Message-ID: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1052853593 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 13 May 2003 19:19:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:19:53 GMT Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:19:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137462 I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? (For the BASIC to be "tokenized", it means that the BASIC keywords were replaced by a single byte with the high-order bit set. This meant that longer BASIC keywords like "PRINT" and "RETURN" would then each take up only *one* byte in the BASIC program that was run. Of course, when you "LIST", the BASIC interpeter has to go the other way and print the right keywords for the tokens.) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Hamblen Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> Organization: Utterly Disorganized User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 8 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 02:58:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.157.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1052881123 216.80.157.29 (Tue, 13 May 2003 19:58:43 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:58:43 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137495 In article <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" > BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color > Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* > Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? Yep. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:19:58 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137538 Charles Richmond wrote: > I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" > BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color > Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* > Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? > > (For the BASIC to be "tokenized", it means that the BASIC > keywords were replaced by a single byte with the high-order > bit set. This meant that longer BASIC keywords like "PRINT" > and "RETURN" would then each take up only *one* byte in the > BASIC program that was run. Of course, when you "LIST", the > BASIC interpeter has to go the other way and print the right > keywords for the tokens.) Yes, it was. On baby micros (and the Altair was a baby in its smallest orm!) with small program space there really wasn't much of an alternative. The bones of the tokenisation carried over into all the other MS-derived BASICs across the micro industry. Thinking of non-tokenised interpreted BASICs - I vaguely recall that the Acorn Atom didn't tokenise, but allowed and indeed encouraged use of abbreviations (P. for print, GOS. for gosub, G. for goto, F./N. for for/next....) - the more abbreviations you used the smaller and faster your program was. ;) And no, I don't think it expanded them on listing either! Actually, I think it was fairer to regard Atomic Basic as, er, a BASIC-like language - there were lots of interesting things you could do that were nothing like ordinary BASIC. Various things were generally optional and only needed to disambiguate - THEN, brackets round array references and function parameters, punctuation in PRINT statements... and so on ;) - everything to reduce size! pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 11:05:48 -0500 Organization: TychoTown Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour Message-ID: <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> Distribution: world Reply-To: blue7green@cheesenocrosswinds.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137541 Charles Richmond wrote: ] I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" ] BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color ] Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* ] Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? The Sincalir ZX-80 and 81 had tokenized BASIC as well. One or two bytes per command. JimP. -- Updated: May 14, 2003 my 1E AD&D game world. http://blue7green.crosswinds.net/crestar/index.html drive-in theatres: http://www.drivein-jim.net/ ###### Message-ID: <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> From: Lennart Benschop Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 18:49:27 +0200 References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.163.29.166 X-Trace: 1052930708 dreader5.news.xs4all.nl 132 lennartb/62.163.29.166:35081 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!transit.news.xs4all.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!xs4all!rhinewceros.