From: "x" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: 74 TTL Series ALU's Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:43:35 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.123.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.nl X-Trace: zwoll1.home.nl 1033137519 212.120.123.205 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:38:39 MEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:38:39 MEST Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!news-x2.support.nl!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!zwoll1.home.nl.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117904 Hi In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. -- T ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:53:26 -0400 Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1033142007 204.250.0.238 (27 Sep 2002 11:53:27 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!triton.net!smallfeed.triton.net!green.readfreenews.net!news.readfreenews.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117809 "x" wrote in message = news:P3_k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... > Hi >=20 > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, = 381, 382 > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to = construct an > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? Do you mean, did anyone ever design a microprocessor whose individual component features used 74 TTL family architecture? Chip gurus, how about it? Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a=20 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... That rat's nest was said to still be functional after that... -dq ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:22:50 +0100 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.249.211 X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1033143404 11007 217.134.249.211 (27 Sep 2002 16:16:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2002 16:16:44 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117901 "x" wrote in message news:P3_k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... > Hi > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these > components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. The VAX-11/785 I had featured a ton of 74S logic on it's cards, but I believed the actual ALU stuff was done via AMD Bitslice components. Definately was fun looking over those boards. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:31:29 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.148.60.4 X-Trace: 27 Sep 2002 09:48:30 -0700, 216.148.60.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!unknown!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118005 From article , by "x" : > Hi > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > 74181's are probably THE most common ALU used in 70's minicomputers. By the time the 2xx and 3xx series came out, most people were using some variant of the 2900 series bitslice. A couple of notable exceptions I can think of were the PERQ and MIT CADR. ###### From: Andrew Carol Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:10:53 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <270920021010539545%aacaroll@coastside.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew1.apple.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.apple.com 1033146549 6046 17.201.25.215 (27 Sep 2002 17:09:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:09:09 +0000 (UTC) Mail-Copies-To: nobody User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.7 (Carbon/OS X) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!aacaroll Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117941 In article , wrote: > Hi > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these > components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. > The Hughes 5118 (18 bit machine) used in air defense ROCC/SOCC sites used a 74181 chip for the ALU along with a very wide microcode scheme. Vast overkill for a machine with only a handful of instructions which could been implemented using random logic. The companion Hughes 1116 (16 bit machine) used 2901 bit slices and a much nicer design. ---- Andy ###### From: tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:15:41 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A series networking Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.63.212.94 X-Trace: trsvr.tr.unisys.com 1033146941 8312 192.63.212.94 (27 Sep 2002 17:15:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tr.unisys.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:15:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news-x2.support.nl!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!bbnews1.unisys.com!trsvr.tr.unisys.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117921 In article , x@x.x says... > >Hi > >In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 >and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an >ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > >Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these >components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. > HP21MX series (HP 1000, HP 2000) series of minicomputers used them for the ALU. I wouldn't be surprised if contemporary HP 3000 series systems used them as well. Later HP 1000/2000 series used a 2900 bit slice. - Tim ###### From: Philip Nasadowski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:46:35 -0400 Organization: Biker/metalhead from hell!!! Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZigkHdZNz2tdPMe2LJ2+qqzps5hoEcd0GoQGv0eoy2VLto44u5jj4V X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2002 18:50:08 GMT X-Harley: '99 FXDWG User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nasadowsk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117920 In article <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a > 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system > where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all > connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, > showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had > been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... Woah, people *do* in fact build homebrew computers out of 74XX logic? neat! -- To email me, change 'usermale' to 'usermail' ###### Message-ID: <3D94A0E7.F34ABDE1@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:53:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.174.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1033152795 12.90.174.55 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:53:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:53:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!rockie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!204.127.161.4!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117796 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > "x" wrote: > > > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > Do you mean, did anyone ever design a microprocessor whose individual > component features used 74 TTL family architecture? > ... snip ... Of course they did. One example is the Microdata 800, which was available in roughly 1970, and was micro programmable. With the standard microprogram it became the Microdata 820, which was a fairly normal GP computer. The first microprograms had to be ROM programmed, and consisted of mounting diodes end on in a specialized board. Later they had a RAM board which could be modified easily, and cost a lot more. The microprograms operated on a 220 nS cycle. Normal main memory was core, and had about a 2 to 5 uS cycle time as I recall. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 27 Sep 2002 19:57:49 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117856 In article , x wrote: >In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 >and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an >ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? >Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these >components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. In addition to all the others, trhere was a popular electronics project that built a 4 bit computer out of common parts like these. It could address all 16 words of its memory :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: John McClenny Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:48:27 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118108 In article , roo@dark.eat- this.b00ng.freeserve.co.uk says... > "x" wrote in message news:P3_k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... > > Hi > > > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, > 382 > > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct > an > > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > > > Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance > these > > components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it > here. > > IIRC, the Datapoint 2200 and 5500 used the ALU. ###### From: dkelvey@hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 27 Sep 2002 16:51:23 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.95.250.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033170683 24830 127.0.0.1 (27 Sep 2002 23:51:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Sep 2002 23:51:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118098 "x" wrote in message news:... > Hi > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these > components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. Hi While many seem to mention various computers that used them, they didn't answer your question. No, there were no microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips. The concept of microprocessor indicated that the logic is not wired at the chip edge. All of the examples given are not microprocessors. This technology was more properly called bit slice. When the process of making microprocessors faster happened, these all because obsolete. The I/O and interconnect speeds limited anything that was wired outside of the parts. That being said, many microprocessors were emulated with ttl parts as design experiments. I know of at least the 8080, 6800 and 8051 being done this way for learning purposes. Dwight ###### Message-ID: <3D94F1AC.BCC341A5@gazonk.del> From: "Foobar T. Clown" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:01:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.151.167.228 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1033171273 141.151.167.228 (Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:01:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:01:13 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118014 Al Kossow wrote: > From article , by "x" : > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, > > 381, 382 and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been > > used to construct an ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > 74181's are probably THE most common ALU used in 70's minicomputers. > > By the time the 2xx and 3xx series came out, most people were using > some variant of the 2900 series bitslice. A couple of notable > exceptions I can think of were the PERQ and MIT CADR. Can't figure out which rule you think the Perq was an exception to. Maybe it's 'cause the Perq used both of the logic familes you mention. It used 74??181 chips for the ALU, and it used a 2910 sequencer to drive the works. -- Foo! ###### From: David R Brooks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 08:02:19 +0800 Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: i178-068.nv.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1033171349 11910 203.59.178.68 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118106 Another commercial machine using 74181: GEC 2050 Homebrew: www.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html "x" wrote: :Hi : :In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 :and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an :ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? : :Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these :components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. ###### From: Let them have the spam Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:07:11 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr200.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1033171652 7885 209.100.226.200 (28 Sep 2002 00:07:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:07:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118111 On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:43:35 +0200, "x" wrote: >Hi > >In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 >and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an >ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? Microprocessor I doubt. > >Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these >components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. The processor from a DCC-116 uses a 74181 or 74S181 as it's ALU. I had to pull the prints to find out. I had forgotten what a pain it is to read those things. :-) -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:40:44 -0800 Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1033173639 10958455 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118029 dwight elvey wrote: > > "x" wrote in message news:... > > Hi > > > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > > > Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these > > components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. > > Hi > While many seem to mention various computers that used them, > they didn't answer your question. No, there were no microprocessor > based on 74 TTL chips. The concept of microprocessor indicated that > the logic is not wired at the chip edge. All of the examples given > are not microprocessors. This technology was more properly called > bit slice. When the process of making microprocessors faster > happened, these all because obsolete. The I/O and interconnect > speeds limited anything that was wired outside of the parts. > That being said, many microprocessors were emulated with > ttl parts as design experiments. I know of at least the 8080, > 6800 and 8051 being done this way for learning purposes. > Dwight Whoops, a rusty synapse just fired. Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, it ran at an astounding 11MHz. Sam ###### Message-ID: <3D95160D.340280C4@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:54:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.172.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1033181672 12.90.172.177 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:54:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:54:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118119 Sam Yorko wrote: > ... snip ... > > Whoops, a rusty synapse just fired. > > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? > IIRC, it ran at an astounding 11MHz. Yup, vaguely. It cost a bundle IIRC. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 27 Sep 2002 20:42:42 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 27 Sep 2002 21:01:30 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118093 Sam Yorko writes: > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, > it ran at an astounding 11MHz. There were two for which I've seen data sheets. One from Signetics using the 3001/3002 bit slice components (second-source of Intel), and one from AMD using the 2901 and 2909 (or was it 2911?). Anybody got one of these, or the documentation? ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 27 Sep 2002 21:25:28 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 63 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0209272025.5dd673f2@posting.google.com> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.188.11 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033187128 6798 127.0.0.1 (28 Sep 2002 04:25:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2002 04:25:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118101 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote in message news:<3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>... > "x" wrote in message > news:P3 k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... > > Hi > > > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, > 381, 382 > > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to > construct an > > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > Do you mean, did anyone ever design a microprocessor whose individual > component features used 74 TTL family architecture? > > Chip gurus, how about it? > > Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a > 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system > where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all > connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, > showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had > been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... > > That rat's nest was said to still be functional after that... > > -dq That is an interesting period of time, when there were computer hobbyists but the microprocessor hadn't yet arrived. I suppose most of the interested people built really simple "computers" based on relays or simple logic. About 1969, I remember reading in the paper an article about some teenagers building a computer, and it sure impressed me; it got me interested in electronics and then ham radio. It took years before it occurred to me that the "computer" may not have been much of anything, and their project far less impressive than I thought when I read about it. But then there was the whole "ACS" (did I get that right, Amateur Computer Society") where people did built up their own computers, either from surplus or from scratch. Byte ran an article about it, I think 1978, maybe by Sol Libes. Roger Amidon's (didn't he pop up later, in connection with an Epson computer?) "Spider" was on the cover of Byte for April 1977. The blurb about the cover says there was a picture in the August 1976 issue; I'm not looking for it. It was apparently a 12-bit computer. In the November 1972 issue of 73 Magazine (the biggest they'd published up till then), there was an article about building a computer. It wasn't a construction article, but did go into what would be needed, and certainly had block diagrams. The author was talking about a real computer, not some logic demonstrator, though it never said whether he was building his own, and how far along he was. If it wasn't the most advanced article about building a computer in the hobby magazines up till then, it had to be amongst the most advanced. Of course, three years minus two months later, the publisher of 73 started Byte. Why did he published the computer artilce thirty years ago, and did it influenced the start of Byte? I've never seen references to that 73 article. Michael ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <6447bcd3.0209272025.5dd673f2@posting.google.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 27 Sep 2002 22:57:36 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 27 Sep 2002 23:16:25 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feeder.via.net!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118091 blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) writes: > Roger Amidon's (didn't he pop up later, in connection with an Epson > computer?) The QX10. > "Spider" was on the cover of Byte for April 1977. The blurb > about the cover says there was a picture in the August 1976 issue; I'm > not looking for it. It was apparently a 12-bit computer. Loren Blaney built a 16-bit computer out of TTL. He also used the one-chip-per-small-proto-board approach, and ended up with something that looked much like Spider. I'm not sure what year he built it. He wrote his own software, and ported the XPL0 programming language (Algol-like syntax, kind of like BCPL) to it: http://www.idcomm.com/personal/lorenblaney/ ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:20:45 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <6447bcd3.0209272025.5dd673f2@posting.google.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118083 Eric Smith wrote: > blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) writes: >> Roger Amidon's (didn't he pop up later, in connection with an Epson >> computer?) > > The QX10. I've always wanted to play with Valdocs - doesn't seem like anyone's ever done a QX10 emulator though... :( Since they seemed to sell approximately zero machines in the UK getting hold of real hardware's pretty tough too! pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:25:46 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118087 Sam Yorko wrote: > Whoops, a rusty synapse just fired. > > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, > it ran at an astounding 11MHz. > Heading offtopic but on a related theme, ISTR a company called Datavue who announced a 386-clone CPU built out of mainframe-like technology in the late 80s - anyone got any more detailed memories? Was this just vapourware? I think the company had a background in doing portables.... pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: "Dave Bloodgood" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 10:35:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.4.28.164 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news2.west.cox.net 1033209323 68.4.28.164 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 06:35:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 06:35:23 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!west.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news2.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118081 The IMLAC PDS-1 that I used to own was built from 74-series TTL. The 16 bit wide ALU was 4 of the 181's in series. dave "Let them have the spam" wrote in message news:mgs9pustm0hft9alk4rclokf32b4d46j76@4ax.com... > On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:43:35 +0200, "x" wrote: > > >Hi > > > >In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > >and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > >ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > Microprocessor I doubt. > > > >Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these > >components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. > > The processor from a DCC-116 uses a 74181 or 74S181 as it's ALU. I > had to pull the prints to find out. I had forgotten what a pain it is > to read those things. :-) > > > -- > Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com > To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. > (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### Message-ID: <3D95CA75.82E0DB10@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1033219829 12.237.69.162 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:30:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:30:29 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:30:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118105 dwight elvey wrote: > > "x" wrote in message news:... > > Hi > > > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > > > Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these > > components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. > > Hi > While many seem to mention various computers that used them, > they didn't answer your question. No, there were no microprocessor > based on 74 TTL chips. The concept of microprocessor indicated that > the logic is not wired at the chip edge. All of the examples given > are not microprocessors. This technology was more properly called > bit slice. When the process of making microprocessors faster > happened, these all because obsolete. The I/O and interconnect > speeds limited anything that was wired outside of the parts. > That being said, many microprocessors were emulated with > ttl parts as design experiments. I know of at least the 8080, > 6800 and 8051 being done this way for learning purposes. > But now if you are going to emulate a microprocessor, you typically do it with an FPGA and some Verilog code. I understand that a board full of TTL chips is *not* a microprocessor. 99.9% of the people today have *no* idea that a board of TTL chips could be a computer CPU...without a microprocessor on it. Many very interesting things discussed on are obsolete. Much of the knowledge gained from these things is *not* obsolete, though IMHO. And dreaming up these projects with TTL is a heck of a lot of fun!!! (IMHO) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D95CAFF.68B18C6E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1033219967 12.237.69.162 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:32:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:32:47 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:32:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118113 Pete Fenelon wrote: > > Sam Yorko wrote: > > Whoops, a rusty synapse just fired. > > > > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, > > it ran at an astounding 11MHz. > > > > Heading offtopic but on a related theme, ISTR a company called Datavue > who announced a 386-clone CPU built out of mainframe-like technology > in the late 80s - anyone got any more detailed memories? Was this > just vapourware? I think the company had a background in doing > portables.... > Perhaps they were building the first mainframe portable. ;-) Reminds me of a cartoon I saw about the first mainframe mouse. One guy was *riding* the mouse, which looked like a motor scooter with a wire out the back. The other guy was saying: "A little more...a little more...oops, back up a little!!!" -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Reply-To: "Steve Thomas" From: "Steve Thomas" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:39:00 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.93.30.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1033238314 65.93.30.68 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:38:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:38:34 EDT Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!torn!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118158 I have one somewhere that I bought surplus about 20 years ago. The original card is Multibus and is attached in the same plane to another card that converts it to S100. No documentation unfortunately but IIRC the clock is 5 MHz. "Eric Smith" wrote in message news:qhwup6pyod.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com... > Sam Yorko writes: > > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, > > it ran at an astounding 11MHz. > > There were two for which I've seen data sheets. One from Signetics > using the 3001/3002 bit slice components (second-source of Intel), and > one from AMD using the 2901 and 2909 (or was it 2911?). > > Anybody got one of these, or the documentation? ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 28 Sep 2002 19:13:47 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118137 Philip Nasadowski wrote: > In article <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>, > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: >> Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a >> 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system >> where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all >> connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, >> showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had >> been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... > Woah, people *do* in fact build homebrew computers out of 74XX logic? > neat! An introductory digital logic class here has students build a 74xx-based CPU which lacks a control unit. After the next class, one should be able to come up with a control unit, main bus, and memory. Would using an integrated ALU be cheating? -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csubak.edu ###### Message-ID: <3D9601D5.461E9564@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 19:27:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1033241276 168.191.124.54 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 12:27:56 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 12:27:56 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!208.49.253.98!newsfeed.news2me.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118136 Philip Nasadowski wrote: > In article <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>, > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > > Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a > > 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system > > where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all > > connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, > > showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had > > been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... I think this home brew machine was called the "spider". I recall the cover but am away from my Byte collection at the moment or I would give you the issue date. > Woah, people *do* in fact build homebrew computers out of 74XX logic? > neat! They did at one time....... Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:03:14 +0100 Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3433.bonobo.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1033243025 531 217.134.61.105 (28 Sep 2002 19:57:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2002 19:57:05 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118150 "Dave" wrote in message news:an4v1b$k6ib$1@hades.csu.net... > Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > In article <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>, > > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > >> Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a > >> 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system > >> where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all > >> connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, > >> showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had > >> been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... > > > Woah, people *do* in fact build homebrew computers out of 74XX logic? > > neat! > > An introductory digital logic class here has students build a 74xx-based > CPU which lacks a control unit. After the next class, one should be able > to come up with a control unit, main bus, and memory. Would using an > integrated ALU be cheating? To be honest I don't think it should be classed as cheating... Especially given that using a look-up table stored in a memory of some form as an ALU is an old trick... Cheers, Rupert ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:29:29 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-228.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!216.148.52.16.MISMATCH!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118146 In article , eric-no-spam-for- me@brouhaha.com says... > Sam Yorko writes: > > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, > > it ran at an astounding 11MHz. > > There were two for which I've seen data sheets. One from Signetics > using the 3001/3002 bit slice components (second-source of Intel), and > one from AMD using the 2901 and 2909 (or was it 2911?). > > Anybody got one of these, or the documentation? Why do I have the vague recollection of an 8088 machine emulated with discrete ECL? -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:57:26 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118152 J. Clarke wrote: > Why do I have the vague recollection of an 8088 machine emulated with > discrete ECL? > This *could* be the "mainframe-like 386" I was talking about elsewhere in the thread...? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 23:08:20 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-2020.aardvark.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1033250530 6713 217.134.7.228 (28 Sep 2002 22:02:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2002 22:02:10 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118151 "J. Clarke" wrote in message news:an56v5014l5@enews1.newsguy.com... > In article , eric-no-spam-for- > me@brouhaha.com says... > > Sam Yorko writes: > > > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, > > > it ran at an astounding 11MHz. > > > > There were two for which I've seen data sheets. One from Signetics > > using the 3001/3002 bit slice components (second-source of Intel), and > > one from AMD using the 2901 and 2909 (or was it 2911?). > > > > Anybody got one of these, or the documentation? > > Why do I have the vague recollection of an 8088 machine emulated with > discrete ECL? My immediate thought is that you have a sick mind. :) Can't help wondering if that was a one-off student project or some kind of technology demonstrator. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Kelli Halliburton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.57.51.178 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 1033274528 ST000 65.57.51.178 (Sun, 29 Sep 2002 00:42:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 00:42:08 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: Q[R_PJSCOXTAB\X[WBIFJ[AF\CT@SWPHDY^L\UQHWIWDUWYADNVOPCKZBL\NX_KHV^GY[KVMG^ZPNHSCZNS[^UXFJVWYXVXKBH[XRWWBBDTN@AX\JSBVH]_@T\EKJHBMZ\_WZJFNRY]YWKSPED_U^NC\HSZ\WS[KEAYI@DO@\K@BP\LD[\GTMPLDFVU]ASJM Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 04:42:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!7115ad8a!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118164 "Pete Fenelon" wrote in message news:upc9e6e20le74a@corp.supernews.com... > J. Clarke wrote: > > Why do I have the vague recollection of an 8088 machine emulated with > > discrete ECL? > > > > This *could* be the "mainframe-like 386" I was talking about elsewhere > in the thread...? The custom graphics and sound chips used in the Hi-Toro Lorraine micro were originally developed as wire-wrapped boards of TTL logic. This would have been around 1984 or so. Probably too recent for anyone in this newsgroup to care about. ;) Speaking of which -- I think I might have left out the ;) in an earlier post about the WinXP service pack thread. Oops. ###### Message-ID: <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:50:23 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1033275082 23172 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118189 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > "x" wrote in message news:P3_k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... > > Hi > > > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > Do you mean, did anyone ever design a microprocessor whose individual > component features used 74 TTL family architecture? > > Chip gurus, how about it? > > Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a > 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system > where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all > connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, > showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had > been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... > I remember that cover, might even have it somewhere... On 7400 TTL machine designs:- From August 1974 to August 1975, "Electronics Australia" magazine presented a computer construction project designed by Jamieson Rowe, based on 7400 series discrete logic. It was called "EDUC-8" and it's architecture was heavily influenced by the PDP-8. So it was a serial machine, and therefore did not use a 74181 but rather a 7480 adder. There were over 100 chips on 7 PCB's, plus some more on a few external peripheral gizmos. It was intended as an educational system, (pronounce it's name) and I actually built one, but it's long been lost. This machine was truly piss-weak, it was an 8 bit system and addressed a *maximum* of 256 bytes! But it was fun, and probably the first and only magazine computer project in the world that used discrete logic. "Radio-Electronics" beat it to be the outright first by a few weeks, with another project based on the 8008; but that was a microprocessor. I still have the construction articles reprinted as a book of about 80 pages, I'll scan it in one day. Rob Storey ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 29 Sep 2002 08:30:05 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vpn-129-156-96-12.emea.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1033288205 13189 129.156.96.12 (29 Sep 2002 08:30:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 2002 08:30:05 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeed.online.be!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118199 In article , "x" writes: > Hi > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? Newbury Labs 7002 terminal used the adder (181 if memory serves) to move the cursor to the next column. I had a terminal which went wrong and as you typed across the screen, cursor went "skip one, back one, skip one, back one" etc. This turned out to be the adder which had died. I was somewhat amazed at this logic being present as the terminal had an 8080 microprocessor in it. My guess is that the part of the circuit which had the adder came from an earlier simpler terminjal and they hadn't bothered to subsume it into the more intelligent part which was probably a later edition. I recall some Xerox word processor workstations which had their processors built from decrete TTL. Never looked in detail, but I would imagine they used these components. BTW - a processor built of descrete TTL at this level would not in my view be called a microprocessor - that was what you got when you integrated the separate functions at that level onto a single chip, bit-slice processors being probably the first step along that way. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 29 Sep 2002 08:35:27 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vpn-129-156-96-12.emea.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1033288527 13189 129.156.96.12 (29 Sep 2002 08:35:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Sep 2002 08:35:27 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!oleane.net!oleane!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118198 In article , David R Brooks writes: > Another commercial machine using 74181: GEC 2050 In which case, the GEC 4080 probably did too as it was designed at the same time. The 4080 used bit slice processors, but back in 1970 they were likely rather primitive. Later on, the whole range switched over to using AMD 2901's, but they weren't available when the 4080 shipped. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 29 Sep 2002 13:32:10 GMT Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-200-77.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1033306330 news.dial.pipex.com 8505 62.190.200.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!news.powertech.no!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118172 On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:43:35 +0200, x wrote: >Hi > >In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 >and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an >ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > >Maybe this sounds a bit off-topic, but because there is a good chance these >components were used in old computer systems, I tought I could try it here. I meant to post this earlier, but forgot. See: http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/piscedu2.htm -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### Message-ID: <3D985506.26AB@home.com> From: Kenneth Casselman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <43258753.0209271551.5f2a1bb5@posting.google.com> <3D95089C.8612EAF9@computer.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:40:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.100.64.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1033393239 24.100.64.193 (Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:40:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:40:39 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118312 Al Kossow wrote: > > In article , Eric Smith > wrote: > > > Sam Yorko writes: > > > Anybody remember the commercially available 8080 emulated in TTL? IIRC, > > > it ran at an astounding 11MHz. > > > > There were two for which I've seen data sheets. One from Signetics > > using the 3001/3002 bit slice components (second-source of Intel), and > > one from AMD using the 2901 and 2909 (or was it 2911?). > > > > Anybody got one of these, or the documentation? > > The AMD app note that describes a 2901 based 8080 can be > found at www.spies.com/aek/pdf/amd/AMPUB-064_8080sim.pdf > The note also has the microcode listing. Hey, thanks again Al! First the documentation for CP/M-8000, and now the AMD ap note for an 8080 emulator. If anyone has any documentation for the Signetics emulator I'd love to see that too. Ken ###### From: tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:11:20 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A series networking Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.63.212.94 X-Trace: trsvr.tr.unisys.com 1033405880 13547 192.63.212.94 (30 Sep 2002 17:11:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tr.unisys.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:11:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!bbnews1.unisys.com!trsvr.tr.unisys.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118289 In article <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>, dquebbeman@ixnayamspayacm.org says... > >"x" wrote in message = >news:P3_k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... >> Hi >>=20 >> In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, = >381, 382 >> and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to = >construct an >> ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > >Do you mean, did anyone ever design a microprocessor whose individual >component features used 74 TTL family architecture? > >Chip gurus, how about it? > >Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a=20 >19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system >where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all >connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, >showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had >been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... > >That rat's nest was said to still be functional after that... > >-dq > Close, it was built by Steve Ciarcia (sp?), and it was an 8008 based computer. - Tim ###### From: "Bevis" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:31:34 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing Lines: 17 X-Trace: sv3-IcX1z0jB41JRLD1mzl5C+8rUKNty6b9FWYPSr1y3WkEIaWv7rzUaDxD0kqmZyMuhoIHKBhF1ax27Ymb!vw4efqNZ6JXW+r6tHOJxwpbUFWctUgXa/08FT5PSjZd9NK3e9B1E1YTy1+JCA/MRdB1l0EhJoFVb!Gq/q X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:31:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118333 IIRC, Motorola built a 6800 from about 300 msi TTL chips BEFORE they built the 6800 chip. "Philip Nasadowski" wrote in message news:nasadowsk-B97A08.14470429092002@241.in-addr.mrf.va.news.rcn.net... > In article , > andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: > > > BTW - a processor built of descrete TTL at this level would not in my > > view be called a microprocessor > > How about 'miniprocessor'? > -- > To email me, change 'usermale' to 'usermail' > ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:56:38 +0200 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1033419398.558386@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1033419398 01 22597 M92zbVhVSKA9kj 020930 20:56:38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #124 Cache-Post-Path: ds9.klebsch.de!mario@ds9.klebsch.de X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118338 tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) writes: >In article <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>, >dquebbeman@ixnayamspayacm.org says... >> >>"x" wrote in message = >>news:P3_k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... >>> Hi >>> In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, >>> 381, 382 and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been >>> used to construct an ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL >>> chips? >>Do you mean, did anyone ever design a microprocessor whose >>individual component features used 74 TTL family architecture? I have had a PDP11/05 GT40, where the CPU was build of 74xx-chips. It required two full size PCBs (IIRC 6 Q-bus PCB edge connectors next to each other), one did contain all the data paths, registers, ALU,... the other one was mainly made of PROMs, which seemed to contain the micro program. I had full schematics of that machine and the full PROM listing, too. I gave away that machine some weeks ago. 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:46:46 -0700 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <1033419398.558386@ds9.klebsch.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: il0502a-dhcp245.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1033422395 29568 17.205.24.245 (30 Sep 2002 21:46:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:46:35 +0000 (UTC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.powertech.no!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!uio.no!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!il0502a-dhcp245.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118354 In article <1033419398.558386@ds9.klebsch.de>, mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) wrote: > I gave away that machine some weeks ago. > That's unfortunate. The GT-40 was one machine that Gwen Bell wished the Computer Museum had. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: From: Arthur Chance <{spamtrap}@qeng-ho.org> Organization: would be a fine thing to have Reply-To: Arthur Chance Date: 30 Sep 2002 17:04:35 +0100 Message-ID: <87k7l3foq4.fsf@erewhon.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Oct 2002 03:00:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.237.124.135 X-Trace: 1033441238 news.gradwell.net 66790 qeng-ho/193.237.124.135 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!lon1-news.nildram.net!news-peer.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118399 hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: [74 TTL computers] > In addition to all the others, trhere was a popular electronics project > that built a 4 bit computer out of common parts like these. It could > address all 16 words of its memory :) Didn't one of the earliest CACMs (circa 1959 maybe?) have a design for a 2 bit "computer" made out of cardboard and rubber bands? -- What was it that sliced bread was the greatest thing since? ###### Reply-To: "George Gonzalez" From: "George Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.118.121.151 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1033477369 24.118.121.151 (Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:02:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:02:49 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:02:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118420 The HP 5360A "Computing Counter" has a full CPU built out of early 74xx TTL chips. LOTS of chips. Not a single PAL, EROM, or PROM. Not a very sophisticated instruction set (i.e.: no load constant instructions except for load 0 or load 1, jump instruction goes to address 00 only, only one subroutine, but it does have 12-digit FP registers) Even weirder, the square root instruction actually calls a subroutine, the code for which is combinatorially generated with random logic! ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 1 Oct 2002 07:28:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0210010628.1f807d00@posting.google.com> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.188.167 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033482524 16492 127.0.0.1 (1 Oct 2002 14:28:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2002 14:28:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118408 tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) wrote in message news:... > In article <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>, > dquebbeman@ixnayamspayacm.org says... > > > >Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a=20 > >19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system > >where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all > >connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, > >showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had > >been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... > > > >That rat's nest was said to still be functional after that... > > > >-dq > > > Close, it was built by Steve Ciarcia (sp?), and > it was an 8008 based computer. > > - Tim No, read back up the thread. I've already provided the date of that cover on Byte, and it sure wasn't made by Steve Ciarcia. Michael ###### From: stegeman.h@12move.nl (Henk Stegeman) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 1 Oct 2002 07:42:47 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 39 Message-ID: <7980590c.0210010642.1354d210@posting.google.com> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 134.146.0.27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1033483367 17357 127.0.0.1 (1 Oct 2002 14:42:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2002 14:42:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118405 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote in message news:<3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com>... > "x" wrote in message > news:P3 k9.137488$H6.11025817@zwoll1.home.nl... > > Hi > > > > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, > 381, 382 > > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to > construct an > > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > > Do you mean, did anyone ever design a microprocessor whose individual > component features used 74 TTL family architecture? Please see: http://www.siconic.com/computers/VCF%202.0e%20-%20Henk%20Stegeman%20Exhibit.