X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.72.150 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: DOS history question From: Adam Fairbrother Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 33 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:15:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.67.253.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1031994952 24.67.253.205 (Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:15:52 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:15:52 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116606 Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). Now don't get me wrong, I do have a bit of an understanding about... bits as well as Octal, and that part makes scence to me, other then the part of what the hell a "PDP10" and a "RAD50". Although I still havn't fully looked into their history yet. When i started looking into the CP/M I found a link to this website. http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/kildall.htm, and the name Gary Kildall, the apprerant programer of CP/M. The web page states that he took the 8.3 naming convention from the DEC PDP-10 VMS OS. After searching around a bit more I found a newsgroup post that states that "Either Gary had a time machine and traveled to an alternate universe to do the copying, or the page is wrong :-). I'll agree fully that there was a significant influence from the DES OS's, but you cannot tie it to any one because he did not copy any one of them in detail." -- Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com). The same post states that he choose 8.3 just because. Now, I hope this isn't asking to much, but is all that information pretty much accurate? did he really just choose it on a whim or is there a real reason that he chose the 8.3. Also any information that you can point me to or provide on the "PDP10" and "RAD50" would greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance --Adam Fairbrother ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sat, 14 Sep 02 10:47:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaZDdtOZymJXbJ5L0xspCWg6bA/uVPHCrqE4dcZs1nLBGD6daBXRRDt X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2002 12:00:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-214 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116556 In article , Adam Fairbrother wrote: > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the >history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through >some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it >isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M >OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 >bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). This was on all of DEC's architectures. > > Now don't get me wrong, I do have a bit of an understanding >about... bits as well as Octal, and that part makes scence to me, other >then the part of what the hell a "PDP10" PDP-10 was a CPU architecture. > ..and a "RAD50". RAD50 was simply a "formatting" scheme and was used by the assemblers when they output *.REL files to save memory, disk space, etc. Now I bet you'll have to ask what a *.REL file is. > .. Although I >still havn't fully looked into their history yet. > > When i started looking into the CP/M I found a link to this >website. http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/kildall.htm, and the >name Gary Kildall, the apprerant programer of CP/M. The web page states >that he took the 8.3 naming convention from the DEC PDP-10 VMS OS. Hit that man with a hundred wet noodles; he apparently doesn't know his OS from a hole in the ground. >After searching around a bit more I found a newsgroup post that states >that "Either Gary had a time machine and traveled to an alternate >universe to do the copying, or the page is wrong :-). I'll agree fully >that there was a significant influence from the DES OS's, but you cannot >tie it to any one because he did not copy any one of them in detail." -- >Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com). The same post states that he >choose 8.3 just because. > > Now, I hope this isn't asking to much, but is all that information >pretty much accurate? did he really just choose it on a whim or is there >a real reason that he chose the 8.3. Also any information that you can >point me to or provide on the "PDP10" and "RAD50" would greatly be >appreciated. alt.sys.pdp10 /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sat, 14 Sep 02 12:43:08 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 92 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVavppnzDNrmKFadQblO/IFKTo7zzC9swNafUmrTTLZoYTX43cEnJrZg X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2002 13:56:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-214 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116595 In article , "Hans Vlems" wrote: > >"Adam Fairbrother" schreef in bericht >news:Xns9289171BE97A8NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... >> Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the >> history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through >> some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it >> isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M >> OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 >> bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). >> >> Now don't get me wrong, I do have a bit of an understanding >> about... bits as well as Octal, and that part makes scence to me, other >> then the part of what the hell a "PDP10" and a "RAD50". Although I >> still havn't fully looked into their history yet. >> >> When i started looking into the CP/M I found a link to this >> website. http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/kildall.htm, and the >> name Gary Kildall, the apprerant programer of CP/M. The web page states >> that he took the 8.3 naming convention from the DEC PDP-10 VMS OS. >> After searching around a bit more I found a newsgroup post that states >> that "Either Gary had a time machine and traveled to an alternate >> universe to do the copying, or the page is wrong :-). I'll agree fully >> that there was a significant influence from the DES OS's, but you cannot >> tie it to any one because he did not copy any one of them in detail." -- >> Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com). The same post states that he >> choose 8.3 just because. >> >> Now, I hope this isn't asking to much, but is all that information >> pretty much accurate? did he really just choose it on a whim or is there >> a real reason that he chose the 8.3. Also any information that you can >> point me to or provide on the "PDP10" and "RAD50" would greatly be >> appreciated. >> >My best guess is that the origin of 8.3 filenames is lost in the mists of >history. What remains are legends, deteriorating memories and downright >nonsense. An example of the latter is "DEC PDP-10 VMS OS". >Sounds impressive >but it combines a computer architecture (the PDP-10, and >it came in several >implementations in hardware) and an operating system (VMS). VMS runs on >several platforms, the PDP-10 was not part of that set. Both the PDP10 and >VMS are products of Digital Equipment Corp. >To return to the 8.3 question, (AFAIK) VMS had 9.3 in >the beginning Was it 9? I don't seem to be able to remember what 11M could do. > ...and it >was later modified to 39.39. After TOPS-20. >RAD50 is more a coding (compression) technique. >It translates values into a >radix-50 system and the neat thing is that you can put >3 radix-50 symbols in a single byte. You should probably define byte here. >8.3 filenames were used by DEC operating systems. >OS8, RT-11 and RSX spring to mind. I don't remember them being 8.3. On the other hand, all the work I did for -11 and -8 groups was prepared on a PDP-10, so that might explain why I never saw 8 characters. > ..IIRC OS8 (runs on the PDP-8 platform) Yup. > ... dates from the mid 70's. Nope. Earlier. I don't have dates, though. One of the guys who worked on 0S8 was doing it around when I started working at DEC and that was 1971. >DG's RDOS also had 8.3 filenames and in unix the >concept doesn't even exist. >Unix allows a dot in a filename but it has no meaning for the OS itself. That's another breakage in standard usage, IMO. The extension had a definite mean, had standards established, and was a remarkably useful way to organize and manage files. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:39:14 -0400 Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1032021555 204.250.0.238 (14 Sep 2002 12:39:15 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116532 wrote in message = news:alvf6l$evp$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > >DG's RDOS also had 8.3 filenames and in unix the concept doesn't even = exist. > >Unix allows a dot in a filename but it has no meaning for the OS = itself. >=20 > That's another breakage in standard usage, IMO. The extension > had a definite mean, had standards established, and was a=20 > remarkably useful way to organize and manage files. Actually, while it may not mean anything to the Unix *kernel*, the file extension does tend to mean things to compilers and the like.=20 The MacOS through HFS (hierarchical file system) allows one or more dots in a filename, but uses a separate mechanism to determine type of a file, as well as the application resposible for files of a given type. These are additional fields in the directory. And, while I have no idea whether you can refer to these fields in the underlying Unix shell found in OS X, in the GUI shell, you can issue a search for files of a specified type and creator. -dq ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:50:38 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1032022238 10343 128.29.114.13 (14 Sep 2002 16:50:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:50:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116629 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >Hit that man with a hundred wet noodles; he apparently doesn't know >his OS from a hole in the ground. I don't know if you thought that one up or got it from somewhere else; i've not seen it before. ROFLM(OS)O! Consider it stolen by me for use elsewhere. Thanks! Joe Morris ###### From: tshoppa@wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: 14 Sep 2002 10:59:33 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8327b166.0209140959.7ed7b47c@posting.google.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032026373 15895 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2002 17:59:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2002 17:59:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116648 Adam Fairbrother wrote in message news:... > When i started looking into the CP/M I found a link to this > website. http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/kildall.htm, and the > name Gary Kildall, the apprerant programer of CP/M. The web page states > that he took the 8.3 naming convention from the DEC PDP-10 VMS OS. 1) VMS didn't exist until 1978. CP/M had existed several years by then. 2) First versions of VMS used 9.3, just like RSX-11 and its filesystem ODS-1. 3) VMS doesn't run on a PDP-10. Tim. ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: 14 Sep 2002 12:48:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032032933 22283 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2002 19:48:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2002 19:48:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116665 "Hans Vlems" wrote in message news:... > 8.3 filenames were used by DEC operating systems. OS8, RT-11 and RSX spring > to mind. OS/8 is 6.2 RT-11 is 6.3 RSX-11 is 9.3 Don't get me wrong; the DEC OS conventions weighed heavily in CP/M's design. But it was not, by any means, a verbatim "clone" of any one of them. Tim. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 02 09:30:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZwq/T2TeBYHAOefX9C8WCpz9JqO2Mv5ECvLQHigatFJv8Muq3tdMcB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2002 10:44:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!blackbush.de.kpnqwest.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-31 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116682 In article <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com>, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > wrote in message news:alvf6l$evp$3@bob.news.rcn.net... >> >DG's RDOS also had 8.3 filenames and in unix the concept doesn't even exist. >> >Unix allows a dot in a filename but it has no meaning for the OS itself. >> >> That's another breakage in standard usage, IMO. The extension >> had a definite mean, had standards established, and was a >> remarkably useful way to organize and manage files. > >Actually, while it may not mean anything to the Unix *kernel*, >the file extension does tend to mean things to compilers and >the like. TOPS-10 knew about a few so that people didn't have to type everything out. If I said R FOO, the latest assumption would be to LOOKUP FOO.EXE. On the other hand, it did not insist that all executables be that extension. If you really, really thought you needed to RUN FOO.FOR, it would obey, LOOKUP the file FOO.FOR, and allow the user job to execute it. It was a wonderful first stab for a new processor test. Processors should be able to handle crap without going completely berserk. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 02 09:31:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbPc8H6x0B6o6BVFTVMHj5dTgZ/oAVvdOloFFRXtSJH2wiSehvA9RH4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2002 10:45:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-31 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116680 In article , Roland Hutchinson wrote: >Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > >> wrote in message news:alvf6l$evp$3@bob.news.rcn.net... >>> >DG's RDOS also had 8.3 filenames and in unix the concept doesn't even >>> >exist. Unix allows a dot in a filename but it has no meaning for the OS >>> >itself. >>> >>> That's another breakage in standard usage, IMO. The extension >>> had a definite mean, had standards established, and was a >>> remarkably useful way to organize and manage files. >> >> Actually, while it may not mean anything to the Unix *kernel*, >> the file extension does tend to mean things to compilers and >> the like. > >True enough, but the true notion of "file type" in Unix -- to the extent >that there is one -- depends on smoke and mirrors^W^W^Wmagic numbers in >combination with arcane guesswork. (See "man file".) > Oh, good GRIEF! It's all numbers. You are working with a computer, you know. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 02 09:34:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbgwBoZX06ieresDUMEtsxSP5uuUk2ddoWqMLZcWM3djzsp/r6iVZ84 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2002 10:47:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed2.kddnet.ad.jp!news0.dion.ne.jp!jpix!