From: dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 25 May 2003 00:33:57 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 6 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138456 I'm interested in making some logic gates from vacuum tubes as demonstration pieces. Does anyone here have any advice on doing this? -- David Griffith ###### Message-ID: <3ED03AF5.D50A1D97@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1053826934 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 25 May 2003 01:42:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:42:14 GMT Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:42:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138930 dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu wrote: > > I'm interested in making some logic gates from vacuum tubes as > demonstration pieces. Does anyone here have any advice on doing this? > Can you get some IBM 704 schematics??? -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: J Forbes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:45:20 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.bf.21.fa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 25 May 2003 01:44:00 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138797 dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu wrote: > I'm interested in making some logic gates from vacuum tubes as > demonstration pieces. Does anyone here have any advice on doing this? > > No.... but you can go to my home page (url in my sig), and then to "comptuers/electronics" link, then to "tube digital clock" link, and see a little about a wierd tube counter made into a clock...even some schematics there iirc. But this is all pulse operated stuff, so it's rather tricky to make it do what you want. You might also search for info on the Muniac tube computer, which was built recently. http://www.travelnotes.de/computer/vcfe/muniac.htm gives an overview. -- Jim Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 ###### Message-ID: <3ED17514.483F39DB@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 02:43:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.171.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1053916990 12.90.171.159 (Mon, 26 May 2003 02:43:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 02:43:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138394 dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu wrote: > > I'm interested in making some logic gates from vacuum tubes as > demonstration pieces. Does anyone here have any advice on doing this? Most multi-gridded vacuum tubes had purposes other than control for the extra grids, but tubes like the 6sa7 or 6be6 implemented an oscillator and a mixer, so could be quite handily used as two input gates. There were some other special purpose bulbs built for such purposes, but they would be hard to find. With tubes you want to keep the bottle count down. Counting flip-flops are neatly implemented with dual triodes and 6aL5 diodes for input pulse steering. Violent voltage swings on the grid negative voltage divider end can handle resets etc. Of course you can implement the equivalent of DTL with just diodes and a single triode. It has been a while since I even thought about these circuits :-) -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 00:24:35 -0400 Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Lines: 12 Sender: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Message-ID: References: <3ED17514.483F39DB@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p31tc2.std.dialup.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1053923116 28947 134.117.137.232 (26 May 2003 04:25:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 May 2003 04:25:16 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Given-From: "Heinz Wiggeshoff" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138706 "CBFalconer" wrote in message news:3ED17514.483F39DB@yahoo.com... ... > It has been a while since I even thought about these circuits :-) No kidding. How long has it been since Heathkit went mams up? Guess I'll never even SEE an H8, nevermind build one. Sheisen. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <3ED17514.483F39DB@yahoo.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 26 May 2003 08:31:57 GMT Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust88.tnt29.lnd3.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1053937917 news.dial.pipex.com 959 62.188.120.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138468 On Mon, 26 May 2003 02:43:10 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: >With tubes you want to keep the bottle count down. Counting >flip-flops are neatly implemented with dual triodes and 6aL5 >diodes for input pulse steering. Violent voltage swings on the >grid negative voltage divider end can handle resets etc. > >Of course you can implement the equivalent of DTL with just diodes >and a single triode. > I built a few of this type of thing when I was at school (late '50s). With little neons to show what was going on. >It has been a while since I even thought about these circuits :-) Me too... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### Sender: gregm@europa.pienet Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: From: Greg Menke Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 26 May 2003 09:10:33 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.158.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1053954633 162.33.158.68 (Mon, 26 May 2003 09:10:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:10:33 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138578 dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu writes: > I'm interested in making some logic gates from vacuum tubes as > demonstration pieces. Does anyone here have any advice on doing this? > One good approach might be to find a real bookstore (not a Borders/Barnes & Nobel), that has a decent selection of used books. You'll know the place when you find it; horribly overcrowded shelves, musty smell, a cat or two lurking in the corners. In the electronics section you may well find some old EE texts, ARRL handbooks, etc. My father lucked into a US Navy electrical engineering textbook that details a bunch of circuits both with transistors and tubes. It should be straightforward to find examples of tube based and/or gates. However, if you've not built circuits before, it might be easier if you first tried with transistors. Tubes are a little more difficult to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. Gregm ###### From: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:18:34 -0400 Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Lines: 9 Sender: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p28tc2.std.dialup.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1053955156 29259 134.117.137.229 (26 May 2003 13:19:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 May 2003 13:19:16 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Given-From: "Heinz Wiggeshoff" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138699 "Greg Menke" wrote in message news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... > Tubes are a little more difficult > to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. Pronounced "deadly". ###### Sender: gregm@europa.pienet Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: From: Greg Menke Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 26 May 2003 11:15:40 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.33.158.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@toad.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1053962140 162.33.158.68 (Mon, 26 May 2003 11:15:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:15:40 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138596 ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > "Greg Menke" wrote in message > news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... > > Tubes are a little more difficult > > to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. > > Pronounced "deadly". Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. Gregm ###### Message-ID: <3ED231AA.41762F03@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:39:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.170.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1053974380 12.90.170.160 (Mon, 26 May 2003 18:39:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:39:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138996 Greg Menke wrote: > ... snip ... > > details a bunch of circuits both with transistors and tubes. It > should be straightforward to find examples of tube based and/or gates. > However, if you've not built circuits before, it might be easier if > you first tried with transistors. Tubes are a little more difficult > to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. Hey, I remember when I had to learn a whole new set of conventions to handle those dinky little transistors in TO5 cans, that needed negative plate voltages and positive grid bias voltages :-) And the signal swings were so small - the breadboards stopped biting when a finger slipped. I could hardly tell that the power was on anymore. Never mind that input impedances were suddenly low. Who ever heard of worrying about temperature and base leakage currents with good old grids, cathodes, plates and such easily understandable things. What happend to mu and gm? What's this alpha/beta crap. How are you supposed to vet the things with no filament glow? And they are expensive - a single transistor is likely to cost well over a dollar, while I can get a dual triode for 15 to 25 cents. How am I supposed to build voltage regulators - the 2A3 won't pass these monstrous currents. Heat sinks? Never needed them before. More foolish expense. Maybe the military will use this expensive stuff, but it will never fly in consumerland. How am I expected to switch 100 plus volts to drive Nixies? -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: J Forbes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:46:02 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3ED231AA.41762F03@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.bf.20.7e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 26 May 2003 18:44:38 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <3ED231AA.41762F03@yahoo.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!207.217.77.102!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138833 CBFalconer wrote: > needed them before. More foolish expense. Maybe the military > will use this expensive stuff, but it will never fly in > consumerland. How am I expected to switch 100 plus volts to drive > Nixies? > The problem I've had is figuring out how to drive nixies with a tube circuit...it's not self-evident! Driving NE-2s is easy, because they fire at a much lower voltage, and draw much less current than Nixies. If you have some ideas, please let me know...I'd love to get my digital tube clock to have a Nixie minute display! I have a few biquinary ZM1030s to play with. -- Jim Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 26 May 03 14:29:35 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-920.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139028 In article gregm-news@toadmail.com (Greg Menke) writes: > ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > >> "Greg Menke" wrote in message >> news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... >> >>> Tubes are a little more difficult >>> to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. >> >> Pronounced "deadly". > > Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games > with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. Replying to the original poster, check out the January 1965 issue of QST magazine. (Is there an ARRL archive?) I used the schematics there to build flip-flops with 12AU7s, which were read out on NE-2s. Unfortunately, the circuits were sensitive enough to the neon bulbs' ionization potential that they would only run in the dark. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 19:03:36 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 41 Message-ID: <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr195.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1053994007 7708 209.100.226.195 (27 May 2003 00:06:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:06:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.online.be!216.170.153.135.MISMATCH!