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/VCF%202.0e%20-%20Henk%20Stegeman's%20HJS22%20Homebrew%20Computer%201.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/VCF%202.0e%20-%20Henk%20Stegeman's%20HJS22%20Homebrew%20Computer%202.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/VCF%202.0e%20-%20Henk%20Stegeman's%20HJS22%20Homebrew%20Computer%203.jpg http://www.siconic.com/computers/VCF%202.0e%20-%20Henk%20Stegeman's%20HJS22%20Homebrew%20Computer%204.jpg These are pictures of the TTL machine in built in 1976. This system is working. Regards Henk > > Chip gurus, how about it? > > Don Tarbell used to have some kind of home-brewed system in a > 19-inch relay rack... and one old BYTE cover showed a system > where each 74 TTL chip was on a separate carrier board, all > connected by a myriad of wires... the cover photo, however, > showed the way the computer looked after the owner's cat had > been sleeping amidst the wiring, then got startled... > > That rat's nest was said to still be functional after that... > > -dq ###### Message-ID: <3D99B4A4.FB445299@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:48:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1033483689 168.191.124.23 (Tue, 01 Oct 2002 07:48:09 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 07:48:09 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118364 Bevis wrote: > IIRC, Motorola built a 6800 from about 300 msi TTL chips BEFORE they built > the 6800 chip. I remember seeing a photo of this leading off an article in some magazine. IIRC it was several wire wrap cards. Unfortunately, I don't recall the magazine. It might have been IEEE Spectrum. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:52:06 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A series networking Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <6447bcd3.0210010628.1f807d00@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.63.212.94 X-Trace: trsvr.tr.unisys.com 1033494726 9405 192.63.212.94 (1 Oct 2002 17:52:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tr.unisys.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:52:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!bbnews1.unisys.com!trsvr.tr.unisys.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118430 In article <6447bcd3.0210010628.1f807d00@posting.google.com>, blackm00@cam.org says... > >tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) wrote in message news:> Close, it was built by Steve Ciarcia (sp?), and >> it was an 8008 based computer. >> >> - Tim > >No, read back up the thread. I've already provided the date of >that cover on Byte, and it sure wasn't made by Steve Ciarcia. > > Michael I'll try to dig up my copy and confirm. - Tim ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 05 Oct 02 13:48:33 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <443.43T1656T8285217@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-710.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118667 In article andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) writes: >I wonder how many students today have even heard of front porch >and back porch? ;-) That leads me to wonder how many people talk about color burst and don't know where it goes... -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 09:46:46 GMT Organization: Aceware Programming Pty Ltd Message-ID: <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.54.231 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1033814487 23046 203.59.54.231 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118668 >On 7400 TTL machine designs:- >From August 1974 to August 1975, "Electronics Australia" magazine >presented a computer construction project designed by Jamieson Rowe, >based on 7400 series discrete logic. It was called "EDUC-8" and it's >architecture was heavily influenced by the PDP-8. So it was a serial >machine, and therefore did not use a 74181 but rather a 7480 adder. >There were over 100 chips on 7 PCB's, plus some more on a few external >peripheral gizmos. > I haven't looked further down the thread to see if anyone else has said this yet - but you can still get every PCB that appeared in a project in Electronics Australia from a company called RCS www.cia.com.au/rcsradio I ordered the two main boards from them about 5 years ago but came to a halt when I figured out that the edge connector sockets on their own were going to cost me $140. They were a very coarse staggered connection style - I am sure that back in 1975 - these were very common and cost only a few dollars each - but now they are very expensive. I still entertain fantasies of ordering the complete set and completing the project. Tony Epton ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:31:50 +0200 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 30 Message-ID: <1033817509.74122@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1033817510 05 12395 avYNbISbSVAqIL 021005 11:31:50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #124 Cache-Post-Path: ds9.klebsch.de!mario@ds9.klebsch.de X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118648 aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) writes: >>On 7400 TTL machine designs:- >>From August 1974 to August 1975, "Electronics Australia" magazine >>presented a computer construction project designed by Jamieson Rowe, >>based on 7400 series discrete logic. It was called "EDUC-8" and it's >>architecture was heavily influenced by the PDP-8. So it was a serial >>machine, and therefore did not use a 74181 but rather a 7480 adder. >>There were over 100 chips on 7 PCB's, plus some more on a few external >>peripheral gizmos. >> >I haven't looked further down the thread to see if anyone else has >said this yet - but you can still get every PCB that appeared in a >project in Electronics Australia from a company called RCS >www.cia.com.au/rcsradio >I ordered the two main boards from them about 5 years ago but came to >a halt when I figured out that the edge connector sockets on their own >were going to cost me $140. Perhaps it is worth to re-route the PCBs to use todays connectors. Ordering a prototype PCB is not that expensice (www.pcb-pool.com). 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 5 Oct 2002 17:11:52 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: vpn-129-156-96-31.emea.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1033837912 29639 129.156.96.31 (5 Oct 2002 17:11:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Oct 2002 17:11:52 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118675 In article <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au>, aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) writes: > > I ordered the two main boards from them about 5 years ago but came to > a halt when I figured out that the edge connector sockets on their own > were going to cost me $140. They were a very coarse staggered > connection style - I am sure that back in 1975 - these were very > common and cost only a few dollars each - but now they are very > expensive. I designed and built my own Z80 machine in 1981. Being a poor student at the time, I was very cost concious. Whilst I didn't mind spending money on descrete TTL chips, I objected to spending twice as much on edge connectors and the like, which is what they cost at the time. Result was that I made up my own. I etched the finger-edge connectors on PCBs, but I bought the sockets and a long (and as I recall, very expensive) piece of veroboard to make my backplane (it was most of the width of a 19" rack unit). The system worked, but if you sneezed or someone slammed a door elsewhere in the building, it would crash;-) Reseating the boards fixed it for 10 minutes or so. Eventually I tinned the edge connectors, and then it would run for a few hours. Still, I learned a lot from the excercise, one point being that skimping on parts which are essential to the reliability doesn't work, and another being that if you design your own backplane, you have to design your own everything to go in the computer. BTW, one of the cards was a front panel controller, and for the front panel, I used the switches from a PDP8 (keytops swapped to group keys in 4's rather than 3's) which allowed me to start/ stop the microprocessor, and to read/write the store and i/o buses. Before I actually built the CPU card, I built the video card, using a 6845 (or was it a 6545 - they were very similar except one had a light pen register and the other didn't). Programming that from the front panel initially was like magic. You started with a TV displaying nothing recognisable. As you programmed all the 6845 registers by hand (which took a few minutes from the front panel using binary switches), the image slowly became recognisable on the TV, initially with the horizontal or vertical frames scrolling round, or multiple images across the screen. As you got the last few parameters in, it would finally lock on to a stable readable image of the video RAM. I wonder how many students today have even heard of front porch and back porch? ;-) -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### Message-ID: <3D9F3C37.3C128DD1@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <1033817509.74122@ds9.klebsch.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1033838779 12.237.69.162 (Sat, 05 Oct 2002 17:26:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 17:26:19 GMT Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 17:26:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118682 Mario Klebsch wrote: > > aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) writes: > > >>On 7400 TTL machine designs:- > >>From August 1974 to August 1975, "Electronics Australia" magazine > >>presented a computer construction project designed by Jamieson Rowe, > >>based on 7400 series discrete logic. It was called "EDUC-8" and it's > >>architecture was heavily influenced by the PDP-8. So it was a serial > >>machine, and therefore did not use a 74181 but rather a 7480 adder. > >>There were over 100 chips on 7 PCB's, plus some more on a few external > >>peripheral gizmos. > >> > >I haven't looked further down the thread to see if anyone else has > >said this yet - but you can still get every PCB that appeared in a > >project in Electronics Australia from a company called RCS > >www.cia.com.au/rcsradio > > >I ordered the two main boards from them about 5 years ago but came to > >a halt when I figured out that the edge connector sockets on their own > >were going to cost me $140. > > Perhaps it is worth to re-route the PCBs to use todays > connectors. Ordering a prototype PCB is not that expensice > (www.pcb-pool.com). > Well, this covers Australia and Europe, but what about the U. S. of A.??? I could pay more in shipping to get the board from these suppliers...than the board itself would cost!!! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 20:40:50 +0100 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.134.29.11 X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 1033846480 14190 217.134.29.11 (5 Oct 2002 19:34:40 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Oct 2002 19:34:40 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118670 "Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message news:ann6go$su7$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... [SNIP] > to a stable readable image of the video RAM. I wonder how many > students today have even heard of front porch and back porch? ;-) Not many, but I imagine that people who tweak XFree86 setups will know... The README for doing that is a good read, certainly beat the scribbles in my notebook from playing with 6845s and G332s. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Philip Nasadowski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 22:02:17 -0400 Organization: Biker/metalhead from hell!!! Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <443.43T1656T8285217@kltpzyxm.invalid> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbFjXU1DA8oTIDEgV25TR3I6K420uKjXjJsfbZivIHxREZayS/a1j/P X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Oct 2002 02:06:09 GMT X-Harley: '99 FXDWG User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nasadowsk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118706 In article <443.43T1656T8285217@kltpzyxm.invalid>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: > That leads me to wonder how many people talk about color burst and > don't know where it goes... Right on the back porch of the horizontal pulse, IIRC. You can see it in it's 8 cycle glory on a scope if you just tap onto the burst transformer. At least, I do with my RCA CTC-16 (60's vintage :) RCA had a really bonkers setup for getting the burst and L.O. synched, and also the color killer. GE figured out a really simple alternative - simply wack the 3.58mhz xtal with the burst, and let it resonate like a tunning fork, amplify it, and feed it to the demods. This allowed them to chop out an amazing amount of circuitry out of the Portacolor... -- To email me, change 'usermale' to 'usermail' ###### From: John Holden Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:04:53 +1000 Organization: University of Sydney, Australia Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> References: Reply-To: johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Host: psychraid.psych.usyd.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au 1034060693 9627 129.78.83.10 (8 Oct 2002 07:04:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2002 07:04:53 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; OSF1 V5.1 alpha) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.mountaincable.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118869 > In wich applications are the ALU's in the 74 TTL series (181, 281, 381, 382 > and maybe a couple of others) used? Have they ever been used to construct an > ALU in a microprocessor based on 74 TTL chips? > Most of the unibus PDP-11 used them:- PDP11/05/10/35/40/45/50/55/60/70 all used them ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:49:30 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@dhcp-171-69-75-3.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.160.102.MISMATCH!newsfeed.eunet.at!newsfeed.austria.eu.net!news.netway.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118941 Does anyone make and sell really small scale integration functions like 4 gates in a package? Who? To whom? What does "whom" use them for? Thanks JKA -- "It's difficult to conceive of a harder job" than selling software. "Imagine making your living selling broken stuff -- routinely promising features that don't exist," he said. "Only a bunch of nincompoops like us would let them get away with it." - Jerry Gregoire, former CIO at Dell Computer Corp. and PepsiCo Inc. ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 10 Oct 2002 02:29:05 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118953 J Ahlstrom wrote: > Does anyone make and sell really small scale integration > functions like 4 gates in a package? > Who? To whom? What does "whom" use them for? Hmm.. Only 4 gates on a chip. That could be any of the wide array of typical discrete gate chips or perhaps a chip containing a single latch. -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csubak.edu ###### From: Let them have the spam Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 21:39:44 -0500 Organization: Not Really! Lines: 20 Message-ID: <20q9qucqvukmpaje3me6reln8vpc21scqd@4ax.com> References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tcr213.dynip.ripco.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: e250.ripco.com 1034217597 21679 209.100.226.213 (10 Oct 2002 02:39:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ripco.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 02:39:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!localhost!gail.ripco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118996 On 10 Oct 2002 02:29:05 GMT, Dave wrote: >J Ahlstrom wrote: >> Does anyone make and sell really small scale integration >> functions like 4 gates in a package? > >> Who? To whom? What does "whom" use them for? > >Hmm.. Only 4 gates on a chip. That could be any of the wide array of >typical discrete gate chips or perhaps a chip containing a single latch. I don't have the numbers handy, however there were quad AND, NAND, OR, and NOR gates in the 7400 series. Inverters usually came in hex packages. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage. (Enteract can keep the spam, they are gone anyway) ###### From: Dave Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 10 Oct 2002 06:08:06 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> <20q9qucqvukmpaje3me6reln8vpc21scqd@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990216 ("Styrofoam") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118945 Let them have the spam wrote: > On 10 Oct 2002 02:29:05 GMT, Dave wrote: >>J Ahlstrom wrote: >>> Does anyone make and sell really small scale integration >>> functions like 4 gates in a package? >> >>> Who? To whom? What does "whom" use them for? >> >>Hmm.. Only 4 gates on a chip. That could be any of the wide array of >>typical discrete gate chips or perhaps a chip containing a single latch. > I don't have the numbers handy, however there were quad AND, NAND, OR, > and NOR gates in the 7400 series. Inverters usually came in hex > packages. That was the point I was making. I'm unclear on what would prompt such a question. -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csubak.edu ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 10 Oct 2002 09:51:56 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1034268716 2975 127.0.0.1 (10 Oct 2002 16:51:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2002 16:51:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118994 J Ahlstrom wrote in message news:<3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com>... > Does anyone make and sell really small scale integration > functions like 4 gates in a package? > > Who? To whom? What does "whom" use them for? Either I'm misinterpreting your question, of this isn't the same J Ahlstrom who has been posting to alt.folklore.computers for many years, or you forgot your smiley :-). I cannot readily find the reference on the TI website (thus qualifying this for the "F" part of AFC), but I believe that TI has committed themselves to manufacturing SSI 7400 series TTL logic parts pretty much forever. Of course, I do not speak for Texas Instruments in any authority at all; does anyone have more details about this vague memory of mine? Of course, in the past few years the tiny surface-mount one-gate-per-package market has really grown big (while the parts themselves continue to shrink!) Tim. ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 10 Oct 2002 11:00:21 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 132 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0210101000.47696de@posting.google.com> References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.19.188.122 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1034272821 8451 127.0.0.1 (10 Oct 2002 18:00:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2002 18:00:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118986 J Ahlstrom wrote in message news:<3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com>... > Does anyone make and sell really small scale integration > functions like 4 gates in a package? > > Who? To whom? What does "whom" use them for? > > Thanks > > JKA Are you trying to make a joke? In the beginning, electronic computers were made with vaccuum tubes, big and bulky. When transistors became practical, they were used to make computers; you still needed an awful lot of them, but they were smaller and used up less power. The next step was integrated circuits. In the digital realm, there was no choice but small scale integration, gates and flip-flops. There were a couple of generations of logic families (RTL then DTL, and likely some obscure ones), where there wasn't much beyond that, and which lasted a relatively short time. Then in the mid-sixties, TTL came along, in the form of the 74XX family that this thread started out about. Again, these were originally just gates and flip-flops, but later counters, decoders, latches came along. As IC techniques improved, the integration got better, and the line was added to, adding things like adders and oscillators and practically the sky's the limit. Back then, you could get a 7400 quad nand gate. You can more or less still get one today, in the very same pinout. Need an exclusive-or gate? A 7486 will give you four of them. A 7474 is a dual type-D flip-flop; a 7475 will give you double that number (assuming you can accept some of the control pins controlling all the individual flip-flops), and saw a lot of use as a latch between a counter and a BCD to 7-segment readout decoder (a few choices there, including the 7447) in frequency counters. I said "more or less" because it might be hard to get that quad nand gate in the same straight TTL format. Not all that long after TTL came along, CMOS hit the scene, at first relatively slow (say 1MHz versus the 20MHz of TTL from the same time period), and TTL evolved too. There were schemes to use less current (which slowed it down), schemes to speed it up (which made it draw more current), schemes to speed it up but use less current, and lots and lots of schemes to speed it up. With time, CMOS with it's low current requirements, was folded into the series (actually, 2 different times), giving the same functions and pinouts. So finding a 7400 might be hard at this point; I have no idea if they are still being manufactured. I wouldn't use one at this point, because later variations with faster speed and lower current (at the same time) are available nice and cheap. So you could buy a 74LS00, or some later variation. Or a CMOS version, 74HC00. Or one that is much faster, 74F00. The variations almost seem endless. But the core number remains with the function, and over thirty years later, the pinouts are the same. If changes were implemented, they were given a new number (so really large numbers came later). So over the years, the same function, say an 8-bit tri-state output latch, like a 74373, might make a separate appearance with a higher number, the difference being which pins go to which inputs and outputs (making layout easier in some cases). Ironically, the parts that weren't implemented in the better schemes, and the parts that may be hard to get nowadays, are the more specialized devices. I don't think BCD to Nixie decoders/drivers were implemented in better than straight TTL (ie 7441) but then since other display devices became dominant over Nixie tubes, finding one might be difficult at this point, and might have been difficult for some years or decades. But unless it used one of these devices that didn't see much use thirty years ago, you could take a circuit from 1972 (or even earlier) that used 74-series ICs, buy the parts, and build it today. Just keep the same sub-family (ie 74LS or 74HC) for each of the ICs. Or, learn enough so you could use straight TTL for the hard to get ICs, and mix in some later sub-family for the rest. Since it would mostly be logic (only a handful of the ICs would require analog components, such as single-shot multivibrators and voltage controlled oscillators), virtually nothing else would have to be fiddled with. Who uses them? Everyone. Why would they use them? Because they are constant parts. They were used to make computers originally, slapping the gates and flip-flops together to come up with more intricate functions. When microprocessors came along, they still dominated the boards, because you needed them as the glue to hold things together. With time, various functions did migrate to higher density ICs, sometimes common parts, sometimes custom parts for a specific piece of equipment. But you'd still see those same TTL parts (or later variations) because it was simpler to throw in a few "discrete" gates, or they ran out of space in the ICs, or needed a last minute revision, or whatever. If you're making something in enough quantities, it's worth the cost of developing a specialized IC. But if you are prototyping, or building something that would see limited production (or it's one-off, like the hobbyist would make or some experiment would require) then you'd use whatever ICs were available (nobody would build up a UART at this point from logic gates, unless it was a learning experience) but you'd likely use a lot of these simple logic ICs. I've got my 28.8K internal modem in front of me, as a sample of a relatively recent device that I don't have to take a cover off of to look at. It's got three 74-series ICs on it, a quad exclusive-or, an 8-input NAND gate, and an 8-bit bus transceiver. Most of the circuitry is large scale integration, in two ICs, but they still needed these "old parts" (they are all later sub-families) to finish off the design. Of course, the TTL was used in a lot more things than just computers. Lots of things that we see as common place today, digital clocks, radios with digital tuning, digital thermometers, and lots else, were originally built with TTL or a later sub-family. It was only when there was a common need (or common desire) for such equipment that it was worth implementing the function in a specific IC. And while I can't picture a CD-player being made with the 74-series, the original might have been breadboarded with them. Certainly, the 74-series made the digital world viable. (I've ignored an early really fast logic family, ECL, because it rarely showed up in hobby circuits. About the time that TTL was running at 20MHz, ECL was at 100 MHz and higher. As this thread indicates, ECL might have been the choice for building computers out of discrete logic gates.) Michael ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:02:24 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3DA5C0B0.EBECDC06@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> <20q9qucqvukmpaje3me6reln8vpc21scqd@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@dhcp-171-69-75-3.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118942 Dave wrote: > Let them have the spam wrote: > > On 10 Oct 2002 02:29:05 GMT, Dave wrote: > > >>J Ahlstrom wrote: > >>> Does anyone make and sell really small scale integration > >>> functions like 4 gates in a package? > >> > >>> Who? To whom? What does "whom" use them for? > >> > >>Hmm.. Only 4 gates on a chip. That could be any of the wide array of > >>typical discrete gate chips or perhaps a chip containing a single latch. > > > I don't have the numbers handy, however there were quad AND, NAND, OR, > > and NOR gates in the 7400 series. Inverters usually came in hex > > packages. > > That was the point I was making. I'm unclear on what would prompt such a > question. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi@cs.csubak.edu I know that many folk used to make roughly these kinds of things. I wondered if they still do, and who buys them for what uses. ;) ;) ;) JKA -- "It's difficult to conceive of a harder job" than selling software. "Imagine making your living selling broken stuff -- routinely promising features that don't exist," he said. "Only a bunch of nincompoops like us would let them get away with it." - Jerry Gregoire, former CIO at Dell Computer Corp. and PepsiCo Inc. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 11 Oct 02 10:09:25 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <667.49T1252T6094685@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-082.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119059 In article shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: >In a similar re-use, one of the better PowerPC processors is numbered >simply "7400". Also a Motorola product, as I understand. > >I'm waiting for the 6L6 processor myself. And we cannot forget the >two-on-a-die version, which I predict will be called the 12AU7 :-) But they don't have any heaters! I'm waiting for the 0Z4 myself. On second thought, given the power dissipation of new chips... -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: Philip Nasadowski Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:39:54 -0400 Organization: Biker/metalhead from hell!!! Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbLj3sYH9Y47HPLQuIUjwEJJEL0HO4cjLGRTUWIHaDHDdJIGL+eR2SX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 00:44:10 GMT X-Harley: '99 FXDWG User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!uio.no!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.98.3.206!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!nasadowsk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119060 In article , shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > I cannot readily find the reference on the TI website (thus > qualifying this for the "F" part of AFC), but I believe that TI > has committed themselves to manufacturing SSI 7400 series TTL logic > parts pretty much forever. Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. Signetics didn't patent it. Whoops. -- To email me, change 'usermale' to 'usermail' ###### Message-ID: <3DA64F48.8588FB3E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1034302416 12.237.69.162 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:13:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:13:36 GMT Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:13:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!ps01-chi1!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119111 Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > In article , > shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > > I cannot readily find the reference on the TI website (thus > > qualifying this for the "F" part of AFC), but I believe that TI > > has committed themselves to manufacturing SSI 7400 series TTL logic > > parts pretty much forever. > > Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has > it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. > > Signetics didn't patent it. Whoops. > There is also the 556, which is *two* 555's in one DIP... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3DA63B41.F046570@optushome.com.au> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:45:21 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1034304339 18872 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119039 > I haven't looked further down the thread to see if anyone else has > said this yet - but you can still get every PCB that appeared in a > project in Electronics Australia from a company called RCS > www.cia.com.au/rcsradio Yes, I found that also. But quite a few bucks for the complete set! > I ordered the two main boards from them about 5 years ago but came to > a halt when I figured out that the edge connector sockets on their own > were going to cost me $140. They were a very coarse staggered > connection style - I am sure that back in 1975 - these were very > common and cost only a few dollars each - but now they are very > expensive. I don't know aboy the RCS boards, but the ones I had in 1975 were not gold plated, and were a constant source of trouble. If I were doing it now, I'd try to solve both problems by soldering some more common intermediate connectors to both boards. I couldn't find the pin spacing (0.1" would help) in the book I have. > I still entertain fantasies of ordering the complete set and > completing the project. Well, your already part way there... Do you need any doco? Rob Storey ###### Message-ID: <3DA63C65.45045C6B@optushome.com.au> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:50:13 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <1033817509.74122@ds9.klebsch.de> <3D9F3C37.3C128DD1@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1034304632 18871 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.71.34.15!