From: Tony Lima Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Tony Lima Associates Reply-To: TonyLima2@att.net Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/16.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:23:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.81.65.27 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1042413804 12.81.65.27 (Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:23:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 23:23:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126319 I recently bought a new electric toothbrush. (If you have a problem with that, talk to my dentist.) While perusing the short instruction manual I noticed that technology has improved: the toothbrush now begins with gentle brushing, gradually increasing speed over the first week or so until it reaches full force. Then came the clincher. You can start the cycle over again by holding down the power button for five seconds. I realized I had just read the instructions for re-booting my toothbrush. I feel very old. - Tony -- Tony Lima /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign \ / against HTML mail X and postings / \ ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mensanator@aol.com (Mensanator) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 13 Jan 2003 02:04:40 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126242 >Subject: YKYBHTLW... >From: Tony Lima TonyLima2@att.net >Date: 1/12/2003 5:23 PM Central Standard Time >Message-id: > >I recently bought a new electric toothbrush. (If you have a >problem with that, talk to my dentist.) While perusing the >short instruction manual I noticed that technology has >improved: the toothbrush now begins with gentle brushing, >gradually increasing speed over the first week or so until >it reaches full force. > >Then came the clincher. You can start the cycle over again >by holding down the power button for five seconds. I >realized I had just read the instructions for re-booting my >toothbrush. I feel very old. - Tony How do you get to the CMOS settings? > >-- >Tony Lima /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign > \ / against HTML mail > X and postings > / \ ###### From: Lionel Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 14:34:21 +1100 Organization: none at all Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunhill.gothconsultants.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bullwinkle.boggle.org 1042428893 25371 203.8.21.225 (13 Jan 2003 03:34:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@boggle.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 03:34:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!peernews.manap.net!peer.news.zetnet.net!btnet-feed3!btnet-peer0!btnet!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!tahina.priv.at!news.boggle.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126308 Word has it that on 13 Jan 2003 02:04:40 GMT, in this august forum, mensanator@aol.com (Mensanator) said: [electric toothbrush] >>Then came the clincher. You can start the cycle over again >>by holding down the power button for five seconds. I >>realized I had just read the instructions for re-booting my >>toothbrush. I feel very old. - Tony > >How do you get to the CMOS settings? And where do you put the SIMM when you want to increase the amount of RAM? -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "GrahamReid" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:22:45 -0000 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 81.78.76.66 X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1042442508 7834 81.78.76.66 (13 Jan 2003 07:21:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 2003 07:21:48 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126262 How many bytes of D-RAM (Dental RAM)? Does it run under the FLOSS operating system? Graham (Low puns a speciality!) "Lionel" wrote in message news:1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com... > Word has it that on 13 Jan 2003 02:04:40 GMT, in this august forum, > mensanator@aol.com (Mensanator) said: > > [electric toothbrush] > >>Then came the clincher. You can start the cycle over again > >>by holding down the power button for five seconds. I > >>realized I had just read the instructions for re-booting my > >>toothbrush. I feel very old. - Tony > > > >How do you get to the CMOS settings? > > And where do you put the SIMM when you want to increase the amount of > RAM? > > -- > W > . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because > \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est > ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.118.121.151 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1042464472 24.118.121.151 (Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:27:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:27:52 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:27:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news.astraweb.com!news-small.astraweb.com!prodigy.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126318 > I > realized I had just read the instructions for re-booting my > toothbrush. I feel very old. - Tony Could be worse, I accidentally started up our breadmaker before setting all the right options. Thats when I realized there's no on/off switch or STOP button. I frantically tried pushing all the buttons and the thing just kept kneading away. I unplugged it for a few seconds, plugged it in again, and it took up where it left off!!! The Break Maker That Would Not Forget !! That's when I needed to know how to re-boot the breadmaker. Answer: unplug it for at least a minute. ###### From: "Russ Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Lines: 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:12:15 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.183.117.237 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1042481542 216.183.117.237 (Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:12:22 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:12:22 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126256 "Lionel" wrote in message news:1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com... > And where do you put the SIMM when you want to increase the amount of > RAM? It's probably not expandable... That would lead to excess Over-Byte, you see. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 13 Jan 2003 20:34:50 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6uu1gc7sit.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1042486490 821 10.0.3.2 (13 Jan 2003 19:34:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jan 2003 19:34:50 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126336 Lionel writes: > mensanator@aol.com (Mensanator) said: > > >>realized I had just read the instructions for re-booting my > >>toothbrush. I feel very old. - Tony > > > >How do you get to the CMOS settings? > > And where do you put the SIMM when you want to increase the amount of > RAM? The battery case. Just put in higher voltage for more RAMming. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 14 Jan 03 12:57:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaDdryHez3ewIcXZmOWCFCBlE9Ex9klZ4FJXCZeEFTuJEIGehcoRUDc X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 2003 13:32:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-126 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126368 In article , Tony Lima wrote: >On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 07:22:45 -0000, "GrahamReid" > wrote: > >>How many bytes of D-RAM (Dental RAM)? > >We'll need the DOSDD (Dental Operating System Diagnostic >Disk) to figure that out. > >>Does it run under the FLOSS operating system? > >Yes, but that's not the GUI (Gum Underline Interface) >version. FLOSS is obsolete. > >>Graham (Low puns a speciality!) > >Back at ya. - T Now I understand why this is all so painful--no ether..net. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 14 Jan 03 12:58:12 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ1LDaHfKG2z3xyEYm4bSZnNqGoguQTUt0gTnWMWrzVVOUuoMdGePpY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 2003 13:33:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-126 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126369 In article , "Russ Holsclaw" wrote: >"Lionel" wrote in message >news:1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com... >> And where do you put the SIMM when you want to increase the >amount of >> RAM? > >It's probably not expandable... That would lead to excess >Over-Byte, you see. > That was a very good one. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 09:08:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1042535328 24.71.223.147 (Tue, 14 Jan 2003 02:08:48 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 02:08:48 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126396 On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 11:12:15 -0700, "Russ Holsclaw" wrote: >"Lionel" wrote in message >news:1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com... >> And where do you put the SIMM when you want to increase the >amount of >> RAM? > >It's probably not expandable... That would lead to excess >Over-Byte, you see. You need to get an appointment with Dr. Dobbs Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: "Russ Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 05:56:08 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.4.94.4 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1042635274 67.4.94.4 (Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:54:34 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:54:34 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126460 "Brian Inglis" wrote in message news:2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com... > >It's probably not expandable... That would lead to excess > >Over-Byte, you see. > > You need to get an appointment with Dr. Dobbs Very good, you win the trivia contest. I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the masthead, do they? ###### From: Tony Miller Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:20:25 -0500 Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: millert.vtls.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: solaris.cc.vt.edu 1042636845 16054 198.17.62.28 (15 Jan 2003 13:20:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:20:45 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.vt.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126457 Russ Holsclaw wrote: > "Brian Inglis" wrote in message > news:2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com... > >>>It's probably not expandable... That would lead to excess >>>Over-Byte, you see. >> >>You need to get an appointment with Dr. Dobbs > > > Very good, you win the trivia contest. > > I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the > masthead, do they? > > No, and in addition, they have been bought by a computer magazine publishing company called CMP. Each issue gets thinner and has less material in it. -- Tony Miller famille@AlphaCharlieMike.org Change from phonetic to regular alphabet to reply ###### From: Lionel Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 02:09:28 +1100 Organization: none at all Lines: 16 Message-ID: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunhill.gothconsultants.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bullwinkle.boggle.org 1042643402 30185 203.8.21.225 (15 Jan 2003 15:10:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@boggle.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:10:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!195.149.39.56.MISMATCH!news-peer-lilac.gradwell.net!news.boggle.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126496 Word has it that on Wed, 15 Jan 2003 05:56:08 -0700, in this august forum, "Russ Holsclaw" said: >I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the >masthead, do they? Not for many, many years, sadly. I really liked the original masthead. The whole 'medicine show' look seems even more appropriate for the computer industry now than it did at the time. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:03:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1042646605 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:03:25 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:03:25 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126489 On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 05:56:08 -0700, "Russ Holsclaw" wrote: > >"Brian Inglis" wrote in message >news:2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com... >> >It's probably not expandable... That would lead to excess >> >Over-Byte, you see. >> >> You need to get an appointment with Dr. Dobbs > >Very good, you win the trivia contest. > >I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the >masthead, do they? They've dropped the whole "of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia: Running Light without Overbyte" bit and the current tag line is: "Software Tools for the Professional Programmer". Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:04:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1042646697 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:04:57 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:04:57 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!news-xfer.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126425 On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 08:20:25 -0500, Tony Miller wrote: >Russ Holsclaw wrote: >> "Brian Inglis" wrote in message >> news:2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com... >> >>>>It's probably not expandable... That would lead to excess >>>>Over-Byte, you see. >>> >>>You need to get an appointment with Dr. Dobbs >> >> >> Very good, you win the trivia contest. >> >> I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the >> masthead, do they? >> >> > >No, and in addition, they have been bought by a computer magazine >publishing company called CMP. Each issue gets thinner and has less >material in it. recently, 33 journal pages from a total of 80 including covers Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:23:53 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126432 Lionel wrote: >>I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the >>masthead, do they? > Not for many, many years, sadly. > I really liked the original masthead. The whole 'medicine show' look > seems even more appropriate for the computer industry now than it did at > the time. Still Dr Dobbs has to be I think on of the longer running publications around. Where is BYTE for example? Ben. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:47:39 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126477 bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Lionel wrote: >>>I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the >>>masthead, do they? >> Not for many, many years, sadly. >> I really liked the original masthead. The whole 'medicine show' look >> seems even more appropriate for the computer industry now than it did at >> the time. > > > Still Dr Dobbs has to be I think on of the longer running publications > around. Where is BYTE for example? Ben. > Where all magazines go to die - it's on the web - which leaves it in the domain of 'zines and press releases. (Actually, that's not strictly fair. The best motorsport magazine I read is online-only...) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Lionel Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:46:31 +1100 Organization: none at all Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: dunhill.gothconsultants.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: bullwinkle.boggle.org 1042674426 23748 203.8.21.225 (15 Jan 2003 23:47:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@boggle.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 23:47:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!tahina.priv.at!news.boggle.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126809 Word has it that on Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:23:53 -0700, in this august forum, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca said: >Lionel wrote: >>>I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the >>>masthead, do they? >> Not for many, many years, sadly. >> I really liked the original masthead. The whole 'medicine show' look >> seems even more appropriate for the computer industry now than it did at >> the time. > >Still Dr Dobbs has to be I think on of the longer running publications >around. True. I still buy it on the very rare occasion that there's an article in it with something that interests me. When did Dr Dobbs start up, anyway? ISTR it being some time in the late 70's, but wouldn't swear to it. >Where is BYTE for example? Ben. They died years ago, sadly. Mind you, Byte pretty much lost my interest about the period when Circuit Cellar split off, & they started turning into yet another review magazine. -- W . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:25:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1042676745 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:25:45 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:25:45 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!64.154.60.99.MISMATCH!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126745 On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:46:31 +1100, Lionel wrote: >Word has it that on Wed, 15 Jan 2003 09:23:53 -0700, in this august >forum, bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca said: > >>Lionel wrote: >>>>I don't imagine that Dr. Dobbs still uses that tag-line on the >>>>masthead, do they? >>> Not for many, many years, sadly. >>> I really liked the original masthead. The whole 'medicine show' look >>> seems even more appropriate for the computer industry now than it did at >>> the time. >> >>Still Dr Dobbs has to be I think on of the longer running publications >>around. > >True. I still buy it on the very rare occasion that there's an article >in it with something that interests me. > >When did Dr Dobbs start up, anyway? ISTR it being some time in the late >70's, but wouldn't swear to it. DDJ Started January 1976 -- January 2001 was 25th Anniversary issue >>Where is BYTE for example? Ben. > >They died years ago, sadly. Mind you, Byte pretty much lost my interest >about the period when Circuit Cellar split off, & they started turning >into yet another review magazine. Another *PC* review magazine! I liked it because it used to look around at what else was out there and different from the run of the mill PC. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:35:04 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!telocity-west!DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126712 David Wade wrote: >> Where all magazines go to die - it's on the web - which leaves it in the >> domain of 'zines and press releases. >> > > But even that now looks like getting chopped. I see they are starting to ask > for subscriptions.... > I just wandered over there for the first time in probably a couple of years. It *looks* amateurish. And anything that puts an article by that shambling computer-illiterate Pournelle top of the contents list really must be scraping the barrel. It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Message-ID: <3E2874F7.E15B4244@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1042831645 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:27:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:27:25 GMT Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:27:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126763 Pete Fenelon wrote: > > David Wade wrote: > >> Where all magazines go to die - it's on the web - which leaves it in the > >> domain of 'zines and press releases. > >> > > > > But even that now looks like getting chopped. I see they are starting to ask > > for subscriptions.... > > > > I just wandered over there for the first time in probably a couple of > years. It *looks* amateurish. And anything that puts an article by that > shambling computer-illiterate Pournelle top of the contents list really > must be scraping the barrel. > > It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I > started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra > Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... > IMHO the beginning of the end...was when they stop putting computer listings in the magazine. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:48:46 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-555.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bos-service1.ext.raytheon.com!cyclone.swbell.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126744 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > I just wandered over there for the first time in probably a couple of > years. It *looks* amateurish. And anything that puts an article by that > shambling computer-illiterate Pournelle top of the contents list really > must be scraping the barrel. You can refer to Pournelle as a computer-illiterate?? I won't say much -for- the man, but I won't say he's clueless. Or at least, not completely. > It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I > started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra > Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... Yeah, and the editors knew it. They also knew what was desired by the technical people who used to read the magazine, and specifically changed it. More info on this if anyone is interested. -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 20:02:29 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3e28f144.56057182@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126556 Brian Inglis wrote: [snip] >They've dropped the whole "of Computer Calisthenics and >Orthodontia: Running Light without Overbyte" bit and the current >tag line is: "Software Tools for the Professional Programmer". How professional. Also, how boring. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 10 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:27:11 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.189.79 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1042924537 209.96.189.79 (Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:15:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:15:37 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!nntp.abs.net!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126518 In article , Tony Miller wrote: > No, and in addition, they have been bought by a computer magazine > publishing company called CMP. Each issue gets thinner and has less > material in it. ...kind of like every computer magazine they buy. Nothing new here. Byte is little more than a nibble these days, if that. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 13 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 15:29:14 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.189.79 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1042924538 209.96.189.79 (Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:15:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 16:15:38 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126516 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I > started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra > Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... ...who were all, as far as I know, forced to leave because their content was no longer acceptable. Steve formed his own magazine, which was still selling last time I was looking for it. Circuit Cellar, Ink or something like that. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 18 Jan 03 17:51:22 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-577.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126864 In article howard@shubs.net (Howard S Shubs) writes: >In article , > Pete Fenelon wrote: > >> I just wandered over there for the first time in probably a couple >> of years. It *looks* amateurish. And anything that puts an article >> by that shambling computer-illiterate Pournelle top of the contents >> list really must be scraping the barrel. > >You can refer to Pournelle as a computer-illiterate?? I won't say >much -for- the man, but I won't say he's clueless. Or at least, not >completely. I originally enjoyed his columns a lot. I cheered while reading his howls of outrage at the original IBM PC keyboard layout, since they echoed my own. But after a few years the columns turned into a neverending series of horror stories resulting from his use of Wintel boxes. I had already found my solution - just say no to Microsoft - and his columns, while constantly vindicating my position, started becoming boring. As for the rest of the magazine, I gave up reading it when I realized that it had turned into yet another Wintel rag. When I heard of its folding I didn't mourn - I had already done that when they got rid of the likes of Steve Ciarcia. >> It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I >> started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra >> Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... > >Yeah, and the editors knew it. They also knew what was desired by >the technical people who used to read the magazine, and specifically >changed it. More info on this if anyone is interested. It sounds as if you have an interesting story to tell. Please do. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: Howard S Shubs Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:01:03 -0500 Organization: ='SEQUENTIAL' Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-040.newsdawg.com Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Face: "S"r{U%bs].&Ud}Pc~~~0a]M:t5l>>EN\1Faw10M9NK1Xq59wo7-"s0S+[{etQorO /Nf-Ci"i9v'MT!R8)J]N[4|2&x1r^Iq&{SB"6dknr0=+6UFb.>+{zMn_1=rw&/V+"d@* ZS5\LoW_ Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!howard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126876 In article <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > I originally enjoyed his columns a lot. I cheered while reading his > howls of outrage at the original IBM PC keyboard layout, since they > echoed my own. But after a few years the columns turned into a > neverending series of horror stories resulting from his use of > Wintel boxes. I had already found my solution - just say no > to Microsoft - and his columns, while constantly vindicating > my position, started becoming boring. Yep. I've met him, and I've read some of his writing both with and w/o Niven. With Niven, he's okay. W/o Niven, I can't force myself through his text. The man's got an ego, shall we say, that is well moderated by his wife, who makes him bearable, in my experience. > >Yeah, and the editors knew it. They also knew what was desired by > >the technical people who used to read the magazine, and specifically > >changed it. More info on this if anyone is interested. > > It sounds as if you have an interesting story to tell. Please do. Fair enough. I got on BIX, BYTE's on-line service, back in 1987. I was a long time reader of BYTE by then, and wanted in on the fun I was seeing in Best Of BIX. The February 1988 issue of BYTE was tiny. And it was filled with crud. Starting that month, I and another guy started posting article-by-article critiques of the magazine in Bruce Webster's BIX conference. A few months later, a -single- article of the old type which -made- BYTE appeared. I and the other guy said so, at length. Fred Langa, the chief editor of the magazine at the time, was a participant in that conference and had been reading our "reviews". I don't recall exactly what was said, but it became clear that they knew exactly what we'all wanted, but were specifically not giving it to us, because they no longer saw techies as their primary audience. At that point, I let my subscription lapse and I haven't missed it. One of the other participants became the chief editor at Dr. Dobbs, and asked me to do the same for that magazine. I asked him to send me a few copies, which he did. It didn't work out, as I hadn't been reading DDJ for years as I had been with BYTE. Still, I mention this to show that there -was- a clearly acknowledged, positive feeling about this from the other side of the screen, at the magazines. -- Today, on Paper-view: The World Origami Championship ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 21:32:33 -0700 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1fozdcb.1uyv7rh1ekdw6qN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.com (198.31.26.33) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1042950754 25179057 198.31.26.33 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126880 Howard S Shubs wrote: > In article , > Pete Fenelon wrote: > > > It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I > > started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra > > Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... > > Yeah, and the editors knew it. They also knew what was desired by the > technical people who used to read the magazine, and specifically changed > it. More info on this if anyone is interested. I'm all ears! (or should that be 'eyes'?) My guess would be that techies are usually not the ones controlling the budget, and that the editors changed Byte to address those who do. But since I haven't read Byte in decades, that's just speculation. ###### Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 08:50:00 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 2003 08:33:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p0318.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=:^E5I0Q^Fj]TI3n3JL>nlZ1`\LnN2UYYQ>lD2KZD:LmT3LjPn``00XXMijWS[eXVmX?_g6d]\PjK\ X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126870 On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:48:46 -0500 Howard S Shubs wrote: HSS> You can refer to Pournelle as a computer-illiterate?? I won't say HSS> much -for- the man, but I won't say he's clueless. Or at least, not HSS> completely. When his column first appeared in Byte he struck me as nearly completely computer illiterate - in fact I thought that was the point of the column, a light hearted look at the trials and tribulations of a non expert trying to get some use out of computers. I never enjoyed it much. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 07:57:35 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-999.