From: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 18 Nov 2002 02:39:04 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 43 Message-ID: Reply-To: et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Black) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1037587144 17427 134.117.136.30 (18 Nov 2002 02:39:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2002 02:39:04 GMT X-Given-Sender: et472@freenet10.carleton.ca (Michael Black) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!et472 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121144 After posting earlier that I thought maybe the Ken Olsen quote about home computers might have been dated wrong, I realized I could easily find it. Right towards the end of it's run, Creative Computing magazine had a nice Tenth Anniversary issue, November 1984, full of various articles about the history of small computers. For those who have seen "Digital Deli" from the same year, the format is very similar. Anyway, there is an article about David Ahl, who founded the magazine, but who had worked at DEC before that. He did various things there, mainly related to using computers in education (including the publishing of "101 Basic Computer Games". Near the end, he was working on two standalone computers, one consisting of a VT-50 terminal with a PDP-8 jammed into it. The other was based on the PDP-11 and "was designed to fit into a very deep attache case", including a small floppy drive. He actually explored the idea of having it marketed by some companies, including Heathkit. He presented it to some managers, with the intent of further development, on May 17, 1974. They hemmed and hawed with the technical guys liking it, the marketing people worried about how it would impact the existing line. The decision goes up to Ken Olsen. There he says: "I can't see any reason that anyone would want a computer of his own." David Ahl defends Olsen, by suggesting that the assumption would be that people would have access to time-sharing systems. The same story is repeated in "Fire in the Valley". The date is significant in this case. The 1977 suggested by the original poster that brought up the quote was well along the curve (even if there was a lot more development afterwards). But 1974, only three years earlier, was quite a different time. There was no example of a home computer market, and virtually everyone who had one was using either surplus or had scrounged up the money for something like a PDP-8. 1974 would be just the very tiny beginnings of people at home building their own computer, which would make a jump in August when the Mark-8 was in Radio Electronics, and then in January 1975 a much bigger jump when the Altair was on the cover of Popular Electronics. Those first home computers were limited, but by 1977 there had been tremendous improvements. Michael ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Mon, 18 Nov 02 13:41:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZNp3DjCLeb9iRe0D3f2Z4D2HKFpRVVM5tJaj6uxiQrlaDo1byzTKc7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Nov 2002 14:06:04 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121134 In article , peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article , >Michael Black wrote: >> it would impact the existing line. The decision goes up to Ken Olsen. >> There he says: "I can't see any reason that anyone would want a >> computer of his own." David Ahl defends Olsen, by suggesting that >> the assumption would be that people would have access to time-sharing >> systems. > >Fair enough, if that was the reasoning. Though they didn't follow through >on either possibility. Sigh! But we did for a while. It was no accident that the -10s lasted for as long as they did after they got "cancelled". /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 34 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:30:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: news01.chello.no 1037619001 212.186.246.195 (Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:30:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:30:01 MET Organization: chello broadband Norway X-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:30:01 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uio.no!news01.chello.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121151 According to Michael Black : >After posting earlier that I thought maybe the Ken Olsen quote about >home computers might have been dated wrong, I realized I could easily >find it. [snip] >The same story is repeated in "Fire in the Valley". > >The date is significant in this case. The 1977 suggested by >the original poster that brought up the quote was well along the >curve (even if there was a lot more development afterwards). But >1974, only three years earlier, was quite a different time. There >was no example of a home computer market, and virtually everyone who >had one was using either surplus or had scrounged up the money for >something like a PDP-8. 1974 would be just the very tiny beginnings >of people at home building their own computer, which would make >a jump in August when the Mark-8 was in Radio Electronics, and >then in January 1975 a much bigger jump when the Altair was on >the cover of Popular Electronics. Those first home computers >were limited, but by 1977 there had been tremendous improvements. That is correct. 1975 was the year for the introduction of the "proof of concept" micros. Berfore that there was no micro market; only minis and mainframes. These computers needed a lot of electricity and support, and it was not very feasible for a single person to operate one for him/herself. Three years makes a lot of difference. But didn't Olsen reiterate that saying a few times later on? -- mrr ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 18 Nov 2002 13:46:30 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121142 In article , Michael Black wrote: > it would impact the existing line. The decision goes up to Ken Olsen. > There he says: "I can't see any reason that anyone would want a > computer of his own." David Ahl defends Olsen, by suggesting that > the assumption would be that people would have access to time-sharing > systems. Fair enough, if that was the reasoning. Though they didn't follow through on either possibility. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: ware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:54:46 GMT Organization: Aceware Programming Pty Ltd Message-ID: <3dd8e95f.51472957@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.54.231 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1037628198 6299 203.59.54.231 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121146 > 1974 would be just the very tiny beginnings >of people at home building their own computer, which would make >a jump in August when the Mark-8 was in Radio Electronics, and >then in January 1975 a much bigger jump when the Altair was on >the cover of Popular Electronics. Don't forget the Educ 8 in Electronics Australia 1974 to 1975 - it got beaten out by the Mark -8 by two weeks :-) http://www.aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/ItemDetail.asp?lngItemId=68 Tony ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Tue, 19 Nov 02 11:31:06 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbeYGXwf5unBqbg5QJeUp5dK4MT40AWlAncIJUnMLKrki2W+OCWml7f X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2002 11:55:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-249 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121189 In article <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Michael Black wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> The date is significant in this case. The 1977 suggested by >> the original poster that brought up the quote was well along the >> curve (even if there was a lot more development afterwards). But >> 1974, only three years earlier, was quite a different time. There >> was no example of a home computer market, and virtually everyone who >> had one was using either surplus or had scrounged up the money for >> something like a PDP-8. 1974 would be just the very tiny beginnings >> of people at home building their own computer, which would make >> a jump in August when the Mark-8 was in Radio Electronics, and >> then in January 1975 a much bigger jump when the Altair was on >> the cover of Popular Electronics. Those first home computers >> were limited, but by 1977 there had been tremendous improvements. >> >Okay, even accepting this date, this explanation at best >would make Mr. Olson a very poor visionary. I still think >that the term "short sighted" might apply. He was neither and he wasn't in business do either. Why does KO have to be visionary in order to deliver quality computing service? This is a production effort, not an inventive effort. > >I heard from a DEC employee once, that Ken Olson characterized >Unix as "snake oil", and did *not* want it running on DEC machines. >Is this more of his futuristic thinking??? I never heard this. However, note that Unix was a product of a competitor. I doubt KO would have said "snake oil" (that wasn't his style). However, paying somebody else to do the OS was definitely not DEC's style. If somebody outside was doing an OS that was going to go out on our distribution tapes, we hired him. There was an anathema about shipping third party's software. TOPS-10 found a loophole to get others' software on our distriubtion tapes (we called it the Customer Supported Tape). This meant we didn't support _any_ of it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Tue, 19 Nov 02 14:23:36 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa8ogHROvFJa5RPIkoQY8JEnpqjKyv4jx8/liBrX4Uv/172l+PVxaUy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2002 14:48:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsxfer.visi.net!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121187 In article , peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article , wrote: >> He was neither and he wasn't in business do either. Why >> does KO have to be visionary in order to deliver quality >> computing service? > >He doesn't, but that's not the job of the CEO. His job is to hire the >right guy to run the production facility, so he can keep on top of what >that facility should be doing. > >> I never heard this. However, note that Unix was a product >> of a competitor. > >AT&T was not competing with DEC here. They weren't legally allowed to, >and the vast majority of UNIX sales were on DEC hardware. And as you >say, he thought DEC was a hardware company. > >> I doubt KO would have said "snake oil" >> (that wasn't his style). However, paying somebody else >> to do the OS was definitely not DEC's style. If somebody >> outside was doing an OS that was going to go out on >> our distribution tapes, we hired him. There was an >> anathema about shipping third party's software. > >Apart from that being part of the problem... I don't think that was a part of the problem. There was no way we could support computer systems where we had no control over sources. We had enough problems "supporting" sites who claimed to be running field image but were causing themselves problems by diddling their bits without telling us or doing their own debugging. >What does any of that have to do with UNIX? I have no idea. I didn't bring it up. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1037701303 12.237.69.162 (Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:21:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:21:43 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:22:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121222 Michael Black wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > The date is significant in this case. The 1977 suggested by > the original poster that brought up the quote was well along the > curve (even if there was a lot more development afterwards). But > 1974, only three years earlier, was quite a different time. There > was no example of a home computer market, and virtually everyone who > had one was using either surplus or had scrounged up the money for > something like a PDP-8. 1974 would be just the very tiny beginnings > of people at home building their own computer, which would make > a jump in August when the Mark-8 was in Radio Electronics, and > then in January 1975 a much bigger jump when the Altair was on > the cover of Popular Electronics. Those first home computers > were limited, but by 1977 there had been tremendous improvements. > Okay, even accepting this date, this explanation at best would make Mr. Olson a very poor visionary. I still think that the term "short sighted" might apply. I heard from a DEC employee once, that Ken Olson characterized Unix as "snake oil", and did *not* want it running on DEC machines. Is this more of his futuristic thinking??? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 19 Nov 2002 13:56:02 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121202 In article , wrote: > He was neither and he wasn't in business do either. Why > does KO have to be visionary in order to deliver quality > computing service? He doesn't, but that's not the job of the CEO. His job is to hire the right guy to run the production facility, so he can keep on top of what that facility should be doing. > I never heard this. However, note that Unix was a product > of a competitor. AT&T was not competing with DEC here. They weren't legally allowed to, and the vast majority of UNIX sales were on DEC hardware. And as you say, he thought DEC was a hardware company. > I doubt KO would have said "snake oil" > (that wasn't his style). However, paying somebody else > to do the OS was definitely not DEC's style. If somebody > outside was doing an OS that was going to go out on > our distribution tapes, we hired him. There was an > anathema about shipping third party's software. Apart from that being part of the problem... What does any of that have to do with UNIX? -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Wed, 20 Nov 02 12:49:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 92 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZbVKmEHdCscv9IaNdSxnSNaIMIPW+V703zM77Ni3GDWYlvBt8C40vT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Nov 2002 13:14:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.voicenet.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121251 In article <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> > >> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> > Okay, even accepting this date, this explanation at best >> > would make Mr. Olson a very poor visionary. I still think >> > that the term "short sighted" might apply. >> >> He was neither and he wasn't in business do either. Why >> does KO have to be visionary in order to deliver quality >> computing service? This is a production effort, not an >> inventive effort. >> >Unfortunately, in the ever-evolving world of electronics and >computers, one *does* have to be a visionary. If you don't see >tomorrow coming, it will knock you up-side the head!!! You do not. There used be a saying that TW would quote: something about yesterday's technology delivered tomorrow (there was also a today clause but I never could remember how it went). > >I am *not* saying that I want it to be this way...I'm saying >that's the way things are. But they aren't that way. They may seem to be that way because people take old stuff and repackage it differently. > ..Sometimes it is kinda fun...and >it may be the only real lever we have to unseat Billy Boy. >But it is uncomfortable always to have to learn new things >every week. The penalty for *not* doing it...is a quick >obsolecense of your skills and then you are irrelevant. Look. It would take me about 2 days to "learn" the rudimentary rules of a new language. It would take me about 2 hours to learn the rudimentary rules of a new OS. These are only "interface" rules. Computing tends to have basic underlying functions; all one has to do is learn the "translations" to get at them. Learning a new formatting language falls under the same category of rule-based learning. weeellll...I'll take that back. There is no rule-based learning w.r.t. the fucking point-click generation. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the biz would be much better off if we fed DDT to all rodent devices. >> >> > I heard from a DEC employee once, that Ken Olson characterized >> > Unix as "snake oil", and did *not* want it running on DEC machines. >> > Is this more of his futuristic thinking??? >> >> I never heard this. However, note that Unix was a product >> of a competitor. I doubt KO would have said "snake oil" >> (that wasn't his style). However, paying somebody else >> to do the OS was definitely not DEC's style. If somebody >> outside was doing an OS that was going to go out on >> our distribution tapes, we hired him. There was an >> anathema about shipping third party's software. >> TOPS-10 found a loophole to get others' software on >> our distriubtion tapes (we called it the Customer >> Supported Tape). This meant we didn't support _any_ >> of it. >> >Most of the software I enjoyed on our DEC-20 at college... >was *not* written by DEC. Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating system was TOPS-20. > .. There were a couple of Pascal >compilers and a SNOBOL4 interpreter. And of course the >games that were available. Students spent so much time >playing Adventure and Zork, that these were only useable >on the first two weeks of school. That kept the gamers >from hogging all the CPU cycles... I am talking about DELIVERING COMPUTING SERVICES. That is the hard/software that typed a dot on TOPS-10 and a (WTF did TOPS20 print?...I am embarassed beyond belief) thingie on TOPS20 so you could say PASCAL or SNOBOL to your terminal and get what you expect. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 20 Nov 02 09:46:02 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <1783.89T136T5863937@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-163.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121270 In article <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >But it is uncomfortable always to have to learn new things >every week. The penalty for *not* doing it...is a quick >obsolecense of your skills and then you are irrelevant. Unfortunately, this is used more as a weapon by vendors than as a way of improving things for the customer. When a PPOE underwent what I call "management by invasion", switched over to a database, and hired lots of new staff, I suddenly realized that the new management team had come up with a sinister way of dealing with us experienced old hands who had nothing more to offer than ten years' experience at keeping the place running. They simply invalidated our knowledge. Needless to say, there was a mass exodus - and not just from the computer department. I wonder how long it took them (and how many dollars) before they got back to where they were before the madness started - or if they ever did. But I'll never know - never have I severed ties so completely with a former employer as I did the day I walked out that door. But I'm ranting again. As for (planned) obsolescence of skills, IMHO it's overrated. Yes, there's a certain amount of learning involved to keep current - but the basics are unfortunately being forgotten in the push for shiny new things. The new toys somehow lose their luster when things go sideways - and that's when people like us come in handy. We might not know all the latest buzzwords, but somehow we manage to get things going again. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 20 Nov 02 10:01:27 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <802.89T1354T6014303@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-513.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121266 In article tbuskey@toshi-tpb.at.home (x) writes: >This comment is always taken out of context. Ken Olson said something >along the lines of: Everyone is touting Unix as the answer to all your >problems, not matter what they are, much like a snake oil salesman. > >Of course, no one would say Unix (or Windows) will that'll solve all >your problems these days! Hell, not only will Windoze solve all your problems, it'll create a whole new set for you. Now that's what I call a Total Solution [tm]. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### Message-ID: <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1037776716 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:18:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:18:36 GMT Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:18:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!proxad.net!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!news-xfer.cox.net!cox.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121290 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Okay, even accepting this date, this explanation at best > > would make Mr. Olson a very poor visionary. I still think > > that the term "short sighted" might apply. > > He was neither and he wasn't in business do either. Why > does KO have to be visionary in order to deliver quality > computing service? This is a production effort, not an > inventive effort. > Unfortunately, in the ever-evolving world of electronics and computers, one *does* have to be a visionary. If you don't see tomorrow coming, it will knock you up-side the head!!! I am *not* saying that I want it to be this way...I'm saying that's the way things are. Sometimes it is kinda fun...and it may be the only real lever we have to unseat Billy Boy. But it is uncomfortable always to have to learn new things every week. The penalty for *not* doing it...is a quick obsolecense of your skills and then you are irrelevant. > > > I heard from a DEC employee once, that Ken Olson characterized > > Unix as "snake oil", and did *not* want it running on DEC machines. > > Is this more of his futuristic thinking??? > > I never heard this. However, note that Unix was a product > of a competitor. I doubt KO would have said "snake oil" > (that wasn't his style). However, paying somebody else > to do the OS was definitely not DEC's style. If somebody > outside was doing an OS that was going to go out on > our distribution tapes, we hired him. There was an > anathema about shipping third party's software. > TOPS-10 found a loophole to get others' software on > our distriubtion tapes (we called it the Customer > Supported Tape). This meant we didn't support _any_ > of it. > Most of the software I enjoyed on our DEC-20 at college... was *not* written by DEC. There were a couple of Pascal compilers and a SNOBOL4 interpreter. And of course the games that were available. Students spent so much time playing Adventure and Zork, that these were only useable on the first two weeks of school. That kept the gamers from hogging all the CPU cycles... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3DDB5398.D8150791@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1037776957 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:22:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:22:37 GMT Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:22:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121289 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...] > > I don't think that was a part of the problem. There was > no way we could support computer systems where we had no > control over sources. We had enough problems "supporting" > sites who claimed to be running field image but were causing > themselves problems by diddling their bits without telling > us or doing their own debugging. > Shoot me if I am wrong (I can hear you folks "locking and loading" already!!!), but my impression was that the companies that had a version of UNIX running on their boxes...those companies *had* a source license and did their own maintenance and update of their UNIX. I'm pretty sure that Data General (DG/UX) and HP (HP/UX) had that much control and did their own maintenance and new releases of the OS. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:49:26 +1300 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 89 Message-ID: <3DDB3E86.1070802@es.co.nz> References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p56-max2.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1037778589 5931 203.173.222.248 (20 Nov 2002 07:49:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:49:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121294 Charles Richmond wrote: > Unfortunately, in the ever-evolving world of electronics and > computers, one *does* have to be a visionary. If you don't see > tomorrow coming, it will knock you up-side the head!!! > > I am *not* saying that I want it to be this way...I'm saying > that's the way things are. Sometimes it is kinda fun...and > it may be the only real lever we have to unseat Billy Boy. > But it is uncomfortable always to have to learn new things > every week. The penalty for *not* doing it...is a quick > obsolecense of your skills and then you are irrelevant. The following quotes are all from my signature database. I don't have any references to their source, so "quotes" would be more appropriate. They all deal with future vision, or rather a lack of it :-) To be fair, some of them are undoubtedly taken out of context, but they still sound funny now: "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home" Ken Olson, President of DEC, World Future Society Convention, 1977 "So we went to Atari and said, 'We've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts and what do you think about funding us? Or we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' They said 'No'. Then we went to Hewlett-Packard; they said, 'We don't need you. You haven't got through college yet'." Apple Computer founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons" Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 "I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957 "It would appear that we have reached the limits of what it is possible to achieve with computer technology, although one should be careful with such statements, as they tend to sound pretty silly in 5 years." John Von Neumann (circa 1949) "But what is it good for?" Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM commenting on the micro chip, 1968 "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920's. "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us" Western Union memo, 1876 "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" - HM Warner, Warner Bros, 1927 -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - FutureCop:LAPD - iMac Game Wizard http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws/ ###### From: x Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Organization: x Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> User-Agent: Pan/0.11.3 (Unix) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Comment-To: "Charles Richmond" Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.235.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1037804724 24.128.235.160 (Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:05:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:05:24 GMT Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:05:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121286 On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 05:22:47 -0500, Charles Richmond wrote: > Michael Black wrote: > Okay, even accepting this date, this explanation at best would make Mr. > Olson a very poor visionary. I still think that the term "short sighted" > might apply. > > I heard from a DEC employee once, that Ken Olson characterized Unix as > "snake oil", and did *not* want it running on DEC machines. Is this more > of his futuristic thinking??? This comment is always taken out of context. Ken Olson said something along the lines of: Everyone is touting Unix as the answer to all your problems, not matter what they are, much like a snake oil salesman. Of course, no one would say Unix (or Windows) will that'll solve all your problems these days! ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:15:09 -0000 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1037805334 15417 80.177.7.220 (20 Nov 2002 15:15:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:15:34 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121281 wrote in message news:arg1rg$3cv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with > your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating > system was TOPS-20. [SNIP] Can you clear this one up for me Barb ? I thought TOPS-20 started out as a port of TENEX (written *OUTSIDE* DEC)... Is that true ? Cheers, Rupert ###### From: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 20 Nov 2002 14:29:20 -0500 Organization: Lakewood MicroSystems Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!shell.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121267 In article , wrote: >However, note that Unix was a product >of a competitor. I doubt KO would have said "snake oil" >(that wasn't his style). > >/BAH > > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Nah, DEC even sold it and supported it out of Nashua. DEC's problem was the ridiculous idea Unix was an OPEN SYSTEM. Access to VAX/VMS microfiche was cheaper than a Unix source license. But most college trained engineers had a couple of source tapes buried back in their houses for when they needed it. Colleges weren't known for data security then and AT&T really never went after them to keep it under lock and key. Bill -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Thu, 21 Nov 02 12:55:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbIYVmVJo1kWIqUhXTC4WjgSmTGMlLUKZZzVfE2uNF4ntezK7ZbW3Xl X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2002 13:20:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-201 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121378 In article , peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article , wrote: >> I don't think that was a part of the problem. There was >> no way we could support computer systems where we had no >> control over sources. > >I'm not sure I understand what the issue is. Certainly >when DEC *did* start >shipping UNIX for the 11 and VAX (Ultrix) they didn't ship sources... But the developers and sources were all in-house. Third party software was problematic. We never figured out how to handle it. Please note that those Unixes were out in the 80s..not the 70s. I swear the development was done on a shoestring based on my very limited exposure whilst certifying DECnet. Come to think of it, I didn't have to certify against a "Unix" so it didn't exist as a product in the early 80s. >At any rate, the "UNIX is snake-oil" comment doesn't seem to have been >related to this issue. Yup. It appeared to be a quote out of context. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Thu, 21 Nov 02 13:09:06 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 120 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> <3DDC38B8.8CE7E831@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYrcnOV4bJ6XSOA3GPl2KzV9b45+DIKj9yg3GFWoJmOeheC+Em6gaGr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2002 13:34:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-201 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121381 In article <3DDC38B8.8CE7E831@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> > >> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> > Unfortunately, in the ever-evolving world of electronics and >> > computers, one *does* have to be a visionary. If you don't see >> > tomorrow coming, it will knock you up-side the head!!! >> >> You do not. There used be a saying that TW would quote: >> something about yesterday's technology delivered tomorrow >> (there was also a today clause but I never could remember >> how it went). >> >> > >> >I am *not* saying that I want it to be this way...I'm saying >> >that's the way things are. >> >> But they aren't that way. They may seem to be that way because >> people take old stuff and repackage it differently. >> >There is some of that going on...but there *are* technological >advances. The microprocessor was a technological advance. Each >new generation of processor is faster and has more transistors. Sure. That has to happen for progress. My point is that KO didn't have to be one of those innovators to have a successful computing service business. We had R&D, too. But it was a very small part of Digital Equipment Corporation. It even got smaller in the early 70s because number crunchers insisted that R&D should not be 8% of the funding. (In the early 70s, they gave a ridiculous figure, IMO, that it "should" be.) >> > ..Sometimes it is kinda fun...and >> >it may be the only real lever we have to unseat Billy Boy. >> >But it is uncomfortable always to have to learn new things >> >every week. The penalty for *not* doing it...is a quick >> >obsolecense of your skills and then you are irrelevant. >> >> Look. It would take me about 2 days to "learn" the rudimentary >> rules of a new language. It would take me about 2 hours to >> learn the rudimentary rules of a new OS. These are only >> "interface" rules. Computing tends to have basic underlying >> functions; all one has to do is learn the "translations" to >> get at them. >> >Even for the object-oriented languages, learning the rules is *not* >all that difficult. Longer than two days perhaps, but *not* all >that difficult. I was talking about learning the basic "rules"; not learning all the quirks :-). That could take centuries. > ..But the analysis and design of applications for >object oriented languages is a whole new ball game. And learning >the "flavor of the week" language is a pain...especially when >the language does *not* offer any significant advantage over >last week's language. >> >> Learning a new formatting language falls under >> the same category of rule-based learning. weeellll...I'll take >> that back. There is no rule-based learning w.r.t. the fucking >> point-click generation. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion >> that the biz would be much better off if we fed DDT to all >> rodent devices. >> >I understand why you rail against the UDFH (user device from hell), >but the infestation of these little pests is deep rooted now. Still, >there is *no* substitute for actually knowing what you are doing. >(At least, unless the substitute is "dumb luck"...) For years now, I've been trying to grow up to be a dumb luser. Unfortunately, the crap from Misoft keeps undermining that goal. >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> >Most of the software I enjoyed on our DEC-20 at college... >> >was *not* written by DEC. >> >> Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with >> your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating >> system was TOPS-20. >> >Surely, the code was compiled or assembled by software provided >by DEC. Of that I have little doubt... When you think of a computing system, you have to think about all the underlying infrastructure. When you said RUN FOO there was an enormous amount of code that had to be executed, on and off your site, in order for your core image to get stuffed in the PC. /BAH >> >> > .. There were a couple of Pascal >> >compilers and a SNOBOL4 interpreter. And of course the >> >games that were available. Students spent so much time >> >playing Adventure and Zork, that these were only useable >> >on the first two weeks of school. That kept the gamers >> >from hogging all the CPU cycles... >> >> I am talking about DELIVERING COMPUTING SERVICES. That is >> the hard/software that typed a dot on TOPS-10 and a (WTF >> did TOPS20 print?...I am embarassed beyond belief) >> thingie on TOPS20 so you could say PASCAL or SNOBOL >> to your terminal and get what you expect. >> >Yes, BAH, I realize that the OS was produced by DEC. And >any application that you use on the -20 depends on the OS >for essential services. I was quite fond of TOPS-20. I did >*not* have the opportunity to do much work with TOPS-10. > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Thu, 21 Nov 02 13:19:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaPAH9K0+SRRo6I62QIuSPfIJYbSPCY3Vr7d3Wydn5XWxbMdcYqk6FF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2002 13:44:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-201 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121372 In article , pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) wrote: >In article , wrote: > >>However, note that Unix was a product >>of a competitor. I doubt KO would have said "snake oil" >>(that wasn't his style). > >Nah, DEC even sold it and supported it out of Nashua. Not in the 70s. JMF did a Unix SMP in the 80s and that OS had to be licensed. It was not a DEC OS. The Ultrix and whatever-the-hell-that-Unix-was development evolution was very strange. The Unix seemed to pop out as a direct in-house competitor for Ultrix. Note that this activity seen through Marlboro-colored glasses so a lot of the -11's local politics never reached our ears. I do know that I never had to certify against a thingie called Unix; thus it was not a Digital OS product at the time the -10s shipped Phase II, Phase III, and Phase IV of DECnet. >DEC's problem was the ridiculous idea Unix was an OPEN SYSTEM. >Access to VAX/VMS microfiche was cheaper than a Unix source license. DEC's problem by that time (now we're talking about mid 80s) was the direct effect of telling its customers to go fuck themselves. > >But most college trained engineers had a couple of source tapes buried >back in their houses for when they needed it. > >Colleges weren't known for data security then and AT&T really never went >after them to keep it under lock and key. In order for DEC to do any business with AT&T sources, they had to do it officially. We could not have "hidden" tapes in the back room and ship those bits. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 21 Nov 02 12:21:29 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <987.90T1450T7415139@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <802.89T1354T6014303@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3DDC3995.DAEB4482@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-637.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121407 In article <3DDC3995.DAEB4482@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> Hell, not only will Windoze solve all your problems, it'll create a >> whole new set for you. Now that's what I call a Total Solution [tm]. > >That's right!!! Mi$uck is in the unique position of being able >to *cause* all the problems for you...and then solve them. We >are still waiting for Mi$uck to *solve* them... (I am sure it >will be in the next release...) At least IBM, in the Good Old Days [tm] would solve the problems that they created - because that way they could portray themselves as heroes. M$ portrays themselves as heroes without solving the problems, which I suppose is a step forward from their standpoint. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Fri, 22 Nov 02 10:52:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZbLf4rN5UEe6OJTGurO3/d2V5puViw4wZ3nRVOD7M7+pOEvJv0MzD/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 2002 11:17:57 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-130 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121389 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:arg1rg$3cv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >[SNIP] > >> Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with >> your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating >> system was TOPS-20. > >[SNIP] > >Can you clear this one up for me Barb ? I thought TOPS-20 started >out as a port of TENEX (written *OUTSIDE* DEC)... Is that true ? Yes. DEC never shipped or supported the code when it was known as TENEX. You don't seem to understand the difference. I'm not talking about software evolution; I'm talking about code shipped. I'm also talking about the code that has to be executed in order for a user to "see" one character that he typed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3DDC38B8.8CE7E831@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 94 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1037835614 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:40:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:40:14 GMT Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:40:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121472 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Unfortunately, in the ever-evolving world of electronics and > > computers, one *does* have to be a visionary. If you don't see > > tomorrow coming, it will knock you up-side the head!!! > > You do not. There used be a saying that TW would quote: > something about yesterday's technology delivered tomorrow > (there was also a today clause but I never could remember > how it went). > > > > >I am *not* saying that I want it to be this way...I'm saying > >that's the way things are. > > But they aren't that way. They may seem to be that way because > people take old stuff and repackage it differently. > There is some of that going on...but there *are* technological advances. The microprocessor was a technological advance. Each new generation of processor is faster and has more transistors. > > > ..Sometimes it is kinda fun...and > >it may be the only real lever we have to unseat Billy Boy. > >But it is uncomfortable always to have to learn new things > >every week. The penalty for *not* doing it...is a quick > >obsolecense of your skills and then you are irrelevant. > > Look. It would take me about 2 days to "learn" the rudimentary > rules of a new language. It would take me about 2 hours to > learn the rudimentary rules of a new OS. These are only > "interface" rules. Computing tends to have basic underlying > functions; all one has to do is learn the "translations" to > get at them. > Even for the object-oriented languages, learning the rules is *not* all that difficult. Longer than two days perhaps, but *not* all that difficult. But the analysis and design of applications for object oriented languages is a whole new ball game. And learning the "flavor of the week" language is a pain...especially when the language does *not* offer any significant advantage over last week's language. > > Learning a new formatting language falls under > the same category of rule-based learning. weeellll...I'll take > that back. There is no rule-based learning w.r.t. the fucking > point-click generation. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion > that the biz would be much better off if we fed DDT to all > rodent devices. > I understand why you rail against the UDFH (user device from hell), but the infestation of these little pests is deep rooted now. Still, there is *no* substitute for actually knowing what you are doing. (At least, unless the substitute is "dumb luck"...) > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > >Most of the software I enjoyed on our DEC-20 at college... > >was *not* written by DEC. > > Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with > your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating > system was TOPS-20. > Surely, the code was compiled or assembled by software provided by DEC. Of that I have little doubt... > > > .. There were a couple of Pascal > >compilers and a SNOBOL4 interpreter. And of course the > >games that were available. Students spent so much time > >playing Adventure and Zork, that these were only useable > >on the first two weeks of school. That kept the gamers > >from hogging all the CPU cycles... > > I am talking about DELIVERING COMPUTING SERVICES. That is > the hard/software that typed a dot on TOPS-10 and a (WTF > did TOPS20 print?...I am embarassed beyond belief) > thingie on TOPS20 so you could say PASCAL or SNOBOL > to your terminal and get what you expect. > Yes, BAH, I realize that the OS was produced by DEC. And any application that you use on the -20 depends on the OS for essential services. I was quite fond of TOPS-20. I did *not* have the opportunity to do much work with TOPS-10. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3DDC3995.DAEB4482@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <802.89T1354T6014303@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1037835834 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:43:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:43:54 GMT Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:43:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121470 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article > tbuskey@toshi-tpb.at.home (x) writes: > > >This comment is always taken out of context. Ken Olson said something > >along the lines of: Everyone is touting Unix as the answer to all your > >problems, not matter what they are, much like a snake oil salesman. > > > >Of course, no one would say Unix (or Windows) will that'll solve all > >your problems these days! > > Hell, not only will Windoze solve all your problems, it'll create a > whole new set for you. Now that's what I call a Total Solution [tm]. > That's right!!! Mi$uck is in the unique position of being able to *cause* all the problems for you...and then solve them. We are still waiting for Mi$uck to *solve* them... (I am sure it will be in the next release...) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 21 Nov 2002 01:44:22 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.net.uni-c.dk!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121414 In article , wrote: > Look. It would take me about 2 days to "learn" the rudimentary > rules of a new language. It would take me about 2 hours to > learn the rudimentary rules of a new OS. Try it with C++ or Windows NT. These newfangled "simpler" languages and operating systems are amazingly complex, and to do anything useful you need to learn a couple of dozen separate and unique APIs that have nothing in common with each other, since every library, module, DLL, COM object, object library, what have you... every one has been designed by a separate group who didn't talk to (or even get along with) any of the others, and each of which is larger and more complex than TOPS-20 or FORTRAN. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 21 Nov 2002 02:20:47 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!panix!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121415 In article , Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > Nah, DEC even sold it and supported it out of Nashua. > DEC's problem was the ridiculous idea Unix was an OPEN SYSTEM. > Access to VAX/VMS microfiche was cheaper than a Unix source license. "Open System" is not and never has been a synonym for "Open Source". This is a mistake that a lot of people make. Mozilla is "Open Source", for example... but one look at that source will tell you that it's not based on freely published and documented interfaces and protocols... unless you count the source code as "publication"... so it's not much of an open system. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:50:16 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Message-ID: <20021121085016.484aef19.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2002 18:16:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p1325.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=S_Th`iSQCjF^BA5i@7`X0O1`\LnN2UYYAn_JUBe2W@NBBn?eXoXMn:BNfmWl:U\ Try it with C++ or Windows NT. These newfangled "simpler" languages PDS> and operating systems are amazingly complex, and to do anything PDS> useful you need to learn a couple of dozen separate and unique APIs Then go look at Java (Beans, EJB, J2EE, servlets ...) and a quick review of the backwards compatability. You will discover how transparently simple and well designed C++ and NT seem by comparison. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:24:49 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1037914366snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> <3DDB3E86.1070802@es.co.nz> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1037928289 683 10.0.0.1 (22 Nov 2002 01:24:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:24:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18F2Yq-0000AR-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Fri, 22 Nov 2002 01:24:48 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121489 In article <3DDB3E86.1070802@es.co.nz> rojaws@es.co.nz "Roger Johnstone" writes: > The following quotes are all from my signature database. I don't have > any references to their source, so "quotes" would be more appropriate. > They all deal with future vision, or rather a lack of it :-) To be fair, > some of them are undoubtedly taken out of context, but they still sound > funny now: > > > > "There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home" > > Ken Olson, President of DEC, World Future Society Convention, 1977 [snip] There's a few web-sites around with quotes such as these. I know of two that are predominantly telecoms related, although I can't find one at present; the other is -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sat, 23 Nov 02 12:12:35 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB5398.D8150791@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaSxqJifOHeMfMUchiMFnQ/76PgxQQ8oMVGupKxjL/MY3YB7aUxtbur X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 2002 12:38:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-157 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121600 In article <3DDB5398.D8150791@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...] >> >> I don't think that was a part of the problem. There was >> no way we could support computer systems where we had no >> control over sources. We had enough problems "supporting" >> sites who claimed to be running field image but were causing >> themselves problems by diddling their bits without telling >> us or doing their own debugging. >> >Shoot me if I am wrong (I can hear you folks "locking and >loading" already!!!), Why? ;-) > .. but my impression was that the companies >that had a version of UNIX running on their boxes...those >companies *had* a source license and did their own maintenance >and update of their UNIX. I'm pretty sure that Data General >(DG/UX) and HP (HP/UX) had that much control and did their >own maintenance and new releases of the OS. I have no idea. I think that one of the problems with tracing Unix history is the lack of source control. Once there was a "spin-off", there was essentially a new OS that had _some_ common programming philosophy. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sat, 23 Nov 02 14:25:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZP5g9gXUbB3qv+FGLaclqXxntdrPtJdNXQysQlzGByRZ4EV0WiB4HR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Nov 2002 14:51:25 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-235-180 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121554 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:arl3p5$qjj$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article , >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> > wrote in message >news:arg1rg$3cv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >> >[SNIP] >> > >> >> Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with >> >> your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating >> >> system was TOPS-20. >> > >> >[SNIP] >> > >> >Can you clear this one up for me Barb ? I thought TOPS-20 started >> >out as a port of TENEX (written *OUTSIDE* DEC)... Is that true ? >> >> Yes. DEC never shipped or supported the code when it was known >> as TENEX. You don't seem to understand the difference. I'm >> not talking about software evolution; I'm talking about code >> shipped. I'm also talking about the code that has to be >> executed in order for a user to "see" one character that he typed. > >It sounds like you are implying that DEC re-wrote the majority of the >TOPS-20 codebase after the port. Must have been a wild ride. :) [emoticon losing patience] You have no idea what I'm talking about. The code wasn't "ported". I suggest that you pick on my lack of hardware knowledge to prove how stupid I am. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sun, 24 Nov 02 11:12:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZdEuI/bj2ATWBKKeng1wKHEBgInKiidEpL+rZTHy/hRe/QmCmVHXW9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2002 11:37:56 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-87 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121574 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:aro4ld$bu3$3@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article , >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> > wrote in message >news:arl3p5$qjj$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >> >> In article , >> >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> >> > wrote in message >> >news:arg1rg$3cv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >> >> >[SNIP] >> >> > >> >> >> Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with >> >> >> your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating >> >> >> system was TOPS-20. >> >> > >> >> >[SNIP] >> >> > >> >> >Can you clear this one up for me Barb ? I thought TOPS-20 started >> >> >out as a port of TENEX (written *OUTSIDE* DEC)... Is that true ? >> >> >> >> Yes. DEC never shipped or supported the code when it was known >> >> as TENEX. You don't seem to understand the difference. I'm >> >> not talking about software evolution; I'm talking about code >> >> shipped. I'm also talking about the code that has to be >> >> executed in order for a user to "see" one character that he typed. >> > >> >It sounds like you are implying that DEC re-wrote the majority of the >> >TOPS-20 codebase after the port. Must have been a wild ride. :) >> >> [emoticon losing patience] You have no idea what I'm talking >> about. The code wasn't "ported". >> >> I suggest that you pick on my lack of hardware knowledge to >> prove how stupid I am. > >Not at all. I was just baffled. The web page I read on the origins of >TOPS-20 >suggested that it was very much something written elsewhere but adopted by >DEC. And, if you reread what I've said in some other post, DEC didn't ship software it did NOT support. When the TENEX work came inhouse, there was a hell of a lot of development done before the first ship. > >I *think* this is where I got that impression from - was a while ago : >http://www.linique.com/dlm/tenex/hbook.html > >Specifically : >"TOPS-20 was first announced as a DEC product and shipped in January, 1976. >Development had started in 1973 based on TENEX[1], an operating system for >the PDP-10 then in use at a number of research installations around the coun >try." > >and > >"The outcome of this was that I went to work for DEC -- as a contractor. I >contracted with DEC for a fixed-time (3 months), fixed-price contract to >make TENEX run on the KI10[6]. Clearly, the DEC internal processes >were not about to create a real project around TENEX at this point, but a >one-man 3-month contract must have seemed an acceptably small risk." > >Certainly a lot of work went into that after the initial port. Like I said >must >have bee a wild ride, that paper is an interesting read. Three man-months is not a very long time when you're talking about operating system development. In addition to the monitor code, a lot of work had to be done just to verify that everything else would work. A monitor is not very interesting if it doesn't get shipped with the tools that 1. build it and 2. make the computer system useful. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sun, 24 Nov 02 11:16:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3DDB5398.D8150791@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGVxEkY6a9+85Ipt3Pbn1st+bQ/ZqVcuoBeqy4vxBBRiPirRJMzD2a X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2002 11:42:03 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-87 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121573 In article , peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article , wrote: >> I have no idea. I think that one of the problems with tracing >> Unix history is the lack of source control. Once there was >> a "spin-off", there was essentially a new OS that had _some_ >> common programming philosophy. > >My position since the '80s has been that UNIX is a family of operating >systems with a common design and core API. So that's not far off. I wouldn't go that far (calling it a common design). That's why I said "philosophy". One of the reasons, there were splits was because the designs were different, e.g., file system and network service. Note that I'm talking based on research JMF did; I never personally looked at them. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sun, 24 Nov 02 12:53:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 133 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ1Ei247pRWqSNf5v3Aa6IpNrqlCYUkOopKToLFSrbCTSfZVTF4GXjy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2002 13:19:05 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-87 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121540 In article , pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) wrote: >In article , wrote: >> >>Not in the 70s. JMF did a Unix SMP in the 80s and that >>OS had to be licensed. It was not a DEC OS. The Ultrix >>and whatever-the-hell-that-Unix-was development evolution >>was very strange. The Unix seemed to pop out as a direct >>in-house competitor for Ultrix. Note that this activity >>seen through Marlboro-colored glasses so a lot of the -11's >>local politics never reached our ears. > >Yup... there were two major Unix development groups... > >And... in my opinion Ultrix was Unix as much as AT&T Unix was. (But I >have a Berkeley bias here... even though I worked at Bell Labs for a few >years.) > >Here's my old history major at work -- a short history of Unix >development. > >AT&T's true Unix believers went with System V -- which had it's roots >in System III from Western Electric, which had it's roots in the >5th, 6th and 7th editions from Bell Labs. > >Berkeley's folks did the BSD releases based as patches and rewrites >toe the Bell Labs 6th and 7th edition. The analyses that JMF and others did decided that Berkeley's did networking better, but System V did file systems better; none did them as well as TOPS-10 ;-). > >Bell Labs continued with the 8'th edition which incorporated some of the >BSD stuff. > >>I do know that I never had to certify against a thingie called >>Unix; thus it was not a Digital OS product at the time the -10s >>shipped Phase II, Phase III, and Phase IV of DECnet. > >AT&T Unix was an OS that didn't support DECnet so there was >no need to certify against it. Aha! That might be the reason, but my certification plan was supposed to mention everything I wouldn't be certifying against and the reasons for it. I don't remember having to write about Unix. I may have written it; I just don't remember doing it. > >DEC was a source licensee to AT&T -- so they could do contract >development on System V as well as sell a BSD-Based Unix called Ultrix. > >As well as sell Ultrix-11, a modified AT&T 7th Edition Unix. > >DEC then went into RISC workstations and decided (after AT&T went into a >deal with Sun to develop "ONE TRUE UNIX" ) to build a NON-AT&T Unix >with IBM (who had AIX as it's BSD and SysV mix and) and HP (who had >HP-UX). HP got involved with both the Sun and AT&T groups and finally >ended up backing the AT&T horse with Sun. > >The IBM and DEC thing became OSF/1 which became the start of DEC Unix, >later known as Tru64. > >I believe this is the Alpha SMP Unix you're thinking of. I don't think so. JMF's SMP was a System V source. (It took them literally months to decide on a SOUP source.) IIRC, the OSF stuff came after JMF did the SMP Unix implementation. He thought it was his chance to finally design an OS from the ground up and doing it "right". He had no intention of reinventing yet another Unix when he started doing the architecture work. As you've described, none of this happened. > >>DEC's problem by that time (now we're talking about mid 80s) was >>the direct effect of telling its customers to go fuck themselves. > >Yup. The most of that was caused by the assinine idea to do just >one architecture and go away from the Real-Time stuff on the 11 and not >oem the VAX chips. That was just another insult on top of many. The message began when it was announced at DECUS in 1977(?) that 6.04 would be the last TOPS-10 monitor and SMP would not be in 6.04. > >>>But most college trained engineers had a couple of source tapes buried >>>back in their houses for when they needed it. > >>>Colleges weren't known for data security then and AT&T really never went >>>after them to keep it under lock and key. > >>In order for DEC to do any business with AT&T sources, they had >>to do it officially. We could not have "hidden" tapes in the >>back room and ship those bits. >Sure... but most of the college engineers who went into the Unix >software business had a set of bootleg tapes and listings at home. I'm not trying to say it didn't happen. I am trying to describe how the Real World had to do operating system business. > >These folks grew up to found much of the workstation business >and this ended up undercutting DEC's VAX business as well as the PDP 11 >Real Time stuff which went to things like RTU from Masscomp and other >Unix derived os's. > >Hope this makes some sense... Well, between you and me and a bunch of others, we might be able to describe how things work and how to turn them to shit without even trying ;-). It appears that People Who Should Know Better are describing those days with very, very selective memory. > >Gives me something to write while I'm installing VAX/VMS 7.2 and BSD >Unix on the linux PC here. Who would have thought that this could ever happen. People looked at me as if I were nuts when I insisted (in 1984) that one computer system should be able to run any OS from the point of view of the user. What people are doing today is way beyond anything I would have dared to think of. I'm so proud of them and awed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sun, 24 Nov 02 14:03:19 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ+PwY3730jt+tHW9TETz7KpgZ+KFN26TqX96j2gJwOBnN+ie30zTDK X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2002 14:28:59 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-201 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121586 In article , peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article , wrote: >> I wouldn't go that far (calling it a common design). That's why >> I said "philosophy". One of the reasons, there were splits was >> because the designs were different, e.g., file system and network >> service. > >The file system itself was not part of the design, I find that difficult to believe. > ... the interface between >applications and the file system was. Of course. But there has to be a design that allows that interface to call the file system code. Even very rudimentary OSes have I/O handlers. Perhaps we've a schism between our use of the phrases? > >Network services on UNIX have almost nothing to do with the UNIX design, >though Berkeley sockets are less messed up than some. Still, they are >not all that UNIXy and I wouldn't call any of them part of the system. Right. That's why they were a mess ;-^ [there's tongue in that thar emoticon's cheek]. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 22 Nov 2002 20:49:26 -0500 Organization: Lakewood MicroSystems Lines: 97 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!shell.