Message-ID: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> From: Biggles Subject: Keeping old hardware alive? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Organization: Biggles Ltd Summary: X-Newsreader: Agent for the ZX81 Reply-To: nospam@not.possible.com X-No-Archive: yes Date: 07 Mar 2003 18:27:13 GMT Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.1.43 X-Trace: 1047061633 12819 198.142.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131423 I'm not sure if my old Apple II+ is old enough to be relevant to this group? :) Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had tips on keeping old hardware alive. My Apple still fires up as if it was new, but I only pull it out once a year or so. I've heard that keeping old electronic devices in good condition requires powering them up every now and then? My question is, how often should I turn this old beast on? Any tips on keeping it alive over the next 10 or 20 years would be appreciated... ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:01:53 -0000 Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1047063715 14738 62.49.243.90 (7 Mar 2003 19:01:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:01:55 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!easynet-quince!easynet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131389 "Biggles" wrote in message news:3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > I'm not sure if my old Apple II+ is old enough to be relevant to this > group? :) Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had tips on keeping > old hardware alive. My Apple still fires up as if it was new, but I > only pull it out once a year or so. I've heard that keeping old > electronic devices in good condition requires powering them up every > now and then? My question is, how often should I turn this old beast > on? Any tips on keeping it alive over the next 10 or 20 years would be > appreciated... > Old enough, but not really the right group try comp.sys.apple2 instead. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:59:12 -0000 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1047067153 24994 80.177.7.220 (7 Mar 2003 19:59:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:59:13 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131359 "Biggles" wrote in message news:3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > I'm not sure if my old Apple II+ is old enough to be relevant to this > group? :) Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had tips on keeping > old hardware alive. My Apple still fires up as if it was new, but I > only pull it out once a year or so. I've heard that keeping old > electronic devices in good condition requires powering them up every > now and then? My question is, how often should I turn this old beast > on? Any tips on keeping it alive over the next 10 or 20 years would be > appreciated... In general I've found stuff like power supplies and capacitors are the biggest risks. Oh yeah, and EPROM/EEPROM fade too..... Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> From: Biggles Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> Organization: Biggles Ltd X-Newsreader: Agent for the ZX81 Reply-To: nospam@not.possible.com X-No-Archive: yes Date: 07 Mar 2003 20:07:24 GMT Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.1.43 X-Trace: 1047067644 12819 198.142.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!beamish.news.atl.earthlink.net!guinness.news.atl.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-sanjose!news-in-sanjose!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131452 Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Biggles" wrote in message > news:3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... >> I'm not sure if my old Apple II+ is old enough to be relevant to this >> group? :) Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had tips on keeping >> old hardware alive. My Apple still fires up as if it was new, but I >> only pull it out once a year or so. I've heard that keeping old >> electronic devices in good condition requires powering them up every >> now and then? My question is, how often should I turn this old beast >> on? Any tips on keeping it alive over the next 10 or 20 years would be >> appreciated... > In general I've found stuff like power supplies and capacitors > are the biggest risks. Oh yeah, and EPROM/EEPROM fade too..... EPROM/EEPROM fade? Ouch. I've heard that caps are likely to dry up over time. Haven't heard of EPROM/EEPROM fade before. I don't think (but could be very wrong) that the Apple used eproms. Hmm.. just popped the lid, I can see some of the ROM's have labels that could be covering an erase window... ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:27:44 -0000 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 43 Message-ID: <1047068864.955649@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1047068865 16045 80.177.7.220 (7 Mar 2003 20:27:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 20:27:45 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!195.40.4.120.MISMATCH!easynet-quince!easynet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131376 "Biggles" wrote in message news:3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Biggles" wrote in message > > news:3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > >> I'm not sure if my old Apple II+ is old enough to be relevant to this > >> group? :) Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had tips on keeping > >> old hardware alive. My Apple still fires up as if it was new, but I > >> only pull it out once a year or so. I've heard that keeping old > >> electronic devices in good condition requires powering them up every > >> now and then? My question is, how often should I turn this old beast > >> on? Any tips on keeping it alive over the next 10 or 20 years would be > >> appreciated... > > > In general I've found stuff like power supplies and capacitors > > are the biggest risks. Oh yeah, and EPROM/EEPROM fade too..... > > EPROM/EEPROM fade? Ouch. I've heard that caps are likely to dry > up over time. Haven't heard of EPROM/EEPROM fade before. I don't I've heard that electrolytics can go closed-circuit with lack of use and need "reforming" (basically trickling charge into them). Can't say I've actually seen that first hand though. Other types of caps die with time too, although I can't for the life of me remember the timescales etc. It's been a very long time since I cared... Telecomms kit often has components guaranteed for 15 years minimum - that puts a fairly hefty premium on the prices. > think (but could be very wrong) that the Apple used eproms. Hmm.. > just popped the lid, I can see some of the ROM's have labels that > could be covering an erase window... Most of the early "Home computer" type micros I've come across use PROMs for the vendor supplied important stuff (like basic interpreters, sub-routines etc) - which are great because they don't fade. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3E6954F2.82512507@gazonk.del> From: "Foobar T. Clown" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:27:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.151.166.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny03.gnilink.net 1047090446 141.151.166.186 (Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:27:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 21:27:26 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny03.