Message-ID: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:11:20 +1000 From: Bernie Dwyer Organization: Very Little X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: post-doomsday computing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.52.54.194 X-Trace: 1056946414 lon-reader.news.telstra.net 59957 203.52.54.194 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!lon-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!lon-spool.news.telstra.net!203.50.2.94.MISMATCH!reader.news.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142914 I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer. SPOILER FOLLOWS Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation back almost to feudalism. It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and analyse information in the future. So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still want to be able to start the machine and use it. How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps? And would it be better to verify and copy^W backup those old Lotus 1-2-3 diskettes? What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use for some time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years (if you haven't got electric power after 5 years, I think you may as well forget all about it!) Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and 1100 amp hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about 50km from the coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably wouldn't be able to fire up the home computer very often. -- Bernie Dwyer Dump the z to reply to me ***************************** ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:30:29 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 61 Message-ID: <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1056965430 28597 80.177.7.220 (30 Jun 2003 09:30:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:30:30 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142908 "Bernie Dwyer" wrote in message news:3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au... [SNIP] > What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use for some > time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years > (if you haven't got electric power after 5 years, I think you may as > well forget all about it!) Hmmm. I think that the requirements need to be assessed properly first. What the hell do you want a computer for ? The first application that comes to mind is archival. The second is entertainment - music is kinda nice if you're having a rough time for example. Sadly I doubt that many machines would really qualify for low power consumption or longevity. A lot of the components used in a modern machine struggle to survive beyond 5 years. If you are talking 5+ years in storage then you run into a whole different problem ... Electrolytic caps degrade fairly swiftly over time and will look like a short circuit if left unused for many years. The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10 years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well I've got a couple of IBM UltraSCSI drives sitting in my server machine that are dated 1996... And they've been in constant use and so far (touch wood) haven't lost any bits... However, I think that such a long life is exceptional, most drives seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark. The kind of machine I'd like would have to be portable (well, luggable at least), have a minimum of moving parts and support at least some read-only media that can last for 30+ years. The components must be rated for 30 years plus, with some kind of manual bootstrap facility. Oh yeah, no NVRAM, no FLASH, no EPROMs, if you need ROM fuse-arrays or something like would be preferable. In terms of silicon processes you'd have to use something fairly old-hat and skip on a lot of the fun stuff like Copper. IBM, thankfully, have done a lot of good research into chip failure modes, it would be worth looking at those and getting your process tuned to it. Oh yeah... The Power Supply... Keep it simple, something like 12V DC (with an AC input option - depending on how your power is delivered ...). Make damn sure that the power supply is heavily protected. It should be able to take a 5kV input and live. :P The net cost of such a device would be astronomical in this day and age. Maybe in the early 90s it would have been easier to put such a beast together, there was less reliance on flash memory for example, and the silicon processes were a lot more conservative... Not to mention that the parts kicked out a lot less heat. Could be worth looking at how they build them satellite widgets that have a life in excess of 20 years. Cheers, Rupert ###### Sender: cjb@brushtail.apana.org.au Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> From: Chris Baird Message-ID: Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-NNTP-Posting-Host: brushtail.apana.org.au Date: 01 Jul 2003 02:11:20 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.102.130.100 X-Trace: nnrp1.ozemail.com.au 1056989501 203.102.130.100 (Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:11:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 02:11:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!nnrp1.ozemail.com.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142947 One of the applications I'd think would insist on continued computer usage is telecommunication-- even 'back to the stone age' communities, using basic radio/morse technology, would see for the benefit of electronic/mechanical systems for compressing, encrypting, encoding, modulating, and demodulating. And if their communication systems where sophisticated enough (not necessarily technologically-- recall the 18th century French? human-semaphore-based "internet") machines and computers would be in demand for a switched-packet network. The telephone system got pretty far on specialized mechanical 'computers'. As for general-purpose computers that would let people code Von Neumann style for centuries to some, Bradford Rodriguez's 'Minimal TTL Processor' could from the looks of it easily have a non-silicon analogue. -- Chris,, ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 30 Jun 03 16:12:42 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 53 Message-ID: <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-487.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143093 In article <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> DougQ@IgLou.com (Douglas H. Quebbeman) writes: >Wow, you really need to stop buying Quantum and Maxtor (or >Connor, etc) drives... > >I have a pair of Seagate ST-251s that still hum along nicely, >although after sitting for several months without power, I >have to remove them, turn them upside down, and rotate the >spindle (which protrudes outside the case and through the >circuit board) with needle-nose pliers... good old stiction... Also, you can go to the Seagate web site and find data sheets for all of their drives, so you can hook them up to whatever you want. I tried that with the Maxtor site, and found that they had followed the modern trend of only providing a few sales blurbs for the latest drives, and no data sheets for anything. Ah, the Web... glorified television, good for nothing but advertising and cheap entertainment. >Also, last time I checked that (IBM-labeled) ST-506 MFM 5MB drive, >it also had not lost any data... ditto the 20MB Seagate in the >Zenith Z-151. Back in those days they hadn't figured out how to make a drive reliably fail at the end of the warranty period, so they had to overbuild them just in case. 1/2 :-) >I have a 30MB Microscience drive that spins up, but I have >yet to get it properly interfaced again to see if it still >has my stuff... > >A Western Digital 31200 (1.2GB 3.5" IDE), one of many, had >ceased spinning up... until this weekend, when I gave it a >good rap on its side whilst applying power... spun right up, >all data intact. Being familiar with stiction (I had a Rodime drive whose housing I had to whack with a screwdriver handle to make it spin up), I had a lot of fun one day when I stopped in at the office where my wife works. They had a Mac that wouldn't come up. I figured out it was stiction and popped the case open. This disturbed the staff enough, but when I gave the lid of the drive a tap with my fingertip while turning on the power, I thought they were going to lynch me. Fortunately, the machine came right up, and consternation was instantly washed away by gratitude. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:23:40 -0400 Lines: 47 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: c005766.customers.cinergycom.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: c005766.customers.cinergycom.net Message-ID: <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1056993821 c005766.customers.cinergycom.net (30 Jun 2003 13:23:41 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.135.61.138 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142985 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message news:1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong... > > Sadly I doubt that many machines would really qualify for low > power consumption or longevity. A lot of the components used > in a modern machine struggle to survive beyond 5 years. If you > are talking 5+ years in storage then you run into a whole > different problem ... Electrolytic caps degrade fairly swiftly > over time and will look like a short circuit if left unused > for many years. The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10 > years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R > media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well > I've got a couple of IBM UltraSCSI drives sitting in my server > machine that are dated 1996... And they've been in constant > use and so far (touch wood) haven't lost any bits... However, > I think that such a long life is exceptional, most drives > seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark. Wow, you really need to stop buying Quantum and Maxtor (or Connor, etc) drives... I have a pair of Seagate ST-251s that still hum along nicely, although after sitting for several months without power, I have to remove them, turn them upside down, and rotate the spindle (which protrudes outside the case and through the circuit board) with needle-nose pliers... good old stiction... Also, last time I checked that (IBM-labeled) ST-506 MFM 5MB drive, it also had not lost any data... ditto the 20MB Seagate in the Zenith Z-151. I have a 30MB Microscience drive that spins up, but I have yet to get it properly interfaced again to see if it still has my stuff... A Western Digital 31200 (1.2GB 3.5" IDE), one of many, had ceased spinning up... until this weekend, when I gave it a good rap on its side whilst applying power... spun right up, all data intact. YMMV, etc... -- -Douglas Hurst Quebbeman (DougQ at ixnayamspayIgLou.com) [Call me 'Doug'] Surgically excise the pig-latin from my e-mail address in order to reply 'The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away.' -Tom Waits ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:16:06 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 92 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1057008663 18595 193.71.197.12 (30 Jun 2003 21:31:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:31:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143211 In article <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com>, Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: >"Rupert Pigott" wrote in message >news:1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong... >> Previous posters mentioned 12V power for long-time use. I would tend to approve. A 12V 100 Ah plain car battery in parallell with the rest of the power supply does wonders as a buffer capacitor and sacrificial anode. >> Sadly I doubt that many machines would really qualify for low >> power consumption or longevity. A lot of the components used >> in a modern machine struggle to survive beyond 5 years. If you >> are talking 5+ years in storage then you run into a whole >> different problem ... Electrolytic caps degrade fairly swiftly >> over time and will look like a short circuit if left unused >> for many years. You can get electrolytic caps rated for 30+ years. But they cost real money. They are a drag to change, but is worth it for a real long-time operation. > The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10 >> years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R >> media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well >> I've got a couple of IBM UltraSCSI drives sitting in my server >> machine that are dated 1996... And they've been in constant >> use and so far (touch wood) haven't lost any bits... However, >> I think that such a long life is exceptional, most drives >> seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark. >Wow, you really need to stop buying Quantum and Maxtor (or >Connor, etc) drives... > >I have a pair of Seagate ST-251s that still hum along nicely, >although after sitting for several months without power, I >have to remove them, turn them upside down, and rotate the >spindle (which protrudes outside the case and through the >circuit board) with needle-nose pliers... good old stiction... Also, for real old hardware that is to be powered down I would mount sacrificial anodes on the negative ground. I have seen a lot of hardware degrade by simple corrosion. >Also, last time I checked that (IBM-labeled) ST-506 MFM 5MB drive, >it also had not lost any data... ditto the 20MB Seagate in the >Zenith Z-151. > >I have a 30MB Microscience drive that spins up, but I have >yet to get it properly interfaced again to see if it still >has my stuff... > >A Western Digital 31200 (1.2GB 3.5" IDE), one of many, had >ceased spinning up... until this weekend, when I gave it a >good rap on its side whilst applying power... spun right up, >all data intact. I gave "lasarus" a spin the other day. Lasarus is a heap of decrepit old hardware a friend and I used to take a look at Linux in 1994. Lasarus was then truly risen from the dead. The motherboard was a first-generation 80386; overclocked for 3-4 years before we reclocked it back to 33 Mhz. Inventive new CPU-cooler. Micropolis drives, 2x110 Mb. It has been in storage for 4 years now; and the BIOS has lost the data. The power is still good, only barely detectable ripples on the DC side. I had to manually enter the BIOS settings, but they are written on the case, so this is not a problem. Linux 1.0.9 a-out came right up. I had to apply power a second time before the stiction on the drives came loose though. Total running time on lasarus is around 8 years out of its physical age of 15 years. I also have a server that has been up and running since 1996. Seagate (not barracuda) SCSI drives, 486 of 1994 vintage. Runs like a charm. We don't have to throw out hardware just because it gets old! Perhaps we should make a competition out of this; design the longest-living server built of stock parts. I would gather that most entries would be classified as "pure junk" by the average peecee junkie of today. Time will be the judge. -- mrr ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:45:45 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr159.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1057009360 12882 209.100.226.159 (30 Jun 2003 21:42:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:42:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143250 On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:23:40 -0400, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: >Wow, you really need to stop buying Quantum and Maxtor (or >Connor, etc) drives... > >I have a pair of Seagate ST-251s that still hum along nicely, >although after sitting for several months without power, I >have to remove them, turn them upside down, and rotate the >spindle (which protrudes outside the case and through the >circuit board) with needle-nose pliers... good old stiction... All I need do, in this situation, is after applying power is to hold the drive in your hand, and give several quick twists, in the same plane as the platter. -- Arargh at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com Basic Compiler Samples Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/basic.html To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. ###### From: Jeffery S. Jones Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:57:23 -0500 Organization: Graphic Reflections and Websites, Inc. Message-ID: Reply-To: jeffsj@execpc.com References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 97 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143251 On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:11:20 +1000, Bernie Dwyer wrote: >I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer. > >SPOILER FOLLOWS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation >back almost to feudalism. > >It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing >facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare >parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is >struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with >neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and >analyse information in the future. Presuming you want to manage a technological rise efficiently, and avoid a quick collapse to true dark ages, I'd definitely want to keep electronic communications and recordkeeping alive. >So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or >whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still >want to be able to start the machine and use it. > >How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have >time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps? CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there is no reason to worry about losing the data. Hard disks will die given time, but a warehouse full of them in sealed storage will give your small scale IT facility decades of operation. Maybe you can't restore technological production within that time frame, but you should be a lot closer to it than if you hadn't maintained working systems -- and people trained to learn from them and use them. >And would it be better to verify and copy^W backup those old Lotus 1-2-3 >diskettes? >What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use for some >time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years >(if you haven't got electric power after 5 years, I think you may as >well forget all about it!) > >Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and 1100 amp >hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about 50km from the >coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably wouldn't be able to >fire up the home computer very often. While it didn't happen in Lucifer's Hammer, I think that in our current real world, satellite net would be used to link technological recovery centers, and share archives and information. By far, the power of computers for communication is their greatest advantage. Being able to use a post-doomsday internet for tech support would alleviate a lot of the problems. Electrical generators are buildable, hydro power workable in places, there are solutions. Of course, the book showed one really big downside: other people. Maintaining your own enclave on its own shouldn't be terribly hard. Defending it from those who'd steal it would be, and a conflict which destroys the nice stockpiles of material and experts needed to effectively use it would quickly make any solitary efforts at sustaining a small island of high tech a fatal attraction. -- *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-* ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 *Starfire Design Studio* ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: howard@brazee.net Reply-To: howard@brazee.net References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Newsreader: News Rover 8.2.2 (http://www.NewsRover.com) Lines: 1 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:07:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.100.14.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1057010824 67.100.14.186 (Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:07:04 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:07:04 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-pas-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143022 My favorite post-doomsday computers were those from _Empire of the East_. ###### From: "philo" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:07:07 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143157 "Bernie Dwyer" wrote in message news:3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au... > I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer. > > Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation > back almost to feudalism. >snipped< lot of worrying about nothing... for my whole life all i;ve heard is that "the whole world is about to be destroyed" by some catastrophie yet half the time, it never happens anyway... maybe you could record data using clay tablets ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: Andrew McLaren References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Organization: not much Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-stickybeak: Are you reading my headers? Date: 30 Jun 2003 23:14:33 GMT Lines: 67 NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.28.71.136 X-Trace: 1057014873 5973 211.28.71.136 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143149 Jerry Pounelle?? I'm sorry, but Jerry Pournelle single-handedly did more to make Byte magazine a waste of paper than any other so-called "technology" writer. Jerry Pournelle never wrote a wise or interesting thing. Anyway, back in the Real World, things are moving in the other direction. While some first-world crackpots embrace post-apocalyptic fantasies, Nuie (a small island-nation in the South Pacific) has just installed a complete, island-wide wireless network. The whole country is a "Wi-Fi hotspot". See http://www.smh.com.au/text/articles/2003/06/29/1056825280193.htm Going online, via the coconut trees Date: June 30 2003 Until a few years ago telecommunications on the Pacific island of Niue consisted of a few hand-cranked telephones. This week the tiny country is introducing the world's most sophisticated national internet service. The 260-square-kilometre lump of coral about 4000 kilometres north-east of Sydney is to become the first country in the world to have a nationwide wireless internet system. Locals with a laptop and an aerial will be able to surf the net at home, on the beach, in a restaurant, or from a boat. Wireless internet has been the holy grail of telecommunications for years. Internationally the system is found, albeit still quite rarely, on WAP and 3G mobile phones. Niue, however, says the island's Internet Users' Society, will soon enjoy a free wireless service almost as fast as a typical broadband connection. The society will hang solar-powered aerials from coconut palms to bring the internet to the island's population of 1700 in the coming months. "Copper wires corrode too quickly and easily get knocked out by lightning strikes," said the society's Richard Saint Clair. "We're better off doing without them altogether." Emigration has caused a population slump on Niue. In 1991 there were just 376 telephone lines in use, but now Niueans send up to 30,000 emails a week and spend 6000 hours online a month. The internet society grew under the tutelage of William Semich, an American computing journalist. The technology being adopted is identical to the wireless internet available in big cities around the world. The difference on Niue is that the system is free for public use. Its only potential problem is that it depends on a satellite link to sites not based on the island. "If someone tried to download a big document from somewhere else, it would probably block up the whole network," Semich said. Much of the island's web investment has been made possible by selling rights to use its .nu domain name. Tens of thousands of companies worldwide have paid $US30 ($45) each to include the suffix in their internet addresses. (C) The Guardian This material is subject to copyright and any unauthorised use, copying or mirroring is prohibited. (reporduced here without permission) Cheers Andrew ###### From: Conrad Hodson Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:37:32 -0700 Organization: Oregon Public Networking Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: garcia.efn.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.efn.org!garcia.efn.org!conradh Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143198 On 30 Jun 2003, Michael Black wrote: > Some nonths back I read S.M. Stirling's trilogy about Nantucket Island > being sent back to the Bronze Age. The first book is titled "Island > in the Sea of Time". > > To some extent, it reads like similar books where someone from the > present is somehow sent back in time, and tries to apply present day > knowledge and technology to that era. But those tend to be lone travellers, > without much from the present time. In this trilogy, they've got the > whole island, and all that was on it. So yes, they had computers, > and some generators to run them, along with plenty of things that weren't > practical but could be stripped for other things. > > They did mothball most of the computers, because the power wasn't there > to run them and because they were likely to be something they couldn't > duplicate for a long time. > > But one thing they did use a computer for was running CAD software > for shipbuilding. I thought that was intriguing, since it allowed > them to build far better ships using available supplies. > IIRC, they also used the one at the observatory to generate navigational tables appropriate to the years they found themselves in. They had sextants and people who knew astronavigation, but a time shift of three thousand years made most of their existing tables useless. This kind of heavy number-crunching would be a good use for the machines while they lasted. Wasn't one of Babbage's computing goals something to do with the calculation of tide tables? Besides navigation, it might be worth making up engineering and math tables in hard copy for any fields that don't happen to be covered in local reference books. The first such tables were done with slates and dip pens, of course, but it's a hell of a lot easier with a computer, and a lasting benefit even if you have to make future copies with the dip pen. Conrad Hodson ###### From: stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 1 Jul 2003 01:09:59 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: rohan.sdsu.edu X-Trace: gondor.sdsu.edu 1057021799 1867 130.191.3.100 (1 Jul 2003 01:09:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@newshub.sdsu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2003 01:09:59 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000123 ("Polish") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143005 begin quoting Charlie Gibbs : [snip] > my wife works. They had a Mac that wouldn't come up. I figured > out it was stiction and popped the case open. This disturbed > the staff enough, but when I gave the lid of the drive a tap > with my fingertip while turning on the power, I thought they > were going to lynch me. Fortunately, the machine came right > up, and consternation was instantly washed away by gratitude. I knew a guy that was convinced he was an 'experience layman' w/r to computers. So he purchased some RAM (DIMMS, IIRC), and he removed the cover to his machine, and inserted the RAM. (This was an IBM PC...) Naturally, he didn't turn off the machine first. He had programs running that he didn't want to quit. Naturally, he reversed the memory, and was trying to get 'em to seat 180 degrees out. He had to 'apply a bit of force' to get 'em to seat -- and lo, he *did*. Sorta. Naturally his computer didn't work afterwards. This did not stop him from offering to "fix" his gf's Mac. How do you distinguish between your example, where a knowledgeable person does something apparently dangerous, and mine, when a confident person says that he knows what he's doing, but doesn't? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Be Continued.... Stewart Stremler ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 19:10:49 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143152 > Much of the island [Niue]'s web investment has been made possible > by selling rights to use its .nu domain name. Tens of thousands of > companies worldwide have paid $US30 ($45) each to include the suffix > in their internet addresses. I feel like such a philanthropist. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### Message-ID: <3F01037C.A20D77BB@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:43:56 +1000 From: Bernie Dwyer Organization: Very Little X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.52.54.194 X-Trace: 1057030861 lon-reader.news.telstra.net 59957 203.52.54.194 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!elnk-atl-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!lon-spool.news.telstra.net!203.50.2.94.MISMATCH!reader.news.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143105 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > Hmmm. I think that the requirements need to be assessed properly > first. What the hell do you want a computer for ? > > The first application that comes to mind is archival. It occurred to me that recording my production (crops, animals) and consumption details in a database or spreadsheet would provide much useful information in the future, e.g. comparison of yields/hectare for different crops, etc, although that can be done on paper, of course. > The second is entertainment - music is kinda nice if you're having > a rough time for example. That wasn't one my objectives, but it would be "nice to have". > > > Cheers, > Rupert -- Bernie Dwyer Dump the z to reply to me ***************************** ###### From: economic_refugee@yahoo.com (E.R.) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 30 Jun 2003 21:20:09 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.103.202.153 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1057033210 27784 127.0.0.1 (1 Jul 2003 04:20:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2003 04:20:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143182 Bernie Dwyer wrote in message news:<3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au>... > I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer. > > > It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing > facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare > parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is > struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with > neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and > analyse information in the future. > > So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or > whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still > want to be able to start the machine and use it. Whoa. Stop right there. If you're _serious_ about preserving your ability to use computers, -Don't use a typical intel PC. Get quality parts, rated for reliability. Get spares. Get a lot of spares for the spares. -Better still, learn UNIX. You're more likely to bump into legacy systems (and what won't be a legacy system after the Fall?) that run a UNIXy variant than Windows. Systems that should last longer will be in sealed data centers and (IMHO) most of THOSE are "unix". And if you DO scavenge a 'windows' machine, people who know UNIX can learn Windows easier than the other way around. -By a "UNIX" workstation. I've never seen an Intel PC last longer than 5 years before turning into junk. OTOH, Sun machines 10 years old and still running are not uncommon. ~er ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:26:01 -0500 Message-ID: <3F010D71.11BD72A0@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:26:25 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-vfak3YPqBAqS6QDKAcY31ac2Xd1R/yMLMOZqivbOD7wl1lLlm7iGudWfYRE+85JRdFan9iXQnTSpa5H!1Y9fuLxs9II6ctzkX2YNF6JM+RP7pYVA+c65zttKkPB+hkf65zQ692uiOpFESwPxEVQIdpzfNx4g!Bsng X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142972 "E.R." wrote: > -By a "UNIX" workstation. I've never seen an Intel PC last longer > than 5 years before turning into junk. OTOH, Sun machines 10 years > old and still running are not uncommon. And a functional 10 year old machine is peanuts! Finding a Sun that still runs after 10 years is quite easy. The only parts likely to fail are the NRAM chip which are usually trivial to replace (and not required to run; they just remember information about the machine when you turn it off, you can always manually enter it via OpenBoot), and the obvious situation of hard drives. I was thinking about this as I saw the thread flashing by. I just got a hold of an old Sparc IPX from 1993 and it runs fine with a replacement NVRAM chip. Even the original hard disk works fine. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ I don't like principles. I prefer prejudices. \__/ Oscar Wilde ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 01:38:12 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1fxe6ld.ib92ywqsnnvnN%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057037892 19035 166.84.199.79 (1 Jul 2003 05:38:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 05:38:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!uio.no!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143186 Andrew McLaren wrote: > Jerry Pounelle?? I'm sorry, but Jerry Pournelle single-handedly did more > to make Byte magazine a waste of paper than any other so-called > "technology" writer. Jerry Pournelle never wrote a wise or interesting > thing. That wasn't the point. The point was that to get favorable postal rates publications must have a certain percentage of "editorial content." Which he provided. I'm sure they paid him at that level so that if he had anything worth saying he said it somewhere else. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:46:08 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030701074608.3e5eb1db.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Jul 2003 17:00:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p0250.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1057078809 willi.euronet.nl 45370 62.234.198.250:1872 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143155 On 1 Jul 2003 01:09:59 GMT stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote: SSE> How do you distinguish between your example, where a knowledgeable SSE> person does something apparently dangerous, and mine, when a SSE> confident person says that he knows what he's doing, but doesn't? Results, preferably prior ones. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F014665.D69E0BE8@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1057041153 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 01 Jul 2003 06:32:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 06:32:33 GMT Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 06:32:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143226 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Being familiar with stiction (I had a Rodime drive whose housing > I had to whack with a screwdriver handle to make it spin up), I > had a lot of fun one day when I stopped in at the office where > my wife works. They had a Mac that wouldn't come up. I figured > out it was stiction and popped the case open. This disturbed > the staff enough, but when I gave the lid of the drive a tap > with my fingertip while turning on the power, I thought they > were going to lynch me. Fortunately, the machine came right > up, and consternation was instantly washed away by gratitude. > Those who have little computer knowledge are very superstitious and primative when it comes to dealing with the machines. They are ready to worship the successful witch doctor, but the person who fails has bad "mojo" and the mob mentality will burn him at the stake to drive out the demons. I have seen secretaries who insist that there is only *one* way to do something with a word processor...and that is the way that *they* do it. Anything else is blasphemy. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Sender: dowe@krikkit.localhost Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> From: Dowe Keller Date: 01 Jul 2003 01:10:39 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63-93-78-228.lsan.sti.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 63-93-78-228.lsan.sti.net X-Trace: news.sti.net 1057046840 63.93.78.228 (1 Jul 2003 01:07:20 -0700) Organization: news.sti.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sti.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143138 "philo" writes: > maybe you could record data using clay tablets Nah, clay tablets, while they don't require ink, tend to gum up the print mechanism. -- dowe@sierratel.com http://www.sierratel.com/dowe And the Lord told adm ``Run any programs you want, but stay away from emacs, because if thou runneth it the system shall surely die''. ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Message-ID: <0fhrdb.ep3.ln@acer> Lines: 82 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:41:04 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.111.136.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1057053604 80.111.136.96 (Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:00:04 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:00:04 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143210 In article , Jeffery S. Jones wrote: >On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:11:20 +1000, Bernie Dwyer > wrote: >>Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation >>back almost to feudalism. >> >>It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing >>facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare >>parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is >>struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with >>neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and >>analyse information in the future. > > Presuming you want to manage a technological rise efficiently, and >avoid a quick collapse to true dark ages, I'd definitely want to keep >electronic communications and recordkeeping alive. > >>So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or >>whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still >>want to be able to start the machine and use it. >> >>How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have >>time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps? > > CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage >times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there is >no reason to worry about losing the data. > > Hard disks will die given time, but a warehouse full of them in >sealed storage will give your small scale IT facility decades of >operation. Maybe you can't restore technological production within >that time frame, but you should be a lot closer to it than if you >hadn't maintained working systems -- and people trained to learn from >them and use them. Decades is a short timeframe in such a respect. The world took around two centuries to readjust after the fall of the roman empire. This will take longer. > >>And would it be better to verify and copy^W backup those old Lotus 1-2-3 >>diskettes? >>What's the best way to preserve hardware that you might not use for some >>time, but you want to be able to use it say in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years >>(if you haven't got electric power after 5 years, I think you may as >>well forget all about it!) >> >>Personally, I'm off-grid with 1.6 kilowatts of solar panels and 1100 amp >>hours of batteries at 450 meters above sea level, about 50km from the >>coast. I *should* survive food-wise, but I probably wouldn't be able to >>fire up the home computer very often. 1.6 kW of solar panels should give you enough to live on with a computer. I manage to run one at 12-18 watts; but that is as low as I could get. > While it didn't happen in Lucifer's Hammer, I think that in our >current real world, satellite net would be used to link technological >recovery centers, and share archives and information. By far, the >power of computers for communication is their greatest advantage. >Being able to use a post-doomsday internet for tech support would >alleviate a lot of the problems. Satellites requires an industrial society to support them. Use radio instead. > Electrical generators are buildable, hydro power workable in places, >there are solutions. I agree that electricity generation should be doable, but not in large quantities. > Of course, the book showed one really big downside: other people. >Maintaining your own enclave on its own shouldn't be terribly hard. >Defending it from those who'd steal it would be, and a conflict which >destroys the nice stockpiles of material and experts needed to >effectively use it would quickly make any solitary efforts at >sustaining a small island of high tech a fatal attraction. That was the experience of the librarians of Alexandria as well. -- mrr ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:47:04 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 48 Message-ID: <1057052824.355746@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057052825 27028 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 09:47:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:47:05 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143069 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote in message news:3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com... > "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message > news:1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong... [SNIP] > > I think that such a long life is exceptional, most drives > > seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark. > > Wow, you really need to stop buying Quantum and Maxtor (or > Connor, etc) drives... Ugh, hate them. My first IDE drive was an ALPS Electric, a license built Connor... I should have said most "modern" drives seem to fail at the 3-5 years mark. Your experiences mirror my own, a lot of the surviving early hard drives seem to be able to keep bits, but think of all the ones which have been put into the skip, possibly because they are dropping bits. [SNIP] > A Western Digital 31200 (1.2GB 3.5" IDE), one of many, had > ceased spinning up... until this weekend, when I gave it a > good rap on its side whilst applying power... spun right up, > all data intact. My WDC 31200 started losing bits wholesale after 2.5 years of fairly light usage. The boot sectors gave it trouble, which I rather naively thought it might be able to relocate... For the record I've have only bought IBM, Western Digital and Fujitsu drives. The WDC drives and Fuji drives all failed due to bit loss, the longest survivor was the 31200 funnily enough. The IBM ones have not failed yet and are the oldest drives I have (also the largest and fastest from that era too). This time around I'm trying a Seagate, although I have had some issues with Seagate SCSI's at PPOEs (overheating at a mere 35C ambient - nothing taking the machine's kit off and blasting a deskfan into it couldn't cure). Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:59:51 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 41 Message-ID: <1057053591.180662@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057053591 4246 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 09:59:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 09:59:51 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!seven.news.surf.net!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!skynet.be!skynet.be!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143066 "Chris Baird" wrote in message news:ufy8zjtujb.fsf@brushtail.apana.org.au... > One of the applications I'd think would insist on continued computer > usage is telecommunication-- even 'back to the stone age' communities, > using basic radio/morse technology, would see for the benefit of > electronic/mechanical systems for compressing, encrypting, encoding, > modulating, and demodulating. Hmm, I think I'd say Wireless was a good option, but you'd be at the mercy of people not trashing the airwaves with junk. :) Buried cables and cables on poles are likely to be toast within a couple of days. In the area I visited in South Africa they had to use radio telephones. The telephone cables were stripped from the poles the day they were put up. Apparently they used to just tie one end to the back of a pickup, drive along, when they had enough they'd just coil it up and dump it in the back. High quality copper cable was cheap around there though... :) > And if their communication systems where sophisticated enough (not > necessarily technologically-- recall the 18th century French? > human-semaphore-based "internet") machines and computers would be in > demand for a switched-packet network. The telephone system got pretty > far on specialized mechanical 'computers'. > > As for general-purpose computers that would let people code Von > Neumann style for centuries to some, Bradford Rodriguez's 'Minimal TTL > Processor' could from the looks of it easily have a non-silicon > analogue. I suspect that a lot of the information we think of as useful, would be pretty useless for 20-50 years after a collapse like that. Stuff like A-Level maths, chemistry and physics would be good things to keep alive, and they come in fairly concise books. No power necessary ! :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:02:56 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1057053777.233839@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057053777 4601 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 10:02:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:02:57 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143073 "Michael Black" wrote in message news:bdppgh$9il$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... [SNIP] > sucha book, I shudder at the waste. One may not need > a computer for the immediate, but it is something that won't be coming > back for an awful long time, and they, like books, need to be preserved Come to think of it some components wouldn't necessarily be that difficult to make if you've got wire... Valves for instance, they might not last very long though ! At a very hard push core might be doable too. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:07:03 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 76 Message-ID: <1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057054024 27210 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 10:07:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:07:04 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143055 "Jeffery S. Jones" wrote in message news:v1c1gvon0cg4tseiuq1uugh2d4kaggrjdq@4ax.com... > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:11:20 +1000, Bernie Dwyer > wrote: > > >I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer. > > > >SPOILER FOLLOWS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Briefly, the earth suffers multiple comet strikes, driving civilisation > >back almost to feudalism. > > > >It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing > >facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare > >parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is > >struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with > >neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and > >analyse information in the future. > > Presuming you want to manage a technological rise efficiently, and > avoid a quick collapse to true dark ages, I'd definitely want to keep > electronic communications and recordkeeping alive. > > >So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or > >whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still > >want to be able to start the machine and use it. > > > >How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have > >time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps? > > CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage > times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there is > no reason to worry about losing the data. Err, they are tested in practice.Audio-CDs for instance... Mine are flaking out at around the 15 year mark due to use and poor delamination. The majority of te CD-R and CD-RW media I've used is rated at ~3 years max, and a number of people I know have commented on bit loss happening on the ones they've recorded around 3 years ago... > Hard disks will die given time, but a warehouse full of them in > sealed storage will give your small scale IT facility decades of > operation. Maybe you can't restore technological production within The capacitors and flash memories used in modern hardrives will most likely fail before the decade mark (for Electrolytics much quicker). Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 11:10:47 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 43 Message-ID: <1057054247.81776@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057054247 14118 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 10:10:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:10:47 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143057 "E.R." wrote in message news:a11b144e.0306302020.22e57e17@posting.google.com... > Bernie Dwyer wrote in message news:<3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au>... > > I've just finished reading the Niven/Pournelle novel "Lucifer's Hammer. > > > > > > > It got me wondering about how to preserve electronic computing > > facilities for a time when there would be little or no service or spare > > parts. Perhaps there would not much use for a computer when one is > > struggling to grow enough food to feed yourself + family (+ sharing with > > neighbours?), but I'd sure like to have the ability to organise and > > analyse information in the future. > > > > So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or > > whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still > > want to be able to start the machine and use it. > > Whoa. Stop right there. If you're _serious_ about preserving your > ability to use computers, > > -Don't use a typical intel PC. Get quality parts, rated for > reliability. Get spares. Get a lot of spares for the spares. Oh yeah... And don't forget to stock up on soldering irons, solder, flux, long nosed pliers and a big pile of REALLY good oscilloscopes. Don't forget the passive components either, coming up with a stable 5Mohm resistor when all you've got in the larder could be tricky. :) [SNIP] > -By a "UNIX" workstation. I've never seen an Intel PC last longer > than 5 years before turning into junk. OTOH, Sun machines 10 years > old and still running are not uncommon. They bloody are uncommon ! :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Wolfgang Schwanke Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 12:55:26 +0200 Organization: disorganised Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Reply-To: usenet20030501@wschwanke.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.eusc.inter.net 1057058037 29350 217.231.137.94 (1 Jul 2003 11:13:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eusc.inter.net User-Agent: Xnews/06.02.15 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!eusc.inter.net!news.eusc.inter.net!wschwanke.de!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142995 Bernie Dwyer wrote in news:3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au: > So, take your typical intel PC (preferably 10 or more of them), or > whatever you have handy. Hard disks will eventually die, but you still > want to be able to start the machine and use it. > > How many bootable tapes/diskettes/CDs will you make (assuming you have > time to do so)? How many copies of your favourite apps? I guess among these choices, the harddisk still has the best chance of survival. Pressed CDs will be fine, but since you say "make" CDs, that implies CD-Rs. They don't last too long, neither do diskettes. But the first thing to run out will be the cartridges for those inkjet printers, of course. Better get a needle printer to mothball! Regards -- Puisqu'il faut choisir, à mots doux je peux le dire http://www.wschwanke.de/ ###### From: Wolfgang Schwanke Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:05:31 +0200 Organization: disorganised Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong> Reply-To: usenet20030501@wschwanke.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.eusc.inter.net 1057058038 29350 217.231.137.94 (1 Jul 2003 11:13:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eusc.inter.net User-Agent: Xnews/06.02.15 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!eusc.inter.net!news.eusc.inter.net!wschwanke.de!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142997 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in news:1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong: > "Jeffery S. Jones" wrote in message > news:v1c1gvon0cg4tseiuq1uugh2d4kaggrjdq@4ax.com... >> CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage >> times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there >> is no reason to worry about losing the data. > > Err, they are tested in practice.Audio-CDs for instance... Mine are > flaking out at around the 15 year mark due to use and poor > delamination. Strange. My oldest audio CDs are 20 years, and they're all fine. There was a batch of bad disks back in the 80s that degraded quickly because of some aggressive ink used, which was reported widely in the press at the time, and some untrue conclusions about "CD longevity" were drawn from it. Most of the "CD rot" rumours you still hear today are really an after-effect of this story. In general, pressed CDs _don't_ rot. They last decades (we don't know how many yet, but certainly many). Bad production batches may still occurr, of course. > The majority of te CD-R and CD-RW media I've used is > rated at ~3 years max, and a number of people I know have commented > on bit loss happening on the ones they've recorded around 3 years > ago... CD-R(W)s are a different cup of tea, they degrade rather quickly. But pressed and recordable CDs are two completely different animals. Since the OP was apparently taking about CD-Rs, your point is valid. But the bit about 15 year old audio CDs is not, since they must be pressed ones. Regards -- Puisqu'il faut choisir, à mots doux je peux le dire http://www.wschwanke.de/ ###### From: Wolfgang Schwanke Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:14:44 +0200 Organization: disorganised Lines: 46 Message-ID: <4fqrdb.6m.ln@wschwanke.de> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Reply-To: usenet20030501@wschwanke.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.eusc.inter.net 1057058038 29350 217.231.137.94 (1 Jul 2003 11:13:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eusc.inter.net User-Agent: Xnews/06.02.15 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news.eusc.inter.net!wschwanke.de!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142991 economic_refugee@yahoo.com (E.R.) wrote in news:a11b144e.0306302020.22e57e17@posting.google.com: > -Don't use a typical intel PC. Get quality parts, rated for > reliability. Get spares. Get a lot of spares for the spares. That may be a question of economics. > -Better still, learn UNIX. You're more likely to bump into legacy > systems (and what won't be a legacy system after the Fall?) that run a > UNIXy variant than Windows. Systems that should last longer will be > in sealed data centers and (IMHO) most of THOSE are "unix". Alternatively, you can run Unix on the Intel PC. > And if you DO scavenge a 'windows' machine, people who know UNIX can > learn Windows easier than the other way around. That is not my experience. Those clumsy mouse operations can really unnerve some who're used to CLIs. :) > -By a "UNIX" workstation. I've never seen an Intel PC last longer > than 5 years before turning into junk. YKMV (*) I'm currently sitting next to an 8 year old 486 running as file server under Linux and a 12 year old 386 running as DSL router under Linux. The machine I'm typing on is a 1 year old P4/Winderz though. > OTOH, Sun machines 10 years > old and still running are not uncommon. YKMV OTOH I know of som Sun machines who didn't last longer than 5 years as 24/24 web servers. Regards (*) your kilometrage may vary :) -- Puisqu'il faut choisir, à mots doux je peux le dire http://www.wschwanke.de/ ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:20:30 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <1057052824.355746@saucer.planet.gong> User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143160 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > For the record I've have only bought IBM, Western Digital and > Fujitsu drives. The WDC drives and Fuji drives all failed due > to bit loss, the longest survivor was the 31200 funnily enough. > I've used IBM before, but I was totally soured on them by a 120-gig Deskstar I bought last year - did nothing useful, only rattled its heads around after spinning up. Then I discovered the 'click of death' wasn't an uncommon problem with them,... My fileserver at home has two Maxtors and a Seagate on it, my home XP system a Maxtor, and all my Sun and SGI boxes Seagates. Neither Maxtor nor Seagate have ever let me down. The worst batch of drives I ever came across were a bunch of 100Mb NEC IDE drives - just before NEC got out of the drive market. Of 17 of them, I think 11-12 develped faults within a month; replacement with Seagate did the trick. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: Andrew McLaren References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1fxe6ld.ib92ywqsnnvnN%proto@panix.com> Organization: not much Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-stickybeak: Are you reading my headers? Date: 01 Jul 2003 11:27:46 GMT Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 211.28.71.136 X-Trace: 1057058866 8262 211.28.71.136 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143146 Walter Bushell wrote: > That wasn't the point. The point was that to get favorable postal rates > publications must have a certain percentage of "editorial content." Ah hah! Okay. Thanks, that explains a lot. Good to know there's a rational explanation. Cheers Andrew ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:05:52 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1057064752.864454@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <1057052824.355746@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057064753 19525 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 13:05:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:05:53 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143071 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:vg2rju9kdomc0c@corp.supernews.com... > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > > For the record I've have only bought IBM, Western Digital and > > Fujitsu drives. The WDC drives and Fuji drives all failed due > > to bit loss, the longest survivor was the 31200 funnily enough. > > > > I've used IBM before, but I was totally soured on them by a 120-gig > Deskstar I bought last year - did nothing useful, only rattled its > heads around after spinning up. Then I discovered the 'click of > death' wasn't an uncommon problem with them,... Must admit I was rather surprised by that cock-up. IBM's gear had always far exceeded my expectations in terms of price (good and bad), performance and reliability... IIRC shortly after they completed a deal to offload their consumer HDD division... Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:11:31 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 53 Message-ID: <1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1057065091 25707 80.177.7.220 (1 Jul 2003 13:11:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:11:31 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143064 "Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message news:rtprdb.6m.ln@wschwanke.de... > "Rupert Pigott" wrote in > news:1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong: > > > "Jeffery S. Jones" wrote in message > > news:v1c1gvon0cg4tseiuq1uugh2d4kaggrjdq@4ax.com... > >> CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage > >> times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there > >> is no reason to worry about losing the data. > > > > Err, they are tested in practice.Audio-CDs for instance... Mine are > > flaking out at around the 15 year mark due to use and poor > > delamination. > > Strange. My oldest audio CDs are 20 years, and they're all fine. There was > a batch of bad disks back in the 80s that degraded quickly because of some > aggressive ink used, which was reported widely in the press at the time, This ain't ink. They are coming unstuck. :) [SNIP] > > The majority of te CD-R and CD-RW media I've used is > > rated at ~3 years max, and a number of people I know have commented > > on bit loss happening on the ones they've recorded around 3 years > > ago... > > CD-R(W)s are a different cup of tea, they degrade rather quickly. > But pressed and recordable CDs are two completely different animals. > > Since the OP was apparently taking about CD-Rs, your point is valid. But > the bit about 15 year old audio CDs is not, since they must be pressed > ones. Err, some of my CDs really are delaminating. They are in the CD rack in the other room, I can show you if you like... Perhaps that is not common, but you are very dependant on the manufacturer and it would be too late to find out that the process fucked up 10 years after an apocalypse has taken place. I do wonder if anyone has produced CDs (in small runs) with more exotic materials, such as glass instead of plastic. To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape. Um, and keep the cats away from it too just in case they decide to play with it. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 1 Jul 2003 16:00:35 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F014665.D69E0BE8@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rohan.sdsu.edu X-Trace: gondor.sdsu.edu 1057075235 21519 130.191.3.100 (1 Jul 2003 16:00:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@newshub.sdsu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2003 16:00:35 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000123 ("Polish") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143004 begin quoting Charles Richmond : [snip] > I have seen secretaries who insist that there is only *one* way > to do something with a word processor...and that is the way that > *they* do it. Anything else is blasphemy. This attitude is more widespread than you'd think. Especially among the nominally technical types. All the world is $X, for some value of X. -- Stewart Stremler stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The goal is to make sure that all 10 digits are relevant to common, everyday, tasks like reorganizing your music stuff. -- Peter Seebach (December 1999) ###### From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:06:17 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA Lines: 19 Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com X-Trace: pcls4.std.com 1057086377 13625 199.172.62.241 (1 Jul 2003 19:06:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@TheWorld.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:06:17 +0000 (UTC) X-no-archive: no X-no-markup: yes Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!nntp.TheWorld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:142986 In article <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong>, Rupert Pigott wrote: >"Bernie Dwyer" wrote in message >news:3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au... >[SNIP] > >for many years. The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10 >years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R >media is rated at 3 years tops. The hard drives ... Hmmm, well Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this, darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought. -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "Mundus Vult Decipi" | ("The world wants to be deceived") | --James Branch Cabell ###### From: "Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 05:56:15 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.138.79.187 X-Trace: newsfeeds.bigpond.com 1057088869 144.138.79.187 (Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:47:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:47:49 EST Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder2.hal-mli.net!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!lon-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!newsfeeds.bigpond.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143165 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message news:bdsn1m$10g7ua$1@ID-137880.news.dfncis.de... > "Paul Ciszek" wrote: > > Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic > > tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this, > > darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical > > storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought. > > Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best > you can get is an active system which continuously > repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds > of the error detection / correction system to handle > them). > > My field of work is in Record Management systems. Even microfilm can degrade. The earlier silver nitrate based ones not only degrade, but could do so explosively! Microfilm standards now dictate three copies. One is the working copy to be used as required. The second copy gets used to make new working copies. The third one is locked in the aircon vault, sealed and only to be ever used if all other copies are destroyed. On another note, we have now reached an era where the records of the time (ie electronic) cant be read by future generations without knowledge of the current technology. Even microfilm can be read (if it survives) without knowledge of the way it was made. Adobe files on a CD or hard disk would take a lot more effort to read, even assuming the hard disk worked or the CD hadn't degraded. Andrew ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:13:04 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057101186 8782 166.84.199.79 (1 Jul 2003 23:13:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:13:06 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.cwix.com!insomnia!newsfeed.cwix.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143203 Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Paul Ciszek" wrote: > > Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic > > tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this, > > darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical > > storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought. > > Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best > you can get is an active system which continuously > repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds > of the error detection / correction system to handle > them). Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 02 Jul 03 12:37:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong> <1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb9Z+6fHy18x/uxutoZ8Oc1LlqWljCCmukLTj+bRDRF2lBr7lcQcWzq X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2003 14:43:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-234-150 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143277 In article <1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong>, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message >news:rtprdb.6m.ln@wschwanke.de... >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote in >> news:1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong: >> >> > "Jeffery S. Jones" wrote in message >> > news:v1c1gvon0cg4tseiuq1uugh2d4kaggrjdq@4ax.com... >> >> CDROMs are fairly easy to copy and store, with archival storage >> >> times of decades. Not tested in practice yet, but in theory, there >> >> is no reason to worry about losing the data. >I do wonder if anyone has produced CDs (in small runs) with more >exotic materials, such as glass instead of plastic. > >To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really >wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape. Be careful. My mice ate my fiche (if you're talking about mylar). >Um, and keep the cats away from it too just in case they decide >to play with it. And those ants that like to live in computers. Or is that a folklore? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 02 Jul 03 12:39:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong> <1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZhdYPlx/JiI9fg+AjuUKLFW7Yc6Y1WgRJ3BzEHs7WOS7iTRCH9Qs1t X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2003 14:45:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-234-150 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143278 In article , Wolfgang Schwanke wrote: >"Rupert Pigott" wrote in >news:1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong: >I don't know that, but some people have come up with vinyl records made of >some recycled organic material. I think something based on wood?). And of >course the novelty records made of chocolate. If it's organic, it isn't long-lived. Something will eat it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 02 Jul 03 12:43:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYua3WrhJEKQpxuek7f4prYu2GEUQDjg2Oz8LqztwCD0MQQubSzL7A/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jul 2003 14:49:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-234-150 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143282 In article <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com>, proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: >Christopher M. Jones wrote: > >> "Paul Ciszek" wrote: >> > Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic >> > tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this, >> > darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical >> > storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought. >> >> Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best >> you can get is an active system which continuously >> repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds >> of the error detection / correction system to handle >> them). > >Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well. That only works for certain classes of information. I just finished reading a book on ancient technology and archaeologists have a difficult time trying to figure out how some stuff was made because the only record they had was a picture on a vase so the dimensional relationships of the parts are skewed convexly. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Wolfgang Schwanke Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 04:25:48 +0200 Organization: disorganised Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong> <1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong> Reply-To: usenet20030501@wschwanke.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.eusc.inter.net 1057112679 19632 217.231.137.94 (2 Jul 2003 02:24:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eusc.inter.net User-Agent: Xnews/06.02.15 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!eusc.inter.net!news.eusc.inter.net!wschwanke.de!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143279 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in news:1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong: > This ain't ink. They are coming unstuck. :) Oh :) > I do wonder if anyone has produced CDs (in small runs) with more > exotic materials, such as glass instead of plastic. I don't know that, but some people have come up with vinyl records made of some recycled organic material. I think something based on wood?). And of course the novelty records made of chocolate. > To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really > wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape. How much could an IBM punch card hold? Was it 80 bytes? The data of a CD would fit on a mere 8 million cards. Just a couple of tons. Funny you should mention mice. I hade a wild mouse in my flat once who liked to eat paper (and chocolate). But it was very respectful and only ate paper that I didn't care about, like worthless wrappings and such. It didn't touch the maps, books and computer printouts I cared about. So I was respectful to it too and decided to catch it alive in order to let him/her free. Which proved to be an intelligence test all by itself, that mouse wasn't dumb and knew how to trick humans. Regards -- Puisqu'il faut choisir, à mots doux je peux le dire http://www.wschwanke.de/ ###### From: "Ash Wyllie" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 02 Jul 03 23:03:11 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <997.313T575T13832979@lr.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143737 Gently extracted from the mind of George William Herbert; >Darren J Longhorn wrote: >>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>etched all the way through them with a laser? >Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >the laser... >The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter >if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be. >So stone and most ceramics are out. >Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, >are good choices. I'd avoid gold though. someone might melt down "how to make a blast furnace" to make a bracelet for his girl friend >Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been >proposed as one method which would last a long time. >But they presume microscopes to read them with. Lens and use diagram on one side, and data on the other. -ash for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 03 Jul 03 10:21:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa+ffaabg52LOhI6BbOYBnFDxhgITiS83+BLv1vmo4yDNKilD4WfhK4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2003 12:27:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-182 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143456 In article , gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: >Darren J Longhorn wrote: >>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>etched all the way through them with a laser? > >Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >the laser... > >The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter >if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be. > >So stone and most ceramics are out. > >Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, >are good choices. Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down and make jewelry. > >Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been >proposed as one method which would last a long time. > >But they presume microscopes to read them with. Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope. Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 03 Jul 03 10:22:24 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa/UR38v1mj0wSqR9bRSeSVX26BgVXYxjvjn+uiDYiZnIqX7OyfsUBN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jul 2003 12:28:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-182 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143455 In article , "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >"Darren J Longhorn" wrote: >> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:25 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones" >> wrote: >> >Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best >> >you can get is an active system which continuously >> >repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds >> >of the error detection / correction system to handle >> >them). >> >> It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >> etched all the way through them with a laser? > >Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean >that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the >Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to >destroy your information no matter how you try to save >it. You need something living to keep pumping in >negative entropy to keep your information around for an >indefinite period of time. Preferably something that >can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems / >organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you >can do is create storage systems designed for certain >non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best. > DNA. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 04 Jul 03 09:26:41 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZBzEWCE5+GAQVKxvh8LNpHYbKvB426Ndyu3hlPXQvXWvo+aiv1S4FE X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2003 11:33:05 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143492 In article , "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: > wrote: >> In article , >> "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >> >Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean >> >that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the >> >Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to >> >destroy your information no matter how you try to save >> >it. You need something living to keep pumping in >> >negative entropy to keep your information around for an >> >indefinite period of time. Preferably something that >> >can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems / >> >organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you >> >can do is create storage systems designed for certain >> >non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best. >> > >> DNA. > >I'd thought about that, and it's not really that bad an idea. >Encode your data (with extra error correction, just in case) >in the DNA of Deinococcus Radiodurans and let it loose into >the wild or keep a culture of it long term. The problem with >that though is that the ability to mutate itself is a selected >characteristic for organisms. Organisms which can mututate >have an advantage over those that don't, so even with D. >Radiodurans the ability to maintain DNA integrity in the face >of powerful mutagenic forces will usually only bring DNA >integrity up to the level of most organisms under normal >conditions, but won't necessarily make the DNA, over many >generations, more stable. Keeping the organisms in a culture >with unchanging conditions would certainly help that out a >lot, but wouldn't be a cure-all. I don't think you can solve both problems with one solution. Problem 1: Maintaining today's knowledge within today's context. Problem 2: Evolving today's knowledge to include tomorrow's context. If you think about it, the two contradict each other; thus one solution can't solve both problems. >Nevertheless, if the data were properly encoded in a clever >enough fashion and if it had an extra level of error >correction (pre / post processing of the data, in other >words) it could very easily last millions or billions of >years. One of the facinating things about Mother Nature is that she's damned efficient. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 04 Jul 03 10:07:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY8LVL4xg+BgNxzWr8Ik5DJpZjq+cK6HCPx5YjaqrI6pWlghKn2NteR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2003 12:13:52 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143460 In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article , >> gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: >>>Darren J Longhorn wrote: >>>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>>>etched all the way through them with a laser? >>> >>>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >>>the laser... >>> >>>The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter >>>if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be. >>> >>>So stone and most ceramics are out. >>> >>>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, >>>are good choices. >> >>Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down >>and make jewelry. > >So, we'll need something too hard for a bronze-age culture to >melt or otherwise destroy, looks pretty, and can contain >information. What surface tricks can be played with metals >like Titanium? (Iridium may not be that far out either, BTW). > >Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they >are not destroyed? You have to care for the times when jewelry is a sign of the Devil. I've been worrying about this for 30 years [emoticon subtracts age and year]..40+ years. I still haven't figured out how to ensure preservation from bugs and water. Ensuring preservation from humans means hiding it...but that rather defeats the purpose of preservation. > >(besides, the actual people will literally walk around with >answers to most of their technical challenges inches away >from their noses). > >>>Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been >>>proposed as one method which would last a long time. >>> >>>But they presume microscopes to read them with. >> >>Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope. >>Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist. > >Perhaps some framing for the micro-data can make a rudimentary >hologram of what you need to do? Perhaps. Now you have to consider dependency problems. I just don't know enough about everything to be able to make a guess at what can be done. I've got contigencies for total annihilation, half-annihilation, full Dark Ages event, a half-Dark Ages event and generational attrition. And then I read Boyd's bio and got caught by the short hairs with the notion that it might be better for that group to start from scratch; I have to think about this for about two years. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Darren J Longhorn Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Reply-To: darrenlonghorn@yahoo.com Message-ID: <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Inktomi-Trace: public1-leds1-5-cust13.leed.broadband.ntl.com 1057173853 21128 80.0.33.13 (2 Jul 2003 19:24:13 GMT) Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:23:02 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.192.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net 1057173853 62.252.192.4 (Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:24:13 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:24:13 BST Organization: ntl News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143727 On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:25 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >"Paul Ciszek" wrote: >> Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic >> tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this, >> darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical >> storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought. > >Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best >you can get is an active system which continuously >repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds >of the error detection / correction system to handle >them). It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines etched all the way through them with a laser? ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 2 Jul 2003 16:44:15 -0700 Organization: Dis- Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143443 Darren J Longhorn wrote: >It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >etched all the way through them with a laser? Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from the laser... The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be. So stone and most ceramics are out. Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, are good choices. Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been proposed as one method which would last a long time. But they presume microscopes to read them with. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 00:43:05 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f031a51.2643290@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143432 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com>, > proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: [snip] >>Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well. > >That only works for certain classes of information. I just finished >reading a book on ancient technology and archaeologists have a >difficult time trying to figure out how some stuff was made because >the only record they had was a picture on a vase so the dimensional >relationships of the parts are skewed convexly. That would not have happened if they had gone flattablet. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:52:29 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 21:34:50 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !e6[b1k-X8mP(@a7O.j3 (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143426 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: > Of course, that points out the fact that the stone was just laying > on/in the ground for several hundred years. And that in turn points > out the fact that some sort of continual data stewardship will be > necessary. Either through preventing damage to data, or through > continual correction of the data, or both. You might enjoy listening to a commentary that ran this past Tuesday on NPR's "All Things Considered" with this introduction: "Ever decide to clean out your hard drive? Probably not. It's too easy to do a search for the material you're looking for. So lots of information from a long time ago that you probably don't need is just sitting there. Commentator David Weinberger says it could be there forever. The ability to store huge amounts of data in such a small physical space is changing the way we think about our past." http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/segment.jhtml?wfId=1317383 http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.jhtml?prgId=2&prgDate=July/1/2003 ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 02:13:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.152.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1057198406 216.80.152.116 (Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:13:26 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 19:13:26 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-pas-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143398 On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:16:58 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >Of course, that points out the fact that the stone was just laying >on/in the ground for several hundred years. And that in turn points >out the fact that some sort of continual data stewardship will be >necessary. Either through preventing damage to data, or through >continual correction of the data, or both. Ink and paper can survive stone. There are inscriptions in Rome that have weathered away, but we still know what they were because someone wrote them down. ###### Message-ID: <3F03DDA1.90CA4492@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1057054024.62954@saucer.planet.gong> <1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1057210941 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 03 Jul 2003 05:42:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 05:42:21 GMT Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 05:42:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143693 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <1057065091.313345@saucer.planet.gong>, > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > To be honest if I had a small amount of data that I really > > wanted kept in electronic format I'd use mouse-proof paper-tape. > > Be careful. My mice ate my fiche (if you're talking about mylar). > You are lucky. I don't have the time to fiche... ;-) > > > Um, and keep the cats away from it too just in case they decide > > to play with it. > > And those ants that like to live in computers. > Or is that a folklore? > Well this is ...so folklore should be welcome. IMHO if the computer is properly debugged, there should be *no* ants in there. If I have a small amount of datathat I really want to keep in a readable format, I create a ROM out of a diode matrix. ;-) Honest, I have an old TAB book on building your own microcomputer. This book has several pages on how to create a boot ROM using a matrix of diodes. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Sender: dowe@krikkit.localhost Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3f031a51.2643290@news.ocis.net> From: Dowe Keller Date: 02 Jul 2003 23:24:31 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63-93-78-236.lsan.sti.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 63-93-78-236.lsan.sti.net X-Trace: news.sti.net 1057213272 63.93.78.236 (2 Jul 2003 23:21:12 -0700) Organization: news.sti.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sti.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143619 genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) writes: > That would not have happened if they had gone flattablet. I've been thinking about granite or clay for computer data. Clay seems the most usable, it's not as hard to work with, although it has to be fired (an extra step). Granite is a dry process, but I don't want to figure a way to punch holes in, for instance, a 1/2" thick granite tablet. The big problem is the weight of a deck of "cards". -- dowe@sierratel.com http://www.sierratel.com/dowe And the Lord told adm ``Run any programs you want, but stay away from emacs, because if thou runneth it the system shall surely die''. ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:22:53 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1fxhryu.rr1qfb1t4ny5fN%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057234974 18958 166.84.199.79 (3 Jul 2003 12:22:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 12:22:54 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143654 George William Herbert wrote: > Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, > are good choices. Scratch the ones that are valuable, they will be reused. A lot of Greek Bronze statues only survive in marble copies because they were melted down for the bronze. Basicly scratch metals from the list, to valuable. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> Lines: 45 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 22:50:17 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.111.136.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1057309203 80.111.136.96 (Fri, 04 Jul 2003 11:00:03 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 11:00:03 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!195.34.132.50.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.chello.at!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143673 In article , wrote: >In article , > gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: >>Darren J Longhorn wrote: >>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>>etched all the way through them with a laser? >> >>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >>the laser... >> >>The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter >>if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be. >> >>So stone and most ceramics are out. >> >>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, >>are good choices. > >Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down >and make jewelry. So, we'll need something too hard for a bronze-age culture to melt or otherwise destroy, looks pretty, and can contain information. What surface tricks can be played with metals like Titanium? (Iridium may not be that far out either, BTW). Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they are not destroyed? (besides, the actual people will literally walk around with answers to most of their technical challenges inches away from their noses). >>Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been >>proposed as one method which would last a long time. >> >>But they presume microscopes to read them with. > >Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope. >Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist. Perhaps some framing for the micro-data can make a rudimentary hologram of what you need to do? -- mrr ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:41:14 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1fxj5fr.1eqnn8812dst8cN%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057268473 377 166.84.199.79 (3 Jul 2003 21:41:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:41:13 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143639 wrote: > > Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope. > Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Particuarly pathogens. No more taking to piegons, killing one and smearing the blood on the other before releasing it to cure leprosy. Knowledge of antibiothics and anesthesia and antiseptic technique. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 18:32:37 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 18:38:05 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !X9Gd1k-V^Qb;'%7Npsq (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143423 Sam Yorko wrote: > They found it. In the transcription of human DNA that had just been > finished and posted. > I've wondered if the programmer(s) signed their work therein. Or if ours was done as an Open Source project? ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: Coridon Henshaw <(chenshaw@(T References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> <3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Organisation: Annoyed Sympatico Customer Lines: 12 Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 23:57:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.9.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1057276632 64.229.9.96 (Thu, 03 Jul 2003 19:57:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 19:57:12 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-in.mts.net!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143502 Larry__Weiss wrote in news:3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net: > Or if ours was done as an Open Source project? Considering the number of genetic defects and questionable design decisions in the human species, we're quite clearly a Microsoft product. -- "The broad mass of a nation . . . will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one." -- Adolf Hitler | **REGIME CHANGE 2004** Coridon Henshaw / http://www3.sympatico.ca/gcircle/csbh ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:07:58 -0800 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3F04C55E.61972723@computer.org> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1057273662 593459 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143431 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: > > "Walter Bushell" wrote: > > Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well. > > Actually not. We see and take note of the clay tablets and chisled > granite pieces which have managed to survive thousands of years. We > don't see at all those which have been destroyed, and we don't take > much note of those which have been damaged beyond all usefulness > (precisely because they lack the information content which makes > such objects so interesting). I note in particular that the famed > Rosetta stone, which is of comparatively recent vintage next to the > oldest of the old civilizations on Earth, is partially damaged. > > Of course, that points out the fact that the stone was just laying > on/in the ground for several hundred years. And that in turn points > out the fact that some sort of continual data stewardship will be > necessary. Either through preventing damage to data, or through > continual correction of the data, or both. It also didn't help that it had been recycled into a wall stone at some point.... Sam ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 16:13:51 -0800 Lines: 50 Message-ID: <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1057274011 675374 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143440 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: > > wrote: > > In article , > > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: > > >Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean > > >that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the > > >Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to > > >destroy your information no matter how you try to save > > >it. You need something living to keep pumping in > > >negative entropy to keep your information around for an > > >indefinite period of time. Preferably something that > > >can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems / > > >organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you > > >can do is create storage systems designed for certain > > >non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best. > > > > > DNA. > > I'd thought about that, and it's not really that bad an idea. > Encode your data (with extra error correction, just in case) > in the DNA of Deinococcus Radiodurans and let it loose into > the wild or keep a culture of it long term. The problem with > that though is that the ability to mutate itself is a selected > characteristic for organisms. Organisms which can mututate > have an advantage over those that don't, so even with D. > Radiodurans the ability to maintain DNA integrity in the face > of powerful mutagenic forces will usually only bring DNA > integrity up to the level of most organisms under normal > conditions, but won't necessarily make the DNA, over many > generations, more stable. Keeping the organisms in a culture > with unchanging conditions would certainly help that out a > lot, but wouldn't be a cure-all. > > Nevertheless, if the data were properly encoded in a clever > enough fashion and if it had an extra level of error > correction (pre / post processing of the data, in other > words) it could very easily last millions or billions of > years. There was a science fiction story some years ago, where someone put together a basic internet scanner to look for patterns that might bespeak of alien communication; they felt that if there had been some sort of alien communication, the evidence might be found somewhere in the vast pile of knowledge that was the internet. They found it. In the transcription of human DNA that had just been finished and posted. Sam ###### From: "Robert A. Woodward" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 21:02:45 -0700 Organization: Home User Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> <3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.23.68 X-Server-Date: 4 Jul 2003 04:03:03 GMT User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!140.99.99.194.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!robertaw Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143403 In article <3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net>, Larry__Weiss wrote: > Sam Yorko wrote: > > They found it. In the transcription of human DNA that had just been > > finished and posted. > > > > I've wondered if the programmer(s) signed their work therein. > > Or if ours was done as an Open Source project? If it was the story I remember reading, the work was still under Copyright Protection (and the Law was on the job). -- Robert Woodward <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 35 Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:31:28 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.111.136.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1057312803 80.111.136.96 (Fri, 04 Jul 2003 12:00:03 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 12:00:03 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.multikabel.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143687 In article <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org>, Sam Yorko wrote: >"Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >> >> wrote: >> > In article , >> > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >> > >Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean >> > >that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the >> > >Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to >> > >destroy your information no matter how you try to save >> > >it. You need something living to keep pumping in >> > >negative entropy to keep your information around for an >> > >indefinite period of time. Preferably something that >> > >can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems / >> > >organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you >> > >can do is create storage systems designed for certain >> > >non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best. >> > > >> > DNA. >> >There was a science fiction story some years ago, where someone put >together a basic internet scanner to look for patterns that might >bespeak of alien communication; they felt that if there had been some >sort of alien communication, the evidence might be found somewhere in >the vast pile of knowledge that was the internet. > >They found it. In the transcription of human DNA that had just been >finished and posted. Has anyone used any significant (a.k.a. Seti) signal processing on DNA signals, and published? -- mrr ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 05 Jul 2003 00:09:23 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 61 Message-ID: <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1057356565 543 10.0.3.2 (4 Jul 2003 22:09:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jul 2003 22:09:25 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143767 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, > Morten Reistad wrote: > >In article , wrote: > >>In article , > >> gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: > >>>Darren J Longhorn wrote: > >>>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines > >>>>etched all the way through them with a laser? > >>> > >>>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from > >>> > >>>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, > >>>are good choices. > >> > >>Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down > >>and make jewelry. > > > >So, we'll need something too hard for a bronze-age culture to > >melt or otherwise destroy, looks pretty, and can contain > >information. What surface tricks can be played with metals > >like Titanium? (Iridium may not be that far out either, BTW). > > > >Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they > >are not destroyed? > > You have to care for the times when jewelry is a sign of the Devil. So that kills off about any material. Any single onject. Of course we long have the proper solution: Scatter as many copies as possible. Avoids any accidental or deliberate destruction of the data, by decoupling its existance form that of an single object. This has been tested, in multiple cases, by even the law not managing to put an program genie back into the bottle, once it was scattered over the internet (DeCSS anyone?). > I've been worrying about this for 30 years [emoticon subtracts age > and year]..40+ years. I still haven't figured out how to ensure > preservation from bugs and water. The method the bugs themselves use: Produce enough copies and some will not be flattend before reproducing. > Ensuring preservation from humans > means hiding it...but that rather defeats the purpose of preservation. Or being fully out in the open, so often that no one has the power to destroy all copies. And fits the principle of preservation ideally. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 05 Jul 03 08:47:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 77 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYtjuAxEEyXl6tFdxdOTfGHIdrSkdXu6RvJXgpMHyRzCMhDkCxj+2P/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 2003 10:53:44 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-170 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143803 In article <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, >> Morten Reistad wrote: >> >In article , wrote: >> >>In article , >> >> gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: >> >>>Darren J Longhorn wrote: >> >>>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >> >>>>etched all the way through them with a laser? >> >>> >> >>>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >> >>> >> >>>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, >> >>>are good choices. >> >> >> >>Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down >> >>and make jewelry. >> > >> >So, we'll need something too hard for a bronze-age culture to >> >melt or otherwise destroy, looks pretty, and can contain >> >information. What surface tricks can be played with metals >> >like Titanium? (Iridium may not be that far out either, BTW). >> > >> >Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they >> >are not destroyed? >> >> You have to care for the times when jewelry is a sign of the Devil. > >So that kills off about any material. Any single onject. Correct. > > >Of course we long have the proper solution: Scatter as many copies as >possible. Avoids any accidental or deliberate destruction of the data, >by decoupling its existance form that of an single object. That's why I've been cheering you guys on w.r.t. SIMH and mirror sites of Tim's. > >This has been tested, in multiple cases, by even the law not managing >to put an program genie back into the bottle, once it was scattered >over the internet (DeCSS anyone?). I've had massive amounts of discussions with myself about that very thing. > > >> I've been worrying about this for 30 years [emoticon subtracts age >> and year]..40+ years. I still haven't figured out how to ensure >> preservation from bugs and water. > >The method the bugs themselves use: Produce enough copies and some >will not be flattend before reproducing. > > >> Ensuring preservation from humans >> means hiding it...but that rather defeats the purpose of preservation. > >Or being fully out in the open, so often that no one has the power to >destroy all copies. And fits the principle of preservation ideally. Another way was establishing a religion so that the order has sufficient impetus to protect the icons. But I always reject this out of general principles since it's religion fervor that's been raising my warning flags over the years. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 05 Jul 03 08:50:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <997.313T575T13832979@lr.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbStDG69qiHoMJu8eFooaU0tk/LXBF9ccrA4L2RLU5lrGRbW8RC3ORH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 2003 10:57:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-170 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143802 In article , Conrad Hodson wrote: >On 2 Jul 2003, Ash Wyllie wrote: >Are we talking about saving historical data for an advanced society that >uses newer media? Rebuilding guides for survivors of worldwide disaster, >level 1800 or so? Or a time capsule for the far future, when the >scholarly descendents of _Rattus norvegicus_, or archaeologists from Tau >Ceti, are the readers, curious about how we screwed up? > Yes. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 05 Jul 03 08:52:32 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <1fxj5fr.1eqnn8812dst8cN%proto@panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVakoX/VpSc1XGoIIbRhOpBMOIO/1hRX677RxJH/gHJo9tsXVc1qV7cn X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 2003 10:59:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-170 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143793 In article , "Hank Oredson" wrote: > >"Walter Bushell" wrote in message >news:1fxj5fr.1eqnn8812dst8cN%proto@panix.com... >> wrote: >> >> >> > >> > Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope. >> > Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist. >> > >> > /BAH >> > >> > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. >> >> Particuarly pathogens. No more taking to piegons, killing one and >> smearing the blood on the other before releasing it to cure leprosy. >> >> Knowledge of antibiothics and anesthesia and antiseptic technique. > > >How to make sewing needles. Hollow needles are harder :-) > >There are an amazing number of technologies, techniques and crafts >we take for granted ... like how to make pipe. > Yup. I just finished a book about ancient technology. I also just learned why a lathe was important. (It was another lesson that I had no idea about how much I didn't know.) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 17:14:11 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1fxjoqr.8yll0rjgp5fkN%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> <3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057353250 23965 166.84.199.79 (4 Jul 2003 21:14:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 21:14:10 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143869 Larry__Weiss wrote: > Sam Yorko wrote: > > They found it. In the transcription of human DNA that had just been > > finished and posted. > > > > I've wondered if the programmer(s) signed their work therein. > > Or if ours was done as an Open Source project? That would be a laugh, for the Intelligent Designer crowd, its thousands of intelligent designers. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### From: Conrad Hodson Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:10:17 -0700 Organization: Oregon Public Networking Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <997.313T575T13832979@lr.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: garcia.efn.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <997.313T575T13832979@lr.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.efn.org!garcia.efn.org!conradh Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143879 On 2 Jul 2003, Ash Wyllie wrote: > >Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, > >are good choices. Nickel actually oxidizes quite readily in fires. Since fires are one common local symptom of civilization collapse, if you archive on nickel plates you should do it in some totally nonflammable structure at least. > > I'd avoid gold though. someone might melt down "how to make a blast furnace" > to make a bracelet for his girl friend Or, again, it could all melt just because the archive library burned down. Then somebody mines the ruins to make bracelets, and gets gold fever and melts any archives that survived as well. > > >Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been > >proposed as one method which would last a long time. > > >But they presume microscopes to read them with. > > Lens and use diagram on one side, and data on the other. Or make some large-scale copies of "how to make a microscope" and the related texts. If you're unsure of how thoroughly things might go to hell, it might be worth putting a lot of basic stuff like glassmaking on big plates. Are we talking about saving historical data for an advanced society that uses newer media? Rebuilding guides for survivors of worldwide disaster, level 1800 or so? Or a time capsule for the far future, when the scholarly descendents of _Rattus norvegicus_, or archaeologists from Tau Ceti, are the readers, curious about how we screwed up? Conrad Hodson ###### From: "Hank Oredson" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <1fxj5fr.1eqnn8812dst8cN%proto@panix.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 01:39:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.81.192.