eFrom: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 9 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:51:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1035463894 206.146.76.206 (Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:51:34 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:51:34 CDT Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119874 On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 02:15:02 -0400, Hugo Drax wrote: >anyone run hercules. its pretty cool you can run a mainframe at home with >VTAM/TSO/Compilers etc... Amazing product another great opensource product >http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/turnkey/herc_mvs.html The current Hercules home page is at http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules . YOu can also get a lot of software for it, freely available, at the CBT Tape site, http://www.cbttape.org . ###### From: mvs_hater@hotmail.com (mvs_hater@hotmail.com) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 24 Oct 2002 09:47:21 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.248.0.41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1035478041 7843 127.0.0.1 (24 Oct 2002 16:47:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Oct 2002 16:47:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119936 "Hugo Drax" wrote in message news:... > anyone run hercules. its pretty cool you can run a mainframe at home with > VTAM/TSO/Compilers etc... Amazing product another great opensource product > > http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/turnkey/herc_mvs.html Yeah I run Hercules but I run VM370, I will not run MVS on it because MVS is garbage. MVS is what ruined mainframes because everyone came to associate mainframes with that skank OS. If you are into retrocomputing, at least run a decent OS like VM or Unix, which are almost as old. OS/360 and JCL were no f***ing good back in 1965 and have not improved with age lemme tell you. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:34:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.146.76.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onvoy.com X-Trace: news7.onvoy.net 1035488069 206.146.76.206 (Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:34:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:34:29 CDT Organization: Onvoy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news7.onvoy.net.POSTED!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119878 On 24 Oct 2002 09:47:21 -0700, mvs_hater@hotmail.com wrote: >Yeah I run Hercules but I run VM370, I will not run MVS on it because >MVS is garbage. MVS is what ruined mainframes because everyone came to >associate mainframes with that skank OS. If you are into >retrocomputing, at least run a decent OS like VM or Unix, which are >almost as old. OS/360 and JCL were no f***ing good back in 1965 and >have not improved with age lemme tell you. I bet you're the same bozo who posted a similar message on the hercules-390 list. VM and MVS are both good OSes, but for different things. VM is better for interactive computing. MVS is better for day-in, day-out workhorse DP where the same tasks need to be done over and over - a perfect description of batch processing. VM sucks at batch, as does Unix. The facilities MVS provides are much more manageable, and much more robust. The tradeoff is that it's less friendly to interactive use, and harder to develop for. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 40 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:74isG9SZIdNPy4Z/nTJf0fOKniU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:14:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.8.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1035490456 209.245.8.80 (Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:14:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:14:16 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!news.it.colt.net!itgate.net!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119900 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > VM and MVS are both good OSes, but for different things. VM is better for > interactive computing. MVS is better for day-in, day-out workhorse DP where > the same tasks need to be done over and over - a perfect description of > batch processing. VM sucks at batch, as does Unix. The facilities MVS > provides are much more manageable, and much more robust. The tradeoff is > that it's less friendly to interactive use, and harder to develop for. not just batch but MVS is reasonable platform for almost any kind of service offering. It provides a lot of robust infrastructure functions to automate almost anything that might need to be done in a data processing system. Many of these automated functions are hidden behind arcane JCL ... making it a horrible delivery vehicle for personal computing. However, if you have requirement for nearly any sort of automated delivery service that needs to run repeatedly day-in, day-out ... with little or no hands on required ... things like payroll, check clearing, financial transactions, etc. it is very dependable work horse. In that sense it is more like some of the big 18 wheelers on the highway ... people looking for something simple like a small two-seater sports car are going to find a big 18 wheeler with a couple trailers somewhat unsuited. One of the intersection points in the current environment ... is that a large number of web services have requirements for 7x24, reliable, totally automated operation (even dark room). Lots of users around the world don't care why either the ATM machine is down or their favorite web server is down ... they just want it up and running all the time. a couple years ago ...one of the large financial services claimed a major reason for 100 percent uptime for the previous six years was automated operations in MVS ... aka people effectively were almost never allowed to touch the machine ... because people make mistakes. Hardware had gotten super reliable ... software was getting super reliable ... but people weren't getting a whole lot better. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 09 Nov 2002 20:18:01 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 9 Nov 2002 20:44:39 -0800, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120578 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: > VM and MVS are both good OSes, but for different things. VM is better for > interactive computing. MVS is better for day-in, day-out workhorse DP where > the same tasks need to be done over and over - a perfect description of > batch processing. VM sucks at batch, as does Unix. I'm confused. Isn't VM just a hypervisor? So shouldn't you be able to run whatever batch system you like on it, be it MVS or something else? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 74 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:T6h71qhORid7riRj6LTu2Vxrz5U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:06:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.19.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1036904782 65.59.19.116 (Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:06:22 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:06:22 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!207.217.77.102!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120562 Eric Smith writes: > I'm confused. Isn't VM just a hypervisor? So shouldn't you be able to > run whatever batch system you like on it, be it MVS or something else? the group in cambridge did an operating system with a unique characteristic ... it had a strongly enforced API boundary between the kernel supervisor and the user interface. The kernel was called CP/67 and the user interface was called the cambridge monitor system (since renamed the conversational monitor system with the transition of cp/67 to vm/370). The CP/67 api was the hardware machine interface as defined in the 360 principle of operations ... which not only allowed CMS to operate in a "virtual" machine ... but also relatively standard operating systems ... like mvt, dos, cp itself, etc. As an undergraduate, i put a lot of inventions into cp/67 that made the cp/cms combination significantly better for interactive services compared to operating sysetms of more traditional bent (highly optimized kernel path lengths, fastpath, optimized page replacement algorithm, fair share scheduling, dynamic adaptive resource management, etc). In the late cp/67 era, there were special APIs developed especially for CMS that allowed it to take advantage of functions of the CP kernel ... when it was running in virtual machine, although CMS still retained the capability to operate in using the vanilla 360 "POP" interface (and therefor could run on "real" hardware w/o cp/67). In the transition of CP/67 to VM/370 and cambridge monitor system to the conversational monitor system, the ability for CMS to operate w/o the custom APIs was removed, resulting in CMS no longer having the ability to run on a "real" machine. VM/370 had the ability to operate as a straight hypervisor ... running traditional batch operating systems ... but the CP/CMS combination also provided significantly enhanced interactive services ... as the CERN TSO(&VMS)/CMS(&VM/370) share report indicated. It also could be seen from the fact that there were a number of commercial interactive time-sharing service bureaus built using the CP/CMS platform. related refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech probably the largest such cp/cms interactive time-sharing operation was the corporate internal HONE system which supported all the marketing, sales, and field people in the world. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone misc, somewhat related recent postings: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#27 why does wait state exist? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#28 why does wait state exist? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#29 why does wait state exist? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#32 why does wait state exist? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#35 VR vs. Portable Computing http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#37 VR vs. Portable Computing http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#39 CMS update http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#48 Tweaking old computers? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#53 SHARE MVT Project anniversary http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#54 SHARE MVT Project anniversary http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#57 SHARE MVT Project anniversary http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#58 IBM S/370-168, 195, and 3033 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#62 PLX http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#63 Help me find pics of a UNIVAC please http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#64 PLX http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#66 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#67 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#71 bps loader, was PLX http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#72 bps loader, was PLX -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 09 Nov 2002 23:58:11 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 32 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 10 Nov 2002 00:24:51 -0800, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120579 jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) wrote: > VM and MVS are both good OSes, but for different things. VM is better for > interactive computing. MVS is better for day-in, day-out workhorse DP where > the same tasks need to be done over and over - a perfect description of > batch processing. VM sucks at batch, as does Unix. I wrote: > I'm confused. Isn't VM just a hypervisor? So shouldn't you be able to > run whatever batch system you like on it, be it MVS or something else? Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > the group in cambridge did an operating system with a unique > characteristic ... it had a strongly enforced API boundary between the > kernel supervisor and the user interface. The kernel was called CP/67 > and the user interface was called the cambridge monitor system (since > renamed the conversational monitor system with the transition of cp/67 > to vm/370). > > The CP/67 api was the hardware machine interface as defined in the 360 > principle of operations ... which not only allowed CMS to operate in a > "virtual" machine ... but also relatively standard operating systems > ... like mvt, dos, cp itself, etc. [...] > VM/370 had the ability to operate as a straight hypervisor ... running > traditional batch operating systems ... but the CP/CMS combination > also provided significantly enhanced interactive services ... as the > CERN TSO(&VMS)/CMS(&VM/370) share report indicated. It also could be > seen from the fact that there were a number of commercial interactive > time-sharing service bureaus built using the CP/CMS platform. So did Jay mean that CP/CMS sucks at batch? Surely VM can support batch just fine under some other supervisor? ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 10 Nov 2002 12:43:18 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1036932198 2210 134.117.136.30 (10 Nov 2002 12:43:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2002 12:43:18 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!prodigy.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120569 Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) writes: > > So did Jay mean that CP/CMS sucks at batch? Not really. Used batch CMS briefly about 1990 and it worked well. > Surely VM can support > batch just fine under some other supervisor? At that shop (Alphatext), OS/VS1 was the "guest" operating system. It's MFT on steroids. There was an initiative to move to MVS in guest mode, but the division was killed before that happened. It would have been interesting to compare CMS and TSO on the 4381, but not everyone is as blessed as, say, the Wheelers, in career opportunities. --> B-) <-- ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:d68I4N49PfAHXW63lOzu3+WEpns= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:31:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.23.153 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1036945913 65.59.23.153 (Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:31:53 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:31:53 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!207.217.77.102!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120547 Eric Smith writes: > So did Jay mean that CP/CMS sucks at batch? Surely VM can support > batch just fine under some other supervisor? cms has a cmsbatch ... that isn't even up to the level of os/360 PCP. cmsbatch is sort of like automated terminal session. but of course you can run some other (much more batch oriented) operating system in a virtual machine ... and do you batch work there. In fact, LPARS are a form of VM subset running in the microcode & hardware (on the bare metal) ... and I would guess that nearly all of the ibm mainframes these days run in LPAR mode. In that sense nearly all ibm maainframe workload running in the world today is running in a form of VM ... one way or another (including batch, oltp, dbms, etc) -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:loUaY7lVbWmCaZcBufhpgUMrG7Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:40:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.23.153 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1036946446 65.59.23.153 (Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:40:46 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:40:46 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!207.217.77.102!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120565 ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > At that shop (Alphatext), OS/VS1 was the "guest" operating system. > It's MFT on steroids. There was an initiative to move to MVS in > guest mode, but the division was killed before that happened. > It would have been interesting to compare CMS and TSO on the 4381, > but not everyone is as blessed as, say, the Wheelers, in career > opportunities. --> B-) <-- most guest operating systems run slower in a VM virtual machine that they would on the bare metal (because of the need for VM to simulate lots of the supervisor state instructions and various other characteristics). However, starting on 148 with VS/1 & VM microcode assists and various tweaking of VS/1 operations ... there were lots of customers that were able to show VS/1 running faster under VM than on the native hardware. lets say i fell into the career opportunities ... by spending a lot of late nights at the university computing center ... until they give me the whole machine room from 8am sat. until 8am monday ... and the responsibility for supporting the production operating systems. After that I usually tried to schedule things so my first class on monday wasn't until 10am ... it would give me a chance to shower. Pulling a 48hr shift w/o sleep and then doing monday classes sometimes was interesting activity. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:fDeBC4cu/nwjUd7lCLkGGR+0pb0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:51:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.23.153 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1036947096 65.59.23.153 (Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:51:36 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 08:51:36 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120563 and although i didn't get as much sleep pulling 48hr shifts (and then going to class) it was more interesting than the job i had up until then washing dishes in university cafeteria (and i was getting paid for spending time at the computing center) -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 10 Nov 2002 20:36:42 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1036960602 6849 134.117.136.30 (10 Nov 2002 20:36:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Nov 2002 20:36:42 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120573 Anne & Lynn Wheeler (lynn@garlic.com) writes: ... > After > that I usually tried to schedule things so my first class on monday > wasn't until 10am ... it would give me a chance to shower. Pulling a > 48hr shift w/o sleep and then doing monday classes sometimes was > interesting activity. The profs or T.A.s were probably well and truly hungover too, right? ###### Message-ID: <3DCFBFCE.F41A8899@yahoo.com> From: Peter Flass X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:33:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.194.50.82 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.nyroc.rr.com 1037025237 24.194.50.82 (Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:33:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:33:57 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!cyclone-out.nyroc.rr.com!twister.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120591 "Well" is really all in your definition. IMHO, if what you want to do is run a bunch of compiles in the background it's fine, but you don't get all the queueing and selection features MVS has. You also don't get the facilities of JCL which, for all its faults, is a failrly powerful languahe in itself. Think rinning a series of steps with condition code testing. Think running a job that uses lots of tapes. "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote: > > Eric Smith (eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com) writes: > > > > So did Jay mean that CP/CMS sucks at batch? > > Not really. Used batch CMS briefly about 1990 and it worked well. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:11:00 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> <3DCFBFCE.F41A8899@yahoo.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1037027460 12328 134.117.136.30 (11 Nov 2002 15:11:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Nov 2002 15:11:00 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120612 Peter Flass (peter_flass@yahoo.com) writes: > "Well" is really all in your definition. IMHO, if what you want to do > is run a bunch of compiles in the background it's fine, but you don't > get all the queueing and selection features MVS has. You also don't get > the facilities of JCL which, for all its faults, is a failrly powerful > languahe in itself. Think rinning a series of steps with condition code > testing. Think running a job that uses lots of tapes. Think REXX. ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:09:20 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1037110160 4752 128.29.24.210 (12 Nov 2002 14:09:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:09:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120670 Eric Smith writes: >So did Jay mean that CP/CMS sucks at batch? Surely VM can support >batch just fine under some other supervisor? Depends on what you want to do. CMS had none of the elaborate bells and whistles that OS/360 and its progeny offered, but if you wanted to just run a simple job (e.g., a compile) it could be done. Personally, I would not use CMS for a "production" batch environment; that's what OS/360 (etc.) would be used for as guest operating systems. CMS was designed for interactive work with a batch system grafted onto it; OS/360 (or DOS/360) etc. were batch systems with time-sharing capabilities grafted onto them with varying degrees of success. And guest operating systems under VM retain their native capabilities, so you don't lose much (and sometimes gain performance) by running your batch-oriented OS as a guest to provide the services that VM/CMS doesn't. ...which is a good example of the advantages of *not* attempting to make one operaing system do everything. It's far better to use a tool that's been designed to perform the task at hand. Recall the old apherism that "if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything in the world looks like a nail." Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:12:17 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1037110337 4757 128.29.24.210 (12 Nov 2002 14:12:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:12:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120664 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: >lets say i fell into the career opportunities ... by spending a lot of >late nights at the university computing center ... until they give me >the whole machine room from 8am sat. until 8am monday ... and the >responsibility for supporting the production operating systems. After >that I usually tried to schedule things so my first class on monday >wasn't until 10am ... it would give me a chance to shower. Pulling a >48hr shift w/o sleep and then doing monday classes sometimes was >interesting activity. I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained to them... Joe Morris (who for many years saw sunrise only when leaving the office) ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 12 Nov 2002 15:57:16 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1037116636 16125 134.117.136.30 (12 Nov 2002 15:57:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Nov 2002 15:57:16 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120678 Joe Morris (jcmorris@mitre.org) writes: > > I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup > need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained > to them... > > Joe Morris (who for many years saw sunrise only when leaving the office) And what thanks did you get for it? Heinz (been there, done that) W.W. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 94 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:PDrBlNPnP/RuDCNjx944pQMq0VI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:03:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.58.58.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1037120610 65.58.58.36 (Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:03:30 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:03:30 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120654 jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) writes: > I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup > need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained > to them... > > Joe Morris (who for many years saw sunrise only when leaving the office) it wasn't so much the all nighters and then rest ... it was the 48hr shift and then go to class. later there was this joke about working 1st shift in bldg.28/sjr, 2nd shift in bldgs14/15/disk engineering, and 3rd shift in bldg90/STL. I was at dinner 3-4 weeks ago with a group and somebody was telling story about (20+ yeargs ago) sitting in a 1st floor conference room in bldg.90/STL and watching the sun come up over the east hills ... and a janitor caming around outside sweeping the concret footing of the bldg (and wishing he could change places with the janitor since some acceptance testing we were working on hadn't been going well; he was with a non-ibm hardware vendor). bldg.90/stl is set in coyote valley (was almost named the coyote lab) and since it was built has been the only bldg (although at one time tandem had option to build big campus complex and move all its operations ... and then later cisco seemed to have bought the option). the area around the bldg. is somewhat natural. The data center is underneath everything and when it was first built ... was subject to flooding. sometimes i would work in bldg.90/stl during the day and ride my bike to work. the valley had the interesting characteristic that there was typically a strong head wind heading both directions (in the morning the bay is warmer than the south valley/salinas ... and the air rises over the bay and sucks air from south valley between the santa cruz mountains and the east hills, in the afternoon, the south valley is warmer than the bay and the wind reverses). This is the effect that also moderates SanFran weather ... since the hotter it is in the south valley ... the more air is being sucked from the bay ... and eventually pulling it from the pacific thru the gap at the golden gate (typically the hotter it is in the south valley, the greater the air conditioning effect at the golden gate with stronger pull of cooler air from the pacific) some old bldg.90/stl stories http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#16 Why Mainframes? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#36 why is there an "@" key? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#65 Old naked woman ASCII art http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#75 Read if over 40 and have Mainframe background http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#110 OS/360 names and error codes (was: Humorous and/or Interesting Opcodes) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#212 GEOPLEX http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#18 Computer of the century http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#77 Mainframe operating systems http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#56 South San Jose (was Tysons Corner, Virginia) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#58 South San Jose (was Tysons Corner, Virginia) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#72 Microsoft boss warns breakup could worsen virus problem http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#65 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#49 How did Oracle get started? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#18 OT? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#30 OT? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#22 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#54 FBA History Question (was: RE: What's the meaning of track overfl ow?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#64 VTOC/VTOC INDEX/VVDS and performance (expansion of VTOC position) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#64 Design (Was Re: Server found behind drywall) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#22 Early AIX including AIX/370 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#32 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#34 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#37 Thread drift: Coyote Union (or Coyote Ugly?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#29 checking some myths. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#11 YKYGOW... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#22 ESCON Channel Limits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#46 3270 protocol http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#11 OCO http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#10 index searching http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#30 OS Workloads : Interactive etc http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#13 Secure Device Drivers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#55 Multics hardware (was Re: "Soul of a New Machine" Computer?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#60 Java, C++ (was Re: Is HTML dead?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#61 Java, C++ (was Re: Is HTML dead?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#67 history of CMS http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#22 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#24 CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#69 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#6 HONE was .. Hercules and System/390 - do we need it? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#67 Total Computing Power http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#74 Itanium2 power limited? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#9 Avoiding JCL Space Abends http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#47 Do any architectures use instruction count instead of timer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#71 Faster seeks (was Re: Do any architectures use instruction http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#36 VR vs. Portable Computing http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#66 Mainframe Spreadsheets - 1980's History -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:0jntWWnp8q0HixQpzBeBN/QBMv0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:17:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.58.58.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1037121477 65.58.58.36 (Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:17:57 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:17:57 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120650 ... although when i was at 545tech sq .... sometimes i would be working late and miss the last B&M train out of north station ... and have to work thru the west of the night and then walk over to north station in the morning and catch the first train. this is when lechmere was still big warehouse looking bldg with a large paved lot. now that area has gone all really upscale (and the hotel that used to be called the chart house is now a sonesta or renaissance or something ... and surrounded by lotus bldgs.) -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: Wed, 13 Nov 02 13:02:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZAk0zzCCuGrqRrfinKbZErjoHnpl5PHP3ez29NdFFPAJXqzNhP5jqs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 2002 13:25:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-56 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120729 In article , ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: >Joe Morris (jcmorris@mitre.org) writes: >> >> I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup >> need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained >> to them... >> >> Joe Morris (who for many years saw sunrise only when leaving the office) > > And what thanks did you get for it? > Heinz (been there, done that) W.W. > Why do you need thanks? The benefits were overwhelming. Number one benefit was avoiding all of that 8:00-17:00 nattering. The only time anybody could get serious work done was non-prime time. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: Wed, 13 Nov 02 13:06:06 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVagBBsHOzrtbFc1qL8puRut+vy4cGCEHYDU93tsd2mCTxUD9uIbIrS/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Nov 2002 13:29:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!borium.box.nl!peer1.news.newnet.co.uk!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-56 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120727 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) writes: >> I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup >> need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained >> to them... >> >> Joe Morris (who for many years saw sunrise only when leaving the office) > >it wasn't so much the all nighters and then rest ... it was the 48hr >shift and then go to class. later there was this joke about working >1st shift in bldg.28/sjr, 2nd shift in bldgs14/15/disk engineering, >and 3rd shift in bldg90/STL. > >I was at dinner 3-4 weeks ago with a group and somebody was telling >story about (20+ yeargs ago) sitting in a 1st floor conference room in >bldg.90/STL and watching the sun come up over the east hills ... and a >janitor caming around outside sweeping the concret footing of the bldg >(and wishing he could change places with the janitor since some >acceptance testing we were working on hadn't been going well; he was >with a non-ibm hardware vendor). Oh, yeah. TW didn't sub-title his RH20 writeup about longing to be an encyclopedia salesman because everything worked well. Anybody who thinks people become bit gods just by being smart are foolish. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 12 Nov 2002 16:05:12 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 12 Nov 2002 16:32:22 -0800, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!newsfeed.online.be!64.154.60.99.MISMATCH!c02.atl3!news.webusenet.