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131263 Biggles wrote: > > EPROM/EEPROM fade? Ouch. I've heard that caps are likely to dry > up over time. Haven't heard of EPROM/EEPROM fade before. I don't > think (but could be very wrong) that the Apple used eproms. Hmm.. > just popped the lid, I can see some of the ROM's have labels that > could be covering an erase window... I don't remember what's under the hood of an Apple ][, but werent the classic 27XX E-PROMS just common as dirt in those days? Anyway, just because you don't see a window doesn't mean it's not an E-PROM. A chip in a windowed, ceramic package might have cost fifteen dollars each whereas the same chip in a windowless, plastic package would have sold for two or three dollars in quantity. They were called OTP (one time programmable) parts. (I guess it would've been too weird to call them Non-Eraseable EPROMS.) -- Foo! ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 19:37:54 -0700 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.com (198.31.26.33) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1047091075 65405462 198.31.26.33 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131424 Biggles wrote: > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Biggles" wrote in message > > news:3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > >> I'm not sure if my old Apple II+ is old enough to be relevant to this > >> group? :) Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had tips on keeping > >> old hardware alive. My Apple still fires up as if it was new, but I > >> only pull it out once a year or so. I've heard that keeping old > >> electronic devices in good condition requires powering them up every > >> now and then? My question is, how often should I turn this old beast > >> on? Any tips on keeping it alive over the next 10 or 20 years would be > >> appreciated... > > > In general I've found stuff like power supplies and capacitors > > are the biggest risks. Oh yeah, and EPROM/EEPROM fade too..... > > EPROM/EEPROM fade? Yep. E(E)PROM work by keeping a charge on an isolated gate (a capacitor in effect), but the isolation can't be perfect, otherwise it would not be possible to program the chip in the first place. So over time the stored charge trickles off the gate (insert appropriate quantum semiconductor mechanical terms here). ###### Message-ID: <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> From: Biggles Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> Organization: Biggles Ltd X-Newsreader: Agent for the ZX81 Reply-To: nospam@not.possible.com X-No-Archive: yes Date: 08 Mar 2003 03:31:20 GMT Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.1.43 X-Trace: 1047094280 12817 198.142.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131419 Lars Duening wrote: >> EPROM/EEPROM fade? > Yep. E(E)PROM work by keeping a charge on an isolated gate (a capacitor > in effect), but the isolation can't be perfect, otherwise it would not > be possible to program the chip in the first place. So over time the > stored charge trickles off the gate (insert appropriate quantum > semiconductor mechanical terms here). Great. I guess my grandchildren may not see what computing was for the average person in the 70's/80's. I suppose emulators will have to do, although it's really not the same. I'm off to play Wavy Navy before the PROM's expire.... ###### From: dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: 8 Mar 2003 05:45:07 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!24.215.0.32.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!usc.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131291 Biggles wrote: > Lars Duening wrote: >>> EPROM/EEPROM fade? >> Yep. E(E)PROM work by keeping a charge on an isolated gate (a capacitor >> in effect), but the isolation can't be perfect, otherwise it would not >> be possible to program the chip in the first place. So over time the >> stored charge trickles off the gate (insert appropriate quantum >> semiconductor mechanical terms here). > Great. I guess my grandchildren may not see what computing was for the > average person in the 70's/80's. I suppose emulators will have to do, > although it's really not the same. I'm off to play Wavy Navy before the > PROM's expire.... Well, as long as you keep the ROM images around and keep copying them onto newer media, you should be able to show your grandkids the old hardware. Of course, some other rebuilding may be needed (caps, new [E|EE]PROMS, etc). Another thing you might want to explore is reimplementing old hardware on FPGA. Examples: http://c64upgra.de/c-one/ (C64) and http://www.mindspring.com/~2600onachip/ (Atari 2600). -- David Griffith ###### Message-ID: <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1047111067 12.241.15.59 (Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:11:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:11:07 GMT Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:11:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed3.newsreader.com!newsreader.com!news-xfer.cox.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131447 Biggles wrote: > > Lars Duening wrote: > >> EPROM/EEPROM fade? > > > Yep. E(E)PROM work by keeping a charge on an isolated gate (a capacitor > > in effect), but the isolation can't be perfect, otherwise it would not > > be possible to program the chip in the first place. So over time the > > stored charge trickles off the gate (insert appropriate quantum > > semiconductor mechanical terms here). > > Great. I guess my grandchildren may not see what computing was for the > average person in the 70's/80's. I suppose emulators will have to do, > although it's really not the same. I'm off to play Wavy Navy before the > PROM's expire.... > Computing for the average person in the 1970's was their phone or electric bill...or maybe the department store bill. Most people in the 1970's had *no* computers...and many had *no* hand-held calculators. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> From: Biggles Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> Organization: Biggles Ltd X-Newsreader: Agent for the ZX81 Reply-To: nospam@not.possible.com X-No-Archive: yes Date: 08 Mar 2003 10:59:21 GMT Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.1.43 X-Trace: 1047121161 12817 198.142.1.43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131428 Charles Richmond wrote: >> > Computing for the average person in the 1970's was their phone > or electric bill...or maybe the department store bill. Most > people in the 1970's had *no* computers...and many had *no* > hand-held calculators. Yes. The above applies for the third world, now.... ###### Message-ID: <3E69DD0B.F5473F3A@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6954F2.82512507@gazonk.del> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:31:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.171.23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1047126706 12.90.171.23 (Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:31:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 12:31:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131258 "Foobar T. Clown" wrote: > Biggles wrote: > > > > EPROM/EEPROM fade? Ouch. I've heard that caps are likely to dry > > up over time. Haven't heard of EPROM/EEPROM fade before. I don't > > think (but could be very wrong) that the Apple used eproms. Hmm.. > > just popped the lid, I can see some of the ROM's have labels that > > could be covering an erase window... > > I don't remember what's under the hood of an Apple ][, but werent > the classic 27XX E-PROMS just common as dirt in those days? > > Anyway, just because you don't see a window doesn't mean it's not > an E-PROM. A chip in a windowed, ceramic package might have cost > fifteen dollars each whereas the same chip in a windowless, plastic > package would have sold for two or three dollars in quantity. They > were called OTP (one time programmable) parts. (I guess it would've > been too weird to call them Non-Eraseable EPROMS.) Of course you can take those 'faded' eproms, windowless or not, and reprogram them at any time without erasure. Just make sure you are refreshing with the identical code. If they are 2708s you may have trouble finding a programmer. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.207.204.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1047154467 12.207.204.17 (Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:14:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:14:27 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 20:14:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!195.40.4.120.MISMATCH!easynet-quince!easynet.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131515 "Lars Duening" wrote in message news:1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com... > Biggles wrote: (snip) > > > In general I've found stuff like power supplies and capacitors > > > are the biggest risks. Oh yeah, and EPROM/EEPROM fade too..... > > > > EPROM/EEPROM fade? > > Yep. E(E)PROM work by keeping a charge on an isolated gate (a capacitor > in effect), but the isolation can't be perfect, otherwise it would not > be possible to program the chip in the first place. So over time the > stored charge trickles off the gate (insert appropriate quantum > semiconductor mechanical terms here). They are supposed to last many years if kept dark. Fluorescent lights have enough UV to erase them in some number of weeks, though, and sunlight in hours. Those black stickers should get them to 50 years or so, if properly programmed in the first place. -- glen ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Sun, 09 Mar 03 11:05:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ9KvRuwUaXiSULziXiuteObUc3VDULhk60Q5ZKNypazOe+s1MncXFK X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2003 11:50:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-71 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131549 In article , "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" wrote: > >"Lars Duening" wrote in message >news:1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com... >> Biggles wrote: > >(snip) > >> > > In general I've found stuff like power supplies and capacitors >> > > are the biggest risks. Oh yeah, and EPROM/EEPROM fade too..... >> > >> > EPROM/EEPROM fade? >> >> Yep. E(E)PROM work by keeping a charge on an isolated gate (a capacitor >> in effect), but the isolation can't be perfect, otherwise it would not >> be possible to program the chip in the first place. So over time the >> stored charge trickles off the gate (insert appropriate quantum >> semiconductor mechanical terms here). > >They are supposed to last many years if kept dark. Fluorescent lights have >enough >UV to erase them in some number of weeks, though, and sunlight in hours. > >Those black stickers should get them to 50 years or so, if properly >programmed in the first place. Then this begs the question similar to the light going out in the refrigerator. How do you know that you're keeping the light out? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:54:30 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3E6B71C6.2070207@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131525 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > Then this begs the question similar to the light going out > in the refrigerator. How do you know that you're keeping the > light out? Well I unplug the fridge? :) Ben. PS. Mind you that is easy to test, and my light does go out. ###### Message-ID: <3E6BF2AB.93CB7658@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1047254774 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:06:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:06:14 GMT Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:06:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131680 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > "Glen Herrmannsfeldt" wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Those black stickers should get them to 50 years or so, if properly > > programmed in the first place. > > Then this begs the question similar to the light going out > in the refrigerator. How do you know that you're keeping the > light out? > This reminds me of Larry Fine in the Three Stooges. He said: "I don't snore. One night I stayed up all night to see if I snored, and I didn't." And of course everyone remembers the famous quote from the British Foreign Secretary prior to World War I: "The refrigerator lights are going out all over Europe..." -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 20:16:50 -0700 Lines: 8 Message-ID: <1frkg0o.lc3yu91nln41sN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.com (198.31.26.33) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1047266211 65265059 198.31.26.33 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131670 wrote: > Then this begs the question similar to the light going out > in the refrigerator. Now you reminded me of one episode of the TV show 'Sledge Hammer', where Hammer tries to open a refrigerator and shoot the light before it goes on. ###### From: steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: 11 Mar 2003 14:55:01 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: <9307085f.0303111455.506a23ef@posting.google.com> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.168.131.19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1047423301 14793 127.0.0.1 (11 Mar 2003 22:55:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2003 22:55:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!telefonica.de!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131824 dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu wrote in message news:... > Biggles wrote: > > Lars Duening wrote: > >>> EPROM/EEPROM fade? > > >> Yep. E(E)PROM work by keeping a charge on an isolated gate (a capacitor > >> in effect), but the isolation can't be perfect, otherwise it would not > >> be possible to program the chip in the first place. So over time the > >> stored charge trickles off the gate (insert appropriate quantum > >> semiconductor mechanical terms here). > > > Great. I guess my grandchildren may not see what computing was for the > > average person in the 70's/80's. I suppose emulators will have to do, > > although it's really not the same. I'm off to play Wavy Navy before the > > PROM's expire.... > > Well, as long as you keep the ROM images around and keep copying them onto > newer media, you should be able to show your grandkids the old hardware. > Of course, some other rebuilding may be needed (caps, new [E|EE]PROMS, > etc). > > Another thing you might want to explore is reimplementing old hardware on > FPGA. Examples: http://c64upgra.de/c-one/ (C64) and > http://www.mindspring.com/~2600onachip/ (Atari 2600). Now if only the Apple //e could be put on a single chip. ;) -uso. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: 12 Mar 2003 00:48:02 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 41 Message-ID: <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <9307085f.0303111455.506a23ef@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1047426482 715 10.0.3.2 (11 Mar 2003 23:48:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Mar 2003 23:48:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131831 steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius) writes: > dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu wrote in message news:... > > > > Well, as long as you keep the ROM images around and keep copying them onto > > newer media, you should be able to show your grandkids the old hardware. > > Of course, some other rebuilding may be needed (caps, new [E|EE]PROMS, > > etc). > > > > Another thing you might want to explore is reimplementing old hardware on > > FPGA. Examples: http://c64upgra.de/c-one/ (C64) and > > http://www.mindspring.com/~2600onachip/ (Atari 2600). > > Now if only the Apple //e could be put on a single chip. ;) Any sufficiently simple computer (that includes any 8bit micro, by a wide margin) can today be put into an single FPGA chip. The way the 2600 guy is doing it, is correct. Why the c64 project is using 2 FPGAs and an separate 6502 chip (originally soldered in, now an slot and processor modules) is beyond me. The reason given on the website (processor needs too much space in the FPGA) is seriously outdated. Todays $50 FPGAs such as XC2S200 will fit any 8bit microprocessors in 1/4..1/2 of an single chip! I am aiming an PDP-10 (KA10) clone at that chip. 1/2 of the instruction set and all central mechanisms are done in 1/4 space used. Aim is 1/3..1/2 processor, 1/4..1/3 memory managment, rest IO devices. For an project that wants to be an universal (and reloadable!) 8bit clone having to have hard swappable modules for every processor type is nonsensical. In particular as completed 6502 and Z80 clones are available for free from the net. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### Message-ID: <3E6FB408.6B87F5BC@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <9307085f.0303111455.506a23ef@posting.google.com> <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1047500885 12.241.15.59 (Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:28:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:28:05 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:28:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131920 Neil Franklin wrote: > > steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius) writes: > > > dgriffi@cs.csbuak.edu wrote in message news:... > > > > > > Well, as long as you keep the ROM images around and keep copying them onto > > > newer media, you should be able to show your grandkids the old hardware. > > > Of course, some other rebuilding may be needed (caps, new [E|EE]PROMS, > > > etc). > > > > > > Another thing you might want to explore is reimplementing old hardware on > > > FPGA. Examples: http://c64upgra.de/c-one/ (C64) and > > > http://www.mindspring.com/~2600onachip/ (Atari 2600). > > > > Now if only the Apple //e could be put on a single chip. ;) > > Any sufficiently simple computer (that includes any 8bit micro, by a > wide margin) can today be put into an single FPGA chip. > > The way the 2600 guy is doing it, is correct. Why the c64 project is > using 2 FPGAs and an separate 6502 chip (originally soldered in, now > an slot and processor modules) is beyond me. The reason given on the > website (processor needs too much space in the FPGA) is seriously > outdated. > IIRC, the new C64 project is *not* using a 6502 chip...it is using a 65816 chip, which is a sixteen bit version of the 6502. That would certainly take up more space in the FPGA. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: 12 Mar 2003 23:31:38 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6usmtsnrn9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <9307085f.0303111455.506a23ef@posting.google.com> <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3E6FB408.6B87F5BC@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1047508298 1347 10.0.3.2 (12 Mar 2003 22:31:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Mar 2003 22:31:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131921 Charles Richmond writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > steve@dosius.zzn.com (Dosius) writes: > > > > > Now if only the Apple //e could be put on a single chip. ;) > > > > Any sufficiently simple computer (that includes any 8bit micro, by a > > wide margin) can today be put into an single FPGA chip. > > > > The way the 2600 guy is doing it, is correct. Why the c64 project is > > using 2 FPGAs and an separate 6502 chip (originally soldered in, now > > an slot and processor modules) is beyond me. The reason given on the > > website (processor needs too much space in the FPGA) is seriously > > outdated. > > > IIRC, the new C64 project is *not* using a 6502 chip...it is using > a 65816 chip, which is a sixteen bit version of the 6502. Which is roughly the same thing. Index registers and stack pointer widended 8->16bit. A few more instructions. And an very primitive 16->24bit address extension section. Still smaller than an Z80. > That > would certainly take up more space in the FPGA. Hardly any. Not relevantly more. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### Message-ID: <3E6FF4BE.357F676E@gazonk.del> From: "Foobar T. Clown" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:02:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.151.166.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1047524576 141.151.166.230 (Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:02:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:02:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131937 Biggles wrote: > > Great. I guess my grandchildren may not see what computing was for > the average person in the 70's/80's. I suppose emulators will have > to do, although it's really not the same. It might not be too bad, assuming a full immersion virtual reality emulator. I'm picturing a full, photo-realistic simulation of the computer, the 12" color TV set sitting on top of it, the cassette recorder, cassettes, etc. Throw in appropriate audio and tactile cues, and it could be a pretty decent recreation of the experience. -- Foo! ###### Message-ID: <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> From: "Foobar T. Clown" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:27:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.151.166.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny02.gnilink.net 1047526024 141.151.166.230 (Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:27:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 22:27:04 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131935 Biggles wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > >> > > Computing for the average person in the 1970's was their phone > > or electric bill...or maybe the department store bill. Most > > people in the 1970's had *no* computers...and many had *no* > > hand-held calculators. > > Yes. The above applies for the third world, now.... Maybe so for computers, but calculators are dirt cheap, and they don't need to be plugged in, and a lot of them don't even need batteries. I'm pretty sure that there aren't many places on earth where the average person could not have one if he really wanted it. OTOH, there probably are a lot of places on earth where you'd have to search far and wide to find somebody who wouldn't gladly give up a calculator in exchange for a good plastic water jug or a garden hoe. As for the 70's, that was a decade of considerable change. In 1970, There was only ONE hand held, four function calculator: http://www.hpmuseum.org/ffcurta.htm You could buy it from an ad that ran in the back of Scientific American for something like $350 dollars. (Remember, a gallon of gas cost about a quarter back then). By 1979, when I was a high school senior, we were REQUIRED to have a scientific calculator with trig functions for some of our math and science classes. -- Foo! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 12:45:04 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1047531618 22404 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed2.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132075 "Foobar T. Clown" writes: >Biggles wrote: >> >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> >> > Computing for the average person in the 1970's was their phone >> > or electric bill...or maybe the department store bill. Most >> > people in the 1970's had *no* computers...and many had *no* >> > hand-held calculators. >> >> Yes. The above applies for the third world, now.... >Maybe so for computers, but calculators are dirt cheap, and they >don't need to be plugged in, and a lot of them don't even need >batteries. I'm pretty sure that there aren't many places on >earth where the average person could not have one if he really >wanted it. >OTOH, there probably are a lot of places on earth where you'd >have to search far and wide to find somebody who wouldn't gladly >give up a calculator in exchange for a good plastic water jug or >a garden hoe. >As for the 70's, that was a decade of considerable change. >In 1970, There was only ONE hand held, four function calculator: > http://www.hpmuseum.org/ffcurta.htm >You could buy it from an ad that ran in the back of Scientific >American for something like $350 dollars. (Remember, a gallon >of gas cost about a quarter back then). >By 1979, when I was a high school senior, we were REQUIRED to >have a scientific calculator with trig functions for some of our >math and science classes. Was that because they thought you were hopeless at using tables and slide-rules? :-) -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 08:30:15 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Message-ID: <20030313083015.44ad973f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Organization: EuroNet Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Mar 2003 15:31:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0610.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1047569504 maya.euronet.nl 23914 194.134.210.101:1740 X-Complaints-To: abuse@euronet.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!maya.euronet.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132048 On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 03:27:04 GMT "Foobar T. Clown" wrote: FTC> By 1979, when I was a high school senior, we were REQUIRED to FTC> have a scientific calculator with trig functions for some of our FTC> math and science classes. Hmmm, I took my A levels in 1977. We were permitted to use calculators, but we were expected to be able to use tables and/or slide rules and most of us were faster with a slide rule (8 years of daily practice) than with a calculator - which oddly enough didn't stop most of us choosing to use calculators. IIRC calculators were not permitted in my O levels in 1975, but a decent slide rule was essential. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> From: "Foobar T. Clown" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 01:31:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.151.168.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrdny01.gnilink.net 1047864718 141.151.168.36 (Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:31:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:31:58 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller2.gnilink.net!nwrdny01.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132312 Bernd Felsche wrote: > > "Foobar T. Clown" writes: > > >By 1979, when I was a high school senior, we were REQUIRED to > >have a scientific calculator with trig functions for some of our > >math and science classes. > > Was that because they thought you were hopeless at using tables and > slide-rules? :-) 1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days. It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use one for real. Tables... I vaguely remember learning about how to read logarithm tables and, about linear interpolation. We probably even had home work on that subject, but I don't remember ever having to USE tables in the solution of some OTHER homework problem. -- Foo! ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <4nga7vcbroljt7tavv0o59pakdrj9a8ghk@4ax.com> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 03:37:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1047872267 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:37:47 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 20:37:47 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!ps01-sjc1.MISMATCH!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132376 On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 01:31:58 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "Foobar T. Clown" wrote: >Bernd Felsche wrote: >> >> "Foobar T. Clown" writes: >> >> >By 1979, when I was a high school senior, we were REQUIRED to >> >have a scientific calculator with trig functions for some of our >> >math and science classes. >> >> Was that because they thought you were hopeless at using tables and >> slide-rules? :-) > >1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' >demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or >six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days. >It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use >one for real. > >Tables... I vaguely remember learning about how to read logarithm >tables and, about linear interpolation. We probably even had home >work on that subject, but I don't remember ever having to USE tables >in the solution of some OTHER homework problem. Pffhh! Newbie! ;^> Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:18:32 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Message-ID: <20030317071832.0e085ac7.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Organization: EuroNet Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Mar 2003 06:44:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.234.209.203 X-Trace: 1047883454 maya.euronet.nl 23905 62.234.209.203:1091 X-Complaints-To: abuse@euronet.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!maya.euronet.