From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Rechipping old computers... Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:49:24 -0500 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 34 Message-ID: X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1034362154 27416 160.94.172.8 (11 Oct 2002 18:49:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119053 Whenever I open up an old computer and I see scads of 74xx TTL logic, I get the irrational urge to order a new set of chips, but in something like 74VHC flavor. For those of you not in the digital design area, the original 74xx chips had a certain, relatively low speed per power quality factor. Since then other mostly-compatible flavors have come out-- LSTTL which is about the same speed, only 1/3 the heat, HC which is high-speed CMOS, with power drain quasi-proportional to actual signal transitions/sec; and even VHC which adds another multiple to the speed. Has anyone considered taking some old TTL computer and moving it up to LS, HC, or even VHC? It would be a blast to have a PDP-11/20 running at some multiple of its original speed. ( Obvious stumbling blocks: microcode memory speed, main memory speed, ..., UNIBUS speed... ) Or, just running it at original speed, but with HC chips so you don't need all that power supply, fans, and air conditioning.... Still a cool idea. ###### Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:36:29 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... Message-ID: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> References: X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 20:42:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i2126.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=?X[fh[X6P3EHE1:m`@J0UC1`\LnN2UYYA@c3YQ4dfbLHhC_lbVB6eNK wrote: GRG> Whenever I open up an old computer and I see scads of 74xx TTL logic, GRG> I get the GRG> irrational urge to order a new set of chips, but in something like GRG> 74VHC flavor. If they're not socketed the idea is not just irrational, it's truly crazy - I like it - as long as I'm not holding the desoldering iron trying to lever chips off the board without cooking it :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:40:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.176.46 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1034379605 12.90.176.46 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:40:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:40:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119118 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:49:24 -0500 > "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: > > GRG> Whenever I open up an old computer and I see scads of 74xx > GRG> TTL logic, I get the irrational urge to order a new set of > GRG> chips, but in something like 74VHC flavor. > > If they're not socketed the idea is not just irrational, it's > truly crazy - I like it - as long as I'm not holding the desoldering > iron trying to lever chips off the board without cooking it :) Think of the cost of all that solder wick too. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Reply-To: "George Gonzalez" From: "George Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> <3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.118.121.151 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1034379986 24.118.121.151 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:46:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:46:26 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:46:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119015 "CBFalconer" wrote in message news:3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com... > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > If they're not socketed the idea is not just irrational, it's > > truly crazy - I like it - as long as I'm not holding the desoldering > > iron trying to lever chips off the board without cooking it :) > > Think of the cost of all that solder wick too. It's not so bad-- since you probably don't care to salvage the old chip, you can just snip the leads away from the body, then you can unsolder the leads one at a time, with a solder-sucker ready. Gack, that reminds me of the chore of removing the original 64K RAM chips in the original Mac, in order to replace them with 256K chips. Took hours IIRC. ###### From: bill turner Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 22 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:46:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.91.16.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: twister.socal.rr.com 1034380002 66.91.16.179 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:46:42 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:46:42 PDT Organization: RoadRunner - West Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.columbus.rr.com!cyclone3.kc.rr.com!news3.kc.rr.com!twister.socal.rr.com.POSTED!bill_gets_stuff Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119088 In article <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:49:24 -0500 > "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: > > GRG> Whenever I open up an old computer and I see scads of 74xx TTL logic, > GRG> I get the > GRG> irrational urge to order a new set of chips, but in something like > GRG> 74VHC flavor. > > If they're not socketed the idea is not just irrational, it's > truly crazy - I like it - as long as I'm not holding the desoldering > iron trying to lever chips off the board without cooking it :) Not only that, there's caps and pull-ups that would need tweaking. Frankly I haven't actually wanted to work on boards since surface-mounted devices became the norm. I switched to software; my hands stay much cleaner. (At least literally.) -- bill ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... Date: 12 Oct 2002 14:56:29 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6uadlj3jeq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> <3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1034427389 363 10.0.3.2 (12 Oct 2002 12:56:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2002 12:56:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119124 "George Gonzalez" writes: > "CBFalconer" wrote in message > > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > > If they're not socketed the idea is not just irrational, it's > > > truly crazy - I like it - as long as I'm not holding the desoldering > > > iron trying to lever chips off the board without cooking it :) > > > > Think of the cost of all that solder wick too. > > It's not so bad-- since you probably don't care to salvage the old chip, > you can just snip the leads away from the body, then you can unsolder > the leads one at a time, with a solder-sucker ready. Gack, that reminds > me of the chore of removing the original 64K RAM chips in the original Mac, > in order to replace them with 256K chips. Took hours IIRC. Would it not be cheaper, timewise (no disassembly, just new assembly), to just get some wire-wrap boards and gear and copy the original board using the 74VHCs and fitting Rs anc Cs? Or instead of 74VHCs, go and clone it in an FPGA, using some standard prototyping boards (= no soldering at all), so anyone can download it an have their own copy? And these ways both leave the original unchanged (keep for comparison, or give to collector) as an side effect. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - hardware runs the world, software controls the hardware code generates the software, have you coded today? ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:32:06 +0100 Message-ID: <4b843720e0dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.29) Organization: None Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: userld42.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1034517826 news.dial.pipex.com 8507 62.188.110.