From: lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Push and pop first used when? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 10:15:02 -0000 Organization: Electric Teeth Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (BSD/OS) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!ecngs!feeder.ecngs.de!zen.net.uk!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!195.40.4.120.MISMATCH!easynet-quince!easynet.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130841 I have been googling for an hour to find out when the terms push and pop were first used to describe stack operations. I have even -- -- consulted the FAQ for this group. But no luck. I have a feeling that it's sometime in the 60s or 70s. Found the earliest mention of push and pop in some Burroughs instructions. Also found linked with Vaxen and PDPs. But that's just the web. Does anyone here know when and where push and pop were first used? -- Karen Lofstrom lofstrom@lava.net ======================================================================== "All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of an unseen hand." -- Sir Boyle Roche ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 03 09:44:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbGPQHfWEIFK9OT2ADJfQ1VsDXO8lpqLu7tHc/nZU6K/7nt0JzKK8mZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2003 10:28:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-128 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130822 In article , lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) wrote: >I have been googling for an hour to find out when the terms push and pop >were first used to describe stack operations. I have even -- -- >consulted the FAQ for this group. But no luck. I have a feeling that it's >sometime in the 60s or 70s. Found the earliest mention of push and pop in >some Burroughs instructions. Also found linked with Vaxen and PDPs. But >that's just the web. The PDP-10 instruction set had PUSHJ, POPJ, PUSH, POP which did the obvious things. I played on a KA10 in 1969. > >Does anyone here know when and where push and pop were first used? > I don't know but my earliest encounter with the instructions were 1969. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: Mon, 03 Mar 03 12:02:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYXN/eNASzKzKxq7HoOFLT9P/nr7Cml9dVwS3L/G/Mc01mQtiBb2jJc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2003 12:47:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-244 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130932 In article , lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) wrote: >In article <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > >> Not a first, but the popular PDP-10 and its predecessor PDP-6 from >> about 1964 had PUSH and POP instructions. > >Yet more googling and I'm fairly sure that PUSH and POP were first used in >1963 on the Burroughs B5000. Designed by Bob Barton. Probably influenced >by a Rice University custom-designed computer that used operations called >SAVE and UNSAVE that seemed to have worked like PUSH and POP. > >There! Definitively stating something on Usenet is bound to provoke a >reaction. People will pop (!) out of the woodwork to prove me wrong :) Huh? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: 03 Mar 03 12:16:35 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 50 Message-ID: <1876.192T1751T7364900@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-225.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!lex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130940 In article sarr@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) writes: >In article , >Karen Lofstrom wrote: > >>Yet more googling and I'm fairly sure that PUSH and POP were first >>used in 1963 on the Burroughs B5000. Designed by Bob Barton. Probably >>influenced by a Rice University custom-designed computer that used >>operations called SAVE and UNSAVE that seemed to have worked like >>PUSH and POP. Let's pause here for a little programmer's cheer: Shift to the left! Shift to the right! Push down, pop up, Byte, byte, byte! But I digress... >It will be morning in the UK eventually, but in the meantime I'll >mention the English Electric KDF-9 (spelling?) that, I think, went >back before 1960. Once again I'll turn to my favourite source of apocryphal computer history, "The Devil's DP Dictionary" by Stan Kelly-Bootle: nest n. & v.trans [Origin: first used on English Electric KDF9 system, Kidsgrove, England (1962)] 1. n. A well-feathered {stack} where data and instructions can be mother-henned and incubated for indefinite periods. 2. v.trans To expose (loops, subroutines) to premature and/or unexpected {calls}. To each such exposure a positive integer, known as the depth, is assigned, indicating the approximate number of person-months needed to correct the situation. New string vests for ALGOL compilers; A night on the nest with the KDF9ers; Palimpsestuous programs with nebulous wings, These are a few of my favorite things. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: 02 Mar 2003 11:41:00 +0100 Organization: nocrew Lines: 14 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: junk.nocrew.org (213.242.147.30) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1046601913 60923338 213.242.147.30 (16 [140306]) X-Orig-Path: junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!junk.nocrew.ORG!