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-31 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116693 In article , jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>Hit that man with a hundred wet noodles; he apparently doesn't know >>his OS from a hole in the ground. > >I don't know if you thought that one up or got it from somewhere else; >i've not seen it before. ROFLM(OS)O! I was wondering if anybody would get it. :-) I have no idea if it's mine or somebody else's. I did think that I had just "thought it up" but who knows? > >Consider it stolen by me for use elsewhere. Thanks! You're very welcome. Now all I have to do is hex that damned web page. PDP-10 VMS indeed! /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 02 12:40:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 87 Message-ID: References: <1032032579snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYd3mHyQATLO7ZMW25j4YCd4EAKnhxAQRWoBNXiXtNg3TuS4twT03mT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2002 13:53:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-13 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116674 In article <1032032579snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >In article jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article , >> Adam Fairbrother wrote: >> > ..and a "RAD50". >> >> RAD50 was simply a "formatting" scheme and was used by the >> assemblers when they output *.REL files to save memory, disk >> space, etc. Now I bet you'll have to ask what a *.REL file is. > >I'd hardly call it a "formatting scheme", unless you also view Base64 and >uuencoding as "formatting schemes". > >No one seems to have told Adam much about what RAD50 does, so I'll make >an attempt (old DEC hands feel free to shoot me down): essentially, >it's a mechanism for compressing data (conventionally, the set of >character codes that are used for filenames, symbols in assembler code, >etc) into fewer bits than would be consumed in ASCII (or any of the 6- or >7-bit character set codes utilized by some DEC computer architectures). > >There were a total of 40 different characters that could be represented; >these included the digits 0--9, the upper-case letters A--Z, the period, >the dollar, the underscore, and (IIRC) the hyphen (or was it the space?). > >Each character was given its "RAD50 code" in the range 0--39. If Adam >tries the arithmetic, he'll find that three such codes can fit into a 16- >bit word (39*40^2+39*40+39 = 63999 < 65536). The name RAD50 was used, >despite the fact that the arithmetic was being performed in radix-40, >because 40 decimal is 50 octal; and in those days we ALL of us used to >"think" in octal, hexadecimal not yet having been invented :-) > >I know that operating systems such as RSX-11M and RT-11 on the 16-bit DEC >architectures used to take advantage of RAD50 to pack the six letters of >an assembler or compiler identifier (aka "symbol") into two 16-bit words. >I also remember being gob-smacked by the elegance of the code for >performing this packing operation (since we had the advantage in those >days of the source assembler code of RSX-11M being delivered with the >computer, and hence could *read* programs and appreciate them); IIRC, the >operations of packing three characters into a word, or unpacking them, >was performed in about 20 bytes of machine-code. I swear I've typed this in before but i sure can't find it. This is the blurb DEC put in the 10's System Reference Card. [Begin excerpt] RADIX 50 REPRESENTATION Radix 50 representation condenses 6-character symbols into 32 bits. The symbol characters are subscripted in the following manner: S_6S_5S_4S_3S_2S_1 Determine the octal code (O_n) for each character and use the following formula to generate the 50_8 representation. (((((O_6 * 50) + O_5) * 50 +O_4) * 50 + O_3) * 50 + O_2) * 50 + O_1 OCTAL CODES _______________________________________________________ | Second Octal Digit | | | | 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | | __________________________________| | 0 |null | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | | |---------------------------------| | First 1 |7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E | | Octal |---------------------------------| | Digit 2 |F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | | |---------------------------------| | 3 |N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | | |---------------------------------| | 4 |V | W | X | Y | Z | . | $ | % | |_____________________________________________________| [End excerpt] /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:51:14 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Message-ID: <20020914225114.5dd2ad6c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2002 01:00:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3771.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=@0cGkE4kI2FQ<[S6bj[`5K1`\LnN2UYYA5B0RS7nBIVEkP@QO`nIa0@8@?BC@UGb<@ X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116701 On Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:13:36 -0400 Roland Hutchinson wrote: RH> True enough, but the true notion of "file type" in Unix -- to the RH> extent Unix file types - hmm lessee - directory, device, pipe, socket, symlink, regular file - the last may be executable and if so may be in one of the supported binary formats. More than that and it's the business of applications and nothing to do with the OS. This aspect of unix I like. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: jrlatala@shell.golden.net Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: Date: 14 Sep 2002 20:31:36 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.210.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@golden.net X-Trace: radon.golden.net 1032049892 199.166.210.115 (Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:31:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:31:32 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!radon.golden.net!shell.golden.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116684 In article , Hans Vlems wrote: >RAD50 is more a coding (compression) technique. It translates values into a >radix-50 system and the neat thing is that you can put 3 radix-50 symbols in >a single byte. I think you mean 'in a single word', i.e. 16 bits. Three RAD50 characters won't pack into an 8-bit byte. The 50 in RAD50 is actually octal which means you had the values from 0 to 47 (octal) or 0 to 39 (decimal). From the "RT-11 Mini-Reference Manual" (March 1983), space = 0, 'A' = 1, 'B' = 2, ..., 'Z' = 32, '$' = 33, '.' = 34, 35 is unused, '0' = 36, '1' = 37, ..., '9' = 47 Given three characters, c1, c2 and c3, you'd encode them into RAD50 by converting them to their numeric values then doing the calculation: (c1*40 + c2)*40 + c3 So "AAA" would be 003151 (in octal). -- john R. Latala jrlatala@golden.net ###### Message-ID: <3D840E7E.3C32BB89@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1032057589 12.237.69.162 (Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:39:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:39:49 GMT Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:39:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.news2me.com!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116708 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > wrote in message news:alvf6l$evp$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > > >DG's RDOS also had 8.3 filenames and in unix the concept doesn't even exist. > > >Unix allows a dot in a filename but it has no meaning for the OS itself. > > > > That's another breakage in standard usage, IMO. The extension > > had a definite mean, had standards established, and was a > > remarkably useful way to organize and manage files. > > Actually, while it may not mean anything to the Unix *kernel*, > the file extension does tend to mean things to compilers and > the like. > > The MacOS through HFS (hierarchical file system) allows one > or more dots in a filename, but uses a separate mechanism > to determine type of a file, as well as the application > resposible for files of a given type. These are additional > fields in the directory. And, while I have no idea whether > you can refer to these fields in the underlying Unix shell > found in OS X, in the GUI shell, you can issue a search for > files of a specified type and creator. > MacOS and Unix allow a file named with *nothing* but dots if you want... On the Mac, file names can contain most characters, except the colon (:). MacOS uses the colon as a directory separator in path names. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:40 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 56 Message-ID: <1032032579snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1032090700 2531 10.0.0.1 (15 Sep 2002 11:51:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17qXwB-0000eg-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:39 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 55 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116715 In article jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article , > Adam Fairbrother wrote: > > ..and a "RAD50". > > RAD50 was simply a "formatting" scheme and was used by the > assemblers when they output *.REL files to save memory, disk > space, etc. Now I bet you'll have to ask what a *.REL file is. I'd hardly call it a "formatting scheme", unless you also view Base64 and uuencoding as "formatting schemes". No one seems to have told Adam much about what RAD50 does, so I'll make an attempt (old DEC hands feel free to shoot me down): essentially, it's a mechanism for compressing data (conventionally, the set of character codes that are used for filenames, symbols in assembler code, etc) into fewer bits than would be consumed in ASCII (or any of the 6- or 7-bit character set codes utilized by some DEC computer architectures). There were a total of 40 different characters that could be represented; these included the digits 0--9, the upper-case letters A--Z, the period, the dollar, the underscore, and (IIRC) the hyphen (or was it the space?). Each character was given its "RAD50 code" in the range 0--39. If Adam tries the arithmetic, he'll find that three such codes can fit into a 16- bit word (39*40^2+39*40+39 = 63999 < 65536). The name RAD50 was used, despite the fact that the arithmetic was being performed in radix-40, because 40 decimal is 50 octal; and in those days we ALL of us used to "think" in octal, hexadecimal not yet having been invented :-) I know that operating systems such as RSX-11M and RT-11 on the 16-bit DEC architectures used to take advantage of RAD50 to pack the six letters of an assembler or compiler identifier (aka "symbol") into two 16-bit words. I also remember being gob-smacked by the elegance of the code for performing this packing operation (since we had the advantage in those days of the source assembler code of RSX-11M being delivered with the computer, and hence could *read* programs and appreciate them); IIRC, the operations of packing three characters into a word, or unpacking them, was performed in about 20 bytes of machine-code. However, I don't see that RAD50 would have any bearing upon an 8+3 filenaming system; even with the 36-bit DEC architectures, it takes more than one word to be able to encode 8 characters into RAD50. Indeed, I suspect that the 9+3 schemes of the PDP-11 operating systems, and the early VMS on the 32-bit machines, arose from packing 9+3 characters into four 16-bit (or two 32-bit) words. So where Larry got the idea of only EIGHT characters before the dot eludes me (unless something in CP/M stole the ninth character for some other purpose). -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 35 Message-ID: <1032034123snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1032090702 2541 10.0.0.1 (15 Sep 2002 11:51:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17qXwD-0000eg-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:41 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116713 In article hvlems@iae.nl "Hans Vlems" writes: > RAD50 is more a coding (compression) technique. It translates values into a > radix-50 system and the neat thing is that you can put 3 radix-50 symbols in > a single byte. Errm, that's radix FORTY $40_10 = 50_8$; and one can put three radix-40 symbols into a *double* byte. > 8.3 filenames were used by DEC operating systems. OS8, RT-11 and RSX spring > to mind. RT-11 and RSX (and, later, VMS) used NINE+three filenames. (VMS from V4.0 onwards used 39+39.) > IIRC OS8 (runs on the PDP-8 platform) dates from the mid 70's. Mid-1960s, more like; I first remember playing with a PDP-8 down in the cellar of Imperial College in the summer of 1966. > DG's RDOS also had 8.3 filenames and in unix the concept doesn't even exist. Didn't the DG Nova range (the only ones with which I've had a passing acquaintance) also use a 9+3 scheme, not 8+3? I do remember that RADOS on the Elliott 905 series used a 6+3 scheme, using radix-64 characters with three in each of its 18-bit words. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:43 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1032034511snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1032090703 2550 10.0.0.1 (15 Sep 2002 11:51:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17qXwE-0000eg-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:51:42 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116714 In article <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> dougq@ixnayamspay.com writes: > The MacOS through HFS (hierarchical file system) allows one > or more dots in a filename, but uses a separate mechanism > to determine type of a file, as well as the application > resposible for files of a given type. These are additional > fields in the directory. And, while I have no idea whether > you can refer to these fields in the underlying Unix shell > found in OS X, in the GUI shell, you can issue a search for > files of a specified type and creator. OS/2 does (essentially) the same thing, but in an even more elegant fashion, since the entire WPS (workplace shell) is object oriented, and some of the properties of an object can associate it with one (or more) relevant applications. It can even manage this with simple file systems such as FAT-16, although it does it much more efficiently with HPFS or JFS, since with those the EAs (extended attributes) don't need to be placed in a special hidden file globally, but are within the individual file itself (rather like HFS's "resource fork"). -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #123 Lines: 41 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.108.156 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1032101476 24.128.108.156 (Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:51:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:51:16 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:51:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116670 Adam Fairbrother writes: > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the >history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through >some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it >isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M >OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 >bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). When I first saw CP/M, I was struck by how much it looked like TOPS-10, but heard later (I don't recall the quality of the source) that it was patterned after RT-11, which was patterned after TOPS-10. That seemed to make a lot more sense as both were aimed at small systems. CP/M V1 even used ". " as the command prompt ala RT-11 and TOPS-10. As for the 8.3, look at the format of a CP/M directory entry. 