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1057369184 12.81.192.147 (Sat, 05 Jul 2003 01:39:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 01:39:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143808 "Walter Bushell" wrote in message news:1fxj5fr.1eqnn8812dst8cN%proto@panix.com... > wrote: > > > > > > Part of the data that has to be kept is how to make a microscope. > > Part of the data that needs to be kept is that small things exist. > > > > /BAH > > > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. > > Particuarly pathogens. No more taking to piegons, killing one and > smearing the blood on the other before releasing it to cure leprosy. > > Knowledge of antibiothics and anesthesia and antiseptic technique. How to make sewing needles. Hollow needles are harder :-) There are an amazing number of technologies, techniques and crafts we take for granted ... like how to make pipe. -- ... Hank Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net ###### From: shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 4 Jul 2003 18:54:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> <3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.145.156.73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1057370094 30638 127.0.0.1 (5 Jul 2003 01:54:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 2003 01:54:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143870 Coridon Henshaw <(chenshaw@(T wrote in message news:... > Larry__Weiss wrote in news:3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net: > > > Or if ours was done as an Open Source project? > > Considering the number of genetic defects and questionable design decisions > in the human species, we're quite clearly a Microsoft product. Nonsense. If we were Microsoft products, on a daily basis we'd all suddenly go into cardiac arrest, keel over unconscious, and be basically useless to ourselves and others until outside resuscitation was applied. This would result in the loss of all memories of everything done previously that day, meaning we'd have to write down everything we thought and were doing every few minutes so as to be able to pick up where we left off. We would all accept this as perfectly normal. :) Shermanlee ###### Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:12:41 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030705091241.32ef6475.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F04C6BF.FDE613CC@computer.org> <3F04BD15.F026F6EB@airmail.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 05 Jul 2003 07:55:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p3202.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1057391712 willi.euronet.nl 45370 62.234.207.130:2375 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143845 On 4 Jul 2003 18:54:53 -0700 shermanlee1@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote: J> suddenly go into cardiac arrest, keel over unconscious, and be J> basically useless to ourselves and others until outside resuscitation J> was applied. Consider waking a teenager. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Darren J Longhorn Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Reply-To: darrenlonghorn@yahoo.com Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Inktomi-Trace: public1-leds1-5-cust13.leed.broadband.ntl.com 1057404154 3026 80.0.33.13 (5 Jul 2003 11:22:34 GMT) Lines: 12 Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 12:21:22 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.224.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep2-gui.server.ntli.net 1057404155 80.1.224.4 (Sat, 05 Jul 2003 12:22:35 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 12:22:35 BST Organization: ntl News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep2-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143895 On 2 Jul 2003 16:44:15 -0700, gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: >Darren J Longhorn wrote: >>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>etched all the way through them with a laser? > >Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >the laser... > It was a jovial suggestion. Since you didn't get it I guess you're not posting from alt.books.larry-niven ###### From: jsaepuru@solo.ee (Jaak Suurpere) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 5 Jul 2003 08:07:26 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 80 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.214.14.209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1057417646 16296 127.0.0.1 (5 Jul 2003 15:07:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Jul 2003 15:07:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143862 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:<6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > > In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, > > Morten Reistad wrote: > > >In article , wrote: > > >>In article , > > >> gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: > > >>>Darren J Longhorn wrote: > > >>>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines > > >>>>etched all the way through them with a laser? > > >>> > > >>>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from > > >>> > > >>>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, > > >>>are good choices. > > >> > > >>Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down > > >>and make jewelry. > > > > > >So, we'll need something too hard for a bronze-age culture to > > >melt or otherwise destroy, looks pretty, and can contain > > >information. What surface tricks can be played with metals > > >like Titanium? (Iridium may not be that far out either, BTW). > > > > > >Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they > > >are not destroyed? > > > > You have to care for the times when jewelry is a sign of the Devil. > > So that kills off about any material. Any single onject. > > > Of course we long have the proper solution: Scatter as many copies as > possible. Avoids any accidental or deliberate destruction of the data, > by decoupling its existance form that of an single object. > > This has been tested, in multiple cases, by even the law not managing > to put an program genie back into the bottle, once it was scattered > over the internet (DeCSS anyone?). > Which, of course, depends on the Internet remaining free. DeCSS remained because many people tried to preserve it. By contrast, e. g. oral heritage is distributed, but can be very perishable. > > > I've been worrying about this for 30 years [emoticon subtracts age > > and year]..40+ years. I still haven't figured out how to ensure > > preservation from bugs and water. > > The method the bugs themselves use: Produce enough copies and some > will not be flattend before reproducing. > > > > Ensuring preservation from humans > > means hiding it...but that rather defeats the purpose of preservation. > > Or being fully out in the open, so often that no one has the power to > destroy all copies. And fits the principle of preservation ideally. If it is not hid at all, it is easy to find out the locations of all copies and destroy them deliberately. There must be a lot of hidden ones. I would say that burnt clay is pretty good material. It is common, so that it is cheap to produce large amount of copies. The impressions can easily be mass-produced. They have utilitarian uses - some of which are not adversely affected by presence of impressions and do not require destruction of impressions. On the other hand, burnt clay as material cannot really be recycled. If you have durable, cheap, mass-produced items which because of their purposes are likely to be lost or discarded, you can create a large body of writing on and in ground, and in waters, including shallow ones. Thus future generations would be likely to find many of writings by accident. Yet because they are cheap an widely scattered, no generation is going to find all the lost ones, nor be able to seek out and destroy all messages. ###### From: gsmith@para.lynx.com (Gordon Smith) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 18:08:08 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!gsmith Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143772 On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:52:29 -0500, Larry__Weiss wrote: >You might enjoy listening to a commentary that ran this past Tuesday >on NPR's "All Things Considered" with this introduction: > > "Ever decide to clean out your hard drive? Probably not. > It's too easy to do a search for the material you're > looking for. So lots of information from a long time ago > that you probably don't need is just sitting there. > Commentator David Weinberger says it could be there > forever. The ability to store huge amounts of data in > such a small physical space is changing the way we think > about our past." > > http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/segment.jhtml?wfId=1317383 > http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.jhtml?prgId=2&prgDate=July/1/2003 This reminds me of a story that I've been trying to track down: To prevent worthless old data from taking up all the storage space, computer archives of the future are designed to erase any information that remains unused after some amount of years. People have to actively preserve data they want to keep; they can't just leave it somewhere in memory. This story must be pretty obscure; it didn't ring any bells on rasfw. Does anybody here recognize it? -- Gordon Smith (There's just one dot in my address.) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 06 Jul 03 09:14:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYZVqYjAHPZLoALYz66KdC3OF/0CB+KSo6KAXQQtDGTp3hGgIHKg9Fc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2003 11:21:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-245 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143932 In article , gsmith@para.lynx.com (Gordon Smith) wrote: >On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 20:52:29 -0500, Larry__Weiss wrote: > >>You might enjoy listening to a commentary that ran this past Tuesday >>on NPR's "All Things Considered" with this introduction: >> >> "Ever decide to clean out your hard drive? Probably not. >> It's too easy to do a search for the material you're >> looking for. So lots of information from a long time ago >> that you probably don't need is just sitting there. >> Commentator David Weinberger says it could be there >> forever. The ability to store huge amounts of data in >> such a small physical space is changing the way we think >> about our past." >> >> http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/segment.jhtml?wfId=1317383 >> http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.jhtml?prgId=2&prgDate=July/1/2003 > >This reminds me of a story that I've been trying to track down: > > To prevent worthless old data from taking up all the storage space, > computer archives of the future are designed to erase any > information that remains unused after some amount of years. People > have to actively preserve data they want to keep; they can't just > leave it somewhere in memory. > >This story must be pretty obscure; Story? How do you think sources of programs that were crucial to a business got lost? > ..it didn't ring any bells on rasfw. >Does anybody here recognize it? It's not a story. It's been happening in real life for decades. Because of this, I made it a hard and fast rule that everything we shipped had to be rebuilt from scratch everytime we made a master tape. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 06 Jul 03 09:18:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbOZNH1t/PDcI+5cUh7n2lDBR3NgDZ9SYFkJI9KOJcKaaRn/2HqREoZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2003 11:24:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-245 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143925 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad wrote: > >> Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they >> are not destroyed? > >In fact, that might be the way to get them preserved. Not if those manic Christians have their way. Wearing jewelry could be declared a sin. Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 06 Jul 03 09:21:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> <3F07F116.68F734A6@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ1paNt6ifcUFzo9T1s93ayeHoblyFzpf1nmmYEKhKcooE/trkPHDM0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2003 11:27:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-245 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143923 In article <3F07F116.68F734A6@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >> >> In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad wrote: >> >> > Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they >> > are not destroyed? >> >> In fact, that might be the way to get them preserved. >> >ISTM that storing little used data...is the whole purpose of >an archive. If the data is used regulary, You have to access every bit placement. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Ash Wyllie" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 06 Jul 03 09:16:54 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <703.317T2713T5564965@lr.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144074 Gently extracted from the mind of Bill Woods; >Anton Sherwood wrote: >> > Much of the island [Niue]'s web investment has been made possible >> > by selling rights to use its .nu domain name. Tens of thousands of >> > companies worldwide have paid $US30 ($45) each to include the suffix >> > in their internet addresses. >> >> I feel like such a philanthropist. >> >> -- >> Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ >I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan >domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? Well, if you combine it with a Danish domain, it would become a good place for nudes. -ash for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX ###### From: "Ash Wyllie" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 06 Jul 03 12:35:30 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <502.317T1531T7554003@lr.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <703.317T2713T5564965@lr.net> X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144073 Gently extracted from the mind of Torsten Poulin; >Ash Wyllie wrote: >>>I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan >>>domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? > >> Well, if you combine it with a Danish domain, it would become a >> good place for nudes. >No, not really. "Nu" means "now" in Danish. You're thinking of >French. Oops, I meant Germany (sorry Denmark). www.someplace.nu.de -ash for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX ###### From: Bill Woods Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2003 19:52:29 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Reply-To: wwoods@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.c8.2f Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 6 Jul 2003 02:53:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-pas-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143966 Anton Sherwood wrote: > > Much of the island [Niue]'s web investment has been made possible > > by selling rights to use its .nu domain name. Tens of thousands of > > companies worldwide have paid $US30 ($45) each to include the suffix > > in their internet addresses. > > I feel like such a philanthropist. > > -- > Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? -- Bill Woods "And then I lull myself to sleep at night with fantasies of learning to teleport, so that I can appear in the offices of the spammers and the telemarketers and RAM A BLOODY GREAT BROADSWORD INTO THE MOTHERBOARDS OF THEIR COMPUTER EQUIPMENT." -- Andrew Plotkin ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:16:05 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.236 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057464667 209.96.185.236 (5 Jul 2003 23:11:07 -0500) Lines: 24 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out2.nntp.be!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143973 In article , Paul Ciszek wrote: > Damn. What sort of truly archival storage is there? Magnetic > tape has its problems as well. Someone needs to work on this, > darn it. Perhaps some sort of microfilm-based digital optical > storage might work? Microfilm is good for a long time, I thought. The more I read this thread, the more I think back to reading Asimov's Foundation series. I think there are enough parallels that someone should be working on a mass archival store, independent as possible. -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:19:49 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.236 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057464669 209.96.185.236 (5 Jul 2003 23:11:09 -0500) Lines: 25 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out2.nntp.be!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143988 In article , George William Herbert wrote: > Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been > proposed as one method which would last a long time. > > But they presume microscopes to read them with. What about spools of wire? Can't you make that which will last for at least centuries? Also, if the recording is physical, it should be fairly easy to get started on figuring out how it is stored. -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:21:56 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.236 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057464672 209.96.185.236 (5 Jul 2003 23:11:12 -0500) Lines: 23 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-out.superfeed.net!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143991 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Nope. People who don't know any better, will melt them down > and make jewelry. Intractible problem outside the scope of preservation itself. People who don't know better are a constant, and won't go away, and can't be avoided. The same people probably will also be unable to make use of the data anyway, so if they are all that's left we'll de-evolve anyway... :) -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <1fxj5fr.1eqnn8812dst8cN%proto@panix.com> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:35:13 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.236 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057464673 209.96.185.236 (5 Jul 2003 23:11:13 -0500) Lines: 24 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out2.nntp.be!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143983 In article , Hank Oredson wrote: > There are an amazing number of technologies, techniques and crafts > we take for granted ... like how to make pipe. Knives, shelters, digging tunnels, making paper, making ink, tanning leather, preserving meat without refridgeration, growing food, which mushrooms and berries won't kill you, how to collect water with a towel and an open field, how to purify water, how test test water, how to dig a well (without getting killed), how to make rope, how to tie knots in that rope, how to build bridges and boats and wheels... and so on. -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:35:55 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.236 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057464674 209.96.185.236 (5 Jul 2003 23:11:14 -0500) Lines: 17 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-out.superfeed.net!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143993 In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad wrote: > Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they > are not destroyed? In fact, that might be the way to get them preserved. -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:57:31 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.236 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057464675 209.96.185.236 (5 Jul 2003 23:11:15 -0500) Lines: 20 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-out.superfeed.net!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143986 In article , philo wrote: > lot of worrying about nothing... > for my whole life all i;ve heard is that > "the whole world is about to be destroyed" by some catastrophie > > yet half the time, it never happens anyway... You mean the other half of the time your world *was* destroyed? :0 -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 08:47:10 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030706084710.0cd7cb85.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 06 Jul 2003 14:14:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1245.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1057500857 willi.euronet.nl 45375 194.134.212.226:2420 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144039 On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 19:52:29 -0700 Bill Woods wrote: BW> I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan BW> domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? It's Dutch for "now". -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F07F116.68F734A6@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1057478069 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 06 Jul 2003 07:54:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 07:54:29 GMT Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 07:54:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144062 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > > In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad wrote: > > > Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they > > are not destroyed? > > In fact, that might be the way to get them preserved. > ISTM that storing little used data...is the whole purpose of an archive. If the data is used regulary, then you do *not* have an archive...you have a library. Access to specific data is faster in a library environment...compare to an archive. But the archive keeps huge amounts of data safe, so those who follow us will have access to the resource, if they are willing to do the work to dig it out. The unfortunate truth is that even archives require *some* maintenance. I propose that when an archive is created...like the NASA tapes from unmanned deep-space missions...there should also be created an archive trust fund to pay for the maintenance of the archive. Some university could act as conservator for the archive, and make sure that things are kept readable in some manner, at least. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <3f084425.1100833210@news.eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:47:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.107.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1057506291 159.134.107.8 (Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:44:51 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:44:51 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143950 On Fri, 04 Jul 03 10:07:28 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >Perhaps. Now you have to consider dependency problems. I just don't >know enough about everything to be able to make a guess at >what can be done. I've got contigencies for total annihilation, >half-annihilation, full Dark Ages event, a half-Dark Ages event >and generational attrition. And then I read Boyd's bio and got >caught by the short hairs with the notion that it might be better >for that group to start from scratch; I have to think about this >for about two years. Well, we started from scratch, and the scenarios being considered are ones in which we don't make it. In that case, it would seem worth trying the non starting from scratch approach for the second attempt. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address. http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace ###### From: wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <3f0844ab.1100967115@news.eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:52:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.107.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1057506631 159.134.107.8 (Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:50:31 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:50:31 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!easynews.net!newsfeed3.easynews.net!feeder.news.heanet.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143954 On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:30:29 +0100, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >Sadly I doubt that many machines would really qualify for low >power consumption or longevity. A lot of the components used >in a modern machine struggle to survive beyond 5 years. If you >are talking 5+ years in storage then you run into a whole >different problem ... Electrolytic caps degrade fairly swiftly >over time and will look like a short circuit if left unused >for many years. The FLASH memories are usually rated at 10 >years, after which they start losing bits, most common CD-R >media is rated at 3 years tops. That's the minimum lifespan the manufacturer promises. Mean time to failure should be a lot longer; I've seen estimates of up to several decades. If you do something like storing the CDs in an inert atmosphere, that would presumably add considerably to that figure; more simply, just make lots of copies and at least some of them should get lucky. With regards to hardware longevity, I'm inclined to think the easiest approach would be to just buy a stack of ordinary machines and let the law of averages take care of making sure at least some of them stay operational; plus, you can cannibalize the early casualties for parts. People are still running 20 year old Commodore 8-bit machines that way, and Commodore's build quality was utterly abysmal compared to modern PCs. It's a strategy that works for the ants: let numbers substitute for quality where possible. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address. http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace ###### From: wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <3f08462b.1101351389@news.eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 15:56:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.107.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1057506839 159.134.107.8 (Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:53:59 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:53:59 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143952 On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:13:04 -0400, proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: >Baked clay tablets, and chilsed granite seem to work quite well. Most of the clay tablets of past centuries have been destroyed; but in any case, the storage density of clay tablets is too small to be of any great use. You want at least the storage density of paper. I'm in the school of thought that says it's better to rely on lots of copies than durability of any one copy. Fortunately our civilization is happily following just that strategy, albeit for different reasons. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address. http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace ###### From: wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <3f08475f.1101659370@news.eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:00:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.107.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1057507101 159.134.107.8 (Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:58:21 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 16:58:21 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:143953 On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 10:34:49 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >I'd thought about that, and it's not really that bad an idea. >Encode your data (with extra error correction, just in case) >in the DNA of Deinococcus Radiodurans and let it loose into >the wild or keep a culture of it long term. That won't work, because variants of the bug that have discarded some of the (to them useless junk) data will have a selective advantage over those that retain it. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address. http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace ###### From: Jim Burns Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 12:43:02 -0400 Organization: Ohio State University Lines: 52 Message-ID: <3F085196.B011B237@osu.edu> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts14-8.homenet.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 1057510215 5473 140.254.113.47 (6 Jul 2003 16:50:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@osu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2003 16:50:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.service.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144067 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > [...] > >Of course we long have the proper solution: Scatter as many copies as > >possible. Avoids any accidental or deliberate destruction of the data, > >by decoupling its existance form that of an single object. > > That's why I've been cheering you guys on w.r.t. SIMH and mirror > sites of Tim's. > > > > >This has been tested, in multiple cases, by even the law not managing > >to put an program genie back into the bottle, once it was scattered > >over the internet (DeCSS anyone?). > > I've had massive amounts of discussions with myself about that very > thing. [...] A question I've been discussing with myself is what sort of development would give us a post-doomsday Internet? I think a lot of the flaws rightfully pointed out in the various scenarios are inherent in computers becoming rare, possibly valuable, artifacts. One of the factors in the 20/21 cen. explosion in computer use has been the economics of increasing returns, when each individual PC (or phone, or fax machine) becomes more valuable as the number of units increases. Unfortunately, this cuts in both directions. I think it's at least plausible that the massive computing power we take for granted just won't be very important to post-doomsday societies, except in rare instances, like the example of a CAD system used to design a better boat, given the available resources. A post-doomsday Internet sounds like a contradiction. (I'm not referring to its ability to survive a massive attack; I mean the ability to survive indefinitely in spite of who knows what? world domination by couch potato memes?) Maybe it is, maybe not. There was an Analog novelette(?) ages ago where the good guys lived without factories, pollution, etc. but with modern technology by growing or raising genmod plants and animals for radios, knives, bulldozers, etc. I think it was intended to be humorous, but maybe that is how it could be possible. (Maybe that is the only way.) Jim Burns ###### From: Jim Burns Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 12:43:11 -0400 Organization: Ohio State University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3F08519F.C8963072@osu.edu> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <997.313T575T13832979@lr.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts14-8.homenet.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 1057510223 5473 140.254.113.47 (6 Jul 2003 16:50:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@osu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jul 2003 16:50:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.service.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144069 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article > , > Conrad Hodson wrote: > >On 2 Jul 2003, Ash Wyllie wrote: > > > >Are we talking about saving historical data for an advanced > >society that uses newer media? Rebuilding guides for survivors > >of worldwide disaster, level 1800 or so? Or a time capsule > >for the far future, when the scholarly descendents of _Rattus > >norvegicus_, or archaeologists from Tau Ceti, are the readers, > >curious about how we screwed up? > > Yes. One more thing for you to worry about: We may end up losing all that even without a doomsday. If we save everything, including hundred-year-old working copies of intra-office memos pleading for fewer memos, the stuff we'd really want, if we knew it existed, will be nearly as lost as if it'd been deleted. I see this notion show up sometimes. Some examples: _Startide rising_, David Brin; _Chess with a dragon_, David Gerrold; _A Fire upon the Deep_, Vernor Vinge. Jim Burns ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 17:00:39 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057525239 1332 166.84.199.79 (6 Jul 2003 21:00:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:00:39 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144090 wrote: > Story? How do you think sources of programs that were crucial > to a business got lost? I don't think it was a case of planing to delete the sources, it was more a case of failing to plan. However, in a culture that used binary patches, the source may have become I relevant anyway. They were put on mag tape, the operator mistakenly mounted them and zap. Several operating systems had _no_ respect for labels if the program called for an unlabeled tape. I was in a major NYC money center bank in a computing facility, when I told the guy I needed to be sure to keep the data for 3 years, (it was for the IRS) he looked at me like I was from another world. Disk crashes for sure, in more recent times. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:18:46 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.183 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1057543873 209.96.185.183 (6 Jul 2003 21:11:13 -0500) Lines: 27 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.uncensored-news.com!news-out.superfeed.net!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144151 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >>In article <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer>, Morten Reistad wrote: >> >>> Why do I care it people wear them as jewelry, as long as they >>> are not destroyed? >> >>In fact, that might be the way to get them preserved. > > Not if those manic Christians have their way. Wearing > jewelry could be declared a sin. The manic atheists, Jews, Muslims, Shinto, Hindi, etc... they'll do the same thing in a heartbeat. All forms of extremism out of control are dangerous. -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =----- ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 04:56:30 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:qtQKQeDcnjnLAEJFMk+R0kSQqTQ= References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Date: 07 Jul 2003 04:57:21 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1057546641 news.xs4all.nl 49117 80.127.198.243:1741 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144173 On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 19:52:29 -0700, Bill Woods wrote: > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? A vanity domain in the days when those are becoming scarce. It's also the Dutch word for 'now'. Cf. http://www.waterbedden.nu Giles (ever so vain). ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:14:56 -0500 Message-ID: <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:16:08 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-rgBbAZDk7xO8zWBZ9O7i9Nf4MZ6AxhPrxOIVpmSSABZSLQ3lhzBkQ0ygOoz34q24tJTiUv8aSQpdg2y!haleG+N16rKglfvGbhvMlbyZCcZXFJ0XarHTqO1nWSyhbXWC84j0f3OlDMSx49IrDzSL8eHSk4SV!iAbI X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144106 Bill Woods wrote: > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? Nothing. It's a goofy country name that people like to hijack for totally unrelated purposes. Other popular ones lately are .cc and .cx. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ In principle I am against principles. \__/ Tristan Tzara ###### From: Bill Woods Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 23:49:25 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 42 Message-ID: <3F0917E2.7A538B9@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> Reply-To: wwoods@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.dd.66 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 7 Jul 2003 06:45:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-pas-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144122 Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Darren J Longhorn" wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:25 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones" > > wrote: > > >Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best > > >you can get is an active system which continuously > > >repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds > > >of the error detection / correction system to handle > > >them). > > > > It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines > > etched all the way through them with a laser? > > Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean > that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the > Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to > destroy your information no matter how you try to save > it. You need something living to keep pumping in > negative entropy to keep your information around for an > indefinite period of time. Preferably something that > can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems / > organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you > can do is create storage systems designed for certain > non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best. Okay, for that you need von Neumann machines which will spread throughout the universe, reproducing themselves and their included archive. -- Bill Woods Here's a thought: When the World Bank is finished with Chad, it should come to California, whose public finances these days resemble those of a Third World corruption pit more than those of a modern, presumably enlightened, industrial society. http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/columns/walters/story/6944770p-7894047c.html ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 07 Jul 03 10:23:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3F085196.B011B237@osu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaMv6Chu6sFNPGxBcH+sDIOdI2j/kvE+KibsFL2QNyHh1jySceGEZLB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jul 2003 12:30:20 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144221 In article <3F085196.B011B237@osu.edu>, Jim Burns wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >> Neil Franklin wrote: >> > >[...] >> >Of course we long have the proper solution: Scatter as many copies as >> >possible. Avoids any accidental or deliberate destruction of the data, >> >by decoupling its existance form that of an single object. >> >> That's why I've been cheering you guys on w.r.t. SIMH and mirror >> sites of Tim's. >> >> > >> >This has been tested, in multiple cases, by even the law not managing >> >to put an program genie back into the bottle, once it was scattered >> >over the internet (DeCSS anyone?). >> >> I've had massive amounts of discussions with myself about that very >> thing. >[...] > >A question I've been discussing with myself is what sort of >development would give us a post-doomsday Internet? It's happening right now. There's a guy in Australia who is learning how to build a CPU (a proper CPU--WARNING! BIAS ALERT). That is going to be key, too. You have to assume that a CPU developer can't be as complex as Intel (where a lot of people and things have to all be working well without error). I'd like to see an effort in South America, Asia (at least two places) and Europe. I would also like to not-see the hams disappear. > >I think a lot of the flaws rightfully pointed out in the various >scenarios are inherent in computers becoming rare, possibly >valuable, artifacts. One of the factors in the 20/21 cen. explosion >in computer use has been the economics of increasing returns, >when each individual PC (or phone, or fax machine) becomes more >valuable as the number of units increases. Unfortunately, >this cuts in both directions. I think it's at least plausible >that the massive computing power we take for granted just won't >be very important to post-doomsday societies, except in rare >instances, like the example of a CAD system used to design a >better boat, given the available resources. Nope. The problem with today's technology is that no human being can repair it without getting really, really small. A doomsday bootstrap of the net is going to have to be on gear that somebody can fix so we're talking starting out with big gear again which implies that the software used will not be that which sux. Take another look at the thread drifting we had when we were yakking about a computer the size of a football field (PC in transitors or something like that). I think it happened 1-1/2 to 2 years ago in this (oops!) a.f.c. newsgroup. > >A post-doomsday Internet sounds like a contradiction. (I'm >not referring to its ability to survive a massive attack; >I mean the ability to survive indefinitely in spite of >who knows what? world domination by couch potato memes?) >Maybe it is, maybe not. > >There was an Analog novelette(?) ages ago where the good guys >lived without factories, pollution, etc. but with modern >technology by growing or raising genmod plants and animals >for radios, knives, bulldozers, etc. I think it was intended >to be humorous, but maybe that is how it could be possible. >(Maybe that is the only way.) It is the only way for those couch potatos. Virgins, fairy tales and inside straights also have similar possibilities. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 07 Jul 03 10:59:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZucp2CZsWtwrHJuuJTV4+0XeJyts8HANn/Oe2H+smZxdrSeaJsBWz+ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jul 2003 13:06:25 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144226 In article <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com>, proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) wrote: > wrote: > > >> Story? How do you think sources of programs that were crucial >> to a business got lost? > > >I don't think it was a case of planing to delete the sources, it was >more a case of failing to plan. The set I'm thinking about didn't fall under that. The sources were lost because nobody noticed when they got deleted. They were backed up religiosly with a full save of the disk; they were "stored" in fire storage. The problem was that their absence also got "stored"; the old media was replaced with new to ensure readability. It was all very carefully planned and nobody saw the flaw until two years after the bits were deleted when the perfectly working program had to be recompiled. > .. However, in a culture that used binary >patches, the source may have become I relevant anyway. That's why I always fought for sources. The temptation of "fixing" the binary tape and having a mental note to do the sources after today's crisis is over is too strong. > >They were put on mag tape, the operator mistakenly mounted them and zap. >Several operating systems had _no_ respect for labels if the program >called for an unlabeled tape. The one I'm thinking about had everything working and automatic with a small flaw in that the absence of bits went unnoticed for a very long time. You don't notice if your sources are gone until you need to recompile the them. If your program works well for years, there's no need to recompile. > >I was in a major NYC money center bank in a computing facility, when I >told the guy I needed to be sure to keep the data for 3 years, (it was >for the IRS) he looked at me like I was from another world. Well, you were from another world; we call it reality. Only 3 years? > >Disk crashes for sure, in more recent times. A restore after a disk crash only restores what was saved. Even if you think you saved everything, you haven't :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 07 Jul 03 11:01:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F0917E2.7A538B9@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYboFNMR1DWt3C85GFhYp6Ygp0VrzeLZJV6e2+dscYqtHDKj43vMY7r X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jul 2003 13:08:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144229 In article <3F0917E2.7A538B9@popd.ix.netcom.com>, Bill Woods wrote: >Christopher M. Jones wrote: > >> "Darren J Longhorn" wrote: >> > On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:25 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones" >> > wrote: >> > >Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best >> > >you can get is an active system which continuously >> > >repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds >> > >of the error detection / correction system to handle >> > >them). >> > >> > It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >> > etched all the way through them with a laser? >> >> Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean >> that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the >> Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to >> destroy your information no matter how you try to save >> it. You need something living to keep pumping in >> negative entropy to keep your information around for an >> indefinite period of time. Preferably something that >> can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems / >> organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you >> can do is create storage systems designed for certain >> non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best. > >Okay, for that you need von Neumann machines >which will spread throughout the universe, >reproducing themselves and their included archive. There was a scifi book about just that and what happens if one flaw occurs. I think it was by the author of those Ganymede books. If I think of it, I'll try to look for it in my book piles. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 07 Jul 03 12:56:17 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F0917E2.7A538B9@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3f09801c$0$24377$45beb828@newscene.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbckGzmeJIn1CJQ1AkcN7/lIBxIZnbiFeaHVIXyJYOPNo3bKQz8CvVX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Jul 2003 15:03:12 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-255-41 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144196 In article <3f09801c$0$24377$45beb828@newscene.com>, "gezn2" wrote: > > wrote in message news:bebrci$fum$7@bob.news.rcn.net... >> There was a scifi book about just that and what happens if >> one flaw occurs. I think it was by the author of those >> Ganymede books. If I think of it, I'll try to look for it >> in my book piles. >> >Code of the lifemaker by James P. Hogan Thank you very much :-). That's it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "gezn2" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 7 Jul 2003 09:16:30 -0500 Lines: 49 Message-ID: <3f09801c$0$24377$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F0917E2.7A538B9@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144239 wrote in message news:bebrci$fum$7@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <3F0917E2.7A538B9@popd.ix.netcom.com>, > Bill Woods wrote: > >Christopher M. Jones wrote: > > > >> "Darren J Longhorn" wrote: > >> > On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:25 -0500, "Christopher M. Jones" > >> > wrote: > >> > >Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best > >> > >you can get is an active system which continuously > >> > >repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds > >> > >of the error detection / correction system to handle > >> > >them). > >> > > >> > It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines > >> > etched all the way through them with a laser? > >> > >> Note the "in perpetuity". When I say that I really mean > >> that. I mean *forever*, 'till the heat death of the > >> Universe. Quantum mechanincs and entropy are going to > >> destroy your information no matter how you try to save > >> it. You need something living to keep pumping in > >> negative entropy to keep your information around for an > >> indefinite period of time. Preferably something that > >> can repair itself as well. Even then, such systems / > >> organisms are not invulnerable or immortal. All you > >> can do is create storage systems designed for certain > >> non-infinite lifetimes and hope for the best. > > > >Okay, for that you need von Neumann machines > >which will spread throughout the universe, > >reproducing themselves and their included archive. > > There was a scifi book about just that and what happens if > one flaw occurs. I think it was by the author of those > Ganymede books. If I think of it, I'll try to look for it > in my book piles. > Code of the lifemaker by James P. Hogan --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.495 / Virus Database: 294 - Release Date: 6/30/2003 ###### From: Eric Sosman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:36:55 -0400 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3F09CBD7.B26A9C77@sun.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: Eric.Sosman@Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: tardis.east.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news1brm.Central.Sun.COM 1057606615 10587 129.148.168.113 (7 Jul 2003 19:36:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news1brm.central.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:36:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79C-CCK-MCD [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!feed.news.qwest.net!namche.sun.com!news1brm.central.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144283 stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote: > > How do you distinguish between your example, where a knowledgeable > person does something apparently dangerous, and mine, when a > confident person says that he knows what he's doing, but doesn't? You don't. "Lasciate omni speranza" seems a reasonable summary of this paper: http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html -- Eric.Sosman@sun.com ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 03 11:03:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb4a3IgrFHKCF704tG2QBiRtLm4Q8IBATAUsqMw8YamdQgfNhiotiOg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 2003 13:10:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-190 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144369 In article , pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote: >In article , >George William Herbert wrote: >>Darren J Longhorn wrote: >>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>>etched all the way through them with a laser? >> >>Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >>the laser... >> >>The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter >>if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be. >> >>So stone and most ceramics are out. >> >>Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, >>are good choices. >> >>Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been >>proposed as one method which would last a long time. >> >>But they presume microscopes to read them with. > >I was looking for some way to archive your personal stuff so that it could >be recovered 20 years later if need be. Post-holocaust compatibility >is not necessary, but ability to survive being forgotten about for a >decade *is*. Exactly. It's neat that the one design will solve two problems :-). > .. No matter how many CD-ROM backups you make, if you forget >about them they will all go bad in a matter of years, or so claim the >pessimists. At least, unreadable. There's a difference. > >I like the idea of the metal disk backup, though. Even ifyou couldn't >buy the same equipment 10 years later, as long as someone, somewhere >ran a service that transfered old archives to modern media, you should be >OK. This is the assumption that people make: Somebody will run a service. Bad assumption. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 03 12:34:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> <3f0abd02.78124995@news.eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbrJ4wly2KdOVgRoMQlB2XDzwKS5RiiHoE16ky6V4nc3ioC72Cv7yp4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jul 2003 14:42:01 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-42 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144351 In article <3f0abd02.78124995@news.eircom.net>, wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote: >On Mon, 07 Jul 03 10:59:28 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>A restore after a disk crash only restores what was saved. Even >>if you think you saved everything, you haven't :-). > >*nods* > >That's one of the reasons I'm so fond of using write-once media like >CD-R for backup. It's not necessary that I've remembered to save a >file on my current backup disks, only that I've done so on at least >one occasion in the past. Something, or somebody, has to remember to _explicitly_ reference that file. A wildcard save says "save everything that's there" but it doesn't ensure that everything is there. I muttered for years around this problem. The only thing I could do was to use our build procedures to verify that all components existed. We "lost" KASER.MAC (the original). Even though the file was there, it's contents had been changed (by design) to emulate KA-floating point on a KL. I never figure out how to solve that one. IF (note the big IF) the contents of the file is never to be changed, then I could do a FILCOM of it. But, thanks to our lawyers, contents had to be changed to reflect this year in the copyright statement. Gawd...did that one give me the heebie-jeebies since we all knew that even a change in a comment would change other places of the file (Murphy Law of some flavor). We're talking about collections of bits older than my fingernail. Nobody knows if they're good. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:56:43 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA Lines: 38 Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com X-Trace: pcls4.std.com 1057622203 16175 199.172.62.241 (7 Jul 2003 23:56:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@TheWorld.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:56:43 +0000 (UTC) X-no-archive: no X-no-markup: yes Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!nntp.TheWorld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144332 In article , George William Herbert wrote: >Darren J Longhorn wrote: >>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>etched all the way through them with a laser? > >Put the brittle materials down, off your list, and step away from >the laser... > >The long term archival material cannot be something which can shatter >if handled roughly. Because, eventually, it will be. > >So stone and most ceramics are out. > >Metals that don't corrode... nickel, iridium, platinum, gold, etc, >are good choices. > >Laser micro-etched small coin-sized iridium disks have been >proposed as one method which would last a long time. > >But they presume microscopes to read them with. I was looking for some way to archive your personal stuff so that it could be recovered 20 years later if need be. Post-holocaust compatibility is not necessary, but ability to survive being forgotten about for a decade *is*. No matter how many CD-ROM backups you make, if you forget about them they will all go bad in a matter of years, or so claim the pessimists. I like the idea of the metal disk backup, though. Even ifyou couldn't buy the same equipment 10 years later, as long as someone, somewhere ran a service that transfered old archives to modern media, you should be OK. -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "Mundus Vult Decipi" | ("The world wants to be deceived") | --James Branch Cabell ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:03:43 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f0a0218.18025635@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F09CBD7.B26A9C77@sun.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144333 Eric Sosman wrote: >stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote: >> >> How do you distinguish between your example, where a knowledgeable >> person does something apparently dangerous, and mine, when a >> confident person says that he knows what he's doing, but doesn't? > > You don't. "Lasciate omni speranza" seems a reasonable >summary of this paper: What is this in English, please? I could not find a Latin-English translation Web page. > http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html Great reading! Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 04:58:37 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: <3eckgvk02kgus0tnonbae0m5rg4fdejs47@4ax.com> Cancel-Lock: sha1:zxNSejpLf6/61agoW6Uz+47SWA0= References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F09CBD7.B26A9C77@sun.com> <3f0a0218.18025635@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Date: 08 Jul 2003 04:58:44 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1057633124 news.xs4all.nl 49117 80.127.198.243:3675 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144575 On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:03:43 GMT, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > Eric Sosman wrote: > > >stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote: > >> > >> How do you distinguish between your example, where a knowledgeable > >> person does something apparently dangerous, and mine, when a > >> confident person says that he knows what he's doing, but doesn't? > > > > You don't. "Lasciate omni speranza" seems a reasonable > >summary of this paper: > > What is this in English, please? I could not find a > Latin-English translation Web page. It's old Tuscan with a spelling mistake. Quote from Dante's 'Inferno': 'Lasciate ogni speranza, voi che entrate' / 'Abandon all[more literally: each] hope, you who enter'. Giles. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 05:04:36 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:qPWGHuwjzFtlmF/iiJ4T7dFMEOw= References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Date: 08 Jul 2003 05:04:43 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1057633483 news.xs4all.nl 49101 80.127.198.243:3683 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!news2.euro.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144581 On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:56:43 +0000 (UTC), pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote: > I was looking for some way to archive your personal stuff so that it could > be recovered 20 years later if need be. Post-holocaust compatibility > is not necessary, but ability to survive being forgotten about for a > decade *is*. Listen, when I am dead, I want to be forgotten about. It's embarrassing enough being remembered while I am alive. And you can forget all my deeds as well. OK? Giles. ###### From: Bill Woods Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 22:56:11 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> Reply-To: wwoods@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.cf.59 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 8 Jul 2003 05:53:05 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-pas-nf2!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144413 Erik Max Francis wrote: > Bill Woods wrote: > > > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? > > Nothing. It's a goofy country name that people like to hijack for > totally unrelated purposes. Other popular ones lately are .cc and .cx. "Hijack" seems unfair; they're paying the going rate. -- Bill Woods Here's a thought: When the World Bank is finished with Chad, it should come to California, whose public finances these days resemble those of a Third World corruption pit more than those of a modern, presumably enlightened, industrial society. http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/columns/walters/story/6944770p-7894047c.html ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:23:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:25:52 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-PkMMm2K2QWWE3lBD/f/hBT4BuKexV5SyJYjl7Ll/0CirkHyUEwk6QeqoPOI3mYryEvSodd90zu+H2XC!9WLJv0YD1R7+CXB9z2NtJjMzvupdWoTWDAllAaZShojq10bIIXnWBIXIHj0JrwB7pnifnuYgFdn5!6uUY X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144323 Bill Woods wrote: > "Hijack" seems unfair; they're paying the going rate. By "hijack" I meant use for something other than their clear intended purpose. I doubt there's too many people using .cx domains that actually live, or have anything to do, with Christmas Island. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ There are countless planets, like many island Earths ... \__/ Konstantin Tsiolkovsky ###### From: Michael Ash Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:27:32 -0500 Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.203 User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uwm.edu!mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144375 In article <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Bill Woods wrote: > > > "Hijack" seems unfair; they're paying the going rate. > > By "hijack" I meant use for something other than their clear intended > purpose. I doubt there's too many people using .cx domains that > actually live, or have anything to do, with Christmas Island. Their clear intended purpose is for use by Christmas Island. If they want to turn around and sell them to silly foreigners willing to pay money for a small collection of ASCII characters, I wouldn't call that "hijacking". ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:28:21 -0500 Message-ID: <3F0A6525.CDDF7C90@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:31:01 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-o2YnXzVz9YT2iOMJVmGRZoQvpeFK6d5hFZq/pWSOfMRoFAEs+/T1p2XTScquANpNfGVp5d5K8dxBeJu!9n34K7VzvTDUiH2WDKmoOHUtU1ZtQpH58P+qJ4FBBq7aVbMCxZUeU/uunDhLZzUZ8+e/yo5DhSuz!Fr43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144327 Michael Ash wrote: > Their clear intended purpose is for use by Christmas Island. If they > want to turn around and sell them to silly foreigners willing to pay > money for a small collection of ASCII characters, I wouldn't call that > "hijacking". I never said it was a crime against humanity. I do, however, find it annoying. It's trendy for some reason, but it's not very clever. At least there's an obvious mnemonic reason for .tv; the others make no sense whatsoever. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ There are countless planets, like many island Earths ... \__/ Konstantin Tsiolkovsky ###### Message-ID: <3F0A69DB.4765@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> From: "H. E. Taylor" Organization: Organization? What organization?! X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:51:07 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.187.72.92 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 1057639864 66.187.72.92 (Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:51:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:51:04 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144412 In article , Giles Todd wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:56:43 +0000 (UTC), pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul > Ciszek) wrote: >> >> I was looking for some way to archive your personal stuff so that it could >> be recovered 20 years later if need be. Post-holocaust compatibility >> is not necessary, but ability to survive being forgotten about for a >> decade *is*. > > Listen, when I am dead, I want to be forgotten about. It's > embarrassing enough being remembered while I am alive. > > And you can forget all my deeds as well. > > OK? > Well if the great ghod perversity is listening, that should just about guarantee your being resuscitated about the year 3000. -het -- "It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and reality of tomorrow." - Robert Goddard Home of the PV FAQ: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/ ###### From: wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <3f0abd02.78124995@news.eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 12:48:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.106.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1057668459 159.134.106.193 (Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:47:39 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:47:39 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144379 On Mon, 07 Jul 03 10:59:28 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >A restore after a disk crash only restores what was saved. Even >if you think you saved everything, you haven't :-). *nods* That's one of the reasons I'm so fond of using write-once media like CD-R for backup. It's not necessary that I've remembered to save a file on my current backup disks, only that I've done so on at least one occasion in the past. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address. http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:55:48 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1fxrwhp.ilw5yhlpfeoqN%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3F085196.B011B237@osu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057679749 16837 166.84.199.79 (8 Jul 2003 15:55:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:55:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca1-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144548 Jim Burns wrote: > There was an Analog novelette(?) ages ago where the good guys > lived without factories, pollution, etc. but with modern > technology by growing or raising genmod plants and animals > for radios, knives, bulldozers, etc. I think it was intended > to be humorous, but maybe that is how it could be possible. > (Maybe that is the only way.) > > Jim Burns And of course, _Dune_ where computers are religiously forbidden and people use mentats instead. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:52:50 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f0a6ad0.44837697@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F09CBD7.B26A9C77@sun.com> <3f0a0218.18025635@news.ocis.net> <3eckgvk02kgus0tnonbae0m5rg4fdejs47@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144340 Giles Todd wrote: >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:03:43 GMT, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) >wrote: > >> Eric Sosman wrote: >> >> >stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote: >> >> >> >> How do you distinguish between your example, where a knowledgeable >> >> person does something apparently dangerous, and mine, when a >> >> confident person says that he knows what he's doing, but doesn't? >> > >> > You don't. "Lasciate omni speranza" seems a reasonable >> >summary of this paper: >> >> What is this in English, please? I could not find a >> Latin-English translation Web page. > >It's old Tuscan with a spelling mistake. Quote from Dante's >'Inferno': 'Lasciate ogni speranza, voi che entrate' / 'Abandon >all[more literally: each] hope, you who enter'. Thank you. I would not agree with your summary. The paper has good data. It explains some of the protest I see against certain courses. I will be passing this along to some instructors I know. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:52:56 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f0a6b5f.44980682@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> <3F0A6525.CDDF7C90@alcyone.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144341 Erik Max Francis wrote: >Michael Ash wrote: > >> Their clear intended purpose is for use by Christmas Island. If they >> want to turn around and sell them to silly foreigners willing to pay >> money for a small collection of ASCII characters, I wouldn't call that >> "hijacking". > >I never said it was a crime against humanity. I do, however, find it >annoying. It's trendy for some reason, but it's not very clever. At >least there's an obvious mnemonic reason for .tv; the others make no >sense whatsoever. If you say .cx ("see-eks") fast, it sounds very close to "sex". With all the acronyms in the words, I am sure that a use could be found for most country codes. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Message-ID: Lines: 36 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:07:50 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.111.136.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1057738504 80.111.136.96 (Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:15:04 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:15:04 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!195.34.132.50.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.chello.at!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144685 In article <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com>, Walter Bushell wrote: > wrote: > > >> Story? How do you think sources of programs that were crucial >> to a business got lost? > > >I don't think it was a case of planing to delete the sources, it was >more a case of failing to plan. However, in a culture that used binary >patches, the source may have become I relevant anyway. > >They were put on mag tape, the operator mistakenly mounted them and zap. >Several operating systems had _no_ respect for labels if the program >called for an unlabeled tape. > >I was in a major NYC money center bank in a computing facility, when I >told the guy I needed to be sure to keep the data for 3 years, (it was >for the IRS) he looked at me like I was from another world. > >Disk crashes for sure, in more recent times. At one PPOE, the Oslo Stock Exchange, the attiture was completely the opposite. They take great pride in having a _complete_ account of all data that has gone past, ever. [since 1818, actually]. They are still sponsoring students to punch old handwritten protocols. They wave a warehouse full of them. The students get first rights to do research on the "fresh" data, many get doctorates from these data. Every day's transactions is written to two tapes, take out to storage as the last action before closedown that day. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> <3F0A6525.CDDF7C90@alcyone.com> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Message-ID: Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:31:51 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.111.136.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1057738505 80.111.136.96 (Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:15:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 10:15:05 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.multikabel.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144687 In article <3F0A6525.CDDF7C90@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis wrote: >Michael Ash wrote: > >> Their clear intended purpose is for use by Christmas Island. If they >> want to turn around and sell them to silly foreigners willing to pay >> money for a small collection of ASCII characters, I wouldn't call that >> "hijacking". > >I never said it was a crime against humanity. I do, however, find it >annoying. It's trendy for some reason, but it's not very clever. At >least there's an obvious mnemonic reason for .tv; the others make no >sense whatsoever. .cx is a pretty good approximation to "as far away as we could possibly get". I would have registered a domain there for this effect if they were not so expensive. -- mrr ###### From: Brian Boutel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> <1057698783snz@dsl.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <1057698783snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:57 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.144.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1057721998 203.96.144.148 (Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:58 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:39:58 NZST Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144647 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > In article <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> > max@alcyone.com "Erik Max Francis" writes: > > >>Bill Woods wrote: >> >> >>>"Hijack" seems unfair; they're paying the going rate. >> >>By "hijack" I meant use for something other than their clear intended >>purpose. I doubt there's too many people using .cx domains that >>actually live, or have anything to do, with Christmas Island. > > > All the same they ARE paying the (or at least a) going rate. > > Christmas Island receives some sort of revenue via the company that's > undertaken to control their IP registry on their behalf. Probably only a > token sum, but all the same much more than they would ever have got, > after overheads, if they were to have handled registrations and IP > infrastructure themselves, especially since they avoid the costs of > international telecommunication for the backhaul to the middle of > "Oceania". > Oceania? That's the other Christmas Island, Kiritimati, part of Kiribati (.ki),in the middle of the Pacific, with no phones or tv, let alone an ISP. Only interesting if you like bone-fishing. Christmas Island (.cx) is an Australian territory in the Indian Ocean, a few hundred km South of Java, a favourite place for refugees trying to get to Oz - until the govt got tough. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 01:23:16 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1fxs1sz.1p87u6bh7coglN%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F08E5F8.FA4FA360@alcyone.com> <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1057728198 3750 166.84.199.79 (9 Jul 2003 05:23:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 05:23:18 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144679 Bill Woods wrote: > Bill Woods > > Here's a thought: When the World Bank is finished with Chad, > it should come to California, whose public finances these days > resemble those of a Third World corruption pit more than those > of a modern, presumably enlightened, industrial society. > > The Californians may have have sinned, but to put the World Bank on their case is IMAO, way too harsh. -- Walter It is difficult to get a man to understand something," wrote Upton Sinclair, "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Walter ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:19:27 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.193.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1057743047 129.142.193.202 (Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:30:47 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:30:47 CEST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144646 "Morten Reistad" skrev i en meddelelse news:ma8feb.cc2.ln@acer... > They are still sponsoring students to punch old handwritten > protocols. They wave a warehouse full of them. The students get first > rights to do research on the "fresh" data, many get doctorates from these > data. > > Every day's transactions is written to two tapes, take out to storage > as the last action before closedown that day. How do they cope with changing tape drives ? (7 track, 9 track, 800 bpi, 6250 bpi, 3480, 3490E, .....) ?? Nico ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 9 Jul 2003 10:59:38 -0700 Organization: Dis- Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144705 Nico de Jong wrote: >How do they cope with changing tape drives ? (7 track, 9 track, 800 bpi, >6250 bpi, 3480, 3490E, .....) ?? One way of dealing with that is to have a upgrade procedure where you keep 2 generations of 'active' tape technologies, and then when you introduce a new one, you take the oldest data set and load all its data up to the new tape technology. Another way is to always keep an archive reading device for older formats, but bit rot and device calibration issues often get in the way of that working. With the skipped generation upload, if we assume that a 'generation' of technology is a factor of two improvement in capacity, and that your datasets are increasing at the same rate as tape technology improves, then the cost of uploading the N-2 generation data to the N generation new tapes works out to 1/4 of the media cost for that generation's current data, on top of the current requirements. Quite affordable all things considered. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:48:56 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:HceZ4MehIEzNAl/1gx0In+WLP6c= References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <3f00721d$1_2@news.iglou.com> <2364.311T2144T9725197@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F09CBD7.B26A9C77@sun.com> <3f0a0218.18025635@news.ocis.net> <3eckgvk02kgus0tnonbae0m5rg4fdejs47@4ax.com> <3f0a6ad0.44837697@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2003 04:49:18 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1057805358 news.xs4all.nl 49100 80.127.198.243:2411 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!newsfeed.bit.nl!diablo.bit.nl!blue.qinip.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144883 On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 18:52:50 GMT, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > Giles Todd wrote: > > >On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:03:43 GMT, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) > >wrote: > > > >> Eric Sosman wrote: > >> > >> >stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu wrote: > >> >> > >> >> How do you distinguish between your example, where a knowledgeable > >> >> person does something apparently dangerous, and mine, when a > >> >> confident person says that he knows what he's doing, but doesn't? > >> > > >> > You don't. "Lasciate omni speranza" seems a reasonable > >> >summary of this paper: > >> > >> What is this in English, please? I could not find a > >> Latin-English translation Web page. > > > >It's old Tuscan with a spelling mistake. Quote from Dante's > >'Inferno': 'Lasciate ogni speranza, voi che entrate' / 'Abandon > >all[more literally: each] hope, you who enter'. > > Thank you. > > I would not agree with your summary. Just in case anyone has not followed the quote marks, that was not my summary of the paper. I merely supplied the translation and the origin of the remark. Serves me right for being a clever dick. Giles. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:02:20 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:R8lLE5wcF+hLL5lBogfiOn0GLII= References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <3F0A69DB.4765@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2003 05:02:29 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1057806149 news.xs4all.nl 49116 80.127.198.243:2414 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144884 On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:51:07 -0700, "H. E. Taylor" wrote: > In article , > Giles Todd wrote: > > > > Listen, when I am dead, I want to be forgotten about. It's > > embarrassing enough being remembered while I am alive. > > > > And you can forget all my deeds as well. > > > > OK? > > > > Well if the great ghod perversity is listening, that should > just about guarantee your being resuscitated about the year 3000. Oh, bugger. > A Usted tambien. Giles. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:08:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1057793359snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1057820925 4843 10.0.0.1 (10 Jul 2003 07:08:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:08:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19aVXm-0001Fy-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:08:43 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144886 In article boutelbNOSPAM@acm.org "Brian Boutel" writes: > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > infrastructure themselves, especially since they avoid the costs of > > international telecommunication for the backhaul to the middle of > > "Oceania". > > > > Oceania? That's the other Christmas Island, Kiritimati, part of Kiribati > (.ki),in the middle of the Pacific, with no phones or tv, let alone an > ISP. Only interesting if you like bone-fishing. > > Christmas Island (.cx) is an Australian territory in the Indian Ocean, a > few hundred km South of Java, a favourite place for refugees trying to > get to Oz - until the govt got tough. That's why I put "Oceania" in quotes to indicate that it might not be the same area to which people have been giving that designation (and neither is it necessarily the area mentioned by Orwell) --- I couldn't remember whether .cx was Indian or Pacific Ocean, and there's an awful lot of sea around those parts :-) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: Coridon Henshaw <(chenshaw@(T References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> <3f0abd02.78124995@news.eircom.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Organisation: Annoyed Sympatico Customer Lines: 23 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:27:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.229.15.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1057822057 64.229.15.201 (Thu, 10 Jul 2003 03:27:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 03:27:37 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144809 wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote in news:3f0abd02.78124995@news.eircom.net: > That's one of the reasons I'm so fond of using write-once media like > CD-R for backup. It's not necessary that I've remembered to save a > file on my current backup disks, only that I've done so on at least > one occasion in the past. Automation can be a big help here. I have a collection of C++ and scripts which creates MD5 hashes for files on the HDDs and those written to CDR. Anything tht is added or changed is appended to a list of files to be written on the next CDR. The code also creates a simple restore database so everything goes back to where it should be should a post-disaster rebuild be necessary. This system is obviously vulnerable to bit-rot as it minimizes the number of copies of any given data. -- "The broad mass of a nation . . . will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one." -- Adolf Hitler | **REGIME CHANGE 2004** Coridon Henshaw / http://www3.sympatico.ca/gcircle/csbh ###### From: "Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <1057793359snz@dsl.co.uk> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:49:12 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.138.81.248 X-Trace: newsfeeds.bigpond.com 1057830045 144.138.81.248 (Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:40:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:40:45 EST Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!newsfeeds.bigpond.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144855 "Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" wrote in message news:1057793359snz@dsl.co.uk... > In article > boutelbNOSPAM@acm.org "Brian Boutel" writes: > > > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > > infrastructure themselves, especially since they avoid the costs of > > > international telecommunication for the backhaul to the middle of > > > "Oceania". > > > > > > > Oceania? That's the other Christmas Island, Kiritimati, part of Kiribati > > (.ki),in the middle of the Pacific, with no phones or tv, let alone an > > ISP. Only interesting if you like bone-fishing. > > > > Christmas Island (.cx) is an Australian territory in the Indian Ocean, a > > few hundred km South of Java, a favourite place for refugees trying to > > get to Oz - until the govt got tough. > > That's why I put "Oceania" in quotes to indicate that it might not be the > same area to which people have been giving that designation (and neither > is it necessarily the area mentioned by Orwell) --- I couldn't remember > whether .cx was Indian or Pacific Ocean, and there's an awful lot of sea > around those parts :-) > And Australia IS part of Oceania (just ask the soccer committes :(( ) I didn't see any hassle with calling Christmas Is part of Oceania. Combat Wombat ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <9u42eb.oet1.ln@acer> <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3F085196.B011B237@osu.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:52:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1057834330 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:52:10 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 04:52:10 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in.superfeed.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144755 On Mon, 07 Jul 03 10:23:23 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <3F085196.B011B237@osu.edu>, Jim Burns wrote: >> >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> In article <6uznjugd0s.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, >>> Neil Franklin wrote: >>There was an Analog novelette(?) ages ago where the good guys >>lived without factories, pollution, etc. but with modern >>technology by growing or raising genmod plants and animals >>for radios, knives, bulldozers, etc. I think it was intended >>to be humorous, but maybe that is how it could be possible. >>(Maybe that is the only way.) > >It is the only way for those couch potatos. Virgins, fairy tales >and inside straights also have similar possibilities. Or did you mean potato couches? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: wallacethinmintr@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <3f0da14b.267666385@news.eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <1fxfeig.1wwco7k1uyoa45N%proto@panix.com> <3F038C5D.CCACF32D@airmail.net> <1fxo9hr.17vq23a14asi60N%proto@panix.com> <3f0abd02.78124995@news.eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:25:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.105.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@eircom.net X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 1057857861 159.134.105.186 (Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:24:21 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:24:21 BST Organization: Eircom.Net http://www.eircom.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:144811 On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:27:37 GMT, Coridon Henshaw <(chenshaw@(T wrote: >Automation can be a big help here. I have a collection of C++ and scripts >which creates MD5 hashes for files on the HDDs and those written to CDR. >Anything tht is added or changed is appended to a list of files to be >written on the next CDR. The code also creates a simple restore database >so everything goes back to where it should be should a post-disaster >rebuild be necessary. > >This system is obviously vulnerable to bit-rot as it minimizes the number >of copies of any given data. *nods* I want to take precautions against bit rot so anytime I'm burning a CD, I fill it up. Just throw copies of whatever onto it until it gets over the 600 megabyte mark, even if it's stuff that hasn't changed since last backup. The more copies, the more likely that at least one will still be readable in ten years should that be needed. -- "Sore wa himitsu desu." To reply by email, remove the small snack from address. http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace ###### From: David Lesher Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:02:12 +0000 (UTC) Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> Reply-To: wb8foz@nrk.com (David Lesher) NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058666532 13165 166.84.1.5 (20 Jul 2003 02:02:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 02:02:12 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news.linkpendium.com!panix!wb8foz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146077 Darren J Longhorn writes: >>Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best >>you can get is an active system which continuously >>repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds >>of the error detection / correction system to handle >>them). >It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >etched all the way through them with a laser? I seem to recall blocks of glass, etched, discussed in "On the Beach"..... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 ###### From: Tom Morley Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:41:46 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.86.44 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 20 Jul 2003 10:41:45 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030314 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146216 David Lesher wrote: > Darren J Longhorn writes: > > >>>Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best >>>you can get is an active system which continuously >>>repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds >>>of the error detection / correction system to handle >>>them). > > >>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>etched all the way through them with a laser? > > > I seem to recall blocks of glass, etched, discussed in "On the Beach"..... > In the long term glass would flow. -- Tom Morley | Same roads morley@math.gatech.edu | Same rights tmorley@mindspring.com | Same rules AIM: DocTDM ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 03 11:22:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY8P7GIOed++4GsESTCtmxxLcfRpDo5RxfzCz3Ba/q2u7h0X9xsG1e7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2003 12:22:30 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!199.184.165.233!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-30 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146470 In article , Tom Morley wrote: > > >David Lesher wrote: >> Darren J Longhorn writes: >> >> >>>>Nothing is truly 100% archival in perpetuity. The best >>>>you can get is an active system which continuously >>>>repairs data errors (before they grow beyond the bounds >>>>of the error detection / correction system to handle >>>>them). >> >> >>>It's not really my thuktun, but how about blocks of stone with lines >>>etched all the way through them with a laser? >> >> >> I seem to recall blocks of glass, etched, discussed in "On the Beach"..... >> > > >In the long term glass would flow. Gawd...not that thread drift. Glass doesn't flow. Go google. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 03 11:25:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbH3/W64BMNUJIaABHZvncIamw2Nre0y9VZD/XP2s9KSmff3us0FFrb X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2003 12:25:16 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-30 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146462 In article , Tom Morley wrote: > > >Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:41:46 -0400 >> Tom Morley wrote: >> >> TM> In the long term glass would flow. >> >> Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. >> > >What do you know. I learn something new every day. >Interesting. > Ain't life just grand? Here's a real piece of amusement. My last physics instructor claimed that it flowed. It was still getting taught as fact in 1985. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:07:49 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 2003 18:56:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i2286.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1058727409 willi.euronet.nl 45373 194.134.216.247:1162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146509 On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:41:46 -0400 Tom Morley wrote: TM> In the long term glass would flow. Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Tom Morley Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:24:21 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.45.5b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 20 Jul 2003 19:24:19 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030314 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146518 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:41:46 -0400 > Tom Morley wrote: > > TM> In the long term glass would flow. > > Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. > Long Run Glass is not a solid -- Tom Morley | Same roads morley@math.gatech.edu | Same rights tmorley@mindspring.com | Same rules AIM: DocTDM ###### Date: 20 Jul 2003 22:52:00 +0200 From: kaih=8qD5ATDmw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science Message-ID: <8qD5ATDmw-B@khms.westfalen.de> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F0A5CFC.E09B52AD@popd.ix.netcom.com> <3F0A63F0.936956BB@alcyone.com> <3F0A6525.CDDF7C90@alcyone.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing X-Newsreader: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh12 R/C435 Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? Lines: 23 X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!news.litech.org!colo.khms.westfalen.de!news.khms.westfalen.de!khms.westfalen.de!kaih Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146473 max@alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis) wrote on 07.07.03 in <3F0A6525.CDDF7C90@alcyone.com>: > Michael Ash wrote: > > > Their clear intended purpose is for use by Christmas Island. If they > > want to turn around and sell them to silly foreigners willing to pay > > money for a small collection of ASCII characters, I wouldn't call that > > "hijacking". > > I never said it was a crime against humanity. I do, however, find it > annoying. It's trendy for some reason, but it's not very clever. At > least there's an obvious mnemonic reason for .tv; the others make no > sense whatsoever. Well, a number of people and businesses in this city use .ms for the locally-obvious reason that that's the car number plate code for this city. Kai -- http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/ "... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it." - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) ###### Date: 20 Jul 2003 23:04:00 +0200 From: kaih=8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Message-ID: <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing X-Newsreader: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh12 R/C435 Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? Lines: 17 X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!green.readfreenews.net!news.readfreenews.net!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!news.litech.org!colo.khms.westfalen.de!news.khms.westfalen.de!khms.westfalen.de!kaih Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146467 haggis_1965@yahoo.despam.com.au (Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)) wrote on 02.07.03 in : > On another note, we have now reached an era where the records of the time > (ie electronic) cant be read by future generations without knowledge of the > current technology. Even microfilm can be read (if it survives) without > knowledge of the way it was made. Adobe files on a CD or hard disk would > take a lot more effort to read, even assuming the hard disk worked or the > CD hadn't degraded. On the other hand, the necessary details are recorded in more places than ever. Kai -- http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/ "... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it." - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) ###### From: Tom Morley Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:59:27 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.8b.f6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 20 Jul 2003 22:59:24 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030314 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146522 Kai Henningsen wrote: > haggis_1965@yahoo.despam.com.au (Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)) wrote on 02.07.03 in : > > >>On another note, we have now reached an era where the records of the time >>(ie electronic) cant be read by future generations without knowledge of the >>current technology. Even microfilm can be read (if it survives) without >>knowledge of the way it was made. Adobe files on a CD or hard disk would >>take a lot more effort to read, even assuming the hard disk worked or the >>CD hadn't degraded. > > > On the other hand, the necessary details are recorded in more places than > ever. > > Kai How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. -- Tom Morley | Same roads morley@math.gatech.edu | Same rights tmorley@mindspring.com | Same rules AIM: DocTDM ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 20 Jul 2003 16:54:28 -0700 Organization: Dis- Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146434 Tom Morley wrote: >> TM> In the long term glass would flow. >> Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. > >Long Run >Glass is not a solid Urban myth. Glass is an amorphous solid. It is not a crystal or polymer, but it is a solid and does not, despite common misconceptions, 'flow' over time. Many of the common beliefs around that come from examination of glass in mideaval cathedral windows. They were made before truly flat modern float glass was available. They tended to have a thicker end and a thinner end. And for various reasons the people installing them usually put the thicker end at the 'bottom'. This was misinterpreted as a gradual flow over long (hundreds of years) time periods. However, there are individual panes within the windows and stained glass assemblies which are thicker on top than on the bottom, having been installed the other way around. Examining the lead holding them all together shows that the glass does not show signs of having flowed or sagged. http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/glass_flow.html http://www.glassnotes.com/WindowPanes.html http://www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/florin.html -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 20 Jul 2003 17:02:08 -0700 Organization: Dis- Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!gail.ripco.com!news-feed.riddles.org.uk!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146438 Tom Morley wrote: >How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or >media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. Keeping in mind that speculating about the state of knowledge at a time that is on the order of 20 times further in the future than the invention of writing was in the past seems somewhat speculative... Unreadable seems to imply that there's no chain of documentation of how to forward translate something. Though there are great volumes of material we are losing over time, we are retaining a far greater total volume with each passing year. You would seem to have to argue for some sort of general collapse of knowledge and civilization and loss of more or less everything, at some point far in the future, for English to go away entirely. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:13:03 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3F1B300F.B4CE6C9C@airmail.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:12:37 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !c8Al1k-VXr2-\X/i%2B (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146431 George William Herbert wrote: > Glass ... does not, despite common misconceptions, > 'flow' over time. > http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/glass_flow.html > http://www.glassnotes.com/WindowPanes.html > http://www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/florin.html > Also: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass ###### From: Tom Morley Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:54:44 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: cf.45.40.a3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 21 Jul 2003 00:54:40 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030314 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146525 George William Herbert wrote: > Tom Morley wrote: > >>How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or >>media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. > > > Keeping in mind that speculating about the state of knowledge at > a time that is on the order of 20 times further in the future > than the invention of writing was in the past seems somewhat > speculative... > > Unreadable seems to imply that there's no chain of documentation > of how to forward translate something. Though there are great > volumes of material we are losing over time, we are retaining > a far greater total volume with each passing year. > > You would seem to have to argue for some sort of general collapse > of knowledge and civilization and loss of more or less everything, > at some point far in the future, for English to go away entirely. > > > -george william herbert > gherbert@retro.com > It doesn't have to go away. It just has to change. -- Tom Morley | Same roads morley@math.gatech.edu | Same rights tmorley@mindspring.com | Same rules AIM: DocTDM ###### Message-ID: <3F1B5E65.EC8469EA@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1058751245 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:34:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:34:05 GMT Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:34:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146550 Tom Morley wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or > media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. > And how long more will I live??? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years??? Doubtful. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: David Lesher Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:09:45 +0000 (UTC) Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> Reply-To: wb8foz@nrk.com (David Lesher) NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058753385 5937 166.84.1.5 (21 Jul 2003 02:09:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:09:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!wb8foz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146472 Tom Morley writes: >In the long term glass would flow. Just do NOT bring this up in alt.folklore.urban, who has gone to such great lengths to debunk this, and is so tired of same, that you may get wacked for even mentioning it. Consult and believe it or choose not to.... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 20 Jul 2003 19:57:39 -0700 Organization: Dis- Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146436 Tom Morley wrote: >George William Herbert wrote: >> Tom Morley wrote: >>>How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or >>>media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. >> >>[...] >> You would seem to have to argue for some sort of general collapse >> of knowledge and civilization and loss of more or less everything, >> at some point far in the future, for English to go away entirely. > >It doesn't have to go away. It just has to change. No, it has to change and there be a gap in the evolution or translation such that it cannot be traced backwards. There are a few written languages we have 'lost', but for the most part, the equivalents exist of the Rosetta Stone, and given that we can work backwards. One of my distant aquaintences claims to know how to read and write cuneoform. Over a period of 200 millenia evolution is going to clearly happen... languages evolve significantly over periods of centuries. But the quantity and quality of stored and retained information is booming; again, you have to posit that there's some sort of 'fall' in which either many or all records are lost, or a gap in which records are not made and in which the language is lost or evolves so much that it's not translatable on the other side. The information density that needs to survive to be able to carry a Rosetta Stone forwards with all the currently known languages on it is less than the contents of a single CD-ROM disk. Most of the surving writings of mankind from older than 200 years ago will all fit on a single hard drive now, or could be laser or electron beam micro-etched on a few iridium disks. Given a large enough set of data, even without the translations record, there will be images to compare with word captions, childrens learning books, etc. from which a sufficiently smart human decendent or even alien would be able to learn the language. So you have to posit truly catastrophic information loss at some point. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: Tom Morley Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:45:59 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.80.3b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 21 Jul 2003 09:45:56 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030314 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146523 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:41:46 -0400 > Tom Morley wrote: > > TM> In the long term glass would flow. > > Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. > What do you know. I learn something new every day. Interesting. ###### From: Tom Morley Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:12:56 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.80.3b Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 21 Jul 2003 10:12:51 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030314 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146517 George William Herbert wrote: > Tom Morley wrote: > >>George William Herbert wrote: >> >>>Tom Morley wrote: >>> >>>>How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or >>>>media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. >>> >>>[...] >>>You would seem to have to argue for some sort of general collapse >>>of knowledge and civilization and loss of more or less everything, >>>at some point far in the future, for English to go away entirely. >> >>It doesn't have to go away. It just has to change. > > > No, it has to change and there be a gap in the evolution > or translation such that it cannot be traced backwards. > > There are a few written languages we have 'lost', > but for the most part, the equivalents exist of the > Rosetta Stone, and given that we can work backwards. > One of my distant aquaintences claims to know how to > read and write cuneoform. > > Over a period of 200 millenia evolution is going to > clearly happen... languages evolve significantly over > periods of centuries. But the quantity and quality of > stored and retained information is booming; again, you > have to posit that there's some sort of 'fall' in which > either many or all records are lost, or a gap in which > records are not made and in which the language is lost > or evolves so much that it's not translatable on the > other side. > > The information density that needs to survive to be > able to carry a Rosetta Stone forwards with all the > currently known languages on it is less than the > contents of a single CD-ROM disk. Most of the surving > writings of mankind from older than 200 years ago will > all fit on a single hard drive now, or could be laser > or electron beam micro-etched on a few iridium disks. > > Given a large enough set of data, even without the > translations record, there will be images to compare > with word captions, childrens learning books, etc. > from which a sufficiently smart human decendent > or even alien would be able to learn the language. > > So you have to posit truly catastrophic information > loss at some point. > > > -george william herbert > gherbert@retro.com > Yes, a gap is necessary. Learning can be lost (and regained!) without the complete loss of physical evidence. - Tom Morley | Same roads morley@math.gatech.edu | Same rights tmorley@mindspring.com | Same rules AIM: DocTDM ###### From: "Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:03:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.138.79.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1058796235 144.138.79.58 (Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:03:55 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 00:03:55 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146563 "George William Herbert" wrote in message news:bffai0$lsd$1@gw.retro.com... > Tom Morley wrote: > >How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or > >media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. > > Keeping in mind that speculating about the state of knowledge at > a time that is on the order of 20 times further in the future > than the invention of writing was in the past seems somewhat > speculative... > > Unreadable seems to imply that there's no chain of documentation > of how to forward translate something. Though there are great > volumes of material we are losing over time, we are retaining > a far greater total volume with each passing year. > > You would seem to have to argue for some sort of general collapse > of knowledge and civilization and loss of more or less everything, > at some point far in the future, for English to go away entirely. > As stated elsethread, it just has to change. Try reading a reel-to-reel tape even 10 years old now. If there hasn't been a conscious decision to upgrade the format, then that record could quite well be lost by now. As I said, electronic archiving for long term storage is something that is only now starting to be addressed. Whilst we HAVE more information now than at any time in the past put together, classifying that information, and being able to retrieve the knowledge that comes out of that classification is a whole new field, that has archivists concerned as to it's long term outcomes. The methodology of conciously copying old archives to newer backup media is something that has merit, but how many organisations are doing that? Not many in my experience. Combat Wombat ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1058798608 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:43:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:43:28 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:43:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146433 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. Does obsidian have a crystaline structure? Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1058798749 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:45:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:45:49 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:45:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146432 Tom Morley wrote: > > How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or > media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. > If intermediate languages are also preserved English would be readible. Think of the Rossetta Stone on sterioids Bob Kolker > ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 21 Jul 2003 12:17:37 -0700 Organization: Retro Aerospace Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 63 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146435 Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\) wrote: >As stated elsethread, it just has to change. Try reading a reel-to-reel tape >even 10 years old now. If there hasn't been a conscious decision to upgrade >the format, then that record could quite well be lost by now. Only in cases where organizations discard all the readers for the media they have, without upgrading media at the time. And really, only truly in cases where everyone in the world loses all the devices able to read the media. There are companies whose whole existence is that they keep one or more of each type of punchcard reader and tape drive ever made, to deal with just such occasions. And when it comes down to it, you can build a high res tape scanner which can go through and decode old tapes the hard way if you have to, by hand if you have to... >As I said, electronic archiving for long term storage is something that is >only now starting to be addressed. Whilst we HAVE more information now than >at any time in the past put together, classifying that information, and >being able to retrieve the knowledge that comes out of that classification >is a whole new field, that has archivists concerned as to it's long term >outcomes. One which the march of technology is rapidly assisting though. As I stated earlier, you can fit most of recorded history prior to the 1800s on a single hard drive now (in terms of writing; images and other data of archaeological sites would be a lot more). In my day job, I routinely sell and install hundreds of times that much storage capacity. There are off the shelf search engine type indexing and data mining tools, and the specific Data Warehousing field which is branching out to merge at the edges with the archival storage fields. What's *hard* is indexing and tracking all the current info flow. The old old data is much smaller volume and more compact. >The methodology of conciously copying old archives to newer backup media is >something that has merit, but how many organisations are doing that? Not >many in my experience. Actually, quite a few. Particularly ones around long enough that they know that tape media sometimes degrade, therefore should be treated as having finite shelf life. Warning: horrifically BOTE math follows. As I stated earlier, if tape generations are a factor of two increase in capacity, if you as an ongoing process load all the N-2 generation data to the new Nth generation of tapes when you purchase them, your media cost per generation is only 25% higher carrying everything forwards than it would be not doing so, and media is a small fraction (quarter to half, typically) of the total archive hardware and software solution cost, so the total project cost impact is only 6-12% of the archive cost on an ongoing basis. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: Steve Hix Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 13:02:54 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.3b1 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!sehix Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146439 In article , "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > > > Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. > > Does obsidian have a crystaline structure? Chip it. Conchoidal fracture...just like manmade glass. It's usually listed has having an amorphous structure, again like glass. ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:32:29 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1fygayx.1nzpth512uq7sqN%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058823154 28041 166.84.199.79 (21 Jul 2003 21:32:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:32:34 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146541 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Tom Morley wrote: > > > > > How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or > > media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. > > > > If intermediate languages are also preserved English would be readible. > > Think of the Rossetta Stone on sterioids > > Bob Kolker > Immagine if the Rossetta Stone turns out to be a King James Bible. Forsooth. -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: "Ash Wyllie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Jul 03 09:33:18 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <1414.333T930T5732954@lr.net> References: X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146723 Gently extracted from the mind of Tennant Stuart; >In article , Tom Morley > wrote: >> George William Herbert wrote: >>> The information density that needs to survive to be >>> able to carry a Rosetta Stone forwards with all the >>> currently known languages on it is less than the >>> contents of a single CD-ROM disk. Most of the surving >>> writings of mankind from older than 200 years ago will >>> all fit on a single hard drive now, or could be laser >>> or electron beam micro-etched on a few iridium disks. >>> Given a large enough set of data, even without the >>> translations record, there will be images to compare >>> with word captions, childrens learning books, etc. >>> from which a sufficiently smart human decendent >>> or even alien would be able to learn the language. >>> So you have to posit truly catastrophic information >>> loss at some point. >> Yes, a gap is necessary. >> Learning can be lost (and regained!) without the complete >> loss of physical evidence. >Doesn't physics & chemistry function as a Rosetta Stone? >A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >is basically only one periodic table of elements. Omnilingual by H. Beam Piper. -ash for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX ###### Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:16:25 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2003 01:01:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0582.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1058835666 willi.euronet.nl 45384 194.134.210.73:1238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146667 On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:43:28 GMT "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: RJK> RJK> RJK> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: RJK> RJK> > RJK> > Bzzt! Urban myth - consider obsidian knives. RJK> RJK> Does obsidian have a crystaline structure? Not unless things have changed since I last looked, it's just a glass. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:16:36 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030721191636.7e52bb41.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2003 01:01:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0582.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1058835669 willi.euronet.nl 45384 194.134.210.73:1238 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146680 On Mon, 21 Jul 03 11:25:07 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> Ain't life just grand? Here's a real piece of amusement. My last JC> physics instructor claimed that it flowed. It was still getting JC> taught as fact in 1985. I wouldn't be surprised to find it being taught as fact now. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:20:35 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust221.tnt5.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1058836412 news.dial.pipex.com 18491 62.188.112.221 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!surfnet.nl!newsfeed.multikabel.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146695 In article , Tom Morley wrote: > George William Herbert wrote: >> The information density that needs to survive to be >> able to carry a Rosetta Stone forwards with all the >> currently known languages on it is less than the >> contents of a single CD-ROM disk. Most of the surving >> writings of mankind from older than 200 years ago will >> all fit on a single hard drive now, or could be laser >> or electron beam micro-etched on a few iridium disks. >> Given a large enough set of data, even without the >> translations record, there will be images to compare >> with word captions, childrens learning books, etc. >> from which a sufficiently smart human decendent >> or even alien would be able to learn the language. >> So you have to posit truly catastrophic information >> loss at some point. > Yes, a gap is necessary. > Learning can be lost (and regained!) without the complete > loss of physical evidence. Doesn't physics & chemistry function as a Rosetta Stone? A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there is basically only one periodic table of elements. Tennant Stuart -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1058836212 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:10:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:10:12 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:10:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146597 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > Not unless things have changed since I last looked, it's just > a glass. Then if the molecules are not bound strongly to their neighbors (which is a characteristic of crystals) why can't they migrate under proper conditions of heat and pressure? If you heat glass, it will flow like a viscous liquid. Why can't slow flow take place because of the force of gravity on the glass? Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1058836925 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:22:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:22:05 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:22:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146590 Tennant Stuart wrote: >> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien > world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there > is basically only one periodic table of elements. Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no necessary connection to their meanings. While there is but one periodic table (which is like an alphabet) there are an astronomical number of combinations. The analogy of language to the periodic table simply does not hold. An alphabet does not determine the syntax, sematics or semiotics of language. One needs at least one live example. The reason why the Rosetta Stone worked was because Greek was a live language (it had living users) at the time. Suppose Greek were as dead as the hieroglypics? Then all would remain non decipherable. That is why the Mayan Codices and Linear B are mysteries. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Riboflavin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:38:54 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Reply-To: "Riboflavin" NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.57.bd.91 X-Server-Date: 22 Jul 2003 02:38:43 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146690 "Combat Wombat (was Andrew)" wrote in message > "George William Herbert" wrote in message > > You would seem to have to argue for some sort of general collapse > > of knowledge and civilization and loss of more or less everything, > > at some point far in the future, for English to go away entirely. > > > > As stated elsethread, it just has to change. Try reading a reel-to-reel tape > even 10 years old now. If there hasn't been a conscious decision to upgrade > the format, then that record could quite well be lost by now. > I can't casually read a reel-to-reel tape right this second, but with a hours work I could find someone who will for a fee (with a quick google search, I found http://www.datarecovery.net/Tape_Recovery.asp who look like they can do it). With a few days to weeks work I could find an old one for sale and fix up a computer of some sort to read from it. With a few weeks to months work, I could dig up the specifications for the tape and assemble a drive from assorted parts from an electronics store (without using any 'proper' parts). This is far less effort and/or than archaeologists spend to recover a few pages of ancient data, so I'd hardly consider obsolete tape formats 'lost' just because you don't happen to have a reel-to-reel tape drive handy. With appropriate expertise and equipment (like that found at data recovery outfits), it's possible to recover bits from an arbitrary tape, even one that has been severely damaged. While doing so is more difficult without knowing the original formats, it's hardly impossible. Very basic decryption techniques combined with basic knowledge of what kind of data should be on the tape can turn the data into something usable (aside from the fact that it's doubtful that old archival formats are completely lost). While certainly not a trivial undertaking, it's certainly not difficult enough to call the data 'lost'. Presume there's a clever military man trying to figure out how to get a one time pad from one location to today. Now, if you know much about encryption, you know that a one-time pad provides absolutely secure communications as long as a third party doesn't have a copy of the pad. Why don't you think that any of these clever military man have said 'hey, let's put this one time pad on reel-to-reel tape and leave copies lying around"? Or said the same thing replacing reel-to-reel tape with some other, older format that's not in use? Or craftily made up a tape format that no one else has a reader for? -- Kevin Allegood ribo@mindspring.com "Personally, I hold by the Clarke - Sturgeon law: 90% of any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from crap." - Larry Lennhoff ###### From: Des Kavanagh <"deskavanagh-AT("@)earthlink-DOT(.)net> Reply-To: none Organization: none X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 03:15:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.75.22.203 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1058843743 67.75.22.203 (Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:15:43 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:15:43 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.sunrise.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146614 The security of a one time pad is inversely proportional to the amount of number crunching resources that can be devoted to cracking it. Add in a particularly talented cryptologist cum code writer, or a working pair? Riboflavin wrote: > > "Combat Wombat (was Andrew)" wrote in > message > > "George William Herbert" wrote in message > > > You would seem to have to argue for some sort of general collapse > > > of knowledge and civilization and loss of more or less everything, > > > at some point far in the future, for English to go away entirely. > > > > > > > As stated elsethread, it just has to change. Try reading a reel-to-reel > tape > > even 10 years old now. If there hasn't been a conscious decision to > upgrade > > the format, then that record could quite well be lost by now. > > > I can't casually read a reel-to-reel tape right this second, but with a > hours work I could find someone who will for a fee (with a quick google > search, I found http://www.datarecovery.net/Tape_Recovery.asp who look like > they can do it). With a few days to weeks work I could find an old one for > sale and fix up a computer of some sort to read from it. With a few weeks to > months work, I could dig up the specifications for the tape and assemble a > drive from assorted parts from an electronics store (without using any > 'proper' parts). This is far less effort and/or than archaeologists spend to > recover a few pages of ancient data, so I'd hardly consider obsolete tape > formats 'lost' just because you don't happen to have a reel-to-reel tape > drive handy. > > With appropriate expertise and equipment (like that found at data recovery > outfits), it's possible to recover bits from an arbitrary tape, even one > that has been severely damaged. While doing so is more difficult without > knowing the original formats, it's hardly impossible. Very basic decryption > techniques combined with basic knowledge of what kind of data should be on > the tape can turn the data into something usable (aside from the fact that > it's doubtful that old archival formats are completely lost). While > certainly not a trivial undertaking, it's certainly not difficult enough to > call the data 'lost'. > > Presume there's a clever military man trying to figure out how to get a one > time pad from one location to today. Now, if you know much about encryption, > you know that a one-time pad provides absolutely secure communications as > long as a third party doesn't have a copy of the pad. Why don't you think > that any of these clever military man have said 'hey, let's put this one > time pad on reel-to-reel tape and leave copies lying around"? Or said the > same thing replacing reel-to-reel tape with some other, older format that's > not in use? Or craftily made up a tape format that no one else has a reader > for? > -- > Kevin Allegood ribo@mindspring.com > "Personally, I hold by the Clarke - Sturgeon law: > 90% of any sufficently advanced technology is > indistinguishable from crap." - Larry Lennhoff ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 22:51:52 -0500 Message-ID: <3F1CB5F1.63A1D7C9@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:56:33 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-oBfjTUIBtfeRGTMUulpgXJksvmlZ8Vmx/3k13QGNDv4PsYR7GbqS/iIXiYASvAfVSXlKpM7/uskrMIu!MaG4CzoZwvpS25jgtgV0+cGaG/OoyJkbxTSmWkDdaN8gng4PmsLAq6pELISu8j+fqO/DGDxBbGQd!kP7c X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146588 Des Kavanagh wrote: > The security of a one time pad is inversely proportional to the amount > of number crunching resources that can be devoted to cracking it. Add > in > a particularly talented cryptologist cum code writer, or a working > pair? Um, do you know what a one time pad is? -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ They love too much that die for love. \__/ (an English proverb) ###### Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 07:01:09 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030722070109.4b5f108d.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2003 16:08:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p2515.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1058890117 willi.euronet.nl 10836 194.134.217.220:1263 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!ircam.fr!news.completel.fr!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146677 On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 01:10:12 GMT "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: RJK> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: RJK> RJK> > RJK> > Not unless things have changed since I last looked, it's just RJK> > a glass. RJK> RJK> Then if the molecules are not bound strongly to their neighbors RJK> (which is a characteristic of crystals) why can't they migrate under RJK> proper conditions of heat and pressure? If you heat glass, it will RJK> flow like a viscous liquid. Why can't slow flow take place because of RJK> the force of gravity on the glass? No doubt they can migrate under proper conditions of heat and pressure - the stuff will melt after all. But it does not flow. For more information - google, library whatever. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Per Andersson Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:58:07 +0200 Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3F1CEE8F.6000900@foi.se> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: custos.foi.se (150.227.16.253) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1058861436 15660411 150.227.16.253 (16 [114048]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!custos.foi.SE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146703 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > > > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >> >> Not unless things have changed since I last looked, it's just >> a glass. > > > Then if the molecules are not bound strongly to their neighbors (which > is a characteristic of crystals) why can't they migrate under proper > conditions of heat and pressure? If you heat glass, it will flow like a > viscous liquid. Why can't slow flow take place because of the force of > gravity on the glass? > > Bob Kolker > The strength of the bond has nothing to do with the question if a material is a crystal or amorphous. A more proper division is between solids and fluids. A fluid is a material without a shear modulus (or a shear modulus equal to 0). This means that a fluid will deform under an infinitesimal force. An amorphous material can have a shear modulus different from zero and is therefor a solid. The reason that materials flow when heated is that they melt, that is undergoes a phase transition to a fluid state. This will happen independent of the existense of a crystalline order. Even in a crystal the atoms (or ions) will move around quite a lot below the melting point making the material ductile (soft if you like) but it will not flow. Amorphous materials are not "frozen fluids", rather solids without crystal order. /Per PhD in Condensed matter theory ( <- just for reference ) ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> <3F1CEE8F.6000900@foi.se> In-Reply-To: <3F1CEE8F.6000900@foi.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1058879780 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:16:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:16:20 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:16:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!proxad.net!216.166.71.118.MISMATCH!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146589 Per Andersson wrote: > The reason that materials flow when heated is that they melt, > that is undergoes a phase transition to a fluid state. This > will happen independent of the existense of a crystalline order. > Even in a crystal the atoms (or ions) will move around quite > a lot below the melting point making the material ductile > (soft if you like) but it will not flow. Amorphous materials > are not "frozen fluids", rather solids without crystal order. Thank you sir, for the brief lesson on the fluid state. Bob Kolker ###### From: ribo@mindspring.com (Riboflavin) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Jul 2003 07:23:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 36 Message-ID: <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.33.49.251 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1058883825 31286 127.0.0.1 (22 Jul 2003 14:23:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2003 14:23:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146699 Des Kavanagh <"deskavanagh-AT("@)earthlink-DOT(.)net> wrote in message news: Riboflavin wrote: > > > > Presume there's a clever military man trying to figure out how to get a one > > time pad from one location to today. Now, if you know much about encryption, > > you know that a one-time pad provides absolutely secure communications as > > long as a third party doesn't have a copy of the pad. Why don't you think > > that any of these clever military man have said 'hey, let's put this one > > time pad on reel-to-reel tape and leave copies lying around"? Or said the > > same thing replacing reel-to-reel tape with some other, older format that's > > not in use? Or craftily made up a tape format that no one else has a reader > > for? > The security of a one time pad is inversely proportional to the amount > of number crunching resources that can be devoted to cracking it. Add in > a particularly talented cryptologist cum code writer, or a working pair? > You appear to be unfamiliar with how a one-time pad works, and I have no idea what your question is trying to ask. Encryption based on a one-time pad is unbreakable with modern computer technology even if you apply all of the computing resources of the world and multiply it by another 10 years of Moore's law, but it requires that sender and reciever both have a copy of the 'pad', know appropriate start and end points, and that no one else have a copy of the pad. A "particularly talented cryptologist" isn't going to be able to come up with a better scheme than 'give a one-time pad to everyone in the scheme, and use a storage method that only the correct people can read'. If a tape format that the other guy doesn't have a reader for is so difficult to read that data stored in it can be considered 'lost' today, then one would expect people interested in secure communications to make use of various strange media formats to send around one-time pads. But they don't. -- Kevin Allegood ribo@mindspring.com "Personally, I hold by the Clarke - Sturgeon law: 90% of any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from crap." - Larry Lennhoff ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:24:02 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.81 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1058910073 205.206.39.81 (Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:41:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 17:41:13 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146620 In article , "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >> >> Not unless things have changed since I last looked, it's just >> a glass. > >Then if the molecules are not bound strongly to their neighbors (which >is a characteristic of crystals) Another characteristic is a regular periodic structure. That's what lets out glass. Regards. Mel. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:32:15 -0500 Message-ID: <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:35:45 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-ECtYiAb37kNqEZBZ2pJyJhLB/07mFSt6v/sAzkr/7GAPywbkru013hsD5KjLCt0NeaIlZjV8M1IBOML!bBukYwBaVfuBIO/21g7LDH1hm2BaypzVuKaTJCCsuK9wRc8wzQAR23qLjp2zSEszZ/OK4CgCrUaZ!uEk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146580 Riboflavin wrote: > You appear to be unfamiliar with how a one-time pad works, and I have > no idea what your question is trying to ask. Encryption based on a > one-time pad is unbreakable with modern computer technology even if > you apply all of the computing resources of the world and multiply it > by another 10 years of Moore's law, but it requires that sender and > reciever both have a copy of the 'pad', know appropriate start and end > points, and that no one else have a copy of the pad. And some other implied criteria, like the source of random data for generating the one time pad is cryptographically strong and that the one time pads are never reused. It was precisely a flaw in the Soviet Union's use of one time pads in the latter sense -- they accidentally reused pads -- that led to Venona. If a one time pad is created and used properly, it is truly unbreakable. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ When angry, count four; when very angry, swear. \__/ Mark Twain ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:35:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3F1D84B0.FC212A1F@alcyone.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:38:40 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-vlvyhSKTH9cz4TFDbHSiF3JWqZ5zaoUfC5y2UeR2rR0v5XHK291i4BcPHJZ6Sx2dVxawDdsy29VVozK!wVibkxyFV4M/zRBtueGv4zhusDrt8x4o/KxailA8i0AuX2uJQmp/QOhu0rXVkfbqTP94RIIeoOlt!w8wm X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146586 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Then if the molecules are not bound strongly to their neighbors (which > is a characteristic of crystals) why can't they migrate under proper > conditions of heat and pressure? If you heat glass, it will flow like > a > viscous liquid. Why can't slow flow take place because of the force of > gravity on the glass? Yes, if you heat glass enough, it flows like a liquid, but that's because it melts and _becomes_ a liquid. But that's because of a state change (glass melts and becomes liquid), not because amorphous solids inherently flow over long periods of time. If you heat ice, it flows like water, too, and ice is crystalline. Over truly long periods of time -- much longer than the age of the Universe -- you can consider all materials to be liquid because they will settle to the lowest energy state due to quantum mechanical tunnelling, but that takes truly impressive periods of time. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ When angry, count four; when very angry, swear. \__/ Mark Twain ###### From: stanislav shalunov Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Followup-To: sci.crypt Date: 22 Jul 2003 14:46:38 -0400 Organization: Internet2 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <87oezm7629.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: basie.internet2.edu X-Trace: pith.uoregon.edu 1058900273 8761 207.75.164.22 (22 Jul 2003 18:57:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.uoregon.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:57:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146657 Erik Max Francis writes: > And some other implied criteria, like the source of random data for > generating the one time pad is cryptographically strong [...] To qualify for the name ``one-time pad'' you must use random data. Not pseudo-random. The term ``cryptographically strong'' is used to denote pseudo-random data that looks like random data---to the degree that it is computationally infeasible to distinguish it from random data. Cryptographically strong pseudo-random data is still pseudo-random, not random. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed in boustrophedon. ###### From: stanislav shalunov Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Jul 2003 14:51:59 -0400 Organization: Internet2 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87k7aa75tc.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> <3F1D84B0.FC212A1F@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: basie.internet2.edu X-Trace: pith.uoregon.edu 1058900595 8761 207.75.164.22 (22 Jul 2003 19:03:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.uoregon.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:03:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146660 Erik Max Francis writes: > Yes, if you heat glass enough, it flows like a liquid, but that's > because it melts and _becomes_ a liquid. I understand that glass does not flow (fast or slow) under normal conditions and when it is sufficiently hot it will melt and flow. For crystalline solids, there's usually a specific temperature when they melt---and a reasonably sharp distinction between liquid and solid states. Is this true for amorphous bodies, too, or does glass melt gradually at temperatures that vary from 500 to 1000C for typical chemical compositions? I believe the viscosity of molten glass decreases as temperature rises---or that's how it feels, at least. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. -- Mark Twain ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:12:54 -0500 Message-ID: <3F1D8D89.980DBCE6@alcyone.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 12:16:25 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> <3F1D84B0.FC212A1F@alcyone.com> <87k7aa75tc.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-bZzu75uTgedYJtJqwRh1usQgn/d4GAgyGTmYw9rtRKWxwec8NyQ9xuh/WSEF3Tz2y4TtoTkbVbIpo6m!M6a4APG1cDBiFO+FXwaD0u2K2KIPcMGhCSu8O2XXjN5cU1SzK4p6mk6NG9ysaELEaHq+A3VHeMmz!zl8j X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!216.166.71.14!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146591 stanislav shalunov wrote: > For crystalline solids, there's usually a specific temperature when > they melt---and a reasonably sharp distinction between liquid and > solid states. Is this true for amorphous bodies, too, or does glass > melt gradually at temperatures that vary from 500 to 1000C for typical > chemical compositions? It depends, like all other melting points, on the purity of the glass. That melting point is somewhere in the 1400-1600 deg C range. > I believe the viscosity of molten glass > decreases as temperature rises---or that's how it feels, at least. Are you in the habit of actually touching materials at 500 or 1000 deg C? :-) -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ You've got me wondering / If you know that I am wondering about you \__/ India Arie ###### From: stanislav shalunov Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Jul 2003 15:24:49 -0400 Organization: Internet2 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <871xwi74am.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> <20030720190749.4287de17.steveo@eircom.net> <20030721191625.242b6347.steveo@eircom.net> <3F1D84B0.FC212A1F@alcyone.com> <87k7aa75tc.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F1D8D89.980DBCE6@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: basie.internet2.edu X-Trace: pith.uoregon.edu 1058902566 8761 207.75.164.22 (22 Jul 2003 19:36:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.uoregon.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 19:36:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146664 Erik Max Francis writes: > > I believe the viscosity of molten glass > > decreases as temperature rises---or that's how it feels, at least. > > Are you in the habit of actually touching materials at 500 or 1000 > deg C? :-) Not in the habit, but I've certainly touched molten glass. With appropriate tools rather than bare hands, of course. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ This message is designed to be viewed at 600 dpi. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 23 Jul 03 09:59:34 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVayh2DldZ0rDbbYRCQOia4vDSCMZYdzHVJ2C/J8FtYuhC9Ce2UMyDkj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2003 11:00:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!propagator2-SanJose!In.nntp.be!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146766 In article , Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02>, "Robert J. Kolker" > wrote: > >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>>> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >>> world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >>> is basically only one periodic table of elements. > >> Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical >> representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks >> on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no >> necessary connection to their meanings. > >It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. Not really. You have to have the written lanugage match the spoken language to do what you want. > > >> While there is but one periodic table (which is like an alphabet) there >> are an astronomical number of combinations. The analogy of language to >> the periodic table simply does not hold. An alphabet does not determine >> the syntax, sematics or semiotics of language. > >Rubbish. You're not thinking like an very intelligent person. Go read a biography of Helen Keller and how much trouble Anne Sullivan had trying to teach prepositions to Helen. > > >> The reason why the Rosetta Stone worked was because Greek was a live >> language (it had living users) at the time. Suppose Greek were as dead >> as the hieroglypics? Then all would remain non decipherable. That is why >> the Mayan Codices and Linear B are mysteries. > >Those are not products of scientific cultures. You don't know that. If we could read what they left, they jsut might be. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:00:02 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust118.tnt1.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1058919079 news.dial.pipex.com 957 62.188.100.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146798 In article <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02>, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Tennant Stuart wrote: >>> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >> world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >> is basically only one periodic table of elements. > Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical > representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks > on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no > necessary connection to their meanings. It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. > While there is but one periodic table (which is like an alphabet) there > are an astronomical number of combinations. The analogy of language to > the periodic table simply does not hold. An alphabet does not determine > the syntax, sematics or semiotics of language. Rubbish. You're not thinking like an very intelligent person. > The reason why the Rosetta Stone worked was because Greek was a live > language (it had living users) at the time. Suppose Greek were as dead > as the hieroglypics? Then all would remain non decipherable. That is why > the Mayan Codices and Linear B are mysteries. Those are not products of scientific cultures. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1058923935 12.237.120.43 (Wed, 23 Jul 2003 01:32:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 01:32:15 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 01:32:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146745 Erik Max Francis wrote: > Riboflavin wrote: > > >>You appear to be unfamiliar with how a one-time pad works, and I have >>no idea what your question is trying to ask. Encryption based on a >>one-time pad is unbreakable with modern computer technology even if >>you apply all of the computing resources of the world and multiply it >>by another 10 years of Moore's law, but it requires that sender and >>reciever both have a copy of the 'pad', know appropriate start and end >>points, and that no one else have a copy of the pad. > > > And some other implied criteria, like the source of random data for > generating the one time pad is cryptographically strong and that the one > time pads are never reused. It was precisely a flaw in the Soviet > Union's use of one time pads in the latter sense -- they accidentally > reused pads -- that led to Venona. > > If a one time pad is created and used properly, it is truly unbreakable. Barring treason or the capture of a pad. But that's a whole other dimension. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:49:18 -0500 Message-ID: <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:54:13 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-7vnUE0lGayFKeTl3wxn4liN3jKqLlEadWsW+KSScO35gIyNICEakMC43bkbJsoKacPd7cGkGVRsy3Zp!RKECvOmUwmkRCh1+sZuR2siZ4kM4H755+o3wuZ4TN+MbSowv4ij7tt0V/MdmaTafdMkgrxg53fwp!Ww1s X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.166.71.118.MISMATCH!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146744 Larry Elmore wrote: > Barring treason or the capture of a pad. But that's a whole other > dimension. No, that's part of the "used properly." -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Many things are lost for want of asking. \__/ (an English proverb) ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1058926875 24.62.143.251 (Wed, 23 Jul 2003 02:21:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 02:21:15 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 02:21:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146752 Larry Elmore wrote: > Barring treason or the capture of a pad. But that's a whole other > dimension. Production, distribution and guarding of the key pairs for the OTP is the main problem. Which is why they are only used in restricted circumstances. For field military use they are unsuitable. Bob Kolker > ###### From: David Lesher Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:47:58 +0000 (UTC) Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Reply-To: wb8foz@nrk.com (David Lesher) NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058932078 3105 166.84.1.5 (23 Jul 2003 03:47:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:47:58 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!wb8foz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146758 Tennant Stuart writes: >Doesn't physics & chemistry function as a Rosetta Stone? >A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >is basically only one periodic table of elements. Short story: Omnilingual by H. Beam Piper 1957 -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 ###### From: David Lesher Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:56:52 +0000 (UTC) Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Reply-To: wb8foz@nrk.com (David Lesher) NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058932612 3105 166.84.1.5 (23 Jul 2003 03:56:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 03:56:52 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca1-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!wb8foz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146757 Des Kavanagh <"deskavanagh-AT("@)earthlink-DOT(.)net> writes: >The security of a one time pad is inversely proportional to the amount >of number crunching resources that can be devoted to cracking it. Add in >a particularly talented cryptologist cum code writer, or a working pair? No. A one time pad offers absolute security. A 100 char message can mean any message <= 100 chars. THIS IS A TEST MESSAGE SENT ON.................................................... THE FIRST US ARMY GROUP ORDER OF BATTLE FOLLOWS................................... LES SANGLOTS LONGS DES VIOLONS, D'AUTOMNE BLESSENT MON COUER D'UNE LANGUEUR MONTONE There is no way to know which unless you have the correct OTP. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Jul 2003 23:45:00 -0700 Organization: Retro Aerospace Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146743 Robert J. Kolker wrote: >Larry Elmore wrote: >> Barring treason or the capture of a pad. But that's a whole other >> dimension. > >Production, distribution and guarding of the key pairs for the OTP is >the main problem. Which is why they are only used in restricted >circumstances. For field military use they are unsuitable. Odd, the military people with CD-ROM burners and drives (and, increasingly, USB flash disks) seem to disagree... Frequency hopping is 'good enough' but there are some things they want better encrypted than that. When you can put a month's worth of one time pad on a CD-ROM, and a month's worth of one time pads for all your subunits on one DVD-ROM for the central command center / communications center, then it's not so hard anymore. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:10:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1058955013 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 23 Jul 2003 04:10:13 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 04:10:13 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146733 On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:59:27 -0400 in alt.folklore.computers, Tom Morley wrote: > > >Kai Henningsen wrote: >> haggis_1965@yahoo.despam.com.au (Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)) wrote on 02.07.03 in : >> >> >>>On another note, we have now reached an era where the records of the time >>>(ie electronic) cant be read by future generations without knowledge of the >>>current technology. Even microfilm can be read (if it survives) without >>>knowledge of the way it was made. Adobe files on a CD or hard disk would >>>take a lot more effort to read, even assuming the hard disk worked or the >>>CD hadn't degraded. >> >> >> On the other hand, the necessary details are recorded in more places than >> ever. >> >> Kai > >How long will (say) English be readable (whatever the format or >media)? 2000 years? Sure. 200,000 years? Doubtful. How readable is Victorian English, Johnson's English, Shakespeare's English, Chaucer's English? 500 years may be reasonable, unless changes continue to accelerate. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:21:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1058955660 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 23 Jul 2003 04:21:00 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 04:21:00 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146809 On 22 Jul 2003 07:23:43 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, ribo@mindspring.com (Riboflavin) wrote: >Des Kavanagh <"deskavanagh-AT("@)earthlink-DOT(.)net> wrote in message news:> Riboflavin wrote: >> > >> > Presume there's a clever military man trying to figure out how to get a one >> > time pad from one location to today. Now, if you know much about encryption, >> > you know that a one-time pad provides absolutely secure communications as >> > long as a third party doesn't have a copy of the pad. Why don't you think >> > that any of these clever military man have said 'hey, let's put this one >> > time pad on reel-to-reel tape and leave copies lying around"? Or said the >> > same thing replacing reel-to-reel tape with some other, older format that's >> > not in use? Or craftily made up a tape format that no one else has a reader >> > for? >> The security of a one time pad is inversely proportional to the amount >> of number crunching resources that can be devoted to cracking it. Add in >> a particularly talented cryptologist cum code writer, or a working pair? >> >You appear to be unfamiliar with how a one-time pad works, and I have >no idea what your question is trying to ask. Encryption based on a >one-time pad is unbreakable with modern computer technology even if >you apply all of the computing resources of the world and multiply it >by another 10 years of Moore's law, but it requires that sender and >reciever both have a copy of the 'pad', know appropriate start and end >points, and that no one else have a copy of the pad. A "particularly >talented cryptologist" isn't going to be able to come up with a better >scheme than 'give a one-time pad to everyone in the scheme, and use a >storage method that only the correct people can read'. If a tape >format that the other guy doesn't have a reader for is so difficult to >read that data stored in it can be considered 'lost' today, then one >would expect people interested in secure communications to make use of >various strange media formats to send around one-time pads. But they >don't. The most common media format for one time pads nowadays is a CD-ROM, containing 650MB of random bits. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1058960136 24.62.143.251 (Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:35:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:35:36 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:35:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146750 George William Herbert wrote: > Frequency hopping is 'good enough' but there are some things > they want better encrypted than that. When you can put a month's > worth of one time pad on a CD-ROM, and a month's worth of one time > pads for all your subunits on one DVD-ROM for the central command > center / communications center, then it's not so hard anymore. > And if the DVD is stolen or copied? And how do you know it has not been copied? Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1058960312 24.62.143.251 (Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:38:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:38:32 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:38:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146749 Brian Inglis wrote: > How readable is Victorian English, Johnson's English, > Shakespeare's English, Chaucer's English? 500 years may be > reasonable, unless changes continue to accelerate. If concordances exist at every stage the early language can be deciphered. It is concardances that link the dead past to the live present. The Rossetta Stone was just such a concardance. If Greek were not a live language at the time of its discovery the Egyptian Hirogylphic and Hieratic would still be mysterious doodlings. Bob Kolker ###### From: David Lesher Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:30:30 +0000 (UTC) Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> Reply-To: wb8foz@nrk.com (David Lesher) NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1058970630 13367 166.84.1.5 (23 Jul 2003 14:30:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:30:30 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!wb8foz Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146761 "Robert J. Kolker" writes: >> Frequency hopping is 'good enough' but there are some things >> they want better encrypted than that. When you can put a month's >> worth of one time pad on a CD-ROM, and a month's worth of one time >> pads for all your subunits on one DVD-ROM for the central command >> center / communications center, then it's not so hard anymore. >> >And if the DVD is stolen or copied? And how do you know it has not been >copied? That is the crux. If stolen, and you know it; just issue an edict voiding same. Compromise en-route is a harder issue. NSA has all kinds of tags/seals/containers addressing same -- iffen you pry it out of the {say} blister pack to copy it, you then must put it back in and make it look untouched. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 23 Jul 2003 11:08:29 -0700 Organization: Retro Aerospace Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146747 Robert J. Kolker wrote: >George William Herbert wrote: >> Frequency hopping is 'good enough' but there are some things >> they want better encrypted than that. When you can put a month's >> worth of one time pad on a CD-ROM, and a month's worth of one time >> pads for all your subunits on one DVD-ROM for the central command >> center / communications center, then it's not so hard anymore. > >And if the DVD is stolen or copied? And how do you know it has not been >copied? Stolen or copied when? Before delivery? You just verify that the delivery of the media to central and subunits went cleanly (with tamper resistant packaging and multiple people accompanying and signing off on the delivery), insert it into a locked drive, and then destroy it after you're done using it using the same multiple person observation and signoff mechanisms. Keypad theft is not an unknown issue, even with such mechanisms in place to prevent it, but since you can use unique keypads for each communications chain (each unit to HQ pairing) the compromise is very limited if that happens. Most serious crypto attacks in history have worked by getting a little bit of data and then unraveling the code and keys and generalizing to all the keyed traffic. In a one pair per channel, one time pad type system you can't 'unravel' anything without a complete pad, and even if you get a complete pad you just get that channel's comms for the period of time it covered. Nothing is perfect. But CD-ROM / DVD-ROM OTPs done right are as close to perfect as we can do right now, and are clearly 'good enough' for nearly all applications. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### Message-ID: <3F1F051C.4DBAC9F7@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1058990535 12.241.15.59 (Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:02:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:02:15 GMT Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:02:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146812 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > Brian Inglis wrote: > > > How readable is Victorian English, Johnson's English, > > Shakespeare's English, Chaucer's English? 500 years may be > > reasonable, unless changes continue to accelerate. > > If concordances exist at every stage the early language can be > deciphered. It is concardances that link the dead past to the live > present. The Rossetta Stone was just such a concardance. If Greek were > not a live language at the time of its discovery the Egyptian > Hirogylphic and Hieratic would still be mysterious doodlings. > But don't forget...it *not* only took a Rosetta stone to decipher heiroglyphics. It took a Champolian to make the "leap of faith" and realize that heiroglyphics were made up of an alphabet, by and large. IIRC, the Rosetta stone was found a few years *before* heiroglyphics were deciphered. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 24 Jul 03 11:38:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZgnjozCjqdUD+aHC3spJ7pXomngfsej12Ii0Jsskzy57OAOGklDWpF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2003 12:39:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-28 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146862 In article , ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >The same is true of language in general, though the puzzle is bigger. > >You start by trying to figure out what is a word. Then you sort words >into groups, based on similarities. For example if: > >X Y Y Z Y and X Y Y A Y both occur frequently, aswell as other words in >the place of Z and A, it's probably true that A and Z are words of the >same type (i.e. they're both verbs or both nouns) Or they could be "Amen!"s. > >It helps a lot if there are pictures. No, it doesn't. I just read a book about ancient technology. We have pictures of boats, but they're on a vase so the dimensions are out of whack. > ..Any product of a human >civilization is very likely to have pictures, simply because seeing is >such an important sense to us. If not, simply where the writings are >found can be enough to give some clue as to the topic of the texts. Take a good hard look at the cave paintings in France. Everybody who is educated to evalutate them mumbles something about religion. Whenever I look at them, I see a school room to teach young males where to aim their spears. > >In short, I have little doubt at all that a human culture, similarily >advanced to us, but without any knowledge of english or related >languages would still be able to make sense of say a modern >encyclopedia. It'd take work, but it'd be more than possible. You are assuming that a modern society is a scientific society or a society that is allowed to use technology as it is developed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1059005967 12.237.120.43 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:19:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:19:27 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:19:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146842 Erik Max Francis wrote: > Larry Elmore wrote: > > >>Barring treason or the capture of a pad. But that's a whole other >>dimension. > > > No, that's part of the "used properly." I think you're really stretching the definition of "used properly" here. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <3F1F051C.4DBAC9F7@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: <3F1F051C.4DBAC9F7@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1059006708 12.237.120.43 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:31:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:31:48 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:31:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146841 Charles Richmond wrote: > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > >>Brian Inglis wrote: >> >> >>>How readable is Victorian English, Johnson's English, >>>Shakespeare's English, Chaucer's English? 500 years may be >>>reasonable, unless changes continue to accelerate. >> >>If concordances exist at every stage the early language can be >>deciphered. It is concardances that link the dead past to the live >>present. The Rossetta Stone was just such a concardance. If Greek were >>not a live language at the time of its discovery the Egyptian >>Hirogylphic and Hieratic would still be mysterious doodlings. >> > > But don't forget...it *not* only took a Rosetta stone to > decipher heiroglyphics. It took a Champolian to make the > "leap of faith" and realize that heiroglyphics were made > up of an alphabet, by and large. IIRC, the Rosetta stone > was found a few years *before* heiroglyphics were deciphered. IIRC, Champollion persisted for a long time in the common belief that hieroglyphics were ideographic. It was only after learning more about the Chinese writing system, which was also incorrectly presumed to be mostly ideographic, that he seriously pursued the alternative. --Larry ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 65 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059008206 12.237.120.43 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:46 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146844 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>In article <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02>, "Robert J. Kolker" >> wrote: >> >> >>>Tennant Stuart wrote: >> >>>>>A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >>>> >>>>world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >>>>is basically only one periodic table of elements. >> >>>Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical >>>representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks >>>on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no >>>necessary connection to their meanings. >> >>It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. > > Not really. You have to have the written lanugage match the spoken > language to do what you want. > >> >>>While there is but one periodic table (which is like an alphabet) there >>>are an astronomical number of combinations. The analogy of language to >>>the periodic table simply does not hold. An alphabet does not determine >>>the syntax, sematics or semiotics of language. >> >>Rubbish. You're not thinking like an very intelligent person. > > Go read a biography of Helen Keller and how much trouble Anne > Sullivan had trying to teach prepositions to Helen. That's right. We can figure out some aspects of an unknown dead language in an ancient script, such as numerals and math, but vast amounts would remain unknowable if we don't even have any idea of what the language was. >>>The reason why the Rosetta Stone worked was because Greek was a live >>>language (it had living users) at the time. Suppose Greek were as dead >>>as the hieroglypics? Then all would remain non decipherable. That is why >>>the Mayan Codices and Linear B are mysteries. >> >>Those are not products of scientific cultures. Mayan writings had a large amount of astronomical and calendrical content. Large parts of that content were figured out decades ago because numbers and math are distinctive. We'd still have no idea what the rest of it said if versions of Mayan weren't spoken today, though. Numbers and math won't help you figure out whether other sequences of characters say "I, Lord Hummingbird, conquered the people of Luseralia, gave their warriors' spirits to the gods. The women and children were enslaved," or, "Marianne told me the Professor invented some kind of 'peelable entertainment' he showed her on their 'hot date' last night. I can't wait to try it out!" > You don't know that. If we could read what they left, they jsut > might be. Actually, I think you could tell that, but not much more. --Larry ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059008799 24.62.143.251 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:06:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:06:39 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:06:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146846 Larry Elmore wrote: > > I think you're really stretching the definition of "used properly" here. Not so. The overall security of an OTP is bounded by the security of the key transmission to the using parties. The key must be transmitted in a totally secure manner. That is, it must never be used if it has been compromised in the transmission, which further means that a clandestine access to the key must absolutely be prevented. It is the difficulty of securing the keys that make the OTP usable only under special circumstance, mostly in in high level diplomatic and policy message exchanges. OTP's are simply not good for field use. That is where public-key, private-key and DES (with a long enough key) come into play. Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <3F1F051C.4DBAC9F7@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059008863 24.62.143.251 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:07:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:07:43 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:07:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146852 Larry Elmore wrote: > IIRC, Champollion persisted for a long time in the common belief that > hieroglyphics were ideographic. It was only after learning more about > the Chinese writing system, which was also incorrectly presumed to be > mostly ideographic, that he seriously pursued the alternative. Be all this as it may, without the Greek the entire translation would have failed. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059009046 24.62.143.251 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:10:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:10:46 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 01:10:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146855 Larry Elmore wrote: > > That's right. We can figure out some aspects of an unknown dead language > in an ancient script, such as numerals and math, but vast amounts would > remain unknowable if we don't even have any idea of what the language was. Some number notations (like roman numerals) suggest their own meaning, but by and large languages are arbitrary encodings of concepts or phonemes. One cannot get a set of arbitrary marks to reveal their own meaning. There is no intrinsic encoding for human thought nor can there be. Bob Kolker ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 23 Jul 2003 20:36:47 -0700 Organization: Retro Aerospace Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 47 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146840 Robert J. Kolker wrote: >Larry Elmore wrote: >> I think you're really stretching the definition of "used properly" here. > >Not so. The overall security of an OTP is bounded by the security of the >key transmission to the using parties. The key must be transmitted in a >totally secure manner. That is, it must never be used if it has been >compromised in the transmission, which further means that a clandestine >access to the key must absolutely be prevented. > >It is the difficulty of securing the keys that make the OTP usable only >under special circumstance, mostly in in high level diplomatic and >policy message exchanges. OTP's are simply not good for field use. That >is where public-key, private-key and DES (with a long enough key) come >into play. The number of pad exchanges you need to have per year for a field unit can approach one, with CD-ROM based pads at most subunits and DVD-ROM based pads at larger command centers. When the number of pads that have to be managed securely is smaller than the number of code books or nuclear weapons that we have previously had to handle under field and in fact battlefield conditions, the problem is minor. Assuming a zero reuse of the OTPs, one CD-ROM is good for 650 megabytes of text or data. That's roughly 2 megabytes a day for a year, 74k per hour, 1200 bytes per minute, 20 bytes per second. (assume say 10 bytes per second in each direction). The position and status of a vehicle, being updated with 32 bit (4 byte) precision in lattitude and longitude and altitude and 4 bytes of current other status gives about 1 Hz updates. Dropping to 0.1 Hz updates we can send hostile contact reports at about 1 Hz and own position slightly less continuously. With tens of kilobytes of text messages per hour possible as well. Any situation where "my actual comms bandwidth requirement can be encrypted for a year with one physical pad exchange" is a true statement is not a situation where pad distribution is a Major Problem. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:59:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1059029962 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:59:22 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:59:22 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146901 On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:00:02 BST in alt.folklore.computers, Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02>, "Robert J. Kolker" > wrote: > >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>>> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >>> world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >>> is basically only one periodic table of elements. > >> Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical >> representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks >> on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no >> necessary connection to their meanings. > >It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. Figuring out word groups from symbol patterns is probably not too hard, even common phrases from groups of words is possible. Figuring out what any of the words mean, even what part of speech they are, is impossible without some kind of context. To reference another thread, you effectively have a bunch of coded messages. Without a codebook or a crib, you can assign any meaning you like to any word, and it may make sense or not, you can't really tell. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:51:40 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 58 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50872cdf.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059040300 3946 80.135.44.223 (24 Jul 2003 09:51:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:51:40 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p50872CDF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146877 On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Some number notations (like roman numerals) suggest their own meaning, > but by and large languages are arbitrary encodings of concepts or > phonemes. One cannot get a set of arbitrary marks to reveal their own > meaning. There is no intrinsic encoding for human thought nor can > there be. There is no intrinsic encoding, but it doesn't follow that the marks cannot be decoded. To give a banal example of why this logic is false: There is no intrinsic encoding of english letters into 8-bit bytes. Still, given a collection of bytes containing english text, with an arbitrary encoding, it is trivial work to decode it. Even with a very small text-sample, say 100 bytes, your chanses are excellent. There are some assumptions that are likely to be true of all human languages, because we have so much in common. objects we encounter are likely to have a representation. For example, it's a fair bet that any living or dead human language has some representation for "animal" and some for "plant" and so on. Furthermore, there's concepts so universal that they are likely to be known by any sufficiently advanced culture, human or not. For example, there are fairly fundamental limits to what you can do with no grasp of mathemathics. All cultures with mathemathics will have natural numbers. No, it doesn't *HAVE* to be so, but it's a fairly safe bet. They'll also all have addition, subtraction, multiplication, division and probably a large part of the rest of our basic arithmethic. From this knowledge alone it should be fairly trivial to decipher any number-system given a sufficient collection of mathemathical texts. The same is true of language in general, though the puzzle is bigger. You start by trying to figure out what is a word. Then you sort words into groups, based on similarities. For example if: X Y Y Z Y and X Y Y A Y both occur frequently, aswell as other words in the place of Z and A, it's probably true that A and Z are words of the same type (i.e. they're both verbs or both nouns) It helps a lot if there are pictures. Any product of a human civilization is very likely to have pictures, simply because seeing is such an important sense to us. If not, simply where the writings are found can be enough to give some clue as to the topic of the texts. In short, I have little doubt at all that a human culture, similarily advanced to us, but without any knowledge of english or related languages would still be able to make sense of say a modern encyclopedia. It'd take work, but it'd be more than possible. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059045543 24.62.143.251 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:19:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:19:03 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:19:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146847 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > In short, I have little doubt at all that a human culture, similarily > advanced to us, but without any knowledge of english or related > languages would still be able to make sense of say a modern > encyclopedia. It'd take work, but it'd be more than possible. How? If there are two internally consistent translations for a given corpus in the unknown language, how do you disambiguate them? This requires mind reading, but the original minds are dead and gone. Somehow you are stuck with this notion of instrinsic meaning. There is no such thing. Proof: I can redefine every noun I use. Now how do you distinguish between "The Cat_1 ate the Mouse_1" and "The Cat_2 ate the Mouse_2" where I define Cat_1 to be a critter of the order felix and Mouse_1 to be a critten of the order rodenta. On the other hand Cat_2 is a critter of the order canus and Mouse_2 is another word for garbage. Now disambiguate that without some live references. You can't. The information is not available to you and you can't make it up out of nothing. If I say to you x + y = 10 where x, y are rational numbers. Now solve for x and y. You cant. The equation has no unique solution. You can specify possible solutions but you cant say one is more of solution than the other. Ditto for possible translations of some unknown language. Unless can can pin it down, you are left with large -sets- of possible meanings which puts you right back to where you start. Bob Kolker ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:51:35 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 32 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50872cdf.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059047495 9402 80.135.44.223 (24 Jul 2003 11:51:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:51:35 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p50872CDF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146878 On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > Proof: I can redefine every noun I use. Now how do you distinguish > between "The Cat_1 ate the Mouse_1" and "The Cat_2 ate the Mouse_2" > where I define Cat_1 to be a critter of the order felix and Mouse_1 to > be a critten of the order rodenta. On the other hand Cat_2 is a > critter of the order canus and Mouse_2 is another word for garbage. Fair enough. > If I say to you x + y = 10 where x, y are rational numbers. Now solve > for x and y. You cant. The equation has no unique solution. You can > specify possible solutions but you cant say one is more of solution > than the other. Ditto for possible translations of some unknown > language. But also: x + y = 10, x = y + 2 gives x=6, y=4 So this is the core of the question. With enough "equations" you CAN reconstruct the meaning of individual tokens, without you cannot. A single sentence in a unknown language will surely be undecipherable, a large collection of writing in a unknown language will just as surely be understandable. I'm fairly sure that the typical encyclopedia contains more than enough information to uniquely reconstruct large parts of english, exceptions being mostly rare words that only occur in a few places and are not defined in the encyclopedia itself. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers From: Mikko Nahkola Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> Reply-To: mnahkola@trein.ntc.nokia.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 41 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:07:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.22.106.89 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@nokia.com X-Trace: news2.nokia.com 1059052023 172.22.106.89 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:07:03 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:07:03 EET DST Organization: Nokia Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!newsfeed1.nokia.com!news1.nokia.com!news2.nokia.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146857 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: >> If I say to you x + y = 10 where x, y are rational numbers. Now solve >> for x and y. You cant. The equation has no unique solution. You can >> specify possible solutions but you cant say one is more of solution >> than the other. Ditto for possible translations of some unknown >> language. > But also: x + y = 10, x = y + 2 gives x=6, y=4 > So this is the core of the question. With enough "equations" you CAN > reconstruct the meaning of individual tokens, without you cannot. A > single sentence in a unknown language will surely be undecipherable, a > large collection of writing in a unknown language will just as surely be > understandable. What about the languages where a given numeral may have a different value depending on the context? IIRC this was supposed to be the case in some old dialects of Saami ... then again, they couldn't write that back then, really, but their kids were forced to go to school in a language foreign to them and had funny problems in math. Or at least that's the story, don't know if it's actually _true_ ... > I'm fairly sure that the typical encyclopedia contains more than enough > information to uniquely reconstruct large parts of english, exceptions > being mostly rare words that only occur in a few places and are not > defined in the encyclopedia itself. Reminds me of the time when I, as a kid, tried to make sense out of an English encyclopedia. I only knew Finnish back then. Didn't understand too much but I was only 5 years old at the time... I'd expect that English is among the easiest natural languages around for that kind of processing, really. -- Mikko Nahkola #include #Not speaking for my employer. No warranty. YMMV. ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059054727 24.62.143.251 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:52:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:52:07 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:52:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146856 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > I'm fairly sure that the typical encyclopedia contains more than enough > information to uniquely reconstruct large parts of english, exceptions > being mostly rare words that only occur in a few places and are not > defined in the encyclopedia itself. And what if you can't read the encyclopedia? Bob Kolker ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:52:08 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.44 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1059064841 205.206.39.44 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:40:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:40:41 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!207.35.177.252!nf3.bellglobal.com!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146858 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >Figuring out word groups from symbol patterns is probably not too >hard, even common phrases from groups of words is possible. >Figuring out what any of the words mean, even what part of speech >they are, is impossible without some kind of context. >To reference another thread, you effectively have a bunch of >coded messages. >Without a codebook or a crib, you can assign any meaning you like >to any word, and it may make sense or not, you can't really tell. That bothered me about Crichton's "Andromeda" stories. I would imagine an alien contact later on: "... followed plans ... giant computer ... took over world ... You idiots! This is a recipe for carrot cake!" Which might be a message about the psyches of the people who decoded the message. Sagan was better, and allowed for a crib in _Contact_. Regards. Mel. ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:02:33 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.44 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1059064842 205.206.39.44 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:40:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:40:42 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146863 In article , ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >To give a banal example of why this logic is false: There is no >intrinsic encoding of english letters into 8-bit bytes. Still, given a >collection of bytes containing english text, with an arbitrary encoding, >it is trivial work to decode it. Even with a very small text-sample, say >100 bytes, your chanses are excellent. Yes, but "containing english text" is your contextual information here. Assume that it's Spanish text, allow for a few misspellings (see Leo Marks' _Between Silk and Cyanide_) and your chances will also be excellent, although the message will probably not be the same. Regards. Mel. ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:21:42 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust11.tnt1.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059066922 news.dial.pipex.com 18486 62.188.100.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146890 In article , David Lesher wrote: > Tennant Stuart writes: >> Doesn't physics & chemistry function as a Rosetta Stone? >> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >> world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >> is basically only one periodic table of elements. > Short story: > Omnilingual by H. Beam Piper 1957 Really? Gosh thanks! :) Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 24 Jul 03 10:53:37 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-513.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146963 In article bobkolker@comcast.net (Robert J. Kolker) writes: >Some number notations (like roman numerals) suggest their own meaning, >but by and large languages are arbitrary encodings of concepts or >phonemes. One cannot get a set of arbitrary marks to reveal their own >meaning. There is no intrinsic encoding for human thought nor can there >be. This is going to come as a serious shock to many GUI designers, not to mention the people who invent the hieroglyphics on so-called "international" road signs. But I hope they learn this soon. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 25 Jul 03 12:53:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 73 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa5ZEwktRdi99IdhfGe3AqrpmwDz68drSrymWyZ6xZLIwt/mzMtc4C4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2003 13:54:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-123 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146958 In article , ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > >>> It helps a lot if there are pictures. > >> No, it doesn't. I just read a book about ancient technology. We have >> pictures of boats, but they're on a vase so the dimensions are out of >> whack. > >Yes it does. Go into any chinese library. Go to the childrens >department. See if you can't manage, with a fairly high certanity, by >the help of pictures in books, figure out what the chinese >representation for "cat" is. Repeat the exersize for dog, man, woman, 3, >car, water, tree, flower.... > >You're claiming this cannot be done. I'm saying I'd manage it with no >problem at all, and so would most 13-year olds if they where really >interested. How can you figure out how things were done if you can't build the tools they were done with? I just got two books at the dump which is written in Russian about the 8080 and the other about an HLL computer language. Some of the words are even English, like DATA DIVISION. But the language isn't COBOL. > >> Take a good hard look at the cave paintings in France. Everybody who >> is educated to evalutate them mumbles something about religion. >> Whenever I look at them, I see a school room to teach young males >> where to aim their spears. > >You have nothing even REMOTELY close to a complete encyclopedia in any >dead language. You're talking about something else. No...you may be talking about something else. :-) > ..Everyone can see >that cave-painting X is some humans chasing a animal. > >Now, what exactly that means, and why it's painted is a different >question. Could be to bring luck in the hunt. Could be to keep the >memories of a legendary hunt. Could be, as you say instructive. There's >even no reason why it could not be all of the above. None of which >refutes the point that it is, infact, a depiction of a hunt. Can you learn their accumulated knowledge that has evolved so that hunts are successful from those paintings? No. There is a lot of knowledge that was communicated in between picture pointing. I would suspect that computer knowledge would be even more difficult because they work at the subatomic level. > >> You are assuming that a modern society is a scientific society or a >> society that is allowed to use technology as it is developed. > >Yes. I agree I was inaccurate here. When I said "modern" I really meant >a society with science. But then again, that's pretty much the >definition of modern. Or can you imagine a "modern" society that does >NOT have science ? (science the method, not science the set of results.) Yes, the Greeks had a modern society without our flavor of science. A century from now our society will not be considered as modern. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 25 Jul 03 13:04:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb9oijCppCyAPYygefHDmgrK4eDwoHYDJRXtV3kPBHeT78j3FrFVxDN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2003 14:05:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-123 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146956 In article , "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: >Now complete the fillowing sequence > >3 1 4 1 5.... It's a trick question, isn't it? You're trying to get them to guess a datum. It could be phone number, social security number, or even an incorrect pi. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059088535 12.237.120.43 (Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:15:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:15:35 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:15:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146939 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > > > Larry Elmore wrote: > >> >> I think you're really stretching the definition of "used properly" here. > > > Not so. The overall security of an OTP is bounded by the security of the > key transmission to the using parties. The key must be transmitted in a > totally secure manner. That is, it must never be used if it has been > compromised in the transmission, which further means that a clandestine > access to the key must absolutely be prevented. > > It is the difficulty of securing the keys that make the OTP usable only > under special circumstance, mostly in in high level diplomatic and > policy message exchanges. OTP's are simply not good for field use. That > is where public-key, private-key and DES (with a long enough key) come > into play. What if one of your top people (who's supposed to have access) is a mole? I know of no method of securing keys that is guaranteed safe from treason. If you do, I'm sure the NSA, FBI, CIA et al will be lining up at your door with job offers. --Larry ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> In-Reply-To: <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059091677 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:07:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:07:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:07:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146942 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > > This is going to come as a serious shock to many GUI designers, > not to mention the people who invent the hieroglyphics on so-called > "international" road signs. > > But I hope they learn this soon. I did not say there are no self defining or clear hieroglyphs. I have said that languages are largely arbitrary signs combined in ways that are the syntax of the language. O.K. A picture of a deer indicates a deer crossing. But what about a spelled out sign D-E-E-R C-R-O-S-S-I-N-G. Now do this in an alphabet (or symbol system) that is totally unknown and has not been used by living people in the memory of those currently living. Do you think you can figure it out? If you do you claim to be in communication with the dead. And even pictorial symbols may be tricky. For example a picture of a bee may be a rhebus indicating use the sound for bee. However in an unknown language used by people dead and buried we don't know how that sounded. In general unless you can link an old language to a living language what you have is a mystery without a clue. If there is no Rosetta Stone you lose. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059091858 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:10:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:10:58 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:10:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146937 Larry Elmore wrote: > What if one of your top people (who's supposed to have access) is a > mole? I know of no method of securing keys that is guaranteed safe from > treason. If you do, I'm sure the NSA, FBI, CIA et al will be lining up > at your door with job offers. It just goes to show that security is hard to come by. That is why we use public key- private key encryption. One does not have to trust anyone. Just keep your own private key safe. Also hope that the trapdoor function for computing the plain text cannot be reversed easily. If the key to an OTP is securely trasnmitted, the encryption is the strongest possible (for just ONE message). If one uses the same pad on two messages it can be broken. Bob Kolker ###### From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 01:52:11 GMT Organization: Stefan Ram Lines: 7 Distribution: usenet Expires: 28 Dec 2003 11:59:59 GMT Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: komma.zedat.fu-berlin.de (130.133.1.46) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059097931 18600798 130.133.1.46 (16 17 18) X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2003 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved. Distribution through any means other than regular usenet channels is forbidden. X-No-Archive: Yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!komma.zedat.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146949 "Robert J. Kolker" writes: >In general unless you can link an old language to a living language what >you have is a mystery without a clue. If there is no Rosetta Stone you >lose. 000001000001000001000001000001000001000000000001000010000011000100000101000110000111001000001001001010001011001100001101001110001111010000010001010010010011010100010101010110010111011000011001011010011011011100011101011110011111100000100001100010100011100100100101100110100111101000101001101010101011101100101101101110101111110000110001110010110011110100110101110110110111111000111001111010111011111100111101111110111111000001000001000001000001000001000001000010000011000101000111001011001101010001010011010111011101011111100101101001101011101111110101111011111101000001000001000001000001000001000001 ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:37:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:42:38 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-SHRE0S/HtGFAHCM2EsUc1bVPIWVhwnr8j1Rtx15wil2jLTYD7FNJJrT0TXuZhBVNELw6SUfkv0kgwAL!CVN0hYKmyWhRay2gGLBrIdpPaghJhZEWETSR320ebzbmuzXjo+l3My3ir56YK56T0q74jkJpB/h9!nrc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146912 Stefan Ram wrote: > 000001000001000001000001000001000001000000000001000010000011000100000101000110000111001000001001001010001011001100001101001110001111010000010001010010010011010100010101010110010111011000011001011010011011011100011101011110011111100000100001100010100011100100100101100110100111101000101001101010101011101100101101101110101111110000110001110010110011110100110101110110110111111000111001111010111011111100111101111110111111000001000001000001000001000001000001000010000011000101000111001011001101010001010011010111011101011111100101101001101011101111110101111011111101000001000001000001000001000001000001 Cute: In six bit fields, enumerating the nonnegative integers, and then all the prime numbers, padding each section with six ones as a double hint. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ War is the province of chance. \__/ Karl von Clausewitz ###### From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 04:32:37 GMT Organization: Stefan Ram Lines: 24 Distribution: usenet Expires: 28 Dec 2003 11:59:59 GMT Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: komma.zedat.fu-berlin.de (130.133.1.46) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059107557 18032784 130.133.1.46 (16 17 18) X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2003 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved. Distribution through any means other than regular usenet channels is forbidden. X-No-Archive: Yes Content-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!komma.zedat.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146943 Erik Max Francis writes: >Cute: In six bit fields, enumerating the nonnegative integers, and then >all the prime numbers, padding each section with six ones as a double >hint. You have correctly interpret my intention. It might be possible that such a binary message as given might be extended to talk about other mathematical structures. Any reader with sufficient knowledge about these structures then might be able to decipher them. Then one can make statements about numbers and operations and thus introduce symbols for numerical operations and relations. Once binary numbers with fractional parts are established, global dimensionless physical ratios (independend of a system of units) might be mentioned. The difficult part would be the extension to topics that are not so absolute as mathematics or physics. For example, to hint that a certain code now should mean "the author of this message". ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:48:24 -0500 Message-ID: <3F20B7E1.B1CFD43E@alcyone.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:53:53 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-ahbJrtxlY/I800L5DMu0axUt5NEw3EB4ex1qLi1E0XOl08yyvhELSWvW6Fe1ZA2XL/PH47twdl7xfg2!sU55mP+eVATgPLnN7LdWXJn6phGDG1Zfgjf5AwwZRio1TU+GT3+HBt+lEvZJX+lR7oRO2fX8SFs5!L3mg X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146920 Stefan Ram wrote: > You have correctly interpret my intention. > > It might be possible that such a binary message as > given might be extended to talk about other mathematical > structures. Any reader with sufficient knowledge about > these structures then might be able to decipher them. > > Then one can make statements about numbers and > operations and thus introduce symbols for numerical > operations and relations. Yes, this idea has already been explored in various ways. Google for Lincos. http://www.alcyone.com/max/links/et.html#Lincos_Lingua_cosmica -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Fifteen minutes / To show the world \__/ Nik Kershaw ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Message-ID: <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1059109696 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:08:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:08:16 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:08:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146924 Erik Max Francis wrote: > Stefan Ram wrote: > > >>000001000001000001000001000001000001000000000001000010000011000100000101000110000111001000001001001010001011001100001101001110001111010000010001010010010011010100010101010110010111011000011001011010011011011100011101011110011111100000100001100010100011100100100101100110100111101000101001101010101011101100101101101110101111110000110001110010110011110100110101110110110111111000111001111010111011111100111101111110111111000001000001000001000001000001000001000010000011000101000111001011001101010001010011010111011101011111100101101001101011101111110101111011111101000001000001000001000001000001000001 > > > Cute: In six bit fields, enumerating the nonnegative integers, and then > all the prime numbers, padding each section with six ones as a double > hint. Actually there are an infinite number of series that start off as the one above. One cannot infer the complete rule from a finite portion of the series. Bob Kolker > ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:07:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:12:53 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-513wQ/UkF1aeZECCHGvNulTYoKA5F1sDW9CJtFY3nFVbSC+iUrl/nobRCztTmbgd1IgPidtDgcfEIeL!II6Ml34bumnp5KcVc301ujEtzT53OT19bOxaJQnjHIEJe53PK5o+jCZuSooq8YeBVixPLlllAUKk!y4Du X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146914 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Actually there are an infinite number of series that start off as the > one above. One cannot infer the complete rule from a finite portion of > the series. Interesting, then, that I guessed the one he meant, isn't it? We're talking about getting meaning from scribbles. I deduced the meaning from the scribbles even though you say I shouldn't have been able to. Curious, that. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Nobody's interested in sweetness and light. \__/ Hedda Hopper ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1059110500 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:21:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:21:40 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:21:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147004 Erik Max Francis wrote: > > Interesting, then, that I guessed the one he meant, isn't it? We're > talking about getting meaning from scribbles. I deduced the meaning > from the scribbles even though you say I shouldn't have been able to. > Curious, that. I can produce an uncountable number of series that start off the same way and have a completely different rule. So you only think you have gotten it right. ANd if you did, it was because a live person told you so. Which has been my point all along. If that series was produced by someone dead 1000 years, you would not know if you got the right rule or not. On a probablistic basis you most likely would have gotten it wrong. Guess the next number in this sequence 3 1 4 1 5 1 ... Bob Kolker ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:47:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:52:40 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-fVCb5hTFSgKF2/CJmxOJz4GcBUCzbH3L1WLXgz7SdihiQfJla/oliP6PGnKkJOgdiY7cAE3NBW3oZcK!h+IQs+VcZlBU5sAa6G/IkN6IgUDIu/FX1Idq5VCsmN5aEjW2LiwrxprbBgiobKCwf4VjmUfF5yym!k9k7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146916 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > I can produce an uncountable number of series that start off the same > way and have a completely different rule. No, countably infinite, actually. > So you only think you have > gotten it right. ANd if you did, it was because a live person told you > so. Which has been my point all along. But I knew I was right before he confirmed it. I didn't need to go back and forth with him to figure it out, I didn't get any clues from him other than the sequence of binary numbers he offered. Yet I figured out the meaning anyway. > If that series was produced by someone dead 1000 years, you would not > know if you got the right rule or not. On a probablistic basis you > most > likely would have gotten it wrong. But I was right, and I knew it without having to ask him. So how did I manage to pick the one event that had probably measure zero of being right? It's called meaning, something which you're trying to claim has no relevance. As it stands, the fact that I happened to guess the one right answer out of a countably infinite number of possibilities should be unbelievably impressive to you. The fact that it's not means that you know that meaning is as important as I do; you're just not willing to admit it. > Guess the next number in this sequence > > 3 1 4 1 5 1 ... I know that it's not nine, because you're deliberately trying to be difficult. Meaning. If it were contained in an alien transmission in a part that I thought was related to circles, I'd say it was nine. Meaning. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Nobody's interested in sweetness and light. \__/ Hedda Hopper ###### From: John David Galt Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:08:36 -0700 Organization: Diogenes the Cynic Hot-Tubbing Society Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3F20D774.AAE1BC89@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: 02-171.139.popsite.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blue.rahul.net 1059117036 14247 66.248.73.171 (25 Jul 2003 07:10:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: support@rahul.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:10:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr,es,de,it Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snf1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!news.mainstreet.net!wasp.rahul.net!blue.rahul.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146990 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > And even pictorial symbols may be tricky. For example a picture of a bee > may be a rhebus indicating use the sound for bee. However in an unknown > language used by people dead and buried we don't know how that sounded. I've always wondered: if you put the Macintosh "dogcow" on a road sign, how many different ways will drivers interpret that sign? ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:40:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1059118809 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 01:40:09 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 01:40:09 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147005 On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:51:35 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > >> Proof: I can redefine every noun I use. Now how do you distinguish >> between "The Cat_1 ate the Mouse_1" and "The Cat_2 ate the Mouse_2" >> where I define Cat_1 to be a critter of the order felix and Mouse_1 to >> be a critten of the order rodenta. On the other hand Cat_2 is a >> critter of the order canus and Mouse_2 is another word for garbage. > >Fair enough. > >> If I say to you x + y = 10 where x, y are rational numbers. Now solve >> for x and y. You cant. The equation has no unique solution. You can >> specify possible solutions but you cant say one is more of solution >> than the other. Ditto for possible translations of some unknown >> language. > >But also: x + y = 10, x = y + 2 gives x=6, y=4 > >So this is the core of the question. With enough "equations" you CAN >reconstruct the meaning of individual tokens, without you cannot. A >single sentence in a unknown language will surely be undecipherable, a >large collection of writing in a unknown language will just as surely be >understandable. > >I'm fairly sure that the typical encyclopedia contains more than enough >information to uniquely reconstruct large parts of english, exceptions >being mostly rare words that only occur in a few places and are not >defined in the encyclopedia itself. There's a lot of common background between Cyrillic, Greek, and Roman languages and scripts that make decoding fairly trivial given reasonable samples. Try reading any amount of a non-Western non-ideographic script, even with adjacent translation, and see how hard it is to correlate the texts. Now try again without the adjacent translation. Semitic cultures are fairly similar in background to our own but have totally different writing origins. IMHO without a prior background knowledge of both Western and Semitic languages it would be extremely difficult to come up with a mapping between say an Old Testament in German Black Letter and one in Hebrew. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:27:56 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 23 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p508729a9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059136076 12971 80.135.41.169 (25 Jul 2003 12:27:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:27:56 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p508729A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146959 On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Mel Wilson wrote: > ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >>To give a banal example of why this logic is false: There is no >>intrinsic encoding of english letters into 8-bit bytes. Still, given a >>collection of bytes containing english text, with an arbitrary encoding, >>it is trivial work to decode it. Even with a very small text-sample, say >>100 bytes, your chanses are excellent. > Yes, but "containing english text" is your contextual > information here. Exactly. In my example "containing some english text" is the contextual information. "These mark are some sort of human writing" is also contextual information, allthough a lot more imprecise. All I'm saying here is that the lack of a "intrinsic encoding" does not, by itself, make it impossible to decode a message. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 12:29:13 GMT Organization: Stefan Ram Lines: 24 Distribution: usenet Expires: 28 Dec 2003 11:59:59 GMT Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: komma.zedat.fu-berlin.de (130.133.1.46) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059136153 18759787 130.133.1.46 (16 17 18) X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2003 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved. Distribution through any means other than regular usenet channels is forbidden. X-No-Archive: Yes Content-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news-feed1.de1.concert.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!komma.zedat.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146945 ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes: > The difficult part would be the extension to topics > that are not so absolute as mathematics or physics. > For example, to hint that a certain code now should > mean "the author of this message". I will have a look at "Lincos", but without looking at it: Here is a vague idea how to introduce "author of this message": The message could make mathematical assertations about functions and introduce recursive definitions and assertations, that only make sense, if one special symbol is interpret as "the function being defined" or "this function/context itself". -- Then this symbol can be used outside of function definitions to mean "this message". By writing true "redundant" assertations with it, this meaning can be made more sure. Then - in the mathematical part - a function, which is the "generator" of a sequence might already have been introduced, and so finally the concept "generator of this message" could be formed. The reader will need to be able to understand metaphorical speech somewhat to comprehend this. ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:38:03 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 20 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p508729a9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059136683 13462 80.135.41.169 (25 Jul 2003 12:38:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:38:03 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p508729A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146960 On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: >> I'm fairly sure that the typical encyclopedia contains more than enough >> information to uniquely reconstruct large parts of english, exceptions >> being mostly rare words that only occur in a few places and are not >> defined in the encyclopedia itself. > And what if you can't read the encyclopedia? I'm saying you can. ANY encyclopedia. Infact ANY work with sufficient collection of logical and meaningful sentences, given that you're willing to take the time. I also told you how to get started reading it. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:44:42 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 44 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p508729a9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059137081 13705 80.135.41.169 (25 Jul 2003 12:44:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:44:41 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p508729A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146962 On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >> It helps a lot if there are pictures. > No, it doesn't. I just read a book about ancient technology. We have > pictures of boats, but they're on a vase so the dimensions are out of > whack. Yes it does. Go into any chinese library. Go to the childrens department. See if you can't manage, with a fairly high certanity, by the help of pictures in books, figure out what the chinese representation for "cat" is. Repeat the exersize for dog, man, woman, 3, car, water, tree, flower.... You're claiming this cannot be done. I'm saying I'd manage it with no problem at all, and so would most 13-year olds if they where really interested. > Take a good hard look at the cave paintings in France. Everybody who > is educated to evalutate them mumbles something about religion. > Whenever I look at them, I see a school room to teach young males > where to aim their spears. You have nothing even REMOTELY close to a complete encyclopedia in any dead language. You're talking about something else. Everyone can see that cave-painting X is some humans chasing a animal. Now, what exactly that means, and why it's painted is a different question. Could be to bring luck in the hunt. Could be to keep the memories of a legendary hunt. Could be, as you say instructive. There's even no reason why it could not be all of the above. None of which refutes the point that it is, infact, a depiction of a hunt. > You are assuming that a modern society is a scientific society or a > society that is allowed to use technology as it is developed. Yes. I agree I was inaccurate here. When I said "modern" I really meant a society with science. But then again, that's pretty much the definition of modern. Or can you imagine a "modern" society that does NOT have science ? (science the method, not science the set of results.) Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:58:06 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 63 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p508729a9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059137886 14487 80.135.41.169 (25 Jul 2003 12:58:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:58:06 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p508729A9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146961 On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > I can produce an uncountable number of series that start off the same > way and have a completely different rule. So you only think you have > gotten it right. X XX XXX XXXX ? XXXXX Sure, the missing line *could* be anything. There's more and less reasonable guesses though, something you are denying. Given that there's an infinite number of lines that COULD fit in the place of the ?, why is it then, that 95% of the readers of this message (you included !) are thinking of the precise one I meant ? Is it just luck ? > If that series was produced by someone dead 1000 years, you would not > know if you got the right rule or not. Why does it matter if the person who made it is dead or not ? The thing you are overlooking is the simple fact that in even quite a short text you will find literally thousands of confirmations that your guess is correct. Sure, any one guess COULD theoretically be wrong, but the probability sink *VERY* quickly with increasing data. 1 10 11 100 101 110 111 1000 1001 1010 1011 Let's say you're guessing that I just counted to eleven. Then later you meet this: 1 10 11 101 111 1011 Does this make you more sure your guess was correct ? If not, why not ? How about 100 X 11 Y 111, 1 X 101 Y 110 Yes. As a mathemathician you are correct there is any number of mappings that would satisfy all of this. This does not however, mean that all mappings are equally likely. There *are* such things as natural numbers. It IS reasonably to think that any scientific civilization knows about them. Notice that above I gave only something liek 2 lines of symbols. In a real library you would be able to read thousands of pages about mathemathics. More than enough to convince anyone that the guessed meaning of the symbols is correct. > On a probablistic basis you most likely would have gotten it wrong. On a "probablistic" basis you're probably to hung up on your math to see the reality. > Guess the next number in this sequence > > 3 1 4 1 5 1 ... 6. But I'm not very sure of it. If I had 100 numbers infront of it and 100 after, I would be a lot more sure. You would not, but then again this only means YOU would never be able to communicate with someone who doesn't share a language with you. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059140577 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:42:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:42:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:42:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146925 Christopher M. Jones wrote: > > > This is literally true but unimportant. Inference and reasoning > by induction is a very fundamental concept and it is not > unreasonable to assume that you can teach another intelligent > species something through repetition and regular variation. That is begging the question on the validity of induction. The history of science is litered with broken theories that was arrived at by induction. > Indeed, the concept of an intelligence which cannot learn based > on induction calls into question how it would be possible for > such a thing to exist and rightly be called intelligent. Intelligence is the talent for making good guesses. If your guesses are good, you live. Otherwise you die. Now complete the fillowing sequence 3 1 4 1 5.... Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 74 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059140824 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:47:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:47:04 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:47:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146938 Erik Max Francis wrote: > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >>I can produce an uncountable number of series that start off the same >>way and have a completely different rule. > > > No, countably infinite, actually. > There are uncountably many sequences but only a countable subset of these have a Turing machine algorithm that will generate them. Think how: what is 2^Alephnull? > But I knew I was right before he confirmed it. I didn't need to go back > and forth with him to figure it out, I didn't get any clues from him > other than the sequence of binary numbers he offered. Yet I figured out > the meaning anyway. You guessed right. Congratulations. How do you know you guessed right. A living breathing person verified that you were right. > > >>If that series was produced by someone dead 1000 years, you would not >>know if you got the right rule or not. On a probablistic basis you >>most >>likely would have gotten it wrong. > > > But I was right, and I knew it without having to ask him. So how did I > manage to pick the one event that had probably measure zero of being > right? It's called meaning, something which you're trying to claim has > no relevance. There are infinitely many meanings. Which one is the one intended? Can you channel the dead? Or do you communicate with living persons? > > As it stands, the fact that I happened to guess the one right answer out > of a countably infinite number of possibilities should be unbelievably > impressive to you. The fact that it's not means that you know that > meaning is as important as I do; you're just not willing to admit it. > > >>Guess the next number in this sequence >> >>3 1 4 1 5 1 ... > > > I know that it's not nine, because you're deliberately trying to be > difficult. Meaning. Meaning that you do not know, and I am not telling. Which is precisely my point. That is why we cannot, in general, decode truly dead languages. > > If it were contained in an alien transmission in a part that I thought > was related to circles, I'd say it was nine. Meaning. But you would not know the meaning since there is more than one possible meaning. There is no such thing as -the- meaning unless you can pin it down with a live verification. Otherwise all you have is a good guess and a conviction to match it. Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1059141086 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:51:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:51:26 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:51:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146923 Brian Inglis wrote: > There's a lot of common background between Cyrillic, Greek, and > Roman languages and scripts that make decoding fairly trivial > given reasonable samples. The alphabet does not determine the underlying syntax of the language, nor can a finite simple determine the meanings intended. This is particularly true if the people who generated the "plain text" died two thousand years agon. > > Try reading any amount of a non-Western non-ideographic script, > even with adjacent translation, and see how hard it is to > correlate the texts. > Now try again without the adjacent translation. Correct. Without the adjacent translation you are stuck. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059141221 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:53:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:53:41 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:53:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146934 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > All I'm saying here is that the lack of a "intrinsic encoding" does not, > by itself, make it impossible to decode a message. Yes it does. Even if there were a simple language underlying the thing, suppose the sample you got was an -encoding- of a plaintext. Then you would have a double proble. One, getting to the underlying language and two, decoding what you have in hand. The two together are for all practical puproses impossible to solve unless you have a link to a live plaintext source. Try to decode Egyptian "pig latin" if you do not know the underlying Egyptian. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059141297 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:54:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:54:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:54:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146931 Stefan Ram wrote: >> By writing true "redundant" assertations with it, this > meaning can be made more sure. Then - in the mathematical > part - a function, which is the "generator" of a sequence > might already have been introduced, and so finally > the concept "generator of this message" could be formed. > The reader will need to be able to understand > metaphorical speech somewhat to comprehend this. Metaphor can be only understood by contact with a live use of the language plus enough context to determine the background sematics and culture. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1059141364 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:56:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:56:04 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:56:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146921 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > > > I'm saying you can. ANY encyclopedia. Infact ANY work with sufficient > collection of logical and meaningful sentences, given that you're > willing to take the time. Not if the encyclopedia is written in a dead language with no live links, and has no pictures to help you figure out what is what. . Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059141542 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:59:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:59:02 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:59:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146936 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > > 6. But I'm not very sure of it. If I had 100 numbers infront of it and > 100 after, I would be a lot more sure. You would not, but then again > this only means YOU would never be able to communicate with someone who > doesn't share a language with you. You would -feel- sure after 100 but you would not -be- sure (certain). You may have a sequence written by someone with a peculiar sense of humor. If there are two turing machines that will generate the first ten million items identically you have no assurance of what the next item is. Bob Kolker ###### From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 14:09:06 GMT Organization: Stefan Ram Lines: 13 Distribution: usenet Expires: 28 Dec 2003 11:59:59 GMT Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: komma.zedat.fu-berlin.de (130.133.1.46) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059142146 19109967 130.133.1.46 (16 17 18) X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2003 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved. Distribution through any means other than regular usenet channels is forbidden. X-No-Archive: Yes Content-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!komma.zedat.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146941 "Robert J. Kolker" writes: >> the concept "generator of this message" could be formed. >> The reader will need to be able to understand >> metaphorical speech somewhat to comprehend this. >Metaphor can be only understood by contact with a live use of the >language plus enough context to determine the background sematics and >culture. If the reader has read and understood so far, the message and the fact that the reader assumes a sender/generator of this message /is/ the context. This is already a small common culture. ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059148137 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:48:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:48:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:48:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146926 Stefan Ram wrote: > If the reader has read and understood so far, the message > and the fact that the reader assumes a sender/generator > of this message /is/ the context. This is already a small > common culture. What if your so-called binary sequence was really base 71? Common culture? Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5lcUa.144833$Ph3.18597@sccrnsc04> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059148225 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:50:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:50:25 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:50:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146932 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > It's a trick question, isn't it? You're trying to get them to > guess a datum. It could be phone number, social security number, > or even an incorrect pi. And if I were dead 10,000 years you could never know, could you? It is safe to regard a fragment of a dead language with no living links as a "trick question", for that is what it is FAPP. Bob Kolker ###### From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 16:47:59 GMT Organization: Stefan Ram Lines: 11 Distribution: usenet Expires: 28 Dec 2003 11:59:59 GMT Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: komma.zedat.fu-berlin.de (130.133.1.46) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059151679 18905059 130.133.1.46 (16 17 18) X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2003 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved. Distribution through any means other than regular usenet channels is forbidden. X-No-Archive: Yes Content-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!komma.zedat.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146948 "Robert J. Kolker" writes: >> If the reader has read and understood so far, the message >> and the fact that the reader assumes a sender/generator >> of this message /is/ the context. This is already a small >> common culture. >What if your so-called binary sequence was really base 71? Common culture? It was a sequence using only two symbols. The notion of "real base of this sequence" is not defined for it. If it makes sense to you to define this notion in such a way that its value is "71", I will not object. ###### Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:19:12 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030725191912.3c7d4243.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2003 18:29:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p1174.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1059157790 maya.euronet.nl 132 62.234.202.150:1461 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146978 On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:52:40 -0700 Erik Max Francis wrote: EMF> "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: EMF> > Guess the next number in this sequence EMF> > EMF> > 3 1 4 1 5 1 ... EMF> EMF> I know that it's not nine, because you're deliberately trying to be EMF> difficult. Meaning. It had better not be 9, pi is 3.14159... I'd guess 6. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1059153615 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:20:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:20:15 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:20:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146922 Stefan Ram wrote: > It was a sequence using only two symbols. The notion > of "real base of this sequence" is not defined for it. > If it makes sense to you to define this notion in > such a way that its value is "71", I will not object. The number 101 in the base 71 is 71^2 + 1. The long and skinny is that the number sequence depended on making the assumption that it was binary. But it need not have been so. Again, since the base is arbitrary, one cannot -with certainty- determine the meaning or the rule from a finite sequence. If the orginator of the sequence has been dead for 10,000 (that is written in 1-s and 0-s by the way) there would be no way of knowing for sure what the sequence meant or what its rule is, short of channeling the dead. Bob Kolker ###### From: ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 17:35:52 GMT Organization: Stefan Ram Lines: 33 Distribution: usenet Expires: 28 Dec 2003 11:59:59 GMT Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: komma.zedat.fu-berlin.de (130.133.1.46) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059154552 18386091 130.133.1.46 (16 17 18) X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2003 Stefan Ram. All rights reserved. Distribution through any means other than regular usenet channels is forbidden. X-No-Archive: Yes Content-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!komma.zedat.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146944 "Robert J. Kolker" writes: >The number 101 in the base 71 is 71^2 + 1. The number 101 in the base 71 is 1U. 101 = 1 · 71^1 + 30 · 71^0. > The long and skinny is that >the number sequence depended on making the assumption that it was >binary. The interpretation of the sequence was based on assumptions. > But it need not have been so. correct. Other assumptions would have resulted in another interpretation. > Again, since the base is >arbitrary, one cannot -with certainty- determine the meaning or the rule >from a finite sequence. What do you mean by "the meaning of a finite sequence"? How do you define "the rule from a finite sequence"? > If the orginator of the sequence has been dead >for 10,000 (that is written in 1-s and 0-s by the way) there would be no >way of knowing for sure what the sequence meant or what its rule is, >short of channeling the dead. So what do you know for sure? ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059155117 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:45:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:45:17 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:45:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:146927 Stefan Ram wrote: > > > So what do you know for sure? Damned little. Life is mostly guesswork. If your guesses are good you live to reproduce. If not, you die. Bob Kolker ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:31:26 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust21.tnt2.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059166817 news.dial.pipex.com 959 62.188.105.21 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147030 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:00:02 BST in alt.folklore.computers, > Tennant Stuart wrote: >> In article <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02>, "Robert J. Kolker" >> wrote: >>> Tennant Stuart wrote: >>>>> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >>>> world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >>>> is basically only one periodic table of elements. >>> Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical >>> representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks >>> on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no >>> necessary connection to their meanings. >> It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. > Figuring out word groups from symbol patterns is probably not too hard, > even common phrases from groups of words is possible. Figuring out what > any of the words mean, even what part of speech they are, is impossible > without some kind of context. To reference another thread, you > effectively have a bunch of coded messages. Without a codebook or a > crib, you can assign any meaning you like to any word, and it may make > sense or not, you can't really tell. One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. Sigh. I'm surprised that quite a few of the people in this discussion are so lacking in the vision or perspicacity to even credit such a task, like a lot of old men proclaiming that something is impossible until someone younger with the nerve to ignore them just does it anyway. I seem to recall a book by Arthur C. Clarke on this very situation, ascribing it to failures of imagination or failures of nerve, ITSBC. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:53:53 -0500 Message-ID: <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:59:33 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-kAGKCMkb989Hqvzqr13l0twT9TPYg85dJqEc78XO3zpVYMfbEiqcYB1W6uSBVH1mLULTTIhovd9RKCQ!eYd8OPol45v38PYPHDVE6b942CdAp/QM79BZs6ZfnTG1Wqz8gZ9KMD5pxhxJD95lqQDkfelH9vFn!qRtc X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147023 stanislav shalunov wrote: > That is the continuum hypothesis. ... The continuum hypothesis is not > considered part of normal set of mathematical axioms. Yes. And 2 Aleph_0 = Aleph_1 is just plain wrong. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Love is when you wake up in the morning and have a big smile. \__/ Anggun ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: <6cgUa.146760$H17.51456@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059164034 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:13:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:13:54 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:13:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147025 Erik Max Francis wrote: >>You channel the dead? > > > No, I understood the meaning. You only think you do. You cannot know for sure, without a confirmation. The evidence at hand simply does not determine a meaning uniquely. Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059164149 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:15:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:15:49 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:15:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147026 Erik Max Francis wrote: > stanislav shalunov wrote: > > >>That is the continuum hypothesis. ... The continuum hypothesis is not >>considered part of normal set of mathematical axioms. > > > Yes. And 2 Aleph_0 = Aleph_1 is just plain wrong. Aleph_1 is the cardinality of the power set of the integers. It might or might not be the cardinality of the reals. Bob Kolker ###### From: stanislav shalunov Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 16:50:53 -0400 Organization: Internet2 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: basie.internet2.edu X-Trace: pith.uoregon.edu 1059166940 13871 207.75.164.22 (25 Jul 2003 21:02:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.uoregon.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:02:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147029 "Robert J. Kolker" writes: > Erik Max Francis wrote: > > Yes. And 2 Aleph_0 = Aleph_1 is just plain wrong. Correct. 2 aleph_0 = alepth_0. > Aleph_1 is the cardinality of the power set of the integers. It might or > might not be the cardinality of the reals. Incorrect. The cardinality of the power set of integers is equal to the cardinality of reals and is denoted 2^{aleph_0} (often referred to as continuum). It may or may not be equal to aleph_1, which is notation for the smallest cardinality larger than aleph_0. -- Stanislav Shalunov http://www.internet2.edu/~shalunov/ Most people can do nothing at all well. -- G. H. Hardy ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> In-Reply-To: <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8phUa.146575$Ph3.18714@sccrnsc04> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059168964 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:36:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:36:04 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 21:36:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147027 stanislav shalunov wrote: > "Robert J. Kolker" writes: > > >>Erik Max Francis wrote: > > >>>Yes. And 2 Aleph_0 = Aleph_1 is just plain wrong. > > > Correct. 2 aleph_0 = alepth_0. You left out the carat. 2^aleph0 = aleph1 Bob Kolker ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 15:00:24 -0700 Organization: Dis- Message-ID: References: <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <6cgUa.146760$H17.51456@sccrnsc02> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147024 Robert J. Kolker wrote: >Erik Max Francis wrote: >>>You channel the dead? >> No, I understood the meaning. > >You only think you do. You cannot know for sure, without a confirmation. >The evidence at hand simply does not determine a meaning uniquely. I am probably not going too far out into reducto ad absurdum to point out that in general language, the interpretation by individuals of language is equally not uniquely definitively demonstratable. Internal representation and meaning may differ in a population (and, in some respects, can be demonstrated to do so in real life). Nevertheless, we have a wide body of shared apparent communications, many media forms, large body of literature and art going back thousands of years in some cases, etc. Your point is 'future people cannot be 100% sure they know what we were saying' and that's correct, but extrapolating to 'and therefore they will not be able to come to a reasonable working translation of a dead language' does not follow from its antecedent. We use counterexamples to that every day. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:07:50 -0500 Message-ID: <3F21AB3B.1C9AD2F1@alcyone.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:12:11 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-yvvUchHPISV4slQVh0vz/UD/kPpZQ0pAahuWClcoKwUCyKGJR+7+KQWpdNgWV1fXtzEiE+tHm/brc/R!WMkj3Buex+KYR6ctFYUtvfl7b5Ty9nbVyQUsd5FM3+oSUkPusYve3ofz/hod2XfO2v9xvJFDXEVW!7caA X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147022 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Erik Max Francis wrote: > > > Yes. And 2 Aleph_0 = Aleph_1 is just plain wrong. > > Aleph_1 is the cardinality of the power set of the integers. It might > or > might not be the cardinality of the reals. Non sequitur. Your reading comprehension could stand some improvement. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ If love be good, from whence cometh my woe? \__/ Chaucer ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:08:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3F21AB6D.9104A0B2@alcyone.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:13:01 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <8phUa.146575$Ph3.18714@sccrnsc04> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-5ejeTS039s/KEX4tnagjXIKWtqllxSZ5TR/b1sP5vhG0wiMS7EmZGFlWJJVPuBW5aQMVJU+rODIZWf8!Be8ULvKHhtOZ8QbPCLs0oHrIrJbc9VyE0YUbsTyJXHldwNDOKLKBMVz/mLIARMmnecvMhukJ80IR!ciL9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147021 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > stanislav shalunov wrote: > > > Correct. 2 aleph_0 = alepth_0. > > You left out the carat. 2^aleph0 = aleph1 No, he didn't. Try reading what people are writing. You wrote the wrong equation, and were corrected. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ If love be good, from whence cometh my woe? \__/ Chaucer ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 26 Jul 03 10:33:59 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <6cgUa.146760$H17.51456@sccrnsc02> <3OiUa.146169$ye4.100487@sccrnsc01> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb7kwb1VAZE9T2AZsJRHurGcAvTXNYinyJdkT6Ibbwmb0YeeAPKHRPy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2003 11:35:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-183 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147053 In article <3OiUa.146169$ye4.100487@sccrnsc01>, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >George William Herbert wrote: > >> Nevertheless, we have a wide body of shared apparent communications, >> many media forms, large body of literature and art going back thousands >> of years in some cases, etc. > >You make my case for me (and I thank you). That is exactly what we do >not have in dealing with ancient texts written in "dead" languages. >There is no cultural context. The people who wrote Linear A. What do we >know about them. Do we know their thoughts, their customs. No. And we >can't translate their language either. There is no living link. > > > >> >> Your point is 'future people cannot be 100% sure they know what we >> were saying' and that's correct, but extrapolating to 'and therefore >> they will not be able to come to a reasonable working translation > >Define "reasonable". Something that you are -comfortable- with? Is there >an objective definition of reasonable? > > >> of a dead language' does not follow from its antecedent. We use >> counterexamples to that every day. > >Every "dead" language we translate today had a living link somewhere. We >did not get the translation cold. Using your logic, you cannot state that every dead language had a living link somewhere as an axiom. By doing so, you are assuming that the written characters were used for communication between two or more living beings. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 26 Jul 03 10:41:59 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbY1iCmgcDk/W3zdZkJ0to5kMXmzOlz02yeQ30rx3EPe2wqHKAW+/ek X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2003 11:43:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-183 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147055 In article , Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article , Brian Inglis > wrote: > >> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:00:02 BST in alt.folklore.computers, >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>> In article <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02>, "Robert J. Kolker" >>> wrote: > >>>> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>>>>> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >>>>> world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >>>>> is basically only one periodic table of elements. > >>>> Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical >>>> representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks >>>> on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no >>>> necessary connection to their meanings. > >>> It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. > >> Figuring out word groups from symbol patterns is probably not too hard, >> even common phrases from groups of words is possible. Figuring out what >> any of the words mean, even what part of speech they are, is impossible >> without some kind of context. To reference another thread, you >> effectively have a bunch of coded messages. Without a codebook or a >> crib, you can assign any meaning you like to any word, and it may make >> sense or not, you can't really tell. > >One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > >Sigh. > >I'm surprised that quite a few of the people in this discussion are >so lacking in the vision or perspicacity to even credit such a task, >like a lot of old men proclaiming that something is impossible until >someone younger with the nerve to ignore them just does it anyway. > >I seem to recall a book by Arthur C. Clarke on this very situation, >ascribing it to failures of imagination or failures of nerve, ITSBC. You appear to have picked up this thread in mid-drift. You are also making the assumption that physics and chemistry are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <3F21AB3B.1C9AD2F1@alcyone.com> <3F21C0FB.98F71C3D@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F21C0FB.98F71C3D@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Message-ID: <9kjUa.146336$ye4.100562@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059176837 24.62.143.251 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:47:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:47:17 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:47:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147049 Erik Max Francis wrote: > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >>But we are getting away from the main point. Given a finite beginning >>portion to a sequence over a finite alphabet there are countably many >>continuations that have the same start. > > > You said it was uncountably many before. Are you _sure_ we're getting > away from your point? Actually there are uncountably many but only a countable subset of these have an associated turning algorithm to generate them. Are we straight now? The point is there is -more than one- continuation which is why no one can claim their favorite hypothetical rule is correct. Why is one continuation better than another? What makes one right and the other wrong? Bob Kolker ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 18:25:53 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1bhe5ajfqm.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <3F21AB3B.1C9AD2F1@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.123.64.113 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1059179156 7276 128.123.64.113 (26 Jul 2003 00:25:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2003 00:25:56 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!lenny.tc.umn.edu!news.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147051 "Robert J. Kolker" writes: > > But we are getting away from the main point. Given a finite beginning > portion to a sequence over a finite alphabet there are countably many > continuations that have the same start. -Therefore- there is no unique > way of inferring the rule of the sequence from a finite beginning > sample. > > Do you deny this? Of course not. > Likewise given a finite set of fragmentary texts from a dead language > ( a language whose syntax, semantics and semiotics is unknown to us) > there is no guaranteed correct translation. Everyone who could tell > you if you are right or wrong is -dead-. We cannot channel the > dead. We can make some guesses which we like (and even congratulate > ourselves on how smart we are) but that is all subjective > horseshit. Objective verification is impossible. On the other hand, if a new fragment is discovered and translated according to the existing guesses, and the result is something that makes sense, it can be taken as evidence for the guesses. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Jul 2003 17:38:29 -0700 Organization: Dis- Message-ID: References: <6cgUa.146760$H17.51456@sccrnsc02> <3OiUa.146169$ye4.100487@sccrnsc01> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147043 Robert J. Kolker wrote: >George William Herbert wrote: >> Nevertheless, we have a wide body of shared apparent communications, >> many media forms, large body of literature and art going back thousands >> of years in some cases, etc. > >You make my case for me (and I thank you). That is exactly what we do >not have in dealing with ancient texts written in "dead" languages. >There is no cultural context. The people who wrote Linear A. What do we >know about them. Do we know their thoughts, their customs. No. And we >can't translate their language either. There is no living link. That's because all we have is the alphabet to go on, we don't have very much of it at all, and it didn't include any intentional useful self-keying tutorials anywhere. A copy of Encyclopedia Britannica is going to be a lot easier for someone to decipher from scratch than a bunch of fragments of Linear A. Now that we have figured out other languages the hard way, we know how to leave hints and keys which will be independently self evident to those in the future reading them. -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <6cgUa.146760$H17.51456@sccrnsc02> <3OiUa.146169$ye4.100487@sccrnsc01> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059181659 24.62.143.251 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:07:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:07:39 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:07:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147045 George William Herbert wrote: >> > A copy of Encyclopedia Britannica is going to be a lot easier > for someone to decipher from scratch than a bunch of fragments > of Linear A. If you pull out the diagrams, you have Linear A all over again. An ancient encylopedia from a dead culture with no ostensive indicators (pictures and artifacts) will yield no tranlation without a living link. All the marks in the world cannot define the semantics of a language. Even if a psuedo syntax could be imposed (that is possible) that leave zero data on the sematics. In short we would no what a gramitical expression was in this ancient language, but we would have no idea of the -meaning-. Suppose I give you a finite alphabet and some Post-production schemata for generating "grammatical" strings over this alphabet. Does that assign a meaning to the strings? It does not. You have to show how a language maps into the world to say you have translated it. Now suppose there is a sample book used to teach young one's the language in this dead civilization but it is loaded with pictures and perhaps comes with a box of artifacts. Then there might be a chance to learn this language in a meaningful way. If you think about it, the way we teach children a language is by ostensive definition (pointing to things and saying how they are called) and calling attentition to actions like walking, sitting, throwing etc and giving those actions a name. That is the link between a language and reality it is is the first one we must teach are children. After that we can use formal definitions which ultimately are based on ostensive definitions. Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <3F21AB3B.1C9AD2F1@alcyone.com> <1bhe5ajfqm.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> In-Reply-To: <1bhe5ajfqm.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059181998 24.62.143.251 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:13:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:13:18 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:13:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147040 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > On the other hand, if a new fragment is discovered and translated > according to the existing guesses, and the result is something that > makes sense, it can be taken as evidence for the guesses. Makes sense to whom. You who are alive. Would it have made sense to the one who originally wrote the material? You will never know. Why? Because that person or persons are dead and dust, that is way. The dead to not speak. No. Coherence and consistency is no substitute for objective truth. Objective truth is a matching between a statement that asserts the world is in such and such a state and the actual state of the world. Correspondence is the only basis for truth. All else is word games. Bob Kolker ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:23:44 -0500 Message-ID: <3F21D927.DE60A03B@alcyone.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:28:07 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <3F21AB3B.1C9AD2F1@alcyone.com> <3F21C0FB.98F71C3D@alcyone.com> <9kjUa.146336$ye4.100562@sccrnsc01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-UTLzFqNikp/yw5em+eSYX02iai4fT6kno5PX3BEkdLAgl0FoOoU0hNkXp9D2JAO6u/PF4xeKe43CMWn!7y1d5HQpKS9oosT31ch5BiTcIU783DaEv3TheOt6wPIRlzl3JsrzpkMGNzEK28dDBHfOtY6/BTUI!For6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147036 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Actually there are uncountably many ... No, there are countably many. > Are we straight now? You tell us, you're the one who seems to be getting himself confused. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names. \__/ John F. Kennedy ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 01:47:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1059184048 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:47:28 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:47:28 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147032 On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:31:26 BST in alt.folklore.computers, Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article , Brian Inglis > wrote: > >> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:00:02 BST in alt.folklore.computers, >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>> In article <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02>, "Robert J. Kolker" >>> wrote: > >>>> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>>>>> A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >>>>> world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >>>>> is basically only one periodic table of elements. > >>>> Not so. The meanings of words do not live in their physical >>>> representation but in the thoughts taking place in living brains. Marks >>>> on a paper (unless they are clearly representational art) have no >>>> necessary connection to their meanings. > >>> It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. > >> Figuring out word groups from symbol patterns is probably not too hard, >> even common phrases from groups of words is possible. Figuring out what >> any of the words mean, even what part of speech they are, is impossible >> without some kind of context. To reference another thread, you >> effectively have a bunch of coded messages. Without a codebook or a >> crib, you can assign any meaning you like to any word, and it may make >> sense or not, you can't really tell. > >One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > >Sigh. Read (a translation of) a medieval or earlier science book written in Greek or Latin for a different cultural view on explaining a common subject. Now imagine all you had was the original text (no diagrams or equations) and there was no common culture or language to help with the translation: would you even be able to identify the subject of the book as science? >I'm surprised that quite a few of the people in this discussion are >so lacking in the vision or perspicacity to even credit such a task, >like a lot of old men proclaiming that something is impossible until >someone younger with the nerve to ignore them just does it anyway. > >I seem to recall a book by Arthur C. Clarke on this very situation, >ascribing it to failures of imagination or failures of nerve, ITSBC. No one is saying it is impossible, but without some hooks into common knowledge elsewhere, assigning meaning to glyphs is going to be extremely difficult. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <3F21AB3B.1C9AD2F1@alcyone.com> <3F21C0FB.98F71C3D@alcyone.com> <9kjUa.146336$ye4.100562@sccrnsc01> <3F21D927.DE60A03B@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F21D927.DE60A03B@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059189606 24.62.143.251 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:20:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:20:06 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 03:20:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147047 Erik Max Francis wrote: > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > >>Actually there are uncountably many ... > > > No, there are countably many. If you ignore the question of a sequence being turing generatable, just count all the sequeces over the alphabet [0,1] that start with the same n letters. The set of such sequences can be put into one to one correspondences with all the sequences over [0,1] by definin a(n+k) of such a sequence to be b(k). Since there are uncountably many sequences b(k), k = 1, 2, ... and b(k) in [0,1] we have uncountably many sequences which which the same beginning n items. However if one insists that there be a finitely expressible rule for generating a sequence then there will be only a countable number of sequences (Turing generatable sequences) starting with a given finite head consisting of n characters. So you are now unconfused. Right? However this is overkill. My point, and I will repeat it for the last time, is if there are as little as two sequences beginning with the same n letter, one cannot claim to have inferred a correct generating rule (capable of generating an infinite sequece). Two rules are at work and they differences appear after n letter. So which one is right and which one is wrong? They are both right and they are both wrong. One can claim to have found THE RULE if and only if one sequence beginning with the given n letters exist. But we have shown this is impossible. Bob Kolker ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: fouldragon@aol.com.ru (Marada C. Shradrakaii) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 26 Jul 2003 07:07:53 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030726030753.14696.00000512@mb-m04.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147062 >A long-lost scientific culture (possibly on an extinct alien >world) should always remain decipherable; for example, there >is basically only one periodic table of elements. Assuming they used the same model for matter. (what if they just used the component items of atoms as their basic units, and considered our 'atoms' as compounds of a certain number of protons/neutrons/electrons?) Assuming they grouped elements in the same ways. (see previous statement, or perhaps elements were grouped by density, electric characteristic, or boiling point, rather than chemical properties) Assuming they weren't so far ahead or behind us that their table is recognizable (would a table with 5 or 400 elements be equally decipherable or even readily identified as the table, especially if based on a different model than Mendelev's design?) -- Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii On the Internet, all roads lead to either pornography or a GNU/Linux HOWTO. Which way are you going? Mail hint: Not in Russia ###### Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 10:14:51 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2003 08:41:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1207.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1059208870 maya.euronet.nl 151 194.134.212.188:1490 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!ircam.fr!news.completel.fr!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147078 On 25 Jul 2003 16:50:53 -0400 stanislav shalunov wrote: SS> Incorrect. The cardinality of the power set of integers is equal to SS> the cardinality of reals If you can prove that you will earn your place in the history of mathematics. I strongly suspect you cannot. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Jim Burns Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 13:00:43 -0400 Organization: Ohio State University Lines: 38 Message-ID: <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts21-8.homenet.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 1059239293 19484 140.254.113.159 (26 Jul 2003 17:08:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@osu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2003 17:08:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.service.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147110 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On 25 Jul 2003 16:50:53 -0400 > stanislav shalunov wrote: > > SS> Incorrect. The cardinality of the power set of integers is > SS> equal to the cardinality of reals [unsnip] : SS> ...and is denoted 2^{aleph_0} : SS> (often referred to as continuum). It may or may not be equal : SS> to aleph_1, which is notation for the smallest cardinality : SS> larger than aleph_0. > If you can prove that you will earn your place in the > history of mathematics. I strongly suspect you cannot. Actually, showing |P(N)| = 2^{aleph_0} = |R| is not so hard to do. It may be you are thinking of the the _continuum hypothesis_ (CH), that |R| = aleph_1, which is what Stanislav is referring to. http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_hypothesis Kurt Goedel and Paul Cohen showed that CH cannot be proven from the most commonly used axioms of set theory, Zermelo-Fraenkel (by KG in 1940), even with the axiom of choice (by PC in 1963). So, yes it would be remarkable if Stanislav could do that. The other thing, showing that |P(N)| = |R|, is not hard. I'm going to assume that you'd be satisfied by my showing |P(N)| = |[0,1]|, the cardinality of the reals between 0 and 1. Look at the binary "decimal" expansion of those reals, all numbers of the form 0.001110110110... Let each 1 correspond to the presence of an integer in a subset of N. Then {} ~ 0.00000..., {0} ~ 0.1000..., {1} ~ 0.0100..., {0,1} ~ 0.1100..., and so on, up to N ~ 0.11111... So, for every real in [0,1] there is exactly one subset of N, and for every subset of N, there is exactly one real in [0,1]. Jim Burns ###### From: "AMB" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:38:14 -0700 Organization: Sometimes Message-ID: <1059248753.889001@news.commspeed.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <24c6gvccmrhlbhe53a47fhqoqbcma2es5r@4ax.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Cache-Post-Path: news.commspeed.net!unknown@mmds-216-19-26-165.mm.az.commspeed.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147067 "Giles Todd" wrote in message news:p1dkgvsk209uh4k9ckhop70qnatshlfmo1@4ax.com... > On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:56:43 +0000 (UTC), pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul > Ciszek) wrote: > > > I was looking for some way to archive your personal stuff so that it could > > be recovered 20 years later if need be. Post-holocaust compatibility > > is not necessary, but ability to survive being forgotten about for a > > decade *is*. > > Listen, when I am dead, I want to be forgotten about. It's > embarrassing enough being remembered while I am alive. > > And you can forget all my deeds as well. > > OK? > > Giles. Right. Our ability to forget is underrated. Witness a local advocacy group that keeps advocating for accessible, affordable transportation every few years. I don't tell the newbies this or that approach has been tried before. Who knows? This group may finally get the right mix of political, economic and technical answers to the problems? On the other hand, some have said the decades after the Vietnam War were more peaceful, that some in the U.S. military remembered. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Message-ID: <3_BUa.135001$OZ2.26742@rwcrnsc54> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1059253247 12.237.120.43 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:00:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:00:47 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:00:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147042 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: > > >>>It helps a lot if there are pictures. > > >>No, it doesn't. I just read a book about ancient technology. We have >>pictures of boats, but they're on a vase so the dimensions are out of >>whack. > > > Yes it does. Go into any chinese library. Go to the childrens > department. See if you can't manage, with a fairly high certanity, by > the help of pictures in books, figure out what the chinese > representation for "cat" is. Repeat the exersize for dog, man, woman, 3, > car, water, tree, flower.... > > You're claiming this cannot be done. I'm saying I'd manage it with no > problem at all, and so would most 13-year olds if they where really > interested. > > >>Take a good hard look at the cave paintings in France. Everybody who >>is educated to evalutate them mumbles something about religion. >>Whenever I look at them, I see a school room to teach young males >>where to aim their spears. > > You have nothing even REMOTELY close to a complete encyclopedia in any > dead language. You're talking about something else. Everyone can see > that cave-painting X is some humans chasing a animal. No, we don't have anything like an encyclopedia for any dead language, but I don't think an encyclopedia would be anywhere near _enough_. Encyclopedia's don't include children's tutorials, for one thing. If I look in an encyclopedia, I can find many pictures of men, labelled variously as "King Louis XIV of France," "The Black Prince," "A typical Roman soldier of the 1st Century A.D.," or "A native of Borneo chewing betel nut." Which one of these sequences of characters is the word for "man"? --Larry ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1059253988 12.237.120.43 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:13:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:13:08 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:13:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147039 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > > Erik Max Francis wrote: > >> You are making the abstract argument of not ever being able to really >> know what someone else mean when you can't ask them. You're completely >> ignoring the practical side of things, especially when we're implicitly >> talking about messages by people who _want_ to be understood. But they were almost certainly not writing to be understood by someone who doesn't know their script, language, culture or history. They're not deliberately trying to obfuscate, but except for children's tutorials, people almost always assume a truly vast amount of background knowledge is already known by the intended audience. > Lets see. If you pick up a potshard with writing from 5000 bce you know > for sure that the person who made the scratches wasn't fooling around. > Riddles and paradoxes are as old as mankind. How do you know you have > anything that makes sense. The answer is you don't. You are only > -assuming- it makes sense. If that's the sole piece of evidence, yes. If it's one piece among many thousands or more, you can be much more confident. Of course, misunderstandings are still possible with full knowledge of the language and culture -- it's a prime source of comedy. --Larry ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1059254506 12.237.120.43 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:21:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:21:46 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:21:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147044 Tennant Stuart wrote: > In article , Brian Inglis > wrote: > >>Figuring out word groups from symbol patterns is probably not too hard, >>even common phrases from groups of words is possible. Figuring out what >>any of the words mean, even what part of speech they are, is impossible >>without some kind of context. To reference another thread, you >>effectively have a bunch of coded messages. Without a codebook or a >>crib, you can assign any meaning you like to any word, and it may make >>sense or not, you can't really tell. > > One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. It will only take you so far, though. Maybe it is just a failure of imagination on my part, but I honestly can't see how figuring out that some parts of some texts correspond to math, physics, chemistry or astronomy that is understood, is going to get you very far in understanding anything about an article regarding the political intrigues in the court of Louis XIII. There's too many concepts and words used that are alien to the hard sciences and I don't think they could be deduced. --Larry ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <6cgUa.146760$H17.51456@sccrnsc02> <3OiUa.146169$ye4.100487@sccrnsc01> In-Reply-To: <3OiUa.146169$ye4.100487@sccrnsc01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1059255543 12.237.120.43 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:39:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:39:03 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:39:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147119 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > > George William Herbert wrote: > >> Nevertheless, we have a wide body of shared apparent communications, >> many media forms, large body of literature and art going back thousands >> of years in some cases, etc. > > > You make my case for me (and I thank you). That is exactly what we do > not have in dealing with ancient texts written in "dead" languages. > There is no cultural context. The people who wrote Linear A. What do we > know about them. Do we know their thoughts, their customs. No. And we > can't translate their language either. There is no living link. We know _something_ about them. They're not a complete unknown. What we know of their language, though, are just guesses about the sounds the symbols meant, based on how the Mycenean Greeks adapted their script into Linear B. Also that their language was definitely not Indo-European. We do know their numbering system, too. That was fairly obvious with some study. Human numerical records and tables are by nature going to be fairly distinctive in many aspects. >> Your point is 'future people cannot be 100% sure they know what we >> were saying' and that's correct, but extrapolating to 'and therefore >> they will not be able to come to a reasonable working translation > > > Define "reasonable". Something that you are -comfortable- with? Is there > an objective definition of reasonable? > > >> of a dead language' does not follow from its antecedent. We use >> counterexamples to that every day. > > > Every "dead" language we translate today had a living link somewhere. We > did not get the translation cold. Too true, and even some of the ones we do have bi-linguals for, we still don't understand, such as Etruscan (there are Etruscan-Latin and Etruscan-Punic inscriptions), because there's just not enough of them. --Larry ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: <20030726030753.14696.00000512@mb-m04.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 01:25:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.153.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1059269138 216.80.153.111 (Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:25:38 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:25:38 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147117 On 26 Jul 2003 07:07:53 GMT, fouldragon@aol.com.ru (Marada C. Shradrakaii) wrote: >Assuming they weren't so far ahead or behind us that their table is >recognizable (would a table with 5 or 400 elements be equally decipherable or >even readily identified as the table, especially if based on a different model >than Mendelev's design?) A periodic table with 5 elements in it wouldn't make sense chemically (earth, water, air, fire, quintessence?) and one with 400 elements wouldn't exist. ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:04:38 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 55 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50872272.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059314678 20726 80.135.34.114 (27 Jul 2003 14:04:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:04:38 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!inka.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p50872272.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147131 On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >> I'm saying you can. ANY encyclopedia. Infact ANY work with sufficient >> collection of logical and meaningful sentences, given that you're >> willing to take the time. > Not if the encyclopedia is written in a dead language with no live > links, and has no pictures to help you figure out what is what. . Okay. Let's take these claims of yours one at a time. First, what does pictures have to do with it ? Are you saying it IS possible to be fairly (notice everyone except you is talking of PRACTICAL certanity, not mathemathical) sure of the meaning of a text with pictures and text, but not with only text ? If so, which intrinsic property of pictures make them different from other scribbles ? How can you KNOW that the picture of a cat isn't merely random pixels that just happened to look kinda like a cat ? In your universe you cannot. In the one where meaning exists, you can, if presented with a sufficient amount of evidence. Second, what's with the obsession with "dead" language ? Is there something you can learn from a conversation only if you self take part in it, and not if it is, for example, a old, written conversation in a dead language? If so, why does it make a difference if you are the source of some of the elements of the discussion or not ? If you listen to me having a conversation with someone about something, do I learn something you don't ? Does it make a difference if you're listening to us real-time and not on a old tape in a forgotten language ? Third, how does it help if the language is not dead ? You can ask the author what he meant. But how can you know that you interpret his reply correctly ? Or that he interprets your question correctly, given that there is, as you say, an infinite amount of possible meanings for any string of symbols. (I assume it makes no difference if the "symbols" consists of objects, scribblings, sounds or something else, if you disagree, please explain why.) You seem to be saying we can never be sure of anything. Mathemathically this is pretty close to true, in the sense I can not mathemathically proove that when I say "boat" your understanding of the word is similar to mine. In practice, this is seldom a problem. You seem to be claiming this should be a problem all the time, and only trough impossible luck can we EVER arrive at similar understandings of a symbol. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:09:03 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 19 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3_BUa.135001$OZ2.26742@rwcrnsc54> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50872272.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059314942 20907 80.135.34.114 (27 Jul 2003 14:09:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:09:02 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <3_BUa.135001$OZ2.26742@rwcrnsc54> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p50872272.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147132 On Sat, 26 Jul 2003, Larry Elmore wrote: > No, we don't have anything like an encyclopedia for any dead language, > but I don't think an encyclopedia would be anywhere near _enough_. > Encyclopedia's don't include children's tutorials, for one thing. Sure, we can argue over exactly how much material is needed to decode a totally unknown language. That's however not my point. I'm just saying with the rigth amount of material, it can be done. AND the collected remains of a technological civilization is likely to be more than enough. If the required amount is a single encyclopedia, or 100 books, or 1000 books is a minor detail. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:36:34 -0500 Message-ID: <3F243947.F2267C67@alcyone.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:42:47 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <3F21AB3B.1C9AD2F1@alcyone.com> <3F21C0FB.98F71C3D@alcyone.com> <9kjUa.146336$ye4.100562@sccrnsc01> <3F21D927.DE60A03B@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-D2mP4xyYcqVuDzUwxNcYUL+ZO769HyfqlTaZfONtsQBxAr0SQXAVkGSomlRar+d9WXfKGA4rjPTNzWM!sWfXFW06jtOA6KtHa7mqEZYGjzK/QuzQoFmTq00q0QyR8WRlB0v5q7Qz+uz2lP6cqpU00I1CwToK!n3nK X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147136 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > However this is overkill. My point, and I will repeat it for the last > time, ... Thank god. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ If I had another face, do you think I'd wear this one? \__/ Abraham Lincoln ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 15:38:19 -0500 Message-ID: <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:44:32 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-WwzVXDcjLkNNmv0nC8monYVAeOhorKqzWXZ+JRDRgZM5XRFCwZtNeAV0rdGOtCW6Ft2UkAhyvkYWlew!1hVcZGws1skbpnIxkdZ28I8uzGw7TG54FOO9HWWRiLM7v/FE2Ye5hSI4PhN5TbMj+5EW2DAneX1k!96ei X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147135 Larry Elmore wrote: > But they were almost certainly not writing to be understood by someone > who doesn't know their script, language, culture or history. They're > not > deliberately trying to obfuscate, but except for children's tutorials, > people almost always assume a truly vast amount of background > knowledge > is already known by the intended audience. "They"? We're talking about the general case of the possibility of decoding messages based on their contents only, not particular messages from the past. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ If I had another face, do you think I'd wear this one? \__/ Abraham Lincoln ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:42:54 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1fyrlwf.1bi7uv76qjp18N%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20D774.AAE1BC89@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1059342173 3728 166.84.199.79 (27 Jul 2003 21:42:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:42:53 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147146 John David Galt wrote: > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > And even pictorial symbols may be tricky. For example a picture of a bee > > may be a rhebus indicating use the sound for bee. However in an unknown > > language used by people dead and buried we don't know how that sounded. > > I've always wondered: if you put the Macintosh "dogcow" on a road sign, > how many different ways will drivers interpret that sign? Moof! -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 28 Jul 03 10:16:46 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3_BUa.135001$OZ2.26742@rwcrnsc54> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbGyyR6fLPrvb/cDMVfE1shLQ15dESBW1J/vPuyUrvXT/m4HXIu1fgu X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2003 11:18:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-244 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147171 In article , ekj@ekj.vestdata.no wrote: >On Sat, 26 Jul 2003, Larry Elmore wrote: > >> No, we don't have anything like an encyclopedia for any dead language, >> but I don't think an encyclopedia would be anywhere near _enough_. >> Encyclopedia's don't include children's tutorials, for one thing. > >Sure, we can argue over exactly how much material is needed to decode a >totally unknown language. > >That's however not my point. I'm just saying with the rigth amount of >material, it can be done. AND the collected remains of a technological >civilization is likely to be more than enough. What we're talking about is that these remains aren't going to be readable, detectable, nor translatable without the software to decode it. Let's take something that isn't tech. A recipe. How do you "decode" the weights and measurements? > >If the required amount is a single encyclopedia, or 100 books, or 1000 >books is a minor detail. Now think of the so-called encyclopedia that is distributed by Misoft, errors and all. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 28 Jul 03 10:36:53 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaYtH0aNYKaWT+1skwNO82T8Ux3gQzWchJf4XFZeziUBk1/nHbWCNT2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2003 11:38:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-244 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147170 In article , Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article , >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > >> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). > >Indeed? Please prove that assertion. > Technically, black holes, big bang +a few seconds, chemistry done at different elevations and the unknowns of less Planck length. Then we can talk about evolutions of theories. Newtonian physics works just fine for a certain class of problems. Changes were developed to account for experimental anomolies. It's a nice analogy for why software changes over the years. /BAH ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:38:49 BST Message-ID: References: <6cgUa.146760$H17.51456@sccrnsc02> <3OiUa.146169$ye4.100487@sccrnsc01> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust137.tnt2.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059353295 news.dial.pipex.com 961 62.188.105.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147179 In article , gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) wrote: > A copy of Encyclopedia Britannica is going to be a lot easier > for someone to decipher from scratch than a bunch of fragments > of Linear A. > Now that we have figured out other languages the hard way, > we know how to leave hints and keys which will be independently > self evident to those in the future reading them. Absolutely. > -george william herbert BTW... have you ever realised that "Herbert, George William" is an awful lot like the famous SF writer "Herbert George Wells"? ;) Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:40:08 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust137.tnt2.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059353297 news.dial.pipex.com 961 62.188.105.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.telebyte.nl!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!195.129.110.21.MISMATCH!bnewsfeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsinpeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147176 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:31:26 BST in alt.folklore.computers, > Tennant Stuart wrote: >> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > Read (a translation of) a medieval or earlier science book > written in Greek or Latin for a different cultural view on > explaining a common subject. Now imagine all you had was the > original text (no diagrams or equations) and there was no common > culture or language to help with the translation: would you even > be able to identify the subject of the book as science? I'm not talking about medieval or earlier civilisations. I'm talking about future generations looking back at us, or we examining some extinct alien culture of about our level. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:41:30 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust137.tnt2.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059353311 news.dial.pipex.com 961 62.188.105.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147178 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Tennant Stuart wrote: >> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry > are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). Indeed? Please prove that assertion. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### Message-ID: <3F248717.2445B17F@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20D774.AAE1BC89@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> <1fyrlwf.1bi7uv76qjp18N%proto@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1059351493 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:18:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:18:13 GMT Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:18:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147180 Walter Bushell wrote: > > John David Galt wrote: > > > "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > > And even pictorial symbols may be tricky. For example a picture of a bee > > > may be a rhebus indicating use the sound for bee. However in an unknown > > > language used by people dead and buried we don't know how that sounded. > > > > I've always wondered: if you put the Macintosh "dogcow" on a road sign, > > how many different ways will drivers interpret that sign? > > Moof! > Since Apple changed the name of their word processor from Clarisword to Applesoft something-or-other, I am *not* sure if we are allowed to discuss Claris the Dogcow anymore... ;-) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Duncan Wood Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:22:22 +0100 Organization: Duncan Wood Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3_BUa.135001$OZ2.26742@rwcrnsc54> Reply-To: replynews1@dmx512.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: techie.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1059351701 9863 80.177.26.50 (28 Jul 2003 00:21:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:21:41 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Opera7.10/Win32 M2 build 2840 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147175 On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:09:03 +0200, wrote: > On Sat, 26 Jul 2003, Larry Elmore wrote: > >> No, we don't have anything like an encyclopedia for any dead language, >> but I don't think an encyclopedia would be anywhere near _enough_. >> Encyclopedia's don't include children's tutorials, for one thing. > > Sure, we can argue over exactly how much material is needed to decode a > totally unknown language. > > That's however not my point. I'm just saying with the rigth amount of > material, it can be done. AND the collected remains of a technological > civilization is likely to be more than enough. > > If the required amount is a single encyclopedia, or 100 books, or 1000 > books is a minor detail. > > > Sincerely, > Eivind Kjørstad > Well unless you've got 99 of them ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:52:33 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20D774.AAE1BC89@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> <1fyrlwf.1bi7uv76qjp18N%proto@panix.com> <3F248717.2445B17F@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: il0502a-dhcp234.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1059353552 2056 17.205.24.234 (28 Jul 2003 00:52:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 00:52:32 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!il0502a-dhcp234.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147174 In article <3F248717.2445B17F@ev1.net>, richmond@ev1.net wrote: > I am *not* sure > if we are allowed to discuss Claris the Dogcow anymore... ;-) > The Dogcow's name is "Clarus" ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059354514 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:08:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:08:34 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:08:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147164 Jim Burns wrote: > So, for every real in [0,1] there is exactly one subset of N, > and for every subset of N, there is exactly one real in [0,1]. .011111111111111111111111111111111111111.... = .10 = .1000000000.... Do we have a problem? Bob Kolker ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Message-ID: <_R_Ua.162342$ye4.109272@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059355130 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:18:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:18:50 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:18:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147168 John Schilling wrote: > Storing the OTP in a read-once medium is the way to deal with that threat. > Quantum cryptography is the only way to accomplish this that is guaranteed > by the laws of physics, but reasonably good practical approximations can be > engineered using classical techniques. Come up with a 100 percent assurance that the RO disk that was delivered was the one that was sent originally. Consider an attack which substitutes a bogus pair of disks for the real ones. OTP is overrated which is why it is not used much. Bob Kolker ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:45:03 -0500 Message-ID: <3F248147.E4B4DE7E@alcyone.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:49:59 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-BwXmyCLjEKOv4hcwcC6j/g4B7E5liRqkgIojDv6v0ZtZzLqHgX7C8CLEeWeneLa8sn7pjdh0bKK/2V/!CCzDBCnzjCWjKccgWKm102YSUuxsr2IhU2Sjnt2S6bnW96n5PtgbJ+RSmPS14K6qpGvwCl/a+qDO!Ulxg X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147158 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > Jim Burns wrote: > > > So, for every real in [0,1] there is exactly one subset of N, > > and for every subset of N, there is exactly one real in [0,1]. > > .011111111111111111111111111111111111111.... = .10 = .1000000000.... > > Do we have a problem? No, because those are all the same real number. They're just different names for it. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ My life was better before I knew you. \__/ Edith Wharton (to Morton Fullerton) ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:47:01 -0500 Message-ID: <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:51:56 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-wgbehE/9q4VQEM8+Z0SlfYtfr2uXyRxkvaE7cg4kDKHaWxw6y41mn1uz0SASH1JWznkif301O/QpZqw!5XhjTWdd/puWJHfMaHIzlkv4h67OHtGGOmN/Bn2MNROdNBuyzT7WfzneW2S9NuiFO7b6r9xTKXIz!16rm X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147155 Tennant Stuart wrote: > In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry > > are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). > > Indeed? Please prove that assertion. It's certainly not known without a doubt that it's true, but a great deal of modern astronomy and cosmology relies on it being true. The general name for the idea is the mediocrity principle. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ My life was better before I knew you. \__/ Edith Wharton (to Morton Fullerton) ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059361869 12.237.120.43 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 03:11:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 03:11:09 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 03:11:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147162 Erik Max Francis wrote: > Larry Elmore wrote: >> Erik Max Francis wrote: >> >>> You are making the abstract argument of not ever being able to really >>> know what someone else mean when you can't ask them. You're completely >>> ignoring the practical side of things, especially when we're implicitly >>> talking about messages by people who _want_ to be understood. > >>But they were almost certainly not writing to be understood by someone >>who doesn't know their script, language, culture or history. They're >>not >>deliberately trying to obfuscate, but except for children's tutorials, >>people almost always assume a truly vast amount of background >>knowledge >>is already known by the intended audience. > > "They"? We're talking about the general case of the possibility of > decoding messages based on their contents only, not particular messages > from the past. Yes, "they." You said "them" in the paragraph I was responding to, then said, "especially when we're implicitly talking about messages by people who _want_ to be understood." "People" are "they," aren't they? My point, which apparently flew right over your head, was that nearly all messages ever written have been intended for a particular reader or audience, and that while no efforts have been made to intentionally make it more difficult for anyone else to understand, that doesn't mean anybody will ever be able to read Proto-Elamite records (of which there are an abundance) because the Proto-Elamite scribes _weren't writing for a non-Proto-Elamite audience_. Since the language does not survive, nor do we even know what languages it was related to in antiquity (let alone now), it's virtually certain we will never understand more than the numerical parts unless we find a substantial bi-lingual inscription that can connect it with something we know or can know. We do understand the numerical parts fairly well, enough to know that they used base 10 when counting some quantities, but base 60 when counting others, but not much more. --Larry --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 22:15:22 -0500 Message-ID: <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 20:21:39 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-l0QwsZai0ZDla5XnpoPdkjmkZlHioFyqhJ18HIB2CVzOTRh25YJgFEXRCoseInK1vKSDec7TSbCI+TQ!Q5HdY78fknhXm55MoiCd3WaSiKaQYlTytJTI8R8RRTwL7Va7u5n3am+lzEDj4yv7ZYowYMe4F0Ur!CU2A X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147157 Larry Elmore wrote: > My point, which apparently flew right over your head, was that nearly > all messages ever written have been intended for a particular reader > or > audience, and that while no efforts have been made to intentionally > make > it more difficult for anyone else to understand, ... Look at the Subject. Read the origin of the subthread. Keep in mind people have been talking about encyclopedias as examples. Rethink your point. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ What do women want? \__/ Sigmund Freud ###### From: Jim Burns Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:40:48 -0400 Organization: Ohio State University Lines: 48 Message-ID: <3F249B40.99D70109@osu.edu> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-15.homenet.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 1059364101 19286 140.254.112.118 (28 Jul 2003 03:48:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@osu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2003 03:48:21 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.service.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147182 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > Jim Burns wrote: > > > So, for every real in [0,1] there is exactly one subset of N, > > and for every subset of N, there is exactly one real in [0,1]. > > .0111111111111111111111111111.... = .10 = .1000000000.... > > Do we have a problem? Yes, we have a problem. I was sloppy, as was also pointed out to me today in another thread, in another newsgroup, that oddly enough was on the same topic. It is, however, fixable with a bit more care. It just won't be as pretty when I'm done. We need two different maps, f: [0,1] -> P(N) and g: P(N) -> [0,1], both of them one-to-one, so that, eg, if f(x) = S and f(y) = T and x != y, then S != T. From f we know that there is at least one subset of N in P(N) for every real in [0,1]. An equivalent condition on the function g gives us that there is at least one real in [0,1] for every subset of N in P(N). Together they imply that |[0,1]| = |P(N)|. Let f: [0,1] -> P(N) use the same correspondence between the base-2 expansion of the reals and the subsets of N that I used before, except that now I specify that if there is a choice between representing x in [0,1] with trailing zeroes or trailing ones, pick the trailing zeroes. Every x in [0,1] gets assigned a different subset of N. Therefore there are at least as many subsets of N in P(N) as there are reals in [0,1]. Let g: P(N) -> [0,1] use what looks like same correspondence that I've been using, {} -> 0.0000..., {0} -> 0.1000..., N -> 0.1111..., but instead of being a base-2 expansion of the reals, it's a base-3 expansion. We still have (0) -> 0.1000... = 0.0222..., but there is no other set that will map to 0.0222... So, for every subset of N in P(N), there is at least one real in [0,1]. Taken together, we can say that there are exactly as many reals in [0,1] as there are subsets of N in P(N), or |[0,1]| = |P(N)|. Jim Burns ###### Message-ID: <3F24AA70.5791@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> From: "H. E. Taylor" Organization: Organization? What organization?! X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:45:36 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.187.73.4 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 1059360330 66.187.73.4 (Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:45:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:45:30 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147173 In article <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Tennant Stuart wrote: >> In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >>> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). >> >> Indeed? Please prove that assertion. > > It's certainly not known without a doubt that it's true, but a great > deal of modern astronomy and cosmology relies on it being true. The > general name for the idea is the mediocrity principle. > Has anyone done useful work assuming that 'physics and chemistry are _not_ the same everywhere'? -het -- "Challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you." -olde Vulcan saying How's yer crap detector? http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/detector.html H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/ ###### Message-ID: <3F24D76C.CF2C3612@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20D774.AAE1BC89@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> <1fyrlwf.1bi7uv76qjp18N%proto@panix.com> <3F248717.2445B17F@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1059372058 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 06:00:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 06:00:58 GMT Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 06:00:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147181 Al Kossow wrote: > > In article <3F248717.2445B17F@ev1.net>, richmond@ev1.net wrote: > > > I am *not* sure > > if we are allowed to discuss Claris the Dogcow anymore... ;-) > > > > The Dogcow's name is "Clarus" > I stand corrected...Clarus *is* the dogcow...but IMHO I think it is related in origin to the Claris of Clarisworks. Note: There is a petition to bring back the dogcow in MAC/OS X...see the following web page: -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 06:20:30 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147165 Erik Max Francis wrote: >Larry Elmore wrote: > >> My point, which apparently flew right over your head, was that nearly >> all messages ever written have been intended for a particular reader >> or >> audience, and that while no efforts have been made to intentionally >> make >> it more difficult for anyone else to understand, ... > >Look at the Subject. Read the origin of the subthread. Keep in mind >people have been talking about encyclopedias as examples. Rethink your >point. Some encyclopedias have been written to be less than understandable even for native-language readers. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 28 Jul 2003 01:41:36 -0700 Organization: Retro Aerospace Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <_R_Ua.162342$ye4.109272@sccrnsc01> X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!retro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147156 Robert J. Kolker wrote: >OTP is overrated Perhaps, but your arguments are not well founded. >which is why it is not used much. What universe are you living in? National governments have been shipping CD-ROMs full of pseudo-random data around for exactly that use for decades. In fact, they rarely trust anything *else*, as the key distribution mechanisms for other stuff are just as vulnerable, plus there are theoretical ways in to most other code systems (albeit often very computationally hard if done right). -george william herbert gherbert@retro.com ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> <3F248147.E4B4DE7E@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F248147.E4B4DE7E@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1059391391 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:23:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:23:11 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:23:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147160 Erik Max Francis wrote: > > No, because those are all the same real number. They're just different > names for it. Look at the way Jim Burns defined his correspondence. I quote: ---- The other thing, showing that |P(N)| = |R|, is not hard. I'm going to assume that you'd be satisfied by my showing |P(N)| = |[0,1]|, the cardinality of the reals between 0 and 1. Look at the binary "decimal" expansion of those reals, all numbers of the form 0.001110110110... Let each 1 correspond to the presence of an integer in a subset of N. Then {} ~ 0.00000..., {0} ~ 0.1000..., {1} ~ 0.0100..., {0,1} ~ 0.1100..., and so on, up to N ~ 0.11111... So, for every real in [0,1] there is exactly one subset of N, and for every subset of N, there is exactly one real in [0,1]. ----- The sequences .0100.... and .001111..... define two distinct subsets of N. What you said is true, but it shows Burn's correspondence is erroneous. Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8K7Va.146010$GL4.37754@rwcrnsc53> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1059391492 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:24:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:24:52 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:24:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147159 Erik Max Francis wrote: > It's certainly not known without a doubt that it's true, but a great > deal of modern astronomy and cosmology relies on it being true. The > general name for the idea is the mediocrity principle. So it is true, because we want it to be true? A definite statement about the world is either true or false regardless of principles, mediocre or otherwise. Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <_R_Ua.162342$ye4.109272@sccrnsc01> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1059391955 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:32:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:32:35 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:32:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147183 George William Herbert wrote: > Robert J. Kolker wrote: > >>OTP is overrated > > > Perhaps, but your arguments are not well founded. > > >>which is why it is not used much. > > > What universe are you living in? This one. OTP-s are not used as military field codes. Precisely because of the key distribution problem. The German's knew how to make OTPs but they used the Enigma system in WW2. If they were a bit more careful in their key management and had two more rotors the Allies would not have been able to touch it. Public/Private Key encryption can be made hard enough to be suitible for military use. And there is no key distribution problem. The safety of the code dependes purely on the inverse encryption function being hard to compute from the original. Bob Kolker ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 07:08:34 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.66 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1059396408 205.206.39.66 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:46:48 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:46:48 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147192 In article , schillin@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling) wrote: >Storing the OTP in a read-once medium is the way to deal with that threat. >Quantum cryptography is the only way to accomplish this that is guaranteed >by the laws of physics, but reasonably good practical approximations can be >engineered using classical techniques. This solves the problem where finally capturing the pad lets the enemy read all previously sent messages. Thus classical pads which used one sheet per message, and destroyed the sheet once it was used. Similar in that regard to Leo Marks' one-time keys. It would seem that when there was a mole near the top, Philby, say, leaking the secret information itself was easier than sneaking copies of keys. Regards. Mel. ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com> <3F24AA70.5791@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 07:21:44 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.66 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1059396409 205.206.39.66 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:46:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:46:49 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147191 In article <3F24AA70.5791@despam.autobahn.mb.ca>, "H. E. Taylor" wrote: >In article <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com>, > Erik Max Francis wrote: >> Tennant Stuart wrote: >>> In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >>>> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). >>> >>> Indeed? Please prove that assertion. >> >> It's certainly not known without a doubt that it's true, but a great >> deal of modern astronomy and cosmology relies on it being true. The >> general name for the idea is the mediocrity principle. >> > > > > Has anyone done useful work assuming that 'physics and chemistry > are _not_ the same everywhere'? > > "It's ueful, Jim, but not as we know it." Regards. Mel. ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 02:28:04 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust161.tnt1.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059417624 news.dial.pipex.com 11383 62.188.100.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!draco.tiscalinet.it!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147205 In article , Larry Elmore wrote: > Tennant Stuart wrote: >> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > It will only take you so far, though. Maybe it is just a failure of > imagination on my part, but I honestly can't see how figuring out that > some parts of some texts correspond to math, physics, chemistry or > astronomy that is understood, is going to get you very far in > understanding anything about an article regarding the political > intrigues in the court of Louis XIII. There's too many concepts and > words used that are alien to the hard sciences and I don't think they > could be deduced. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. :) Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:32:41 -0500 Message-ID: <3F256DCA.F746075F@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:39:06 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com> <8K7Va.146010$GL4.37754@rwcrnsc53> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-Wwudvrf1J/YlFQcXaX3wJLiKiTE+7I01+e/K5lxt+rGJhmiI/nRogtZKKfkAWyPRPvR6uT+H0tPSWNh!MiJ0thxKBSGTnyOHSXnWJslF+LyQLwFe76+0llNaW3DR1OgljV8oIk+65+r5nIaNwnVavim+X398!jtoA X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147200 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > So it is true, because we want it to be true? A definite statement > about > the world is either true or false regardless of principles, mediocre > or > otherwise. No, it's a principle, so it is the scientific equivalent of a mathematical axiom (except that principles can be easily abandoned). In science you need some groundwork in which to get started, and that's what principles are for. The mediocrity principle seems valuable, since 1. it is a very reasonable proposition -- the mediocrity principle simply states that our place and time in the Universe is no different than any other -- and 2. observation of the Solar System, our stellar neighborhood, our Galaxy, and other galaxies indicates very strongly that, unless you're going to suggest there's some grand conspiracy in place, physics and chemistry work the same in distant galaxies as they do here. Spectroscopy works because atoms in distant stars and galaxies are of the same kind and behave the same way that atoms do here. It has the added benefit, as I mentioned, that if it weren't true, observation of the night sky for scientific evaluation would be nearly pointless. So it's just as well that it works out that way. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ I would rather understand one cause than be king of Persia. \__/ Democritus ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:36:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3F256EC1.EACCCFA@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:43:13 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-Ryo8WifznXLklh/ghEzEq7bqMkGPLiersXwdoUB1B2Cy+OHlaymGM0+Wji4r0iVR2SYT9jyie8ZUm88!EdiNkfAKaDIDjjXGdnSLjTRu3/tmD8xv61TQAb5aMd1L5J2PbFL3wUsJH6axE8RnqBY7ooRf9FG2!AoI= X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147199 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Technically, black holes, big bang +a few seconds, chemistry > done at different elevations and the unknowns of less Planck > length. > > Then we can talk about evolutions of theories. Newtonian physics > works just fine for a certain class of problems. Changes were > developed to account for experimental anomolies. That's not really what the mediocrity principle is about. Certainly _conditions_ can vary -- e.g., the liquid metallic hydrogen ocean near the core of Jupiter -- but it's the same stuff doing the same thing. The mediocrity principle doesn't literally mean that everything is the same and always has been, it just means that we don't live anywhere particularly special. The mediocrity principle started with Copernicus, and moved on with Shapley and Hubble. The mediocrity principle is akin to the relativity principle -- the idea is about places and times where _things work fundamentally differently_. It would be something like special frames, not something where the physics required to describe something is more advanced then we see in everyday life (e.g., extreme densities, pressures, etc.). -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ I would rather understand one cause than be king of Persia. \__/ Democritus ###### From: schillin@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 28 Jul 2003 14:46:15 -0700 Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 43 Sender: nntp@spock.usc.edu Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: spock.usc.edu X-Trace: usc.edu 1059428777 26659 128.125.9.30 (28 Jul 2003 21:46:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@usc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jul 2003 21:46:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!usc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147210 mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) writes: >In article , >schillin@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling) wrote: >>Storing the OTP in a read-once medium is the way to deal with that threat. >>Quantum cryptography is the only way to accomplish this that is guaranteed >>by the laws of physics, but reasonably good practical approximations can be >>engineered using classical techniques. > This solves the problem where finally capturing the pad >lets the enemy read all previously sent messages. Thus >classical pads which used one sheet per message, and >destroyed the sheet once it was used. Similar in that >regard to Leo Marks' one-time keys. It similarly solves the problem of someone in key distribution being the mole and stealing the pads before use. If only two copies of each OTP are made, and they are robustly read-once, you can't make a secret copy to send to your true masters and still leave an intact original for the other side to unwittingly use. > It would seem that when there was a mole near the top, >Philby, say, leaking the secret information itself was >easier than sneaking copies of keys. Right. If the mole is in a position to legitimately read the decrypted messages, it isn't a crypto failure. -- *John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, * *Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" * *Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition * *White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute * *schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" * *661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition * ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059431085 12.237.120.43 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:24:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:24:45 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:24:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147208 Erik Max Francis wrote: > Larry Elmore wrote: > > >>My point, which apparently flew right over your head, was that nearly >>all messages ever written have been intended for a particular reader >>or >>audience, and that while no efforts have been made to intentionally >>make >>it more difficult for anyone else to understand, ... > > > Look at the Subject. Read the origin of the subthread. Keep in mind > people have been talking about encyclopedias as examples. Rethink your > point. Why? Encyclopaedia Britannica is hardly written with an eye to being understood by a non-English-reading audience. I guarantee you that even a future human civilization would find maddening gaps in what the Britannica covers (and how it covers things) simply because there are many things that seem so basic that it's not worth mentioning to an audience advanced enough to be reading it in the first place. Instead of being obtuse, please offer a counter-example. --Larry ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:31:02 -0500 Message-ID: <3F25A55C.C1ED45B0@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:36:12 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-MbDfVl3ke5zIGr4Gj5f91PjamWqqB9/p+n/ORy8BgoHH/cJVjWt93vxLtD6Qly7PWrsRy+zyYpOx+kw!VdHyfHDQHDJY6Tmw/znL/LSVfFu+DTTO0BF6Fe+emZfV5GyCvu7s/J0whScc4jHvERAnc7GR0wbJ!iHGR X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147209 Larry Elmore wrote: > Why? Encyclopaedia Britannica is hardly written with an eye to being > understood by a non-English-reading audience. I guarantee you that > even > a future human civilization would find maddening gaps in what the > Britannica covers (and how it covers things) simply because there are > many things that seem so basic that it's not worth mentioning to an > audience advanced enough to be reading it in the first place. We have deciphered a great number of dead languages from a hell of a lot less than an encyclopedia. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ No man is more cheated than the selfish man. \__/ Henry Ward Beecher ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> <3F249B40.99D70109@osu.edu> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059433818 24.62.143.251 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:10:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:10:18 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:10:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147207 Tom Morley wrote: > > > This works. Schieder-Berstein (sp?) to the rescue. Bernstein-Schroeder. Bob Kolker > ###### Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:26:21 +0200 From: Segher Boessenkool User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20D774.AAE1BC89@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> <1fyrlwf.1bi7uv76qjp18N%proto@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <1fyrlwf.1bi7uv76qjp18N%proto@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3f25dbc6$0$28908$1b62eedf@news.euronet.nl> Organization: EuroNet Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2003 02:28:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p2850.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1059445703 news.euronet.nl 28908 194.134.219.43:49156 X-Complaints-To: abuse@euronet.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147232 Walter Bushell wrote: >>>And even pictorial symbols may be tricky. For example a picture of a bee >>>may be a rhebus indicating use the sound for bee. However in an unknown >>>language used by people dead and buried we don't know how that sounded. >> >>I've always wondered: if you put the Macintosh "dogcow" on a road sign, >>how many different ways will drivers interpret that sign? > > Moof! /* from Traps.h */ enum { _Unimplemented = 0xA89F, _InitDogCow = 0xA89F, _EnableDogCow = 0xA89F, _DisableDogCow = 0xA89F, _Moof = 0xA89F }; /* Moof indeed! */ ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> <3F25A55C.C1ED45B0@alcyone.com> In-Reply-To: <3F25A55C.C1ED45B0@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1059436358 12.237.120.43 (Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:52:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:52:38 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:52:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147219 Erik Max Francis wrote: > Larry Elmore wrote: > > >>Why? Encyclopaedia Britannica is hardly written with an eye to being >>understood by a non-English-reading audience. I guarantee you that >>even >>a future human civilization would find maddening gaps in what the >>Britannica covers (and how it covers things) simply because there are >>many things that seem so basic that it's not worth mentioning to an >>audience advanced enough to be reading it in the first place. > > > We have deciphered a great number of dead languages from a hell of a lot > less than an encyclopedia. Name one where we didn't have bi- or tri-lingual copies of writings, with one version in a language and script that we already understood. --Larry ###### From: Tom Morley Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 22:20:49 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F20C5A8.2D47D876@alcyone.com> <3F217D29.EB51C076@alcyone.com> <_cfUa.144820$ye4.99427@sccrnsc01> <3F21853A.7BA77543@alcyone.com> <87vftq2ydh.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <3F218C25.C0B89BEE@alcyone.com> <87brvi2uvm.fsf@cain.internet2.edu> <20030726101451.0ba0f553.steveo@eircom.net> <3F22B3BB.44172229@osu.edu> <3F249B40.99D70109@osu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.81.56 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 29 Jul 2003 02:20:17 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030314 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147234 Robert J. Kolker wrote: > > > Tom Morley wrote: > >> >> >> This works. Schieder-Berstein (sp?) to the rescue. > > > > Bernstein-Schroeder. > > Bob Kolker > >> > Yep. Its been a long semester. -- Tom Morley | Same roads morley@math.gatech.edu | Same rights tmorley@mindspring.com | Same rules AIM: DocTDM ###### Message-ID: <3F262757.7F085CFF@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1056965429.994786@saucer.planet.gong> <8qD5B6hHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20D774.AAE1BC89@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> <1fyrlwf.1bi7uv76qjp18N%proto@panix.com> <3f25dbc6$0$28908$1b62eedf@news.euronet.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059458053 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:54:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:54:13 GMT Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:54:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147238 Segher Boessenkool wrote: > > Walter Bushell wrote: > >>>And even pictorial symbols may be tricky. For example a picture of a bee > >>>may be a rhebus indicating use the sound for bee. However in an unknown > >>>language used by people dead and buried we don't know how that sounded. > >> > >>I've always wondered: if you put the Macintosh "dogcow" on a road sign, > >>how many different ways will drivers interpret that sign? > > > > Moof! > > /* from Traps.h */ > enum { > _Unimplemented = 0xA89F, > _InitDogCow = 0xA89F, > _EnableDogCow = 0xA89F, > _DisableDogCow = 0xA89F, > _Moof = 0xA89F > }; > /* Moof indeed! */ > Quite obviously, "moof!" is the sound made by the dogcow. That should be clear to the most casual observer (listener)... ;-) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:45:15 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1059461116 5935 10.0.0.1 (29 Jul 2003 06:45:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:45:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hOEV-0001Xa-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 06:45:15 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147240 In article ljelmore@comcast.net "Larry Elmore" writes: > Erik Max Francis wrote: > > > > We have deciphered a great number of dead languages from a hell of a lot > > less than an encyclopedia. > > Name one where we didn't have bi- or tri-lingual copies of writings, > with one version in a language and script that we already understood. Linear B? Mind you, that was an inspired bit of guesswork by Ventris & Chadwick. Not that I'm in any way attempting to support the rather sweeping statement that Erik made. (Still waiting for Etruscan to be deciphered; as was Claudius, and it had been dead for a far shorter period in his time.) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:50:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1059465037 24.71.223.147 (Tue, 29 Jul 2003 01:50:37 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 01:50:37 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147242 On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:40:08 BST in alt.folklore.computers, Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article , Brian Inglis > wrote: > >> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:31:26 BST in alt.folklore.computers, >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > >> Read (a translation of) a medieval or earlier science book >> written in Greek or Latin for a different cultural view on >> explaining a common subject. Now imagine all you had was the >> original text (no diagrams or equations) and there was no common >> culture or language to help with the translation: would you even >> be able to identify the subject of the book as science? > >I'm not talking about medieval or earlier civilisations. > >I'm talking about future generations looking back at us, or >we examining some extinct alien culture of about our level. You don't think we might look like archaic, quaint, and long-winded writers to future generations? You don't think an extinct alien culture might be quaint, weird, and, well, alien, to the point where it might be difficult to decide just what it's culture was based on? Every branch of science and technology creates its own jargon to communicate more efficiently. Each jargon depends on the languages in which fundamental concepts and ideas are communicated and on the different paths taken during development of a corpus of knowledge in those areas in which each language is used. As time and thinking progresses, information is compressed into laws, theories, hypotheses, conjectures, etc. which are associated with the names of their primary communicators in our culture. Without a historical corpus in a subject, and ability to understand that corpus, how meaningful would technical articles be which refer to basic knowledge encoded as combinations of people's names, and other information referred to using words which have common meanings, possibly in a different language, but a specialized meaning in one area of jargon? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 29 Jul 03 10:33:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F256EC1.EACCCFA@alcyone.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb6onlZgjdoKeSMpDiqm8vlERxdA4DP54LnynddUUorDYMoJd2kBqkr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2003 11:34:43 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-123 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147260 In article <3F256EC1.EACCCFA@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Technically, black holes, big bang +a few seconds, chemistry >> done at different elevations and the unknowns of less Planck >> length. >> >> Then we can talk about evolutions of theories. Newtonian physics >> works just fine for a certain class of problems. Changes were >> developed to account for experimental anomolies. > >That's not really what the mediocrity principle is about. I never heard of it. > ... Certainly >_conditions_ can vary -- e.g., the liquid metallic hydrogen ocean near >the core of Jupiter -- but it's the same stuff doing the same thing. Sigh! Think about what we're talking about. Analogy time: A cake recipe will not work at sea level if it's been developed and documented at Jupiter level. If you don't know about the pressure of Jupiter, there may be some trouble in decoding that recipe. First you have to identify the fact that it is a recipe. >The mediocrity principle doesn't literally mean that everything is the >same and always has been, it just means that we don't live anywhere >particularly special. The mediocrity principle started with Copernicus, >and moved on with Shapley and Hubble. Ya, ya. You're thread drifting. > >The mediocrity principle is akin to the relativity principle -- the idea >is about places and times where _things work fundamentally differently_. >It would be something like special frames, not something where the >physics required to describe something is more advanced then we see in >everyday life (e.g., extreme densities, pressures, etc.). Look. The statement that, as long as there were physics and chemistry in the culture, the documents of that culture could be translated. I think that the more technical a culture is, the less we will be able to translate because not all details are documented. Encode those technical details based on some figment of Misfot's visciousness, and I don't think translation is trivial, let alone this side of possible. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:11:57 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030729071157.704270b4.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jul 2003 17:00:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p2146.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1059498005 maya.euronet.nl 152 212.129.228.98:1228 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147280 On 28 Jul 2003 14:46:15 -0700 schillin@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling) wrote: JS> If only two JS> copies of each OTP are made, and they are robustly read-once, JS> you can't make a secret copy to send to your true masters and JS> still leave an intact original for the other side to unwittingly JS> use. But you have the bits so you can make a new once-readable copy that may be difficult to tell from the original. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Message-ID: <0vuVa.8902$uu5.828@sccrnsc04> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059484732 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:18:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:18:52 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:18:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147250 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > (Still waiting for Etruscan to be deciphered; as was Claudius, and it had > been dead for a far shorter period in his time.) Is that the same Claudius as in the t.v. series - I Clavdivs-? Bob Kolker > ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1059484953 24.62.143.251 (Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:33 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147256 Brian Inglis wrote: > Every branch of science and technology creates its own jargon to > communicate more efficiently. Each jargon depends on the > languages in which fundamental concepts and ideas are > communicated and on the different paths taken during development > of a corpus of knowledge in those areas in which each language is > used. As time and thinking progresses, information is compressed > into laws, theories, hypotheses, conjectures, etc. which are > associated with the names of their primary communicators in our > culture. Without a historical corpus in a subject, and ability to > understand that corpus, how meaningful would technical articles > be which refer to basic knowledge encoded as combinations of > people's names, and other information referred to using words > which have common meanings, possibly in a different language, but > a specialized meaning in one area of jargon? In short, the written tradition rests squarely on the oral tradition, aka cultural context. If the context of every written article were unpacked and made explicit their length would be multiplied by at least a thousand. Bob Kolker ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> From: Charlton Wilbur Message-ID: <87k7a1xp6w.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> Lines: 49 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:41:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.203.144.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1059496878 151.203.144.154 (Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:41:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:41:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147289 Brian Inglis writes: > Every branch of science and technology creates its own jargon to > communicate more efficiently. Each jargon depends on the languages > in which fundamental concepts and ideas are communicated and on the > different paths taken during development of a corpus of knowledge in > those areas in which each language is used. [...] Without a > historical corpus in a subject, and ability to understand that > corpus, how meaningful would technical articles be which refer to > basic knowledge encoded as combinations of people's names, and other > information referred to using words which have common meanings, > possibly in a different language, but a specialized meaning in one > area of jargon? And even when we're talking about *our own species*, this is the case. Take historical music theory, as a for-instance. Ignore for a moment questions of taste and quality; the project is figuring out how to recreate the sound from the notation. With the vast majority of music written before the advent of recording, we're working with a *best guess* -- because "everybody knew" how violins or singers were supposed to sound, or the proper amount of tempo variation to use when playing Bach or Chopin. It gets even worse when you start talking about music before 1500; with the advent of keyboard instruments, the frame of reference for talking about music shifted from the voice to the keyboard. As a result, notation *changed* -- composers in the 15th century could write an F, and expect that the performers would alter it to an F# because the context required it. The performers, likewise, would see a written F and have no qualms about altering it to an F# based on the context. And this would not be seen as incompetence on the part of composer or publisher, or as hubris on the part of the performers; it was so commonplace, as a matter of fact, that remarkably few people saw fit to comment on it. In short, this is an enormous corpus of information, with volumes of material (scores) and metamaterial (treatises and commentaries) available, and a continuous oral tradition that goes back over a thousand years, and we can't say to a certainty what 500-year-old music should sound like. I despair of any communication with people in the 25th century, let alone the 50th. Charlton ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:01:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3F26B826.E863C697@alcyone.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:08:38 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F256EC1.EACCCFA@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-UoIKXBJknO9MiGsXRpzKpHwA/sq9TXsCvjKXVAoTfgEIIT6bjMAzDvTGIBIjK9adFEKPs3uc+XHp4v4!tEPw9LHoaX+1esEx67UJna7WmzACZ3dwZwAXY5B0nBBzbRfGig758lYy9ZIKLCS3i6dwT60cFyMw!zyKM X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147247 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Sigh! Think about what we're talking about. Analogy time: A cake > recipe will not work at sea level if it's been developed and > documented at Jupiter level. If you don't know about the pressure > of Jupiter, there may be some trouble in decoding that recipe. > First you have to identify the fact that it is a recipe. Physics and chemistry aren't any different "at Jupiter level." That's the point. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. \__/ Oscar Wilde ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Date: 29 Jul 2003 20:25:09 GMT Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> <3F25A55C.C1ED45B0@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.255.245 X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1059510309 22395689 159.134.255.245 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!159.134.255.245!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147255 On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 23:17:10 GMT, Robert J. Kolker wrote: > > > Erik Max Francis wrote: >> >> We have deciphered a great number of dead languages from a hell of a lot >> less than an encyclopedia. > > Were they dead or did they have a living link? > > Can you enumerate some of these "dead" languages (skip Egyptian > hieroglyph and hieratic which we know from the Rosetta Stone). > > Also keep in mind that Latin has been spoken and written from the time > of the Roman Empire (thank the R.C. for that), Hebrew and Aramaic have > been spoken at various places since the time of Joshuah so strictly > speaking they always have been live languages. A language very close to hebrew would have been used in present-day Syria from 1500ce at least. [1] Aramaic would have been a meta-language through most of its history, like Latin, used to communicate among those who used a differing language for everyday use. I suppose that Aramaic would be more like a HL computer language, the users brains would have translated it into their usual language to use the message. (That would be the non-Aramaic native speakers). Like Latin in Christian Europe. Or Arabic in Pakistan and Indonesia and Iran. [Rad-Shamra finds] -- greymaus downloading Captain Kirk. .................. ERROR NO CARRIER ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:08:27 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust58.tnt1.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059513416 news.dial.pipex.com 15038 62.188.100.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147287 In article <3F2481BC.154F30C8@alcyone.com>, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Tennant Stuart wrote: >> In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >>> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). >> Indeed? Please prove that assertion. > It's certainly not known without a doubt that it's true, but a great > deal of modern astronomy and cosmology relies on it being true. The > general name for the idea is the mediocrity principle. Quite so, Eric. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:10:01 BST Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust58.tnt1.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059513418 news.dial.pipex.com 15038 62.188.100.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147288 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Tennant Stuart wrote: >>>> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. >>> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >>> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). >> Indeed? Please prove that assertion. > Technically, black holes, big bang +a few seconds, chemistry done > at different elevations and the unknowns of less Planck length. You're being ridiculous. We're not discussing civilisations to be found inside black holes, a few seconds after the big bang, or less than the Planck length. As for different elevations, there may be certain varying effects, but this is all still within the same underlying chemistry. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 30 Jul 03 10:18:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYCFsaT29/qtPcr5tLgZe3IE5YfpNxeY8QoUquQoVjwZaFF8AYUGljK X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Jul 2003 11:19:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-248 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147321 In article , Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article , >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>>>> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > >>>> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >>>> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). > >>> Indeed? Please prove that assertion. > >> Technically, black holes, big bang +a few seconds, chemistry done >> at different elevations and the unknowns of less Planck length. > >You're being ridiculous. Of course. It's becoming a ridiculous thread. > >We're not discussing civilisations to be found inside black holes, >a few seconds after the big bang, or less than the Planck length. > >As for different elevations, there may be certain varying effects, >but this is all still within the same underlying chemistry. You are confusing basic scientific principles with writings about them. When experiments didn't "work out", fudge factors were including in formulas and equations to get them to work. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1059520354 12.237.120.43 (Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:12:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:12:34 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:12:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147385 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > In article > ljelmore@comcast.net "Larry Elmore" writes: > > >>Erik Max Francis wrote: >> >>>We have deciphered a great number of dead languages from a hell of a lot >>>less than an encyclopedia. >> >>Name one where we didn't have bi- or tri-lingual copies of writings, >>with one version in a language and script that we already understood. > > Linear B? Mind you, that was an inspired bit of guesswork by Ventris & > Chadwick. I worded that carelessly. Mycenaen Greek is a "dead" language, but it wasn't exactly an unknown language since it was ancestral to Homeric Greek. In time span, the difference is about the same as between Middle English and Modern English. Figuring out that the script encoded (in a highly abbreviated way) an archaic form of Greek was a brilliant piece of work. Had it not been a language we know, however, we'd still be scratching our heads. > Not that I'm in any way attempting to support the rather sweeping > statement that Erik made. > > (Still waiting for Etruscan to be deciphered; as was Claudius, and it had > been dead for a far shorter period in his time.) IIRC, Ventris (and others) had spent years trying to relate Linear B to Etruscan before he gave up on that pet theory. The problem we face with Etruscan is almost the opposite of the problem posed by Linear B. With Etruscan, we know their alphabet, we know many words (if mostly personal and place names), but we know next to nothing about the language or its grammar, except that it's definitely not Indo-European. --Larry ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4TCVa.9935$It4.5242@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1059519040 12.237.120.43 (Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:50:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:50:40 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:15:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147383 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > In article > ljelmore@comcast.net "Larry Elmore" writes: > > >>Erik Max Francis wrote: >> >>>We have deciphered a great number of dead languages from a hell of a lot >>>less than an encyclopedia. >> >>Name one where we didn't have bi- or tri-lingual copies of writings, >>with one version in a language and script that we already understood. > > Linear B? Mind you, that was an inspired bit of guesswork by Ventris & > Chadwick. I worded that carelessly. Mycenaen Greek is a "dead" language, but it wasn't exactly an unknown language since it was ancestral to Homeric Greek. In time span, the difference is about the same as between Middle English and Modern English. Figuring out that the script encoded (in a highly abbreviated way) an archaic form of Greek was a brilliant piece of work. Had it not been a language we know, however, we'd still be scratching our heads. > Not that I'm in any way attempting to support the rather sweeping > statement that Erik made. > > (Still waiting for Etruscan to be deciphered; as was Claudius, and it had > been dead for a far shorter period in his time.) IIRC, Ventris (and others) had spent years trying to relate Linear B to Etruscan before he gave up on that pet theory. The problem we face with Etruscan is almost the opposite of the problem posed by Linear B. With Etruscan, we know their alphabet, we know many words (if mostly personal and place names), but we know next to nothing about the language or its grammar, except that it definitely not Indo-European. --Larry ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: grapeape@aol.comjunk (GrapeApe) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 30 Jul 2003 05:12:02 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030730011202.24645.00001156@mb-m28.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147333 << > Can you enumerate some of these "dead" languages (skip Egyptian > hieroglyph and hieratic which we know from the Rosetta Stone). >>