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126859 In article <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid>, cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid says... > In article > howard@shubs.net (Howard S Shubs) writes: > > >In article , > > Pete Fenelon wrote: > > > >> I just wandered over there for the first time in probably a couple > >> of years. It *looks* amateurish. And anything that puts an article > >> by that shambling computer-illiterate Pournelle top of the contents > >> list really must be scraping the barrel. > > > >You can refer to Pournelle as a computer-illiterate?? I won't say > >much -for- the man, but I won't say he's clueless. Or at least, not > >completely. > > I originally enjoyed his columns a lot. I cheered while reading his > howls of outrage at the original IBM PC keyboard layout, since they > echoed my own. But after a few years the columns turned into a > neverending series of horror stories resulting from his use of > Wintel boxes. I had already found my solution - just say no > to Microsoft - and his columns, while constantly vindicating > my position, started becoming boring. FWIW, did you notice that both the quality of his column and his productivity as a writer went to Hell right about the time that he returned the CompuPro to Bill Godbout for an upgrade that apparently never happened? He and Niven used to get out one novel every couple of years, and most of them were pretty good. He promised that "The Moat Around Murcheson's Eye" would be finished "real soon now" for at least a couple of years, and since then their releases have been quite irregular. I think he violated one of the cardinal rules of the technician game--if it ain't broke, don't fix it. His writing system wasn't broke, but he fixed it anyway and the result appears to have broken _him_. > As for the rest of the magazine, I gave up reading it when > I realized that it had turned into yet another Wintel rag. > When I heard of its folding I didn't mourn - I had already > done that when they got rid of the likes of Steve Ciarcia. > > >> It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I > >> started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra > >> Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... > > > >Yeah, and the editors knew it. They also knew what was desired by > >the technical people who used to read the magazine, and specifically > >changed it. More info on this if anyone is interested. > > It sounds as if you have an interesting story to tell. Please do. > > -- > /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) > \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. > X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. > / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! > > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### Message-ID: <3E2AF4C3.B6CF418E@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 19:02:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.119 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1043002946 168.191.124.119 (Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:02:26 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:02:26 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126847 Pete Fenelon wrote: > It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I > started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra > Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... I thought it died in the early 80's. I let my subscription lapse in 83. As I still have most issues prior to this time I still occasionally refer to them although more now for entertainment than not (although, even then, it was primarily for "entertainment", just of a different kind). Chris AN HGETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com><1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com><2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com><4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043008045 29992 80.177.7.220 (19 Jan 2003 20:27:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:25 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126869 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net... > On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:48:46 -0500 > Howard S Shubs wrote: > > HSS> You can refer to Pournelle as a computer-illiterate?? I won't say > HSS> much -for- the man, but I won't say he's clueless. Or at least, not > HSS> completely. > > When his column first appeared in Byte he struck me as nearly completely > computer illiterate - in fact I thought that was the point of the column, > a light hearted look at the trials and tribulations of a non expert trying > to get some use out of computers. I never enjoyed it much. I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like UNIX... Instead he'd fart around with a zillion TSRs and bitch about his IRQ conflicts... I used to read Byte for the broad view of the micro industry, but as everything else did it became PC-centric (understandably, but it sucked just the same). Cheers, Rupert ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 12:30:41 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYEq3KpAgp94er17c0/mt1MZeSjwLdWLnsp1InqWOCATBZxaaF4dHKH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 2003 13:07:20 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-85 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126939 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article , J Clarke wrote: > >> >> FWIW, did you notice that both the quality of his column and his >> productivity as a writer went to Hell right about the time that he >> returned the CompuPro to Bill Godbout for an upgrade that apparently >> never happened? > >I think it went down even worse later than that, especially when >he moved to the very word processors he said were so bad. > >There is something else about his writing that has changed, that I don't >really have words for. It's just like it is repetive, vanilla, no meat. > >When I was a kid, I thought his writing was much better, and he also >seemed to be more computer literate. Didn't he have a close friend who would proof his technical detail for accuracy? When that friend died, so went the sanity check. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 20 Jan 03 11:15:09 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1034.150T452T6753305@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-866.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126961 In article my_spamtrap@eudoramail.com (Roland Hutchinson) writes: >Chris Hedley wrote: > >> I witnessed what I think was the tail-end of its transition from >> "interesting" >> to "dull PC-centric" in the late '80s when I started buying it. I >> persisted for quite a while because of its reputation, expecting the >> groovy articles of legend to eventually resurface but they never did. > >My undoubtedly fallible recollection is that it was all pretty much >downhill after the Smalltalk issue (August 1981; I just looked it up). > >Of course, one could argue that that issue was so good, there was no >possible direction to go but down thereafter. On the other hand, consider the date. It was that black month when the IBM PC was introduced. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 20 Jan 03 11:20:37 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1088.150T1855T6804924@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-867.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126964 In article shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: >What always struck me is how he used to write about software which was >conducive to writing books, and how bad some ideas were. Yet, he know >uses Microsoft Word, one of the worst programs in the world to use if >you are trying to WRITE something. > >Go figure. Back in the days of his CP/M box he used to often mention how a word processor should fill the screen with words, not all sorts of extraneous junk. IIRC his favourite program had a single status line at the bottom of the screen, leaving the remainder for writing. It's truly ironic that he's gone over to software which follows the modern paradigm of devoting half the screen to useless gadgets. I guess I really did have good reasons for giving up on Byte. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:09:10 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-690.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!fr.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!news.it.colt.net!itgate.net!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126955 In article , darkboo-remove- this-ng.@hotmail.com says... > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > news:20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net... > > On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:48:46 -0500 > > Howard S Shubs wrote: > > > > HSS> You can refer to Pournelle as a computer-illiterate?? I won't say > > HSS> much -for- the man, but I won't say he's clueless. Or at least, not > > HSS> completely. > > > > When his column first appeared in Byte he struck me as nearly completely > > computer illiterate - in fact I thought that was the point of the column, > > a light hearted look at the trials and tribulations of a non expert trying > > to get some use out of computers. I never enjoyed it much. > > I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this monsterous kit > and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically screaming at the pages > to run something more useful on them - like UNIX... Instead he'd fart > around with a zillion TSRs and bitch about his IRQ conflicts... I used to > read Byte for the broad view of the micro industry, but as everything else > did it became PC-centric (understandably, but it sucked just the same). You came to Chaos Manor late then. When I first encountered it he was using an S-100 CompuPro under CP/M. I'm not really clear on why he went to MS-DOS. I suspect he and Xenix would have had a lot of fun together. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:25:43 -0000 Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043015142 26654 80.177.7.220 (19 Jan 2003 22:25:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:25:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!eusc.inter.net!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126970 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:e25f0b.9u3.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to Rupert Pigott : > > I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this monsterous kit > > and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically screaming at the pages > > to run something more useful on them - like UNIX... Instead he'd fart > > around with a zillion TSRs and bitch about his IRQ conflicts... I used to > > read Byte for the broad view of the micro industry, but as everything else > > did it became PC-centric (understandably, but it sucked just the same). > > I witnessed what I think was the tail-end of its transition from "interesting" > to "dull PC-centric" in the late '80s when I started buying it. I persisted > for quite a while because of its reputation, expecting the groovy articles of > legend to eventually resurface but they never did. My personal view is that > the late '80s/early '90s weren't a terribly interesting chapter in computing From my POV the late 80s/90s were *FASCINATING*. Just that you didn't get to see much of the interesting stuff in Byte. Examples : T800 Transputer, RS6000, MIPS R[346]000, DEC Alpha 21064 etc... Lots of nifty stuff. You also had a few interesting big iron toys too like the Cray C90, T3D etc... Cydra, Convex, Multiflow, Apollo (PRISM ?) etc. When I look back on it I actually think that I am glad to have witnessed the 80s and 90s first hand. I could rave on. Cheers, Rupert ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:35:24 +0000 Message-ID: Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jan 2003 23:00:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.134.35 X-Trace: 1043017201 news.gradwell.net 33930 cbh/62.254.134.35 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-peer.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126923 According to Rupert Pigott : > From my POV the late 80s/90s were *FASCINATING*. Just that you > didn't get to see much of the interesting stuff in Byte. Examples : T800 > Transputer, RS6000, MIPS R[346]000, DEC Alpha 21064 etc... Lots > of nifty stuff. You also had a few interesting big iron toys too like the > Cray C90, T3D etc... Cydra, Convex, Multiflow, Apollo (PRISM ?) etc. > > When I look back on it I actually think that I am glad to have witnessed > the 80s and 90s first hand. I'm thinking of about 89 - 91 in particular as being bad years; pre Alpha (or should I say AXP or VAXng?), post the latest round of "big" stuff and nothing outside WinTel being reported in any of the journals. A bit like the popular music scene at the time: good music really _was_ being recorded, it was just difficult to find under all the dross that had a stranglehold back then. I probably also resented the passing of the "home computer" craze of the late '70s and early '80s as I thought that really did have a lot more vitality and diversity than what followed. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Currently playing: Stereolab - "Emperor Tomato Ketchup" ... RIP Mary Hansen. http://www.chrishedley.com My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:38:03 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126982 Chris Hedley wrote: > And Pournelle? I think I viewed him as just another aspect of that era, no > more or less. > Pournelle reinvented himself as dumb. Read early/mid 80s Bytes and he was sharp - he developed software, he understood his CP/M crates, he solved problems. At some point he developed the "love me, I'm dumb" persona - taking 6 months to install Windows 3.1, etc - and seemed to revel in the "...and then I called my son Alex and he fixed all this sh*t - how DARE they sell software that doesn't install on my lashed-up prototype machines full of loaner hardware that I don't want to give back" schtick. Just as unreadable as his later works of fiction. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:42:46 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126985 Chris Hedley wrote: > I'm thinking of about 89 - 91 in particular as being bad years; pre > Alpha (or should I say AXP or VAXng?), post the latest round of "big" > stuff and nothing outside WinTel being reported in any of the journals. > A bit like the popular music scene at the time: good music really _was_ > being recorded, it was just difficult to find under all the dross that > had a stranglehold back then. 88-about 93 were certainly my peak gigging years. Throwing Muses. Pixies. Sundays. Sisters of Mercy. Primitives. Flatmates. Heart Throbs. Wedding Present. Curve. AC Temple. Bongwater. PJ Harvey. Stereolab. James Ray. The Fall. Cud. Loads, loads more. There was usually something worth seeing almost every night in either Leeds, Sheffield or Newcastle. I certainly seemed to be out and about somewhere round the North typically a couple of nights a week - whether that's a function of age (probably 20-25 then) or the fact that music really *was* better back then I don't know! pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 22:49:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.249.134 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043036141 206.246.249.134 (Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:15:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:15:41 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126896 In article <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > When his column first appeared in Byte he struck me as nearly completely > computer illiterate - in fact I thought that was the point of the column, > a light hearted look at the trials and tribulations of a non expert trying > to get some use out of computers. I never enjoyed it much. Pournelle seemed to give up on anything non-mainstream. He would talk about how he wanted to get away from the mainstream (i.e. DOS/Windows) but he never really put any effort into doing so. He still talks about using other systems a little. What always struck me is how he used to write about software which was conducive to writing books, and how bad some ideas were. Yet, he know uses Microsoft Word, one of the worst programs in the world to use if you are trying to WRITE something. Go figure. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 35 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:01:10 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.246.249.134 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043039736 206.246.249.134 (Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:15:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:15:36 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.uchicago.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127033 In article , J Clarke wrote: > > FWIW, did you notice that both the quality of his column and his > productivity as a writer went to Hell right about the time that he > returned the CompuPro to Bill Godbout for an upgrade that apparently > never happened? I think it went down even worse later than that, especially when he moved to the very word processors he said were so bad. There is something else about his writing that has changed, that I don't really have words for. It's just like it is repetive, vanilla, no meat. When I was a kid, I thought his writing was much better, and he also seemed to be more computer literate. > He and Niven used to get out one novel every couple of years, and most > of them were pretty good. He promised that "The Moat Around Murcheson's > Eye" would be finished "real soon now" for at least a couple of years, > and since then their releases have been quite irregular. Murcheson's Eye? I thought it was God's eye... ? > I think he violated one of the cardinal rules of the technician game--if > it ain't broke, don't fix it. His writing system wasn't broke, but he > fixed it anyway and the result appears to have broken _him_. Sounds reasonable. I remember too, getting tired of hearing about his wife's reading software. I also seem to remember he used to be involved more in the science and science fiction world than he is now. ###### Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:38:13 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030120073813.02b509c8.steveo@eircom.net> References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Organization: EuroNet Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 2003 06:41:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.234.208.248 X-Trace: DXC=gDGYGPCfQnC[MN87j[hGFASKYkiiVZ:6OT2jID^G`5bC>Yg?HY;U18IY_QYJZ2REOFeVPUj7a=JNH X-Complaints-To: abuse@euronet.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!maya.euronet.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126971 On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:01:10 -0500 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: CSH> Murcheson's Eye? I thought it was God's eye... ? It's the sequel, it is also crap. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 07:39:55 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: EuroNet Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 2003 06:41:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.234.208.248 X-Trace: DXC=gDGYGPCfQnS6nj`PgFn5aZSKYkiiVZ:6_T2jID^G`5bS>Yg?HY;U18YY_QYJZ2REOVeVPUj7a=JNX X-Complaints-To: abuse@euronet.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!maya.euronet.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126973 On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this RP> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically RP> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like RP> UNIX... ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:04:47 -0000 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com><1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com><2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com><4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043057083 10295 80.177.7.220 (20 Jan 2003 10:04:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:04:43 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126980 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net... > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this > RP> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically > RP> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like > RP> UNIX... > > ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. Probably because he couldn't run his TSRs on it. Or maybe a -11 bit him once. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:33:21 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!telocity-west!DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126978 Howard S Shubs wrote: > In article , > Pete Fenelon wrote: > >> I just wandered over there for the first time in probably a couple of >> years. It *looks* amateurish. And anything that puts an article by that >> shambling computer-illiterate Pournelle top of the contents list really >> must be scraping the barrel. > > You can refer to Pournelle as a computer-illiterate?? I won't say much > -for- the man, but I won't say he's clueless. Or at least, not > completely. I will say that Pournelle deliberately tries to appear clueless. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:37:29 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126977 Howard S Shubs wrote: > don't recall exactly what was said, but it became clear that they knew > exactly what we'all wanted, but were specifically not giving it to us, > because they no longer saw techies as their primary audience. It seemed to become a magazine for Wintel network admins and their concerned managers - was *that* the target audience? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:00:37 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-489.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:126958 In article , shannon@news.widomaker.com says... > In article , J Clarke wrote: > > > > > FWIW, did you notice that both the quality of his column and his > > productivity as a writer went to Hell right about the time that he > > returned the CompuPro to Bill Godbout for an upgrade that apparently > > never happened? > > I think it went down even worse later than that, especially when > he moved to the very word processors he said were so bad. > > There is something else about his writing that has changed, that I don't > really have words for. It's just like it is repetive, vanilla, no meat. > > When I was a kid, I thought his writing was much better, and he also > seemed to be more computer literate. > > > He and Niven used to get out one novel every couple of years, and most > > of them were pretty good. He promised that "The Moat Around Murcheson's > > Eye" would be finished "real soon now" for at least a couple of years, > > and since then their releases have been quite irregular. > > Murcheson's Eye? I thought it was God's eye... ? The Mote in God's Eye was great fun. The sequel, "The Moat Around Murcheson's Eye" (that was the working title--in the US it was released as "The Gripping Hand"), released almost 20 years later, was much less so. > > I think he violated one of the cardinal rules of the technician game--if > > it ain't broke, don't fix it. His writing system wasn't broke, but he > > fixed it anyway and the result appears to have broken _him_. > > Sounds reasonable. I remember too, getting tired of hearing about his > wife's reading software. > > I also seem to remember he used to be involved more in the science and > science fiction world than he is now. > > > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### Message-ID: <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1043101648 12.241.15.59 (Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:27:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:27:28 GMT Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:29:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127206 Roland Hutchinson wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > My undoubtedly fallible recollection is that it was all pretty much > downhill after the Smalltalk issue (August 1981; I just looked it up). > > Of course, one could argue that that issue was so good, there was no > possible direction to go but down thereafter. > > Here's a pretty picture for the kids: > http://nedkonz.dhs.org:8080/Ned/9 > There were several "langauge" issues from August 1977 through August 1984 (?). The Smalltalk cover echoed from a small piece of the Pascal cover of 1979 ("Pascal's Triangle"). The "Isle of Smalltalk" appeared as the only serene place on the Pascal cover., although very aloof. I thought that the 1983 C langauge issue was good too. IIRC, the 1978 issue was for LISP, the 1982 issue was for Logo... IMHO, the "language" issue of BYTE was a *great* idea. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 20 Jan 03 18:54:04 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 46 Message-ID: <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-754.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127231 In article darkboo-remove-this- ng.@hotmail.com (Rupert Pigott) writes: >What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? Both Troff an LaTeX have been >used to format a lot of books (as has Troff for that matter). Oddly >whenever I have handed in LaTeX copy people have asked me how I >got Word to make those documents look so good... All these new- >fangled GUI WP doohickies just encourage people to fiddle with the >appearance rather than concentrate on the *content* of what they are >writing. Back when the most commonly used GUI was still the Mac, someone played on all the Mac product names by coining the term "Macdinking", which referred to the messing about people did with their documents in a WYSIWY(almost)G environment. A study claimed that documents produced on an IBM PC running MS-DOS tended to have more solid content but looked rather plain, while documents produced on Macs tended, as you said, to emphasize style over content. >Sure LaTeX and Troff ain't everyone's cup of tea, but the former is >well known to produce excellent quality output with practically *zero* >layout skills required by the author... That has to be a good thing >having seen the results of people going berzerk with Word and clip-art >libraries day in and day out for the last decade. The results of the >average Word output makes you think that it's *harder* to use than an >editor + formatter + previewer combo. It probably is. But people have so much fun playing with it that they believe it's easier. It's painful to watch such people work; they're constantly moving off the keyboard to the mouse, pushing it around the screen, clicking here, clicking there, going back to type a word or two, then back to the mouse to click on this and that... I have to exercise great self-control to turn my back and walk away. The alternative might start out innocently enough - "Wouldn't you find it easier to do it _this_ way?" - but experience has taught me that this just rubs people's fur backwards and in the worse case can degenerate into a shouting match. It's far better that I just go back to my own machine and grind out my own work three times as fast as these lusers are doing theirs. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 03 11:03:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYkIHd39S7RMUCjRvi7HryHsAuaKjVViwdaM87J/VR+IMOn5CoRNnvN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 2003 11:40:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-225 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127222 In article , Roland Hutchinson wrote: >Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> Back when the most commonly used GUI was still the Mac, someone >> played on all the Mac product names by coining the term >> "Macdinking", which referred to the messing about people did with >> their documents in a WYSIWY(almost)G environment. A study claimed >> that documents produced on an IBM PC running MS-DOS tended to have >> more solid content but looked rather plain, while documents produced >> on Macs tended, as you said, to emphasize style over content. > >FWIW, it was a seriously flawed study. As I recall, it dealt with >college-student writing assignments and did not control adequately for >other difference between the MS-DOS and the Mac groups. I think it >turned out that the two groups could have been largely self-selecting, >for example! > >(This is not to say that macdinking wasn't a problem among college >students! I taught some fairly writing-intensive courses at just about >the height of the "novelty" of WYSIWIG wordprocessing software during >the Win 3.1/Mac System 6 era. Yikes!) > >> It probably is. But people have so much fun playing with it that they >> believe it's easier. It's painful to watch such people work; they're >> constantly moving off the keyboard to the mouse, pushing it around >> the screen, clicking here, clicking there, going back to type a word >> or two, then back to the mouse to click on this and that... I have >> to exercise great self-control to turn my back and walk away. The >> alternative might start out innocently enough - "Wouldn't you find >> it easier to do it _this_ way?" - but experience has taught me that >> this just rubs people's fur backwards and in the worse case can >> degenerate into a shouting match. It's far better that I just go >> back to my own machine and grind out my own work three times as >> fast as these lusers are doing theirs. > >Yes, but there's another study to consider (done or comissioned by >Apple as part of it's UI research, I think): it showed that people who >use the keyboard alone THOUGHT they are getting editing tasks done >faster than they would using the mouse, but they were in fact mistaken. >When the researchers actually measured how fast people did the editing >tasks, using the mouse was usually faster. (The documents being edited >were ordinary English prose, certainly not code, as I recall. The sort >of stuff that most end-users edit in things like term-papers, reports, >and business letters.) What editor were they using? That's the difference. You get a brain-dead editor that insists on typing out everything even if you don't want it will slow any production by 70%. > >The real big win (with respect to time-saving) of things like LaTeX is >of course not that they make individual tasks quicker, but that they >ELIMINATE repetitive formatting tasks altogether, as well as producing >more professional output than the normal MS-Word user can even conceive >of creating. And using a proper editor can also eliminate repetitive keystrokes. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 03 11:05:48 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYDLmiaKfhm2vmA9mC8w+bMC4jhS6pEaKJU6KxCkd5G9h9bXLhKEtJR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 2003 11:42:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-225 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127221 In article , "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >Mensanator wrote: > >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >> >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". > >Right. > >Then. Leave. It. Running. > >Simple. > >:) That's a waste of power. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYwF24Uw1/23pQIHbeB6bVLrQxCnv2+5y4x0xEm+q+3ytdd3vA8eafG X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 2003 13:16:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-79 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127224 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:b0jbnc$rb5$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article , >> "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >> >Mensanator wrote: >> > >> >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >> >> >> >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". >> > >> >Right. >> > >> >Then. Leave. It. Running. >> > >> >Simple. >> > >> >:) >> >> That's a waste of power. > >Oddly PCs *used* to be low power devices - the Amiga A1000 >had a ~85W PSU for example. PCs rarely carried more than a >200W at one stage - that's a *PEAK* output of two whole light >bulbs, whoa boy... But I know you have dutch ancestry, so it >hurts to lose those pennies... It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons of milk. > >Now we have "Green PCs" of course so we can leave them in >vegetable power-saving states - and even have them do it for us >when they are feeling un-loved. As it happens I've actually just >moved my UNIX box from my ancient old not-very-green-m/b >to a AMD K7 board that understands green. I can power it >down the other end of the network cable... If I wired up wake >on LAN and persueded windows to stop broadcasting crap on >the LAN I could probably get it to wake-up again too. In this modern day and age of computers in everything but the kitchen sink, I have a distrust of leaving gear on their own; they don't seem to think very well for themselves. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Kelli Halliburton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com><1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com><2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com><4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Message-ID: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.30.225.74 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr19.news.prodigy.com 1043109125 ST000 67.30.225.74 (Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:32:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:32:05 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: S[OERZWGAJPCR^ARGKFFMAXFQ[UTB_PHCIXN]QQIQIUBTW]CLVSC@EK[F\]NHVKHGNDWJC^M@NXT_G[BXVTCNVLGTNVUX_DIHX[@SS[@EDQHA@L\[S@FX__AGLE]JJ^MBDX]ZCZLPQ^UGDOS@\\INHK_@S^@FVWH^YXS@MCB[[AXAQLDYLBJ]\LD]NVOPTBM Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:32:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr19.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!7115ad8a!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127253 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this >> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically >> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like >> UNIX... > > ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. Crptc cmd ln? :) No intergrated word processing program? For an author, that would be a serious problem. Editing a book in vi and then having to go back and troff it to give it any decent formatting is probably more steps than he wanted to go to. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:38:53 -0000 Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com><1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com><2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com><4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043113132 20107 80.177.7.220 (21 Jan 2003 01:38:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:38:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!213.253.16.105.MISMATCH!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127243 "Kelli Halliburton" wrote in message news:9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com... > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 > > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > > >> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this > >> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically > >> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like > >> UNIX... > > > > ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. > > Crptc cmd ln? :) > > No intergrated word processing program? For an author, that would be a > serious problem. Editing a book in vi and then having to go back and troff > it to give it any decent formatting is probably more steps than he wanted to > go to. Troff ? What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? Both Troff an LaTeX have been used to format a lot of books (as has Troff for that matter). Oddly whenever I have handed in LaTeX copy people have asked me how I got Word to make those documents look so good... All these new- fangled GUI WP doohickies just encourage people to fiddle with the appearance rather than concentrate on the *content* of what they are writing. Sure LaTeX and Troff ain't everyone's cup of tea, but the former is well known to produce excellent quality output with practically *zero* layout skills required by the author... That has to be a good thing having seen the results of people going berzerk with Word and clip-art libraries day in and day out for the last decade. The results of the average Word output makes you think that it's *harder* to use than an editor + formatter + previewer combo. Cheers, Rupert ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:41:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1043113265 24.71.223.147 (Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:41:05 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:41:05 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!news-xfer.cox.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127261 On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:32:05 GMT, "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> >>> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this >>> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically >>> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like >>> UNIX... >> >> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. > >Crptc cmd ln? :) > >No intergrated word processing program? For an author, that would be a >serious problem. Editing a book in vi and then having to go back and troff >it to give it any decent formatting is probably more steps than he wanted to >go to. From what I've read by authors about word processing, they don't care about formatting; they want: "don't get in my way" entry, and easy ways to edit groups of words (sentences, paragraphs). Authors seemed to like WordStar and XyWrite: the latter normally because they had been journalists using Atex? equipment. I suspect they would prefer Emacs over vi. And I am a vim user, so that is not my own preference. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:37:02 -0700 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.com (198.31.26.33) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043116623 27038776 198.31.26.33 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127255 Brian Inglis wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:32:05 GMT, "Kelli Halliburton" > wrote: > > From what I've read by authors about word processing, they don't > care about formatting; they want: "don't get in my way" entry, > and easy ways to edit groups of words (sentences, paragraphs). > Authors seemed to like WordStar and XyWrite: the latter normally > because they had been journalists using Atex? equipment. > I suspect they would prefer Emacs over vi. And I am a vim user, > so that is not my own preference. May I now start ranting about the editors supplied with these modernish IDEs? :-) ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 54 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:43:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1043117009 24.71.223.147 (Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:43:29 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:43:29 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!63.210.96.66.MISMATCH!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127258 On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:38:53 -0000, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >"Kelli Halliburton" wrote in message >news:9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com... >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 >> > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> > >> >> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this >> >> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically >> >> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like >> >> UNIX... >> > >> > ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >> >> Crptc cmd ln? :) >> >> No intergrated word processing program? For an author, that would be a >> serious problem. Editing a book in vi and then having to go back and troff >> it to give it any decent formatting is probably more steps than he wanted >to >> go to. > >Troff ? > >What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? Both Troff an LaTeX have been >used to format a lot of books (as has Troff for that matter). Oddly >whenever I have handed in LaTeX copy people have asked me how I >got Word to make those documents look so good... All these new- >fangled GUI WP doohickies just encourage people to fiddle with the >appearance rather than concentrate on the *content* of what they are >writing. > >Sure LaTeX and Troff ain't everyone's cup of tea, but the former is well >known to produce excellent quality output with practically *zero* layout >skills required by the author... That has to be a good thing having seen the >results of people going berzerk with Word and clip-art libraries day in >and day out for the last decade. The results of the average Word output >makes you think that it's *harder* to use than an editor + formatter + >previewer combo. Harder to use well, unless you learn enough to set up and use styles consistently: the Word defaults are not great; most people seem to just format chunks of paragraphs manually. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 02:51:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1043117518 24.71.223.147 (Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:51:58 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:51:58 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!prodigy.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127214 On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:37:02 -0700, lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) wrote: >Brian Inglis wrote: > >> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:32:05 GMT, "Kelli Halliburton" >> wrote: >> >> From what I've read by authors about word processing, they don't >> care about formatting; they want: "don't get in my way" entry, >> and easy ways to edit groups of words (sentences, paragraphs). >> Authors seemed to like WordStar and XyWrite: the latter normally >> because they had been journalists using Atex? equipment. >> I suspect they would prefer Emacs over vi. And I am a vim user, >> so that is not my own preference. > >May I now start ranting about the editors supplied with these modernish >IDEs? :-) You can normally change the default editor to your preference, and if you can't, you can normally set up a good editor to be your IDE. I don't get as much out of an IDE as I can get out of using {r,sc}cs, tags, make, grep output in an editor window, and a debugger session in a separate window. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 06:37:20 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 2003 06:24:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1385.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=FO@;YF_FFPXb;\Pb=YekO_1`\LnN2UYYQMcQ>JIA wrote: RP> Troff ? RP> RP> What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? It's too damned verbose next to troff :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Lines: 24 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mensanator@aol.com (Mensanator) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 21 Jan 2003 05:52:35 GMT References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127228 >Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... >From: Steve O'Hara-Smith steveo@eircom.net >Date: 1/20/2003 12:39 AM Central Standard Time >Message-id: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> > >On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 >"Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >RP> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this >RP> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically >RP> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like >RP> UNIX... > > ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". > >-- >C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors >The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun >You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: > | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Kelli Halliburton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.30.222.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr19.news.prodigy.com 1043137116 ST000 67.30.222.209 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:18:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:18:36 EST Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: OP[ABTWGLBTQG[M\[KCX]ODDSCVLSRLIQQ]TMV]KHASZEQUC\NS[AAG[WDZZXQ[KZFF]ZDJLNFZPNHGBYFWG^Q\D@VUOITLIG@\TB_WCJ\UT@M@\@KCBITWAM\DE[DJMFLXMKHRL]Y^KFJSSOT]M^O__ZK^HWQGKEQYGQLOA_SARQVXEQ\BLL]LGR^RAQPJN Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:18:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!news-xfer.cox.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr19.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!7115ad8a!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127260 Mensanator wrote: >> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. > > Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". Right. Then. Leave. It. Running. Simple. :) ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:27:00 -0000 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043148463 25462 80.177.7.220 (21 Jan 2003 11:27:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:27:43 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127247 "Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message news:b0ik56$nc3eh$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... > The real big win (with respect to time-saving) of things like LaTeX is > of course not that they make individual tasks quicker, but that they > ELIMINATE repetitive formatting tasks altogether, as well as producing That's what a WP should do IMHO, afterall computers are good at dumb repetitive tasks, people are not. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:28:28 -0000 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com><1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com><2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com><4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net><20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net><9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043148551 10133 80.177.7.220 (21 Jan 2003 11:29:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:29:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127241 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net... > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:38:53 -0000 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> Troff ? > RP> > RP> What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? > > It's too damned verbose next to troff :) Err, but with Troff you need a dinky little command thing every bloody line pretty much, with LaTeX you don't. :) Ooooh, this could be my first TROFF vs LaTeX flamewar. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:30:28 -0000 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043148673 10348 80.177.7.220 (21 Jan 2003 11:31:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:31:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127237 "Mensanator" wrote in message news:20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com... > >Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... > >From: Steve O'Hara-Smith steveo@eircom.net > >Date: 1/20/2003 12:39 AM Central Standard Time > >Message-id: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> > > > >On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 > >"Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > > >RP> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this > >RP> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically > >RP> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like > >RP> UNIX... > > > > ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. > > Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". Well the point with UNIX is that you don't need to reboot it every 30 seconds, but I suppose that an MS-DOS addict wouldn't know that such systems existed. To be fair I don't think any UNIXen started out bullet proof and I imagine that when he was pissing around with TSRs some of the UNIXen were pretty hairy still. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:53:10 -0000 Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043150033 15992 80.177.7.220 (21 Jan 2003 11:53:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:53:53 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!peernews.cix.co.uk!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127248 wrote in message news:b0jbnc$rb5$5@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: > >Mensanator wrote: > > > >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. > >> > >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". > > > >Right. > > > >Then. Leave. It. Running. > > > >Simple. > > > >:) > > That's a waste of power. Oddly PCs *used* to be low power devices - the Amiga A1000 had a ~85W PSU for example. PCs rarely carried more than a 200W at one stage - that's a *PEAK* output of two whole light bulbs, whoa boy... But I know you have dutch ancestry, so it hurts to lose those pennies... Now we have "Green PCs" of course so we can leave them in vegetable power-saving states - and even have them do it for us when they are feeling un-loved. As it happens I've actually just moved my UNIX box from my ancient old not-very-green-m/b to a AMD K7 board that understands green. I can power it down the other end of the network cable... If I wired up wake on LAN and persueded windows to stop broadcasting crap on the LAN I could probably get it to wake-up again too. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:55:29 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!newsfeed.online.be!64.154.60.99.MISMATCH!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!telocity-west!DIRECTV!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127244 Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > news:20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net... >> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:38:53 -0000 >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> >> RP> Troff ? >> RP> >> RP> What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? >> >> It's too damned verbose next to troff :) > > Err, but with Troff you need a dinky little command thing every bloody > line pretty much, with LaTeX you don't. :) > > Ooooh, this could be my first TROFF vs LaTeX flamewar. :) > Depends. With -ms (or -mm, -me or a similar macro package) a simple document was pretty easy to put together. My fingers still itch to type .TL, .AU, .AB/.AE, .NH, .PP and friends whenever I'm writing a document - in fact, if you look at my early Word docs from about '92-3, they were pretty much the names of my styles ;) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Message-ID: <3e2d4aa1$0$221$4d4eb98e@read-nat.news.uk.uu.net> From: Asher Hoskins Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.5-RELEASE (i386)) Date: 21 Jan 2003 13:26:57 GMT Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: gw-cro01.pgb.philips.com X-Trace: 1043155617 read-nat.news.uk.uu.net 221 194.201.166.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!uucp.muenster.de!dnewsfeed02.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed01.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed03.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!read-nat.news.uk.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127263 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > ...who were all, as far as I know, forced to leave because their content > was no longer acceptable. Steve formed his own magazine, which was > still selling last time I was looking for it. Circuit Cellar, Ink or > something like that. "Circuit Cellar". Info from http://www.circuitcellar.com/. A splendid magazine. By focussing on microcontrollers, embedded systems and the like it has some of the feel of the 80's computer magazines where one actually had to care about the efficiency of applications and not just bung more processing power at problems. Asher, looking at the copy on his desk. -- asher http://domestic1.sjc.ox.ac.uk/~ahoskins/ asher AT crumbly DOT [life in plastic, it's fantastic!] freeserve DOT co DOT uk ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 21 Jan 03 09:50:02 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <899.151T116T5903453@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-636.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-out.newsfeeds.com!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127308 In article my_spamtrap@eudoramail.com (Roland Hutchinson) writes: >Lars Duening wrote: > >> May I now start ranting about the editors supplied with these >> modernish IDEs? :-) > >By all means! > >And crosspost to alt.religion.emacs while you're at it, why don't >you? > >(I didn't say that. I really didn't say that. REALLY.) Emacs? We don't need no steenkin' Emacs! And I have yet to find a Windoze IDE that would let me use CygnusEd on my Amiga as an editor. But I _like_ makefiles. I only wish that I had a stand-alone symbolic debugger, like the one that came with my ancient MS-DOS Lattice compiler. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 21 Jan 03 09:58:36 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-637.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127311 In article kelli217@crosswinds.not (Kelli Halliburton) writes: >Mensanator wrote: > >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >> >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". > >Right. Funny how people complain about the time it takes Unix to boot, yet they'll sit patiently when Windoze takes at least as long. >Then. Leave. It. Running. > >Simple. That's not an option with Windoze. >:) Got your nose. :-) -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID:
References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1fozdcb.1uyv7rh1ekdw6qN%lars@bearnip.com> Lines: 26 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 08:27:57 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.73 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1043168075 205.206.39.73 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:54:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:54:35 EST Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127302 In article <1fozdcb.1uyv7rh1ekdw6qNars@bearnip.com>, lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) wrote: >Howard S Shubs wrote: > >> In article , >> Pete Fenelon wrote: >> >> > It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I >> > started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra >> > Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... >> >> Yeah, and the editors knew it. They also knew what was desired by the >> technical people who used to read the magazine, and specifically changed >> it. More info on this if anyone is interested. > >I'm all ears! (or should that be 'eyes'?) > >My guess would be that techies are usually not the ones controlling the >budget, and that the editors changed Byte to address those who do. But >since I haven't read Byte in decades, that's just speculation. BTW what happened to Unix Review, which I think was going to wintel itself into Performance Computing and then ... ??? Regards. Mel. ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <8seX9.410494$F2h1.371457@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:21:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.42.151.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1043166084 24.42.151.189 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:21:24 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:21:24 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!newsfeed.online.be!cyclone.bc.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127310 "Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message news:b0ik56$nc3eh$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... > [snip re study of efficiency of mouse driven vs. keyboard editing] > > Yes, but there's another study to consider (done or comissioned by > Apple as part of it's UI research, I think): it showed that people who > use the keyboard alone THOUGHT they are getting editing tasks > done faster than they would using the mouse, but they were in fact > mistaken.When the researchers actually measured how fast people > did the editing tasks, using the mouse was usually faster. (The > documents being edited were ordinary English prose, certainly > not code, as I recall. The sort of stuff that most end-users edit > in things like term-papers, reports, and business letters.) > What do you expect an Apple Mac study to find? Much of the keyboarding efficiency comes from having and using keyboard shortcuts, where keyboard does not include function keys. Early editors / word processors (used in the Apple study?) used function keys, and I had to stop and look to find them. A lot of keyboard operations are based on mouse actions. For example, to do a file operation, press F, then to save press S (the menu also indicates that the save can be done by pressing S). The information is on the menus all you have to do is move your eyes from the text to the menu bar, much quicker than moving your hands. Keeping you hands on the keys is a huge win. ---Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. ###### Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:23:18 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030121192318.6ff1ae83.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 2003 19:31:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3908.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=6IbW;h=bX4aM1`\LnN2UYYAa];Aj6=61KMQO^TPok^^GObbNNjO:G[UBICcI?CPXS3H X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127317 On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:28:28 -0000 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message RP> news:20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net... RP> > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:38:53 -0000 RP> > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> > RP> > RP> Troff ? RP> > RP> RP> > RP> What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? RP> > RP> > It's too damned verbose next to troff :) RP> RP> Err, but with Troff you need a dinky little command thing every bloody RP> line pretty much, with LaTeX you don't. :) Nah my CV has about 50 lines with a leading . and 250 without. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:58:42 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3E2D9862.4010605@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127285 Mensanator wrote: > Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". I guess he still must boot DOS too! Ben. ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 19:24:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4bb86b4c43dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.33) Organization: None Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust191.tnt1.lnd9.uk.uudial.net X-Trace: 1043178378 news.dial.pipex.com 230 62.188.100.191 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!uucp.muenster.de!dnewsfeed02.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed00.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed03.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127323 In article <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > I thought that the 1983 C langauge issue was good too. IIRC, > the 1978 issue was for LISP, the 1982 issue was for Logo... > IMHO, the "language" issue of BYTE was a *great* idea. They had one devoted to the 68000 during the mid 1980s as well. Did they have any other issues where they focused on a type of processor? Dave Daniels ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 21 Jan 2003 19:54:43 GMT Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-190-214.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1043178883 news.dial.pipex.com 231 62.241.190.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!uucp.muenster.de!dnewsfeed03.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed00.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed03.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127291 On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >of milk. Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. It makes a change for something to be cheaper over here :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb45@dial.pipex.com **Remove the digits from email address** The future was never like this! ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:28:29 -0600 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 21 Message-ID: <06br2v4fntikiqvr2iborg5q3ghk738ubq@4ax.com> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr217.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1043180923 17033 209.100.226.217 (21 Jan 2003 20:28:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:28:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127334 On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:53:10 -0000, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >Now we have "Green PCs" of course so we can leave them in >vegetable power-saving states - and even have them do it for us >when they are feeling un-loved. As it happens I've actually just >moved my UNIX box from my ancient old not-very-green-m/b >to a AMD K7 board that understands green. I can power it >down the other end of the network cable... If I wired up wake >on LAN and persueded windows to stop broadcasting crap on >the LAN I could probably get it to wake-up again too. I would have thought that Wake On Lan would ignore all forms of broadcast packets, otherwise, what's the point of even having it? -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:42:55 +0000 Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043181775 3586 80.177.21.188 (21 Jan 2003 20:42:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:42:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.sovam.com!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127338 On 20 Jan 03 18:54:04 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article darkboo-remove-this- >ng.