From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: VT-100 semantics Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.118.121.151 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1047915402 24.118.121.151 (Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132313 A few years back we had the mild joy of writing a PC Telnet client. First there were the mind-numbing infelicities of the Telnet protocol, plus the many floow-up RFC's that obliquely addressed the bigger traps. But that only tooka few weeks to decode. The bigger bottomless-pit was trying to emulate a VT-100 terminal. Childishly, I thought the little DEC VT-100 spec folder would reveal all. True, it did list a passel of control codes, and usually several syllables describing the carnival on the screen that was supposed to result. But IIRC, this was no way to get "vi" displaying properly. Mostly it was a case of extreme brevity-- the spec mentioned what happens when the codes come in with reasonable values. But if the codes specified more than 25 lines, or position cursor up beyond top of screen, the documentation was mum. To make things worse, we'd tossed out the last VT-10 about 5 yrs before, so we didnt even have any true-blue representative hardware to test against. In a few cases one could tell from the termcap entry that someone found that a certain sequence did something useful on a true VT-100, so it became part of tercap lore, and therefore all terminal emulators had to reproduce this particular "feature". After many headaches, like getting e-mails that said "vi goofs up with your client, but only thru a rlogin to the library 3270-to-TCP gateway thru the old VAX.", we got the emulator emulating what termcap considered was a canonical VT-100. Which brings up many questions: Was there any document from DEC that truly specified what a VT-100 did, including boundary conditions and out-of-range values? If not, how did they design the next series of terminals to be "VT-100 compatible"? Extra credit: name at least three modern computer standards that are at best no better than the VT-100 situation. Regards, George ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics References: Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:44:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1047915886 206.146.76.206 (Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:44:46 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 09:44:46 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132316 On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT, George R. Gonzalez wrote: >Was there any document from DEC that truly specified what a VT-100 did, >including >boundary conditions and out-of-range values? > >If not, how did they design the next series of terminals to be "VT-100 >compatible"? Good questions. IIRC, there's a program out there that exercised a VT-100 (or possibly VT-220) emulation thoroughly, and would reveal just about any incompatibility. I wish I could remmeber the name of the program, or where it could be found, as I've got a need for it now... >Extra credit: name at least three modern computer standards that are at >best no better >than the VT-100 situation. Pick any 3 M$ API documents. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics References: From: Arthur Chance <{spamtrap}@qeng-ho.org> Organization: Rare Reply-To: Arthur Chance Date: 17 Mar 2003 16:33:14 +0000 Message-ID: <877kayt0l1.fsf@pooh.wired.qeng-ho.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2003 17:04:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.128.242 X-Trace: 1047920641 news.gradwell.net 66680 qeng-ho/217.155.128.242 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!uio.no!feed.news.nacamar.de!easynet-quince!easynet.net!news-peer.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132358 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT, George R. Gonzalez wrote: > >Was there any document from DEC that truly specified what a VT-100 did, > >including > >boundary conditions and out-of-range values? The OP may find http://vt100.net/ useful. > Good questions. IIRC, there's a program out there that exercised a VT-100 > (or possibly VT-220) emulation thoroughly, and would reveal just about any > incompatibility. I wish I could remmeber the name of the program, or where > it could be found, as I've got a need for it now... vttest. You'll find a link to it at the above URL or go directly to http://dickey.his.com/vttest/vttest.html -- 2, 3, 3 & 37: the Prime Factors of the Beast. ###### From: steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics Date: 17 Mar 2003 13:54:15 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9307085f.0303171354.25f67ee2@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.168.131.19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1047938056 21451 127.0.0.1 (17 Mar 2003 21:54:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2003 21:54:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132382 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote in message news:... > On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT, George R. Gonzalez wrote: > >Was there any document from DEC that truly specified what a VT-100 did, > >including > >boundary conditions and out-of-range values? > > > >If not, how did they design the next series of terminals to be "VT-100 > >compatible"? > > Good questions. IIRC, there's a program out there that exercised a VT-100 > (or possibly VT-220) emulation thoroughly, and would reveal just about any > incompatibility. I wish I could remmeber the name of the program, or where > it could be found, as I've got a need for it now... I can't find it either (I had a copy!). Here's something you can look at though. http://artscene.textfiles.com/vt100/torturet.vt "cat" it to your terminal. > > >Extra credit: name at least three modern computer standards that are at > >best no better > >than the VT-100 situation. > > Pick any 3 M$ API documents. ROTFLMAO -uso. ###### From: steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics Date: 17 Mar 2003 13:54:15 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9307085f.0303171354.25f67ee2@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.168.131.19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1047938056 21451 127.0.0.1 (17 Mar 2003 21:54:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2003 21:54:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132397 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote in message news:... > On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT, George R. Gonzalez wrote: > >Was there any document from DEC that truly specified what a VT-100 did, > >including > >boundary conditions and out-of-range values? > > > >If not, how did they design the next series of terminals to be "VT-100 > >compatible"? > > Good questions. IIRC, there's a program out there that exercised a VT-100 > (or possibly VT-220) emulation thoroughly, and would reveal just about any > incompatibility. I wish I could remmeber the name of the program, or where > it could be found, as I've got a need for it now... I can't find it either (I had a copy!). Here's something you can look at though. http://artscene.textfiles.com/vt100/torturet.vt "cat" it to your terminal. > > >Extra credit: name at least three modern computer standards that are at > >best no better > >than the VT-100 situation. > > Pick any 3 M$ API documents. ROTFLMAO -uso. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 01:33:06 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 27 Message-ID: <1047944366snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1047951186 7274 10.0.0.1 (18 Mar 2003 01:33:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 01:33:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 18v5yT-0001tB-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Tue, 18 Mar 2003 01:33:05 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132606 In article news@celigne.co.uk "Paul Williams" writes: > As far as subsequent DEC terminals go, "VT100 compatible" actually means > VT100 plus the Level 1 Editing Extension that was part of the VT102. > > Although this means that the VT102 User Guide is probably the best source > of information for VT100 emulators (along with a real VT102 and vttest), I > think that that manual has some mistakes. DEC's later terminals certainly > don't follow the VT102 User Guide's description of the behaviour of Delete > Character (DCH). I remember being less than impressed, ca.1985ish, to find that none of the so-called VT100-emulating terminals that I tested were capable of performing auto-wrap in the same manner as a genuine VT100. (The "problem" is that a VT100 performs the auto-wrap, effectively inserting a CR-LF, when it receives the 81st [or 133rd] printing character on a line; most manufacturer's "emulations" would perform the auto-wrap after receiving the 80th/132nd character. Utter havoc if the 81st/133rd character is then a genuine CR, followed by a LF.) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### From: Yeechang Lee Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics Date: 18 Mar 2003 01:42:31 GMT Organization: Stanford 2nd Ward, Menlo Park California Stake Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <1047944366snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12-210-238-226.client.attbi.com (12.210.238.226) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1047951751 70918875 12.210.238.226 (16 [91648]) X-Disclaimer: No job, no disclaimer. X-Face: %^ToN=d7q{|gq79RFo$EU&4s!t3&qJH&JMvZ}HW:]|:izyAXGULq'amJchE3=H;~bLWLO0VM}0ei{:J;#j%o!Hv\Mh*r_.r^7cO-Sp(a@eFu`a!Wpw*,P~lUINX`!7T=*&$/&z>:q=FGhL)~("K6,IY[fa*Z wrote: > I remember being less than impressed, ca.1985ish, to find that none of > the so-called VT100-emulating terminals that I tested were capable of > performing auto-wrap in the same manner as a genuine VT100. How do today's Xterm variants (rxvt, konsole, gnome-terminal, eterm, etc.) stack up? Or PuTTY for Windows? Yeechang, curious -- Read my Deep Thoughts @ PERTH ----> * 5:41pm up 12 min, 13 users, load average: 3.36, 3.25, 1.96 143 processes: 137 sleeping, 5 running, 1 zombie, 0 stopped CPU states: 12.5% user, 5.8% system, 71.7% nice, 9.8% idle ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 02:42:14 +0000 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4q1d7vsgpjd41dnhfka9889na2dlukophe@4ax.com> References: Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 86.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk (212.35.234.86) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1047955532 71022847 212.35.234.86 (16 [161127]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!86.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132603 In article , "George R. Gonzalez" in alt.folklore.computers wrote: > >Was there any document from DEC that truly specified what a VT-100 did, >including >boundary conditions and out-of-range values? > You need two docs, the print set and the 8080 listing. I once had both. IIRC about 4 * 2716 EPROM'S worth of code. Regards, David P. ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 21:57:16 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-943.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132590 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: > Good questions. IIRC, there's a program out there that exercised a VT-100 > (or possibly VT-220) emulation thoroughly, and would reveal just about any > incompatibility. I wish I could remmeber the name of the program, or where > it could be found, as I've got a need for it now... VTTEST.EXE IIRC. -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### Message-ID: <3E769A35.63192954@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics References: <1047944366snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:10:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1047960645 12.90.169.116 (Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:10:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:10:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132618 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > ... snip ... > > I remember being less than impressed, ca.1985ish, to find that none of > the so-called VT100-emulating terminals that I tested were capable of > performing auto-wrap in the same manner as a genuine VT100. (The > "problem" is that a VT100 performs the auto-wrap, effectively inserting a > CR-LF, when it receives the 81st [or 133rd] printing character on a line; > most manufacturer's "emulations" would perform the auto-wrap after > receiving the 80th/132nd character. Utter havoc if the 81st/133rd > character is then a genuine CR, followed by a LF.) I rebuilt my Kaypro 83 rom bios to do exactly that - the remaining problem was where to put the cursor after the 80th char. I chose to let it remain on col. 80. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <3E76BA5D.90405455@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics References: <877kayt0l1.fsf@pooh.wired.qeng-ho.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1047961262 12.241.15.59 (Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:21:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:21:02 GMT Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 04:21:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132596 Arthur Chance wrote: > > jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > > > On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:36:42 GMT, George R. Gonzalez wrote: > > >Was there any document from DEC that truly specified what a VT-100 did, > > >including > > >boundary conditions and out-of-range values? > > The OP may find http://vt100.net/ useful. > There is a VT-103 manual available at: Warning: it is upwards of 5 meg... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Dave Horsfall Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT-100 semantics Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:59:20 +1100 Organization: client of Corinthian Internet Services Lines: 9 Message-ID: <20030318165806.S29420@mippet.ci.com.au> References: <1047944366snz@dsl.co.uk> <3E769A35.63192954@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mippet.ci.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1047967162 4916 192.65.182.30 (18 Mar 2003 05:59:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2003 05:59:22 GMT In-Reply-To: <3E769A35.63192954@yahoo.com> Archive: No X-No-Archive: Yes X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" X-Witty-Saying: "Mobius Strip - See other side for instructions" Cache-Post-Path: mippet.ci.com.au!unknown@mippet.ci.com.au X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!mippet.ci.com.au!daveh Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132495 On Tue, 18 Mar 2003, CBFalconer wrote: > I rebuilt my Kaypro 83 rom bios to do exactly that - the remaining > problem was where to put the cursor after the 80th char. I chose > to let it remain on col. 80. That's what the VT-100 and true clones did. -- Dave