The Incan or Aztec languages are without any cultural precedent to the old world apparently, and the glyphs have to be translated from scratch, fwiw. A great deal of it, they are admittedly clueless about. Its the sort of thing the lay person might read about in Scientific American, on occasion. ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:55:30 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 36 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <23c70aee.0307220623.89f064f@posting.google.com> <3F1D8401.41F5A3F@alcyone.com> <3F1DEAC5.513D006C@alcyone.com> <_R_Ua.162342$ye4.109272@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: p508726d1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059555332 13339 80.135.38.209 (30 Jul 2003 08:55:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:55:32 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p508726D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147349 On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, Paul wrote: > If the disks haven't been compromised, OTP is so secure there's no real > problem circumstances be as useful as the contents? - maybe leave that till > later...>. There's a few "real" problems with using a pure OTP. (besides the obvious key-management ones) One of the more well-known ones is that if you know the plaintext of a transmission, and have opportunity to change the ciphertext, you can change what the receiver reads, and remain undetected. Typical scenario would be if you leaked a "confidential" message to a embassy, in the hope that it would be transmitted unmodified with OTP to the homeland. If you could then intercept and change the ciphertext, you could make it appear that the embassy sent any message of up to that length. Method: Known plaintext xor intercepted ciphertext = OTP. Wanted plaintext xor OTP = valid-looking ciphertext. To guard against this possibility, it is advisable to have some sort of authenthication on a message before OTP-encrypting it. Some kind of digital signature will do fine. Never use OTP to send "Yes". An attacker could guess it, and change it to, for example "No". Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: Thomas Womack Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 30 Jul 2003 10:53:26 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 13 Message-ID: <2KA*LvEYp@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <_R_Ua.162342$ye4.109272@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147367 In article , wrote: >One of the more well-known ones is that if you know the plaintext of a >transmission, and have opportunity to change the ciphertext, you can >change what the receiver reads, and remain undetected. This is why the OTPs used in WW2, at least, were used as a second stage after enciphering the message with some more generic cipher; nowadays, I imagine you read 128 bits from the OTP, use them to key AES, encrypt one 128-bit word of message with AES, and transmit that. Tom ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:24:08 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 35 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <_R_Ua.162342$ye4.109272@sccrnsc01> <2KA*LvEYp@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p508726d1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1059564248 20621 80.135.38.209 (30 Jul 2003 11:24:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:24:08 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <2KA*LvEYp@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p508726D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147348 On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Thomas Womack wrote: > This is why the OTPs used in WW2, at least, were used as a second > stage after enciphering the message with some more generic cipher; > nowadays, I imagine you read 128 bits from the OTP, use them to key > AES, encrypt one 128-bit word of message with AES, and transmit that. Maybe. But I believe a better aproach is to first encrypt your entire message with a conventional cipher, say AES. Using bits from the OTP as key is fine, but maybe besser even to use a memorized key. Then thereafter use the OTP in the normal way, with the ciphertext from the preceeding step as the input. This has the advantage of not compromising the proven mathemathical security of a OTP. It also has the advantage that you can use conventional cryptographic techniques, like digital signatures or public-key cryptosystems for the "internal" crypto. Thus you can for example construct a system that has RSA(for the session key)+AES security against an attacker that DOES know the OTP, and unconditional security against an attacker that does not know the OTP. If you memorize your key (or more practically: if the key is a secure hash of a phrase you've memorised) then you have also guarded against the possibility that an attacker could steal the OTP, and masquerade as you towards the holder of the other OTP. Crypto is hard. One needs only to read sci.crypt for a month to see over and over again smart people who think they've designed the killer-crypto, only to be taken completely apart in the first 30 minutes after posting it to the newsgroup. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:17:59 BST Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust191.tnt4.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059590515 news.dial.pipex.com 18496 62.188.110.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147374 In article <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:40:08 BST in alt.folklore.computers, > Tennant Stuart wrote: >>>> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. >>> Read (a translation of) a medieval or earlier science book >>> written in Greek or Latin for a different cultural view on >>> explaining a common subject. Now imagine all you had was the >>> original text (no diagrams or equations) and there was no common >>> culture or language to help with the translation: would you even >>> be able to identify the subject of the book as science? >> I'm not talking about medieval or earlier civilisations. >> I'm talking about future generations looking back at us, or >> we examining some extinct alien culture of about our level. > You don't think we might look like archaic, quaint, and long-winded > writers to future generations? You don't think an extinct alien culture > might be quaint, weird, and, well, alien, to the point where it might be > difficult to decide just what it's culture was based on? Come off it, that's a totally irrelevant load of guff. It's not a question of being quaint, but of having physics & chemistry. We have physics & chemistry, medieval or earlier civilisations did not. A future civilisation would have physics & chemistry. Extraterrestrial aliens will have physics & chemistry. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 31 Jul 03 11:53:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 74 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYjUl6y3HfxKNQT0ANIuS1qD02VhBBdC4xWgsEIUX98RT453wyJSPPE X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Jul 2003 12:55:44 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-80 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147439 In article , Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article , >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>>>>>> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. > >>>>>> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >>>>>> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). > >>>>> Indeed? Please prove that assertion. > >>>> Technically, black holes, big bang +a few seconds, chemistry done >>>> at different elevations and the unknowns of less Planck length. > >>> You're being ridiculous. > >> Of course. It's becoming a ridiculous thread. > >I'm referring to your ridiculous lack of logic. Oh, be still my heart. You wound me. > >The fact that you are doing it deliberately just makes it worse. Some days, giving extreme examples boots thinking. This time it didn't. >>> We're not discussing civilisations to be found inside black holes, >>> a few seconds after the big bang, or less than the Planck length. > >>> As for different elevations, there may be certain varying effects, >>> but this is all still within the same underlying chemistry. > >> You are confusing basic scientific principles with writings >> about them. When experiments didn't "work out", fudge factors >> were including in formulas and equations to get them to work. > >No, the point is that when a civilisation advances to the point of >achieving physics & chemistry, those principles are universal, and >provide a starting point to decipher their writings. For example, >there is only one set of elements, it's culturally independent. Are there really only "one set of elements"? You are assuming that all periodic tables list all elements. That's just patent nonsense. In 1500, there wasn't a periodic table. In B.C. there were four elements, none identified by a number. A culture that lives in high pressure may not have science that makes assumptions that involve zero or negative pressures. A culture whose mathematical tools do not include calculus, may not have advanced science or technology. It certainly wouldn't be able to decypher any calculations about QM or QED. A culture whose complete store of knowledge is in electronic bits will not be decyphered by a culture who has banned all electric study. > >Please do not reply with any more stupid red herrings. It wasn't a red herring. It was an attempt to get you to examine your assumptions. You keep assuming that any document about any piece of science is decypherable by anybody who has any level of science background. An 18th century person would not understand COBOL.MAC listing. An earlier person would probably get burnt at the stake for doing witchcraft. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:10:56 BST Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 50 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust57.tnt5.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059610773 news.dial.pipex.com 11378 62.188.112.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147492 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Tennant Stuart wrote: >>>>>> One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. >>>>> You are making the assumption that physics and chemistry >>>>> are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). >>>> Indeed? Please prove that assertion. >>> Technically, black holes, big bang +a few seconds, chemistry done >>> at different elevations and the unknowns of less Planck length. >> You're being ridiculous. > Of course. It's becoming a ridiculous thread. I'm referring to your ridiculous lack of logic. The fact that you are doing it deliberately just makes it worse. >> We're not discussing civilisations to be found inside black holes, >> a few seconds after the big bang, or less than the Planck length. >> As for different elevations, there may be certain varying effects, >> but this is all still within the same underlying chemistry. > You are confusing basic scientific principles with writings > about them. When experiments didn't "work out", fudge factors > were including in formulas and equations to get them to work. No, the point is that when a civilisation advances to the point of achieving physics & chemistry, those principles are universal, and provide a starting point to decipher their writings. For example, there is only one set of elements, it's culturally independent. Please do not reply with any more stupid red herrings. Tennant Stuart -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030714 Debian/1.4-2 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <20030730011202.24645.00001156@mb-m28.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <20030730011202.24645.00001156@mb-m28.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1059607001 12.237.120.43 (Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:16:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:16:41 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:16:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147536 GrapeApe wrote: > << > Can you enumerate some of these "dead" languages (skip Egyptian > >>hieroglyph and hieratic which we know from the Rosetta Stone). >>

> > > > The Incan or Aztec languages are without any cultural precedent to the old > world apparently, and the glyphs have to be translated from scratch, fwiw. A > great deal of it, they are admittedly clueless about. > > Its the sort of thing the lay person might read about in Scientific American, > on occasion. The Incans didn't have a written language. Nahuatl (Aztec) and Mayan are still the native languages of millions of people. That is, they're not "dead." --Larry ###### From: "Deathwalker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> <87k7a1xp6w.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 53 Organization: nonwhatsoever X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:11:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.35.121.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1059649869 82.35.121.20 (Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:11:09 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:11:09 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147515 -- Ian Lincoln I am dyslexia of borg your ass will be laminated "Charlton Wilbur" wrote in message news:87k7a1xp6w.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net... > Brian Inglis writes: > > > Every branch of science and technology creates its own jargon to > > communicate more efficiently. Each jargon depends on the languages > > in which fundamental concepts and ideas are communicated and on the > > different paths taken during development of a corpus of knowledge in > > those areas in which each language is used. [...] Without a > > historical corpus in a subject, and ability to understand that > > corpus, how meaningful would technical articles be which refer to > > basic knowledge encoded as combinations of people's names, and other > > information referred to using words which have common meanings, > > possibly in a different language, but a specialized meaning in one > > area of jargon? > > And even when we're talking about *our own species*, this is the case. > > Take historical music theory, as a for-instance. Ignore for a moment > questions of taste and quality; the project is figuring out how to > recreate the sound from the notation. With the vast majority of music > written before the advent of recording, we're working with a *best > guess* -- because "everybody knew" how violins or singers were > supposed to sound, or the proper amount of tempo variation to use when > playing Bach or Chopin. > > It gets even worse when you start talking about music before 1500; > with the advent of keyboard instruments, the frame of reference for > talking about music shifted from the voice to the keyboard. As a > result, notation *changed* -- composers in the 15th century could > write an F, and expect that the performers would alter it to an F# > because the context required it. The performers, likewise, would see > a written F and have no qualms about altering it to an F# based on the > context. And this would not be seen as incompetence on the part of > composer or publisher, or as hubris on the part of the performers; it > was so commonplace, as a matter of fact, that remarkably few people > saw fit to comment on it. > > In short, this is an enormous corpus of information, with volumes of > material (scores) and metamaterial (treatises and commentaries) > available, and a continuous oral tradition that goes back over a > thousand years, and we can't say to a certainty what 500-year-old > music should sound like. I despair of any communication with people > in the 25th century, let alone the 50th. have you read 3001? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> <87k7a1xp6w.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> From: Charlton Wilbur Message-ID: <874r12vok7.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:11:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.203.144.154 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1059657066 151.203.144.154 (Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:11:06 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:11:06 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147491 "Deathwalker" writes: > have you read 3001? No, I haven't. I stopped about halfway through _2061,_ convinced that the brain eater had finally gotten to Clarke. Charlton ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Distribution: world Message-ID: <38RK/ks/KjLP089yn@the-wire.com> References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 09:52:55 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.82 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1059666940 205.206.39.82 (Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:55:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:55:40 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147437 In article , Tennant Stuart wrote: >No, the point is that when a civilisation advances to the point of >achieving physics & chemistry, those principles are universal, and >provide a starting point to decipher their writings. For example, >there is only one set of elements, it's culturally independent. Contrariwise, there's Vernor Vinge's idea (_A Fire Upon the Deep_) of a cultural process in which societies develop culturally and technically until they reach Transcendence. Then they disappear. Nobody who hasn't transcended can tell what happened to them, but there's a feeling they may just not be operating in our space-time anymore. Physics as we know it is only a hundred years old, with recognizable precursors going back about 300. Chemistry has a coherent molecular theory going back, what? 300? Before about 500 years ago, everybody was talking Influences and Virtues. Of course, in terms of sending messages to the future, we have to express ourselves using what we have. It would be silly to express anybody else, and what we have is all we've got. Regards. Mel. ###### From: Ross Presser Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 31 Jul 2003 16:38:19 GMT Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <826.335T1881T6534926@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F20991E.5E285C3@alcyone.com> <4X2Ua.123841$OZ2.24944@rwcrnsc54> <3F20BC55.46053724@alcyone.com> <3F217E76.42CB9EDA@alcyone.com> <3F2439B0.C3961493@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-812.newsdawg.com User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 X-Face: 8O7ak(Jpl.P<-*gF@wtxQU$Urow``!*}\CL*v'V)Q|;hPih4$:sn0EV%{}0gYp/lbk5-9|]8dAJk.z$nfpI\kk4xwZ^TgfAy<2p@e}Ez4b]jqtr!AZq7-TeefLvdl|t)ZXB,b+!]Y\[LWoqx3J} Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147430 Erik Max Francis wrote in news:3F2439B0.C3961493 @alcyone.com: > Larry Elmore wrote: > >> But they were almost certainly not writing to be understood by someone >> who doesn't know their script, language, culture or history. They're >> not >> deliberately trying to obfuscate, but except for children's tutorials, >> people almost always assume a truly vast amount of background >> knowledge >> is already known by the intended audience. > > "They"? We're talking about the general case of the possibility of > decoding messages based on their contents only, not particular messages > from the past. > The assumption is that you can identify a thing AS a message. When you tried to decode the binary string way up in this thread, you already knew several things as a head start: from your own previous knowledge as well as popular culture (like "Contact") when you see a binary stream you automatically think "this is a message". it was posted as part of a Usenet discussion, hence probably related to the thread. from the thread context, it was probably meant to make a point. Then you started applying various techniques to it, found some regularity, and went from there. But in the far future, a savage finds a CD-R marked "trip to Grand Canyon". Even if he CAN decipher the written text, how is he going to know that it means there is a movie file saved on it? Fine, that's a poor example; the CD-R with a movie of a trip is not meant as a message to the savage, or to anyone really. But my point is that the recipient of the message may have no way to realize it even is a message, and not just a shiny thing. Particularly if he's not expecting any messages .... -- Ross Presser -- rpresser AT imtek DOT com "... VB is essentially the modern equivalent of vulgar Latin in 13th Centurary Europe. Understand it, and you can travel to places you never heard of and still understand some people." -- Alex K. Angelopoulos ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:03:53 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-7P4ZRAB/7iYgDL41cxgSSSvAOV4P+SsbWUpgPmXa0QC12f0yzCQYkQW/z0P+ioJQ6I7o27EINooXy9s!IahF2h8Kd3EB6S3ItulYqDPS29krjS2SxAT3XmEKdvo/qAu4RoMNzKk4KCnfwEKcz0XqEOCzepVZ!arzx X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147412 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > A culture that lives in high pressure may not have science that > makes assumptions that involve zero or negative pressures. A > culture whose mathematical tools do not include calculus, may > not have advanced science or technology. It certainly > wouldn't be able to decypher any calculations about QM or QED. > A culture whose complete store of knowledge is in electronic > bits will not be decyphered by a culture who has banned > all electric study. It is quite possible to come up with scenarios where an alien civilization would just be too alien to communicate with us. By definition, you'd never be able to talk to such an alien, so pointing them out is moot. Look, you made a claim that physics and chemistry weren't the same "everywhere" (with the obvious implication being that "everywhere" meant everywhere you might find an alien intelligence capable of communication). That claim was wrong; move on. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Of all the perversions, chastity is the strangest. \__/ Anatole France ###### Message-ID: <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1059682094 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:08:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:08:14 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:08:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147511 Erik Max Francis wrote: > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > A culture that lives in high pressure may not have science that > > makes assumptions that involve zero or negative pressures. A > > culture whose mathematical tools do not include calculus, may > > not have advanced science or technology. It certainly > > wouldn't be able to decypher any calculations about QM or QED. > > A culture whose complete store of knowledge is in electronic > > bits will not be decyphered by a culture who has banned > > all electric study. > > It is quite possible to come up with scenarios where an alien > civilization would just be too alien to communicate with us. By > definition, you'd never be able to talk to such an alien, so pointing > them out is moot. > > Look, you made a claim that physics and chemistry weren't the same > "everywhere" (with the obvious implication being that "everywhere" meant > everywhere you might find an alien intelligence capable of > communication). That claim was wrong; move on. > That claim is *not* wrong. Just because our "local reality" has the elements and physical laws as it does...this does *not* preclude different laws of physics say, in the middle of a "black hole". If you believe that our reality is all there is, IMHO you are thinking way too small... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Robert J. Kolker" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.143.251 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1059682841 24.62.143.251 (Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:20:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:20:41 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:20:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147423 Charles Richmond wrote: > That claim is *not* wrong. Just because our "local reality" has > the elements and physical laws as it does...this does *not* > preclude different laws of physics say, in the middle of a > "black hole". If you believe that our reality is all there is, > IMHO you are thinking way too small... We will not be communicating with any beings who live in a black hole. It would be a rather one-sided conversation. Bob Kolker ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:58:56 -0500 Message-ID: <3F298475.8EF40568@alcyone.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:04:53 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-HSMo0D14xmOHzifsK6577UCciAgVjBK9qp7IPHey7arJQIq4RJQ2tX0K8jW+DIYsnGX54y/R2n+Z+ry!BR4MUvrSZwBz94iRdwZzp7PbzFC7t4PjcdhI4m5KKXtJKRx0rtPIbKmLwha9Mr8Rn7bJrvWCb/64!mxz5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!easynews.net!newsfeed3.easynews.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147411 Charles Richmond wrote: > That claim is *not* wrong. Just because our "local reality" has > the elements and physical laws as it does...this does *not* > preclude different laws of physics say, in the middle of a > "black hole". If you believe that our reality is all there is, > IMHO you are thinking way too small... I explicitly disclaimed my comment; read it again. Are you thinking it's likely that you're going to find the writings of an alien civilization _in the middle of a black hole_? -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ The only completely consistent people are the dead. \__/ Aldous Huxley ###### From: "Riboflavin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:01:44 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> <3F298475.8EF40568@alcyone.com> Reply-To: "Riboflavin" NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.57.bd.91 X-Server-Date: 31 Jul 2003 22:03:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147486 "Erik Max Francis" wrote in message > I explicitly disclaimed my comment; read it again. Are you thinking > it's likely that you're going to find the writings of an alien > civilization _in the middle of a black hole_? > Well, if you think a Big Crunch theory is right and are willing to wait for a while... -- Kevin Allegood ribo@mindspring.com "Personally, I hold by the Clarke - Sturgeon law: 90% of any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from crap." - Larry Lennhoff ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <46kjiv8efrca1jfsu20g0pkoii8pvc319n@4ax.com> References: <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> <3F298475.8EF40568@alcyone.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:32:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1059705146 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:32:26 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:32:26 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147523 On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:04:53 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Erik Max Francis wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: > >> That claim is *not* wrong. Just because our "local reality" has >> the elements and physical laws as it does...this does *not* >> preclude different laws of physics say, in the middle of a >> "black hole". If you believe that our reality is all there is, >> IMHO you are thinking way too small... > >I explicitly disclaimed my comment; read it again. Are you thinking >it's likely that you're going to find the writings of an alien >civilization _in the middle of a black hole_? Will you ever reach the middle of the black hole? Doesn't time dilatation imply that it takes longer as you accelerate faster towards the event horizon? Or have I mixed up SF plots with hard science? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### Message-ID: <3F29D143.642E@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> From: "H. E. Taylor" Organization: Organization? What organization?! X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:32:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.187.72.41 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news1.mts.net 1059697951 66.187.72.41 (Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:32:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:32:31 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-in.mts.net!news1.mts.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147460 In article , Robert J. Kolker wrote: >[...] > We will not be communicating with any beings who live in a black hole. > It would be a rather one-sided conversation. > Maybe they would find a way to modulate Hawking radiation. Maybe they would find a way to move in one of the 26 dimensions, or was it 11... -het -- "Ask not what your country has done for you; Ask what your country can do to you." -crypto refugee Name your Poison: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/catastrophes.html H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/ ###### Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 06:52:59 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030801065259.2a79f6c2.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F294BF9.D6309C98@alcyone.com> <3F29927E.85AA436@ev1.net> <3F298475.8EF40568@alcyone.com> <46kjiv8efrca1jfsu20g0pkoii8pvc319n@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Aug 2003 05:45:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1488.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1059716728 willi.euronet.nl 45371 194.134.213.214:1369 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147479 On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:32:26 GMT Brian Inglis wrote: BI> Will you ever reach the middle of the black hole? That depends on your point of view. From the point of view of the faller a free fall into a black hole takes just as long as Newton says it will. From the point of view of a distant observer it takes forever. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Deathwalker" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers References: <1l0Ta.117604$H17.36088@sccrnsc02> <848civkipeeamuin2ibd6kda19ttksnlm0@4ax.com> <87k7a1xp6w.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> <874r12vok7.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 21 Organization: nonwhatsoever X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: <6qvWa.1374$5k.14190631@news-text.cableinet.net> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:10:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.35.121.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1059750658 82.35.121.20 (Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:10:58 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:10:58 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147572 -- Ian Lincoln I am dyslexia of borg your ass will be laminated "Charlton Wilbur" wrote in message news:874r12vok7.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net... > "Deathwalker" writes: > > > have you read 3001? > > No, I haven't. I stopped about halfway through _2061,_ convinced that > the brain eater had finally gotten to Clarke. well the guy who got knocked into space in 2001 gets found in 3001 and thawed out (he was several million miles from earth by this time other side of the solar system or even further. He has a great deal of trouble being understood and understanding others. Ends up doing a great deal historical corrections for them. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 02 Aug 03 11:27:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZBlQw7v3XZWInuqhbJRM3f9ziJCPtIKaJPExdDo5hYbi7yQYoJPTmR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Aug 2003 12:29:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!diablo.voicenet.com!199.184.165.233.MISMATCH!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-152 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147591 In article , Tennant Stuart wrote: > >Just as a matter of interest, which newsgroup are people here replying from? > > 1) rec.arts.sf.science > > 2) alt.books.larry-niven > > 3) alt.folklore.computers This one. The real newsgroup. ;-) > > >Tennant Stuart (from alt.books.larry-niven) That still doesn't explain it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:01:43 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1059763352snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> <0vuVa.8902$uu5.828@sccrnsc04> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1059764503 26675 10.0.0.1 (1 Aug 2003 19:01:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:01:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19if9q-0006w6-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:01:42 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147616 In article <0vuVa.8902$uu5.828@sccrnsc04> bobkolker@comcast.net "Robert J. Kolker" writes: > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > > (Still waiting for Etruscan to be deciphered; as was Claudius, and it had > > been dead for a far shorter period in his time.) > > Is that the same Claudius as in the t.v. series - I Clavdivs-? Errm, yes, of course. (Although it was an excellent book by Robert Graves some decades before the TV series was made; the latter was actually based upon Graves' _two_ books, "I, Claudius" and "Claudius the God".) Claudius was actually a great scholar (in a dilletante-like fashion). -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:01:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1059763599snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1059764504 26684 10.0.0.1 (1 Aug 2003 19:01:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:01:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19if9r-0006w6-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:01:43 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147617 In article ljelmore@comcast.net "Larry Elmore" writes: > The problem we face with Etruscan is almost the opposite of the problem > posed by Linear B. With Etruscan, we know their alphabet, we know many > words (if mostly personal and place names), but we know next to nothing > about the language or its grammar, except that it's definitely not > Indo-European. Hmm, thinking of a language spoken in Europe that is not Indo-European, has anyone tried to see if there are any parallels with Basque? -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### From: schillin@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 1 Aug 2003 12:42:07 -0700 Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 28 Sender: nntp@spock.usc.edu Message-ID: References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> <1059763599snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: spock.usc.edu X-Trace: usc.edu 1059766929 25785 128.125.9.30 (1 Aug 2003 19:42:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@usc.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Aug 2003 19:42:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!usc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147582 bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >In article > ljelmore@comcast.net "Larry Elmore" writes: >> The problem we face with Etruscan is almost the opposite of the problem >> posed by Linear B. With Etruscan, we know their alphabet, we know many >> words (if mostly personal and place names), but we know next to nothing >> about the language or its grammar, except that it's definitely not >> Indo-European. >Hmm, thinking of a language spoken in Europe that is not Indo-European, >has anyone tried to see if there are any parallels with Basque? Tried and failed, yes. Basque and Etruscan both stand as isolates, languages without known parallels, despite extensive study by the linguistic community. -- *John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, * *Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" * *Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition * *White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute * *schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" * *661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition * ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:02:36 BST Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust183.tnt5.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059782849 news.dial.pipex.com 11375 62.188.112.183 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147611 Just as a matter of interest, which newsgroup are people here replying from? 1) rec.arts.sf.science 2) alt.books.larry-niven 3) alt.folklore.computers Tennant Stuart (from alt.books.larry-niven) -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: howard@brazee.net Reply-To: howard@brazee.net References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> <0vuVa.8902$uu5.828@sccrnsc04> X-Newsreader: News Rover 8.2.2 (http://www.NewsRover.com) Lines: 11 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 02:17:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.134.182.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1059790636 66.134.182.27 (Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:17:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:17:16 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147589 On 29-Jul-2003, "Robert J. Kolker" wrote: > > (Still waiting for Etruscan to be deciphered; as was Claudius, and it > > had > > been dead for a far shorter period in his time.) > > Is that the same Claudius as in the t.v. series - I Clavdivs-? Yes. Great series, great books. (Graves wrote I Claudius & Claudius the God) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 04 Aug 03 11:01:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVadyivgduNutk1HgMlPnJQEqdoUYYuqaDBgR/AKL+B0qoLcaBTR8bij X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 2003 12:03:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-216 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147747 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:16:04 BST in alt.folklore.computers, >Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>> In article , >>> Tennant Stuart wrote: >> >>>> As a matter of interest, which newsgroup are people here replying from? >> >>>> 1) rec.arts.sf.science >> >>>> 2) alt.books.larry-niven >> >>>> 3) alt.folklore.computers >> >>> This one. The real newsgroup. ;-) >> >>It comes as no surprise to me that you don't give a sensible answer. > >Think about it -- the other two are fiction! And one of them is Niven who has declined in quality. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:16:04 BST Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust130.tnt4.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1059959811 news.dial.pipex.com 15035 62.188.110.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147826 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > Tennant Stuart wrote: >> As a matter of interest, which newsgroup are people here replying from? >> 1) rec.arts.sf.science >> 2) alt.books.larry-niven >> 3) alt.folklore.computers > This one. The real newsgroup. ;-) It comes as no surprise to me that you don't give a sensible answer. Tennant -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:10:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1059973801 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:10:01 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:10:01 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:147705 On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:16:04 BST in alt.folklore.computers, Tennant Stuart wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article , >> Tennant Stuart wrote: > >>> As a matter of interest, which newsgroup are people here replying from? > >>> 1) rec.arts.sf.science > >>> 2) alt.books.larry-niven > >>> 3) alt.folklore.computers > >> This one. The real newsgroup. ;-) > >It comes as no surprise to me that you don't give a sensible answer. Think about it -- the other two are fiction! Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:40:54 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <1060382213snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1060468854 27630 10.0.0.1 (9 Aug 2003 22:40:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:40:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19lcOL-0007BV-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Sat, 09 Aug 2003 22:40:53 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148306 In article tennant@argonet.co.uk "Tennant Stuart" writes: > In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > In article , > > Tennant Stuart wrote: > > >> As a matter of interest, which newsgroup are people here replying from? > [snip] > > This one. The real newsgroup. ;-) > > It comes as no surprise to me that you don't give a sensible answer. On the contrary, BAH gave a preeminently sensible answer that anyone with the wit to use groups.google.com could have perceived. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:32:58 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <1059763599snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1060698778 33254 146.186.61.46 (12 Aug 2003 14:32:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:32:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148360 In article , John Schilling wrote: >bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >>In article >> ljelmore@comcast.net "Larry Elmore" writes: >>> The problem we face with Etruscan is almost the opposite of the problem >>> posed by Linear B. With Etruscan, we know their alphabet, we know many >>> words (if mostly personal and place names), but we know next to nothing >>> about the language or its grammar, except that it's definitely not >>> Indo-European. >>Hmm, thinking of a language spoken in Europe that is not Indo-European, >>has anyone tried to see if there are any parallels with Basque? >Tried and failed, yes. Basque and Etruscan both stand as isolates, >languages without known parallels, despite extensive study by the >linguistic community. This is getting eerie. At the first mention of Etruscan, I was going to mention my uncle, who actually knows the language (and Egyptian, and a dozen or so others). His next project is Basque (now that he can read gaelic [scottish version]), bartly because it and Estruscan are the only such "orphans" . . . and there's an online class in it at UNLV. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:40:16 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148722 Bill Woods wrote: > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? It was cheapest. http://tbtf.com/resource/nics-non-us.html (old data) -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### From: Pascal Bourguignon Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 17 Aug 2003 01:32:39 +0200 Organization: informatimago.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: thalassa.informatimago.com (195.114.85.198) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061076761 1131546 195.114.85.198 (16 [41911]) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) 21.3.50.pjb1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news2.ip-plus.net,newsfeed2-zh.ip-plus.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!thalassa.informatimago.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148754 Anton Sherwood writes: > Bill Woods wrote: > > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? > > It was cheapest. > http://tbtf.com/resource/nics-non-us.html (old data) And being new (nu) is always good, marketing-wise. ISTR that just printing "NEW" in bright color on your product induced a boost in your sales around 15%... -- __Pascal_Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality. ###### Message-ID: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 05:44:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.83 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1061099067 12.90.167.83 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 05:44:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 05:44:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148655 Pascal Bourguignon wrote: > Anton Sherwood writes: > > Bill Woods wrote: > > > > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > > > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? > > > > It was cheapest. > > http://tbtf.com/resource/nics-non-us.html (old data) > > And being new (nu) is always good, marketing-wise. > > ISTR that just printing "NEW" in bright color on your product > induced a boost in your sales around 15%... However the actual meaning is that the package content has been reduced by 10 to 25 percent, with no change in price. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: bo.h.johan56@telia.com (Bo Johansson) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 17 Aug 2003 05:17:51 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: <820aa0b0.0308170417.3425df6e@posting.google.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.114.108.252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1061122671 17362 127.0.0.1 (17 Aug 2003 12:17:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2003 12:17:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148731 > Bill Woods wrote: > > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? Anton Sherwood answered: > It was cheapest. > http://tbtf.com/resource/nics-non-us.html (old data) And in Scandinavian languages "nu" means "now", so it is quite popular because of that. // Bo Johansson ###### Message-ID: <3F3FA595.8873A8E4@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <820aa0b0.0308170417.3425df6e@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:02:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1061136154 12.90.169.12 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:02:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:02:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148759 Bo Johansson wrote: > Anton Sherwood answered: > > Bill Woods wrote: > > > > I understand why television-related companies buy a Tuvaluan > > > domain name, but what does being *.nu get you? > > > It was cheapest. > > http://tbtf.com/resource/nics-non-us.html (old data) > > And in Scandinavian languages "nu" means "now", so it is quite > popular because of that. And, as my Jewish friends would say, "nu?". Implying 'so what'. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Message-ID: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1061145790 12.240.77.188 (Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:43:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:43:10 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:43:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148761 Approximately 8/16/03 23:34, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > On 17 Aug 2003 01:32:39 +0200 > Pascal Bourguignon wrote: > > PB> And being new (nu) is always good, marketing-wise. > PB> > PB> ISTR that just printing "NEW" in bright color on your product induced > PB> a boost in your sales around 15%... > > Yep and printing "Original" on it has a similar effect - some > marketdroids have been seen shooting for 30% with "NEW - Original". Some > abandone the extras and just use buzzwords in the product name - it > once took me a little while to parse the phrase "always ultra normal" > into the make/model/size designation it represents. > Am surprised no company in the computer business has ever tried the Coke marketing tactic. When sales drop off on your tried and reliable product, replace it with a piece of crap [*that* part has obviously been done well] and hope for public hue and cry. At which point you "give in to customer demand" and return the "Classic" product to the marketplace. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:17:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3F3FEF94.FEB35357@alcyone.com> Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:11:48 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-P14SG72nu9wiPFEyth0+gLouvQJgFI7JxdvemBGZo011eVm9ojO+yGXBhVdBYfYVfXoPeNwTdNMe+aB!5JSWbTYKQHix7Tw6N2COpPLAHcJlQBsMh1eXMlwSvPXkwDGWO9FVR/xxwwrU9whLngS6bKoXr901!6sWt X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-feed.deine.net!deine.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148762 Lon Stowell wrote: > Am surprised no company in the computer business has ever tried > the Coke marketing tactic. When sales drop off on your tried and > reliable product, replace it with a piece of crap [*that* part > has obviously been done well] and hope for public hue and cry. > At which point you "give in to customer demand" and return the > "Classic" product to the marketplace. Considering that this was one of the biggest fiascos in consumer products, it's hardly likely this was a big strategy to stave off a market share slump. If anything it cost them market share. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. \__/ Sigmund Freud ###### From: "Ash Wyllie" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 17 Aug 03 23:06:33 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148813 Gently extracted from the mind of Pascal Bourguignon; >Lon Stowell writes: >> Approximately 8/16/03 23:34, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: >> >> > On 17 Aug 2003 01:32:39 +0200 >> > Pascal Bourguignon wrote: >> > >> > PB> And being new (nu) is always good, marketing-wise. >> > PB> >> > PB> ISTR that just printing "NEW" in bright color on your product >> > induced PB> a boost in your sales around 15%... >> > >> > Yep and printing "Original" on it has a similar effect - some >> > marketdroids have been seen shooting for 30% with "NEW - Original". Some >> > abandone the extras and just use buzzwords in the product name - it >> > once took me a little while to parse the phrase "always ultra normal" >> > into the make/model/size designation it represents. >> > >> >> Am surprised no company in the computer business has ever tried >> the Coke marketing tactic. When sales drop off on your tried and >> reliable product, replace it with a piece of crap [*that* part >> has obviously been done well] and hope for public hue and cry. >> At which point you "give in to customer demand" and return the >> "Classic" product to the marketplace. >Apple Computer Inc. did it with the Macintosh Classic. Didn't Commodore pull off something better by replacing the A500 with the A600? -ash for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX ###### From: "Riboflavin" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:30:29 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> Reply-To: "Riboflavin" NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.57.bd.91 X-Server-Date: 18 Aug 2003 04:30:29 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148800 "Lon Stowell" wrote in message news:21Q%a.169854 > Am surprised no company in the computer business has ever tried > the Coke marketing tactic. When sales drop off on your tried and > reliable product, replace it with a piece of crap [*that* part > has obviously been done well] and hope for public hue and cry. > At which point you "give in to customer demand" and return the > "Classic" product to the marketplace. > There's no evidence that that was Coke's plan from the beginning, everything that's available points to them wanting to make New Coke the new Coca-Cola soft drink. If that was Coke's plan, the reason no one has followed it is that it failed horrible; Coke lost a lot of market share to Pepsi during the New Coke fiasco - bringing back Coke Classic kept them from falling way behind, but they still lost a lot of market share and money, and New Coke is used today as an example of what not to do unless you want to burn money. The plan would be even worse with software, since software doesn't get consumed in use the way cola does. Your user can just keep using his old copy of Coke for Windows, he doesn't need to buy a new 2-liter of it for the weekend. If you're talking about hardware, it also doesn't get consumed - people upgrade it over the years, but offering a worse hardware product means people will either put up with what they've got or switch to a competitor's product and use it for X years until they upgrade. -- -- Kevin Allegood ribo@mindspring.com "Personally, I hold by the Clarke - Sturgeon law: 90% of any sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from crap." - Larry Lennhoff ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:48:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3F411E33.99BC9FB5@alcyone.com> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:42:59 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <3F3FEF94.FEB35357@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-zwdew5uPFfjYSu+QPFx7K87NLJmayInIJtPbbd8cz2OmSHGDOcQ7kFu21DOedTEnJnfzf0D9ldJfHMo!xkxbiL5enoVjYt9I6l4bh9L4/Qvp7XY9gnUJaO7gzJjAc+o4/YmCQtYL/qxlhFjYK3ShsHpQHI+T!Hbpk X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148832 greymaus@yahoo.com wrote: > Rumor was that its was a ploy to change over from sugar to corn-syrup > as sweetener. You guys are all missing the skeptic's greatest tool: Don't attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to stupidity. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Principles have no real force except when one is well fed. \__/ Mark Twain ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 19 Aug 03 08:34:01 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <964.361T68T5143665@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-185.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148894 In article ribo@mindspring.com (Riboflavin) writes: [New Coke fiasco] >The plan would be even worse with software, since software doesn't get >consumed in use the way cola does. Your user can just keep using his old >copy of Coke for Windows, he doesn't need to buy a new 2-liter of it for >the weekend. So far. Microsoft is working hard to change that. >If you're talking about hardware, it also doesn't get consumed - >people upgrade it over the years, but offering a worse hardware product >means people will either put up with what they've got or switch to a >competitor's product and use it for X years until they upgrade. Not if the marketroids are doing their job. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 19 Aug 03 08:47:29 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-187.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148899 In article <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com (CBFalconer) writes: > Pascal Bourguignon wrote: > >> ISTR that just printing "NEW" in bright color on your product >> induced a boost in your sales around 15%... > > However the actual meaning is that the package content has been > reduced by 10 to 25 percent, with no change in price. I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the product. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:46:27 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Aug 2003 19:51:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0738.nas4-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061322674 maya.euronet.nl 134 62.234.222.230:2732 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148909 On 19 Aug 03 08:47:29 -0800 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: CG> I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the CG> product. Hmm, and ORIGINAL ? How about IMPROVED ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 20 Aug 03 09:36:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbfaoJ2vZYzhICgmSDgeOdRQCuRJYMV8RfSG8HVZpDie2RzdrKyas7e X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Aug 2003 10:41:47 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-100 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148922 In article <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On 19 Aug 03 08:47:29 -0800 >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >CG> I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the >CG> product. > > Hmm, and ORIGINAL ? How about IMPROVED ? I weep every time I see the word IMPROVED. The last time was when P&G decided to do something with Joy (dish washing liquid). I'm still trying to find a good substitute that had all the feature of the old formula. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:18:37 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 73 Message-ID: References: <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1061367304 17640 193.71.197.12 (20 Aug 2003 08:15:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:15:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!news.powertech.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148936 In article <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >Erik Max Francis wrote: > >>Larry Elmore wrote: >> >>> My point, which apparently flew right over your head, was that nearly >>> all messages ever written have been intended for a particular reader >>> or >>> audience, and that while no efforts have been made to intentionally >>> make >>> it more difficult for anyone else to understand, ... >> >>Look at the Subject. Read the origin of the subthread. Keep in mind >>people have been talking about encyclopedias as examples. Rethink your >>point. > > Some encyclopedias have been written to be less than >understandable even for native-language readers. This is part of making a separate academic subject of something. A core part of academic life is building concepts, and using language to describe them is an integral part of this concept- formation, thereby forming a lot of new "sub-languages"; often mangling words from a different language to supply a base for the new vocabulary needed. This process is far advanced in medicine, biology, chemistry, physics, law, social sciences; and some more practically oriented trades like sailing and flying. This is perhaps more evident for someone who originally learned some of these subjects in another language than English, and have had to re-learn the vocabulary to express it in English. Some of these languages have names, like legalese, reflecting the fact that they build another sub-language. An encyclopedia of medical conditions written for medically trained people is also probably pretty useless for the lay person. And just watch how much fun people make of sailor's speak. They don't get the fact that all of these strange words reflect different concepts. This vocabulary was pretty common a few centuries ago, and can make it difficult for today's people to understand poetry from the sailing age. If you try to understand such a text with only an understanding of the base language you will struggle to say it mildly. On the other hand, the specialist words are pretty common among languages. (except French and Icelandic, making a point NOT to conform ) This commonality may form the basis for breaking into a new language you don't understand. A kind of "subject-matter" rosetta stone. -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:30:53 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <1059437564snz@dsl.co.uk> <0vuVa.8902$uu5.828@sccrnsc04> <1059763352snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1061367305 17640 193.71.197.12 (20 Aug 2003 08:15:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:15:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!news.powertech.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148945 In article <1059763352snz@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >In article <0vuVa.8902$uu5.828@sccrnsc04> > bobkolker@comcast.net "Robert J. Kolker" writes: > >> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >> > (Still waiting for Etruscan to be deciphered; as was Claudius, and it had >> > been dead for a far shorter period in his time.) >> >> Is that the same Claudius as in the t.v. series - I Clavdivs-? > >Errm, yes, of course. (Although it was an excellent book by Robert >Graves some decades before the TV series was made; the latter was >actually based upon Graves' _two_ books, "I, Claudius" and "Claudius the >God".) > >Claudius was actually a great scholar (in a dilletante-like fashion). A lot of the constructions for making a large state function are his personal inventions. Like a proper separation in the scope of authority for courts, and national identity papers. This became a necessity when the Roman empire had grown beyond a place where every member of the ruling class could know all the others. But it took Claudius to step out of the system and to take a fresh view. Whenever you go to small claims court you are using one of his inventions. His contemporaries never quite knew what to make of him. -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:08:49 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1061367305 17640 193.71.197.12 (20 Aug 2003 08:15:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:15:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!news.powertech.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:148950 In article , wrote: >In article , > Tennant Stuart wrote: >>In article , Brian Inglis >> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:00:02 BST in alt.folklore.computers, >>> Tennant Stuart wrote: [snip] >>>> It doesn't matter. Patterns are patterns. From there you get the words. >>> Figuring out word groups from symbol patterns is probably not too hard, >>> even common phrases from groups of words is possible. Figuring out what >>> any of the words mean, even what part of speech they are, is impossible >>> without some kind of context. To reference another thread, you >>> effectively have a bunch of coded messages. Without a codebook or a >>> crib, you can assign any meaning you like to any word, and it may make >>> sense or not, you can't really tell. >>One does have a crib, it's called physics & chemistry. But our expression of physics and chemistry is quite full of the context in which it was discovered. Just look at how slowly quantum mechanics and relativity has permeated into the old "newtonian" body of texts. Just think of correlating this with a civilization where they discovered Maxwell's equations before getting properly to grips with pressure, gravity and chemical fires aka. explotions. This civilization may not have a "newtonian" base description at all, but may have a different, quantum-inspired tool set. >>Sigh. >> >>I'm surprised that quite a few of the people in this discussion are >>so lacking in the vision or perspicacity to even credit such a task, >>like a lot of old men proclaiming that something is impossible until >>someone younger with the nerve to ignore them just does it anyway. >> >>I seem to recall a book by Arthur C. Clarke on this very situation, >>ascribing it to failures of imagination or failures of nerve, ITSBC. > >You appear to have picked up this thread in mid-drift. > >You are also making the assumption that physics and chemistry >are the same everywhere. That's not quite true :-). They may not honour the very notion of "physics" and "chemistry" to be separate subjects. Indeed, chemistry seems to be doing a fork with the event of powerful molecular biology. It seems more and more to have a "physics" part and a "biology" part. -- mrr ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 21 Aug 03 13:16:30 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <871.363T1549T7964774@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> <3F453866.CE5E1D2C@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-001.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149122 In article <3F453866.CE5E1D2C@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >IMHO I think they are trying to "improve" the world by getting >rid of us old fogies. >Just like DEC and the PDP-10...these companies need to consider >their existing customer base. They did. For several milliseconds, at least. Then they decided to get rid of us old fogies and concentrate on all those eager, pliable youngsters who are so image-conscious that they won't pester the manufacturers with embarrassing questions about quality, usability, etc. BTW I refuse to become an old fogy. I'm too busy being a curmudgeon. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 22 Aug 03 09:54:19 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYcVemQ/WPmInSNAuJHCDVcdAWJ4baSTbs2WN+FHVDu5VDJ0DyLjfwf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2003 10:59:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-177 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149069 In article , Roland Hutchinson wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net>, >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>>On 19 Aug 03 08:47:29 -0800 >>>"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >>> >>>CG> I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the >>>CG> product. >>> >>>Hmm, and ORIGINAL ? How about IMPROVED ? >> >> I weep every time I see the word IMPROVED. The last time was >> when P&G decided to do something with Joy (dish washing liquid). >> I'm still trying to find a good substitute that had all the >> feature of the old formula. > >I always suspect that "IMPROVED" actually means "cheaper to >manufacture". Sometimes. Most of the time it's an effect of so-called consumer tests. For instance, let us consider a taste test. These tests are based on which of the samples taste better. So it's a determination based on contrast. Sure the new-fangled fizz may taste better than the old one, but ABSOLUTELY NOBODY considers that it tastes different. Wrenching this back to becoming on-topic....The same is even more true about software. Users don't tend to give a shit about "better" unless it acts the same. > .. You gotta know that if the new version had cost half a >nickle more per hundred million metric tons to make it wouldn't be ever >have been permitted to come anywhere near a retailer's shelf. In the case of Joy, my premise is that they just bottled Dawn into Joy bottles. The worst thing about new Joy is that it stinks so badly I can't stand it. There is a new perfume out there that is going into everybody's cleaning product. Skunk smells better. Shit smells better...well...perhaps not dog shit that's a by-product of dog food. And I told P&G exactly that (not the dog shit exception). They apologized, then sent me coupons for products that have the same damned stink; so I shelved the coupons at the grocery store. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 22 Aug 03 09:58:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYvEOM913YOazU7XpH0nJK6OP1sZY4XTKmPFq1BQ4U4/bRUNg83Roko X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2003 11:03:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news2.ip-plus.net,newsfeed2-zh.ip-plus.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-177 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149088 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>In article <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com >>(CBFalconer) writes: > >>>> ISTR that just printing "NEW" in bright color on your product >>>> induced a boost in your sales around 15%... > >>> However the actual meaning is that the package content has been >>> reduced by 10 to 25 percent, with no change in price. > >>I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the >>product. > >Product? It means it's shipped in a brand new box :) Well, it would increase employment by one--the person who stamps the word "Improved" on the box. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Aug 03 09:48:13 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <582.364T651T5883744@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-847.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149109 In article hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign >countries . . . Those must be the ones that show the silhouette of the Statue of Liberty, which itself was made by a bunch of cheese-eating surrender monkeys. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Aug 03 09:54:58 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <724.364T2924T5946585@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> <3F453866.CE5E1D2C@ev1.net> <871.363T1549T7964774@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F458E92.E3C80AA9@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-848.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!feed-maxim.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149120 In article <3F458E92.E3C80AA9@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> BTW I refuse to become an old fogy. I'm too busy being a curmudgeon. > >That's what I respect so much about you, Mr. Gibbs. Why, just >the fact that you can *spell* "curmudgeon" is very impressive. ;-) > >I guess I have always aspired to be a curmudgeon myself. That's >probably why I like the writings of H.L. Mencken so much... He's one of my heroes too. :-) -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 22 Aug 03 09:56:45 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <829.364T2279T5965336@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> <3F458F53.6D0849D7@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-849.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!feed-maxim.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149121 In article <3F458F53.6D0849D7@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >If you *never* saw it...you should watch the movie "Crazy People". >In this movie, "truth in advertising" actually caught on for a >while. So you got things like: > >"Fly United Airlines...our planes hardly ever crash." Sounds like "Liar Liar" - another movie in the same vein that's worth seeing. >"Since A.T.&T. broke up, the telephone service is worse than it >ever was. But hey!!! You're lucky to have any damn phone at all!!!" "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the phone company." -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 23 Aug 03 09:47:00 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaCfx/maX5uAFkQqCXLOfeUPRt3EhVspRg3IseL7WwaFxcm/m8lCwqM X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 2003 10:52:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-7 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149059 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article , wrote: >>In article , >> hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>>In article <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >>>Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > >>>>I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the >>>>product. > >>>Product? It means it's shipped in a brand new box :) > >>Well, it would increase employment by one--the person who stamps >>the word "Improved" on the box. > >A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign >countries . . . No shit?!! ROTFL. What a beautiful example of irony. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:00:24 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <3F3FEF94.FEB35357@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr137.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1061420459 5472 209.100.226.137 (20 Aug 2003 23:00:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:00:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149224 On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:17:49 +0200, Morten Reistad wrote: >Old Coke contained a lot of fructosis sugars, and relatively less >saccarine ("standard" sugar). The world market in sugar has slowly but >steadily developed into a saccarine monoculture instead of a rather >diverse set of sugars by the end of WW2. I think you have an error here: >saccarine ("standard" sugar). Found on the web (first hit on google): Saccarine is the sweetener found in Sweet&Low and Tab. It's about 150 times sweeter than table sugar by weight. The FDA debated banning saccarine in the late 1980's after it found that injecting huge quantities of saccarine directly into the bladder of rats tended to increase the rate of bladder cancer. (The same amount of sugar would have killed the rat.) AFAIK, 'saccarine' is an artificial sweetener. Maybe you meant sucrose, AKA cane sugar. -- Arargh308 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:44:11 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3F445C2B.11C759FE@airmail.net> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <3F3FEF94.FEB35357@alcyone.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:53:51 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !b\qe1k-XUp)\&r,?O.1 (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149006 arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com wrote: > On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:17:49 +0200, Morten Reistad wrote: > > >Old Coke contained a lot of fructosis sugars, and relatively less > >saccarine ("standard" sugar). The world market in sugar has slowly but > >steadily developed into a saccarine monoculture instead of a rather > >diverse set of sugars by the end of WW2. > > I think you have an error here: > > Maybe you meant sucrose, AKA cane sugar. > See http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola for a good history. Unfortunately that article does not discuss which particular sugar is used. I did find this paragraph particularly interesting: Coca-Cola Corporation is the world's largest customer of natural vanilla extract. When new Coke was introduced, in 1984, the economy of Madagascar crashed, and only recovered after New Coke flopped. The reason is because New Coke uses vanillin, a less-expensive synthetic substitute, and purchases of vanilla more than halved during this period. ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:33:11 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1061482501 10150 193.71.197.12 (21 Aug 2003 16:15:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:15:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uio.no!193.75.75.20.MISMATCH!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149186 In article , wrote: >On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:17:49 +0200, Morten Reistad > wrote: > > >>Old Coke contained a lot of fructosis sugars, and relatively less >>saccarine ("standard" sugar). The world market in sugar has slowly but >>steadily developed into a saccarine monoculture instead of a rather >>diverse set of sugars by the end of WW2. > >I think you have an error here: >>saccarine ("standard" sugar). > >Found on the web (first hit on google): >Saccarine is the sweetener found in Sweet&Low and Tab. It's about 150 >times sweeter than table sugar by weight. The FDA debated banning >saccarine in the late 1980's after it found that injecting huge >quantities of saccarine directly into the bladder of rats tended to >increase the rate of bladder cancer. (The same amount of sugar would >have killed the rat.) Sorry. Sucrose it is. Also, there is no single fructosis, this is a whole class of sugars. >AFAIK, 'saccarine' is an artificial sweetener. > >Maybe you meant sucrose, AKA cane sugar. Yep. The story shows that Coca Cola did not put pressure back on their producers to make more fructosis sugars; the way car manufactureres pressure their suppliers. -- mrr ###### From: arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:04:22 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <3F3FEF94.FEB35357@alcyone.com> <3F445C2B.11C759FE@airmail.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr166.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1061460301 11072 209.100.226.166 (21 Aug 2003 10:05:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:05:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!feed1.news.be.easynet.net!newsfeed.online.be!216.170.153.135.MISMATCH!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149201 On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:44:11 -0500, Larry__Weiss wrote: >arargh308NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com wrote: >> On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:17:49 +0200, Morten Reistad wrote: >> >> >Old Coke contained a lot of fructosis sugars, and relatively less >> >saccarine ("standard" sugar). The world market in sugar has slowly but >> >steadily developed into a saccarine monoculture instead of a rather >> >diverse set of sugars by the end of WW2. >> >> I think you have an error here: >> >> Maybe you meant sucrose, AKA cane sugar. >> > >See http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola for a good history. >Unfortunately that article does not discuss which particular sugar is used. > >I did find this paragraph particularly interesting: > > Coca-Cola Corporation is the world's largest customer of > natural vanilla extract. When new Coke was introduced, in 1984, > the economy of Madagascar crashed, and only recovered after > New Coke flopped. The reason is because New Coke uses vanillin, > a less-expensive synthetic substitute, and purchases of vanilla > more than halved during this period. Actually, I found this more interesting: http://www.guerrillanews.com/cocakarma/ -- Arargh308 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:41:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061480502 46900 146.186.61.46 (21 Aug 2003 15:41:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:41:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149084 In article <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com >(CBFalconer) writes: >>> ISTR that just printing "NEW" in bright color on your product >>> induced a boost in your sales around 15%... >> However the actual meaning is that the package content has been >> reduced by 10 to 25 percent, with no change in price. >I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the >product. Product? It means it's shipped in a brand new box :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:49:54 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061480994 46900 146.186.61.46 (21 Aug 2003 15:49:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:49:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149082 In article <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>, Pascal Bourguignon wrote: >Lon Stowell writes: >> Am surprised no company in the computer business has ever tried >> the Coke marketing tactic. When sales drop off on your tried and >> reliable product, replace it with a piece of crap [*that* part >> has obviously been done well] and hope for public hue and cry. >> At which point you "give in to customer demand" and return the >> "Classic" product to the marketplace. >Apple Computer Inc. did it with the Macintosh Classic. ??? The Mac SE remained on the market after the introduction of the Classic (though I don't thingk they sold many more; the only real reason to buy one was if you needed the expansion card or two adb ports). The Classic didn't bring back anything that had been missing; it was a plunge to a new pricing low (<$1k w/o hd) at the old performance levels, while the II line got faster. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:54:28 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061481268 46900 146.186.61.46 (21 Aug 2003 15:54:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:54:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149094 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net>, >Gene Wirchenko wrote: >A core part of academic life is building concepts, and using >language to describe them is an integral part of this concept- >formation, thereby forming a lot of new "sub-languages"; often >mangling words from a different language to supply a base for the >new vocabulary needed. > >This process is far advanced in medicine, biology, chemistry, >physics, law, social sciences; and some more practically >oriented trades like sailing and flying. > >Some of these languages have names, like legalese, reflecting >the fact that they build another sub-language. Legales actually goes the other ways. It doesn't bring new things in, but clings tightly to the old vocabulary. If I use the same word that's been used for 400 years, even though it's fallen out of usage outside the law, I know what it means if it's litigated. If I use "plain english" I don't have that guarantee. Which do you want *your* attorney using? :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3F453866.CE5E1D2C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1061494053 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:27:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:27:33 GMT Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:27:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149209 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net>, > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >On 19 Aug 03 08:47:29 -0800 > >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > > > >CG> I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the > >CG> product. > > > > Hmm, and ORIGINAL ? How about IMPROVED ? > > I weep every time I see the word IMPROVED. The last time was > when P&G decided to do something with Joy (dish washing liquid). > I'm still trying to find a good substitute that had all the > feature of the old formula. > IMHO I think they are trying to "improve" the world by getting rid of us old fogies. It seems every time I find some product that I like...the companies either "improve" it, stop selling it altogether, or make it so expensive that I can *not* afford to buy it. A couple of cases in point...Frost Lime aftershave and Oral-B toothbrushes (the old style, *not* the "egonomically correct" piece of junk they sell today that won't even fit in my toothbrush travel case). Just like DEC and the PDP-10...these companies need to consider their existing customer base. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:50:53 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1061540161 21367 193.71.197.12 (22 Aug 2003 08:16:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:16:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!193.75.75.20.MISMATCH!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149197 In article , Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >>In article <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net>, >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >>A core part of academic life is building concepts, and using >>language to describe them is an integral part of this concept- >>formation, thereby forming a lot of new "sub-languages"; often >>mangling words from a different language to supply a base for the >>new vocabulary needed. >> >>This process is far advanced in medicine, biology, chemistry, >>physics, law, social sciences; and some more practically >>oriented trades like sailing and flying. > > >> >>Some of these languages have names, like legalese, reflecting >>the fact that they build another sub-language. > >Legales actually goes the other ways. It doesn't bring new things in, >but clings tightly to the old vocabulary. The legal people were among the first to build a set of definitions of words that doesn't necessarily coinside with standard english usage of the same word. This becomes very clear when the english vernacular changes, but the legalese stays the same. That much of the legalese language-concept mappings were done in the 17th to 19th centuries doesn't invalidate this description. Latin and Old English have been useful sources of many such words; like "Habeus Corpus". This is a Latin Idiom that has moved into Legal English, but has subtly changed meaning away from the idiom into a label for a legal principle. This language formation is necessary if any academic subject is to make any major headway in the world. Scholars cannot speak or write with good precision unless this is done. >If I use the same word that's been used for 400 years, even though it's >fallen out of usage outside the law, I know what it means if it's >litigated. If I use "plain english" I don't have that guarantee. > >Which do you want *your* attorney using? Legalese, in legalese contexts. Plain language in plain language contexts. You seem to misunderstand the angle. I don't polemise against these sub-languages. I merely describe them. And I note that the sub-languages stay very alike across rather major language barriers; except where someone makes a major effort to change them (France, Iceland). For that reason such sub-languages could even be a way to decipher parts of unknown languages if the language base is great enough. -- mrr ###### Message-ID: <3F458E92.E3C80AA9@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> <3F453866.CE5E1D2C@ev1.net> <871.363T1549T7964774@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1061516112 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:35:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:35:12 GMT Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:35:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149211 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3F453866.CE5E1D2C@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net > (Charles Richmond) writes: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Just like DEC and the PDP-10...these companies need to consider > > their existing customer base. > > They did. For several milliseconds, at least. Then they decided > to get rid of us old fogies and concentrate on all those eager, > pliable youngsters who are so image-conscious that they won't > pester the manufacturers with embarrassing questions about quality, > usability, etc. > > BTW I refuse to become an old fogy. I'm too busy being a curmudgeon. > That's what I respect so much about you, Mr. Gibbs. Why, just the fact that you can *spell* "curmudgeon" is very impressive. ;-) I guess I have always aspired to be a curmudgeon myself. That's probably why I like the writings of H.L. Mencken so much... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F458F53.6D0849D7@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1061516305 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:38:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:38:25 GMT Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:38:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149203 Roland Hutchinson wrote: > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > In article <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net>, > > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >>On 19 Aug 03 08:47:29 -0800 > >>"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >> > >>CG> I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the > >>CG> product. > >> > >>Hmm, and ORIGINAL ? How about IMPROVED ? > > > > I weep every time I see the word IMPROVED. The last time was > > when P&G decided to do something with Joy (dish washing liquid). > > I'm still trying to find a good substitute that had all the > > feature of the old formula. > > I always suspect that "IMPROVED" actually means "cheaper to > manufacture". You gotta know that if the new version had cost half a > nickle more per hundred million metric tons to make it wouldn't be ever > have been permitted to come anywhere near a retailer's shelf. > If you *never* saw it...you should watch the movie "Crazy People". In this movie, "truth in advertising" actually caught on for a while. So you got things like: "Fly United Airlines...our planes hardly ever crash." and "Since A.T.&T. broke up, the telephone service is worse than it ever was. But hey!!! You're lucky to have any damn phone at all!!!" -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:03:06 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030822070306.4149b394.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F2496C3.86F2BE3B@alcyone.com> <3f24b384.47054142@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2003 05:03:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0304.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061528610 maya.euronet.nl 153 62.234.209.50:2865 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news2.telebyte.nl!nntpfeed-01.ops.asmr-01.energis-idc.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149139 On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:54:28 +0000 (UTC) hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: DREH> Legales actually goes the other ways. It doesn't bring new things DREH> in, but clings tightly to the old vocabulary. DREH> DREH> If I use the same word that's been used for 400 years, even though DREH> it's fallen out of usage outside the law, I know what it means if DREH> it's litigated. If I use "plain english" I don't have that DREH> guarantee. The flip side of this is that any normal person needs professional assistance to comprehend such a document and even then unless the communication with that professional is good there can be misunderstanding. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:31:52 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061566312 46070 146.186.61.46 (22 Aug 2003 15:31:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:31:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149062 In article , wrote: >In article , > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>In article <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >>Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the >>>product. >>Product? It means it's shipped in a brand new box :) >Well, it would increase employment by one--the person who stamps >the word "Improved" on the box. A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign countries . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:36:17 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061566577 46070 146.186.61.46 (22 Aug 2003 15:36:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:36:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149083 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >In article , >Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >>>Some of these languages have names, like legalese, reflecting >>>the fact that they build another sub-language. >>Legales actually goes the other ways. It doesn't bring new things in, >>but clings tightly to the old vocabulary. >The legal people were among the first to build a set of definitions >of words that doesn't necessarily coinside with standard english usage >of the same word. This becomes very clear when the english vernacular >changes, but the legalese stays the same. >That much of the legalese language-concept mappings were done in the >17th to 19th centuries doesn't invalidate this description. Latin and >Old English have been useful sources of many such words; like "Habeus >Corpus". This is a Latin Idiom that has moved into Legal English, but >has subtly changed meaning away from the idiom into a label for a legal >principle. >This language formation is necessary if any academic subject is to make >any major headway in the world. Scholars cannot speak or write with >good precision unless this is done. Yep. And . . . >>If I use the same word that's been used for 400 years, even though it's >>fallen out of usage outside the law, I know what it means if it's >>litigated. If I use "plain english" I don't have that guarantee. >>Which do you want *your* attorney using? >Legalese, in legalese contexts. >Plain language in plain language contexts. That's what I did. The problem is that there's a "plain english for lawyers" movement out there, showing up in law schools (including legal writing instructors that don't write well in either dialect), that's tring to force the issue. >You seem to misunderstand the angle. I don't polemise against these >sub-languages. I merely describe them. And I note that the sub-languages >stay very alike across rather major language barriers; except where >someone makes a major effort to change them (France, Iceland). Oh, I see the angle. I'm just pointing out that unlike the other languages, legalese doesn't change much (though it gets things added). hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:56:46 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <20030822070306.4149b394.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061567806 50736 146.186.61.46 (22 Aug 2003 15:56:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:56:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149089 In article <20030822070306.4149b394.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:54:28 +0000 (UTC) >hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >DREH> Legales actually goes the other ways. It doesn't bring new things >DREH> in, but clings tightly to the old vocabulary. >DREH> >DREH> If I use the same word that's been used for 400 years, even though >DREH> it's fallen out of usage outside the law, I know what it means if >DREH> it's litigated. If I use "plain english" I don't have that >DREH> guarantee. > The flip side of this is that any normal person needs professional >assistance to comprehend such a document and even then unless the >communication with that professional is good there can be >misunderstanding. Depends upon the lawyer. It's possible to use proper terminology and still be legal, but you'd better stick to formal grammar rules (like I'm breaking in this sentence) at the expense of lay-readability. And when you pay for a document, you're *entitled* to that explanation :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1061583714 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:21:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:21:54 GMT Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:21:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149208 "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article , wrote: > >In article , > > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > >>In article <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid>, > >>Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > >>>I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the > >>>product. > > >>Product? It means it's shipped in a brand new box :) > > >Well, it would increase employment by one--the person who stamps > >the word "Improved" on the box. > > A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign > countries . . . > This seems like "false advertising"...I mean, if the sticker says "Made in USA"...then the damn sticker should be made in the USA!!! -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 07:01:36 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3F4757A0.1C41F299@airmail.net> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 07:09:19 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !aZlm1k-Vhca?_3/i!J. (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149001 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > >A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign > >countries . . . > > ... What a beautiful example of irony. > Sing along now: "It's a small world...." {repeat indefinitely} ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 23 Aug 03 10:36:07 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-655.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149242 In article <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > >> A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign >> countries . . . > >This seems like "false advertising"...I mean, if the sticker says >"Made in USA"...then the damn sticker should be made in the USA!!! Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: howard@brazee.net Reply-To: howard@brazee.net References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: News Rover 8.2.2 (http://www.NewsRover.com) Lines: 8 Message-ID: <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:47:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.3.55.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net 1061675264 69.3.55.10 (Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:47:44 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:47:44 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149253 On 23-Aug-2003, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that > they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? For a short amount of time. The US quickly made sure that such stickers were unacceptable, and that experiment was ended. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> In-Reply-To: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1061681331 12.240.77.188 (Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:28:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:28:51 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:28:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149254 Approximately 8/23/03 11:36, Charlie Gibbs uttered for posterity: > In article <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net > (Charles Richmond) writes: > >>"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: >> >>> A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign >>> countries . . . >> >>This seems like "false advertising"...I mean, if the sticker says >>"Made in USA"...then the damn sticker should be made in the USA!!! > > Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that > they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? Yes. And just to show how great their marketing depts were, the town of Usa in northern Kyushu Japan was given that name roughly 1050 years before the USofA Declaration of Independence. Been there since roughly the 8th century. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1061681415 12.240.77.188 (Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:30:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:30:15 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:30:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149255 Approximately 8/23/03 14:47, howard@brazee.net uttered for posterity: > On 23-Aug-2003, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >> Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that >> they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? > > For a short amount of time. The US quickly made sure that such stickers > were unacceptable, and that experiment was ended. I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states for trademark infringement, given that the town was there over a thousand years before the declaration of independence. ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers From: Joseph Hertzlinger Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> Reply-To: jhertzli@ix.netcom.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 22 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 08:28:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.32.190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1061713703 165.247.32.190 (Sun, 24 Aug 2003 04:28:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 04:28:23 EDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149276 On 17 Aug 03 23:06:33 -0500, Ash Wyllie wrote: > Gently extracted from the mind of Pascal Bourguignon; > > >>Lon Stowell writes: > >>> Am surprised no company in the computer business has ever tried >>> the Coke marketing tactic. When sales drop off on your tried and >>> reliable product, replace it with a piece of crap [*that* part >>> has obviously been done well] and hope for public hue and cry. >>> At which point you "give in to customer demand" and return the >>> "Classic" product to the marketplace. > >>Apple Computer Inc. did it with the Macintosh Classic. > > Didn't Commodore pull off something better by replacing the A500 with the A600? I'm reminded of WordPerfect 5.1+. -- http://hertzlinger.blogspot.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing From: howard@brazee.net Reply-To: howard@brazee.net References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: News Rover 8.2.2 (http://www.NewsRover.com) Lines: 13 Message-ID: <0xb2b.1976$3E.174@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:05:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.3.55.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net 1061766332 69.3.55.10 (Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:05:32 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:05:32 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149309 On 23-Aug-2003, Lon Stowell wrote: > > For a short amount of time. The US quickly made sure that such > > stickers > > were unacceptable, and that experiment was ended. > > I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states for > trademark infringement, given that the town was there over a > thousand years before the declaration of independence. It wasn't a legal case - the U.S. pressured Japan into not allowing it. Power doesn't always use legal channels. ###### From: Tennant Stuart Reply-To: Tennant Stuart Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:15:24 BST Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: NewsAgent 0.85 for RISC OS Organization: ArgoNet, but does not reflect its views Distribution: world Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust244.tnt4.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1061774985 news.dial.pipex.com 11382 62.188.110.244 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.tiscali.ch!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149340 In article , Lon Stowell wrote: > Approximately 8/23/03 14:47, howard@brazee.net uttered for posterity: >> On 23-Aug-2003, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >>> Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that >>> they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? >> For a short amount of time. The US quickly made sure that such stickers >> were unacceptable, and that experiment was ended. > I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states for > trademark infringement, given that the town was there over a > thousand years before the declaration of independence. A Hollywood legend claims that Warner Brothers, makers of "Casablanca", threatened to sue the Marx Brothers for using the word "Casablanca" in the title of "A Night In Casablanca". Groucho Marx wrote a letter to Warner Brothers in which he threatened to sue them for using the word "Brothers". "Professionally, we were brothers before they ever were." However, film critic Richard Roeper claims that the story is fake, that Warner Brothers never threatened to sue, and Groucho wrote the letter as a publicity stunt for the movie. Tennant Stuart (quoting from the IMDb) -- ____ ____ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ ____ (_ _)( ___)( \( )( \( ) /__\ ( \( )(_ _) Greetings to family )( )__) ) ( ) ( /(__)\ ) ( )( friends & neighbours (__) (____)(_)\_)(_)\_)(__)(__)(_)\_) (__) @argonet.co.uk & MCR ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:00:32 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1061827232 37268 146.186.61.46 (25 Aug 2003 16:00:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:00:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149320 In article , Lon Stowell wrote: >Approximately 8/23/03 14:47, howard@brazee.net uttered for posterity: >> On 23-Aug-2003, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >>> Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that >>> they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? >> For a short amount of time. The US quickly made sure that such stickers >> were unacceptable, and that experiment was ended. > I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states for > trademark infringement, given that the town was there over a > thousand years before the declaration of independence. Unless they were using the name in North America prior to the United States, or had filed the trademark in the U.S., they would have no claim to the trademark :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:24:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1061828691 24.71.223.147 (Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:24:51 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:24:51 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149350 On 23 Aug 03 10:36:07 -0800 in alt.folklore.computers, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net >(Charles Richmond) writes: > >>"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: >> >>> A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign >>> countries . . . >> >>This seems like "false advertising"...I mean, if the sticker says >>"Made in USA"...then the damn sticker should be made in the USA!!! > >Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that >they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? Ditto Scotland for whisky. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Jim Burns Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:25:03 -0400 Organization: Ohio State University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3F4A8CBF.C3510BE8@osu.edu> References: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: phy-dhcp-37-171.mps.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 1061850135 7140 128.146.37.171 (25 Aug 2003 22:22:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@osu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Aug 2003 22:22:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!usenet.INS.cwru.edu!nntp.service.ohio-state.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149371 "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article , > Lon Stowell wrote: > > [...] > > I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states > > for trademark infringement, given that the town was there > > over a thousand years before the declaration of independence. > > Unless they were using the name in North America prior to the > United States, or had filed the trademark in the U.S., they > would have no claim to the trademark :) Hmmm. Then could Usa sue the US in Japanese courts? Jim Burns ###### From: Duncan Wood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:31:11 +0100 Organization: Duncan Wood Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Reply-To: replynews1@dmx512.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: techie.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1061850634 6637 80.177.26.50 (25 Aug 2003 22:30:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:30:34 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Opera7.10/Win32 M2 build 2840 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149364 On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:00:32 +0000 (UTC), Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > In article , > Lon Stowell wrote: >> Approximately 8/23/03 14:47, howard@brazee.net uttered for posterity: > >>> On 23-Aug-2003, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > >>>> Wasn't there some town in Japan that named itself "Usa" so that >>>> they could honestly print stickers saying "MADE IN USA"? > >>> For a short amount of time. The US quickly made sure that such >>> stickers >>> were unacceptable, and that experiment was ended. > >> I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states for >> trademark infringement, given that the town was there over a >> thousand years before the declaration of independence. > > Unless they were using the name in North America prior to the United > States, or had filed the trademark in the U.S., they would have no claim > to the trademark :) > > hawk Is USA a trademark? who owns it? ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 25 Aug 03 18:40:32 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-425.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149406 In article ben-public-nospam@decadentplace.org.uk (Ben Hutchings) writes: >They didn't bring back the A500, and really they never did produce >a worthy successor to it, though the 1200 reinstated the full-size >keyboard and the versatile expansion slot. Yes, but that keyboard introduced that damned key with the < and > symbols on it between Z and the left-hand shift key, just like the original IBM PC abomination. That alone was enough to guarantee that I would never touch a 1200. Mind you, I was well entrenched in the line of "real" Amigas, having already had gone from my original 1000 to a 2500 - so I felt I had every right to sneer at those little boxes. :-) At least the 1200 made an honest effort at supporting PCMCIA... >The really stupid thing they did, though, was to release a CD-ROM >drive for the just-discontinued A500, with no corresponding product >for the A600! (There was no reason why they couldn't have made one; >third parties did so a little later.) Wasn't this around the time they were fiddling with things like the DCTV and the CD32? The minds of the top brass were already pretty addled (or their plans to destroy the company were well under way, depending on the state of your liver). I once saw a DCTV on display in a local store. A few seconds of tinkering with the remote control left me in a dead-end state from which there was no escape. I just put down the remote and walked away, and never looked at one of those boxes again. One more grand plan down the dumper... -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:41:31 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030825194131.459de8cc.steveo@eircom.net> References: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Aug 2003 01:01:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0662.nas4-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1061859665 maya.euronet.nl 152 62.234.222.154:2971 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149413 On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:00:32 +0000 (UTC) hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: DREH> In article , DREH> Lon Stowell wrote: DREH> > I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states for DREH> > trademark infringement, given that the town was there over a DREH> > thousand years before the declaration of independence. DREH> DREH> Unless they were using the name in North America prior to the United DREH> States, or had filed the trademark in the U.S., they would have no DREH> claim to the trademark :) They presumably have cause for complaint if items manufactured in the United States are sold there as "Made in Usa". -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F4BA632.7F0B8FD3@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> <3F4A8CBF.C3510BE8@osu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1061915380 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:29:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:29:40 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:29:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149459 Jim Burns wrote: > > "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > > > In article , > > Lon Stowell wrote: > > > > [...] > > > I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states > > > for trademark infringement, given that the town was there > > > over a thousand years before the declaration of independence. > > > > Unless they were using the name in North America prior to the > > United States, or had filed the trademark in the U.S., they > > would have no claim to the trademark :) > > Hmmm. Then could Usa sue the US in Japanese courts? > It may be that the name of the own "Usa" was *not* romanized until very recently. So the question may be..could it be a trademark based entirely on the *sound* of the word??? -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:40:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3F4BA8AB.D8803868@alcyone.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:36:27 -0700 From: Erik Max Francis Organization: Alcyone Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.20 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <714.365T373T6363994@kltpzyxm.invalid> <4iR1b.833$3E.378@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> <3F4A8CBF.C3510BE8@osu.edu> <3F4BA632.7F0B8FD3@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.81.242.190 X-Trace: sv3-wUacITM4lBWQHUgjQpxQDAyCKXHQGrLZM0jrVbWK9AvPTwF6JXbqojvGbodSb6K/pTEjx033yn1KgSk!ThvMCgJmywuO+fVr3jFLRUWepY2kvFApAlUl7uNJNdewEyj++Q+12bU7qA2rMs80JpToS46+fHuH!PGlf X-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@speakeasy.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.speakeasy.net!news.speakeasy.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149431 Charles Richmond wrote: > It may be that the name of the own "Usa" was *not* romanized > until very recently. So the question may be..could it be a > trademark based entirely on the *sound* of the word??? I don't know why people keep mentioning trademark law, because trademark law is not relevant here. What's relevant here are the appropriate treaties governing trade. -- Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE / \ Life is not a spectacle or a feast; it is a predicament. \__/ George Santayana ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:16:17 +0100 Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: Ben Hutchings NNTP-Posting-Host: pc1-cmbg1-4-cust26.cmbg.cable.ntl.com (62.253.133.26) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1061929807 9981433 62.253.133.26 (16 [70929]) X-Orig-Path: decadentplace.org.uk!nobody User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pc1-cmbg1-4-cust26.cmbg.cable.ntl.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149468 In article <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article > > ben-public-nospam@decadentplace.org.uk (Ben Hutchings) writes: > >>They didn't bring back the A500, and really they never did produce >>a worthy successor to it, though the 1200 reinstated the full-size >>keyboard and the versatile expansion slot. > > Yes, but that keyboard introduced that damned key with the < and > > symbols on it between Z and the left-hand shift key, just like the > original IBM PC abomination. That alone was enough to guarantee > that I would never touch a 1200. *shrug* I think all the UK keyboards have that so it didn't seem like a change to me. > Mind you, I was well entrenched in the line of "real" Amigas, having > already had gone from my original 1000 to a 2500 - so I felt I had > every right to sneer at those little boxes. :-) At least the 1200 > made an honest effort at supporting PCMCIA... I thought it had basically the same implementation based on a draft of PCMCIA 2.0. Certainly not every PCMCIA card would work with it. One hardware bug was fixed in later revisions of the motherboard but not until after a lot of A1200s had been produced. >>The really stupid thing they did, though, was to release a CD-ROM >>drive for the just-discontinued A500, with no corresponding product >>for the A600! (There was no reason why they couldn't have made one; >>third parties did so a little later.) > > Wasn't this around the time they were fiddling with things like the > DCTV and the CD32? You mean CDTV. CDTV was based on the A500 and released in 1989; CD32 was based on the A1200 and released as a last gasp in 1993. DCTV was some kind of video card, if I remember correctly. > The minds of the top brass were already pretty > addled (or their plans to destroy the company were well under way, > depending on the state of your liver). I once saw a DCTV on display > in a local store. A few seconds of tinkering with the remote control > left me in a dead-end state from which there was no escape. I just > put down the remote and walked away, and never looked at one of those > boxes again. One more grand plan down the dumper... I don't think CDTV was a totally stupid idea but 1989 was really too early to launch a consumer multimedia device. Philips' CD-i failed similarly, despite a large investment in application development. A few years later it could have had Video CD support and Internet connectivity and been more of a success. -- Ben Hutchings If more than one person is responsible for a bug, no one is at fault. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 26 Aug 03 19:44:18 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1336.368T933T11843970@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-921.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.166.71.118.MISMATCH!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149510 In article ben-public-nospam@decadentplace.org.uk (Ben Hutchings) writes: >In article <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> Wasn't this around the time they were fiddling with things like the >> DCTV and the CD32? > >You mean CDTV. CDTV was based on the A500 and released in 1989; >CD32 was based on the A1200 and released as a last gasp in 1993. >DCTV was some kind of video card, if I remember correctly. Right you are on both counts (CDTV/DCTV). So much time, so few brain cells... and I'm running a flickerFixer instead. >I don't think CDTV was a totally stupid idea but 1989 was really too >early to launch a consumer multimedia device. Philips' CD-i failed >similarly, despite a large investment in application development. A >few years later it could have had Video CD support and Internet >connectivity and been more of a success. You're probably right. People hadn't even figured out yet how to turn the Internet (actually, WWW/email) into the vast wasteland it is today. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <20030825194131.459de8cc.steveo@eircom.net> <1508.368T1673T6675398@kltpzyxm.invalid> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:39:55 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.144.24 X-Trace: 1061949603 freenews.iinet.net.au 23595 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!itgate.net!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp4.phx1!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!freenews.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149514 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >In article hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu >(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >>In article <20030825194131.459de8cc.steveo@eircom.net>, >>Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:00:32 +0000 (UTC) >>>hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>> >>>> In article , >>>> Lon Stowell wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm surprised the town of Usa didn't sue the united states for >>>>> trademark infringement, given that the town was there over a >>>>> thousand years before the declaration of independence. >>>> >>>> Unless they were using the name in North America prior to the United >>>> States, or had filed the trademark in the U.S., they would have no >>>> claim to the trademark :) >>>They presumably have cause for complaint if items manufactured >>>in the United States are sold there as "Made in Usa". >> >>Nah. Even for the average american consumer, the capitilization is so >>bad that they wouldn't buy it, assuming poor quality :) >Given the decline in reading and writing skills (just check out these >newsgroups, although it's creeping into professional work too), I'm >not so sure that this would put off that many people nowadays. What you're seeing nowadays has always been present. Injunears carnt spel. We all know that, don't we? The insulating layer of word-craft professionals that used to exist between those promoted to their level of incompetence or those uncaring professionals; has been eroded by the presence of "word processors" (simile like "food processors") and e-mail. Those who insist in insulting the language and stretching our ability to communicate effectively in writing, now bombard us with ill-structured, bad-worded, misspelt monologues. No small wonder that nobody understands WTF they're saying. Those are the very same criminals who insist on HTML in e-mail because it makes it "look good". To me, it's b-mail (bimbo-mail); looks good but is devoid of intelligence. What's worse is that the people who are paid to run things or to do productive work, spend their days sending b-mail. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:51:26 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030825194131.459de8cc.steveo@eircom.net> <1508.368T1673T6675398@kltpzyxm.invalid> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!chi1.webusenet.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149513 Bernd Felsche wrote: > Those are the very same criminals who insist on HTML in e-mail > because it makes it "look good". To me, it's b-mail (bimbo-mail); > looks good but is devoid of intelligence. If only. A week or two ago a headhunter asked for an updated version of my resume. I keep it in HTML - a nice compact format, with lots of free parsers available - and sent it off as an attachment. She could read it all right, but wanted it in Messy-Word (nine times as big) so that Outlook would show an icon rather than the content. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:23:04 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030827072304.56e239bc.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030825194131.459de8cc.steveo@eircom.net> <1508.368T1673T6675398@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Aug 2003 17:00:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0427.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1062003608 willi.euronet.nl 45393 62.234.217.173:3046 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149548 On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:51:26 -0700 Anton Sherwood wrote: AS> Bernd Felsche wrote: AS> > Those are the very same criminals who insist on HTML in e-mail AS> > because it makes it "look good". To me, it's b-mail (bimbo-mail); AS> > looks good but is devoid of intelligence. AS> AS> If only. A week or two ago a headhunter asked for an updated version AS> of my resume. I keep it in HTML - a nice compact format, with lots of AS> free parsers available - and sent it off as an attachment. She could AS> read it all right, but wanted it in Messy-Word (nine times as big) so AS> that Outlook would show an icon rather than the content. HTML with a .doc extension would probably have done, one colleague has been supplying ASCII documentation with a .doc extension and none of the Word users have caught on. There's a .doc so Windows assumes Word is to be used and Word knows what to do with ASCII text when it sees it so everyone is happy. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: als@usenet.thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <20030825194131.459de8cc.steveo@eircom.net> <1508.368T1673T6675398@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030827072304.56e239bc.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Not all that much Reply-To: als@usenet.thangorodrim.de Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:07:19 +0200 Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2003 00:18:14 MEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.23.64.114 X-Trace: DXC=e][2H5^?ciP\6[GEd:nl>[:ejgIfPPldTjW\KbG]kaMX?INHUAA[RL[VhMjjYb[MJTK?h_^Mh\OHR0[<16;VGWFS X-Complaints-To: abuse@arcor-online.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsread.arcor-online.net!news.arcor.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149619 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:51:26 -0700 >Anton Sherwood wrote: > >AS> Bernd Felsche wrote: >AS> > Those are the very same criminals who insist on HTML in e-mail >AS> > because it makes it "look good". To me, it's b-mail (bimbo-mail); >AS> > looks good but is devoid of intelligence. >AS> >AS> If only. A week or two ago a headhunter asked for an updated version >AS> of my resume. I keep it in HTML - a nice compact format, with lots of >AS> free parsers available - and sent it off as an attachment. She could >AS> read it all right, but wanted it in Messy-Word (nine times as big) so >AS> that Outlook would show an icon rather than the content. > > HTML with a .doc extension would probably have done, one colleague >has been supplying ASCII documentation with a .doc extension and none >of the Word users have caught on. There's a .doc so Windows assumes Word >is to be used and Word knows what to do with ASCII text when it sees it >so everyone is happy. What has also worked for me is to convert it to Richtext Format and name the file something.doc instead of something.rtf. Word apparently trys to guess the real fileformat and so the Word-Lovers were happy. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison ###### From: pmc@finger-rock.com (Patrick Connors) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 28 Aug 2003 09:00:47 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20030825194131.459de8cc.steveo@eircom.net> <1508.368T1673T6675398@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030827072304.56e239bc.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.9.138.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062086449 23004 127.0.0.1 (28 Aug 2003 16:00:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Aug 2003 16:00:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149630 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:51:26 -0700 > Anton Sherwood wrote: > > AS> Bernd Felsche wrote: > AS> > Those are the very same criminals who insist on HTML in e-mail > AS> > because it makes it "look good". To me, it's b-mail (bimbo-mail); > AS> > looks good but is devoid of intelligence. > AS> > AS> If only. A week or two ago a headhunter asked for an updated version > AS> of my resume. I keep it in HTML - a nice compact format, with lots of > AS> free parsers available - and sent it off as an attachment. She could > AS> read it all right, but wanted it in Messy-Word (nine times as big) so > AS> that Outlook would show an icon rather than the content. > > HTML with a .doc extension would probably have done, one colleague > has been supplying ASCII documentation with a .doc extension and none > of the Word users have caught on. There's a .doc so Windows assumes Word > is to be used and Word knows what to do with ASCII text when it sees it > so everyone is happy. I never thought of that, and immediately tested it using my own resume. And it works! - Patrick Connors, lurker ###### Message-ID: <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1062132956 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:55:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:55:56 GMT Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:55:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149742 Adam Atkinson wrote: > > On 26-Aug-03 03:40:32, Charlie Gibbs said: > > >>They didn't bring back the A500, and really they never did produce > >>a worthy successor to it, though the 1200 reinstated the full-size > >>keyboard and the versatile expansion slot. > > >Yes, but that keyboard introduced that damned key with the < and > > >symbols on it between Z and the left-hand shift key, just like the > >original IBM PC abomination. That alone was enough to guarantee > >that I would never touch a 1200. > > What? My 1200 has < and > above , and ., to the right of m. Maybe the > fact that I have a UK keyboard changes something. There's a blank key > between z and the left shift key, and another blank key between # and > carriage return. Not sure what they're for. Other keymaps? > You use the blank key...when you are *not* really sure what you should be typing into your computer... ;-) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:06:49 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149795 Charles Richmond wrote: >Adam Atkinson wrote: [snip] >> What? My 1200 has < and > above , and ., to the right of m. Maybe the >> fact that I have a UK keyboard changes something. There's a blank key >> between z and the left shift key, and another blank key between # and >> carriage return. Not sure what they're for. Other keymaps? >> >You use the blank key...when you are *not* really sure what >you should be typing into your computer... ;-) You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:56:36 -0500 From: Spider Monkey Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:55:51 -0500 Organization: Resistance Cell #CZ24873 Reply-To: spiderOOKmonkey@idworld.net Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.142.70.7 X-Trace: sv3-6YspuMr+BcsNvY2QuebzIwIwnPqfn3moSprmuefNhv6HkctwggrHpNvFRY44Ei9U7Yv6TyOThTVXUwi!LK+hhF8omNq5N2AoH4Zut8oQJ93du842mAsbpStprwCblvB01jkPg6PFY27zy0Hw/BfP7EiXN5Et!NxOgN+Hg X-Complaints-To: abuse@idworld.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@idworld.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.idworld.net!news.idworld.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149853 On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:21:54 GMT, Charles Richmond and 999,999,999 monkeys wrote: >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: >> >> In article , wrote: >> >In article , >> > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >> >>In article <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >> >>Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> >> >>>I look upon "NEW" as referring to the marketing campaign, not the >> >>>product. >> >> >>Product? It means it's shipped in a brand new box :) >> >> >Well, it would increase employment by one--the person who stamps >> >the word "Improved" on the box. >> >> A disturbing portion of "made in USA" stickers are made in foreign >> countries . . . >> >This seems like "false advertising"...I mean, if the sticker says >"Made in USA"...then the damn sticker should be made in the USA!!! The scary part is that Levi jeans MADE the 'Made in USA' stickers in the USA while the jeans were produced in another country....in their 'finishing plant' here in San Antonio, they attached the 'Made in USA' sticker to their pants therefore completing the letter of the rule in that they were 'made' in the states....and had it apply to the label at the very least for legal protection. --oOk --You may touch my monkey! Pet him, Love him! please remove OOK to reply. ###### Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2003 01:01:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0473.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1062291670 maya.euronet.nl 132 62.234.209.219:1083 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149896 On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:40:59 GMT Charles Richmond wrote: CR> Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, but the CR> Accords are "assembled" in the USA. Or does that make it a CR> Japanese car, when the Ford Tempo is probably assembled in CR> Mexico, and *claims* to be an American car??? When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 19 Message-ID: <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p4-max3.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1062283902 32104 203.173.223.36 (30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc2b Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news02.tsnz.net!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149889 In <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> Charles Richmond wrote: > > Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, but the > Accords are "assembled" in the USA. Or does that make it a > Japanese car, when the Ford Tempo is probably assembled in > Mexico, and *claims* to be an American car??? You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth happened in the USA? -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand PS/2 Mouse Adapter for vintage Apple II or Mac order at http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:58:04 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149868 Roger Johnstone wrote: >In <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, but the >> Accords are "assembled" in the USA. Or does that make it a >> Japanese car, when the Ford Tempo is probably assembled in >> Mexico, and *claims* to be an American car??? > >You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an >American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's >about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling >Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the >other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >happened in the USA? They are a very sedate people, so wanted a bland name. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:26:45 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149897 Roger Johnstone wrote: > . . . all the other countries in the Americas came up with names, > what on earth happened in the USA? In 1776 they needed a title in a hurry, and afterward nobody could agree on a replacement. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:49:45 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:48:48 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !a4J-1k-Y-a@T;^1boI> (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149863 Roger Johnstone wrote: > You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an > American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's > about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling > Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > happened in the USA? > > Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand > And, is "New Zealand" just a place holder name until you all come also come up with something original? Anyway, I'm from Texas ... a very much uniquely named place. We in the 'States think of the "Union" as something much different from our individual states. To a large degree the states here have autonomy for affairs within each of our borders. For example, whether to impose the death penalty is left up to each state. So the generic sounding "The United States of America" has significance to us, and a proper name for our federal government might seem to diminish the individual powers of the states. (Or maybe they just never got around to it...) ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:00:36 -0700 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3F5172E4.6040405@jkmicro.com> References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:02:20 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !]BHm1k-WWPi#\2EFO).@srDc (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149862 Roger Johnstone wrote: > In <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> Charles Richmond wrote: > >>Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, but the >>Accords are "assembled" in the USA. Or does that make it a >>Japanese car, when the Ford Tempo is probably assembled in >>Mexico, and *claims* to be an American car??? > > > You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an > American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's > about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling > Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > happened in the USA? Just to let you know... I'm born and educated in the USA, and I got into big trouble in the 3rd grade when I told the teacher that "we" were americans. She quite distinctly pointed out that there are several countries whose citzens can properly claim to be american and I'd best find a more specific way to state the country that I'm from. A lesson I've never forgotten. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:J8VuO93li5UUQiHwpEu5Pc2eV3A= References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2003 06:38:57 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1062304737 news.xs4all.nl 49104 80.127.198.243:1335 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149930 On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described > as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to the USA? Giles. ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:41:24 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:isOzNkgLa9euHaITlfY8bSe105Y= References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2003 06:41:30 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1062304890 news.xs4all.nl 49101 80.127.198.243:1338 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149919 On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Roger Johnstone wrote: > You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an > American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's > about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling > Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > happened in the USA? It's only the Americans who call Los Estados Unidos 'America'. Don't fall into their trap. Giles. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:57:47 -0500 From: Spider Monkey Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:57:44 -0500 Organization: Resistance Cell #CZ24873 Reply-To: spiderOOKmonkey@idworld.net Message-ID: <7gu2lv4o5qfl5aknugr1n6agdfr8g0a4on@4ax.com> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.142.70.36 X-Trace: sv3-VI5IMziGHQlQTFM/hF2NKZtbKxgi9XWY4GPCSjFcA1w/KCw1Uqh2mwQ5eiQqTrDxmInXIfBa8FzXBYe!qOr+gVgAx1wXIB6I92RF1i09SDHVvRAUWljgJ7jZJ7tywxY88iXSV2317J5soqePiNBvEIJUCJAh!xpLpscm+Iw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@idworld.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@idworld.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.idworld.net!news.idworld.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149923 On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:40:59 GMT, Charles Richmond and 999,999,999 monkeys wrote: >Spider Monkey wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> The scary part is that Levi jeans MADE the 'Made in USA' stickers in >> the USA while the jeans were produced in another country....in their >> 'finishing plant' here in San Antonio, they attached the 'Made in USA' >> sticker to their pants therefore completing the letter of the rule in >> that they were 'made' in the states....and had it apply to the label >> at the very least for legal protection. >> >Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, but the >Accords are "assembled" in the USA. Or does that make it a >Japanese car, when the Ford Tempo is probably assembled in >Mexico, and *claims* to be an American car??? Sadly enough, my fiancee and I have spoken of this. According to current agreements, it matters where the company is based for this. She had a Mitsubishi which was built in the US, but only 'import' shops could fix it. >IMHO the Levi jeans should at least say "assembled in USA"... >and *not* made in USA. Or they could say "sticker applied >in the USA"... ;-) Oh yeah, they should....but we know how strict our government is on businesses. :) --You may touch my monkey! Pet him, Love him! please remove OOK to reply. ###### From: jimmydevice Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:04:00 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> In-Reply-To: <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149894 Gene Wirchenko wrote: > Charles Richmond wrote: > > >>Adam Atkinson wrote: > > > You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! > > Sincerely, > > Gene Wirchenko > > Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: > I have preferences. > You have biases. > He/She has prejudices. Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? Jim Davis. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:54:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1062309253 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:54:13 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:54:13 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149921 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, Giles Todd wrote: >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to >the USA? IIRC either the Zephyr or the Zodiac was a full sized American car with fins: one of my tall buddies drove one. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:08:26 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: <1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com> Cancel-Lock: sha1:4oM9+03p7ax1em6Q1y48fHXi1Ow= References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2003 08:08:34 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1062310114 news.xs4all.nl 49104 80.127.198.243:1371 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news2.euro.net!blue.qinip.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149917 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:54:13 GMT, Brian Inglis wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, > Giles Todd wrote: > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > > wrote: > > > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described > >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. > > > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to > >the USA? > > IIRC either the Zephyr or the Zodiac was a full sized American > car with fins: one of my tall buddies drove one. The UK Zodiac was the one with the fins (the Zephyr was all rounded at the edges, if you see what I mean) but it was small compared to US cars at that time. Maybe Ford used the same name for different (US, UK) models? Giles. ###### From: Brian Boutel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> In-Reply-To: <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:16:54 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.144.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1062310615 203.96.144.148 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:16:55 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:16:55 NZST Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149886 Larry__Weiss wrote: > And, is "New Zealand" just a place holder name until you all come also > come up with something original? > There is another name, "Aotearoa". Some people even use "Aotearoa/New Zealand". Such usages are, however, an indication of terminal PC-ness :-( > Anyway, I'm from Texas ... a very much uniquely named place. Unique? How about "Texas: An area located in the NE region of the Kahnawake Indian Reserve close to Rte 132, 2.2mi (3.6km) ESE of Kahnawake Village. (45.398N/73.633W)" --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM ###### Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:34:01 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030831083401.6ee566c9.steveo@eircom.net> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Aug 2003 08:08:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0451.nas2-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1062317287 willi.euronet.nl 45383 62.234.213.197:1104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149893 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 Giles Todd wrote: GT> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith GT> wrote: GT> GT> > When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often GT> > described GT> > as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite GT> > right. GT> GT> How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to GT> the USA? That was of course the point - when I thought about it I decided that multi-national corporations don't really have a nationality and that the best way to think of Dagenham was as a part of the Ford motor industry that happens to be in England. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1062313846 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:10:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:10:46 GMT Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:10:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149907 Larry__Weiss wrote: > > Roger Johnstone wrote: > > You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an > > American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's > > about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling > > Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the > > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > > happened in the USA? > > > > Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand > > > > And, is "New Zealand" just a place holder name until you all come also > come up with something original? > And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* Zealand anyway??? > > Anyway, I'm from Texas ... a very much uniquely named place. > The name "Texas" comes from "Tejas", which is an American Indian word meaning "friendly". > > We in the 'States think of the "Union" as something much different from > our individual states. > That's because the US federal union *is* different than the individual states. > > To a large degree the states here have autonomy for affairs within each of > our borders. For example, whether to impose the death penalty is left > up to each state. > "States' rights" are being eroded at such a rapid rate these days...it's a wonder that there is anything left up to the individual states. George W. was made President because the *federal* Supreme Court interfered in the election in Florida, going against precidences long established...that the court will stay out of such things. That's what happens when you get a majority of Republican nominated judges on the court...and the vote for the decision of the court was straight along the party lines. While it is true that for *state* crimes, each state can decide whether to have a death penalty and *how* to administer it...for *federal* crimes in *any* state, some carry a death penalty. To say that each state controls the death penalty within its borders...is to ignore this blatant fact. > > So the generic sounding "The United States of America" has significance to us, > and a proper name for our federal government might seem to diminish the individual > powers of the states. (Or maybe they just never got around to it...) > "E Pluribus Unum"..."one out of many". IMHO the states more resemble squabbling siblings rather than "united states"... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Thomas Womack Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 31 Aug 2003 08:44:02 +0100 (BST) Organization: Linux Unlimited Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rapun.sel.cam.ac.uk Originator: twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk ([193.201.200.170]) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!feeder2.news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149901 In article <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* > Zealand anyway??? It's a province of the Netherlands. I would like to know who named New Britain and New Ireland; given that both are tropical hell-holes, on a plate boundary so plagued with volcanoes and Richter-7 earthquakes, my vague assumption is that it was a Frenchman. Tom ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 31 Aug 2003 08:38:44 GMT Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-191-145.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1062319124 news.dial.pipex.com 240 62.241.191.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!130.59.10.21.MISMATCH!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149874 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200, Giles Todd wrote: >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to >the USA? Quite a few of the upright Anglias made it over there, they were a popular base for hot-rods, espically for drag racers. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <7gu2lv4o5qfl5aknugr1n6agdfr8g0a4on@4ax.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 31 Aug 2003 08:38:45 GMT Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-191-145.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1062319125 news.dial.pipex.com 240 62.241.191.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!130.59.10.21.MISMATCH!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149873 On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:57:44 -0500, Spider Monkey wrote: >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:40:59 GMT, Charles Richmond >and 999,999,999 monkeys wrote: > >>> >>Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, but the >>Accords are "assembled" in the USA. Or does that make it a >>Japanese car, when the Ford Tempo is probably assembled in >>Mexico, and *claims* to be an American car??? > >Sadly enough, my fiancee and I have spoken of this. According to >current agreements, it matters where the company is based for this. >She had a Mitsubishi which was built in the US, but only 'import' >shops could fix it. Some of the Hondas, and many of the Nissans, sold in the USA are made here in Britain, so are they Japanese or Euro cars over there? We even manage to export Hondas *to* Japan! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Lines: 32 Message-ID: <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p48-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1062319525 26944 203.173.222.176 (31 Aug 2003 08:45:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:45:25 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Halime (MacOSX)/1.0rc2b Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.superfeed.net!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149888 In Thomas Womack wrote: > In article <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >> And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* >> Zealand anyway??? > > It's a province of the Netherlands. Depending on which story you believe, New Zealand was originally Nieuw Zeeland. Zeeland (pronounced ZAY lahnt), was one of the maritime provinces in the Netherlands, in fact Zeeland means Sea Land. Understandable since like a lot of the Netherlands half of it used to be under water. Australia was once called New Holland, after another slightly more famous province of the Netherlands. > I would like to know who named New Britain and New Ireland; given that > both are tropical hell-holes, on a plate boundary so plagued with > volcanoes and Richter-7 earthquakes, my vague assumption is that it > was a Frenchman. > > Tom Probably related to the person who named Greenland. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand PS/2 Mouse Adapter for vintage Apple II or Mac order at http://vintageware.orcon.net.nz ###### From: Samuel Penn Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.science References: <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Lines: 18 Organization: Somewhere else in Aldershot User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:38:37 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.6.25.231 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net 1062324023 80.6.25.231 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:00:23 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:00:23 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149872 Roger Johnstone wrote: > In Thomas Womack wrote: >> I would like to know who named New Britain and New Ireland; given that >> both are tropical hell-holes, on a plate boundary so plagued with >> volcanoes and Richter-7 earthquakes, my vague assumption is that it >> was a Frenchman. > Probably related to the person who named Greenland. Greenland was a lot greener when it was named. Hmm... what's wrong with calling the USA Vinland? -- Be seeing you, Sam. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:51:46 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <310820031251461133%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Thoth/1.7.1 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149880 In article , jimmydevice wrote: > Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! > Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? > Jim Davis. That has to be the perfect post for a.f.c ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:05:11 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149934 jimmydevice wrote: >Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> >>>Adam Atkinson wrote: >> > >> >> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! >Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: "gezn2" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 31 Aug 2003 10:56:06 -0500 Organization: Herman W. Mudgett Memorial Chowder and Marching Society Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3f521a15$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com> References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!chi1.webusenet.com!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149941 "Anton Sherwood" wrote in message news:vl2jiqh43ilse5@corp.supernews.com... > Roger Johnstone wrote: > > . . . all the other countries in the Americas came up with names, > > what on earth happened in the USA? > > In 1776 they needed a title in a hurry, and afterward nobody could agree > on a replacement. > LMAO Think of thirteen squabbling little countries, and one maverick, many of whom did'nt like each other very much lashing up a confederation to try and keep thier leaders from getting hung for treason when a tax protest went *horribly*wrong...... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/20/2003 ###### From: "gezn2" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 31 Aug 2003 10:56:16 -0500 Organization: Herman W. Mudgett Memorial Chowder and Marching Society Lines: 57 Message-ID: <3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> <1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149940 "Giles Todd" wrote in message news:1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com... > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:54:13 GMT, Brian Inglis > wrote: > > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, > > Giles Todd wrote: > > > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > > > wrote: > > > > > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described > > >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. > > > > > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to > > >the USA? > > > > IIRC either the Zephyr or the Zodiac was a full sized American > > car with fins: one of my tall buddies drove one. > > The UK Zodiac was the one with the fins (the Zephyr was all rounded at > the edges, if you see what I mean) but it was small compared to US > cars at that time. Maybe Ford used the same name for different (US, > UK) models? > > Giles. Some Cortinas made it over here in the sixties, some Prefects and Anglias in the fourties and fifties, there was a brief fling with the XR4TI badged as the "Merkur" in the eighties, and we can't forget the most "successful" brit import the Capri for a few years in the seventies. Sorry to say Ford never had much luck with the european models it tried to sell over here, IMHO it was mostly an attitude problem on the part of the sales force but I'm sure the profit margins were pretty thin on the ones they did sell. To my knowledge the only Ford of Europe model names they used over here were Granada and Zephyr on some really awful flimsy "fox" platform cars in the late seventies and early eighties and Capri on a thinly disguised Mustang after they stopped importing the real thing. We did have Escorts over here in the eighties that were supposed to be "World cars" but the only common part with the rest of the world was a water pump gasket. The British models were relatively more successful in Canada, maybe due to commonwealth tax advantages and there seems to've been a wider selection up there too as I've seen pictures of a Zodiac "on the hoof" in BC. Todd, Occasional Practical Classics reader...... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/20/2003 ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Hamblen Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net> Organization: Utterly Disorganized User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 15 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:47:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.159.7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1062348425 216.80.159.7 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:47:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:47:05 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149935 In article <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > Roger Johnstone wrote: > >>about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling >>Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the >>other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >>happened in the USA? > > They are a very sedate people, so wanted a bland name. The states have all the neat names: Alabama, Alaska, etc. Only the "new" names are dull: New Hampshire, etc. The US is the only country in the New World with "America" in its name. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:55:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1062348906 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:55:06 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:55:06 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149947 On 31 Aug 2003 08:38:44 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200, Giles Todd wrote: >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith >> wrote: >> >>> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described >>> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. >> >>How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to >>the USA? > >Quite a few of the upright Anglias made it over there, they were a popular >base for hot-rods, espically for drag racers. Wasn't the ubiquitous DIY rally car a Mini with an Anglia engine? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Robert Allison Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 31 Aug 2003 17:03:22 GMT Organization: Pine Ridge Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-777.newsdawg.com X-Hamster-Trace: pine-ridge-org 1062345796 4294261627 127.0.0.1 (1 fff53b7b 2003.08.31 16:03:16) User-Agent: Xnews/06.02.16 Hamster-Fr/2.0.0.9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149933 Samuel Penn wrote in news:chfsib.psk.ln@wotan.local: > Roger Johnstone wrote: > >> Probably related to the person who named Greenland. > > Greenland was a lot greener when it was named. I understood it was named by some guy in Marketing in order to entice settlers to the island Back Then. > Hmm... what's wrong with calling the USA Vinland? Because Vinland was likely in Canada, perhaps? Robert -- Robert Allison Pine Ridge Systems www.pine-ridge.org ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1062354528 12.240.77.188 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:28:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:28:48 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:28:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149932 Approximately 8/30/03 21:38, Giles Todd uttered for posterity: > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. > > How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to > the USA? The Lotus Cortina was a somewhat popular little pocket rocket amongst the knowing cargeeks in the USofA, a step upwards from the Cooper S. ###### From: "Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> <1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com> <3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 49 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: <1Zs4b.75345$bo1.37948@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:34:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.139.123.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1062362045 144.139.123.30 (Mon, 01 Sep 2003 06:34:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 06:34:05 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.sprintnetops.net!lon-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149973 "gezn2" wrote in message news:3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com... > > "Giles Todd" wrote in message > news:1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com... > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:54:13 GMT, Brian Inglis > > wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, > > > Giles Todd wrote: > > > > > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described > > > >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite > right. > > > > > > > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to > > > >the USA? > > > > > > IIRC either the Zephyr or the Zodiac was a full sized American > > > car with fins: one of my tall buddies drove one. > > > > The UK Zodiac was the one with the fins (the Zephyr was all rounded at > > the edges, if you see what I mean) but it was small compared to US > > cars at that time. Maybe Ford used the same name for different (US, > > UK) models? > > > > Giles. > > Some Cortinas made it over here in the sixties, some Prefects and Anglias in > the fourties and fifties, there was a brief fling with the XR4TI badged as > the "Merkur" in the eighties, and we can't forget the most "successful" brit > import the Capri for a few years in the seventies. Might be a different Capri, but wasn't that one made in Oz? IIRC they did export them to the USA, and that was their target market for it (ie young females). Whilst they also sold down under, you won't find a 'bloke' admitting to owning one... just the sheilas ....lol. Combat Wombat ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:34:25 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149962 > Larry__Weiss wrote: >> To a large degree the states here have autonomy for affairs within >> each of our borders. For example, whether to impose the death >> penalty is left up to each state. Charles Richmond wrote: > While it is true that for *state* crimes, each state can decide > whether to have a death penalty and *how* to administer it...for > *federal* crimes in *any* state, some carry a death penalty. To say > that each state controls the death penalty within its borders...is > to ignore this blatant fact. Ah but Larry__Weiss didn't say that. He said each State decides whether or not to *impose* such a penalty. States don't do that for Federal crimes, because those are tried in Federal courts. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:36:11 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149963 Giles Todd wrote: > It's only the Americans who call Los Estados Unidos 'America'. > Don't fall into their trap. Is this meant as a bit of self-referential humor? -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ and am I too obscure again? ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:39:21 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> In-Reply-To: <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149961 Larry__Weiss wrote: > So the generic sounding "The United States of America" has significance to us, > and a proper name for our federal government might seem to diminish the individual > powers of the states. (Or maybe they just never got around to it...) I sometimes call it "the Potomac Regime". -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### From: "gezn2" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 31 Aug 2003 16:03:10 -0500 Organization: Herman W. Mudgett Memorial Chowder and Marching Society Lines: 67 Message-ID: <3f5261f1$0$86177$45beb828@newscene.com> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> <1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com> <3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com> <1Zs4b.75345$bo1.37948@news-server.bigpond.net.au> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149960 "Combat Wombat (was Andrew)" wrote in message news:1Zs4b.75345$bo1.37948@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > > "gezn2" wrote in message > news:3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com... > > > > "Giles Todd" wrote in message > > news:1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com... > > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:54:13 GMT, Brian Inglis > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, > > > > Giles Todd wrote: > > > > > > > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described > > > > >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite > > right. > > > > > > > > > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to > > > > >the USA? > > > > > > > > IIRC either the Zephyr or the Zodiac was a full sized American > > > > car with fins: one of my tall buddies drove one. > > > > > > The UK Zodiac was the one with the fins (the Zephyr was all rounded at > > > the edges, if you see what I mean) but it was small compared to US > > > cars at that time. Maybe Ford used the same name for different (US, > > > UK) models? > > > > > > Giles. > > > > Some Cortinas made it over here in the sixties, some Prefects and Anglias > in > > the fourties and fifties, there was a brief fling with the XR4TI badged as > > the "Merkur" in the eighties, and we can't forget the most "successful" > brit > > import the Capri for a few years in the seventies. > > > > Might be a different Capri, but wasn't that one made in Oz? IIRC they did > export them to the USA, and that was their target market for it (ie young > females). Whilst they also sold down under, you won't find a 'bloke' > admitting to owning one... just the sheilas ....lol. > AFAIK they were Ford of England assembled with a Ford of Germany engine. Right after high school one of my friends had a fairly new used one, he did'nt have anything bad to say about it, I rode in the thing a few times and it seemed like a fairly well done piece of equipment. I think if Ford had handled the sales end better they could've gotten a decent share of the cash that Datsun and Toyota were making at the time. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/20/2003 ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> <1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com> <3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com> <1Zs4b.75345$bo1.37948@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <3f5261f1$0$86177$45beb828@newscene.com> In-Reply-To: <3f5261f1$0$86177$45beb828@newscene.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 Message-ID: <9Dt4b.316720$YN5.216831@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1062364741 12.240.77.188 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:19:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:19:01 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:19:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149954 Approximately 8/31/03 14:03, gezn2 uttered for posterity: > "Combat Wombat (was Andrew)" wrote in > message news:1Zs4b.75345$bo1.37948@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >> >> "gezn2" wrote in message >> news:3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com... >> > >> > "Giles Todd" wrote in message >> > news:1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com... >> > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:54:13 GMT, Brian Inglis >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, >> > > > Giles Todd wrote: >> > > > >> > > > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often > described >> > > > >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite >> > right. >> > > > > >> > > > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it > to >> > > > >the USA? >> > > > >> > > > IIRC either the Zephyr or the Zodiac was a full sized American >> > > > car with fins: one of my tall buddies drove one. >> > > >> > > The UK Zodiac was the one with the fins (the Zephyr was all rounded at >> > > the edges, if you see what I mean) but it was small compared to US >> > > cars at that time. Maybe Ford used the same name for different (US, >> > > UK) models? >> > > >> > > Giles. >> > >> > Some Cortinas made it over here in the sixties, some Prefects and > Anglias >> in >> > the fourties and fifties, there was a brief fling with the XR4TI badged > as >> > the "Merkur" in the eighties, and we can't forget the most "successful" >> brit >> > import the Capri for a few years in the seventies. >> >> >> >> Might be a different Capri, but wasn't that one made in Oz? IIRC they did >> export them to the USA, and that was their target market for it (ie young >> females). Whilst they also sold down under, you won't find a 'bloke' >> admitting to owning one... just the sheilas ....lol. >> > AFAIK they were Ford of England assembled with a Ford of Germany engine. > Right after high school one of my friends had a fairly new used one, he > did'nt have anything bad to say about it, I rode in the thing a few times > and it seemed like a fairly well done piece of equipment. I think if Ford > had handled the sales end better they could've gotten a decent share of the > cash that Datsun and Toyota were making at the time. That sounds pretty close to my recollection. There was a nice little 4 banger standard and a V6 optional. With the V6 it was a fairly nice little car, much more popular and socially acceptable than its sister the Pinto. Also more popular than the Audi Fox, although the Audi had a following amongst hippies that would steal the fox emblem for use as jewelry. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 01 Sep 03 09:17:45 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGIg5PNLxVRaDfH7qRDrQwtaIpkpWrxZulzNvGos4XEt5qkMC9JC5g X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 2003 10:25:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-30 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149982 In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >jimmydevice wrote: > >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>> Charles Richmond wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! > >>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? > > Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:40:39 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030831214039.05233b72.steveo@eircom.net> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Sep 2003 01:01:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0512.nas2-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1062378066 willi.euronet.nl 45381 62.234.214.4:1175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149992 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:49:25 +0100 Joe wrote: J> The fastest Minis (Cooper S) used a somewhat J> modified A-series engine, not far from the standard Mini design. The J> transverse-engine Mini was so radically different from everything else J> at the time in size and layout that no other engine was much use. The Rover 3.5l V8 was possible - at the expense of back seats. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:36:06 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149995 Giles Todd wrote: > How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc > made it to the USA? Circa 1968 I remember riding around Pasadena in a light blue Anglia (same color as in Secret Harry and the Chamberpots) listening to "ka doble u ka doble u" as Dad taught himself Spanish. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> From: Mike Spencer X-Organization: Bridgewater Institute for Advanced Study - Blacksmith Shop Message-ID: Organization: Bridgewater Institute for Advanced Study - Blacksmith Shop Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Date: 31 Aug 2003 22:42:33 -0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.222.77.2 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1062380554 24.222.77.2 (Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:42:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:42:34 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150001 >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > wrote: > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to >the USA? One Zephyr. In the late 60s, the owner brought it to BJ's Foreign Auto in Amherst, Mass. where I was a mechanic because we were the only place in the area that would work on cars nobody had ever heard of. Jag, Borgward, Hillman, MG, Fiat & VW were daily fare. We had worked on a Panhard, and Amphicar and an Aston Martin with a Ford V8 crammed under the hood without ever having heard of them before. Still it took us awhile to figure out what the Zephyr was and where it came from. Two years later I lived in Nova Scotia. Live and learn. -- Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada ###### Message-ID: <3F52B2F4.E255D08A@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:46:12 +1000 From: Bernie Dwyer Organization: Very Little X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> <1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com> <3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com> <1Zs4b.75345$bo1.37948@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.52.54.150 X-Trace: 1062384177 lon-reader.news.telstra.net 95045 203.52.54.150 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!lon-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!lon-spool.news.telstra.net!203.50.2.94.MISMATCH!reader.news.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149991 "Combat Wombat (was Andrew)" wrote: > > > > Might be a different Capri, but wasn't that one made in Oz? IIRC they did > export them to the USA, and that was their target market for it (ie young > females). Whilst they also sold down under, you won't find a 'bloke' > admitting to owning one... just the sheilas ....lol. > > Combat Wombat Ford sold a couple of Capri models in OZ from (IIRC) 1969 - 1972. A 1600cc inline four (same engine in the Cortina), and a 3-litre V-6 (German engine, I think). Same floor pan, suspension and gearbox as the Cortina. They stopped importing into OZ, but you could still buy 4 and 6 cylinder Capris in the UK for some years. I think the last models had a choice of a 2-litre four, or a 2.8 litre fuel-injected engine. Guess which capri I had, and guess which one I wanted to have! My capri caught fire on the way home from a weekend camping trip - the fuel line popped off the carburettor, and pumped fuel all over the exhaust manifold. A sad day, but at least no-one was hurt, and the car went out in spectacular fashion! Then in the 80s Ford Australia developed the Capri you're probably thinking of - covertable, leaky vinyl roof, front-wheel drive. Big seller in the US market (well, big for for Ford Australia). Talk about thread drift! Bernie Dwyer Dump the z to reply to me ***************************** ###### From: Michael Ash Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 01:00:09 -0400 Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.203 User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uwm.edu!mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149981 In article , Giles Todd wrote: > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Roger Johnstone > wrote: > > > You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an > > American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's > > about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling > > Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the > > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > > happened in the USA? > > It's only the Americans who call Los Estados Unidos 'America'. Don't > fall into their trap. I've travelled quite a bit and talked to a pretty wide variety of people, and I have to say that in my experience this is wrong. Lots of furriners call it 'America'. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 01 Sep 2003 05:04:42 GMT Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-190-96.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1062392682 news.dial.pipex.com 261 62.241.190.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:149980 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:49:25 +0100, Joe wrote: >The >transverse-engine Mini was so radically different from everything else >at the time in size and layout that no other engine was much use. Later >on, it was just about possible to squeeze a Maxi engine into a Mini, but >the handling was affected too badly for it to be a useful thing to do. You used to be able to buy a kit to put a cross-flow (1300 or 1600) Ford engine onto the Mini gearbox. I have seen a twin-cam engined one. These days people put 2-litre 16-valve Vauxhall engines in...gives a performance than can be descibed as "adequate" :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: "Combat Wombat \(was Andrew\)" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> <5a33lv84bvmbf2mso81aogals6lf9kgrer@4ax.com> <1u33lvcpl8fr876p4lrikat7crdp8k7obs@4ax.com> <3f521a14$0$9430$45beb828@newscene.com> <1Zs4b.75345$bo1.37948@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <3F52B2F4.E255D08A@caloundra.qld.gov.au> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4925.2800 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 09:18:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.139.124.45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1062407927 144.139.124.45 (Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:18:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:18:47 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news.moat.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150005 "Bernie Dwyer" wrote in message news:3F52B2F4.E255D08A@caloundra.qld.gov.au... > "Combat Wombat (was Andrew)" wrote: > > > > > > > > Might be a different Capri, but wasn't that one made in Oz? IIRC they did > > export them to the USA, and that was their target market for it (ie young > > females). Whilst they also sold down under, you won't find a 'bloke' > > admitting to owning one... just the sheilas ....lol. > > > > Combat Wombat > > Ford sold a couple of Capri models in OZ from (IIRC) 1969 - 1972. A > 1600cc inline four (same engine in the Cortina), and a 3-litre V-6 > (German engine, I think). Same floor pan, suspension and gearbox as the > Cortina. They stopped importing into OZ, but you could still buy 4 and 6 > cylinder Capris in the UK for some years. I think the last models had a > choice of a 2-litre four, or a 2.8 litre fuel-injected engine. Guess > which capri I had, and guess which one I wanted to have! > Boy... forgot totally about that one... the later one flushed the data from the system (at least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!). Remember it now that this thread has refreshed the memory. > My capri caught fire on the way home from a weekend camping trip - the > fuel line popped off the carburettor, and pumped fuel all over the > exhaust manifold. A sad day, but at least no-one was hurt, and the car > went out in spectacular fashion! > > Then in the 80s Ford Australia developed the Capri you're probably > thinking of - covertable, leaky vinyl roof, front-wheel drive. Big > seller in the US market (well, big for for Ford Australia). > That was the one I was thinking about.... Combat Wombat ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:07:55 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: < <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1062447302 8537 193.71.197.12 (1 Sep 2003 20:15:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:15:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!193.75.75.20.MISMATCH!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150033 In article <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz>, Roger Johnstone wrote: >In Thomas Womack wrote: >> In article <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >>> And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* >>> Zealand anyway??? [snip] > >> I would like to know who named New Britain and New Ireland; given that >> both are tropical hell-holes, on a plate boundary so plagued with >> volcanoes and Richter-7 earthquakes, my vague assumption is that it >> was a Frenchman. >> >> Tom > >Probably related to the person who named Greenland. Greenland was named by Erik Raude, the father of Leif Ericsson, a few decades before the first millenium. He had been recruting in Norway for settlements in Iceland, and had found the name a definate detriment, and wanted something that assisted in marketing. Greenland was chosen after careful market analysis; and could be defended as the ice gives a distinct blue-green hue as you approach Greenland from the sea. His son used the same style of naming when the naming of America (OK, New Foundland) was done, naming it Vinland, a deliberate use of confusing the fact that Vin in nominative in Norse can mean both "grassy plain" and "wine"; but have distict grammatical use that make them different in all other forms. Leif Ericsson was also just a PHB in the expedition, others were the real discoverers. They would have made it great in marketing a millennium later in the land they found, but were unable to defend. -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:10:12 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: < <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1062447303 8537 193.71.197.12 (1 Sep 2003 20:15:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:15:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150035 In article , Giles Todd wrote: >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Roger Johnstone > wrote: > >> You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an >> American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's >> about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling >> Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the >> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >> happened in the USA? > >It's only the Americans who call Los Estados Unidos 'America'. Don't >fall into their trap. Norwegians also fall into the trap of calling Sambandsstatene "America". We should really use Vinland; although that is really Canada. -- mrr ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 1 Sep 2003 17:31:18 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.255.224 X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1062437478 14195645 159.134.255.224 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!159.134.255.224!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150009 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:36:06 -0700, Anton Sherwood wrote: > Giles Todd wrote: > > How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc > > made it to the USA? > > Circa 1968 I remember riding around Pasadena in a light blue Anglia > (same color as in Secret Harry and the Chamberpots) listening to "ka > doble u ka doble u" as Dad taught himself Spanish. > AFAIremember, there were two Anglia's, in UKOGBANI, one like the Prefect, of blessed memory, another with a recessed back window, as now seen the the UK nostalgia series 'Heartbeat'. "Ka doble u ka doble u"? Radio Station? -- greymaus as in My Fair Lady. Mau'ddib ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:33:39 -0500 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:33:38 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.57.2.36 X-Trace: sv3-YzLfsApCAIWQnA9PN2X7h0bcslE/KpBzLlFqDazOtahe7ZzUEzCqp4gB4dpnRt/HKq8rLA4Mh0aggDo!6kgOinSLLRuwuDo6tE7cNR5BBH8YlYvPiOJO7AJN9V/kKj5jtVRZBKtvBpMRp7/yzBZmGD3dtGe3!YA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150027 "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... > I mean, all the > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > happened in the USA? > How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? USAians are from "America", while those of the Great White North are "North Americans". A little something I learned from watching the same car commercials on US network TV and the CBC on satellite. Ask a Mexican and they say they are from their home state: Chihuahua, Oaxaca, Sonora, etc. (Easy to verify, just listen to a Spanish language radio station in the US that has call-ins.) Never ever heard anyone from Mexico claiming to be "American" except when asked by immigration. As for car commercials on Mexican TV, everyone knows parts for Chevies are made in Mexico, no need to claim it's American or North American. Jack Peacock "Soy un gringo de El Norte" ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1062452457 12.240.77.188 (Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150007 Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: > "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message > news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >> I mean, all the >> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >> happened in the USA? >> > How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 02 Sep 03 10:04:02 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbEymI4Mg9Ihp5eq5ar9WNOjXuFJR9ZYdjl8hIJxppBBeNqwdoulwPg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Sep 2003 11:11:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150127 In article <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >> >jimmydevice wrote: >> > >> >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> >>> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! >> > >> >>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? >> > >> > Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! >> >> Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. >> >Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... > Unix is so wordy. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 02 Sep 03 10:04:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbbnL+X+HMDf2s55MlvV0YuEmJUP/MwcF/7nqYBx2pMwibScP3IWAcq X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Sep 2003 11:12:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150129 In article , jpdavis wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: > >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>>In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, >>> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >>> >>>>jimmydevice wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Charles Richmond wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! >>>> >>>>>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? >>>> >>>> Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! >>> >>>Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. >>> >> >> Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... >> >> -- >I wasn't following the thread closely, and it was late, Hic. >;-) Haec, hoc. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 02 Sep 03 11:15:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbkNuRUujS3bSiHju2pvUVuCGWNSdzoJYZV9XpXprOZTxF4pUfwQ0v9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Sep 2003 12:23:32 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150109 In article <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong>, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:bj1tta$q73$7@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, >> >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >> >> >jimmydevice wrote: >> >> > >> >> >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> >> >>> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! >> >> > >> >> >>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? >> >> > >> >> > Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! >> >> >> >> Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. >> >> >> >Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... >> > >> Unix is so wordy. > >If that's a problem just set an environment variable >called "NUL" to "/dev/null" and use that instead. I bet that takes a lot, too. TOPS-10's way was .ASSIGN NUL FOO hmmm...I wonder if that would work. All FOOs would go to NUL:. > >cat bah_unix_phobia.ascii.ascii.ascii.dammit > $NUL > >In practice I find UNIX fairly concise, It's terribly wordy. > .. although I >admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. >If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at >least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the -10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. Even smart people can't identify white space. hmm...I wonder if depending on COMPIL from early on helped us get our command standards act together. I think I blame ;-) this mostly on our writers. They had a difficult time documenting one set of commands. Having to explain a concept 10 different ways probably had a lot to do with standardizing certain things. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 02 Sep 03 11:16:34 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaQlVNNfkcd5Qg1YFx5ydApKzeY0xhE1XXwN4aYzr9DUq7Pqv7HPvwG X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Sep 2003 12:24:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150110 In article , Lon Stowell wrote: >Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: > >> "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message >> news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >>> I mean, all the >>> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >>> happened in the USA? >>> >> How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? > > Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". WTF! Huh? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:07:55 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: < <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1062447302 8537 193.71.197.12 (1 Sep 2003 20:15:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:15:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!193.75.75.20.MISMATCH!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150078 In article <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz>, Roger Johnstone wrote: >In Thomas Womack wrote: >> In article <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >>> And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* >>> Zealand anyway??? [snip] > >> I would like to know who named New Britain and New Ireland; given that >> both are tropical hell-holes, on a plate boundary so plagued with >> volcanoes and Richter-7 earthquakes, my vague assumption is that it >> was a Frenchman. >> >> Tom > >Probably related to the person who named Greenland. Greenland was named by Erik Raude, the father of Leif Ericsson, a few decades before the first millenium. He had been recruting in Norway for settlements in Iceland, and had found the name a definate detriment, and wanted something that assisted in marketing. Greenland was chosen after careful market analysis; and could be defended as the ice gives a distinct blue-green hue as you approach Greenland from the sea. His son used the same style of naming when the naming of America (OK, New Foundland) was done, naming it Vinland, a deliberate use of confusing the fact that Vin in nominative in Norse can mean both "grassy plain" and "wine"; but have distict grammatical use that make them different in all other forms. Leif Ericsson was also just a PHB in the expedition, others were the real discoverers. They would have made it great in marketing a millennium later in the land they found, but were unable to defend. -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:07:55 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: < <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1062447302 8537 193.71.197.12 (1 Sep 2003 20:15:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:15:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!193.75.75.20.MISMATCH!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150169 In article <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz>, Roger Johnstone wrote: >In Thomas Womack wrote: >> In article <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >>> And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* >>> Zealand anyway??? [snip] > >> I would like to know who named New Britain and New Ireland; given that >> both are tropical hell-holes, on a plate boundary so plagued with >> volcanoes and Richter-7 earthquakes, my vague assumption is that it >> was a Frenchman. >> >> Tom > >Probably related to the person who named Greenland. Greenland was named by Erik Raude, the father of Leif Ericsson, a few decades before the first millenium. He had been recruting in Norway for settlements in Iceland, and had found the name a definate detriment, and wanted something that assisted in marketing. Greenland was chosen after careful market analysis; and could be defended as the ice gives a distinct blue-green hue as you approach Greenland from the sea. His son used the same style of naming when the naming of America (OK, New Foundland) was done, naming it Vinland, a deliberate use of confusing the fact that Vin in nominative in Norse can mean both "grassy plain" and "wine"; but have distict grammatical use that make them different in all other forms. Leif Ericsson was also just a PHB in the expedition, others were the real discoverers. They would have made it great in marketing a millennium later in the land they found, but were unable to defend. -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:10:12 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: < <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1062447303 8537 193.71.197.12 (1 Sep 2003 20:15:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:15:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150080 In article , Giles Todd wrote: >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Roger Johnstone > wrote: > >> You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an >> American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's >> about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling >> Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the >> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >> happened in the USA? > >It's only the Americans who call Los Estados Unidos 'America'. Don't >fall into their trap. Norwegians also fall into the trap of calling Sambandsstatene "America". We should really use Vinland; although that is really Canada. -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:10:12 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: < <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1062447303 8537 193.71.197.12 (1 Sep 2003 20:15:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:15:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150171 In article , Giles Todd wrote: >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Roger Johnstone > wrote: > >> You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an >> American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's >> about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling >> Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the >> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >> happened in the USA? > >It's only the Americans who call Los Estados Unidos 'America'. Don't >fall into their trap. Norwegians also fall into the trap of calling Sambandsstatene "America". We should really use Vinland; although that is really Canada. -- mrr ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 1 Sep 2003 17:31:18 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.255.224 X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1062437478 14195645 159.134.255.224 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!159.134.255.224!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150054 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:36:06 -0700, Anton Sherwood wrote: > Giles Todd wrote: > > How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc > > made it to the USA? > > Circa 1968 I remember riding around Pasadena in a light blue Anglia > (same color as in Secret Harry and the Chamberpots) listening to "ka > doble u ka doble u" as Dad taught himself Spanish. > AFAIremember, there were two Anglia's, in UKOGBANI, one like the Prefect, of blessed memory, another with a recessed back window, as now seen the the UK nostalgia series 'Heartbeat'. "Ka doble u ka doble u"? Radio Station? -- greymaus as in My Fair Lady. Mau'ddib ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 1 Sep 2003 17:31:18 GMT Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.255.224 X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1062437478 14195645 159.134.255.224 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!159.134.255.224!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150102 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:36:06 -0700, Anton Sherwood wrote: > Giles Todd wrote: > > How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc > > made it to the USA? > > Circa 1968 I remember riding around Pasadena in a light blue Anglia > (same color as in Secret Harry and the Chamberpots) listening to "ka > doble u ka doble u" as Dad taught himself Spanish. > AFAIremember, there were two Anglia's, in UKOGBANI, one like the Prefect, of blessed memory, another with a recessed back window, as now seen the the UK nostalgia series 'Heartbeat'. "Ka doble u ka doble u"? Radio Station? -- greymaus as in My Fair Lady. Mau'ddib ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:33:39 -0500 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:33:38 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.57.2.36 X-Trace: sv3-YzLfsApCAIWQnA9PN2X7h0bcslE/KpBzLlFqDazOtahe7ZzUEzCqp4gB4dpnRt/HKq8rLA4Mh0aggDo!6kgOinSLLRuwuDo6tE7cNR5BBH8YlYvPiOJO7AJN9V/kKj5jtVRZBKtvBpMRp7/yzBZmGD3dtGe3!YA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150072 "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... > I mean, all the > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > happened in the USA? > How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? USAians are from "America", while those of the Great White North are "North Americans". A little something I learned from watching the same car commercials on US network TV and the CBC on satellite. Ask a Mexican and they say they are from their home state: Chihuahua, Oaxaca, Sonora, etc. (Easy to verify, just listen to a Spanish language radio station in the US that has call-ins.) Never ever heard anyone from Mexico claiming to be "American" except when asked by immigration. As for car commercials on Mexican TV, everyone knows parts for Chevies are made in Mexico, no need to claim it's American or North American. Jack Peacock "Soy un gringo de El Norte" ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:33:39 -0500 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:33:38 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.57.2.36 X-Trace: sv3-YzLfsApCAIWQnA9PN2X7h0bcslE/KpBzLlFqDazOtahe7ZzUEzCqp4gB4dpnRt/HKq8rLA4Mh0aggDo!6kgOinSLLRuwuDo6tE7cNR5BBH8YlYvPiOJO7AJN9V/kKj5jtVRZBKtvBpMRp7/yzBZmGD3dtGe3!YA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150159 "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... > I mean, all the > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > happened in the USA? > How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? USAians are from "America", while those of the Great White North are "North Americans". A little something I learned from watching the same car commercials on US network TV and the CBC on satellite. Ask a Mexican and they say they are from their home state: Chihuahua, Oaxaca, Sonora, etc. (Easy to verify, just listen to a Spanish language radio station in the US that has call-ins.) Never ever heard anyone from Mexico claiming to be "American" except when asked by immigration. As for car commercials on Mexican TV, everyone knows parts for Chevies are made in Mexico, no need to claim it's American or North American. Jack Peacock "Soy un gringo de El Norte" ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1062452457 12.240.77.188 (Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150052 Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: > "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message > news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >> I mean, all the >> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >> happened in the USA? >> > How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1062452457 12.240.77.188 (Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:40:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150099 Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: > "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message > news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >> I mean, all the >> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >> happened in the USA? >> > How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:57:14 +0200 Reply-To: g@todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:pjgJuG2k30gUvi0tX7Eb0DaigUA= References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030830212853.1dba8e96.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Sep 2003 23:57:18 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1062453438 news.xs4all.nl 49100 80.127.198.243:4731 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!blue.qinip.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150166 On 31 Aug 2003 08:38:44 GMT, stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 06:38:50 +0200, Giles Todd wrote: > >On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:28:53 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith > > wrote: > > > >> When I was at school the Ford plant at Dagenham was often described > >> as part of the *British* motor industry, that never seemed quite right. > > > >How many Prefects, Anglias, Zephyrs, Zodiacs, Cortinas etc made it to > >the USA? > > Quite a few of the upright Anglias made it over there, they were a popular > base for hot-rods, espically for drag racers. Actually, now that you mention it, I remember seeing an Anglia (one of the ones with sharp edges, not the earlier model) in Sarnia, Ontario in 1971. Giles. ###### Message-ID: <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1062468361 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:06:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:06:01 GMT Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:06:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150185 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >jimmydevice wrote: > > > >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >>> Charles Richmond wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! > > > >>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? > > > > Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! > > Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. > Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jpdavis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 22:05:27 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150148 Charles Richmond wrote: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >> >>>jimmydevice wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>>> >>>>>Charles Richmond wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! >>> >>>>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? >>> >>> Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! >> >>Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. >> > > Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... > > -- > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ I wasn't following the thread closely, and it was late, Hic. ;-) Jim Davis. ###### From: sigvald@binet.is (Sigvaldi Eggertsson) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 2 Sep 2003 02:24:52 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: <70d8ab2e.0309020124.2552ef69@posting.google.com> References: < <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <20030831204511702+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.213.137.86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1062494694 20304 127.0.0.1 (2 Sep 2003 09:24:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Sep 2003 09:24:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150177 > > His son used the same style of naming when the naming of > America (OK, New Foundland) was done, naming it Vinland, a deliberate > use of confusing the fact that Vin in nominative in Norse can mean > both "grassy plain" and "wine"; but have distict grammatical > use that make them different in all other forms. Leif Ericsson > was also just a PHB in the expedition, others were the real > discoverers. V?nland (a comma over the "i") means "Wineland", the saga discusses the grapes etc. It has nothing to do with "grassy fields" (the meaning of the word "vin" in both Old norse and Icelandic. > They would have made it great in marketing a millennium later in > the land they found, but were unable to defend. > > -- mrr ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:38:24 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 43 Message-ID: <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1062502708 3097 80.177.7.220 (2 Sep 2003 11:38:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:38:28 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150134 wrote in message news:bj1tta$q73$7@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, > >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >> >jimmydevice wrote: > >> > > >> >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >> >>> Charles Richmond wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! > >> > > >> >>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? > >> > > >> > Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! > >> > >> Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. > >> > >Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... > > > Unix is so wordy. If that's a problem just set an environment variable called "NUL" to "/dev/null" and use that instead. cat bah_unix_phobia.ascii.ascii.ascii.dammit > $NUL In practice I find UNIX fairly concise, although I admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 02 Sep 2003 13:50:45 +0100 Organization: Frontier Internet Services Limited (Customer Usenet server) Lines: 19 Sender: ingvar@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net Message-ID: <87vfsbmk0q.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: shale.ftech.net 1062507045 1857 212.32.17.6 (2 Sep 2003 12:50:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ftech.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:50:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!proxad.net!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150193 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong>, > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > wrote in message news:bj1tta$q73$7@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > >> Unix is so wordy. > > > >If that's a problem just set an environment variable > >called "NUL" to "/dev/null" and use that instead. > > I bet that takes a lot, too. TOPS-10's way was .ASSIGN NUL FOO Yep, incredibly. FOO=/dev/null //Ingvar -- Warning: Pregnancy can cause birth from females ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:52:34 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 104 Message-ID: <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1062507155 9333 80.177.7.220 (2 Sep 2003 12:52:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:52:35 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150135 wrote in message news:bj2244$9j0$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong>, > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > wrote in message news:bj1tta$q73$7@bob.news.rcn.net... > >> In article <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net>, > >> Charles Richmond wrote: > >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> >> > >> >> In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, > >> >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >> >> >jimmydevice wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >> >> >>> Charles Richmond wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! > >> >> > > >> >> >>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? > >> >> > > >> >> > Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! > >> >> > >> >> Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. > >> >> > >> >Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... > >> > > >> Unix is so wordy. > > > >If that's a problem just set an environment variable > >called "NUL" to "/dev/null" and use that instead. > > I bet that takes a lot, too. TOPS-10's way was .ASSIGN NUL FOO Err, if "export NUL=/dev/null" is verbose god help us. In practice you can probably skip the 'export' bit. However as it would go into your .profile you'd only type it once so I think 'export' isn't too excessive. > hmmm...I wonder if that would work. All FOOs would go to NUL:. > > > >cat bah_unix_phobia.ascii.ascii.ascii.dammit > $NUL > > > >In practice I find UNIX fairly concise, > > It's terribly wordy. You are in danger of disagreeing with someone who has used UNIX daily for over a decade. :) Yeah, you're right, we should shorten the names of the commonly used utilities such as ls, mv, ln, cat, tar etc. Two letters is excessive, three is bloat. Another thing we could do is to flatten the 'standard' directory tree so everything is in root (/). Sod security and chroot jails, we need less verbiage. In practice if you insist on using long command names and/or long/deep directory trees most modern shells provide command completion. Makes life easy and allows you to use human readable names for things without taking a hit on typing. > > .. although I > >admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. > >If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at > >least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. > > Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the > -10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. > Even smart people can't identify white space. Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however that's not a real killer and there are versions out there that do accept standard '-' switches. > hmm...I wonder if depending on COMPIL from early on helped us > get our command standards act together. I think I blame ;-) > this mostly on our writers. They had a difficult time documenting > one set of commands. Having to explain a concept 10 different > ways probably had a lot to do with standardizing certain things. No kidding. I do agree that UNIX utilities have been shakey when it comes to standardisation, particularly when you use utilities from > 1 vendor. UNIX land has a few library functions to parse command lines, which has helped. X-Windows and it's toolkits have also provided pretty comprehensive options parsing (odd when you consider it's a GUI system). :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 03 Sep 03 09:41:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 124 Message-ID: References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> <1062526373.21503@saucer.planet.gong> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVarT00C4U/LAS37AQfi544V1w+vp+LqrKeyYAdtRvx2/WwaqVKqykJX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Sep 2003 10:49:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-173 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150207 In article <1062526373.21503@saucer.planet.gong>, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:bj256v$igv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong>, > >[SNIP] > >> Yea, I know. I still haven't decided if command completion >> is worth the extra CPU cycles. > >Hmm, on a VAX-11/7xx or a uVAX-II/III I think I might >say "no". However on modern machines you have cycles >to burn, Tsk. Tsk. That's no attitude for computes ;-). > .. it's just a question of taste : Do you prefer >them to be NOPs or doing something to make your life >easier ? :) It depends on whether I need the help. When I don't need it, I sure don't need the code or data in core taking up valuable space and cycles. For example, canned procedures have no call for all that curd. So why have it occupying resources that could be used for other things? > >> One of the side effects of command completion is that any >> typing of a ? can list all current possibilities. This is >> useful for figuring out the personality of a system. I'm not >> sure it's useful for working. > >It helps when you are tired. Sure. Everybody suffers from massive brain farts. > ..The shells I use don't >do anything that helpful though. One of them has a >"help" command though. Of course there is "man" if >I want to have a good old read. :) One of the feedbacks I got about VMS was that it was helpful _when asked_. Otherwise it stayed out of the way and let work get done. That is what an OS should do. I'll take a dumb OS anyday; an OS that thinks it knows what I want to do is, not only useless, but fucking dangerous. >> >> > .. although I >> >> >admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. >> >> >If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at >> >> >least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. >> >> >> >> Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the >> >> -10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. >> >> Even smart people can't identify white space. >> > >> >Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. >> >> Barf. I would have never picked - (which in my experience >> is a sign of subtraction). To me that says, "take this out". > >Some more modern apps use "+foo" to enable an option >and "-foo" to disable it... That's in addition to long >options such as "--disable-foo" and "--enable-foo". :) And how is a parser supposed to distinguish between a switch and a numerical argument? Unambiguity is why I wouldn't have picked a minus sign to call the switch parser. > >> >The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" >> >which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". >> >There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however >> >that's not a real killer and there are versions out there >> >that do accept standard '-' switches. >> >> Extensions, extensions. > >If you mean : UNIX has adapted to what people want on >the hardware they use : Yes, good thing IMO. Yup. A necessary condition for coninuting computing work. I'm not sure that having a repeating key to denote an extension to the original function is the best choice. I'd have to think about this one. > >[SNIP] > >> Well, TOPS-20 put the user command parser into the monitor as a >> JSYS. TOPS-10 had its command parser in an awful thing called > >VMS had a centralised command parser too. I used to be >in two minds about the pros & cons of this, There were a lot of pros and there were a lot of cons. > .. but I've >come to appreciate the simplicity (and subsequent >flexibility) of the UNIX approach. Does Unix provide a user mode package if s/he wanted to write a new user app? (I want to not talk about the point-click crap just right now.) > >[SNIP] > >> It was precisely because of the side effects of the SCAN and WILD mess, >> that JMF declared, "Managers shalt not program. If they do, nobody >> shalt use their code." > >There's sense talking. I don't think I know of a single piece of code written by a manager that was ever completed, where completed implies shippable and usable without constant headaches after ship. Note that I'm not talking about the positions of people we called project leaders. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:20:17 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030902182017.57fbb1e3.steveo@eircom.net> References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <87vfsbmk0q.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 02 Sep 2003 16:58:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0156.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1062521930 maya.euronet.nl 153 62.234.216.156:1488 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150240 On Tue, 02 Sep 03 12:21:41 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> In article <87vfsbmk0q.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net>, JC> Ingvar Mattsson wrote: JC> >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: JC> > JC> >> In article <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong>, JC> >> I bet that takes a lot, too. TOPS-10's way was .ASSIGN NUL FOO JC> > JC> >Yep, incredibly. JC> >FOO=/dev/null JC> JC> Ok, guys. Let's start taking this apart. JC> JC> What would FOO=/null/dev do? It assigns the string /null/dev to the environment variable FOO, at least that's what it does in a Bourne shell workalike. JC> Is the first /arg position independent? Will I get the same JC> results with /arg1/arg2 as I would with /arg2/arg1? Those /s are not separating arguments, they are (although the assignment doesn't care) directory path separators. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3F54E0AA.332C6B4E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1062520176 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:29:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:29:36 GMT Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:29:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150256 Michael Ash wrote: > > In article , > Giles Todd wrote: > > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:51:42 +0000 (UTC), Roger Johnstone > > wrote: > > > > > You need to brush up on your geography ;-) If they're claiming it's an > > > American car, they're right, even if it were made in Chile. I think it's > > > about time the USA got a Real Name, calling it America is like calling > > > Spain "Europe", it just leads to too much confusion. I mean, all the > > > other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth > > > happened in the USA? > > > > It's only the Americans who call Los Estados Unidos 'America'. Don't > > fall into their trap. > > I've travelled quite a bit and talked to a pretty wide variety of > people, and I have to say that in my experience this is wrong. Lots of > furriners call it 'America'. > Yeah, when Europeans speak of "the ugly American", they are definitely talking about someone from the US...and *not* just Monica... ;-) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F54E197.71AF0C8@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1062520414 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:33:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:33:34 GMT Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:33:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!130.59.10.21.MISMATCH!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150251 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, > >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >> >jimmydevice wrote: > >> > > >> >>Gene Wirchenko wrote: > >> >>> Charles Richmond wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>>>Adam Atkinson wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> You fool! It is the NULL key that you should be using then! > >> > > >> >>Wasn't that Ctrl Shift "P" on a tty? > >> > > >> > Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! > >> > >> Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. > >> > >Or "/dev/null", an ersatz device defined in UNIX... > > > Unix is so wordy. > Every "device" in UNIX should be represented by a "file" in the "/dev" directory. Actually, a single physical device might have several "device files"...each representing a different form of access. For instance, "/dev/mt0" might represent a QIC tape drive, and "/dev/nmt0" might represent the same QIC tape drive, but specify "no rewind" after the save to tape. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F54E43C.62ADAC6F@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1062521090 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:44:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:44:50 GMT Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:44:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150257 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > In practice I find UNIX fairly concise, although I > admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. > If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at > least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. > In my experience, many UNIX users know how to use the "find" command to find a file...but many do *not* know that "find" can also execute a command, like deleting all the "found" files. I find that "grep" and "diff" are also extremely helpful to those adept at using them. I don't know how I got along all those years...without the ability to "differenially" compare new and old versions of a source file, and find all the changes. Also, I often use "diff" to compare two directories of files and see which files are different. You can download the paper by Hunt and McIlroy...about the algorithm used for "diff", at McIlroy's Dartmouth web site: I had searched for this paper a long time before finally locating it. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F54E81B.F652F8F@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <87vfsbmk0q.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 74 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1062522082 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:01:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:01:22 GMT Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:01:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150253 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <87vfsbmk0q.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net>, > Ingvar Mattsson wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Yep, incredibly. > > FOO=/dev/null > > Ok, guys. Let's start taking this apart. > > What would FOO=/null/dev do? > > Is the first /arg position independent? Will I get the same > results with /arg1/arg2 as I would with /arg2/arg1? > The "/" in UNIX is used as a directory separator, *not* a command switch. Command switches are called "options" in UNIX and begin with a "-". For example: rm -i this.file would delete (remove) the file "this.file", but it would ask you "are you sure" first...that is what the "-i" option is for. The line "/dev/null" means "the file 'null' in the '/dev' directory". Directory paths beginning with "/" are called "absolute", because "/" represents the "root directory". Directory paths that start with a directory name are "relative" to what your current directory is. Often, the last name in a path is the name of a file, but *not* always. For example, typically I can have a text file named "bah.txt" in my home directory. So the "full path" of the file might be "/home/charles/bah.txt". But if I wanted to copy a file named "/etc/passwd" into my home directory, I could type: cp /etc/passwd /home/charles The "charles" is a directory that is the destination of the copy. "passwd" is the file being copied. If you use a file name or directory *without* any path information, then this refers to a file or directory inside your *current* directory. To find the current directory, type: pwd for "print current directory". How to "assign" device names depends on what "command shell" you are using. I have most of my experience in the c-shell ("csh"), but many Linux users use the bash shell ("bash"). In the c-shell, you type: setenv FOO /dev/null in the bash shell, you type: FOO=/dev/null FOO is what is called an "environment variable"...Mess-DOS has those too. You can find out all that are defined by typing: printenv -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:12:52 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 77 Message-ID: <1062526373.21503@saucer.planet.gong> References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1062526373 167 80.177.7.220 (2 Sep 2003 18:12:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:12:53 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150216 wrote in message news:bj256v$igv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong>, [SNIP] > Yea, I know. I still haven't decided if command completion > is worth the extra CPU cycles. Hmm, on a VAX-11/7xx or a uVAX-II/III I think I might say "no". However on modern machines you have cycles to burn, it's just a question of taste : Do you prefer them to be NOPs or doing something to make your life easier ? :) > One of the side effects of command completion is that any > typing of a ? can list all current possibilities. This is > useful for figuring out the personality of a system. I'm not > sure it's useful for working. It helps when you are tired. The shells I use don't do anything that helpful though. One of them has a "help" command though. Of course there is "man" if I want to have a good old read. :) > > > > >> > .. although I > >> >admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. > >> >If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at > >> >least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. > >> > >> Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the > >> -10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. > >> Even smart people can't identify white space. > > > >Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. > > Barf. I would have never picked - (which in my experience > is a sign of subtraction). To me that says, "take this out". Some more modern apps use "+foo" to enable an option and "-foo" to disable it... That's in addition to long options such as "--disable-foo" and "--enable-foo". :) > >The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" > >which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". > >There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however > >that's not a real killer and there are versions out there > >that do accept standard '-' switches. > > Extensions, extensions. If you mean : UNIX has adapted to what people want on the hardware they use : Yes, good thing IMO. [SNIP] > Well, TOPS-20 put the user command parser into the monitor as a > JSYS. TOPS-10 had its command parser in an awful thing called VMS had a centralised command parser too. I used to be in two minds about the pros & cons of this, but I've come to appreciate the simplicity (and subsequent flexibility) of the UNIX approach. [SNIP] > It was precisely because of the side effects of the SCAN and WILD mess, > that JMF declared, "Managers shalt not program. If they do, nobody > shalt use their code." There's sense talking. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:17:24 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 33 Message-ID: <1062526644.489998@saucer.planet.gong> References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <3F54E43C.62ADAC6F@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1062526645 29570 80.177.7.220 (2 Sep 2003 18:17:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:17:25 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150221 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message news:3F54E43C.62ADAC6F@ev1.net... > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > In practice I find UNIX fairly concise, although I > > admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. > > If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at > > least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. > > > In my experience, many UNIX users know how to use the > "find" command to find a file...but many do *not* know > that "find" can also execute a command, like deleting all > the "found" files. 'find' is a bit of a misnomer really : It's a generalised file-system traverser. I usually write little scripts for find to execute, a common one is applying 'sed' to a bunch of files. 'find' is useful for selectively adjusting ownership or priveledges on files too. :) [SNIP] > You can download the paper by Hunt and McIlroy...about the > algorithm used for "diff", at McIlroy's Dartmouth web site: Now that is a nugget, thanks. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 02 Sep 2003 20:04:56 +0100 Organization: Frontier Internet Services Limited (Customer Usenet server) Lines: 69 Sender: ingvar@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net Message-ID: <87isobm2p3.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <87vfsbmk0q.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: shale.ftech.net 1062529496 14007 212.32.17.6 (2 Sep 2003 19:04:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ftech.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:04:56 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!proxad.net!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150263 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <87vfsbmk0q.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net>, > Ingvar Mattsson wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > > >> In article <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong>, > >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >> > wrote in message > news:bj1tta$q73$7@bob.news.rcn.net... > >[SNIP] > >> >> Unix is so wordy. > >> > > >> >If that's a problem just set an environment variable > >> >called "NUL" to "/dev/null" and use that instead. > >> > >> I bet that takes a lot, too. TOPS-10's way was .ASSIGN NUL FOO > > > >Yep, incredibly. > >FOO=/dev/null > > Ok, guys. Let's start taking this apart. > > What would FOO=/null/dev do? > > Is the first /arg position independent? Will I get the same > results with /arg1/arg2 as I would with /arg2/arg1? As opposed to the DEC family of OSes (I am being slightly deliberately provokative here), "/" in unix denotes a directory separator, not an option. So "/dev/null" signifies: [dev]null Devices under unix actually live "inside" the file system, so one never see them, they are sometimes (if they're filesystem type devices) mounted somewhere in the directory structure and in genereal, there is just one of them too. > If not, then the second argument is a subset of the first and > should not be denoted by the _same_ character. At least that's > how DEC tried to do it. It used different characters to set > apart different aspects of a command line. We did the same thing > when we tried to define a standard full file specification. > > Double colon means nodename. > Colon mean devicename. > Square brackets means contents are a directory. > Angle brackets mean a flavor of protection code. (This is the > one that's an exception to the rule acroess DEC.) > Slash means a switch is coming. > Colons after a slash implies an argument to that switch. > Pluses and minuses told the program to add or subtract. I know. This is, however, not the way the unix file system works. As an example, I used to have two machines running, my old cranky box and my new less cranky box. I could access my source directory on the old cranky box via either: /cat/home/ingvar/src or /home/ingvar/catsrc Admittedly, the latter was a symbolic link (think a VMS logical, but less powerful; that's not quite right, but probably good enough) to the former and not properly a mount. //Ingvar -- Warning: Pregnancy can cause birth from females ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:14:35 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1062537275 52606 146.186.61.46 (2 Sep 2003 21:14:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:14:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150209 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:47:05 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, >William Hamblen wrote: >>The states have all the neat names: Alabama, Alaska, etc. >>Only the "new" names are dull: New Hampshire, etc. The US is the >>only country in the New World with "America" in its name. >But the continents already had the name: no country in Europe has >Europe in the name, avoids confusion. No country in Europe really goes back far enough that it wouldn't be confusing. OTOH, when we started using it, it didn't appear likely that there would be other countries here in the near future (if ever). hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:28:04 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1062538084 8782 146.186.61.46 (2 Sep 2003 21:28:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:28:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150203 In article <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >> And, is "New Zealand" just a place holder name until you all come also >> come up with something original? >And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* >Zealand anyway??? Just after Wyeland, I believe :) >> Anyway, I'm from Texas ... a very much uniquely named place. >"States' rights" are being eroded at such a rapid rate these days...it's >a wonder that there is anything left up to the individual states. George >W. was made President because the *federal* Supreme Court interfered in >the election in Florida, going against precidences long established...that >the court will stay out of such things. Err, no. The appointment of electors is a federal function performed by the states (one of two grants of federal power to states, contrary to the "none" taught in high school civics classes). And the court's ruling was that the courts had to get out of it . . . (and it didn't make a difference anyway; if the florida "recount" had continued going on in defiance of the law, he still would have won). >That's what happens when you >get a majority of Republican nominated judges on the court...and the >vote for the decision of the court was straight along the party lines. We hear that a lot, but it just plain isn't true. The relevant vote (that the recount as conducted was in violation of the law) was 7-2, with the 2.5 conservatives, 2.5 classic liberals, and 2 of the 4 liberals voting that way. The less important vote, which was indeed 5-4, was about whether or not the process had to be stopped immediately. They were approximately 30 hours short of the deadline in any event, and while it is not reasonable to believe that a method of counting, including judicial review [the fatal flaw], could be designed and completed during that time [including the review], I did agree with the minority that they should have been allowed to try (with the order to be done by that time hanging over their heads). I'm usually dead on in predicting court votes, but I was wrong on both of theses. I would have predicted the 5-4 vote in the first one (the 2.5 conservatives voting for the result the Republicans wanted, the 4 liberals for the Democrats, and Scalia, Thomas, and maybe Kennedy voting it illegal because the law said so), and 3-6 for the second (with Scalia and Thomas joining the liberals). I still need to fully read all nine opinions. Any month now :) >> So the generic sounding "The United States of America" has significance to us, >> and a proper name for our federal government might seem to diminish >the individual >> powers of the states. (Or maybe they just never got around to it...) >"E Pluribus Unum"..."one out of many". IMHO the states more resemble >squabbling siblings rather than "united states"... The Untied States of America . . . :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:08:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.159.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1062547729 216.80.159.200 (Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:08:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:08:49 EDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150265 On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:28:04 +0000 (UTC), hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >I'm usually dead on in predicting court votes, but I was wrong on both >of theses. I would have predicted the 5-4 vote in the first one (the >2.5 conservatives voting for the result the Republicans wanted, the 4 >liberals for the Democrats, and Scalia, Thomas, and maybe Kennedy voting >it illegal because the law said so), and 3-6 for the second (with Scalia >and Thomas joining the liberals). The problem the Democratic Party really has is that it ran an exceptionally poor candidate for President. It Albert Gore Jr. had won the election in Tennessee, his home state, he would be president. As it was the vote in Tennessee wasn't even close. It takes a remarkably poor showing for a presidential candidate to lose his home state. Engineering Gore's nomination was the last poke in the eye Clinton gave the Democratic party. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.86.107.238 From: Colin Campbell Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> Lines: 18 User-Agent: KNode/0.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:14:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.70.95.207 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1062548064 24.70.95.207 (Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:14:24 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:14:24 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150245 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > jpdavis wrote: >>Charles Richmond wrote: >>I wasn't following the thread closely, and it was late, Hic. >>;-) > > Haec, hoc. > Haec, hoc, it's off to work we goc? Colin -- "I can be changed by what happens to me. I refuse to be reduced by it." Maya Angelou, poet (1928 -) ###### From: Brian Boutel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <3F54E43C.62ADAC6F@ev1.net> <1062526644.489998@saucer.planet.gong> In-Reply-To: <1062526644.489998@saucer.planet.gong> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:59:16 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.144.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1062550759 203.96.144.148 (Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:59:19 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:59:19 NZST Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150213 Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Charles Richmond" wrote in message > news:3F54E43C.62ADAC6F@ev1.net... > > >>You can download the paper by Hunt and McIlroy...about the >>algorithm used for "diff", at McIlroy's Dartmouth web site: > > > Now that is a nugget, thanks. :) > It is, however, the original diff algorithm, which is interesting, but mostly less efficient than the Myers alforithm used by Gnu diff. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1062550957 12.240.77.188 (Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:02:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:02:37 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:02:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150201 Approximately 9/2/03 17:08, William Hamblen uttered for posterity: > On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:28:04 +0000 (UTC), hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu > (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > >>I'm usually dead on in predicting court votes, but I was wrong on both >>of theses. I would have predicted the 5-4 vote in the first one (the >>2.5 conservatives voting for the result the Republicans wanted, the 4 >>liberals for the Democrats, and Scalia, Thomas, and maybe Kennedy voting >>it illegal because the law said so), and 3-6 for the second (with Scalia >>and Thomas joining the liberals). > > The problem the Democratic Party really has is that it ran an > exceptionally poor candidate for President. It Albert Gore Jr. had > won the election in Tennessee, his home state, he would be president. > As it was the vote in Tennessee wasn't even close. It takes a > remarkably poor showing for a presidential candidate to lose his home > state. Engineering Gore's nomination was the last poke in the eye > Clinton gave the Democratic party. > Not that I have any idea why politics is on-topic for this group, but I will bet you that if Bill Clinton ever poked anything, you can be sure it was not in the eye.... ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:45:14 -0500 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:44:30 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.57.2.36 X-Trace: sv3-KchssnvmUMP4YbYxouzEtq4eZyNZ21b7v86dqgyERZnOXQvKpykQdyd/YnFnUABX2Zjm2JV1JoPmjkC!tXy+ec/1GAfGpH9dsEmRh9eXAWZRcTviJ7LX9UCn/kVB5+sLTZsf2L39ZUjPm4xyij0Z0HkRiN6K!xw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150244 "William Hamblen" wrote in message news:sqbalvsai1c157se3iel3laqcm2obcuual@4ax.com... > Engineering Gore's nomination was the last poke in the eye > Clinton gave the Democratic party. > I consider it a very shrewd political move. Bubba gambled that W would be a weak president (following in his father's footsteps) and would be ruined by the recession Clinton knew was on the way in. 2004 would be ideal for Hillary to run. If not for the wildcard of a war thrown into the equation it likely would have worked. Just look at the current crop of Democrat wannabes, most people can't even name one of them. Hillary would have no significant opposition in the primaries. Jack Peacock ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 04 Sep 03 10:30:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb9ogx03mUn2Axc7p3g4VRTAt1T2Fv6l/8H2OyL1HhIzmsnvfpY/wko X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 11:38:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150278 In article , Colin Campbell wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article , >> jpdavis wrote: >>>Charles Richmond wrote: > >>>I wasn't following the thread closely, and it was late, Hic. >>>;-) >> >> Haec, hoc. >> > >Haec, hoc, it's off to work we goc? As long as we goc and not gnu. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 04 Sep 03 10:37:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYE78XTy0iBwNQI4pdWlF/+gAR/X67xHhlIgKZrbV29+AIPHgeAVi04 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 11:45:20 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150283 In article , "Jack Peacock" wrote: >"William Hamblen" wrote in message >news:sqbalvsai1c157se3iel3laqcm2obcuual@4ax.com... >> Engineering Gore's nomination was the last poke in the eye >> Clinton gave the Democratic party. >> >I consider it a very shrewd political move. Bubba >gambled that W would be a weak president (following in >his father's footsteps) and would be ruined by >the recession Clinton knew was on the way in. Ah, you noticed that? > .. 2004 would be ideal for >Hillary to run. If not for the wildcard of a war thrown into the equation >it likely would have worked. Just look at the current crop of Democrat >wannabes, most people can't even name one of them. People never can before Labor Day. Even those of us who live in New England (and are up to our asses in candidates) can't name them. I keep forgetting the name of the guy from Vermont. > .. Hillary would have no >significant opposition in the primaries. Well, she's been trying to "prove" that the Constitution was never violated by Billy by saying it over and over and over and over. What's neat about this one is 1. Say it often enough and it becomes true and, 2. It's a red herring that's getting smoked with a mirror. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 04 Sep 03 10:38:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaLP6FjBhgAFAcff8MvhQ1+vnCzvziUPZelX8lYKHzHEbU5xnC/IB8U X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 11:46:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150286 In article , Peter wrote: >Sun, 31 Aug 2003 at 07:10 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >> Larry__Weiss wrote: >>> >>> And, is "New Zealand" just a place holder name until you all come also >>> come up with something original? >>> >> And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* >> Zealand anyway??? > >In The Netherlands :) Then it was mapped to Michigan. I was born in Zeeland Hospital (in the USA). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 04 Sep 03 10:43:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb+ePuJ/u7D3P5UPX1EKZMAwMjtN64lH+d6vyulKX4wa/2gwei39aIO X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 11:50:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150279 In article , westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: >Charles Richmond writes: > >> Spider Monkey wrote: >> > >> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> > The scary part is that Levi jeans MADE the 'Made in USA' stickers in >> > the USA while the jeans were produced in another country....in their >> > 'finishing plant' here in San Antonio, they attached the 'Made in USA' >> > sticker to their pants therefore completing the letter of the rule in >> > that they were 'made' in the states....and had it apply to the label >> > at the very least for legal protection. >> > >> Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, > >Really? Where did you hear that? I believe engines are U.S.-made, for >example. And it doesn't make sense to ship fenders, glass, etc. across >the Pacific. Ford Glass was a major supplier to Nissan last I knew... I wish all parts did come from Japan. My first Honda had been assembled in Japan. The windshield wipers, not only worked well[1], but lasted a very long time. [1] There are two thing in my life of cars that never work well: 1. the car heater doesn't heat the side of the car where I'm sitting and 2. windshield wipers always leave a blurry trail exactly where I'm looking out of the window. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Mariani 'Darkpand' Dario" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:31:04 +0200 Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <20030817083455.21c0a6d1.steveo@eircom.net> <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip179-1-6.dialup.edisontel.com (62.94.1.180) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1062621837 16538723 62.94.1.180 (16 [146581]) X-Orig-Path: 192.168.0.2!nobody User-Agent: Pan/0.13.4 (She had eyes like strange sins.) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!ip179-1-6.dialup.edisontel.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150299 On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:40:32 -0800, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > Wasn't this around the time they were fiddling with things like the DCTV > and the CD32? The minds of the top brass were already pretty addled (or > their plans to destroy the company were well under way, depending on the > state of your liver) Well, the CDTV was an a500 boxed like a cd player. It was a good idea, a multimedia platform like the CD-I. The Amiga CD32 wasn't a educational/multimedia thing like CDTV, but a games console. It was an A1200 with an added chip (Akiko, i can't remember exactly its function, but was a graphic accelerator) and a 1x (2x?) cdrom. With the expansion slots and other ports, you could add an external floppy, a keyboard, a mouse (obvious), an mpeg decompression card (for videocd), or some upgrade kits (i remember a 68030+fpu+ram+2 1/2" hd, all fit _inside_ the expansion slot). I have one, and i like it. It could be a great console, if Commodore stayed healty. Almost all the games on it are only a copy of the a1200 (or sometimes a500) game on cd, like International Karate +, an a500 game (a 176kb iso). Sometimes with a big intro and cd music. A couple are new, specifically programmed for cd32. -- Mariani "Darkpand" Dario darkpand@libero.it IAFo #126 ICQ# 49365960 "L'uomo e' tanto meno se' stesso quanto piu' parla in persona propria: dategli una maschera e vi dira' la verita'" -- Oscar Wilde ###### From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 03 Sep 2003 17:04:57 -0400 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 41 Sender: shw5@cornell.invalid (on ralph.graphics.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ralph.graphics.cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1062623099 16945 128.84.247.95 (3 Sep 2003 21:04:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Sep 2003 21:04:59 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150321 Charles Richmond writes: > Spider Monkey wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > The scary part is that Levi jeans MADE the 'Made in USA' stickers in > > the USA while the jeans were produced in another country....in their > > 'finishing plant' here in San Antonio, they attached the 'Made in USA' > > sticker to their pants therefore completing the letter of the rule in > > that they were 'made' in the states....and had it apply to the label > > at the very least for legal protection. > > > Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, Really? Where did you hear that? I believe engines are U.S.-made, for example. And it doesn't make sense to ship fenders, glass, etc. across the Pacific. Ford Glass was a major supplier to Nissan last I knew... > but the > Accords are "assembled" in the USA. Or does that make it a > Japanese car, when the Ford Tempo is probably assembled in > Mexico, The Tempo hasn't been assembled anywhere for eight or nine years. > and *claims* to be an American car??? > > IMHO the Levi jeans should at least say "assembled in USA"... > and *not* made in USA. Or they could say "sticker applied > in the USA"... ;-) > > -- > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ -- -Stephen H. Westin Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors. ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:16:48 -0700 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> Reply-To: jstewart@jkmicro.com Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:18:22 -0500 (CDT) NNTP-Posting-Host: !\7M$1k-XnMK;3PA9`87@;oar (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150270 Stephen H. Westin wrote: > Charles Richmond writes: > > >>Spider Monkey wrote: >> >>> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >>> >>>The scary part is that Levi jeans MADE the 'Made in USA' stickers in >>>the USA while the jeans were produced in another country....in their >>>'finishing plant' here in San Antonio, they attached the 'Made in USA' >>>sticker to their pants therefore completing the letter of the rule in >>>that they were 'made' in the states....and had it apply to the label >>>at the very least for legal protection. >>> >> >>Most all of the Honda Accord parts come from Japan, > > > Really? Where did you hear that? I believe engines are U.S.-made, for > example. And it doesn't make sense to ship fenders, glass, etc. across > the Pacific. Ford Glass was a major supplier to Nissan last I knew... I just bought a new passenger-side rear view mirror for my wife's Accord (don't ask why). I was given the choice of US made for $97 or Japanese made for $142. I chose US made. ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:46:52 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.193.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1062665432 129.142.193.202 (Thu, 04 Sep 2003 10:50:32 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 10:50:32 CEST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150275 > >>>the USA while the jeans were produced in another country....in their > >>>'finishing plant' here in San Antonio, they attached the 'Made in USA' > >>>sticker to their pants therefore completing the letter of the rule in > >>>that they were 'made' in the states....and had it apply to the label > >>>at the very least for legal protection. A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". Nico ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <6elelvodrfs0tmmjnv2o05bslgtpkr7epo@4ax.com> References: <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:17:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1062688629 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:17:09 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:17:09 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150267 On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:14:35 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers, hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article , >Brian Inglis wrote: >>On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:47:05 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, >>William Hamblen wrote: > >>>The states have all the neat names: Alabama, Alaska, etc. >>>Only the "new" names are dull: New Hampshire, etc. The US is the >>>only country in the New World with "America" in its name. > >>But the continents already had the name: no country in Europe has >>Europe in the name, avoids confusion. > >No country in Europe really goes back far enough that it wouldn't be >confusing. OTOH, when we started using it, it didn't appear likely that >there would be other countries here in the near future (if ever). Eleventh century is not far enough? -- when the Holy Roman Empire lost cohesion and nation states started appearing. Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, British colonies all existed, some with their own independence movements, crushed harshly by the monarchies when they saw what happened with the US. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 04 Sep 2003 11:28:10 -0400 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 15 Sender: shw5@cornell.invalid (on ralph.graphics.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net> <6elelvodrfs0tmmjnv2o05bslgtpkr7epo@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ralph.graphics.cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1062689291 13476 128.84.247.95 (4 Sep 2003 15:28:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 15:28:11 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!artemis.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150318 Brian Inglis writes: > Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, British colonies all existed, > some with their own independence movements, crushed harshly by > the monarchies when they saw what happened with the US. You forgot Belgian (e.g. Congo), Italian (Libya & Ethiopia), and German :). -- -Stephen H. Westin Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors. ###### Message-ID: <3F577AB6.D5B4BA68@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1062690687 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:51:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:51:27 GMT Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:51:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150347 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Well, she's been trying to "prove" that the Constitution was never > violated by Billy by saying it over and over and over and over. > What's neat about this one is 1. Say it often enough and it becomes > true and, 2. It's a red herring that's getting smoked with a mirror. > What exactly did Bill Clinton do that violated the constitution??? I think that the "Patriot Act", both one and two, come much closer to violating the Constitution that President Clinton. And what about that gestapo guy who runs the "justice" department...what a fascist he is!!! He could *not* get elected to the senate...so he got Uncle George to give him a fat federal job. And how about all the money that the Republican congress wasted investigating (and dogging) Bill Clinton all those years. What about the money wasted on the Impeachment trial...when the Republican jackasses *knew* they did *not* have the votes to succeed. If getting a blow job is voilating the constitution...then I suspect that most here in are in real trouble... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:29:09 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <6elelvodrfs0tmmjnv2o05bslgtpkr7epo@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1062692949 37750 146.186.61.46 (4 Sep 2003 16:29:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:29:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150289 In article <6elelvodrfs0tmmjnv2o05bslgtpkr7epo@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote: >On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:14:35 +0000 (UTC) in >alt.folklore.computers, hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. >Hawkins) wrote: >>>But the continents already had the name: no country in Europe has >>>Europe in the name, avoids confusion. >>No country in Europe really goes back far enough that it wouldn't be >>confusing. OTOH, when we started using it, it didn't appear likely that >>there would be other countries here in the near future (if ever). >Eleventh century is not far enough? -- when the Holy Roman Empire >lost cohesion and nation states started appearing. But "Europe/Europa/etc." was already in widespread usage at the time. >Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, British colonies all existed, >some with their own independence movements, crushed harshly by >the monarchies when they saw what happened with the US. I may be mistaken, but I don't think any of them were in a position to break free (especially after we succeeded) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:32:11 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1062693131 37750 146.186.61.46 (4 Sep 2003 16:32:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:32:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150298 In article , Colin Campbell wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article , >> jpdavis wrote: >> Haec, hoc. >Haec, hoc, it's off to work we goc? naw, I'm already there. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:36:24 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <3F54E43C.62ADAC6F@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1062693384 37750 146.186.61.46 (4 Sep 2003 16:36:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:36:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in.superfeed.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150292 In article <3F54E43C.62ADAC6F@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Rupert Pigott wrote: >I find that "grep" and "diff" are also extremely helpful >to those adept at using them. Oh, yes. When I got stranded for a couple of days under a deadline for my dissertation, I only had an old copy electronically. diff let me edit that and patch the changes to the current copy on the main computer . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 05 Sep 03 10:45:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F577AB6.D5B4BA68@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVapkjXVjxU82KGo8GAzluybSwNFizrhkgyXYDN9+qVYz1EZeq8C539F X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 2003 11:53:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-96 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150387 In article <3F577AB6.D5B4BA68@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >If getting a blow job is voilating the constitution... Getting a blow job wasn't the problem. It's where he got the blow job and what he did when he had to dump her that was the problem. It was lying under oath that was the problem. It was a blase attitude about his job that was the problem. > ..then I >suspect that most here in are in real trouble... I suspect that most of you were not in a position of authority that flaunted national security with impunity. Whenever these two had choice of right and wrong, with right being the easiest, most logical, and least disruptive choice, they picked wrong. They went out of their way to pick wrong. I still don't understand how they found the time to do so much of it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 05 Sep 03 10:46:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaBsU6mnZXe8g8FMU/sQfyX3C1RFiXCrWyFJ1ZsIwdsZhaVlIzVh2Xc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 2003 11:55:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-96 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150390 In article , jpdavis wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> In article , >> Colin Campbell wrote: >> >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>>In article , >>>> jpdavis wrote: >>>> >>>>>Charles Richmond wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>>I wasn't following the thread closely, and it was late, Hic. >>>>>;-) >>>> >>>>Haec, hoc. >>>> >>> >>>Haec, hoc, it's off to work we goc? >> >> >> As long as we goc and not gnu. >That was hic, as in a nice cold adult beverage, or three, Hic! I know. I had a flashback to my 9th grade Latin class. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 05 Sep 03 10:50:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3f55506d.1360336@news.ocis.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaRwA0qQKAY/fWWY70OCMU7Fpr0A3xsNjDtE3fthvECvDKiBVZ8jr7R X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 2003 11:58:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-96 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150389 In article <3f55506d.1360336@news.ocis.net>, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >[snip] > >>> Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! >> >>Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. > > In MTS (Michigan Terminal System), the corresponding term was the >pseudo-device name "*DUMMY*". We were constrained to three characters of SIXBIT. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 04 Sep 2003 15:46:47 -0400 Organization: Cornell University Lines: 14 Sender: shw5@cornell.invalid (on ralph.graphics.cornell.edu) Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> NNTP-Posting-Host: ralph.graphics.cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news01.cit.cornell.edu 1062704808 20884 128.84.247.95 (4 Sep 2003 19:46:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news01.cit.cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Sep 2003 19:46:48 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!artemis.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150432 mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) writes: > Idly wondering where the ic.ac.uk domain is for. > > Regards. Mel. At a guess, Imperial College (London), ACademic, United Kingdom. -- -Stephen H. Westin Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:02:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1062723726 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:02:06 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:02:06 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150469 On 04 Sep 2003 15:46:47 -0400 in alt.folklore.computers, westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote: >mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) writes: > > > >> Idly wondering where the ic.ac.uk domain is for. >> >> Regards. Mel. > >At a guess, Imperial College (London), ACademic, United Kingdom. Isn't wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk on everyone fingertips here (a.f.c)? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.83.56.193 From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net Message-ID: <3f55506d.1360336@news.ocis.net> References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <873cfzx23a.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <1458.359T1650T13863850@lr.net> <1833.367T1619T11204596@kltpzyxm.invalid> <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 22 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:45:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1062729942 24.69.255.206 (Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:45:42 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 20:45:42 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150366 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net>, > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: [snip] >> Not NUL, NULL as in an unknown value! > >Or NUL:, an ersatz device defined in TOPS-10. In MTS (Michigan Terminal System), the corresponding term was the pseudo-device name "*DUMMY*". Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 06:46:45 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030905064645.3909b092.steveo@eircom.net> References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 05 Sep 2003 05:22:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0977.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1062739353 willi.euronet.nl 34894 62.234.211.214:1057 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150418 On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:02:06 GMT Brian Inglis wrote: BI> Isn't wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk on everyone fingertips here (a.f.c)? src.doc.ic.ac.uk was for a long time. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: ekj@ekj.vestdata.no Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:19:00 +0200 Organization: 1&1 Internet AG Lines: 33 Sender: ekj@stundenspater.localdomain Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p50872e39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Trace: online.de 1062749942 12469 80.135.46.57 (5 Sep 2003 08:19:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@einsundeins.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:19:02 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!feed.news.schlund.de!schlund.de!news.online.de!p50872E39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de!ekj Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150412 On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Nico de Jong wrote: > A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The > subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in > south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they > renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". Sounds like a urban myth. Do you have any actual references to this ? From what I know about scandinawian law, there's not a chanse in hell that renaming a village in south-america "Sweden" would make ANY difference whatsoever, furthermore they'd have to name it "Sverige", not "Sweden", since that is the local form. I can't imagine any court that would not find such a marketing intended to mislead. Misleading advertising is frowned upon even if it should happen to be factually correct in some contrived sense. Example: Recently there was a marketing campaign in the newspapers (norway and sweden) where the maker of some electric heater had, among other claims, the claim that the oven was "100% efficient, converts all the electricity into heat, unlike typical oil-ovens that waste 20% of the energy or more in hot exhausts" While factually correct, the claim was nevertheless found to be not only misleading, but intended to mislead, because *all* electric heaters are by necessity 100% efficient (unless you go to great lengths to avoid this), and furthermore 100% efficiency is not particularily impressive given that for example a heat-pump can be said to be 300% efficient under the same criteria. Sincerely, Eivind Kjørstad ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Lines: 17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:22:43 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.193.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1062757548 129.142.193.202 (Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:25:48 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:25:48 CEST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!130.227.3.83.MISMATCH!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150379 skrev i en meddelelse news:Pine.LNX.4.50.0309051011570.2475-100000@stundenspater.localdomain... > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The > > subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in > > south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they > > renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". > > Sounds like a urban myth. Do you have any actual references to this ? Short answer : no, no actual reference. I've seen numerous matchboxes with "made in sweden", so that could be true (if it aint an urban legend). Nico ###### From: Ingvar Mattsson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 05 Sep 2003 11:55:20 +0100 Organization: Frontier Internet Services Limited (Customer Usenet server) Lines: 26 Sender: ingvar@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net Message-ID: <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: shale.ftech.net 1062759320 18208 212.32.17.6 (5 Sep 2003 10:55:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ftech.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:55:20 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150471 ekj@ekj.vestdata.no writes: [ Removed x-posting ] > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The > > subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in > > south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they > > renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". > > Sounds like a urban myth. Do you have any actual references to this ? > > From what I know about scandinawian law, there's not a chanse in hell > that renaming a village in south-america "Sweden" would make ANY > difference whatsoever, furthermore they'd have to name it "Sverige", not > "Sweden", since that is the local form. Though the Solstickan matches used to say "Made in Sweden". The possibly-UL I heard as a young'un was that there was a small village in Japan named Sweden, for puproses of manufacturing clone safety matches, most easily distinguished by the instruction "Drag stickan mot ladans plan" instead of "Drag stickan mot lådans plån". //Ingvar -- Q: What do you call a Discworld admin? A: Chelonius Monk ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:46:49 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1062776809 22388 146.186.61.46 (5 Sep 2003 15:46:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:46:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150388 In article , Mel Wilson wrote: >In article , >hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>In article , >>Colin Campbell wrote: >>>> Haec, hoc. >>>Haec, hoc, it's off to work we goc? >>naw, I'm already there. >Idly wondering where the ic.ac.uk domain is for. why, haven't you been reading the thread about computers and ac power? That's where they make the chips :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:48:06 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1062776886 22388 146.186.61.46 (5 Sep 2003 15:48:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:48:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150395 In article <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong>, Rupert Pigott wrote: > wrote in message news:bj2244$9j0$3@bob.news.rcn.net... >> It's terribly wordy. >Yeah, you're right, we should shorten the names of the >commonly used utilities such as ls, mv, ln, cat, tar etc. >Two letters is excessive, three is bloat. I have maintained for years that the manpages for rmdir and mkdir should acknowledge the length of the commands as a bug, as such commands should be two letters . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:00:52 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1062781252.906407@saucer.planet.gong> References: <21Q%a.169854$Ho3.20317@sccrnsc03> <20030905064645.3909b092.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1062781254 15379 80.177.7.220 (5 Sep 2003 17:00:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:00:54 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150404 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030905064645.3909b092.steveo@eircom.net... > On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:02:06 GMT > Brian Inglis wrote: > > > BI> Isn't wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk on everyone fingertips here (a.f.c)? > > src.doc.ic.ac.uk was for a long time. I use it check that my Inet connection was functional. It *used* to respond to pings but now I use wget. I don't think Sun get enough credit for their services to the community at large. SunSITEs are a fantastic resource, and a tremendous contribution at a time when they were needed. It's because of stuff like the SunSITEs that grudgingly *like* Sun *DESPITE* all the silly stuff they've done and continue to do. Come to think of it I *hesitate* to curse Sun while I'm only too happy to put the boot into any other vendor. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3F58CA5E.84F080FF@rsasecurity.com> From: Peter Trei X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en-securid,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 37 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:38:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.167.114.130 X-Trace: petpeeve.ziplink.net 1062783532 204.167.114.130 (Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:38:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:38:52 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!feedme.ziplink.net!petpeeve.ziplink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150398 Ingvar Mattsson wrote: > ekj@ekj.vestdata.no writes: > [ Removed x-posting ] > > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > > > A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The > > > subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in > > > south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they > > > renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". > > > > Sounds like a urban myth. Do you have any actual references to this ? > > > > From what I know about scandinawian law, there's not a chanse in hell > > that renaming a village in south-america "Sweden" would make ANY > > difference whatsoever, furthermore they'd have to name it "Sverige", not > > "Sweden", since that is the local form. > > Though the Solstickan matches used to say "Made in Sweden". The > possibly-UL I heard as a young'un was that there was a small village > in Japan named Sweden, for puproses of manufacturing clone safety > matches, most easily distinguished by the instruction "Drag stickan > mot ladans plan" instead of "Drag stickan mot lådans plån". > > //Ingvar This is a minor variation on the (false) 'there is a town in Japan named "Usa"' Urban Legend: http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp Peter Trei ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:54:42 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 36 Message-ID: <2liajb.me.ln@acer> References: <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1062800103 23383 193.71.197.12 (5 Sep 2003 22:15:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:15:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150444 In article <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net>, Ingvar Mattsson wrote: >ekj@ekj.vestdata.no writes: >[ Removed x-posting ] >> On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Nico de Jong wrote: >> >> > A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The >> > subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in >> > south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they >> > renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". [snip] >> Sounds like a urban myth. Do you have any actual references to this ? >> >> From what I know about scandinawian law, there's not a chanse in hell >> that renaming a village in south-america "Sweden" would make ANY >> difference whatsoever, furthermore they'd have to name it "Sverige", not >> "Sweden", since that is the local form. After the US stung back on some of these "made in Usa" scams they brought the issue to GATT, (pre WTO), and had all signatories accept that exported goods be labeled with "Made in" and the name of the relevant ISO3166 territory name; in English. Therefore lots of countries are still treaty-bound to display this on goods grossing borders. I.e. if Norway sells salmon to Sweden it is to be labelled with "Made in Norway". >Though the Solstickan matches used to say "Made in Sweden". The >possibly-UL I heard as a young'un was that there was a small village >in Japan named Sweden, for puproses of manufacturing clone safety >matches, most easily distinguished by the instruction "Drag stickan >mot ladans plan" instead of "Drag stickan mot lådans plån". This is a normal way of distinguising fake imports. -- mrr ###### From: Patrick Scheible Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 05 Sep 2003 13:42:21 -0700 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Message-ID: References: <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net> <6elelvodrfs0tmmjnv2o05bslgtpkr7epo@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Cache-Post-Path: yasure!unknown@cascadia.drizzle.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.222.21.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150401 westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) writes: > Brian Inglis writes: > > > > > Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, British colonies all existed, > > some with their own independence movements, crushed harshly by > > the monarchies when they saw what happened with the US. > > You forgot Belgian (e.g. Congo), Italian (Libya & Ethiopia), and > German :). Neither Belgium nor Italy existed as nation-states in 1776, let alone had colonies. -- Patrick ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> <3F58CA5E.84F080FF@rsasecurity.com> In-Reply-To: <3F58CA5E.84F080FF@rsasecurity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 40 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1062794581 12.240.77.188 (Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:43:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:43:01 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:43:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150373 Approximately 9/5/03 10:38, Peter Trei uttered for posterity: > > Ingvar Mattsson wrote: > >> ekj@ekj.vestdata.no writes: >> [ Removed x-posting ] >> > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Nico de Jong wrote: >> > >> > > A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The >> > > subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in >> > > south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they >> > > renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". >> > >> > Sounds like a urban myth. Do you have any actual references to this ? >> > >> > From what I know about scandinawian law, there's not a chanse in hell >> > that renaming a village in south-america "Sweden" would make ANY >> > difference whatsoever, furthermore they'd have to name it "Sverige", not >> > "Sweden", since that is the local form. >> >> Though the Solstickan matches used to say "Made in Sweden". The >> possibly-UL I heard as a young'un was that there was a small village >> in Japan named Sweden, for puproses of manufacturing clone safety >> matches, most easily distinguished by the instruction "Drag stickan >> mot ladans plan" instead of "Drag stickan mot lådans plån". >> >> //Ingvar > > This is a minor variation on the (false) 'there is a town in Japan > named "Usa"' Urban Legend: > http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/usa.asp The part of that legend that is *false* is that the town of Usa Japan was either created after WWII or that it was used to create Made In Usa labels. There *is* a town of Usa Japan that is just a bit older than the United States by a goodly number of centuries. ###### Message-ID: <3F59145D.76FC2784@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F577AB6.D5B4BA68@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1062795558 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:59:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:59:18 GMT Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:59:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150461 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3F577AB6.D5B4BA68@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >If getting a blow job is voilating the constitution... > > Getting a blow job wasn't the problem. It's where he got > the blow job and what he did when he had to dump her that > was the problem. It was lying under oath that was the problem. > It was a blase attitude about his job that was the problem. > The Republicans should *not* be asking President Clinton about his personal life. Other Presidents have done their share of sex in the oval office...using the oval orifice. > > > ..then I > >suspect that most here in are in real trouble... > > I suspect that most of you were not in a position of > authority that flaunted national security with impunity. > How does doing Monica "flaunt national security"??? I think it only shows bad taste in women... > > Whenever these two had choice of right and wrong, with > right being the easiest, most logical, and least disruptive > choice, they picked wrong. They went out of their way to > pick wrong. I still don't understand how they found the time > to do so much of it. > Specifics, BAH. What the hell are you referring to??? -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3f5147cf.34873123@news.ocis.net> <6elelvodrfs0tmmjnv2o05bslgtpkr7epo@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:51:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1062798689 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:51:29 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:51:29 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150476 On 05 Sep 2003 13:42:21 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Patrick Scheible wrote: >westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) writes: > >> Brian Inglis writes: >> >> >> >> > Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French, British colonies all existed, >> > some with their own independence movements, crushed harshly by >> > the monarchies when they saw what happened with the US. >> >> You forgot Belgian (e.g. Congo), Italian (Libya & Ethiopia), and >> German :). > >Neither Belgium nor Italy existed as nation-states in 1776, let alone >had colonies. nor Germany Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F577AB6.D5B4BA68@ev1.net> <3F59145D.76FC2784@ev1.net> From: Charlton Wilbur Message-ID: <8765k651v3.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 22:15:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.203.179.178 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc01.gnilink.net 1062800105 151.203.179.178 (Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:15:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:15:05 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150430 >>>>> "CR" == Charles Richmond writes: (quoting BAH) >> I suspect that most of you were not in a position of authority >> that flaunted national security with impunity. CR> How does doing Monica "flaunt national security"??? I think CR> it only shows bad taste in women... I have no public opinion on Bill & Monica, but the use of 'flaunt' for 'flout' is one of my pet peeves. Charlton -- cwilbur at chromatico dot net cwilbur at mac dot com ###### Message-ID: <3F594AB1.CEE5941C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F577AB6.D5B4BA68@ev1.net> <3F59145D.76FC2784@ev1.net> <8765k651v3.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1062809466 12.241.15.59 (Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:51:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:51:06 GMT Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:51:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150465 Charlton Wilbur wrote: > > >>>>> "CR" == Charles Richmond writes: > > (quoting BAH) > > >> I suspect that most of you were not in a position of authority > >> that flaunted national security with impunity. > > CR> How does doing Monica "flaunt national security"??? I think > CR> it only shows bad taste in women... > > I have no public opinion on Bill & Monica, but the use of 'flaunt' for > 'flout' is one of my pet peeves. > How are you with the misuse of "infer" and "imply"??? What about "moot" and "mute"??? Hell, I see people use "then" when they should use "than"...if they can't get that right, what hope is there??? -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Brian Boutel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> <2liajb.me.ln@acer> In-Reply-To: <2liajb.me.ln@acer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 63 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:02:04 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.144.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1062810124 203.96.144.148 (Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:02:04 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:02:04 NZST Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150406 Morten Reistad wrote: > In article <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net>, > Ingvar Mattsson wrote: > >>ekj@ekj.vestdata.no writes: >>[ Removed x-posting ] >> >>>On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Nico de Jong wrote: >>> >>> >>>>A few years ago there was a stink in europe along the same lines. The >>>>subject was matches and "made in sweden". They were physically made in >>>>south-america IIRC, complete with boxes etc. For that purpose, they >>>>renamed the village where the matches were made, to "Sweden". > > [snip] > >>>Sounds like a urban myth. Do you have any actual references to this ? >>> >>>From what I know about scandinawian law, there's not a chanse in hell >>>that renaming a village in south-america "Sweden" would make ANY >>>difference whatsoever, furthermore they'd have to name it "Sverige", not >>>"Sweden", since that is the local form. > > > After the US stung back on some of these "made in Usa" scams they > brought the issue to GATT, (pre WTO), and had all signatories accept > that exported goods be labeled with "Made in" and the name of the > relevant ISO3166 territory name; in English. > > Therefore lots of countries are still treaty-bound to display > this on goods grossing borders. I.e. if Norway sells salmon to > Sweden it is to be labelled with "Made in Norway". > > >>Though the Solstickan matches used to say "Made in Sweden". The >>possibly-UL I heard as a young'un was that there was a small village >>in Japan named Sweden, for puproses of manufacturing clone safety >>matches, most easily distinguished by the instruction "Drag stickan >>mot ladans plan" instead of "Drag stickan mot lådans plån". > > > This is a normal way of distinguising fake imports. > Back in the late 60s - early 70s, there was a popular brand of red wine in UK which claimed to be Austrian. Now Austria may have produced some red wine, but not as much per annum as the UK sales of this particular label alone. It turned out that it was mostly imported into Austria and re-exported shortly after. All that was legally required to be labelled as Austrian wine was to have been in a bonded warehouse in Austria for 24 hours. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM ###### From: Anton Sherwood Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:53:34 -0700 Organization: That would be telling. Message-ID: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, eo, fr, it MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150421 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > I weep every time I see the word IMPROVED. The last time was > when P&G decided to do something with Joy (dish washing liquid). > I'm still trying to find a good substitute that had all the > feature of the old formula. I seem to remember having that reaction to later Lava soap. Over the years I had about four Casio watches; each had some delightful feature that its successor lacked. -- Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/ ###### From: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Newsgroups: alt.books.larry-niven,rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:44:39 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The World, Public Access Internet, Brookline, MA Lines: 15 Sender: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) Message-ID: References: <20030819214627.2143d7fc.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com X-Trace: pcls4.std.com 1062866679 1890 199.172.62.241 (6 Sep 2003 16:44:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@TheWorld.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 16:44:39 +0000 (UTC) X-no-archive: no X-no-markup: yes Originator: pciszek@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!nntp.TheWorld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150485 In article , Anton Sherwood wrote: > >Over the years I had about four Casio watches; each >had some delightful feature that its successor lacked. With Timex watches, the earlier ones allowed you to set the year as well as the date; they then knew how to handle Leap Years without further intervention. Somehow, Timex forgot how to do this. -- pciszek at TheWorld dot com | "Mundus Vult Decipi" | ("The world wants to be deceived") | --James Branch Cabell ###### From: greymaus@yahoo.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 6 Sep 2003 17:31:54 GMT Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> <2liajb.me.ln@acer> NNTP-Posting-Host: p254-51.as1.nas.naas.eircom.net (159.134.254.51) X-Trace: news.uni-berlin.de 1062869514 18509511 159.134.254.51 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.8.0 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!p254-51.as1.nas.naas.eircom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150488 On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 13:02:04 +1200, Brian Boutel wrote: > in UK which claimed to be Austrian. Now Austria may have produced some > red wine, but not as much per annum as the UK sales of this particular > label alone. It turned out that it was mostly imported into Austria and > re-exported shortly after. All that was legally required to be labelled > as Austrian wine was to have been in a bonded warehouse in Austria for > 24 hours. Babanas are ripened in storehouses after being shippet green from where they are 'grown', so there exists Irish bananas, in the Irish Tax authorities eyes. -- greymaus as in, Mau'ddib ###### From: Robert Allison Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 6 Sep 2003 18:00:35 GMT Organization: Pine Ridge Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <3F56AEA0.5080005@jkmicro.com> <87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-473.newsdawg.com X-Hamster-Trace: pine-ridge-org 1062863138 4294377629 127.0.0.1 (1 fff7009d 2003.09.06 15:45:38) User-Agent: Xnews/06.02.16 Hamster-Fr/2.0.0.9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150486 Ingvar Mattsson wrote in news:87smnb1p47.fsf@gruk.tech.ensign.ftech.net: > Though the Solstickan matches used to say "Made in Sweden". I have in my hand an (empty) matchbox marked "Made in Sweden". The brand is "Sea-Dog", and the address on the back is "Markham, Ontario" (Canada). I hesitate to draw conclusions, since I am in Canada which is the home of the E. B. Eddy Match Company. Or used to be. We have lots of wood and stuff here, but 4 other matchboxes I happen to have here (I'm a pipe smoker, of course I have many matchboxes) are: - Benson & Hedges Matches from Eddy Match, Pembroke, Ontario (Canada) - Redbird Matches from Eddy Match, Product of USA - Touch Matches from L. Tanguay Inc of Sherbrooke, Quebec, Made in China - Blatter & Blatter Inc. (pipe makers), Eddy Match USA I blame Brian Mulroney and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) but I don't see how China and Sweden get into it. Robert -- Robert Allison Pine Ridge Systems www.pine-ridge.org ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 08 Sep 03 10:41:34 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZb30R6lBZh7X4Hc7fhK3bkQ21CppX49Ip/DTOWTkYlX7PVzqzNMvv/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 2003 11:50:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-41 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150589 In article <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews>, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article , >> Lon Stowell wrote: >>>Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: >>> >>>> "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message >>>> news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >>>>> I mean, all the >>>>> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >>>>> happened in the USA? >>>>> >>>> How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? >>> >>> Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". >> >>WTF! Huh? > > Hmm, I do not think you are a Canadian, Barb. Try something >like: > > "Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand." Oops. I'll try again. WTF! Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.83.56.193 From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net Message-ID: <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 04:02:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1062993776 24.69.255.206 (Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:02:56 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:02:56 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150576 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > Lon Stowell wrote: >>Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: >> >>> "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message >>> news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >>>> I mean, all the >>>> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >>>> happened in the USA? >>>> >>> How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and USAians? >> >> Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". > >WTF! Huh? Hmm, I do not think you are a Canadian, Barb. Try something like: "Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand." Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:53:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw2no 1063036438 24.71.223.147 (Mon, 08 Sep 2003 09:53:58 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 09:53:58 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in.superfeed.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw2no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150600 On Mon, 08 Sep 03 10:41:34 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews>, > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>>In article , >>> Lon Stowell wrote: >>>>Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: >>>> >>>>> "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message >>>>> news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >>>>>> I mean, all the >>>>>> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >>>>>> happened in the USA? >>>>>> >>>>> How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and >USAians? >>>> >>>> Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". >>> >>>WTF! Huh? >> >> Hmm, I do not think you are a Canadian, Barb. Try something >>like: >> >> "Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand." > >Oops. I'll try again. > >WTF! Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand. No, more like: What the hey? I'm sorry, could you please repeat that? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: < <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1063048159 12.240.77.188 (Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:09:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:09:19 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:09:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!yellow.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150624 Approximately 9/8/03 03:41, jmfbahciv@aol.com uttered for posterity: > In article <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews>, > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>>In article , >>> Lon Stowell wrote: >>>>Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: >>>> >>>>> "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message >>>>> news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >>>>>> I mean, all the >>>>>> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >>>>>> happened in the USA? >>>>>> >>>>> How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and > USAians? >>>> >>>> Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". >>> >>>WTF! Huh? >> >> Hmm, I do not think you are a Canadian, Barb. Try something >>like: >> >> "Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand." > > Oops. I'll try again. > > WTF! Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand. Nononono. Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand, eh. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 09 Sep 03 12:45:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZel3ZJPK1q+f7mdI6+iLlLpe3sYWM7GOipzhYmqfa86dFrqMOenM9i X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2003 13:53:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-xfer.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-59 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150668 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Mon, 08 Sep 03 10:41:34 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews>, >> genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>>In article , >>>> Lon Stowell wrote: >>>>>Approximately 9/1/03 13:33, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: >>>>> >>>>>> "Roger Johnstone" wrote in message >>>>>> news:20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz... >>>>>>> I mean, all the >>>>>>> other countries in the Americas came up with names, what on earth >>>>>>> happened in the USA? >>>>>>> >>>>>> How does a foreigner tell the difference between Canadians and >>USAians? >>>>> >>>>> Politeness. And occasional use of "eh". >>>> >>>>WTF! Huh? >>> >>> Hmm, I do not think you are a Canadian, Barb. Try something >>>like: >>> >>> "Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand." >> >>Oops. I'll try again. >> >>WTF! Eh? I am sorry, but I do not understand. > >No, more like: > >What the hey? I'm sorry, could you please repeat that? Farmers said that. And kids who said it got swatted because mothers knew that hay=hell in that context. I never understood why saying "WTH" was swearing since it was taking the devil's name in vain. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:11:23 +0200 From: Henrik Hansen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 22 Organization: TDC Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.249.199.25 X-Trace: 1063130202 dread16.news.tele.dk 32526 195.249.199.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@post.tele.dk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!130.59.10.21.MISMATCH!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150661 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Peter wrote: > >> Larry__Weiss wrote: > >> And considering "New Zealand", where the hell is the *original* > >> Zealand anyway??? > > > >In The Netherlands :) > > Then it was mapped to Michigan. I was born in Zeeland Hospital > (in the USA). Also the danish island "Sjælland" is spelled Zealand in english. Zealand/Sjælland is the island where Copenhagen/København (the capital) is located. In case you should ask "So, where the hell is Danish anyway", then it's just a sand dune south of Norway (and we do call it Denmark/Danmark). Btw. In Denmark, a Danish (the bread) is known as Wienerbrød (bread from Vienna). ###### Message-ID: <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1063178509 12.241.15.59 (Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:21:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:21:49 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:21:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150751 Henrik Hansen wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Btw. In Denmark, a Danish (the bread) is known as Wienerbrød (bread from > Vienna). > "A prophet has *no* honor in his own country..." -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F5EECF7.D14F167B@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1063178691 12.241.15.59 (Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:24:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:24:51 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:24:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150756 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Farmers said that. And kids who said it got swatted because > mothers knew that hay=hell in that context. I never understood > why saying "WTH" was swearing since it was taking the devil's > name in vain. > I understand that "what in the sam hill" really means "what in the damn hell"... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:48:39 +0200 From: Henrik Hansen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 16 Organization: TDC Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.249.210.81 X-Trace: 1063198513 dread11.news.tele.dk 54841 195.249.210.81:12354 X-Complaints-To: abuse@post.tele.dk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150714 Charles Richmond wrote: > Henrik Hansen wrote: > > Btw. In Denmark, a Danish (the bread) is known as Wienerbrød (bread from > > Vienna). > > > "A prophet has *no* honor in his own country..." That's so very true, but I don't know any danish prophet that has invented Wienerbrød. But that reminds me that, on behalf of the Danish Kingdom, I would like to officially apologize my (former) fellow countryman Bjarne Stroustrup for inventing C++. Dunno what happened here, danes are usually quite polite and nice. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:06:31 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1063202791 44760 146.186.61.46 (10 Sep 2003 14:06:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:06:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150726 In article <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk>, Henrik Hansen wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >> "A prophet has *no* honor in his own country..." >That's so very true, but I don't know any danish prophet that has >invented Wienerbrød. >But that reminds me that, on behalf of the Danish Kingdom, I would like >to officially apologize my (former) fellow countryman Bjarne Stroustrup >for inventing C++. Dunno what happened here, danes are usually quite >polite and nice. Hmm, is anyone from Nebraska around to apologize for the state being so flat? :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.83.56.193 From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net Message-ID: <3f5e892f.1148967@shawnews> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:34:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1063204485 24.69.255.206 (Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:34:45 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:34:45 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150707 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: [snip] >Farmers said that. And kids who said it got swatted because >mothers knew that hay=hell in that context. I never understood >why saying "WTH" was swearing since it was taking the devil's >name in vain. ^^^^ ITYM "residence". Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:43:49 +0100 Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063205044 1150 62.49.243.90 (10 Sep 2003 14:44:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:44:04 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150740 "Henrik Hansen" wrote in message news:3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk... > Charles Richmond wrote: > > Henrik Hansen wrote: > > > > Btw. In Denmark, a Danish (the bread) is known as Wienerbrød (bread from > > > Vienna). > > > > > "A prophet has *no* honor in his own country..." > > That's so very true, but I don't know any danish prophet that has > invented Wienerbrød. > > But that reminds me that, on behalf of the Danish Kingdom, I would like > to officially apologize my (former) fellow countryman Bjarne Stroustrup > for inventing C++. Dunno what happened here, danes are usually quite > polite and nice. I've almost forgiven him, but then I found out about the syntax for templates and that new style casting stuff. (Whats wrong[1] with macros.....) I've heard that there isn't an equivalent to "please" in Danish or least not one thats used as often as in English. By this I mean in a phrase such as "Please pass the butter" a Dane will skip the please which can make Danes sound slightly abrupt to a native English speaker. Can you confirm or deny this? [1] I know lots of original ways to abuse program style with macros, but that's another discussion -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: Kevin Handy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <867.368T2125T11794554ghira@mistral.co.uk> <3F4EF818.396F3D@ev1.net> <3f4f8343.2742454@news.ocis.net> <3f519c28.56468688@news.ocis.net> <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> <1062526373.21503@saucer.planet.gong> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 112 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:03:50 EDT Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:01:16 -0600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!fe01.atl2.webusenet.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150743 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>>>>>.. although I >>>>>>admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. >>>>>>If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at >>>>>>least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. >>>>> >>>>>Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the >>>>>-10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. >>>>>Even smart people can't identify white space. >>>> >>>>Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. >>> >>>Barf. I would have never picked - (which in my experience >>>is a sign of subtraction). To me that says, "take this out". >> >>Some more modern apps use "+foo" to enable an option >>and "-foo" to disable it... That's in addition to long >>options such as "--disable-foo" and "--enable-foo". :) > > > And how is a parser supposed to distinguish between a > switch and a numerical argument? Unambiguity is why > I wouldn't have picked a minus sign to call the switch > parser. > If the switch requires an arguement, it grabs the next arguement. If it starts with a dash. The next possible command will then follow that arguement. Or, if you want to just grab arguements, many programs have the switch '--', which means everything past here is program data, so stop parsing commands. > >>>>The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" >>>>which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". >>>>There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however >>>>that's not a real killer and there are versions out there >>>>that do accept standard '-' switches. >>> >>>Extensions, extensions. >> >>If you mean : UNIX has adapted to what people want on >>the hardware they use : Yes, good thing IMO. > > > Yup. A necessary condition for coninuting computing work. > I'm not sure that having a repeating key to denote an > extension to the original function is the best choice. > I'd have to think about this one. > Many things were tried, this is the one that stuck. It won by sticking around the longest, and getting used by the largest number of programmers. "Think of it as evolution in action". > >>[SNIP] >> >> >>>Well, TOPS-20 put the user command parser into the monitor as a >>>JSYS. TOPS-10 had its command parser in an awful thing called >> >>VMS had a centralised command parser too. I used to be >>in two minds about the pros & cons of this, > > > There were a lot of pros and there were a lot of cons. > > >>.. but I've >>come to appreciate the simplicity (and subsequent >>flexibility) of the UNIX approach. > > > Does Unix provide a user mode package if s/he wanted to write > a new user app? (I want to not talk about the point-click crap > just right now.) > Something like getopt, getopt_long, popt, etc? They all do similiar things, but the programmers interface is different between them, and some are more capable than others. This stuff is still evolving. >>[SNIP] >> >> >>>It was precisely because of the side effects of the SCAN and WILD mess, >>>that JMF declared, "Managers shalt not program. If they do, nobody >>>shalt use their code." >> >>There's sense talking. > > > I don't think I know of a single piece of code written by > a manager that was ever completed, where completed implies > shippable and usable without constant headaches after ship. > Note that I'm not talking about the positions of people we > called project leaders. > > /BAH > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 03 10:19:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 85 Message-ID: References: <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> <1062526373.21503@saucer.planet.gong> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb5SpGRtKBzQWNYu65qS/mH/J7LKeqgV/rERsb8RQv9SYb3I4hb5Gu7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2003 11:28:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150792 In article , Kevin Handy wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >> >>>>>>>.. although I >>>>>>>admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. >>>>>>>If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at >>>>>>>least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. >>>>>> >>>>>>Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the >>>>>>-10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. >>>>>>Even smart people can't identify white space. >>>>> >>>>>Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. >>>> >>>>Barf. I would have never picked - (which in my experience >>>>is a sign of subtraction). To me that says, "take this out". >>> >>>Some more modern apps use "+foo" to enable an option >>>and "-foo" to disable it... That's in addition to long >>>options such as "--disable-foo" and "--enable-foo". :) >> >> >> And how is a parser supposed to distinguish between a >> switch and a numerical argument? Unambiguity is why >> I wouldn't have picked a minus sign to call the switch >> parser. >> > >If the switch requires an arguement, it grabs the next >arguement. If it starts with a dash. The next possible >command will then follow that arguement. So the parser code can't be independent of the subsequent parsing code. There is an advantage of having the parsing code just do parsing and then pass an ordered argument list to the code that's going to use it. It also means that any defaults have to be set up in the parsing code which makes it completely un-reentryable (yech..what a word). > >Or, if you want to just grab arguements, many programs >have the switch '--', which means everything past here >is program data, so stop parsing commands. And then hands a mess off because, now, the handee has to have code that deals with parsing along with all the error detection and messaging that should be at the parsing level. This makes for lowseg code, not sharable code. > >> >>>>>The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" >>>>>which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". >>>>>There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however >>>>>that's not a real killer and there are versions out there >>>>>that do accept standard '-' switches. >>>> >>>>Extensions, extensions. >>> >>>If you mean : UNIX has adapted to what people want on >>>the hardware they use : Yes, good thing IMO. >> >> >> Yup. A necessary condition for coninuting computing work. >> I'm not sure that having a repeating key to denote an >> extension to the original function is the best choice. >> I'd have to think about this one. >> > >Many things were tried, this is the one that stuck. >It won by sticking around the longest, and getting used >by the largest number of programmers. "Think of it as >evolution in action". The term is called ad hoc, fly-by-night or something. Design goals should include extensibility. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 10 Sep 2003 18:39:42 GMT Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-191-13.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1063219182 news.dial.pipex.com 246 62.241.191.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150780 On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:06:31 +0000 (UTC), Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >In article <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk>, >Henrik Hansen wrote: >>Charles Richmond wrote: > > >>> "A prophet has *no* honor in his own country..." > >>That's so very true, but I don't know any danish prophet that has >>invented Wienerbrød. > >>But that reminds me that, on behalf of the Danish Kingdom, I would like >>to officially apologize my (former) fellow countryman Bjarne Stroustrup >>for inventing C++. Dunno what happened here, danes are usually quite >>polite and nice. > >Hmm, is anyone from Nebraska around to apologize for the state being so >flat? Dunno about Nebraska, but Kansas is flatter than a pancake - oficially! A team of researchers compared a 2cm wide sample of a well-cooked pancake with an East-West profile across Kansas from data from the US Geological Survey. The pancake measured a flatness of 0.957 (1 = perfectly flat) while Kanses measured 0.9997. Reported in "Annals of Improbable Research" in an article by Mark Fonstad, William Pugatch and Brandon Vogt. Anyone know anything about the "Annals of Improbable Research"? It sounds like something I should know about...some googling is required :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1063219757 12.240.77.188 (Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:49:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:49:17 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:49:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150773 Approximately 9/10/03 11:39, Stan Barr uttered for posterity: > > Dunno about Nebraska, but Kansas is flatter than a pancake - oficially! > A team of researchers compared a 2cm wide sample of a well-cooked pancake > with an East-West profile across Kansas from data from the US Geological > Survey. The pancake measured a flatness of 0.957 (1 = perfectly flat) > while Kanses measured 0.9997. Reported in "Annals of Improbable Research" > in an article by Mark Fonstad, William Pugatch and Brandon Vogt. Nebraska isn't that flat, it is just that there are very few people out west and northwest of Scottsbluff where it actually has surprising vertical relief. Not Colorado grade of course. It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight to Ogalalla. > > Anyone know anything about the "Annals of Improbable Research"? It sounds > like something I should know about...some googling is required :-) http://www.improb.com/ for information on the Ig Nobel Prizes and the Darwin Awards. ###### From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:05:05 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Robert Bonomi Consulting Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-167-94-122.chcgilgm.covad.net X-Trace: sun-news.laserlink.net 1063220705 18560 68.167.94.122 (10 Sep 2003 19:05:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@covad.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:05:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!ash.uu.net!sun-news.laserlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150810 In article , Stan Barr wrote: >On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:06:31 +0000 (UTC), Dr. Richard E. Hawkins > wrote: >>In article <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk>, >>Henrik Hansen wrote: >>>Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> >>>> "A prophet has *no* honor in his own country..." >> >>>That's so very true, but I don't know any danish prophet that has >>>invented Wienerbrød. >> >>>But that reminds me that, on behalf of the Danish Kingdom, I would like >>>to officially apologize my (former) fellow countryman Bjarne Stroustrup >>>for inventing C++. Dunno what happened here, danes are usually quite >>>polite and nice. >> >>Hmm, is anyone from Nebraska around to apologize for the state being so >>flat? > >Dunno about Nebraska, but Kansas is flatter than a pancake - oficially! >A team of researchers compared a 2cm wide sample of a well-cooked pancake >with an East-West profile across Kansas from data from the US Geological >Survey. The pancake measured a flatness of 0.957 (1 = perfectly flat) >while Kanses measured 0.9997. Reported in "Annals of Improbable Research" >in an article by Mark Fonstad, William Pugatch and Brandon Vogt. > >Anyone know anything about the "Annals of Improbable Research"? It sounds >like something I should know about...some googling is required :-) "Annals" is a split-off from the original, the "Journal of Irreproducible Results". The ownership of the Journal had changed hands, and there was a falling-out between the staff and the owners. Resulting in the _entire_ staff bolting to the new publication. It's a *MARVELOUS* parady/spoof/send-up of the highbrow academic journals. a few of the more memorable articles have included: "Memo to Moses from HEW" (even funnier than the Bill Cosby 'Noah' routine) "Maze-Learning Habits of Angels" "Definiton of a Darkbulb" ( a device that when powered on, _removes_ light ) "The Inheritance Pattern of Death" "National Geographic, the Doomsday Machine" (the danger of all those stockpiled magazines in attics, closets, garages, etc., and the ensuing shock-wave, should the supports collapse.) "A Probabalistic Formulation of Murphy Dynamics as Applied to the Analysis of Operational Research Problems" "A Drastic Cost-saving approach to Using Your Neighbor's Electron Microscope" "No-Fault Crime Insurance" ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler User-Agent: Gnus/5.090024 (Oort Gnus v0.24) Emacs/21.3 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:67uiWCg02swZrjXrBVg7WKxUCsM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:44:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.211.243.120 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net 1063226695 63.211.243.120 (Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:44:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:44:55 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150787 stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: > Anyone know anything about the "Annals of Improbable Research"? It > sounds like something I should know about...some googling is > required :-) there is mini-air mailing list (aka mini-Annuals of Improbable Research) ... and the web site "Hot A.I.R." http://www.improbable.com/ most recent mini-air Subject: mini-AIR Sept 2003 -- Breakfast similarity, Murphy and the Law PLEASE FORWARD/POST AS APPROPRIATE ================================================================ mini-Annals of Improbable Research ("mini-AIR") Issue Number 2003-09 September, 2003 ISSN 1076-500X Key words: improbable research, science humor, Ig Nobel, AIR, the ---------------------------------------------------------------- A free newsletter of tidbits too tiny to fit in the Annals of Improbable Research (AIR), the journal of inflated research and personalities ============================================================= -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:46:22 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1063226782 28892 146.186.61.46 (10 Sep 2003 20:46:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:46:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150781 In article , Stan Barr wrote: >On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:06:31 +0000 (UTC), Dr. Richard E. Hawkins > wrote: >>Hmm, is anyone from Nebraska around to apologize for the state being so >>flat? >Dunno about Nebraska, but Kansas is flatter than a pancake - oficially! >A team of researchers compared a 2cm wide sample of a well-cooked pancake >with an East-West profile across Kansas from data from the US Geological >Survey. The pancake measured a flatness of 0.957 (1 = perfectly flat) >while Kanses measured 0.9997. Reported in "Annals of Improbable Research" >in an article by Mark Fonstad, William Pugatch and Brandon Vogt. >Anyone know anything about the "Annals of Improbable Research"? It sounds >like something I should know about...some googling is required :-) Isn't that what the folks who used to run "The Journal of Irreproducible Results" formed after they quit en masse? [After the publication was sold] hawak -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3F5FFF48.2D75D398@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1063248916 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:55:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:55:16 GMT Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:55:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150835 Stan Barr wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Anyone know anything about the "Annals of Improbable Research"? It sounds > like something I should know about...some googling is required :-) > I do *not* know about that, but check into the Fortean Society. They investigate strange stuff... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 11 Sep 2003 05:04:02 GMT Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-190-219.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1063256642 news.dial.pipex.com 252 62.241.190.219 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150782 On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:49:17 GMT, Lon Stowell wrote: >Approximately 9/10/03 11:39, Stan Barr uttered for posterity: >> >> Anyone know anything about the "Annals of Improbable Research"? It sounds >> like something I should know about...some googling is required :-) > > http://www.improb.com/ for information on the Ig Nobel Prizes and > the Darwin Awards. Just found it, excellent stuff! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:16:57 +0100 Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <1063217653.798343@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063271819 16056 62.49.243.90 (11 Sep 2003 09:16:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:16:59 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150815 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message news:1063217653.798343@saucer.planet.gong... > "Peter Ibbotson" wrote in message > news:bjndbj$13u$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk... > > I've almost forgiven him, but then I found out about the syntax for > > templates and that new style casting stuff. (Whats wrong[1] with > > macros.....) > > Ah screw it : I *LIKE* the C++ style of casting. It allows > me to express *precisely* what I want to happen, the down > side is that it is more verbose. BUT on the upside it's much > easier to do a search for "static_cast...blah" than it is to > search for "(...)" in C... And let's face it : Casting quite > often causes 'issues' - or may well point towards design > 'issues'. I just don't like the verbosity (if I want verbose I'll use a different language), and while the new style does fix some stuff, I rather liked the old style of casting. I don't do enough C++ anymore to be bothered. I have a diatribe of stuff I could write about casts and C++ vs C but it's probably inaccurate and would take too long for me to write an accurate version. I'll save it for a session down a pub if the UK afcers ever bother to hold a meeting. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:03:32 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-419.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150822 In article , bonomi@host122.r- bonomi.com says... > "Definiton of a Darkbulb" ( a device that when powered on, _removes_ light ) Is that anything like a Dark Emitting Arsenide Diode? -- Keith ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:08:10 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 96 Message-ID: <1063282090.696383@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> <1062526373.21503@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063282091 28657 80.177.7.220 (11 Sep 2003 12:08:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:08:11 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150800 wrote in message news:bjpm9j$chj$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > Kevin Handy wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > > >> > >>>>>>>.. although I > >>>>>>>admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. > >>>>>>>If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at > >>>>>>>least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the > >>>>>>-10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. > >>>>>>Even smart people can't identify white space. > >>>>> > >>>>>Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. > >>>> > >>>>Barf. I would have never picked - (which in my experience > >>>>is a sign of subtraction). To me that says, "take this out". > >>> > >>>Some more modern apps use "+foo" to enable an option > >>>and "-foo" to disable it... That's in addition to long > >>>options such as "--disable-foo" and "--enable-foo". :) > >> > >> > >> And how is a parser supposed to distinguish between a > >> switch and a numerical argument? Unambiguity is why > >> I wouldn't have picked a minus sign to call the switch > >> parser. > >> > > > >If the switch requires an arguement, it grabs the next > >arguement. If it starts with a dash. The next possible > >command will then follow that arguement. > > So the parser code can't be independent of the subsequent > parsing code. There is an advantage of having the parsing > code just do parsing and then pass an ordered argument list > to the code that's going to use it. It also means that No advantage that I can see over a commonly used library linked into each app. Furthermore even if it's been pre- digested by some external entity, the arguments will still have to be *validated* by the app anyways. > any defaults have to be set up in the parsing code which makes > it completely un-reentryable (yech..what a word). > >Or, if you want to just grab arguements, many programs > >have the switch '--', which means everything past here > >is program data, so stop parsing commands. > > And then hands a mess off because, now, the handee has to have > code that deals with parsing along with all the error detection > and messaging that should be at the parsing level. This makes > for lowseg code, not sharable code. Err, not if you use a shared library. Also the point is a smidge on the moot side because we have more memory than sense in this age. > >>>>>The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" > >>>>>which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". > >>>>>There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however > >>>>>that's not a real killer and there are versions out there > >>>>>that do accept standard '-' switches. > >>>> > >>>>Extensions, extensions. > >>> > >>>If you mean : UNIX has adapted to what people want on > >>>the hardware they use : Yes, good thing IMO. > >> > >> > >> Yup. A necessary condition for coninuting computing work. > >> I'm not sure that having a repeating key to denote an > >> extension to the original function is the best choice. > >> I'd have to think about this one. > >> > > > >Many things were tried, this is the one that stuck. > >It won by sticking around the longest, and getting used > >by the largest number of programmers. "Think of it as > >evolution in action". > > > The term is called ad hoc, fly-by-night or something. Design > goals should include extensibility. It has been extended. Repeatedly, see "long arguments", appropriately named for this thread too. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:10:41 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1063282242.14350@saucer.planet.gong> References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <1063217653.798343@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063282242 8722 80.177.7.220 (11 Sep 2003 12:10:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:10:42 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150794 "Peter Ibbotson" wrote in message news:bjpeib$flo$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk... [SNIP] > I just don't like the verbosity (if I want verbose I'll use a different > language), and while the new style does fix some stuff, I rather liked the > old style of casting. I don't do enough C++ anymore to be bothered. I have a > diatribe of stuff I could write about casts and C++ vs C but it's probably > inaccurate and would take too long for me to write an accurate version. I'll > save it for a session down a pub if the UK afcers ever bother to hold a > meeting. LOL, you have a point. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:59:14 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Robert Bonomi Consulting Lines: 130 Message-ID: References: <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-167-94-122.chcgilgm.covad.net X-Trace: sun-news.laserlink.net 1063288754 21811 68.167.94.122 (11 Sep 2003 13:59:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@covad.