@hotmail.com (Rupert Pigott) writes: > >>What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? Both Troff an LaTeX have been >>used to format a lot of books (as has Troff for that matter). Oddly >>whenever I have handed in LaTeX copy people have asked me how I >>got Word to make those documents look so good... All these new- >>fangled GUI WP doohickies just encourage people to fiddle with the >>appearance rather than concentrate on the *content* of what they are >>writing. > >Back when the most commonly used GUI was still the Mac, someone >played on all the Mac product names by coining the term >"Macdinking", which referred to the messing about people did with >their documents in a WYSIWY(almost)G environment. A study claimed >that documents produced on an IBM PC running MS-DOS tended to have >more solid content but looked rather plain, while documents produced >on Macs tended, as you said, to emphasize style over content. > >>Sure LaTeX and Troff ain't everyone's cup of tea, but the former is >>well known to produce excellent quality output with practically *zero* >>layout skills required by the author... That has to be a good thing >>having seen the results of people going berzerk with Word and clip-art >>libraries day in and day out for the last decade. The results of the >>average Word output makes you think that it's *harder* to use than an >>editor + formatter + previewer combo. > >It probably is. But people have so much fun playing with it that they >believe it's easier. It's painful to watch such people work; they're >constantly moving off the keyboard to the mouse, pushing it around >the screen, clicking here, clicking there, going back to type a word >or two, then back to the mouse to click on this and that... I have >to exercise great self-control to turn my back and walk away. The >alternative might start out innocently enough - "Wouldn't you find >it easier to do it _this_ way?" - but experience has taught me that >this just rubs people's fur backwards and in the worse case can >degenerate into a shouting match. It's far better that I just go >back to my own machine and grind out my own work three times as >fast as these lusers are doing theirs. Do you do three times the work or the same work with a third of the effort? I suspect the former and then you're carrying the lusers. Have I been there..... Steve. ###### Message-ID: <3E2DB1A3.AF34D6F8@thinkage.ca> From: "Alan T. Bowler" Organization: Thinkage Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com><1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com><2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com><4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:46:27 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.102.11.4 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1043181986 192.102.11.4 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:46:26 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:46:26 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127288 Rupert Pigott wrote: > The results of the average Word output > makes you think that it's *harder* to use than an editor + formatter + > previewer combo. I for one find using the "what you see is all you get" (like Word) systems much harder then a text editor + formatter. ###### From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:47:04 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3E2DB1C8.2070807@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net> <4bb86b4c43dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127287 Dave Daniels wrote: > They had one devoted to the 68000 during the mid 1980s as well. > Did they have any other issues where they focused on a type of > processor? The Latest PC's and windows/dos software all the time. :) Hardware hacking really died with the 386 era, because at that time you only closed source hardware and software. Ben. PS Some say Bill made $$$ on windows, I say it was the mice instead! ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:51:56 +0000 Lines: 66 Message-ID: <3fcr2v8a8gjlfh30q4c5dvkp591d4itp06@4ax.com> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043182319 3586 80.177.21.188 (21 Jan 2003 20:51:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:51:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127324 On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> wrote in message news:b0jbnc$rb5$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >>> In article , >>> "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >>> >Mensanator wrote: >>> > >>> >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >>> >> >>> >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". >>> > >>> >Right. >>> > >>> >Then. Leave. It. Running. >>> > >>> >Simple. >>> > >>> >:) >>> >>> That's a waste of power. >> >>Oddly PCs *used* to be low power devices - the Amiga A1000 >>had a ~85W PSU for example. PCs rarely carried more than a >>200W at one stage - that's a *PEAK* output of two whole light >>bulbs, whoa boy... But I know you have dutch ancestry, so it >>hurts to lose those pennies... > >It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >of milk. > Are you planning a bath? But then asses milk is dearer. :-):-):-) [ and Hawk I really *need* your hiding place now ] Steve. >> >>Now we have "Green PCs" of course so we can leave them in >>vegetable power-saving states - and even have them do it for us >>when they are feeling un-loved. As it happens I've actually just >>moved my UNIX box from my ancient old not-very-green-m/b >>to a AMD K7 board that understands green. I can power it >>down the other end of the network cable... If I wired up wake >>on LAN and persueded windows to stop broadcasting crap on >>the LAN I could probably get it to wake-up again too. I'm looking at building a mini-itx PC which only uses 55W flat out. I can't decide whether to build it as a DVD player and general PC or just to make it do DNS and network services. They can be made fanless and so quiet so I could leave it on all of the time. Steve. > >In this modern day and age of computers in everything but >the kitchen sink, I have a distrust of leaving gear on their >own; they don't seem to think very well for themselves. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:53:16 +0000 Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043182396 3586 80.177.21.188 (21 Jan 2003 20:53:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:53:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127281 On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:49:44 -0500, Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Didn't he have a close friend who would proof his technical detail >> for accuracy? When that friend died, so went the sanity check. > >Now that you mention it, I do remember something about an associate of >his dying. > IIRC his name was something along the lines of 'my mad friend McLean' Steve. >It's been so long since I bothered reading Byte. > >I could read the web site I guess, but I doubt it's any good. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:16:30 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> <899.151T116T5903453@kltpzyxm.invalid> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127316 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > But I _like_ makefiles. I only wish that I had a stand-alone We're a dying breed. We used to ship GNU Make (with sources, so don't worry) with some of our embedded products that were hosted on Windows so that users could build examples the way we did. Turned out that modern users just don't know, understand or like make - we had to revert to batch files. Most of them these days, of course, rarely see a command line - the IDE shields them from it all. It's worrying how many less experienced embedded developers have no clear idea of the different passes of a compiler, the workings of a linker, how object files and executable images are built... I've even seen some who didn't clearly understand the difference between a compiler and an interpreter. I assume things are even worse in mainstream IT. Fortunately I work in a strange middle ground that's half deeply-embedded and baby micros and half Unix and networking - I miss out on all the "commercial" stuff ;) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:26:37 -0600 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr217.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1043184411 18149 209.100.226.217 (21 Jan 2003 21:26:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:26:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127326 On 21 Jan 2003 19:54:43 GMT, stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >>my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >>of milk. > >Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost >me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. >It makes a change for something to be cheaper over here :-) In the Chicago, IL, USA area, for residental service: The first 400 kWh are billed at $8.275 / 100 and after that $6.20 / 100 (from a November bill) plus all the assorted taxes. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### Message-ID: <3E2DB7A3.C0F8226C@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> <899.151T116T5903453@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:27:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.176.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1043184423 12.90.176.24 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:27:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:27:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127274 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > ... snip ... > > Emacs? We don't need no steenkin' Emacs! And I have yet to > find a Windoze IDE that would let me use CygnusEd on my Amiga > as an editor. But I _like_ makefiles. I only wish that I had > a stand-alone symbolic debugger, like the one that came with > my ancient MS-DOS Lattice compiler. [1] c:\dnld\scratch>dir x:\symdeb.exe;mapsym.exe Volume in drive X is WD30-PRI41 Serial number is 3CE4:239B Directory of X:\symdeb.exe;mapsym.exe 10-16-85 4:00 18,028 MAPSYM.EXE 10-16-85 4:00 37,023 SYMDEB.EXE 55,051 bytes in 2 files and 0 dirs 61,440 bytes allocated -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <3E2DB96E.FC7BC40E@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <3E2D9862.4010605@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:27:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.176.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1043184425 12.90.176.24 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:27:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:27:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn12feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127282 bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Mensanator wrote: > > > Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". > > I guess he still must boot DOS too! In those days DOS booted much faster than UNIX, and cost a lot less too. There was no Linux. Until the late '80s there was no such thing as a practical Unix for PCs and those required at least a 286. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <3E2DC3D3.2AC6848E@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> <899.151T116T5903453@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1043187444 12.90.167.29 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127276 Pete Fenelon wrote: > Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > > But I _like_ makefiles. I only wish that I had a stand-alone > > We're a dying breed. We used to ship GNU Make (with sources, so > don't worry) with some of our embedded products that were hosted > on Windows so that users could build examples the way we did. > Turned out that modern users just don't know, understand or like > make - we had to revert to batch files. > > Most of them these days, of course, rarely see a command line - > the IDE shields them from it all. It's worrying how many less > experienced embedded developers have no clear idea of the > different passes of a compiler, the workings of a linker, how > object files and executable images are built... I've even seen > some who didn't clearly understand the difference between a > compiler and an interpreter. My windows boxes are always trained to bring up a command prompt window in the startup directory. It uses 4dos, if possible, and thus aliases (otherwise a herd of batch files is often needed) and remains until shutdown time. The aliases launch most other systems and the result is that I very rarely resort to the Start menu. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <3E2DC4F6.65190CFF@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.29 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1043187446 12.90.167.29 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 22:17:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127278 Stan Barr wrote: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > >It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on > >my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons > >of milk. > > Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would > cost me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. > It makes a change for something to be cheaper over here :-) In Connecticut power costs about 0.14 per KWH. Are you sure you haven't dropped an order of magnitude? Even Hydro-Quebec charges more than your number. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Lines: 25 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: rsclient@aol.com (Rsclient) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 21 Jan 2003 22:54:04 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler (Queue Name: gng-fe) Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127304 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix writes: >> It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I >> started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra >> Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... > >...who were all, as far as I know, forced to leave because their content >was no longer acceptable. Steve formed his own magazine, which was >still selling last time I was looking for it. Circuit Cellar, Ink or >something like that. > > But the real problem isn't that Byte turned to mush -- but that all of the computing world turned dull, too. I've wondered whether there's a sort of 'cambrian explosion' thing going on -- first computers are all different and wierd, and as time goes by one or two archetypes start to dominate, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for random reasons. Even worse, nowadays no computer architecture will be accepted on the desktop if it doesn't run Microsoft's office programs. Goodbye, neat new chips, and neat new hardware. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 22 Jan 2003 01:00:39 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 32 Message-ID: <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1043193639 381 10.0.3.2 (22 Jan 2003 00:00:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2003 00:00:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127344 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > kelli217@crosswinds.not (Kelli Halliburton) writes: > > >Mensanator wrote: > > > >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". > > > >Right. > > Funny how people complain about the time it takes Unix to boot, > yet they'll sit patiently when Windoze takes at least as long. Pournelle did his "tried Unix and disliked it" thing in the 1980s. That was 80286 (or even 8088?) with MS-DOS (2.x or 3.x). Windows was just some obscure thing in BGs mental landscape. PC Unix was Xenix, which took hellisch long to boot compared with MS-DOS. And it did not even know about using cursor keys. Not even vi, just ed as editor. For "computer get out of the way" writers, who just wanted their text an nothing else, DOS was way better. CP/M was even better still (same abilities for less work). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 03 10:34:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbVZpp5jwDInD/4bL7mbeSH3014EuEcwzRrIwKS4TPzzfYcC/uERto9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2003 11:11:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!199.184.165.233!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-167 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127353 In article , stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >>my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >>of milk. > >Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost >me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. >It makes a change for something to be cheaper over here :-) It's not the rate that's expensive; it's all the added-on stuff mandated by the politicians, I think. Like the telephone unservice, I've lost track of all the add-on charges. I'm still paying the fuel surcharge that got added during the oil crisis in the 70s. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 03 10:40:45 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <3fcr2v8a8gjlfh30q4c5dvkp591d4itp06@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYWONK8EpEBy/noAktiZBaFSp2pz6FMLcAtgapI87FI0IGJQ4o4pX3H X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2003 11:17:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-167 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127359 In article <3fcr2v8a8gjlfh30q4c5dvkp591d4itp06@4ax.com>, Steve Burton wrote: >On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article , >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >>> wrote in message news:b0jbnc$rb5$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >>>> In article , >>>> "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >>>> >Mensanator wrote: >>>> > >>>> >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >>>> >> >>>> >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". >>>> > >>>> >Right. >>>> > >>>> >Then. Leave. It. Running. >>>> > >>>> >Simple. >>>> > >>>> >:) >>>> >>>> That's a waste of power. >>> >>>Oddly PCs *used* to be low power devices - the Amiga A1000 >>>had a ~85W PSU for example. PCs rarely carried more than a >>>200W at one stage - that's a *PEAK* output of two whole light >>>bulbs, whoa boy... But I know you have dutch ancestry, so it >>>hurts to lose those pennies... >> >>It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >>my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >>of milk. >> >Are you planning a bath? But then asses milk is dearer. > >:-):-):-) Bath? Yuckaroo. One of the joys of growing up was to not have to endure a Saturday night bath. I've never milked an ass, so I don't know how dear it is. > >[ and Hawk I really *need* your hiding place now ] He's got a good one and it must be well-stocked since he's been able to survive for weeks without a post. >>>Now we have "Green PCs" of course so we can leave them in >>>vegetable power-saving states - and even have them do it for us >>>when they are feeling un-loved. As it happens I've actually just >>>moved my UNIX box from my ancient old not-very-green-m/b >>>to a AMD K7 board that understands green. I can power it >>>down the other end of the network cable... If I wired up wake >>>on LAN and persueded windows to stop broadcasting crap on >>>the LAN I could probably get it to wake-up again too. > >I'm looking at building a mini-itx PC which only uses 55W flat out. I >can't decide whether to build it as a DVD player and general PC or >just to make it do DNS and network services. They can be made fanless >and so quiet so I could leave it on all of the time. You don't want any fans waving at you? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3E2DF1EE.2040304@att.net> From: jim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020830 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:18:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.87.132.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1043198286 12.87.132.113 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:18:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 01:18:06 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127399 Neil Franklin wrote: > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > > >>kelli217@crosswinds.not (Kelli Halliburton) writes: >> >> >>>Mensanator wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". >>> >>>Right. >> >>Funny how people complain about the time it takes Unix to boot, >>yet they'll sit patiently when Windoze takes at least as long. > > > Pournelle did his "tried Unix and disliked it" thing in the 1980s. > > That was 80286 (or even 8088?) with MS-DOS (2.x or 3.x). Windows > was just some obscure thing in BGs mental landscape. > > PC Unix was Xenix, which took hellisch long to boot compared with > MS-DOS. And it did not even know about using cursor keys. Not even vi, > just ed as editor. > > For "computer get out of the way" writers, who just wanted their > text an nothing else, DOS was way better. CP/M was even better still > (same abilities for less work). > > > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith > - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware > code generates the software, have you coded today? The Altos 586 used an 8086 ca 1981. It had vi, troff and about anything (command line) that I use now. Except for Perl or Expect of course. It was running Xenix and booted quite quickly, certainly an order of magnitude faster than the Windows 2000 on my wife's machine. Oh, and the arrow keys worked for vi. Jim ###### Message-ID: <3E2DFE95.8C8E7388@caloundra.qld.gov.au> From: Bernie Dwyer Organization: Very Little X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> <20030120073813.02b509c8.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:14:45 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.52.54.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 1043201564 203.52.54.194 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:12:44 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:12:44 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!news.cse.sc.edu!news.sprintnetops.net!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127377 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:01:10 -0500 > Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > > CSH> Murcheson's Eye? I thought it was God's eye... ? > > It's the sequel, it is also crap. > > -- > C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors > The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun > You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: > | http://www.sohara.org/ -- Oi! It's not crap - it's just not as good as its predecessor. Bernie Dwyer Dump the z to reply to me ***************************** ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:10:26 +0000 Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net> <4bb86b4c43dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Reply-To: Ben Hutchings NNTP-Posting-Host: pc5-cmbg1-6-cust149.cmbg.cable.ntl.com (80.4.127.149) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043205304 28157593 80.4.127.149 (16 [70929]) X-Orig-Path: 192.168.1.1!nobody User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pc5-cmbg1-6-cust149.cmbg.cable.ntl.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127345 In article <4bb86b4c43dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels wrote: > In article <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: >> I thought that the 1983 C langauge issue was good too. IIRC, >> the 1978 issue was for LISP, the 1982 issue was for Logo... > >> IMHO, the "language" issue of BYTE was a *great* idea. > > They had one devoted to the 68000 during the mid 1980s as well. > Did they have any other issues where they focused on a type of > processor? The PowerPC, August 1993. ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:19:45 +0000 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Reply-To: Ben Hutchings NNTP-Posting-Host: pc5-cmbg1-6-cust149.cmbg.cable.ntl.com (80.4.127.149) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043206205 27688917 80.4.127.149 (16 [70929]) X-Orig-Path: 192.168.1.1!nobody User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!news.stupi.se!news.stupi.se!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pc5-cmbg1-6-cust149.cmbg.cable.ntl.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127346 In article , Stan Barr wrote: > On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >>my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >>of milk. > > Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost > me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. > It makes a change for something to be cheaper over here :-) Are you sure you're not looking at the night rate? (For those not resident in Britain - we normally get charged much less for power consumed during a 7-hour period each night, as there is so much spare generating capacity then.) Electricity is quite cheap here at the moment though, as deregulation seems to be resulting in strong competition at the moment. -- Ben Hutchings | personal web site: http://womble.decadentplace.org.uk/ Every program is either trivial or else contains at least one bug ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 21:19:33 -0700 Lines: 44 Message-ID: <1fp5kyk.fay9oucgtfs8N%lars@bearnip.com> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.com (198.31.26.33) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043209174 28230086 198.31.26.33 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127395 Brian Inglis wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 19:37:02 -0700, lars@bearnip.com (Lars > Duening) wrote: > > >Brian Inglis wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:32:05 GMT, "Kelli Halliburton" > >> wrote: > >> > >> From what I've read by authors about word processing, they don't > >> care about formatting; they want: "don't get in my way" entry, > >> and easy ways to edit groups of words (sentences, paragraphs). > >> Authors seemed to like WordStar and XyWrite: the latter normally > >> because they had been journalists using Atex? equipment. > >> I suspect they would prefer Emacs over vi. And I am a vim user, > >> so that is not my own preference. > > > >May I now start ranting about the editors supplied with these modernish > >IDEs? :-) > > You can normally change the default editor to your preference, > and if you can't, you can normally set up a good editor to be > your IDE. Not the IDEs I had the *cough* pleasure to work with. Which would be part #1: having no escape. But what really annoys me is that these integrated editors have all kinds of bells and whistles (which indeed sometimes come in handy), but consequently fall short on the editing side. You might think that the editor programmers would know their audience, and that this audience is not afraid of learning cryptic key commands if it helps getting the job done faster. But no, instead of 'dd' to delete a line (Emacsiados are free to substitute their version here) you have to move the cursor the first column of the line, select the line, 'cut' it, and then move cursor back to your original column. A simple '1,$s/wibble/womble/g' is not possible; no, it has to be dialog. Multiple clip buffers? Displaying files side by side? Inserting the output from shell commands? And the list goes on. I would be happier about having IDEs (especially with todays languages for which grep, make and friends are no longer sufficient) if they actually emphasized the Development part over the Gizmos. but... well. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Hamblen Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <3E2DC4F6.65190CFF@yahoo.com> Organization: Utterly Disorganized User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Lines: 12 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 04:56:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.80.159.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1043211379 216.80.159.125 (Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:56:19 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:56:19 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127354 In article <3E2DC4F6.65190CFF@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: > > In Connecticut power costs about 0.14 per KWH. Are you sure you > haven't dropped an order of magnitude? Even Hydro-Quebec charges > more than your number. > Nashville Electric Service (buys power from TVA) charges $0.065 per kilowatt-hour. New England utilities used to have the highest rates, although I think California utilities now do, since the state government had the foresight to purchase long-term contracts at the highest possible rates. ###### Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 07:11:13 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030122071113.1b812061.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2003 06:14:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p2311.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=[PJKb0=cX@<3:nI?fU;l?91`\LnN2UYY1GeJk;=6^XG00TKaTelf2U8h;573_5:[55ORPGT;WbLd< X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127374 On 22 Jan 2003 01:00:39 +0100 Neil Franklin wrote: NF> PC Unix was Xenix, which took hellisch long to boot compared with NF> MS-DOS. And it did not even know about using cursor keys. Not even vi, NF> just ed as editor. My 286 Xenix had vi - it was nowhere near as nice as the Altos boxes but then it was a PC. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 22 Jan 2003 09:53:24 GMT Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: usermb57.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1043229204 news.dial.pipex.com 234 62.188.120.56 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!uucp.muenster.de!dnewsfeed02.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed00.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed02.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127352 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:19:45 +0000, Ben Hutchings wrote: >In article , Stan Barr wrote: >> On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >>>my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >>>of milk. >> >> Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost >> me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. >> It makes a change for something to be cheaper over here :-) > >Are you sure you're not looking at the night rate? > >(For those not resident in Britain - we normally get charged much less >for power consumed during a 7-hour period each night, as there is so >much spare generating capacity then.) > >Electricity is quite cheap here at the moment though, as deregulation >seems to be resulting in strong competition at the moment. Yep, just ignore me - I'm talking rubbish! I was looking at the wrong figure on the bill....brain dead again! I'll go and stand in the corner with my dunces cap on :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb45@dial.pipex.com **Remove the digits from email address** The future was never like this! ###### From: abuse@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:38:00 +0000 (UTC) Organization: cabal.org.uk news service, Leeds, UK. Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mooli.org.uk X-Trace: mooli.org.uk 1043235480 24012 195.92.99.54 (22 Jan 2003 11:38:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@mooli.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:38:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: abuse@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!news.cabal.org.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127350 Stan Barr wrote: [...] > Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost me > 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. You're paying 1.28p/kWh? I doubt it, unless you're an electricity company buying and selling megawatts of it wholesale. The cost varies depending on supplier, but typical domestic rates are about 5-6p/kWh. Also, fuel attracts a 5% VAT rate, not 17.5%. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:26:01 -0000 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043252759 5233 80.177.7.220 (22 Jan 2003 16:25:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:25:59 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127382 "Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message news:b0k7en$pisju$2@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > "Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message > > news:b0ik56$nc3eh$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... > > > >> The real big win (with respect to time-saving) of things like LaTeX > >> is of course not that they make individual tasks quicker, but that > >> they ELIMINATE repetitive formatting tasks altogether, as well as > >> producing > > > > That's what a WP should do IMHO, afterall computers are good at > > dumb repetitive tasks, people are not. > > Yes, but the technology of using people to do dumb, repetitive tasks > has a longer history and ought to be more fully debugged. You can't > really blame businesses for sticking with proven, mature technology. True, but LaTeX is very well proven too, and has probably processed more characters in it's lifetime than any invidual typesetter/documetation bod. Actually, that highlights one significant benefit of systems and applications that behave *predictably*... :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:30:43 -0000 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com><1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com><2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com><4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net><20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net><9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com><20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121192318.6ff1ae83.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043253043 25715 80.177.7.220 (22 Jan 2003 16:30:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:30:43 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127386 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20030121192318.6ff1ae83.steveo@eircom.net... > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:28:28 -0000 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > RP> news:20030121063720.6a2ed19c.steveo@eircom.net... > RP> > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 01:38:53 -0000 > RP> > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: [SNIP] > RP> Err, but with Troff you need a dinky little command thing every bloody > RP> line pretty much, with LaTeX you don't. :) > > Nah my CV has about 50 lines with a leading . and 250 without. I trust you submit hardcopy in this day & age... Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:38:11 -0000 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043253490 3860 80.177.7.220 (22 Jan 2003 16:38:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:38:10 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127384 wrote in message news:b0lu91$n0v$5@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , [SNIP] > It's not the rate that's expensive; it's all the added-on stuff > mandated by the politicians, I think. Like the telephone unservice, > I've lost track of all the add-on charges. Over here the chain of blame for various extra-charges goes as follows : supplier->government->europe. What you tend to find is that it's just people ducking responsibilty (surprise surprise) for deceiving you about what you will be charged. I'm an honest guy not an idiot (well perhaps it's just another word for idiot), so I *really* detest that kind of stuff being pitched at me. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:44:11 -0000 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <06br2v4fntikiqvr2iborg5q3ghk738ubq@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043253851 2783 80.177.7.220 (22 Jan 2003 16:44:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:44:11 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!peernews.cix.co.uk!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127383 wrote in message news:06br2v4fntikiqvr2iborg5q3ghk738ubq@4ax.com... [SNIP] > I would have thought that Wake On Lan would ignore all forms of > broadcast packets, otherwise, what's the point of even having it? I would expect that too. I'm just not convinced that it will, I've worked with broken hardware for too long to have any hope of sane design... Therefore it's at the bottom of a very long to- do list... As an additional point I am fairly sure that doze likes to chatter to machines it knows about : such as the ones it imports shares from for instance. I *suppose* that if my doze box fell asleep then my UNIX server box would then be allowed to snooze too. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: From: Jonathan Griffitts Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> Lines: 34 Organization: AnyWare Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-M () Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:44:24 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.238.99.131 X-Complaints-To: news@iccx.net X-Trace: news.incc.net 1043256584 205.238.99.131 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:29:44 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:29:44 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.123!uunet!sac.uu.net!news.incc.net!spamcop.net!jgriffitts Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127349 In article <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com>, Rsclient writes . . . >But the real problem isn't that Byte turned to mush -- but >that all of the computing world turned dull, too. I've wondered >whether there's a sort of 'cambrian explosion' thing going on -- >first computers are all different and wierd, and as time goes >by one or two archetypes start to dominate, sometimes for >good reasons, sometimes for random reasons. Sure! I've often thought so. Go back to the 1960s and there were lots of interesting computer architectures. Various flavors of decimal computers, also machines using ones's complement arithmetic. All different word sizes and character codes. Different strategies for I/O. Every machine also had a different OS or monitor with quite different design philosophies. By the 1980s it was all so boring. 2's complement, ASCII, word sizes of 8, 16, 32 bits. By now, even that much variety is gone. There are only a few machine architectures used for general purpose computing (still a little more variety for embedded stuff). At the desktop level, your OS choices are Windows or some kind of Unix, and those two sides have been growing more similar as time goes on. Too many techies have never actually seen anything different. Throughout the existence of usenet, the advocacy flamewars have been arguing about computers which are nearly indistinguishable from each other. -- Jonathan Griffitts AnyWare Engineering Boulder, CO, USA ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:49:50 -0000 Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043254189 3155 80.177.7.220 (22 Jan 2003 16:49:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:49:49 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127375 "Rsclient" wrote in message news:20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com... > In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix > writes: > > >> It would be a mercy killing. Byte was a fantastic magazine when I > >> started reading it regularly in the mid 80s - Bruce Webster, Ezra > >> Shapiro, Steve Ciarcia etc... > > > >...who were all, as far as I know, forced to leave because their content > >was no longer acceptable. Steve formed his own magazine, which was > >still selling last time I was looking for it. Circuit Cellar, Ink or > >something like that. > > > > > > But the real problem isn't that Byte turned to mush -- but > that all of the computing world turned dull, too. I've wondered > whether there's a sort of 'cambrian explosion' thing going on -- > first computers are all different and wierd, and as time goes > by one or two archetypes start to dominate, sometimes for > good reasons, sometimes for random reasons. > > Even worse, nowadays no computer architecture will be > accepted on the desktop if it doesn't run Microsoft's > office programs. Goodbye, neat new chips, and neat > new hardware. Actually that attitude is changing *very* rapidly now. MS took a 12-guage to their toes with their licensing changes (basically intended to squeeze more blood from the stones to shore up a fairly sketchy sales pitch). Also I suspect that phones/pdas will really change it, MS has been desperately trying to force their way into that segment for many years without much in the way of success. People really don't want flakey PC type stuff on sealed boxes, they want something lighter, more reliable, simpler and faster. MS really does not get it at all - and never will as long as it continues to push the Windows branding. Cheers, Rupert ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 22 Jan 2003 20:55:13 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 37 Message-ID: <6u4r81559a.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20030122071113.1b812061.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1043265313 519 10.0.3.2 (22 Jan 2003 19:55:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2003 19:55:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127410 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On 22 Jan 2003 01:00:39 +0100 > Neil Franklin wrote: > > NF> PC Unix was Xenix, which took hellisch long to boot compared with > NF> MS-DOS. And it did not even know about using cursor keys. Not even vi, > NF> just ed as editor. > > My 286 Xenix had vi - Funny. I have heard from multiple Xenix (und SCO Unix, which ist its successor) users that one nice thing in the change to Linux was discovering screen editiong with vi, usually with some "we only had ed in those days" line. Perhaps they never looked far enough. Or was it in some /usr/ucb/* directory that they did not have in their paths. Unix does suffer badly when not set up well, which is what quite a few out-of-box installs did. And then one needed an Guru to get it good, if one had one at hand. > it was nowhere near as nice as the Altos > boxes but then it was a PC. Those Altos sure sounded nice. Even their old Z/80 MP/M boxes had a good reputation. Then they built on that, using 8086 the way it should be used. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 22 Jan 03 11:51:16 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <937.152T810T7114299@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com><3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca><1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid><20030120073813.02b509c8.steveo@eircom.net><3E2DFE95.8C8E7388@caloundra.qld.gov.au> <20030122194123.731112f0.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-238.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127440 In article <20030122194123.731112f0.steveo@eircom.net> steveo@eircom.net (Steve O'Hara-Smith) writes: >On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:14:45 +1000 >Bernie Dwyer wrote: > >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 23:01:10 -0500 >>> Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >>> >>>> Murcheson's Eye? I thought it was God's eye... ? >>> >>> It's the sequel, it is also crap. >> >> Oi! It's not crap - it's just not as good as its predecessor. > > The predecessor had a lot of original and interesting ideas >the sequel did not. Sounds like it's time to drag out that saying: "It was a great improvement on its successor." -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 03 11:20:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZlsKjsfJzgjuo+9daISFEELxFWfBGJ9+y3vPbOHWJEgP8L88831nMa X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 2003 11:58:07 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127421 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:26:01 -0000, "Rupert Pigott" > wrote: > >>"Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message >>news:b0k7en$pisju$2@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... >>> Rupert Pigott wrote: >>> >>> > "Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message >>> > news:b0ik56$nc3eh$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... >>> > >>> >> The real big win (with respect to time-saving) of things like LaTeX >>> >> is of course not that they make individual tasks quicker, but that >>> >> they ELIMINATE repetitive formatting tasks altogether, as well as >>> >> producing >>> > >>> > That's what a WP should do IMHO, afterall computers are good at >>> > dumb repetitive tasks, people are not. >>> >>> Yes, but the technology of using people to do dumb, repetitive tasks >>> has a longer history and ought to be more fully debugged. You can't >>> really blame businesses for sticking with proven, mature technology. >> >>True, but LaTeX is very well proven too, and has probably processed >>more characters in it's lifetime than any invidual typesetter/documetation >>bod. Actually, that highlights one significant benefit of systems and >>applications that behave *predictably*... :) > >Suspect that [gnt]roff, IBM's Script, ?'s Scribe, and other >similar packages have seen a few TBs pass by in the last 30 years >and their lead may not have been surpassed yet. >I was shocked at one PPOE to see how many GB of documents were >created under PROFS/OV using DW/370 in one company in a year! >At one time I would have said WordStar, and later WordPerfect, >would have been the leader in number and volume of documents, but >just due to it's ubiquity as a corporate standard and its bloated >format, I bet that by now MS Word has been responsible for the >biggest volume of documents ever stored on disk. Every company in >the world must have GB of space devoted to keeping around >decaying, trivial Word memos and reports. And I bet most of those stored characters are dele's. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 03 12:13:06 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaTbXRFEQpfCpHviKbf3mqgEMqsFqnyLH8/PI2j9TGTQjvuDxcd80lM X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 2003 12:50:16 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127427 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >According to : >>In article , >My "always-on" box is a Mini-ITX box that uses 8 watts of power; with >peaks to around 22 watts on heavy disk and network usage. It has an >internal DC-DC power that takes 12V DC from the outside world. I have >fed it from a car battery as UPS: This UPS will hold for nearly three >days. > >It is not "racing fast" by today's standards, it clocks in at 120k >whetstones and 600k drystones, or slightly less than a fourth of a >Cray-1 by yesteryears. > >It has 2x160G el-cheapo IDE disk, and three network interfaces. >It runs FreeBSD, and a fairly elaborate set of daemons, including >uucp over gsm, and ipv6. > >It way outruns ISP servers from around 1995 or thereabouts. I run >accounting just for fun, and I average around 3.5% cpu usage. > >I am currently considering installing one in a sailboat. What kinds of problems do you have to solve to get gear on a boat? To me, sailboat implies salt which implies corrosion. Also, can you have a disk with moving arms work when everything is rocking? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:51:16 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4bb8f196afdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.33) Organization: None Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: userky17.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1043266090 news.dial.pipex.com 234 62.188.108.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!uucp.muenster.de!dnewsfeed03.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed01.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed03.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127457 In article <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com>, Rsclient wrote: > Even worse, nowadays no computer architecture will be > accepted on the desktop if it doesn't run Microsoft's > office programs. Goodbye, neat new chips, and neat > new hardware. Well, in the UK there is a range of ARM-based desktop computers. A new one was launched at the end of last year which uses a 600Mhz XScale (Intel's version of the ARM). 600Mhz is laughable in the PC world but on these machines it is as fast as it gets. On the other hand, these machines have a simple, lightweight OS called RISC OS that allows you to use those 600MHz for running programs rather than keeping the animated eye candy going. It is not the sort of OS you use for running servers or anything like that, but it is fine for the normal everyday tasks of computer use. IMHO it has a very elegant and practical GUI. One very useful aspect is that, not being a PC running Windows, PC viruses have no effect on it. (Actually, I would have thought that that would have been a very good selling point.) Unfortunately RISC OS suffers the usual problem of not being Windows and is just an enthusiasts' operating system nowadays. It is my favourite OS, and as far as I am concerned, nothing else will do as they are not RISC OS. Dave Daniels ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 22 Jan 2003 20:48:01 GMT Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-189-112.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1043268481 news.dial.pipex.com 230 62.241.189.112 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!uucp.muenster.de!dnewsfeed02.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed00.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed03.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127419 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:38:00 +0000 (UTC), Peter Corlett wrote: >Stan Barr wrote: >[...] >> Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost me >> 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. > >You're paying 1.28p/kWh? I doubt it, unless you're an electricity company >buying and selling megawatts of it wholesale. > You're quite right! I happned have my bill on my desk when I was reading the original post and I glanced quickly at it and saw "1.279p per Kilowatt- hour" and fired of a posting without reading tooo carefully. My energy supplier quotes *gas* charges in KW/h! Logical enough, I suppose, but confusing. Yet another example of me getting "word-blind" when I get tired :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb45@dial.pipex.com **Remove the digits from email address** The future was never like this! ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:35:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1043271321 24.71.223.147 (Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:35:21 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:35:21 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127468 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:26:01 -0000, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >"Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message >news:b0k7en$pisju$2@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... >> Rupert Pigott wrote: >> >> > "Roland Hutchinson" wrote in message >> > news:b0ik56$nc3eh$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... >> > >> >> The real big win (with respect to time-saving) of things like LaTeX >> >> is of course not that they make individual tasks quicker, but that >> >> they ELIMINATE repetitive formatting tasks altogether, as well as >> >> producing >> > >> > That's what a WP should do IMHO, afterall computers are good at >> > dumb repetitive tasks, people are not. >> >> Yes, but the technology of using people to do dumb, repetitive tasks >> has a longer history and ought to be more fully debugged. You can't >> really blame businesses for sticking with proven, mature technology. > >True, but LaTeX is very well proven too, and has probably processed >more characters in it's lifetime than any invidual typesetter/documetation >bod. Actually, that highlights one significant benefit of systems and >applications that behave *predictably*... :) Suspect that [gnt]roff, IBM's Script, ?'s Scribe, and other similar packages have seen a few TBs pass by in the last 30 years and their lead may not have been surpassed yet. I was shocked at one PPOE to see how many GB of documents were created under PROFS/OV using DW/370 in one company in a year! At one time I would have said WordStar, and later WordPerfect, would have been the leader in number and volume of documents, but just due to it's ubiquity as a corporate standard and its bloated format, I bet that by now MS Word has been responsible for the biggest volume of documents ever stored on disk. Every company in the world must have GB of space devoted to keeping around decaying, trivial Word memos and reports. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:58:26 +0000 Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <3fcr2v8a8gjlfh30q4c5dvkp591d4itp06@4ax.com> Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043272707 16521 80.177.21.188 (22 Jan 2003 21:58:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:58:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127471 On Wed, 22 Jan 03 10:40:45 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <3fcr2v8a8gjlfh30q4c5dvkp591d4itp06@4ax.com>, > Steve Burton wrote: >>On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>>In article , >>> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >>>> wrote in message >news:b0jbnc$rb5$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >>>>> In article , >>>>> "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >>>>> >Mensanator wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". >>>>> > >>>>> >Right. >>>>> > >>>>> >Then. Leave. It. Running. >>>>> > >>>>> >Simple. >>>>> > >>>>> >:) >>>>> >>>>> That's a waste of power. >>>> >>>>Oddly PCs *used* to be low power devices - the Amiga A1000 >>>>had a ~85W PSU for example. PCs rarely carried more than a >>>>200W at one stage - that's a *PEAK* output of two whole light >>>>bulbs, whoa boy... But I know you have dutch ancestry, so it >>>>hurts to lose those pennies... >>> >>>It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >>>my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >>>of milk. >>> >>Are you planning a bath? But then asses milk is dearer. >> >>:-):-):-) > >Bath? Yuckaroo. One of the joys of growing up was to not >have to endure a Saturday night bath. I've never milked an >ass, so I don't know how dear it is. > >> >>[ and Hawk I really *need* your hiding place now ] > >He's got a good one and it must be well-stocked since he's >been able to survive for weeks without a post. > >>>>Now we have "Green PCs" of course so we can leave them in >>>>vegetable power-saving states - and even have them do it for us >>>>when they are feeling un-loved. As it happens I've actually just >>>>moved my UNIX box from my ancient old not-very-green-m/b >>>>to a AMD K7 board that understands green. I can power it >>>>down the other end of the network cable... If I wired up wake >>>>on LAN and persueded windows to stop broadcasting crap on >>>>the LAN I could probably get it to wake-up again too. >> >>I'm looking at building a mini-itx PC which only uses 55W flat out. I >>can't decide whether to build it as a DVD player and general PC or >>just to make it do DNS and network services. They can be made fanless >>and so quiet so I could leave it on all of the time. > >You don't want any fans waving at you? > It gets troublesome after a while. I seem to be constantly subjected to the attentions of (mainly American)[1] women who mistake me for an American soap-opera actor after trawling for his name on the 'net. Steve. >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. [1] that is, they seem to be mainly from the USA. ###### From: notsaying@dawks.demon.co.uk (dawks) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:29:50 GMT Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3e2f2967.88702297@news.demon.co.uk> References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net> <4bb86b4c43dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dawks.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043277963 13358 194.222.153.217 (22 Jan 2003 23:26:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:26:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127428 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 03:10:26 +0000, Ben Hutchings wrote: >In article <4bb86b4c43dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels wrote: >> In article <3E2C93A8.62BA82E0@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >>> I thought that the 1983 C langauge issue was good too. IIRC, >>> the 1978 issue was for LISP, the 1982 issue was for Logo... >> >>> IMHO, the "language" issue of BYTE was a *great* idea. >> >> They had one devoted to the 68000 during the mid 1980s as well. >> Did they have any other issues where they focused on a type of >> processor? > >The PowerPC, August 1993. Also the 8080 in 1976, 6502 in 1977, Moto 68000 was covered in 1986 with the 68040 (a well interesting processor) in 1991.I don't have a good memory but a book called 'The Best of Byte ' which is not great (although not bad) that contains lots of interesting stuff from #1 up to 92 or so. Can't remember where i got it, but Byte was one of my faves until it flaked, although the all time boss was '.EXE'. Excellent articles and Verity Stob's column was well amusing. Still is, i think (DDJ online now, still extremely witty and, imho, quite precise). phil. -- The world is divided into two sorts of people: those that believe that the world is divided into two sorts of people and those that don't. ###### From: Dave Horsfall Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:54:22 +1100 Organization: client of Corinthian Internet Services Lines: 18 Message-ID: <20030123104625.O66251@mippet.ci.com.au> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20030122071113.1b812061.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mippet.ci.com.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: merki.connect.com.au 1043279664 5863 192.65.182.30 (22 Jan 2003 23:54:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@connect.com.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jan 2003 23:54:24 GMT In-Reply-To: <20030122071113.1b812061.steveo@eircom.net> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" X-Witty-Saying: "Mobius Strip - See other side for instructions" Cache-Post-Path: mippet.ci.com.au!unknown@mippet.ci.com.au X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!mippet.ci.com.au!daveh Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127431 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > NF> PC Unix was Xenix, which took hellisch long to boot compared with > NF> MS-DOS. And it did not even know about using cursor keys. Not even vi, > NF> just ed as editor. > > My 286 Xenix had vi - it was nowhere near as nice as the Altos > boxes but then it was a PC. As did my 286 Xenix. I also ported the Unify RDBMS to it. I *think* I still have it in my garage, collecting dust... That's when I really learned to loathe Xenix. Heck, that's when I learned to loathe PCs in general; after running 8 users on a PDP 11/40 (Edition 6-1/2 Unix) with a whole 248Kb of core, I couldn't believe how limited they were. -- Dave ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:26:40 -0600 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <06br2v4fntikiqvr2iborg5q3ghk738ubq@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr140.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1043281618 16927 209.100.226.140 (23 Jan 2003 00:26:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:26:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127474 On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:44:11 -0000, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message >news:06br2v4fntikiqvr2iborg5q3ghk738ubq@4ax.com... > >[SNIP] > >> I would have thought that Wake On Lan would ignore all forms of >> broadcast packets, otherwise, what's the point of even having it? > >I would expect that too. I'm just not convinced that it will, I've >worked with broken hardware for too long to have any hope >of sane design... Therefore it's at the bottom of a very long to- >do list... Mine is plenty long, also. > >As an additional point I am fairly sure that doze likes to chatter >to machines it knows about : such as the ones it imports shares > from for instance. I *suppose* that if my doze box fell asleep >then my UNIX server box would then be allowed to snooze too. Yes, windows is pretty yackity-yackity on the wire, mostly for no good reason, IMO. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### From: Ben Hutchings Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:19:57 +0000 Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Reply-To: Ben Hutchings NNTP-Posting-Host: pc5-cmbg1-6-cust149.cmbg.cable.ntl.com (80.4.127.149) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043289004 28740408 80.4.127.149 (16 [70929]) X-Orig-Path: 192.168.1.1!nobody User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pc5-cmbg1-6-cust149.cmbg.cable.ntl.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127412 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >>On Tue, 21 Jan 03 12:39:20 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com > wrote: >>> >>>It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >>>my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >>>of milk. >> >>Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would cost >>me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. >>It makes a change for something to be cheaper over here :-) > > It's not the rate that's expensive; it's all the added-on stuff > mandated by the politicians, I think. Like the telephone unservice, > I've lost track of all the add-on charges. It's just a cost of doing business. The utilities like to split it out on the bill so they can claim a lower rate. We have that here with VAT (like sales tax, only different) on utility bills. -- Ben Hutchings | personal web site: http://womble.decadentplace.org.uk/ Design a system any fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 70 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:00:36 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1043294401 212.186.246.50 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 05:00:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 05:00:01 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127447 According to : >In article , > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> wrote in message news:b0jbnc$rb5$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >>> In article , >>> "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >>> >Mensanator wrote: >>> > >>> >>> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >>> >> >>> >> Something like "waiting for UNIX to boot makes my teeth itch". >>> > >>> >Right. >>> > >>> >Then. Leave. It. Running. >>> > >>> >Simple. >>> > >>> >:) >>> >>> That's a waste of power. >> >>Oddly PCs *used* to be low power devices - the Amiga A1000 >>had a ~85W PSU for example. PCs rarely carried more than a >>200W at one stage - that's a *PEAK* output of two whole light >>bulbs, whoa boy... But I know you have dutch ancestry, so it >>hurts to lose those pennies... > >It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on >my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons >of milk. > >> >>Now we have "Green PCs" of course so we can leave them in >>vegetable power-saving states - and even have them do it for us >>when they are feeling un-loved. As it happens I've actually just >>moved my UNIX box from my ancient old not-very-green-m/b >>to a AMD K7 board that understands green. I can power it >>down the other end of the network cable... If I wired up wake >>on LAN and persueded windows to stop broadcasting crap on >>the LAN I could probably get it to wake-up again too. > >In this modern day and age of computers in everything but >the kitchen sink, I have a distrust of leaving gear on their >own; they don't seem to think very well for themselves. As usual, there IS another way. My "always-on" box is a Mini-ITX box that uses 8 watts of power; with peaks to around 22 watts on heavy disk and network usage. It has an internal DC-DC power that takes 12V DC from the outside world. I have fed it from a car battery as UPS: This UPS will hold for nearly three days. It is not "racing fast" by today's standards, it clocks in at 120k whetstones and 600k drystones, or slightly less than a fourth of a Cray-1 by yesteryears. It has 2x160G el-cheapo IDE disk, and three network interfaces. It runs FreeBSD, and a fairly elaborate set of daemons, including uucp over gsm, and ipv6. It way outruns ISP servers from around 1995 or thereabouts. I run accounting just for fun, and I average around 3.5% cpu usage. I am currently considering installing one in a sailboat. -- mrr ###### Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 06:51:08 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030123065108.63c85fc3.