16 bytes so they fill a disk block, not RAD50, 8 bytes for name, 3 for extension, and I forget the rest, but it includes pointers to the data. Your job as "punishment" for referring to VMS on the -10. Big files linked to additional directory blocks to refer to the disk clusters that made up the file. ... I'll agree fully >that there was a significant influence from the DEC OS's, but you cannot >tie it to any one because he did not copy any one of them in detail." -- >Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com). The same post states that he >choose 8.3 just because. Just because it fit well into the architecture at hand. Reverse engineering the decision to use 8.3 is pointless unless you compare architectures, design goals and costs along with looking at the OS family tree. Of course, the trivial solution, "just ask Gary" is no longer available. -Ric Werme -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Ric Werme http://ewerme.home.attbi.com/ | ewerme@xxxxx.com see also http://dcyf.home.attbi.com/ | Change xxxxx to attbi ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: 15 Sep 2002 14:23:09 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.144 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032124989 11119 127.0.0.1 (15 Sep 2002 21:23:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2002 21:23:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116732 Ric Werme wrote in message news:... > When I first saw CP/M, I was struck by how much it looked like > TOPS-10, but heard later (I don't recall the quality of the source) > that it was patterned after RT-11, which was patterned after TOPS-10. The RT-11 Historical Overview states: The year 1971 was an exciting time...A popular operating system for the PDP-8, called OS/8, was the design model for the new PDP-11 operating system, tentatively called OS-11... ...in the fall of 1972...the groundwork was laid to make OS-11 compatible with OS/8 and TOPS-10... OS-11 was renamed first to RTPS-11 (Real-Time Programming System), then to RT-11 (Real Time). Version 1 of RT-11 was completed in the fall of 1973. In my opinion, RT-11 V1 was more like OS/8 than TOPS-10. But the supplied interchange utilities generally worked harder to allow interchange with TOPS-10 systems; I believe the first build was a cross-compile done from TOPS-10 but I do not have all those sources. (OS/8 was also probably developed under TOPS-10). Both OS/8 and TOPS-10 can be traced back to various PDP-6 monitors, which can be traced back to PDP-1 monitors. IIRC PIP grew on the PDP-6. That gives a family tree like: /---> OS/8 -->- PDP-1 ---> PDP-6 ---> TOPS-10 -/ \ monitor monitor \ \ \----------------+--> RT-11 And I would include both OS/8 and RT-11 in the CP/M ancestry, with no special attention given to either as there were other obvious influences. The most obvious of which was the Intel IOBYTE :-) Tim. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Mon, 16 Sep 02 08:54:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaJoZhBEuiYGqJa94vmSxHn5/Q5bFmrFVv3mB2jvN4em/63eN5U6YQY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2002 10:08:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!jpix!giga-nspixp2!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-175 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116756 In article , shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: >Ric Werme wrote in message news:... >> When I first saw CP/M, I was struck by how much it looked like >> TOPS-10, but heard later (I don't recall the quality of the source) >> that it was patterned after RT-11, which was patterned after TOPS-10. > >The RT-11 Historical Overview states: > > The year 1971 was an exciting time...A popular operating system > for the PDP-8, called OS/8, was the design model for the new PDP-11 > operating system, tentatively called OS-11... > > ...in the fall of 1972...the groundwork was laid to make OS-11 > compatible with OS/8 and TOPS-10... > > OS-11 was renamed first to RTPS-11 (Real-Time Programming System), > then to RT-11 (Real Time). Version 1 of RT-11 was completed in the > fall of 1973. > >In my opinion, RT-11 V1 was more like OS/8 than TOPS-10. But the >supplied interchange utilities generally worked harder to allow >interchange with TOPS-10 systems; I believe the first build was >a cross-compile done from TOPS-10 but I do not have all those sources. > >(OS/8 was also probably developed under TOPS-10). > >Both OS/8 and TOPS-10 can be traced back to various PDP-6 monitors, >which can be traced back to PDP-1 monitors. IIRC PIP grew on the PDP-6. > >That gives a family tree like: > > /---> OS/8 -->- > PDP-1 ---> PDP-6 ---> TOPS-10 -/ \ > monitor monitor \ \ > \----------------+--> RT-11 > >And I would include both OS/8 and RT-11 in the CP/M ancestry, with no >special attention given to either as there were other obvious influences. >The most obvious of which was the Intel IOBYTE :-) It should also be noted that, in those days, developers were not tied to just one system. They were assigned to develop an OS as the project came up. So a guy who just implemented a whiz-bang on the -10 would be assigned to the -8s current project. He certainly wouldn't have started all over from scratch. The guys also had a habit of liking certain tools, like TECO, DDT, and PIP. In addition, a lot of the code was typed in by these fingers when they were working in the group called Tape Preparation. Most of our work was done on the -10 and then either dumped on paper tape (for -8s) or FILEXed to a 11-formatted DECtape. I think that the fact that one group did a lot of the grunt work paved the way for a consistent style of naming conventions, doc presentation conventions (oh, gawd, did we have the rules about that), and stuff like that. Also there weren't all that many machines available for programmers to play with. All of you PC-affected people may make an erroneous assumption that everybody had their own toy. Not true. Developers would "steal" time from the machines Tape Prep had access to until it was pointed out to them that they had a choice: use the machine or get their data request fulfilled. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Mon, 16 Sep 02 08:55:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbBoJSKwjoeN2pVvqWm2O0QxcabLJyR9kjd3sm7Bngq2BQzwE2QYbNR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2002 10:09:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!jpix!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-175 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116755 In article , Ric Werme wrote: >shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > >>Ric Werme wrote in message news:... >>> When I first saw CP/M, I was struck by how much it looked like >>> TOPS-10, but heard later (I don't recall the quality of the source) >>> that it was patterned after RT-11, which was patterned after TOPS-10. > >>The RT-11 Historical Overview states: > >Nore believeable stuff than some on this thread. > >>In my opinion, RT-11 V1 was more like OS/8 than TOPS-10. > >I should've included people in the list of things to keep in mind when >doing computer anthropology. > >>(OS/8 was also probably developed under TOPS-10). > >I didn't join DEC until 1974, after all that came into existance, but >hung around with some of the OS/8 and RT-11 principals. We still get >together at a monthly dinner, but under the guise of Alliant Computer >alumni. > >Both -8 and -11 people used TOPS-10, No. Some of the -8 people WERE -10 people. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Mon, 16 Sep 02 10:17:53 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <8327b166.0209140959.7ed7b47c@posting.google.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaz85kdIlEughgQYnHJcyw8iljpkT4K/HHLNuucD5feoViEPgirkyp7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2002 11:31:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!newspeer.lavaseals.co.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newshub1.kdd1.nap.home.ne.jp!news.home.ne.jp!giga-nspixp2!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-175 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116763 In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Tim Shoppa : >> 2) First versions of VMS used 9.3, just like RSX-11 and its filesystem >> ODS-1. > >Didn't VMS also originally use ODS-1, at least until the more familiar >ODS-2 arrived on the scene, or was ODS-2 there from the start? > >> 3) VMS doesn't run on a PDP-10. > >And I hope Barb hasn't seen that. :) I didn't get upset at all. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: From: Ric Werme X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #123 Lines: 49 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.108.156 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1032136171 24.128.108.156 (Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:29:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:29:31 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:29:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116742 shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: >Ric Werme wrote in message news:... >> When I first saw CP/M, I was struck by how much it looked like >> TOPS-10, but heard later (I don't recall the quality of the source) >> that it was patterned after RT-11, which was patterned after TOPS-10. >The RT-11 Historical Overview states: Nore believeable stuff than some on this thread. >In my opinion, RT-11 V1 was more like OS/8 than TOPS-10. I should've included people in the list of things to keep in mind when doing computer anthropology. >(OS/8 was also probably developed under TOPS-10). I didn't join DEC until 1974, after all that came into existance, but hung around with some of the OS/8 and RT-11 principals. We still get together at a monthly dinner, but under the guise of Alliant Computer alumni. Both -8 and -11 people used TOPS-10, so while I won't argue that the direct link is TOPS-10 to OS/8 to RT11, the dotted links were pretty substantial. I left the -8 out to keeping the focus a little tighter. Also, I've never writtena PDP-8 program. (Gasp!) But I am sort of familiar with its 8 instructions and some of the tricks with OPR. >That gives a family tree like: > /---> OS/8 -->- > PDP-1 ---> PDP-6 ---> TOPS-10 -/ \ > monitor monitor \ \ > \----------------+--> RT-11 Yep. A little topiary there. :-) >And I would include both OS/8 and RT-11 in the CP/M ancestry, with no >special attention given to either as there were other obvious influences. >The most obvious of which was the Intel IOBYTE :-) -Ric -- There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Ric Werme http://ewerme.home.attbi.com/ | ewerme@xxxxx.com see also http://dcyf.home.attbi.com/ | Change xxxxx to attbi ###### From: "Hank Oredson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: DOS history question Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:47:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.81.209.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1032137247 12.81.209.205 (Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:47:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:47:27 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-sterling!news-in-sterling.newsfeed.com!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116765 I'm a bit curious where ISIS (Intel Intellec? Multibus?) fits into everything. AFAIR I first ran across it just before CP/M appeared. Another branch from RT-11? -- ... Hank Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net "Ric Werme" wrote in message news:E71h9.486704$UU1.77703@sccrnsc03... > Adam Fairbrother writes: > > > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the > >history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through > >some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it > >isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M > >OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 > >bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). > > When I first saw CP/M, I was struck by how much it looked like > TOPS-10, but heard later (I don't recall the quality of the source) > that it was patterned after RT-11, which was patterned after TOPS-10. > That seemed to make a lot more sense as both were aimed at small > systems. CP/M V1 even used ". " as the command prompt ala RT-11 and > TOPS-10. > > As for the 8.3, look at the format of a CP/M directory entry. 16 > bytes so they fill a disk block, not RAD50, 8 bytes for name, 3 for > extension, and I forget the rest, but it includes pointers to the > data. Your job as "punishment" for referring to VMS on the -10. Big > files linked to additional directory blocks to refer to the disk > clusters that made up the file. > > ... I'll agree fully > >that there was a significant influence from the DEC OS's, but you cannot > >tie it to any one because he did not copy any one of them in detail." -- > >Tim Shoppa (shoppa@trailing-edge.com). The same post states that he > >choose 8.3 just because. > > Just because it fit well into the architecture at hand. Reverse engineering > the decision to use 8.3 is pointless unless you compare architectures, > design goals and costs along with looking at the OS family tree. > Of course, the trivial solution, "just ask Gary" is no longer available. > > -Ric Werme > -- > There are 10 kinds of people in the world: > Those who understand binary, and those who don't. > > Ric Werme http://ewerme.home.attbi.com/ | ewerme@xxxxx.com > see also http://dcyf.home.attbi.com/ | Change xxxxx to attbi ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:09:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1032156558 24.71.223.147 (Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:09:18 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:09:18 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!ps01-chi1!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116806 On 15 Sep 2002 14:23:09 -0700, shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: >Ric Werme wrote in message news:... >> When I first saw CP/M, I was struck by how much it looked like >> TOPS-10, but heard later (I don't recall the quality of the source) >> that it was patterned after RT-11, which was patterned after TOPS-10. >And I would include both OS/8 and RT-11 in the CP/M ancestry, with no >special attention given to either as there were other obvious influences. >The most obvious of which was the Intel IOBYTE :-) And also CP(/67?) and CMS from which batch submission, the standard I/O devices: CON, RDR, PRT, PUN, drive letters, and perhaps the virtual I/O interface (BDOS/BIOS) ideas may have come. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:17:34 +0100 Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1032164254 26838 62.49.243.90 (16 Sep 2002 08:17:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:17:34 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1105 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1105 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116784 "Adam Fairbrother" wrote in message news:Xns9289171BE97A8NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the > history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through > some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it > isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M > OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 > bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). Hmm... We did this back in april most recently See: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3cb1a341.65680%40news.ocis.net The summary is that no one knows for sure. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <8327b166.0209140959.7ed7b47c@posting.google.com> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: X-Inktomi-Trace: pc3-oxfd1-5-cust169.oxf.cable.ntl.com 1032173999 8547 62.254.140.169 (16 Sep 2002 10:59:59 GMT) Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:54:23 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.128.