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139048 On 26 May 03 14:29:35 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article gregm-news@toadmail.com >(Greg Menke) writes: > >> ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: >> >>> "Greg Menke" wrote in message >>> news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... >>> >>>> Tubes are a little more difficult >>>> to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. >>> >>> Pronounced "deadly". >> >> Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games >> with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. > >Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. I once had a car radio, where, AFAIK, the tubes ran with 12v on the plates. There was no hv vibrator can that I ever found. This was out of a 1957 Plymouth. OTOH, 250 v is pretty wimpy when you get into large transmitter finals. > >Replying to the original poster, check out the January 1965 issue >of QST magazine. (Is there an ARRL archive?) I used the schematics >there to build flip-flops with 12AU7s, which were read out on NE-2s. >Unfortunately, the circuits were sensitive enough to the neon bulbs' >ionization potential that they would only run in the dark. -- Arargh at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com Basic Compiler Samples Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/basic.html To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 27 May 2003 00:31:26 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1053995486 108 134.117.136.30 (27 May 2003 00:31:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 2003 00:31:26 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139026 "Charlie Gibbs" (cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid) writes: > In article gregm-news@toadmail.com > (Greg Menke) writes: > >> ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: >> >>> "Greg Menke" wrote in message >>> news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... >>> >>>> Tubes are a little more difficult >>>> to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. >>> >>> Pronounced "deadly". >> >> Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games >> with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. > > Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that > were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built > tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. > > Replying to the original poster, check out the January 1965 issue > of QST magazine. (Is there an ARRL archive?) I used the schematics > there to build flip-flops with 12AU7s, which were read out on NE-2s. > Unfortunately, the circuits were sensitive enough to the neon bulbs' > ionization potential that they would only run in the dark. > You can get QST on CDROM, and unless it's changed, you could also get specific back issues in paper for a fee. If they don't have the issue, they would gladly photocopy the article for a fee. http://www.arrl.org Is that article a frequency counter? There were a few described using tubes, and not just in QST. Also, there were a few electronic keyer construction articles that used some fancy logic, and might be informative. I have no specific dates, though. Michael ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 27 May 2003 00:36:01 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1053995761 813 134.117.136.30 (27 May 2003 00:36:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 2003 00:36:01 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139029 (ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com) writes: > On 26 May 03 14:29:35 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" > wrote: > >>Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >>were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >>tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. > I once had a car radio, where, AFAIK, the tubes ran with 12v on the > plates. There was no hv vibrator can that I ever found. This was out > of a 1957 Plymouth. > I'm pretty certain those were specifically designed for low voltate on the plates. They came at a time when transistors were coming in, and they often appeared in "hybrid" radios, ie low voltage tubes with audio stages being transistorized. There were also some military surplus which used tubes runing at low voltages, but I can't remember if they were Korean era or went back to WWII. There was also a Nuvistor designed for low voltage plate operation. But you're right, one could also run regular tubes at low voltage. Sometimes for novelty, "look I've got my tube oscillator running off two nine-volt batteries" but sometimes for a specific reason, none of which I can remember at this time. Michael ###### From: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:46:52 -0400 Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Lines: 19 Sender: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p10tc1.std.dialup.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1053996453 2317 134.117.137.163 (27 May 2003 00:47:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 May 2003 00:47:33 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Given-From: "Heinz Wiggeshoff" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139024 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid... > Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that > were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built > tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. > > Replying to the original poster, check out the January 1965 issue > of QST magazine. (Is there an ARRL archive?) I used the schematics > there to build flip-flops with 12AU7s, which were read out on NE-2s. ... And at age 15, (being immortal), I'd've helped you. Breathing solder fumes firms up the lungs for the real thing - "Player's and pleasure go together". There's a lot to be said when you can feel the heat of the logic. B-) ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:17:38 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr195.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1053998447 13342 209.100.226.195 (27 May 2003 01:20:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 01:20:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139062 On 27 May 2003 00:36:01 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) wrote: > (ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com) writes: >> On 26 May 03 14:29:35 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" >> wrote: >> > >>>Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >>>were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >>>tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. >> I once had a car radio, where, AFAIK, the tubes ran with 12v on the >> plates. There was no hv vibrator can that I ever found. This was out >> of a 1957 Plymouth. >> >I'm pretty certain those were specifically designed for low voltate on >the plates. They came at a time when transistors were coming in, and >they often appeared in "hybrid" radios, ie low voltage tubes with >audio stages being transistorized. I think maybe so. ISTR they had odd ball numbers. All 12xxx types in 7 or 9 pin minature. > >There were also some military surplus which used tubes runing at >low voltages, but I can't remember if they were Korean era or >went back to WWII. I might still have some surplus WWII equipment. However, all that I ever had used dynamotors - DC to DC motor generator sets. > >There was also a Nuvistor designed for low voltage plate operation. > >But you're right, one could also run regular tubes at low voltage. >Sometimes for novelty, "look I've got my tube oscillator running off >two nine-volt batteries" but sometimes for a specific reason, none >of which I can remember at this time. Doesn't that screw up the tubes gain or some such? -- Arargh at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com Basic Compiler Samples Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/basic.html To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. ###### From: J Forbes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:28:02 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.bf.20.3e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 27 May 2003 03:26:38 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139043 ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote: > On 26 May 03 14:29:35 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" > wrote: >>In article gregm-news@toadmail.com >>(Greg Menke) writes: >>>ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: >>>>"Greg Menke" wrote in message >>>>news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... >>>>>Tubes are a little more difficult >>>>>to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. >>>> >>>>Pronounced "deadly". >>> >>>Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games >>>with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. >> >>Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >>were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >>tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. I haven't killed myself yet...we played with tube gear when I was a kid, and I'm playing with it again, and I've always respected high voltage. I think my brother got bit by a flyback on a TV once when he was maybe 15, but I never got zapped that I can recall. He's been into designing high voltage switching supplies to run CRTs and Nixies recently....it's a different game now with the power converter chips that are available for modern consumer electronics. No big fat heavy transformers and huge capacitors. > I once had a car radio, where, AFAIK, the tubes ran with 12v on the > plates. There was no hv vibrator can that I ever found. This was out > of a 1957 Plymouth. The 61 Chevy "standard" radio had low plate voltage tubes, with one big power transistor on the back for the output stage. The pushbutton version of the same radio was all solid state! and the 59 Chevy truck radios still used a vibrator. -- Jim Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 ###### Message-ID: <3ED3246C.FC6D086F@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1054017775 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 27 May 2003 06:42:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 06:42:55 GMT Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 06:42:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139057 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that > were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built > tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. > Reminds me of something I heard about Thomas Edison. A new worker in Edison's lab asked what the lab rules were. Edison said: "Rules!!! There aren't any rules around here...we're trying to get something done!!!" -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sat, 31 May 03 10:11:53 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> <3ED7C16C.5A9CF69@earthlink.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYMvEABV0ln5UlCxvA05bXbz6MFnmtR8IhH1miyIb0BgRKCnQtgwpse X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2003 12:12:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-147 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139299 In article <3ED7C16C.5A9CF69@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: > > >Michael Black wrote: > >> jchausler (jchausler@earthlink.net) writes: >> >> They didn't have "dummies" back in the days of tubes. >> > >> > Oh they had "dummies", its just that the "high voltages" >> > in the tube circuits tended to eliminate them sooner........ >> > >> I don't believe that one bit. Where are the artificats that >> show the passage of dummies through that era? I felt pretty >> lucky when I found a copy of "Radiotron Designer's Handbook" >> for two dollars at a university used book sale. But I've >> yet to see "Radiotron Designer's Handbook for Dummies", or >> "The Idiot's Guide to Radio Engineering" or even "Telephone >> Theory and Practice for the non-Nerd". I've never seen them, >> I've never seen reference to them, hence I'm pretty certain >> such books don't exist. > >In one sense you're right, the number of dummies was >self limited. The reason for not finding any books for >dummies is that in order to be successful at publishing >books for dummies, there had to be a sufficient number >of dummies to by the books. Nowadays, the "dummy" >plays around with his circuits, gets a small spark and >some smoke and then decides he needs to read up on >the subject. Back then, with tube circuits, the "dummy" >plays around with his circuits and ZORCH turns himself >into a spark followed by smoke and there's no "dummy" >left to decide he needs to read up on the subject. Any >business plan to publish books for dummies (at least >in the area of circuit design) would have thus been laughed >out of the bank. No loan, no publishing company, no >book.....(Must be Friday afternoon :-) That was beaaauuutiful. Sounds like it should be a dictionary entry. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:36:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.178.98.85 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1054049807 63.178.98.85 (Tue, 27 May 2003 08:36:47 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 08:36:47 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139158 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> Pronounced "deadly". > > > > Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games > > with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. > > Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that > were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built > tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. Even "Real Boys", I recall a tube radio circuit published by the Boy Scouts. It was not "low voltage". > Replying to the original poster, check out the January 1965 issue > of QST magazine. (Is there an ARRL archive?) I used the schematics > there to build flip-flops with 12AU7s, which were read out on NE-2s. > Unfortunately, the circuits were sensitive enough to the neon bulbs' > ionization potential that they would only run in the dark. Nothing new, I always work in the dark, where God intended I work.... Back OT, one might check one's local library. I recall taking several books out of the library on logic design using tubes in the early 60's. Now, of course, these may no longer be available, but you might be surprised what your local library (assuming its a "main library") has stored away in the "stacks". I've found technical manuals from the 1880's on occasion. They might not be in "circulation condition", but you probably can read them on site. