From: "Ville Jorma" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 18:35:48 +0300 Organization: Song Networks Internet Services Lines: 17 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: gw.satakunnanpuhelin.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news1.songnet.fi 1031326674 6909 212.86.13.2 (6 Sep 2002 15:37:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@songnet.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Sep 2002 15:37:54 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!uio.no!newsfeed.song.fi!news1.songnet.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116076 Quoting sendmail [1] : "It turned out that the British Grey book protocol was based on FTP. To support that protocol, this -ba command-line switch was restored in V8.7 sendmail." What is that protocol and where it is/was used? [1] Costales with Allman: sendmail, Second Edition § 36.7.3 "Use ARPAnet/Grey Book protocols O'Reilly 1997 ; ISBN 1-56592-222-0 Regards, Ville Jorma ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: X-no-archive: yes From: Iain A F Fleming Organization: Circuit Software Systems Ltd Sender: iainf@kororaa.com X-Face: e*V!,7a4cutJkW*e?kZYMLOLfCq4jh/)G^!BnrQu4#u*-nK3/P"`y5I[]j+_)CtnL\^i;>R~DSBpmvcjthW3V+R5"LTV,AWF Date: 06 Sep 2002 16:49:08 +0100 Message-ID: <6hit1jqft7.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Date: 06 Sep 2002 15:50:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.136.55.230 X-Trace: 1031327450 news.gradwell.net 63421 fleming/62.136.55.230 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!easynet-monga!mango.news.easynet.net!easynet.net!news-peer.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116094 "Ville Jorma" writes: > Quoting sendmail [1] : > > "It turned out that the British Grey book protocol was based on FTP. > To support that protocol, this -ba command-line switch was restored > in V8.7 sendmail." > > What is that protocol and where it is/was used? It was the mail transfer protocol, specified by the JNT (Joint Network Team) used over the British universities research network, Janet (a contemporary of the Arapnet). Janet was primarily based on a X.25 (Orange Book) backbone, but was specified for LANs as well - Green Book, if I recall, for Cambridge Ring. Maybe others can fill in the other Coloured Books? I seem to have managed to supress the memories. -- Iain A F Fleming Circuit Software Systems Ltd ###### From: Mike K Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:15:07 +0100 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 31 Message-ID: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> References: Reply-To: Mike.K.Smith@Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: sr-egmp02-01.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1031328906 23288 129.156.85.21 (6 Sep 2002 16:15:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Sep 2002 16:15:06 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79C-CCK-MCD [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.telebyte.nl!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116109 Ville Jorma wrote: > > Quoting sendmail [1] : > > "It turned out that the British Grey book protocol was based on FTP. > To support that protocol, this -ba command-line switch was restored > in V8.7 sendmail." > > What is that protocol and where it is/was used? The Grey Book protocol was one of the 'Coloured Book' protocols which were used on JANET (Joint Academic NETwork) in the UK, mainly in the 1980s, and were replaced by the TCP/IP protocols in the early 1990s. JANET at that time was an X.25 network linking the UK Universities and Research Centres. There was a certain amount of dual-running of Coloured Books and IP stacks on JANET in the early 1990s. One of the quirks of Grey Book mail is that the addresses were the opposite way around to Internet DNS names. e.g. A user's mail address would be F.Bloggs@uk.ac.hogwarts, rather than F.Bloggs@hogwarts.ac.uk. The FTP used was not the Internet FTP, but NIFTP (Network Independent File Transfer Protocol), also known as 'Blue Book' FTP. Some information on Grey Book mail is available at Hope this helps, I haven't used Grey Book mail in years. Mike ###### From: Mike K Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:23:35 +0100 Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 33 Message-ID: <3D78D687.94F40F38@sun.com> References: <6hit1jqft7.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> Reply-To: Mike.K.Smith@Sun.COM NNTP-Posting-Host: sr-egmp02-01.uk.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1031329414 23428 129.156.85.21 (6 Sep 2002 16:23:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Sep 2002 16:23:34 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79C-CCK-MCD [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116108 Iain A F Fleming wrote: > > "Ville Jorma" writes: > > > Quoting sendmail [1] : > > > > "It turned out that the British Grey book protocol was based on FTP. > > To support that protocol, this -ba command-line switch was restored > > in V8.7 sendmail." > > > > What is that protocol and where it is/was used? > > It was the mail transfer protocol, specified by the JNT (Joint Network > Team) used over the British universities research network, Janet (a > contemporary of the Arapnet). > > Janet was primarily based on a X.25 (Orange Book) backbone, but was > specified for LANs as well - Green Book, if I