You could see the waveform with your naked >>> eye. >>> >>> I suppose the tympanni hits at the beginning of "Fanfare" were >>> must've been something like. >> >> "Fanfare" starts with a set of Tam Tam [Tympani on steroids] >> beats, but is not as damaging as 1812 cannon. Telarc had >> one semi-demo CD album that had the disclaimer on it more >> or less: "OK, you Telarc junkies, we have always warned you >> about being able to damage your equipment...well, watch out >> because *this* CD contains some of the highest dynamic range >> material ever produced by Telarc". [Time Warp] >> >> However for sheer woofer/subwoofer destruction, have never >> seen anything worse than the Big Note/747 Takeoff combo from >> the nutcases ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H folks that produced "Digital Domain". >> >> And Telarc even managed to come up with a new version of >> 1812, with a choir this time, even has musical redeeming >> value in addition to popping speaker cones. Demo was >> available at www.telarc.com. > >The "Harmonien" symphony orchestra in my home town Bergen set out >to outdo the Eurovision Song Contest noise in 1986. They performed >the 1812 overture in the city center. WITH real cannons, at least >20 of them; physically located at a nearby hill, and timed so the >sound arrived at the proper moments. I think the Boston Pops does that [real cannons and fireworks] every year at the end of their Fourth of July concerts. I don't know if the cannon sound is the only one used for that effect. > >There is some dynamic range to reproduce in a recording! > >-- mrr > > > > > > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 23 Aug 03 09:48:48 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <45q0ib.881.ln@acer> <3F46B2E9.7B866A40@computer.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa8LhpEsrqqCI925x11rMTUTcPxXT6WtY0qbNDIe6L7vBlWe1AL8ivY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 2003 10:54:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-7 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149074 In article <3F46B2E9.7B866A40@computer.org>, Sam Yorko wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> I think the Boston Pops does that [real cannons and fireworks] >> every year at the end of their Fourth of July concerts. I don't >> know if the cannon sound is the only one used for that effect. >> > >They also use the local church bells for the carrilon at the end... JMF and I always wanted to go but never made it. It was too late and thinking about the crowds convinced us to put it off until next year. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:45:08 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 46 Message-ID: <45q0ib.881.ln@acer> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1061450103 24426 193.71.197.12 (21 Aug 2003 07:15:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:15:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1!bredband!uio.no!193.75.75.20.MISMATCH!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149162 In article , Lon Stowell wrote: >Approximately 8/17/03 09:34, Jim Large uttered for posterity: >> Oh my God! Telarc! I used to know a guy -- a golden eared >> audiophile -- who owned a turntable that could actually play the >> Telarc recording of the 1812 overture. The disk... Aaugh! The >> grooves were something like a millimeter apart in the neighborhood >> of the cannon shots. You could see the waveform with your naked >> eye. >> >> I suppose the tympanni hits at the beginning of "Fanfare" were >> must've been something like. > > "Fanfare" starts with a set of Tam Tam [Tympani on steroids] > beats, but is not as damaging as 1812 cannon. Telarc had > one semi-demo CD album that had the disclaimer on it more > or less: "OK, you Telarc junkies, we have always warned you > about being able to damage your equipment...well, watch out > because *this* CD contains some of the highest dynamic range > material ever produced by Telarc". [Time Warp] > > However for sheer woofer/subwoofer destruction, have never > seen anything worse than the Big Note/747 Takeoff combo from > the nutcases ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H folks that produced "Digital Domain". > > And Telarc even managed to come up with a new version of > 1812, with a choir this time, even has musical redeeming > value in addition to popping speaker cones. Demo was > available at www.telarc.com. The "Harmonien" symphony orchestra in my home town Bergen set out to outdo the Eurovision Song Contest noise in 1986. They performed the 1812 overture in the city center. WITH real cannons, at least 20 of them; physically located at a nearby hill, and timed so the sound arrived at the proper moments. There is some dynamic range to reproduce in a recording! -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> <854.361T2249T13435406@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3f43af3a.101576@news.ocis.net> <3F43D239.2C699C42@yahoo.com> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:51:00 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.144.24 X-Trace: 1061427262 freenews.iinet.net.au 23607 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!freenews.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149155 CBFalconer writes: >Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >> >(Lon Stowell) writes: >> >> Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: >> >>> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >>>> proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> This thread is warped. >> >>>> >> >>>> Woof woof. >> >>> >> >>> Your bias is showing. >> >>> >> >> No reason to needle him about it. >> > >> >Your stylus unmistakable. But if I mentioned Auntie skating >> >over there, would the conversation become too elliptical? >> > >> >I'd better stop now, or this vinyl bear bitter fruit. >> >> A good effort, but a little overdone. Your grade: 78%. >I gave him 33 out of a possible 45. Go on; get him up to speed and give him the extra third. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:25:18 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f444262.37779162@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3EE7C6.54A4A71E@ev1.net> <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> <519.361T2350T4945191@kltpzyxm.invalid> <1fzyp6h.o33y36k31vr6N%lars@bearnip.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149024 lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) wrote: >Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> In article <1fzstqr.10cg0941j5ftgkN%lars@bearnip.com> lars@bearnip.com >> (Lars Duening) writes: >> >> >I wouldn't put it past Woz to eek out trinary logic out of normal TTL >> >> That's "eke". "Eek" is what you say when you figure out what he's done. > >So 'eeke' would be what he said while he did what he did? Not to be confused with "E-eke" which would be the Web equivalent of to eke out a living. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Jan van den Broek Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corp. References: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:06:02 MET Message-ID: X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Timestamp: 3F45343A X-Newsreader: Jan's fantastische newsreader X-mas: in 126 days. Reply-By: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 01:00:00 X-Order: Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps, please. X-Question: never, never known not even by many to exist X-rays: Do not expose this message to X-rays. X-Answer: 42 X-Message-Flag: Your mailbox is corrupt. Upgrade your mail software. X-Face: "fuW8I]DqAx-xKokQCuu#ifVcPFa|PmyK5)[@yLy}l~Y*pG>\ZlCAm5AEYTKThYtzk_|r3[75^"2:;]XW%lnP! Originator: balglaas@xs1.xs4all.nl (Jan van den Broek) Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2003 23:11:12 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.109.3.11 X-Trace: 1061500272 news.xs4all.nl 49114 194.109.3.11:3368 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!blue.qinip.