From: thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 11 Dec 2002 07:10:49 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.138.200.235 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1039619449 13200 127.0.0.1 (11 Dec 2002 15:10:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2002 15:10:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123895 CDC Cyber mainframes are about to have a comeback on your desktop PC. After a few months of hard work I have created a quite impressive emulation of a CDC Cyber (6x00, 7x and 170). It runs SMM diagnostics with all the games/toys such as ADC, BAT, WRM, TEN, TOY, DOG, BBP etc. It also runs the Chippewa OS handcoded in octal by Seymour Cray. It is getting close to deadstart NOS 1.3 and NOS 2.8.1. The emulation runs faster then the original on a AMD Athlon 1800+ based Win98/NT machine. Watch out for the "Desktop Cyber 1.0" - it will be released before Christmas in full source free of charge in the hope that it will generate new interest in Seymour Cray's fantastic creations. I would like to maintain the copyright just to avoid some commercial interest appropriating my hard work. Other than that I would like to encourage free distribution of the source, binaries, ideas etc. Best regards Tom Hunter ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 39 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:48:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1039628919 206.146.76.206 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:48:39 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:48:39 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123922 On 11 Dec 2002 07:10:49 -0800, Tom Hunter wrote: >CDC Cyber mainframes are about to have a comeback on your desktop PC. Yay! >After a few months of hard work I have created a quite impressive >emulation of a CDC Cyber (6x00, 7x and 170). It runs SMM diagnostics >with all the games/toys such as ADC, BAT, WRM, TEN, TOY, DOG, BBP etc. >It also runs the Chippewa OS handcoded in octal by Seymour Cray. It is >getting close to deadstart NOS 1.3 and NOS 2.8.1. The emulation runs >faster then the original on a AMD Athlon 1800+ based Win98/NT machine. What compiler is the emulator written for? Also, are the diagnostic code and OSes you mention redistributable? (Was it copyrighted? (If it was written before 1 January 1978 and does not contain copyright statements, it is not. (This is true only in the US, but since that's where the software in question was written, that applies.)) If so, who owns the copyrights now, and are they willing to allow distribution?) After all, an emulation isn't very interesting if there's no thing to run on it. >Watch out for the "Desktop Cyber 1.0" - it will be released before >Christmas in full source free of charge in the hope that it will >generate new interest in Seymour Cray's fantastic creations. I would >like to maintain the copyright just to avoid some commercial interest >appropriating my hard work. Other than that I would like to encourage >free distribution of the source, binaries, ideas etc. You need to decide exactly what you consider permissible and impermissible uses of your code. (Can others include pieces in their work? Can they distribute the package intact? How about in modified form?) Once you've done that, I would STRONGLY recommend that you go to the Open Source Initiative web site at http://www.opensource.org and look through the licenses listed there, then pick one that matches your objectives the most closely. You need to do that before you release the code in order to protect your rights as well as making sure people understand what they can do with it. I'm looking forward to seeing this...the very first computer system I ever used was a 6600 running KRONOS in 1974. ###### Message-ID: <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:14:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.170.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1039634078 12.90.170.161 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:14:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:14:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123912 Tom Hunter wrote: > ... snip ... > > Watch out for the "Desktop Cyber 1.0" - it will be released before > Christmas in full source free of charge in the hope that it will > generate new interest in Seymour Cray's fantastic creations. I would > like to maintain the copyright just to avoid some commercial interest > appropriating my hard work. Other than that I would like to encourage > free distribution of the source, binaries, ideas etc. Use the GNU license. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:25:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1039634744 206.146.76.206 (Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:25:44 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:25:44 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123917 On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:14:38 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: >Tom Hunter wrote: >> Watch out for the "Desktop Cyber 1.0" - it will be released before >> Christmas in full source free of charge in the hope that it will >> generate new interest in Seymour Cray's fantastic creations. I would >> like to maintain the copyright just to avoid some commercial interest >> appropriating my hard work. Other than that I would like to encourage >> free distribution of the source, binaries, ideas etc. >Use the GNU license. Please, don't just select the GNU license because it's fashionable. Look closely at all of the Open Source Definition compliant licenses, then pick the one that meets your objectives. In particular, I would implore you not to pick the GPL unless you explicitly wish to buy into all of the politics that it carries with it. Otherwise, there are many, many better licenses available. ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:35:18 -0500 Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3df79378_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1039635320 204.250.0.238 (11 Dec 2002 14:35:20 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.123!uunet!sac.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123915 "Jay Maynard" wrote in message news:slrnavf49o.h1i.jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx... > On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:14:38 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: > >Tom Hunter wrote: > >> Watch out for the "Desktop Cyber 1.0" - it will be released before > >> Christmas in full source free of charge in the hope that it will > >> generate new interest in Seymour Cray's fantastic creations. I would > >> like to maintain the copyright just to avoid some commercial interest > >> appropriating my hard work. Other than that I would like to encourage > >> free distribution of the source, binaries, ideas etc. > >Use the GNU license. > > Please, don't just select the GNU license because it's fashionable. Look > closely at all of the Open Source Definition compliant licenses, then pick > the one that meets your objectives. In particular, I would implore you not > to pick the GPL unless you explicitly wish to buy into all of the politics > that it carries with it. Otherwise, there are many, many better licenses > available. I think this makes good sense. I offer up the GPL to people as only one possible example of open source licensing. With all due respect to Richard Stallman, there are other modes of licensing (I was an early Stallman fan, and still resect his ideas). -dq ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 11 Dec 2002 13:34:03 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1039638844 21765 128.123.64.113 (11 Dec 2002 20:34:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2002 20:34:04 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123927 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > > Please, don't just select the GNU license because it's fashionable. Look > closely at all of the Open Source Definition compliant licenses, then pick > the one that meets your objectives. In particular, I would implore you not > to pick the GPL unless you explicitly wish to buy into all of the politics > that it carries with it. Otherwise, there are many, many better licenses > available. The advice to look at the various open source licenses and pick the right one was good (and a better suggestion than I made by e-mail, which was GPL). All the same, a license is a license. GPL should be picked it those are the terms you like; whether you agree with the politics is irrelevant. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:02:44 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123940 In alt.folklore.computers CBFalconer wrote: > Use the GNU license. > BSD, please. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 12 Dec 2002 00:13:11 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 63 Message-ID: <6uisy0i1yw.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1039648397 343 10.0.3.2 (11 Dec 2002 23:13:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2002 23:13:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123959 thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) writes: > Christmas in full source free of charge in the hope that it will > generate new interest in Seymour Cray's fantastic creations. I would > like to maintain the copyright just to avoid some commercial interest > appropriating my hard work. Other than that I would like to encourage > free distribution of the source, binaries, ideas etc. "commercial interest"? I think you can remove that tinfoil hat. You may like your project a lot, which is understandable. But really it is not the center of generating endless riches (or threatening someones riches), of prime interest to all the greediest corporations and their phalanxes of lawyers. Face it: Your program will interest people who worked on these machines (for sentimental reasons) and museums and universities (for teaching computing history) and a few other similar people who admire elegant technology for their pleasure. Any commercially important code that ran on these machines, has long ago (decades) been ported to newer machines. So there is about $0 to be made from selling copies of your program. So the commercial world will ignore you to 100%. As for "appropriating": Code is not an physical object, so one can not take it away (delete your copy). And as for forbidding your using of it, that is impossible, unless you either make some transfer of ownership contract with someone (so don't do any contracts), or broke some patent (and then you have already lost, no matter what you do). After all that, I see that both the GNU GPL and BSD parties have mentioned their licenses. So here a plea for the alternative to such licenses: Enrich society by placing it in the public domain! Copyright exists for the sole purpose of restricting others use, usually with the aim of furthering your financial (or ideological in case of GNU) desires. Licenses are contracts that describe how much restriction you impose (actually how much you allow, as the law defaults to "nothing allowed"). As you want to "encourage free distribution" the best thing is to put in no restrictions at all, that is drop copyright, which is legally done by placing something in the public domain. Just look at Jay Maynards many questions. Going through all that (posing them to every developer) and answering all them (by every developer), renegotiation not fitting ones ... is all the time wasting (would you not prefer to program?) hassle that licenses have imposed on people. Just say no to them. Set your stuff free. Neil "my PDP-10 clone project is public domain" Franklin -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 12 Dec 2002 01:26:52 GMT Organization: Furryape Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1039656412.171525@elaine.furryape.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-578.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Cache-Post-Path: elaine.furryape.com!unknown@elaine.furryape.com X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:123995 In article <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >> >> Please, don't just select the GNU license because it's fashionable. Look >> closely at all of the Open Source Definition compliant licenses, then pick >> the one that meets your objectives. In particular, I would implore you not >> to pick the GPL unless you explicitly wish to buy into all of the politics >> that it carries with it. Otherwise, there are many, many better licenses >> available. > >The advice to look at the various open source licenses and pick the >right one was good (and a better suggestion than I made by e-mail, >which was GPL). Or even better, pick multiple ones if that's what suits you. Perl is licensed under both the GPL and the Artistic license, because Larry Wall doesn't agree with 100% of the stuff in the GPL. ###### From: thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 12 Dec 2002 21:10:08 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 59 Message-ID: <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.23.27.