recall, for Cambridge > Ring. Pink Book was for Ethernet. > Maybe others can fill in the other Coloured Books? I seem to have > managed to supress the memories. Yellow Book was the transport layer. Red Book was Job Transfer. There is a brief history of JANET here: Searching www.ja.net for Coloured Books yields about 37 hits. Mike ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 18:16:26 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116098 In alt.folklore.computers Mike K Smith wrote: > There was a certain amount of dual-running of Coloured Books and IP stacks > on JANET in the early 1990s. When JIPS started (JANet IP Service), tunnelling IP over X.25, those who tended to wear shiny-arsed brown polyester suits, zip-up cardigans, and sandals with socks (virtually the uniform for the older breed of committee-oriented networking people in UK academia...) seemed to regard Coloured Book as hugely superior and sort of vaguely tolerated IP. Us poor users, of course, thought IP was utterly marvellous because we could actually network without a "high priesthood", and could use off-the shelf software... so within a very short amount of time, the vast majority of the X.25 traffic was actually encapsulated IP. Very soon after, the entire network switched around - it became IP-based with the remaining Luddites (and I use the term *entirely* perjoratively here, with none of the affection afc users tend to bandy it about with internally) running their Coloured Books tunnelled over IP. > > One of the quirks of Grey Book mail is that the addresses were the opposite > way around to Internet DNS names. e.g. A user's mail address would be > F.Bloggs@uk.ac.hogwarts, rather than F.Bloggs@hogwarts.ac.uk. And if you ever thought DNS or editing /etc/hosts was baroque, the, errr, "organisation" of NRS DERFILs was entirely horrific. > The FTP used was not the Internet FTP, but NIFTP (Network Independent File > Transfer Protocol), also known as 'Blue Book' FTP. > > Some information on Grey Book mail is available at > > > Hope this helps, I haven't used Grey Book mail in years. > Shudder. I suffered enough of $ hhcp uk.ac.nsfnet-relay.sun!/pub/blah/.... (or something equally ghastly, I don't want to remember the details!) to make the very mention of coloured-book horrify me. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> From: Iain A F Fleming Organization: Circuit Software Systems Ltd Sender: iainf@kororaa.com X-Face: e*V!,7a4cutJkW*e?kZYMLOLfCq4jh/)G^!BnrQu4#u*-nK3/P"`y5I[]j+_)CtnL\^i;>R~DSBpmvcjthW3V+R5"LTV,AWF Date: 06 Sep 2002 20:59:00 +0100 Message-ID: <6hbs7a28l7.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Date: 06 Sep 2002 19:59:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.136.52.50 X-Trace: 1031342389 news.gradwell.net 63420 fleming/62.136.52.50 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@gradwell.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.theplanet.net!inewsm1.nntp.theplanet.net!diablo.theplanet.net!easynet-monga!easynet.net!news-peer.gradwell.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116114 Roland Hutchinson writes: > The best-known glitch was that mail addressed from to an address at > a computer science department at a UK university > (e.g. uk.ac.oxford.cs), had at times a very good chance of ending up > in Czechoslovakia, as then was, looking for a host called > uk.ac.oxford.cs in the .cs top-level Internet domain. More likely to have been somwehere like uk.ac.man.cs, rather than ox, as Oxford had the Computing Laboratory (and the Programming Research Group), which were an offshoots of the Maths department, and not a CS department. I was a sysadmin next door, at uk.ac.ox.eng, at the time of such mail routing, and it caused us endless headaches. -- Iain A F Fleming Circuit Software Systems Ltd ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> <6h3csn3rht.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 22:54:53 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.140.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep2-gui 1031349606 62.254.140.169 (Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:00:06 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:00:06 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep2-gui.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116146 According to Iain A F Fleming : > You forgot the patchy ginger beard, Pete. There was an even lower form of life, which was the managerial component of the brown polyester suit brigade, who made up for their shortage of competence with copious vindictiveness. I recall being summoned before one of these creatures as a student being accused of "misusing" the X.25 system by sending two 50K emails across it one day, and the incontrovertible evidence presented to me was the my use of telnet between two college systems I was authorised to use. Like all despots he demanded a not inconsiderable amount of grovelling in order for him not to misuse his underwhelming authority (although if anyone recalls a Mr B***n, head of IT at H******d P**y in the late '80s, you'd be aware that any amount of authority was too much for a complete arse of his magnitude; probably the most incapable man I have ever known, and I've known some bad PHBs) > You and me both. You mean that you were both granted that level of access? Wow. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> <6h3csn3rht.