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137544 D.J. wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > ] I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" > ] BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color > ] Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* > ] Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? > > The Sincalir ZX-80 and 81 had tokenized BASIC as well. One or two > bytes per command. This was true for the Sinclair Spectrum as well. But on the Sinclair machines you entered each keyword with a single key, so the interpreter didn't even have to convert the letters P-R-I-N-T to the token for PRINT, no if you typed the P in 'Keywords mode', the interpreter inserted the PRINT token into the line. The command line was context sensitive with respect to the meaning of the keys you typed. At the start of a line (and after THEN), the coummand line was in keywords mode (cursor was inverted K) and each letter key would enter a command token. After printing the command, key command line changed to Letters mode (cursor was inverted L) and each letter key entered a letter. It was even legal to have a variable named PRINT (all letters typed separately). It would show exactly like the PRINT keyword in a listing, but it would not be confused by the interpreter. BTW: many tokenizing Basic interpreters (including Sinclair's) would convert numbers to their binary equivalents as well. Some would also resolve addresses of GOTO targets (I think MSX Basic did, Sinclar did not and it was SLOW!). -- Lennart ###### From: abuse@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:54:22 +0000 (UTC) Organization: cabal.org.uk news service, Leeds, UK. Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mooli.org.uk X-Trace: mooli.org.uk 1052931262 7152 195.92.99.54 (14 May 2003 16:54:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@mooli.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:54:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: abuse@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsengine.sol.net!195.40.0.170.MISMATCH!easynet-melon!easynet.net!news-peer.gradwell.net!news.cabal.org.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137472 D.J. wrote: [...] > The Sincalir ZX-80 and 81 had tokenized BASIC as well. One or two bytes > per command. Just a single byte per character, IIRC. The ZX81 used codes 64-127 and 192-255 for BASIC tokens. This obviously implies a non-ASCII character set. The codes 0-63 consisted of (in order) ten block graphics, the digits 0-9, the upper-case letters A-Z, and then the remainder of the characters. The codes 128-191 were inverse video versions of the same characters. Having 0-9 right before A-F obviously made hexadecimal handling routines even easier. One of the more interesting tokens was one that would appear whenever you gave a number in your code. The token preceded the packed version of the number, so the interpreter didn't have to effectively do an atof() each time through the code. This sped up the code (or rather, stopped it being quite as sluggish.) The downside of this was of course that it took an extra six(?) bytes of memory whenever you used a numeric literal, which wasn't good for a machine that only had 1kB of RAM. So, people would use all sorts of hacks to make the machine calculate the number if it used fewer bytes. So the code would contain lots of stuff like EVAL "42" instead of 42 (5 bytes versus 8), or INT PI instead of 3 (2 bytes versus 7). Another interesting feature of the tokenisation is that you had to enter the tokens literally from the keyboard - so you'd press the PRINT key ("P") instead of the individual keys P R I N T. There were a number of meta keys to select an appropriate input mode to get a given character. The ZX Spectrum *might* have used multibyte tokens for some of the lesser-used commands, I can't remember for sure. It *did* use a mostly ASCII character set though. ###### From: Joachim Pense Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 21:55:29 +0200 Organization: Masters of /dev/null Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1052942037 07 22716 JlF+E4iVS5APdn 030514 19:53:57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-ID: Zd2SaeZlgevYm49e8V3PcMuKyLnqN-Hp-E7FWMk9hdpLGoIJ0vtt6D User-Agent: KNode/0.7.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137510 Lennart Benschop wrote <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl>: > This was true for the Sinclair Spectrum as well. But on the Sinclair > machines you entered each keyword with a single key, so the interpreter > didn't even have to convert the letters P-R-I-N-T to the token for PRINT, > no if you typed the P in 'Keywords mode', the interpreter inserted the > PRINT token into the line. Wasn't that the way the Commodore PET worked, too? Joachim ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 20:14:28 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137529 Joachim Pense wrote: > Lennart Benschop wrote <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl>: > >> This was true for the Sinclair Spectrum as well. But on the Sinclair >> machines you entered each keyword with a single key, so the interpreter >> didn't even have to convert the letters P-R-I-N-T to the token for PRINT, >> no if you typed the P in 'Keywords mode', the interpreter inserted the >> PRINT token into the line. > > Wasn't that the way the Commodore PET worked, too? > No. You could abbreviate most keywords by first character + shifted second character, but they were tokenised and expanded on listing as normal. (except, of course, you were generally using PETSCII so you'd get uppercase and the funny graphics unless you'd done the magic POKE to swap it round to lowercase/uppercase...) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: frustum@pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: 14 May 2003 19:22:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 25 Message-ID: <84b49ae6.0305141822.129c275c@posting.google.com> References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.125.237.190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1052965369 20990 127.0.0.1 (15 May 2003 02:22:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 May 2003 02:22:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137610 Lennart Benschop wrote in message news:<3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl>... ... > BTW: many tokenizing Basic interpreters (including Sinclair's) would convert > numbers to their binary equivalents as well. Some would also resolve > addresses of GOTO targets (I think MSX Basic did, Sinclar did not and it > was SLOW!). The HP-85 (and similar) machines went pretty far. They not only tokenized and preparsed numbers, but the internal representation was the parse tree for the line. When you did a LIST, it would traverse the tree and print the tokens. The net effect is you could type in 10 PRINT 1.00+(2*3) and then do a LIST and get 10 PRINT 1+2*3 I believe that BASIC also resolved the branch targets, and perhaps even the variable table as well. I know that the CC-40 and TI-74 handheld computers from TI maintained a "live" symbol table (not just during run time, but at all times). All characters of the variable names were significant, but references were just one or two bytes into the table. ###### From: Jim Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: 14 May 2003 22:30:12 -0500 Organization: Nunya Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!novia!newscene.com!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137604 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > Thinking of non-tokenised interpreted BASICs - I vaguely recall > that the Acorn Atom didn't tokenise, but allowed and indeed encouraged > use of abbreviations (P. for print, GOS. for gosub, G. for goto, > F./N. for for/next....) - the more abbreviations you used the smaller > and faster your program was. ;) And no, I don't think it expanded > them on listing either! The TRS-80 "Level 1" BASIC worked exactly like this also - even the same abbreviations! The Level 2 and Disk BASICs were tokenized, however, as they were standard MS BASIC. JIm ###### Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 07:40:01 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Message-ID: <20030515074001.46b6879f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> <5ea5cvsdeabp2ifhj2hejsuhapcbrle7vb@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.11 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 May 2003 17:00:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3715.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1053018015 willi.euronet.nl 45372 212.129.226.139:1374 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!transit.news.xs4all.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137597 On Wed, 14 May 2003 15:42:18 -0500 D.J. wrote: DJ> I owned a zx-81 along with the 16 kb expansion, but never bought the DJ> Spectrum. I found it interesting as a first computer. The way the expansion could wiggle and crash it you mean ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sarr@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) Lines: 16 Message-ID: <95Nwa.4051$XR3.121427@news.itd.umich.edu> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:01:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.211.2.208 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 1053007301 141.211.2.208 (Thu, 15 May 2003 10:01:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:01:41 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137598 In article <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" >BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color >Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* >Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? People associated with the Dartmouth Time Sharing System might take offense at referring to Gates and Allen BASIC as the *original* BASIC. :-) -- -------- Sarr Blumson sarr@umich.edu voice: +1 734 998 9932 home: +1 734 665 9591 JSTOR, University of Michigan http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/ ###### From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: 15 May 2003 15:16:58 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <95Nwa.4051$XR3.121427@news.itd.umich.edu> Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1053011818 3714 134.117.136.30 (15 May 2003 15:16:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 May 2003 15:16:58 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137583 Sarr J. Blumson (sarr@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu) writes: > In article <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: >>I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" >>BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color >>Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* >>Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? > > People associated with the Dartmouth Time Sharing System might take > offense at referring to Gates and Allen BASIC as the *original* > BASIC. :-) > But he said "*original* Gates and Allen BASIC" not "original BASIC". Michael ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Fri, 16 May 03 09:37:32 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <95Nwa.4051$XR3.121427@news.itd.umich.