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1039756208 958 127.0.0.1 (13 Dec 2002 05:10:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2002 05:10:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124098 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote in message news:... > On 11 Dec 2002 07:10:49 -0800, Tom Hunter wrote: > >CDC Cyber mainframes are about to have a comeback on your desktop PC. > > Yay! > > What compiler is the emulator written for? The emulator is written in plain C using MS Visual Studio 6.0. The MS Win32 API calls for the low-level console graphics are located in a single tiny file (17 kb). The rest (25 other source files) is completely platform independent although you need 64 bit integer support (e.g. longlong (GNU) or _int64 (MS)). A port to for example LINUX or FreeBSD with X11 should only take a few hours (if you are knowledgeable with X11 - which I am not). Please don't flame me for the choice of platform and compiler - they simply happen to be on my desktop at work and home. I have no special allegiance to any WINTEL stuff. > Also, are the diagnostic code and > OSes you mention redistributable? The Chippewa OS is not copyrighted and will be included with the emulator. SMM diagnostics and NOS 1.3 are copyrighted and the successor to CDC (Syntegra) is keen to keep it that way. I tried to obtain an academic/hobbyist license from Syntegra, but they refused. They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. Maybe someone in a country with less stringent copyright rules then Australia could put up for download some of the CDC Cyber OS binaries and sources. I am happy to supply software to read the original OS tapes on a UNIX/SCSI setup. > You need to decide exactly what you consider permissible and impermissible > uses of your code. (Can others include pieces in their work? Can they > distribute the package intact? How about in modified form?) There seems to be a lot of concern about the licensing (some of it is very political). I frankly don't really care what you do with the sources as long as you don't claim you wrote it and if you distribute a modified version include a note saying so. Also given that Syntegra has been *extremely* unhelpful, I would like to prevent them using this for commercial gain - everyone else (including Syntegra employees) is welcome to use it for anything including commercial gain of any sort. As I understand there a still a number of sites running CDC Cybers and paying a small fortune to Syntegra for maintenance and support. > I'm looking forward to seeing this...the very first computer system I ever > used was a 6600 running KRONOS in 1974. Kronos would be a very nice addition to the emulation - have you still got deadstart and source tapes? Best regards Tom Hunter ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 9 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:52:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1039769526 206.146.76.206 (Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:52:06 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 02:52:06 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124054 On 12 Dec 2002 21:10:08 -0800, Tom Hunter wrote: >> I'm looking forward to seeing this...the very first computer system I ever >> used was a 6600 running KRONOS in 1974. >Kronos would be a very nice addition to the emulation - have you still >got deadstart and source tapes? Nope...never had them. When I was using the system, it was as a junior high and high school student on a system shared throughout southeast Texas (the Region IV system, if anyone else out there remembers that one). ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 13 Dec 2002 08:36:35 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1039793795 23502 128.123.64.113 (13 Dec 2002 15:36:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2002 15:36:35 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124055 thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) writes: > > Please don't flame me for the choice of platform and compiler - they > simply happen to be on my desktop at work and home. I have no special > allegiance to any WINTEL stuff. Hmmm.... as if I had time for another project.... but getting that going on Linux would sure be fun.... > > Also, are the diagnostic code and > > OSes you mention redistributable? > > The Chippewa OS is not copyrighted and will be included with the > emulator. SMM diagnostics and NOS 1.3 are copyrighted and the > successor to CDC (Syntegra) is keen to keep it that way. I tried to > obtain an academic/hobbyist license from Syntegra, but they refused. > They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there someplace??? -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 13 Dec 2002 08:46:46 -0800 X-Trace: 13 Dec 2002 08:46:46 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124049 In article <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >> They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. > >Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there >someplace??? Sure. S/N 1 6600. S/N 1 7600. Not runnable (Freon). ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 13 Dec 2002 11:36:09 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1br8cllqau.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1039804567 16655 128.123.64.113 (13 Dec 2002 18:36:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2002 18:36:07 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124066 eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) writes: > > Sure. > S/N 1 6600. > S/N 1 7600. > Not runnable (Freon). Two more reasons why I've got to get to that museum someday... I didn't know the 7600 used Freon cooling: I'd thought the Cray-1 was the first with that. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 13 Dec 2002 21:02:52 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6u4r9hsn4j.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1039809777 368 10.0.3.2 (13 Dec 2002 20:02:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2002 20:02:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124117 thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) writes: > jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote in message news:... > > > You need to decide exactly what you consider permissible and impermissible > > uses of your code. (Can others include pieces in their work? Can they > > distribute the package intact? How about in modified form?) > > There seems to be a lot of concern about the licensing (some of it is > very political). Welcome to todays world, where politicians and lawyers have created a "culture" of fear, and a society of scared running animals. And where law is used as a weapon to achieve ones goals of offence, and not as defence against being victimised. And where fighting for ones license and against the others is strategic buildup for future cases. Once we spent our time programming and gave it away. Today we have to waste it fighting the politicians game, on their court, and a their terms, to prevent being eaten up by them. > I frankly don't really care what you do with the > sources as long as you don't claim you wrote it and if you distribute > a modified version include a note saying so. That would be roughly BSD license. > Also given that Syntegra has been *extremely* unhelpful, I would like > to prevent them using this for commercial gain - everyone else Hmmm. I know of no pre-made license with provisions for such terms. Looks like you will need an custom license, or some sort of "license A but with this special case". BSD would allow that. Public domain is out (no restrictions), GPL I do not know if it allows such restrictions (its basic ideology disapproves of them as freedom limiting, but the exact text may allow it). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 14 Dec 02 08:41:54 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <1119.113T2715T5215908@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-331.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124152 In article darkboo-remove-this-ng.@hotmail.com (Rupert Pigott) writes: >"Brian Inglis" wrote in message >news:32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com... > >> On 13 Dec 2002 08:46:46 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) >> wrote: >> >>> In article <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, >>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >>> >>>>> They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. >>>> >>>>Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there >>>>someplace??? >>> >>>Sure. >>>S/N 1 6600. >>>S/N 1 7600. >>>Not runnable (Freon). >> >> Only in certain countries. > >I'm guessing that for a suitably large fee one could have them filled >with something legal. Heck, for a suitably large fee (to the right people) I bet you could still run it with Freon. :-) -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 14 Dec 02 08:52:21 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <1139.113T1057T5324330@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1039808641snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-333.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124151 In article <1039808641snz@dsl.co.uk> bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: >In article <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> > pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu "Joe Pfeiffer" writes: > >> All the same, a license is a license. > >Except in the UK and other English-speaking countries, where it's a >licence. > >It seems a shame that AmEnglish has lost the useful distinction between >noun and verb; ditto with practice/practise. I guess it's to be expected, though, given their obsession with forcing nouns into service as verbs. Little Jack Horner sat in a corner Eating peripheral pie, oh He input his thumb, and output a plum, And said, "What a good toy is I/O!" Due to the AmEnglish corruption, it took me a lot of time to sort things out, although fortunately I was taught the practice/practise distinction at an early age. I would advise others to take the same advice. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 06:48:17 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Message-ID: <20021214064817.1a17d744.steveo@eircom.net> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Dec 2002 06:07:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3872.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=LL\`E7cmKTEK_DdH;?cLFA1`\LnN2UYYA2c:]Q2WH=6EkP@QO`nIa0@^9OMIii?[P@6EM>@=Qm0CF X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124158 On 12 Dec 2002 21:10:08 -0800 thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) wrote: TH> Also given that Syntegra has been *extremely* unhelpful, I would like TH> to prevent them using this for commercial gain - everyone else TH> (including Syntegra employees) is welcome to use it for anything Hmm interesting idea that one - BSDL (ish) but not for selected groups. I can think of a suitable company to specify widely :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:40:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1039851602 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:40:02 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:40:02 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124170 On 13 Dec 2002 08:46:46 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >In article <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, >Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >>> They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. >> >>Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there >>someplace??? > >Sure. >S/N 1 6600. >S/N 1 7600. >Not runnable (Freon). Only in certain countries. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:48:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1039852095 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:48:15 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:48:15 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!prodigy.