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120746 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > most guest operating systems run slower in a VM virtual machine that > they would on the bare metal (because of the need for VM to simulate > lots of the supervisor state instructions and various other > characteristics). However, starting on 148 with VS/1 & VM microcode > assists and various tweaking of VS/1 operations ... there were lots of > customers that were able to show VS/1 running faster under VM than on > the native hardware. Were any of the VM microcode assists ever explained in documentation available to customers? Have the same VM assists been available on most models since then, or are they model-specific? ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 130 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:OMrtkgxRsruWsfuCV/RsGvFEznk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:12:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.58.58.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1037149959 65.58.58.36 (Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:12:39 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:12:39 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120726 Eric Smith writes: > Were any of the VM microcode assists ever explained in documentation > available to customers? > > Have the same VM assists been available on most models since then, or > are they model-specific? there were essentially two types of microcode assists 1) privilege instruction execution using virtual machine rules .... aka instead of generating a program interrupt for the privilege instruction, the microcode of the machine recognized that it was in virtual machine mode and executing the instruction using "virtual machine" rules. The first such set of this started with assist microcode on the 370/158. Various machines have extended until the SIE instruction in 370-XA and then carrying forward until present day with LPARs. This eliminated having to interrupt the CP kernel to simulate the privilege instruction. I believe that all machines that supported 370-XA (and later architectures, aka starting with 3081 20-some years ago) supported SIE. I believe all current machines support LPARs. 2) vm cp kernel code that was copied into microcode originally for 138&148 machines. 370 on the low & mid range machines was microcode on some native processor engine with a typical microcode:370 instruction ratio of about 10:1 (aka there were about 10 microcode instructions executed for every 370 instruction). Basically a variation on the "B2xx" op-code was inserted into the 370 instruction stream with various parameters (including pointer to various 370 addresses when it was done). The various B2xx functions would duplicate (in microcode) the 370 kernel instruction sequence at approximately ten times performance improvement. This was VM ECPS for the 138/148 and started out saying with the microcode group in endicott saying that they had 6000 bytes of microcode space and they wanted to pick approximately 6000 bytes of the highest used CP kernel instructions. The following describes the 6000 bytes of cp kernel 370 instruction that were selected for replication in microcode: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#21 370 ecps vm The selected 6000 bytes accounted for 79.55 percent of kernel excution time. The 138/148 also supported the #1 enhancement for various privilege instructions that was done for the 370/158 plus a couple additional instructions that hadn't been done by the 158 microcode assist. For the most part, these "assisted" instructions executing in almost the same time/performance as they would in non-virtual machine mode (nearly zero virtual machine simulation overhead). For the situations were CP kernel was necessary (privilege instructions not simulated by the microcode, task-switch, virtual memory page exceptions, page i/o, etc), the special ECPS B2xx instruction reducted 80 percent of kernel execution time to 8 percent. VS1 operating system then also had ECPS microcode assists done for it on 138/148 machines. And there were also a different sent of things done for the VS1 operating system where, if it knew it was running in a virtual machine utilized some new interfaces to operate much more efficiently (in some cases relying on the CP kernel to perform functions that it would otherwise do itself ... eliminating some exectuion duplication). The overall effects might cut cp kernel execution as a percent of total execution from possibly forty percent (with absolutely no microcode help and/or guest operating system sensitivity) to possibly 4-5 percent. In some cases with the VS1 guest operating system enhancements, that 4-5 percent CP kernel time might have originally been 6-10 percent VS1 operating system time (if running on the bare iron) .... resulting in the situation that some customers saw higher thruput with VS1 running in a virtual machine than if it had been running on the bare metal. there are all sorts of documentation with respect to to SIE (start interpretive execution), PR/SM (processor resource/system manager), LPAR (logial partitioned). Search some of the IBM documentation sites. some random places: http://www.vm.ibm.com/perf/tips/lparinfo.html http://www.vm.ibm.com/perf/tips/prgccw.html http://www.vm.ibm.com/perf/tips/prgvse.html misc past references to SIE, PR/SM, &/or LPAR: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#37 SIE instruction (S/390) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#45 Why can't more CPUs virtualize themselves? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#57 Reliability and SMPs http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#191 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#8 Computer of the century http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#63 Mainframe operating systems http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#86 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#50 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#51 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#52 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#61 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#62 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#8 IBM Linux http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#50 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#68 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#76 Is a VAX a mainframe? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#78 TSS ancient history, was X86 ultimate CISC? designs) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#72 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#5 SIMTICS http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#61 Estimate JCL overhead http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#17 Accounting systems ... still in use? (Do we still share?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#23 MERT Operating System & Microkernels http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#2 Alpha: an invitation to communicate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#33 D http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#71 IBM 9020 FAA/ATC Systems from 1960's http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#73 Most complex instructions http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#71 Encryption + Error Correction http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#24 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#38 CMS under MVS http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#53 TSS/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#26 Open Architectures ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#31 Hercules etc. IBM not just missing a great opportunity... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#32 Hercules etc. IBM not just missing a great opportunity... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#6 Microcode? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#7 Microcode? (& index searching) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#44 PDP-10 Archive migration plan http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#53 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#31 2 questions: diag 68 and calling convention http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#25 Crazy idea: has it been done? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#75 Computers in Science Fiction http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#6 Blade architectures http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002f.html#57 IBM competes with Sun w/new Chips http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#6 Tweaking old computers? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#27 why does wait state exist? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#28 why does wait state exist? -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 49 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:cUHQHQsZEOqf+q/ppnPfCucA0Gk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:34:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.58.58.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1037151248 65.58.58.36 (Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:34:08 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:34:08 PST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120723 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > This was VM ECPS for the 138/148 and started out saying with the > microcode group in endicott saying that they had 6000 bytes of > microcode space and they wanted to pick approximately 6000 bytes of > the highest used CP kernel instructions. The following describes > the 6000 bytes of cp kernel 370 instruction that were selected > for replication in microcode: > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#21 370 ecps vm at the same time I was working on 138/148 ECPS ... I was also working on a thing called VAMPS ... which was a multiprocessor architecture involving 370/125. The 115&125 basic hardware had a 9-ported internal bus for up to 9 microprocessors. In the 115, all the microprocessor engines were the same ... just with different programming; implementing the various controller functions as well as the 370 cpu (i.e. 370 microprocessor engine was identical to the other microprocessor engines ... but with microcode that implement 370 instruction set). The 125 was identical to the 115 except the microprocessor engine used for the 370 CPU was unique and faster than all the other microprocessors. VAMPS was a project that would deploy two to five 125 processor engines on the internal 9-port internal bus. A problem was that the 138/148 ECPS effort was trying to make the whole 138/148 product line VM (i.e. all machines would be shipped with VM ... in much the same way all machines currently ship with LPAR support). The 138/148 group then viewed the 5-way VAMPS effort moving up into their targeted market segment. So things eventually escalated until there was an executive meeting with the 138/148 group on one side of the table and the VAMPS group on the other side of the table ... and I had a seat on both sides. I also had to carry the majority of the argument for both sides ... logically switching sides of the table depending on which side of the argument I was taking at that particular moment. random vamps references: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#68 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#10 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?" http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#11 4341 was "Is a VAX a mainframe?" http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#6 Ridiculous http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#7 Ridiculous http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#2 Most complex instructions (was Re: IBM 9020 FAA/ATC Systems from 1960's) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#18 I hate Compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#19 I hate Compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#48 Pentium 4 SMT "Hyperthreading" http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#80 HONE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#82 HONE -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Message-ID: <3DD2369B.6DFE050D@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1037179707 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:28:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:28:27 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:28:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn14feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120756 "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote: > > Joe Morris (jcmorris@mitre.org) writes: > > > > I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup > > need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained > > to them... > > > > Joe Morris (who for many years saw sunrise only when leaving the office) > > And what thanks did you get for it? > Heinz (been there, done that) W.W. > Reference the poem "The Last Bug". "No matter what you do or how much you are paid, you are always working for yourself." -- Steinmetz -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 13 Nov 2002 12:20:37 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120718 In article , Joe Morris wrote: >I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup >need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained >to them... I realized I was staying too late, too long as a graduate student when I started meeting faculty going into the builidng as I was leaving . . . If you were a vampire in the United States today, graduate school would be your best hiding place. Your sun-avoiding hours would seem quite normal, no mirrors, and *everyone* has a pasty complexion. Besides, who would ever notice a couple of missing freshmen? :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1037248801 12.237.69.162 (Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:40:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:40:01 GMT Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 04:40:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!c02.atl3!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120841 "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article , > Joe Morris wrote: > > >I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup > >need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained > >to them... > > I realized I was staying too late, too long as a graduate student when I > started meeting faculty going into the builidng as I was leaving . . . > > If you were a vampire in the United States today, graduate school would > be your best hiding place. Your sun-avoiding hours would seem quite > normal, no mirrors, and *everyone* has a pasty complexion. > > Besides, who would ever notice a couple of missing freshmen? > So maybe the blood-sucking professors come from those vampire graduate students moving up in their career??? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 57 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:30:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: news01.chello.no 1037269802 212.186.246.195 (Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:30:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:30:02 MET Organization: chello broadband Norway X-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:30:02 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!uio.no!news01.chello.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120828 According to Joe Morris : >Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > >>lets say i fell into the career opportunities ... by spending a lot of >>late nights at the university computing center ... until they give me >>the whole machine room from 8am sat. until 8am monday ... and the >>responsibility for supporting the production operating systems. After >>that I usually tried to schedule things so my first class on monday >>wasn't until 10am ... it would give me a chance to shower. Pulling a >>48hr shift w/o sleep and then doing monday classes sometimes was >>interesting activity. > >I doubt seriously that any of the regular readers of this newsgroup >need to have the concept of "late night work on the computer" explained >to them... > >Joe Morris (who for many years saw sunrise only when leaving the office) And did the sunrise ever surprise you? I had several occations where I was genuinly surprised by the weather outside after leaving a windowless, secured, air conditioned, always lit computer room that was pretty separated from the rest of the world; environment-wise. When the birds chirping in the park becomes a new sensation, and you appreciate the warmth of a late summer after the aircon chill has gotten to your bones, despite an extra set of sweaters. And the late summer weather was sometimes totally unexpected, as it appeared out of nowhere in this other universe outside the walls. This computer room environment was pretty cold, drafty and noisy. Having some enclosure where you could still see and get to the hardware in a few seconds, but outside the aircon drafts and machine noise was valuable, and got popular pretty fast. We even arranged permissions for bringing in coffee to this area. (beverages and food were strictly forbidden near $1m+ per rack hardware) Once inside these machine rooms you were in separate universe, with some task to do, and freedom from interruptions while it went on. There were some exceptions. Once the fire brigade hammered in the door after getting a silent (false) alarm. They never bothered to phone. (there was an operator alarm number, pretty much the only way to contact someone inside). We had shut down a sufficient number of machines for the aircon to go haywire, and we had to shut some of the coollers down; which gave fire alarams. That was a computer installation that was never designed to be shut down. -- Morten Reistad ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 14 Nov 2002 15:08:37 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news.uchicago.