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149110 Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:53:20 GMT Lon Stowell schrieb: >Approximately 8/14/03 20:32, Joe Pfeiffer uttered for posterity: > >> slavins@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) writes: >>> >>> Nearly. But floppy disks (even to Woz's design) stored >>> information in concentric circles. CDs and DVDs actually use >>> a spiral, just like vinyl ! >> >> Seriously? There was a reason to do this with vinyl -- why on earth >> would CDs do this? > > Because they can. Also makes servo components less expensive > allegedly. Just to add a bit of CD-trivia, the hole in the middle has the size of a (pre-Euro) Dutch 10c coin. -- Jan van den Broek balglaas@xs4all.nl No fish were harmed in posting this message. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Jan van den Broek Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Organization: Sirius Cybernetics Corp. References: Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:13:20 MET Message-ID: X-No-Ahbou: yes X-Timestamp: 3F4535F0 X-Newsreader: Jan's fantastische newsreader X-mas: in 126 days. Reply-By: Thu, 01 Jan 1970 01:00:00 X-Order: Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps, please. X-Question: never, never known not even by many to exist X-rays: Do not expose this message to X-rays. X-Answer: 42 X-Message-Flag: Your mailbox is corrupt. Upgrade your mail software. X-Face: "fuW8I]DqAx-xKokQCuu#ifVcPFa|PmyK5)[@yLy}l~Y*pG>\ZlCAm5AEYTKThYtzk_|r3[75^"2:;]XW%lnP! Originator: balglaas@xs1.xs4all.nl (Jan van den Broek) Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2003 23:11:12 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.109.3.11 X-Trace: 1061500272 news.xs4all.nl 49116 194.109.3.11:3370 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!transit.news.xs4all.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149111 Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:02:36 +0800 Bernd Felsche schrieb: [Schnipp] >An "innovation" that I've seen advertised recently is a small car >that drives around on a vinyl record, playing the music by following >the groove. They've probably been around for half a century in one >form or another. I can recall one shaped like a VW-van ('70-ish). -- Jan van den Broek balglaas@xs4all.nl No fish were harmed in posting this message. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:31:54 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f45267a.7624996@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3f3fca57.2275075@news.ocis.net> <20030817230341.4b8d1722.steveo@eircom.net> <1fzw66o.1mq8h4tra705N%proto@panix.com> <20030819071309.4e63a0d5.steveo@eircom.net> <3f428762.14969226@news.ocis.net> <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> <854.361T2249T13435406@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030820221958.1bd6135b.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149025 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On 19 Aug 03 22:23:44 -0800 >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >CG> In article <7lB0b.154905$Oz4.42396@rwcrnsc54> lon.stowell@comcast.net >CG> (Lon Stowell) writes: >CG> >CG> > Approximately 8/19/03 19:21, Gene Wirchenko uttered for posterity: >CG> > >CG> >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >CG> >> >CG> >>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:00 -0400 >CG> >>> proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: >CG> >>> >CG> >>>> This thread is warped. >CG> >>> >CG> >>> Woof woof. >CG> >> >CG> >> Your bias is showing. >CG> >> >CG> > No reason to needle him about it. >CG> >CG> Your stylus unmistakable. But if I mentioned Auntie skating >CG> over there, would the conversation become too elliptical? > > I see this thread is starting to spindle into quite a yarn, >perhaps we autochanger subject lest someone starts moving coils of >rope around our necks as punishment. Let me go on the record as being opposed to such harshness. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:16:16 +0100 Organization: Nextra UK Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <45q0ib.881.ln@acer> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 77.24.153.194.dial.cix.gxn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: thorium.cix.co.uk 1061514700 12994 194.153.24.77 (22 Aug 2003 01:11:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@net.nextra.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:11:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.nextra.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149002 In article <45q0ib.881.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >In article , >Lon Stowell wrote: >>Approximately 8/17/03 09:34, Jim Large uttered for posterity: >>> Oh my God! Telarc! I used to know a guy -- a golden eared >>> audiophile -- who owned a turntable that could actually play the >>> Telarc recording of the 1812 overture. The disk... Aaugh! The >>> grooves were something like a millimeter apart in the neighborhood >>> of the cannon shots. You could see the waveform with your naked >>> eye. >>> >>> I suppose the tympanni hits at the beginning of "Fanfare" were >>> must've been something like. >> >> "Fanfare" starts with a set of Tam Tam [Tympani on steroids] >> beats, but is not as damaging as 1812 cannon. Telarc had >> one semi-demo CD album that had the disclaimer on it more >> or less: "OK, you Telarc junkies, we have always warned you >> about being able to damage your equipment...well, watch out >> because *this* CD contains some of the highest dynamic range >> material ever produced by Telarc". [Time Warp] >> >> However for sheer woofer/subwoofer destruction, have never >> seen anything worse than the Big Note/747 Takeoff combo from >> the nutcases ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H folks that produced "Digital Domain". >> >> And Telarc even managed to come up with a new version of >> 1812, with a choir this time, even has musical redeeming >> value in addition to popping speaker cones. Demo was >> available at www.telarc.com. > >The "Harmonien" symphony orchestra in my home town Bergen set out >to outdo the Eurovision Song Contest noise in 1986. They performed >the 1812 overture in the city center. WITH real cannons, at least >20 of them; physically located at a nearby hill, and timed so the >sound arrived at the proper moments. > I'd have loaded and aimed the cannon at the E.S.C. and battery fire until all destroyed. >There is some dynamic range to reproduce in a recording! Then listened to Mahler 5, perhaps 8. Several times, whilst getting totally drunk, and to bed with that sense of satisfaction that comes from an unpleasant, but necessary job well done. Regards, David P. ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:18:49 -0800 Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3F46B2E9.7B866A40@computer.org> References: <45q0ib.881.ln@acer> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061594295 6009018 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149020 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > I think the Boston Pops does that [real cannons and fireworks] > every year at the end of their Fourth of July concerts. I don't > know if the cannon sound is the only one used for that effect. > They also use the local church bells for the carrilon at the end... Sam ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <45q0ib.881.ln@acer> <3F46B2E9.7B866A40@computer.