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130831 lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) writes: > I have been googling for an hour to find out when the terms push and > pop were first used to describe stack operations. I have even -- > -- consulted the FAQ for this group. But no luck. I have a > feeling that it's sometime in the 60s or 70s. Found the earliest > mention of push and pop in some Burroughs instructions. Also found > linked with Vaxen and PDPs. Not a first, but the popular PDP-10 and its predecessor PDP-6 from about 1964 had PUSH and POP instructions. -- Lars Brinkhoff, Services for Unix, Linux, GCC, PDP-10, HTTP Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ ###### From: lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 00:35:57 -0000 Organization: Electric Teeth Message-ID: References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (BSD/OS) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130898 In article <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Not a first, but the popular PDP-10 and its predecessor PDP-6 from > about 1964 had PUSH and POP instructions. Yet more googling and I'm fairly sure that PUSH and POP were first used in 1963 on the Burroughs B5000. Designed by Bob Barton. Probably influenced by a Rice University custom-designed computer that used operations called SAVE and UNSAVE that seemed to have worked like PUSH and POP. There! Definitively stating something on Usenet is bound to provoke a reaction. People will pop (!) out of the woodwork to prove me wrong :) -- Karen Lofstrom lofstrom@lava.net ---------------------------------------------------------- You cannot truly appreciate Atlas Shrugged until you have read it in the original Klingon. --Sea Wasp ###### Message-ID: From: Jonathan Griffitts Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Lines: 83 Organization: AnyWare Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-M () Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 01:15:09 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.238.99.86 X-Complaints-To: news@iccx.net X-Trace: news.incc.net 1046679319 205.238.99.86 (Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:15:19 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:15:19 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!nntp5.savvis.net!uunet!dfw.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.incc.net!spamcop.net!jgriffitts Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130888 In article <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>, Lars Brinkhoff writes >lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) writes: >> I have been googling for an hour to find out when the terms push and >> pop were first used to describe stack operations. I have even -- >> -- consulted the FAQ for this group. But no luck. I have a >> feeling that it's sometime in the 60s or 70s. Found the earliest >> mention of push and pop in some Burroughs instructions. Also found >> linked with Vaxen and PDPs. > >Not a first, but the popular PDP-10 and its predecessor PDP-6 from >about 1964 had PUSH and POP instructions. The General Precision/Librascope L3055 processor had an indexing mode called "PDPM", which stood for "Push-Down/Pop Mode". (Why it was Push Down but not Pop Up, I dunno.) This processor was introduced in July, 1964. Since this is an obscure system, some historical notes: http://americanhistory.si.edu/scienceservice/052125.htm http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL64-l.html (scroll down a bit) Only 3 of these CPUs were made: two installed as a dual-processor mainframe in the Pentagon for the US Air Force project 473L. There was one more processor made for the same site as a CPU spare. This processor was also known by its military designation AN/FYQ-11. As I understand it, the Air Force never actually used it in a production mode. It was soon surplussed and Brigham Young University got the dual-CPU, where it was used by students for a long time. The spare CPU went to the University of Colorado, where it lived in obscurity in the basement of the Engineering Department (I had a key to that room from about 1974 on, and used the beast a fair amount). The U of Colorado system was scrapped in about 1981, the BYU ones had gone a few years earlier. It was a decimal machine with an accumulator. The word size was RECTANGULAR: 8 x 6 bits. This represented 8 decimal (BCD) digits, with the extra bits in each digit containing sign information and an optional floating-point exponent. Or it represented 8 6-bit characters. The integer instructions could operate on any contiguous field of characters/digits in the accumulator. There were about 18 index registers. The instruction set was quite complex, and apparently never completely debugged (some of the indexing modes didn't work). Each instruction occupied a single 8x6 word. It was all implemented in discrete transistor logic. The console was an IBM selectric-I typewriter (not the typeball, the conventional typewriter mechanism). The front panel had an ENORMOUS number of neon blinkenlights. The U of Colorado system ran completely from tape drives (7-track, 556 BPI). We programmed it with Fortran IV and LAP (Librascope Assembler Program) via punch cards. There were physically huge fixed disks that came with the system, but they never worked (the local story was that there had been head crashes during the initial bringup attempt). There were also a couple of multicolor graphics terminals that likewise never worked (but I never saw anyone really try to fix them), and a probably functional but completely useless crypto unit. Even more digression: I have really fond memories of that old machine. One thing that sticks in my memory is Fortran run-time error messages included the name of the guy who wrote the Fortran run-time system. The first line of the error report would read something like: FTIO VERSION xxx BY RAY VAN TASSLE We'd sometimes joke about it, "I just heard from Ray Van Tassle again." I often wondered who Ray Van Tassle was. Are you out there, Ray? Your name is indelibly inscribed on my memory, associated with dumb Fortran mistakes and core dumps. -- Jonathan Griffitts AnyWare Engineering Boulder, CO, USA ###### Sender: cstacy@BONK Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: cstacy@dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) Message-ID: Lines: 52 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:46:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.160.165.