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> X-no-archive: yes From: Iain A F Fleming Organization: Circuit Software Systems Ltd Sender: iainf@kororaa.com X-Face: e*V!,7a4cutJkW*e?kZYMLOLfCq4jh/)G^!BnrQu4#u*-nK3/P"`y5I[]j+_)CtnL\^i;>R~DSBpmvcjthW3V+R5"LTV,AWF Date: 06 Sep 2002 23:09:07 +0100 Message-ID: <6h3csmydmk.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net (please include full headers) X-Trace: 3ac064066d68566973622020395e00c8e16404720604880584c082273d7927e4 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:10:44 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peernews!peer.cwci.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!eos.uk.clara.net Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116217 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > According to Iain A F Fleming : > > > You and me both. > > You mean that you were both granted that level of access? Wow. One of the privileges of being an old fart. -- Iain A F Fleming Circuit Software Systems Ltd ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <6h3csn3rht.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> <6h3csmydmk.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: Lines: 13 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 00:09:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.140.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net 1031353909 62.254.140.169 (Sat, 07 Sep 2002 00:11:49 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 00:11:49 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!peernews!peer.cwci.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116154 According to Iain A F Fleming : > One of the privileges of being an old fart. I think it must also be down to your local environment; most of the "old farts" at H******d fared little better than the students from what I heard at the time... Although I'd heard that a lot of places were a bit more welcoming in their policies. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 02:59:18 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs / Lucent Technologies Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3D796B86.5A92A767@bell-labs.com> References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 135.104.65.78 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1031366920 59226264 135.104.65.78 (16 [156882]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!135.104.65.78!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116129 Dredging back into my archives, I found bits of mail from my sister, the first member of my family with whom I established an email connection. This was interesting, in that she had worked for many years in the archeology group at University of Newcastle in the UK, but daringly (and successfully) switched careers by enrolling in a postgraduate CS course. Here are the headers and start of the message, not quite our first. Interesting to trace out the paths and networks involved. (Some of the ! paths were generated by local translation.) Dennis --- Received: by mcvax.cwi.nl; Tue, 15 Dec 87 22:56:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk by kestrel.Ukc.AC.UK via Janet (UKC CAMEL FTP) id aa25711; 15 Dec 87 17:23 GMT Received: from turing.newcastle.ac.uk (turing) by uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot; Tue, 15 Dec 87 17:20:02 GMT From: "L.Ritchie" Message-Id: <3006.8712151721@turing.newcastle.ac.uk> Subject: Received To: research!dmr Date: Tue, 15 Dec 87 17:21:10 GMT X-Mailer: Elm [version 1.7] -- JANET: L.Ritchie@uk.ac.newcastle.cheviot UUCP : L.Ritchie@cheviot.UUCP ARPA : L.Ritchie%cheviot.newcastle@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk PHONE: +44 91 232 9233 NAIL: Computing Laboratory, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU Dear Dennis, This is brilliant, and who knows it might revolutionize family communications. It is undoubtedly easier to write a letter like this, especially if there's a computer handy, rather than trying to write a letter late at night when tired or when there's only an hour to go before the mail is collected. Anyway, enough of that.... ###### Message-ID: <3D796EE3.30008@boutel.co.nz> From: Brian Boutel Organization: X User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:13:39 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.144.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1031368419 203.96.144.148 (Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:13:39 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:13:39 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xmission!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116122 Mike K Smith wrote: > One of the quirks of Grey Book mail is that the addresses were the opposite > way around to Internet DNS names. e.g. A user's mail address would be > F.Bloggs@uk.ac.hogwarts, rather than F.Bloggs@hogwarts.ac.uk. Sometimes these reversed names leaked out and were interpreted as Internet names and not reversed, and this could cause problems. This could happed if both ends were valid ccTLDs. For example, a CS department person might be F.Bloggs@uk.ac.hogwarts.cs, which could be interpreted as an address in Czechoslovakia (which, of course, is no longer a problem). Hence some depts changed cs to dcs. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> <3D796B86.5A92A767@bell-labs.com> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: X-Inktomi-Trace: pc3-oxfd1-5-cust169.oxf.cable.ntl.com 1031394600 6912 62.254.140.169 (7 Sep 2002 10:30:00 GMT) Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 11:26:35 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.128.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net 1031394601 80.3.128.5 (Sat, 07 Sep 2002 11:30:01 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 11:30:01 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116142 According to Dennis Ritchie : > enrolling in a postgraduate CS course. Here are the headers > and start of the message, not quite our first. Interesting > to trace out the paths and networks involved. ISTR the kestrel machine at Canterbury was JANET's only usable email gateway to the outside world... anybody confirm? On a related note, I've found that I still have a JANET sendmail config file circa 86/87 if anyone's masochistic enough to delve through it! (Lifted from Hatfield, and it still doesn't mean a whole lot more to me after all these years...) Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> <3D790BE6.615B9931@sun.com> From: Valtteri Vuorikoski Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: 07 Sep 2002 23:42:52 +0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.157.66.241 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jippii.net X-Trace: reader1.news.jippii.net 1031431293 213.157.66.241 (Sat, 07 Sep 2002 23:41:33 EEST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 23:41:33 EEST Organization: Jippii Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-stob.telia.net!news-stoa.telia.net!telia.net!newsfeed01.nntp.se.dataphone.net!nntp.se.dataphone.net!feeder1.news.jippii.net!reader1.news.jippii.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116229 Eric Sosman writes: > Considering the altitudes those kids attain on their broomsticks, > Hogwarts certainly qualifies as an institution of higher learning. Sluggy Freelance (probably my favorite web comic) has been tangentially related to this question this week (-: Starting at: -v ###### Date: 08 Sep 2002 16:20:00 +0200 From: kaih=8WS4KLYmw-B@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Message-ID: <8WS4KLYmw-B@khms.westfalen.de> References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? X-Newsreader: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh10 R/C435 Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? Lines: 31 X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news1.dtag.de!westfalen.de!news.khms.westfalen.de!khms.westfalen.de!kaih Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116168 Mike.K.Smith@sun.com (Mike K Smith) wrote on 06.09.02 in <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com>: > Ville Jorma wrote: > > > > Quoting sendmail [1] : > > > > "It turned out that the British Grey book protocol was based on FTP. > > To support that protocol, this -ba command-line switch was restored > > in V8.7 sendmail." > > > > What is that protocol and where it is/was used? > The Grey Book protocol was one of the 'Coloured Book' protocols which were > used on JANET (Joint Academic NETwork) in the UK, mainly in the 1980s, and > were replaced by the TCP/IP protocols in the early 1990s. [...] > The FTP used was not the Internet FTP, but NIFTP (Network Independent File > Transfer Protocol), also known as 'Blue Book' FTP. Of course, the Internet mail protocol (SMTP) is (loosely) based on the Internet FTP protocol, as well - it started out as a special application of FTP. That's why the basic principles of the two protocols (short, cryptic commands; three digit status codes; stuff like that) are the same to this day. Kai -- http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/ "... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it." - Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? References: <3D796B86.5A92A767@bell-labs.com> Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Message-ID: Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:22:54 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.140.169 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net 1031614205 62.254.140.169 (Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:30:05 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:30:05 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116295 According to Dave Wade : > Not at all. There were BITNET gateways at Rutherford Appleton Labs (RAL) and > SMTP gateways at either Imperial or ULCC. Latterley there were a number of > X.400 gateways, plus I think one to the BT Viewdata or similar system... Shows you how much I know! There was quite a lot of duff info going around concerning the WAN links at the time, much of which I'd taken as gospel and am still un-learning to this day! (Sigh... X.400, how I hated it! But that's another voluminous thread in itself) Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 Chris Hedley -- cbh(at)ieya(dot)co(dot)uk http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: 11 Sep 2002 00:52:44 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <6hit1jqft7.fsf@news2.kororaa.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vpn-129-156-96-35.emea.