From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:13:42 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D36E391.F78B73D0@irtc.net><3D37AF17.1115@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> <20020720095515.160d87f8.steveo@eircom.net> <3D39B060.6847D2F4@alcyone.com> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-5!unknown@171.69.75.49 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112654 Several years ago I came across a short dialog between a couple of aliens who where amazed that humans are able to think with meat. Can anyone provide a reference? Thanks JKA -- Any system of neural organization sufficiently complex to generate the axioms of arithmetic is too complex to be understood by itself. Kaekel's Conjecture ###### Message-ID: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> From: Nyrath the nearly wise Organization: the Praeternatural Tower User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D36E391.F78B73D0@irtc.net><3D37AF17.1115@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> <20020720095515.160d87f8.steveo@eircom.net> <3D39B060.6847D2F4@alcyone.com> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:33:58 CDT X-Trace: sv3-6FOtRQx/Fj//AjG7rHAxDIWtDl8ziGRsa4vUCe5vpRKnFUjWknTfwCxx6loMoq2dU5faKpX5busTNqw!Nu+CSE6M91B2yJVC27Yjoht9pMvXx0IrdXO6+EVYLtxiVLDYl1PnT/71GcWtMQR9sSogl7vdLQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:33:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!216.166.71.11!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112661 J Ahlstrom wrote: > Several years ago I came across a short > dialog between a couple of aliens who where > amazed that humans are able to think with > meat. > > Can anyone provide a reference? http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers From: davids@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 20:15:50 GMT Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!kithrup.com!davids Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112703 In article <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid>, Nyrath the nearly wise wrote: >J Ahlstrom wrote: >> Several years ago I came across a short dialog between a >> couple of aliens who where amazed that humans are able to >> think with meat. >> >> Can anyone provide a reference? > >http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html > Oh, that was hilarious! And short, too. Very good. So *that's* why nobody wants to talk to us. ###### From: glenco@ukgateway.net (ian glendinning) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 25 Jul 2002 08:04:16 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.132.151.61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1027609457 7093 127.0.0.1 (25 Jul 2002 15:04:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2002 15:04:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112864 A great little story sure enough - if you want to highlight the paradox of why anyone should be any more incredulous at the idea that a machine can be intelligent any more than a sentient organic being can be. A provocative thought experiment. For me the sad flaw in this story is the conclusion of the two droids conspiring to cut off all future contact. I cannot decide if this is another level of irony I've missed, or simply not the likely response of an intelligent being, human or otherwise. Ian Glendinning ###### Message-ID: <3D404C8B.5080606@io.com.invalid> From: Nyrath the nearly wise Organization: the Praeternatural Tower User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:05:41 CDT X-Trace: sv3-zZ2Aug22qWpellTOnMSoEt+DyirWoaPI2BEuqADpr5o2K/n7qCKYHL4OrTNDJARQ88sB3QkJfZfsWO2!e8HfQvdBX7YnxQ61oJ3bSwa22X2fmWcCOlE1yvPtRhH58QC5CYH0twONqXeCo8QMxTMx1KZD9g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:05:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112795 ian glendinning wrote: > For me the sad flaw in this story is the conclusion of the two droids > conspiring to cut off all future contact. I cannot decide if this is > another level of irony I've missed, or simply not the likely response > of an intelligent being, human or otherwise. I always saw it as an explanation of the Fermi Paradox. ###### From: dtate@ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 25 Jul 2002 15:55:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0207251455.57df2cc0@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.209.223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1027637749 4405 127.0.0.1 (25 Jul 2002 22:55:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2002 22:55:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112871 glenco@ukgateway.net (ian glendinning) wrote in message news:... > A great little story sure enough - if you want to highlight the > paradox of why anyone should be any more incredulous at the idea that > a machine can be intelligent any more than a sentient organic being > can be. A provocative thought experiment. Conversely, one can read it as pointing out just how miraculous sentience really is, and how big a chasm we still have to bridge between what we know about how minds work, and what we would need to know in order to have explained consciousness, intelligence, etc. > For me the sad flaw in this story is the conclusion of the two droids > conspiring to cut off all future contact. I cannot decide if this is > another level of irony I've missed, or simply not the likely response > of an intelligent being, human or otherwise. It's a poke at parochialism. "Who cares if they're intelligent... They're MEAT. *I* won't have anything to do with them." Substitute for 'meat', etc. Cheers, David Tate ###### From: glenco@ukgateway.net (ian glendinning) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 26 Jul 2002 01:20:39 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <9d67e55e.0207251455.57df2cc0@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.132.151.61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1027671640 3596 127.0.0.1 (26 Jul 2002 08:20:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2002 08:20:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112862 dtate@ida.org (David Tate) wrote in message news:<9d67e55e.0207251455.57df2cc0@posting.google.com>... > glenco@ukgateway.net (ian glendinning) wrote in message news:... > > A great little story sure enough - if you want to highlight the > > paradox of why anyone should be any more incredulous at the idea that > > a machine can be intelligent any more than a sentient organic being > > can be. A provocative thought experiment. > > Conversely, one can read it as pointing out just how miraculous > sentience really is, and how big a chasm we still have to bridge > between what we know about how minds work, and what we would need to > know in order to have explained consciousness, intelligence, etc. IG: Absolutely, although I expressed it the other way around, this is the point I was really making - ie is it possible to conceive of anything any more incredible (miraculous if you like) than human consciousness (a sentient organic being). > > For me the sad flaw in this story is the conclusion of the two droids > > conspiring to cut off all future contact. I cannot decide if this is > > another level of irony I've missed, or simply not the likely response > > of an intelligent being, human or otherwise. > > It's a poke at parochialism. "Who cares if they're intelligent... > They're MEAT. *I* won't have anything to do with them." Substitute > for 'meat', etc. IG: I don't really buy this unfortunately - an intelligent group expending effort and resources searching the cosmos for signs of life doesn't sound "parochial" to me, so I still find the conclusion "wrong" - but hey, it's still a good little parable. > > Cheers, > David Tate IG: Ian Glendinning ###### From: glenco@ukgateway.net (ian glendinning) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 26 Jul 2002 03:07:26 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D404C8B.5080606@io.com.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.132.151.61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1027678046 9634 127.0.0.1 (26 Jul 2002 10:07:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2002 10:07:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112859 Nyrath the nearly wise wrote in message news:<3D404C8B.5080606@io.com.invalid>... > ian glendinning wrote: > > For me the sad flaw in this story is the conclusion of the two droids > > conspiring to cut off all future contact. I cannot decide if this is > > another level of irony I've missed, or simply not the likely response > > of an intelligent being, human or otherwise. > > I always saw it as an explanation of the Fermi Paradox. IG: Well yes I suppose I'd recognised that, but as I say I don't buy it as a likely explanation. ###### From: cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Chris Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 26 Jul 2002 19:25:50 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: libra.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tiscali.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!hgmp.mrc.ac.uk!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!cet1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112889 In article <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid>, Nyrath the nearly wise wrote: >J Ahlstrom wrote: >> Several years ago I came across a short >> dialog between a couple of aliens who where >> amazed that humans are able to think with >> meat. >> >> Can anyone provide a reference? > >http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html Steven Pinker describes this as "perhaps the ultimate reply to Searle's Chinese Room" in _How the Mind Works_, which may be a bit over the top. I have sometimes wondered why I find Pinker so much more pleasant to read than Dawkins. Maybe it's the way he throws in SF references from time to time ... :-) Chris Thompson Email: cet1 [at] cam.ac.uk ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:28:27 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-Trace: betanews.demon.co.uk 1027719003 9327 193.237.4.110 (26 Jul 2002 21:30:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:30:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!betanews.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112886 According to Chris Thompson : > I have sometimes wondered why I find Pinker so much more pleasant to > read than Dawkins. Maybe it's the way he throws in SF references from > time to time ... :-) I could probably write a whole essay on "why Dawkins isn't my favourite scientist"... but thankfully I won't bother! Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc http://www.paunix.org SDF Public Access UNIX: UNIX accounts and webspace! ###### From: glenco@ukgateway.net (ian glendinning) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 27 Jul 2002 03:41:45 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.64.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1027766505 2142 127.0.0.1 (27 Jul 2002 10:41:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Jul 2002 10:41:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112950 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote in message news:... > According to Chris Thompson : > > I have sometimes wondered why I find Pinker so much more pleasant to > > read than Dawkins. Maybe it's the way he throws in SF references from > > time to time ... :-) > > I could probably write a whole essay on "why Dawkins isn't my > favourite scientist"... but thankfully I won't bother! > > Chris. IG: Which is quite spooky, because one of my heroes was Douglas Adams, and he quoted reading Dawkins as a life-changing experience. Ian Glendinning ###### Message-ID: <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 02:47:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028256433 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:47:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:47:13 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113119 On 7/23/02 1:15 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > In article <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid>, > Nyrath the nearly wise wrote: > >>J Ahlstrom wrote: > > >>>Several years ago I came across a short dialog between a >>>couple of aliens who where amazed that humans are able to >>>think with meat. >>> >>>Can anyone provide a reference? >> >>http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html >> > > > Oh, that was hilarious! And short, too. Very good. > So *that's* why nobody wants to talk to us. What's striking is how many people have the same attitude toward machines -- and how many read that story without getting it. -- ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 2 Aug 2002 15:16:05 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113136 In article <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter wrote: >On 7/23/02 1:15 PM, David Silberstein wrote: >> Oh, that was hilarious! And short, too. Very good. >> So *that's* why nobody wants to talk to us. >What's striking is how many people have the same attitude >toward machines -- and how many read that story without >getting it. Yes, but thinking that machines think really requires ignoring the evidence: quite obviouslly, they're possessed, which is something entirely different . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3D4AA3C9.2BBDA089@hotmail.com> From: george Organization: Give me money, please X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Qwest.net) (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:22:49 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.118.3.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1028302051 151.118.3.166 (Fri, 02 Aug 2002 10:27:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 10:27:31 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113118 Jim Balter wrote: > > On 7/23/02 1:15 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > > In article <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid>, > > Nyrath the nearly wise wrote: > > > >>J Ahlstrom wrote: > > > > > >>>Several years ago I came across a short dialog between a > >>>couple of aliens who where amazed that humans are able to > >>>think with meat. > >>> > >>>Can anyone provide a reference? > >> > >>http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html > >> > > > > > > Oh, that was hilarious! And short, too. Very good. > > So *that's* why nobody wants to talk to us. > > What's striking is how many people have the same attitude > toward machines -- and how many read that story without > getting it. > > -- > I just got another "warning pesticide" flag for the second time in our yard. I figured it was from some Christian neighbor in my perfect neighborhood, trying to point out that I am not supposed to grow weeds in what is supposed to be perfect lawn. I also realized, that a street, where every lawn has an American flag stuck in the lawn and one "Warning Pesticide" flag where weeds are growing out of control, nobody would notice. I mean, this is the US where nobody cares, I figured. Fat people wearing shorts in the mall, showing their white bumpy legs, this is indeed a different world. When the fat women will wear skirts, I'll take care of my perfect lawn. Meanwhile, I'll laugh at the secret messages of that Christian dude. Something that I see but nobody else does. My World War IV message was deleted. I saw that one, but nobody else did. Happy secting Balter. George ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4AA3C9.2BBDA089@hotmail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 04:53:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news1.calgary.shaw.ca 1028350418 24.71.223.147 (Fri, 02 Aug 2002 22:53:38 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 22:53:38 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com.MISMATCH!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news1.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113216 On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:22:49 -0600, george wrote: >I just got another "warning pesticide" flag for the second >time in our yard. > >I figured it was from some Christian neighbor in my perfect >neighborhood, trying to point out that I am not supposed to >grow weeds in what is supposed to be perfect lawn. I also >realized, that a street, where every lawn has an American >flag stuck in the lawn and one "Warning Pesticide" flag >where weeds are growing out of control, nobody would notice. >I mean, this is the US where nobody cares, I figured. Fat >people wearing shorts in the mall, showing their white bumpy >legs, this is indeed a different world. When the fat women >will wear skirts, I'll take care of my perfect lawn. >Meanwhile, I'll laugh at the secret messages of that >Christian dude. Something that I see but nobody else does. In Canada, that would be taken as a protest against use of weedkiller and too few weeds on your lawn: they're trying to ban all retail sale of and domestic use of weedkillers and pesticides in favour of "organic" methods. In a country where half the area (but only about 25% of the population) has a growing season of up to three months, and there's easy access to farm supply stores, it's just stupid. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Message-ID: <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 08:55:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028364905 68.6.38.179 (Sat, 03 Aug 2002 04:55:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 04:55:05 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113218 On 8/2/02 3:15 PM, Ray Blaak wrote: > Jim Balter writes: > >>>Oh, that was hilarious! And short, too. Very good. >>>So *that's* why nobody wants to talk to us. >> >>What's striking is how many people have the same attitude >>toward machines -- and how many read that story without >>getting it. > > > I am not sure that many think it impossible in general for machines to think. So what? > They (at least I) just think that way for the machines that humans currently > know how to build. Shocking though it may be, there are people with opinions on the matter different from yours. -- ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 22:22:16 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com.MISMATCH!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113254 In article <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/2/02 3:15 PM, Ray Blaak wrote: > > Jim Balter writes: > >>>So *that's* why nobody wants to talk to us. > >> > >>What's striking is how many people have the same attitude > >>toward machines -- and how many read that story without > >>getting it. > > > > > > I am not sure that many think it impossible in general for machines to > > think. > > So what? > > > They (at least I) just think that way for the machines that humans currently > > know how to build. > > Shocking though it may be, there are people with opinions on the > matter different from yours. ..not to mention the odd machine. Although they might have wasted a few cycles on the double negatives before they were not not sure. ###### Message-ID: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1028416814 12.237.69.162 (Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:20:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:20:14 GMT Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:20:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113315 Jim Balter wrote: > > [snip....] [snip...] [snip...] > > There are people who believe that we currently have machines that think; > people like John McCarthy, who argues that thermostats > think after a fashion, come to mind. Or people like Garry > Kasparov, who talks about Big Blue making plans, and > isn't being "just metaphorical". I'm in this camp, > but my view is rarely understood because most people > have a muddled Platonic notion of meaning, and so mistake > what "think" means in these contexts. I do not hold > that we have any machines that think just like humans, > although we do have machines that think like humans, > for certain measures of "like". > Once upon a time, people wanted to build a super-super computer that could think just like a human being. So they networked together zillions of processors with all sorts of computing power. When they turned on this machine, the printer immediately output a message. Tearing off the paper...the message read: "That reminds me of a story..." If one has lived for very long, *that* is how they think IMHO. > > There are people who believe that no machines today > think, but that it's theoretically possible to build > machines that think. Ray Blaak says he's in that camp, > and no doubt it's a large one. > I believe that we should work harder to get *people* to think. I heard a comedian say once that he thought the little tags on hair dryers that say "DO NOT USE WHILE SHOWERING" should be removed. His reasoning was: If you are stupid enough to use the hair dryer in the shower, then the world would be better off without you. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 00:45:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1028421929 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:45:29 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:45:29 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113321 On Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:20:14 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >I believe that we should work harder to get *people* to >think. I heard a comedian say once that he thought the >little tags on hair dryers that say "DO NOT USE WHILE >SHOWERING" should be removed. His reasoning was: If >you are stupid enough to use the hair dryer in the >shower, then the world would be better off without you. Seems to be the attitude everywhere else in the world except the litigious US. I had to laugh the other week when GWB made some statement to the effect that the US would not support the World Court (or some such international tribunal) as it might lead to large numbers of trivial claims against Americans, American organisations, or the like. I couldn't help thinking that, if it did, most claims would probably be brought by Americans, and how would that that differ from the domestic US situation? -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Message-ID: <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 04:30:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028435416 68.6.38.179 (Sun, 04 Aug 2002 00:30:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 00:30:16 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113274 On 8/3/02 5:45 PM, Brian Inglis wrote: > On Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:20:14 GMT, Charles Richmond > wrote: > > >>I believe that we should work harder to get *people* to >>think. I heard a comedian say once that he thought the >>little tags on hair dryers that say "DO NOT USE WHILE >>SHOWERING" should be removed. His reasoning was: If >>you are stupid enough to use the hair dryer in the >>shower, then the world would be better off without you. > > > Seems to be the attitude everywhere else in the world except the > litigious US. You don't seem to know anything about what the attitudes are in other parts of the world. > I had to laugh the other week when GWB made some > statement to the effect that the US would not support the World > Court (or some such international tribunal) as it might lead to > large numbers of trivial claims against Americans, American > organisations, or the like. Bush isn't worried about trivial claims, he's worried about non-trivial ones. The American position is that anyone can be subject to international law, or even aggressive warfare, *except* the U.S., because the U.S. is the good guy *by definition*. Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed by a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, accept this reasoning without question. > I couldn't help thinking that, if it > did, most claims would probably be brought by Americans, and how > would that that differ from the domestic US situation? -- ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 08:25:02 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-201-190.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1028449502 4181 213.122.201.190 (4 Aug 2002 08:25:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 08:25:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113302 "Jim Balter" wrote in message news:3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam... > On 8/3/02 5:45 PM, Brian Inglis wrote: > > On Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:20:14 GMT, Charles Richmond > > wrote: > > > > > >>I believe that we should work harder to get *people* to > >>think. I heard a comedian say once that he thought the > >>little tags on hair dryers that say "DO NOT USE WHILE > >>SHOWERING" should be removed. His reasoning was: If > >>you are stupid enough to use the hair dryer in the > >>shower, then the world would be better off without you. > > > > > > Seems to be the attitude everywhere else in the world except the > > litigious US. > > You don't seem to know anything about what the attitudes > are in other parts of the world. > > > I had to laugh the other week when GWB made some > > statement to the effect that the US would not support the World > > Court (or some such international tribunal) as it might lead to > > large numbers of trivial claims against Americans, American > > organisations, or the like. > > Bush isn't worried about trivial claims, he's worried about non-trivial > ones. The American position is that anyone can be subject to > international law, or even aggressive warfare, *except* the > U.S., because the U.S. is the good guy *by definition*. > Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed by > a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, > accept this reasoning without question. > > > I couldn't help thinking that, if it > > did, most claims would probably be brought by Americans, and how > > would that that differ from the domestic US situation? Much as I'd like to put my boot in too, I suggest that follow-ups are redirected to alt.flame and that this thread is introduced to an ambitious gentleman with a side parting and a distinctive moustache. My own personal take on it (being as gentle as I can) is that no one likes to be subject to external rules & laws. This applies to nations too, politicians in particular have a lot to lose, after all they would have to share their power with FOREIGNERS. Imagine that. :/ Cheers, Rupert ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:16:24 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-414.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113291 In article <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net>, richmond@ev1.net says... > Jim Balter wrote: > > > > [snip....] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > There are people who believe that we currently have machines that think; > > people like John McCarthy, who argues that thermostats > > think after a fashion, come to mind. Or people like Garry > > Kasparov, who talks about Big Blue making plans, and > > isn't being "just metaphorical". I'm in this camp, > > but my view is rarely understood because most people > > have a muddled Platonic notion of meaning, and so mistake > > what "think" means in these contexts. I do not hold > > that we have any machines that think just like humans, > > although we do have machines that think like humans, > > for certain measures of "like". > > > > > > Once upon a time, people wanted to build a super-super > computer that could think just like a human being. So > they networked together zillions of processors with all > sorts of computing power. When they turned on this machine, > the printer immediately output a message. > > Tearing off the paper...the message read: > "That reminds me of a story..." > > > > If one has lived for very long, *that* is how they think > IMHO. > > > > There are people who believe that no machines today > > think, but that it's theoretically possible to build > > machines that think. Ray Blaak says he's in that camp, > > and no doubt it's a large one. > > > I believe that we should work harder to get *people* to > think. I heard a comedian say once that he thought the > little tags on hair dryers that say "DO NOT USE WHILE > SHOWERING" should be removed. His reasoning was: If > you are stupid enough to use the hair dryer in the > shower, then the world would be better off without you. They should never have been there to begin with, but some lawyer probably made a case that the company was at fault for not including such a sign. True story--my office mate at Pioneer Parachute (who was also the first man to jump a square parachute) was involved in a lawsuit in which a woman, drunk as a skunk, jumped out of an airplane above the Pacific Ocean, successfully deployed her parachute, and then, at 300 feet altitude, pulled the emergency release and did herself in. The lawyer for the plaintiffs held that Pioneer was at fault because the parachute should have had a sign on it to the effect that pulling the emergency release at 300 feet altitude while drunk as a skunk might be hazardous to your health. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: Michael Ash Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:24:07 -0500 Organization: University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113304 In article , J. Clarke wrote: > The > lawyer for the plaintiffs held that Pioneer was at fault because the > parachute should have had a sign on it to the effect that pulling the > emergency release at 300 feet altitude while drunk as a skunk might be > hazardous to your health. Well.... Who won?? ###### From: dtate@ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 4 Aug 2002 09:53:25 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0208040853.1535d477@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.209.223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028480005 14214 127.0.0.1 (4 Aug 2002 16:53:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 2002 16:53:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113307 Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam>... > Let me waste some cycles on a clarification: [Snipped: Pretty good taxonomy of views on whether machines can, or might someday, think.] There are also some of us who honestly don't know whether machines will ever be able to think in the manner that humans do (i.e. consciously), because nobody has yet figured out the mechanisms by which conscious thought arises. Depending on how that investigation turns out, I could imagine it becoming commonplace to build sentient conscious machines, or everyone agreeing that it's hopeless to even try. David Tate ###### From: dtate@ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 4 Aug 2002 10:01:19 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 58 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.209.223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028480480 14721 127.0.0.1 (4 Aug 2002 17:01:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 2002 17:01:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113309 Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam>... > On 8/3/02 5:45 PM, Brian Inglis wrote: > > On Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:20:14 GMT, Charles Richmond > > wrote: > > > > > >>I believe that we should work harder to get *people* to > >>think. I heard a comedian say once that he thought the > >>little tags on hair dryers that say "DO NOT USE WHILE > >>SHOWERING" should be removed. His reasoning was: If > >>you are stupid enough to use the hair dryer in the > >>shower, then the world would be better off without you. > > > > > > Seems to be the attitude everywhere else in the world except the > > litigious US. > > You don't seem to know anything about what the attitudes > are in other parts of the world. I don't know; his sweeping generalization seems pretty accurate to me, from what I've seen. My favorite example is from Iceland, where my wife and I took our honeymoon. We visited the site of some famous mudpots, where superheated water bubbles to the surface and turns the volcanic ash soil to slurry, surrounded by a thin crust of deposited salts and such. There was a large sign in several languages stating that the mudpots were very dangerous, and that a number of people had fallen through the crust and been very badly injured. The sign advised visitors to stay on the brown parts of the path, since they were the safest. There were, however, no railings, fences, barriers, or other impediments to self-destruction -- a situation that would be totally unthinkable in the US. (The best part of the day was the sudden snowstorm that turned EVERYTHING white, leaving us to try to remember our exact footsteps as we retraced our way back to the car...) > > I had to laugh the other week when GWB made some > > statement to the effect that the US would not support the World > > Court (or some such international tribunal) as it might lead to > > large numbers of trivial claims against Americans, American > > organisations, or the like. > > Bush isn't worried about trivial claims, he's worried about non-trivial > ones. The American position is that anyone can be subject to > international law, or even aggressive warfare, *except* the > U.S., because the U.S. is the good guy *by definition*. > Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed by > a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, > accept this reasoning without question. You, conversely, seem to know very little about the opinions of Americans. Trust me -- many of us are all-too-aware of the hypocricy of the official US government attitude toward 'sovereignty'. David Tate ###### Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:10:25 -0400 From: Kristopher Reply-To: eoslives@net-link.net Organization: The NoWhere Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Followup-To: alt.flame Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Message-ID: <3d4d6013$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 0dfa30d7.news.net-link.net X-Trace: DXC=]9RZ\8nleN4Qa@De9JV2P0bhiU1EQ[HI=hnlL[O6<90?dL>1RDRl;???fAlhV@jZc5lBFDaL\d^n5^i0Fc8eAYE< X-Complaints-To: abuse@net-link.