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120781 In article <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: >> I realized I was staying too late, too long as a graduate student when I >> started meeting faculty going into the builidng as I was leaving . . . >> If you were a vampire in the United States today, graduate school would >> be your best hiding place. Your sun-avoiding hours would seem quite >> normal, no mirrors, and *everyone* has a pasty complexion. >> Besides, who would ever notice a couple of missing freshmen? >So maybe the blood-sucking professors come from those vampire >graduate students moving up in their career??? *Put the wooden stake down* I have a reflection. After not practicing aw for seven years, I got my soul back . . . hawk, who finds that small rodents are more effective for sacrificing to the scsi chain than freshmen, anyway -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: SPgoogleAM@sungames.com (jeffrey boulier) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 14 Nov 2002 14:23:22 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.124.103.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1037312602 5589 127.0.0.1 (14 Nov 2002 22:23:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Nov 2002 22:23:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120916 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote in message news:... > cms has a cmsbatch ... that isn't even up to the level of os/360 PCP. > cmsbatch is sort of like automated terminal session. What were the differences between CMSBATCH and Sterling Software's VMBATCH? When I was a VM guy, I worked on an old 4381 that had acquired years and years of customizations and was running an amazing number of commercial programs (the joys of academia). Upside: everything was really easy. Downside: VM/370 on Hercules was a horrible shock! Yours truly, Jeffrey Boulier ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Lines: 28 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:30:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: news01.chello.no 1037323802 212.186.246.195 (Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:30:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:30:02 MET Organization: chello broadband Norway X-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:30:02 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news01.chello.se!news01.chello.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120903 According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : >In article <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: >>"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > >>> I realized I was staying too late, too long as a graduate student when I >>> started meeting faculty going into the builidng as I was leaving . . . > >>> If you were a vampire in the United States today, graduate school would >>> be your best hiding place. Your sun-avoiding hours would seem quite >>> normal, no mirrors, and *everyone* has a pasty complexion. > >>> Besides, who would ever notice a couple of missing freshmen? > >>So maybe the blood-sucking professors come from those vampire >>graduate students moving up in their career??? > >*Put the wooden stake down* > >I have a reflection. After not practicing aw for seven years, I got my >soul back . . . > >hawk, who finds that small rodents are more effective for sacrificing to >the scsi chain than freshmen, anyway Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep or goat. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:51:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1037328679 24.71.223.147 (Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:51:19 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:51:19 MST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!prodigy.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120947 On 14 Nov 2002 14:23:22 -0800, SPgoogleAM@sungames.com (jeffrey boulier) wrote: >Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote in message news:... >> cms has a cmsbatch ... that isn't even up to the level of os/360 PCP. >> cmsbatch is sort of like automated terminal session. > >What were the differences between CMSBATCH and Sterling Software's >VMBATCH? When I was a VM guy, I worked on an old 4381 that had >acquired years and years of customizations and was running an amazing >number of commercial programs (the joys of academia). Upside: >everything was really easy. Downside: VM/370 on Hercules was a >horrible shock! CMSBATCH VM ran a script of CMS commands from its reader instead of the console: you had to spool your punch to CMSBATCH class B and punch the script. The script had to spool the console, printer, and punch output back to yourself, attach your mdisks ro, attach and format tdisks if you wanted any r/w space, copy stuff to modify from your mdisks to the tdisk, do your work, then send anything you wanted to keep back to yourself. VM Software's VMBATCH was more like a Unix at/cron processor which tried to set up a reasonable environment for execution, took care of a lot of the housekeeping, and IIRC had screens for submission and display. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 15 Nov 2002 21:21:49 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net> <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120951 In article <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>, Morten Reistad wrote: >According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : >>hawk, who finds that small rodents are more effective for sacrificing to >>the scsi chain than freshmen, anyway >Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep >or goat. Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: Sat, 16 Nov 02 11:46:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net> <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbFAS9Gu117nUibz8bAAkOS7RZT1R1YhFSP3oD4iUc7O3v/vedxszWu X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Nov 2002 12:10:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-35 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120983 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>, >Morten Reistad wrote: >>According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : > >>>hawk, who finds that small rodents are more effective for sacrificing to >>>the scsi chain than freshmen, anyway > >>Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep >>or goat. > >Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? Freshman can count? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@acer.reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 19 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:30:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.186.246.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@chello.no X-Trace: news01.chello.no 1037457009 212.186.246.195 (Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:30:09 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:30:09 MET Organization: chello broadband Norway X-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:30:09 MET (news01.chello.no) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news01.chello.se!news01.chello.