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZw3nHsLJtx9IoKst5liU7Vh/UkLa2D57Fyv+ha4nGmodMSvv4UoHHg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 May 2003 11:35:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-172 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137661 In article <95Nwa.4051$XR3.121427@news.itd.umich.edu>, sarr@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) wrote: >In article <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: >>I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" >>BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color >>Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* >>Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? > >People associated with the Dartmouth Time Sharing System might take >offense at referring to Gates and Allen BASIC as the *original* >BASIC. :-) > Especially when my first R BASIC command occurred when Billyboy was pooping in diapers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3EC478D2.6885DE4E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <95Nwa.4051$XR3.121427@news.itd.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1053056334 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 16 May 2003 03:38:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 03:38:54 GMT Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 03:38:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137738 "Sarr J. Blumson" wrote: > > In article <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >I know that BASICA and GW-BASIC for the PC were "tokenized" > >BASIC's. Even the Color BASIC for the Radio Shack Color > >Computer was a "tokentized" BASIC. So was the *original* > >Gates and Allen BASIC for the Altair a "tokenized" BASIC??? > > People associated with the Dartmouth Time Sharing System might take > offense at referring to Gates and Allen BASIC as the *original* > BASIC. :-) > No, no... when I said the "original Gates and Allen BASIC", I meant the first BASIC written by Gates and Allen. I am aware that Kemeny and Kurts' BASIC was the original BASIC. Did you know that when John Kemeny was at Princeton, he was research assistant to Albert Einstein??? -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 05:09:04 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137645 Jim wrote: >In article , > Pete Fenelon wrote: > >> Thinking of non-tokenised interpreted BASICs - I vaguely recall >> that the Acorn Atom didn't tokenise, but allowed and indeed encouraged >> use of abbreviations (P. for print, GOS. for gosub, G. for goto, >> F./N. for for/next....) - the more abbreviations you used the smaller >> and faster your program was. ;) And no, I don't think it expanded >> them on listing either! > >The TRS-80 "Level 1" BASIC worked exactly like this also - even the same >abbreviations! Yes. >The Level 2 and Disk BASICs were tokenized, however, as they were >standard MS BASIC. Yes, tokenised. No, not standard. There were a few differences (cls, print @, set, unset, and point() come to mind. There may have been others.) Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: usenet@safalra.com (Safalra) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: 16 May 2003 03:04:17 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 131.111.8.102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053079458 5635 127.0.0.1 (16 May 2003 10:04:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 May 2003 10:04:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137736 Pete Fenelon wrote in message news:... > Thinking of non-tokenised interpreted BASICs - I vaguely recall > that the Acorn Atom didn't tokenise, but allowed and indeed encouraged > use of abbreviations (P. for print, GOS. for gosub, G. for goto, > F./N. for for/next....) - the more abbreviations you used the smaller > and faster your program was. ;) And no, I don't think it expanded > them on listing either! The Vic20 also used abbreviations, except that they weren't letters, but strange symbols from around the Vic20 character set. As far as I can remember, print could be abbreviated to a question mark, and goto to a heart. Few people used the abbreviations, as they were so hard to remember. --- Stephen Morley --- http://www.safalra.com ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:26:18 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.17-20030407 ("Peephole") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.8-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137727 Safalra wrote: > > The Vic20 also used abbreviations, except that they weren't letters, > but strange symbols from around the Vic20 character set. As far as I > can remember, print could be abbreviated to a question mark, and goto > to a heart. Few people used the abbreviations, as they were so hard to > remember. > I've posted elsewhere in this thread re: Commodore abbreviations - they were usually first letter + shifted second letter of the keyword. PETSCII meant that they usually showed up as uppercase + graphic, rather than lowercase + uppercase. poke 59468,12 comes to mind as a way of making a "fat 40" toggle between UC/graphics and lc/UC. There was some weird key combination on a VIC - cbm/shift? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:12:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1053094364 41282 146.186.61.46 (16 May 2003 14:12:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:12:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137671 In article <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >Jim wrote: >>The Level 2 and Disk BASICs were tokenized, however, as they were > > Yes, tokenised. No, not standard. There were a few differences >(cls, print @, set, unset, and point() come to mind. There may have >been others.) But those weren't unique to TRS-80, either. Some variants of BASIC-80 used set/unset, others used plot, and some (e.g., Compucolor) used plot in a very weird manner . . . I think several dialects had cls, and wasn't print@ part of the set/unset graphics group? point(), though, I don't recall. Was that to querry a graphics bit? hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Russ Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Lines: 51 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:29:50 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.38.216.149 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1053106190 216.38.216.149 (Fri, 16 May 2003 12:29:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:29:50 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137707 > The Vic20 also used abbreviations, except that they weren't letters, > but strange symbols from around the Vic20 character set. As far as I > can remember, print could be abbreviated to a question mark, and goto > to a heart. Few people used the abbreviations, as they were so hard to > remember. The ? character was always an acceptable abbreviation for PRINT in MS Basics, although I don't know if it was actually the "token" used for Print. It is still accepted as a substitute for Print in Visual Basic, at least as recently as version 6.0, which is still supported. I haven't "upgraded" to the .Net version, so I don't know if it still works. It was always handy to use the ? to query variable contents in "immediate execution" mode (also supported in VB, in the "debug window"). In the regular VB code editor, "?" at the start of a statement is automatically changed into "Print". This substitution is interesting, because Print is no longer officially a "statement" in VB in most cases, but is actually a "method" supported by a number of different standard VB objects: Debug, Form, Printer, or PictureBox. Print is still supported as a non-object-related "statement" with respect to file I/O, but that's called the "Print #" statement. Actually, in a sense, though, Print is still a statement-type even as an "object method" in VB 6.0, because it still retains its own special syntax that is distinct from the syntax for function-call parameters. Other "methods" with specialized syntax include "Line", and "Circle". This special syntax finally disappears in VB.NET, which was designed by people who exhibit a bias for the "C" philosophy of having no I/O-related statements in the language -- instead reducing all I/O support to function/method calls. I have very mixed feelings about the trend toward eliminating special syntax for I/O functionality. On the one hand, such specialized statements quickly become dated, tying a language to the popular I/O paradigms of the time. Remember that Fortran includes a "Rewind" statement, or at least it did originally. (I don't know if that's survived in more recent versions of Fortran.) On the other hand, it seems to me that reducing everything to a function call, with standardized positional parameter syntax, is to snuff out the very concept of a high-level application-enabling langauge. Perhaps the hedgemony of C-like thinking has been taken too far. ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 16 May 2003 18:27:52 GMT Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-190-153.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1053109672 news.dial.pipex.com 29443 62.241.190.153:21537 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!uucp.muenster.de!195.129.110.29!dnewsfeed02.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed01.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137662 On Fri, 16 May 2003 11:29:50 -0600, Russ Holsclaw wrote: > >The ? character was always an acceptable abbreviation for PRINT >in MS Basics, although I don't know if it was actually the >"token" used for Print. ISTR that ? was an abbreviation for use in program input, if you listed a saved program it appeared as "PRINT". I think the token in TRS-80 Basic was B4....I used to know most of the tokens back in the days I was writing a Basic program that wrote Basic database programs :-) >It was always handy to use the ? to query variable >contents in "immediate execution" mode (also supported in VB, in >the "debug window"). ? is a common Forth word to display the contents of a variable, it dates back to the '70s - I wonder if VB adopted it from there, or is it just an obvious choice of symbol? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com (Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.) The future was never like this! ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 14:57:18 -0500 Organization: TychoTown Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour Message-ID: <5jgacvom7gkpl193bg4ifjahvl779f6p55@4ax.com> Distribution: world Reply-To: blue7green@cheesenocrosswinds.