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Message-ID: <_GS1b.237847$YN5.160481@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1061680954 12.240.77.188 (Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:22:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:22:34 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:22:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149256 Approximately 8/23/03 02:48, jmfbahciv@aol.com uttered for posterity: > In article <3F46B2E9.7B866A40@computer.org>, > Sam Yorko wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>> I think the Boston Pops does that [real cannons and fireworks] >>> every year at the end of their Fourth of July concerts. I don't >>> know if the cannon sound is the only one used for that effect. >>> >> >>They also use the local church bells for the carrilon at the end... > > JMF and I always wanted to go but never made it. It was too late > and thinking about the crowds convinced us to put it off until > next year. Had the extreme fortune to be there in July 1976, and better yet didn't have to drive. Memorable: both the traffic jam and the occasion. ###### From: iMeowbot Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Mail-Copies-To: nobody Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Organization: uJane References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F3DAE21.4C0C255C@ev1.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Meow: Wouf X-No-Repost: yes Injector-Info: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Tarantula_20injector X-Face: ')Fflcs!^R}Ds420ESFBO$}^v}i=A9jhnT\3.x#V)XnBrjF8FDwO).{#sN<#bI#A0Y-IU>I iz^}DhL#8nvP8,Ef*_4tdZUl#gwDK=7]>l"53tML>J1S8!)4vsDuy8j0]Rx Message-ID: Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:03:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.199.41.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1061683388 151.199.41.186 (Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:03:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:03:08 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149267 In article , Lon Stowell wrote: > There is nothing to prevent the pickup on an LP from tracking > from inside to outside, or even having counter grooves, or > multiple grooves. Mad magazine is the only example I can > think of that ever had a inner--outer groove. Some of the really old records (78s) did this. > Classical recording engineers would likely have preferred > the inner--outer groove to eliminate the inner groove distortion > issue on classical music which tends to start soft but with > louder climax. With some exceptions such as Telarc Fanfare > for the Common Man of course. ...and this is even one of the reasons why they did it that way. There's a nice litle article at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/8764/centerst.htm describing them. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 24 Aug 03 10:10:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <45q0ib.881.ln@acer> <3F46B2E9.7B866A40@computer.org> <_GS1b.237847$YN5.160481@sccrnsc01> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZHFzJZBK0O4KI+XVm8fWOBMPd85NRd8K9UNSETPLa2vO3+F3ZEtxr6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Aug 2003 11:16:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-99 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149283 In article <_GS1b.237847$YN5.160481@sccrnsc01>, Lon Stowell wrote: >Approximately 8/23/03 02:48, jmfbahciv@aol.com uttered for posterity: > >> In article <3F46B2E9.7B866A40@computer.org>, >> Sam Yorko wrote: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I think the Boston Pops does that [real cannons and fireworks] >>>> every year at the end of their Fourth of July concerts. I don't >>>> know if the cannon sound is the only one used for that effect. >>>> >>> >>>They also use the local church bells for the carrilon at the end... >> >> JMF and I always wanted to go but never made it. It was too late >> and thinking about the crowds convinced us to put it off until >> next year. > > Had the extreme fortune to be there in July 1976, and better > yet didn't have to drive. Memorable: both the traffic jam > and the occasion. Another grand day is Patriot's Day. They reenact "the shot that was heard around the world" early in the morning. We always went to TW's house since it was at the 10 mile marker of the Boston Marathon. I handed out a lot of orange quarters and water glasses. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: archmage@sfchat.org (Nate Edel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:14:59 -0700 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F42F824.5000207@beagle-ears.com> <1061406239.587908@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: adsl-64-175-238-203.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net (64.175.238.203) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061704338 7321907 64.175.238.203 (16 [105635]) X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail User-Agent: tin/1.6.0-20030714 ("Vatersay") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.20-wolk4.0s (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!adsl-64-175-238-203.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149279 Rupert Pigott wrote: > LOL, check out VGA adaptors ... Super-high speed 8-bit DACs > in there, and they do have to be fairly good - you'd notice > it if they started dropping bits. Are you sure 1st-generation VGA involved 8-bit DACs? I could have swarn that VGA was 256-out-of-256k or 16-out-of-256k (thus 3x 6bit DACs) and that 8-bit DACs were limited to the pre-XGA-like-adapter (8154?) for that generation. I know 8-bit DACs and 24-bit color became ubiqitous in SVGA adapters (Cirrus Logic chips) a few years later, but I'm not sure about the earlier SVGA chips (ET4000, for example.) -- Nate Edel http://www.nkedel.com/ "This is not a humorous tagline." ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:52:31 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1061725951.473247@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <1boeyrppda.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1bzni9l7uo.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3F42F824.5000207@beagle-ears.com> <1061406239.587908@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1061725951 9664 80.177.7.220 (24 Aug 2003 11:52:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:52:31 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149289 "Nate Edel" wrote in message news:j7ul11-34.ln1@mail.sfchat.org... > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > LOL, check out VGA adaptors ... Super-high speed 8-bit DACs > > in there, and they do have to be fairly good - you'd notice > > it if they started dropping bits. > > Are you sure 1st-generation VGA involved 8-bit DACs? Dunno about which generation that would be, and yes I do recall the 6-bit tomfoolery. However I'm pretty sure that the PPOE *had* shipped 8-bit DACs to IBM. Some of the designers had gone on to form or join BrookTree - this was 1990. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:36:46 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 25 Message-ID: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: <3F42F824.5000207@beagle-ears.com> <1061406239.587908@saucer.planet.gong> <1061725951.473247@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: p12-max3.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1061811406 4416 203.173.223.44 (25 Aug 2003 11:36:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:36:46 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc2b Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149334 In <1061725951.473247@saucer.planet.gong> Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Nate Edel" wrote in message > news:j7ul11-34.ln1@mail.sfchat.org... >> Rupert Pigott wrote: >> > LOL, check out VGA adaptors ... Super-high speed 8-bit DACs >> > in there, and they do have to be fairly good - you'd notice >> > it if they started dropping bits. >> >> Are you sure 1st-generation VGA involved 8-bit DACs? > > Dunno about which generation that would be, and yes I > do recall the 6-bit tomfoolery. However I'm pretty sure > that the PPOE *had* shipped 8-bit DACs to IBM. Some of > the designers had gone on to form or join BrookTree - > this was 1990. :) I don't know what they used for DACs, but the Macintosh II was introduced in March 1987, about the same time as IBM's VGA, and Apple's video card had 24-bit colour output. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand PS/2 Mouse Adapter for vintage Apple II or Mac order at http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:06:58 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <_GS1b.237847$YN5.160481@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061827618 37268 146.186.61.46 (25 Aug 2003 16:06:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:06:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149318 In article , wrote: >In article <_GS1b.237847$YN5.160481@sccrnsc01>, > Lon Stowell wrote: >> Had the extreme fortune to be there in July 1976, and better >> yet didn't have to drive. Memorable: both the traffic jam >> and the occasion. >Another grand day is Patriot's Day. They reenact "the shot that >was heard around the world" early in the morning. So who fires it in their version? My father's pet theory is that Samuel Adams fired it out a window to get things going :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 03 09:29:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <_GS1b.237847$YN5.160481@sccrnsc01> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbZvR4qG6wTi9DSh5x7+HTKeb8mVm5/xzb0OM9iaordkvKBWztOoapp X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2003 10:35:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-99 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149387 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article <_GS1b.237847$YN5.160481@sccrnsc01>, >> Lon Stowell wrote: > > >>> Had the extreme fortune to be there in July 1976, and better >>> yet didn't have to drive. Memorable: both the traffic jam >>> and the occasion. > >>Another grand day is Patriot's Day. They reenact "the shot that >>was heard around the world" early in the morning. > >So who fires it in their version? I have no idea. I never went to see it. > >My father's pet theory is that Samuel Adams fired it out a window to get >things going :) Interesting. I'd have to go look at the geography to see if it would have worked. It's difficult to "see" because the place is a park. I've been trying to read the Federalist Papers. When I think of how close we came to having a mess...I had no idea all of this stuff went on back then. We sure didn't get any idea in grade school that people were just as fractious as they are today. :-). Are you canning peppers yet? I did some tomatoes yesterday. Oh, wait. The apple in the subject isn't a cannable comestable. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:44:59 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061909099 53718 146.186.61.46 (26 Aug 2003 14:44:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:44:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149440 In article , wrote: >In article , > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>In article , wrote: >>>Another grand day is Patriot's Day. They reenact "the shot that >>>was heard around the world" early in the morning. >>So who fires it in their version? >I have no idea. I never went to see it. awe :) >>My father's pet theory is that Samuel Adams fired it out a window to get >>things going :) >Interesting. I'd have to go look at the geography to see if it >would have worked. It's difficult to "see" because the place >is a park. You'd need the geography from the 1870's. I would assume, however, that there would be plenty of building very close to the town commons . . . >I've been trying to read the Federalist Papers. When I think >of how close we came to having a mess...I had no idea all of >this stuff went on back then. We sure didn't get any idea >in grade school that people were just as fractious as they >are today. :-). Humanity will likely never again see the genius that produced the Constitution gathered togethere in the same place. I shudder to think of what would happen if we tried such a convention today (although I thnk part of the aftermath would include my return home to Nevada to help with secession :) >Are you canning peppers yet? I did some tomatoes yesterday. It's not looking likely. We've only gotten a couple of peppers; the whole lot didn't do well this year (bell, jalapeno, chile). There's some hope now for the habenero, though; they've blossomed in the past few days. And the cilantro didn't survive replanting after the neighbor mistakenly pulled it as weed (and the second got choked out by weeds :( ). Even the tomatoes are thinner than last year. But how do I can them again? (I plan on picking up a pressure canner in the next few days). >Oh, wait. The apple in the subject isn't a cannable comestable. Sure it is. They canned Jobs, they canned Sculley, . . . :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 03 10:46:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 105 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaGJ880BJOW7moWSQIKCAcRJoXAax2zVOQMlWTfZ4CYX9wWPY0f4TZ0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2003 11:53:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-197 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149488 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article , >> hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>>In article , wrote: > >>>>Another grand day is Patriot's Day. They reenact "the shot that >>>>was heard around the world" early in the morning. > >>>So who fires it in their version? > >>I have no idea. I never went to see it. > >awe :) Yep. JMF had already seen it, so _we_ didn't see it. And I didn't tend to go by myself. > >>>My father's pet theory is that Samuel Adams fired it out a window to get >>>things going :) > >>Interesting. I'd have to go look at the geography to see if it >>would have worked. It's difficult to "see" because the place >>is a park. > >You'd need the geography from the 1870's. I would assume, however, that >there would be plenty of building very close to the town commons . . . But that place isn't anywhere near the commons, assuming the commons is where it is now. I may be all screwed up. I need a map. > >>I've been trying to read the Federalist Papers. When I think >>of how close we came to having a mess...I had no idea all of >>this stuff went on back then. We sure didn't get any idea >>in grade school that people were just as fractious as they >>are today. :-). > >Humanity will likely never again see the genius that produced the >Constitution gathered togethere in the same place. It certainly helped that each state tried all kinds of implementations within a 10-year span. That convention was essentially a report of what didn't work and why it didn't work :-). These were always the most useful meetings. > .. I shudder to think >of what would happen if we tried such a convention today (although I >thnk part of the aftermath would include my return home to Nevada to >help with secession :) This is exactly what I've been thinking whenever I read them. Oh, it would never pass. Too many people are entrenched in too many fiefdoms to cede any piece of power. Look at ol' Bill Bulger who will finally be out of picking UMass' rich pockets. I never heard of a rebellion in Massachusetts; it was used as an example often of what not to do. It's on my list of things to find. > > >>Are you canning peppers yet? I did some tomatoes yesterday. > >It's not looking likely. We've only gotten a couple of peppers; the >whole lot didn't do well this year (bell, jalapeno, chile). I don't think anything did well in the northern states. Mom usually grows everything well despite any adverse conditions. She can't even grow cukes this year. The toms I canned did not come from my garden. I bought them at the local truck farm. I may get exactly one tomato from my plants. >Even the tomatoes are thinner than last year. But how do I can them >again? (I plan on picking up a pressure canner in the next few days). Pressure canner can be used for tomatoes. Follow the instructions that come with the canner. IF the toms are acid, you can also use a water bath. That means that you cold pack or hot pack the tomatoes into the jars. Put the jars into a very large pot, cover with water, and boil them for a certain amount of time. When you buy that canner (get one with a real live gauge), also buy a "Ball Blue Book". What isn't in the instructions that come with the canner will be in the Blue Book. Between the two of them, you can figure out just about anything. The Blue Book will tell you how to can using a water bath. Canning under pressure is safer because you don't have to worry about acidity. > >>Oh, wait. The apple in the subject isn't a cannable comestable. > >Sure it is. They canned Jobs, they canned Sculley, . . . > >:) It's also part of knowledge preservation. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 27 Aug 03 10:46:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 105 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaGJ880BJOW7moWSQIKCAcRJoXAax2zVOQMlWTfZ4CYX9wWPY0f4TZ0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2003 11:53:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-197 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149530 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article , >> hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>>In article , wrote: > >>>>Another grand day is Patriot's Day. They reenact "the shot that >>>>was heard around the world" early in the morning. > >>>So who fires it in their version? > >>I have no idea. I never went to see it. > >awe :) Yep. JMF had already seen it, so _we_ didn't see it. And I didn't tend to go by myself. > >>>My father's pet theory is that Samuel Adams fired it out a window to get >>>things going :) > >>Interesting. I'd have to go look at the geography to see if it >>would have worked. It's difficult to "see" because the place >>is a park. > >You'd need the geography from the 1870's. I would assume, however, that >there would be plenty of building very close to the town commons . . . But that place isn't anywhere near the commons, assuming the commons is where it is now. I may be all screwed up. I need a map. > >>I've been trying to read the Federalist Papers. When I think >>of how close we came to having a mess...I had no idea all of >>this stuff went on back then. We sure didn't get any idea >>in grade school that people were just as fractious as they >>are today. :-). > >Humanity will likely never again see the genius that produced the >Constitution gathered togethere in the same place. It certainly helped that each state tried all kinds of implementations within a 10-year span. That convention was essentially a report of what didn't work and why it didn't work :-). These were always the most useful meetings. > .. I shudder to think >of what would happen if we tried such a convention today (although I >thnk part of the aftermath would include my return home to Nevada to >help with secession :) This is exactly what I've been thinking whenever I read them. Oh, it would never pass. Too many people are entrenched in too many fiefdoms to cede any piece of power. Look at ol' Bill Bulger who will finally be out of picking UMass' rich pockets. I never heard of a rebellion in Massachusetts; it was used as an example often of what not to do. It's on my list of things to find. > > >>Are you canning peppers yet? I did some tomatoes yesterday. > >It's not looking likely. We've only gotten a couple of peppers; the >whole lot didn't do well this year (bell, jalapeno, chile). I don't think anything did well in the northern states. Mom usually grows everything well despite any adverse conditions. She can't even grow cukes this year. The toms I canned did not come from my garden. I bought them at the local truck farm. I may get exactly one tomato from my plants. >Even the tomatoes are thinner than last year. But how do I can them >again? (I plan on picking up a pressure canner in the next few days). Pressure canner can be used for tomatoes. Follow the instructions that come with the canner. IF the toms are acid, you can also use a water bath. That means that you cold pack or hot pack the tomatoes into the jars. Put the jars into a very large pot, cover with water, and boil them for a certain amount of time. When you buy that canner (get one with a real live gauge), also buy a "Ball Blue Book". What isn't in the instructions that come with the canner will be in the Blue Book. Between the two of them, you can figure out just about anything. The Blue Book will tell you how to can using a water bath. Canning under pressure is safer because you don't have to worry about acidity. > >>Oh, wait. The apple in the subject isn't a cannable comestable. > >Sure it is. They canned Jobs, they canned Sculley, . . . > >:) It's also part of knowledge preservation. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Lines: 5 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: writer777777@aol.com (Writer777777) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 27 Aug 2003 23:37:20 GMT References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149591 The Apple II has a great assortment of games and can handle businrss processing. My Apple II had only 48K RAM but could do a lot of processing. It was a great machine in 1978. Sabu ###### From: Randy Howard Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:57:51 -0500 Organization: Imperious Overlords Anonymous Message-ID: References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149648 In article <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com>, writer777777 @aol.com says... > The Apple II has a great assortment of games and can handle businrss > processing. My Apple II had only 48K RAM but could do a lot of processing. It > was a great machine in 1978. Actually, the Heathkit H-89 of the same time period was a far better machine in my opinion. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> From: Mike Spencer X-Organization: Bridgewater Institute for Advanced Study - Blacksmith Shop Message-ID: Organization: Bridgewater Institute for Advanced Study - Blacksmith Shop Lines: 12 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Date: 29 Aug 2003 23:13:20 -0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.222.77.66 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1062209601 24.222.77.66 (Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:13:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:13:21 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149844 Q> What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? A> It had an analog to digital device built in. Any widget whose A> behavior could be made to produce a proportional voltage 0-15v DC A> could be monitored on the Apple ][ as an integer 0-256. Wish my Intel/Gnu/Linux box (or even my old 486/DOS 5) had that. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada ###### Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:55:02 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20030830095502.3c8efd77.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2003 11:03:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0071.nas2-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1062241434 willi.euronet.nl 45377 62.234.212.71:1028 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!130.59.10.21.MISMATCH!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149831 On 29 Aug 2003 23:13:20 -0300 Mike Spencer wrote: MS> MS> Q> What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? MS> MS> A> It had an analog to digital device built in. Any widget whose MS> A> behavior could be made to produce a proportional voltage 0-15v DC MS> A> could be monitored on the Apple ][ as an integer 0-256. MS> MS> Wish my Intel/Gnu/Linux box (or even my old 486/DOS 5) had that. There's something pretty similar in the sound card, coupled with hardware for taking samples at regular short intervals. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:21:23 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 23 Message-ID: <20030830232111402+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p33-max2.