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121004 According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : >In article <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>, >Morten Reistad wrote: >>According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : > >>>hawk, who finds that small rodents are more effective for sacrificing to >>>the scsi chain than freshmen, anyway > >>Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep >>or goat. > >Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? Freshmen were at short supply in the financial world; we had to settle for lawyers or option traders. -- mrr ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 16 Nov 2002 15:21:33 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120981 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : >>In article <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>, >>Morten Reistad wrote: >>>>hawk, who finds that small rodents are more effective for sacrificing to >>>>the scsi chain than freshmen, anyway >>>Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep >>>or goat. >>Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? >Freshmen were at short supply in the financial world; we had to >settle for lawyers or option traders. Uhh, I think lawyers are negative credit . . . :) hawk, esq. -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 16 Nov 2002 15:38:11 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:120974 In article , wrote: >In article , > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >>>Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep >>>or goat. >>Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? >Freshman can count? If they use their fingers. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3DD76224.D8B5074D@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1037518535 12.237.69.162 (Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:35:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:35:35 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:35:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121087 "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article , wrote: > >In article , > > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > > >>>Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep > >>>or goat. > > >>Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? > > >Freshman can count? > > If they use their fingers. > First they have to remove their fingers from their noses, their mouths, and their anal orifices. How do you break an Aggie's finger??? You hit him in the nose. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3DD7626E.7D5A85D4@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc04 1037518609 12.237.69.162 (Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:36:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:36:49 GMT Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:36:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc04.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121095 "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article , > Morten Reistad wrote: > > >According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : > >>In article <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>, > >>Morten Reistad wrote: > > >>>>hawk, who finds that small rodents are more effective for sacrificing to > >>>>the scsi chain than freshmen, anyway > > >>>Long ESMD chains required at least the sacrifice of a small sheep > >>>or goat. > > >>Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? > > >Freshmen were at short supply in the financial world; we had to > >settle for lawyers or option traders. > > Uhh, I think lawyers are negative credit . . . > Why does Texas have the most toxic waste dumps in the US and New Jersey have the most lawyers??? Answer: Because Texas got to pick first... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: 18 Nov 2002 20:40:52 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3DD7626E.7D5A85D4@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121128 In article <3DD7626E.7D5A85D4@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: >> >Freshmen were at short supply in the financial world; we had to >> >settle for lawyers or option traders. >> Uhh, I think lawyers are negative credit . . . >Why does Texas have the most toxic waste dumps in the US >and New Jersey have the most lawyers??? >Answer: Because Texas got to pick first... uhm, isn't it new jersey with all the waste dumps? ANd texas *is* up there on the out of control lawyers . . . :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:34:59 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Message-ID: <20021119073459.58d8a8fb.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3DD7626E.7D5A85D4@ev1.net> <3DD963F3.C0D7F907@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Organization: EuroNet Internet NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Nov 2002 17:59:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.234.208.113 X-Trace: DXC=O^i_FfT>8\PZAZHC7KQV0SSKYkiiVZ:6_4eET7iD^N5\Bn?eXoXMn:R3ShV1WO]J;V5KGa=1OY^]_ X-Complaints-To: abuse@euronet.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!easynews.net!newsfeed3.easynews.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!maya.euronet.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121209 On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:07:46 GMT CBFalconer wrote: C> I understand they have a new coat of arms: C> Impaled lawyers rampant on a field of toxic gules. Hmm, I spy a business opportunity ... How much can you charge the tourists to impale a lawyer. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3DDA2B23.619B9E93@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes References: <3DD7626E.7D5A85D4@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1037701061 12.237.69.162 (Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:17:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:17:41 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:17:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121226 "Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > In article <3DD7626E.7D5A85D4@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote: > > >> >Freshmen were at short supply in the financial world; we had to > >> >settle for lawyers or option traders. > > >> Uhh, I think lawyers are negative credit . . . > > >Why does Texas have the most toxic waste dumps in the US > >and New Jersey have the most lawyers??? > > >Answer: Because Texas got to pick first... > > uhm, isn't it new jersey with all the waste dumps? ANd texas *is* up > there on the out of control lawyers . . . > Actually I think that Texas wins out handily with the number of toxic waste dumps. Texas has a large chemical industry, what with all the oil in the past... And IIRC, New Jersey still probably easily has *more* lawyers. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Home mainframes Date: Thu, 21 Nov 02 12:51:17 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <42710f4a.0210240847.38be93c5@posting.google.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZB1Fzpl6XexKoZx+aMinKTlGRu90G06BccHhC4MLoJyjdFbnjsZ/6N X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Nov 2002 13:16:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-201 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:121370 In article , lawrence.jones@eds.com wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> Anybody who thinks people become bit gods just by being smart >> are foolish. > >Indeed -- it requires a delicate balance: you have to >be smart enough to be >*able* to do it and dumb enough to be *willing* to do it. :-) Yup. For years and years and years. > .. (Or, >more likely, compulsive enough to be unable to avoid doing it.) Once in a while, I envied those people who only worked for money. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Home mainframes Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:43:23 -0400 References: <3DD34481.39A7F1EC@ev1.net> <13g1ra.7572.ln@via.reistad.priv.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: max1ka-66.his.com X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 1055994189 max1ka-66.his.com (18 Jun 2003 23:43:09 -0400) Lines: 10 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!irazu.switch.ch!switch.ch!luth.se!out.nntp.be!propagator2-sterling!In.nntp.be!vienna7.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:141929 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: > Does a goat count more or less than a freshman? They can count higher, that's for sure. -- E "Clever Hands" R