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:21:26 -0400 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 56kdialup107.ncounty.net X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1054055793 29955 208.244.111.107 (27 May 2003 17:16:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:16:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139231 > I'm interested in making some logic gates from vacuum tubes as > demonstration pieces. Does anyone here have any advice on doing this? > Read one or more of the following: Seely, Samuel, PhD., "Electron-Tube Circuits", McGraw-Hill, 1950, especially chapters 18 through 21. Pettit, Joseph M., PhD., "Electronic Switching, Timing, and Pulse Circuits", McGraw-Hill, 1959, Library of Congress catalog #59-9992. Littauer, Raphael, "Pulse Electronics", McGraw-Hill, 1965, Library of Congress catalog #64-22195. Soisson, Harold E., "Electronic Measuring Instruments", McGraw-Hill, 1961, Library of Congress catalog #60-16639, especially chapters 11 through 13. Malmstadt, H. V., C. G. Enke and E. C. Toren, Jr, "Electronics for Scientists", W. A. Benjamin, Inc., 1962, Library of Congress catalog #62-15645, especially chapter 9. Also, Taub, Schilling, Millman, Strauss and Schwartz, alone and in various combinations, published several textbooks in a series edited by Terman with McGraw-Hill post WWII. An excellent book in that series is Strauss, Leonard, "Wave Generation and Shaping", McGraw-Hill, 2nd ed. 1970, ISBN 07-062161-6. My library contains only the 2nd. edition, which is all transistors, but I believe the first edition, from 1960, is mostly tubes. If you want to see how it was done with relays, see Keister, William, Alistair E. Ritchie and Seth H. Washburn, "The Design of Switching Circuits", D. Van Nostrand Company, Inc., 1951. And if you want to see how analog computers built from tubes worked, see Korn, Granino A., PhD., and Theresa M. Korn, M.S., "Electronic Analog Computers", McGraw-Hill, 2nd. ed. 1956, Library of Congress catalog #56-8176. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 27 May 2003 17:29:48 GMT Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-189-82.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1054056588 news.dial.pipex.com 10627 62.241.189.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139207 On Mon, 26 May 2003 19:03:36 -0500, ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote: >I once had a car radio, where, AFAIK, the tubes ran with 12v on the >plates. There was no hv vibrator can that I ever found. This was out >of a 1957 Plymouth. There were several valves (tubes) specially designed to run 12V on the plates. 12AC6, 12BL6 and 12AD6 for example - designed for car radios. Also space-charge tubes designed to run at low plate voltages have been around since the '20s. I've been experimenting with using more modern tubes this way. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### Message-ID: <3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net> From: CJT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> In-Reply-To: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.67.196.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr28.news.prodigy.com 1054059619 ST000 67.67.196.11 (Tue, 27 May 2003 13:20:19 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:20:19 CDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: OPYCR\WD_JSWRV@R[KAF]ODD[[UTB_LILIXNMVMHQYUJUZ]CCVWCPG[YMDXZH^[K[FFQZHBM@FX\NJOCW^TGNQLFRFU_HSDIHX[FCUWCXLP@PBL\BKFXXVGCM\CCKFVL_T[GJLBM@Q^]WKGS]T]M^NG_YKYVGV_IJYXS@MCBT[@JPRXECDFZMSXG]NVQQTJL Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:20:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!rip!news.webusenet.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr28.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139125 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article gregm-news@toadmail.com > (Greg Menke) writes: > > >>ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: >> >> >>>"Greg Menke" wrote in message >>>news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... >>> >>> >>>>Tubes are a little more difficult >>>>to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. >>> >>>Pronounced "deadly". >> >>Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games >>with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. > > > Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that > were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built > tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. > > Replying to the original poster, check out the January 1965 issue > of QST magazine. (Is there an ARRL archive?) I used the schematics > there to build flip-flops with 12AU7s, which were read out on NE-2s. > Unfortunately, the circuits were sensitive enough to the neon bulbs' > ionization potential that they would only run in the dark. > > -- > /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) > \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. > X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. > / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! > I'm not sure you even need the tubes -- as I recall, one can construct a rudimentary flip-flop out of NE-2s and a few passive components. ###### Message-ID: <3ED3ACC5.6080702@prodigy.net> From: CJT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.67.196.11 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr28.news.prodigy.com 1054059710 ST000 67.67.196.11 (Tue, 27 May 2003 13:21:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:21:50 CDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: OPYCR\WD_JSWRV@R[KAF]ODD[[UTB_LILIXNMVMHQYUJUZ]CCVWCPG[YMDXZH^[K[FFQZHBM@FX\NJOCW^TGNQLFRFU_HSDIHX[FCUWCXLP@PBL\BKFXXVGCM\CCKFVL_T[GJLBM@Q^]WKGS]T]M^NG_YKYVGV_IJYXS@MCBT[@JPRXECDFZMSXG]NVQQTJL Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:21:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!206.252.192.28.MISMATCH!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.156.MISMATCH!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!207.115.63.142!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr28.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139122 Michael Black wrote: > (ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com) writes: > >>On 26 May 03 14:29:35 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" >>wrote: >> > > >>>Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >>>were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >>>tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. >> >>I once had a car radio, where, AFAIK, the tubes ran with 12v on the >>plates. There was no hv vibrator can that I ever found. This was out >>of a 1957 Plymouth. >> > > I'm pretty certain those were specifically designed for low voltate on > the plates. They came at a time when transistors were coming in, and > they often appeared in "hybrid" radios, ie low voltage tubes with > audio stages being transistorized. > > There were also some military surplus which used tubes runing at > low voltages, but I can't remember if they were Korean era or > went back to WWII. > > There was also a Nuvistor designed for low voltage plate operation. > > But you're right, one could also run regular tubes at low voltage. > Sometimes for novelty, "look I've got my tube oscillator running off > two nine-volt batteries" but sometimes for a specific reason, none > of which I can remember at this time. > > Michael > Slap a dynamotor on the back and do it right! ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:16:36 +0100 Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.153.25.108 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1054066682 4693671 194.153.25.108 (16 [161127]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.153.25.108!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139756 In article <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid>, "Charlie Gibbs" in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >In article gregm-news@toadmail.com >(Greg Menke) writes: > >> ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: >> >>> "Greg Menke" wrote in message >>> news:m365nxj1km.fsf@europa.pienet... >>> >>>> Tubes are a little more difficult >>>> to manage and their operating voltages somewhat inconvienent. >>> >>> Pronounced "deadly". >> >> Only if you run them up at full blast. Its easy enough to play games >> with tubes down at 20 to 30 volts. > >Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. About 600V for 807s, 1000V for 813s. Frightening, the things I did as a teeny. > >Replying to the original poster, check out the January 1965 issue >of QST magazine. (Is there an ARRL archive?) I used the schematics >there to build flip-flops with 12AU7s, which were read out on NE-2s. >Unfortunately, the circuits were sensitive enough to the neon bulbs' >ionization potential that they would only run in the dark. Also note the use of 6AS6s as phantastron dividers. I used that circuit at work for time marker blips on a valve analogue computer. Regards, David P. ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 28 May 2003 02:11:37 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1054087897 7232 134.117.136.30 (28 May 2003 02:11:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 2003 02:11:37 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139423 David Powell (ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk) writes: > In article <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid>, > "Charlie Gibbs" in alt.folklore.computers > wrote: > >>Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >>were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >>tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. > > About 600V for 807s, 1000V for 813s. Frightening, the things I did > as a teeny. > I learned pretty early on the danger of high voltage. I was doing something with a Command Set transmitter, which had a pair of 1629's (or something like that) which were a military version of the 807. I did touch something I shouldn't have, and my arm flies off. I bang my elbow against a hard surface, and that hurt. I was 12 at the time, and have no desire for that to happen again, so I am relatively careful. Of course, it helps that I got into the hobby in 1971, right on the cusp where solid state became standard, so I never used tubes all that much. Michael ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 28 May 2003 09:40:32 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1054140032 20011 127.0.0.1 (28 May 2003 16:40:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 2003 16:40:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139689 CJT wrote in message news:<3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net>... > I'm not sure you even need the tubes -- as I recall, one can construct > a rudimentary flip-flop out of NE-2s and a few passive components. A cool NE-2 circuit is the divide-by-five counter/oscillator at http://members.misty.com/don/sillyne2.html It'll run for a year or two from a stack of 20 9-V batteries. What I miss are the 45 and 90V B+ batteries at the farm supply store. Tim. ###### From: "Kevin G. Rhoads" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:43:32 -0400 Organization: Physics and Astronomy Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3ED4E734.ECF45A46@alum.mit.edu> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1w55821.kiewit.dartmouth.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU 1054140180 24930 129.170.26.218 (28 May 2003 16:43:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@Dartmouth.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 May 2003 16:43:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!news.bu.edu!newshost.Dartmouth.EDU!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139142 >I haven't killed myself yet...we played with tube gear when I was a kid, >and I'm playing with it again, and I've always respected high voltage. I played with tubes as a kid also. But we learned to probe circuits using one hand at a time and with tools. These days with transistor circuits, and particularly +5 volt logic, people are accustomed to putting both hands into the circuit at the same time. That kind of reflexive action can get you killed with tube circuits. It isn't that tube circuits are dangerous and transistor circuits aren't -- it is that the kinds of precautions one needs for tube circuits aren't learned by playing with transistor circuits. And, yeah, it doesn't matter if you are using 6L6's, 2N3055's or some power FETs -- if you are building a high voltage converter, you need to use the one-hand rule &c. But jumping from TTL voltage levels to using plate voltages of 100 to 300 volts, requires resetting one's mindset. People who learned TTL don't think of logic as "high voltage", whereas people who did/do tubes do commonly tend to think of tube circuits as high voltage until proven otherwise. Sincerely Kevin ###### Message-ID: <3ED4F1F1.7030105@prodigy.net> From: CJT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4b) Gecko/20030507 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.143.165.239 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr28.news.prodigy.com 1054142955 ST000 66.143.165.239 (Wed, 28 May 2003 12:29:15 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 12:29:15 CDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJSCTS@UBR\YBRINNWP@O@QTBUDKFA_J]Q]KEYUNDQUCCNSUAACY@L[ZX__HGFD]JBJNSFXTOOGA_VWY^_HG@FW_HUTHOH]TBPGCO\P^PLP^@[GLHUK@WLECKFVL^TYG[@RMWQXIWM[SDDYWNLG_G[_BWUCHFY_Y@AS@Q[B\APPF@DCZM_PG_VSCPQZM Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:29:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr28.