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1062242483 2312 203.173.222.225 (30 Aug 2003 11:21:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:21:23 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc2b Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149821 In Mike Spencer wrote: > > Q> What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? > > A> It had an analog to digital device built in. Any widget whose > A> behavior could be made to produce a proportional voltage 0-15v DC > A> could be monitored on the Apple ][ as an integer 0-256. > > Wish my Intel/Gnu/Linux box (or even my old 486/DOS 5) had that. It probably does. It's called the joystick port. The IBM PC joystick port works in almost exactly the same way as the Apple II joystick port, by timing how long a capacitor takes to charge up. The voltage is normally supplied from the tap on a variable resistor inside a joystick connected to +5V, but it can measure any variable voltage of 0V to 5V. This type of sampling is very simple and cheap, but the sampling time is slow, probably a few milliseconds per sample. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand PS/2 Mouse Adapter for vintage Apple II or Mac order at http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 31 Aug 03 11:02:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <2g03lvk8gic0c7glsken672apusbsnekpj@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbe6AMPM08OxkzzIce+M9utBHRxHOrV18NjdTumwPhpWtZVaHU25Uxm X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2003 12:09:53 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149882 In article <2g03lvk8gic0c7glsken672apusbsnekpj@4ax.com>, Giles Todd wrote: >On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:44:59 +0000 (UTC), hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu >(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > >> Humanity will likely never again see the genius that produced the >> Constitution gathered togethere in the same place. I shudder to think >> of what would happen if we tried such a convention today (although I >> thnk part of the aftermath would include my return home to Nevada to >> help with secession :) > >The recent EU Constitutional Convention has demonstrated what a pig's >ear can be made of such a mandate nowadays. One of the key elements of the Convention is that all the states had experimented with a gazillion flavors of government all within 10 years. They knew what didn't work and why it didn't work. For that matter, both the implementers _and_ the users knew. Anybody who managed to wake up every morning and get out to do some work all had intensive field test experience, including all the tweaks. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> <20030830232111402+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> From: Mike Spencer X-Organization: Bridgewater Institute for Advanced Study - Blacksmith Shop Organization: Bridgewater Institute for Advanced Study - Blacksmith Shop X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Message-ID: Lines: 18 Date: 31 Aug 2003 01:10:58 -0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.222.77.31 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1062303060 24.222.77.31 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:11:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:11:00 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149905 me> (Apple ][) had an analog to digital device built in..... me> Wish my Intel/Gnu/Linux box (or even my old 486/DOS 5) had that. Roger Johnstone quoth: > It probably does. It's called the joystick port. [ snip details ] Oh, that's nice to know. I never had a joystick on any of my computers. I'll have to see what kind of toys I can rig up. Thanks. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada http://home.tallships.ca/mspencer/ ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:12:40 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: <2g03lvk8gic0c7glsken672apusbsnekpj@4ax.com> Cancel-Lock: sha1:prxB0jmHY32TPno68s/BWoxUmNg= References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2003 07:12:49 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1062306769 news.xs4all.nl 49104 80.127.198.243:1357 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149927 On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:44:59 +0000 (UTC), hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > Humanity will likely never again see the genius that produced the > Constitution gathered togethere in the same place. I shudder to think > of what would happen if we tried such a convention today (although I > thnk part of the aftermath would include my return home to Nevada to > help with secession :) The recent EU Constitutional Convention has demonstrated what a pig's ear can be made of such a mandate nowadays. Giles. ###### From: jimmydevice Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:12:44 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149891 Mike Spencer wrote: > Q> What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? > > A> It had an analog to digital device built in. Any widget whose > A> behavior could be made to produce a proportional voltage 0-15v DC > A> could be monitored on the Apple ][ as an integer 0-256. > > Wish my Intel/Gnu/Linux box (or even my old 486/DOS 5) had that. > Use a sound card line input with a divider network, Faster and better resolution. You might need an isolator, magnetic or optical, for some applications. Jim Davis. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <20030825233640848+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <20030827193720.07564.00000023@mb-m17.aol.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 31 Aug 2003 10:17:27 GMT Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-191-116.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1062325047 news.dial.pipex.com 247 62.241.191.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149866 On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:12:44 -0700, jimmydevice wrote: >Mike Spencer wrote: > >> Q> What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? >> >> A> It had an analog to digital device built in. Any widget whose >> A> behavior could be made to produce a proportional voltage 0-15v DC >> A> could be monitored on the Apple ][ as an integer 0-256. >> >> Wish my Intel/Gnu/Linux box (or even my old 486/DOS 5) had that. >> >Use a sound card line input with a divider network, Faster and better >resolution. You might need an isolator, magnetic or optical, for some >applications. I bought a 8-port a2d board, much better. Unfortunately they are usually industrial items and priced accordingly, but I found and old used one quite cheap. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: "Mariani 'Darkpand' Dario" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:16:53 +0200 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip111-1-24.dialup.edisontel.com (62.94.14.112) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1062539059 15401150 62.94.14.112 (16 [146581]) X-Orig-Path: 192.168.0.2!nobody User-Agent: Pan/0.13.4 (She had eyes like strange sins.) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ip111-1-24.dialup.edisontel.