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124176 On 12 Dec 2002 21:10:08 -0800, thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) wrote: >jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote in message news:... >> On 11 Dec 2002 07:10:49 -0800, Tom Hunter wrote: >> >CDC Cyber mainframes are about to have a comeback on your desktop PC. >> >> Yay! >> Also, are the diagnostic code and >> OSes you mention redistributable? > >The Chippewa OS is not copyrighted and will be included with the >emulator. SMM diagnostics and NOS 1.3 are copyrighted and the >successor to CDC (Syntegra) is keen to keep it that way. I tried to >obtain an academic/hobbyist license from Syntegra, but they refused. >They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. > >Maybe someone in a country with less stringent copyright rules then >Australia could put up for download some of the CDC Cyber OS binaries >and sources. I am happy to supply software to read the original OS >tapes on a UNIX/SCSI setup. > >> You need to decide exactly what you consider permissible and impermissible >> uses of your code. (Can others include pieces in their work? Can they >> distribute the package intact? How about in modified form?) > >There seems to be a lot of concern about the licensing (some of it is >very political). I frankly don't really care what you do with the >sources as long as you don't claim you wrote it and if you distribute >a modified version include a note saying so. > >Also given that Syntegra has been *extremely* unhelpful, I would like >to prevent them using this for commercial gain - everyone else >(including Syntegra employees) is welcome to use it for anything >including commercial gain of any sort. As I understand there a still a >number of sites running CDC Cybers and paying a small fortune to >Syntegra for maintenance and support. You could maybe add a clause that any use, modification, distribution, etc. by Syntegra, internally or to any client, constitutes release of some/all CDC software under some Open Source licence terms. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:07:56 -0000 Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1039871276 9907 80.177.7.220 (14 Dec 2002 13:07:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:07:56 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124161 "Brian Inglis" wrote in message news:32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com... > On 13 Dec 2002 08:46:46 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) > wrote: > > >In article <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > >Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > >>> They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. > >> > >>Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there > >>someplace??? > > > >Sure. > >S/N 1 6600. > >S/N 1 7600. > >Not runnable (Freon). > > Only in certain countries. I'm guessing that for a suitably large fee one could have them filled with something legal. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:10:56 -0000 Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com><72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <20021214064817.1a17d744.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1039871457 6934 80.177.7.220 (14 Dec 2002 13:10:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:10:57 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124160 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20021214064817.1a17d744.steveo@eircom.net... > On 12 Dec 2002 21:10:08 -0800 > thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) wrote: > > TH> Also given that Syntegra has been *extremely* unhelpful, I would like > TH> to prevent them using this for commercial gain - everyone else > TH> (including Syntegra employees) is welcome to use it for anything > > Hmm interesting idea that one - BSDL (ish) but not for selected > groups. I can think of a suitable company to specify widely :) Just issue a license that is free for public consumption, but prohibited for commercial use without explicit written agreement by the author. I'm sure I've seen some licenses like that. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:44:02 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1039808641snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1039873442 1267 10.0.0.1 (14 Dec 2002 13:44:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:44:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18NCaH-0000KI-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:44:01 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124191 In article <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu "Joe Pfeiffer" writes: > All the same, a license is a license. Except in the UK and other English-speaking countries, where it's a licence. It seems a shame that AmEnglish has lost the useful distinction between noun and verb; ditto with practice/practise. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:55:27 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-533.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124153 In article , darkboo-remove- this-ng.@hotmail.com says... > "Brian Inglis" wrote in message > news:32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com... > > On 13 Dec 2002 08:46:46 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) > > wrote: > > > > >In article <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > > >Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > >>> They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. > > >> > > >>Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there > > >>someplace??? > > > > > >Sure. > > >S/N 1 6600. > > >S/N 1 7600. > > >Not runnable (Freon). > > > > Only in certain countries. > > I'm guessing that for a suitably large fee one could have them filled > with something legal. One could, but the physical properties of the various refrigerants differ, and depending on how tightly the design of the cooling was tied to the physical properties of the refrigerant used changing to a different compound might require reengineering of the cooling system. > > Cheers, > Rupert > > > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 18:14:17 -0000 Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1039889656 5680 80.177.7.220 (14 Dec 2002 18:14:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 18:14:16 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124162 "J. Clarke" wrote in message news:atfnqn22sph@enews4.newsguy.com... [SNIP] > One could, but the physical properties of the various refrigerants > differ, and depending on how tightly the design of the cooling was tied > to the physical properties of the refrigerant used changing to a > different compound might require reengineering of the cooling system. That did cross my mind, but the thing is : This can't be a new problem and I don't believe that absolutely everyone tossed their freon gear instead of trying a diff refrigerant and making a few tweaks to the system. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3DFB849C.711AA02E@yahoo.com> From: Peter Flass X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:09:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.194.50.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyroc.rr.com 1039892977 24.194.50.82 (Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:09:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:09:37 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!cyclone-out.nyroc.rr.com!twister.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124127 That might not be necessary. Isn't it possible to obtain a license to use it where it's *required*? Some older auto A/C systems come to mind. Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Brian Inglis" wrote in message > news:32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com... > > On 13 Dec 2002 08:46:46 -0800, eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) > > wrote: > > > > >In article <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > > >Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > >>> They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. > > >> > > >>Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there > > >>someplace??? > > > > > >Sure. > > >S/N 1 6600. > > >S/N 1 7600. > > >Not runnable (Freon). > > > > Only in certain countries. > > I'm guessing that for a suitably large fee one could have them filled > with something legal. > > Cheers, > Rupert ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1039808641snz@dsl.co.uk> <1139.113T1057T5324330@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:07:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1039896424 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:07:04 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:07:04 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!prodigy.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124175 On 14 Dec 02 08:52:21 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <1039808641snz@dsl.co.uk> bhk@dsl.co.uk >(Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: > >>In article <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> >> pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu "Joe Pfeiffer" writes: >> >>> All the same, a license is a license. >> >>Except in the UK and other English-speaking countries, where it's a >>licence. >> >>It seems a shame that AmEnglish has lost the useful distinction between >>noun and verb; ditto with practice/practise. > >I guess it's to be expected, though, given their obsession with forcing >nouns into service as verbs. > > Little Jack Horner sat in a corner > Eating peripheral pie, oh > He input his thumb, and output a plum, > And said, "What a good toy is I/O!" > >Due to the AmEnglish corruption, it took me a lot of time to sort >things out, although fortunately I was taught the practice/practise >distinction at an early age. I would advise others to take the same >advice. Though the distinction seems to be maintained in some cases e.g. with advise/advice because they're not homonyms. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:52:39 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-688.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124220 In article , darkboo-remove- this-ng.@hotmail.com says... > "J. Clarke" wrote in message > news:atfnqn22sph@enews4.newsguy.com... > [SNIP] > > > One could, but the physical properties of the various refrigerants > > differ, and depending on how tightly the design of the cooling was tied > > to the physical properties of the refrigerant used changing to a > > different compound might require reengineering of the cooling system. > > That did cross my mind, but the thing is : This can't be a new problem > and I don't believe that absolutely everyone tossed their freon gear > instead of trying a diff refrigerant and making a few tweaks to the > system. The deal on Freon is that you can still use it if you have it, it's just not legal to make any more of it. If you have equipment that uses freon and you need to add additional coolant for some reason you can do that too, as long as you use recycled freon that was taken from another system somewhere. As the supply of freon in the world declines, the price goes up. I suspect that refilling a dry Cyber could get a bit costly. There are "legal" coolants that can be used in systems designed for Freon but they reduce the cooling performance. This is something that one generally just puts up with in consumer products and HVAC, but with a computer it could be a different story. > > Cheers, > Rupert > > > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 15 Dec 2002 00:29:07 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1bof7nrb98.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DF78C97.C3567D51@yahoo.com> <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1039808641snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1039937344 24624 128.123.64.113 (15 Dec 2002 07:29:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 2002 07:29:04 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124199 bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes: > In article <1bwumgxpl0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> > pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu "Joe Pfeiffer" writes: > > > All the same, a license is a license. > > Except in the UK and other English-speaking countries, where it's a > licence. > > It seems a shame that AmEnglish has lost the useful distinction between > noun and verb; ditto with practice/practise. This one wasn't a case of language drift, just one illiterate American. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com (Doug Quebbeman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 15 Dec 2002 06:24:55 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7368b27e.0212150624.6191b772@posting.google.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1039962296 32089 127.0.0.1 (15 Dec 2002 14:24:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 2002 14:24:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124234 Joe Pfeiffer wrote in message > > They won't sell you a license unless you have real CDC hardware. > > Yikes -- you mean there is still real 60-bit CDC hardware out there > someplace??? A functioning CDC Cyber 180/960-31 is operational and available for public use from 6am to 12pm Eastern Time every Saturday morning. For more information, see http://www.cray-cyber.org Regards, -doug q ###### From: dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com (Doug Quebbeman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 15 Dec 2002 06:26:59 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: <7368b27e.0212150626.7ace98d2@posting.google.