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20030122071113.1b812061.steveo@eircom.net> <6u4r81559a.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 2003 06:13:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0787.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=ZU0chJRaF0>HSj?MfBemJ51`\LnN2UYY1nJj>=bGS:b80TKaTelf2U8[al8M0TS=9=;7h16HmBcW? X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127446 On 22 Jan 2003 20:55:13 +0100 Neil Franklin wrote: NF> Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: NF> NF> > On 22 Jan 2003 01:00:39 +0100 NF> > Neil Franklin wrote: NF> > NF> > NF> PC Unix was Xenix, which took hellisch long to boot compared NF> > NF> with MS-DOS. And it did not even know about using cursor keys. NF> > NF> Not even vi, just ed as editor. NF> > NF> > My 286 Xenix had vi - NF> NF> Funny. I have heard from multiple Xenix (und SCO Unix, which ist its NF> successor) users that one nice thing in the change to Linux was NF> discovering screen editiong with vi, usually with some "we only had NF> ed in those days" line. It was probably in one of the optional packs - developer or text processing most likely. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: From: Jonathan Griffitts Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20030122071113.1b812061.steveo@eircom.net> <6u4r81559a.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Lines: 14 Organization: AnyWare Engineering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-M () Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:19:35 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.238.99.66 X-Complaints-To: news@iccx.net X-Trace: news.incc.net 1043306395 205.238.99.66 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:19:55 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:19:55 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!195.129.110.18.MISMATCH!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.incc.net!spamcop.net!jgriffitts Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127413 In article <6u4r81559a.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin writes . . . >Unix does suffer badly when not set up well, which is what quite a few >out-of-box installs did. And then one needed an Guru to get it good, >if one had one at hand. I've thought for a long time that there must be an intentional Unix philosophy of using bad default settings. Perhaps it's a way of trying to force everyone to RTFM and learn to configure things. -- Jonathan Griffitts AnyWare Engineering Boulder, CO, USA ###### From: greymaus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 23 Jan 2003 07:30:13 GMT Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> Reply-To: greymaus@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 159.134.255.253 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043307013 28207445 159.134.255.253 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!159.134.255.253!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127449 On 21 Jan 2003 22:54:04 GMT I read the message from Rsclient >> > > But the real problem isn't that Byte turned to mush -- but > that all of the computing world turned dull, too. I've wondered > whether there's a sort of 'cambrian explosion' thing going on -- > first computers are all different and wierd, and as time goes > by one or two archetypes start to dominate, sometimes for > good reasons, sometimes for random reasons. > > Even worse, nowadays no computer architecture will be > accepted on the desktop if it doesn't run Microsoft's > office programs. Goodbye, neat new chips, and neat > new hardware. There is one good computer magazine, the UKbased Computer Shopper, about 30 pages of content scattered through 400+ pages of adverts. A bit M$centric. Is there anything sadder than a magazine devoted to the Internet? -- greymaus; Follow up, don't e-mail, my killfile is savage; ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:10:06 -0600 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> <747.151T1841T5985594@kltpzyxm.invalid> <6un0lu834o.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20030122071113.1b812061.steveo@eircom.net> <6u4r81559a.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr140.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1043309424 26790 209.100.226.140 (23 Jan 2003 08:10:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:10:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.lightlink.com!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127473 On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 00:19:35 -0700, Jonathan Griffitts wrote: >In article <6u4r81559a.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin > writes > . . . > >>Unix does suffer badly when not set up well, which is what quite a few >>out-of-box installs did. And then one needed an Guru to get it good, >>if one had one at hand. > >I've thought for a long time that there must be an intentional Unix >philosophy of using bad default settings. Perhaps it's a way of trying >to force everyone to RTFM and learn to configure things. Gee, kinda sounds like windows, except there is FM to R, or if there is, it is well hidden. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:37:09 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127444 greymaus wrote: > > There is one good computer magazine, the UKbased Computer Shopper, > about 30 pages of content scattered through 400+ pages of adverts. A > bit M$centric. I find the content far too beginner-oriented myself, but the ads are OK. I prefer MicroMart for ads though - all kinds of bargains in there. I only ever buy mags for the cover CDs or ads these days; there's seldom any content worth reading. Of the UK mags, PC-Pro is about the last one to become unreadably poor. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Sean Case Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Marginal References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:49:40 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.8.27.134 X-Complaints-To: news@pacific.net.au X-Trace: nasal.pacific.net.au 1043322307 61.8.27.134 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:45:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:45:07 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!logbridge.uoregon.edu!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!nasal.pacific.net.au!gsc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127461 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: > uucp over gsm Where? WHERE? Sean Case -- Sean Case gsc@zip.com.au Code is an illusion. Only assertions are real. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:35:50 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1043330401 212.186.246.50 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:00:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:00:01 MET X-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:00:02 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!feed.news.nacamar.de!uio.no!news01.chello.no!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127445 According to Sean Case : >In article , > Morten Reistad wrote: > >> uucp over gsm > >Where? WHERE? I have connected a GSM phone to the box with a serial cable at 9600 bps. The phone uses a subscription in a friends&family type setup. The callout is expensive, but this phone never calls out. Standard uucp+getty "just like in the old days". The phone is an old Nokia 8210, worn to the point of having bad battery connectors. It still works nicely, and it is even fed 12V from the car battery via 12V adapter. Ditto GSM setup on a laptop, cable to a Nokia, uucp dialout. Set it up with sendmail, uucp etc. exactly like in the old days. Even the baud rate is the same! -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 56 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:01:29 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1043332201 212.186.246.50 (Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:30:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:30:01 MET X-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:30:06 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!news.powertech.no!newsfeed1.e.nsc.no!nsc.no!nextra.com!news01.chello.no!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127451 According to : >In article , > Morten Reistad wrote: >>According to : >>>In article , > > >>My "always-on" box is a Mini-ITX box that uses 8 watts of power; with [snip] >>I am currently considering installing one in a sailboat. > >What kinds of problems do you have to solve to get gear >on a boat? To me, sailboat implies salt which implies >corrosion. Also, can you have a disk with moving arms >work when everything is rocking? And, not to forget : POWER. A sailboat has no natural source of electrical power. I have a 36" boat from 1986 that I bought last summer, and is currently renovating. I am right in the middle of sorting out the electrics. My SO is sorting out the wall carpet! (=removing it). We'll get it to a point where we can live in it in reasonable comfort during the summer. Yes, there is an engine, a trusty old Yanmar three-cylinder diesel. But we'll rather use the sails if we can. I will upgrade the batteries to around 480 Ah of 12V power. This is a lot for a boat that size. The largest power-eater is the fridge, it eats 6A (or 70W) constantly (yes; it is a Peltier-element). Navigation instruments use 4.5A, radio 1.2A on standby. A big land-based charger will charge to 80% in 5 hours. The engine alternator delivers 120A at 14.5V. (cooking is from propane gas, heating from a paraffine burner).I am considering options for 220V AC. All of this are rather rare items on a boat of less than 45-50 feet. Normal battery banks are 120-200 Ah, land chargers charge that in 12+ hours, alternators normally give 50-70A. So, an 80W "green" PC is completely out of the question. The salt humidity is the worst offender, but there are nice enclosures for electronics that fit nicely, as well as good shock-absorbers for electronics. These things are not very expensive either; suppliers to fishing vessels usually stock them; and offshore fishermen have a good mentality in demanding things that work. I'll use duplicated disks in any case. The chief worry is the monitor. I'll need a LCD that uses little power, is rugged, light, affordable and can stand marine environments. (I seem to hear someone saying "Good Luck, Jim" whenever I say this). -- mrr ###### From: lars@bearnip.com (Lars Duening) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:13:58 -0700 Lines: 5 Message-ID: <1fp8hq9.1haax4n10x1sdqN%lars@bearnip.com> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.com (198.31.26.33) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043342039 29282336 198.31.26.33 (16 [14293]) X-Orig-Path: lars User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.5b1 (Mac OS X version 10.2.3) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!dhcp-dsl-31-26-33.interfold.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127463 greymaus wrote: > Is there anything sadder than a magazine devoted to the Internet? Yes: Magazines devoted to Internet portal sites. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:01:27 -0000 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043344885 24115 80.177.7.220 (23 Jan 2003 18:01:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:01:25 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127452 "Morten Reistad" wrote in message news:ksln0b.1r31.ln@via.reistad.priv.no... [SNIP] > As usual, there IS another way. > > My "always-on" box is a Mini-ITX box that uses 8 watts of power; with > peaks to around 22 watts on heavy disk and network usage. It has an > internal DC-DC power that takes 12V DC from the outside world. I have > fed it from a car battery as UPS: This UPS will hold for nearly three > days. Yeah I'd do that if I wasn't skint. Just using old machines, besides seems criminal to leave them to rot after they've served me so well. I bond with my tools, they look after me and I look after them. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:23:11 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030123212311.4cc8e33a.steveo@eircom.net> References: X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.8 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 2003 20:32:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i2131.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=?jldo4RAHn<0hgn9]P`nL61`\LnN2UYY1IXh8^a5>9]80TKaTelf2U8bYe?T0^cN`?M6k\R5ehi=8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!213.51.129.3.MISMATCH!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127533 On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:25:50 +0000 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: CH> Cambridge Corn Exchange Now that's an old stamping ground allright (I was one of the oiks that wandered past the queue, waved at the bouncers and walked in early). I'll never forget the Motorhead fuse job - perhaps they only looked like sawn off six inch nails, but unlike the originals they didn't blow on the sound check :) The place was never the same after they fitted that poxy sound limiter. At the first gig with it in place the band got all the way through the first number - then the applause triggered the cutout! Hmm Radio Caroline Roadshows - I'm feeling all nostalgic now. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:31:55 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127531 Chris Hedley wrote: > I couldn't get it back then, I suppose our nearest equivalent was PCW > which also tended to be better in the early '80s and really went down- > hill quickly when the PC took off I preferred "Practical Computing" myself - tended to be a bit less sensationalist and a bit more broad-based - even printed some folklore and a few pieces of fiction- although PCW had its good spots - Sub Set and the Benchtests. Of the crop of weeklies I used to like Personal Computer News (a better mag than the title suggests, and damn good value for 35p) and Popular Computing Weekly (if only for the Automata Cartography ads on the back page). pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:31:55 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127531 Chris Hedley wrote: > I couldn't get it back then, I suppose our nearest equivalent was PCW > which also tended to be better in the early '80s and really went down- > hill quickly when the PC took off I preferred "Practical Computing" myself - tended to be a bit less sensationalist and a bit more broad-based - even printed some folklore and a few pieces of fiction- although PCW had its good spots - Sub Set and the Benchtests. Of the crop of weeklies I used to like Personal Computer News (a better mag than the title suggests, and damn good value for 35p) and Popular Computing Weekly (if only for the Automata Cartography ads on the back page). pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:50:12 +0000 Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1043355012 24354 80.177.21.188 (23 Jan 2003 20:50:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:50:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127558 On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:28:52 +0000, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Roland Hutchinson : >> My undoubtedly fallible recollection is that it was all pretty much >> downhill after the Smalltalk issue (August 1981; I just looked it up). >> >> Of course, one could argue that that issue was so good, there was no >> possible direction to go but down thereafter. > >I couldn't get it back then, I suppose our nearest equivalent was PCW >which also tended to be better in the early '80s and really went down- >hill quickly when the PC took off, although in recent years has made a >bit of a comeback now that they've decided that there's more to computing >than Windows (although they are still far too Windows oriented) > >Chris. The Smalltalk issue was the first one I bought, from a corner newsagents, in York. I continued to buy it for years until it got too bad. At the end the only thing I read it for was Chaos Manor! Then realization dawned, I was spending good money to read the witterings of someone who didn't learn from his mistakes. So I stopped. Perhaps, I can sue - there was no warning in 1981 that this was the zenith and it was all downhill from there. I also read Practical Computing back then - that was the first computer magazine I ever saw on open, public, sale. Steve. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:11:25 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127534 Steve Burton wrote: > The Smalltalk issue was the first one I bought, from a corner > newsagents, in York. I continued to buy it for years until it got too > bad. At the end the only thing I read it for was Chaos Manor! Bloody hell, that was the first bit I *stopped* reading! > I also read Practical Computing back then - that was the first > computer magazine I ever saw on open, public, sale. And one of the best. DDJ to PCW's Byte. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:35:33 -0600 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 25 Message-ID: <0ru03vogqocpo3qi2qkittlbka46qougu7@4ax.com> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr246.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1043364951 19560 209.100.226.246 (23 Jan 2003 23:35:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:35:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127560 On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:01:29 +0100, Morten Reistad wrote: >A sailboat has no natural source of electrical power. I have >a 36" boat from 1986 that I bought last summer, and is currently Three feet? >All of this are rather rare items on a boat of less than 45-50 feet. Oh, a typo :-) >The chief worry is the monitor. I'll need a LCD that uses little power, >is rugged, light, affordable and can stand marine environments. >(I seem to hear someone saying "Good Luck, Jim" whenever I say this). Well I know that use LCD displays for fish finders, and depth sounders (I can't spell the correct fath... word), so maybe one of those manufacturers would know of one. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:14:11 -0800 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3E309363.B84AB8FA@computer.org> References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043370837 29839541 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127495 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > RP> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this > RP> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically > RP> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like > RP> UNIX... > > ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. > Perhaps because he got bounced from Arpanet? Sam ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 03:09:11 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <3E309363.B84AB8FA@computer.org> User-Agent: tin/1.5.16-20021229 ("Spiders") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!mephistopheles.news.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127527 Sam Yorko wrote: >> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. >> > > Perhaps because he got bounced from Arpanet? > > Sam Wasn't that when he was a turist at MIT on ITS and/or TOPS-10 systems? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: fouldragon@aol.com.ru (Marada C. Shradrakaii) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 24 Jan 2003 04:28:23 GMT References: <4bb8f196afdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Message-ID: <20030123232823.19261.00000145@mb-fs.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m1.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127510 >It is my favourite OS, and as far as I am >concerned, nothing else will do as they are not RISC OS. Did they ever market them in the United States? I've heard they have an excellent operating environment, but I'm not about to pay $150 to ship one over to test the claim. -- Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii On the Internet, all roads lead to either pornography or a GNU/Linux HOWTO. Which way are you going? Mail hint: Not in Russia ###### Message-ID: <3E30DDF5.33E8BD45@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <1947.148T1148T10714581@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.241.15.59 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1043382816 12.241.15.59 (Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:33:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:33:36 GMT Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 04:33:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!63.210.96.66.MISMATCH!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127553 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > > In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > Didn't he have a close friend who would proof his technical detail > > for accuracy? When that friend died, so went the sanity check. > > Now that you mention it, I do remember something about an associate of > his dying. > He referred to this man as "my late, mad friend..." I just do *not* remember the name right now. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb45@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 24 Jan 2003 06:03:41 GMT Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-241-188-241.dsl.pipex.com X-Trace: 1043388221 news.dial.pipex.com 245 62.241.188.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!uucp.muenster.de!dnewsfeed02.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!dnewsifeed01.dtm.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed03.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127503 On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:50:12 +0000, Steve Burton wrote: >I also read Practical Computing back then - that was the first >computer magazine I ever saw on open, public, sale. I bought PC and PCW from issue 1 (which I've still got) until they started to become endless comparison tests of Wintel gear. Is PCW the longest running personal computing magazine? First issue August(?) 1978 and still going. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb45@dial.pipex.com **Remove the digits from email address** The future was never like this! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:23:31 +0800 Message-ID: <35mq0b.2bm.ln@innovative.iinet.net.au> Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1043391108 18911 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!diablo.voicenet.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!130.94.89.10.MISMATCH!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127540 stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: >On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:38:00 +0000 (UTC), Peter Corlett > wrote: >>Stan Barr wrote: >>[...] >>> Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would >>> cost me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. >>You're paying 1.28p/kWh? I doubt it, unless you're an electricity >>company buying and selling megawatts of it wholesale. >You're quite right! I happned have my bill on my desk when I was >reading the original post and I glanced quickly at it and saw >"1.279p per Kilowatt- hour" and fired of a posting without reading >tooo carefully. My energy supplier quotes *gas* charges in KW/h! >Logical enough, I suppose, but confusing. Makes as much sense as charging in MJ. No... it's not logical. It's only logical if you burn it in sufficient air. Imagine being charged for a gas leak in MJ. Should be charged in kg, as should gasoline, etc. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: greymaus Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 24 Jan 2003 07:41:05 GMT Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> Reply-To: greymaus@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: p106.as1.naas1.eircom.net (159.134.254.106) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1043394065 30083452 159.134.254.106 (16 [132592]) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!p106.as1.naas1.eircom.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127532 On Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:37:09 -0000 I read the message from Pete > greymaus wrote: >> >> There is one good computer magazine, the UKbased Computer Shopper, >> about 30 pages of content scattered through 400+ pages of adverts. A >> bit M$centric. > > I find the content far too beginner-oriented myself, but the ads are OK. > I prefer MicroMart for ads though - all kinds of bargains in there. > I only ever buy mags for the cover CDs or ads these days; there's seldom > any content worth reading. Of the UK mags, PC-Pro is about the last one > to become unreadably poor. > > pete I gave up using cover CD's for anything years ago, even before I went Linux, Windows allows one to plug up the system with crud. If I was ever to go back to Windows , i would weld the CD shut. -- greymaus; Follow up, don't e-mail, my killfile is savage; ###### From: abuse@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:38:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: cabal.org.uk news service, Leeds, UK. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <35mq0b.2bm.ln@innovative.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mooli.org.uk X-Trace: mooli.org.uk 1043422698 7685 195.92.99.54 (24 Jan 2003 15:38:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@mooli.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:38:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: abuse@mooli.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!news.cabal.org.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127487 Bernd Felsche wrote: > stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: [...] >> You're quite right! I happned have my bill on my desk when I was reading >> the original post and I glanced quickly at it and saw "1.279p per >> Kilowatt- hour" and fired of a posting without reading tooo carefully. My >> energy supplier quotes *gas* charges in KW/h! Logical enough, I suppose, >> but confusing. > Makes as much sense as charging in MJ. No... it's not logical. It's only > logical if you burn it in sufficient air. [...] It's actually measured in cubic feet, since that's what the legacy meters can measure. However, the calorific value of gas varies from area to area (and season to season) and so the volume is converted to kWh using local parameters to normalise it across the UK. Needless to say, the charges for the service bear little relation to the actual cost of provision. I think most fuel suppliers bought calculators in the Enron auction. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 25 Jan 03 14:52:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 73 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYz7jKZHtysFjXh2MqsgSvwL9QLC5vcLoLmih3RT2xbQPuqOJIY5yW4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jan 2003 15:29:43 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!easynet-quince!easynet.net!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127638 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >According to : >>In article , >> Morten Reistad wrote: >>>According to : >>>>In article , >> >> >>>My "always-on" box is a Mini-ITX box that uses 8 watts of power; with >[snip] >>>I am currently considering installing one in a sailboat. >> >>What kinds of problems do you have to solve to get gear >>on a boat? To me, sailboat implies salt which implies >>corrosion. Also, can you have a disk with moving arms >>work when everything is rocking? > >And, not to forget : POWER. I didn't forget; you'ld already covered that ^up there. > >A sailboat has no natural source of electrical power. I have >a 36" boat from 1986 that I bought last summer, and is currently >renovating. One would think that, if a potato with two leads generated electricity, all of that sea water could be used in a similar way. You did mean feet, not inches. > .. I am right in the middle of sorting out the electrics. >My SO is sorting out the wall carpet! (=removing it). We'll >get it to a point where we can live in it in reasonable comfort >during the summer. Yes, there is an engine, a trusty old Yanmar >three-cylinder diesel. But we'll rather use the sails if we can. > >I will upgrade the batteries to around 480 Ah of 12V power. This is a >lot for a boat that size. The largest power-eater is the fridge, it >eats 6A (or 70W) constantly (yes; it is a Peltier-element). Other than ice and convenience, why do you need a fridge? >Navigation instruments use 4.5A, radio 1.2A on standby. A big >land-based charger will charge to 80% in 5 hours. The engine >alternator delivers 120A at 14.5V. (cooking is from propane gas, >heating from a paraffine burner).I am considering options for 220V AC. >All of this are rather rare items on a boat of less than 45-50 feet. >Normal battery banks are 120-200 Ah, land chargers charge that in >12+ hours, alternators normally give 50-70A. > >So, an 80W "green" PC is completely out of the question. > >The salt humidity is the worst offender, but there are nice enclosures >for electronics that fit nicely, as well as good shock-absorbers for >electronics. These things are not very expensive either; suppliers to >fishing vessels usually stock them; and offshore fishermen have a good >mentality in demanding things that work. I'll use duplicated disks in >any case. > >The chief worry is the monitor. Yup. That's what uses up a lot my power. > .. I'll need a LCD that uses little power, >is rugged, light, affordable and can stand marine environments. >(I seem to hear someone saying "Good Luck, Jim" whenever I say this). TTY? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 26 Jan 03 11:35:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYaYZWjo3dxuLZQIxy0xlfrpF9vXggdsBCACD/guJP0Gt6XLn0pjbq1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2003 12:13:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127621 In article , "Kelli Halliburton" wrote: >Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >> In article <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, Kelli >> Halliburton wrote: >>> Editing a book in vi and then having to go back and troff it to give >>> it any decent formatting is probably more steps than he wanted to go >>> to. >> >> You can get better looking output with troff and TeX than you can >> get with most modern word processors. > >True enough. Now tell someone who makes his living being a creative writer >that he has to go through the trouble of learning troff and/or TeX in order >to format his manuscripts. WordStar is one thing, but this is something >else. Ptui. Read my next paragraph before reacting. > >> Also, they can handle large and complex documents much easier. >> >> Given the terrible UI and file formats of many new word processors, >> they are bad for writers, not good. >> >> They are also not conducive to writing or thinking. I think the >> modern office suite is responsible for a lot of productivity >> loss, not increase. > >I certainly concede that the MS Word file format is useless. > >But most of the people in this thread have complained about the UI problems >as well. Word's UI is nothing if not customizable. You can change the >toolbars, or get rid of them altogether, and even change the layout of the >menus. You can even revert to white text on a blue background. I'm telling you that this [customizing a fucking UI] takes more effort and more knowhow than learning the few commands of a RUNOFF to format. There's no way the fingers can learn an automatic clicking sequence as they can learn an automatic .f;.j;.lm0;.rm70;.b3 before typing in pure text. My fingers have yet to learn how to automate any point-click command. It takes a lot of brain power to do the damned point. If I'm using my brain to aim the icon, I'm not using it to produce anything useful like text or code. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 26 Jan 03 11:53:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1043548618.478655@elaine.furryape.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZbnisrie+HdDkWNvghRdPahx1slInjn4YCkDOYIVGi/lXIUgCoTam7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2003 12:31:20 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127640 In article <1043548618.478655@elaine.furryape.com>, gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) wrote: >In article , >Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >>I remember in college we studied IT efficiency. In one paper they had >>studied the staff requirements for bank processing in the late 50s. While >>the number of clerks doing things like check processing is drastically >>lower now, they said that the total staff for IT is actually much >>larger now. Computerization has decreased efficiency, not increased it. > >But banks are doing a lot of things that the didn't do in the late 50s. >You're not comparing like with like. > >If you got rid of ATMs, EFTPOS terminals, Don't use them. > ...automatic debits, So full of non-checks that I don't use it. > .. systems >where the customers can get instant updates on their balances, I always know my balance. >fraud detection systems, Yea, right. > .. marketing systems, management reporting >systems, instant trading systems, Which don't belong in a bank. > ..and dozens more that I don't know >about, and got the volumes down to what was seen in the 50's, then you >could compare the total staff that IT has replaced. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 26 Jan 03 11:58:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZEW96M9DlMFuc8WDeo1RD2bbB9OntX0+FRqoZp9HmDRYUhKXGUUbLg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2003 12:36:05 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!luth.se!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127642 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, Kelli >Halliburton wrote: >Of course, if you look at your bank statement, you see why. It used >to be that you got a simple line printed bill that was very clear >and told you what you needed to know. Now you get an enveloped >stuff with paper SPAM, and several pages of inefficient laser >printed layout. oh, boy! Have you just pushed a red hot button :-). > >There are *some* good features added, but mostly it's fluff and worse, >some of it degrades the usefulness of the statements. What features. My bank "improved" its statement. I now have to store two pages when they used to ship me one. And I can't handle them because the page folds are perforated (why, I have no idea). Oh, yeah...the second page contains no information at all. It is also more difficult to post from their line entrys. In addition, they reversed the debit/credit columns. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 26 Jan 03 11:59:45 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbs9AYtuTWkk6wbGFG22y9QqdVSmAGKpMaHGczhi7pLgHSJy3l0Arh1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2003 12:37:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127629 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Sat, 25 Jan 03 14:52:10 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article , >> Morten Reistad wrote: > >>>So, an 80W "green" PC is completely out of the question. >>> >>>The salt humidity is the worst offender, but there are nice enclosures >>>for electronics that fit nicely, as well as good shock-absorbers for >>>electronics. These things are not very expensive either; suppliers to >>>fishing vessels usually stock them; and offshore fishermen have a good >>>mentality in demanding things that work. I'll use duplicated disks in >>>any case. >>> >>>The chief worry is the monitor. >> >>Yup. That's what uses up a lot my power. >> >>> .. I'll need a LCD that uses little power, >>>is rugged, light, affordable and can stand marine environments. >>>(I seem to hear someone saying "Good Luck, Jim" whenever I say this). >> >>TTY? > >That's the boat anchor ;^> ROTFL. Right. It can be used for a backup anchor. Multi-tasking is a win in cramped space. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sun, 26 Jan 03 12:49:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYgghOS+4u++1LYEYh2lVgxUyjPYyMAOrHw1ey2Ly8TAUYIqMe34YP2 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jan 2003 13:27:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127647 In article , Philip Newton wrote: >On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:47:43 -0500, Charles Shannon Hendrix > wrote: > >> When I went to try and get an embedded programming job at a shop >> which told me years ago to keep them in mind, I found they do >> everything with WinCE (love how that name works out). >> >> This includes mission critical aviation and military systems. That's >> scary. >> >> Have you heard about the German cars (Mercedes or BMW I think) where >> the on-board WinCE embedded stuff is failing horribly? > >Then you have the issue with support and end-of-life -- MS is phasing >out support for various flavours of Windows; DOS is already unsupported, >and so on. IMO, Ms never supported anything. Distributing the same crap without adequate testing is not the same as support. > >In the recent issue of German computer magazine c't, someone said that >the newest range of sewing machines by one company (Bernina?) are coming >equipped with Windows CE. Good grief. I'd never put my fingers or eyes near a machine like that. > .. He says that (particularly at over $5000 for >one), users expect them to keep running for twenty to thirty years, and >asked what will happen if MS drops support for that flavour of WinCE >because it's reached its "end of lifetime"? You don't know the meaning of "support". That sewing machine example is just another distribution. It has nothing to do with support nor does it imply any support. >Bizarre. I mean, that's like saying your car's servo computer is no >longer supported and if the firmware has a bug they won't fix it even >though the rest of the car works fine. Delivering a bug fix implies a distribution these days. It doesn't imply support. It's more like support de facto. /BAH > >Cheers, >Philip Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 26 Jan 03 19:39:52 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 56 Message-ID: <2624.156T2611T11795680@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-583.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127695 In article jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: >I'm telling you that this [customizing a fucking UI] takes more effort >and more knowhow than learning the few commands of a RUNOFF to >format. There's no way the fingers can learn an automatic >clicking sequence as they can learn an automatic .f;.j;.lm0;.rm70;.b3 >before typing in pure text. True enough. But with most users there's no learning involved anyway. In fact, most users don't _want_ to learn anything, and modern software vendors are more than willing to oblige. Nowadays, "user-friendly" means "easy to figure out all over again each time you use it". There's no learning or memory involved. Those of us who are willing to learn how to use software efficiently are a completely different breed - and we're a small enough minority that our needs and wants carry no weight in most developers' minds. >My fingers have yet to learn how to automate any point-click >command. It takes a lot of brain power to do the damned point. >If I'm using my brain to aim the icon, I'm not using it to >produce anything useful like text or code. IMHO a GUI makes heavy demands on hand-eye co-ordination. You have to carefully position the mouse, then keep it from drifting when clicking a button. (Which button? Click it once or twice? I still get this stuff wrong sometimes.) It takes much less work to press a key or two, on a keyboard where the keys - and your hands - aren't moving. If I'm going to be using a program a lot, learning a few keystrokes is a small investment indeed. But there's nothing to say you can't have the best of both worlds. A good user interface will provide pull-down menus for the functions you're not familiar with - and each entry will have its keyboard equivalent marked on it. If you use a menu entry often enough, you'll start remembering that keyboard equivalent (because you're seeing it each time). In time your most commonly used functions will migrate from the menus to keystrokes, and your efficiency will increase. That's why I hate GUIs which either don't have keyboard equivalents, or which make them so awkward to use that you're forced to stay with the mouse. I know that Hanlon's Razor states "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" - but I have a hard time believing that Microsoft is stupid. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 27 Jan 03 12:03:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <87vg0b40ly.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYP7u4pDsVhaje+nqp5Zt9udLI7bHBs9+Wa72XG76FX8wk/JwvQiWvR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2003 12:41:44 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-255-38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127616 In article <87vg0b40ly.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>, Pascal Bourguignon wrote: > >Charles Shannon Hendrix writes: >> It's not terrible, but it does mean a lot of bulk, and it's wasteful >> to kill that many trees. >> >> I really do puzzle over the form changes they make sometimes. The layout >> at various times defies rational explanation. >> >> My US Sprint phone bills are an exersize in masochistic form design. >> Several pages long, they make an art of burying useful information >> amid tons of wasted toner. I finally got the option of selecting the >> reduced paper format, which is still several pages. > >You must be kidding. What do you think they bought those >sophisticated Xerox laser printer able to print 600 page/mn in >double-face, and even to bind them if you need a book^W multi-hundred >page report? Quite impressive hardware I must say. Well anyway, you >can't ask just a simple sheet we a clear and simple form. This kind >of printer can do much more, and it has to show (or else, how do you >justify their price?) :-) Yea, right. Their paper wastage must be 75%. I sure hope they burn all of it. I don't see how the pages I get survive any feed mechanism. I'm really serious when I say that I can't handle them without tearing. The pages are folded into thirds and each fold is very perforated. My first thought was that the perforations were there so make folding easier but I still cannot see how the pages stay intact. This isn't just about idiotic forms design (I've conceded that none will ever be improved), it's also about the construct of the paper. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 27 Jan 03 13:21:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbrPPyxDTu2j97Glo6kWd+icKTgmy4gzlqDkePVLFU7cCS2zEU9sVUC X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2003 13:59:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-255-38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127643 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> oh, boy! Have you just pushed a red hot button :-). >My US Sprint phone bills are an exersize in masochistic form design. >Several pages long, they make an art of burying useful information >amid tons of wasted toner. I finally got the option of selecting the >reduced paper format, which is still several pages. Ptui on that reduced paper notion. The IRS had such a policy. Yet, their programmers insist that, since I am a female, I will always need a child credit form. Especially since I have never, and will never, declare a dependent claim. OTOH, I usually have to submit a Schedule D. Since I am female, the programmers' assumptions are that the male of the household must be the person to handle that form. Thus, I always have to get the full blown 1040 instructions/schedules in addition to the one that's mailed to me. It would be cheaper to just send me the damned label. At least now they're including the form you need to fill out in order to pay them. The first year, those forms were scarce as hen's teeth. And wilst I'm raving and ranting, let me take this opportunity to lamblast anybody who answers the phone and can't manage to write down my name and mailing address even though I've literally spelled it all out twelve fucking times during long distance calls that I was paying for. What the hell is going on with information recording. It used be not an issue for anybody answering the phone to be able to write down name/address/phone# info on one of those "while you were out" forms. So far, the score is 100% failure with lawyer office help. Most of the others have a rule about screwing up three times before settling down to getting the info correct. My current hypothesis is that data translation is not getting done anymore. That implies that people are stuck with the existing data base of names/addresses/phone#'s. In 20 years, this info will be a commodity because most of it will be invalid due to death and taxes. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 27 Jan 03 13:37:02 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 107 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <2624.156T2611T11795680@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbwpxcHGZkWiPH/DX8zW9cPx1nw0iwVGAZKOpXcBMhUutTMDAwDmfOM X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2003 14:14:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-255-38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127623 In article <2624.156T2611T11795680@kltpzyxm.invalid>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) >writes: > >>I'm telling you that this [customizing a fucking UI] takes more effort >>and more knowhow than learning the few commands of a RUNOFF to >>format. There's no way the fingers can learn an automatic >>clicking sequence as they can learn an automatic .f;.j;.lm0;.rm70;.b3 >>before typing in pure text. > >True enough. But with most users there's no learning involved anyway. >In fact, most users don't _want_ to learn anything, and modern software >vendors are more than willing to oblige. Of course. It's human nature not to have to do extra work. When I started working at DEC, my group called Tape Preparation hired those types of people. Even the lady who had the IQ of an idiot (I think) learned how to do RUNOFF and TECO and all the stuff involved with entering and saving bits (like logging in and PIP and DECtapes). TECO is not for the faint of heart. Once she got the knack of the concepts in her head (this was the difficult step in training her), she was phenomenal and loved it. There was a programmer in that heart of hers. > ... Nowadays, "user-friendly" >means "easy to figure out all over again each time you use it". >There's no learning or memory involved. I disagree here, but I've been accused of being a naif, too. People are basically lazy. This is not lazy. > >Those of us who are willing to learn how to use software efficiently >are a completely different breed - and we're a small enough minority >that our needs and wants carry no weight in most developers' minds. I'd recommend taking a gander at a certain thread in a certain games newsgroup, but it's Monday and I know you don't like being depressed on Mondays. > >>My fingers have yet to learn how to automate any point-click >>command. It takes a lot of brain power to do the damned point. >>If I'm using my brain to aim the icon, I'm not using it to >>produce anything useful like text or code. > >IMHO a GUI makes heavy demands on hand-eye co-ordination. It takes more forebrain cycles than my back end processor that converts printed text into keystrokes. I'd much rather reserve my forebrain for planning than wrestling with a GUI. > ..You have >to carefully position the mouse, then keep it from drifting when >clicking a button. (Which button? Click it once or twice? I still >get this stuff wrong sometimes.) I've got the clicking down to that point where, if I have to think about it, I'll fuck it up. However, my fingers do have a tendency to be over-enthusiastic with the single click and do doubles often. This is a side effect of the fucking mouse interface that requires the double click to be done within such a small window that my fingers have to take advantage of the bounce to get it entered. This is the first reason that it is The User Device From Hell. > >It takes much less work to press a key or two, on a keyboard >where the keys - and your hands - aren't moving. If I'm going >to be using a program a lot, learning a few keystrokes is a small >investment indeed. > >But there's nothing to say you can't have the best of both worlds. >A good user interface will provide pull-down menus for the functions >you're not familiar with - and each entry will have its keyboard >equivalent marked on it. Right. I think we called them exceptions...that's not quite correct. > ..If you use a menu entry often enough, >you'll start remembering that keyboard equivalent (because you're >seeing it each time). In time your most commonly used functions >will migrate from the menus to keystrokes, and your efficiency >will increase. However, the rarely used stuff is at hand without much finger wrestling. This is one of the reasons that VMS was liked out there in the Real Working World (not to be confused with the software development world ;-). > >That's why I hate GUIs which either don't have keyboard equivalents, >or which make them so awkward to use that you're forced to stay with >the mouse. I know that Hanlon's Razor states "Never ascribe to malice >that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" - but I have a >hard time believing that Microsoft is stupid. My term for it is fucking idiot. They have the brains; they have the information; but they still make the decision that can only end up in destruction. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Mon, 27 Jan 03 13:51:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaqWgMFjmdNGPnFX4t5y84JapE4DftwVdD9wpdCMccFx/GZf4ctQmtD X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jan 2003 14:29:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-255-38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127637 In article , "Don Chiasson" wrote: > >"Charles Shannon Hendrix" wrote in message >news:slrnb38r9s.g4.shannon@news.widomaker.com... >> In article , Philip Newton >wrote: >> >> > Then you have the issue with support and end-of-life -- >> > MS is phasing out support for various flavours of >> > Windows; DOS is already unsupported, >> > and so on. >> >> Very good point. >> >> When I was doing embedded work, we worked on the assumption >> that the system had to run for 11 years. A lot of people don't >> realize that its more than just an issue of reliability, we also had >> to choose parts that we knew would still be there in 11 years, >> or would be otherwise servicable. >> >> > equipped with Windows CE. He says that (particularly at >> > over $5000 for one), users expect them to keep running for >> > twenty to thirty years, and asked what will happen if MS >> > drops support for that flavour of WinCE >> > because it's reached its "end of lifetime"? >> >> Great question. I've been thinking about the same thing. To be fair, >> it isn't just M$ that is screwing this up. A lot of software is being >> abandoned rapidly, and that's bad. The disposable consumerism idelogy >> is starting to creep even into the big things now. > >I suggest that when a company drops support for a software product, >the source code with sufficient material to do a build (compilers, >libraries, build files, etc.) become public domain. There are a >number of options for how to do this ranging from open source >to the company retaining the rights and forbidding commercial >use of the software. I would strongly prefer full release. This is a wonderful idea. Most cannot do that. I suspect at least one daren't do that. > >> > Bizarre. I mean, that's like saying your car's servo computer >> > is no longer supported and if the firmware has a bug they >> > won't fix it even though the rest of the car works fine. >> >> [snip re parts availability of 11 year old vehicle] >> >> I can see how adding computer software, especially software >> with closed sources and licensed data, is going to create a >> mess in the future. > >There are people who own and lovingly care for 1960 vintage cars. Does >this mean that in the 2040's there will be no 2000 vintage cars because >they will be impossible to maintain?? That would be sad. These cars will be maintained just like the 1960 (I've never thought of those models as old until just this minute) models are. The parts are glommed or made by hand. Now how they're going to substitute software that's required to run those cars... that's another story. Is it possible to substitute mechanicals for that software? They would probably have to be able to get an emissions waiver. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: 27 Jan 03 15:05:11 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <996.157T585T9054310@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-296.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127673 In article jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: [IRS sending wrong forms no matter how hard you try] >It would be cheaper to just send me the damned label. Labels... don't talk to me about labels. We've given up on ever convincing the Canadian equivalent of the IRS to stop sending us labels, which they helpfully provide to affix to our tax returns so we don't have to remember our names or all the identification numbers they want to see. Somehow they don't realize that many people's accountants not only prepare but send in returns - complete with full information printed on the form by their laser printers. And more and more tax returns are being done electronically. "Your tax dollars at work." Grrr... -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 28 Jan 03 13:16:36 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <4bbaeac09fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVahnV53zlhD+Z9Ag38+LVUCFaLWYNtSuMhkC8C3+koKDA5H7deqRyJB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2003 13:54:41 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-107 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127610 In article <4bbaeac09fdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels wrote: >In article , > wrote: >> What features. My bank "improved" its statement. I now have to >> store two pages when they used to ship me one. And I can't handle >> them because the page folds are perforated (why, I have no idea). >> Oh, yeah...the second page contains no information at all. >> It is also more difficult to post from their line entrys. In >> addition, they reversed the debit/credit columns. > >We get that sort of thing over here too, for example, Mastercard >credit card statements have gone from a single page of B5-ish size >paper to several of A4. BT telephone bills must be the worst: half >a dozen or so pages of confusion when all you want to know is how >much you owe. What's the point? I definitely want everything itemized. My folks were getting ripped off because MCI would switch the long distance from the $.07/minute to a $1/minute rate. I also want to know when Al Gore is sticking it to me; his legacy is alive and well. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 28 Jan 03 13:24:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <2624.156T2611T11795680@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVboClVGjPB2OxL+2mTaL4GHHturBMVMFMyXts5Z9kDTkd2ekWWq+zKU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2003 14:02:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-107 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127622 In article , Ben Hutchings wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>> ..You have >>>to carefully position the mouse, then keep it from drifting when >>>clicking a button. (Which button? Click it once or twice? I still >>>get this stuff wrong sometimes.) >> >> I've got the clicking down to that point where, if I have to think >> about it, I'll fuck it up. However, my fingers do have a >> tendency to be over-enthusiastic with the single click and do >> doubles often. This is a side effect of the fucking mouse interface >> that requires the double click to be done within such a small window >> that my fingers have to take advantage of the bounce to get it entered. >> This is the first reason that it is The User Device From Hell. > > >I have never seen a GUI that required double-clicking and did not >allow the time limit to be adjusted. Also I have seen Windows mouse >software that allows an alternative mechanism; e.g. Logitech 3-button >mice can have the middle button mapped to double-click. I use my middle finger to massage that damned ball. > .. There may be >a standard way to do this with the "Accessibility" features of newer >Windows versions though the only thing I use that for is to get an >audible warning when I hit Caps Lock by accident. Once upon a time, the caps lock had a unique sound. Mine has a light that I can see in the corner of my right eye. (My left eye corner is reserved for noticing modem flashes. I also use my caps-lock key every time I type more than two CAPS in a row (I just did it now). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 28 Jan 03 13:30:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1043548618.478655@elaine.furryape.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZj+DAT5PoNHbNmD3DHK/4ZyzJJmkIrV8QKjpuNIG+NDKV9fKj711r7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2003 14:08:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-107 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127626 In article , "Don Chiasson" wrote: > > wrote in message >news:b10keo$at9$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article <1043548618.478655@elaine.furryape.com>, >> gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) wrote: >> >In article , >> >Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >> >>I remember in college we studied IT efficiency. In one paper >> >>they had studied the staff requirements for bank processing >> >>in the late 50s. While >> >>the number of clerks doing things like check processing >> >>is drastically lower now, they said that the total staff for IT >> >>is actually much larger now. Computerization has >> >>decreased efficiency, not increased it. >> > >> >But banks are doing a lot of things that the didn't do in the >> >late 50s. You're not comparing like with like. > >[snip...] > >> >fraud detection systems, >> >> Yea, right. >> >Well, a friend from the east coast took a holiday on the west coast. >After he got home, he received a call from his bank asking if he had >been charging many thousands of dollars (I think at casinos or something >similar) in Hong Kong. My friend had never been to Hong Kong. He did not >lose his card. Apparently when he charged something at - he thinks - a >restaurant, a staff member must have taken his card information and >someone far away used it. My friend was not out of pocket but it could >have been a problem. > >I don't like anyone tracking my habits, but where credit cards could >expose me to significant liability I want this to happen. Hard >trade-off, and I certainly minimize card usage. That's credit cards, not banks. (yea, yea, I know this biz is in a grey area now). I'm talking about good solid mess prevention. I gave my bank a couple of suggestions and was told that it couldn't be done. Nuts to that. It was three more software-checks/post and would save them lots and lots of money that is spent "fixing" up fuckups. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 28 Jan 03 13:47:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <996.157T585T9054310@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVanrz5sHUifVwZqauC1M5OLUgZd1LZR40VPZ1TCx8MNJVlv3uQ8G2uP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2003 14:25:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-107 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127615 In article <996.157T585T9054310@kltpzyxm.invalid>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) >writes: > >[IRS sending wrong forms no matter how hard you try] > >>It would be cheaper to just send me the damned label. > >Labels... don't talk to me about labels. We've given up on ever >convincing the Canadian equivalent of the IRS to stop sending us >labels, which they helpfully provide to affix to our tax returns >so we don't have to remember our names or all the identification >numbers they want to see. I want the label. My experiences of name and address data entry over the last five years has been a waking nightmare. > ... Somehow they don't realize that many >people's accountants not only prepare but send in returns - complete >with full information printed on the form by their laser printers. >And more and more tax returns are being done electronically. "Your >tax dollars at work." Grrr... If it's a human being doing the data entry, I want the label these days. First of all, the idiots who are writing the software don't seem to know about left and right justifying or zero fill. There exists a government tax program that takes a dollar number and right-justifies it into the cents column. The software that does my water bills is no longer able to handle negative numbers. When I had to get a P.O. Box for my snail mail, it took three tries to get the forwarding information correct in their data base. Let me tell you that I learned more about their data base than I ever wanted to know just by these errors. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 28 Jan 03 13:49:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaPb2YqLTXx+zkBH2gZbXkHAYGYPEhM7kjT96qVjtx8PrS3PgQcwVRS X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2003 14:27:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-107 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127614 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> Ptui on that reduced paper notion. The IRS had such a policy. >> Yet, their programmers insist that, since I am a female, I will >> always need a child credit form. Especially since I have never, >> and will never, declare a dependent claim. > >I don't see why they don't store your preferences. Then again, >it's yet another thing for them to screw up. But they do store the preferences. It's a bias of the programmer that insists that female=children. Social Security has great problems with this. They changed my last name without my permission in their data base just because I got married (this was a long, long time ago). If a female gets married, she's screwed. /BAH > >> What the hell is going on with information recording. It used >> be not an issue for anybody answering the phone to be able to >> write down name/address/phone# info on one of those "while >> you were out" forms. > >The problem is that it's been made pretty much illegal to fire incompetent >people. > >A company I used to work for actually had what they called paperweights. >They were people hired to meet racial quota. They were put in far away >offices, usually alone or in pairs, and given busy work. They were >strictly an expense to meet a stupid regulation. > >In some places, especially government jobs, I've seen people who would >be dead if breathing were voluntary and they had to remember to do it. > >I have no questions whatsover why things are screwed up. > >It really hit home when an MBA on a bank contract had to be taught double >entry accounting before we could complete a program modification request. > >> My current hypothesis is that data translation is not getting >> done anymore. That implies that people are stuck with the >> existing data base of names/addresses/phone#'s. In 20 years, >> this info will be a commodity because most of it will be >> invalid due to death and taxes. > >I'm sure there are problems in this area, but never rule out basic >stupidity. > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Tue, 28 Jan 03 14:37:24 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbcgbgqvL+sma+4NjWGjtBbKQ455gpe+nUpocYqmqvpTGs89n3ebMkx X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2003 15:15:28 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-107 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127630 In article , "Christopher McNabb" wrote: >On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:49:31 +0000, jmfbahci wrote: > >> If a female gets married, she's screwed. >And quite often, even if she doesn't get married.... Nope. Not in the same way. All of boxes automatically get checked once the marriage certificate is signed. What I find interesting is that sort order differs w.r.t. distribution when sex has nothing to do with the materials getting distributed. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <4gu33v0d01umk65k7qtuvqsnfdcql1m96b@4ax.com> References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <35mq0b.2bm.ln@innovative.iinet.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:53:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1043463226 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:53:46 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 19:53:46 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127757 On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:23:31 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >stanb45@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: > >>On Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:38:00 +0000 (UTC), Peter Corlett >> wrote: >>>Stan Barr wrote: >>>[...] >>>> Sheesh! Is that how much you pay for electricity?? 100KWh would >>>> cost me 1.28 GBP, plus VAT at 17.5%, say around $2.36 total. > >>>You're paying 1.28p/kWh? I doubt it, unless you're an electricity >>>company buying and selling megawatts of it wholesale. > >>You're quite right! I happned have my bill on my desk when I was >>reading the original post and I glanced quickly at it and saw >>"1.279p per Kilowatt- hour" and fired of a posting without reading >>tooo carefully. My energy supplier quotes *gas* charges in KW/h! >>Logical enough, I suppose, but confusing. > >Makes as much sense as charging in MJ. > >No... it's not logical. It's only logical if you burn it in >sufficient air. > >Imagine being charged for a gas leak in MJ. > >Should be charged in kg, as should gasoline, etc. Raw (untreated) gas is charged for, bought, and sold in volume units (1000m3/MMCF) by the pipelines who transport it from the wells to the gas plants. Residue dry (treated) gas is charged for, bought, and sold in energy units (GJ/MMBTU/DTh) by the pipelines who transport it from the gas plants to the distributors. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:09:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1043514559 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:09:19 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:09:19 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127727 On Sat, 25 Jan 03 14:52:10 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > Morten Reistad wrote: >>So, an 80W "green" PC is completely out of the question. >> >>The salt humidity is the worst offender, but there are nice enclosures >>for electronics that fit nicely, as well as good shock-absorbers for >>electronics. These things are not very expensive either; suppliers to >>fishing vessels usually stock them; and offshore fishermen have a good >>mentality in demanding things that work. I'll use duplicated disks in >>any case. >> >>The chief worry is the monitor. > >Yup. That's what uses up a lot my power. > >> .. I'll need a LCD that uses little power, >>is rugged, light, affordable and can stand marine environments. >>(I seem to hear someone saying "Good Luck, Jim" whenever I say this). > >TTY? That's the boat anchor ;^> Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 11:04:41 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3E32D1B9.6010609@jetnet.ab.ca> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20021005 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127596 somebody wrote: >I will upgrade the batteries to around 480 Ah of 12V power. This is a >lot for a boat that size. The largest power-eater is the fridge, it >eats 6A (or 70W) constantly (yes; it is a Peltier-element). {snip} >Navigation instruments use 4.5A, radio 1.2A on standby. A big >land-based charger will charge to 80% in 5 hours. The engine >alternator delivers 120A at 14.5V. (cooking is from propane gas, >heating from a paraffine burner).I am considering options for 220V AC. >All of this are rather rare items on a boat of less than 45-50 feet. >Normal battery banks are 120-200 Ah, land chargers charge that in >12+ hours, alternators normally give 50-70A. If you got propane why use a electric fridge? Ben. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 90 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:46:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043529349 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:15:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:15:49 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127571 In article <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com>, Kelli Halliburton wrote: >> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:27:28 -0000 >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> >>> I'll tell you what I hated most about him... He had all this >>> monsterous kit and he ran MS-DOS on them... I was practically >>> screaming at the pages to run something more useful on them - like >>> UNIX... >> >> ISTR him sayng he didn't like UNIX, I forget the reasons. > > Crptc cmd ln? :) > > No intergrated word processing program? For an author, that would be a > serious problem. Not true. Pournelle did several books on a CP/M system, and before that I'm sure he used a typewriter. > Editing a book in vi and then having to go back and troff it to give > it any decent formatting is probably more steps than he wanted to go > to. You can get better looking output with troff and TeX than you can get with most modern word processors. Also, they can handle large and complex documents much easier. Given the terrible UI and file formats of many new word processors, they are bad for writers, not good. They are also not conducive to writing or thinking. I think the modern office suite is responsible for a lot of productivity loss, not increase. It used to be that you wrote things down and had an office professional produce the final document. Now people with no documentation skills at all are responsible for this. I read a paper about office inefficiency one time and they talked about how the personal computer has moved the workload from specialized staff trained in various business functions to even the lowest and most unskilled workers. Even highly skilled workers are not experts in everything. It's a mess. I remember in college we studied IT efficiency. In one paper they had studied the staff requirements for bank processing in the late 50s. While the number of clerks doing things like check processing is drastically lower now, they said that the total staff for IT is actually much larger now. Computerization has decreased efficiency, not increased it. Of course, if you look at your bank statement, you see why. It used to be that you got a simple line printed bill that was very clear and told you what you needed to know. Now you get an enveloped stuff with paper SPAM, and several pages of inefficient laser printed layout. There are *some* good features added, but mostly it's fluff and worse, some of it degrades the usefulness of the statements. You can pretty well apply this to every company's communications now. I won't even get into the office memos at one job, where I saw MBAs spend five minutes writing bad english, and 30 minutes playing with fonts. The final memo had 3 fonts, graphics, and several colors. Instead of clear B&W on a laser printer at $0.0005/page, we got smeary color prints at $0.40/page. Gotta love technological progress... :) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <20030119085000.51b0ec60.steveo@eircom.net> <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 39 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:50:50 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043532951 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:51 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127792 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: > Troff ? My groff setup actually produces pretty nice looking stuff. > What the hell is wrong with LaTeX ? Both Troff an LaTeX have been > used to format a lot of books (as has Troff for that matter). Oddly Nothing, I love it. I think some publishers used to use TeX to do layout on their computerized presses. They evidently translated the original files to TeX format to drive the printing. There were other methods used too, but I have lost the paper I had on it. I talked to a guy that did book and magazine type printing, and he said his business got hellish when he started getting documents in Microsoft formats. All the previous stuff was relatively easy to translate to the form he wanted, but the Word stuff always required a lot of editing. > Sure LaTeX and Troff ain't everyone's cup of tea, but the former is well > known to produce excellent quality output with practically *zero* layout The thing is, once you learn it, it's not that big a deal. Also, for the low-skill workers, you can create easy templates for them to use. Its easy for them, and you also get a standard look to your documents and they don't waste time playing. In fact, if you must use Word, you owe it to yourself to restrict the fiddling, or people will waste time and produce crap. Word and others like it also suck because most good writing is about banging out words, and editing them. The overhead of a modern WP gets in the way of this process far too much. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <2479.150T215T11343728@kltpzyxm.invalid> <8seX9.410494$F2h1.371457@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 17 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:03:31 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043532953 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:53 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:53 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.algonet.se!algonet!nntp.abs.net!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127797 In article , Roland Hutchinson wrote: > Thou sayest. Have you actually timed how much quicker it is? Have you > timed it on a system where the menu bar is in the correct place for > quick mouse-driven interaction (at the top of the screen, not the top > of the window), rather than where Microsoft Windows puts it, and there > aren't two clusters of unnecessary keys to hop over in order to grab > the mouse? I think Dennis Ritchie wrote something about this subject in the Plan 9 documentation. I didn't agree with all of Plan 9's assertion about mouse use, but certainly it is interesting reading. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <9y0X9.96$6g1.90@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com> <1fp3m2h.yy1mckegarpoN%lars@bearnip.com> <899.151T116T5903453@kltpzyxm.invalid> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 54 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:19:11 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043532954 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:54 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127569 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > We're a dying breed. We used to ship GNU Make (with sources, so don't > worry) with some of our embedded products that were hosted on Windows > so that users could build examples the way we did. Turned out that > modern users just don't know, understand or like make - we had to > revert to batch files. Same here. I was doing VxWorks on 68K in 1994-1995, and everything was make or scripts (we hosted on SunOS). But the next version of VxWorks kits (Tornado I believe) was hosted on Windows. My biggest problem with IDEs, besides them not working like I think, is the horrible mess they create in the files. I don't see any reason why an IDE should not be able to create clean, uncluttered, and easy-to-edit source and build files. > Most of them these days, of course, rarely see a command line - the IDE > shields them from it all. It's worrying how many less experienced embedded > developers have no clear idea of the different passes of a compiler, > the workings of a linker, how object files and executable images are > built... I've even seen some who didn't clearly understand the > difference between a compiler and an interpreter. I see this a lot in Java/C# programmers. They have very little clue about computers in general. But, they are buzzword compliant, and they take a lot of work from C/Perl/whatever programmers. I also am tiring of the mythology about Java portability. I've seen teams spend a lot of time porting Java code. I've also written a lot of C and Perl that I ran on a variety of systems without porting. Java sounds ideal on paper, but it has issues. > I assume things are even worse in mainstream IT. Fortunately I work in a > strange middle ground that's half deeply-embedded and baby micros and > half Unix and networking - I miss out on all the "commercial" stuff ;) I wish I could find some embedded work like that. It has been years, but I think I'm re-trainable. I loved it because you were working with the real world, and it's hard for management to argume with the laws of physics. Sure, stupid things still happened in embedded projects I worked on, but it was nothing like doing business programming. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030112210440.03223.00000520@mb-cc.aol.com> <1rc42vskard24u7jr9g20ucj6ko4fqbtrd@4ax.com> <2sk72vk94499veofekouk91nd3ado92111@4ax.com> <4aua2v0fd0tsqjone9mrhsdhl9tf3tlpj9@4ax.com> <3E258B19.5000702@jetnet.ab.ca> <3e2d4aa1$0$221$4d4eb98e@read-nat.news.uk.uu.net> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 10 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:21:09 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043532955 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:55 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:55 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntp01.fccn.pt!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127799 In article <3e2d4aa1$0$221$4d4eb98e@read-nat.news.uk.uu.net>, Asher Hoskins wrote: > "Circuit Cellar". Info from http://www.circuitcellar.com/. Yes, excellent stuff. I wish I'd never left embedded work sometimes. I like big systems, but not the politics that go with it. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <20030121005235.11866.00000132@mb-mr.aol.com> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 33 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:34:58 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043532956 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:56 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntp01.fccn.pt!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127784 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > It sure does. The difference is about 75-100 Kw-hours on > my bill. That's five bucks..almost enough to buy two gallons > of milk. You can trim the power usage quite a bit. That's one reason I run old UNIX workstations as my always-on servers. They are fast enough for the job, and more reliable than some power hungry Wintel CPU anyway. You can also build more miserly PCs, but some things are unavoidable, as CPUs, memory, and graphics cards these days eat a lot of juice. I do a lot of long-term work, so turning machines off at night is harder for me. > In this modern day and age of computers in everything but > the kitchen sink, I have a distrust of leaving gear on their > own; they don't seem to think very well for themselves. Mine do that just fine. I think it depends on the OS you use, and your own abilities. With a good UNIX server, it's going to run as well as you tell it to. They can, after all, only do what you tell them. My little NetBSD server is going on 2.5 years without a hitch. My Windows stuff? It requires more maintenance and disaster recovery every month its used that my servers need in years. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:39:30 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043532957 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:57 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127782 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: > My "always-on" box is a Mini-ITX box that uses 8 watts of power; with > peaks to around 22 watts on heavy disk and network usage. It has an > internal DC-DC power that takes 12V DC from the outside world. I have > fed it from a car battery as UPS: This UPS will hold for nearly three > days. Do you have details on it anywhere? I want to try and built a small, quiet system for desktop and server use. My biggest beef though, is the need for graphics with a PC. Of course, after install Linux and FreeBSD will use a serial console. > whetstones and 600k drystones, or slightly less than a fourth of a > Cray-1 by yesteryears. What CPU? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:47:43 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043532958 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:15:58 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!nntp01.fccn.pt!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127793 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: > Also I suspect that phones/pdas will really change it, MS has > been desperately trying to force their way into that segment for > many years without much in the way of success. People really True, but the success they have had is disturbing. When I went to try and get an embedded programming job at a shop which told me years ago to keep them in mind, I found they do everything with WinCE (love how that name works out). This includes mission critical aviation and military systems. That's scary. Have you heard about the German cars (Mercedes or BMW I think) where the on-board WinCE embedded stuff is failing horribly? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030121175404.13253.00000281@mb-fe.aol.com> <4bb8f196afdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Organization: Big Endian Reply-To: cshNOSPAM@NOSPAM.widomaker.com Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:50:11 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.96.185.75 X-Trace: sydney.visi.net 1043536549 209.96.185.75 (Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:15:49 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 18:15:49 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!207.99.101.34.MISMATCH!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!newsxfer.visi.net!sydney.visi.net!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127791 In article <4bb8f196afdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels wrote: > Well, in the UK there is a range of ARM-based desktop computers. A > new one was launched at the end of last year which uses a 600Mhz > XScale (Intel's version of the ARM). 600Mhz is laughable in the PC > world but on these machines it is as fast as it gets. On the > other hand, these machines have a simple, lightweight OS called > RISC OS that allows you to use those 600MHz for running programs > rather than keeping the animated eye candy going. It is not the I'd like to have one of these, but they are practically non-existent in the US. Europe and the UK maintained microcomputer variety for a lot longer than we did over here. The RISC OS stuff does look interesting. The most promising non Wintel/UNIX thing over here right now is the open source revivals of BeOS, though there are a few other low-key items. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 30 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:39:57 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1043539202 212.186.246.50 (Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:00:02 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127681 According to Brian Inglis : >On Sat, 25 Jan 03 14:52:10 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article , >> Morten Reistad wrote: > >>>So, an 80W "green" PC is completely out of the question. >> >>TTY? > >That's the boat anchor ;^> A good friend of mine whos shall remain nameless had great personal satisfaction of redeploying 4 old Univac tape drives that had made his life miserable for a number of years. They now have a perfect service record of keeping his mooring in place for more than a decade. This is the first time they have anyting near a perfect record of service. I just wanted to play with the capacitors. 1.4 Farad per drive. Add 4 of these; and you could make a SPECTACULAR electronic flash out of a couple of normal fluorescant tubes. We still wonder if the EMP pulse from such a flash would have been strong enough to gather attention from three letter agencies. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> <3E32D1B9.6010609@jetnet.ab.ca> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 26 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:42:55 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1043539202 212.186.246.50 (Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:00:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:00:02 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.magnet.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127692 According to : >somebody wrote: >>I will upgrade the batteries to around 480 Ah of 12V power. This is a >>lot for a boat that size. The largest power-eater is the fridge, it >>eats 6A (or 70W) constantly (yes; it is a Peltier-element). >{snip} >>Navigation instruments use 4.5A, radio 1.2A on standby. A big >>land-based charger will charge to 80% in 5 hours. The engine >>alternator delivers 120A at 14.5V. (cooking is from propane gas, >>heating from a paraffine burner).I am considering options for 220V AC. >>All of this are rather rare items on a boat of less than 45-50 feet. >>Normal battery banks are 120-200 Ah, land chargers charge that in >>12+ hours, alternators normally give 50-70A. > >If you got propane why use a electric fridge? Good question. Mostly paranoia about having the propane turned on at all times. Reminding self about installing gas detectors in the bilge. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: YKYBHTLW... From: Morten Reistad References: <20030120073955.2e41b856.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <5bav0b.704.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 189 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:32:37 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1043541607 212.186.246.50 (Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:40:07 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 01:40:07 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:127686 According to Charles Shannon Hendrix : >In article , Morten Reistad wrote: > >> My "always-on" box is a Mini-ITX box that uses 8 watts of power; with >> peaks to around 22 watts on heavy disk and network usage. It has an >> internal DC-DC power that takes 12V DC from the outside world. I have >> fed it from a car battery as UPS: This UPS will hold for nearly three >> days. > >Do you have details on it anywhere? Sorry for regular readers if this is long, but several a.f.c.ers has sent mail about this. Any suggestions for appropriate news group? CD-ROM, Enclosure, ram and CPU bought from www.mini-itx.com. They take 30mm high ram which may or may not be difficult to obtain. Stock "green" IDE disk bought from local PC-pusher in shopping mall. Assemble and boot FreeBSD 4.7 from CD. FreeBSD 4.7 and Mini-ITX has obviously not been tested much together, but the issues were mostly with the 800 MHz C3 via (that has a fan) : CPU: VIA C3 Samuel 2 (800.03-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "CentaurHauls" Id = 0x678 Stepping = 8 Features=0x803035 .... The vr (etherner) driver needs a little patch which FreeBSD has not absorbed in their "stable" yet, although the vr driver is finally back on their development agenda. Not a big deal, just annoying. Probably fixed RSN. The VR hardware sometimes thinks it has dropped a packet, when in most cases it has not. FreeBSD then does extensive reinitiallization of the hardware, taking it offline for some time. (seconds). The patch for now is just to ignore the dropped-packet bit. (/usr/src/sys/pci/if_vr.c, line 1206, remove reference to VR_ISR_RX_DROPPED). Also, there were some minor points with configuring XFree86. Device section of config : Section "Device" #Option "ShadowFB" # [] #Option "VGAClocks" # [] Identifier "Card0" Driver "vga" VendorName "Trident" BoardName "CyberBlade/i1" BusID "PCI:1:0:0" EndSection The install did not find this card by itself, I had to select it. After that everything was smooth configuration. And, FreeBSD gets confused regarding the sound driver. Fixed with correct kernel directive. Important bits from kernel config file : machine i386 #cpu I386_CPU #cpu I486_CPU #cpu I586_CPU cpu I686_CPU ident mrr-1111 maxusers 256 [snip] I removed all SCSI controllers. Also remove sio1, as it does not exist. ISA and PCMCIA nic's and wireless stuff can also be removed. This reduces boot time my almost a minute. Also remove the "device pcm0 at isa? irq 10 drq 1 flags 0x0" and replace with just "device pcm". If you don't do this FreeBSD gets confused regarding the sound hardware. No need to worry if you don't use sound. >I want to try and built a small, quiet system for desktop and server use. > >My biggest beef though, is the need for graphics with a PC. Of course, >after install Linux and FreeBSD will use a serial console. Unfortunatly there is only one serial port, and I use that for the GSM .. uh .. Modem. >> whetstones and 600k drystones, or slightly less than a fourth of a >> Cray-1 by yesteryears. > >What CPU? It is the 533 Mhz Eden with a "green" disk that goes in semi-standby when it is not accessed a lot. Since you run FreeBSD I'll just copy the dmesg, as this gives a pretty good description about what hardware is actually present.(this is from my initial install) : Copyright (c) 1992-2002 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.7-RC2 #1: Fri Oct 18 14:42:13 CEST 2002 mrr@eden.reistad.priv.no:/usr/src/sys/compile/mrr-eden-1020 Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: VIA C3 Samuel 2 (533.35-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "CentaurHauls" Id = 0x673 Stepping = 3 Features=0x803035 real memory = 260046848 (253952K bytes) avail memory = 248877056 (243044K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc0412000. md0: Malloc disk Using $PIR table, 5 entries at 0xc00fdc70 npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface pcib0: on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 pci1: at 0.0 irq 11 isab0: at device 17.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0xd000-0xd00f at device 17.1 on pci0 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 uhci0: port 0xd400-0xd41f irq 5 at device 17.2 on pci0 usb0: on uhci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: VIA UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered uhci1: port 0xd800-0xd81f irq 5 at device 17.3 on pci0 usb1: on uhci1 usb1: USB revision 1.0 uhub1: VIA UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered chip1: at device 17.4 on pci0 chip2: port 0xe400-0xe403,0xe000-0xe003,0xdc00-0xdcff irq 10 at device 17.5 on pci0 vr0: port 0xe800-0xe8ff mem 0xe3000000-0xe30000ff irq 11 at device 18.0 on pci0 vr0: Ethernet address: 00:40:63:c0:37:d8 miibus0: on vr0 ukphy0: on miibus0 ukphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto orm0: