From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 12:42:05 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.35.58 X-Trace: 1046482981 27765 198.142.35.58 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-sanjose!news-in-sanjose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130728 I've got a Time Life Book which talks about Computer Software. In this it talks about the PDP-1 computer from the early 1960s & about one of the games written for it called "SpaceWar", I was suprised to see that this game had many varients (done by various hackers at MIT). Since a few people have been talking about the later PDP machines has anyone used this particular model (or may have even programmed SpaceWar), out of curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. The book also talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? For anyone who has used one, the book suggests it being some sort of minicomputer since it was smaller than mainframes of the time, would that be correct? One last thing. How did the games written for this machine compare with the arcade type written (like Space Invaders in 1978)? Only reason I ask it is because of some of varations of SpaceWar sound quite impressive. Thanks. Ross. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 01 Mar 03 14:03:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYjQhHDsF3x7tzOyJkDx4lTB1fXrZNnpr9rxVGtxN3ynLRCmejQO+Ch X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2003 14:47:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-64 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130627 In article <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com>, TLH 858 <ß@Ç.ÑÜ> wrote: >x-no-archive: yes > >Geoffrey G. Rochat seems to have said: > > >>For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, running >>on a PDP-1. That machine may also have been running SpaceWar at DEC's >>in-house computer museum, and it was definitely running SpaceWar at the MIT >>Electronics Research Society circa 1977. > >It certainly was running Spacewar when it was in Marlboro, and many of >the members of CC341 used to head over to play a game or three when >they had the chance. They did?! How the hell did I miss that? I bet you're talking about the guys who worked those odd hours ;-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 21:31:37 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.119.42 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1046485936 26799 208.244.119.42 (1 Mar 2003 02:32:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 02:32:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130647 > I've got a Time Life Book which talks about Computer Software. In this it > talks about the PDP-1 computer from the early 1960s & about one of the games > written for it called "SpaceWar", I was suprised to see that this game had > many varients (done by various hackers at MIT). > > Since a few people have been talking about the later PDP machines has anyone > used this particular model (or may have even programmed SpaceWar), out of > curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. The book also > talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze > being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly > used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? > > For anyone who has used one, the book suggests it being some sort of > minicomputer since it was smaller than mainframes of the time, would that be > correct? > > One last thing. How did the games written for this machine compare with the > arcade type written (like Space Invaders in 1978)? Only reason I ask it is > because of some of varations of SpaceWar sound quite impressive. Look at http://www.wheels.org/spacewar/index.html (among many other places) for details on SpaceWar. For information on the PDP-1, see http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp1/ . While a great deal of PDP-1 time was spent playing games, the PDP-1 was very much a serious machine. () I am familiar with SpaceWar for the PDP-1, the PDP-7 and the PDP-12. In all cases, the source language was very tightly coded assembler. These machines used vector-plotting CRT displays, sometimes under direct CPU control, sometimes (as on the 340 connected to the PDP-7 I knew) through vector-plotting hardware. Given the limitations enforced by these machines (small address spaces, slow discrete transistor logic, slow core memory), not only was assembler required to make a presentable game, but very clever assembler at that. These were state of the art real-time graphic applications in their day. And very well done. For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, running on a PDP-1. That machine may also have been running SpaceWar at DEC's in-house computer museum, and it was definitely running SpaceWar at the MIT Electronics Research Society circa 1977. The machine is currently at the Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale. I do not believe it is running. The RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island (www.osfn.org/rcs) currently has a PDP-12 that runs SpaceWar. At the Vintage Computer Faire East a couple of years ago Carl Friend and Mike Umbricht had the -12 running SpaceWar on display, and another fellow there (whose name I did not catch) had a "real" (meaning, vector-plotted, not raster scanned) version of SpaceWar running on a DCC-16, which was a Nova clone. And although I've never seen one in action, I've no doubt SpaceWar was very popular on the PDP-11/05-based GT05. ###### From: Megan Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 03:19:40 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The World : www.TheWorld.com : Since 1989 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell01.theworld.com X-Trace: pcls4.std.com 1046488780 23292 199.172.62.241 (1 Mar 2003 03:19:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@TheWorld.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 03:19:40 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!west.cox.net!cox.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!nntp.TheWorld.com!mbg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130595 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> writes: >a DCC-16, which was a Nova clone. And although I've never seen one in >action, I've no doubt SpaceWar was very popular on the PDP-11/05-based GT05. I have a friend who wrote a spacewar for the *GT40* which we also played on a GT42. I still have the code and the original control boxes we built for it (wired directly to a parallel I/O board, A DR11, if I remember correctly). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: mbg at world.std.com | | | | | "this space | (s/ at /@/) | | unavoidably left blank" | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:13:24 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.119.44 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1046495644 6178 208.244.119.44 (1 Mar 2003 05:14:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 05:14:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130646 > I have a friend who wrote a spacewar for the *GT40* which we also > played on a GT42. I still have the code and the original control > boxes we built for it (wired directly to a parallel I/O board, > A DR11, if I remember correctly). Megan, I stand corrected. (Well, actually, right now sit corrected. Standing while typing is too hard...) I confused the GT40 with the VT05. The GT40 was the PDP-11/05-based graphics machine. The VT05 was a video terminal for the PDP-8. I don't think, now, that there was a GT05, although I prepared to sit corrected on that too. Anyway, lotsa good information on the GT40 at www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ . ###### Message-ID: <3E606524.E6E27BC4@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1046497641 12.241.15.59 (Sat, 01 Mar 2003 05:47:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 05:47:21 GMT Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 05:47:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!uio.no!feed.news.nacamar.de!easynet-quince!easynet.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130741 Ross Simpson wrote: > > I've got a Time Life Book which talks about Computer Software. In this it > talks about the PDP-1 computer from the early 1960s & about one of the games > written for it called "SpaceWar", I was suprised to see that this game had > many varients (done by various hackers at MIT). > The proper name is "Spacewar!"...*not* "SpaceWar". > > Since a few people have been talking about the later PDP machines has anyone > used this particular model (or may have even programmed SpaceWar), out of > curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. The book also > talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze > being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly > used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? > Certainly, the PDP-1 was a serious machine with serious programs written for it. Spacewar! was written in PDP-1 assembly language originally. Many ports exist today...you should be able to get a Spacewar! written in C so you can run it on your computer. You can get the file "spacewar.tar.gz" at: > > For anyone who has used one, the book suggests it being some sort of > minicomputer since it was smaller than mainframes of the time, would that be > correct? > Yes, the PDP-1 was considered a minicomputer. > > One last thing. How did the games written for this machine compare with the > arcade type written (like Space Invaders in 1978)? Only reason I ask it is > because of some of varations of SpaceWar sound quite impressive. > There is an article that appeared in the early 1980's in "Creative Computing" magazine. The article was written by someone intimately connected with the Spacewar! program. The article is reconstructed atthe following web site: There is a photo of a PDP-1 set up...and photos of screens from a Spacewar! game in progress. Decide for yourself how it compares to more modern vidio games. IMHO it was pretty good for 1962. This article should tell you more than you wanted to know about Spacewar! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 01:36:15 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E606524.E6E27BC4@ev1.net> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.119.24 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1046500614 10724 208.244.119.24 (1 Mar 2003 06:36:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 06:36:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130652 > The proper name is "Spacewar!"...*not* "SpaceWar". Gee, with the PDQ Monitor we used at the MIT Electronics Research Society's PDP-7 (our beloved Bertha) - which was a modification of DEC's PDP-7 Advanced Software System - the bang character wasn't legal in a filename. Then, again, we had a KSR-35 TTY, and that could only do upper case, so to us the name was SPACEWAR. And on the PDP-1 it was loaded from an ancient and crufty Nth-generation papertape, with some unknown's smudged pencilled scribbling on it. As best I could decipher, the writing came out as S, so I'm not sure of interior caps, but there sure wasn't a bang at the end of it. ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E606524.E6E27BC4@ev1.net> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 18:45:41 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3e606562$0$12816$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.38.53 X-Trace: 1046504803 12816 198.142.38.53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!in.nntp.be!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130730 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message... > The proper name is "Spacewar!"...*not* "SpaceWar". Ah, okay Charles, Thankyou. Yes, even the book made good use of the explanation marks! > Certainly, the PDP-1 was a serious machine with serious programs written > for it. Spacewar! was written in PDP-1 assembly language originally. > Many ports exist today...you should be able to get a Spacewar! written > in C so you can run it on your computer. You can get the file > "spacewar.tar.gz" at: > > Ta :-) > There is an article that appeared in the early 1980's in > "Creative Computing" magazine. The article was written by > someone intimately connected with the Spacewar! program. > The article is reconstructed atthe following web site: > > > > There is a photo of a PDP-1 set up...and photos of screens > from a Spacewar! game in progress. Decide for yourself how > it compares to more modern vidio games. IMHO it was pretty > good for 1962. This article should tell you more than you > wanted to know about Spacewar! One of the links Geoffrey provided also had shown a screen shot of SpaceWar! I must say, to produce some high resolution graphics in 1962 is a thing of beauty. I'd say it would have taken the microcomputer years (after it came out) to produce some graphics of that nature. I'll have to check the microcomputer museum to see which microcomputer you'd have to compare it with. Ross. ###### From: TLH 858 <ß@Ç.ÑÜ> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 08:44:39 -0500 Organization: Improving. Message-ID: <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> Reply-To: The onlyone interested, yourself. References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.570 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn.!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130723 x-no-archive: yes Geoffrey G. Rochat seems to have said: >For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, running >on a PDP-1. That machine may also have been running SpaceWar at DEC's >in-house computer museum, and it was definitely running SpaceWar at the MIT >Electronics Research Society circa 1977. It certainly was running Spacewar when it was in Marlboro, and many of the members of CC341 used to head over to play a game or three when they had the chance. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Cancel-Lock: sha1:lo7o6tErbPMbRjfBfYDWpNCZQsw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 54 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 14:38:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.84.61 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1046529491 165.247.84.61 (Sat, 01 Mar 2003 06:38:11 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 06:38:11 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!easynet-quince!easynet.net!cox.net!border3.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130643 "Ross Simpson" writes: > I've got a Time Life Book which talks about Computer Software. In this it > talks about the PDP-1 computer from the early 1960s & about one of the games > written for it called "SpaceWar", I was suprised to see that this game had > many varients (done by various hackers at MIT). cambridge science center had a 2250-4 (aka 2250 with 1130 as controller). somebody in the late '60s ported spacewar to the 2250-4. the 2250 keyboard (looked much like selectric keyboard) was split in half ... with key controls for two players on the left and right half. i don't know if the person that had done the 2250-4/1130 port was involved in the pdp-1 at all (although i don't believe it was a very large community ... since just about everybody at csc had been around ctss and/or other aspects of mit computing for some period). I would sometimes bring my kids in on weekends and they would play while i worked ... they would also sometimes chase each other up and down the hall ... which would get complaints from other possible people also in on weekends. picture of 2250-4 http://www.shubs.net/1130/functional/DisplayUnit.html other 2250-4/1130 ref: http://www.forth.com/Content/History/History1c.htm http://ibm1130.org/lib misc. past refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#67 oddly portable machines http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#37 S/360 development burnout? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#66 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#24 A question for you old guys -- IBM 1130 information http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#71 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#10 5-player Spacewar? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#12 5-player Spacewar? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#13 5-player Spacewar? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#14 5-player Spacewar? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#51 Logo (was Re: 5-player Spacewar?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#8 VM: checking some myths. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#26 Help needed on conversion from VM to OS390 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#47 TSS/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#59 history of CMS http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#20 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#17 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#22 Computer Terminal Design Over the Years http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#17 PLX http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#78 Newsgroup cliques? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#0 Wanted: Weird Programming Language http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#1 Wanted: Weird Programming Language http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#72 OT: One for the historians - 360/91 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia, 20th anniv: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 17:47:07 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1046540827 22075 128.29.24.210 (1 Mar 2003 17:47:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 17:47:07 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130791 "Ross Simpson" writes: >I've got a Time Life Book which talks about Computer Software. In this it >talks about the PDP-1 computer from the early 1960s & about one of the games >written for it called "SpaceWar", I was suprised to see that this game had >many varients (done by various hackers at MIT). Using "hackers" (in the GOOD sense of the word!) and "MIT" in the same sentence is redundant. >Since a few people have been talking about the later PDP machines has anyone >used this particular model (or may have even programmed SpaceWar), out of >curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. MACRO, which was the assembler for the PDP-1. Like so many well-written programs of the day, written with lots of attention to memory usage, but still easy to work with if you could figure out what the author of a given section of code was trying to do. Except for the fundamental constants block on the first page, and the identity of the stars that were displayed by Pete Sampson's code, comments were few and far between. > The book also >talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze >being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly >used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? MIT was, of course, an academic institution, and that's why the PDP-1 was installed. I have a recollection (and if Marvin Minsky is reading this, perhaps he could confirm or refute it) that there was a sign in the PDP-1 room (second floor of Building 26) listing who could bump whom from the schedule for using the PDP-1. It went something like this: 1) Professors doing research 2) Grad students doing research 3) Grad students working on thesis 4) Undergrads working on thesis 5) Students doing classwork 6) Anyone doing personal work 7) games 8) Spacewar It's worth noting that when the first DEC drum was installed on the PDP-1, one of its 32 tracks was immediately allocated to Spacewar, and the console tape for the game shrank to a tiny bootstrap loader. >For anyone who has used one, the book suggests it being some sort of >minicomputer since it was smaller than mainframes of the time, would that be >correct? I would have to dig through my notes to be sure, but the PDP-1 was housed in a single row of cabinets perhaps ... um ... let's say maybe 12 feet long. Definitely a "minicomputer" by the comparison to the big mainframes. >One last thing. How did the games written for this machine compare with the >arcade type written (like Space Invaders in 1978)? Only reason I ask it is >because of some of varations of SpaceWar sound quite impressive. Depends on which arcarde type you want to compare it against. I recall in the early 1970s seeing Spacewar (in mostly the original concept) as a 25-cent arcade game. Joe Morris ###### From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 11:58:48 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130779 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > They did?! How the hell did I miss that? I bet you're talking > about the guys who worked those odd hours ;-). > /BAH Oh -- you must mean regular shifts with coffe-breaks and lunch hours. People who code or debug don't have them. :) Ben. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 20:25:49 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130790 bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Oh -- you must mean regular shifts with coffe-breaks and lunch hours. > People who code or debug don't have them. :) > Ben. People who can code or debug can pick and choose their hours ;P pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:38:36 -0000 Organization: Titanic Enterprises Unlimited Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1046551116.966154@saucer.planet.gong> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1046551117 27401 80.177.7.220 (1 Mar 2003 20:38:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:38:37 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Cache-Post-Path: saucer.planet.gong!unknown@voodoo.planet.gong Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130783 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:v625qdn68v6e0a@corp.supernews.com... > bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > Oh -- you must mean regular shifts with coffe-breaks and lunch hours. > > People who code or debug don't have them. :) > > Ben. > > People who can code or debug can pick and choose their hours ;P Depends for whom they work. Some places want you 24/7 and wonder why you're partially dead. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 03 09:46:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYhnSvfch9xVMZLdJVXOQhfcexuO2QZ9Y7UE8Cz5f3UDPZmfSnoKN+k X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2003 10:30:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-128 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130821 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: >bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Oh -- you must mean regular shifts with coffe-breaks and lunch hours. >> People who code or debug don't have them. :) >> Ben. > >People who can code or debug can pick and choose their hours ;P Nope. Not when they have to take a million dollar collection of hardware stand-alone. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 03 10:57:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVairUL7re63G3/VkGMYU1gX4e9X29UvZM/kn6daZ2Mv97veMc8+mXa1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2003 11:41:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-128 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130823 In article , TLH 858 <ß@Ç.ÑÜ> wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com seems to have said: > >>They did?! How the hell did I miss that? I bet you're talking >>about the guys who worked those odd hours ;-). > >Yep. 1026 from Midnight to 3 AM. Yup. Those hours. I don't know why, but I have a brick wall at 2 AM. I can get up early to start at 3 AM. I've worked second shift. But I never could cross that 2 AM line without suddenly geting cast in jello. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 00:38:50 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> <1046551116.966154@saucer.planet.gong> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130846 Rupert Pigott wrote: >> People who can code or debug can pick and choose their hours ;P > > Depends for whom they work. Some places want you 24/7 and > wonder why you're partially dead. :) > If you're good enough, you can move ;P pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 11:40:29 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 89 Message-ID: <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.37.27 X-Trace: 1046565687 27766 198.142.37.27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130858 "Joe Morris" wrote in message... > >I've got a Time Life Book which talks about Computer Software. In this it > >talks about the PDP-1 computer from the early 1960s & about one of the games > >written for it called "SpaceWar", I was suprised to see that this game had > >many varients (done by various hackers at MIT). > > Using "hackers" (in the GOOD sense of the word!) and "MIT" in the same > sentence is redundant. Oh yes. Well I don't think there were many programs written back then, where it would have been illegal to hack from other programs. The bad side of hackers today, comes from taking a copyrighted piece of code. > >Since a few people have been talking about the later PDP machines has anyone > >used this particular model (or may have even programmed SpaceWar), out of > >curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. > > MACRO, which was the assembler for the PDP-1. Like so many well-written > programs of the day, written with lots of attention to memory usage, but > still easy to work with if you could figure out what the author of a given > section of code was trying to do. Except for the fundamental constants > block on the first page, and the identity of the stars that were displayed > by Pete Sampson's code, comments were few and far between. > > > > The book also > >talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze > >being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly > >used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? > > MIT was, of course, an academic institution, and that's why the PDP-1 > was installed. I have a recollection (and if Marvin Minsky is reading > this, perhaps he could confirm or refute it) that there was a sign in > the PDP-1 room (second floor of Building 26) listing who could bump whom > from the schedule for using the PDP-1. It went something like this: > > 1) Professors doing research > 2) Grad students doing research > 3) Grad students working on thesis > 4) Undergrads working on thesis > 5) Students doing classwork > 6) Anyone doing personal work > 7) games > 8) Spacewar > > It's worth noting that when the first DEC drum was installed on the > PDP-1, one of its 32 tracks was immediately allocated to Spacewar, and > the console tape for the game shrank to a tiny bootstrap loader. > > >For anyone who has used one, the book suggests it being some sort of > >minicomputer since it was smaller than mainframes of the time, would that be > >correct? > > I would have to dig through my notes to be sure, but the PDP-1 was housed > in a single row of cabinets perhaps ... um ... let's say maybe 12 feet long. > Definitely a "minicomputer" by the comparison to the big mainframes. > > >One last thing. How did the games written for this machine compare with the > >arcade type written (like Space Invaders in 1978)? Only reason I ask it is > >because of some of varations of SpaceWar sound quite impressive. > > Depends on which arcarde type you want to compare it against. I recall > in the early 1970s seeing Spacewar (in mostly the original concept) as > a 25-cent arcade game. Well I wasn't thinking in terms of Colour graphics (Space Invaders would of had some Colour, but the resolution isn't all that high), however I was thinking in terms of the Resolution of the graphics. From the screen shots I've seen of Spacewar! it looks to be fairly detailed, unfortunately I haven't found any details about the Screen Resolution, however I would be interested to know the details of it if someone knows. I know it's monochrome, but I'm guessing from Screen Shots it's simular to 640x200 resolution (however the round screen may slightly change it). What I am interested in knowing is how long did it take, after the micros came out, to archieve a simular resolution to that of the PDP-1 (unfortunately I don't know how to do that comparison unless I had some idea of the resolution). Thanks for your details. Ross. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 22:37:41 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.119.9 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1046576299 5898 208.244.119.9 (2 Mar 2003 03:38:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 03:38:19 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130816 > Well I wasn't thinking in terms of Colour graphics (Space Invaders would of > had some Colour, but the resolution isn't all that high), however I was > thinking in terms of the Resolution of the graphics. From the screen shots > I've seen of Spacewar! it looks to be fairly detailed, unfortunately I > haven't found any details about the Screen Resolution, however I would be > interested to know the details of it if someone knows. I know it's > monochrome, but I'm guessing from Screen Shots it's simular to 640x200 > resolution (however the round screen may slightly change it). What I am > interested in knowing is how long did it take, after the micros came out, to > archieve a simular resolution to that of the PDP-1 (unfortunately I don't > know how to do that comparison unless I had some idea of the resolution). The Type 30 CRT Display used on the PDP-1 had a screen resolution of 1024x1024, which is substantial even for today. But it is a meaningless comparison because the very nature of display technology has changed. In the Type 30 the CPU drove two 10-bit DACs, which then drove the vertical and horizontal deflection circuitry of the display. The Type 30 was a point-plotting display that the CPU had to continually refresh, and the long persistence of the phosphors in the CRT itself made for a non-flickering image. It was this need to continually re-draw the screen fast enough with programmed I/O that required all the clever programming. The Type 340 Graphics Processor on the PDP-7 I knew was a re-packaged Type 30 CRT Display with a co-processor, based on PDP-8 technology, that used data break transfers (today known as DMA) from the PDP-7's. The 340 could automatically refresh the screen in a point-plotting mode, or it could be programmed to automatically draw lines between absolute or relative endpoints. I believe the display processor in the later GT40 worked much the same way. Note that none of these machines used raster scanning, which is what you find on PCs (and most everything else) today, an extension of basic television technology. Simplified, in a raster-scanned system a chunk of memory is used as a field of bits describing each pixel on the screen, and as the raster-scanning circuitry in the display paints the screen one pixel at a time, usually left-to-right and top-to-bottom, circuitry reads each pixel's descriptor from memory and uses the information to display the pixel's intensity and hue. In point plotting technology the CPU would position the CRT's electron beam at an X-Y location on the screen and place a point there, then position the electron beam at another location and place a point there, etc. The location of subsequent points need not bear any relationship to each other - the writing was random access - except