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121613 In article , wrote: > >Not in the 70s. JMF did a Unix SMP in the 80s and that >OS had to be licensed. It was not a DEC OS. The Ultrix >and whatever-the-hell-that-Unix-was development evolution >was very strange. The Unix seemed to pop out as a direct >in-house competitor for Ultrix. Note that this activity >seen through Marlboro-colored glasses so a lot of the -11's >local politics never reached our ears. Yup... there were two major Unix development groups... And... in my opinion Ultrix was Unix as much as AT&T Unix was. (But I have a Berkeley bias here... even though I worked at Bell Labs for a few years.) Here's my old history major at work -- a short history of Unix development. AT&T's true Unix believers went with System V -- which had it's roots in System III from Western Electric, which had it's roots in the 5th, 6th and 7th editions from Bell Labs. Berkeley's folks did the BSD releases based as patches and rewrites toe the Bell Labs 6th and 7th edition. Bell Labs continued with the 8'th edition which incorporated some of the BSD stuff. >I do know that I never had to certify against a thingie called >Unix; thus it was not a Digital OS product at the time the -10s >shipped Phase II, Phase III, and Phase IV of DECnet. AT&T Unix was an OS that didn't support DECnet so there was no need to certify against it. DEC was a source licensee to AT&T -- so they could do contract development on System V as well as sell a BSD-Based Unix called Ultrix. As well as sell Ultrix-11, a modified AT&T 7th Edition Unix. DEC then went into RISC workstations and decided (after AT&T went into a deal with Sun to develop "ONE TRUE UNIX" ) to build a NON-AT&T Unix with IBM (who had AIX as it's BSD and SysV mix and) and HP (who had HP-UX). HP got involved with both the Sun and AT&T groups and finally ended up backing the AT&T horse with Sun. The IBM and DEC thing became OSF/1 which became the start of DEC Unix, later known as Tru64. I believe this is the Alpha SMP Unix you're thinking of. After Ultrix, DEC dabbled in work such as getting HSC-50's working with System V for AT&T Bell Labs (the work was done, IIRC, out of Nashua with some work from the Holmdel Field Office. Later an office was put in Manalpan, NJ to support the labs -- after most of the labs dropped Vax systems and the Field Service force was cut back locally). >DEC's problem by that time (now we're talking about mid 80s) was >the direct effect of telling its customers to go fuck themselves. Yup. The most of that was caused by the assinine idea to do just one architecture and go away from the Real-Time stuff on the 11 and not oem the VAX chips. >>But most college trained engineers had a couple of source tapes buried >>back in their houses for when they needed it. >>Colleges weren't known for data security then and AT&T really never went >>after them to keep it under lock and key. >In order for DEC to do any business with AT&T sources, they had >to do it officially. We could not have "hidden" tapes in the >back room and ship those bits. >/BAH Sure... but most of the college engineers who went into the Unix software business had a set of bootleg tapes and listings at home. These folks grew up to found much of the workstation business and this ended up undercutting DEC's VAX business as well as the PDP 11 Real Time stuff which went to things like RTU from Masscomp and other Unix derived os's. Hope this makes some sense... Gives me something to write while I'm installing VAX/VMS 7.2 and BSD Unix on the linux PC here. Bill -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:16:26 -0000 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1038060959 13003 80.177.7.220 (23 Nov 2002 14:15:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:15:59 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121668 wrote in message news:arl3p5$qjj$5@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > wrote in message news:arg1rg$3cv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > >[SNIP] > > > >> Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with > >> your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating > >> system was TOPS-20. > > > >[SNIP] > > > >Can you clear this one up for me Barb ? I thought TOPS-20 started > >out as a port of TENEX (written *OUTSIDE* DEC)... Is that true ? > > Yes. DEC never shipped or supported the code when it was known > as TENEX. You don't seem to understand the difference. I'm > not talking about software evolution; I'm talking about code > shipped. I'm also talking about the code that has to be > executed in order for a user to "see" one character that he typed. It sounds like you are implying that DEC re-wrote the majority of the TOPS-20 codebase after the port. Must have been a wild ride. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 23 Nov 2002 16:58:48 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121625 In article , Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > AT&T's true Unix believers went with System V -- which had it's roots > in System III from Western Electric, which had it's roots in the > 5th, 6th and 7th editions from Bell Labs. System III always looked to me more like they took V6 and reimplemented all the stuff that went into version 7... differently. Apart from the environment just about everything was subtly and inexplicably different in System III. > The IBM and DEC thing became OSF/1 which became the start of DEC Unix, > later known as Tru64. AFAICT the only thing that the shipping OSF/1 on the Alpha took from IBM was the license. DEC OSF/1 was pretty much a stright 4.3-Reno on Mach, with the good bits of System V userland ported on top of it. The non-AT&T BSD was Net-2 and 4.4-Lite, and that was after Reno shipped. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 23 Nov 2002 17:02:18 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3DDB5398.D8150791@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121646 In article , wrote: > I have no idea. I think that one of the problems with tracing > Unix history is the lack of source control. Once there was > a "spin-off", there was essentially a new OS that had _some_ > common programming philosophy. My position since the '80s has been that UNIX is a family of operating systems with a common design and core API. So that's not far off. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:24:33 -0000 Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: <3DDA2C13.90820075@ev1.net> <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1038072272 26007 80.177.7.220 (23 Nov 2002 17:24:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:24:32 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121673 wrote in message news:aro4ld$bu3$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > > wrote in message news:arl3p5$qjj$5@bob.news.rcn.net... > >> In article , > >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >> > wrote in message > >news:arg1rg$3cv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > >> >[SNIP] > >> > > >> >> Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with > >> >> your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating > >> >> system was TOPS-20. > >> > > >> >[SNIP] > >> > > >> >Can you clear this one up for me Barb ? I thought TOPS-20 started > >> >out as a port of TENEX (written *OUTSIDE* DEC)... Is that true ? > >> > >> Yes. DEC never shipped or supported the code when it was known > >> as TENEX. You don't seem to understand the difference. I'm > >> not talking about software evolution; I'm talking about code > >> shipped. I'm also talking about the code that has to be > >> executed in order for a user to "see" one character that he typed. > > > >It sounds like you are implying that DEC re-wrote the majority of the > >TOPS-20 codebase after the port. Must have been a wild ride. :) > > [emoticon losing patience] You have no idea what I'm talking > about. The code wasn't "ported". > > I suggest that you pick on my lack of hardware knowledge to > prove how stupid I am. Not at all. I was just baffled. The web page I read on the origins of TOPS-20 suggested that it was very much something written elsewhere but adopted by DEC. I *think* this is where I got that impression from - was a while ago : http://www.linique.com/dlm/tenex/hbook.html Specifically : "TOPS-20 was first announced as a DEC product and shipped in January, 1976. Development had started in 1973 based on TENEX[1], an operating system for the PDP-10 then in use at a number of research installations around the coun try." and "The outcome of this was that I went to work for DEC -- as a contractor. I contracted with DEC for a fixed-time (3 months), fixed-price contract to make TENEX run on the KI10[6]. Clearly, the DEC internal processes were not about to create a real project around TENEX at this point, but a one-man 3-month contract must have seemed an acceptably small risk." Certainly a lot of work went into that after the initial port. Like I said must have bee a wild ride, that paper is an interesting read. Cheers, Rupert ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) Cancel-Lock: sha1:gTMKZPQ8bIsicN4z+xWNXPXHlbg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:00:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.105.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1038081652 165.247.105.82 (Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:00:52 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:00:52 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121532 peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > AFAICT the only thing that the shipping OSF/1 on the Alpha took from IBM > was the license. DEC OSF/1 was pretty much a stright 4.3-Reno on Mach, with > the good bits of System V userland ported on top of it. The non-AT&T BSD > was Net-2 and 4.4-Lite, and that was after Reno shipped. but who funded the organization that did mach, andrew, camelot, etc. athena at mit was jointly funded by dec and ibm ... however cmu got all its money from one source. there was some story that they paid at least three different times for the same set of code that came from there (as part of the cmu & then transarc saga). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Originator: root@acer.reistad.priv.no (Charlie Root) Message-ID: Lines: 72 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:30:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: news01.chello.no 1038094201 212.186.246.195 (Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:30:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:30:01 MET Organization: chello broadband Norway X-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:30:01 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uio.no!news01.chello.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121657 According to Rupert Pigott : > wrote in message news:aro4ld$bu3$3@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article , >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> > wrote in message >news:arl3p5$qjj$5@bob.news.rcn.net... >> >> In article , >> >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> >> > wrote in message >> >news:arg1rg$3cv$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >> >> >[SNIP] >> >> > >> >> >> Most of the _code_ that was executed when you played with >> >> >> your HLL compilers was written by DEC if the operating >> >> >> system was TOPS-20. >> >> > >> >> >[SNIP] >> >> > >> >> >Can you clear this one up for me Barb ? I thought TOPS-20 started >> >> >out as a port of TENEX (written *OUTSIDE* DEC)... Is that true ? >> >> >> >> Yes. DEC never shipped or supported the code when it was known >> >> as TENEX. You don't seem to understand the difference. I'm >> >> not talking about software evolution; I'm talking about code >> >> shipped. I'm also talking about the code that has to be >> >> executed in order for a user to "see" one character that he typed. >> > >> >It sounds like you are implying that DEC re-wrote the majority of the >> >TOPS-20 codebase after the port. Must have been a wild ride. :) The broad lines of this "rewrite" has been known for a long time, with lots of references to old and new paging hardware, but I have never found a detailed technical description of exactly what later versions of TENEX looked like, and exactly how/where/why the "port" was done. >> [emoticon losing patience] You have no idea what I'm talking >> about. The code wasn't "ported". >> >> I suggest that you pick on my lack of hardware knowledge to >> prove how stupid I am. > >Not at all. I was just baffled. The web page I read on the origins of >TOPS-20 >suggested that it was very much something written elsewhere but adopted by >DEC. > >I *think* this is where I got that impression from - was a while ago : >http://www.linique.com/dlm/tenex/hbook.html This is getting quite close to such a description. Now, it may be appropriate to examile some code. Did TENEX source survive anywhere, and is pre version 2.0 TOPS20 still alive? >Specifically : >"TOPS-20 was first announced as a DEC product and shipped in January, 1976. >Development had started in 1973 based on TENEX[1], an operating system for >the PDP-10 then in use at a number of research installations around the coun >try." >"The outcome of this was that I went to work for DEC -- as a contractor. I >contracted with DEC for a fixed-time (3 months), fixed-price contract to >make TENEX run on the KI10[6]. Clearly, the DEC internal processes >were not about to create a real project around TENEX at this point, but a >one-man 3-month contract must have seemed an acceptably small risk." >Certainly a lot of work went into that after the initial port. Like I said >must >have bee a wild ride, that paper is an interesting read. Indeed. -- mrr ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 24 Nov 2002 13:50:36 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121640 In article , wrote: > I wouldn't go that far (calling it a common design). That's why > I said "philosophy". One of the reasons, there were splits was > because the designs were different, e.g., file system and network > service. The file system itself was not part of the design, the interface between applications and the file system was. Network services on UNIX have almost nothing to do with the UNIX design, though Berkeley sockets are less messed up than some. Still, they are not all that UNIXy and I wouldn't call any of them part of the system. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 24 Nov 2002 15:40:50 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.visi.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!news.fsf.net!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121635 In article , wrote: > In article , > peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: > >In article , wrote: > >> I wouldn't go that far (calling it a common design). That's why > >> I said "philosophy". One of the reasons, there were splits was > >> because the designs were different, e.g., file system and network > >> service. > >The file system itself was not part of the design, > I find that difficult to believe. > > ... the interface between > >applications and the file system was. > Of course. But there has to be a design that allows that > interface to call the file system code. Sure, but that interface doesn't change just because you change the file system underneath. The interface is what's UNIX. The stuff underneath is an implementation detail. > Perhaps we've a schism between our use of the phrases? You seem to be talking about low-level design. I'm talking about what the application sees. I don't care if "open" ends up passing a message to the file system via an Amiga message port, a VMS mailbox, the BSD vnode layer, or a telegram to a post office in Swaziland. If I get back a file descriptor that I can pass to write, mmap, fcntl, or other system call... then that OS is an implementation of the UNIX design. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:44:20 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Message-ID: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> References: X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Organization: EuroNet Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2002 20:10:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.234.208.102 X-Trace: DXC=ISL@]hD?:?[R>Gn[YFXQEPSKYkiiVZ:6_`e[J\6h?gaWBn?eXoXMn:R;5j_jKeV_RRd_W:iE^=Cl] X-Complaints-To: abuse@euronet.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.hostname.nl!newsfeed.online.be!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!maya.euronet.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121658 On Sun, 24 Nov 02 14:03:19 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> In article , JC> peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: JC> >The file system itself was not part of the design, JC> JC> I find that difficult to believe. It's true, that's why it's so easy to have several different types of file system in use at once. The place for the file system to sit in the path from metal to moron^Wuser is well defined but not the system itself. JC> > ... the interface between JC> >applications and the file system was. JC> JC> Of course. But there has to be a design that allows that JC> interface to call the file system code. Even very JC> rudimentary OSes have I/O handlers. The interface between the filesystem and the device drivers is also part of the design. The bit in the middle tends to vary. JC> Right. That's why they were a mess ;-^ [there's tongue in that thar JC> emoticon's cheek]. Hmm, are there many examples of elegant networking mechanisms, the only one that springs to mind is in Plan 9, and I've not abused it enough to see if it stays the course. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 12:33:41 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYc42vCZmMo07pOvx6LbjCFSuwvOJNXCQP1YjiI5pcLmChMdDYAMjUA X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2002 12:59:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-123 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121780 In article <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sun, 24 Nov 02 14:03:19 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >JC> In article , >JC> peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: > >JC> >The file system itself was not part of the design, >JC> >JC> I find that difficult to believe. > > It's true, that's why it's so easy to have several different types >of file system in use at once. The place for the file system to sit in >the path from metal to moron^Wuser is well defined but not the system >itself. I'm not talking about specs that say "Thou shalt have 30 block/cluster". I am talking about ...eh..I don't know how to write it in English ASCII. I learned this stuff listening over the wall while JMF and TW did their design BSing sessions. > >JC> > ... the interface between >JC> >applications and the file system was. >JC> >JC> Of course. But there has to be a design that allows that >JC> interface to call the file system code. Even very >JC> rudimentary OSes have I/O handlers. > > The interface between the filesystem and the device drivers is also >part of the design. The bit in the middle tends to vary. An OS has to have some kind of rule system about how a device driver gets integrated into resident memory. If a new file structure architecture is to be introduced, there has to be some method to meld it into core. Gadzooks! You can't run a file structure interface at the app level. Data integrity go out the window. There has to be a way of ensuring the data written to a logical structure is actually getting out there in hard bits. oooohhhh..why am I getting a bad feeling? > >JC> Right. That's why they were a mess ;-^ [there's tongue in that thar >JC> emoticon's cheek]. > > Hmm, are there many examples of elegant networking mechanisms, the >only one that springs to mind is in Plan 9, and I've not abused it enough >to see if it stays the course. I'm amazed that we have the elegance we have today. Developing network software, architecture and hardware has got to be trying to hit a target that's moving at the speed of light. Requirements never stand still for more than a week. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Mon, 25 Nov 02 14:28:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYy75h96Z9Lv9YUejN1nNQDXAaugtL3bE6rDtQ5/eNsH+YupBRvn0zC X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2002 14:54:53 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-47 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121790 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Mon, 25 Nov 02 12:33:41 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>In article <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net>, >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>>On Sun, 24 Nov 02 14:03:19 GMT >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>> >>>JC> In article , >>>JC> peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >>> >>>JC> >The file system itself was not part of the design, >>>JC> >>>JC> I find that difficult to believe. >>> >>> It's true, that's why it's so easy to have several different types >>>of file system in use at once. The place for the file system to sit in >>>the path from metal to moron^Wuser is well defined but not the system >>>itself. >> >>I'm not talking about specs that say "Thou shalt have 30 block/cluster". >>I am talking about ...eh..I don't know how to write it in English >>ASCII. I learned this stuff listening over the wall while JMF >>and TW did their design BSing sessions. >> >>>JC> > ... the interface between >>>JC> >applications and the file system was. >>>JC> >>>JC> Of course. But there has to be a design that allows that >>>JC> interface to call the file system code. Even very >>>JC> rudimentary OSes have I/O handlers. >>> >>> The interface between the filesystem and the device drivers is also >>>part of the design. The bit in the middle tends to vary. >> >>An OS has to have some kind of rule system about how a device >>driver gets integrated into resident memory. If a new file >>structure architecture is to be introduced, there has to be >>some method to meld it into core. Gadzooks! You can't run >>a file structure interface at the app level. Data integrity >>go out the window. There has to be a way of ensuring the >>data written to a logical structure is actually getting out there >>in hard bits. > >File systems sit between the system call API which dispatches >open, close, read, write, etc. system calls to a file system >module, based on the file system mount point, and the device >driver API which handles blocks on disk or packets on a network. Right. >File systems can be any of a variety of Unix fs, NT fs, OS/2 HP >fs, MS DOS fs, could even be VMS, ODS, or TOPS-10 on disk, NFS, >AFS, RFS, or other local or remote network file systems, and tmp >fs or proc fs residing entirely in memory, all part of the great >vfs that is a Unix system. A TOPS-10 file system residing on a disk where the writing is controlled by Unix is a logical file system, not a real file system. From the POV of the Unix, I assume that the space reserved for TOPS-10 is treated as a file _within the Unix file architecture_. It's how TOPS-10 treated the RSX-20F file system. That way the two file systems that were residing on the same disk, didn't get in each other's way. The bit management of each of these file systems were NOT at the app level. Sure TOPS-10 could be convinced to "read" the -20F file. I could even teach a usermode program the 20F architecture; but then I'd have a 20F emulator running in the -10's core. I'd almost have to circumvent the -10's architecture to write to it. It's possible but sorta dumb when you've got an OS running in the -11 who already knows how to do it all. I don't know what I'm talking about. My brain just pooped. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:49:49 -0000 Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1038232183 27817 80.177.7.220 (25 Nov 2002 13:49:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:49:43 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121824 wrote in message news:art6ro$68k$2@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > An OS has to have some kind of rule system about how a device > driver gets integrated into resident memory. If a new file > structure architecture is to be introduced, there has to be > some method to meld it into core. Gadzooks! You can't run > a file structure interface at the app level. Data integrity > go out the window. There has to be a way of ensuring the > data written to a logical structure is actually getting out there > in hard bits. > > oooohhhh..why am I getting a bad feeling? Because you're missing all the important bits of the puzzle. :) The Design & Implementation of the BSD 4.4 Operating System describes how all this stuff works for that particular flavour of UNIX and some of the history behind it. See chapter 6. I enjoy reading that book because they discuss the rationale behind the design of that particular UNIX. Cheers, Rupert ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090008 (Oort Gnus v0.08) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Cu0tjwlEkp/U2j8Da5JF1fNfPaI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:19:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.83.69 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1038233990 165.247.83.69 (Mon, 25 Nov 2002 06:19:50 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 06:19:50 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!uio.no!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121763 peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > AFAICT the only thing that the shipping OSF/1 on the Alpha took from IBM > was the license. DEC OSF/1 was pretty much a stright 4.3-Reno on Mach, with > the good bits of System V userland ported on top of it. The non-AT&T BSD > was Net-2 and 4.4-Lite, and that was after Reno shipped. the other thing that went on in the early OSF meetings was the distributed file system stuff ... meetings had people from UCLA Locus, CMU AFS, austin DFS, and some apollo (hp). AFS could do local (disk) caching of full objects. Locus could do partial object (disk) caching as well as process migration (including heterogeneous under specific conditions). There was also some of the MIT Kerberos stuff for distributed authenticated tokens. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:20:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1038234009 24.71.223.147 (Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:20:09 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:20:09 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!prodigy.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121863 On Mon, 25 Nov 02 12:33:41 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net>, > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>On Sun, 24 Nov 02 14:03:19 GMT >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>JC> In article , >>JC> peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >> >>JC> >The file system itself was not part of the design, >>JC> >>JC> I find that difficult to believe. >> >> It's true, that's why it's so easy to have several different types >>of file system in use at once. The place for the file system to sit in >>the path from metal to moron^Wuser is well defined but not the system >>itself. > >I'm not talking about specs that say "Thou shalt have 30 block/cluster". >I am talking about ...eh..I don't know how to write it in English >ASCII. I learned this stuff listening over the wall while JMF >and TW did their design BSing sessions. > >>JC> > ... the interface between >>JC> >applications and the file system was. >>JC> >>JC> Of course. But there has to be a design that allows that >>JC> interface to call the file system code. Even very >>JC> rudimentary OSes have I/O handlers. >> >> The interface between the filesystem and the device drivers is also >>part of the design. The bit in the middle tends to vary. > >An OS has to have some kind of rule system about how a device >driver gets integrated into resident memory. If a new file >structure architecture is to be introduced, there has to be >some method to meld it into core. Gadzooks! You can't run >a file structure interface at the app level. Data integrity >go out the window. There has to be a way of ensuring the >data written to a logical structure is actually getting out there >in hard bits. File systems sit between the system call API which dispatches open, close, read, write, etc. system calls to a file system module, based on the file system mount point, and the device driver API which handles blocks on disk or packets on a network. File systems can be any of a variety of Unix fs, NT fs, OS/2 HP fs, MS DOS fs, could even be VMS, ODS, or TOPS-10 on disk, NFS, AFS, RFS, or other local or remote network file systems, and tmp fs or proc fs residing entirely in memory, all part of the great vfs that is a Unix system. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 25 Nov 2002 16:11:20 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121803 In article , wrote: > I'm not talking about specs that say "Thou shalt have 30 block/cluster". > I am talking about ...eh..I don't know how to write it in English > ASCII. I learned this stuff listening over the wall while JMF > and TW did their design BSing sessions. I'm talking about "the file system will provide the functionality required for the following system calls: open, read, write...". > An OS has to have some kind of rule system about how a device > driver gets integrated into resident memory. that's a function of a particular implementation of the OS. Some had no mechanism for adding new file systems, others allow you to add a new file system with "kldload", some require it look like an NFS mount... The point is that from the application side you can't tell the difference. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 25 Nov 2002 16:15:46 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121810 In article , wrote: > >File systems can be any of a variety of Unix fs, NT fs, OS/2 HP > >fs, MS DOS fs, could even be VMS, ODS, or TOPS-10 on disk, NFS, > >AFS, RFS, or other local or remote network file systems, and tmp > >fs or proc fs residing entirely in memory, all part of the great > >vfs that is a Unix system. > A TOPS-10 file system residing on a disk where the writing is > controlled by Unix is a logical file system, not a real file > system. From the POV of the Unix, I assume that the space > reserved for TOPS-10 is treated as a file _within the Unix > file architecture_. I think he's talking about having UNIX applications opening TOPS-10 files. > It's how TOPS-10 treated the RSX-20F file system. That way > the two file systems that were residing on the same disk, > didn't get in each other's way. You're mixing up the OS and the file system. Sitting here at my FreeBSD console, I can access UNIX and DOS file systems on disk, in separate partitions, and the application can't tell the difference except that certain operations, like chown and chmod, don't work quite the same way on the MSDOS files. > The bit management of each > of these file systems were NOT at the app level. Of course not. Where did you get that idea? The application only knows about the read/write/etc system calls. The file system runs in the kernel. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 25 Nov 2002 16:17:53 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121812 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > the other thing that went on in the early OSF meetings was the > distributed file system stuff ... meetings had people from UCLA Locus, > CMU AFS, austin DFS, and some apollo (hp). AFS could do local (disk) > caching of full objects. Locus could do partial object (disk) caching > as well as process migration (including heterogeneous under specific > conditions). There was also some of the MIT Kerberos stuff for > distributed authenticated tokens. We never had any of that in what DEC shipped as OSF/1. The more I find out about what OSF intended, the more I think DEC simply ignored the OSF and just used the licenses. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: "Simon Bowring" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:13:07 +0000 (GMT) Organization: MPC Data Limited Lines: 8 Distribution: World Message-ID: References: <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> <20021121085016.484aef19.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: "Simon Bowring" NNTP-Posting-Host: bath.mpc-data.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1038248413 6026 158.152.55.245 (25 Nov 2002 18:20:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: PMINews 2.00.1205 For OS/2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!Norway.EU.net!uio.no!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!burton.mpc-data.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121756 On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:50:16 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > Then go look at Java (Beans, EJB, J2EE, servlets ...) and a >quick review of the backwards compatability. You will discover how >transparently simple and well designed C++ and NT seem by comparison. What absolute bollocks! ;-) ###### From: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 25 Nov 2002 12:59:57 -0500 Organization: Lakewood MicroSystems Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!shell.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121814 In article , Peter da Silva wrote: > >AFAICT the only thing that the shipping OSF/1 on the Alpha took from IBM >was the license. DEC OSF/1 was pretty much a stright 4.3-Reno on Mach, with >the good bits of System V userland ported on top of it. The non-AT&T BSD >was Net-2 and 4.4-Lite, and that was after Reno shipped. > >-- >I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs >of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All >these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' >Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` I thought the Logical Volume Manager (LVM) was the same on AIX and OSF/1... I'm not sure of this -- but from what I was told from someone who did some Alpha Unix while I was using AIX they sounded almost identical. I think there's a lot of interesting things historically in the Unix inbreeding that could be a great book... But I was a history major before my DEC Field Service days. Bill -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 25 Nov 2002 13:07:57 -0500 Organization: Lakewood MicroSystems Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!shell.