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net 1032174000 80.3.128.5 (Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:00:00 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:00:00 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!borium.box.nl!aotearoa.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nerim.net!teaser.fr!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116754 According to Tim Shoppa : > 2) First versions of VMS used 9.3, just like RSX-11 and its filesystem > ODS-1. Didn't VMS also originally use ODS-1, at least until the more familiar ODS-2 arrived on the scene, or was ODS-2 there from the start? > 3) VMS doesn't run on a PDP-10. And I hope Barb hasn't seen that. :) Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: shoppa@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: 16 Sep 2002 08:00:43 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <8327b166.0209140959.7ed7b47c@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1032188443 8980 127.0.0.1 (16 Sep 2002 15:00:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Sep 2002 15:00:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116801 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote in message news:... > According to Tim Shoppa : > > 2) First versions of VMS used 9.3, just like RSX-11 and its filesystem > > ODS-1. > > Didn't VMS also originally use ODS-1, at least until the more familiar > ODS-2 arrived on the scene, or was ODS-2 there from the start? Yes, it was ODS-1. (Although there was some slight divergence between ODS-1 in VMS and ODS-1 in RSX and ODS-1 in IAS.) The old ODS-1 9.3 limits still show in some fundamental VMS filenames, even though those limits have been irrelevant for decades. For example, the install procedure is still VMSINSTAL.COM and accounting info is maintained in ACCOUNTNG.DAT. I guess it's tough to change the names of such fundamental resources when they're referenced in so many places in hard and softcopy, and even etched into many system manager's spinal cords :-) (For most recent software, they've moved away from VMSINSTAL.COM and into a PCSI-based installation method, but I think VMSINSTAL is still there.) Tim. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Tue, 17 Sep 02 11:00:41 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYIlPlFBgTiF5iPK+iP5EW1BBa8zqUNu3FcrNBw1+YvGHGy6zdKfysV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2002 12:14:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-92 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116872 In article , "Hans Vlems" wrote: > > schreef in bericht news:alvf6l$evp$3@bob.news.rcn.net... >[snip] >> >VMS are products of Digital Equipment Corp. >> >To return to the 8.3 question, (AFAIK) VMS had 9.3 in >> >the beginning >> >> Was it 9? I don't seem to be able to remember what 11M could do. > >Well actually that's what it was in 3.0. Now RSX-11M was also 9.3 so I >guessed that 9.3 must have been there from the beginning. With compatibility >in mind it really doesn't make sense to create problems with filenames, >right? > >> > ...and it >> >was later modified to 39.39. >> >> After TOPS-20. >> >Yes >> >> >RAD50 is more a coding (compression) technique. >> >It translates values into a >> >radix-50 system and the neat thing is that you can put >> >3 radix-50 symbols in a single byte. >> >> You should probably define byte here. > >?? Byte sizes were left as an exercise for the programmer. You really meant word. I think you caught the slip of the bit. > >> >8.3 filenames were used by DEC operating systems. >> >OS8, RT-11 and RSX spring to mind. > >That was a mistake since RSX obviously used 9.3, and version numbers. >Perhaps the OS's that did not have version numbers also used 8.3 ? This is a real sore point to me. Whatever idiot called those file revision numbers "versions" should be shot. Version had a definite definition within DEC and had to do with communicating edit levels of software. We had strict rules about when and what versions fields should be increased. I don't remember 11M having revision capabilities until after TENEX came around. Note that TENEX was in residience before the PHBs decided it was TOPS-20. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3D8658B0.28AA631C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1032207655 12.237.69.162 (Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:20:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:20:55 GMT Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 01:36:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116907 Peter Ibbotson wrote: > > "Adam Fairbrother" wrote in message > news:Xns9289171BE97A8NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... > > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the > > history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through > > some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it > > isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M > > OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 > > bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). > > Hmm... We did this back in april most recently > > See: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3cb1a341.65680%40news.ocis.net > The summary is that no one knows for sure. > Perhaps it is just a recurring troll... I guess we could ask the poster to "read the FAQ" (RTFM), but I do *not* think that really has a FAQ as such... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.72.150 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question From: Adam Fairbrother References: <3D8658B0.28AA631C@ev1.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 38 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 02:39:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.67.253.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1032230347 24.67.253.205 (Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:39:07 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:39:07 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in.superfeed.net!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116878 Charles Richmond wrote in news:3D8658B0.28AA631C@ev1.net: > Peter Ibbotson wrote: >> >> "Adam Fairbrother" wrote in message >> news:Xns9289171BE97A8NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... >> > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the >> > history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading >> > through some old messages in google groups, and found a partial >> > answer, but it isn't something that I understand all that well. >> > Something about a CP/M OS refrenced when making DOS as well as >> > something to do with the PDP10(6 bit chars), and RAD50(Octal >> > packing). >> >> Hmm... We did this back in april most recently >> >> See: >> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3cb1a341.65680%40news.ocis.net >> The summary is that no one knows for sure. >> > Perhaps it is just a recurring troll... I guess we could ask > the poster to "read the FAQ" (RTFM), but I do *not* think > that really has a FAQ as such... > Well I'd like to think i'm not a troll, (especially since that was my first post in this group), but I did go and take a look back at that google groups link and Gene was/still is in the same course as myself, just in an earlier intake. I wouldn't have posted the question had I found that first, but the oly 8.3 related info that I had previously found on Google groups was something from "sonya blade", again asking the same question in comp.os.cpm and i just thought that the good people in folkelore would have an answer, as the co.cpm people were rather ambiguous with their replies. I'm sorry If I've offended anyone. And to everyone that contribted a reply thank you very much. -Adam ###### Message-ID: <3D86E7F9.8A430376@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <3D8658B0.28AA631C@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1032244337 12.237.69.162 (Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:32:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:32:17 GMT Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:32:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sdd.hp.com!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116908 Adam Fairbrother wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote in > news:3D8658B0.28AA631C@ev1.net: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Perhaps it is just a recurring troll... I guess we could ask > > the poster to "read the FAQ" (RTFM), but I do *not* think > > that really has a FAQ as such... > > > > Well I'd like to think i'm not a troll, (especially since that was > my first post in this group), but I did go and take a look back at that > google groups link and Gene was/still is in the same course as myself, > just in an earlier intake. I wouldn't have posted the question had I > found that first, but the oly 8.3 related info that I had previously > found on Google groups was something from "sonya blade", again asking > the same question in comp.os.cpm and i just thought that the good people > in folkelore would have an answer, as the co.cpm people were rather > ambiguous with their replies. I'm sorry If I've offended anyone. And to > everyone that contribted a reply thank you very much. > In fact, IMHO it is a good thing that you are interested in such questions. I have read all the replies on the 8.3 file names, and I still do *not* have a good answer for it. And in fact, it is nice to see an "on-topic" post occasionally in ... ;-) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1032244825 12.237.69.162 (Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:40:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:40:25 GMT Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:40:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!panix!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116912 Peter Ibbotson wrote: > > "Adam Fairbrother" wrote in message > news:Xns9289171BE97A8NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... > > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the > > history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through > > some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it > > isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M > > OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 > > bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). > > Hmm... We did this back in april most recently > > See: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3cb1a341.65680%40news.ocis.net > The summary is that no one knows for sure. > Perhaps it is just a recurring troll... I guess we could ask the poster to "read the FAQ" (RTFM), but I do *not* think that really has a FAQ as such... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 09:40:56 +0100 Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3D8658B0.28AA631C@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1032252057 18708 62.49.243.90 (17 Sep 2002 08:40:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:40:57 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1105 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1105 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116897 "Adam Fairbrother" wrote in message news:Xns928BC804C2011NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... > > Well I'd like to think i'm not a troll, (especially since that was > my first post in this group), but I did go and take a look back at that > google groups link and Gene was/still is in the same course as myself, > just in an earlier intake. I wouldn't have posted the question had I > found that first, but the oly 8.3 related info that I had previously > found on Google groups was something from "sonya blade", again asking > the same question in comp.os.cpm and i just thought that the good people > in folkelore would have an answer, as the co.cpm people were rather > ambiguous with their replies. I'm sorry If I've offended anyone. And to > everyone that contribted a reply thank you very much. > Sorry adam I wasn't accusing you of being a troll, however I was pointing out that last time we did this wasn't all that long ago. (Funnily enough googling for 8.3 doesn't give good answers) You are asking in the right place. There is a FAQ for this group at http://wilson.best.vwh.net/faq/ but its not been updated for ages. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:45:41 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 25 Message-ID: <1032213171snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1032284741 26323 10.0.0.1 (17 Sep 2002 17:45:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:45:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17rMPn-0006qG-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:45:40 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116915 In article hvlems@iae.nl "Hans Vlems" writes: > schreef in bericht news:alvf6l$evp$3@bob.news.rcn.net... > > > > You should probably define byte here. > > ?? What part of "define byte here" do you not understand? There is nothing magical about a byte containing eight bits of data; I've known of machines with 6, 7, 8 OR 9-bit bytes at different times over the past 40 years. Why do you suppose that all the Internet Standards (as promulgated in RFCs) refer to "octets"? [Hint: it's not done to keep the Frogs happy.] And as has also been said elsewhere in this thread, by myself and others, RAD50 squeezes three characters into SIXTEEN bits, not eight. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Wed, 18 Sep 02 10:04:22 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZVlbqRBOFVn3PRy+wYgCtVw7ZP3hxSsaskZaNBTyCjOiesTcP8bIGr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2002 11:18:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116994 In article , "Hans Vlems" wrote: >> >> >RAD50 is more a coding (compression) technique. >> >> >It translates values into a >> >> >radix-50 system and the neat thing is that you can put >> >> >3 radix-50 symbols in a single byte. >> >> >> >> You should probably define byte here. >> > >> >?? >> >> Byte sizes were left as an exercise for the programmer. >> You really meant word. I think you caught the slip of the >> bit. > >It did, eventually.... >As somebody else pointed out, the definition of the word byte depends on >machine context. On the PDP-11 a byte contained 8 bits, a word 16 bits. Nope. A byte size was defined by the programmer (usually the largest was the word size of the machine). On the PDP-10, I could define bytes to be 1-36 bits just by setting up my byte pointer appropriately. There were five instructions available: 1. use present pointer and load byte into AC (LDB) 2. use present pointer deposit byte from AC in memory (DPB) 3. increment byte pointer and load byte into AC (ILDB) 4. increment byte pointer and deposit byte in memory (IDPB) 5. increment byte pointer (IBP) > ..OTOH >a B6700 had 48 bit words. > >> > >> >> >8.3 filenames were used by DEC operating systems. >> >> >OS8, RT-11 and RSX spring to mind. >> > >> >That was a mistake since RSX obviously used 9.3, and version numbers. >> >Perhaps the OS's that did not have version numbers also used 8.3 ? >> >> This is a real sore point to me. Whatever idiot called those >> file revision numbers "versions" should be shot. Version had >> a definite definition within DEC and had to do with communicating >> edit levels of software. We had strict rules about when and what >> versions fields should be increased. > >IIRC the early VMS documentation actually used the term "file revision >numbers ". Right. Somebody "fixed" that. I don't who. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Wed, 18 Sep 02 10:07:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSValcRBaV8xJCUh0KWY5644qEXjsibFZXHGHSUB47QOTRsNzwfWjkBr4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2002 11:21:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117003 In article , Adam Fairbrother wrote: >My theroy is this: > > In systems that used 6.3, which i'm assuming was the file naming >convention to pre-date 8.3, RAD50 was used to pack the name into 2 16- >bit words, You're making the mistake that the one had anything to do with the other. It didn't. RADIX50 was used to make symbol tables; do not confuse symbols with filenames. This is another case where people are confusing data and code and their organization mechanisms. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Thu, 19 Sep 02 11:28:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZqyE7i0l+gmquW9OxdKmjgQbQRMOyZEWyl6JhLI2GfMOW7uo5Yg2qF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Sep 2002 12:42:52 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!jpix!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-14 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117042 In article <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com>, Eric Sosman wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article , >> Adam Fairbrother wrote: >> >> >> >My theroy is this: >> > >> > In systems that used 6.3, which i'm assuming was the file naming >> >convention to pre-date 8.3, RAD50 was used to pack the name into 2 16- >> >bit words, >> >> >> >> You're making the mistake that the one had anything to do with >> the other. It didn't. RADIX50 was used to make symbol tables; >> do not confuse symbols with filenames. > > Symbols are not file names, granted. But file names and >pieces thereof *were* stored on disk in RAD50 encoding in at >least some DEC operating systems. PDP-11 DOS, for sure, and >I seem to recall this was also the case for RSX-11. > > I used to speculate about whether RAD50 encoding of file >name components produced a net decrease or a net increase in >disk space usage. Oh, I'd say a net increase. For some reason, PDP-11s were just littered with itty bitty files. I never quite understood why; perhaps, it was just the nature of the beast. If a site wanted big files it bought a big machine. > ..Sure, the encoding saved a few bytes per >file name. But at the same time, it required practically >every program to include encoding and/or decoding routines >amounting to perhaps a hundred bytes. Yup. And that is a pain in the patootie. > .. Even on systems where >programs were able to share a single copy of the hundred >bytes, each program needed extra code to call those routines, >separate buffers for the internal and external representations, >and so on. You have to realize that those -11 operating systems were not designed for "timesharing". They were designed with single usage in mind. > .. Personally, I felt this use of RAD50 was probably >ill-advised -- but ill-advised or not, it was used thus. Never underestimate a bitty bytey programming style. In the bad ol' days, it was useful but completely unmaintainable. As hardware constraints eased up, maintenance became the commodity causing the bitty code to get rewritten (or at least symobolized). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.72.150 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question From: Adam Fairbrother References: Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 35 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:36:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.67.253.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1032334606 24.67.253.205 (Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:36:46 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:36:46 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!151.189.0.75.MISMATCH!newsfeed.arcor-online.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!24.71.223.12.MISMATCH!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117046 Well thank you all for your support in this little bit of knowlage, and based on what information all of you have supplied, i'd like to bounce a therory around on this whole 8.3 thing, and see if you guys can tear it up too shreds or if it actually holds. Even though i'm sure it's full of holes mabey we'll be able to come up with a concrete answer, and you won't have to go through all of this again the next time some one pokes their head in here and just reference them to this thread on google. My theroy is this: In systems that used 6.3, which i'm assuming was the file naming convention to pre-date 8.3, RAD50 was used to pack the name into 2 16- bit words, but where in there dose it identify the diffrence between filename and extention. unless i'm completely off my rockers, which i'm starting to think I am (i'm not sure that i understand this whole rad50 thing... but), there must be something in memory that points to the extention as being a seperate entity from the file name. I'm thinking this because I don't belive that the peroid was used in the rad50 encoding, hence encoding only 9 characters 6+3 I'm probally wrong, but thats what i'm going on. Using 8.3 if peroid was included in the encoding that would make 12 characters to be encoded (somehow i got it stuck in my mind that groupings of three are important). so if I'm right (probally not) then that leaves 12 characters and no need to point to the extention with a seperate word. Hence the same amount of memory used, but with more description. now like I said, I'm mostly likely completely off the wall with this one and most likely deserve to be shot, but I got this crazy idea while at work today and need to have it shot down (the prof won't do it for about 4 months) before I can really continue with my life as a "normal" person. Thanks in advance -Adam Fairbrother ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.81.72.150 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question From: Adam Fairbrother References: <3d836633$1_3@news.iglou.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Lines: 6 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:40:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.67.253.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1032334823 24.67.253.205 (Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:40:23 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:40:23 MDT Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!eusc.inter.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!24.71.223.12.MISMATCH!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117053 Just to seperate this qyuick question from the previous post, anyone know what STIFF is? I belive that my teacher mentioned that it was important Thanks in advance -Adam ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Bill Marcum Subject: Re: DOS history question References: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts4-31.iglou.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: lou-ts4-31.iglou.com Message-ID: <3d88599b_1@news.iglou.com> Date: 18 Sep 2002 06:46:51 -0400 X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1032346011 lou-ts4-31.iglou.com (18 Sep 2002 06:46:51 -0400) Lines: 26 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.255.239.183 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116942 On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:36:46 GMT, Adam Fairbrother wrote: > My theroy is this: > > In systems that used 6.3, which i'm assuming was the file naming > convention to pre-date 8.3, RAD50 was used to pack the name into 2 16- > bit words, but where in there dose it identify the diffrence between > filename and extention. unless i'm completely off my rockers, which i'm > starting to think I am (i'm not sure that i understand this whole rad50 > thing... but), there must be something in memory that points to the > extention as being a seperate entity from the file name. I'm thinking > this because I don't belive that the peroid was used in the rad50 > encoding, hence encoding only 9 characters 6+3 I'm probally wrong, but > thats what i'm going on. Using 8.3 if peroid was included in the > encoding that would make 12 characters to be encoded (somehow i got it > stuck in my mind that groupings of three are important). so if I'm > right (probally not) then that leaves 12 characters and no need to point > to the extention with a seperate word. Hence the same amount of memory > used, but with more description. In the internal representation of a 6.3 or 8.3 filename, the period doesn't have to be stored. The filename is stored as a fixed length string with the extension in the last three positions, for example the name "FOO.BAR" would be stored as "FOO BAR" . ###### From: Eric Sosman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:50:52 -0400 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tardis.east.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!eastnews1.East.Sun.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117161 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > Adam Fairbrother wrote: > > > >My theroy is this: > > > > In systems that used 6.3, which i'm assuming was the file naming > >convention to pre-date 8.3, RAD50 was used to pack the name into 2 16- > >bit words, > > > > You're making the mistake that the one had anything to do with > the other. It didn't. RADIX50 was used to make symbol tables; > do not confuse symbols with filenames. Symbols are not file names, granted. But file names and pieces thereof *were* stored on disk in RAD50 encoding in at least some DEC operating systems. PDP-11 DOS, for sure, and I seem to recall this was also the case for RSX-11. I used to speculate about whether RAD50 encoding of file name components produced a net decrease or a net increase in disk space usage. Sure, the encoding saved a few bytes per file name. But at the same time, it required practically every program to include encoding and/or decoding routines amounting to perhaps a hundred bytes. Even on systems where programs were able to share a single copy of the hundred bytes, each program needed extra code to call those routines, separate buffers for the internal and external representations, and so on. Personally, I felt this use of RAD50 was probably ill-advised -- but ill-advised or not, it was used thus. -- Eric.Sosman@sun.com ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:43:55 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 77 Message-ID: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1032374635 7577 10.0.0.1 (18 Sep 2002 18:43:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:43:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17rjni-0001xc-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:43:51 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 76 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news-x2.support.nl!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117158 In article quickness_inc@hotmail.com "Adam Fairbrother" writes: > Well thank you all for your support in this little bit of knowlage, and > based on what information all of you have supplied, i'd like to bounce a > therory around on this whole 8.3 thing, and see if you guys can tear it > up too shreds or if it actually holds. Even though i'm sure it's full > of holes mabey we'll be able to come up with a concrete answer, and you > won't have to go through all of this again the next time some one pokes > their head in here and just reference them to this thread on google. > > My theroy is this: > > In systems that used 6.3, which i'm assuming was the file naming > convention to pre-date 8.3, RAD50 was used to pack the name into 2 16- ^ 3 > bit words, but where in there dose it identify the diffrence between > filename and extention. unless i'm completely off my rockers, which i'm > starting to think I am (i'm not sure that i understand this whole rad50 > thing... but), there must be something in memory that points to the > extention as being a seperate entity from the file name. I'm thinking > this because I don't belive that the peroid was used in the rad50 > encoding, hence encoding only 9 characters 6+3 I'm probally wrong, but Correct; using RAD50, the six letters in the "name" part could be compressed into two 16-bit words, and the three in the "extension" into a further 16-bit word. No need to use the period to delimit one from the other /internally/; programs could use the three words as an entity to reference the entire name, whilst those that needed to know the extension could look at the single word at offset word+2. Ditto for 9+3 names; these went happily into four 16-bit words (eight 8-bit bytes). > thats what i'm going on. Using 8.3 if peroid was included in the > encoding that would make 12 characters to be encoded (somehow i got it > stuck in my mind that groupings of three are important). so if I'm > right (probally not) then that leaves 12 characters and no need to point > to the extention with a seperate word. Hence the same amount of memory > used, but with more description. Actually it uses more memory. The salient point is that by now it was "cheaper" to use more memory (or disk space) than it was to perform the conversions from/to RAD50. Permitting each character of a filename to be represented internally as a single "byte" also allowed more "esoteric" characters to be permitted within a filename. So an 8+3 filename, including the period, could appear internally in a 12-byte structure. (Actually, I think you'll find, if you look at a FAT-16 directory with a disk utility, that the period is not actually encoded as a period, but rather as a space (or perhaps it's a NUL \0 --- it's a long time since I've done that, and I can't look now, because I only have HPFS and JFS partitions on this system). All the same, the "filename" occupies twelve bytes of a directory structure, and this makes more sense than having it occupying 13, since that might lead to all sorts of problems when other parts of the structure need to repesent 16- or 32-bit integers, and thus need to be aligned appropriately.) > now like I said, I'm mostly likely completely off the wall with > this one and most likely deserve to be shot, but I got this crazy idea > while at work today and need to have it shot down (the prof won't do it > for about 4 months) before I can really continue with my life as a > "normal" person. I think you've probably found a reasonable explanation; eight character "name", followed by a "filler byte" followed by a fixed three character extension. All in a twelve byte field. The only question remaining to be answered is WHY did Gary not just have a fixed nine character "name" part and imply the "filler"? -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:42:36 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Message-ID: <20020918214236.0f30caa7.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Sep 2002 20:37:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i0597.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=IZdl@lnN;0XU2l]DGP8aSQ1`\LnN2UYYQB2H37P0V^dUhC_lbVB6eN[_d2NLndadM] X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news-x2.support.nl!newsfeed.wxs.nl!