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1031705564 12664 129.156.96.35 (11 Sep 2002 00:52:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2002 00:52:44 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116434 In article <6hit1jqft7.fsf@news2.kororaa.com>, Iain A F Fleming writes: > > Maybe others can fill in the other Coloured Books? I seem to have > managed to supress the memories. Where I can remember, significant contributors to the standards are in brackets. Green Book: PAD - similar enough to CCITT XXX (X3, X.28, X.29) to interwork. Also contained a varient called TS29 which was a mapping of XXX over YBTS (Yellow Book Transport Service) which mapped the X.25 Q bit into the first byte of the YBTS PDU (YBTS not having a Q bit equivalent). Yellow Book: [Someone from University of Kent, can't recall name] Transport Service - actually misnamed as it bridged the gap between X.25(80) and top of the network service (later bridged by X.25(84) NSAP addressing), and didn't do much of what we would regard today as a Transport Service. Pink Book: [Les Clyne (sp?)] A mapping of X.25 level 3 over ethernet using LLC2. Blue Book: NIFTP - FTP protocol, completely different from Internet FTP and intended to run over YBTS, but fulfilling a similar function of transfering files between machines, and also used as the underlying transport for higher level protocols. Grey Book: [Jim Craigie, Jonathan Mills, Phillip Gladstone, Steve Kille] Mail - mostly the same as RFC822 but with a few headers different (e.g. Via: instead of Received:), domain naming endian-flipped, and running over NIFTP instead of SMTP. I could be wrong, but I think it was worked on in parallel with RFC822, so they both had common roots in RFC733. Red Book: [John Larmouth, possibly Leslie French, more I've forgotten] JTMP - Job Transfer and Manipulation Protocol. In principle, a very powerful protocol for shipping jobs between machines, taking the output and passing that as input to jobs on other machines, and finally bringing back all your results. I don't think there is an Internet equivalent of this, probably largely because Unix systems don't really have much concept of batch jobs, at least nowhere near as extensive as would be found on most other minis and mainframes in the 1980's. Fawn Book: This one appeared late in the day and I can't remember the name, but is was a protocol for screen editing files across a network. There weren't many implementations of it. I worked on implementations of all these through the 1980's, except Fawn Book. By the way, these didn't all come out of JANET; Green Book and Yellow book certainly predate JANET. I think Geen Book might have been from the GPO (predecessor to BT), and Yellow Book was from the Data Communications Protocols Unit. Some of the ones just after this may have been from JANET's predecessor SERCnet (or SRCnet if you go back even further). -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: 17 Sep 02 09:55:13 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <994.25T670T5954387@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> <3D796EE3.30008@boutel.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-899.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116882 In article roo@dark.eat- this.b00ng.freeserve.co.uk (Rupert Pigott) writes: >"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message >news:am6lqn$p1s$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... > >[SNIP] > >> To: uk-mail-managers@uk.ac.newcastle >> Subject: The Jim Crammond Farewell message >> From: Peter Houlder >> Address: Computing Lab, Univ of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, UK. > >[SNIP] > >OMG I remember seeing that one first time around. How on earth >I got hold of it I don't know. Maybe it was forwarded to a >news group. I'm trying to remember the variants on the "See >figure 1" format that I've seen... This one made it into rec.humor.funny. I'm currently looking at the copy in the TeleJokeBook volume III (1990), submitted by Jim Crammond . -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: 17 Sep 2002 07:32:39 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Lines: 124 Message-ID: References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> <3D796EE3.30008@boutel.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: vpn-129-156-96-12.emea.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: new-usenet.uk.sun.com 1032247959 25660 129.156.96.12 (17 Sep 2002 07:32:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@new-usenet.uk.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2002 07:32:39 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed3!btnet!carbon.eu.sun.com!new-usenet.uk.sun.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116895 In article <3D796EE3.30008@boutel.co.nz>, Brian Boutel writes: > Mike K Smith wrote: >> One of the quirks of Grey Book mail is that the addresses were the opposite >> way around to Internet DNS names. e.g. A user's mail address would be >> F.Bloggs@uk.ac.hogwarts, rather than F.Bloggs@hogwarts.ac.uk. > > Sometimes these reversed names leaked out and were interpreted as > Internet names and not reversed, and this could cause problems. This > could happed if both ends were valid ccTLDs. For example, a CS > department person might be F.Bloggs@uk.ac.hogwarts.cs, which could be > interpreted as an address in Czechoslovakia (which, of course, is no > longer a problem). Hence some depts changed cs to dcs. I just found this old email posted to the uk-mail-managers over 10 years ago which I had archived. Besides being a Grey Book mail message here in terms of headers and address ordering (although not 100% consistant, which was not untypical;-) it is actually poking fun at the Grey Book mail system. (Jim Crammond who wrote the original message had been running the Imperial College London email system at the time, IIRC.) Via: UK.AC.UKNET-RELAY; Fri, 3 Apr 92 17:03 (V35.3 at UK.CO.GPT.DATA-SYSTEMS.D7) Received:from newcastle.ac.uk by eros.uknet.ac.uk via JANET with NIFTP (PP) id <26442-0@eros.uknet.ac.uk>; Fri, 3 Apr 1992 16:57:23 +0100 Received:from uk.ac.uknet by ncl.ac.uk; Fri, 3 Apr 92 16:55:38 +0100 Received:from localhost by eros.uknet.