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150210 On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:15:03 +0000, Stan Barr wrote: > I used to have a program (not one of mine!) that would play music - I mean > proper recordings, not digital bleeps - on the internal speaker of my old > AT by using pulse width modulation toggling of the speaker. There was a "PC Speaker" sound driver on win 3.11 . The 486 that i used in the computer lab (i'm too much young for this newsgroup :) ) was the only to have startup/shutdown sounds, useful to drive mad the teacher and the lab assistant. :) -- Mariani "Darkpand" Dario darkpand@libero.it IAFo #126 ICQ# 49365960 "L'uomo e' tanto meno se' stesso quanto piu' parla in persona propria: dategli una maschera e vi dira' la verita'" -- Oscar Wilde ###### From: "Dave Zook" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:37:11 -0500 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: aca979b1.ipt.aol.com X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1066955866 14238 172.169.121.177 (24 Oct 2003 00:37:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:37:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:153873 I have a demo diskette for a "Golf" game that produced intelligible speech using the PC Speaker with no sound card (didn't have sound cards back then). The only phrase I remember is "I'll take that." which was clear and even had expression/intonation. "Charles Richmond" wrote in message news:3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net... > Pete Fenelon wrote: > > > > "Bob Billing (AKA Uncle Bob)" wrote: > > > OTOH it is sometimes possible to do startling things. I once came across > > > a board which had a buzzer, controlled by one bit, and a real-time > > > clock. By chopping the buzzer on and off it was possible - rather > > > unreliably - to get a different tone. I wish I'd had the time to make it > > > cuckoo the hours. > > > > Sounds like Apple ][ sound. ;) > > > IIRC, the original IBM PC had this type of speaker arrangement also. > > > -- > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 07:18:15 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2003 17:00:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0565.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1067014805 flip.euronet.nl 433 62.234.218.57:1323 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:153902 On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:37:11 -0500 "Dave Zook" wrote: DZ> I have a demo diskette for a "Golf" game that produced intelligible DZ> speech using the PC Speaker with no sound card (didn't have sound DZ> cards back then). I remember that one - it had "Echelon Realsound" it used pulse width modulation and probably had the CPU spending most of the time in the interrupt handler for the pulse timing :) There was a slightly earlier program that used the same technique called drain - "Water detected in drive A: - Draining - Spin dry sequence starting - - ..." or thereabouts. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 24 Oct 03 13:35:25 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1288.427T1266T8154111@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net><3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net><3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net><1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com><3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk><3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-233.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:153910 In article <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> steveo@eircom.net (Steve O'Hara-Smith) writes: >On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:37:11 -0500 >"Dave Zook" wrote: > >> I have a demo diskette for a "Golf" game that produced intelligible >> speech using the PC Speaker with no sound card (didn't have sound >> cards back then). > > I remember that one - it had "Echelon Realsound" it used pulse >width modulation and probably had the CPU spending most of the time in >the interrupt handler for the pulse timing :) > > There was a slightly earlier program that used the same >technique called drain - "Water detected in drive A: - Draining > - Spin dry sequence starting - - >..." or thereabouts. Yes, I have a copy of that one kicking around somewhere. I also have another one that I picked up at about the same time, which reproduces a man's voice remarkably well for bit-banging the speaker; it says something like "Help! Somebody! I'm trapped insude this computer!" -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:38:01 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 34 Message-ID: <20031025183721113+1300@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p28-max3.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="MACINTOSH" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1067060281 20523 203.173.223.60 (25 Oct 2003 05:38:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 05:38:01 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc2b Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:153919 In <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:37:11 -0500 > "Dave Zook" wrote: > > DZ> I have a demo diskette for a "Golf" game that produced > intelligible DZ> speech using the PC Speaker with no sound card ( > didn't have sound DZ> cards back then). > > I remember that one - it had "Echelon Realsound" it used pulse > width modulation and probably had the CPU spending most of the time in > the interrupt handler for the pulse timing :) > > There was a slightly earlier program that used the same technique > called drain - "Water detected in drive A: - Draining > - Spin dry sequence starting - - ..." or > thereabouts. A single channel of audio is fairly simple to do, but what really surprised me was seeing a MOD music player running on an MS-DOS PC about ten years ago. It was playing back four channels of digitised audio with an animated display! There are software-only players for the Apple II as well. Michael Mahon has written probably the best one, description of it at . It plays back 11kHz 5-bit sampled sound. What's impressive is that with a 1MHz processor the entire pulse width modulation loop for an 11kHz sample is only 93 cycles long! -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand PS/2 Mouse Adapter for vintage Apple II or Mac order at http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz ###### Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 09:42:08 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20031025094208.20487d6c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> <1288.427T1266T8154111@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Oct 2003 08:50:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0271.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1067071806 willi.euronet.nl 166 62.234.217.17:1363 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:153922 On 24 Oct 03 13:35:25 -0800 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: CG> Yes, I have a copy of that one kicking around somewhere. I also CG> have another one that I picked up at about the same time, which CG> reproduces a man's voice remarkably well for bit-banging the CG> speaker; it says something like "Help! Somebody! I'm trapped CG> insude this computer!" Eeek I'd forgotten that one :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 25 Oct 03 16:03:05 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <827.428T269T9633318@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> <20031025183721113+1300@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-492.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:153965 In article <20031025183721113+1300@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> roger@ihug.invalid (Roger Johnstone) writes: >A single channel of audio is fairly simple to do, but what really >surprised me was seeing a MOD music player running on an MS-DOS PC about >ten years ago. It was playing back four channels of digitised audio with >an animated display! I have a CP/M program that runs on my IMSAI; it toggles the "interrupts enabled" line fast enough to play three-part harmony through an amplifier if you pick off the signal. It only works on an 8080; the Z-80 doesn't bring out the signal. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Message-ID: <3F9C81D6.91E552E8@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:24:22 +1000 From: Bernie Dwyer Organization: Very Little X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.52.54.150 X-Trace: 1067221470 lon-reader.news.telstra.net 95049 203.52.54.150 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!lon-spool.news.telstra.net!203.50.2.94.MISMATCH!reader.news.