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.net-link.net!reader3-nwblwi.news.net-link.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113300 Jim Balter wrote: > > Brian Inglis wrote: > >> I had to laugh the other week when GWB made some statement >> to the effect that the US would not support the World Court >> (or some such international tribunal) as it might lead to >> large numbers of trivial claims against Americans, American >> organisations, or the like. > > Bush isn't worried about trivial claims, he's worried about > non-trivial ones. The American position is that anyone can > be subject to international law, or even aggressive warfare, > *except* the U.S., because the U.S. is the good guy > *by definition*. I think all countries involved in peacekeeping and other missions in foreign areas should be concerned about the possibility of spurious, even malicious claims and charges against their personel. I don't care what Bush is worried about, that's what _I'm_ worried about. > Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed > by a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, > accept this reasoning without question. That's kind of insulting, Jim. And whose idea was it to crosspost this thread to so many groups, anyway? Is somebody trying to start an intergroup flamewar? Followups set to alt.flame of which I am not a participant. -- Kristopher "I'll never trust myself again, but I don't care... Just set that plastic world on fire, and watch it melt." Monster Magnet -- "Melt" ###### From: Michael Ash Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:21:22 -0500 Organization: University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040853.1535d477@posting.google.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113306 In article <9d67e55e.0208040853.1535d477@posting.google.com>, dtate@ida.org (David Tate) wrote: > There are also some of us who honestly don't know whether machines > will ever be able to think in the manner that humans do (i.e. > consciously), because nobody has yet figured out the mechanisms by > which conscious thought arises. Depending on how that investigation > turns out, I could imagine it becoming commonplace to build sentient > conscious machines, or everyone agreeing that it's hopeless to even > try. I doubt if everyone would ever agree that it's hopeless to try. We have one very good example of a type of sentient machine, so we *know* that it can be done. ###### From: Erik Max Francis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 10:28:27 -0700 Organization: Alcyone Systems Message-ID: <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!nntpserver.com!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113270 Jim Balter wrote: > Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed by > a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, > accept this reasoning without question. But at least you don't have an agenda. -- Erik Max Francis / max@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE / \ See the son in your bad day / Smell the flowers in the valley \__/ Chante Moore Bosskey.net: Aliens vs. Predator 2 / http://www.bosskey.net/avp2/ A personal guide to Aliens vs. Predator 2. ###### From: Mark_Reichert@hotmail.com (Mark Reichert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 4 Aug 2002 10:34:34 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 5 Message-ID: <99e65015.0208040934.1147f61f@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.158.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028482474 16625 127.0.0.1 (4 Aug 2002 17:34:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 2002 17:34:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113305 Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam>... > And there are people who believe that no machine can > possibly ever think. Would they also say that no animal thinks other than humans? ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 04 Aug 02 10:12:48 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-455.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113328 In article <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> jqb@exodus.nospam (Jim Balter) writes: >Some people believe that thinking is a gift from god and so certainly >no machine will ever think. Other people believe that it may be >possible for machines to think but not for digital computers to think. >Some people, like John Searle, believe that in order for a machine to >think it must have "proper causal powers", whatever that means. As a guess, I'd say it means the ability to determine cause and effect, i.e. to be able to predict the consequences of one's actions and act accordingly. If so, then most people in North America (not to mention our society in general) not only lack the ability to think, but take pride in that lack of ability. -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: "John Homes" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:03:31 +1200 Organization: EDS (New Zealand) Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-134-251-165-113.dhcp.nz.eds.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.eds.co.nz!news.nz.eds.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113392 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid... > In article <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> jqb@exodus.nospam > (Jim Balter) writes: > > >Some people believe that thinking is a gift from god and so certainly > >no machine will ever think. Other people believe that it may be > >possible for machines to think but not for digital computers to think. > >Some people, like John Searle, believe that in order for a machine to > >think it must have "proper causal powers", whatever that means. > > As a guess, I'd say it means the ability to determine cause and effect, > i.e. to be able to predict the consequences of one's actions and act > accordingly. > I think otherwise. A properly programmed digital computer could do this (computers that play chess already do, albeit in a *very* limited sphere), and Searle is adamant that whatever "proper causal powers" are, they cannot be programmed into a digital computer. John Homes. ###### Message-ID: <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 22:47:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028501262 68.6.38.179 (Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:47:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:47:42 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113360 On 8/4/02 2:49 PM, Pete Fenelon wrote: > In alt.folklore.computers Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >>As a guess, I'd say it means the ability to determine cause and effect, >>i.e. to be able to predict the consequences of one's actions and act >>accordingly. If so, then most people in North America (not to mention >>our society in general) not only lack the ability to think, but take >>pride in that lack of ability. >> > > > I'm increasingly reminded of Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons" - the > dumb breed earlier and more often than the intelligent, so there's > more and more and more of them... This assumes an inheritability of intelligence beyond the level supported by the facts. Even to the degree that intelligence is inherited, who breeds and when is only partially correlated with intelligence; it's much more strongly correlated with wealth and social status. Part of the problem here is the way we confuse intelligence with knowledge -- does dumb mean "has a low g factor" or "didn't get much education"? Of course, these issues are not of any concern to the dumb among us, especially the dumb ones who think of themselves otherwise. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4DB5A6.7060508@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 71 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 23:18:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028503085 68.6.38.179 (Sun, 04 Aug 2002 19:18:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 19:18:05 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113364 On 8/4/02 3:40 PM, Paul F. Dietz wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>It's not totally unthinkable -- you find the same situation >>in heavily visited Yellowstone, and numerous other places I've been >>that are further off the track. > > > No -- in Yellowstone they have wood or plastic walkways, Yes, they have walkways, because the surface is fragile and walking on it would a) destroy it b) lead to people falling into boiling water. Since random visitors haven't done geological surveys, this seems like a good thing quite independent of lawsuits. In the example in Iceland there were "brown parts of the path", which serve the same purpose. The theme here was getting people to think, but there seems to be a fair amount of railing at good sense instead. > with > railings, around the geysers and hot springs, Then things have changed since I was there. But these railings presumably result in fewer people, especially children, falling in. This is easily explained in terms other than litigation. The person who posted about Iceland commented that there were no impediments to self-destruction -- a complaint about such impediments where there are many many visitors, including families with small children, verges on the sociopathic. Or perhaps one can complain about the accessibility of the hot springs at Yellowstone, but that would be a rather silly sort of elitism. > and they tell > you to DON'T GET OFF THE WALKWAY! in signs everywhere along > them. They advise you of the danger of doing so, which many people underestimate. In the Iceland example that you snipped, so you've probably forgotten it already, "There was a large sign in several languages stating that the mudpots were very dangerous, and that a number of people had fallen through the crust and been very badly injured. The sign advised visitors to stay on the brown parts of the path, since they were the safest." Whether that sign "yelled" we don't know. And the signs at Yellowstone don't really "yell" either, now do they? No doubt they are more numerous -- for which there are reasonable explanations, including that the place covers a large area. When I go to the King's Canyon, I see signs warning people not to feed the bears, explaining why, and I see signs that warn people that the current in King's river is desceptively fast and strong. There are, however, no railings along the river. The same goes for hundreds of dangerous places I've been in the U.S. In a few places there's a sign that says "dangerous current" or "dangerous bridge! or "unstable cliff!", and such. I generally appreciate such warnings, which I have also seen in France, Italy, and other civilized places. Sweeping generalizations and hyperbole are not indications that one is in a good position to "work harder to get *people* to think". -- ###### From: dtate@ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,alt.alien.visitors,alt.folklore.computers,alt.paranet.ufo Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 4 Aug 2002 16:39:48 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 77 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0208041539.519964e2@posting.google.com> References: <3d4d7387@news.victoria.tc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.49.209.223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028504389 5596 127.0.0.1 (4 Aug 2002 23:39:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Aug 2002 23:39:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113420 uj797@victoria.tc.ca (Arthur T. Murray) wrote in message news:<3d4d7387@news.victoria.tc.ca>... > > > > In article <9d67e55e.0208040853.1535d477@posting.google.com>, > > dtate@ida.org (David Tate) wrote: > > > >> There are also some of us who honestly don't know > >> whether machines will ever be able to think in the > >> manner that humans do (i.e. consciously), because > >> nobody has yet figured out the mechanisms by > >> which conscious thought arises. > > http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/theory3.html and > http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/theory5.html tell all. [takes a peek] All!? Hardly. > >> Depending on how that investigation turns out, > >> I could imagine it becoming commonplace to build > >> sentient conscious machines, or everyone agreeing > >> that it's hopeless to even try. > > It has already been done in Forth for intelligent robots at > http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mind4th.html and as a Tutorial at > http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/jsaimind.html -- AI Mind. Even if I were to grant that such tiny toy examples display 'sentience', we would still be no closer to the problem of 'consciousness'. > In response to http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html (q.v.), > Michael Ash wrote on Sun, 04 Aug 2002: > > I doubt if everyone would ever agree that it's hopeless to try. > > We have one very good example of a type of sentient machine, > > so we *know* that it can be done. Well, not quite. We have a black box that exhibits the behavior(s) of interest. It is an axiom of certain popular religions that the black box is a machine; it is an axiom of certain other popular religions that it is not. Assuming that consciousness arises mechanistically does not prove that claim, any more than assuming it cannot arise mechanistically proves *that* claim. Until we understand the mechanism, though -- not just of stimulus/response, but of mental states -- we won't really know. So, there is certainly a sort of knowledge that would let us conclude that building machines that think/feel/etc. like humans is possible. It is always more difficult to prove a negative, but I don't think it's too implausible to say that, if we were to eventually analyze and characterize the electrochemical behavior of brains right down to the quantum level without ever (a) figuring out how consciousness arises, or (b) being able to reproduce the emergent features of consciousness "in vitro", then that would represent pretty daunting evidence that something unmechanistic is going on. Which of those two future positions is deemed more likely by any current individual is a philosophical or religious stance, though -- not a scientific one. Occam's Razor encourages us to stick with the simplest model that explains all the known behavior, but we can't invoke it yet because we don't have ANY model that explains all the known behavior. So, conditionally: if human mental states arise mechanistically from electrochemical brain states, then YES -- certainly -- it should be quite possible to construct machines that are conscious, and have similar sorts of mental states. If, on the other hand, mental states are not emergent epiphenomena over electrochemical processes, then NO, there's no reason to think that we could engender mental states in machines. One of things I admire about Bisson's story is that, no matter which camp one inclines toward, the story is still provocative and amusing. Cheers, David Tate ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:53:58 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <99e65015.0208040934.1147f61f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-422.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113395 In article <99e65015.0208040934.1147f61f@posting.google.com>, Mark_Reichert@hotmail.com says... > Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam>... > > And there are people who believe that no machine can > > possibly ever think. > > Would they also say that no animal thinks other than humans? And then there was Heinlein's hierarchy of quality of intelligence-- human, animal, artificial, military. Whether animals think depends on how you define "think" IMO. A certain amount of animal behavior is learned, not instinctive, and for it to be learned somewhere along the line some critter had to figure out the behavior and then figure out how to teach it. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### Message-ID: <3D4DD1B0.9040704@boutel.co.nz> From: Brian Boutel Organization: X User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4DB5A6.7060508@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:15:28 +1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.96.144.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1028510129 203.96.144.148 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:15:29 NZST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:15:29 NZST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!ps01-chi1!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news.webusenet.com!news02.tsnz.