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117117 On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:43:55 +0000 (UTC) bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: B> I think you've probably found a reasonable explanation; eight character Unfortunately it is wrong - (and something *is* the way I recall it). B> "name", followed by a "filler byte" followed by a fixed three character B> extension. All in a twelve byte field. The only question remaining to Make that an 11 byte field - the following is taken from http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/fcb.html. CP/M File Control Block The File Control Block is a 36-byte data structure (33 bytes in CP/M 1). It is laid out as follows: DR F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 T1 T2 T3 EX S1 S2 RC .FILENAMETYP... AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL AL ............... CR R0 R1 R2 .... The bytes in it have the following meanings: FCB+00h DR - Drive. 0 for default, 1-16 for A-P. In DOSPLUS, bit 7 can be set to indicate that the operation should work with subdirectories rather than files. FCB+01h Fn - Filename, 7-bit ASCII. The top bits of the filename bytes (usually referred to as F1' to F8') have the following meanings: F1'-F4' - User-defined attributes. Any program can use them in any way it likes. The filename in the disc directory has the corresponding bits set. F5'-F8' - Interface attributes. They modify the behaviour of various BDOS functions or indicate error conditions. In the directory these bits are always zero. FCB+09h Tn - Filetype, 7-bit ASCII. T1' to T3' have the following meanings: T1' - Read-Only. T2' - System (hidden). System files in user 0 can be opened from other user areas. T3' - Archive. Set if the file has not been changed since it was last copied. B> be answered is WHY did Gary not just have a fixed nine character "name" B> part and imply the "filler"? Because it was eight with an implied filler and even the spare bits got used (the directory entry and FCB layouts match). -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 18 Sep 2002 20:11:57 GMT Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-203-206.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1032379917 news.dial.pipex.com 8505 62.190.203.206 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116970 On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:43:55 +0000 (UTC), Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > >(Actually, I think you'll find, if you look at a FAT-16 directory with a >disk utility, that the period is not actually encoded as a period, but >rather as a space (or perhaps it's a NUL \0 --- it's a long time since >I've done that, and I can't look now, because I only have HPFS and JFS >partitions on this system). All the same, the "filename" occupies twelve >bytes of a directory structure, ISTR from when I was writing file handling in Forth that a DOS filename was stored as 8 ascii chars padded with spaces and the extension as 3 ascii chars (with the period _not_ stored), followed by 1 attribute byte. Making a total of 12 bytes... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: hoh@invalid.invalid (Goran Larsson) Subject: Re: DOS history question Message-ID: Organization: [1] + 5934 done /bin/rm -rf ~/ & X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test73 (May 24, 2000) References: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.244.213.111 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 1032381062 130.244.213.111 (Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:31:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:31:02 MET DST X-Sender: q-11932@isdn213-1-111.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:21:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116920 In article <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > I think you've probably found a reasonable explanation; eight character > "name", followed by a "filler byte" followed by a fixed three character > extension. All in a twelve byte field. The only question remaining to > be answered is WHY did Gary not just have a fixed nine character "name" > part and imply the "filler"? This is not a description of the CP/M directory format. The CP/M 2.2 directory entry is 32 bytes and starts with this: UN F1 F2 F3 F4 F5 F6 F7 F8 T1 T2 T3 where UN is a user number 0 to 15 (or 31) or 0xE5 if the file is erased, Fn is the 8 character filename, and Tn is the three character file type. The remaining bytes are used to keep track of the file data. CP/M 2.2 disk format: < http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/format22.html > CP/M 3.1 disk format: < http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/format31.html > CP/M File Control Block: < http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/fcb.html > -- Göran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1032379647snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1032417222 12826 10.0.0.1 (19 Sep 2002 06:33:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:33:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17rusf-0003Kj-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 06:33:42 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117164 In article <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> Eric.Sosman@sun.com "Eric Sosman" writes: > I used to speculate about whether RAD50 encoding of file > name components produced a net decrease or a net increase in > disk space usage. Sure, the encoding saved a few bytes per > file name. But at the same time, it required practically > every program to include encoding and/or decoding routines > amounting to perhaps a hundred bytes. Even on systems where > programs were able to share a single copy of the hundred > bytes, each program needed extra code to call those routines, > separate buffers for the internal and external representations, > and so on. Personally, I felt this use of RAD50 was probably > ill-advised -- but ill-advised or not, it was used thus. No: as I've already remarked elsewhere in this thread, the routines for packing and unpacking RAD50 were some of the most elegant and compact machine-code I've ever had the privilege of reading (on RSX-11M at least). Far from being "a hundred bytes", they were more like about twenty apiece. Anyone got access to RSX-11M source code, and able to post these subroutines? -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: Eric Sosman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:42:42 -0400 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 33 Message-ID: <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com> References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tardis.east.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!eastnews1.East.Sun.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117153 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > You have to realize that those -11 operating systems were not > designed for "timesharing". They were designed with single > usage in mind. Most of my exposure was to a non-DEC O/S: it booted up as PDP-11 DOS and then replaced the entire system image with customized stuff. But it made an effort to keep the on-disk structure at least partially DOS-compatible, so RAD50 was used in a lot of places. This system was something of a hot-rod. The PDP-11 itself was heavily modified, with custom memory management and more RAM than DEC would ever put on that model (ISTR the chip set started out as an 11/34). There was a machine-to-machine optically-isolated bus allowing a sort of clustering to permit continued operation even if a CPU or disk should die. And a typical two-machine cluster served 20-40 simultaneous users doing text processing, typesetting, order entry, and workflow management. An oddity: While teaching myself PDP-11 assembler, I recall finding three different single instructions that could be used to return from an ordinary subroutine. Studying the instruction timings for the PDP-11/(34?), I was surprised to learn that RET was only the second-fastest; MOV (SP)+,PC was just a hair faster (and JMP @(SP)+ was a good deal slower). I suggested to our hot- rodders that changing the RETURN macro in our system-wide macro file might be in order, but AFAIK nobody followed through. -- Eric.Sosman@sun.com ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:46:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1032420016snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <20020918214236.0f30caa7.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1032457602 17627 10.0.0.1 (19 Sep 2002 17:46:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:46:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from dsl.demon.co.uk ([158.152.92.150]) by news.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.05) id 17s5Nx-0004Zs-00 for mail2news@news.demon.co.uk; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:46:41 +0000 X-Path: dsl.co.uk!bhk X-To: mail2news@news.demon.co.uk X-Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 X-Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bhk Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117155 In article <20020918214236.0f30caa7.steveo@eircom.net> steveo@eircom.net "Steve O'Hara-Smith" writes: > On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:43:55 +0000 (UTC) > bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: > > B> I think you've probably found a reasonable explanation; eight character > > Unfortunately it is wrong - (and something *is* the way I > recall it). > > B> "name", followed by a "filler byte" followed by a fixed three character > B> extension. All in a twelve byte field. The only question remaining to > > Make that an 11 byte field - the following is taken from > http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/fcb.html. Thanks, Steve. Now, why has this all not come out on previous excursions of the 8+3 thread? > Because it was eight with an implied filler and even the spare bits > got used (the directory entry and FCB layouts match). That'll stop those Frogs and others wanting special NLS characters in their files' names :-) -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Fri, 20 Sep 02 10:02:27 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYhIDLW9TSNYD1HmZp1p6uWLIDUtNM308BXDmJRw7sKuRfjvO5FvJmW X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2002 11:16:54 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-214 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117203 In article <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com>, Eric Sosman wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> You have to realize that those -11 operating systems were not >> designed for "timesharing". They were designed with single >> usage in mind. > > Most of my exposure was to a non-DEC O/S: it booted up as >PDP-11 DOS and then replaced the entire system image with >customized stuff. Neat. I was always interested (and most of the time real surprised) by what customers were doing with the gear. > .. But it made an effort to keep the on-disk >structure at least partially DOS-compatible, so RAD50 was used >in a lot of places. > > This system was something of a hot-rod. The PDP-11 itself >was heavily modified, with custom memory management and more >RAM than DEC would ever put on that model (ISTR the chip set >started out as an 11/34). There was a machine-to-machine >optically-isolated bus allowing a sort of clustering to permit >continued operation even if a CPU or disk should die. And a >typical two-machine cluster served 20-40 simultaneous users >doing text processing, typesetting, order entry, and workflow >management. Typesetting? That must have really sucked up the cycles. What's workflow management? > > An oddity: While teaching myself PDP-11 assembler, I recall >finding three different single instructions that could be used to >return from an ordinary subroutine. Studying the instruction >timings for the PDP-11/(34?), I was surprised to learn that RET >was only the second-fastest; MOV (SP)+,PC was just a hair faster >(and JMP @(SP)+ was a good deal slower). I suggested to our hot- >rodders that changing the RETURN macro in our system-wide macro >file might be in order, but AFAIK nobody followed through. On the -10, there were also different ways to get from here to there. Each one had an advantage; each one had its costs. I'm pretty sure I can't give an accurate description of each. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Fri, 20 Sep 02 10:03:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <20020918214236.0f30caa7.steveo@eircom.net> <1032420016snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa0SorbZZU7mZf7dHHxTA9mwZL+ZiEeN7Up/8xDst6+qcSssPIHPhFH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2002 11:18:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-214 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117209 In article <1032420016snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >In article <20020918214236.0f30caa7.steveo@eircom.net> > steveo@eircom.net "Steve O'Hara-Smith" writes: > >> On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:43:55 +0000 (UTC) >> bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >> >> B> I think you've probably found a reasonable explanation; eight character >> >> Unfortunately it is wrong - (and something *is* the way I >> recall it). >> >> B> "name", followed by a "filler byte" followed by a fixed three character >> B> extension. All in a twelve byte field. The only question remaining to >> >> Make that an 11 byte field - the following is taken from >> http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/Cpm/fcb.html. > >Thanks, Steve. Now, why has this all not come out on previous excursions >of the 8+3 thread? Because somebody read the fucking code rather than the fucking manual. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Eric Sosman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:17:41 -0400 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 66 Message-ID: <3D8B3C15.5051E553@sun.com> References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tardis.east.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!eastnews1.East.Sun.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117267 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com>, > Eric Sosman wrote: > > > > This system was something of a hot-rod. The PDP-11 itself > >was heavily modified, with custom memory management and more > >RAM than DEC would ever put on that model (ISTR the chip set > >started out as an 11/34). There was a machine-to-machine > >optically-isolated bus allowing a sort of clustering to permit > >continued operation even if a CPU or disk should die. And a > >typical two-machine cluster served 20-40 simultaneous users > >doing text processing, typesetting, order entry, and workflow > >management. > > Typesetting? That must have really sucked up the cycles. Not really. The technology was different: we weren't generating bit-maps from Bézier outlines and blasting them to raster engines. Typesetters of the day were usually called "phototypesetters" because they used (or simulated internally) photographic methods to copy letterform images onto film. The glyph manufacturing happened off- line in the typesetter; all we had to tell it was what glyph to put where. This still involved a significant amount of computation, but not of the kind you may have imagined. > What's workflow management? We sold the hot-rodded PDP-11s and our custom O/S and software to newspapers and magazines for pre-press operations. By "workflow management" I meant things like - Grabbing raw copy from wire services, deciding whether or not to use it in a story, routing it to a writer, routing that to one or more editors, negotiating with the layout people about how many column-inches to give it, routing it to yet another editor for "make it fit" rewriting, and eventually signing off on it and sending it to the typesetters. - Classified advertisements. I never realized before working for that company just how many distinct steps there are between "Herald-Fabricator classified ad department; how may I help you?" and the appearance of "For Sale: IBM 709 computer, mint condition" in the printed newspaper. I didn't work directly with our class-ad applications and can't recount all the intricacies, but there were enough of them to warrant building some special hooks directly into the file system. Fascinating system. Ahead of its time in some ways (clustering for fault tolerance wasn't all that common in commercial products of the mid-1970s), far behind in others (virtually everything was writting in assembly language; C was just beginning to appear on the fringes when I left the place in 1985). A victim of its own success: with all that customization and with everything written in assembly, we got far more bang out of a small PDP-11 than anyone had a right to -- with the result that we didn't so much stick with the -11 as get ourselves welded to it. Bigger and faster machines became available but we couldn't take advantage of them -- we didn't even manage to migrate to the VAX! -- but our competitors could. And did. I think if we'd been less successful we might have done better at keeping our options open. -- Eric.Sosman@sun.com ###### Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:24:45 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Message-ID: <20020920172445.41c0c346.