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154011 Dave Zook wrote: > > I have a demo diskette for a "Golf" game that produced intelligible speech > using the PC Speaker with no sound card (didn't have sound cards back then). > > The only phrase I remember is "I'll take that." which was clear and even had > expression/intonation. > I recall such a beast - the only line I can remember is: "Looks like he hit the tree, Bob" -- Bernie Dwyer Dump the z to reply to me ***************************** ###### Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 06:52:30 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Message-ID: <20031027065230.5bbd78b3.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <3F9C81D6.91E552E8@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.7 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.9) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Oct 2003 18:00:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0362.nas2-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1067277605 flip.euronet.nl 13864 62.234.213.108:1227 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154035 On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:24:22 +1000 Bernie Dwyer wrote: BD> I recall such a beast - the only line I can remember is: "Looks like BD> he hit the tree, Bob" Yep it's the same one - I hit that tree a lot too :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <3F9C81D6.91E552E8@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <20031027065230.5bbd78b3.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: <20031027065230.5bbd78b3.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s52 1067279150 12.240.77.188 (Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:25:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:25:50 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:25:50 GMT Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!attbi_s52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154036 Approximately 10/26/03 21:52, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:24:22 +1000 > Bernie Dwyer wrote: > > BD> I recall such a beast - the only line I can remember is: "Looks like > BD> he hit the tree, Bob" > > Yep it's the same one - I hit that tree a lot too :) > "...It's on the beach..." -- My governor can kick your governor's ass ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 27 Oct 03 12:52:45 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <794.430T2277T7725194@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <3F9C81D6.91E552E8@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <20031027065230.5bbd78b3.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-644.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154043 In article LonDot.Stowell@ComcastPeriod.Net (Lon Stowell) writes: >Approximately 10/26/03 21:52, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > >> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:24:22 +1000 >> Bernie Dwyer wrote: >> >>> I recall such a beast - the only line I can remember is: "Looks like >>> he hit the tree, Bob" >> >> Yep it's the same one - I hit that tree a lot too :) >> > "...It's on the beach..." ObThreadDrift: "Right in the lumber yard." -- Chevy Chase, _Caddyshack_ -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:49:29 -0600 From: "William" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <20031024071815.3249a00d.steveo@eircom.net> <20031025183721113+1300@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <827.428T269T9633318@kltpzyxm.invalid> Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:50:12 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Trace: sv3-5jT27LROFQ1kqVykJxVwc1iPT0cY+NGQEnr3mc/iGeCtL0Qm1TMuz6YbiB2CFTRVijbc2LzbDEElX2C!e7vgulhsCytwEFFXE8fLL7Fc0bQxLjhTZr4qzG6eUlPio+cAOMfRTfL41tWGNcA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@giganews.com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154085 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:827.428T269T9633318@kltpzyxm.invalid... > In article <20031025183721113+1300@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> > roger@ihug.invalid (Roger Johnstone) writes: > > >A single channel of audio is fairly simple to do, but what really > >surprised me was seeing a MOD music player running on an MS-DOS PC about > >ten years ago. It was playing back four channels of digitised audio with > >an animated display! > > I have a CP/M program that runs on my IMSAI; it toggles the > "interrupts enabled" line fast enough to play three-part harmony > through an amplifier if you pick off the signal. It only works > on an 8080; the Z-80 doesn't bring out the signal. I remember one that played through one of the front panel LEDs (the one that could be controled with an output instruction). You taped a phototransistor to the front panel over the LED and hooked up an amplifier. More amusing was the program that played music through an AM radio placed near the case, thus making RF leakage a feature. -Wm ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: 28 Oct 03 16:06:50 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1335.431T2548T9665581@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-503.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed3.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154104 In article Reply@NewsGroup.Please (William) writes: >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message >news:827.428T269T9633318@kltpzyxm.invalid... > >> I have a CP/M program that runs on my IMSAI; it toggles the >> "interrupts enabled" line fast enough to play three-part harmony >> through an amplifier if you pick off the signal. It only works >> on an 8080; the Z-80 doesn't bring out the signal. > >I remember one that played through one of the front panel LEDs >(the one that could be controled with an output instruction). You >taped a phototransistor to the front panel over the LED and hooked >up an amplifier. It's probably the same program. But I didn't have any phototransistors. I did, however, have a capacitor and an RCA jack, so I picked the signal straight off the bus. >More amusing was the program that played music through an AM >radio placed near the case, thus making RF leakage a feature. Ah, yes... I first saw such a program running on an IBM 1620 in 1967; a few years later I wrote one for the Univac 9300. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What was (is) so beautiful about the Apple ][? Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:14:44 +0000 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3F38A2AB.1077001C@ev1.net> <3f3c7311.47519052@news.ocis.net> <3f3d2ec9.4587201@news.ocis.net> <1fzr3qn.1dp4e2flsvtseN%lars@bearnip.com> <3F3DCABE.12F7ACF7@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> <3F3EE820.A9F3B2AB@ev1.net> <3F9C81D6.91E552E8@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Reply-To: Ben Hutchings NNTP-Posting-Host: cpc1-cmbg1-4-0-cust94.cmbg.cable.ntl.com (62.253.133.94) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1067793305 41374281 62.253.133.94 (16 [70929]) X-Orig-Path: decadentplace.org.uk!nobody User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: redlance.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!cpc1-cmbg1-4-0-cust94.cmbg.cable.ntl.COM!not-for-mail Xref: redlance.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:154272 In article <3F9C81D6.91E552E8@caloundra.qld.gov.au>, Bernie Dwyer wrote: > Dave Zook wrote: >> >> I have a demo diskette for a "Golf" game that produced intelligible >> speech using the PC Speaker with no sound card (didn't have sound >> cards back then). >> >> The only phrase I remember is "I'll take that." which was clear and >> even had expression/intonation. >> > > > I recall such a beast - the only line I can remember is: "Looks like he > hit the tree, Bob" I think it was "you" and not "he". Anyway, the game you're thinking of is Links. It had really nice graphics digitised from real courses. However, on an Amiga 500 it would take 20-30 seconds to render the scene, which made it a bit slow to play. Links was originally written for DOS and AmigaOS but later ported to Windows and published as Microsoft Golf for Windows.