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1039962419 32372 127.0.0.1 (15 Dec 2002 14:26:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Dec 2002 14:26:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124238 J. Clarke wrote in message > > > >Not runnable (Freon). > > > > > > Only in certain countries. > > > > I'm guessing that for a suitably large fee one could have them filled > > with something legal. > > One could, but the physical properties of the various refrigerants > differ, and depending on how tightly the design of the cooling was tied > to the physical properties of the refrigerant used changing to a > different compound might require reengineering of the cooling system. Fortunately, the cooling system of the original 6000 series is fairly well documented in http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/cdc/60250400_6000IntroAndPProc.pdf Regards, -doug q ###### From: "Eric S. Harris" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 17:26:10 -0600 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 56 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> Reply-To: eric_harris_76@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.39.38.1a Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 15 Dec 2002 23:34:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124288 Tom Hunter wrote: > > CDC Cyber mainframes are about to have a comeback on your desktop PC. > After a few months of hard work I have created a quite impressive > emulation of a CDC Cyber (6x00, 7x and 170). It runs SMM diagnostics > with all the games/toys such as ADC, BAT, WRM, TEN, TOY, DOG, BBP etc. > It also runs the Chippewa OS handcoded in octal by Seymour Cray. It is > getting close to deadstart NOS 1.3 and NOS 2.8.1. The emulation runs > faster then the original on a AMD Athlon 1800+ based Win98/NT machine. > > Watch out for the "Desktop Cyber 1.0" - it will be released before > Christmas in full source free of charge in the hope that it will > generate new interest in Seymour Cray's fantastic creations. I would > like to maintain the copyright just to avoid some commercial interest > appropriating my hard work. Other than that I would like to encourage > free distribution of the source, binaries, ideas etc. Cool! Validation suites? Have some? Want some? Or is "smoke testing" it with operating systems enough, at least for now? I suppose some of the more obscure/evil self-modifying code I've written wouldn't behave as expected. It was in an interactive debugger, and there are a few places where it plunks in a new instruction word after saving the old. Usually it uses the JP trick (EQ trick? How soon we forget.) to flush the instruction prefetch stack, but I'm pretty sure there is a place or places where it relies on the prefetch stack to distinguish CPU types. Maybe "obscure/evil" should just be "evil". ("He's not a bad boy, officer, just misunderstood.") "Regrettable but expedient"? In my defense, I didn't write it, I just maintained it for a while, now and again. Blame Dan Hellrung (I think). I'm pretty sure he wrote it, modeling it after the interactive debugger used on the SDS/Xerox Sigmas. The Sigmas were affectionately known as "Enigmas", for their habit of crashing for no detectable or discoverable reason. And in my further defense, for some things (instruction breakpoints) there's no other way but instruction patching to do what needs to be done. Well, you could use the interpreter whenever there is an instruction breakpoint active even when there's no other reason to, but that makes it run with a slowdown factor of something like 65. Or did, or real hardware. Once my employment situation improves, maybe I'll give it a whirl. Had I the detailed instruction set documentation it would take (or a Seymour Cray-like memory) I'd consider working on test cases for obscure instruction combinations. I seem to recall something about the Cyber 176 rounding floating instructions adding 1/3 of the LSB before rounding, but the other machines adding 1/2 of the LSB. Or something like that. Such a validation suite would need to be validated against real hardware, before it could be used to validate emulated CPUs. That day may be soon. I should know about a week from Monday. -Eric S. ###### From: "John Keeney" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:10:50 -0500 Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts7-52.iglou.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts7-52.iglou.com Message-ID: <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1040015375 lou-ts7-52.iglou.com (16 Dec 2002 00:09:35 -0500) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.255.238.158 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124281 J. Clarke wrote in message news:atgcog35jn@enews3.newsguy.com... > In article , darkboo-remove- > this-ng.@hotmail.com says... > > "J. Clarke" wrote in message > > news:atfnqn22sph@enews4.newsguy.com... > > [SNIP] > > > > > One could, but the physical properties of the various refrigerants > > > differ, and depending on how tightly the design of the cooling was tied > > > to the physical properties of the refrigerant used changing to a > > > different compound might require reengineering of the cooling system. > > > > That did cross my mind, but the thing is : This can't be a new problem > > and I don't believe that absolutely everyone tossed their freon gear > > instead of trying a diff refrigerant and making a few tweaks to the > > system. > > The deal on Freon is that you can still use it if you have it, it's just > not legal to make any more of it. If you have equipment that uses freon > and you need to add additional coolant for some reason you can do that > too, as long as you use recycled freon that was taken from another > system somewhere. As the supply of freon in the world declines, the > price goes up. I suspect that refilling a dry Cyber could get a bit > costly. All depending on WHICH freon you need. There is a large difference between R12, R21 & R134a. > There are "legal" coolants that can be used in systems designed for > Freon but they reduce the cooling performance. This is something that Some of them and, again, depending in which freon. There are R12 replacements that actually perform slightly better. > one generally just puts up with in consumer products and HVAC, but with > a computer it could be a different story. ###### From: thunter0512@hotmail.com (Tom Hunter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 15 Dec 2002 22:40:17 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 33 Message-ID: <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.23.27.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1040020817 8054 127.0.0.1 (16 Dec 2002 06:40:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 2002 06:40:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124316 "Eric S. Harris" wrote in message news:<3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com>... > Tom Hunter wrote: > > > > CDC Cyber mainframes are about to have a comeback on your desktop PC. ... > > Cool! > > Validation suites? > > Have some? Want some? Or is "smoke testing" it with operating > systems enough, at least for now? A lot of "smoke testing" has been done already. Much more will be needed. The only OS I can include with my emulator is Chippewa OS which is in the public domain. I think there will be a great need for OS and diagnostic software once I have released the emulator. It might be good to find a country where copyright restriction do not apply to antique software. Maybe we could set up a website to distribute NOS, KRONOS, SCOPE, SMM and other software. I can supply software in source to read original OS tapes and create images which preserve the tape structure precisely. Please email me if you have Cyber software which would be of interest. KRONOS source and binary would be cool. Best regards Tom Hunter ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 12 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:40:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1040024425 206.146.76.206 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:40:25 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:40:25 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124277 On 15 Dec 2002 22:40:17 -0800, Tom Hunter wrote: >I can supply software in source to read original OS tapes and create >images which preserve the tape structure precisely. BTW, there are at least three different tape file standards out there, and I'd recommend that you support at least one (if not all three). The SIMH series of emulators support one, which I believe is documented on their page; there are two that Hercules support: AWSTAPE, which was introduced by the P/390 personal mainframe systes from IBM and subsequently adopted by Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds support for compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis for gzip) or bzip2. If you need documentation on the latter two, let me know. ###### From: dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com (Doug Quebbeman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 16 Dec 2002 03:55:17 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1040039717 31824 127.0.0.1 (16 Dec 2002 11:55:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 2002 11:55:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124321 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote in message news:... > On 15 Dec 2002 22:40:17 -0800, Tom Hunter wrote: > >I can supply software in source to read original OS tapes and create > >images which preserve the tape structure precisely. > > BTW, there are at least three different tape file standards out there, and > I'd recommend that you support at least one (if not all three). The SIMH > series of emulators support one, which I believe is documented on their > page; there are two that Hercules support: AWSTAPE, which was introduced by > the P/390 personal mainframe systes from IBM and subsequently adopted by > Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds support for > compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis for gzip) or bzip2. If > you need documentation on the latter two, let me know. The TAP format has to be stretched a bit... due to the packing of two 12-bit bytes into three 8-bit-bytes, you can end up with records that are of odd length... Bob Supnik's recent formal defintion of TAP states that the record lengths must be even... Underlying that is the CDC requirement that tapes contain data written in integral CM (60-bit) words... -dq ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 29 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:33:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1040049204 206.146.76.206 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:33:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:33:24 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124279 On 16 Dec 2002 03:55:17 -0800, Doug Quebbeman wrote: >jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote in message news:... >> BTW, there are at least three different tape file standards out there, and >> I'd recommend that you support at least one (if not all three). The SIMH >> series of emulators support one, which I believe is documented on their >> page; there are two that Hercules support: AWSTAPE, which was introduced by >> the P/390 personal mainframe systes from IBM and subsequently adopted by >> Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds support for >> compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis for gzip) or bzip2. If >> you need documentation on the latter two, let me know. >The TAP format has to be stretched a bit... due to the packing >of two 12-bit bytes into three 8-bit-bytes, you can end up with >records that are of odd length... Bob Supnik's recent formal >defintion of TAP states that the record lengths must be even... Oh, really? Wonder why he did that. Real-world tapes don't have this restriction, of course. At least it's not an issue with AWSTAPE, which can have records of any number of (8-bit) bytes; thus, as long as the CDC stuff is used to dealing with 8- to 12-bit conversion, it shouldn't care. HET should also work, since it's upwardly compatible. >Underlying that is the CDC requirement that tapes contain data >written in integral CM (60-bit) words... Okkay, so what do you do with an odd number of 60-bit words? That leads to an odd number of 12-bit bytes, and the last 12 bits has to be written to two 8-bit bytes. Are the remaining 4 bits set to zero, or is something trickier done with them? ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:29:05 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Spies In the Wire Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 16 Dec 2002 09:00:35 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!unknown!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124255 From article , by jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard): > Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds support for > compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis for gzip) or bzip2. Hopefully, this is obvious, but you DON'T want to use compression on any archive you care about, since one error in the bitstream makes at best anything after it and at worst the entire archive useless. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:51:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1040057464 206.146.76.206 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:51:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:51:04 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124278 On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:29:05 +0000 (UTC), Al Kossow wrote: >From article , by jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard): >> Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds support for >> compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis for gzip) or bzip2. >Hopefully, this is obvious, but you DON'T want to use compression on any >archive you care about, since one error in the bitstream makes at best >anything after it and at worst the entire archive useless. For archival purposes, this is certainly true; OTOH, if you're talking about a tape (or DASD, in Hercules) image you're using on a regular basis, compression has two benefits: 1) Increased emulation speed. Current systems are fast enough that lowering the amount of real I/O done, even at the expense of additional cycles, is a win. 2) Easier backups. It's easier and less costly to back up an 8 MB compressed 3330 than it is a 100 MB uncompressed one. The reference copy of a software distribution should be kept as an uncompressed image, but working copies can and should be compressed (if the system supports reading compressed data). ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:52:42 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-384.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124303 In article <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com>, jdkeeney@iglou.com says... > > J. Clarke wrote in message > news:atgcog35jn@enews3.newsguy.com... > > In article , darkboo-remove- > > this-ng.@hotmail.com says... > > > "J. Clarke" wrote in message > > > news:atfnqn22sph@enews4.newsguy.com... > > > [SNIP] > > > > > > > One could, but the physical properties of the various refrigerants > > > > differ, and depending on how tightly the design of the cooling was > tied > > > > to the physical properties of the refrigerant used changing to a > > > > different compound might require reengineering of the cooling system. > > > > > > That did cross my mind, but the thing is : This can't be a new problem > > > and I don't believe that absolutely everyone tossed their freon gear > > > instead of trying a diff refrigerant and making a few tweaks to the > > > system. > > > > The deal on Freon is that you can still use it if you have it, it's just > > not legal to make any more of it. If you have equipment that uses freon > > and you need to add additional coolant for some reason you can do that > > too, as long as you use recycled freon that was taken from another > > system somewhere. As the supply of freon in the world declines, the > > price goes up. I suspect that refilling a dry Cyber could get a bit > > costly. > > All depending on WHICH freon you need. > There is a large difference between R12, R21 & R134a. The legalities are the same for any CFC. And the cost is simple economics--if the supply dwindles faster than the demand declines the cost rises. > > There are "legal" coolants that can be used in systems designed for > > Freon but they reduce the cooling performance. This is something that > > Some of them and, again, depending in which freon. There are R12 > replacements that actually perform slightly better. I've been away from HVAC too long. Last I heard they hadn't come up with anything you could put in an R12 system that would work as well as R12. Three cheers for market pressure? > > one generally just puts up with in consumer products and HVAC, but with > > a computer it could be a different story. > > > > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### Message-ID: <3DFE1AF7.F6272FB@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:43:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1040064194 12.90.169.168 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:43:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:43:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124248 Al Kossow wrote: > jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard): > > > Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds > > support for compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis > > for gzip) or bzip2. > > Hopefully, this is obvious, but you DON'T want to use compression > on any archive you care about, since one error in the bitstream > makes at best anything after it and at worst the entire archive > useless. If you remember the days of Huffman compressors, the decoders could often (no guarantees) recover after a bit error, leaving just a relatively short section of the data fouled. This wouldn't apply to adaptive Huffman, but the types that transmitted an initial translation table. Of course an error in the table was fatal. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <3DFE1DDE.E81CBF78@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:43:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1040064196 12.90.169.168 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:43:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:43:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124256 Jay Maynard wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > > jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard): > > >> Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds > >> support for compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis > >> for gzip) or bzip2. > > > > Hopefully, this is obvious, but you DON'T want to use compression > > on any archive you care about, since one error in the bitstream > > makes at best anything after it and at worst the entire archive > > useless. > > For archival purposes, this is certainly true; OTOH, if you're > talking about a tape (or DASD, in Hercules) image you're using on > a regular basis, compression has two benefits: > > 1) Increased emulation speed. Current systems are fast enough that > lowering the amount of real I/O done, even at the expense of > additional cycles, is a win. > 2) Easier backups. It's easier and less costly to back up an 8 MB > compressed 3330 than it is a 100 MB uncompressed one. > > The reference copy of a software distribution should be kept as > an uncompressed image, but working copies can and should be > compressed (if the system supports reading compressed data). I don't know just how he does it, but Eric Jung, in ARJ, has provision for adding a media error recovery syndrome, which he claims can recover from several media errors. Naturally this redundancy changes the net compression achieved, but the result should be safer than archiving the uncompressed originals. IIRC Probably similar to fire codes, at any rate it has to handle burst errors. Unfortunately AFAIK he does not make source available, thus no Unix/Linux etc implementations. ARJ has many more switches than ls :-) -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 16 Dec 2002 20:25:06 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6uheddrckt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1040066709 751 10.0.3.2 (16 Dec 2002 19:25:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 2002 19:25:09 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124343 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > OTOH, if you're talking about > a tape (or DASD, in Hercules) image you're using on a regular basis, > compression has two benefits: > > 1) Increased emulation speed. Current systems are fast enough that lowering > the amount of real I/O done, even at the expense of additional cycles, is a > win. OTOH the data sets one runs on emulated 1960s systems most likely fit into the hosts systems RAM anyway. Now how many GBytes RAM have you got :-). I will add a note, that on-line harddisk compression (Stacker & co) has died in the PC world. More nuissance and data loss than usefull. > 2) Easier backups. It's easier and less costly to back up an 8 MB compressed > 3330 than it is a 100 MB uncompressed one. Then put compression into the backup system. At least there you most likely have an end-to-end write process. Simply .tar.gz the stuff and shove it onto tape or 2nd harddisk or over the net to annother system. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Blacksmith - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 16 Dec 2002 12:47:37 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1bn0n5rbja.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1040068054 7440 128.123.64.113 (16 Dec 2002 19:47:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Dec 2002 19:47:34 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124348 J. Clarke writes: > > > > All depending on WHICH freon you need. > > There is a large difference between R12, R21 & R134a. > > The legalities are the same for any CFC. And the cost is simple > economics--if the supply dwindles faster than the demand declines the > cost rises. I thought there was a distinction between ``really evil'' CFCs like R12, and ``evil'' CFCs like R134a -- this being why R134a can be used in new cars. > > I've been away from HVAC too long. Last I heard they hadn't come up > with anything you could put in an R12 system that would work as well as > R12. Three cheers for market pressure? I've seen the claim that R406 (George Goebbel's mix) is equivalent. It isn't approved for automotive use because it's flammable, though. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <3DFE1DDE.E81CBF78@yahoo.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 51 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:NtNJWneE+Uu1j2imXBZTgQB2qg8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:42:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.10.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1040071376 209.245.10.82 (Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:42:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:42:56 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124351 CBFalconer writes: > I don't know just how he does it, but Eric Jung, in ARJ, has > provision for adding a media error recovery syndrome, which he > claims can recover from several media errors. Naturally this > redundancy changes the net compression achieved, but the result > should be safer than archiving the uncompressed originals. IIRC > Probably similar to fire codes, at any > rate it has to handle burst errors. cdrom standard has been reed-solomon. one of the things that were were doing in hsdt time-frame (especially for satellites) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hsdt was adaptive FEC. we had been working with cyclotonics at the time (berkeley, lots of the cdrom standard work ... bought up in the period by kodak because of the cdrom & optical disk encoding work). on a signal with nominal BER of 10**-9 ... 15/16ths reed-solomon gave about six orders magnitude signal improvement ... aka effective BER of 10**-15. cdrom uses interleaving to handle some of the burst/scratch type errors. the issue of kinds of interleaving ... typically is based on profile of expected error characteristics. for transmission the idea ... that cyclotonics was also using with some FM radio applications ... was that on uncorrectable packet ... rather than resend the original packet (over the 15/16s reed-solomon encoded transmission) was to transmit the 1/2rate viturbi encoding of the original packet. if transmission quality dropped too badly ... then switch from transmitting the 1/2rate viturbi encoding on error ... to transmitting the 1/2rate viturbi as part of each packet. idea was that for intermittent errors ... the transmission of the 1/2rate viturbi encoding used the same bandwidth as retransmitting the original packet ... but was much more resilient to additional errors. Under high error conditions ... just go ahead and cut the effective thruput by always transmitting the 1/2rate viturbi encoding with the original packet. random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#28 Log Structured filesystems -- think twice http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#115 What is the use of OSI Reference Model? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#210 AES cyphers leak information like sieves http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#38 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#1 4M pages are a bad idea (was Re: AMD 64bit Hammer CPU and VM) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#80 Disks size growing while disk count shrinking = bad performance http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#71 Encryption + Error Correction http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#53 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is) -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:24:42 -0000 Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <6uheddrckt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1040117083 13366 62.49.243.90 (17 Dec 2002 09:24:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:24:43 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124470 "Neil Franklin" wrote in message news:6uheddrckt.