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> <5ea5cvsdeabp2ifhj2hejsuhapcbrle7vb@4ax.com> <20030515074001.46b6879f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137838 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: ] On Wed, 14 May 2003 15:42:18 -0500 ] D.J. wrote: ] DJ> I owned a zx-81 along with the 16 kb expansion, but never bought the ] DJ> Spectrum. I found it interesting as a first computer. ] ] The way the expansion could wiggle and crash it you mean ? I used a giant elastic band. The ram pak stayed put. JimP. -- Updated: May 14, 2003 my 1E AD&D game world. http://blue7green.crosswinds.net/crestar/index.html drive-in theatres: http://www.drivein-jim.net/ ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:18:28 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3ec543ac.15977483@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137752 hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net>, >Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>Jim wrote: > > >>>The Level 2 and Disk BASICs were tokenized, however, as they were > >> >> Yes, tokenised. No, not standard. There were a few differences >>(cls, print @, set, unset, and point() come to mind. There may have >>been others.) > >But those weren't unique to TRS-80, either. Some variants of BASIC-80 No, not unique, but not in every. >used set/unset, others used plot, and some (e.g., Compucolor) used plot >in a very weird manner . . . I think several dialects had cls, and >wasn't print@ part of the set/unset graphics group? No, it was to print at a specific location on the screen. >point(), though, I don't recall. Was that to querry a graphics bit? Yes, returned true if set and false if not (-1 and 0 that is). Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:18:30 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3ec54425.16098643@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137748 Pete Fenelon wrote: [snip] >I've posted elsewhere in this thread re: Commodore abbreviations - they >were usually first letter + shifted second letter of the keyword. >PETSCII meant that they usually showed up as uppercase + graphic, rather >than lowercase + uppercase. > >poke 59468,12 comes to mind as a way of making a "fat 40" toggle between >UC/graphics and lc/UC. There was some weird key combination on a VIC - >cbm/shift? AFAIR, yes, that was the combo. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: Rich Alderson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: 16 May 2003 20:03:43 -0400 Organization: Systems Administration, XKL LLC, Redmond WA 98052 Lines: 18 Sender: alderson+news@panix5.panix.com Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix5.panix.com X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1053129823 404 166.84.1.5 (17 May 2003 00:03:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:03:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137795 "Russ Holsclaw" writes: > On the one hand, such specialized statements quickly become dated, > tying a language to the popular I/O paradigms of the time. Remember > that Fortran includes a "Rewind" statement, or at least it did > originally. (I don't know if that's survived in more recent versions > of Fortran.) Checking my copy of _Fortran 90 Programming_ (Ellis, Philips[1], Lahey; Addison-Wesley 1994) shows that the REWIND statement is still the way to move the file pointer back to the beginning of the file. See section 9.4, pg. 292. [1] Ivor Philips is the husband of a former cow orker, and a very nice person. Shame to get his name mixed in with this topic. -- Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless ###### Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 09:20:08 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Message-ID: <20030517092008.512a507c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> <5ea5cvsdeabp2ifhj2hejsuhapcbrle7vb@4ax.com> <20030515074001.46b6879f.steveo@eircom.net> <5jgacvom7gkpl193bg4ifjahvl779f6p55@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.0pre1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2003 07:57:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3564.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1053158256 maya.euronet.nl 76761 212.129.225.244:1026 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!newsfeed.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137794 On Fri, 16 May 2003 14:57:18 -0500 D.J. wrote: DJ> DJ> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: DJ> ] On Wed, 14 May 2003 15:42:18 -0500 DJ> ] D.J. wrote: DJ> ] DJ> I owned a zx-81 along with the 16 kb expansion, but never bought DJ> the] DJ> Spectrum. I found it interesting as a first computer. DJ> ] DJ> ] The way the expansion could wiggle and crash it you mean ? DJ> DJ> I used a giant elastic band. The ram pak stayed put. Damn Clive actually missed an add on sale opportunity :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 04:22:04 -0500 Organization: TychoTown Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour Message-ID: Distribution: world Reply-To: blue7green@cheesenocrosswinds.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <49q4cvchop14mrhm3mc2rve2i681nf7b5r@4ax.com> <3ec27293$0$132$e4fe514c@dreader5.news.xs4all.nl> <5ea5cvsdeabp2ifhj2hejsuhapcbrle7vb@4ax.com> <20030515074001.46b6879f.steveo@eircom.net> <5jgacvom7gkpl193bg4ifjahvl779f6p55@4ax.com> <20030517092008.512a507c.