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121809 In article , wrote: >In article , > pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) wrote: >>Hope this makes some sense... > >Well, between you and me and a bunch of others, we might be able >to describe how things work and how to turn them to shit without >even trying ;-). It appears that People Who Should Know Better >are describing those days with very, very selective memory. Well, I'm getting older and the people who passed stuff on to me were probably more than a bit selective with memory. That's why when DMR posts from Bell Labs it tends to explain a lot. Too bad all the folks who did the work on OS design and development haven't had their experienced recorded for posterity. I'd kill for a Ken Olsen autobiograpy. >>Gives me something to write while I'm installing VAX/VMS 7.2 and BSD >>Unix on the linux PC here. > > Who would have thought that this could ever happen. >People looked at me as if I were nuts when I insisted (in 1984) >that one computer system should be able to run any OS from the >point of view of the user. What people are doing today is way >beyond anything I would have dared to think of. I'm so proud >of them and awed. Yeah... well thanks to a couple of folks I'll be able to run VAX/VMS pretty slowly on an old Pentium 166 laptop under Win95. Perhaps I'll get TOPS10 and TOPS20 up as well. I found it (SIMH) usable on my K6-2/450 desktop and pretty fast on my PIII at work. Bill -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 25 Nov 2002 13:10:16 -0500 Organization: Lakewood MicroSystems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3DDB5398.D8150791@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.monmouth.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.monmouth.com!shell.monmouth.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121802 In article , wrote: >In article <3DDB5398.D8150791@ev1.net>, >I have no idea. I think that one of the problems with tracing >Unix history is the lack of source control. Once there was >a "spin-off", there was essentially a new OS that had _some_ >common programming philosophy. > >/BAH The trick is that most of Unix is basically a bunch of utilities strung together with the standard C library... and it's pretty different (and more portable) than stuff like RT11 or VAX/VMS or TOPS10/TOPS20. Those require real low-level features of the CPU hardware. Bill -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:20:14 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Message-ID: <20021125192014.180cceb8.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2002 19:14:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1245.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=JJX>3>XV7cg<1SWXc4Tkek1`\LnN2UYYa^R7?8fFREbdhC_lbVB6eNk^@9BFUbU@Qk:Jg]eMV@aYa X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121821 On Mon, 25 Nov 02 14:28:57 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> A TOPS-10 file system residing on a disk where the writing is JC> controlled by Unix is a logical file system, not a real file JC> system. You *could* do that, you could also arrange support for the TOPS-10 filesystem under the Unix API. It would use the block level device API to read and write the disk and present the Unix VFS API to the applications and ensure that that which is written to the disk conforms to TOPS-10 specifications. There may be information in there that Unix cannot use, and perhaps even only supply default values for in creation (I don't know the details of the TOPS-10 filesystem). There may be things that the Unix API expects that the TOPS-10 filesystem can only provide defaults - like DOS filesystems and permissions modes. Oh yes, you can usually also use a file as a block device and put any supported filesystem in it - or even swap space. Nesting is also possible like this (although there aren't many real uses for this stunt). -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:09:10 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> <20021125192014.180cceb8.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-SN (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121826 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > Oh yes, you can usually also use a file as a block device and put > any supported filesystem in it - or even swap space. Nesting is also > possible like this (although there aren't many real uses for this stunt). > Mounting a dump of an ISO9660 CD-rom as a filesystem? Debugging a new filesystem while you're developing it? Emulation? (I've got some nice big TOPS-10 filesystems for klh10 in big Unix files ;)) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Tue, 26 Nov 02 11:26:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYztuayoXdfKsk0VsrkNAXPDWfmcd9ClQaZIcZnmz9aBIAMKsU9MCVh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2002 11:52:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!199.184.165.233!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-40 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121939 In article , peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article , wrote: >> >File systems can be any of a variety of Unix fs, NT fs, OS/2 HP >> >fs, MS DOS fs, could even be VMS, ODS, or TOPS-10 on disk, NFS, >> >AFS, RFS, or other local or remote network file systems, and tmp >> >fs or proc fs residing entirely in memory, all part of the great >> >vfs that is a Unix system. > >> A TOPS-10 file system residing on a disk where the writing is >> controlled by Unix is a logical file system, not a real file >> system. From the POV of the Unix, I assume that the space >> reserved for TOPS-10 is treated as a file _within the Unix >> file architecture_. > >I think he's talking about having UNIX applications opening TOPS-10 >files. > >> It's how TOPS-10 treated the RSX-20F file system. That way >> the two file systems that were residing on the same disk, >> didn't get in each other's way. > >You're mixing up the OS and the file system. > >Sitting here at my FreeBSD console, I can access UNIX and DOS file systems >on disk, in separate partitions, and the application can't tell the difference >except that certain operations, like chown and chmod, don't work quite the >same way on the MSDOS files. > >> The bit management of each >> of these file systems were NOT at the app level. > >Of course not. Where did you get that idea? The application only knows about >the read/write/etc system calls. The file system runs in the kernel. I thought that's what I've been saying all along :-). There are days when I hate this mudium. A face-to-face wouldn't have taken days to straighten out the thread. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:56:23 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Message-ID: <20021125205623.24d74f89.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> <20021121085016.484aef19.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2002 02:00:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i2204.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=AR:Ug`0601m< wrote: SB> On Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:50:16 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: SB> SB> > Then go look at Java (Beans, EJB, J2EE, servlets ...) and a SB> >quick review of the backwards compatability. You will discover how SB> >transparently simple and well designed C++ and NT seem by comparison. SB> What absolute bollocks! ;-) OK, so it's all crap, but the Java crap smells worse. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:07:12 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Message-ID: <20021126070712.59e38dba.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> <20021125192014.180cceb8.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2002 06:11:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p3150.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=M^fm9C\NQNENFkhS wrote: PF> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: PF> > Oh yes, you can usually also use a file as a block device and PF> > put PF> > any supported filesystem in it - or even swap space. Nesting is also PF> > possible like this (although there aren't many real uses for this PF> > stunt). PF> > PF> PF> Mounting a dump of an ISO9660 CD-rom as a filesystem? Debugging a PF> new filesystem while you're developing it? Emulation? (I've got PF> some nice big TOPS-10 filesystems for klh10 in big Unix files ;)) Yes, all fine. I was thinking about nesting like say a file in an FFS filesystem containing a FAT32 fileystem with a file in it containing a TOPS-10 filesystem with a file in it containing a Reiser FS with a file in it mounted as swap. I can't think of a good reason to build such a pile, but it is nice to know that it is possible to mount them all. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Joel Gallun Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 26 Nov 2002 09:54:47 -0500 Organization: AOL Time Warner Lines: 15 Sender: snake@bimmer.office.aol.com Message-ID: References: Reply-To: nobody@home.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bimmer.office.aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: inntp-m1.news.aol.com 1038322493 28629 10.0.31.93 (26 Nov 2002 14:54:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@aol.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:54:53 +0000 (UTC) Posting-Host: tarpit.office.aol.com User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!nntp-internal.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122003 > > AFAICT the only thing that the shipping OSF/1 on the Alpha took > > from IBM was the license. no, OSF/1 had an early version of the IBM LVM in it. Was still included and supported (though deprecated) thru version 4.0F. No idea if its in version 5 or not. It was replaced by a port of the vertias VM by version 3.2F (when I started on OSF/1, er DEC unix, umm tru64, er whatever). Lots of the .h files in the current release of OSF/1 (tru64) still have "Copyright mumbledate IBM" in them. Joel ex DECie ###### From: "Simon Bowring" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:50:16 +0000 (GMT) Organization: MPC Data Limited Lines: 10 Distribution: World Message-ID: References: <3DDB52A9.3DB48274@ev1.net> <20021121085016.484aef19.steveo@eircom.net> <20021125205623.24d74f89.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: "Simon Bowring" NNTP-Posting-Host: bath.mpc-data.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1038331207 26538 158.152.55.245 (26 Nov 2002 17:20:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: PMINews 2.00.1205 For OS/2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!burton.mpc-data.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121908 On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:56:23 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > OK, so it's all crap, but the Java crap smells worse. I'm tempted to reproduce my devestatingly persuasive, technical and intellectual argument again, suffice to say "I am right and you are wrong, I'm going to sing the I-was-right song" ;-) Simon ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:16:21 -0000 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20021124164420.511de53e.steveo@eircom.net> <1bsmxps3wy.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1038329115 23040 80.177.7.220 (26 Nov 2002 16:45:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:45:15 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121985 "Joe Pfeiffer" wrote in message news:1bsmxps3wy.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu... > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: [SNIP] > With Linux (and I get the impression other Unices that do this) there > is a Virtual File System layer that implements the Linux file system > API; there are also modules that implement the actual file systems. I get the feeling that Sun were the first bods to implement the VFS layer... Good on 'em. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 26 Nov 2002 19:44:40 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121960 In article , Dennis Ritchie wrote: > "Peter da Silva" wrote, a couple of days ago... > > > Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > AT&T's true Unix believers went with System V -- which had it's roots > > > in System III from Western Electric, which had it's roots in the > > > 5th, 6th and 7th editions from Bell Labs. > > System III always looked to me more like they took V6 and reimplemented > > all the stuff that went into version 7... differently. Apart from the > > environment just about everything was subtly and inexplicably different > > in System III. > This is more or less correct, but there was much more interchange between > the internal support group (named USG then) on S III and S V and the > research group (V7 and successors) than usually suspected. Good to hear that was confirmed. Before System III came out, everyone around Berkeley were talking about the new release of PWB on a Version 7 base, and I was really surprised when I got my hands on my first System III box and it was so different from Version 7. > usually starting with (or at least including parts of) the Berkeley BSD > systems. > Before the last efforts of Berkeley's CSRG (like Net-2 and 4.4-lite) the > only > independent, stand-alone implementation of the Unix interface to achieve > much > currency was Coherent. Oh, let me rip my tongue out before I stand accused of seeming to contradict Dennis! I didn't mean to imply OSF wasn't based on AT&T code... of course it was: 4.3-Reno hadn't been though the great culling that produced Net/2 and 4.4-Lite. I do think you're giving too little credit to Idris and Regulus and OS/9 and QNX... though I could be mistaken about the release of the POSIX QNX, I thought it beat 386BSD386 and Linux. Certainly Regulus and Idris had faded from the stage by the '90s, but they had both been powers in their time. I ran into quite a few companies using Regulus... and of course OS/9 was the only way for the average person to get a taste of UNIX in the early '80s on the Radio Shack Color Computer. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 26 Nov 2002 19:53:30 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hostname.nl!newsfeed.news2me.com!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!news.fsf.net!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121968 In article , Joel Gallun wrote: > > > AFAICT the only thing that the shipping OSF/1 on the Alpha took > > > from IBM was the license. > no, OSF/1 had an early version of the IBM LVM in it. Was still > included and supported (though deprecated) thru version 4.0F. No idea > if its in version 5 or not. It was replaced by a port of the vertias > VM by version 3.2F (when I started on OSF/1, er DEC unix, umm tru64, > er whatever). Interesting. Our Digi^WComp^WHP guys have always insisted it's home-grown. They may have been assuming that AdvFS and LVM are part of the same thing. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 27 Nov 2002 14:02:36 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122131 In article , Dennis Ritchie wrote: > I know little enough about Regulus and OS/9 to say one way or another, > but Idris was deliberately not quite the same (though "culturally > compatible"). I never actually used it, but I saw the Whitesmiths sticker in a few offices. I'm surprised Bill hasn't thought of that... providing a separate sticker of authenticity with retail copies of Windows that must be affixed to the computer running it. > Another in a similar category was Tanenbaum's Minix. Minix seemed pretty UNIXy in userland, though of course it was quite different under the hood. But it was an educational system, like XINU. > There were also, of course, various shims (e.g. Eunice) and > also the whole Software Tools mini-empire that made the Unix > approach available in other environments. Oh yes, I have to thank all y'all for that... I ended up typing in the whole thing to make RSX bearable. Once I'd done that I decided I kind of liked a lot of the underlying OS. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 27 Nov 02 18:01:40 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-839.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!129.250.175.