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139117 Tim Shoppa wrote: > CJT wrote in message news:<3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net>... > >>I'm not sure you even need the tubes -- as I recall, one can construct >>a rudimentary flip-flop out of NE-2s and a few passive components. > > > A cool NE-2 circuit is the divide-by-five counter/oscillator at > > http://members.misty.com/don/sillyne2.html > > It'll run for a year or two from a stack of 20 9-V batteries. > > What I miss are the 45 and 90V B+ batteries at the farm supply store. > > Tim. Thanks! That brings back memories. ###### Message-ID: <3ED51961.694CE3BA@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <2ia5dv0tfgdmj631n135bmbtni96ekedte@4ax.com> <3ED4E734.ECF45A46@alum.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:55:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.171.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1054155342 12.90.171.24 (Wed, 28 May 2003 20:55:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:55:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139078 "Kevin G. Rhoads" wrote: > ... snip ... > > But jumping from TTL voltage levels to using plate voltages of > 100 to 300 volts, requires resetting one's mindset. People who > learned TTL don't think of logic as "high voltage", whereas > people who did/do tubes do commonly tend to think of tube > circuits as high voltage until proven otherwise. Please fix your output line length. It should not exceed 80, but 65 is a better value. Even the TTL etc. people can get bitten. If you tend to revise breadboards with a soldering iron in one hand, a component in another, and the solder in your mouth (yeah, I know about lead, so I don't chew on it) even 5 to 12 V can announce itself fairly violently :-) This is an incentive to shut down the power. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 03:08:38 +0100 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3nqadv868a3dpctufk03jmfnpulphmgh16@4ax.com> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 102.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk (212.35.235.102) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1054174204 5835243 212.35.235.102 (16 [161127]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!102.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139751 In article , et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >David Powell (ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk) writes: >> In article <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >> "Charlie Gibbs" in alt.folklore.computers >> wrote: >> >>>Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >>>were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >>>tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. >> >> About 600V for 807s, 1000V for 813s. Frightening, the things I did >> as a teeny. >> >I learned pretty early on the danger of high voltage. I was doing >something with a Command Set transmitter, which had a pair of 1629's >(or something like that) which were a military version of the 807. > Everyone called them "12volt 807s". 1625s, I think. I've still got a couple of BC453s (aka "Q fivers") in the garage, can't bear to dump them, they're just too "nice" for recycling. Regards, David P. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 03:08:39 +0100 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 102.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk (212.35.235.102) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1054174204 5835243 212.35.235.102 (16 [161127]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!102.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139755 In article , "David Wade" in alt.folklore.computers wrote: > >"David Powell" wrote in message . >> >> About 600V for 807s, 1000V for 813s. Frightening, the things I did >> as a teeny. >> > >I think we ran 2.5Kv on an 1500A..... I was reminiscing of times long before G8s were invented / hatched... :) And dammit, there's now a whole crowd of them, transmogrified into M3s, who keep borrowing my stock of roller coasters, air-spaced variable Cs etc, to tune their 2m 8 eles as top loaded verticals on 80! Regards, David P. ###### Message-ID: <3ED595B4.825F2C23@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1054177849 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 29 May 2003 03:10:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 03:10:49 GMT Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 03:10:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139700 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > CJT wrote in message news:<3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net>... > > I'm not sure you even need the tubes -- as I recall, one can construct > > a rudimentary flip-flop out of NE-2s and a few passive components. > > A cool NE-2 circuit is the divide-by-five counter/oscillator at > > http://members.misty.com/don/sillyne2.html > > It'll run for a year or two from a stack of 20 9-V batteries. > > What I miss are the 45 and 90V B+ batteries at the farm supply store. > Ah, yes...the bad ole days!!! Back then, one could *not* buy an AM radio for a couple of bucks. You had to *really* want to listen to the radio...to go to all the trouble of getting the set and keeping good batteries in the thing. Turn it on and *wait* for the tube (filaments) to warm up. Be sure to leave some space around the back of the set for the heat from the tubes to vent off... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com (Jeff nor Lisa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 29 May 2003 10:19:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.20.71.37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1054228779 23212 127.0.0.1 (29 May 2003 17:19:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 2003 17:19:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139640 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote Are any of the following good for beginners? In other words, is there an equivalent of "Vaccum tubes for dummies"? There's a lot about electronics I don't understand. I've seen a lot of textbooks on tubes, but they usually require a pretty good understanding of electricity principles, such as the reasons capacitors and resistors and placed in a circuit with tubes. I know the basic principle of a tube is to act as a relay-- that is when a light (feeble) current is apply to a part of a tube, a stronger current is sent out using a fresh supply in proportion to the input. But I don't understand the circuitry involved with tubes, or the complex internals of most tubes. For myself, I know a resistor resists current, but I don't understand why one would put that in a circuit--after all, an amplication circuit is trying to build up a signal, not reduce it. And I know a capcitor temporarily holds power, but I don't understand why or how one would use that function in a tube circuit. (My knowledge of electricity is pretty limited to DC circuits of lamps or batteries hooked up in series or parallel.) > Read one or more of the following: > > Seely, Samuel, PhD., "Electron-Tube Circuits", McGraw-Hill, 1950, especially > chapters 18 through 21. > > Pettit, Joseph M., PhD., "Electronic Switching, Timing, and Pulse Circuits", > McGraw-Hill, 1959, Library of Congress catalog #59-9992. > > Littauer, Raphael, "Pulse Electronics", McGraw-Hill, 1965, Library of > Congress catalog #64-22195. > > Soisson, Harold E., "Electronic Measuring Instruments", McGraw-Hill, 1961, > Library of Congress catalog #60-16639, especially chapters 11 through 13. > > Malmstadt, H. V., C. G. Enke and E. C. Toren, Jr, "Electronics for > Scientists", W. A. Benjamin, Inc., 1962, Library of Congress catalog > #62-15645, especially chapter 9. > > Also, Taub, Schilling, Millman, Strauss and Schwartz, alone and in various > combinations, published several textbooks in a series edited by Terman with > McGraw-Hill post WWII. An excellent book in that series is Strauss, > Leonard, "Wave Generation and Shaping", McGraw-Hill, 2nd ed. 1970, ISBN > 07-062161-6. My library contains only the 2nd. edition, which is all > transistors, but I believe the first edition, from 1960, is mostly tubes. > > If you want to see how it was done with relays, see Keister, William, > Alistair E. Ritchie and Seth H. Washburn, "The Design of Switching > Circuits", D. Van Nostrand Company, Inc., 1951. > > And if you want to see how analog computers built from tubes worked, see > Korn, Granino A., PhD., and Theresa M. Korn, M.S., "Electronic Analog > Computers", McGraw-Hill, 2nd. ed. 1956, Library of Congress catalog > #56-8176. ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 29 May 2003 19:29:56 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1054236596 6698 134.117.136.30 (29 May 2003 19:29:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 May 2003 19:29:56 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139449 Jeff nor Lisa (hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com) writes: > "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote > > Are any of the following good for beginners? In other words, > is there an equivalent of "Vaccum tubes for dummies"? > There's a lot about electronics I don't understand. > They didn't have "dummies" back in the days of tubes. I know nothing about the books that I deleted the list of. But realistically, what you would need is something that shows you circuits, not details about designing the circuits. If you wanted to demonstrate logic today, (unless you wrote a program to simulate it on a computer) you'd get some simple logic gate ICs, and wire them together. You wouldn't need to know what's inside, just how to wire up the ground and power supply lines. You would have to understand the logic of the devices, ie this is a NAND gate and this combination of inputs cause that output, but that's it. I'm not sure it really changes if you want your logic gates to be made with tubes. Find a cookbook of circuits, and build them up as modules. An inverter here, an NAND gate there, etc. Then the situation is the same as with those ICs. Maybe there would be a little more effort building the logic modules, since there is room for wiring mistakes and out of tolerance components. But plenty of people can build at that level without going really deeply into the theory. Michael ###### From: J Forbes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:52:41 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.b1.e8.a6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 29 May 2003 19:51:13 GMT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja, ko-kr In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news.belwue.de!news.tu-darmstadt.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139595 Jeff nor Lisa wrote: > "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote > > Are any of the following good for beginners? In other words, > is there an equivalent of "Vaccum tubes for dummies"? > There's a lot about electronics I don't understand. > > I've seen a lot of textbooks on tubes, but they usually > require a pretty good understanding of electricity principles, > such as the reasons capacitors and resistors and placed in a > circuit with tubes. Try a book like: which is an auction for Air Force manual 101-8, "Fundamentals of Electronics", circa 1963. I have a copy of it. It is written to teach electronics to folks who know nothing of the subject, but have to apply it after a short education. Has some logic circuits also. The theory is pervasive, but it has examples of circuits also...lots of diagrams and charts. > I know the basic principle of a tube is to act as a relay-- > that is when a light (feeble) current is apply to a part of a tube, > a stronger current is sent out using a fresh supply in > proportion to the input. But I don't understand the circuitry > involved with tubes, or the complex internals of most tubes. In the old days, we'd break open the bad tubes we replaced when fixing the TV, and so we discovered that the internals of tubes are rather simple, really. There's a heater (filament), surrounded by a cathode with a white powdery coating on it, then the grid(s) of wire that look sort of like a fence..and the plate is the sheet metal part surrounding it all. Much easier to see and understand than the guts of a transistor or IC! > For myself, I know a resistor resists current, but I don't > understand why one would put that in a circuit--after all, > an amplication circuit is trying to build up a signal, not > reduce it. And I know a capcitor temporarily holds power, > but I don't understand why or how one would use that function > in a tube circuit. It does take time to understand it. An older, basic electronics book like I listed above would be a good place to start. Resistors allow you to control the voltage and current in different parts of the circuit. Tubes need specific voltage potentials across different parts, to function the way you want them to. Ohm's law is something you'll need to understand well when working with tubes. Capacitors can be used for different purposes, one very common one in tube circuits is to let an AC signal pass through when there is a high DC potential...such as from the plate of one tube to the grid of the next. Larger capacitors are also used to filter signals in various ways, usually in cahoots with a coil or resistor. But this gets into understanding alternating current theory... Have fun! -- Jim Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum! http://www.mindspring.com/~jforbes2 ###### Message-ID: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:25:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.175.