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113345 Jim Balter wrote: > > When I go to the King's Canyon, I see > signs warning people not to feed the bears, explaining why, > and I see signs that warn people that the current in > King's river is desceptively fast and strong. There are, > however, no railings along the river. The same goes > for hundreds of dangerous places I've been in the U.S. > In a few places there's a sign that says "dangerous > current" or "dangerous bridge! or "unstable cliff!", and > such. I generally appreciate such warnings, which I > have also seen in France, Italy, and other civilized places. > There is a big difference between usefully informative warnings about specific local risks - "this bridge is dangerous", "this cliff is unstable" - , dangers which are not immediately apparent to the visitor, and generic warnings about such things as using electrical appliances in the shower, the danger of which should be bloody obvious, and are there purely as a defence against lawsuits - or, if not, assume a *very* low level of common sense among users. The interesting question is about the point at which a defence to a suit for damages that says that "anyone intelligent enough to read a warning would know not to do this anyway" should succeed, and when "but you didn't tell me" should be enough to win. Here, we have a system where there is, in general, no right to sue for damages for personal injury, and there is a compulsory insurance scheme which funds payouts to victims. There is, however, the possibility of criminal liability in some cases under health and safety laws. Consequently, the warnings are a little thinner on the ground than might be the case elsewhere, and silly ones tend only to occur on imported products. --brian -- Brian Boutel Wellington New Zealand Note the NOSPAM ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:25:43 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-824.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113398 In article <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > On 8/4/02 2:49 PM, Pete Fenelon wrote: > > In alt.folklore.computers Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > > >>As a guess, I'd say it means the ability to determine cause and effect, > >>i.e. to be able to predict the consequences of one's actions and act > >>accordingly. If so, then most people in North America (not to mention > >>our society in general) not only lack the ability to think, but take > >>pride in that lack of ability. > >> > > > > > > I'm increasingly reminded of Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons" - the > > dumb breed earlier and more often than the intelligent, so there's > > more and more and more of them... > > This assumes an inheritability of intelligence beyond the level > supported by the facts. Even to the degree that intelligence > is inherited, who breeds and when is only partially correlated > with intelligence; it's much more strongly correlated with > wealth and social status. Yebbut in industrialized societies the correlation is negative--those with wealth and social status tend to have small families. And if they're so dumb howcum they're rich? > Part of the problem here is > the way we confuse intelligence with knowledge -- does > dumb mean "has a low g factor" or "didn't get much > education"? > > Of course, these issues are not of any concern to the > dumb among us, especially the dumb ones who think > of themselves otherwise. > > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 00:38:39 -0400 From: Kristopher Reply-To: eoslives@net-link.net Organization: The NoWhere Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Followup-To: alt.flame Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: e9b09e83.news.net-link.net X-Trace: DXC=EkFHHjZfJ0@YIoWL1S`jMFbhiU1EQ[HIMhnlL[O6<90OdL>1RDRl;?Ob7CEQX@>g^GlBFDaL\d^nEd2_fBkd=eeL X-Complaints-To: abuse@net-link.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newspump.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.net-link.net!reader3-nwblwi.news.net-link.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113409 Jim Balter wrote: > > Erik Max Francis wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>> Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed >>> by a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, >>> accept this reasoning without question. >> >> But at least you don't have an agenda. > > My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when > lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. > Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a > upper middle class white male living in a country that > has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the > world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the > short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. Blah blah blah. *plonk* -- Kristopher "I'll never trust myself again, but I don't care... Just set that plastic world on fire, and watch it melt." Monster Magnet -- "Melt" ###### Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 00:41:55 -0400 From: Kristopher Reply-To: eoslives@net-link.net Organization: The NoWhere Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Followup-To: alt.flame Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3d4d6013$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4DA5DC.10602@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 Message-ID: <3d4e0225$0$1433$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: e9b09e83.news.net-link.net X-Trace: DXC=A99X8j?;JGlen=F_fYMJVnbhiU1EQ[HImhnlL[O6<90odL>1RDRl;?o7efUU3f=mkdlBFDaL\d^ned2_fBkd=eel X-Complaints-To: abuse@net-link.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newspump.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.net-link.net!reader3-nwblwi.news.net-link.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113410 Jim Balter wrote: > > Kristopher wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >>> Brian Inglis wrote: >>> >>>> I had to laugh the other week when GWB made some statement >>>> to the effect that the US would not support the World Court >>>> (or some such international tribunal) as it might lead to >>>> large numbers of trivial claims against Americans, American >>>> organisations, or the like. >>> >>> Bush isn't worried about trivial claims, he's worried about >>> non-trivial ones. The American position is that anyone can >>> be subject to international law, or even aggressive warfare, >>> *except* the U.S., because the U.S. is the good guy >>> *by definition*. >> >> I think all countries involved in peacekeeping and other >> missions in foreign areas should be concerned about the >> possibility of spurious, even malicious claims and charges >> against their personel. I don't care what Bush is worried >> about, that's what _I'm_ worried about. > > Worries about malicious claims is not a basis for making > ad hoc restrictions on the jurisdiction of courts. > Hey, let's have a rule that anybody *except me* can > be charged with a crime and taken to court -- because > I'm worried about malicious claims against me. > If *I* had a military budget larger than the sums of > the military budgets of the next 25 nations combined, > I could insist on such an exception -- as the U.S. does. I don't even think there should be a world court. One look at the UN indicates the likely course of such an endeavor. >>> Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus >>> curtailed by a constant drone of jingoistic and >>> chauvinistic propaganda, accept this reasoning without >>> question. >> >> That's kind of insulting, Jim. > > Sometimes the truth seems insulting. Usually, it's insults that seem insulting. Funny, that. >> And whose idea was it to crosspost this thread to so many >> groups, anyway? > > That's easy enough to figure out (ooh, did I insult you?) > >> Is somebody trying to start an intergroup >> flamewar? Followups set to alt.flame > > If you were really concerned about that, you would have flamed > me there, not here -- or not at all. _I'm_ flaming _you_? HA! *plonk* -- Kristopher "I'll never trust myself again, but I don't care... Just set that plastic world on fire, and watch it melt." Monster Magnet -- "Melt" ###### From: Erik Max Francis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 21:50:47 -0700 Organization: Alcyone Systems Message-ID: <3D4E0427.ACDED87E@alcyone.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113347 Jim Balter wrote: > My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when > lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. ... You seem to be lost. Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat -- Erik Max Francis / max@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE / \ See the son in your bad day / Smell the flowers in the valley \__/ Chante Moore Bosskey.net: Aliens vs. Predator 2 / http://www.bosskey.net/avp2/ A personal guide to Aliens vs. Predator 2. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <99e65015.0208040934.1147f61f@posting.google.com> From: Dowe Keller Date: 04 Aug 2002 22:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.236 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.236 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1028521252 206.169.219.236 (4 Aug 2002 21:20:52 -0700) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113375 J. Clarke writes: > And then there was Heinlein's hierarchy of quality of intelligence-- > human, animal, artificial, military. That sounds about right to me :-) > Whether animals think depends on how you define "think" IMO. A certain > amount of animal behavior is learned, not instinctive, and for it to be > learned somewhere along the line some critter had to figure out the > behavior and then figure out how to teach it. The question of animal thought is a tricky question for the simple fact that the word "animal" covers a lot of territory, as does the word "think". I believe that only a humanist bigot would believe that the great apes are without thought, when almost everyone would agree that an amoeba doesn't think (one could, I suppose define "think" as "react to stimuli", but that would throw open the door to thinking plants and even inorganic thought). Some mammals I believe have many of the same mental capabilities as we. -- dowe@sierratel.com Win98 is called Win98 because there is a 98% probability that it will crash during installation ###### Message-ID: <3D4E1231.9090109@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <99e65015.0208040934.1147f61f@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:52:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028526776 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 01:52:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 01:52:56 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113350 On 8/4/02 4:53 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <99e65015.0208040934.1147f61f@posting.google.com>, > Mark_Reichert@hotmail.com says... > >>Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam>... >> >>>And there are people who believe that no machine can >>>possibly ever think. >> >>Would they also say that no animal thinks other than humans? > > > And then there was Heinlein's hierarchy of quality of intelligence-- > human, animal, artificial, military. > > Whether animals think depends on how you define "think" IMO. A certain > amount of animal behavior is learned, not instinctive, and for it to be > learned somewhere along the line some critter had to figure out the > behavior and then figure out how to teach it. So you've never learned anything without someone else present? One learns from experience; teaching is only one kind of experience. Of course humans, with their ability to abstract information both in their brains and in their language, have taken social learning to a level far beyond any other animal. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E15DC.4010404@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4DB5A6.7060508@exodus.nospam> <3D4DD1B0.9040704@boutel.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 65 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:08:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028527715 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:08:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:08:35 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113358 On 8/4/02 6:15 PM, Brian Boutel wrote: > > > Jim Balter wrote: > >> >> When I go to the King's Canyon, I see >> signs warning people not to feed the bears, explaining why, >> and I see signs that warn people that the current in >> King's river is desceptively fast and strong. There are, >> however, no railings along the river. The same goes >> for hundreds of dangerous places I've been in the U.S. >> In a few places there's a sign that says "dangerous >> current" or "dangerous bridge! or "unstable cliff!", and >> such. I generally appreciate such warnings, which I >> have also seen in France, Italy, and other civilized places. >> > > > There is a big difference between usefully informative warnings about > specific local risks - "this bridge is dangerous", "this cliff is > unstable" - , dangers which are not immediately apparent to the visitor, > and generic warnings about such things as using electrical appliances > in the shower, the danger of which should be bloody obvious, and are > there purely as a defence against lawsuits - or, if not, assume a *very* > low level of common sense among users. Indeed there is, but *I* am not the one who made the transition. Someone else gave the example of mud pits in Iceland, saying that the same level of exposure is unthinkable in the U.S. But not only is it thinkable here, but it occurs often. > The interesting question is about the point at which a defence to a suit > for damages that says that "anyone intelligent enough to read a warning > would know not to do this anyway" should succeed, This happens a lot less than people suppose -- they have largely bought the "litigious society" propaganda of the insurance companies, who have a very large amount of money to spend on their campaign, with the aim of legislation that caps liability and awards. > and when "but you > didn't tell me" should be enough to win. Some juries are sensible about such things and some aren't. Having served on civil cases, I can tell you that it has a lot to do with what axe people are grinding. > Here, we have a system where there is, in general, no right to sue for > damages for personal injury, and there is a compulsory insurance scheme > which funds payouts to victims. There is, however, the possibility of > criminal liability in some cases under health and safety laws. > Consequently, the warnings are a little thinner on the ground than might > be the case elsewhere, and silly ones tend only to occur on imported > products. Indeed, much of the situation in the U.S. is due to the privatization of insurance and its deregulation. Insurance is like a bank in which you keep depositing money but you're never able to withdraw anything. Or like a casino with really really bad odds. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E18AE.4060101@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:20:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028528437 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:20:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:20:37 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113359 On 8/4/02 7:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > >>On 8/4/02 2:49 PM, Pete Fenelon wrote: >> >>>In alt.folklore.computers Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>> >>> >>>>As a guess, I'd say it means the ability to determine cause and effect, >>>>i.e. to be able to predict the consequences of one's actions and act >>>>accordingly. If so, then most people in North America (not to mention >>>>our society in general) not only lack the ability to think, but take >>>>pride in that lack of ability. >>>> >>> >>> >>>I'm increasingly reminded of Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons" - the >>>dumb breed earlier and more often than the intelligent, so there's >>>more and more and more of them... >> >>This assumes an inheritability of intelligence beyond the level >>supported by the facts. Even to the degree that intelligence >>is inherited, who breeds and when is only partially correlated >>with intelligence; it's much more strongly correlated with >>wealth and social status. > > > Yebbut in industrialized societies the correlation is negative--those > with wealth and social status tend to have small families. Right; that's obviously what I meant -- well, obvious to someone who isn't dumb. > And if > they're so dumb howcum they're rich? Since correlation between wealth and intelligence hasn't been mentioned, that question is a non sequitur / dumb. Wealth and social status correlate with education, which correlates with small family size. As for how *some* dumb people might become rich, just look and George W. Bush and Dan Quayle. >>Part of the problem here is >>the way we confuse intelligence with knowledge -- does >>dumb mean "has a low g factor" or "didn't get much >>education"? >> >>Of course, these issues are not of any concern to the >>dumb among us, especially the dumb ones who think >>of themselves otherwise. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:40:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028529643 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:40:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:40:43 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113362 On 8/4/02 9:38 PM, Kristopher wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > >>Erik Max Francis wrote: >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed >>>>by a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, >>>>accept this reasoning without question. >>> >>>But at least you don't have an agenda. >> >>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. >>Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a >>upper middle class white male living in a country that >>has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the >>world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the >>short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. > > > Blah blah blah. > > *plonk* It seems that Kristopher is more adept at beating it than thinking with it. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D4E0427.ACDED87E@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:45:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028529919 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:45:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:45:19 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113352 On 8/4/02 9:50 PM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. ... > > > You seem to be lost. I got to where you led with your comment about my agenda, you fucking hypocrite. The thread is about thinking with your meat, something that you've failed to demonstrate an aptitude for. > > Newsgroups: > rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers > Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat > -- ###### From: Bill Snyder Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 02:06:58 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 38 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Aug 5 02:05:41 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !coJ01k-XLZ[/lC1-@Ze0flQ> (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal12.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113369 On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:40:43 GMT, Jim Balter wrote: >On 8/4/02 9:38 PM, Kristopher wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>>Erik Max Francis wrote: >>> >>>>Jim Balter wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed >>>>>by a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, >>>>>accept this reasoning without question. >>>> >>>>But at least you don't have an agenda. >>> >>>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. >>>Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a >>>upper middle class white male living in a country that >>>has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the >>>world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the >>>short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. >> >> >> Blah blah blah. >> >> *plonk* > >It seems that Kristopher is more adept at beating it than thinking with it. You should certainly be an expert on that, dickhead. -- Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.] ###### Message-ID: <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:18:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028531912 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 03:18:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 03:18:32 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113349 On 8/5/02 12:06 AM, Bill Snyder wrote: > On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:40:43 GMT, Jim Balter > wrote: > > >>On 8/4/02 9:38 PM, Kristopher wrote: >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Erik Max Francis wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Jim Balter wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Most Americans, having had their thinking apparatus curtailed >>>>>>by a constant drone of jingoistic and chauvinistic propaganda, >>>>>>accept this reasoning without question. >>>>> >>>>>But at least you don't have an agenda. >>>> >>>>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>>>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. >>>>Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a >>>>upper middle class white male living in a country that >>>>has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the >>>>world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the >>>>short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. >>> >>> >>>Blah blah blah. >>> >>>*plonk* >> >>It seems that Kristopher is more adept at beating it than thinking with it. > > > You should certainly be an expert on that, dickhead. > > Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now responded to my politically incorrect comments (in the U.S., especially after 9/11, only jingoism is politically correct) with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. -- ###### From: mentifex@scn.org (Arthur T. Murray) Newsgroups: bionet.neuroscience,rec.arts.sf.science,sci.med.psychobiology,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 5 Aug 2002 00:58:13 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 39 Message-ID: <662dfbc2.0208042358.42741524@posting.google.com> References: <3d4d7387@news.victoria.tc.ca> <3D4D7AF4.716175D9@irtc.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.214.12.132 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028534294 1569 127.0.0.1 (5 Aug 2002 07:58:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2002 07:58:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113418 Terrafamilia wrote in message news:<3D4D7AF4.716175D9@irtc.net>... > "Arthur T. Murray" wrote: > > > In response to http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html (q.v.), > > Michael Ash wrote on Sun, 04 Aug 2002: > > > > > > In article <9d67e55e.0208040853.1535d477@posting.google.com>, > > > dtate@ida.org (David Tate) wrote: > > > > > >> There are also some of us who honestly don't know > > >> whether machines will ever be able to think in the > > >> manner that humans do (i.e. consciously), because > > >> nobody has yet figured out the mechanisms by > > >> which conscious thought arises. > > > > http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/theory3.html and > > http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/theory5.html tell all. > > > > >> Depending on how that investigation turns out, > > >> I could imagine it becoming commonplace to build > > >> sentient conscious machines, or everyone agreeing > > >> that it's hopeless to even try. > > > > It has already been done in Forth for intelligent robots at > > http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/mind4th.html and as a Tutorial at > > http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/jsaimind.html -- AI Mind. > > And I'm sure you are waiting patiently for the Nobel committee > to get in touch with you. Any member of the neuroscience brethren and sistren (not me, a P.O.N.A.) has a chance at the prize in physiology or medicine if they map the brain to locate _any_ valid Theory of Mind. > > Ciao, > > Terrafamilia ###### From: Erik Max Francis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 01:04:56 -0700 Organization: Alcyone Systems Message-ID: <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113343 Jim Balter wrote: > Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now > responded to my politically incorrect comments ... > with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates > something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. > Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. Either that, or we couldn't care less about what you're saying, and rather would like you to find a more topical newsgroup in which to say it. -- Erik Max Francis / max@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE / \ See the son in your bad day / Smell the flowers in the valley \__/ Chante Moore Bosskey.net: Aliens vs. Predator 2 / http://www.bosskey.net/avp2/ A personal guide to Aliens vs. Predator 2. ###### From: Erik Max Francis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 01:05:43 -0700 Organization: Alcyone Systems Message-ID: <3D4E31D7.7532D9D@alcyone.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D4E0427.ACDED87E@alcyone.com> <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113340 Jim Balter wrote: > I got to where you led with your comment about > my agenda, you fucking hypocrite. I'm a hypocrite because you're posting off topic, and I'm asking you to cram it? How does that work, exactly? Are you _trying_ to sound stupid? -- Erik Max Francis / max@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE / \ See the son in your bad day / Smell the flowers in the valley \__/ Chante Moore Bosskey.net: Aliens vs. Predator 2 / http://www.bosskey.net/avp2/ A personal guide to Aliens vs. Predator 2. ###### Message-ID: <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 09:59:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028541567 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:59:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 05:59:27 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113363 On 8/5/02 1:04 AM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now >>responded to my politically incorrect comments ... >>with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates >>something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. >>Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. > > > Either that, or we couldn't care less about what you're saying, and > rather would like you to find a more topical newsgroup in which to say > it. You cared enough to claim that I had an agenda, jackass. This thread is about thinking with meat -- I'm able to do that well enough to know that your alternative is not correct. My comments were in response to related comments that were not treated the same way. It's the position I took that caused your response, so stop being such an intellectual coward and simply admit it. And as for the other two, plonking is a far stronger response than one would expect simply for something off topic. Only a very stupid person would buy your line. If you didn't want to see these comments in thse newsgroups, you would simply stop responding. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E4C49.1090201@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D4E0427.ACDED87E@alcyone.com> <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31D7.7532D9D@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 10:00:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028541651 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:00:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:00:51 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113353 On 8/5/02 1:05 AM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>I got to where you led with your comment about >>my agenda, you fucking hypocrite. > > > I'm a hypocrite because you're posting off topic, and I'm asking you to > cram it? How does that work, exactly? Are you _trying_ to sound > stupid? You're a hypocrite because my comment about my agenda is no more off topic than your comment about my agenda. Are you really THAT stupid? -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 10:11:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028542299 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:11:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:11:39 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113355 On 8/4/02 3:40 PM, Paul F. Dietz wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>It's not totally unthinkable -- you find the same situation >>in heavily visited Yellowstone, and numerous other places I've been >>that are further off the track. > > > No -- in Yellowstone they have wood or plastic walkways, with > railings, around the geysers and hot springs, and they tell > you to DON'T GET OFF THE WALKWAY! in signs everywhere along > them. Or not: http://www.thuntek.net/~rradliff/usa/yel/yellow.htm http://travelwithkids.about.com/library/yellowstone/blgeothermalst.htm http://www.nps.gov/yell/sotp/seven/trails.pdf -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> From: "Paul F. Dietz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:14:32 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-gSxYCM1WQyDU6V+VEcYMhKHSfqc7YFw+H6EZfcMdljezBq4vJXn5kqSYgARRGyHduOz0Ov0xsFa3M2E!btKk9Ru7x0Iumjrr08now0BdUVDK42haxhRLXDGdEJx1VHt3vXHPSvDpXBQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:14:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!216.166.71.11!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113428 Jim Balter wrote: > > No -- in Yellowstone they have wood or plastic walkways, with > > railings, around the geysers and hot springs, and they tell > > you to DON'T GET OFF THE WALKWAY! in signs everywhere along > > them. > > Or not: Jim, I was there two years ago. Wonderful place. The major geyser fields have walkways. These walkways are often at some distance from the geysers themselves, so they would not show up in a closeup shot. You are not allowed to walk close to the geysers. There are hundreds of geysers at Yellowstone, and even more hot springs, so I am sure many are not so protected, particularly the ones in the back country. They sell an interesting book there about all the different ways to die in Yellowstone. One nasty story involves a boy who got off the walkways and fell into a hot spring. When his body surfaced a few days later it was ... tenderized. I did see tourists doing amazingly stupid things with the wildlife, though, like surrounding some elk for photos. At least they were treating the bison with more respect. Must have been the videos they had at the visitors center showing idiots being gored. I think the walkways are only partially to protect tourists. They are also there to protect the geothermal features from the tourists. Paul ###### Message-ID: <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 71 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:00:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028548854 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:00:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:00:54 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113357 On 8/5/02 4:14 AM, Paul F. Dietz wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>>No -- in Yellowstone they have wood or plastic walkways, with >>>railings, around the geysers and hot springs, and they tell >>>you to DON'T GET OFF THE WALKWAY! in signs everywhere along >>>them. >> >>Or not: > > > Jim, I was there two years ago. Wonderful place. The major > geyser fields have walkways. These walkways are often at > some distance from the geysers themselves, so they would not > show up in a closeup shot. You are not allowed to walk close to > the geysers. After I posted those links I followed some of them a bit further and found several photos of guard rails. OTOH, there are also some photos showing unguarded hot springs. I think one of the issues with geysers is that they expend steam unexpectedly. Of course there could be a sign saying that rather than a guardrail, but that's not an argument *against* guardrails. > There are hundreds of geysers at Yellowstone, and even more hot > springs, so I am sure many are not so protected, particularly the > ones in the back country. > > They sell an interesting book there about all the different > ways to die in Yellowstone. One nasty story involves a boy > who got off the walkways and fell into a hot spring. When his > body surfaced a few days later it was ... tenderized. And was there a discussion of the family suing? I'm not even sure that they can sue, since it's a National Park and government agents are immune from being sued for actions that are a matter of them performing their official duties. > I did see tourists doing amazingly stupid things with the wildlife, > though, like surrounding some elk for photos. I've seen programmers and science fiction writers doing amazingly stupid things in other contexts. I'll bet quite a few of them even do amazingly stupid things when they go on vacation. Steve Allen's book /Dumbth/ comes to mind. > At least they > were treating the bison with more respect. Must have been the videos > they had at the visitors center showing idiots being gored. > > I think the walkways are only partially to protect tourists. They > are also there to protect the geothermal features from the tourists. Yup, I noted that in my earlier post. I also note that this discussion, in fact this whole thread since Charles Richmond made a comment about tags on hair dryers, has passed without comment from Erik Max Francis about it being off topic. Only after I responded to his snide reference to my "agenda" did he accuse me of being off-topic and then pretended that this had nothing to do with my political position. I suggest that anyone who buys that is "doing amazingly stupid things". -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4E72BE.5507491A@dls.net> From: "Paul F. Dietz" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 07:24:10 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-pRViSjaaOeIAiFhHgBGjSpcE+eVBusmRdT2jvOjjWUJZJe5JS5Km0yzum4lbuCTULo3Jina6suoNmjT!q0Yfg7I8TOMGFHlf0eMg7oWewCgY7ZfW4fXI7jH2Eko5kYh1FAxHWdYgkcQ= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:24:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!jfk3-feed1.news.algx.net!ord2-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113427 Jim Balter wrote: > I've seen programmers and science fiction writers doing amazingly > stupid things in other contexts. I'll bet quite a few of > them even do amazingly stupid things when they go on vacation. > Steve Allen's book /Dumbth/ comes to mind. Yes, the 'people are dumb, except for us!' bit of idiocy is quite common. Fans are slans, etc. But everyone has the capacity to be an idiot. Paul ###### Message-ID: <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> From: Steve Taylor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:30:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.51.156.90 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1028550600 203.51.156.90 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:30:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:30:00 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!203.50.2.88!intgwlon.