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132353 On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 01:31:58 GMT "Foobar T. Clown" wrote: FTC> 1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' How old were you then ? That was about the time I left school. FTC> demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or FTC> six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days. Ye gods. For learning the principles of slide rules - we made our own Napiers Bones. That would have been first year maths in 1970 I think. FTC> It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use FTC> one for real. Damn but that was recent history - between 1970 and 1975 slide rule practice was a daily event. It's amazing how quickly they became subjects of a history lesson. FTC> Tables... I vaguely remember learning about how to read logarithm FTC> tables and, about linear interpolation. We probably even had home FTC> work on that subject, but I don't remember ever having to USE tables FTC> in the solution of some OTHER homework problem. Gronk, my four figure tables were the most dog eared publication I had in my school days. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 12:18:09 +0000 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> <20030317071832.0e085ac7.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: Nick Spalding NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup072-a.ts551.cwt.esat.net (193.203.140.72) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1047903511 72332621 193.203.140.72 (16 [32922]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/2.0.0.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dialup072-a.ts551.cwt.esat.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132370 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote, in <20030317071832.0e085ac7.steveo@eircom.net>: > On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 01:31:58 GMT > "Foobar T. Clown" wrote: > > FTC> 1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' > > How old were you then ? That was about the time I left school. > > FTC> demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or > FTC> six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days. > > Ye gods. For learning the principles of slide rules - we made > our own Napiers Bones. That would have been first year maths in 1970 > I think. > > FTC> It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use > FTC> one for real. > > Damn but that was recent history - between 1970 and 1975 slide > rule practice was a daily event. It's amazing how quickly they became > subjects of a history lesson. > > FTC> Tables... I vaguely remember learning about how to read logarithm > FTC> tables and, about linear interpolation. We probably even had home > FTC> work on that subject, but I don't remember ever having to USE tables > FTC> in the solution of some OTHER homework problem. > > Gronk, my four figure tables were the most dog eared publication > I had in my school days. I still have mine and I left school in 1949. The most recent set I have is a 1958 edition of Chambers's Seven-Figure Mathematical Tables. I also have a 1940 edition of Inman's Nautical Tables and a 1953 edition of the three-volume set of AP3270 Sight Reduction Tables for Air Navigation. I like tables. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 15:52:46 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> <20030317071832.0e085ac7.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132352 Nick Spalding wrote: > I still have mine and I left school in 1949. The most recent set I have is > a 1958 edition of Chambers's Seven-Figure Mathematical Tables. I also have I have a 1942 edition on my desk, purchased for ten bob a couple of weeks back ;) > a 1940 edition of Inman's Nautical Tables and a 1953 edition of the > three-volume set of AP3270 Sight Reduction Tables for Air Navigation. I > like tables. I used to have a three-volume "Manual of Gear Design" that was hand-written and typeset from that rather than typeset. Gorgeous. I don't know where it's gone :( pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 02:42:34 +0000 Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> <20030317071832.0e085ac7.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 86.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk (212.35.234.86) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1047955552 71022847 212.35.234.86 (16 [161127]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!86.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132613 In article <20030317071832.0e085ac7.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 01:31:58 GMT >"Foobar T. Clown" wrote: > >FTC> 1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' > > How old were you then ? That was about the time I left school. > >FTC> demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or >FTC> six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days > > Ye gods. For learning the principles of slide rules - we made >our own Napiers Bones. That would have been first year maths in 1970 >I think. >FTC> It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use >FTC> one for real. > > Damn but that was recent history - between 1970 and 1975 slide >rule practice was a daily event. It's amazing how quickly they became >subjects of a history lesson. > "O" levels for me in about 1960. All calculations performed with log tables. Slide rules forbidden. (Hint - the old farts who taught couldn't use slip sticks) Allowed for "A" levels. Bloody frustrating as a kid, Dad taught me to use a slide rule at an early age, at least I could use it for homework to check my logs work for gross errors. In retrospect, like so many other things at school (Latin, etc) boring at the time, but I found the payback later in life. The only tabular data that find an occasional use for now is my 1963 copy of Callendars' Steam Tables: if I needed to use them more often, I'm sure that I could knock up some ForTran (or FOCAL)... >FTC> Tables... I vaguely remember learning about how to read logarithm >FTC> tables and, about linear interpolation. We probably even had home >FTC> work on that subject, but I don't remember ever having to USE tables >FTC> in the solution of some OTHER homework problem. > > Gronk, my four figure tables were the most dog eared publication >I had in my school days. In my day, that would have been a copy of "Lady Chatterley's Lover". D.H.L. was an old boy of the school, the subject was "sensitive" and like the products of another old boy, John Dane Player, something secreted in hidden pockets, produced only in quiet places, when authority was looking the other way. Regards, David P. ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: 18 Mar 2003 13:44:17 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> NNTP-Posting-Host: vpn-129-156-96-15.emea.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1047995057 9234 129.156.96.15 (18 Mar 2003 13:44:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Mar 2003 13:44:17 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!feed.news.qwest.net!namche.sun.com!news1brm.central.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132528 In article <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del>, "Foobar T. Clown" writes: > > 1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' > demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or > six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days. > It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use > one for real. My dad has a high accuracy one, but instead of being linear, it's wrapped round a brass cylinder like a screwthread with a second cylinder moving/rotating like a telecope. I would probably recognise the make if someone mentioned it, but I can't recall it off the top of my head although it might be German. I used slide rules during my secondary schooling in the 1970's. Also had a calculator then -- I think we could use either/both in exams (and logbooks), but programmable calculators were not allowed. I wish I still had one of my slide rules. I seem to recall going through a few whilst at school (typically cursor would break). I still seem to have all my 1970's calculators;-) First was a Prinztronic(sp?) with just 4 functions and sqrt, LED display and probably about 1 hour battery life, and second was a Sharp scientific one (which was the first time I heard of Sharp). Both still work. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> Cancel-Lock: sha1:Dpi6sDxropZapR4xgBu859nWY4k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 13 Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:43:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.58.58.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1048005833 65.58.58.25 (Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:43:53 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 08:43:53 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!194.168.222.21.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132482 andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) writes: > I used slide rules during my secondary schooling in the 1970's. > Also had a calculator then -- I think we could use either/both > in exams (and logbooks), but programmable calculators were not > allowed. i saved up so i could buy the cheapest one from the sears catalogue when i was 12 ... i think it was something like $3.89. no idea where it is now. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### From: Prof Karl Kleine Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:53:09 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Fachhochschule Jena, Germany Lines: 30 Sender: Prof Karl Kleine Message-ID: References: <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E69C152.CD65BD2F@ev1.net> <3e69cd09$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E6FFA67.758A92D7@gazonk.del> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> NNTP-Posting-Host: hoare.gw.fh-jena.de X-Trace: beta.szi.fh-jena.de 1048085589 19821 194.94.38.12 (19 Mar 2003 14:53:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@beta.szi.fh-jena.de NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 14:53:09 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news.uni-jena.de!news.fh-jena.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132666 Andrew Gabriel wrote: > In article <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del>, > "Foobar T. Clown" writes: >> >> 1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' >> demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or >> six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days. >> It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use >> one for real. > My dad has a high accuracy one, but instead of being linear, it's > wrapped round a brass cylinder like a screwthread with a second > cylinder moving/rotating like a telecope. I would probably > recognise the make if someone mentioned it, but I can't recall it > off the top of my head although it might be German. google for "Otis King" [...] > -- > Andrew Gabriel > Consultant Software Engineer ________________________________________________________ Prof. Karl Kleine http://www.fh-jena.de/~kleine Fachhochschule Jena kleine@fh-jena.de Carl-Zeiss-Promenade 2 +49-3641-205-502 [fax -503] D-07745 Jena, Germany ###### From: cdl@deeptow.(none) (Carl Lowenstein) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:37:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Marine Physical Lab, U.C. San Diego Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del> NNTP-Posting-Host: deeptow.ucsd.edu X-Trace: news1.ucsd.edu 1048109864 11583 192.135.238.192 (19 Mar 2003 21:37:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news1.ucsd.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:37:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cdl@deeptow.(none) (Carl Lowenstein) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!xmission!news.cc.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.ucsd.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132629 In article , Andrew Gabriel wrote: >In article <3E752568.C2DD9FC2@gazonk.del>, > "Foobar T. Clown" writes: >> >> 1978, or maybe 1979: One of my math teachers brought out a big ol' >> demonstration slide rule (a foot and a half wide and maybe five or >> six feet long.) He showed us how it was used back in The Old Days. >> It was basically a history lesson. We never were expected to use >> one for real. > >My dad has a high accuracy one, but instead of being linear, it's >wrapped round a brass cylinder like a screwthread with a second >cylinder moving/rotating like a telecope. I would probably >recognise the make if someone mentioned it, but I can't recall it >off the top of my head although it might be German. Otis King. British. Sometimes sells for exorbitant prices on eBay. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst@ucsd.edu ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <9307085f.0303111455.506a23ef@posting.google.com> <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 23:11:12 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.249.171 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1048137875 206.246.249.171 (Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:24:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:24:35 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132722 In article <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Todays $50 FPGAs such as XC2S200 will fit any 8bit microprocessors in > 1/4..1/2 of an single chip! I am aiming an PDP-10 (KA10) clone at that > chip. 1/2 of the instruction set and all central mechanisms are done > in 1/4 space used. Aim is 1/3..1/2 processor, 1/4..1/3 memory managment, > rest IO devices. Yes, but what about the support chips? For example, the Atari had several custom chips that were non-trivial. Seems doable, but I would imagine it would need more than one FPGA. Of course, it would be cool to see it. > For an project that wants to be an universal (and reloadable!) 8bit > clone having to have hard swappable modules for every processor type > is nonsensical. In particular as completed 6502 and Z80 clones are > available for free from the net. Can you get one to the point where you can hook up a terminal and boot up CP/M and run WordStar? That would be interesting. I'd also like to use that for really small embedded projects. ###### Lines: 24 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: fouldragon@aol.com.ru (Marada C. Shradrakaii) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 20 Mar 2003 08:43:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Message-ID: <20030320034337.17176.00000091@mb-df.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132790 >> For an project that wants to be an universal (and reloadable!) 