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > I will add a note, that on-line harddisk compression (Stacker & co) > has died in the PC world. More nuissance and data loss than usefull. Still there on NTFS partions under windows NT. I have used it for compressing stuff I don't care about (online documentation etc). -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:38:26 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com> <1bn0n5rbja.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-899.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124438 In article <1bn0n5rbja.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu says... > J. Clarke writes: > > > > > > All depending on WHICH freon you need. > > > There is a large difference between R12, R21 & R134a. > > > > The legalities are the same for any CFC. And the cost is simple > > economics--if the supply dwindles faster than the demand declines the > > cost rises. > > I thought there was a distinction between ``really evil'' CFCs like > R12, and ``evil'' CFCs like R134a -- this being why R134a can be used > in new cars. R134a is not a CFC, it is an HFC. The chemical formula for R134a is CH (2)FCF(3). Note no Chlorine. The chemical formula for R12 is CCl(2)F (2). Note 2 Chlorines. > > I've been away from HVAC too long. Last I heard they hadn't come up > > with anything you could put in an R12 system that would work as well as > > R12. Three cheers for market pressure? > > I've seen the claim that R406 (George Goebbel's mix) is equivalent. > It isn't approved for automotive use because it's flammable, though. Now that's some fine logic. 30 gallons of gasoline is fine but a few pints of R406 is a fire hazard? Just the sort of thing that gives safety engineers a bad name. In any case found one site that indicates that it has been approved by EPA and Environment Canada and claims 7% improvement over R-12. If so, that's cool. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 17 Dec 2002 08:44:16 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1by96omyzz.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com> <1bn0n5rbja.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1040139857 12813 128.123.64.113 (17 Dec 2002 15:44:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 2002 15:44:17 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124385 J. Clarke writes: > > > > I thought there was a distinction between ``really evil'' CFCs like > > R12, and ``evil'' CFCs like R134a -- this being why R134a can be used > > in new cars. > > R134a is not a CFC, it is an HFC. The chemical formula for R134a is CH > (2)FCF(3). Note no Chlorine. The chemical formula for R12 is CCl(2)F > (2). Note 2 Chlorines. Ah, thanks. I remembered there was a distinction, but didn't remember the chemical basis. But the lonely firing neuron in my skull is still saying that while R134a isn't a CFC, it still has some negative ozone impact, but not as bad? > > > > I've seen the claim that R406 (George Goebbel's mix) is equivalent. > > It isn't approved for automotive use because it's flammable, though. > > Now that's some fine logic. 30 gallons of gasoline is fine but a few > pints of R406 is a fire hazard? Just the sort of thing that gives > safety engineers a bad name. In any case found one site that indicates > that it has been approved by EPA and Environment Canada and claims 7% > improvement over R-12. If so, that's cool. I've also seen dark conspiracy-theorist speculation regarding ties between DuPont and the relevant committee... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:21:39 -0600 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dal-tgn-tka-vty33.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1040145805 6275 206.175.230.33 (17 Dec 2002 17:23:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:23:25 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!nycmny1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snf1!news.gtei.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124513 Jay Maynard wrote: > wrote: >>... Bob Supnik's recent formal >>defintion of TAP states that the record lengths must be even... > Oh, really? Wonder why he did that. I don't think he did. However, odd-sized blocks have an extra null byte of padding (not included in the size field). Therefore, odd block sizes work just fine with any program that understands the format. I have several magtape utilties that work with the TAP format, and have been using them to make archival images (files copied to CD-ROM) of numerous magtapes. (I realize that CD-R media is not actually permanent either, but it should last until the next medium comes along.) ###### From: "Eric S. Harris" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:02:12 -0600 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 19 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3DFF90D4.90A63494@mindspring.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com> <1bn0n5rbja.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1by96omyzz.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: eric_harris_76@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 41.38.aa.ae Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 17 Dec 2002 21:06:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!harp.news.atl.earthlink.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124388 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > J. Clarke writes: [snipped] > > Now that's some fine logic. 30 gallons of gasoline is fine but a few > > pints of R406 is a fire hazard? Just the sort of thing that gives > > safety engineers a bad name. In any case found one site that indicates > > that it has been approved by EPA and Environment Canada and claims 7% > > improvement over R-12. If so, that's cool. No pun intended, of course. > I've also seen dark conspiracy-theorist speculation regarding ties > between DuPont and the relevant committee... Me, too. Somethign about patents expiring. No black helicopters, though. -Eric S. ###### From: tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:33:21 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A series networking Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tr-mccafftm.na.uis.unisys.com X-Trace: trsvr.tr.unisys.com 1040168001 25748 192.63.212.94 (17 Dec 2002 23:33:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tr.unisys.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:33:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!bbnews1.unisys.com!trsvr.tr.unisys.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124448 In article <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com>, thunter0512@hotmail.com says... > >I think there will be a great need for OS and diagnostic software once >I have released the emulator. It might be good to find a country where >copyright restriction do not apply to antique software. Maybe we could >set up a website to distribute NOS, KRONOS, SCOPE, SMM and other >software. > >I can supply software in source to read original OS tapes and create >images which preserve the tape structure precisely. > >Please email me if you have Cyber software which would be of interest. > You might try the following: University of Minnesota - I think they ran NOS (an possibly KRONOS). University of Texas at Austin - They originally ran Scope 3.2, and slowly modified it to look like NOS on a dual Cyber 170/750 (the only one in existence, I think). Michigan State University / Computer Science / Computer Lab - Ran Scope 3.4 heavily modified to look *almost* like NOS/BE. Since a large portion of the OS was re-written at MSU, they may be able to supply some portions unhindered by CDC copyrights. I know of at least one person there who worked there during the Cyber days, so there may be others. - Tim ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:53:39 +0000 Lines: 39 Message-ID: <86lvvuocmkqbmlhvgls6tkgduk5j4v48ne@4ax.com> References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1040176420 15993 80.177.21.188 (18 Dec 2002 01:53:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:53:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124364 On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:33:21 +0000 (UTC), tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) wrote: >In article <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com>, thunter0512@hotmail.com >says... >> > >>I think there will be a great need for OS and diagnostic software once >>I have released the emulator. It might be good to find a country where >>copyright restriction do not apply to antique software. Maybe we could >>set up a website to distribute NOS, KRONOS, SCOPE, SMM and other >>software. >> >>I can supply software in source to read original OS tapes and create >>images which preserve the tape structure precisely. >> >>Please email me if you have Cyber software which would be of interest. >> > >You might try the following: > >University of Minnesota - I think they ran NOS (an possibly KRONOS). > >University of Texas at Austin - They originally ran Scope 3.2, and >slowly modified it to look like NOS on a dual Cyber 170/750 (the only >one in existence, I think). > >Michigan State University / Computer Science / Computer Lab - >Ran Scope 3.4 heavily modified to look *almost* like NOS/BE. Since >a large portion of the OS was re-written at MSU, they may be able to >supply some portions unhindered by CDC copyrights. I know of at least >one person there who worked there during the Cyber days, so there may >be others. > > - Tim The University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre ran KRONOS and NOS in 1975/6 and 76/7 on IIRC a CDC7600 + Cyber 77. Steve. ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:34:33 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <72f672b1.0212122110.3411ec4e@posting.google.com> <1bpts6c4n0.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3dfa0ef6$1@news.ucsc.edu> <32olvu0rhl03rs73sh06b76rr0k3khro09@4ax.com> <3dfd600f$1_1@news.iglou.com> <1bn0n5rbja.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1by96omyzz.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-131.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124439 In article <1by96omyzz.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu says... > J. Clarke writes: > > > > > > I thought there was a distinction between ``really evil'' CFCs like > > > R12, and ``evil'' CFCs like R134a -- this being why R134a can be used > > > in new cars. > > > > R134a is not a CFC, it is an HFC. The chemical formula for R134a is CH > > (2)FCF(3). Note no Chlorine. The chemical formula for R12 is CCl(2)F > > (2). Note 2 Chlorines. > > Ah, thanks. I remembered there was a distinction, but didn't remember > the chemical basis. But the lonely firing neuron in my skull is still > saying that while R134a isn't a CFC, it still has some negative ozone > impact, but not as bad? Apparently. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the HFCs are going to be allowed until 2020 or so, by which time some new crisis du jour will have erupted, so the Powers That Be might neglect to enact that ban. > > > I've seen the claim that R406 (George Goebbel's mix) is equivalent. > > > It isn't approved for automotive use because it's flammable, though. > > > > Now that's some fine logic. 30 gallons of gasoline is fine but a few > > pints of R406 is a fire hazard? Just the sort of thing that gives > > safety engineers a bad name. In any case found one site that indicates > > that it has been approved by EPA and Environment Canada and claims 7% > > improvement over R-12. If so, that's cool. > > I've also seen dark conspiracy-theorist speculation regarding ties > between DuPont and the relevant committee... > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### Message-ID: <3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1040202069 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:01:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:01:09 GMT Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:01:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124487 "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > > Jay Maynard wrote: > > wrote: > >>... Bob Supnik's recent formal > >>defintion of TAP states that the record lengths must be even... > > Oh, really? Wonder why he did that. > > I don't think he did. However, odd-sized blocks have an > extra null byte of padding (not included in the size field). > Therefore, odd block sizes work just fine with any program > that understands the format. I have several magtape > utilties that work with the TAP format, and have been > using them to make archival images (files copied to CD-ROM) > of numerous magtapes. (I realize that CD-R media is not > actually permanent either, but it should last until the > next medium comes along.) > The CD-R media has the chance of surviving after you, I, and all the others posting in this group...have expired. And, if in 30 years or so there is still interest...it should be easy to make another CD-R copy, or DVD copy, or MFD (multi-level florescent disk) copy of the information... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <1bn0n5rbja.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1by96omyzz.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Message-ID: Lines: 46 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:47:42 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1040218201 212.186.246.50 (Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:30:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:30:01 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124469 According to Joe Pfeiffer : >J. Clarke writes: >> > >> > I thought there was a distinction between ``really evil'' CFCs like >> > R12, and ``evil'' CFCs like R134a -- this being why R134a can be used >> > in new cars. >> [snip snap snip snap] >> > I've seen the claim that R406 (George Goebbel's mix) is equivalent. >> > It isn't approved for automotive use because it's flammable, though. >> >> Now that's some fine logic. 30 gallons of gasoline is fine but a few >> pints of R406 is a fire hazard? Just the sort of thing that gives >> safety engineers a bad name. In any case found one site that indicates >> that it has been approved by EPA and Environment Canada and claims 7% >> improvement over R-12. If so, that's cool. > >I've also seen dark conspiracy-theorist speculation regarding ties >between DuPont and the relevant committee... Having one fire hazard that most people is well aware of (after seeing a few thousand fuel tanks explode in hollowood crashes) is no reason to introduce another, smaller, but much more obscure one. I would also guess the gasoline fuel line is much shorter and less complex than the cooling system line in a car AC system.. Sound safety engineering includes having good reasons for the accident exposure you take. The basic propulsion of a vehicle is pretty much the reason it exists, but a 7% more effective coolant does not merit having a much larger fire risk exposure. Another thing about the AC business in general. This line of business has always made an impression on me as pretty non-competitive and not very service-minded. They also _ALWAYS_ propose the least energy-effective solution to cooling problems. At 60 degrees north it should suffice to have a large run of piping outdoors to vent heat; and not require compressors and heat pumps for 98% of the time. Even Californians has a coldish ocean they can heat. -- mrr ###### Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> <3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net> From: Morten Reistad X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Message-ID: Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:52:11 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: amstwist00 1040218201 212.186.246.50 (Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:30:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:30:01 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!news2.euro.net!news2.euro.net!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!amstwist00.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124463 According to Charles Richmond : >"Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: >> >> Jay Maynard wrote: >> > wrote: >> >>... Bob Supnik's recent formal >> >>defintion of TAP states that the record lengths must be even... >> > Oh, really? Wonder why he did that. >> [snip] >> >The CD-R media has the chance of surviving after you, I, and >all the others posting in this group...have expired. And, if >in 30 years or so there is still interest...it should be easy >to make another CD-R copy, or DVD copy, or MFD (multi-level >florescent disk) copy of the information... Doesn't CD-R media largely decay by oxidation of the substrate? In which case it should be stored as we store beer and coffee; in dark, enclosed cylinders filled with an inert gas. It is not so impossible either. Zip-lock bags filled with argon should go a long way. -- mrr ###### From: "Earl Truss" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> <3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net> Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:17:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.163.190.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.rdc-kc.rr.com 1040217464 24.163.190.201 (Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:17:44 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:17:44 CST Organization: RoadRunner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeeder.edisontel.com!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!telocity-west!DIRECTV!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!news-west.rr.com!cyclone.socal.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.rdc-kc.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124484 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message news:3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net... > "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > > > The CD-R media has the chance of surviving after you, I, and > all the others posting in this group...have expired. And, if > in 30 years or so there is still interest...it should be easy > to make another CD-R copy, or DVD copy, or MFD (multi-level > florescent disk) copy of the information... > If things go on the way they are now, in 30 years, no one will have the means to read a current CDR so they'll be useless. Anyone try to read a 15-year-old 8" floppy disk lately? ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> <3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:26:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1040217964 206.146.76.206 (Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:26:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:26:04 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124374 On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:17:44 GMT, Earl Truss wrote: >"Charles Richmond" wrote in message >news:3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net... >> "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: >> The CD-R media has the chance of surviving after you, I, and >> all the others posting in this group...have expired. And, if >> in 30 years or so there is still interest...it should be easy >> to make another CD-R copy, or DVD copy, or MFD (multi-level >> florescent disk) copy of the information... >If things go on the way they are now, in 30 years, no one will have the >means to read a current CDR so they'll be useless. Anyone try to read a >15-year-old 8" floppy disk lately? Yeah. Worked fine. Doesn't everyone still have a CP/M system running? ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:57:54 +0000 Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> <3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net> Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1040223473 9153 80.177.21.188 (18 Dec 2002 14:57:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:57:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124519 On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:26:04 GMT, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:17:44 GMT, Earl Truss wrote: >>"Charles Richmond" wrote in message >>news:3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net... >>> "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: >>> The CD-R media has the chance of surviving after you, I, and >>> all the others posting in this group...have expired. And, if >>> in 30 years or so there is still interest...it should be easy >>> to make another CD-R copy, or DVD copy, or MFD (multi-level >>> florescent disk) copy of the information... >>If things go on the way they are now, in 30 years, no one will have the >>means to read a current CDR so they'll be useless. Anyone try to read a >>15-year-old 8" floppy disk lately? > >Yeah. Worked fine. > >Doesn't everyone still have a CP/M system running? There's an eight inch floppy somewhere about here. It contains a BASIC interpreter for FLEX09. I have (somewhere) two systems which *might* read that but I've no 8" drive. Luckily, I backed it up onto a 360k 5.25" floppy :-) Steve. ###### Message-ID: <3E009B90.3D58AF6B@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> <3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:09:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.178.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1040227798 12.90.178.36 (Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:09:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:09:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124361 Morten Reistad wrote: > ... snip ... > > In which case it should be stored as we store beer and coffee; > in dark, enclosed cylinders filled with an inert gas. Unusual description for the human digestive system. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:23:11 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124451 In alt.folklore.computers Tom Hunter wrote: > CDC Cyber mainframes are about to have a comeback on your desktop PC. > After a few months of hard work I have created a quite impressive > emulation of a CDC Cyber (6x00, 7x and 170). It runs SMM diagnostics > with all the games/toys such as ADC, BAT, WRM, TEN, TOY, DOG, BBP etc. > It also runs the Chippewa OS handcoded in octal by Seymour Cray. It is > getting close to deadstart NOS 1.3 and NOS 2.8.1. The emulation runs > faster then the original on a AMD Athlon 1800+ based Win98/NT machine. Looks pretty. ;) Also, at first glance, it looks as though it should port pretty cleanly to Unix and X. Nice tidy piece of code. I may look at porting to Linux if I get some spare time over the festive truce. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Robison Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas X-Nntp-Posting-Host: flip.physics.uiowa.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3E00A720.E467495A@uiowa.edu.com> Sender: news@sysadm.physics.uiowa.edu (News Administrator) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: University of Iowa X-Accept-Language: en References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> <3E005546.2025E12@ev1.net> <3E009B90.3D58AF6B@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:49:36 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124377 CBFalconer wrote: > > Morten Reistad wrote: > > > ... snip ... > > > > In which case it should be stored as we store beer and coffee; > > in dark, enclosed cylinders filled with an inert gas. > > Unusual description for the human digestive system. 'specially the part about inert... :-) -W ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:41:50 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Spies In the Wire Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 18 Dec 2002 10:13:39 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!unknown!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124360 >>Anyone try to read a >>15-year-old 8" floppy disk lately? I'm reading several hundred of them right now. Same sorts of problems as old tapes, except rather than the oxide sticking to the next wrap of the tape and peeling off, it is torn off by the floppy head in nice concentric rings. DC100 and DC300 carts have a serious problem with recovery since most of the pinch rollers in the drives have turned to goo. At least you don't have physical concact with the media reading back an opitical disk. In thirty years, will all drives in production have "Digital Rights Management" expecting media locked to your DNA? (I wish I were joking) ###### From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:50:33 -0600 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3E00EDA9.7080808@null.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dal-tgn-tkq-vty1.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1040248230 5566 216.192.228.1 (18 Dec 2002 21:50:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:50:30 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124753 Al Kossow wrote: > DC100 and DC300 carts have a serious problem with recovery since most > of the pinch rollers in the drives have turned to goo. Pinch rollers should be replaceable, perhaps using pieces of rubber tubing. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 22:34:33 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Spies In the Wire Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: spies.com X-Trace: 18 Dec 2002 15:06:23 -0800, spies.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!unknown!