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1054239947 12.90.175.170 (Thu, 29 May 2003 20:25:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:25:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139070 Jeff nor Lisa wrote: > ... snip ... > > I know the basic principle of a tube is to act as a relay-- > that is when a light (feeble) current is apply to a part of a tube, > a stronger current is sent out using a fresh supply in > proportion to the input. But I don't understand the circuitry > involved with tubes, or the complex internals of most tubes. Please do NOT top-post. By doing so you have lost the whole thread of discussion. Tubes do not control current with current, they control current with voltage. Negative voltage on the grid (wrt cathode) reduces the current flow to the plate (from the cathode). Other electrodes are just fillips on this basic configuration, to do such things as reduce plate-grid capacitance, etc. The fundamental specification for a tube is transconductance, usually measured in mA per volt, or millimhos. The others are Rp and u, and you only need know two of the three to get the third. All these parameters vary with operating conditions, such as bias and plate voltage. To convert the output signal (a current) into a voltage (to apply to another stage) you need to pass the output current through a resistor. This means that the plate voltage is going to vary with output current. The closest modern day equivalent is a FET. Unlike tubes, which require positive plate voltages, FETs can be built to use either positive or negative drain (plate equivalent) voltages. They can be enhancement or depletion devices, unlike tubes which can only be depletion devices (need a negative bias), and remain high impedance inputs. Put two in series (of the opposite sex) and you have a CMOS component. None of these devices is a relay; they are all analog devices. They may be used as relays by driving them to extremes, or saturation. Emitter coupled logic is an example of non-saturated switching circuitry, and is another whole area, but with good tube analogs. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:46:16 -0400 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.137 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1054255276 28772 208.244.111.137 (30 May 2003 00:41:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 00:41:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news.cse.sc.edu!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139218 > I know nothing about the books that I deleted the list of. > But realistically, what you would need is something that shows > you circuits, not details about designing the circuits. The OP was looking for information on tubes as logic elements, not a beginner's book for tubes in general, and that's a horse of a different quantum number. The best beginners' book for tubes is any edition of the RCA Receiving Tube Manual. Antique Electronics (www.tubesandmore.com) and other places sell reprints of "RC-30", the 1975 edition. The second best place to look is in a '60s or '70s edition of the Radio Amateur's Handbook. They can often be found on eBay; use "ARRL" as your search term. Information on tubes as logic elements is not easy to come by, as in their heyday tubes were generally used as linear devices for communications and entertainment. Most tube use in what today we would consider to be logic applications were in pulse amplifiers for radar, sweep circuits for television and counting circuits for instrumentation. The list of books you deleted (That's OK. Just open the posting again. The list is still there. ) are tomes in my library that pertain specifically, in whole or in part, to tubes as logic devices. The biggest difference between tube-based logic and semiconductor-based logic is in resource management. Transistors were "cheap" (now they're essentially free), both to buy and to use, so they could be used with abandon. Tubes were expensive, touchy, big and prone to failure, so tube-based logic circuitry minimized the numbers of tubes. Tube characteristics also tended to drift with time as cathode emissions decreased, and tube-to-tube variations were high (although it's a race as to how they compared with early point-contact or alloy-junction transistors), so these effects had to be taken into acocunt. Also, too, "normal" tubes run in cutoff for extended periods of time tended to suffer from "cathode poisoning" - which means they stop working after awhile - so lines of logic friendly tubes had to be developed. For example, the common 12AU7 and 12AX7 dual triodes had as logic versions the 5963 and 5965, which were the same tubes with cathodes tolerant of extended periods of cutoff. Anyone interested in tubes in general should lurk awhile on rec.audio.tubes. Yes, there are a lot of folks there from the Golden Eared crowd (also known as audiophools), but there are also a lot of knowledgable people there who are interested in tubes because they're a fascinating technology. The same goes for Vacuum Tube Vally magazine; Eric Barbour has over the years had a series of articles on tubes used in computers. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 30 May 2003 08:15:36 GMT Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust105.tnt7.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1054282536 news.dial.pipex.com 960 62.188.136.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!luth.se!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139212 On Thu, 29 May 2003 20:25:47 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: >None of these devices is a relay; they are all analog devices. >They may be used as relays by driving them to extremes, or >saturation. In the case of vacuum-state devices, that's where the British name "valve" is more descriptive - it's like a valve with a control that varies the flow of electrons, analogous to the flow of water. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### Message-ID: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:42:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.178.89.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1054305733 63.178.89.150 (Fri, 30 May 2003 07:42:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:42:13 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139171 Michael Black wrote: > Jeff nor Lisa (hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com) writes: > > "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote > > > > Are any of the following good for beginners? In other words, > > is there an equivalent of "Vaccum tubes for dummies"? > > There's a lot about electronics I don't understand. > > > > They didn't have "dummies" back in the days of tubes. Oh they had "dummies", its just that the "high voltages" in the tube circuits tended to eliminate them sooner........ Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <3ED7711F.3E184D2@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:55:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.178.89.150 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1054306511 63.178.89.150 (Fri, 30 May 2003 07:55:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:55:11 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139153 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" wrote: > The biggest difference between tube-based logic and semiconductor-based > logic is in resource management. Transistors were "cheap" (now they're > essentially free), both to buy and to use, so they could be used with > abandon. Tubes were expensive, touchy, big and prone to failure, so > tube-based logic circuitry minimized the numbers of tubes. Tube > characteristics also tended to drift with time as cathode emissions > decreased, and tube-to-tube variations were high (although it's a race as to > how they compared with early point-contact or alloy-junction transistors), > so these effects had to be taken into acocunt. Also, too, "normal" tubes > run in cutoff for extended periods of time tended to suffer from "cathode > poisoning" - which means they stop working after awhile - so lines of logic > friendly tubes had to be developed. For example, the common 12AU7 and 12AX7 > dual triodes had as logic versions the 5963 and 5965, which were the same > tubes with cathodes tolerant of extended periods of cutoff. It was not uncommon with tube circuits (and I've seen it in early transistor circuits too) to have several "stages" of logic before the result was fed to a tube for "amplification". This would be done with diode arrays, each diode array would logically be one "gate" and depending on voltage/current requirements, you could have several "gates" before the voltage/current level got down to a point where amplification was necessary. This was done, of course, to minimize tube count as they were expensive and diodes were cheap. To see what I mean about diode arrays, look at DTL logic and replace the transistor with a tube (more or less). DTL of course had one transistor after each diode array. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ > > > Anyone interested in tubes in general should lurk awhile on rec.audio.tubes. > Yes, there are a lot of folks there from the Golden Eared crowd (also known > as audiophools), but there are also a lot of knowledgable people there who > are interested in tubes because they're a fascinating technology. The same > goes for Vacuum Tube Vally magazine; Eric Barbour has over the years had a > series of articles on tubes used in computers. ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 30 May 2003 16:23:01 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1054311781 8216 134.117.136.30 (30 May 2003 16:23:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2003 16:23:01 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139420 jchausler (jchausler@earthlink.net) writes: > Michael Black wrote: > >> Jeff nor Lisa (hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com) writes: >> > "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote >> > >> > Are any of the following good for beginners? In other words, >> > is there an equivalent of "Vaccum tubes for dummies"? >> > There's a lot about electronics I don't understand. >> > >> >> They didn't have "dummies" back in the days of tubes. > > Oh they had "dummies", its just that the "high voltages" > in the tube circuits tended to eliminate them sooner........ > I don't believe that one bit. Where are the artificats that show the passage of dummies through that era? I felt pretty lucky when I found a copy of "Radiotron Designer's Handbook" for two dollars at a university used book sale. But I've yet to see "Radiotron Designer's Handbook for Dummies", or "The Idiot's Guide to Radio Engineering" or even "Telephone Theory and Practice for the non-Nerd". I've never seen them, I've never seen reference to them, hence I'm pretty certain such books don't exist. And if there are no books for dummies, then therefore there must not have been any dummies back then. Case closed. Michael ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:23:32 -0400 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.162 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1054315110 2989 208.244.111.162 (30 May 2003 17:18:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:18:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139241 > And if there are no books for dummies, then therefore there > must not have been any dummies back then. > > Case closed. > Well, Mike..., actually..., now that you mention it, I do have a book entitled "TV- It's a Cinch!", by E. Aisberg, translated by Fred Shunaman, Gernsback Library #62, 1957, Gernsback Library, Inc., Library of Congress #56-10947. "Dummies" books hadn't been invented yet back then, but if they had been, believe me, this would have been one of 'em. And I think that's the key which points out the hole in your careful reasoning: You're looking for dummy artifacts, but dummy artifacts hadn't been invented yet. That's not at all the same thing as saying there were no dummies, it's merely that the dummy marketplace had not yet been properly exploited by MBA-schooled marketing types. Neanderthals left no representational symbology around (although that's a matter of some dispute), but jes' 'cause we can't find their books it don't mean there weren't no people 'round back then. And some of them were probably dummies, too. Given that "Dummies" books hadn't yet been invented back then you must look elsewhere for evidence of dummies. And for that you need go no further than Jack Darr's monthly "Service Clinic" column in Radio-Electronics magazine. ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 30 May 2003 17:28:24 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1054315704 16319 134.117.136.30 (30 May 2003 17:28:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2003 17:28:24 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!tdsnet-transit!newspeer.tds.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139499 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" (777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777) writes: >> And if there are no books for dummies, then therefore there >> must not have been any dummies back then. >> >> Case closed. >> > > Well, Mike..., actually..., now that you mention it, I do have a book > entitled "TV- It's a Cinch!", by E. Aisberg, translated by Fred Shunaman, > Gernsback Library #62, 1957, Gernsback Library, Inc., Library of Congress > #56-10947. "Dummies" books hadn't been invented yet back then, but if they > had been, believe me, this would have been one of 'em. > [stuff deleted] I hope you do realize I was not being serious. Of course there were books for beginners. But the original reference to dummies in this thread certainly suggested one of those yellow-covered books that have become so prevalent. They have become so common that they raise "dummy-hood" to a new level, and almost suggest that there weren't that class of person before the books existed. Michael ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:41:31 -0400 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.162 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1054316188 3835 208.244.111.162 (30 May 2003 17:36:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 17:36:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!cox.net!news-xfer.cox.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139309 > I hope you do realize I was not being serious. Oops! Sorry, I forgot to make visible the fact that I'd set my irony attribute on. Darn! Be advised, it is so set currently. ###### Message-ID: <3ED7C16C.5A9CF69@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:37:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.178.89.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1054327064 63.178.89.10 (Fri, 30 May 2003 13:37:44 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:37:44 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139157 Michael Black wrote: > jchausler (jchausler@earthlink.net) writes: > >> They didn't have "dummies" back in the days of tubes. > > > > Oh they had "dummies", its just that the "high voltages" > > in the tube circuits tended to eliminate them sooner........ > > > I don't believe that one bit. Where are the artificats that > show the passage of dummies through that era? I felt pretty > lucky when I found a copy of "Radiotron Designer's Handbook" > for two dollars at a university used book sale. But I've > yet to see "Radiotron Designer's Handbook for Dummies", or > "The Idiot's Guide to Radio Engineering" or even "Telephone > Theory and Practice for the non-Nerd". I've never seen them, > I've never seen reference to them, hence I'm pretty certain > such books don't exist. In one sense you're right, the number of dummies was self limited. The reason for not finding any books for dummies is that in order to be successful at publishing books for dummies, there had to be a sufficient number of dummies to by the books. Nowadays, the "dummy" plays around with his circuits, gets a small spark and some smoke and then decides he needs to read up on the subject. Back then, with tube circuits, the "dummy" plays around with his circuits and ZORCH turns himself into a spark followed by smoke and there's no "dummy" left to decide he needs to read up on the subject. Any business plan to publish books for dummies (at least in the area of circuit design) would have thus been laughed out of the bank. No loan, no publishing company, no book.....(Must be Friday afternoon :-) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <3ED7E47C.40E6A363@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:55:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1054338938 12.90.173.166 (Fri, 30 May 2003 23:55:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 23:55:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139077 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" wrote: > ... snip ... > > Given that "Dummies" books hadn't yet been invented back then you > must look elsewhere for evidence of dummies. And for that you > need go no further than Jack Darr's monthly "Service Clinic" > column in Radio-Electronics magazine. Was that the one that usually said 'When you find a dark and charred carbon resistor, suspect that its value has changed'. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: David R Brooks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 08:40:30 +0800 Message-ID: References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: i186-044.nv.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1054341774 10175 203.59.186.44 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139103 In the UK, there was a series of books around 1962, called "Fun with..." (Short Waves, Electronics, etc.) I have a copy of "Fun with Electronics": it starts out with valve anode curves & what they mean, then a simple radio receiver using 1.4V battery valves (to limit the damage :) It then progresses (via suitable warnings) to mains-driven receiver & amplifier designs, with a couple of transistor designs also. jchausler wrote: : : :Michael Black wrote: : :> Jeff nor Lisa (hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com) writes: :> > "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote :> > :> > Are any of the following good for beginners? In other words, :> > is there an equivalent of "Vaccum tubes for dummies"? :> > There's a lot about electronics I don't understand. :> > :> :> They didn't have "dummies" back in the days of tubes. : :Oh they had "dummies", its just that the "high voltages" :in the tube circuits tended to eliminate them sooner........ : :Chris :AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE :$$ : : ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:55:03 -0400 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <3ED76E23.9F4B1EE1@earthlink.net> <3ED7E47C.40E6A363@yahoo.com> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.164 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1054342199 27705 208.244.111.164 (31 May 2003 00:49:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 00:49:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!206.252.192.28.MISMATCH!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139310 > > Was that the one that usually said 'When you find a dark and > charred carbon resistor, suspect that its value has changed'. > Ayup. And gotta make sure you get the polarity right, too. ###### From: "philo" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 05:19:18 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net> <3ED595B4.825F2C23@ev1.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!206.252.192.28.MISMATCH!news.stealth.net news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139578 > > Back then, one could *not* buy an AM radio for a couple of bucks. > You had to *really* want to listen to the radio...to go to all > the trouble of getting the set and keeping good batteries in the > thing. Turn it on and *wait* for the tube (filaments) to warm up. > Be sure to leave some space around the back of the set for the > heat from the tubes to vent off... > a few years back i restored a battery powered atwater kent the type with the cathodeless 201A tubes much to my surprise...it was "instant on" (due to no cathode of course) otoh: it took a *long* time to even tune in one station btw: there's a place in tempe,AZ called Antique Electronic Supply that sells a lot of obsolete parts (not cheaply) this thread is sure bring back the thoughts of those olden times when if you did something wrong, the components would not smoke...but your hands would!!!!! ###### Message-ID: <3ED8AB36.FE6CD467@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net> <3ED595B4.825F2C23@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:26:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.171.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1054387574 12.90.171.34 (Sat, 31 May 2003 13:26:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 13:26:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!205.215.62.125.MISMATCH!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139101 philo wrote: > > > Back then, one could *not* buy an AM radio for a couple of bucks. > > You had to *really* want to listen to the radio...to go to all > > the trouble of getting the set and keeping good batteries in the > > thing. Turn it on and *wait* for the tube (filaments) to warm up. > > Be sure to leave some space around the back of the set for the > > heat from the tubes to vent off... > > > a few years back i restored a battery powered atwater kent > the type with the cathodeless 201A tubes. much to my surprise > ...it was "instant on" (due to no cathode of course) > > otoh: it took a *long* time to even tune in one station Along with the 271A and 280. All later renamed to eliminate the 2. Earlier versions of the 01A (probably 201) had bayonet sockets, as did the UV199. They weren't instant on, just warmed up much faster with light (1.5V IIRC) filaments. Cathodes can warm up rapidly too, but deliberately didn't, so as to absorb the 60 Hz variations from AC driven heaters. The 27 and 24A (nee 227 and 224A) cathode triode and tetrode with 2.5 V heaters were the big step towards mains powered hardware. The 45 (triode) and 47 (pentode or tetrode) (nee 245/247) were the corresponding output devices, using heavy filaments rather than cathodes. Filaments are cathodes, but suffer from varying potential along themselves. The prime time for all these was actually before my prime time! That made them cheap, obsolete, and available when I was a juvenile (at least more so than now). -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: "philo" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:02:30 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED3AC6A.8090808@prodigy.net> <3ED595B4.825F2C23@ev1.net> <3ED8AB36.FE6CD467@yahoo.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139580 > > Along with the 271A and 280. All later renamed to eliminate the > 2. Earlier versions of the 01A (probably 201) had bayonet > sockets, as did the UV199. They weren't instant on, just warmed > up much faster with light (1.5V IIRC) filaments. Cathodes can > warm up rapidly too, but deliberately didn't, so as to absorb the > 60 Hz variations from AC driven heaters. although i'm sure they were not really "instant on" it was quick enough so i couldn't tell the difference. btw: the original 01 tubes had a filament draw of 1 amp the (2)01A had just .25 amp draw ! even when i was a kid, all that stuff was totally obsolete... but we used to get a real kick out of studying those old schematics and seeing that the volume control merely was a resistor in series with the tube filament! ###### From: "Kevin G. Rhoads" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 14:04:07 -0400 Organization: Physics and Astronomy Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu> References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1w55821.kiewit.dartmouth.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU 1054490635 1972 129.170.26.181 (1 Jun 2003 18:03:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@Dartmouth.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2003 18:03:55 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!elk.ncren.net!news.bu.edu!newshost.Dartmouth.EDU!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139134 >Unlike tubes, which >require positive plate voltages, FETs can be built to use either >positive or negative drain It is possible to build a tube for negative plate voltages; just make it out of antimatter and boil positrons off the cathode. However, integrating those with conventional tubes poses a non-trivial problem -- everything must be kept separate and you can use only aircore or capacitive coupling. "You canna mix matter and antimatter cold!" -- Scotty ###### From: "Kevin G. Rhoads" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 14:05:40 -0400 Organization: Physics and Astronomy Lines: 3 Message-ID: <3EDA4074.39F622A7@alum.mit.edu> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: d1w55821.kiewit.dartmouth.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: merrimack.Dartmouth.EDU 1054490727 1972 129.170.26.181 (1 Jun 2003 18:05:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@Dartmouth.EDU NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2003 18:05:27 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!elk.ncren.net!news.bu.edu!newshost.Dartmouth.EDU!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139135 >and going back to 100watts Now that's truly jaded, when 100W is QRP! ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> <3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu> Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Lines: 11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: <77GCa.45$tZ3.3@news.get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:44:50 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.193.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1054551619 129.142.193.202 (Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:00:19 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:00:19 CEST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!luth.se!