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137853 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: ] DJ> I used a giant elastic band. The ram pak stayed put. ] ] Damn Clive actually missed an add on sale opportunity :) Well, he could have used a rubber eraser... :-) [ Yes, I know a pencil eraser is also called a rubber.] I was surprised the ram pak used a connector, and the zx-81 didn't. JimP. -- Updated: May 14, 2003 my 1E AD&D game world. http://blue7green.crosswinds.net/crestar/index.html drive-in theatres: http://www.drivein-jim.net/ ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: 17 May 2003 04:40:04 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1053171605 9578 127.0.0.1 (17 May 2003 11:40:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2003 11:40:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!itgate.net!news-out.tin.it!news-in.tin.it!nntp.infostrada.it!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137854 "Russ Holsclaw" wrote in message news:... > I have very mixed feelings about the trend toward eliminating > special syntax for I/O functionality. On the one hand, such > specialized statements quickly become dated, tying a language to > the popular I/O paradigms of the time. Remember that Fortran > includes a "Rewind" statement, or at least it did originally. Rewind is a pretty universal concept. Compare it with other ways to do similar things (e.g. fseek) which are hopelessly tied to the concept that all files are streams of characters ... er bytes ... er octets :-). How do you back up in that file by 7 Unicode characters? I realize you were comparing "Rewind" (the command) with "Rewind" (the function call), but I had to get my diatribe in nonetheless :-) > (I don't know if that's survived in more recent versions of > Fortran.) On the other hand, it seems to me that reducing > everything to a function call, with standardized positional > parameter syntax, is to snuff out the very concept of a > high-level application-enabling langauge. Perhaps the hedgemony > of C-like thinking has been taken too far. I think the swing to file (and network and serial port and interprocess communication... ) objects and "methods" that work on is a wonderful correction in attitude. Finally we're coming back to the concept of "the network is like a file system", something that BSD-style socket interfaces wrecked horribly. Tim. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:31:34 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net> <3ec543ac.15977483@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Trace: f04n12.cac.psu.edu 1053181894 19726 146.186.61.46 (17 May 2003 14:31:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@f04n12.cac.psu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:31:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.aset.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137751 In article <3ec543ac.15977483@news.ocis.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>used set/unset, others used plot, and some (e.g., Compucolor) used plot >>in a very weird manner . . . I think several dialects had cls, and >>wasn't print@ part of the set/unset graphics group? > No, it was to print at a specific location on the screen. Yes, but didn't all the mbasics that used pset/set have the print@ statement? both required a specific screen geometry, and set/pset often did this (as in the trash 80) with the bits of the character at that location. (But the 102, and I presume the 100, had a separate bit memory for this). hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 18:30:15 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Message-ID: <20030517183015.33abe727.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.0pre1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2003 18:08:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.234.210.241 X-Trace: 1053194902 maya.euronet.nl 76766 62.234.210.241:1050 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!beastiality.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137798 On 17 May 2003 04:40:04 -0700 shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: TS> Rewind is a pretty universal concept. Compare it with other TS> ways to do similar things (e.g. fseek) which are hopelessly tied TS> to the concept that all files are streams of characters ... er bytes TS> ... er octets :-). How do you back up in that file by 7 Unicode TS> characters? Predictable results only possible when fseeking to the result of an ftell ? ISTR seeing that in some places already (I'm trying hard not to think about those places OK). -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 00:26:19 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3ec68df7.3542895@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net> <3ec543ac.15977483@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!newsfeed.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137870 hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article <3ec543ac.15977483@news.ocis.net>, >Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > >>>used set/unset, others used plot, and some (e.g., Compucolor) used plot >>>in a very weird manner . . . I think several dialects had cls, and >>>wasn't print@ part of the set/unset graphics group? >> No, it was to print at a specific location on the screen. > > >Yes, but didn't all the mbasics that used pset/set have the print@ >statement? both required a specific screen geometry, and set/pset often >did this (as in the trash 80) with the bits of the character at that >location. (But the 102, and I presume the 100, had a separate bit memory >for this). I can not answer for all MBASICs. I used TRS-80, CP/M (version 4 and 5), and PET MBASICs. The three types differed in how graphics were handled. TRS-80 had set/unset, CP/M had nothing, and PET had graphic characters. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:36:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1053254205 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 18 May 2003 04:36:45 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 04:36:45 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!east.cox.net!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137929 On Fri, 16 May 2003 11:29:50 -0600 in alt.folklore.computers, "Russ Holsclaw" wrote: >I have very mixed feelings about the trend toward eliminating >special syntax for I/O functionality. On the one hand, such >specialized statements quickly become dated, tying a language to >the popular I/O paradigms of the time. Remember that Fortran >includes a "Rewind" statement, or at least it did originally. (I >don't know if that's survived in more recent versions of >Fortran.) It has survived in C99 too! >On the other hand, it seems to me that reducing >everything to a function call, with standardized positional >parameter syntax, is to snuff out the very concept of a >high-level application-enabling langauge. Perhaps the hedgemony >of C-like thinking has been taken too far. It's free to all if the language is self-hosted and uses varargs or is built in C. Doesn't VB support a ParamArray Variant type? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <0joecv4uit5p7kig9hnujepah2b3fk4fau@4ax.com> References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <20030517183015.33abe727.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 10:40:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1053254452 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 18 May 2003 04:40:52 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 04:40:52 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137938 On Sat, 17 May 2003 18:30:15 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On 17 May 2003 04:40:04 -0700 >shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > >TS> Rewind is a pretty universal concept. Compare it with other >TS> ways to do similar things (e.g. fseek) which are hopelessly tied >TS> to the concept that all files are streams of characters ... er bytes >TS> ... er octets :-). How do you back up in that file by 7 Unicode >TS> characters? Use wchar strings and subtract 7? > Predictable results only possible when fseeking to the result >of an ftell ? ISTR seeing that in some places already (I'm trying hard >not to think about those places OK). Oe beginning or end of file. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply ###### From: Jim Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: 18 May 2003 20:35:11 -0500 Organization: Nunya Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net> <3ec543ac.15977483@news.ocis.net> <3ec68df7.3542895@news.ocis.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!novia!newscene.com!newscene.com!newscene!novia!novia!sequencer.newscene.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138019 In article <3ec68df7.3542895@news.ocis.net>, genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > I can not answer for all MBASICs. I used TRS-80, CP/M (version 4 > and 5), and PET MBASICs. The three types differed in how graphics > were handled. TRS-80 had set/unset, CP/M had nothing, and PET had > graphic characters. Minor correction - the TRS-80 was Set/Reset, not unset. Jim ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 17:47:44 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3ec84f58.23889255@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <3ec3c188.2700366@news.ocis.net> <3ec543ac.15977483@news.ocis.net> <3ec68df7.3542895@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.4.91.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:137948 Jim wrote: >In article <3ec68df7.3542895@news.ocis.net>, > genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote: > >> I can not answer for all MBASICs. I used TRS-80, CP/M (version 4 >> and 5), and PET MBASICs. The three types differed in how graphics >> were handled. TRS-80 had set/unset, CP/M had nothing, and PET had >> graphic characters. > >Minor correction - the TRS-80 was Set/Reset, not unset. Right. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:41:31 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Altair BASIC by Gates and Allen Message-ID: <20030520224131.15ef262c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3EC160DF.6C8D5E24@ev1.net> <20030517183015.33abe727.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.9.0pre1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 May 2003 01:01:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0979.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1053478868 willi.euronet.nl 45382 194.134.211.215:1315 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.4.91.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:138209 On Sat, 17 May 2003 19:37:59 -0400 mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) wrote: MW> In article <20030517183015.33abe727.steveo@eircom.net>, MW> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: MW> >of an ftell ? ISTR seeing that in some places already (I'm trying MW> >hard not to think about those places OK). MW> MW> Files opened in text mode? Mornington Crescent - I lose. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/