that the closer one could arrange one's subsequent points the faster the display's DACs could get the beam there. In vector plotting technology one would specify the endpoints of each line segment, and circuitry in the display would write to the DACs and move the CRT beam for you. But, again, writing to the screen was random access. One further point: In a raster scanned display once you turn on a pixel in memory it tends to stay on, refreshed every time the circuitry re-paints the screen. In the older technologies, once the electron beam leaves a spot the spot begins to fade, so unless you re-write the same set of points over and over the image fades. Why did technology start with one thing and move to another? Well, the basic PDP-1 had all of 4KW of core memory, each word being 18 bits. A 1024x1024 display, had it been raster-scanned with a single bit depth pixel plane, would have required a megabit of core memory - far more than the processor could handle, let alone the user pay for. Precision DACs and CRT drive circuitry was expensive, but at the time nowhere near that of all that core. So the early display designers based their technology on the idea of making a computer-controlled two-axis oscilloscope, modifying that to being a smart oscilloscope when the 340 and later GT40 came out. But starting in the late '70s semiconductor memories became cheap and plentiful, so it became possible to have large amounts of memory dedicated to displays. This allowed display designers to base their designs around the idea of televisions, with low-cost raster-scanned displays. Once memory became cheap enough, a display technology that could borrow ideas from high-volume, low-cost television technology proved cheaper. You can find details on the Type 30 CRT Display for the PDP-1 on Al Kossow's site, in the PDP-1 Handbook. Details on the PDP-7's 340 Graphics Processor, specifically, are not available (And if anyone has the information, please get it to Al!), but the 339 Graphics Processor used on the PDP-9, a re-packaged PDP-7, are available on Al's site in the PDP-9 folder. I am at a loss to find a similar reference to raster-scanning; I used to have an excellent book in my well-ordered library, a pamphlet published by a company in Westford, MA, that made raster-scanned systems, but since I can't remember the name of the company I appear to have lost the information in alphabetical order. You might try Don Lancaster's "The TV Typewriter" book. For television technology in general, there is no better place to start than Grob's "Basic Television." ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 15:18:24 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 109 Message-ID: <3e618649$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.45.199 X-Trace: 1046578763 11663 198.142.45.199 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!out.nntp.be!propagator-sanjose!news-in-sanjose!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130857 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote in message... > The Type 30 CRT Display used on the PDP-1 had a screen resolution of > 1024x1024, which is substantial even for today. But it is a meaningless > comparison because the very nature of display technology has changed. In > the Type 30 the CPU drove two 10-bit DACs, which then drove the vertical and > horizontal deflection circuitry of the display. The Type 30 was a > point-plotting display that the CPU had to continually refresh, and the long > persistence of the phosphors in the CRT itself made for a non-flickering > image. It was this need to continually re-draw the screen fast enough with > programmed I/O that required all the clever programming. Ah yes I see. Well the closest thing I come to observe something like that was an interlace demo which continuously had to update the screen with tiny characters. This technique was better on a green screen because the pixels produced onto the output contiously dimmed out slower than what a colour screen would, hence more readable. If this technique produced a simular effect on a Type 30 CRT Display (with the pixels) to the green screen then the result should be just as neat. But yeah, I see your point about the clever programming, in order to generate the output quick enough is the key. When you'd perhaps consider 20 years down the track when the CGA card came out with the IBM PC, which had blinking problems when moving the cursor a line down at the bottom of the screen, I'd consider that more annoying than constantly refreshing the screen, however as you said it would be in the programming to produce the best possible effect. > The Type 340 Graphics Processor on the PDP-7 I knew was a re-packaged Type > 30 CRT Display with a co-processor, based on PDP-8 technology, that used > data break transfers (today known as DMA) from the PDP-7's. The 340 could > automatically refresh the screen in a point-plotting mode, or it could be > programmed to automatically draw lines between absolute or relative > endpoints. I believe the display processor in the later GT40 worked much > the same way. Well that sounds better, however this is talking about the minicomputers. > Note that none of these machines used raster scanning, which is what you > find on PCs (and most everything else) today, an extension of basic > television technology. Simplified, in a raster-scanned system a chunk of > memory is used as a field of bits describing each pixel on the screen, and > as the raster-scanning circuitry in the display paints the screen one pixel > at a time, usually left-to-right and top-to-bottom, circuitry reads each > pixel's descriptor from memory and uses the information to display the > pixel's intensity and hue. In point plotting technology the CPU would > position the CRT's electron beam at an X-Y location on the screen and place > a point there, then position the electron beam at another location and place > a point there, etc. The location of subsequent points need not bear any > relationship to each other - the writing was random access - except that the > closer one could arrange one's subsequent points the faster the display's > DACs could get the beam there. In vector plotting technology one would > specify the endpoints of each line segment, and circuitry in the display > would write to the DACs and move the CRT beam for you. But, again, writing > to the screen was random access. One further point: In a raster scanned > display once you turn on a pixel in memory it tends to stay on, refreshed > every time the circuitry re-paints the screen. In the older technologies, > once the electron beam leaves a spot the spot begins to fade, so unless you > re-write the same set of points over and over the image fades. Yes I understand that. Even my old 8bit computer has some demos which produce rasters. It was flashy enough then (some years back now), but I wouldn't expect things like that on a 40 y.o minicomputer. > Why did technology start with one thing and move to another? Well, the > basic PDP-1 had all of 4KW of core memory, each word being 18 bits. A > 1024x1024 display, had it been raster-scanned with a single bit depth pixel > plane, would have required a megabit of core memory - far more than the > processor could handle, let alone the user pay for. Precision DACs and CRT > drive circuitry was expensive, but at the time nowhere near that of all that > core. So the early display designers based their technology on the idea of > making a computer-controlled two-axis oscilloscope, modifying that to being > a smart oscilloscope when the 340 and later GT40 came out. But starting in > the late '70s semiconductor memories became cheap and plentiful, so it > became possible to have large amounts of memory dedicated to displays. This > allowed display designers to base their designs around the idea of > televisions, with low-cost raster-scanned displays. Once memory became > cheap enough, a display technology that could borrow ideas from high-volume, > low-cost television technology proved cheaper. Yeah well that's true too. My book on computer graphics explains how the more detailed the image is the larger it becomes. For the PDP-1 the only advantage with the 1024x1024 resolution would be it gives a large playing grid for games like Spacewar!. Obviously to produce a 1024x1024 image on one of those would be mind boggling! Ross. ###### Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 08:34:08 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Message-ID: <20030302083408.78507cb3.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 02 Mar 2003 07:51:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p2325.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: 1046591491 news.wanadoo.nl 23901 194.134.139.21:1074 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130834 On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 11:40:29 +1100 "Ross Simpson" wrote: RS> Well I wasn't thinking in terms of Colour graphics (Space Invaders RS> would of had some Colour, but the resolution isn't all that high), ROTFL. Space Invaders was monochrome, but there was a coloured gel fixed to the screen to make the bottom of the screen a different colour to the top. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3E61F90A.24885C1C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> <1046551116.966154@saucer.planet.gong> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1046601040 12.241.15.59 (Sun, 02 Mar 2003 10:30:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 10:30:40 GMT Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 10:30:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130862 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message > news:v625qdn68v6e0a@corp.supernews.com... > > bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > > Oh -- you must mean regular shifts with coffe-breaks and lunch hours. > > > People who code or debug don't have them. :) > > > Ben. > > > > People who can code or debug can pick and choose their hours ;P > > Depends for whom they work. Some places want you 24/7 and > wonder why you're partially dead. :) > As it said once in Dilbert (the comic strip): "Having a personal life is like stealing from the company." -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: TLH 858 <ß@Ç.ÑÜ> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 05:39:58 -0500 Organization: Improving. Message-ID: Reply-To: The onlyone interested, yourself. References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.570 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!Barn.!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130867 jmfbahciv@aol.com seems to have said: >They did?! How the hell did I miss that? I bet you're talking >about the guys who worked those odd hours ;-). Yep. 1026 from Midnight to 3 AM. -- "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E606524.E6E27BC4@ev1.net> <3e606562$0$12816$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Sender: bdc@world.std.com Organization: HappyNet Bungalow X-No-Ahbou: yes X-No-Archive: Yes X-Face: "CVLf:[ Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.126.253.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1046622605 24.126.253.169 (Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:30:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:30:05 GMT Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:30:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130810 In article <3e606562$0$12816$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Ross Simpson wrote: > One of the links Geoffrey provided also had shown a screen shot of SpaceWar! > > I must say, to produce some high resolution graphics in 1962 is a thing of > beauty. I'd say it would have taken the microcomputer years (after it came > out) to produce some graphics of that nature. I'll have to check the > microcomputer museum to see which microcomputer you'd have to compare it > with. Given that it was a vector based system, you could say that the display's resolution was limited by the narrowness of the electron beam driving it. The only home microcomputer based gaming system I'm aware of with a vector display was GCE's 6809 based Vectrex console. -brian. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 19:12:50 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> <1046551116.966154@saucer.planet.gong> <3E61F90A.24885C1C@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130842 Charles Richmond wrote: >> >> Depends for whom they work. Some places want you 24/7 and >> wonder why you're partially dead. :) >> > As it said once in Dilbert (the comic strip): > > "Having a personal life is like stealing from the company." > I'm reminded of the lovely line from the Clive James/Pete Atkin song "Session Man's Blues": "They want me to work on the afternoon after I'm dead". pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Message-ID: <3E6259D4.C92A20D9@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E606524.E6E27BC4@ev1.net> <3e606562$0$12816$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:32:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.52 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1046637176 12.90.173.52 (Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:32:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 20:32:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130876 Brian 'Jarai' Chase wrote: > Ross Simpson wrote: > > > One of the links Geoffrey provided also had shown a screen shot > > of SpaceWar! > > > > I must say, to produce some high resolution graphics in 1962 is > > a thing of beauty. I'd say it would have taken the microcomputer > > years (after it came out) to produce some graphics of that > > nature. I'll have to check the microcomputer museum to see which > > microcomputer you'd have to compare it with. > > Given that it was a vector based system, you could say that the > display's resolution was limited by the narrowness of the electron > beam driving it. The only home microcomputer based gaming system > I'm aware of with a vector display was GCE's 6809 based Vectrex > console. The display itself wasn't that hard in those days. You needed a D/A for the x, and another for the y coordinate. 1k resolutions wasn't too hard, 4k was harder, especially if you maintained monotonicity. We did this sort of thing all the time for nuclear spectrum displays. You had too have an intensity control to blank during spot motion, and all sorts of things depended on the dynamics. 10 uSec per point displayed was good performance. We used Tek XY scopes in some applications. IIRC they cost about $500 each. Of course that is not a dynamic graphic, nor a line drawer. But it can be the end point for a Bresenham algorithm. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:00:15 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-200.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130879 In article , "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: > For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, running > on a PDP-1. Yeah, it looked like that, didn't it. Now, think about it a little. How much power does a PDP-1 use? How many BTUs? How often would the hardware have broken down if they'd had it running all the time, and what would the cost of all that been? Since when did that museam have that kind of budget? They didn't actually run the PDP-1 itself except on rare occasions, as I understand it. What was actually happening was that a Mac was driving that display and those controllers at the Museam. -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:04:21 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-352.