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122252 In article peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: >I'm surprised Bill hasn't thought of that... providing a separate >sticker of authenticity with retail copies of Windows that must be >affixed to the computer running it. I guess that "Designed for Windows xx" sticker that's beside the "Intel Inside" sticker on many laptops isn't quite the same, is it? There's no hologram or anything. Peeling off that sticker was the final step in the exorcism I performed on my laptop. The first steps, of course, were to boot from the Slackware CD and do an fdisk and format. It's a great little Linux box now. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:10:38 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-SN (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newshub1.home.nl!home.nl!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122285 Peter da Silva wrote: >> Another in a similar category was Tanenbaum's Minix. > > Minix seemed pretty UNIXy in userland, It was a bit of a generational step back for me. My formative Unix experiences in the mid 80s were on Suns under SunOS3 and Vaxes running something that had a locally-hacked kernel with a fair bit of 4.xBSD, a lot of Eighth Edition ideas and some SysVisms, so going back to something that was to all intents and purposes rather like a PDP-11 with separate I&D was interesting ;) > though of course it was quite > different under the hood. But it was an educational system, like XINU. And wasn't meant to teach Unix - the pedagogical ideas behind it were user-level servers and a microkernel... I suspect far more people used Minix to have a Unix-y environment on a small computer than used it to study Tanenbaum's approach to OS design. I looked fairly closely at the kernel code, but wasn't overly impressed.... >> There were also, of course, various shims (e.g. Eunice) and "Congratulations. You aren't running Eunice." Did anyone, ever? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 27 Nov 2002 22:43:20 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122259 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > It was a bit of a generational step back for me. My formative Unix > experiences in the mid 80s were on Suns under SunOS3 and Vaxes > running something that had a locally-hacked kernel with a fair bit > of 4.xBSD, a lot of Eighth Edition ideas and some SysVisms, so going > back to something that was to all intents and purposes rather like > a PDP-11 with separate I&D was interesting ;) There's nothing like a PDP-11 UNIX. One program I wrote used to start out by writing the environment to a file so it could use the extra 1k of storage for something else, and only-rereading it between a fork and exec. I was almost ready to turf all that code and use a helper app to run programs (run it first to save the environment, then later to load and run a program) because I was running out of instruction space as well. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 28 Nov 2002 03:06:15 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122235 In article <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > I guess that "Designed for Windows xx" sticker that's beside the > "Intel Inside" sticker on many laptops isn't quite the same, is it? Turn the laptop over. Look at the shiny hologram sticker. THAT is the license. I'm talking about them including that sticker in the retail boxes and requiring you to affix it to the computer you're licensing Windows for, instead of affixing it to the cover of the manual. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### Message-ID: <3DE59199.4080705@beagle-ears.com> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:46:33 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 1038455178 45481 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122207 Pete Fenelon wrote: > "Congratulations. You aren't running Eunice." > Did anyone, ever? I did, for a while in he early 80-es, in order to get a bunch of programming utilities into my VMS based daily work environment, so I would not have to go back and forth between terminals off two different datacenters. -- / Lars Poulsen +1-805-569-5277 http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/ 125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA lars@beagle-ears.com ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 28 Nov 2002 00:10:01 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <1bhee2b25y.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1038467401 24356 128.123.64.113 (28 Nov 2002 07:10:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 2002 07:10:01 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.state.mn.us!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122198 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > > Peeling off that sticker was the final step in the exorcism I > performed on my laptop. The first steps, of course, were to > boot from the Slackware CD and do an fdisk and format. It's > a great little Linux box now. I really enjoyed laughing evilly at that sticker every time I booted my laptop... but now I've had to put W2K on it for some work I'm doing, so I feel like it's smirking at me... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:07:58 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3DE59199.4080705@beagle-ears.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-SN (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122292 Lars Poulsen wrote: > Pete Fenelon wrote: >> "Congratulations. You aren't running Eunice." >> Did anyone, ever? > > I did, for a while in he early 80-es, in order to get a bunch of > programming utilities into my VMS based daily work environment, > so I would not have to go back and forth between terminals off > two different datacenters. "Congratulations." -- I've seen it in that many Larry Wall config scripts and almost wondered if it was an in-joke ;) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 28 Nov 2002 13:51:45 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> <1bhee2b25y.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122244 In article <1bhee2b25y.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > I really enjoyed laughing evilly at that sticker every time I booted > my laptop... but now I've had to put W2K on it for some work I'm > doing, so I feel like it's smirking at me... BTW, that sticker is now adorning a more appropriate piece of hardware. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Message-ID: References: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:47:39 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.99 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1038504215 205.206.39.99 (Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:23:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:23:35 EST Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122231 In article , peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> I guess that "Designed for Windows xx" sticker that's beside the >> "Intel Inside" sticker on many laptops isn't quite the same, is it? >Turn the laptop over. Look at the shiny hologram sticker. THAT is the >license. >I'm talking about them including that sticker in the retail boxes and >requiring you to affix it to the computer you're licensing Windows for, >instead of affixing it to the cover of the manual. OEM versions sold to computer stores want the label stuck to the machine. I suppose when they check licences on a dual-boot system they don't want to be told that the sticker they're looking for is under the sticker they're looking at. Regards. Mel. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:05:22 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> <1bhee2b25y.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.7-SN (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122281 Peter da Silva wrote: > In article <1bhee2b25y.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >> I really enjoyed laughing evilly at that sticker every time I booted >> my laptop... but now I've had to put W2K on it for some work I'm >> doing, so I feel like it's smirking at me... > > BTW, that sticker is now adorning a more appropriate piece of hardware. How close to the flush handle is it? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 28 Nov 2002 23:18:26 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <1bhee2b25y.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122402 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > Peter da Silva wrote: > > In article <1bhee2b25y.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > >> I really enjoyed laughing evilly at that sticker every time I booted > >> my laptop... but now I've had to put W2K on it for some work I'm > >> doing, so I feel like it's smirking at me... > > BTW, that sticker is now adorning a more appropriate piece of hardware. > How close to the flush handle is it? If it was near the handle you wouldn't easily see it from the doorway, so I put it on the other side. -- I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' Time for your nap. | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U` ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:35:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1038537318 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:35:18 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:35:18 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122449 On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:30:12 +0000, Steve Burton wrote: >On 28 Nov 2002 03:06:15 GMT, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: > >>In article <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >>Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>> I guess that "Designed for Windows xx" sticker that's beside the >>> "Intel Inside" sticker on many laptops isn't quite the same, is it? >> >>Turn the laptop over. Look at the shiny hologram sticker. THAT is the >>license. >> >>I'm talking about them including that sticker in the retail boxes and >>requiring you to affix it to the computer you're licensing Windows for, >>instead of affixing it to the cover of the manual. > >The Windows 2000 PCs we buy at work have a holo-sticker on the side >with the license on. Apparently, its a condition of the manufacturers >OEM 'license' from MSoft. What do they do if you buy a motherboard, etc. with Windows? Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Message-ID: <3DE707B7.3030606@beagle-ears.com> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:22:47 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote References: <3DE59199.4080705@beagle-ears.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 1038550953 45480 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.hostname.nl!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122387 Lars Poulsen wrote: >> I did, for a while in he early 80-es [run Eunice], in order to get >> a bunch of programming utilities into my VMS based daily work >> environment, so I would not have to go back and forth between >> terminals off two different datacenters. Around 1980, SRI had a pair of gifted system programmers, Ken Adelman and David Kashtan, who wrote a set of kernel-mode utilities that would emulate a Unix environment under VMS, sort of like the TOPS-10 emulator under TOPS-20. This was not easy, because VMS processes are much heavier than Unix processes, and cloning generally does not work easily. They came up with a couple of handy shortcuts: 1) VFORK: On a fork, do NOT clone the process; wait and see if there is an EXEC following, and if so, start a new process for the new program, and then continue on with te old one. 2) On EXIT, don't kill the process, but save it and use it on the next FORK. 3) Build a whole new I/O sub-system so that open files will do the right things when you fork. It was licensed on reasonable terms, and worked reasonably well, but not perfectly. Thus, it provided a couple of challenges to autoconfigure. Shortly after that, they went on to port the BSD TCP/IP code into VMS. A company called the Wollongong group licensed this and commercialized it. Later Kashtan and Adelman left SRI and did a better job of commercializing it under the name MultiNet. Someone will correct my mistakes in the above summary, I'm sure. -- / Lars Poulsen +1-805-569-5277 http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/ 125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA lars@beagle-ears.com ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:19:51 -0800 Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3DE71517.813E12CD@computer.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: w034.z065106070.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net (65.106.70.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1038554384 25790100 65.106.70.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.teledanmark.no!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!w034.z065106070.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122381 Peter da Silva wrote: > > I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs > of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate. All > these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-' I'm getting really tired of this...... Sam ###### From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 29 Nov 2002 20:25:02 GMT Organization: ABB Network Management Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3DE71517.813E12CD@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: grendel.eng.baileynm.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.linkpendium.com!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-proxy.abbnm.com!web.eng.baileynm.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122415 In article <3DE71517.813E12CD@computer.org>, Sam Yorko wrote: > I'm getting really tired of this...... Tough. -- "I'm getting really tired of this" -- Sam Yorko `-_-' 'U` Disclaimer: Matthew 10:16 Har du kramat din varg idag? ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: 30 Nov 02 09:07:07 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <892.99T393T5473702@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-679.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122554 In article anksil@telia.com (Niklas Karlsson) writes: >In article <885.96T2044T10815325@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs >wrote: > >> I guess that "Designed for Windows xx" sticker that's beside the >> "Intel Inside" sticker on many laptops isn't quite the same, is it? >> There's no hologram or anything. >> >> Peeling off that sticker was the final step in the exorcism I >> performed on my laptop. > >I put that sticker where it belongs: on my dustbin (wastebasket). Damn, I should have thought of that. I put it _in_ my dustbin - and it disappeared the next time the garbage collector was invoked. -- /~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) \ / I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. / \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign! ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: I found the Olsen Quote Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:25:05 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1038594846snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3DE707B7.3030606@beagle-ears.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1038756305 1789 10.0.0.1 (1 Dec 2002 15:25:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:25:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 18IVxw-0000Si-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Sun, 01 Dec 2002 15:25:05 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.sovam.com!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:122627 In article <3DE707B7.3030606@beagle-ears.com> lars@beagle-ears.com "Lars Poulsen" writes: > Shortly after that, they went on to port the BSD TCP/IP code > into VMS. A company called the Wollongong group licensed this > and commercialized it. Later Kashtan and Adelman left SRI and > did a better job of commercializing it under the name MultiNet. I take it, then, that Kashtan and Adelman were *the* "Two Guys with a VAX" who founded TGV, which sold MultiNet. MultiNet was indeed an excellent TCP/IP implementation for VAX/VMS; subjectively, I'd say it was three orders of magnitude better than DEC's own [belated] offering. For "free" [ish] to educational establishments, the CMU stack was "alright", but for any serious Internet connection MultiNet was the best way to go. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919