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20020918214236.0f30caa7.steveo@eircom.net> <1032420016snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2002 16:59:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p2367.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=gWI^A4YiWcQji<4 Thanks, Steve. Now, why has this all not come out on previous B> excursions of the 8+3 thread? We were looking for origins prior to CP/M or a clear indication that it started there. This only came up now because the mention of a filler byte triggered a neuron shouting "No" in my brain. It doesn't help much to explain 8+3 in CP/M - for example if those bit flags had been stuffed in their own byte it would have to be 7+3. I lean to the GARYKILDALL theory :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <20020918214236.0f30caa7.steveo@eircom.net> <1032420016snz@dsl.co.uk> <20020920172445.41c0c346.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: Lines: 10 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:46:00 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.140.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net 1032551850 62.254.140.169 (Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:57:30 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:57:30 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!peernews.cix.co.uk!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117292 According to Steve O'Hara-Smith : > I lean to the GARYKILDALL theory :) Wouldn't that suggest a 4.7 filename? Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:49:41 +0100 Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com> <3D8B3C15.5051E553@sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1813.bonobo.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 1032551017 27358 217.134.55.21 (20 Sep 2002 19:43:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2002 19:43:37 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117299 "Eric Sosman" wrote in message news:3D8B3C15.5051E553@sun.com... [SNIP] > - Classified advertisements. I never realized before working > for that company just how many distinct steps there are > between "Herald-Fabricator classified ad department; how > may I help you?" and the appearance of "For Sale: IBM 709 > computer, mint condition" in the printed newspaper. I > didn't work directly with our class-ad applications and > can't recount all the intricacies, but there were enough > of them to warrant building some special hooks directly > into the file system. LOL, that one caught me out too ! > Fascinating system. Ahead of its time in some ways (clustering Sounds fantastic, wish I'd come across one. Would you be able to give me some google-able hints as to the vendor ? I'm curious to se know if I might have tripped over a site that used one. One site I went to had a museum of their old type-setting gear, including some PDP-8 powered kit. [SNIP] > I think if we'd been less successful we might have done better at > keeping our options open. Ironic. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Russell P. Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> Subject: Re: DOS history question Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:06:52 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.183.117.237 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1032552537 216.183.117.237 (Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:08:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:08:57 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117293 > Correct; using RAD50, the six letters in the "name" part could be > compressed into two 16-bit words, and the three in the "extension" into a > further 16-bit word. No need to use the period to delimit one from the > other /internally/; programs could use the three words as an entity to > reference the entire name, whilst those that needed to know the extension > could look at the single word at offset word+2. I've gotta problem here. When you use the term Radix50, do you mean a character set consisting of 50 character codes, compressed into 16 bits? If so, I must point out that such a thing wouldn't fit. A 40-code set, however, would fit nicely in 16 bits... that would provide for 26 letters, 10 digits, a space, and 3 carefully-chosen special characters. A Radix 50 set would require another bit to encode it. (40^3 = 64000 and 50^3 = 125000) I note, however, that 50 in octal corresponds to 40 decimal. Is that where the '50' comes from? -- Russ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: <040gma.v9j.ln@teabag.cbhnet> X-Inktomi-Trace: pc3-oxfd1-5-cust169.oxf.cable.ntl.com 1032553800 14563 62.254.140.169 (20 Sep 2002 20:30:00 GMT) Lines: 11 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:23:28 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.224.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net 1032553801 80.1.224.4 (Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:30:01 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:30:01 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!194.168.222.61.MISMATCH!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117285 According to Russell P. Holsclaw : > I note, however, that 50 in octal corresponds to 40 decimal. Is that > where the '50' comes from? Yes. If IBM had done it, it would've been called RAD28. :) Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: Eric Sosman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:45:49 -0400 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3D8B88FD.86C99AF7@sun.com> References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com> <3D8B3C15.5051E553@sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tardis.east.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!eastnews1.East.Sun.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117302 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Eric Sosman" wrote in message > news:3D8B3C15.5051E553@sun.com... > > > Fascinating system. Ahead of its time in some ways (clustering > > Sounds fantastic, wish I'd come across one. Would you be > able to give me some google-able hints as to the vendor ? > I'm curious to se know if I might have tripped over a site > that used one. One site I went to had a museum of their > old type-setting gear, including some PDP-8 powered kit. The company still exists, more or less; http://www.atex.com/ is their Web site. They've been sold and re-sold and merged and re-merged several times, and it appears they've changed their business focus more than a little. Not having seen the place in seventeen years I can't be sure, but I rather imagine the old hot-rodded PDP-11s that once were their bread and butter may now be just a fading memory of indigestion. -- Eric.Sosman@sun.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com> <3D8B3C15.5051E553@sun.com> <3D8B88FD.86C99AF7@sun.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: <4rckfc5h.fsf@earthlink.net> Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 71 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) Cancel-Lock: sha1:jpVeEiHC9U1UlS+Uuyt7ECCBCTA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:56:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.28.93.242 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1032566213 63.28.93.242 (Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:56:53 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:56:53 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!west.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117323 Eric Sosman writes: > The company still exists, more or less; http://www.atex.com/ > is their Web site. They've been sold and re-sold and merged and > re-merged several times, and it appears they've changed their > business focus more than a little. Not having seen the place > in seventeen years I can't be sure, but I rather imagine the > old hot-rodded PDP-11s that once were their bread and butter may > now be just a fading memory of indigestion. one of the things that started my wife and i on ha/cmp http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp in the late '80s was platform for the applications for one of their large customers. following newsgroup posting is totally unrelated that my wife and i were doing in the late '80s. From: alexv@Atex.Kodak.COM (Alex Volanis) Newsgroups: comp.newprod Date: 1 Jul 92 19:27:54 GMT NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT: Ultra High Performace Fault Tolerant File Server Atex Inc., a Kodak subsidiary, a supplier of high availability publishing systems has developed a Ultra high performance fault tolerant NFS file server. The product allows NFS client processes to continue computing, in the event of any single point of failure of the server or its network enviroment, even if the failure occured mid-transaction. This is accomplished without any modification to client software. The fault tolerant system is comprised of two 486 servers, one acting as a primary server and the other as a secondary server. Each server runs Unix V.3. A proprietary high speed interface connects the two servers. The dual servers eliminate all single points of failure. Continuous diagnostic monitoring of all system interfaces, including the required un-interuptable powersupply, enables the secondary server to detect when to take over client processes from a failed primary server. A change journal of all data blocks modified since the primary server went down is used to quickly bring the primary back into data synchronization when it is returned to service. A modified UNIX file system copies all file system data updates from the primary server to the secondary server. The dual data copies obviate the need to commit file system data to disk. The use of a large buffer cache allows the file server to operate out of memory with little or no disk reads or writes. The result is large improvement in UNIX file system and data base performance. The secondary server can be used in a read only mode for further performance gains. Atex is looking for a strategic partner to market the FTFS product and will port the product to the operating system and hardware of the selected vendor. For further product information contact: Gordon Vinther Atex Inc. 805 Middlesex Tpk. Billerica Ma., 01821 U.S.A. Tel: (508)670-3133 -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <3D8892CC.9BE8EC42@sun.com> <3D89F072.F369C22F@sun.com> <3D8B3C15.5051E553@sun.com> <3D8B88FD.86C99AF7@sun.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 122 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) Cancel-Lock: sha1:uZnRtwzoosVC1fGr9Xqaz7NVmq8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:04:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.28.93.242 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1032566694 63.28.93.242 (Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:04:54 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:04:54 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117344 misc. other atex ... Subject: "Can Atex Keep Its Proprietary Place in the Newsroom?" Source: NY Times, 3/17/91, pg F4, John Markoff <120 LINES> 'A favorite is being superseded by desktop software' o Atex Inc., Billerica MA - once the world's premier maker of editorial and advertising systems - now under pressure as new technology and nimble competitors challenge o Bill Solimeno, Seybold Publishing Group (Media PA) analyst "They don't have a competitive product today and they need one quickly" o the news lately has been unrelentingly bad - 3 multi-million deals have gone to their chief competitor, S11 from Systems Integrators, Sacramento CA . Toronto Star . Washington Post . Westchester Rockland Newspapers - 2 weeks ago Atex announced the latest in their layoffs . they are now down to 600 employees, from 1985's 1,400 - Time Magazine dropped their hardware service and support contract . Time was Atex's premier magazine customer - then Time announced plans at the Seybold seminar in Boston last month . they're going to create a division and compete with Atex . using Macintosh software technology from P.Ink (Germany) o Atex was founded in 1973 by Charles and Richard Ying - they developed their first system in an unheated loft in Lexington MA after graduating from MIT - Ray Toothaker, Advanced Technology Solutions pres. & former Atex exec "They would be a classic business school study case. The thing that's sad is they had the market and they let it go. It was a revolutionary business when it started. But Kodak slowed us down during a crucial period beginning in 1981. They brought in two chemists who knew nothing about high technology" - Kodak bought Atex from its founders for $77M Atex announced a new president in January, and a new strategy o they were developing a "big bang" product with IBM - instead they will go to a modular approach - they hope for more than a dozen products before yearend o Brian Lacey, Atex president and former Monotype (UK) head "This company has been in a deep freeze. We have to come out and show the what what this technology can do" o industry executives say Atex lost it's grip because: - they were slow to modernize, and - slow to recognize the power of the PC desktop publishing wave . Atex's business was based on a minicomputer system from DEC . minicomputer sales have largely sagged in the face of PC systems o the same features that were exclusive to Atex are available on desktops - plus features that newspaper publishers have been looking for o Atex may be too late to save it's still-considerable customer base - Paul Brainerd, Aldus (Seattle WA) president "It's a fundamental change in the business model. It's very difficult for a company to make this kind of transition when everything is changing in the way you do business" . he founded Aldus when he left Atex in 1984 o Lacey took over with a mandate from Kodak and IBM - do whatever it takes to get back on track o Atex will adopt to industry hardware and software standards: Lacey - they'll also open their product line and work with other companies - industry officials are adopting a wait and see: . can Atex make progress while cutting headcount? o Atex is going