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139798 "Kevin G. Rhoads" skrev i en meddelelse news:3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu... > >Unlike tubes, which > >require positive plate voltages, FETs can be built to use either > >positive or negative drain Not quite negative voltages, but there used to be a ECC81 type (12AT7) which could work with just +12 on the plates ! Nico (OZ1BMC) ###### Message-ID: <3EDB6BD7.537FF82E@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> <3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu> <77GCa.45$tZ3.3@news.get2net.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:00:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.170.235 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1054569628 12.90.170.235 (Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:00:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 16:00:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peer01.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139782 Nico de Jong wrote: > > > >Unlike tubes, which > > >require positive plate voltages, FETs can be built to use either > > >positive or negative drain > > Not quite negative voltages, but there used to be a ECC81 type > (12AT7) which could work with just +12 on the plates ! I used to consider them a cross between a 12AU7 (low u) and a 12AX7 (high u). If the circuit works with any of the three plugged in, it can be considered tube characteristic independant :-) I think they, or a low noise equivalent, were preferred for low level preamplifiers. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:56:25 -0700 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> <3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu> <77GCa.45$tZ3.3@news.get2net.dk> <3EDB6BD7.537FF82E@yahoo.com> X-Trace: lenny.tc.umn.edu 1054580176 27856 160.94.172.8 (2 Jun 2003 18:56:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lenny.tc.umn.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!lenny.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139822 There's been a bit of misinformation drifting into this topic, not unusual for such an obscure topic. A few corrections: > Along with the 271A and 280. All later renamed to eliminate the > 2. Not quite, the "2" was a prefix to designate the manufacturer, same thing goes on with IC's nowadays. Texas INstruments puts "SN" in front of their 7400's, National IIRC used "N", Fairchild "F". Earlier versions of the 01A (probably 201) had bayonet > sockets, as did the UV199. They weren't instant on, just warmed > up much faster with light (1.5V IIRC) filaments. Most tubes had filaments that could be run off a number of lead-acid cells, minus a bit for a filament control rheostat. So your basic 01A was spec'd at 5 volts, to be run off three lead-acid cells in series (6 volts) and a series rheostat. >Cathodes can > warm up rapidly too, but deliberately didn't, so as to absorb the > 60 Hz variations from AC driven heaters. This is a myth, even the thinnest cathode keeps emitting for many seconds. No need to artificially increase the time constant. Same for filaments, they ad a bit of hum, but not due to the thermals. > Tube >characteristics also tended to drift with time as cathode emissions >decreased, and tube-to-tube variations were high (although it's a race as to >how they compared with early point-contact or alloy-junction transistors). Tubes have much less variation than transistors! Look at a few spec sheets, tubes geenrally hold to plus or minus 25% on gain, transistors right off the line have 200-300% variations in gain! The ones with tighter specs are no different, they've just been measured and sorted into various gain bins. >Not quite negative voltages, but there used to be a ECC81 type (12AT7) which >could work with just +12 on the plates ! Quite a few tubes have a surprising amount of ability at +12 volts, but the 12AT7 was not specifically designed for this. There *was* a whole line of tubes designed to run off 12 volts, intended for car radios where eliminating the 12V to high voltage converter would save many many bucks. They're mostly in the 12F.... series. Available for pennies nowdays as nobody wants them. I see now my comments seem excessively picky, but so be it! --- George ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> <3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu> <77GCa.45$tZ3.3@news.get2net.dk> <3EDB6BD7.537FF82E@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Lines: 10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 21:36:21 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.193.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1054582896 129.142.193.202 (Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:41:36 CEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:41:36 CEST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!luth.se!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139804 > >Cathodes can > > warm up rapidly too, but deliberately didn't, so as to absorb the > > 60 Hz variations from AC driven heaters. Wasnt there a series of tubes with direct heated cathodes ? I seem to remember something like 2E24 and 2E26. It's a long time ago since I mucked about with this stuff, so I might very well be wrong Nico ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 2 Jun 2003 19:59:38 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> <3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu> <77GCa.45$tZ3.3@news.get2net.dk> <3EDB6BD7.537FF82E@yahoo.com> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1054583978 9602 134.117.136.30 (2 Jun 2003 19:59:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 2003 19:59:38 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139869 "Nico de Jong" (nico@DUMPTHISfarumdata.dk) writes: >> >Cathodes can >> > warm up rapidly too, but deliberately didn't, so as to absorb the >> > 60 Hz variations from AC driven heaters. > > Wasnt there a series of tubes with direct heated cathodes ? I seem to > remember something like 2E24 and 2E26. It's a long time ago since I mucked > about with this stuff, so I might very well be wrong > > Nico > Doesn't "direcly heated cathode" mean the filament is in fact the cathode, and there is no standalone cathode? I don't think they were making them in the era of the 2E26 (which was a normal tube). But, around that time there was something that did allow for rapidly warming up the tube. I forget exactly what. It was intended for mobile operation, and it was applied to transmitter tubes since there was no sense keeping them heated if you were mostly receiving. I'm specifically thinking of a version of the 6146, but I'm not sure if that memory is correct. The 2E26 was considered a less powerful 6146, so you may be close to the button on your comment. Michael ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:39:51 +0100 Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3EDA4074.39F622A7@alum.mit.edu> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk (212.35.235.127) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1054608086 9786606 212.35.235.127 (16 [161127]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!127.235.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139934 In article <3EDA4074.39F622A7@alum.mit.edu>, "Kevin G. Rhoads" in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >>and going back to 100watts > >Now that's truly jaded, when 100W is QRP! 150 W DC input to the PA is the legal limit here, but measured under "key down" conditions". My old rig did just that, but the 811 regulator in series with the hvdc was arranged to be saturated for normal CW, and drop significant volts when the key was screwed down, as required when the GPO guy came to check compliance. :) Later, at UHF, I discovered that I could feed significantly more power through a "bad design" of a grounded grid triode than it could generate at the legal limit. Later still, I realised that QRO isn't, necessarily, the best method. Regards, David P. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3EDA4074.39F622A7@alum.mit.edu> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 03 Jun 2003 08:33:27 GMT Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust253.tnt17.lnd4.gbr.da.uu.net X-Trace: 1054629207 news.dial.pipex.com 18490 62.188.146.253 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news-FFM2.ecrc.net!newsfeed.siemens.de!dnewsifeed01.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:139979 On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:39:51 +0100, David Powell wrote: >In article <3EDA4074.39F622A7@alum.mit.edu>, > "Kevin G. Rhoads" in alt.folklore.computers >wrote: > >>>and going back to 100watts >> >>Now that's truly jaded, when 100W is QRP! > >150 W DC input to the PA is the legal limit here, but measured under >"key down" conditions". You _are_ out of date :-) It now varies according to band from 1 Watt erp on 136KHz to 400W pep output on most other frequencies. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3EDA4074.39F622A7@alum.mit.edu> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 04 Jun 2003 17:32:58 GMT Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-189-104.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1054747978 news.dial.pipex.com 10629 62.241.189.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.esat.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140071 On Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:45:13 +0100, David Wade wrote: > >"Stan Barr" wrote in message >news:slrnbdomfn.ski.stanb45@citadel.metropolis.local... >> On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:39:51 +0100, David Powell >> wrote: >> >In article <3EDA4074.39F622A7@alum.mit.edu>, >> > "Kevin G. Rhoads" in alt.folklore.computers >> >wrote: >> > >> >>>and going back to 100watts >> >> >> >>Now that's truly jaded, when 100W is QRP! >> > >> >150 W DC input to the PA is the legal limit here, but measured under >> >"key down" conditions". >> >> You _are_ out of date :-) It now varies according to band from 1 Watt >erp >> on 136KHz to 400W pep output on most other frequencies. >> > >I think on MOST bands it is actually 400W input to the antenna, so depending >on feeder loss, a higer output fromn the rig may be permissable. You are, of course, correct. See BR68 "Notes to the Schedule" (a). -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <3jqkbb.0jc.ln@acer> Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:01:23 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.111.42.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1055016004 80.111.42.204 (Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:00:04 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:00:04 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!luth.se!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1!bredband!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140685 In article , Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message >news:1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid... >> Wimps. This modern obsession with eliminating all risk (as if that >> were possible) is shutting down human initiative. Real Men built >> tube circuits with 250 volts on the plates like God intended. [snip section about immortal 15-year olds and high voltage] > There's a lot to be said when you can feel the heat of > the logic. B-) That would be violating Steve Ciarcia's Law[1] wouldn't it ? -- mrr [1] "If it is too hot to touch you are in trouble". Presented in a Byte article that really had me laughing for the entire article. I'd nominate that one for best "Circuit Cellar" ever. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 37 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:08:46 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.111.42.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1055016005 80.111.42.204 (Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:00:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:00:05 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140689 In article <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: > > >Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >Back OT, one might check one's local library. >I recall taking several books out of the >library on logic design using tubes in the early >60's. Now, of course, these may no longer >be available, but you might be surprised what >your local library (assuming its a "main library") >has stored away in the "stacks". I've found >technical manuals from the 1880's on occasion. >They might not be in "circulation condition", but >you probably can read them on site. I can vouch for that. I inherited my grandfathers's textbooks from his engineering course (he graduated from military engineering in 1909). Most of them are from Lobben publishers, publishing in a Norwegian/Danish mix in Chicago in the 1880s. It is a treasure trove of steam engineering, pulley design, physics done in arcane units and how to convert between bismerpuonds and stones; as well as some very sound math, but with a presentation angle that seems definatly weird for people used to modern math. Also, it is extremely reductionist. The works are permated with a belief that engineers can really do good things if they study, Do It Right and work hard at it. I might scan some of them an put them on the net; the copyright is corporate and should be expired a loooong time ago. -- mrr ###### From: David R Brooks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 07:23:50 +0800 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: i177-113.nv.