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119048 > Well, this covers Australia and Europe, but what about the > U. S. of A.??? I could pay more in shipping to get the board > from these suppliers...than the board itself would cost!!! Now you know the problems we face down here when something on eBay or wherever catches our eye! Not to mention the exchange rate, which helps the shipping problem for you, but stuffs it up completely for us. Rob Storey ###### Message-ID: <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:05:32 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1034305550 18871 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119054 > I designed and built my own Z80 machine in 1981. Being a poor > student at the time, I was very cost concious. Whilst I didn't > mind spending money on descrete TTL chips, I objected to spending > twice as much on edge connectors and the like, which is what they > cost at the time. Result was that I made up my own. I etched the > finger-edge connectors on PCBs, but I bought the sockets and a > long (and as I recall, very expensive) piece of veroboard to make > my backplane (it was most of the width of a 19" rack unit). When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember that?, 6800 and Z80) I used S-100 bus prototyping wire-wrap boards. Then I had reliable connectors, but was still stuck with my dodgy hardware designs! S-100 was a nice format and extremely well supported, but died with the IBM PC. I just scored two Digitex machines, and was surprised to find S-100 boards inside. These were made in 1983 - late in the life of S100, the RAM cards are 256K, which is a lot for these boards. My earliest S-100 RAM cards are 4K and absolutely covered in 2102 chips. These machines have an 8" floppy and some hard disk of the same physical size. One day I'll check the supply voltages are OK, connect a terminal emulator and fire them up. I expect to get an MP/M prompt (a type of multiuser CP/M). Rob Storey ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 04:09:19 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-hub.kaist.ac.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.hananet.net!news-xfer.nuri.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119094 Rob Storey wrote: > > When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember > that?, Spiritual granddaddy of the PIC isn't it? - never seen one in the flesh though. Spent most of its life in disc controllers, IIRC? pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 04:10:59 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!nntp.kreonet.re.kr!news-xfer.nuri.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119090 Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has > it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. It always amused me that the most horrifically complex microcontroller I've ever worked on was the Motorola MPC555 - presumably they hoped nobody who remembered "real" 555s would ever look at something that baroque ;) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 10 Oct 2002 22:14:25 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1br8exwr1a.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1034309662 4400 128.123.64.113 (11 Oct 2002 04:14:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 04:14:22 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119026 Rob Storey writes: > > When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember > that?, 6800 and Z80) I used S-100 bus prototyping wire-wrap boards. Then > I had reliable connectors, but was still stuck with my dodgy hardware > designs! S-100 was a nice format and extremely well supported, but died > with the IBM PC. 100 pins to carry 16 bits of address and 8 of data? No termination in the original design? Unregulated power on the backplane, requiring voltage regulators on all the board? You must have a different definition of ``nice'' than I do! -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3DA6563D.F8B605C8@optushome.com.au> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:40:29 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1034311246 18870 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!snewsf0.syd.ops.aspac.uu.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119050 > Rob Storey wrote: > > > > When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember > > that?, > > Spiritual granddaddy of the PIC isn't it? - never seen one in the > flesh though. Spent most of its life in disc controllers, IIRC? > No, I don't think so - they're long dead. They were significant because they were cheap and one of the first, along with the 8080 and 6800. IIRC they had a clean architecure and instruction set. The most notable feature was the subroutine call stack was in hardware, seven levels deep. This probably killed it for use by HLL's that would need deeper nesting. I'm not sure if there was a software stack for push/pop and parameter passing. If not, another nail in its coffin. I've still got mine, white 40 pin DIP ceramic package with a copper plate over the chip. Rob Storey ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:36:10 +0200 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1034318170 02 17333 OAB3bNOESzA9OD 021011 06:36:10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #124 Cache-Post-Path: ds9.klebsch.de!mario@ds9.klebsch.de X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119017 Rob Storey writes: >When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember >that?, Of course, allthough I never used it. >6800 and Z80) I used S-100 bus prototyping wire-wrap boards. Then >I had reliable connectors, but was still stuck with my dodgy hardware >designs! S-100 was a nice format and extremely well supported, but died >with the IBM PC. I do not think aboutconsider S100 a nice format but rather curous. It did not hav a bidirectional data bus ut separate lines for both directions. It probably was invented, when bidirectional bus drivers (like the 74LS245) were not in common use. 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### Message-ID: <3DA65DF3.448C8036@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:55:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1034319317 12.90.167.177 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:55:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:55:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118997 Pete Fenelon wrote: > Rob Storey wrote: > > > > When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone > > remember that?, > > Spiritual granddaddy of the PIC isn't it? - never seen one in the > flesh though. Spent most of its life in disc controllers, IIRC? It was quite nice in some ways, but fatally flawed in that it had a limited and inaccessible return stack, IIRC. Shades of the PIC in that respect only. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:03:06 +1300 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3DA677AA.2050407@es.co.nz> References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> <3DA64F48.8588FB3E@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p34-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1034319811 2102 203.173.222.162 (11 Oct 2002 07:03:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:03:31 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.voicenet.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in.superfeed.net!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119110 Charles Richmond wrote: > Philip Nasadowski wrote: > >>In article , >> shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: >> >> >>>I cannot readily find the reference on the TI website (thus >>>qualifying this for the "F" part of AFC), but I believe that TI >>>has committed themselves to manufacturing SSI 7400 series TTL logic >>>parts pretty much forever. >> >>Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has >>it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. >> >>Signetics didn't patent it. Whoops. >> > > There is also the 556, which is *two* 555's in one DIP... And the 558, which has *four* timers in one package. As used in the Apple II joystick circuit, I think in the IBM PC, and undoubtedly in quite a few other micros too. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - FutureCop:LAPD - iMac Game Wizard http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws/ ________________________________________________________________________ "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920's. ###### Message-ID: <3DA6C9A0.6700@home.com> From: Kenneth Casselman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:52:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.100.64.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1034340765 24.100.64.193 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:52:45 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:52:45 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!ps01-chi1!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119100 Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > In article , > shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > > I cannot readily find the reference on the TI website (thus > > qualifying this for the "F" part of AFC), but I believe that TI > > has committed themselves to manufacturing SSI 7400 series TTL logic > > parts pretty much forever. > > Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has > it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. > > Signetics didn't patent it. Whoops. > -- Maybe that's why Signetics is where it is today? ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 11 Oct 2002 08:00:37 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1belax3wje.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1034344835 5499 128.123.64.113 (11 Oct 2002 14:00:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 14:00:35 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119030 mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) writes: > > I do not think aboutconsider S100 a nice format but rather curous. It > did not hav a bidirectional data bus ut separate lines for both > directions. It probably was invented, when bidirectional bus drivers > (like the 74LS245) were not in common use. Its main motivation was that the designer (I don't remember his name) had a box of 100-pin connectors he wanted to get rid of. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Message-ID: References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> <3DA64F48.8588FB3E@ev1.net> <3DA677AA.2050407@es.co.nz> Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:36:55 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.106 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1034348517 205.206.39.106 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:01:57 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:01:57 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-east.rr.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!ps01-chi1!news.webusenet.com!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119045 In article <3DA677AA.2050407@es.co.nz>, Roger Johnstone wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >> Philip Nasadowski wrote: >>>Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has >>>it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. >>>Signetics didn't patent it. Whoops. >> There is also the 556, which is *two* 555's in one DIP... >And the 558, which has *four* timers in one package. As used in the >Apple II joystick circuit, I think in the IBM PC, and undoubtedly in >quite a few other micros too. Beware: a 556 is a dual timer, but a 558 is a quad one-shot. You can connect half a 558 to act like half a 556. I guess you can wire half a 556 to abdicate its powers and act like a quarter of a 558 Regards. Mel. -- electrocity: electrons using their power for _evil_. ###### Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:58:34 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Message-ID: <20021011175834.2601a22a.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 17:04:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p2458.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=6WJ:^=P[`3?Jia@hB6E]]71`\LnN2UYY1@c3YQ4dfbL8hC_lbVB6eN;madlC0;=_>< X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!amsnews01.chello.com!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119076 On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:36:10 +0200 mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) wrote: MK> I do not think aboutconsider S100 a nice format but rather curous. It MK> did not hav a bidirectional data bus ut separate lines for both MK> directions. So did several chips including the popular 2102 1kx1 SRAM. I can recall in my early days of digital electronics (not computers) thinking of pins as inputs or outputs and finding the idea of making them do both a strange one at first. MK> It probably was invented, when bidirectional bus drivers MK> (like the 74LS245) were not in common use. It was a very expensive component when the Z80 was new. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: tmm@spamfilter.asns.tr.unisys.com (Tim McCaffrey) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Organization: A series networking Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <3DA6563D.F8B605C8@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.63.212.94 X-Trace: trsvr.tr.unisys.com 1034352071 24927 192.63.212.94 (11 Oct 2002 16:01:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@tr.unisys.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:01:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!bbnews1.unisys.com!trsvr.tr.unisys.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119072 In article <3DA6563D.F8B605C8@optushome.com.au>, intabits@optushome.com.au says... > >> Rob Storey wrote: >> > >> > When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember >> > that?, >> >> Spiritual granddaddy of the PIC isn't it? - never seen one in the >> flesh though. Spent most of its life in disc controllers, IIRC? >> >No, I don't think so - they're long dead. >They were significant because they were cheap and one of the first, >along with the 8080 and 6800. IIRC they had a clean architecure and >instruction set. > >The most notable feature was the subroutine call stack was in hardware, >seven levels deep. This probably killed it for use by HLL's that would >need deeper nesting. I'm not sure if there was a software stack for >push/pop and parameter passing. If not, another nail in its coffin. > >I've still got mine, white 40 pin DIP ceramic package with a copper >plate over the chip. > >Rob Storey The other problems with the 2650 was 8K pages (similar to the 64K segments on the 8086, but they couldn't be relocated), and the 32K limit in addressability. The later was because they wanted to use the high bit of the address as an indirect bit, and the former because they only had 13 bits left for an address. They also had only 4 8 bit registers available at one time (you could swap 3 with an alternate bank, to get 7 registers total). There are two things I noticed about the 2650. The first was the part number, which is 6502 rotated right 1 digit. The second is that it seems to be a follow up to the 8008: Same number of 8 bit registers, same 8K limit (sort of), same on board stack. The big difference is that the instructions are very different (especially the addressing modes). If they had used 16 bit registers it would have been a very useful instruction set. The little test benchmarks I tried always seemed to show how annoying all those limitations were. Several years ago, I mailed somebody (I forget who) a copy of a programming guide that they posted on the Web. I cannot find it now (it was to be used to help them disassemble some ROMs for an arcade game). Oh well. - Tim ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 11 Oct 2002 09:03:01 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1034352181 11371 127.0.0.1 (11 Oct 2002 16:03:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 16:03:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119101 Pete Fenelon wrote in message news:... > Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > > > Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has > > it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. > > It always amused me that the most horrifically complex microcontroller > I've ever worked on was the Motorola MPC555 - presumably they hoped > nobody who remembered "real" 555s would ever look at something that > baroque ;) In a similar re-use, one of the better PowerPC processors is numbered simply "7400". Also a Motorola product, as I understand. I'm waiting for the 6L6 processor myself. And we cannot forget the two-on-a-die version, which I predict will be called the 12AU7 :-) Tim. ###### Message-ID: <3DA73AB5.4B9D2389@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1034362687 12.237.69.162 (Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:58:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:58:07 GMT Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:58:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119109 Rob Storey wrote: > > > I designed and built my own Z80 machine in 1981. Being a poor > > student at the time, I was very cost concious. Whilst I didn't > > mind spending money on descrete TTL chips, I objected to spending > > twice as much on edge connectors and the like, which is what they > > cost at the time. Result was that I made up my own. I etched the > > finger-edge connectors on PCBs, but I bought the sockets and a > > long (and as I recall, very expensive) piece of veroboard to make > > my backplane (it was most of the width of a 19" rack unit). > > When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember > that?, 6800 and Z80) I used S-100 bus prototyping wire-wrap boards. Then > I had reliable connectors, but was still stuck with my dodgy hardware > designs! S-100 was a nice format and extremely well supported, but died > with the IBM PC. > Yes, I remember the Signetics 2650. Radio Electronics magazine (the one started by Hugo Gernsbach of Sci-Fi fame--recall the Hugo awards) had a project to build a 2650 computer in the April, May, and June 1977 issues. IIRC, they would sell you the unpopulated printed circuit board to build this computer on. At that time I was a poor college student and had *no* money for such things... Radio Electronics had an article earlier (1974 ???) about building a computer using an Intel 8008 (Mark I ???). IIRC, this was part of the impetus to get Popular Electronics to feature the Altair as a cover story way back when... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 11 Oct 2002 12:51:45 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3DA28395.66DB465C@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> <3DA4B27A.CA3907B2@cisco.com> <3DA6C9A0.6700@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1034365905 29203 127.0.0.1 (11 Oct 2002 19:51:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2002 19:51:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119103 Kenneth Casselman wrote in message news:<3DA6C9A0.6700@home.com>... > Philip Nasadowski wrote: > > > > Even more intersting - the 555 timer is still around. Popular rumor has > > it that it's still the highest production volume IC made, even today. > > > > Signetics didn't patent it. Whoops. > > Maybe that's why Signetics is where it is today? There were actually several competing non-555 timers from companies like Exar. They were complete non-starters, and I cannot even remember their part numbers (they're in the TAB "IC Timer Handbook", though); maybe one was the XR 2240. What made the 555 such a success was that its feature set was just right. The competitors I mention above have all those features, plus a bunch more, but the extra features weren't generally wanted or needed. Tim. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <1belax3wje.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:33:31 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1034406017 1581 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119098 Joe Pfeiffer writes: >mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) writes: >> >> I do not think aboutconsider S100 a nice format but rather curous. It >> did not hav a bidirectional data bus ut separate lines for both >> directions. It probably was invented, when bidirectional bus drivers >> (like the 74LS245) were not in common use. >Its main motivation was that the designer (I don't remember his name) >had a box of 100-pin connectors he wanted to get rid of. S100 as such was "finalised" (IIRC from reaing "Fire in the Valley") by a groups of people getting together on a flight to Comdex or something like that... Cromemco's Roger Melen and Harry Garland named the bus "S100" - it didn't get IEEE-696 until it was "obsolete". -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: Roger Johnstone Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:42:29 +1300 Organization: ihug ( New Zealand ) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3DA7FC95.8060802@es.co.nz> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <3DA73AB5.4B9D2389@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p29-max3.inv.ihug.co.nz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: lust.ihug.co.nz 1034419377 22748 203.173.223.61 (12 Oct 2002 10:42:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ihug.co.nz NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:42:57 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!newsfeeds.ihug.co.nz!lust.ihug.co.nz!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119113 Charles Richmond wrote: > Yes, I remember the Signetics 2650. Radio Electronics magazine > (the one started by Hugo Gernsbach of Sci-Fi fame--recall the Hugo > awards) had a project to build a 2650 computer in the April, May, > and June 1977 issues. IIRC, they would sell you the unpopulated > printed circuit board to build this computer on. At that time I > was a poor college student and had *no* money for such things... I workmate of mine still has his 2650 S-100 system that he built circa 1980. He brought it into work a few years ago, the thing still ran although some of the tapes (compact cassettes of course!) were failing, and the rubber parts in the tape player weren't any better. The electronics though were all OK, including the massive power supply which never ran at more than a quarter of its rating, and the monitor made from an old TV. -- Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand Apple II - FutureCop:LAPD - iMac Game Wizard http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~rojaws/ ________________________________________________________________________ "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us" Western Union memo, 1876 ###### From: aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:40:17 GMT Organization: Aceware Programming Pty Ltd Message-ID: <3da81a95.10051102@news.m.iinet.net.au> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63B41.F046570@optushome.com.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.59.54.231 X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1034429664 1558 203.59.54.231 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119167 >Yes, I found that also. But quite a few bucks for the complete set! Yes $AUD 30 to 40 each >I don't know aboy the RCS boards, but the ones I had in 1975 were not >gold plated, and were a constant source of trouble. If I were doing it >now, I'd try to solve both problems by soldering some more common >intermediate connectors to both boards. I couldn't find the pin spacing >(0.1" would help) in the book I have. I tried looking at the ISA connectors off a pc but they were not any nice multiple of the spacing. I also got very excited when I found some gold plated staggered connectors at "Hi Tech Metals in Western Australia" (sadly now closed) a few years ago - but they were still too fine. Guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and buy the genuine article one day. The museum always seems to be sucking up money as fast as I can find it. >Do you need any doco? Thanks - I also have the original orange book that reprinted all the monthly articles. I keep it on the table next to my bed and read it sometimes late at night. I have scanned the front and back covers and they are at: http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/ItemDetail.asp?lngItemId=68 I don't know if you can get all the parts needed now adays eg: 9311 synchronous 4 bit counter 9334 eight bit addressable latch 9001 high speed J-K flip flop 9322 quad 2 input multiplexer 93414 1024 bit RAM Tony ###### Message-ID: <3DA86046.5B32E9BF@optushome.com.au> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 03:47:50 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63B41.F046570@optushome.com.au> <3da81a95.10051102@news.m.iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1034444899 18875 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator2-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119154 > Thanks - I also have the original orange book that reprinted all the > monthly articles.... > I have scanned the front and back covers and they are at: > http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/ItemDetail.asp?lngItemId=68 Yep, the same book I have. > I don't know if you can get all the parts needed now adays eg: > > 9311 synchronous 4 bit counter > 9334 eight bit addressable latch > 9001 high speed J-K flip flop > 9322 quad 2 input multiplexer > 93414 1024 bit RAM This has always kept Jim Rowe in my bad books. The RAM chip specified was a bipolar device that cost about $50 1976 dollars. The common 2102 MOS part, though much slower, was *more* than up to the task in this (250Khz?) serial machine. Only $3, but different pinouts - I went that way and it worked just fine. (I suspect EA was unduly influenced by Fairchild in those days) 7400 series equivalents for the others hould be no problem, especially if you have piles of old boards to scrounge through. Rob Storey ###### Message-ID: <3DA8F386.B30F680A@optushome.com.au> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:16:06 +1000 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1br8exwr1a.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1034482590 18872 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!triton.net!smallfeed.triton.net!newsfeed.zip.com.au!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119153 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > Rob Storey writes: > > > > When I started using microprocessors (Sigentics 2650 - anyone remember > > that?, 6800 and Z80) I used S-100 bus prototyping wire-wrap boards. Then > > I had reliable connectors, but was still stuck with my dodgy hardware > > designs! S-100 was a nice format and extremely well supported, but died > > with the IBM PC. > > 100 pins to carry 16 bits of address and 8 of data? No termination in > the original design? Unregulated power on the backplane, requiring > voltage regulators on all the board? You must have a different > definition of ``nice'' than I do! I suppose I must! Admittedly, I'd forgotten about the dual data bus, and the stupid pinouts. I used a "Wunderbuss" that had a built-in active termination. The Digitex systems I just aquired have paasive terminator cards. Local regulation was a GOOD idea IMHO:- * Cheap and reliable. * Isolated VCC noise betwteen boards. * A central supply with good regulation capable of 10-20A, with overvoltage, short circuit and thermal protection would be much more expensive, and/or beyond the design skills of many hobbyists. * Not sure, but I suspect that voltage drops on conductors carrying these currents would make it difficult to get 5.0v +/5% (preferrably 2%) to every chip. Since some could be up to 18 inches further from the supply than others. And what other format was there then? Availabilty of wire-wrap prototyping cards, plus ready made RAM and video cards made it the obvious choice for computer expermenters. I like the size, shape and look of the boards, and the systems they went into, so as far as I'm concerned, it was a "nice" format! Rob Storey ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:01:50 +0200 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 17 Message-ID: <1034499710.91449@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1br8exwr1a.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3DA8F386.B30F680A@optushome.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1034499710 02 13159 yt+3bn1bSNAZDR 021013 09:01:50 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #124 Cache-Post-Path: ds9.klebsch.de!mario@ds9.klebsch.de X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119130 Rob Storey writes: >* Not sure, but I suspect that voltage drops on conductors carrying >these currents would make it difficult to get 5.0v +/5% (preferrably 2%) >to every chip. Since some could be up to 18 inches further from the >supply than others. Voltage drop can be a problem with local power regulation, too, but voltage drop on the GND line. With local regulation you will have 5V on every chip, but there still will be differences in GND potential. 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518 ###### Message-ID: <3DA992BB.DE4F114@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1br8exwr1a.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3DA8F386.B30F680A@optushome.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:41:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.127 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1034523716 12.90.167.127 (Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:41:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:41:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!prodigy.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119212 Rob Storey wrote: > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > ... snip S100 references ... > > > > 100 pins to carry 16 bits of address and 8 of data? No termination > > in the original design? Unregulated power on the backplane, > > requiring voltage regulators on all the board? You must have a > > different definition of ``nice'' than I do! > > I suppose I must! > > Admittedly, I'd forgotten about the dual data bus, and the stupid > pinouts. > > I used a "Wunderbuss" that had a built-in active termination. The > Digitex systems I just aquired have paasive terminator cards. > > Local regulation was a GOOD idea IMHO:- > * Cheap and reliable. Puts the heat in the worst possible place. > * Isolated VCC noise betwteen boards. Vcc noise is much less critical than ground reference noise. Most Vcc noise can be handled by a local bypass capacitor or two. > * A central supply with good regulation capable of 10-20A, with > overvoltage, short circuit and thermal protection would be much more > expensive, and/or beyond the design skills of many hobbyists. Disagree. > * Not sure, but I suspect that voltage drops on conductors carrying > these currents would make it difficult to get 5.0v +/5% (preferrably 2%) > to every chip. Since some could be up to 18 inches further from the > supply than others. The ground connection has the same problem, and much heavier effects. > And what other format was there then? > Availabilty of wire-wrap prototyping cards, plus ready made RAM and > video cards made it the obvious choice for computer expermenters. Vero had a very good set of prototyping boards, with cheap connectors, which I used in and before the S100 era began. When the Altair first appeared I looked at it with a view to replacing my system, and discarded it as fouled beyond belief. > > I like the size, shape and look of the boards, and the systems they went > into, so as far as I'm concerned, it was a "nice" format! -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 68.147.131.211 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <9nijqu8jhpo2dj4lrnr6uv77sogm5avpg2@4ax.com> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1br8exwr1a.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3DA8F386.B30F680A@optushome.com.au> <1034499710.91449@ds9.klebsch.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:40:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1034538022 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:40:22 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:40:22 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!peernews!peer.cwci.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119221 On Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:01:50 +0200, mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) wrote: >Voltage drop can be a problem with local power regulation, too, but >voltage drop on the GND line. With local regulation you will have 5V >on every chip, but there still will be differences in GND potential. Had a number of DEC PDP-11/70 systems with random problems due to lack of proper grounding within and between cabs. Let fried circus have a few weeks dinking around then suggested that just maybe the problem could be electrical noise and they could maybe make sure that the boards, supplies, and cabinets were all wired together properly. Not sure what they actually did, but the action eliminated the random problems, and allowed us to move on to diagnose isolated equipment problems. Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada -- Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply abuse@aol.com tosspam@aol.com abuse@att.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@mci.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@shaw.ca abuse@telus.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 14 Oct 2002 15:01:51 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1br8exwr1a.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3DA8F386.B30F680A@optushome.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119235 In article <3DA8F386.B30F680A@optushome.com.au>, Rob Storey wrote: >I used a "Wunderbuss" that had a built-in active termination. The >Digitex systems I just aquired have paasive terminator cards. Oh, yes. The Wonderbuss. Guaranteed to turn a Z80A to a Z80B--or, for that matter, to increase the suffix on any part by a full letter. hawk, reminding readers that Victoria's Secret originally referred to a chip fabrication process -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 14 Oct 02 20:28:50 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <1belax3wje.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-746.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!199.106.71.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119328 In article bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >S100 as such was "finalised" (IIRC from reaing "Fire in the Valley") >by a groups of people getting together on a flight to Comdex or >something like that... Cromemco's Roger Melen and Harry Garland >named the bus "S100" - it didn't get IEEE-696 until it was >"obsolete". Not for lack of trying. IEEE-696 gave S-100 the ability to do 16-bit data transfers, by replacing the two 8-bit unidirectional data buses with a 16-bit bidirectional one. IIRC it also allowed for 24-bit addressing. -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 15 Oct 2002 15:06:14 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <1belax3wje.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119320 In article <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article >bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >>S100 as such was "finalised" (IIRC from reaing "Fire in the Valley") >>by a groups of people getting together on a flight to Comdex or >>something like that... Cromemco's Roger Melen and Harry Garland >>named the bus "S100" - it didn't get IEEE-696 until it was >>"obsolete". >Not for lack of trying. IEEE-696 gave S-100 the ability to do >16-bit data transfers, by replacing the two 8-bit unidirectional >data buses with a 16-bit bidirectional one. IIRC it also allowed >for 25-bit addressing. weren't there (at least) two different addressing modes? One which decoded the 64k banks (a select line for each), allowing 1mb, and another which went to 24 bits? hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <1belax3wje.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:58:40 +0800 Message-ID: <0o9joa.r1i.ln@innovative.iinet.net.au> Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1034758817 2009 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119447 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >In article >bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >>S100 as such was "finalised" (IIRC from reaing "Fire in the Valley") >>by a groups of people getting together on a flight to Comdex or >>something like that... Cromemco's Roger Melen and Harry Garland >>named the bus "S100" - it didn't get IEEE-696 until it was >>"obsolete". >Not for lack of trying. IEEE-696 gave S-100 the ability to do >16-bit data transfers, by replacing the two 8-bit unidirectional >data buses with a 16-bit bidirectional one. IIRC it also allowed >for 24-bit addressing. You recall correctly! From the 1983 publication: Section 2.2.2 The address bus consists of 16 or 24 parallel signal lines used to select the specific location in memory or a specific input/output device for communication during the current bus cycle. All bus masters assert A0 through A15 but may assert lines A16 through A23 is extended address capability is desired. ... further in 2.2.2.3 PHANTOM* The PHANTOM* signal provides the capability of over-laying two memory slaves at a common address location. ... So it's more like 25 bits. :-) Useful for bootstrap, etc. I/O restricted to A0..A15 addresses. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <1belax3wje.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:01:38 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1034761905 2014 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.cwix.com!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119448 hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >In article <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>In article >>bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >>>S100 as such was "finalised" (IIRC from reaing "Fire in the Valley") >>>by a groups of people getting together on a flight to Comdex or >>>something like that... Cromemco's Roger Melen and Harry Garland >>>named the bus "S100" - it didn't get IEEE-696 until it was >>>"obsolete". >>Not for lack of trying. IEEE-696 gave S-100 the ability to do >>16-bit data transfers, by replacing the two 8-bit unidirectional >>data buses with a 16-bit bidirectional one. IIRC it also allowed >>for 25-bit addressing. >weren't there (at least) two different addressing modes? One which >decoded the 64k banks (a select line for each), allowing 1mb, and >another which went to 24 bits? Wash your mouth out with soap! It was 16 bits address, then extended to 24 with the PHANTOM* bit to spare. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 16 Oct 2002 14:28:38 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119406 In article , Bernd Felsche wrote: >hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >>In article <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >>Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>In article >>>bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >>>Not for lack of trying. IEEE-696 gave S-100 the ability to do >>>16-bit data transfers, by replacing the two 8-bit unidirectional >>>data buses with a 16-bit bidirectional one. IIRC it also allowed >>>for 25-bit addressing. >>weren't there (at least) two different addressing modes? One which >>decoded the 64k banks (a select line for each), allowing 1mb, and >>another which went to 24 bits? >Wash your mouth out with soap! >It was 16 bits address, then extended to 24 with the PHANTOM* bit to >spare. I remember the 16 bits :) But my dusty memory says that the first systems dealing with more than 64k had a 16 bank limit. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:58:44 +0800 Message-ID: <402loa.60s.ln@innovative.iinet.net.au> Lines: 50 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1034816403 3346 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.frii.net!newsfeed.frii.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!news-in-sanjose!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119507 hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >In article , >Bernd Felsche wrote: >>hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >>>In article <757.52T2516T12286309@kltpzyxm.invalid>, >>>Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>In article >>>>bernie@innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) writes: >>>>Not for lack of trying. IEEE-696 gave S-100 the ability to do >>>>16-bit data transfers, by replacing the two 8-bit unidirectional >>>>data buses with a 16-bit bidirectional one. IIRC it also allowed >>>>for 25-bit addressing. >>>weren't there (at least) two different addressing modes? One which >>>decoded the 64k banks (a select line for each), allowing 1mb, and >>>another which went to 24 bits? >>Wash your mouth out with soap! >>It was 16 bits address, then extended to 24 with the PHANTOM* bit to >>spare. >I remember the 16 bits :) S100 wasn't *really* a standard until IEEE-696; fairly late in the game. >But my dusty memory says that the first systems dealing with more than >64k had a 16 bank limit. That's with bank-switched memory; we had an Alpha-Micro (AM100) running at the UCC with 32k bank size, IIRC. That started around 1978 - after we scraped together $600 (whole dollars; not the wimpy submerged type of later years) or so for 64kbytes of bank-switched memory. Had up to 4 users connected by serial terminals and a video-RAM "console", keyboard and joystick; how else were you supposed to lan on the moon or shoot down Darth Vader?? "Mass" storage was by 8" dual floppy (Persci) - only the floppy media in shrink-wrap hadn't been double-sided. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <20021011175834.2601a22a.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 20 Oct 2002 12:43:19 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 20 Oct 2002 13:06:16 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119666 mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) wrote about the S100 bus: > It probably was invented, when bidirectional bus drivers > (like the 74LS245) were not in common use. Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > It was a very expensive component when the Z80 was new. True only for values of "expensive" around $3-4. And there were other equivalent (but not pin compatible) parts that could be found for less, such as (IIRC) the DP8304. Four bit transceivers such as the DP8216 were also cheap. The unidirectional data busses of the Altair were an *extremely* poor design choice even for the time. As soon as you had at least two cards with LSI components using bidirectional data busses, it was a false economy. About the only configuration for which that wasn't the case was a minimal "system" with only the CPU board and a memory board that used RAM chips with separate inputs and outputs (such as the previously mentioned 2102). Even using only unidirectional three-state driver parts, they *still* could have shared the same bidirectional data lines on the bus, and it would have been better. Sigh. ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Date: 21 Oct 2002 05:37:36 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <20021011175834.2601a22a.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1035203857 471 127.0.0.1 (21 Oct 2002 12:37:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Oct 2002 12:37:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119717 Eric Smith wrote in message news:... > The unidirectional data busses of the Altair were an *extremely* poor > design choice even for the time. As soon as you had at least two cards > with LSI components using bidirectional data busses, it was a false > economy. About the only configuration for which that wasn't the case > was a minimal "system" with only the CPU board and a memory board that > used RAM chips with separate inputs and outputs (such as the previously > mentioned 2102). Non-minimal systems tended to have more memory boards than anything else; a fully-decked-out 64Kbyte system needs sixteen of the 4K memory boards. It shouldn't be *too* surprising that the memory architecture drove the bus design. (OK, "design" is too forgiving for S-100!) Yes, LSI peripheral parts (UART's, etc.) with bidirectional data busses were around at the time (though a lot of early S-100 stuff tended to use TTL shift registers.) Tim. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Robison Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's X-Nntp-Posting-Host: flip.physics.uiowa.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3DB40E27.467DC7@uiowa.edu.com> Sender: news@sysadm.physics.uiowa.edu (News Administrator) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: University of Iowa X-Accept-Language: en References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <20021011175834.2601a22a.steveo@eircom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:24:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!avalon.net!news1.icaen!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119674 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Eric Smith wrote in message news:... > > The unidirectional data busses of the Altair were an *extremely* poor > > design choice even for the time. As soon as you had at least two cards > > with LSI components using bidirectional data busses, it was a false > > economy. About the only configuration for which that wasn't the case > > was a minimal "system" with only the CPU board and a memory board that > > used RAM chips with separate inputs and outputs (such as the previously > > mentioned 2102). > > Non-minimal systems tended to have more memory boards than anything > else; a fully-decked-out 64Kbyte system needs sixteen of the 4K memory boards. > It shouldn't be *too* surprising that the memory architecture drove the > bus design. (OK, "design" is too forgiving for S-100!) Take a look at the original Altair CPU card. This explains the layout of the S100 bus. (Amazing, how few via's appeared on that card...) -Willy ###### Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 20:39:00 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's Message-ID: <20021021203900.513d441c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <20021011175834.2601a22a.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Oct 2002 01:00:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p2671.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=nIj=YnIK]<3GO^iKSaC[H:1`\LnN2UYY1KeeX=^3:D= wrote: ES> mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) wrote about the S100 bus: ES> > It probably was invented, when bidirectional bus drivers ES> > (like the 74LS245) were not in common use. ES> ES> Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: ES> > It was a very expensive component when the Z80 was new. ES> ES> True only for values of "expensive" around $3-4. And there were other That's a lot when you're targetting ~$25 for a board (even allowing that $3-4 to go down to $2-3 for quantity). They were still nearly that expensive when we (Torch) were buying Z80s at 80p a throw. ES> About the only configuration for which that wasn't the ES> case was a minimal "system" with only the CPU board and a memory board Not an uncommon arrangement that one. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3DB4B262.2C538B1C@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 74 TTL Series ALU's References: <3d947ef7_1@news.iglou.com> <3D96868F.D485892E@optushome.com.au> <3d9eb375.3505300@news.m.iinet.net.au> <3DA63FFC.A430EF85@optushome.com.au> <1034318169.929517@ds9.klebsch.de> <20021011175834.2601a22a.steveo@eircom.net> <20021021203900.513d441c.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:09:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.177.17 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1035252574 12.90.177.17 (Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:09:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 02:09:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:119736 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > ES> Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > ES> > It was a very expensive component when the Z80 was new. > ES> > ES> True only for values of "expensive" around $3-4. And there > > That's a lot when you're targetting ~$25 for a board (even > allowing that $3-4 to go down to $2-3 for quantity). They were > still nearly that expensive when we (Torch) were buying Z80s > at 80p a throw. My first developmental 8080s cost somewhere between $300 and $500 each. When the CPU boards were done the Z80 appeared, at about the same price, while 8080s were down to $20 or so. We decided to ignore the Z80, which was a regrettable decision as far as marketing the end machine was concerned, but we were building for internal use. The system lasted for 15 to 20 years. I remember Ted Hoff at an IEEE meeting circa 1972 telling us about the coming 8080. We were 8008 users. He said "it is a REAL computer". He was right. The major lack was a means of testing the state of the interrupt enable. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address!