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <25089-0@eros.uknet.ac.uk>; Fri, 3 Apr 1992 16:44:04 +0100 To: uk-mail-managers@uk.ac.newcastle Subject: The Jim Crammond Farewell message From: Peter Houlder Address: Computing Lab, Univ of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, UK. Phone: +44 227 764000 x7568 Fax: +44 227 762811 (G3) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 92 16:43:41 +0100 Message-Id: <25049.702315821@uknet.ac.uk> Original-Sender: Peter.Houlder@uk.ac.uknet Original-Sender: uk-mail-managers-request@uk.ac.newcastle Reply-To:Peter Houlder Sender: uk-mail-managers-request@uk.ac.newcastle Someone asked me if I still had a copy of this. I did and I thought it might just raise a smile on those who haven't seen it. ######################################################################### Please stop complaining about the mail system. It works for us, and we use it more than you do. If there are some features you think might be missing, if the system isn't as simple to use as you think it should be, TOUGH! Go back to writing letters, we don't need you. See Figure 1. --------------------------------- ! _ ! ! { } ! ! | | ! ! | | ! ! .-.! !.-. ! ! .-! ! ! !.-. ! ! ! ! ! ; ! ! \ ; ! ! \ ; ! ! ! : ! ! ! | ! ! | | ! ! ! !_______________________________! Figure 1. Forget about your silly problem, let's take a look at some of the features of our mail system: 1) Address Syntax. We can understand lots of address formats. We take them in and turn them around a few times until we have something suitable for sending out. Mixed syntax addresses get unmixed. We think it's great. So, you don't want your addresses turned around? You actually want to use mixed addresses? Too bad. You shouldn't need to anyway. See Figure 1. 2) NRS addresses. In the UK our domain addresses are the "other way round" (like the way we drive on the left). But our mailer will take your address in either order and figure out which way round it should be. So mail to your Computer Science Dept. sometimes goes to Czechoslovakia instead. Tough. Get Czechoslovakia to change its name. Anyway, we told the JNT about the domain ordering problem a long time ago. They said "See Figure 1". 3) Host Hiding. Works just fine. All these machines look like one mail host, and we have tables set up so mail coming in from anywhere is sent to the machine with your mailbox on it. You can't access that machine? Too bad. You can even try redirecting mail to another machine. Of course, if its a machine we control we'll probably send it right back again. Tough. See Figure 1. 4) Tailored Delivery. We can do it. You can get a vacation program to automatically reply to people who send you mail when you are away. Then their vacation programs can reply to your vacation program. And your vacation program can reply to their replies. But don't think you can get away with all this junk mail for long, because we can hit you with ... 5) Authorisation. We can stop sites sending mail or receiving mail through our system. We can even pick on individual users. Oh, you mean you can't send mail to us any more. Tough, we didn't want your complaints anyway. See Figure 1. 6) Error messages. If you don't understand them, ignore them. Why give yourself an ulcer? Try sending your message again, or else use the phone instead. Don't waste time mailing us about it, we're not interested. See Figure 1. 7) Performance. Who needs it? If the machine is too slow for you, buy another one. We'll keep this as the mail machine. Anyway, you wait until X.400 arrives. We spoke to the OSI developers about performance, they think a lot like we do, they said "See Figure 1". In conclusion, love the mail system or leave it, but don't complain. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.mail.sendmail Subject: Re: What is the British Grey Book protocol? Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:11:47 +0100 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3D78D48B.A3A90EF0@sun.com> <3D796EE3.30008@boutel.co.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3874.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 1032261225 31314 217.134.31.34 (17 Sep 2002 11:13:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Sep 2002 11:13:45 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116893 "Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message news:am6lqn$p1s$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... [SNIP] > To: uk-mail-managers@uk.ac.newcastle > Subject: The Jim Crammond Farewell message > From: Peter Houlder > Address: Computing Lab, Univ of Kent, Canterbury, Kent, UK. [SNIP] OMG I remember seeing that one first time around. How on earth I got hold of it I don't know. Maybe it was forwarded to a news group. I'm trying to remember the variants on the "See figure 1" format that I've seen... Good grief that really did bring the memories flooding back ! Cheers, Rupert