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:59:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!nntp.inet.fi!inet.fi!ash.uu.net!sun-news.laserlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150814 In article , wrote: >In article , > Kevin Handy wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >>> >>>>>>>>.. although I >>>>>>>>admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. >>>>>>>>If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at >>>>>>>>least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the >>>>>>>-10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. >>>>>>>Even smart people can't identify white space. >>>>>> >>>>>>Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. >>>>> >>>>>Barf. I would have never picked - (which in my experience >>>>>is a sign of subtraction). To me that says, "take this out". >>>> >>>>Some more modern apps use "+foo" to enable an option >>>>and "-foo" to disable it... That's in addition to long >>>>options such as "--disable-foo" and "--enable-foo". :) >>> >>> >>> And how is a parser supposed to distinguish between a >>> switch and a numerical argument? Unambiguity is why >>> I wouldn't have picked a minus sign to call the switch >>> parser. >>> >> >>If the switch requires an arguement, it grabs the next >>arguement. If it starts with a dash. The next possible >>command will then follow that arguement. > >So the parser code can't be independent of the subsequent >parsing code. There is an advantage of having the parsing >code just do parsing and then pass an ordered argument list >to the code that's going to use it. It also means that >any defaults have to be set up in the parsing code which makes >it completely un-reentryable (yech..what a word). Try 'non-re-entrant' or 'un-re-enterable'. The logic employed is that the parser is given a description of the possible switches, _which_ ones may have an arguement, and and option for a 'default' value if the arguement is missing. It is a set of parameters that are passed to the parser at run-time. And the code _is_ re-enterable, because the 'defaults' are -not- over-written. the parser takes the rule-set, and the command-line argument list, and returns a set of switch/value pairs. Neither the argument list, nor the rule-set are modified by invoking the parser. The functionality is not all that different from the COMND JSYS, except for the absense of the interactive help capability. >>Or, if you want to just grab arguements, many programs >>have the switch '--', which means everything past here >>is program data, so stop parsing commands. > >And then hands a mess off because, now, the handee has to have >code that deals with parsing along with all the error detection >and messaging that should be at the parsing level. This makes >for lowseg code, not sharable code. Yup. That is -precisely- the purpose of the '--' switch. To indicate that 'that which follows' *is* specific to the particular application, and not subject to the 'general parser' rules. >>>>>>The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" >>>>>>which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". >>>>>>There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however >>>>>>that's not a real killer and there are versions out there >>>>>>that do accept standard '-' switches. >>>>> >>>>>Extensions, extensions. >>>> >>>>If you mean : UNIX has adapted to what people want on >>>>the hardware they use : Yes, good thing IMO. >>> >>> >>> Yup. A necessary condition for coninuting computing work. >>> I'm not sure that having a repeating key to denote an >>> extension to the original function is the best choice. >>> I'd have to think about this one. >>> >> >>Many things were tried, this is the one that stuck. >>It won by sticking around the longest, and getting used >>by the largest number of programmers. "Think of it as >>evolution in action". > > >The term is called ad hoc, fly-by-night or something. Design >goals should include extensibility. The actual history is that the *environment* changed out from under the design. In a manner that the original designers had _no_ reason to expect would occur. The desirability of the 'extension' came into being only after _gross_ architectural changes had occured. There were two possible approches to the 'problem' -- invent something "completely new and different", or find something 'backwards compatible'. The history of 'switches' for passing information to applications had undergone several generations of development. It was -not- cast in stone from 'day one'. There are applications in use _today_ that predate the convention of using '-' as the 'introduction character' for switches. '-' was selected as the 'introduction character' because, at least in part, it already (at least in some contexts) had a "specialized meaning" that precluded it's use as a switch 'identifier'. Thus, '--' could *never* be a valid switch -- a statement that could not be made about any other two-character sequence starting with '-'. Rendering it suitable for 'special meaning' use. The need for a 'marker' between 'switches' and program data becomes evident when you need to pass a switch to a program _as_literal_data_ -- e.g. to search for the presense of a switch in a 'script file' of commands to be executed, or in the documentation of how to use some particular command. '--' was a natural for that, for the reasons outlined above. Having used '--' for _one_ 'extended functionality purpose', it was a natural to expand the extension, by using '--foo' for 'long name' switches, once the (once very real) architectural 'penalties' for using verbose data had gone away. ###### Message-ID: <3F608452.2C3852F0@post9.tele.dk> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:18:58 +0200 From: Henrik Hansen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 28 Organization: TDC Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.249.199.71 X-Trace: 1063291478 dread16.news.tele.dk 32533 195.249.199.71 X-Complaints-To: abuse@post.tele.dk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150765 Peter Ibbotson wrote: > I've almost forgiven him, but then I found out about the syntax for > templates and that new style casting stuff. (Whats wrong[1] with > macros.....) I have to admit that I do actually not know C++ that much. But what started as an exercise or experiment (as I have heard it) has certainly started a trend on which each and every language should have an object system build on top. Have they invented Object assembler yet? > I've heard that there isn't an equivalent to "please" in Danish or least not > one thats used as often as in English. By this I mean in a phrase such as > "Please pass the butter" a Dane will skip the please which can make Danes > sound slightly abrupt to a native English speaker. Can you confirm or deny > this? No, there is no direct equivalent to please. We can put a "vær så venlig" (with the meaing: would you be kind to) in front, but it is not used vey often. In the dictionary please is translated to various different things depending on the context. It is considered polite enough if the request is formulated as a question/option to the one who has to pass the butter, like: "Vil du give mig smørret?", roughly meaning "Would you pass the butter?", whereas an imperative form is considered rude, due to the missing please. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3F541643.515FC4D2@ev1.net> <1062502704.618803@saucer.planet.gong> <1062507154.732646@saucer.planet.gong> <1062526373.21503@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 120 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:30:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1063297842 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:30:42 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:30:42 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150829 On Thu, 11 Sep 03 10:19:39 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > Kevin Handy wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >>> >>>>>>>>.. although I >>>>>>>>admit it's taken me a while to get that hang of it. >>>>>>>>If I had my way I'd make sure UNIX users had at >>>>>>>>least 40 hours training on the 'find' utility alone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Unix doesn't have a "nice" overall user standard. On the >>>>>>>-10 slashes denoted switches which any numbskull can identify. >>>>>>>Even smart people can't identify white space. >>>>>> >>>>>>Erm, switches are usually denoted by "-" preceding them. >>>>> >>>>>Barf. I would have never picked - (which in my experience >>>>>is a sign of subtraction). To me that says, "take this out". >>>> >>>>Some more modern apps use "+foo" to enable an option >>>>and "-foo" to disable it... That's in addition to long >>>>options such as "--disable-foo" and "--enable-foo". :) >>> >>> >>> And how is a parser supposed to distinguish between a >>> switch and a numerical argument? Unambiguity is why >>> I wouldn't have picked a minus sign to call the switch >>> parser. >>> >> >>If the switch requires an arguement, it grabs the next >>arguement. If it starts with a dash. The next possible >>command will then follow that arguement. > >So the parser code can't be independent of the subsequent >parsing code. There is an advantage of having the parsing >code just do parsing and then pass an ordered argument list >to the code that's going to use it. It also means that >any defaults have to be set up in the parsing code which makes >it completely un-reentryable (yech..what a word). The generic parser code is independent of the program specific data to set up allowed options, arguments, and defaults. All UNIX code has been reusable and reenterable since the days of the 11/45. It is also trivially made reentrant by avoiding non-constant non-local data. >>Or, if you want to just grab arguements, many programs >>have the switch '--', which means everything past here >>is program data, so stop parsing commands. > >And then hands a mess off because, now, the handee has to have >code that deals with parsing along with all the error detection >and messaging that should be at the parsing level. This makes >for lowseg code, not sharable code. The remaining arguments are typically program data such as scripts or filenames subject to program interpretation. Note that filenames are not usually parsed by the program, they're just used, the run time system returning a fairly explicit error if there is a problem with what is passed or how it's used. OTOH the filename arguments are often processed, expanded, or generated by the shell used to invoke the program. Division of responsibility has been defined differently in UNIX with a more flexible result than can be achieved in most of the other command line interfaces. UNIX program code has been trivially sharable since early small memory days. Shared library routines have been available for many years now. >>>>>>The recent(ish) trend has been to provide "long options" >>>>>>which are more verbose but more readable, denoted by "--". >>>>>>There are exceptions such as the "tar" utility, however >>>>>>that's not a real killer and there are versions out there >>>>>>that do accept standard '-' switches. >>>>> >>>>>Extensions, extensions. >>>> >>>>If you mean : UNIX has adapted to what people want on >>>>the hardware they use : Yes, good thing IMO. >>> >>> Yup. A necessary condition for coninuting computing work. >>> I'm not sure that having a repeating key to denote an >>> extension to the original function is the best choice. >>> I'd have to think about this one. >> >>Many things were tried, this is the one that stuck. >>It won by sticking around the longest, and getting used >>by the largest number of programmers. "Think of it as >>evolution in action". > > >The term is called ad hoc, fly-by-night or something. Design >goals should include extensibility. You can and should only include extensibility if you have a good idea in what direction the design is going to be extended. UNIX has usually emphasised transparency and flexibility in order to not get in the way and prevent the programmer extending the design in any direction they see fit. For example, program arguments to programs supporting scripting languages may be many line scripts supplied on the command line: most command line parsers prohibit such literal arguments and would require the script be in a file and the filename passed as the argument; UNIX programs do not require that but do allow that. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:57:52 +0100 Message-ID: <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03g (RISC-OS/4.36) Organization: None Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust141.tnt1.lnd9.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1063304734 news.dial.pipex.com 245 62.188.100.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150812 In article , Lon Stowell wrote: > It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports > car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without > ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at > Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight > to Ogalalla. If you tried that on the roads I use to get to work then you would be in a field in no more than 100 yards or so. Straight roads in the UK are a luxury. Dave Daniels ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1063304850 12.240.77.188 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150771 Approximately 9/11/03 10:57, Dave Daniels uttered for posterity: > In article , > Lon Stowell wrote: >> It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports >> car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without >> ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at >> Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight >> to Ogalalla. > > If you tried that on the roads I use to get to work then you would > be in a field in no more than 100 yards or so. Straight roads in > the UK are a luxury. Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken hedgehogs when laying out our highways. Not that I suspect that the entire UK is as large as a single small county in Montana. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 11 Sep 03 09:40:56 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <835.384T2845T5805926@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <3F608452.2C3852F0@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-985.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150935 In article <3F608452.2C3852F0@post9.tele.dk> melvis@post9.tele.dk (Henrik Hansen) writes: >It is considered polite enough if the request is formulated as a >question/option to the one who has to pass the butter, like: "Vil du >give mig smørret?", roughly meaning "Would you pass the butter?", >whereas an imperative form is considered rude, due to the missing >please. The one that gets my hackles up in the English language is the spreading tendency to prefix a request with "If you would..." instead of "please", which turns a legitimate request into a simpering incomplete sentence. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:29:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbWXrYidRJjsGeHvJe+g1It3ShTNRSSwjMfBzdhZ7rFiFF5wxPAdJqQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2003 10:39:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-119 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150878 In article <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE>, iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) wrote: >On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT, Lon Stowell > wrote: > >[...] >> >> Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken >> hedgehogs when laying out our highways. > >I see you've never been to the East Coast... Those weren't hedgehogs. ;-) /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:31:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaB82bIN2YzdpwtuSiFjbW3Lqfn9Aej5kiSSTl2ZLhYZXMjQcKAEdmk X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2003 10:40:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-119 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150880 In article <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Jim wrote: >D.J. wrote: >> Lon Stowell wrote: >> ] Having been blessed with driving around rural New Jersey >> ] several times, I would be extremely sceptical of any claim >> >> I've only been down the Jersey Pike in New Jersey. The roads in >> Maine are very winding. >> >> I've been out in New Mexico, and the road barely turned for miles at >> a time. Mostly it went around buttes because it was cheaper than >> digging a tunnel or remving the butte. >> >> Looking at various places on maps.yahoo.com shows roads in the >> midwest and southwest of the US going mostly in straight lines. >> Unless its near a river, or farmland where someone was a large >> landowner and had enough political clout to prevent a highway being >> made on their land, etc. >> >> JimP. >In Cleveland, OH, the east-west roads follow ancient beaches of >Lake Erie. With a few exceptions, the north-south roads go almost >exactly north-south. The hedgehogs here are apparently sober. Or their needles were magnetic and could work on autopilot. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ37RAZ6CntoMoXD7Jz0ECADkUIk4VV5X2QM3tqR+qHgoqQOmFfaiNR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2003 10:44:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-119 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150874 In article , D.J. wrote: > >iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) wrote: >] On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT, Lon Stowell >] wrote: >] [...] >] > >] > Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken >] > hedgehogs when laying out our highways. >] >] I see you've never been to the East Coast... > >East coast US roads aqre old animal herding tracks, or wanderings of >someone. The roads out in the midwest and southwest are done by >surveys trying to get from one waterhole to another. I thought a lot of the surveying was laid out for land grabs. How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying used in Europe? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 13 Sep 03 11:54:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbgWNVIYHY+uAfP/WX/YsjHWtOwSzptGXDgyYdXEeARpIx8u1Dsdr8a X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 2003 13:04:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-236-76 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150903 In article <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying >JC> used in Europe? > > Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential >for artillery. OH, ratazfratz. I'm never going to remember to think about things that go boom. This has got to be a guy thing. When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass in order to know which way was up? /BAH ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:16:51 -0500 Organization: TychoTown Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour Message-ID: Distribution: world Reply-To: blue7green@wowserscrosswinds.net References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150986 iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) wrote: ] On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT, Lon Stowell ] wrote: ] [...] ] > ] > Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken ] > hedgehogs when laying out our highways. ] ] I see you've never been to the East Coast... East coast US roads aqre old animal herding tracks, or wanderings of someone. The roads out in the midwest and southwest are done by surveys trying to get from one waterhole to another. JimP. -- Jim Disclaimer: Standard July 30, 2003: http://blue7green.net/crestar/index.html drive-in theatres: http://www.drivein-jim.net/ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:38:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1063327094 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:38:14 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:38:14 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150999 On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Lon Stowell wrote: >Approximately 9/11/03 10:57, Dave Daniels uttered for posterity: > >> In article , >> Lon Stowell wrote: >>> It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports >>> car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without >>> ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at >>> Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight >>> to Ogalalla. >> >> If you tried that on the roads I use to get to work then you would >> be in a field in no more than 100 yards or so. Straight roads in >> the UK are a luxury. > > Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken > hedgehogs when laying out our highways. > > Not that I suspect that the entire UK is as large as a single > small county in Montana. According to CIA World Factbook 2003 Area: land: 241,590 sq km Area - comparative: slightly smaller than Oregon compared to states in the US, from other web sites: State Land Area (sq. mi.) 1 Alaska 570,374 2 Texas 261,914 3 California 155,973 4 Montana 145,556 5 New Mexico 121,365 6 Arizona 113,642 7 Nevada 109,806 8 Colorado 103,730 9 Wyoming 97,105 10 Oregon 96,003 UK 93,278 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Message-ID: <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1063330558 12.240.77.188 (Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:35:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:35:58 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 01:35:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150858 Approximately 9/11/03 17:16, D.J. uttered for posterity: > iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) wrote: > ] On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT, Lon Stowell > ] wrote: > ] [...] > ] > > ] > Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken > ] > hedgehogs when laying out our highways. > ] > ] I see you've never been to the East Coast... > > East coast US roads aqre old animal herding tracks, or wanderings of > someone. The roads out in the midwest and southwest are done by > surveys trying to get from one waterhole to another. Having been blessed with driving around rural New Jersey several times, I would be extremely sceptical of any claim that there is *any* logic behind the layout of the state roads and highways. Near the cities you can still see artifacts of old wagon days and occasionally even spoke and wheel layouts, but out in the boondocks, even drunken hedgehogs have more sense of direction. ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:20:43 -0500 Organization: TychoTown Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour Message-ID: Distribution: world Reply-To: blue7green@wowserscrosswinds.net References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151030 Lon Stowell wrote: ] Having been blessed with driving around rural New Jersey ] several times, I would be extremely sceptical of any claim I've only been down the Jersey Pike in New Jersey. The roads in Maine are very winding. I've been out in New Mexico, and the road barely turned for miles at a time. Mostly it went around buttes because it was cheaper than digging a tunnel or remving the butte. Looking at various places on maps.yahoo.com shows roads in the midwest and southwest of the US going mostly in straight lines. Unless its near a river, or farmland where someone was a large landowner and had enough political clout to prevent a highway being made on their land, etc. JimP. -- Jim Disclaimer: Standard July 30, 2003: http://blue7green.net/crestar/index.html drive-in theatres: http://www.drivein-jim.net/ ###### From: Jim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:58:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.87.130.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1063339137 12.87.130.145 (Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:58:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:58:57 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150922 D.J. wrote: > Lon Stowell wrote: > ] Having been blessed with driving around rural New Jersey > ] several times, I would be extremely sceptical of any claim > > I've only been down the Jersey Pike in New Jersey. The roads in > Maine are very winding. > > I've been out in New Mexico, and the road barely turned for miles at > a time. Mostly it went around buttes because it was cheaper than > digging a tunnel or remving the butte. > > Looking at various places on maps.yahoo.com shows roads in the > midwest and southwest of the US going mostly in straight lines. > Unless its near a river, or farmland where someone was a large > landowner and had enough political clout to prevent a highway being > made on their land, etc. > > JimP. In Cleveland, OH, the east-west roads follow ancient beaches of Lake Erie. With a few exceptions, the north-south roads go almost exactly north-south. The hedgehogs here are apparently sober. Jim ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:26:07 -0500 Organization: TychoTown Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour Message-ID: Distribution: world Reply-To: blue7green@wowserscrosswinds.net References: <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151023 Jim wrote: ] In Cleveland, OH, the east-west roads follow ancient beaches of ] Lake Erie. With a few exceptions, the north-south roads go almost ] exactly north-south. The hedgehogs here are apparently sober. Now look at a street map of New Orleans, Lousiana... Its very hard to describe. Some of the roads were apparently attempted to make the perpendicular to the river. Then get a short distance back form the river... and you get roads that start out parallel, become, well, parallel lines meet. JimP. -- Jim Disclaimer: Standard July 30, 2003: http://blue7green.net/crestar/index.html drive-in theatres: http://www.drivein-jim.net/ ###### From: arargh309NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:46:11 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 27 Message-ID: <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> References: <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr183.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1063345546 18667 209.100.226.183 (12 Sep 2003 05:45:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:45:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder2.hal-mli.net!localhost!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151016 On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:26:07 -0500, D.J. wrote: > >Jim wrote: >] In Cleveland, OH, the east-west roads follow ancient beaches of >] Lake Erie. With a few exceptions, the north-south roads go almost >] exactly north-south. The hedgehogs here are apparently sober. > >Now look at a street map of New Orleans, Lousiana... Its very hard >to describe. Some of the roads were apparently attempted to make the >perpendicular to the river. Then get a short distance back form the >river... and you get roads that start out parallel, become, well, >parallel lines meet. For an example in the Midwest: Check out a map of riverside, IL. There are only 2 or 3 straight streets (not counting the border streets) in the whole town, and they parallel the tracks. The guy who laid out that town had no use for a straight edge. Intentionally, if I remember what I heard correctly. -- Arargh309 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:47:25 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030912074725.00398185.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2003 17:00:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0598.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063386006 maya.euronet.nl 35678 62.234.218.90:1485 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150941 On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:57:52 +0100 Dave Daniels wrote: DD> In article , DD> Lon Stowell wrote: DD> > It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports DD> > car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without DD> > ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at DD> > Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight DD> > to Ogalalla. DD> DD> If you tried that on the roads I use to get to work then you would DD> be in a field in no more than 100 yards or so. Straight roads in DD> the UK are a luxury. ISTR the M1 causing accidents by being too straight. Tired truck drivers would fall asleep after a long distance with nothing to do and then come sailing off the road when a bend finally did arrive. Later motorways were built with curves to prevent this. Now they just use traffic jams :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 12 Sep 2003 08:52:10 GMT Lines: 57 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust59.tnt4.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1063356730 news.dial.pipex.com 263 62.188.133.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150867 On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:38:14 GMT, Brian Inglis wrote: >On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Lon >Stowell wrote: > >>Approximately 9/11/03 10:57, Dave Daniels uttered for posterity: >> >>> In article , >>> Lon Stowell wrote: >>>> It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports >>>> car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without >>>> ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at >>>> Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight >>>> to Ogalalla. >>> >>> If you tried that on the roads I use to get to work then you would >>> be in a field in no more than 100 yards or so. Straight roads in >>> the UK are a luxury. >> >> Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken >> hedgehogs when laying out our highways. >> >> Not that I suspect that the entire UK is as large as a single >> small county in Montana. > >According to CIA World Factbook 2003 > > >Area: > land: 241,590 sq km >Area - comparative: > slightly smaller than Oregon > >compared to states in the US, from other web sites: > > State Land Area (sq. mi.) > 1 Alaska 570,374 > 2 Texas 261,914 > 3 California 155,973 > 4 Montana 145,556 > 5 New Mexico 121,365 > 6 Arizona 113,642 > 7 Nevada 109,806 > 8 Colorado 103,730 > 9 Wyoming 97,105 >10 Oregon 96,003 > > UK 93,278 England has an area about 50,00 sq.mi. with a population over 43 million. As you can imagine, it's pretty crowded here! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:08:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1063357695 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:08:15 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:08:15 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151007 On 12 Sep 2003 08:52:10 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:38:14 GMT, Brian Inglis > wrote: >>On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, Lon >>Stowell wrote: >> >>>Approximately 9/11/03 10:57, Dave Daniels uttered for posterity: >>> >>>> In article , >>>> Lon Stowell wrote: >>>>> It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports >>>>> car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without >>>>> ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at >>>>> Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight >>>>> to Ogalalla. >>>> >>>> If you tried that on the roads I use to get to work then you would >>>> be in a field in no more than 100 yards or so. Straight roads in >>>> the UK are a luxury. >>> >>> Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken >>> hedgehogs when laying out our highways. >>> >>> Not that I suspect that the entire UK is as large as a single >>> small county in Montana. >> >>According to CIA World Factbook 2003 >> >> >>Area: >> land: 241,590 sq km >>Area - comparative: >> slightly smaller than Oregon >> >>compared to states in the US, from other web sites: >> >> State Land Area (sq. mi.) >> 1 Alaska 570,374 >> 2 Texas 261,914 >> 3 California 155,973 >> 4 Montana 145,556 >> 5 New Mexico 121,365 >> 6 Arizona 113,642 >> 7 Nevada 109,806 >> 8 Colorado 103,730 >> 9 Wyoming 97,105 >>10 Oregon 96,003 >> >> UK 93,278 > >England has an area about 50,00 sq.mi. with a population over >43 million. As you can imagine, it's pretty crowded here! Population about 50,000,000 now -- average density 1,000/sq.mi. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:14:38 +0100 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <3F608452.2C3852F0@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063368880 29104 62.49.243.90 (12 Sep 2003 12:14:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:14:40 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150969 "Henrik Hansen" wrote in message news:3F608452.2C3852F0@post9.tele.dk... > No, there is no direct equivalent to please. We can put a "vær så > venlig" (with the meaing: would you be kind to) in front, but it is not > used vey often. In the dictionary please is translated to various > different things depending on the context. Thanks for confirming this, I used to work for Borland in the late eighties and this idea was given to me as an explanation / warning before I talked to one of the Danish programmers. I've passed it on to a few others but I suddenly thought that I'd never actually asked a Dane if it was true or not. Part of the problem is Danes excellent command of english, which can make the speaker seem very rude to a native english speaker. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:19:26 +0100 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063369168 9439 62.49.243.90 (12 Sep 2003 12:19:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:19:28 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150958 wrote in message news:86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com... > Check out a map of riverside, IL. There are only 2 or 3 straight > streets (not counting the border streets) in the whole town, and they > parallel the tracks. The guy who laid out that town had no use for a > straight edge. Intentionally, if I remember what I heard correctly. How splendid, a little island of curves in a sea of straight line grid systems. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:26:12 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1063380372 47168 146.186.61.46 (12 Sep 2003 15:26:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:26:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150900 In article <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels wrote: >In article , > Lon Stowell wrote: >> It *is* possible to bungee the steering wheel on a good sports >> car and drive for hundreds of miles on I-80 thru Nebraska without >> ever leaving the driving lanes. A fairly significant corner at >> Lincoln, another jog at Grand Island, then pretty much straight >> to Ogalalla. >If you tried that on the roads I use to get to work then you would >be in a field in no more than 100 yards or so. Straight roads in >the UK are a luxury. As is a 2% grade, or an elbow turn, in Nebraska :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1063393868 12.240.77.188 (Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:11:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:11:08 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:11:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150868 Approximately 9/12/03 02:08, Brian Inglis uttered for posterity: > On 12 Sep 2003 08:52:10 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, > stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >>England has an area about 50,00 sq.mi. with a population over >>43 million. As you can imagine, it's pretty crowded here! > > Population about 50,000,000 now -- average density 1,000/sq.mi. >>> 4 Montana 145,556 > > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Eck. Montana has yet to reach a million, even after including the prairie dogs and moose. ###### Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:27:55 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 2003 01:01:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0896.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063414867 willi.euronet.nl 34883 62.234.211.133:1495 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150953 On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying JC> used in Europe? Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential for artillery. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1063418524 12.240.77.188 (Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:02:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:02:04 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:02:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!central.cox.net!east.cox.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150863 Approximately 9/12/03 13:27, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying > JC> used in Europe? > > Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential > for artillery. Although artillery and generally blowing stuff up is near and dear to the heart of some governments, consider the one activity at the top of the beloved activity lists of *all* governments. Accurate boundaries are extremely helpful for accurate taxation. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:12:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw3no 1063419144 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:12:24 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:12:24 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!pd7tw3no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150979 On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:27:55 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying >JC> used in Europe? > > Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential >for artillery. Town planning -- Anatolia -- 6200 BC: http://www.mash.org.au/articles/articles2.htm In Britain, a military survey of the Scottish highlands was ordered after the 1745 rebellion. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030827 Debian/1.4-3 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1063420376 12.237.120.43 (Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:32:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:32:56 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:32:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150869 D.J. wrote: > Jim wrote: > ] In Cleveland, OH, the east-west roads follow ancient beaches of > ] Lake Erie. With a few exceptions, the north-south roads go almost > ] exactly north-south. The hedgehogs here are apparently sober. > > Now look at a street map of New Orleans, Lousiana... Its very hard > to describe. Some of the roads were apparently attempted to make the > perpendicular to the river. Then get a short distance back form the > river... and you get roads that start out parallel, become, well, > parallel lines meet. Helena, Montana, is really bad to get around in. It was a mining boomtown after the Civil War, and the streets seem to pretty much follow the original mulepaths that once wound their way around tents and cabins. Talk about your drunken hedgehogs. Of course, even though it's the capitol of Montana, it's only got a population of ~27,000, so you're never too far from your destination, even if you can't figure out just how to get there. --Larry ###### From: Larry Elmore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030827 Debian/1.4-3 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.120.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1063420972 12.237.120.43 (Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:42:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:42:52 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:42:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.4.91.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150865 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > D.J. wrote: > >>iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen) wrote: >>] On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:27:30 GMT, Lon Stowell >>] wrote: >>] [...] >>] > >>] > Well, yeah, but here in the USofA we don't follow drunken >>] > hedgehogs when laying out our highways. >>] >>] I see you've never been to the East Coast... >> >>East coast US roads aqre old animal herding tracks, or wanderings of >>someone. The roads out in the midwest and southwest are done by >>surveys trying to get from one waterhole to another. > > I thought a lot of the surveying was laid out for land grabs. That's my impression. > How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying > used in Europe? The Romans pretty much started it in Western Europe, at least on a large basis, IIRC. A process called 'centuriation' was used to apportion lands seized in war both for Roman and Latin colonies and for so-called 'public' lands. --Larry ###### Message-ID: <3F62C94E.A4617B41@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1063431708 12.241.15.59 (Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:41:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:41:48 GMT Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:41:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151015 Lon Stowell wrote: > > Approximately 9/12/03 13:27, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > > > On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying > > JC> used in Europe? > > > > Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential > > for artillery. > > Although artillery and generally blowing stuff up is near and dear > to the heart of some governments, consider the one activity at the > top of the beloved activity lists of *all* governments. Accurate > boundaries are extremely helpful for accurate taxation. > Massachussetts does *not* worry about boundaries...they tax anyone who ever thought about entering Massachussetts...as well as all their relatives. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 07:36:49 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063435010 25871 80.177.7.220 (13 Sep 2003 06:36:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 06:36:50 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150921 "Lon Stowell" wrote in message news:wUu8b.428400$Ho3.69036@sccrnsc03... > Approximately 9/12/03 13:27, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > > > On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying > > JC> used in Europe? > > > > Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential > > for artillery. > > Although artillery and generally blowing stuff up is near and dear > to the heart of some governments, consider the one activity at the > top of the beloved activity lists of *all* governments. Accurate > boundaries are extremely helpful for accurate taxation. Since when have governments been interested in *fair* or accurate taxation ? Cheers, Rupert ###### Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:24:41 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030913092441.14d9777b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 2003 16:37:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0033.nas4-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063471060 maya.euronet.nl 35678 62.234.220.33:1522 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150952 On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:02:04 GMT Lon Stowell wrote: LS> Although artillery and generally blowing stuff up is near and dear LS> to the heart of some governments, consider the one activity at the LS> top of the beloved activity lists of *all* governments. Accurate LS> boundaries are extremely helpful for accurate taxation. But they didn't call it the revenue survey! It was artilllery that made accurate contour mapping necessary and set the ordnance survey in motion. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Sender: gregm@europa.pienet Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> From: Greg Menke Message-ID: Lines: 33 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.158.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1063451370 162.33.158.68 (Sat, 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150905 "Rupert Pigott" writes: > "Lon Stowell" wrote in message > news:wUu8b.428400$Ho3.69036@sccrnsc03... > > Approximately 9/12/03 13:27, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > > > > > On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT > > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying > > > JC> used in Europe? > > > > > > Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential > > > for artillery. > > > > Although artillery and generally blowing stuff up is near and dear > > to the heart of some governments, consider the one activity at the > > top of the beloved activity lists of *all* governments. Accurate > > boundaries are extremely helpful for accurate taxation. > > Since when have governments been interested in *fair* or > accurate taxation ? Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of taxes are appropriate. After all, there is a different gov't on the other side of the line, state, local, whatever and they'll be equally assiduous. Good borders prevent internecine warfare amongst the various tax collectors, which is too bad because it'd be fun to watch. Gregm ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:20:23 +0100 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 37 Message-ID: <1063455624.106289@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1063455625 20771 80.177.7.220 (13 Sep 2003 12:20:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:20:25 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150920 "Greg Menke" wrote in message news:m3ad99djx1.fsf@europa.pienet... > "Rupert Pigott" writes: > > > "Lon Stowell" wrote in message > > news:wUu8b.428400$Ho3.69036@sccrnsc03... > > > Approximately 9/12/03 13:27, Steve O'Hara-Smith uttered for posterity: > > > > > > > On Fri, 12 Sep 03 09:34:54 GMT > > > > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > JC> How did surveying start? A better question is how was surveying > > > > JC> used in Europe? > > > > > > > > Consider the name Ordnance Survey - accurate maps are essential > > > > for artillery. > > > > > > Although artillery and generally blowing stuff up is near and dear > > > to the heart of some governments, consider the one activity at the > > > top of the beloved activity lists of *all* governments. Accurate > > > boundaries are extremely helpful for accurate taxation. > > > > Since when have governments been interested in *fair* or > > accurate taxation ? > > Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of taxes > are appropriate. After all, there is a different gov't on the other > side of the line, state, local, whatever and they'll be equally > assiduous. Good borders prevent internecine warfare amongst the > various tax collectors, which is too bad because it'd be fun to watch. Now we're back onto blowing stuff up again. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:39:27 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1063471178 13585 166.84.199.79 (13 Sep 2003 16:39:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:39:38 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150982 Lon Stowell wrote: > Approximately 9/12/03 02:08, Brian Inglis uttered for posterity: > > > On 12 Sep 2003 08:52:10 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, > > stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: > > >>England has an area about 50,00 sq.mi. with a population over > >>43 million. As you can imagine, it's pretty crowded here! > > > > Population about 50,000,000 now -- average density 1,000/sq.mi. > > >>> 4 Montana 145,556 > > > > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada > > Eck. Montana has yet to reach a million, even after including > the prairie dogs and moose. Yes, but the prarie dogs are counted as 3/5 of a person. -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 12:39:29 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1g17bmb.1xaxju92m1r62N%proto@panix.com> References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> <3F5EECF7.D14F167B@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1063471181 13585 166.84.199.79 (13 Sep 2003 16:39:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:39:41 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150973 Charles Richmond wrote: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Farmers said that. And kids who said it got swatted because > > mothers knew that hay=hell in that context. I never understood > > why saying "WTH" was swearing since it was taking the devil's > > name in vain. > > > I understand that "what in the sam hill" really means > "what in the damn hell"... > And when you call out Jesus H. Christ, the H. stands for haploid. (from TO) > -- > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | > +----------------------------------------------------------------+ -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:23:20 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Sep 2003 17:26:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0664.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063474016 maya.euronet.nl 35691 62.234.218.156:1527 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!194.100.2.58.MISMATCH!fi.sn.net!newsfeed1.fi.sn.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:150950 On 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 -0400 Greg Menke wrote: GM> Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of taxes ____^^^^^^^^ Hmm, taxes, accrue maps ... Sorry that typo is an awful natural pun. GM> are appropriate. After all, there is a different gov't on the other GM> side of the line, state, local, whatever and they'll be equally GM> assiduous. ISTR learning that natural borders were commonly used in earlier times, which leads to obvious fun when they move or, more recently, get moved. GM> Good borders prevent internecine warfare amongst the GM> various tax collectors, which is too bad because it'd be fun to watch. Good borders do not need much by way of surveying. Census taking with a bit of haggling over the edge cases should do the job well enough - an early one of those in England was called the Domesday book. Lobbing shells across several miles of undulating landscape OTOH does require damn good maps, and was I believe the first activity that did. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 13 Sep 2003 20:00:00 GMT Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-188-75.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1063483200 news.dial.pipex.com 247 62.241.188.75 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!lnewsoutpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsinpeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151044 On 13 Sep 2003 14:00:58 -0400, Greg Menke wrote: >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: >> >> Lobbing shells across several miles of undulating landscape OTOH >> does require damn good maps, and was I believe the first activity that >> did. > >What about the aqueducts and the gully-spanning piping that the Romans >did? Or the Roman roads that ran as straight as a arrow from A to B even when you could't see B from A. The excellent Adam Hart-Davis demonstrated how it was done in his tv series "What the Romans Did For Us". -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: arargh309NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:11:51 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr205.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1063483877 14200 209.100.226.205 (13 Sep 2003 20:11:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:11:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151051 On Sat, 13 Sep 03 11:54:57 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass >in order to know which way was up? About the only way a compass can help determine which way is 'up', is to drop it. 'Up' is generally the other way. :-) -- Arargh309 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 14 Sep 03 10:01:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaj8tTmTj/fX63cZZaR9QzYU6155KX1bioRHSjBhhx/yuRF5M4Ow8Ou X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2003 11:11:00 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!199.184.165.233!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-71 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151058 In article <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 -0400 >Greg Menke wrote: > >GM> Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of taxes >____^^^^^^^^ > > Hmm, taxes, accrue maps ... Sorry that typo is an awful natural >pun. > >GM> are appropriate. After all, there is a different gov't on the other >GM> side of the line, state, local, whatever and they'll be equally >GM> assiduous. > > ISTR learning that natural borders were commonly used in earlier >times, which leads to obvious fun when they move or, more recently, get >moved. > >GM> Good borders prevent internecine warfare amongst the >GM> various tax collectors, which is too bad because it'd be fun to watch. > > Good borders do not need much by way of surveying. Census >taking with a bit of haggling over the edge cases should do the job well >enough - an early one of those in England was called the Domesday book. > > Lobbing shells across several miles of undulating landscape OTOH >does require damn good maps, and was I believe the first activity that >did. I understand the need for lobbing over miles. But that didn't happen until recently (didn't it?). Tribochets were measured in yards rather than miles..weren't they? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 14 Sep 03 11:46:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZSF8DFnEZiqEestnp/50zrg16yGtmXXjSKvs2+Tb2S6gHSmmbLZ7xy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2003 12:56:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-71 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151074 In article , Greg Menke wrote: >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > >> On 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 -0400 >> Greg Menke wrote: >> >> GM> Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of taxes >> ____^^^^^^^^ > >Leave me alone, I'm hung-over. Over is much better than up. > >> >> Lobbing shells across several miles of undulating landscape OTOH >> does require damn good maps, and was I believe the first activity that >> did. > >What about the aqueducts and the gully-spanning piping that the Romans >did? Wouldn't you do that by sight? The way to stay walking in a straight line is to site a landmark, walk to it, find another one. Rinse, repeat. To lay an aqueduct, tie a red string around trees that the first designer walks by. hmmm... I guess a better way is to have two high places and then do a logical blue chalk flick between them. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:32:40 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030913193240.10f804ac.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2003 01:01:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0691.nas4-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063501265 maya.euronet.nl 35678 62.234.222.183:1545 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!news-stoc.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151081 On Sat, 13 Sep 03 11:54:57 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass JC> in order to know which way was up? Lodestone was known about in Greece and China about 3000 years ago. I googled a bit and found this snippet ------------------------------------------------------------------ There are references by the Greek historian Pliny to the herdsman Magnes, who was tending his flock when the iron shod tip of his staff struck a lodestone and his iron hobnail boots were held on to the naturally magnetized rock. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm guessing that herdsman got his name stuck to the subject too. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:05:23 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-894.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151090 In article , stanb45@dial.pipex.com says... > On 13 Sep 2003 14:00:58 -0400, Greg Menke wrote: > >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > >> > >> Lobbing shells across several miles of undulating landscape OTOH > >> does require damn good maps, and was I believe the first activity that > >> did. > > > >What about the aqueducts and the gully-spanning piping that the Romans > >did? > > Or the Roman roads that ran as straight as a arrow from A to B even when > you could't see B from A. The excellent Adam Hart-Davis demonstrated > how it was done in his tv series "What the Romans Did For Us". ...made tax collector's trips more efficient? Besides, the senators like to show the locals *something* for their tribute to Was^h^h^hin^h^hRome. Sorry, sticky fingers... -- Keith ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.83.56.193 From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net Message-ID: <3f63d497.33200245@shawnews> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:11:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.69.255.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1063512704 24.69.255.206 (Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:11:44 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:11:44 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151107 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: [snip] >OH, ratazfratz. I'm never going to remember to think about things >that go boom. This has got to be a guy thing. > >When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass >in order to know which way was up? No, that was north. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:07:28 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030914080728.1b66da8f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2003 11:44:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0083.nas1-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063539874 willi.euronet.nl 34875 62.234.208.83:1569 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151086 On 13 Sep 2003 14:00:58 -0400 Greg Menke wrote: GM> Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: GM> GM> > On 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 -0400 GM> > Greg Menke wrote: GM> > GM> > GM> Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of GM> > GM> taxes GM> > ____^^^^^^^^ GM> GM> Leave me alone, I'm hung-over. I normally would - but it *was* a great pun :) GM> > Lobbing shells across several miles of undulating landscape OTOH GM> > does require damn good maps, and was I believe the first activity GM> > that did. GM> GM> What about the aqueducts and the gully-spanning piping that the Romans GM> did? Hmm - good point. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Sender: gregm@europa.pienet Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> From: Greg Menke Message-ID: Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 14 Sep 2003 09:31:46 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.158.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1063546306 162.33.158.68 (Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:31:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:31:46 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151078 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article , > Greg Menke wrote: > >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > > > >> On 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 -0400 > >> Greg Menke wrote: > >> > >> GM> Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of > taxes > >> ____^^^^^^^^ > > > >Leave me alone, I'm hung-over. > > Over is much better than up. Don't be too sure. It (was) 2 double martinis on an empty stomach, tuna tartar and a caesar salad. I think I broke something... ;) > >> Lobbing shells across several miles of undulating landscape OTOH > >> does require damn good maps, and was I believe the first activity that > >> did. > > > >What about the aqueducts and the gully-spanning piping that the Romans > >did? > > Wouldn't you do that by sight? The way to stay walking in a > straight line is to site a landmark, walk to it, find another > one. Rinse, repeat. To lay an aqueduct, tie a red string > around trees that the first designer walks by. hmmm... > I guess a better way is to have two high places and then > do a logical blue chalk flick between them. I guess some of it could be, but if you're laying stonework up and down hills, or rigging lead-lined stone culverts to take water from the top of one hill, down, then up to the top of another, you have to be pretty good at heights and distances. And if you're budgeting and planning the routes for next year's construction, you've got to have good maps so the PHB's have something to fight over. Gregm ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 03 10:04:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYEArO6jyr5H2tMq4dwttB46muJSZKdsgVnF/ZwOEAAihQzJdyw69nr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2003 11:14:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-133 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151126 In article , Greg Menke wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article , >> Greg Menke wrote: >> >Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: >> > >> >> On 13 Sep 2003 07:09:30 -0400 >> >> Greg Menke wrote: >> >> >> >> GM> Accruate maps don't help decide whether to tax, but which set of >> taxes >> >> ____^^^^^^^^ >> > >> >Leave me alone, I'm hung-over. >> >> Over is much better than up. > >Don't be too sure. It (was) 2 double martinis on an empty stomach, >tuna tartar and a caesar salad. I think I broke something... ;) Oh, man. Your problem wasn't too much booze; it was not having enough before eating all that raw stuff. >> >What about the aqueducts and the gully-spanning piping that the Romans >> >did? >> >> Wouldn't you do that by sight? The way to stay walking in a >> straight line is to site a landmark, walk to it, find another >> one. Rinse, repeat. To lay an aqueduct, tie a red string >> around trees that the first designer walks by. hmmm... >> I guess a better way is to have two high places and then >> do a logical blue chalk flick between them. > >I guess some of it could be, but if you're laying stonework up and >down hills, or rigging lead-lined stone culverts to take water from >the top of one hill, down, then up to the top of another, you have to >be pretty good at heights and distances. And if you're budgeting and >planning the routes for next year's construction, you've got to have >good maps so the PHB's have something to fight over. Managerial specs are supposed to be written _after_ the tech specs. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:54:37 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Robert Bonomi Consulting Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <20030913193240.10f804ac.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: h-68-167-94-122.chcgilgm.covad.net X-Trace: sun-news.laserlink.net 1063551277 6913 68.167.94.122 (14 Sep 2003 14:54:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@covad.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:54:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test69 (20 September 1998) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.86!ash.uu.net!sun-news.laserlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151148 In article <20030913193240.10f804ac.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sat, 13 Sep 03 11:54:57 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >JC> When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass >JC> in order to know which way was up? > > Lodestone was known about in Greece and China about 3000 >years ago. I googled a bit and found this snippet > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >There are references by the Greek historian Pliny to the herdsman Magnes, >who was tending his flock when the iron shod tip of his staff struck a >lodestone and his iron hobnail boots were held on to the naturally >magnetized rock. >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I'm guessing that herdsman got his name stuck to the subject >too. Strange. I thought "Magnes-ium" was somthing totally different. ###### Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:01:28 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030914180128.12d7bf7d.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2003 19:52:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0226.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063569161 willi.euronet.nl 34894 62.234.216.226:1582 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151145 On 14 Sep 2003 09:31:46 -0400 Greg Menke wrote: GM> I guess some of it could be, but if you're laying stonework up and GM> down hills, or rigging lead-lined stone culverts to take water from GM> the top of one hill, down, then up to the top of another, you have to GM> be pretty good at heights and distances. You are quite right that the Romans were better at this than I was giving them credit for. All this has dislodged an old memory from Latin lessons about a letter (Pliny IIRC) concerning the problem of taking stone from a quarry to the coast (I forget how far it was but certainly not in sight) and observing that a canal was not an option because the quarry was too high above sea level (a figure was in there). Pliny was suggesting building a canal but not taking it all the way to the sea so that it would not drain into the sea but there would only be a short land haul for the stone. That much knowledge would seem to imply quite good surveying had taken place. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 18:21:51 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030914182151.6bdf03bb.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <3f63d497.33200245@shawnews> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2003 19:52:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0226.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063569165 willi.euronet.nl 34894 62.234.216.226:1582 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151147 On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:11:44 GMT genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: GW> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: GW> GW> [snip] GW> GW> >OH, ratazfratz. I'm never going to remember to think about things GW> >that go boom. This has got to be a guy thing. GW> > GW> >When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass GW> >in order to know which way was up? GW> GW> No, that was north. That's up on the map :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Sender: gregm@europa.pienet Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> <20030914180128.12d7bf7d.steveo@eircom.net> From: Greg Menke Message-ID: Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 14 Sep 2003 16:04:51 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.158.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1063569891 162.33.158.68 (Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:04:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:04:51 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151136 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On 14 Sep 2003 09:31:46 -0400 > Greg Menke wrote: > > GM> I guess some of it could be, but if you're laying stonework up and > GM> down hills, or rigging lead-lined stone culverts to take water from > GM> the top of one hill, down, then up to the top of another, you have to > GM> be pretty good at heights and distances. > > You are quite right that the Romans were better at this than I > was giving them credit for. All this has dislodged an old memory from > Latin lessons about a letter (Pliny IIRC) concerning the problem of > taking stone from a quarry to the coast (I forget how far it was but > certainly not in sight) and observing that a canal was not an option > because the quarry was too high above sea level (a figure was in there). > Pliny was suggesting building a canal but not taking it all the way to > the sea so that it would not drain into the sea but there would only be a > short land haul for the stone. > > That much knowledge would seem to imply quite good surveying had > taken place. > One of the neatest memories I have of visiting France a year or two ago was trying to get ourselves lost in Languedoc and driving around through some isolated little towns, which came complete with their own Roman ruins (at least I think they were based on an imperfect reading of the signs..). Now how cool is it that you could have a piece of a real aqueduct in your own back yard! Gregm ###### Lines: 24 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 14 Sep 2003 20:25:00 GMT References: <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m11) Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151132 In article <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com>, arargh309NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com writes: >Check out a map of riverside, IL. There are only 2 or 3 straight >streets (not counting the border streets) in the whole town, and they >parallel the tracks. The guy who laid out that town had no use for a >straight edge. Intentionally, if I remember what I heard correctly. The "guy" was Frederick Law Olmstead, designer also of New York's Central Park, Brooklyn's Prospect Park, Boston's Fenway, the initial plan for the University of California in Berkeley, etc. The situation addressed by the design of Riverside was that the plot of land was a flat and very poorly drained prairie. By not following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage and curved streets. One hundred and twenty years of subsequent gardening and arboring hides the fact that the area was once not much more than a marsh. The railroad tracks were there previous to the development, and the development was a speculative undertaking based on the fact that the railroad had established an express train stop at what is now the Riverside station. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ###### From: Brian Boutel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <3f63d497.33200245@shawnews> <20030914182151.6bdf03bb.steveo@eircom.net> In-Reply-To: <20030914182151.6bdf03bb.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Message-ID: <0z49b.1258$tv1.152670@news02.tsnz.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:53:12 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.144.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1063572796 203.96.144.148 (Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:53:16 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:53:16 NZST Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.space.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151139 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:11:44 GMT > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > > GW> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > GW> > GW> [snip] > GW> > GW> >OH, ratazfratz. I'm never going to remember to think about things > GW> >that go boom. This has got to be a guy thing. > GW> > > GW> >When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass > GW> >in order to know which way was up? > GW> > GW> No, that was north. > > That's up on the map :) > Is it? See http://planning.massey.ac.nz/gis/Unit5/intro.htm --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Niklas Karlsson Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Darwin) Date: 14 Sep 2003 20:58:24 GMT Lines: 17 Organization: Zen Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.69.19.230 X-Trace: 1063573104 lovejoy.zen.co.uk 10999 82.69.19.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zen.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!lovejoy.zen.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151127 In article <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com>, Bruce B. Reynolds wrote: > By not following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some > typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage and curved ^^^^^^^^^^ > streets. So prior to Olmstead and Vaux, people in the area had no clue about proper punctuation or spacing, say? Niklas -- After all, there is a different gov't on the other side of the line, state, local, whatever and they'll be equally assiduous. Good borders prevent internecine warfare amongst the various tax collectors, which is too bad because it'd be fun to watch. -- Greg Menke ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:24:59 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <3f63d497.33200245@shawnews> <20030914182151.6bdf03bb.steveo@eircom.net> <0z49b.1258$tv1.152670@news02.tsnz.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-470.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151165 In article <0z49b.1258$tv1.152670@news02.tsnz.net>, boutelbNOSPAM@acm.org says... > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:11:44 GMT > > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > > > > GW> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > GW> > > GW> [snip] > > GW> > > GW> >OH, ratazfratz. I'm never going to remember to think about things > > GW> >that go boom. This has got to be a guy thing. > > GW> > > > GW> >When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass > > GW> >in order to know which way was up? > > GW> > > GW> No, that was north. > > > > That's up on the map :) > > > Is it? > > See http://planning.massey.ac.nz/gis/Unit5/intro.htm Perhpas you've been using a telescope to view our planet from yours? The inversion is a well known phenomenon. ;-) -- Keith ###### From: arargh309NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:41:29 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr216.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1063586452 3290 209.100.226.216 (15 Sep 2003 00:40:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:40:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out1.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151109 On 14 Sep 2003 20:25:00 GMT, bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) wrote: >In article <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com>, >arargh309NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com writes: > >>Check out a map of riverside, IL. There are only 2 or 3 straight >>streets (not counting the border streets) in the whole town, and they >>parallel the tracks. The guy who laid out that town had no use for a >>straight edge. Intentionally, if I remember what I heard correctly. > >The "guy" was Frederick Law Olmstead, designer also of New >York's Central Park, Brooklyn's Prospect Park, Boston's Fenway, >the initial plan for the University of California in Berkeley, etc. >The situation addressed by the design of Riverside was that the >plot of land was a flat and very poorly drained prairie. By not >following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some >typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage >and curved streets. One hundred and twenty years of subsequent >gardening and arboring hides the fact that the area was once >not much more than a marsh. The railroad tracks were there >previous to the development, and the development was a speculative >undertaking based on the fact that the railroad had established >an express train stop at what is now the Riverside station. Ok, thanks. -- Arargh309 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address. ###### Lines: 15 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: bbreynolds@aol.comedxedl (Bruce B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 15 Sep 2003 03:17:26 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: usenet_offline-m18) Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030914231726.28496.00000645@mb-m18.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151135 In article , Niklas Karlsson writes: >> By not following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some >> typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage and curved > ^^^^^^^^^^ >> streets. > >So prior to Olmstead and Vaux, people in the area had no clue about >proper punctuation or spacing, say? Lapsus digitalis. -- Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ###### From: Jim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:32:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.87.163.7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1063596767 12.87.163.7 (Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:32:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:32:47 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151140 Bruce B. Reynolds wrote: > In article <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com>, > arargh309NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com writes: > > >>Check out a map of riverside, IL. There are only 2 or 3 straight >>streets (not counting the border streets) in the whole town, and they >>parallel the tracks. The guy who laid out that town had no use for a >>straight edge. Intentionally, if I remember what I heard correctly. > > > The "guy" was Frederick Law Olmstead, designer also of New > York's Central Park, Brooklyn's Prospect Park, Boston's Fenway, > the initial plan for the University of California in Berkeley, etc. > The situation addressed by the design of Riverside was that the > plot of land was a flat and very poorly drained prairie. By not > following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some > typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage > and curved streets. One hundred and twenty years of subsequent > gardening and arboring hides the fact that the area was once > not much more than a marsh. The railroad tracks were there > previous to the development, and the development was a speculative > undertaking based on the fact that the railroad had established > an express train stop at what is now the Riverside station. > -- > Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA > Yet another waterfowl habitat despoiled. I demand that it be turned back into a marsh immediately, and I want Washington returned to the original 'fetid malarial swamp' that it once was. At one time, Washington was a diplomatic 'hardship post.' Jim ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:41:35 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <20030914182151.6bdf03bb.steveo@eircom.net> <0z49b.1258$tv1.152670@news02.tsnz.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1063627557 29627 193.71.197.12 (15 Sep 2003 12:05:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:05:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!news.powertech.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151155 In article , Keith R. Williams wrote: >In article <0z49b.1258$tv1.152670@news02.tsnz.net>, >boutelbNOSPAM@acm.org says... >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> > On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:11:44 GMT >> > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: >> > >> > GW> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > GW> >> > GW> [snip] >> > GW> >> > GW> >OH, ratazfratz. I'm never going to remember to think about things >> > GW> >that go boom. This has got to be a guy thing. >> > GW> > >> > GW> >When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass >> > GW> >in order to know which way was up? Compasses was a gradual adaption of the lodestone, and most of the development happened between AD 400 and AD 900. By the viking age compass navigation was a known craft. >> > GW> No, that was north. >> > >> > That's up on the map :) >> > >> Is it? >> >> See http://planning.massey.ac.nz/gis/Unit5/intro.htm > >Perhpas you've been using a telescope to view our planet from >yours? The inversion is a well known phenomenon. ;-) It is striking how different the two hemispheres are, and this map is a good example. Australia, New Zealand and Chile are the exceptions in the largest ocean we have. In therms of interaction the South Atlantic, the South Indian Ocean and the South Pacific acts as a unit, and has much more interaction than they have with their northern halves. Oceania is therefore a very fitting name. -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:42:56 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1063627557 29627 193.71.197.12 (15 Sep 2003 12:05:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:05:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151152 In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, Walter Bushell wrote: >Lon Stowell wrote: > >> Approximately 9/12/03 02:08, Brian Inglis uttered for posterity: >> >> > On 12 Sep 2003 08:52:10 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, >> > stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >> >> >>England has an area about 50,00 sq.mi. with a population over >> >>43 million. As you can imagine, it's pretty crowded here! >> > >> > Population about 50,000,000 now -- average density 1,000/sq.mi. >> >> >>> 4 Montana 145,556 >> > >> > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada >> >> Eck. Montana has yet to reach a million, even after including >> the prairie dogs and moose. Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? >Yes, but the prarie dogs are counted as 3/5 of a person. >-- >The last temptation is the highest treason: >To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot -- mrr ###### From: Morten Reistad Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:47:48 +0200 Organization: EUnet Norway Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3F608452.2C3852F0@post9.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.197.12 X-Trace: services.kq.no 1063627557 29627 193.71.197.12 (15 Sep 2003 12:05:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eunet.no NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:05:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.eunet.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151158 In article , Peter Ibbotson wrote: >"Henrik Hansen" wrote in message >news:3F608452.2C3852F0@post9.tele.dk... >> No, there is no direct equivalent to please. We can put a "vær så >> venlig" (with the meaing: would you be kind to) in front, but it is not >> used vey often. In the dictionary please is translated to various >> different things depending on the context. > > >Thanks for confirming this, I used to work for Borland in the late eighties >and this idea was given to me as an explanation / warning before I talked to >one of the Danish programmers. I've passed it on to a few others but I >suddenly thought that I'd never actually asked a Dane if it was true or not. >Part of the problem is Danes excellent command of english, which can make >the speaker seem very rude to a native english speaker. The scandinavian languages all express politeness with different methods than using a special word for it. The You/Thee difference between familiarity and politeness is present in Du/De; and permeates grammar. Also sentence construction is different; also like it was in Olde English. Translating computer interactions is therefore a very difficult task if you aren't allowed to use the program itself; just to do a textual translation. -- mrr ###### Sender: gregm@europa.pienet Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <1063435009.789403@saucer.planet.gong> <20030913192320.068a0d86.steveo@eircom.net> From: Greg Menke Message-ID: Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 15 Sep 2003 07:30:52 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.158.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1063625452 162.33.158.68 (Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:30:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:30:52 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!news.umass.edu!news-out.cwix.com!pullfeed!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151129 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article , > Greg Menke wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> >What about the aqueducts and the gully-spanning piping that the Romans > >> >did? > >> > >> Wouldn't you do that by sight? The way to stay walking in a > >> straight line is to site a landmark, walk to it, find another > >> one. Rinse, repeat. To lay an aqueduct, tie a red string > >> around trees that the first designer walks by. hmmm... > >> I guess a better way is to have two high places and then > >> do a logical blue chalk flick between them. > > > >I guess some of it could be, but if you're laying stonework up and > >down hills, or rigging lead-lined stone culverts to take water from > >the top of one hill, down, then up to the top of another, you have to > >be pretty good at heights and distances. And if you're budgeting and > >planning the routes for next year's construction, you've got to have > >good maps so the PHB's have something to fight over. > > Managerial specs are supposed to be written _after_ the tech specs. It that like doing the documentation after the system so the two will match? Gregm ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:05:34 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-795.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!noris.net!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151159 In article , mrr@reistad.priv.nO says... > In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, > Walter Bushell wrote: > >Lon Stowell wrote: > > > >> Approximately 9/12/03 02:08, Brian Inglis uttered for posterity: > >> > >> > On 12 Sep 2003 08:52:10 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, > >> > stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: > >> > >> >>England has an area about 50,00 sq.mi. with a population over > >> >>43 million. As you can imagine, it's pretty crowded here! > >> > > >> > Population about 50,000,000 now -- average density 1,000/sq.mi. > >> > >> >>> 4 Montana 145,556 > >> > > >> > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada > >> > >> Eck. Montana has yet to reach a million, even after including > >> the prairie dogs and moose. > > Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? According to the US Census Bureau there are seven states with populations less than a million (the smallest being Wyoming with under half million). Also figure in the population when they became states (the US population in 1790 was 3,929,214 divided by thirteen is < 1M per). So, the answer is to your question is "no". ;-) http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/states/tables/ST-EST2002-01.php -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:58:04 -0500 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:58:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.57.2.36 X-Trace: sv3-U5bDt7nV44dwHHgn4kmj43OHdwhY7fZoaicQ6kcRLN4MJKwY0+edGGgyy42jQ+YpStGi7BQEEWKK8NS!hzFb31YoLhmMx9QmB5Owrb4tApqJWOy4Z8CdNN8PeMk9yAAj7ltyoniI3aLlssWjMjrGMBCPihCr!Zw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151203 "Morten Reistad" wrote in message news:g354kb.j8.ln@acer... > In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, > > Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? > The Constitution allows Congress to determine the number of people per congressional representative but otherwise the requirements for statehood tend to be governed by political expediency. Nevada became a state in 1865 at the end of the Civil War so Lincoln could be guaranteed two more Republican senators, and to ensure the flow of silver that financed the war. Rumor has it that the census figures were "adjusted" so that enough people were in the territory to qualify for Congress. (Trivia: Las Vegas at the time was still part of Arizona territory. The NV statehood act moved the border south to the Colorado River. Otherwise Elvis would have been singing the praises of Viva Tonopah.) On the other hand Utah, with far more people, did not become a state until about 30 years later because Brigham Young's policies were not palatable to the rest of the country (and they didn't produce enough silver to convince Congress to overlook that nasty polygamy issue). Jack Peacock ###### Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:38:15 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030915193815.58d789c7.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <20030913193240.10f804ac.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2003 01:01:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0306.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063674067 maya.euronet.nl 35687 62.234.217.52:1627 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!newsfeed.kabelfoon.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151199 On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:54:37 +0000 (UTC) bonomi@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote: RB> In article <20030913193240.10f804ac.steveo@eircom.net>, RB> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: RB> >On Sat, 13 Sep 03 11:54:57 GMT RB> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: RB> > RB> >JC> When did compasses happen? Didn't you have to have a compass RB> >JC> in order to know which way was up? RB> > RB> > Lodestone was known about in Greece and China about 3000 RB> >years ago. I googled a bit and found this snippet RB> > RB> >------------------------------------------------------------------ RB> >There are references by the Greek historian Pliny to the herdsman RB> >Magnes, who was tending his flock when the iron shod tip of his staff RB> >struck a lodestone and his iron hobnail boots were held on to the RB> >naturally magnetized rock. RB> >------------------------------------------------------------------ RB> > RB> > I'm guessing that herdsman got his name stuck to the subject RB> >too. RB> RB> Strange. I thought "Magnes-ium" was somthing totally different. Well yes - but where did that come into the story ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:15:42 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Message-ID: <20030915201542.3e496271.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <20030912222755.7881c07f.steveo@eircom.net> <3f63d497.33200245@shawnews> <20030914182151.6bdf03bb.steveo@eircom.net> <0z49b.1258$tv1.152670@news02.tsnz.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.4 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2003 01:01:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p0306.nas3-asd6.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1063674068 maya.euronet.nl 35687 62.234.217.52:1627 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151197 On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:53:12 +1200 Brian Boutel wrote: BB> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: BB> > On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:11:44 GMT BB> > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: BB> > BB> > GW> No, that was north. BB> > BB> > That's up on the map :) BB> > BB> Is it? BB> > BB> See http://planning.massey.ac.nz/gis/Unit5/intro.htm Nononononono *the* map - I need it to get back to the gates after picking up the bell. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:17:20 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-645.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151209 In article , peacock@simconv.com says... > "Morten Reistad" wrote in message > news:g354kb.j8.ln@acer... > > In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, > > > > Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? > > > The Constitution allows Congress to determine the number of people per > congressional representative but otherwise the requirements for statehood > tend to be governed by political expediency. Nevada became a state in 1865 > at the end of the Civil War so Lincoln could be guaranteed two more > Republican senators, and to ensure the flow of silver that financed the war. Could be. Such things have been done many times. There was some hanky-panky in the Alaska statehood deal too. > Rumor has it that the census figures were "adjusted" so that enough people > were in the territory to qualify for Congress. Article I Section 2 of the Constitution says, in part: The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative;... Nevada would have had one representative, no matter the small population. > (Trivia: Las Vegas at the > time was still part of Arizona territory. The NV statehood act moved the > border south to the Colorado River. Otherwise Elvis would have been singing > the praises of Viva Tonopah.) > > On the other hand Utah, with far more people, did not become a state until > about 30 years later because Brigham Young's policies were not palatable to > the rest of the country (and they didn't produce enough silver to convince > Congress to overlook that nasty polygamy issue). ;-) -- Keith ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1063669012 12.240.77.188 (Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:36:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:36:52 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:36:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151178 Approximately 9/15/03 09:58, Jack Peacock uttered for posterity: > "Morten Reistad" wrote in message > news:g354kb.j8.ln@acer... >> In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, >> >> Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? >> > The Constitution allows Congress to determine the number of people per > congressional representative but otherwise the requirements for statehood > tend to be governed by political expediency. Nevada became a state in 1865 > at the end of the Civil War so Lincoln could be guaranteed two more > Republican senators, and to ensure the flow of silver that financed the war. > Rumor has it that the census figures were "adjusted" so that enough people > were in the territory to qualify for Congress. (Trivia: Las Vegas at the > time was still part of Arizona territory. The NV statehood act moved the > border south to the Colorado River. Otherwise Elvis would have been singing > the praises of Viva Tonopah.) > > On the other hand Utah, with far more people, did not become a state until > about 30 years later because Brigham Young's policies were not palatable to > the rest of the country (and they didn't produce enough silver to convince > Congress to overlook that nasty polygamy issue). Eggshually Utah originally attempted to enter the Union as the state of Deseret. Being turned down, the First Prophet of the Church had a divine revelation that polygamy would henceforth only be practiced by fundamentalists and residents of Dragerton. Allegedly the constitution that was submitted for the renamed state of Utah was copied from that of the recently admitted Nevada, changing only the state name. As for the value of states to the war, the military mineral brass was also of importance, thus Montana was of interest due to the annual migration of monkeys. Altho it wasn't admitted until much later, just in time for the Silver used in the 1889 dollars. ###### From: Lon Stowell Reply-To: lon.stowell@comcast.net User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3EFFB868.B460B701@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <3F078EE6.D1D79D9D@popd.ix.netcom.com> <87ekzlp4a0.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <674.361T1471T5274932@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3f5bdf93.26285191@shawnews> <3F5EECF7.D14F167B@ev1.net> <1g17bmb.1xaxju92m1r62N%proto@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <1g17bmb.1xaxju92m1r62N%proto@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.240.77.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1063669085 12.240.77.188 (Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:38:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:38:05 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:38:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151218 Approximately 9/13/03 09:39, Walter Bushell uttered for posterity: > Charles Richmond wrote: > >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > >> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> > Farmers said that. And kids who said it got swatted because >> > mothers knew that hay=hell in that context. I never understood >> > why saying "WTH" was swearing since it was taking the devil's >> > name in vain. >> > >> I understand that "what in the sam hill" really means >> "what in the damn hell"... >> > > And when you call out Jesus H. Christ, the H. stands for haploid. (from > TO) Are you sure it wasn't "Tiberius" ? ###### Message-ID: <3F669CFB.FD600247@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <20030914231726.28496.00000645@mb-m18.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1063682506 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:21:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:21:46 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:21:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news-out.superfeed.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in-maxim.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151216 "Bruce B. Reynolds" wrote: > > In article , Niklas > Karlsson writes: > > >> By not following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some > >> typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage and curved > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > >> streets. > > > >So prior to Olmstead and Vaux, people in the area had no clue about > >proper punctuation or spacing, say? > > Lapsus digitalis. > I guess that *you* are *not* really on "top" of your "typography"... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3F66A244.58148E1@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1063683860 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:44:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:44:20 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:44:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151210 Jack Peacock wrote: > > "Morten Reistad" wrote in message > news:g354kb.j8.ln@acer... > > In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, > > > > Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? > > > The Constitution allows Congress to determine the number of people per > congressional representative but otherwise the requirements for statehood > tend to be governed by political expediency. Nevada became a state in 1865 > at the end of the Civil War so Lincoln could be guaranteed two more > Republican senators, and to ensure the flow of silver that financed the war. > Rumor has it that the census figures were "adjusted" so that enough people > were in the territory to qualify for Congress. (Trivia: Las Vegas at the > time was still part of Arizona territory. The NV statehood act moved the > border south to the Colorado River. Otherwise Elvis would have been singing > the praises of Viva Tonopah.) > While it is true that Congress in the U.S. determines the "re-apportionment" Of Representatives in the House of Representatives, ISTM that every state must be given at least *one* Representative, regardless of population... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Floyd Davidson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: 15 Sep 2003 20:25:08 -0800 Organization: __________ Lines: 70 Message-ID: <87r82hl5qz.fld@barrow.com> References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-212.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: gnus 5.8.3/XEmacs 21.1.9/Linux Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151175 Keith R. Williams wrote: >In article , peacock@simconv.com >says... >> "Morten Reistad" wrote in message >> news:g354kb.j8.ln@acer... >> > In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, >> > >> > Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? >> > >> The Constitution allows Congress to determine the number of people per >> congressional representative but otherwise the requirements for statehood >> tend to be governed by political expediency. Nevada became a state in 1865 >> at the end of the Civil War so Lincoln could be guaranteed two more >> Republican senators, and to ensure the flow of silver that financed the war. > >Could be. Such things have been done many times. There was some >hanky-panky in the Alaska statehood deal too. Yup, but it's a bit funny as it turned out. Up until Statehood the Alaska delegate had been a Democrat since the high tide with FDR in 1932 swept out all the Republicans (including a Republican delegate from Alaska). Hence a number of Republican Senators were not in favor of Alaska statehood. And indeed the first Governor, both Senators and the Representative from Alaska were all Democrats. Within 20 years though, all of the initial set of Democrats (two Senators and a Congressman) all died or were defeated, and were replaced with Republicans! (Actually, the last one didn't happen for just over 20 years though, when Democrat Gruening, unpopular for voting no on the Gulf of Tonkin farce that set the Vietnam War in motion, was defeated by a then pro-war Mike Gravel, who was later flip flopped and is famous for reading the Pentagon Papers and was then himself defeated after one term by Republican Frank Murkowski who recently left the US Senate after 22 years to run for and win the Governors seat.) This next election, when Murkowski's hand picked replacement (his daughter Lisa) faces off against popular former Democratic Governor Tony Knowles, will be the first time in almost 25 years that a Democrat from Alaska is considered a serious contender for either the Senate or the House. >> Rumor has it that the census figures were "adjusted" so that enough people >> were in the territory to qualify for Congress. Well, it wasn't really the census, or qualifying. As pointed out below, there is no minimum population, and each state has at least one Representative. What was fudged was voter eligibility for the statehood election vote! It was obviously going to be a close call if only Alaska citizens were allowed to vote... So non-resident US military personnel assigned to Alaska were allowed to vote too! I don't recall off hand what the numbers turned out to be, but in the end there was no doubt that the military vote is what allowed statehood to be carried. >Article I Section 2 of the Constitution says, in part: > > The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every > thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one > Representative;... assigned to the various states until the enumeration (census) > could be completed> ... -- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:16:19 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> <87r82hl5qz.fld@barrow.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-628.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151282 In article <87r82hl5qz.fld@barrow.com>, floyd@barrow.com says... > Keith R. Williams wrote: > >In article , peacock@simconv.com > >says... > >> "Morten Reistad" wrote in message > >> news:g354kb.j8.ln@acer... > >> > In article <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com>, > >> > > >> > Isn't a population of a million a requirement for statehood? > >> > > >> The Constitution allows Congress to determine the number of people per > >> congressional representative but otherwise the requirements for statehood > >> tend to be governed by political expediency. Nevada became a state in 1865 > >> at the end of the Civil War so Lincoln could be guaranteed two more > >> Republican senators, and to ensure the flow of silver that financed the war. > > > >Could be. Such things have been done many times. There was some > >hanky-panky in the Alaska statehood deal too. > > Yup, but it's a bit funny as it turned out. Up until Statehood > the Alaska delegate had been a Democrat since the high tide with > FDR in 1932 swept out all the Republicans (including a > Republican delegate from Alaska). Hence a number of Republican > Senators were not in favor of Alaska statehood. And indeed the > first Governor, both Senators and the Representative from Alaska > were all Democrats. Within 20 years though, all of the initial > set of Democrats (two Senators and a Congressman) all died or > were defeated, and were replaced with Republicans! (Actually, > the last one didn't happen for just over 20 years though, when > Democrat Gruening, unpopular for voting no on the Gulf of Tonkin > farce that set the Vietnam War in motion, was defeated by a then > pro-war Mike Gravel, who was later flip flopped and is famous > for reading the Pentagon Papers and was then himself defeated > after one term by Republican Frank Murkowski who recently left > the US Senate after 22 years to run for and win the Governors > seat.) > > This next election, when Murkowski's hand picked replacement > (his daughter Lisa) faces off against popular former Democratic > Governor Tony Knowles, will be the first time in almost 25 years > that a Democrat from Alaska is considered a serious contender > for either the Senate or the House. > > >> Rumor has it that the census figures were "adjusted" so that enough people > >> were in the territory to qualify for Congress. > > Well, it wasn't really the census, or qualifying. As pointed > out below, there is no minimum population, and each state has at > least one Representative. > > What was fudged was voter eligibility for the statehood election > vote! It was obviously going to be a close call if only Alaska > citizens were allowed to vote... So non-resident US military > personnel assigned to Alaska were allowed to vote too! I don't > recall off hand what the numbers turned out to be, but in the > end there was no doubt that the military vote is what allowed > statehood to be carried. This was exactly the "hanky-panky" I was referring to in the Alaska statehood deal. However, what was the problem with Nevada?. The implication was that there weren't enough citizens to form a state (or have a representative?). As stated, it was clearly wrong. -- Keith ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:26:36 -0500 From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3F3F145C.A27F9DE3@yahoo.com> <3v23mvgiv773g7oujaf6hootf196juu83d@4ax.com> <1g17bei.1src9il1xlqv4N%proto@panix.com> <87r82hl5qz.fld@barrow.com> Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:26:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.57.2.36 X-Trace: sv3-gocZQF9hRegL9Xa7lMcDxOw1EV3B5m+xNguzCZErhV8T18PhTLVWocn6BwBUKCKYaRi+CO7+1yFwzAu!gsJdof8LEgbF6B6fqjlCSELZvi+Yag6I5JbPHurvq112pCddTrGC+s0w3e2yjeVr1tCAghNoYmyN!2Q== X-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@mpowercom.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!intern1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp.mpowercom.net!news.mpowercom.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151285 "Keith R. Williams" wrote in message news:MPG.19d0c91db4032542989a62@enews.newsguy.com... > This was exactly the "hanky-panky" I was referring to in the Alaska > statehood deal. However, what was the problem with Nevada?. The > implication was that there weren't enough citizens to form a state (or > have a representative?). As stated, it was clearly wrong. > As I recall from state history class (30 years ago) the problem was a policy at the time that territories had to have a certain population size before being considered for statehood, the size more or less based on whatever Congress had set for number of representatives. Outside of the Comstock area (i.e. Virginia City) Nevada was virtually deserted, not unlike today where the rural areas are still sparsely populated. Even worse, the population in Nevada was largely based on miners in boomtowns that could disappear overnight. There was a very real apprehension that once the silver ran out the population of the state might be reduced to a handful of ranchers. But Lincoln desperately needed two more Republican senators to get his Reconstruction plan through Congress. Short term expediency won the day. Something like that did happen at the end of the 1800's, when the price of silver dropped (caused by paper money replacing silver dollars) and the economy in the state collapsed. The infamous "silver legislature" where politicians were up for sale to not only the highest but any bidder set new lows for corruption. Jack Peacock ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:12:53 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <1g1dtgc.1wpkkcima3xbwN%proto@panix.com> References: <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1063743185 1485 166.84.199.79 (16 Sep 2003 20:13:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:13:05 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151288 Jim wrote: > Bruce B. Reynolds wrote: > > In article <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com>, > > arargh309NOSPAM@NOW.AT.arargh.com writes: > > > > > >>Check out a map of riverside, IL. There are only 2 or 3 straight > >>streets (not counting the border streets) in the whole town, and they > >>parallel the tracks. The guy who laid out that town had no use for a > >>straight edge. Intentionally, if I remember what I heard correctly. > > > > > > The "guy" was Frederick Law Olmstead, designer also of New > > York's Central Park, Brooklyn's Prospect Park, Boston's Fenway, > > the initial plan for the University of California in Berkeley, etc. > > The situation addressed by the design of Riverside was that the > > plot of land was a flat and very poorly drained prairie. By not > > following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some > > typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage > > and curved streets. One hundred and twenty years of subsequent > > gardening and arboring hides the fact that the area was once > > not much more than a marsh. The railroad tracks were there > > previous to the development, and the development was a speculative > > undertaking based on the fact that the railroad had established > > an express train stop at what is now the Riverside station. > > -- > > Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA > > > Yet another waterfowl habitat despoiled. I demand that it be turned > back into a marsh immediately, and I want Washington returned to > the original 'fetid malarial swamp' that it once was. At one time, > Washington was a diplomatic 'hardship post.' > > Jim It isn't, now? Could have fooled me. -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 16:12:54 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1g1dtiu.1mko1xq1yscg1zN%proto@panix.com> References: <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1063743186 1485 166.84.199.79 (16 Sep 2003 20:13:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:13:06 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b2 (Mac OS 8.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151292 Bruce B. Reynolds wrote: > By not > following the Chicago grid, Olmstead and Vaux forced some > typography on the area, which lead to both better drainage > and curved streets. How does laying out the streets force topography on the land? If it's flat before laying out streets leaves it flat afterward. Unless you build some hills or something. -- The last temptation is the highest treason: To do the right thing for the wrong reason. --T..S. Eliot Walter ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Niklas Karlsson Subject: Re: post-doomsday computing References: <3F4696A2.CAE850F4@ev1.net> <3F510AF6.76DD4A2D@ev1.net> <20030831105128257+1200@news.inv.ihug.co.nz> <3F516249.4F60978A@airmail.net> <3F51BAB0.967437B0@ev1.net> <3F5E09BB.19663A74@post9.tele.dk> <3F5EEC41.87929277@ev1.net> <3F5F1DA7.8E3C312A@post9.tele.dk> <4c306124aedave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <3f60de06.611154846@News.CIS.DFN.DE> <2q98b.419606$o%2.190543@sccrnsc02> <5wb8b.135802$0v4.9925363@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <86n2mvcakut4jn9t8400dlcletu6c5pnt2@4ax.com> <20030914162500.11891.00000802@mb-m11.aol.com> <1g1dtiu.1mko1xq1yscg1zN%proto@panix.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Darwin) Date: 16 Sep 2003 20:15:26 GMT Lines: 13 Organization: Zen Internet NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.69.19.230 X-Trace: 1063743326 lovejoy.zen.co.uk 10960 82.69.19.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zen.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff2.ethz.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!lovejoy.zen.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:151249 In article <1g1dtiu.1mko1xq1yscg1zN%proto@panix.com>, Walter Bushell wrote: > > How does laying out the streets force topography on the land? If it's > flat before laying out streets leaves it flat afterward. Perhaps what was meant was in fact 'topology'? Niklas -- >I never understood how field service dealt with mainframe cables. They were >fat, clumsy and didn't look like they wanted to bend at all. Are you talking about the cables or the FSE? -- BAH and Michael Roach in a.f.c