to finish new technology projects for newsroom pagination - combining digitized photos and text on a computer screen and sending the result directly to the printing press - the New York Times announced a $22M plan in 1988 . Atex and IBM would develop a customized system - there have been delays with the system, still... . installation of the text editing will take place this year . without the page layout feature o Jonathon Seybold, Seybold Report publisher "What you have is a company that has retreated into a corner. It's partly ATex's fault and partly its customers fault" - large newspapers had become too dependent on Atex 'the thought of changing systems is too painful to consider' o Lacey believes Atex will stave off the desktop onslaught "It's very easy for passion to be forgotten when you're part of a large multinational company. We have to bring passion back to what we do" Accompanied by a box, "Catching the '4th Wave'" o a lot of the talk at the Seybold seminar in Boston was about Time & P.Ink - selling sophisticated editorial production software to magazines & papers o P.Ink Software Engineering is a modular collection of software programs - they combine other commercial software... . Quark's Xpress page-layout program . a range of database managers, text editors, newswire viewers o the programs run on Apple Macintoshes - "IBMs RS/6000", Next's Nextstation and other Unix systems to be added o P.Ink allows a reporter or editor to write in one window... - while watching newswires in another... - and simultaneously running other Mac programs - it's the holy grail of publishing: . combining editing, pagination, and coordinating with dozens of other writers and editors o Gerald Lelivre, Time director of development for pre-press systems "I felt the software had potential, however they were a small German company that had no immediate intention of moving into the US. I couldn't afford to wait" - P.Ink is installed at 10 sites in Germany - at Leipziger Volkszeitung, P.Ink controls a system of 140 reporters and editors using Macintosh Ilc's Accompanied by a chart, "Atex's Stake Amoung Leading Newspapers" Newspaper Circulation System Wall Street Journal 1,835,713 Information Int'l USA Today 1,325,507 Atex Daily News 1,194,237 Atex Los Angeles Times 1,107,823 Systems Integrators New York Times 1,068,217 Atex, Harris Washington Post 772,749 Systems Integrators Chicago Tribune 720,155 Hazeltine Newsday 700,174 Atex Detroit News 690,422 Systems Integrators Detroit Free Press 626,434 Atex San Francisco Chronicle 560,640 Systems Integrators Chicago Sun-Times 535,884 Atex Boston Globe 516,031 Atex New York Post 507,568 Harris Philadelphia Inquirer 504,903 Atex -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> <040gma.v9j.ln@teabag.cbhnet> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 07:46:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1032594402 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:46:42 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:46:42 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.news2me.com!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117393 On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:23:28 +0100, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Russell P. Holsclaw : >> I note, however, that 50 in octal corresponds to 40 decimal. Is that >> where the '50' comes from? > >Yes. If IBM had done it, it would've been called RAD28. :) IBM did use it and called it MOD40! -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <040gma.v9j.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: X-Inktomi-Trace: pc3-oxfd1-5-cust169.oxf.cable.ntl.com 1032606002 21885 62.254.140.169 (21 Sep 2002 11:00:02 GMT) Lines: 11 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:56:21 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.1.224.4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net 1032606002 80.1.224.4 (Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:00:02 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:00:02 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!syros.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117322 According to Brian Inglis : > IBM did use it and called it MOD40! No hex? Dreadful! But at least they didn't lower themselves to using an octal designation, that would just be *too* DEC. :) Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: "Russell P. Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <1032340841snz@dsl.co.uk> <1032716967snz@dsl.co.uk> Subject: Re: DOS history question Lines: 23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:16:53 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.183.117.237 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1032816026 216.183.117.237 (Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:20:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:20:26 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:117573 > As you would have seen mentioned in MANY other posts to this thread: when > answering one that's been running a week or two, it's usually a good idea > to read ALL the posts in the thread... Well, I reviewed the rest of the posts and no-one else mentioned the 40/50 discrepancy. OTOH, I've become aware that my ISP seems to miss a lot of ng postings. I see people quoting posts that I never saw the originals of. I complained to my ISP about this (Qwest.net) and they did nothing except say that they "don't support the *content* of newsgroups". I don't know what *that's* supposed to mean! I suppose that they would say the same thing if I were missing emails ... They don't support the "content"? Many times I don't even ever see the posts I made myself. Anyway, sorry if I offended you by not reading what I couldn't see. -- Russ ###### Message-ID: <3D95C6C1.F1A7F53E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> <3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1033218881 12.237.69.162 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:14:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:14:41 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:14:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118110 Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > No, it is not a troll. Both Adam and I are enrolled in the > Computer Systems: Operations and Management diploma program at The > University College of the Cariboo in Kamloops, British Columbia, > Canada. This question is from the instructor who usually teaches the > first-semester hardware course. > Come on...there's *not* really a college called "Cariboo in Kamloops". That sounds more like a breakfast cereal. Or maybe that would be "Cariboo in Frootloops". > > Apparently, only two students have ever gotten it, and he refuses > to give out the answer. Any chance I could persuade you folks to be > rotten, lousy, lowdown SOBs? I could threaten to publish the > instructor's contact information so that you might argue for being > spared from this question in the future. > IMHO the problem is that *no* one here seems to know the definitive answer to the question of where the 8+3 file file naming convention came from. > > Of course, I have probably given enough information that, with a > bit of work, you could figure out who the instructor is. Please let > him live. He is actually quite a nice guy. > Any instructor that even *cares* where the 8+3 file naming convention came from...is a cut above in my book. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: 28 Sep 2002 13:54:35 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> <3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net> <3D95C6C1.F1A7F53E@ev1.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1033221275 29424 134.117.136.30 (28 Sep 2002 13:54:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2002 13:54:35 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!ngpeer.news.aol.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118077 Charles Richmond (richmond@ev1.net) writes: > Come on...there's *not* really a college called "Cariboo in Kamloops". > That sounds more like a breakfast cereal. Or maybe that would be > "Cariboo in Frootloops". ... And you also don't believe there's a Moose Jaw High? ###### Message-ID: <3D9616AA.337A6E69@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> <3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net> <3D95C6C1.F1A7F53E@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:12:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1033247575 12.90.167.68 (Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:12:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:12:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118123 Charles Richmond wrote: > Gene Wirchenko wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > No, it is not a troll. Both Adam and I are enrolled in the > > Computer Systems: Operations and Management diploma program at The > > University College of the Cariboo in Kamloops, British Columbia, > > Canada. This question is from the instructor who usually teaches > > the first-semester hardware course. > > > Come on...there's *not* really a college called "Cariboo in Kamloops". > That sounds more like a breakfast cereal. Or maybe that would be > "Cariboo in Frootloops". Boy oh boy - next thing somebody will claim to live in Moosejaw. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <3D96304A.5070106@beagle-ears.com> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:42:19 -0700 From: Lars Poulsen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question References: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> <3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net> <3D95C6C1.F1A7F53E@ev1.net> <3D9616AA.337A6E69@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 1033252944 187 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118139 Charles Richmond wrote: >>Come on...there's *not* really a college called "Cariboo in Kamloops". >>That sounds more like a breakfast cereal. Or maybe that would be >>"Cariboo in Frootloops". As always, Google is your friend: http://www.cariboo.bc.ca/ http://osca.ouac.on.ca/cariboo.htm http://www.cariboo.bc.ca/tt/electron/core.htm -- / Lars Poulsen +1-805-569-5277 http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/ 125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA lars@beagle-ears.com ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 05:15:55 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3d968bd2.25800091@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> <3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net> <3D95C6C1.F1A7F53E@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 51 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!gatel-ffm!proxad.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118173 Charles Richmond wrote: >Gene Wirchenko wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> No, it is not a troll. Both Adam and I are enrolled in the >> Computer Systems: Operations and Management diploma program at The >> University College of the Cariboo in Kamloops, British Columbia, >> Canada. This question is from the instructor who usually teaches the >> first-semester hardware course. >> >Come on...there's *not* really a college called "Cariboo in Kamloops". >That sounds more like a breakfast cereal. Or maybe that would be >"Cariboo in Frootloops". It is not a college. It is a university college. Yes, there is such a thing. Does it sound like an unholy mix of college and university? I suppose it could be called that. Lars Poulsen got it right: http://www.cariboo.bc.ca/ >> Apparently, only two students have ever gotten it, and he refuses >> to give out the answer. Any chance I could persuade you folks to be >> rotten, lousy, lowdown SOBs? I could threaten to publish the >> instructor's contact information so that you might argue for being >> spared from this question in the future. >> >IMHO the problem is that *no* one here seems to know the definitive >answer to the question of where the 8+3 file file naming convention >came from. The students who found out must have been VERY lucky. >> Of course, I have probably given enough information that, with a >> bit of work, you could figure out who the instructor is. Please let >> him live. He is actually quite a nice guy. >> >Any instructor that even *cares* where the 8+3 file naming >convention came from...is a cut above in my book. I take that as agreement that you will let him live. Oh, good! Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:20:49 +0100 Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> <3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1033377649 24438 62.49.243.90 (30 Sep 2002 09:20:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:20:49 +0000 (UTC) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Priority: 3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118300 "Gene Wirchenko" wrote in message news:3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net... > Charles Richmond wrote: > > >Peter Ibbotson wrote: > >> > >> "Adam Fairbrother" wrote in message > >> news:Xns9289171BE97A8NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... > >> > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the > >> > history of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through > >> > some old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it > >> > isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a CP/M > >> > OS refrenced when making DOS as well as something to do with the PDP10(6 > >> > bit chars), and RAD50(Octal packing). > >> > >> Hmm... We did this back in april most recently > > January/February, and it was I who asked then. Sorry gene, it was just when I googled for this I found your thread which starts off with "A few months ago". Unfortunately for me the time frame for this stuff is prior to my starting to work with computers so I have no "real" answers. I'd love to know what he thinks the "correct" answer is. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: mario@klebsch.de (Mario Klebsch) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: DOS history question Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:03:42 +0200 Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1033419822.385753@ds9.klebsch.de> References: <3D86E9E1.433AF8BC@ev1.net> <3d94c80b.15159695@news.ocis.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1033419822 05 664 iE3zbYvSzAO54 020930 21:03:42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 320013932329-0001@t-dialin.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #124 Cache-Post-Path: ds9.klebsch.de!mario@ds9.klebsch.de X-Cache: nntpcache 3.0.1 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!solnet.ch!solnet.ch!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:118337 "Adam Fairbrother" wrote in message news:Xns9289171BE97A8NoIWillNot@24.67.253.211... > Hello, I was just wondering if anyone in here would know the history > of the 8.3 file name convention in DOS. I was reading through some > old messages in google groups, and found a partial answer, but it > isn't something that I understand all that well. Something about a > CP/M OS refrenced when making DOS as well MS-DOS was strongly based on CP/M. CP/M was a standard OS on 8080/8085/Z80 baes systems osed around 1980-1985. BW the source code of CP/M has been released to the public some years ago. 73, Mario -- Mario Klebsch mario@klebsch.de PGP-Key available at http://www.klebsch.de/public.key Fingerprint DSS: EE7C DBCC D9C8 5DC1 D4DB 1483 30CE 9FB2 A047 9CE0 Diffie-Hellman: D447 4ED6 8A10 2C65 C5E5 8B98 9464 53FF 9382 F518