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.online.be!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!auucp0.ams.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119185 In article <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > If they're not socketed the idea is not just irrational, it's > truly crazy - I like it - as long as I'm not holding the desoldering > iron trying to lever chips off the board without cooking it :) One of my colleagues at the place where I used to work once upgraded a memory board that two megabytes of memory to four meg. The board dated back to the mid '80s, so that meant there were a lot of ICs involved. The board was designed to hold four meg, but the holes for the second two meg were full of solder. Using nothing more than a solder sucker and an ordinary soldering iron, he spent days unblocking all the holes then fitting the new ICs and stuff. The board worked. Dave Daniels ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:58:00 +0100 Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: darkboong.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1034455902 4276 80.177.7.220 (12 Oct 2002 20:51:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:51:42 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119179 "George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message news:ao76fa$qoo$1@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > Whenever I open up an old computer and I see scads of 74xx TTL logic, I get > the > irrational urge to order a new set of chips, but in something like 74VHC > flavor. > > For those of you not in the digital design area, the original 74xx chips had > a certain, > relatively low speed per power quality factor. Since then other > mostly-compatible > flavors have come out-- LSTTL which is about the same speed, only 1/3 the > heat, > HC which is high-speed CMOS, with power drain quasi-proportional to actual > signal transitions/sec; and even VHC which adds another multiple to the > speed. > > Has anyone considered taking some old TTL computer and moving it up to LS, > HC, > or even VHC? I looked into doing that with the VAX-11/785 I had. It seemed like a nifty idea until someone pointed out that it would not net much if the logic was running close to the top-whack (this was comparing 74/74S to 74HC/74LS I think). I had a look at the boards and realised that a fair proportion of it would be running at a speed which made the heat argument pretty minor. It would also be fairly likely that something would go wrong in the operation and I'd have non-working scrap instead of working scrap. Another point is that bus-tranceivers and memories can burn a fair chunk of power - so it would probably make more sense to go after those. For example replacing the GODKNOWSHOWMANY MS780 cards with a SIMM would have made a big improvement. That would have required a fair amount of design effort given that I didn't have the prints. :/ > It would be a blast to have a PDP-11/20 running at some multiple of its > original speed. Buy a FPGA and stick a -11 onto it... Cheaper and more fun. ;) > ( Obvious stumbling blocks: microcode memory speed, main memory speed, ..., > UNIBUS speed... ) > > Or, just running it at original speed, but with HC chips so you don't need > all that > power supply, fans, and air conditioning.... > > > Still a cool idea. It's mad. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3DA8B1C1.C3E0B59E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> <3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1034458698 12.237.69.162 (Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:38:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:38:18 GMT Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:38:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119204 George Gonzalez wrote: > > "CBFalconer" wrote in message > news:3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com... > > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > > If they're not socketed the idea is not just irrational, it's > > > truly crazy - I like it - as long as I'm not holding the desoldering > > > iron trying to lever chips off the board without cooking it :) > > > > Think of the cost of all that solder wick too. > > It's not so bad-- since you probably don't care to salvage the old chip, > you can just snip the leads away from the body, then you can unsolder > the leads one at a time, with a solder-sucker ready. Gack, that reminds > me of the chore of removing the original 64K RAM chips in the original Mac, > in order to replace them with 256K chips. Took hours IIRC. > Did you install low-profile sockets when you put in the 256k chips??? As much as Apple charged for the original Mac, they could well have afforded to socket the 64K RAM chips... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3DA8B8C6.1F09A3FF@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> <3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com> <3DA8B1C1.C3E0B59E@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:13:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.188 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1034467996 12.90.167.188 (Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:13:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:13:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119128 Charles Richmond wrote: > ... snip ... > > Did you install low-profile sockets when you put in the 256k chips??? > As much as Apple charged for the original Mac, they could well have > afforded to socket the 64K RAM chips... Sockets are much less reliable than soldered joints. It all depends on the reliability of the chips, and the probability of changing them. Apple always took/takes the attitude that the latter is zero, due to the infallibility of their designs. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:05:22 +0200 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1034499922.756878@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <20021011223629.2e2c5bed.steveo@eircom.net> <3DA7576B.81301B7@yahoo.com> <3DA8B1C1.C3E0B59E@ev1.net> <3DA8B8C6.1F09A3FF@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1034499922 05 23518 Gx+3beKVS8A4X7 021013 09:05:22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #124 Cache-Post-Path: ds9.klebsch.de!mario@ds9.klebsch.de X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119131 CBFalconer writes: >> As much as Apple charged for the original Mac, they could well have >> afforded to socket the 64K RAM chips... >Sockets are much less reliable than soldered joints. It all >depends on the reliability of the chips, and the probability of >changing them. Apple always took/takes the attitude that the >latter is zero, due to the infallibility of their designs. In later Macs AFAIK, they always had a minimum amount of RAM soldered on their main boards and sockets to install a RAM expansion. My Centris610 hat 4MByte, the PowerMac6100 had 8MByte. The Idea behind probably was to keep the Mac running, even if all expansions were removed. 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### Lines: 9 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: fouldragon@aol.com.ru (Marada C. Shradrakaii) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: 13 Oct 2002 19:04:00 GMT References: <1034499922.756878@ds9.klebsch.de> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Rechipping old computers... Message-ID: <20021013150400.07560.00001160@mb-ft.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!audrey-m2.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119217 >In later Macs AFAIK, they always had a minimum amount of RAM soldered >on their main boards and sockets to install a RAM expansion. IIcx didn't. -- Marada Coeurfuege Shra'drakaii On the Internet, all roads lead to either pornography or a GNU/Linux HOWTO. Which way are you going? Mail hint: Not in Russia