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1055028381 1207 203.59.177.113 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140726 Morten Reistad wrote: :In article <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net>, :jchausler wrote: :> :> :>Charlie Gibbs wrote: :> : :>Back OT, one might check one's local library. ... Also one's local university library (esp. if the university has been there some time). You probably can't take them out (unless you're a student), but can study them there. ###### Message-ID: <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1055031532 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 08 Jun 2003 00:18:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 00:18:52 GMT Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 00:18:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!in.nntp.be!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.bbnplanet.com!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140702 Morten Reistad wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > I might scan some of them an put them on the net; the copyright > is corporate and should be expired a loooong time ago. > With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 09 Jun 03 12:55:07 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-981.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!elnk-pas-nf2!elnk-pas-nf1!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140928 In article <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >Morten Reistad wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> I might scan some of them an put them on the net; the copyright >> is corporate and should be expired a loooong time ago. > >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... ...held by Bill Gates. (I'm surprised you missed that one, Charles. :-) -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Message-ID: <3EE531D8.3CD6BCC2@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1055200868 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:21:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:21:08 GMT Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 23:21:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140982 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net > (Charles Richmond) writes: > > >Morten Reistad wrote: > >> > >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > >> > >> I might scan some of them an put them on the net; the copyright > >> is corporate and should be expired a loooong time ago. > > > >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments > >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... > > ...held by Bill Gates. > > (I'm surprised you missed that one, Charles. :-) > Billy Boy must have picked up those copyrights when Mi$uck bought the Bettman Archives.... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 08:28:38 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Message-ID: <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 2003 12:15:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3690.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1055247312 maya.euronet.nl 76754 212.129.226.114:2930 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:140945 On 09 Jun 03 12:55:07 -0800 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: CG> In article <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net CG> (Charles Richmond) writes: CG> CG> >Morten Reistad wrote: CG> >> CG> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] CG> >> CG> >> I might scan some of them an put them on the net; the copyright CG> >> is corporate and should be expired a loooong time ago. CG> > CG> >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments CG> >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... CG> CG> ...held by Bill Gates. Oh shit - Service Packs! -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:24:54 -0400 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid><3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net><3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net><750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.173 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1055265562 25405 208.244.111.173 (10 Jun 2003 17:19:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:19:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141035 > >CG> >> I might scan some of them an put them on the net; the copyright > >CG> >> is corporate and should be expired a loooong time ago. > >CG> > > >CG> >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments > >CG> >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... > >CG> > >CG> ...held by Bill Gates. > > > > Oh shit - Service Packs! > > As long it don't rain frogs... I'm OK with frogs, it's that "fire from the skies" stuff that's got me bugged. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:25:35 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3ee6380e.14178407@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141008 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On 09 Jun 03 12:55:07 -0800 >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: [snip] >CG> >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments >CG> >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... >CG> >CG> ...held by Bill Gates. > > Oh shit - Service Packs! The New Testament as Service Pack? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:22:57 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Message-ID: <20030611072257.529748c5.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> <3ee6380e.14178407@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2003 17:00:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p3121.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1055350813 maya.euronet.nl 76750 62.234.207.49:3043 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141180 On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:25:35 GMT genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: GW> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: GW> GW> >On 09 Jun 03 12:55:07 -0800 GW> >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: GW> GW> [snip] GW> GW> >CG> >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments GW> >CG> >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... GW> >CG> GW> >CG> ...held by Bill Gates. GW> > GW> > Oh shit - Service Packs! GW> GW> The New Testament as Service Pack? Do we get a Millenium Edition ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: snarflemike@yahoo.com (Mike Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: 11 Jun 2003 10:39:54 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <20619edc.0306110939.668679af@posting.google.com> References: <3ED665D1.ACB14922@yahoo.com> <3EDA4017.4541C1E7@alum.mit.edu> <77GCa.45$tZ3.3@news.get2net.dk> <3EDB6BD7.537FF82E@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 154.6.152.68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1055353194 28746 127.0.0.1 (11 Jun 2003 17:39:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2003 17:39:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141188 "Nico de Jong" wrote in message news:... > > >Cathodes can > > > warm up rapidly too, but deliberately didn't, so as to absorb the > > > 60 Hz variations from AC driven heaters. > > Wasnt there a series of tubes with direct heated cathodes ? I seem to > remember something like 2E24 and 2E26. It's a long time ago since I mucked > about with this stuff, so I might very well be wrong > > Nico Found this thread while looking for 2E26-related stuff. Yes, the 2E24 had a directly-heated (filamentary) cathode, otherwise very similar to the 2E26. 2E30 is another one. All designed for mobile or large portable radios, where they needed to heat up quickly when the "transmit" key was pressed. There were also smaller tubes (e.g. 2E31) with 1.25V filaments, designed for smaller portable rigs. They were probably being designed into new equipment until the mid or late '60s. Here's a nice tube data site to get nostalgic over: http://hereford.ampr.org/cgi-bin/tube Mike ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 01:41:32 +0100 Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> <3ee6380e.14178407@news.ocis.net> <20030611072257.529748c5.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 132.25.153.194.dial.uk.telenor.net (194.153.25.132) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1055378607 17133753 194.153.25.132 (16 [161127]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!132.25.153.194.dial.uk.telenor.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141330 In article <20030611072257.529748c5.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:25:35 GMT >genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >GW> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >GW> >GW> >On 09 Jun 03 12:55:07 -0800 >GW> >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >GW> >GW> [snip] >GW> >GW> >CG> >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments >GW> >CG> >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... >GW> >CG> >GW> >CG> ...held by Bill Gates. >GW> > >GW> > Oh shit - Service Packs! >GW> >GW> The New Testament as Service Pack? > > Do we get a Millenium Edition ? Not quite, the New Ten are now cast in CE ME NT, rather than hacked from stone. Regards, David P. (Licensed Recycler of Old Jokes.) ###### From: Giles Todd Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 04:33:12 +0200 Reply-To: g@prullenbak.todd.nu Message-ID: Cancel-Lock: sha1:uGXvhMTQ/aW/aCTz2Si061jVAtc= References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> <3ee6380e.14178407@news.ocis.net> <20030611072257.529748c5.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2003 04:34:06 CEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.127.198.243 X-Trace: 1055385246 news.xs4all.nl 49113 80.127.198.243:2122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.4.91.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!transit.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141316 On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:22:57 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:25:35 GMT > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > > GW> The New Testament as Service Pack? > > Do we get a Millenium Edition ? http://www.newamericancentury.org/ Giles. ###### Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:45:59 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo Message-ID: <20030612194559.5591119c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> <3ee6380e.14178407@news.ocis.net> <20030611072257.529748c5.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2003 20:16:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p2454.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1055449012 maya.euronet.nl 76756 194.134.217.159:3091 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!luth.se!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!proxad.net!proxad.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141409 On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 04:33:12 +0200 Giles Todd wrote: GT> On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:22:57 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith GT> wrote: GT> GT> > On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:25:35 GMT GT> > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: GT> > GT> > GW> The New Testament as Service Pack? GT> > GT> > Do we get a Millenium Edition ? GT> GT> http://www.newamericancentury.org/ Ugh. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: Vacuum tube logic demo References: <1269.276T1753T8695546@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3ED38662.5450B6FB@earthlink.net> <3EE29C60.B446D5A7@ev1.net> <750.290T385T7754150@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030610082838.2611c1bc.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: cshSPAM@SPAM.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:28:17 -0400 Message-ID: <1scbcb.6u1.ln@escape.shannon.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.179.105 X-Trace: corp.newsgroups.com 1055473808 209.96.179.105 (12 Jun 2003 22:10:08 -0500) Lines: 31 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 100,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!small1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!local!corp.newsgroups.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141399 In article , Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote: >> >CG> >> I might scan some of them an put them on the net; the copyright >> >CG> >> is corporate and should be expired a loooong time ago. >> >CG> > >> >CG> >With the current draconean copyright laws, the Ten Commandments >> >CG> >and the Dead Sea Scrolls are probably still under copyright... >> >CG> >> >CG> ...held by Bill Gates. >> > >> > Oh shit - Service Packs! >> >> As long it don't rain frogs... > > I'm OK with frogs, it's that "fire from the skies" stuff that's got me > bugged. I can see it now: "Don't of it as blood in the water, but iron-enhanced liquid refreshment." -- Ah... you gotta love it when your ISP switches to a SPAMMING newsfeed. Sigh... -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----