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130878 In article <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, "Ross Simpson" wrote: > Well I wasn't thinking in terms of Colour graphics (Space Invaders would of > had some Colour, but the resolution isn't all that high), Space Invaders was black&white with a couple of plastic color strips layed on top of the monitor. -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### From: "philicorda" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 00:06:41 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.107.1.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net 1046653333 213.107.1.202 (Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:02:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:02:13 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130920 > One last thing. How did the games written for this machine compare with the > arcade type written (like Space Invaders in 1978)? Only reason I ask it is > because of some of varations of SpaceWar sound quite impressive. MESS will emulate a DEC PDP-1 and run spacewar. (It won't run anything else :) Download it and try it yourself! -- Britain set up Iraq in 1922. The area had been three separate provinces-Basra, Baghdad and Mosul-which were part of the Ottoman Empire run from Turkey. Britain's rulers wanted the territory after oil reserves were discovered there in the late 19th century. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:43:47 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.119.63 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1046652382 4881 208.244.119.63 (3 Mar 2003 00:46:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 00:46:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130891 > > For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, running > > on a PDP-1. > > Yeah, it looked like that, didn't it. > > Now, think about it a little. How much power does a PDP-1 use? How > many BTUs? How often would the hardware have broken down if they'd had > it running all the time, and what would the cost of all that been? > Since when did that museam have that kind of budget? > > They didn't actually run the PDP-1 itself except on rare occasions, as I > understand it. What was actually happening was that a Mac was driving > that display and those controllers at the Museam. Baloney. It ran. I will grant you that they didn't run it often, but I recall one Thanksgiving my father was in the Boston area visiting me, and we went to the Computer Museum. The PDP-1 was there, shut down. I found a youngling docent in the area and asked him if we could see the thing operate, and he explained, as you just did, that it only ran on special occasions. I explained to him that I ran that darned machine for two years, ergo my being there made it a special occasion. Seeing the look in my eye he didn't feel like arguing, so he turned the machine on and attempted to boot Spacewar on it. No go; the CPU booted, but no spaceships or sparkly star on the Type 30 display. He tried again, same thing. After the third failure I stepped over the velvet rope and started opening up skins and wiggling connectors. The docent panicked, and ran off looking for Security. By the time he got back, accompanied by a guard, the PDP-1 was booted and my father and I were playing Spacewar on the accumulator switches. What had happened was that the power connection feeding AC to the CRT's high-voltage supply had come loose - again! - and once I got it mated up everything was fine. The docent stood there with his mouth wide open, and I said to him, "Kid, I told ya'. I *ran* this machine for two years. I know every damned loose connection in it." The guard threw back his head and laughed, and the docent wandered away shaking his head. I guess after awhile the staff at the Boston Computer Museum got used to see all kinds of serious gnurds wander through... Trust me, Howard, whatever other mickey mouse(tm) things may have been cobbled together behind the scenes and the Boston Computer Museum, the Type 30 display on the PDP-1 was not one of them. Perhaps your being there just wasn't a special enough occasion for them. ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 21:25:14 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-727.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130908 In article , "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: > Baloney. It ran. I didn't say it didn't. I said that it was rare that they actually ran it. Usually it was a Mac running an emulation. I saw it "running" that way on multiple occasions. > I will grant you that they didn't run it often, but I recall one > Thanksgiving my father was in the Boston area visiting me, and we went to > the Computer Museum. The PDP-1 was there, shut down. I found a youngling > docent in the area and asked him if we could see the thing operate, and he > explained, as you just did, that it only ran on special occasions. I > explained to him that I ran that darned machine for two years, ergo my being > there made it a special occasion. Seeing the look in my eye he didn't feel > like arguing, so he turned the machine on and attempted to boot Spacewar on > it. No go; the CPU booted, but no spaceships or sparkly star on the Type 30 > display. He tried again, same thing. After the third failure I stepped > over the velvet rope and started opening up skins and wiggling connectors. > The docent panicked, and ran off looking for Security. By the time he got > back, accompanied by a guard, the PDP-1 was booted and my father and I were > playing Spacewar on the accumulator switches. What had happened was that > the power connection feeding AC to the CRT's high-voltage supply had come > loose - again! - and once I got it mated up everything was fine. The docent > stood there with his mouth wide open, and I said to him, "Kid, I told ya'. > I *ran* this machine for two years. I know every damned loose connection in > it." The guard threw back his head and laughed, and the docent wandered > away shaking his head. I guess after awhile the staff at the Boston > Computer Museum got used to see all kinds of serious gnurds wander > through... Good story, yeah. Okay, what's a "docent", and what's a "gnurds"? > Trust me, Howard, whatever other mickey mouse(tm) things may have been > cobbled together behind the scenes and the Boston Computer Museum, the Type > 30 display on the PDP-1 was not one of them. Perhaps your being there just > wasn't a special enough occasion for them. I wasn't suggesting that my attendance -was- important enough for them to run it. I didn't seriously consider asking them to power it up. Explain the lack of any noise from the PDP-1 when I played Spacewar "on" it, and the little Mac "wait" watch cursor which popped up sometimes between games, then. -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 23:05:40 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.119.63 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1046664371 27501 208.244.119.63 (3 Mar 2003 04:06:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 04:06:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130892 > > Baloney. It ran. > > I didn't say it didn't. I said that it was rare that they actually ran > it. Usually it was a Mac running an emulation. I saw it "running" that > way on multiple occasions. > > > Good story, yeah. It's even true. > Okay, what's a "docent", and what's a "gnurds"? "Docent" can be found in any decent English language dictionary. For "gnurds" do a Google search for "Jargon File." Alternate spellings (not my preference) are nurds and nerds. > > Trust me, Howard, whatever other mickey mouse(tm) things may have been > > cobbled together behind the scenes and the Boston Computer Museum, the Type > > 30 display on the PDP-1 was not one of them. Perhaps your being there just > > wasn't a special enough occasion for them. > > I wasn't suggesting that my attendance -was- important enough for them > to run it. I didn't seriously consider asking them to power it up. > > Explain the lack of any noise from the PDP-1 when I played Spacewar "on" > it, and the little Mac "wait" watch cursor which popped up sometimes > between games, then. I dunno what you thought you were playing Spacewar on, or what you might have been told you were playing Spacewar on, but it sure wasn't a PDP-1 with a Type 30 graphics display. Your description strongly hints it was a standard Mac raster-scanned display, and there's no way a Type 30 graphics display could handle that. (See my previous threadlet regarding raster vs. point-plotting vs. vector displays.) Take a look at the PDP-1 Handbook on Al Kossow's site (http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp1/) and look for the Type 30 display toward the end. My guess is that that's not what you were in front of at the Boston COmputer Museum when you played Spacewar, although the PDP-1 connected to a Type 30 were, in fact, on display for awhile. Through one Thanksgiving anyway... I do have an old Mac Classic in my retrocomputer collection that runs a decent version of Spacewar, and my teenaged son whups me at it with some frequency. Perhaps that is what they had you playing at the Boston Computer Museum, as porting Spacewar to other computers has been a standard hack for several generations of programmers. But if the Boston Computer Museum led you to believe you were actually on the PDP-1 when you were playing Spacewar, rather than on a more modern machine that happened to be sitting close to the PDP-1 and its writeup on Spacewar, then shame on 'em! ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:27:44 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3e62e80c$0$11659$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.36.72 X-Trace: 1046669325 11659 198.142.36.72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!seven.news.surf.net!surfnet.nl!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130912 "Howard S Shubs" wrote in message... > > Well I wasn't thinking in terms of Colour graphics (Space Invaders would of > > had some Colour, but the resolution isn't all that high), > > Space Invaders was black&white with a couple of plastic color strips > layed on top of the monitor. Oh okay. I've been playing the Atari VCS version too much. Ross. ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:30:46 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.36.72 X-Trace: 1046669504 11663 198.142.36.72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!easynet-quince!easynet.net!out.nntp.be!propagator2-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!ken-transit.news.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130913 "philicorda" wrote in message... > MESS will emulate a DEC PDP-1 and run spacewar. (It won't run anything else > :) > Download it and try it yourself! Ah, maybe when it can run a few of the other PDP-1 programs! :-) Still Geoffrey brought up a very good point about emulating those machines & that is you can't emulate the way the original screen operated. Ross. ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 00:41:32 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-893.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!borium.box.nl!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!209.50.230.160.MISMATCH!news.astraweb.com!news-small.astraweb.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!propagator-maxim!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130910 In article , "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: > It's even true. Didn't mean to suggest I thought otherwise, sir! > "Docent" can be found in any decent English language dictionary. For > "gnurds" do a Google search for "Jargon File." Alternate spellings (not my > preference) are nurds and nerds. Geez, make me lean over for my hardcopy dictionary. mmm... okay, got it. I'll leave "gnurds" alone for now 'cause I'm just not in the mood. > I dunno what you thought you were playing Spacewar on, or what you might > have been told you were playing Spacewar on, but it sure wasn't a PDP-1 with > a Type 30 graphics display. Your description strongly hints it was a > standard Mac raster-scanned display, and there's no way a Type 30 graphics > display could handle that. Yes, that's what I was saying. It was round, and fairly large, but it wasn't actually running on the PDP-1 it was purportedly attached to. I don't know what happened when they actually wanted to use it with the PDP-1. As I recall, the PDP-1 was in a kind of a corner. This display was out at the end of a low cabinet perpendicular to one of the walls. It's been a few years, though. Kinda "no kidding", y'know? Next time I'm out at Mountain View, I'll see if I can check it out. No, that's pointless, as I'm not likely to get out there again any time soon. I'll just contact the Museam directly and ask 'em what the story is with the setup as it was in Boston, and as it is now.... sent. I'll update when I have more info. I'm not disputing what you're saying, sir. I'm just trying to iron out the difference between what I saw and what you're telling me was there. > I do have an old Mac Classic in my retrocomputer collection that runs a > decent version of Spacewar, and my teenaged son whups me at it with some > frequency. Perhaps that is what they had you playing at the Boston Computer > Museum, as porting Spacewar to other computers has been a standard hack for > several generations of programmers. But if the Boston Computer Museum led > you to believe you were actually on the PDP-1 when you were playing > Spacewar, rather than on a more modern machine that happened to be sitting > close to the PDP-1 and its writeup on Spacewar, then shame on 'em! Yes. That's effectively my take on it. :-) -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### Message-ID: <3E6335A6.B4AA8B9E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> <1046551116.966154@saucer.planet.gong> <3E61F90A.24885C1C@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1046682092 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:01:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:01:32 GMT Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:01:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130915 Pete Fenelon wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > >> > >> Depends for whom they work. Some places want you 24/7 and > >> wonder why you're partially dead. :) > >> > > As it said once in Dilbert (the comic strip): > > > > "Having a personal life is like stealing from the company." > > > > I'm reminded of the lovely line from the Clive James/Pete Atkin song > "Session Man's Blues": "They want me to work on the afternoon after I'm > dead". > Haven't you ever seen the fake memo that says: "Death is *no* excuse for *not* coming into work, unless you are the one who died. Then you have to give two weeks notice." -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Mon, 03 Mar 03 12:09:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbnb1ST8EDos8mdNPkzKGyEeiuy5NaizqePK075mKESr2njIsY4HHTX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2003 12:53:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-244 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130927 In article , "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: >> > For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, >running >> > on a PDP-1. >> >> Yeah, it looked like that, didn't it. >> >> Now, think about it a little. How much power does a PDP-1 use? How >> many BTUs? How often would the hardware have broken down if they'd had >> it running all the time, and what would the cost of all that been? >> Since when did that museam have that kind of budget? >> >> They didn't actually run the PDP-1 itself except on rare occasions, as I >> understand it. What was actually happening was that a Mac was driving >> that display and those controllers at the Museam. > >Baloney. It ran. Beautiful story. > >I will grant you that they didn't run it often, but I recall one >Thanksgiving my father was in the Boston area visiting me, and we went to >the Computer Museum. The PDP-1 was there, shut down. I found a youngling >docent in the area and asked him if we could see the thing operate, and he >explained, as you just did, that it only ran on special occasions. I >explained to him that I ran that darned machine for two years, ergo my being >there made it a special occasion. Seeing the look in my eye he didn't feel >like arguing, so he turned the machine on and attempted to boot Spacewar on >it. No go; the CPU booted, but no spaceships or sparkly star on the Type 30 >display. He tried again, same thing. After the third failure I stepped >over the velvet rope and started opening up skins and wiggling connectors. >The docent panicked, and ran off looking for Security. By the time he got >back, accompanied by a guard, the PDP-1 was booted and my father and I were >playing Spacewar on the accumulator switches. What had happened was that >the power connection feeding AC to the CRT's high-voltage supply had come >loose - again! - and once I got it mated up everything was fine. The docent >stood there with his mouth wide open, and I said to him, "Kid, I told ya'. >I *ran* this machine for two years. I know every damned loose connection in >it." The guard threw back his head and laughed, and the docent wandered >away shaking his head. I guess after awhile the staff at the Boston >Computer Museum got used to see all kinds of serious gnurds wander >through... > >Trust me, Howard, whatever other mickey mouse(tm) things may have been >cobbled together behind the scenes and the Boston Computer Museum, the Type >30 display on the PDP-1 was not one of them. Perhaps your being there just >wasn't a special enough occasion for them. We had good guards. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3E637E10.422F838E@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <74e16vsrcug3i6234g5io5f09shgjaf58m@4ax.com> <3E6102E8.6030401@jetnet.ab.ca> <1046551116.966154@saucer.planet.gong> <3E61F90A.24885C1C@ev1.net> <3E6335A6.B4AA8B9E@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:14:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.123.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1046708076 168.191.123.160 (Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:14:36 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 08:14:36 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130925 Charles Richmond wrote: > Haven't you ever seen the fake memo that says: "Death is *no* > excuse for *not* coming into work, unless you are the one who > died. Then you have to give two weeks notice." This, of course, brings to mind the one which says something like: It has come to the attention of management that people dying on the job are failing to fall down. This makes is difficult to tell the difference between them and the otherwise normal movement of the staff. In the future, will all employees dying on the job please fall down. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3e640726$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 3 Mar 2003 17:53:42 -0800 X-Trace: 3 Mar 2003 17:53:42 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131100 >>> > For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, >>> > running on a PDP-1. It's at Moffett now. It's hoped to be on display eventually in Mtn. View. We had Slug Russell give a talk last year about it. >>> Now, think about it a little. How much power does a PDP-1 use? Oh, I can find out how much the configuration runs. Not much compared to other machines. >>> How many BTUs? How often would the hardware have broken down if they'd had >>> it running all the time, and what would the cost of all that been? Boy you sound like a humanist historian. Look but don't touch. >>> Since when did that museam have that kind of budget? That's the difference between engineers and historians. Never yield the hand on imperative. "It is important for a Museum to have things which run." --John PIerce ###### From: "philicorda" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 02:24:38 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.107.1.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net 1046748012 213.107.1.77 (Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:20:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:20:12 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!rip!news.webusenet.com!cox.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130977 "Ross Simpson" wrote in message news:3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > "philicorda" wrote in message... > > > MESS will emulate a DEC PDP-1 and run spacewar. (It won't run anything > else > > :) > > Download it and try it yourself! > > Ah, maybe when it can run a few of the other PDP-1 programs! :-) > > Still Geoffrey brought up a very good point about emulating those machines & > that is you can't emulate the way the original screen operated. Aye. The mame vector driver does a decent job with open GL and a high res screen. You can mess around with intensity, flicker, beam width and transucency parameters to get it looking pretty authentic. I think it emulates phosphor decay as well. It supports the cabinet space wars, but not the original pdp version. -- Britain set up Iraq in 1922. The area had been three separate provinces-Basra, Baghdad and Mosul-which were part of the Ottoman Empire run from Turkey. Britain's rulers wanted the territory after oil reserves were discovered there in the late 19th century. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:00:18 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 110 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e640726$1@news.ucsc.edu> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.119.54 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1046750445 17906 208.244.119.54 (4 Mar 2003 04:00:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 04:00:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131022 Eugene Miya wrote in message news:3e640726$1@news.ucsc.edu... > >>> > For years the Boston Computer Museum had SpaceWar on public display, > >>> > running on a PDP-1. > > It's at Moffett now. It's hoped to be on display eventually in Mtn. View. > > We had Slug Russell give a talk last year about it. I don't want you to think I'm too pushy or anything (), but I *do* have a more-than-just-a-little proprietary feeling toward that PDP-1. Circa 1976, the MIT Electronics Research Society, an anarchical group of mostly Course 6 (that's Electrical Engineering to the lay world) students hold up in room 20B119 of the lost-and-lamented Building 20, grabbed the PDP-1 from MIT's Surplus Property Office, where is sat after having been decommissioned from Building 26. We grabbed it to keep Bertha, our beloved PDP-7, company. What we got was the 6-rack system and a huge MIT home-brew four-port core memory rack. The four ports were intended to be connected to the PDP-1, to a PDP-7 for I/O support, one port was spare, and the fourth port was to be tied to a massive RAMDAC fixed-head drum, IIRC some 3' in diameter and about 6' long. We declined to get the drum because we realized it had spun at 3600 RPM on the same bearings since circa 1963 without external lubrication, and we didn't want to find out what would happen if the bearings seized. (After all, Building 20 was a "temporary" barracks thrown up to house the Rad Labs during WWII, and the interior walls were only Masonite. Not much defense against shrapnel and an awful lot of angular momentum.) We just used the PDP-1 port on the memory, and our mass storage was the array of Microtape (as DECtape was originally called) on the PDP-1. (Microtape drives, BTW, allowed one to control the feed and takeup drive motors of each of the drives individually, and one could do all sorts of interesting, if useless, things by looping a single tape through and around the heads and idled tape spools of several drives, powering just the motors at the ends.) We had all sorts of glorious plans to tie in the PDP-7 and run a multi-processor Spacewar (the -1 had a Type 30 display, the -7 had a 340 display processor), but we never got around to it. But we did get the PDP-5 we acquired at about the same time to run. The four-port memory rack was a mass of wire wrap, and off one wire wrap pin was a length of hookup wire, curled into a helix, with a toe-tag tied on the end that said "DO NOT REMOVE!" For once we actually followed instructions, and left the thing on there. We figured that it might have been one of those "Do Not Remove Under Penalty Of Law" things that you see sewn into mattresses or something. (Hey, this was back in the days of Watergate and J. Edgar. *Anything* was possible, and a good supply of paranoia was a healthy thing to have, particularly if you were a long-haired college student. We realized it was best to never meddle unnecessarily in the affairs of dragons, for we were crunchy and good with ketchup.) We did some investigating, and discovered the wire had a definite purpose. It seems that the memory, designed by a cabal of grad students, used a 4-state asynchronous arbiter, and it was a devil to debug; the thing kept going metastable. Until one day, when somebody noticed that if a 'scope probe were clipped onto this point the metastability would go away. Apparently the 'scope probe added just enough loading to unbalance the too-well-balanced arbiter. But since probes for Tek 535 'scopes were expensive, somebody had the bright idea of making a 'scope probe emulator out of a piece of hookup wire, and that did the trick. The 6-rack system we got had been under the auspices of Prof. Jack Dennis, and to him this was a research machine. So the thing had been hacked to the point were is had in it everything from the original PNP germanium System Modules, featuring Diode-Capacitor-Diode (DCD) logic, to Schottky TTL. The original PDP-1 front panel still operated, but other than providing a PTR: to boot from was there mainly for nostalgia. Opening the door to the first rack behind the original front panel revealed the "real" front panel, which was a full 6' rack worth of switches, dials and indicators, both incandescent and LEDs. Talk about blinkenlights, it was GORGEOUS. At the bottom of that were, IIRC, some four mil-spec circular connectors that trailed off on long, thick cables to what looked like button boxes. These were auxiliary front panels. It seems that Jack had hacked this thing so that it behaved like at least five virtual computers, and these were front panels for subsidiary virtual machines. It was the most bizarre amalgamation of digital circuitry and weird software I've ever seen in my entire life, and that includes the time I wrote banking code for Citibank in assembler on IBM Series/1s. That being said, I have a bit of a bone to pick with The Computer Museum. (I love the irony of that name. As though there's only one!) The PDP-1 as we got it was not what you might call "well documented." When MITERS traded the thing back to DEC for rights to pick through DEC's salvage bin (Hey, we were young! What did we know? But we did manage to scrounge enough parts to build the fourth most powerful computing center on campus, rivaling that of the Civil/Mechanical Engineering Joint Computer Facility. Which really pissed them off, 'cause they had to *pay* for their stuff...), DEC unhacked the thing back to nearly pristine state, which is how it was presented at the Boston Computer Museum. And I know the machine was running there. But the machine is not running, nor is it runnable, presently. And that should not be. It was in fine shape when it moved out there. Indeed, when MITERS acquired the massively-hacked, undocumented machine as a very large collection of pieces, over the course of a couple of weeks a fellow named David Feldsenthal, a perennial Freshman who was the only person I know to flunk out of MIT more times than I did, put the thing back together largely on his own. Now, I grant you Dave was a genius. (And Dave, if you're reading this, you're welcome. Get in touch, guy. It's been awhile.) And I grant you that the circuitry was no doubt rather "forgiving" of Dave's ministrations, but still and all he pulled it off with aplomb. So how come you guys ain't got the thing up and running Spacewar? You've only had the thing for years! If you need the dox for reference, they're all up on Al Kossow's website. That's a heckovalot more help than Dave had. Geoffrey G. Rochat Vice President, Rhode Island Computer Museum (www.osfn.org/ricm) Member, RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island (www.osfn.org/rcs) ###### From: "philicorda" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 04:28:18 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.107.1.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net 1046755430 213.107.1.77 (Tue, 04 Mar 2003 05:23:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 05:23:50 GMT Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131097 > Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running Spacewars!? Well, you can shoot things. It's more fun than running LISP. :) It would be nice to emulate it more fully, as you say, but doing the tape punch/reader, mag tape, control panel etc is a bit tricky. -- Britain set up Iraq in 1922. The area had been three separate provinces-Basra, Baghdad and Mosul-which were part of the Ottoman Empire run from Turkey. Britain's rulers wanted the territory after oil reserves were discovered there in the late 19th century. ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:34:31 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.38.215 X-Trace: 1046752533 11660 198.142.38.215 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!peernews-us.colt.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131085 "philicorda" wrote in message... > > Still Geoffrey brought up a very good point about emulating those machines > > & that is you can't emulate the way the original screen operated. > Aye. > The mame vector driver does a decent job with open GL and a high res screen. > You can mess around with intensity, flicker, beam width and transucency > parameters to get it looking pretty authentic. I think it emulates phosphor > decay as well. > It supports the cabinet space wars, but not the original pdp version. Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running Spacewars!? Perhaps when it can run a few other programs I'll take a look. Surely the writers of this emulator have written this emulator to only play Spacewars! Ross. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e640726$1@news.ucsc.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3e644b22$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 3 Mar 2003 22:43:46 -0800 X-Trace: 3 Mar 2003 22:43:46 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:130962 In article , Geoffrey G. Rochat <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: >I don't want you to think I'm too pushy or anything (), None taken. >but I *do* have a more-than-just-a-little proprietary feeling toward that >PDP-1. .... >So how come you guys ain't got the thing up and running Spacewar? You've >only had the thing for years! If you need the dox for reference, they're >all up on Al Kossow's website. That's a heckovalot more help than Dave had. Several reasons. 1) It's not yet in its permanent home. Right now, this is most important. 2) Priorities 1, Whereas the Museum got an IBM 1620 running again, there are factions between preservation vs. sample function. We have these debates over other significant artifacts: Xerox Altos, the Enigma machine, etc. The 1620 happened because it had a serious, fanatic group of IBMers. How often it runs is pretty infrequent. 3) Priorities 2, take the same list, Alto, Enigma, and internally prioritize that list. ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 03:48:11 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e640726$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-046.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131080 In article <3e640726$1@news.ucsc.edu>, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: > >>> How many BTUs? How often would the hardware have broken down if they'd > >>> had > >>> it running all the time, and what would the cost of all that been? > > Boy you sound like a humanist historian. > Look but don't touch. Not my intention. Read what I said, rather than what you're implying. -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 20:33:45 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3e647337$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.44.150 X-Trace: 1046770489 11663 198.142.44.150 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!24.215.0.32.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131079 "philicorda" wrote in message... > > Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running Spacewars!? > Well, you can shoot things. It's more fun than running LISP. :) Careful, the creator of LISP maybe reading this. Naturally, I haven't used LISP, so cannot base an opinion on it. > It would be nice to emulate it more fully, as you say, but doing the tape > punch/reader, mag tape, control panel etc is a bit tricky. Well it didn't stop someone writing an EDSAC emulator. That's older again, so I guess the same sort of readers are used to load in a program? I'm not particular sceptical about how accurate the emulation is in terms of readers or hardware accessories (as long as some sort of emulation can be done of it). The Screen seems to be more important (particularly if it can be done). The programs could just be a file on the system. But it's a bit disappointing that someone has written a PDP-1 emulator which doesn't support all the software written for the original machine. Hopefully, they'll make sure some improvements are made for it. Ross. From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 20:33:45 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3e647337$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.44.150 X-Trace: 1046770489 11663 198.142.44.150 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!24.215.0.32.MISMATCH!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131079 "philicorda" wrote in message... > > Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running Spacewars!? > Well, you can shoot things. It's more fun than running LISP. :) Careful, the creator of LISP maybe reading this. Naturally, I haven't used LISP, so cannot base an opinion on it. > It would be nice to emulate it more fully, as you say, but doing the tape > punch/reader, mag tape, control panel etc is a bit tricky. Well it didn't stop someone writing an EDSAC emulator. That's older again, so I guess the same sort of readers are used to load in a program? I'm not particular sceptical about how accurate the emulation is in terms of readers or hardware accessories (as long as some sort of emulation can be done of it). The Screen seems to be more important (particularly if it can be done). The programs could just be a file on the system. But it's a bit disappointing that someone has written a PDP-1 emulator which doesn't support all the software written for the original machine. Hopefully, they'll make sure some improvements are made for it. Ross. ###### From: dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: 4 Mar 2003 03:28:35 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 68 Message-ID: <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.250.80.25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1046777315 22509 127.0.0.1 (4 Mar 2003 11:28:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2003 11:28:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131083 "Ross Simpson" wrote in message news:<3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>... > curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. The book also > talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze > being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly > used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? The Mouse in the Maze program was written for the TX-0, and I don't think it was ever ported to the PDP-1. The TX-0 was created at MIT in 1958 to test a 64K-word transistorized core memory. I wouldn't be surprised if the DEC people used ideas from the TX-0 instruction set to create the PDP-1 instruction set, but they really aren't the same. There are other games for the PDP-1, though I don't know of any besides Spacewar that use the CRT. I've seen listings for solitaire (with cards, not pegs) and Jotto (which I think is like Mastermind but you have to guess a five-letter word instead of four colors). And some of the games that were popular at the time were ported. See David Ahl's _BASIC Computer Games_ books for the kind I mean -- Hunt the Wumpus, 3-D tic-tac-toe, etc. Those are just examples; I don't remember which ones really were ported. All the non-CRT games use a typewriter connected to the computer, which types about ten characters a second. Most programs were written in machine language. The stock PDP-1 only had 4K words of memory and it would be hard to fit another language in. There is a LISP interpreter that runs in 4K, and LISP would be great for certain types of games, but I don't know of an actual example. There is also a FORTRAN compiler that would be good for porting the BASIC games. I doubt it runs in 4K though. MIT only had a few PDP-1s, max, and lots of people wanted to use them, so by definition they had as many uses as people wanted. The stories you hear are mostly about the programmers who wanted to push the machine to its limits in any way they could. (Writing games counts as pushing the machine to its limits, but so does writing a word processor, operating system, or FORTRAN. They even changed the hardware when they thought that would be useful.) But other people used the machine to do calculations and only needed to know about their area of expertise. I don't know how things were at other PDP-1 sites, but I imagine they were similar. It would be silly to spend all that money just to play games, or even to write them (who would you sell them to?), but on the other hand there was no hourly or monthly fee, so it would be natural to do some game playing. > One last thing. How did the games written for this machine compare with the > arcade type written (like Space Invaders in 1978)? Only reason I ask it is > because of some of varations of SpaceWar sound quite impressive. 1978 is about twenty years after the PDP-1 came out. Computer technology changed a great deal in that time, and costs went down, so things that weren't practical (like having a bit-mapped screen) became practical. Video-game writers also have different goals than research scientists, so the programs will be different. Some URLs: http://simh.traiing-edge.com/ (a PDP-1 emulator, includes the LISP interpreter, no CRT) http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/spacewar/ (a Java PDP-1 emulator set up to play Spacewar) http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/spacewar/sources/ (the sources for Spacewar, a cross-assembler, and the emulator) http://world.std.com/~dpbsmith/munch.html (emulates the Munching Squares "eye candy" program, tries to give you a good idea of what the real CRT looks like) -- Derek ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: 04 Mar 2003 12:42:34 +0100 Organization: nocrew Lines: 8 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <8565qz5ped.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: junk.nocrew.org (213.242.147.30) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1046778321 60387147 213.242.147.30 (16 [140306]) X-Orig-Path: junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!junk.nocrew.ORG!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131035 dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: > The TX-0 was created at MIT Lincoln Lab, to be precise, I think. -- Lars Brinkhoff, Services for Unix, Linux, GCC, PDP-10, HTTP Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler User-Agent: Gnus/5.090015 (Oort Gnus v0.15) Emacs/21.2 References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e62e8bf$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e647337$0$11663$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Cancel-Lock: sha1:ts2b5pnzKM/g4LwE9qaxiXGqihE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 12 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 13:50:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.77.112 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1046785835 209.244.77.112 (Tue, 04 Mar 2003 05:50:35 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 05:50:35 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!c03.atl99!rip!news.webusenet.com!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131024 "Ross Simpson" writes: > Careful, the creator of LISP maybe reading this. Naturally, I > haven't used LISP, so cannot base an opinion on it. some amount of drift: http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/sqlr95-Vera.html http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#60 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 20:21:56 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 46 Message-ID: <3e65c1f3$0$9533$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.43.2 X-Trace: 1046856180 9533 198.142.43.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131086 "Derek Peschel" wrote in message... > > curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. The book also > > talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze > > being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly > > used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? > > The Mouse in the Maze program was written for the TX-0, and I don't think > it was ever ported to the PDP-1. The TX-0 was created at MIT in 1958 > to test a 64K-word transistorized core memory. I wouldn't be surprised > if the DEC people used ideas from the TX-0 instruction set to create > the PDP-1 instruction set, but they really aren't the same. Ah okay. Yes I probably misinterpreted what the book states. Which is that 'Mouse-in-a-Maze, Spacewar! & other games around that period' were all public domain games. However the site I printed some information on about the TX-0, PDP-1 & Spacewar! described how the hackers took programs which ran on the TX-0 to the PDP-1. I don't think I would have misinterpreted that, however on the same note Mouse-in-a-Maze wasn't described as being one (if I recally correctly). > There are other games for the PDP-1, though I don't know of any besides > Spacewar that use the CRT. I've seen listings for solitaire (with cards, > not pegs) and Jotto (which I think is like Mastermind but you have to guess > a five-letter word instead of four colors). And some of the games that > were popular at the time were ported. See David Ahl's _BASIC Computer Games_ > books for the kind I mean -- Hunt the Wumpus, 3-D tic-tac-toe, etc. > Those are just examples; I don't remember which ones really were ported. Well BASIC was quite made when the PDP-1 came out, but yeah I get the idea! :-) > All the non-CRT games use a typewriter connected to the computer, which > types about ten characters a second. The ones with 'END TRANSMISSION' on the end? Or was it 'DISENGAGE'? (I've watched too many old movies with computers in). Ross. ###### Message-ID: <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1046908902 12.241.15.59 (Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:01:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:01:42 GMT Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:01:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131211 Roland Hutchinson wrote: > > philicorda wrote: > > >> Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running > >> Spacewars!? > > > > Well, you can shoot things. It's more fun than running LISP. :) > > Surely someone, somewhere, is coding up Spacewar in Common Lisp even as > we speak... > > ...and if not, I darned well want to know the reason why not! > Somewhere on the web, I saw a version of Spacewar! coded in Logo by Alan Kay...does that count??? (Well, some of the code was there...I did *not* try to run it.) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 18:57:31 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3e685130$0$12818$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.36.135 X-Trace: 1047023922 12818 198.142.36.135 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!newsfeed1.eu.ignite.net!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131415 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message... > > >> Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running > > >> Spacewars!? > > > > > > Well, you can shoot things. It's more fun than running LISP. :) > > > > Surely someone, somewhere, is coding up Spacewar in Common Lisp even as > > we speak... > > > > ...and if not, I darned well want to know the reason why not! > > > Somewhere on the web, I saw a version of Spacewar! coded in Logo > by Alan Kay...does that count??? (Well, some of the code was > there...I did *not* try to run it.) Well dare I say that Logo isn't quite like Lisp. But then I've used Logo, which 'can' be used for more than just Turtle Drawning. All I know about Lisp is, it's some language used for Artifical Intelligence Programming. I'd don't know if it compares to other languages of the time like Algol 60. Ross. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 09:15:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1047028527 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 07 Mar 2003 02:15:27 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 02:15:27 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!west.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131467 On 4 Mar 2003 03:28:35 -0800 in alt.folklore.computers, dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) wrote: >"Ross Simpson" wrote in message news:<3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>... > >> curiosity I was wonderning which language it would have used. The book also >> talks about a few other games which were written for it (Mouse-in-a-Maze >> being one), however would anyone know how many & was this machine mostly >> used as a games machine or could it used some serious applications? > >Most programs were written in machine language. The stock PDP-1 only had >4K words of memory and it would be hard to fit another language in. There is >a LISP interpreter that runs in 4K, and LISP would be great for certain >types of games, but I don't know of an actual example. There is also a >FORTRAN compiler that would be good for porting the BASIC games. I doubt >it runs in 4K though. A 4KW ForTran compiler was still available on the descendent (1->9->15) PDP-15, although normally the standard 8KW compiler was used. Dropped support for parsing some of the more esoteric I/O features, and may have had limits on expression complexity. I listed the source and took it home for a read, to get a better understanding of assembler on that machine and how to write tight code. IIRC it compressed 5/7 ASCII identifiers into RAD50 and compared to a length indexed RAD50 keyword table; the symbol table entry was three words per simple variable: two words for 6 char RAD50 identifier, the extra four bits encoded the data type, and a one word address; can't remember what it did for array dimensions: maybe an extra table entry?; generated inline code for control flow, integer and floating ops, or called the RTS for I/O. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Message-ID: <3E688F09.37233454@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> <3e685130$0$12818$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1047032658 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 07 Mar 2003 10:24:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 10:24:18 GMT Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2003 10:24:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131429 Ross Simpson wrote: > > "Charles Richmond" wrote in message... > > > > >> Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running > > > >> Spacewars!? > > > > > > > > Well, you can shoot things. It's more fun than running LISP. :) > > > > > > Surely someone, somewhere, is coding up Spacewar in Common Lisp even as > > > we speak... > > > > > > ...and if not, I darned well want to know the reason why not! > > > > > Somewhere on the web, I saw a version of Spacewar! coded in Logo > > by Alan Kay...does that count??? (Well, some of the code was > > there...I did *not* try to run it.) > > Well dare I say that Logo isn't quite like Lisp. But then I've used Logo, > which 'can' be used for more than just Turtle Drawning. All I know about > Lisp is, it's some language used for Artifical Intelligence Programming. I'd > don't know if it compares to other languages of the time like Algol 60. > IIRC, you can do some list processing with LOGO...it has "first" and "rest" functions built in... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> <3e685130$0$12818$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E688F09.37233454@ev1.net> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 23:52:19 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3e689647$0$16260$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.39.97 X-Trace: 1047041608 16260 198.142.39.97 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131420 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message... > > > Somewhere on the web, I saw a version of Spacewar! coded in Logo > > > by Alan Kay...does that count??? (Well, some of the code was > > > there...I did *not* try to run it.) > > Well dare I say that Logo isn't quite like Lisp. But then I've used Logo, > > which 'can' be used for more than just Turtle Drawning. All I know about > > Lisp is, it's some language used for Artifical Intelligence Programming. I'd > > don't know if it compares to other languages of the time like Algol 60. > IIRC, you can do some list processing with LOGO...it has "first" > and "rest" functions built in... Yes, I forgot to point out that it's been a while since I've used LOGO, so I merely relying on memory. The Turtle Graphics is merely a small portion to using Logo, a version I used for the Apple IIe based machines may also have some differences from the earlier Logos. One of the few commands took you to some sort of commmand line screen, where lots of instructions could be written for use as a Logo Program. Ross. ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> <3e685130$0$12818$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E688F09.37233454@ev1.net> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 09:21:12 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 62 Message-ID: <3e691b9e$0$27767$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.45.208 X-Trace: 1047075743 27767 198.142.45.208 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-sanjose!news-in-sanjose!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131431 "Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message... > >> > > >> Fair enough then. But what's this caper about only running > >> > > >> Spacewars!? > >> > > > > >> > > > Well, you can shoot things. It's more fun than running LISP. :) > >> > > > >> > > Surely someone, somewhere, is coding up Spacewar in Common Lisp > >> > > even as we speak... > >> > > > >> > > ...and if not, I darned well want to know the reason why not! > >> > > > >> > Somewhere on the web, I saw a version of Spacewar! coded in Logo > >> > by Alan Kay...does that count??? (Well, some of the code was > >> > there...I did *not* try to run it.) > >> > >> Well dare I say that Logo isn't quite like Lisp. But then I've used > >> Logo, which 'can' be used for more than just Turtle Drawning. All I > >> know about Lisp is, it's some language used for Artifical > >> Intelligence Programming. I'd don't know if it compares to other > >> languages of the time like Algol 60. > >> > > IIRC, you can do some list processing with LOGO...it has "first" > > and "rest" functions built in... > > Of course you can do list processing in Logo. It's fundamental to the > language. > > Contrary to popular superstition, Logo is not "Turtles all the way > down." > > Logo is a great deal like Lisp in spirit, in its built-in data types > (lists, strings, numbers, atoms), and in the kind of thinking that it > encourages in learners (to say nothing of the internal details of its > implementation). It's basically a simplified dialect of Lisp with > different syntax (no parentheses) and kid-friendly names for the > builtin functions (first and butfirst rather than car and cdr, for > example). > > Although the syntax is different from Lisp's (Logo's is much closer to > being Algol-like), it's still simple and uniform, so that the learner > doesn't have to commit to memory a bunch of completely arbitrary rules > for different "statement types" in order to start using and > understanding the language. > > The turtles are, in a sense, a distraction from the language itself. > You could of course give kiddies ANY language to let them play with > turtles. The pedagogical advantage of using Logo is that the language > is deliberately designed not to get in the way of thinking about the > problem domain, whether that domain is getting turtles to walk around > making polygons, understanding recursive functions, automatically > generating haiku, or writing a Lisp interpreter. For a game like Spacewar! the facilities which Logo provides for turtle drawing would be of benefit. I'd be more amazed if someone wrote such a game in languages such as early COBOL or FORTRAN. By the same token, FORTRAN maybe more capable of accomplishing this. Ross. ###### From: dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: 8 Mar 2003 07:02:03 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 41 Message-ID: <6b26c83b.0303080702.672cff4d@posting.google.com> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> <3e685130$0$12818$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E688F09.37233454@ev1.net> <3e689647$0$16260$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.250.140.249 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1047135723 19664 127.0.0.1 (8 Mar 2003 15:02:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Mar 2003 15:02:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131425 "Ross Simpson" wrote in message news:<3e689647$0$16260$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>... > Yes, I forgot to point out that it's been a while since I've used LOGO, so I > merely relying on memory. The Turtle Graphics is merely a small portion to > using Logo, a version I used for the Apple IIe based machines may also have > some differences from the earlier Logos. One of the few commands took you > to some sort of commmand line screen, where lots of instructions could be > written for use as a Logo Program. You're probably thinking of the "TO" command. Procedure definitions take the form TO foo ... lines ... END and typing the "TO foo" part fires up a full-screen editor. In the case of Terrapin Logo on the Apple, which was written by MIT people, the editor uses a tiny subset of EMACS' command keys! Yes, of course there's a syntax for declaring arguments -- I think it's TO foo :arg1 :arg2... but I never did any serious Logo programming. Terrapin runs on the ][+ as well as the //e (and doesn't take advantage of the //e's features). Also, Apple released Apple Logo which does take advantage of lowercase, the Open- and Solid-Apple keys, etc. It's wrong to say there are a few commands -- you can do about the same things outside a procedure as inside, and you can run DOS commands from the prompt as well. In that sense Logo is like LISP with its read-eval-print loop. Incidentally, getting back to the thread topic, Logo was written on the PDP-1. There were also real turtle robots (I remmber the Apple being able to control them) that would roll around on, and draw on, large pieces of paper on the floor. -- Derek ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> <3e685130$0$12818$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E688F09.37233454@ev1.net> <3e689647$0$16260$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303080702.672cff4d@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Lines: 33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 16:48:08 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.142.193.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1047138592 129.142.193.202 (Sat, 08 Mar 2003 16:49:52 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2003 16:49:52 CET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!uio.no!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131350 "Derek Peschel" skrev i en meddelelse news:6b26c83b.0303080702.672cff4d@posting.google.com... > You're probably thinking of the "TO" command. Procedure definitions > take the form > > TO foo > ... lines ... > END The word TO reminds me of an error I once made. I had 7 counters, one for each weekday. However, as I am rather lazy, I didnt want to write the names in full, so I wrote (in COBOL) 01 record 02 MA (monday) 02 TI (tuesday) 02 ON 02 TO (thursday) 02 FR .... It took me half a day to find the error. They eye only sees what it wants to see, obviously. A colleague in Philips (no Chris, he didnt do the 6000, he was a 4000 man !) He had to devise a series of names for backups. He had a set for use mondays and wednesday, tuesdays and thursdays, and one for friday. He called them MAO, TITO and FRED, where FREd means Fredag = friday. It was a nice "coincidence", that FRED translates into PEACE. This was during the days where Chairmain Mao and Tito were still in power Nico ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e689647$0$16260$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303080702.672cff4d@posting.google.com> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 15:55:13 +0000 Message-ID: <1p3d4b.ur2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Date: 08 Mar 2003 16:06:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.134.35 X-Trace: 1047139573 news.gradwell.net 66673 cbh/62.254.134.35 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!lon1-news.nildram.net!news-peer.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131303 According to Nico de Jong : > A colleague in Philips (no Chris, he didnt do the 6000, he was a 4000 man !) I quite liked the 4000s, based on what I saw. Good, nicely eccentric machines; shame they're not more widely known as they'd probably be a good folklore topic in their own right. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Currently playing: Sing Sing - "The Joy Of Sing Sing" (again) http://www.chrishedley.com My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: "Ross Simpson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e642d14$0$11660$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E66AB9E.98201AE8@ev1.net> <3e685130$0$12818$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E688F09.37233454@ev1.net> <3e689647$0$16260$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303080702.672cff4d@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:14:47 +1100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 62 Message-ID: <3e6a79ae$0$5553$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.142.35.153 X-Trace: 1047165359 5553 198.142.35.153 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131514 "Derek Peschel" wrote in message... > > Yes, I forgot to point out that it's been a while since I've used LOGO, so I > > merely relying on memory. The Turtle Graphics is merely a small portion to > > using Logo, a version I used for the Apple IIe based machines may also have > > some differences from the earlier Logos. One of the few commands took you > > to some sort of commmand line screen, where lots of instructions could be > > written for use as a Logo Program. > > You're probably thinking of the "TO" command. Procedure definitions > take the form > > TO foo > ... lines ... > END Yeah that's the one I was thinking of. Yes thinking of it now, it's certainally is like a procedure. > and typing the "TO foo" part fires up a full-screen editor. In the > case of Terrapin Logo on the Apple, which was written by MIT people, > the editor uses a tiny subset of EMACS' command keys! ah okay. > Yes, of course there's a syntax for declaring arguments -- I think it's > > TO foo :arg1 :arg2... > > but I never did any serious Logo programming. Neither did I to be honest! ;-) > Terrapin runs on the ][+ as well as the file://e (and doesn't take advantage > of the file://e's features). Also, Apple released Apple Logo which does take > advantage of lowercase, the Open- and Solid-Apple keys, etc. > > It's wrong to say there are a few commands -- you can do about the same > things outside a procedure as inside, and you can run DOS commands > from the prompt as well. In that sense Logo is like LISP with its > read-eval-print loop. Well yeah. An language which only supports graphics programming isn't much of a language. > Incidentally, getting back to the thread topic, Logo was written on the > PDP-1. There were also real turtle robots (I remmber the Apple being > able to control them) that would roll around on, and draw on, large pieces > of paper on the floor. Well that's interesting. Ross. ###### From: "Bill Leary" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e640726$1@news.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.62.100.245 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1047170404 24.62.100.245 (Sun, 09 Mar 2003 00:40:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 00:40:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 00:40:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131506 Some years ago I had a PC (MS-DOS) program which emulated Spacewar on the PDP-1. As it happens I live near Boston and I'd seen it running on the machine at the Computer Museum (thought I think I saw it before it was moved to TCM). The computer version put up the black circle on a grey background and played Spacewar in a manner which looked, as best I could recall, very much like the one seen on the actual machine, including phosphor decay and so forth. When the subject came up in this thread, I'd intended to find it and post that I had it. Well, I can't find it on any of my backups or archives. Does anyone else remember this thing? It required an EGA display and a '286 and ran under MS or PC-DOS. It used some keys on the left side of the keyboard to emulate one of the controllers, and keys on the right for the other. - Bill ###### From: Bernie Cosell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 07:42:40 -0500 Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers Lines: 14 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> <8565qz5ped.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Mar 9 06:41:28 2003 NNTP-Posting-Host: !e&-81k-XjOljVKEFNr%D16Xl (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131532 Lars Brinkhoff wrote: } dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: } > The TX-0 was created at MIT } } Lincoln Lab, to be precise, I think. Are you sure? I thought that Lincoln did the TX-2 and the TX-0 was done at MIT. [I don't know if there was a TX-1... was there?] /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- ###### From: Lars Brinkhoff Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: 09 Mar 2003 14:28:41 +0100 Organization: nocrew Lines: 14 Sender: lars@junk.nocrew.org Message-ID: <85of4k1xfa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> <8565qz5ped.