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124527 From article , by J. Clarke : > > As for the longevity, the limitation is the chemistry of the phase- > change layer--the reflective backing should last longer than that--with > some recordables being shipped with a gold backing rather than aluminum > oxidation would not be an issue in any case. There are several other factors, including oozing of the dye and oxidation of the reflective layers, both due to poor or no sealing of the edge of the disc. Because of lack of demand, gold reflective layers are becoming difficult to find at reasonable prices/quantities. It is also becoming difficult to find media that sticks to the red book spec, which limits the recording time (and radial spacing) to 74 minutes. People have started to observe that 80 minute CDRs don't play back reliably on all CD players. ###### From: "John Keeney" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 05:55:24 -0500 Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts5-64.iglou.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts5-64.iglou.com Message-ID: <3e01a545_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1040295237 lou-ts5-64.iglou.com (19 Dec 2002 05:53:57 -0500) X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.255.238.78 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124531 Al Kossow wrote in message news:atqc0u$ge3$1@spies.com... > > >>Anyone try to read a > >>15-year-old 8" floppy disk lately? > > I'm reading several hundred of them right now. Same sorts of problems > as old tapes, except rather than the oxide sticking to the next wrap > of the tape and peeling off, it is torn off by the floppy head in > nice concentric rings. > > DC100 and DC300 carts have a serious problem with recovery since most > of the pinch rollers in the drives have turned to goo. > > At least you don't have physical concact with the media reading back > an opitical disk. > > In thirty years, will all drives in production have "Digital Rights > Management" expecting media locked to your DNA? (I wish I were joking) Imagain the buisness opertunity for Bill Gate's barber, selling Bill's hair clippings to everyone to unlock access to, well, by then, everything! ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 19 Dec 2002 10:42:46 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1040323366 14842 127.0.0.1 (19 Dec 2002 18:42:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Dec 2002 18:42:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124733 aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote in message news:... > From article , by jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard): > > Hercules, and HET, an upwardly compatible extension that adds support for > > compression on the fly with either zlib (the basis for gzip) or bzip2. > > Hopefully, this is obvious, but you DON'T want to use compression on any > archive you care about, since one error in the bitstream makes at best > anything after it and at worst the entire archive useless. Bzip2 (and some other compression schemes) "block" the data in such a way that corrupt or lost data only ruins the block that it is in. Since almost all storage media are blocked (or CRC'ed on block boundaries) anyway it's not such a big loss. Look into "digital fountain" techniques for a neat way to recover lost data blocks without retransmissions. It's largely being applied to network transmission now, but I think it could prove useful in archives too. There is one advantage to most compression schemes: CRC checks that help show corruption in transmission. Yeah, md5sum's work too, but they're usually the last thing tried after struggling with a damaged file for hours. Tim. ###### Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:K9Dmh5elvHtpR1p60XwWjkiX51I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:53:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.5.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1040705618 209.245.5.161 (Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:53:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:53:38 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-xfer.cox.net!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:125011 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > For archival purposes, this is certainly true; OTOH, if you're talking about > a tape (or DASD, in Hercules) image you're using on a regular basis, > compression has two benefits: i was picking around in vmshare looking for something else and found in: http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse?fn=HISTORY&ft=MEMO Append on 09/13/94 at 13:12 by David Boyes ( dboyes@vma.cc.nd.edu, 219 631 9448 Update on the 360/67: Since I'm no longer in Houston, I'm not able to work much on it. I bumped into one of the support people from NASA JSC (in the grocery store, of all places) and she mentioned that NASA still had copies of the OS/360 distribution in permanent storage as part of the moon shot material. So, a few phone calls later, I was down at JSC (wearing my "I Like HASP" button) with an armload of blank tapes and a pocket full of dimes copying install instructions and tapes. The JSC folks were kind enough to let me copy the distribution tapes (after all, it's for educational purposes, right?), and we did the install a few nights before Share in Boston. The machine runs the final release of OS/360 with the JSC HASP mods. According to Dick Newsom and Larry Chace (at SCIDS), this is the first new OS/360 install in 30+ years. I wonder what would happen if I tried to call the support center? ...8-). (I did resist the urge to run up and down the hall yelling "It's Alive!", though... Gene Wilder would have been disappointed in me.) Sigh. It was a neat project. *** APPENDED 09/13/94 13:12:16 BY UDM/DBOYES *** -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas References: Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:57:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1040738244 206.146.76.206 (Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:57:24 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:57:24 CST Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:124991 On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 04:53:38 GMT, Anne & Lynn Wheeler quoted David Boyes: >Since I'm no longer in Houston, I'm not able to work much on it. I bumped into >one of the support people from NASA JSC (in the grocery store, of all places) >and she mentioned that NASA still had copies of the OS/360 distribution in >permanent storage as part of the moon shot material. So, a few phone calls >later, I was down at JSC (wearing my "I Like HASP" button) with an armload >of blank tapes and a pocket full of dimes copying install instructions and >tapes. The JSC folks were kind enough to let me copy the distribution tapes >(after all, it's for educational purposes, right?), and we did the install >a few nights before Share in Boston. The machine runs the final release of >OS/360 with the JSC HASP mods. !!!!! Wonder if they've still got all that; if so, I'll have to find a way to get back down there. Wish I'd known this while I was still living 15 miles away from JSC. I've STILL been totally unsuccessful in laying hands on a copy of HASP. I'd *REALLY* like to get one in the next month; I need to have the turnkey MVT CD ready by the end of January in order to have it available at SHARE. ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:45:27 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: il0502a-dhcp243.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1040762725 6836 17.205.24.243 (24 Dec 2002 20:45:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 20:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newsfeed1.sea.pnap.net!newsfeed.pnap.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!il0502a-dhcp243.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:125046 In article , jmaynard@conmicro.cx wrote: > Wonder if they've still got all that; if so, I'll have to find a way to get > back down there. The message said it was a permanent archive. Wonder if the person who made the copies still has them ? ###### From: ararghNOSPAM@NOT.AT.enteract.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:45:16 -0600 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr220.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1040773526 24337 209.100.226.220 (24 Dec 2002 23:45:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:45:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!localhost!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:125123 On Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:57:24 GMT, jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: >I've STILL been totally unsuccessful in laying hands on a copy of HASP. I'd >*REALLY* like to get one in the next month; I need to have the turnkey MVT >CD ready by the end of January in order to have it available at SHARE. I found a small (one of those grey plastic DTR's) with the following label: 360D 05.1014 MAINT V2 M3 9/800 And a handwritten notation of "HASP" And another tape with a handwritten label of: "1600 hasp 1600x80" I have a friend who has a 9/1600 drive, so I will try to read the latter tape later this week. Considering the small sizes of the tapes, I doubt that either is a full copy. These tapes date from about 1972. Unfortunately both of my 9-track tape drives are somewhere between dieing and dead. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### From: "Zane H. Healy" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cdc,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: 1 Jan 2003 03:41:46 GMT Organization: Aracnet Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-624.newsdawg.com User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.22 (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:125519 In alt.folklore.computers Douglas A. Gwyn wrote: > using them to make archival images (files copied to CD-ROM) > of numerous magtapes. (I realize that CD-R media is not > actually permanent either, but it should last until the > next medium comes along.) Use the highest quality CD-R media you can get. The setup a schedule to transfer the data to new media (say every 3-6 years). Also, don't make just one copy, make several copies of each disk, and arrange for at least one set to be stored off-site. I'm working on a simular project. The first cut is sitting on a DVD-RW at my parents. Once I finish it, I'll most likely be putting it on DVD-R. Though I just might split it up so that it's on separate CD-R's. The advantage of splitting the data over multiple CD-R's being, if something happens to one or two of the disks, a lot of the data is still recoverable. Another thing about using CD-R's for archival purposes is, it's not just us computer buff's. A lot of people are scanning in things and putting them on CD-R's. My Mom spent a sizable amount of time this last summer scanning in old family photographs. I think the last count had something like 12 CD-R's worth of 600dpi images. CD and CD-R's are *VERY* popular for Geneology information. The sad thing is, while a lot of us here are considering media longevity, the average user isn't. Zane ###### From: Steve Burton Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Free Desktop Cyber emulation on PC before Christmas Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 22:09:34 +0000 Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <72f672b1.0212110710.5d4534bc@posting.google.com> <3DFD0F92.803F3305@mindspring.com> <72f672b1.0212152240.206407b7@posting.google.com> <7368b27e.0212160355.42658e2c@posting.google.com> <3DFF5D23.4010203@null.net> Reply-To: steve@sliderule.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: sliderule.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1041458972 9403 80.177.21.188 (1 Jan 2003 22:09:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:09:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:125615 On 1 Jan 2003 03:41:46 GMT, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >In alt.folklore.computers Douglas A. Gwyn wrote: >> using them to make archival images (files copied to CD-ROM) >> of numerous magtapes. (I realize that CD-R media is not >> actually permanent either, but it should last until the >> next medium comes along.) > >Use the highest quality CD-R media you can get. The setup a schedule to >transfer the data to new media (say every 3-6 years). Also, don't make just >one copy, make several copies of each disk, and arrange for at least one set >to be stored off-site. > and get the original archive 'signed off' by the originator of the data. It's called watching your back..... up. >I'm working on a simular project. The first cut is sitting on a DVD-RW at >my parents. Once I finish it, I'll most likely be putting it on DVD-R. >Though I just might split it up so that it's on separate CD-R's. The >advantage of splitting the data over multiple CD-R's being, if something >happens to one or two of the disks, a lot of the data is still recoverable. > >Another thing about using CD-R's for archival purposes is, it's not just us >computer buff's. A lot of people are scanning in things and putting them on >CD-R's. My Mom spent a sizable amount of time this last summer scanning in >old family photographs. I think the last count had something like 12 CD-R's >worth of 600dpi images. CD and CD-R's are *VERY* popular for Geneology >information. The sad thing is, while a lot of us here are considering media >longevity, the average user isn't. > > Zane