8bit >> clone having to have hard swappable modules for every processor type >> is nonsensical. In particular as completed 6502 and Z80 clones are >> available for free from the net. Well, why not make a 6502-on-a-FPGA and plug that in the socket? Actually, I can see using the hard-wired processor as a money-saver, as it may well be cheaper than the analogous FPGA. Moreover, what you can do with a box like that depends on configuring the entire machine-- a fairly intensive task. What good is it to be able to emulate the Florko 7000's CPU, if the rest of the Florko 7000 hardware is not implemented? Similarly, if all that's available out of the box is a 6502-based model, why not just stick with a 6502 you can replace if and when replacements appear. In addition, designing your own CPU may prove to be an unneeded feature-- the most common 8-bit CPUs are still available, and it's not something that many people are going to need to modify if their goal is either new development or emulating their fave 8-bit. -- Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii On the Internet, all roads lead to either pornography or a GNU/Linux HOWTO. Which way are you going? Mail hint: Not in Russia ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: 20 Mar 2003 21:34:11 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 59 Message-ID: <6ufzphu69o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <9307085f.0303111455.506a23ef@posting.google.com> <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1048192451 605 10.0.3.2 (20 Mar 2003 20:34:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Mar 2003 20:34:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132867 Charles Shannon Hendrix writes: > In article <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > > > Todays $50 FPGAs such as XC2S200 will fit any 8bit microprocessors in > > 1/4..1/2 of an single chip! I am aiming an PDP-10 (KA10) clone at that > > chip. 1/2 of the instruction set and all central mechanisms are done > > in 1/4 space used. Aim is 1/3..1/2 processor, 1/4..1/3 memory managment, > > rest IO devices. > > Yes, but what about the support chips? > > For example, the Atari had several custom chips that were non-trivial. Unlikely to be much larger than 10-20'000 transistors, given the date of introduction of the VCS. So that is 2'500-5'000 2-input NANDs. Same size as the 6502 itsself. Harmless in comparison to the XC2S200 FPGA, that fits the equivalent of 30-200'000 2-input NANDs (depending on use). Strictly the XC2S200 is 56x84=4704 4-input random function elements, each paired with an hardwired 2:1 Mux and an Flipflop, plus 14 512byte SRAMs, plus 140-264 user IO pins. That is a cheap $50 FPGA. If you can fit in 16x24=384 element/Mux/FF and 4 SRAMs, you are in at $5 (XC2S15). So space is no problem. Knowing what those chips did, may be, given how Atari was closed on documentation. > Seems doable, but I would imagine it would need more than one > FPGA. Not with todays large ones. 10 years ago it would have still required multiple. > > For an project that wants to be an universal (and reloadable!) 8bit > > clone having to have hard swappable modules for every processor type > > is nonsensical. In particular as completed 6502 and Z80 clones are > > available for free from the net. > > Can you get one to the point where you can hook up a terminal and > boot up CP/M and run WordStar? That would be interesting. Sure one can. Anything that can be done on a chip, can be done on an FPGA, subject to size and speed limits, which correspond to hardwired chips about 6-9 (2-3 generations) years earlier. > I'd also like to use that for really small embedded projects. No problem. Just programming work. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? Date: 20 Mar 2003 21:43:24 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 58 Message-ID: <6ud6klu5ub.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20030320034337.17176.00000091@mb-df.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1048193008 605 10.0.3.2 (20 Mar 2003 20:43:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Mar 2003 20:43:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132868 fouldragon@aol.com.ru (Marada C. Shradrakaii) writes: > >> For an project that wants to be an universal (and reloadable!) 8bit > >> clone having to have hard swappable modules for every processor type > >> is nonsensical. In particular as completed 6502 and Z80 clones are > >> available for free from the net. > > Well, why not make a 6502-on-a-FPGA and plug that in the socket? Now that would have all disadvantages. Modules that need plugging, and having to clone the CPU. > Actually, I can see using the hard-wired processor as a money-saver, as it may > well be cheaper than the analogous FPGA. Not any more today. CPU + module print + plug + socket on main print + smaller FPGA for the custom stuff. All adds up. Just an larger FPGA is cheaper today. Add in that the CPU/module/plug are pay multiple times if you want multiple CPUs. And the extra flexibility of no hardwired connection module<->main, and "rebooting" into an different CPU at any time without open case and replugging. And instant from-Internet CPU upgrades. > Moreover, what you can do with a box like that depends on configuring the > entire machine-- a fairly intensive task. That was implicit in the entire (sub-)thread. We were talking about an re-implemented Atari VCS and C64. The VCS full-FPGA and the C64 with an hardware CPU and the rest in FPGA. And contrasting the 2 approaches. > What good is it to be able to > emulate the Florko 7000's CPU, if the rest of the Florko 7000 hardware is not > implemented? That has to be implemented anyway. > Similarly, if all that's available out of the box is a 6502-based > model, why not just stick with a 6502 you can replace if and when replacements > appear. You can not download an newer processor from the Internet, install and reboot. You can with the FPGA, just like downloading and installing an new OS release or even an different OS. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: Keeping old hardware alive? References: <3e68e481$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1047067153.21881@saucer.planet.gong> <3e68fbfc$0$12819$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <1frgk4w.10tcpot17d0itcN%lars@bearnip.com> <3e696408$0$12817$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <9307085f.0303111455.506a23ef@posting.google.com> <6u65qpihxp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6ufzphu69o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 31 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:54:18 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.210 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1048210036 209.96.185.210 (Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:27:16 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:27:16 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!takemy.news.telefonica.de!telefonica.de!news0.de.colt.net!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:133193 In article <6ufzphu69o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Unlikely to be much larger than 10-20'000 transistors, given the date of > introduction of the VCS. So that is 2'500-5'000 2-input NANDs. Same size > as the 6502 itsself. I mean the 8-bit computers, not the VCS. Antic, POKEY, and the gang are probably small, but there are quite a few of them to cram into one FPGA it seems. My old univeristy now has a graduate degree in parallel computation, and they use FPGAs to build parallel computers. > So space is no problem. Knowing what those chips did, may be, given > how Atari was closed on documentation. Sounds good then. I think there is enough information about Atari chips. While they were closed, there was a lot of information on them. You probably have enough information to create a compatible clone, and there are plenty of them still working for testing purposes. > Not with todays large ones. 10 years ago it would have still required > multiple. Good.