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: junk.nocrew.org (213.242.147.30) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1047216623 63202342 213.242.147.30 (16 [140306]) X-Orig-Path: junk.nocrew.org!not-for-mail User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!junk.nocrew.ORG!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131562 Bernie Cosell writes: > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > } dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: > } > The TX-0 was created at MIT > } Lincoln Lab, to be precise, I think. > Are you sure? I thought that Lincoln did the TX-2 and the TX-0 was > done at MIT. [I don't know if there was a TX-1... was there?] No, I'm not sure. I got that that from chapter 1 of Steven Levy's book Hackers. -- Lars Brinkhoff, Services for Unix, Linux, GCC, PDP-10, HTTP Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: 09 Mar 2003 20:36:33 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 29 Message-ID: <6usmtwe3i6.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> <8565qz5ped.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <85of4k1xfa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1047238593 672 10.0.3.2 (9 Mar 2003 19:36:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2003 19:36:33 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131589 Lars Brinkhoff writes: > Bernie Cosell writes: > > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > } dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: > > } > The TX-0 was created at MIT > > } Lincoln Lab, to be precise, I think. > > Are you sure? I thought that Lincoln did the TX-2 and the TX-0 was > > done at MIT. [I don't know if there was a TX-1... was there?] > > No, I'm not sure. I got that that from chapter 1 of Steven Levy's > book Hackers. According to Wesley A Clark in [1] p355ff, TX-0 and TX-2 were made by the same (ex Whirlwind and MTC) team, at Lincoln Lab. [1] Adele Goldberg (ed), A History of Personal Workstations ACM Press, 1988, ISBN 0-201-11259-0 Conference proceedings of the same named conference. Details on PDPs, Whirlwind, Arpanet, Alto, Ethernet, Smalltalk, LINC. Lots of good stuff, highly recommended. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### Message-ID: <3E6BF624.9B7E99BD@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> <8565qz5ped.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1047255662 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:21:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:21:02 GMT Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 00:21:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131682 Bernie Cosell wrote: > > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > } dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: > } > The TX-0 was created at MIT > } > } Lincoln Lab, to be precise, I think. > > Are you sure? I thought that Lincoln did the TX-2 and the TX-0 was done at > MIT. [I don't know if there was a TX-1... was there?] > According to the _Hackers_ book, Lincoln Labs built the TX-0 to test the TX-2. After the testing was over, the TX-0 was sent to MIT on "long term loan" with *no* return date specified. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: 10 Mar 2003 06:08:00 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 42 Message-ID: <6b26c83b.0303100608.357ee761@posting.google.com> References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <6b26c83b.0303040328.1c775dd2@posting.google.com> <8565qz5ped.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.250.80.70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1047305280 6491 127.0.0.1 (10 Mar 2003 14:08:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2003 14:08:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:131671 Bernie Cosell wrote in message news:... > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > } dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) writes: > } > The TX-0 was created at MIT > } > } Lincoln Lab, to be precise, I think. > > Are you sure? I thought that Lincoln did the TX-2 and the TX-0 was done at > MIT. [I don't know if there was a TX-1... was there?] Lars is right. I was sloppy, using "MIT" to mean "the MIT community". I visited Bob Saunders on February 9th to borrow some listings, and he gave me a summarized history. It was created at Lincoln to test the 64K core memory they had built. BTW although the core memory had transistor controller circuits, the TX-0 itself used tubes. The computer, but not the memory, was donated to MIT proper. Bob didn't say why they were separated. It could have happened while the computer was still at LL. The 64K module was replaced with 4K (I don't know what form). Most of Lincoln's programs became useless, so the MIT people began writing a new set. They also changed the opcode length from 2 bits to 5 (decoding only six instructions though). They they added more decoding logic (bringing the total to 20 instructions) and added an index register. By the end of its lifetime, the TX-0 had 8K and magnetic tape drives. Watch Al Kossow's site for scans of the relevant memos. One of the programs MIT wote (Bob thought Tom Stockham) is Utility Tape 3, or UT-3, which became MicroFlit, which was ported to the PDP-1 and renamed DDT. I'm still trying to find out about regular Flit. It was too big with only 4K. There's another set of programs for debugging and control, called HARK and EXPEDITE, which had no descendants. The MIT library still has a paper describing HARK and EXPEDITE. No Bernie, I (and more importantly Bob) never heard of a TX-1 either. The TX-2 CPU has a totally different organization than the TX-0. Al already has part of the TX-2 programmer's guide. -- Derek ###### From: cdl@deeptow.(none) (Carl Lowenstein) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:22:57 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Marine Physical Lab, U.C. San Diego Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: deeptow.ucsd.edu X-Trace: news1.ucsd.edu 1048008177 14986 192.135.238.192 (18 Mar 2003 17:22:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news1.ucsd.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:22:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cdl@deeptow.(none) (Carl Lowenstein) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!xmission!news.cc.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.ucsd.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132451 In article , Geoffrey G. Rochat <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> wrote: >You can find details on the Type 30 CRT Display for the PDP-1 on Al Kossow's >site, in the PDP-1 Handbook. Details on the PDP-7's 340 Graphics Processor, >specifically, are not available (And if anyone has the information, please >get it to Al!), but the 339 Graphics Processor used on the PDP-9, a >re-packaged PDP-7, are available on Al's site in the PDP-9 folder. I am at >a loss to find a similar reference to raster-scanning; I used to have an >excellent book in my well-ordered library, a pamphlet published by a company >in Westford, MA, that made raster-scanned systems, but since I can't >remember the name of the company I appear to have lost the information in >alphabetical order. You might try Don Lancaster's "The TV Typewriter" book. >For television technology in general, there is no better place to start than >Grob's "Basic Television." It's taken me a week or more to recall the name, but were you perhaps thinking of Conrac as a raster-scan monitor manufacturer? carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenst@ucsd.edu ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:57:04 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.167 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1048020950 11225 208.244.111.167 (18 Mar 2003 20:55:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 20:55:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132481 > It's taken me a week or more to recall the name, but were you perhaps > thinking of Conrac as a raster-scan monitor manufacturer? No, the company I was thinking of was Raster Technology. They made complete display system that included a monitor. AFAIK, Conrac made just the monitors themselves. I designed 'em into systems all the time when I worked in the TV broadcast business. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:43:10 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Spies In the Wire Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 18 Mar 2003 17:32:08 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!unknown!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132409 >>I used to have an >>excellent book in my well-ordered library, a pamphlet published by a company >>in Westford, MA, that made raster-scanned systems, but since I can't >>remember the name of the company I appear to have lost the information in >>alphabetical order. > It's taken me a week or more to recall the name, but were you perhaps > thinking of Conrac as a raster-scan monitor manufacturer? Conrac published a paperback called "The Raster Graphics Handbook" guess I should add it to the 'to be scanned' pile. ###### From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:57:50 -0500 Organization: Sprint Advanced Network Services Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <777geoff777@777pkworks777.777com777> NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.244.111.156 X-Trace: news.utelfla.com 1048046197 15265 208.244.111.156 (19 Mar 2003 03:56:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.utelfla.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 03:56:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news.sprintnetops.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132485 Al Kossow wrote in message news:b58eeu$jhh$1@spies.com... > >>I used to have an > >>excellent book in my well-ordered library, a pamphlet published by a company > >>in Westford, MA, that made raster-scanned systems, but since I can't > >>remember the name of the company I appear to have lost the information in > >>alphabetical order. > > > It's taken me a week or more to recall the name, but were you perhaps > > thinking of Conrac as a raster-scan monitor manufacturer? > > Conrac published a paperback called "The Raster Graphics Handbook" > > guess I should add it to the 'to be scanned' pile. Al and Carl Lowenstein, I stand corrected. (Well, sit actually. But you get the idea...) Yes, it was the Raster Graphics Handbook from Conrac I remember, but it was also Raster Technologies the company I was thinking of. I suppose, then, it's reasonable to conclude Conrac made more than just the monitors themselves. After awhile one's bran..., er, brin..., ah, bren..., one's cerebral cortex shrinks, leaving a lot more room inside the skull for dimly-remembered old factoids to come loose and fly off on ballistic trajectories, to then collide, merge and form false associations. Yes, Al, you should scan "The Raster Graphics Handbook" too. Please. ###### Message-ID: <3E78B3AA.19C0D7EA@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:21:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.252.49.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1048098063 158.252.49.111 (Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:21:03 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:21:03 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:132633 "Geoffrey G. Rochat" wrote: > > It's taken me a week or more to recall the name, but were you perhaps > > thinking of Conrac as a raster-scan monitor manufacturer? They were the primary supplier of monitors for raster displays (usually driven by Aydin Controls text based units) in the 70's and early 80's used in most "process control" systems. I used them in the railroad industry and noticed that the Space Shuttle simulators outside Houston (in 81) had many Aydins and Conrac's in them. > No, the company I was thinking of was Raster Technology. They made complete > display system that included a monitor. AFAIK, Conrac made just the > monitors themselves. I designed 'em into systems all the time when I worked > in the TV broadcast business. I acquired one of these in the mid 80's as a possible replacement for the Aydin/Conrac stuff we had been supplying up to that time. We built a really spiffy high density display (1280x1024) based on it and then I discovered Sun workstations (initially a 3/110) which for just a little more money could do a whole lot more and Raster Technology was "history". Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E78B3AA.19C0D7EA@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:30:20 -0500 Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 NNTP-Posting-Host: c005766.customers.cinergycom.net X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: c005766.customers.cinergycom.net Message-ID: <3e81ffce_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1048707022 c005766.customers.cinergycom.net (26 Mar 2003 14:30:22 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.135.61.138 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-out.visi.com!petbe.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:133415 "jchausler" wrote in message news:3E78B3AA.19C0D7EA@earthlink.net... > > > "Geoffrey G. Rochat" wrote: > > > > It's taken me a week or more to recall the name, but were you perhaps > > > thinking of Conrac as a raster-scan monitor manufacturer? > > They were the primary supplier of monitors for > raster displays (usually driven by Aydin Controls > text based units) in the 70's and early 80's used > in most "process control" systems. I used them > in the railroad industry and noticed that the Space > Shuttle simulators outside Houston (in 81) had > many Aydins and Conrac's in them. Television studios also used Conrac monitors, in the 60s, up until maybe the early 70s, maybe later for some poorer stations... I've got two of the damned things, begging to be boat anchors, but I've got no bass boat! ###### From: Joe Morris Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: The PDP-1 - games machine? Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:23:39 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3e601025$0$27765$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3e615335$0$27766$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3E78B3AA.19C0D7EA@earthlink.net> <3e81ffce_3@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1048717419 27770 128.29.24.210 (26 Mar 2003 22:23:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 22:23:39 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: nn/6.6.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:133626 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" writes: >Television studios also used Conrac monitors, in >the 60s, up until maybe the early 70s, maybe later >for some poorer stations... >I've got two of the damned things, begging to be >boat anchors, but I've got no bass boat! The TV station I worked for as an engineer used Conrac monitors for the main studio control room. We (the engineers) hated the damned things; although everybody swore that it was a spontaneous event, one of the monitors caught fire and much to everybody's pleasure, destroyed the entire monitor row. The biggest disappointment of the incident was that the fire failed to destroy the control chassis for the iconoscope camera used for the slide chain, even though it was sitting on its side directly under the shelf of burning monitors. I doubt that anyone who's ever worked with an iconoscope needs to ask why we wanted it to go away. Joe Morris