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1046681192 68.160.165.125 (Mon, 03 Mar 2003 03:46:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 03:46:32 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130887 >>>>> On Mon, 03 Mar 2003 00:35:57 -0000, Karen Lofstrom ("Karen") writes: Karen> In article <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> Not a first, but the popular PDP-10 and its predecessor PDP-6 from >> about 1964 had PUSH and POP instructions. Karen> Yet more googling and I'm fairly sure that PUSH and POP were first used in Karen> 1963 on the Burroughs B5000. Designed by Bob Barton. Probably influenced Karen> by a Rice University custom-designed computer that used operations called Karen> SAVE and UNSAVE that seemed to have worked like PUSH and POP. Karen> There! Definitively stating something on Usenet is bound to provoke a Karen> reaction. People will pop (!) out of the woodwork to prove me wrong :) I'd be leery of jumping to any conclusions based primarily on what you can find on the web or in a random newsgroup. But I think you've got the right information in this case, partly because it's what I remember being taught in the 70s. If the answer is important to you, I'd suggest chasing down some professors who teach historical computer architecture. Anyway, here's what I found out (and/or re-learned) from the web. Subroutines were invented in 1947 on EDSAC by David Wheeler, and they were called "Wheeler Jumps". Subroutine calling via a LIFO "stack" is a very old idea, invented by Willem Louis van der Poel in 1952. The B5000 (1961-1963) probably is the first machine with stack instructions. It was designed to be programmed in Algol (and COBOL), not assembler. It was more "stack based" than a machine like the PDP-10: it was RPN, like an HP calculator! For subroutine calling, it had stack pointer (SP) and frame pointer (FP) registers to manage call activation records. This machine had a number of other very cool features, too. Before the B5000, I think everything used the TSR/TSX method, with and without indexing hacks. (When the PDP-6 came along, it provided the full suite of transfer instructions with JSR, JSP, and JSA, just in case you didn't want to use PUSHJ. Oh yeah, and UUOs.) From reading the same web page that you probably did, I don't think the Rice Computer actually had stack instructions. In particular, SAVE/UNSAVE were SPIREL (monitor) entry points, not machine instruction opcodes. I looked up information on a lot of different computers and their instruction sets, but couldn't find detailed information on the various early Dutch machines (Testudo, PTERA, ZEBRA), and to be comprehensive I think you should check those out. Also, see Van der Poel's 1955 PhD thesis: "The Logical Principles of Some Simple Computers", for more clues. I think van der Poel is still alive, so maybe you could contact him through the Koninklijke Nederlandse Academie van Wetenschappen. I bet he would know which was the first computer that implemented his idea. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Reply-To: sarr@umich.edu Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) From: sarr@tetris.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) Lines: 17 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:57:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.211.2.208 X-Trace: news.itd.umich.edu 1046703464 141.211.2.208 (Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:57:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:57:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130944 In article , Karen Lofstrom wrote: > >Yet more googling and I'm fairly sure that PUSH and POP were first used in >1963 on the Burroughs B5000. Designed by Bob Barton. Probably influenced >by a Rice University custom-designed computer that used operations called >SAVE and UNSAVE that seemed to have worked like PUSH and POP. It will be morning in the UK eventually, but in the meantime I'll mention the English Electric KDF-9 (spelling?) that, I think, went back before 1960. -- -------- Sarr Blumson sarr@umich.edu voice: +1 734 998 9932 home: +1 734 665 9591 JSTOR, University of Michigan http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sarr/ ###### Message-ID: <3E6376F9.B2FC0F5E@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:44:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.39 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1046706298 12.90.173.39 (Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:44:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:44:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130921 Jonathan Griffitts wrote: > writes > >lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) writes: > > >> I have been googling for an hour to find out when the terms > >> push and pop were first used to describe stack operations. I > >> have even -- -- consulted the FAQ for this group. But > >> no luck. I have a feeling that it's sometime in the 60s or > >> 70s. Found the earliest mention of push and pop in some > >> Burroughs instructions. Also found linked with Vaxen and PDPs. > > > > Not a first, but the popular PDP-10 and its predecessor PDP-6 > > from about 1964 had PUSH and POP instructions. > > The General Precision/Librascope L3055 processor had an indexing > mode called "PDPM", which stood for "Push-Down/Pop Mode". (Why > it was Push Down but not Pop Up, I dunno.) This processor was > introduced in July, 1964. > ... snip ... I recall general discussions of stacks and queues in the hardware magazines of the later 50's under LIFO and FIFO. I believe the whole subject appeared in the expression compilation literature of the day, under the guise of 'shift/reduce'. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:40:39 -0000 Organization: Electric Teeth Message-ID: References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (BSD/OS) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130953 Thanks to all. I'm putting together a small report for the professor who said he'd give extra credit to anyone who could find out when PUSH and POP were first used. I *need* the credit; I'm much better at googling than I am at writing Java. I have credited by name anyone who gave me useful information, and also listed all the web sites. By professional historian standards, it ain't much. A professional job would mean extensive searches in the pre-1962 literature and interviews with surviving designers. But, I've done what I can. Again, thanks. -- Karen Lofstrom lofstrom@lava.net ---------------------------------------------------------- Oh what a cute wee thing! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: Tue, 04 Mar 03 10:21:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZDCqhz0qpQjj1WT/0qXWazPDmq+1r21QAFHLALvfXRkyGsbG8DQpMD X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2003 11:06:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-237 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130989 In article , lofstrom@lava.net (Karen Lofstrom) wrote: >Thanks to all. I'm putting together a small report for the professor who >said he'd give extra credit to anyone who could find out when PUSH and POP >were first used. I *need* the credit; I'm much better at googling than I >am at writing Java. I have credited by name anyone who gave me useful >information, and also listed all the web sites. Pfui. List some real code. Web sites.... ;-) I'd _write_ a program that used it and make a CREF listing (that shows both the assembler language and the machine language). > >By professional historian standards, it ain't much. A professional job >would mean extensive searches in the pre-1962 literature and interviews >with surviving designers. But, I've done what I can. Again, thanks. You're welcome. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:40:19 -0600 From: "Jeff Raben" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:40:12 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.42.67.193 X-Trace: sv3-Xz74Q6dh0MNEIqlRQai/1H/EYmclcdLr+rdC7kHwiJ59euxRWdtQV7KU/SzSu2QYdCzqtY/JV5zgjmD!QFJhizEjx/MEvIMs9BQ6GIzWE5J4EFy+T/fKlF4uDXSyZjyNv5nUp2eor+37 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131064 "preserve" and "restore" were "verbs" in IPL-V and ran as far back as the IBM-650 and IBM-709. My dusty manual was prepared by the RAND Corporation in 1960. -- Jeff Raben ... and stir with a Runcible spoon "Karen Lofstrom" wrote in message news:v63md6sjqr9u92@corp.supernews.com... > I have been googling for an hour to find out when the terms push and pop > were first used to describe stack operations. I have even -- -- > consulted the FAQ for this group. But no luck. I have a feeling that it's > sometime in the 60s or 70s. Found the earliest mention of push and pop in > some Burroughs instructions. Also found linked with Vaxen and PDPs. But > that's just the web. > > Does anyone here know when and where push and pop were first used? > > -- > Karen Lofstrom lofstrom@lava.net > ======================================================================== > "All along the untrodden paths of the future, I can see the footprints of > an unseen hand." -- Sir Boyle Roche ###### From: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:23:47 -0500 Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Lines: 11 Sender: ab528@freenet.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Message-ID: References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3E6376F9.B2FC0F5E@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p6tc2.std.dialup.ncf.ca X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1046881433 2834 134.117.137.207 (5 Mar 2003 16:23:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Mar 2003 16:23:53 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Given-From: "Heinz Wiggeshoff" Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!torn!cunews!freenet-news!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131046 "CBFalconer" wrote in message news:3E6376F9.B2FC0F5E@yahoo.com... >I recall general discussions of stacks and queues in the hardware > magazines of the later 50's under LIFO and FIFO. I believe the > whole subject appeared in the expression compilation literature of > the day, under the guise of 'shift/reduce'. Now that brings back memories of Knuth's LR(k) work, ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Push and pop first used when? References: <85isv29hkz.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Charlton Wilbur Message-ID: <87bs0o5gxj.fsf@mithril.chromatico.net> Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 21:30:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.203.164.19 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1046986225 151.203.164.19 (Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:30:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 16:30:25 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131240 >>>>> "KL" == Karen Lofstrom writes: KL> Thanks to all. I'm putting together a small report for the KL> professor who said he'd give extra credit to anyone who could KL> find out when PUSH and POP were first used. KL> By professional historian standards, it ain't much. A KL> professional job would mean extensive searches in the pre-1962 KL> literature and interviews with surviving designers. But, I've KL> done what I can. Again, thanks. I suspect that push and pop may date back to formal systems theory; weren't pushdown automata part of the early work that predated Turing machines? I know that I *learned about them* first.... Charlton