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113371 Jim Balter wrote: > I've seen programmers and science fiction writers doing amazingly > stupid things in other contexts. My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. > Steve ###### From: dtate@ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 5 Aug 2002 05:53:45 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 40 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0208050453.f33de5c@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4DB5A6.7060508@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.246.254.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028552025 19423 127.0.0.1 (5 Aug 2002 12:53:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2002 12:53:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113422 Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4DB5A6.7060508@exodus.nospam>... > On 8/4/02 3:40 PM, Paul F. Dietz wrote: > > Jim Balter wrote: > > > >>It's not totally unthinkable -- you find the same situation > >>in heavily visited Yellowstone, and numerous other places I've been > >>that are further off the track. > > > > No -- in Yellowstone they have wood or plastic walkways, > > Yes, they have walkways, because the surface is fragile and > walking on it would a) destroy it b) lead to people falling > into boiling water. Since random visitors haven't done > geological surveys, this seems like a good thing quite > independent of lawsuits. In the example in Iceland > there were "brown parts of the path", which > serve the same purpose. I didn't describe that part well, I'm afraid. The 'brown parts' were not a formal thing, nor a man-made guide -- they were simply places where people had walked before and worn a path, and where there was no encrustation of salts. I've been to Yellowstone, and the contrast was striking. Not that I'm saying that's necessarily a *bad* thing -- I'm just saying there was a noticeable difference. > > with > > railings, around the geysers and hot springs, > > Then things have changed since I was there. But these > railings presumably result in fewer people, especially > children, falling in. This is easily explained in terms > other than litigation. The person who posted about > Iceland commented that there were no impediments to > self-destruction -- a complaint about such impediments > where there are many many visitors, including families > with small children, verges on the sociopathic. Um, where did you see a 'complaint' about any of this? David Tate ###### From: dtate@ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 5 Aug 2002 06:24:55 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 66 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0208050524.6729a815@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040853.1535d477@posting.google.com> <3D4DA306.8020900@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.246.254.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028553896 21438 127.0.0.1 (5 Aug 2002 13:24:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2002 13:24:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113419 Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4DA306.8020900@exodus.nospam>... > On 8/4/02 9:53 AM, David Tate wrote: > > Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam>... > > > >>Let me waste some cycles on a clarification: > > > > > > [Snipped: Pretty good taxonomy of views on whether machines can, or > > might someday, think.] > > > > There are also some of us who honestly don't know whether machines > > will ever be able to think in the manner that humans do (i.e. > > consciously), because nobody has yet figured out the mechanisms by > > which conscious thought arises. Depending on how that investigation > > turns out, I could imagine it becoming commonplace to build sentient > > conscious machines, or everyone agreeing that it's hopeless to even > > try. > > But that appears to be a pragmatic objection, rather than a > theoretical objection. Correct. I believe that we are as yet too ignorant of what is possible to be able to speculate usefully. [...] > I think one of the traps is in > thinking that, because we can apply a single word to > something, like "consciousness" or "mind", that therefore > we're really talking about a single thing. I agree -- there is a world of difference between being able to explain (say) belief formation in a behaviorist sense, versus being able to explain subjective mental states, in a reductionist way. It would not surprise me if we figure out a mechanism for the former long before we acquire clue #1 about the latter. [...] > But the mind is what the brain does, *whatever* that is, This is one possible axiom, and a metaphysical one at that. A religious belief, if you will. Until we have some notion of *how* things like mental states and subjective experiences could arise from brain states, it remains a tenet of faith in strong AI that we *will* figure that out, and a tenet of various other faiths that we won't. Until then, it's circular to argue (as I have seen some people argue) that the mind is whatever the brain does because materialism is true, and that materialism is established by the fact that our meat brains are enough to generate minds. This, however, is not the newsgroup for discussing whose faith is justified. (And it's a neat feature of Bisson's story that it tends to produce discussions like this one...) Cheers, David Tate PS -- I agree that Searle's stated position is silly, if he is really saying that meat minds have causal properties that couldn't arise in mechanical minds. Hardware or wetware, the laws of physics are what they are. The only available alternative to "minds are brains are machines" is "minds require something else in addition to material causation", which sends you immediately off into Cartesian Dualism land, like it or not... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:yyYPhxNp8czCWh/OrNBqFyEE/e8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:25:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.1.80 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1028553914 209.245.1.80 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:25:14 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 06:25:14 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113391 J. Clarke writes: > Yebbut in industrialized societies the correlation is negative--those > with wealth and social status tend to have small families. And if > they're so dumb howcum they're rich? i think some UN study in non-industrial societies showed inverse correlation between female edudation and family size (the more education the female has, the smaller the family size). wealth may be somewhat correlated with knowledge ... not necessarily IQ; even little things like knowing when to plant, how to prepare food, sanitation, etc. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Message-ID: <3D4E806B.6080302@io.com.invalid> From: Nyrath the nearly wise Organization: the Praeternatural Tower User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:36:59 CDT X-Trace: sv3-Whk5BZ4vU4rik0KEATcqGbWv4cb98jZCAYVX70HNpboAzyb2OCxG4UsnOv2yNfIeRbKFf+PTFkaZUWM!BfQbKKnvhSzm+F+utgsb2GA4x7AazqGsEJBS4CSl3arqISaE80l8KUmGSZv8iH29fQA9X5GvYg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:36:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!easynews!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113354 Jim Balter wrote: >>>http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html > > What's striking is how many people have the same attitude > toward machines -- and how many read that story without > getting it. gardyloo! ###### Message-ID: <3D4E80FA.7010904@io.com.invalid> From: Nyrath the nearly wise Organization: the Praeternatural Tower User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Followup-To: alt.flame Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:39:23 CDT X-Trace: sv3-fjJPV5bvtGeNny0Y1L+dXTMOM9ZBo0WCbM+i94ZJu9mtOwXkJJhqJ+ko0EazHj1bK1fAoG5+fXpudti!azbVZcbI1nkON0o9kV5o2VbG4mYXygXHmxRt8FVgFrZX5OkMWMkqNKy2h4dpY65jO47tS2fetg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:39:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!wanadoo.fr!proxad.net!proxad.net!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113365 Jim Balter wrote: > My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when > lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. > Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a > upper middle class white male living in a country that > has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the > world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the > short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. I repeat: gardyloo! ###### Message-ID: <3D4E816A.7060803@io.com.invalid> From: Nyrath the nearly wise Organization: the Praeternatural Tower User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Followup-To: alt.flame Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D4E0427.ACDED87E@alcyone.com> <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31D7.7532D9D@alcyone.com> <3D4E4C49.1090201@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:41:15 CDT X-Trace: sv3-012Gvfd8bmXN0vuBpiHLWwrjryPO4FMbj/i4koO14uGjYxjG6KKcr/bxUAC7n1pgnHeu5FDypP01GCn!qU1Es/teE9mIUx0vXIs9D3hKT2ZtMKEraR9nYODSeEE/U7Kadmm6bYaNeAdLUvb+4XNLetbVMQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:41:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113361 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/5/02 1:05 AM, Erik Max Francis wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >>>I got to where you led with your comment about >>>my agenda, you fucking hypocrite. >> >> I'm a hypocrite because you're posting off topic, and I'm asking you to >> cram it? How does that work, exactly? Are you _trying_ to sound >> stupid? > > You're a hypocrite because my comment about my agenda > is no more off topic than your comment about my agenda. > Are you really THAT stupid? For the third time: gardyloo! ###### From: Erik Max Francis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 11:03:39 -0700 Organization: Alcyone Systems Message-ID: <3D4EBDFB.E7C95125@alcyone.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113348 Jim Balter wrote: > You cared enough to claim that I had an agenda, jackass. Because you do. You're here to bitch about the United States, even though that is off-topi cof revery single newsgroup that you're crossposting to. Wake up. -- Erik Max Francis / max@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE / \ See the son in your bad day / Smell the flowers in the valley \__/ Chante Moore Bosskey.net: Aliens vs. Predator 2 / http://www.bosskey.net/avp2/ A personal guide to Aliens vs. Predator 2. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:40:08 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-134-60.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: venus.btinternet.com 1028572808 29749 213.1.134.60 (5 Aug 2002 18:40:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:40:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113406 "Steve Taylor" wrote in message news:3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au... > Jim Balter wrote: > > > I've seen programmers and science fiction writers doing amazingly > > stupid things in other contexts. > > My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin > accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her > television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. Some people would do that for fun or spite. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 05 Aug 02 16:17:35 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <592.982T1766T9774899@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> <3D4EBDFB.E7C95125@alcyone.com> <3D4EFE6E.9030904@exodus.nospam> <3D4F01A1.28ADCD34@alcyone.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-215.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113522 In article <3D4F01A1.28ADCD34@alcyone.com> max@alcyone.com (Erik Max Francis) writes: >Jim Balter wrote: > >> The point was that you cared, and then lied that you didn't. > >I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously if you think >suggesting that you're behaving like an ass qualifies as "caring." >However, whatever you prefer. You're really doing a great job of >selling yourself, here. Please don't feed the trolls. -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 05 Aug 02 16:22:08 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <908.982T419T9823792@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-249.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113514 In article dark.try-eating- this.b00ng@btinternet.com (Rupert Pigott) writes: >"Steve Taylor" wrote in message >news:3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au... > >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>> I've seen programmers and science fiction writers doing amazingly >>> stupid things in other contexts. >> >> My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin >> accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her >> television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. > >Some people would do that for fun or spite. :) Maybe she _really_ hated that TV and was looking for an excuse to get rid of it. "If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway." -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 06 Aug 02 11:26:19 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> <3D4F005E.6090501@exodus.nospam> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb+qy25gUBqLc8tqHXz8bIUAry+Xn6qHLgHN0HptW4MHihxNceRAgmp X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2002 12:33:13 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-64 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113484 In article <3D4F005E.6090501@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter wrote: >On 8/5/02 2:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote: >> > >Just another intellectual coward. Oh, fuck off. I think you may understand that intellectual concept. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:47:02 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Lines: 19 Message-ID: <68omia.bav1.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-Trace: betanews.demon.co.uk 1028581204 13296 193.237.4.110 (5 Aug 2002 21:00:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:00:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!betanews.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113473 According to Rupert Pigott : > "Steve Taylor" wrote in message > > My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin > > accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her > > television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. > > Some people would do that for fun or spite. :) In the case of a sysadmin the general line of thought would tend to be "I've heard that something Really Bad happens if I do this but I haven't seen it firsthand, so here's a great opportunity to see for myself." Probably more or less the same thing that drives anybody of a technical persuasion, scientists in particular I'd guess. Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc http://www.paunix.org SDF Public Access UNIX: UNIX accounts and webspace! ###### From: "Jeanette" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> <68omia.bav1.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 21:40:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.31.132.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk X-Trace: news-text.cableinet.net 1028583651 62.31.132.162 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:40:51 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:40:51 BST Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113552 Chris Hedley wrote in message news:68omia.bav1.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to Rupert Pigott : > > "Steve Taylor" wrote in message > > > My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin > > > accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her > > > television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. > > > > Some people would do that for fun or spite. :) > > In the case of a sysadmin the general line of thought would tend to > be "I've heard that something Really Bad happens if I do this but I > haven't seen it firsthand, so here's a great opportunity to see for > myself." Probably more or less the same thing that drives anybody > of a technical persuasion, scientists in particular I'd guess. > > Chris. > -- You could be right. When I was a student, I lived in a house that had about half a dozen 'dead' TV's stored in the cellar. Inevitably, one day, we dragged one upstairs and lobbed stones at it just to see whether the CRT would implode as spectacularly as we had heard it would. Well, it wasn't quite as good as we hoped, but we were reasonably impressed by it. That's when I started to notice a difference between female scientists and male scientists. Although both sexes were equally keen to see what happened, I noticed that the boys lobbed the stones, and the girls made a note of where the first aid kit was, then stood well back and observed the results :-) Jeanette ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:46:28 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam> <3D4E18AE.4060101@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-097.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113509 In article <3D4E18AE.4060101@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > On 8/4/02 7:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > > In article <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > > > >>On 8/4/02 2:49 PM, Pete Fenelon wrote: > >> > >>>In alt.folklore.computers Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>As a guess, I'd say it means the ability to determine cause and effect, > >>>>i.e. to be able to predict the consequences of one's actions and act > >>>>accordingly. If so, then most people in North America (not to mention > >>>>our society in general) not only lack the ability to think, but take > >>>>pride in that lack of ability. > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>I'm increasingly reminded of Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons" - the > >>>dumb breed earlier and more often than the intelligent, so there's > >>>more and more and more of them... > >> > >>This assumes an inheritability of intelligence beyond the level > >>supported by the facts. Even to the degree that intelligence > >>is inherited, who breeds and when is only partially correlated > >>with intelligence; it's much more strongly correlated with > >>wealth and social status. > > > > > > Yebbut in industrialized societies the correlation is negative--those > > with wealth and social status tend to have small families. > > Right; that's obviously what I meant -- well, obvious to > someone who isn't dumb. > > > And if > > they're so dumb howcum they're rich? > > Since correlation between wealth and intelligence > hasn't been mentioned, that question is > a non sequitur / dumb. Hasn't anybody ever told you that there are no dumb questions, only dumb answers? > Wealth and social status > correlate with education, which correlates with > small family size. Do they now? I'd like to see the correlation. I know more wealthy high-school dropouts than wealthy PhDs, and Bill Gates never finished college. Education tends to be the result of wealth and social status, as the second generation is forced kicking and screaming to get an education, it does not seem to be causal. > As for how *some* dumb people > might become rich, just look and George W. Bush > and Dan Quayle. Don't try to make this a political debate. > >>Part of the problem here is > >>the way we confuse intelligence with knowledge -- does > >>dumb mean "has a low g factor" or "didn't get much > >>education"? > >> > >>Of course, these issues are not of any concern to the > >>dumb among us, especially the dumb ones who think > >>of themselves otherwise. > > -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:46:31 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-098.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113511 In article <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > On 8/5/02 1:04 AM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > > Jim Balter wrote: > > > > > >>Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now > >>responded to my politically incorrect comments ... > >>with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates > >>something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. > >>Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. > > > > > > Either that, or we couldn't care less about what you're saying, and > > rather would like you to find a more topical newsgroup in which to say > > it. > > You cared enough to claim that I had an agenda, jackass. > This thread is about thinking with meat -- I'm able to do that > well enough to know that your alternative is not correct. You would certainly know about thinking with meat. > My comments were in response to related comments that were > not treated the same way. It's the position I took that > caused your response, so stop being such an intellectual > coward and simply admit it. And as for the other two, > plonking is a far stronger response than one would > expect simply for something off topic. Only a very > stupid person would buy your line. If you didn't > want to see these comments in thse newsgroups, > you would simply stop responding. As a flame warrior, you rank about on a par with a block of dry ice. As for plonking you, personally, I have ADHD--it is very difficult for me to resist responding to such easy victims. Hence I plonk you so that I can get some work done. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 17:46:33 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D4E0427.ACDED87E@alcyone.com> <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-099.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113513 In article <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > On 8/4/02 9:50 PM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > > Jim Balter wrote: > > > > > >>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when > >>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. ... > > > > > > You seem to be lost. > > I got to where you led with your comment about > my agenda, you fucking hypocrite. The thread is > about thinking with your meat, something that > you've failed to demonstrate an aptitude for. Perhaps you're not aware that "meat" in the US can be a euphemism for certain portions of the male anatomy. I'll leave the interpretation of "thinking with your meat" to the reader as an exercise. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: Matthias Warkus Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.science Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:58:27 +0200 Organization: T-Online Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.t-online.com 1028620366 00 26942 TFjhb+kGT2A4Kl 020806 07:52:46 X-Complaints-To: abuse@t-online.com X-Sender: 340092246204-0001@t-dialin.net User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsmm00.sul.t-online.com!t-online.de!news.t-online.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113438 Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:40:08 +0000 (UTC), message by Rupert Pigott : > "Steve Taylor" wrote in message > news:3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au... > > Jim Balter wrote: > > > > > I've seen programmers and science fiction writers doing amazingly > > > stupid things in other contexts. > > > > My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin > > accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her > > television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. > > Some people would do that for fun or spite. :) Hey, I spilled beer into my Leslie cabinet *twice*. The first time, I panicked, switched everything off and tried again after a silly two minutes (approx.). Miracle of miracles -- it still worked! The second time I didn't even bother switching the beast off, I just wiped the grilles and let the beer find its way into the horn driver. Amazingly, the cab never sounded better. mawa -- Rudel: Wolfgang ###### Message-ID: <3D4EF951.30701@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4DB5A6.7060508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208050453.f33de5c@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:19:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028585947 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:19:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:19:07 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113445 On 8/5/02 5:53 AM, David Tate wrote: > Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4DB5A6.7060508@exodus.nospam>... ... >>Then things have changed since I was there. But these >>railings presumably result in fewer people, especially >>children, falling in. This is easily explained in terms >>other than litigation. The person who posted about >>Iceland commented that there were no impediments to >>self-destruction -- a complaint about such impediments >>where there are many many visitors, including families >>with small children, verges on the sociopathic. > > > Um, where did you see a 'complaint' about any of this? The thread context was > > > > I believe that we should work harder to get *people* to > > > > think. I heard a comedian say once that he thought the > > > > little tags on hair dryers that say "DO NOT USE WHILE > > > > SHOWERING" should be removed. His reasoning was: If you are stupid enough to use the hair dryer in the > > > > shower, then the world would be better off without you. > > > Seems to be the attitude everywhere else in the world except the litigious US. > > You don't seem to know anything about what the attitudes are in other parts of the world. > I don't know; his sweeping generalization seems pretty accurate to me, from what I've seen. > My favorite example is from Iceland, [...] -- ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:26:19 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <68omia.bav1.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-Trace: betanews.demon.co.uk 1028586603 2947 193.237.4.110 (5 Aug 2002 22:30:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:30:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!betanews.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113468 According to Jeanette : > You could be right. When I was a student, I lived in a house that had about > half a dozen 'dead' TV's stored in the cellar. Inevitably, one day, we > dragged one upstairs and lobbed stones at it just to see whether the CRT > would implode as spectacularly as we had heard it would. Well, it wasn't > quite as good as we hoped, but we were reasonably impressed by it. That's > when I started to notice a difference between female scientists and male > scientists. Although both sexes were equally keen to see what happened, I > noticed that the boys lobbed the stones, and the girls made a note of where > the first aid kit was, then stood well back and observed the results :-) Sounds reasonable. I recall a similar experience when I was at school, back at a time when owning live ammunition was still legal in the UK (shows how long ago that was!) The boys threw bricks at it to observe close-up what happened, the girls stood some distance off to observe any potential for injury! Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc http://www.paunix.org SDF Public Access UNIX: UNIX accounts and webspace! ###### Message-ID: <3D4EFD13.4DFEDDD6@ozemail.com.au> From: Steve Taylor X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> <68omia.bav1.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:30:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.51.154.82 X-Complaints-To: news@bigpond.net.au X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1028586611 203.51.154.82 (Tue, 06 Aug 2002 08:30:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 08:30:11 EST Organization: BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!news-server.bigpond.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113467 Chris Hedley wrote: >>> My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin >>> accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her >>> television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. >> Some people would do that for fun or spite. :) > In the case of a sysadmin the general line of thought would tend to > be "I've heard that something Really Bad happens if I do this but I > haven't seen it firsthand, so here's a great opportunity to see for > myself." Probably more or less the same thing that drives anybody > of a technical persuasion, scientists in particular I'd guess. Nice theory, but you're giving my friend much too much credit. Much. > Chris. Steve ###### Message-ID: <3D4EFC35.8080509@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040853.1535d477@posting.google.com> <3D4DA306.8020900@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208050524.6729a815@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 117 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:31:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028586686 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:31:26 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:31:26 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113457 On 8/5/02 6:24 AM, David Tate wrote: > Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4DA306.8020900@exodus.nospam>... > >>On 8/4/02 9:53 AM, David Tate wrote: >> >>>Jim Balter wrote in message news:<3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam>... >>> >>> >>>>Let me waste some cycles on a clarification: >>> >>> >>>[Snipped: Pretty good taxonomy of views on whether machines can, or >>>might someday, think.] >>> >>>There are also some of us who honestly don't know whether machines >>>will ever be able to think in the manner that humans do (i.e. >>>consciously), because nobody has yet figured out the mechanisms by >>>which conscious thought arises. Depending on how that investigation >>>turns out, I could imagine it becoming commonplace to build sentient >>>conscious machines, or everyone agreeing that it's hopeless to even >>>try. >> >>But that appears to be a pragmatic objection, rather than a >>theoretical objection. > > > Correct. I believe that we are as yet too ignorant of what is > possible to be able to speculate usefully. > > [...] > > >>I think one of the traps is in >>thinking that, because we can apply a single word to >>something, like "consciousness" or "mind", that therefore >>we're really talking about a single thing. > > > I agree -- there is a world of difference between being able to > explain (say) belief formation in a behaviorist sense, versus being > able to explain subjective mental states, in a reductionist way. It > would not surprise me if we figure out a mechanism for the former long > before we acquire clue #1 about the latter. > > [...] > >>But the mind is what the brain does, *whatever* that is, > > > This is one possible axiom, and a metaphysical one at that. A > religious belief, if you will. Physicalism is an application of Ockham's Razor -- quite unlike a religious belief. > Until we have some notion of *how* > things like mental states and subjective experiences could arise from > brain states, it remains a tenet of faith in strong AI that we *will* > figure that out, I made no claim that we will figure anything out. You've just contradicted yourself, as a metaphysical axiom could not imply something so pragmatic (although it could imply the converse -- that we could never figure something out, because it would be impossible). > and a tenet of various other faiths that we won't. > Until then, it's circular to argue (as I have seen some people argue) > that the mind is whatever the brain does because materialism is true, Materialism is simply an application of Ockham. > and that materialism is established by the fact that our meat brains > are enough to generate minds. I've never seem that claim -- it looks like a strawman. > This, however, is not the newsgroup for discussing whose faith is > justified. "this", from where I sit, is comp.ai.philosophy, and is indeed a newsgroup for discussing such things. > (And it's a neat feature of Bisson's story that it tends to produce > discussions like this one...) > > Cheers, > David Tate > > PS -- I agree that Searle's stated position is silly, if he is really > saying that meat minds have causal properties that couldn't arise in > mechanical minds. That's what he is often taken as saying, but is not *quite* what he's saying. He's saying that those causal properties cannot be by virtue of executing a program, alone. Whatever meat minds are or how they work, there's something there beyond computation -- that's Searle's claim. He also professes to be a physicalist, so what's missing, by his lights, is not a soul or somesuch. > Hardware or wetware, the laws of physics are what > they are. The only available alternative to "minds are brains are > machines" is "minds require something else in addition to material > causation", Searle seems to think that those aren't the only alternatives, but he's rather unclear as to what these non-algorithmic yet material causal properties might be. > which sends you immediately off into Cartesian Dualism > land, like it or not... I agree, but Searle vehemently denies that he's a dualist. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4EFE6E.9030904@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> <3D4EBDFB.E7C95125@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:40:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028587256 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:40:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:40:56 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113458 On 8/5/02 11:03 AM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>You cared enough to claim that I had an agenda, jackass. > > > Because you do. You're here to bitch about the United States, even > though that is off-topi cof revery single newsgroup that you're > crossposting to. Wake up. The point was that you cared, and then lied that you didn't. You weren't concerned about whether Yellowstone or Iceland or litigation or any of the other topics people were discussing were off topic, only that I "bitched about the United States". So we both have agendas -- at least I'm honest about mine. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4F000F.2080900@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam> <3D4E18AE.4060101@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 104 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:47:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028587673 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:47:53 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:47:53 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113452 On 8/5/02 2:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <3D4E18AE.4060101@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > >>On 8/4/02 7:25 PM, J. Clarke wrote: >> >>>In article <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... >>> >>> >>>>On 8/4/02 2:49 PM, Pete Fenelon wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>In alt.folklore.computers Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>As a guess, I'd say it means the ability to determine cause and effect, >>>>>>i.e. to be able to predict the consequences of one's actions and act >>>>>>accordingly. If so, then most people in North America (not to mention >>>>>>our society in general) not only lack the ability to think, but take >>>>>>pride in that lack of ability. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I'm increasingly reminded of Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons" - the >>>>>dumb breed earlier and more often than the intelligent, so there's >>>>>more and more and more of them... >>>> >>>>This assumes an inheritability of intelligence beyond the level >>>>supported by the facts. Even to the degree that intelligence >>>>is inherited, who breeds and when is only partially correlated >>>>with intelligence; it's much more strongly correlated with >>>>wealth and social status. >>> >>> >>>Yebbut in industrialized societies the correlation is negative--those >>>with wealth and social status tend to have small families. >> >>Right; that's obviously what I meant -- well, obvious to >>someone who isn't dumb. >> >> >>>And if >>>they're so dumb howcum they're rich? >> >>Since correlation between wealth and intelligence >>hasn't been mentioned, that question is >>a non sequitur / dumb. > > > Hasn't anybody ever told you that there are no dumb questions, only dumb > answers? I've heard it, but it's dumb, especially in this context. >>Wealth and social status >>correlate with education, which correlates with >>small family size. > > > Do they now? I'd like to see the correlation. I know more wealthy > high-school dropouts than wealthy PhDs, and Bill Gates never finished > college. Those are anecdotes. If you want to see the correlation, go do some research. > Education tends to be the result of wealth and social status, Which means there's not only correlation but cause. Sheesh. > as the second generation is forced kicking and screaming to get an > education, it does not seem to be causal. > > >>As for how *some* dumb people >>might become rich, just look and George W. Bush >>and Dan Quayle. > > > Don't try to make this a political debate. It was already "political" in a non-narrow sense. I just provided some obvious and familiar examples. GWB and Dan Quayle are widely recognized as rich and not unusually bright. Their wealth came from family, directly and via connections and influence. >>>>Part of the problem here is >>>>the way we confuse intelligence with knowledge -- does >>>>dumb mean "has a low g factor" or "didn't get much >>>>education"? >>>> >>>>Of course, these issues are not of any concern to the >>>>dumb among us, especially the dumb ones who think >>>>of themselves otherwise. >>> >> > -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4F005E.6090501@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:49:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028587751 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:49:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:49:11 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113455 On 8/5/02 2:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > >>On 8/5/02 1:04 AM, Erik Max Francis wrote: >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now >>>>responded to my politically incorrect comments ... >>>>with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates >>>>something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. >>>>Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. >>> >>> >>>Either that, or we couldn't care less about what you're saying, and >>>rather would like you to find a more topical newsgroup in which to say >>>it. >> >>You cared enough to claim that I had an agenda, jackass. >>This thread is about thinking with meat -- I'm able to do that >>well enough to know that your alternative is not correct. > > > You would certainly know about thinking with meat. > >>My comments were in response to related comments that were >>not treated the same way. It's the position I took that >>caused your response, so stop being such an intellectual >>coward and simply admit it. And as for the other two, >>plonking is a far stronger response than one would >>expect simply for something off topic. Only a very >>stupid person would buy your line. If you didn't >>want to see these comments in thse newsgroups, >>you would simply stop responding. > > > As a flame warrior, you rank about on a par with a block of dry ice. > > As for plonking you, personally, I have ADHD--it is very difficult for > me to resist responding to such easy victims. Hence I plonk you so that > I can get some work done. > > Just another intellectual coward. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D4F00A1.40209@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D4E0427.ACDED87E@alcyone.com> <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:50:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028587819 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:50:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:50:19 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113444 On 8/5/02 2:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article <3D4E1E78.6000300@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > >>On 8/4/02 9:50 PM, Erik Max Francis wrote: >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>>>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. ... >>> >>> >>>You seem to be lost. >> >>I got to where you led with your comment about >>my agenda, you fucking hypocrite. The thread is >>about thinking with your meat, something that >>you've failed to demonstrate an aptitude for. > > > Perhaps you're not aware that "meat" in the US can be a euphemism for > certain portions of the male anatomy. I'll leave the interpretation of > "thinking with your meat" to the reader as an exercise. But it doesn't apply in this context. I won't even credit this with "nice try". -- ###### From: Erik Max Francis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:52:17 -0700 Organization: Alcyone Systems Message-ID: <3D4F01A1.28ADCD34@alcyone.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> <3D4EBDFB.E7C95125@alcyone.com> <3D4EFE6E.9030904@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113443 Jim Balter wrote: > The point was that you cared, and then lied that you didn't. I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously if you think suggesting that you're behaving like an ass qualifies as "caring." However, whatever you prefer. You're really doing a great job of selling yourself, here. -- Erik Max Francis / max@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE / \ See the son in your bad day / Smell the flowers in the valley \__/ Chante Moore Bosskey.net: Aliens vs. Predator 2 / http://www.bosskey.net/avp2/ A personal guide to Aliens vs. Predator 2. ###### Message-ID: <3D4F0241.2090105@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3d4e0161$0$1422$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> <3D4EBDFB.E7C95125@alcyone.com> <3D4EFE6E.9030904@exodus.nospam> <3D4F01A1.28ADCD34@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:57:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028588236 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:57:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 18:57:16 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113449 On 8/5/02 3:52 PM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>The point was that you cared, and then lied that you didn't. > > > I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously if you think > suggesting that you're behaving like an ass qualifies as "caring." The ass here is the one who attacked me as having an agenda, then switched ploys to claiming I was "lost", then denied being a hypocrite. > However, whatever you prefer. You're really doing a great job of > selling yourself, here. That's not my goal. I trust that the non-idiots reading this stuff can sort things out for themselves, while the idiots flame me and plonk me at the same time. -- ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:24:28 +0100 Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <901.981T2407T6125752@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D4DAE87.2040201@exodus.nospam> <3D4E18AE.4060101@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-2000.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 1028589524 11220 217.134.23.208 (5 Aug 2002 23:18:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Aug 2002 23:18:44 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113525 "J. Clarke" wrote in message news:aimrom4e9v@enews4.newsguy.com... [SNIP] > Do they now? I'd like to see the correlation. I know more wealthy > high-school dropouts than wealthy PhDs, and Bill Gates never finished > college. Education tends to be the result of wealth and social status, > as the second generation is forced kicking and screaming to get an > education, it does not seem to be causal. You might also want to note that a lot of these successful drop-outs had a considerable amount of fiscal backing from their family. I've seen figures as high as $250,000 bandied around for MS's starting capital, courtesy of parents. Whether that is actually true is another question. I'm fairly sure I could do something useful with $250,000 (1970s money too). OTOH it's much harder to genuinely start from scratch, very few have. I think Cray would qualify as "starting from scratch". Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3D4F1330.4050803@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam> <3D4E31A8.42F2AF7@alcyone.com> <3D4E4BF4.6070802@exodus.nospam> <3D4EBDFB.E7C95125@alcyone.com> <3D4EFE6E.9030904@exodus.nospam> <3D4F01A1.28ADCD34@alcyone.com> <592.982T1766T9774899@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 00:09:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028592571 68.6.38.179 (Mon, 05 Aug 2002 20:09:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 20:09:31 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113450 On 8/5/02 5:17 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article <3D4F01A1.28ADCD34@alcyone.com> max@alcyone.com > (Erik Max Francis) writes: > > >>Jim Balter wrote: >> >> >>>The point was that you cared, and then lied that you didn't. >> >>I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously if you think >>suggesting that you're behaving like an ass qualifies as "caring." >>However, whatever you prefer. You're really doing a great job of >>selling yourself, here. > > > Please don't feed the trolls. The troll here is EMF, who took a discussion about mass foolishness off topic by making a snide remark about my agenda. Since it was a personal attack, I took the bait. -- ###### From: phil@notsaying.demon.co.uk (dawks) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 00:15:34 GMT Message-ID: <3d4f1360.1573852520@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4E686D.1080405@exodus.nospam> <3D4E7067.C44907FA@ozemail.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: dawks.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: dawks.demon.co.uk:194.222.153.217 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1028592831 nnrp-01:23722 NO-IDENT dawks.demon.co.uk:194.222.153.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!dawks.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113488 On Mon, 05 Aug 2002 12:30:00 GMT, Steve Taylor wrote: >Jim Balter wrote: > >> I've seen programmers and science fiction writers doing amazingly >> stupid things in other contexts. > >My friend the well trained, well paid and intelligent sysadmin >accidentally knocked a vase of flowers over, pouring water into her >television. Then she turned it on to see if it still worked. Are you sure she isn't a programmer? phil. phil. -- The world is divided into two sorts of people: those that believe that the world is divided into two sorts of people and those that don't. ###### From: Tony Hursh Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 23:12:46 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3D4F4CBE.3030106@acm.org> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-277.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.2.1) Gecko/20010901 X-Accept-Language: en-us Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113548 Dowe Keller wrote: > I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to > put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. Back in my days as a photo lab rat I processed a nice shot of a woman of the blue-haired persuasion hand-feeding slices of bread to a black bear, while hubby operated the camera. When the picked up their photos I suggested that they might want to rethink the wisdom of such activities. His response: "Oh, it's all right. I had a pistol." "Sooo.... you can kill the bear (maybe, if you're lucky) *after* it's taken off a few of your wife's limbs. Does this perhaps seem a bit suboptimal to you?" -- Tony Hursh The Blinking 12:00, http://blinking12.blogspot.com ###### From: Mark_Reichert@hotmail.com (Mark Reichert) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 5 Aug 2002 21:17:40 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: <99e65015.0208052017.6008bf52@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <99e65015.0208040934.1147f61f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.192.142.134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028607460 11268 127.0.0.1 (6 Aug 2002 04:17:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2002 04:17:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113544 J. Clarke wrote in message news:... > Whether animals think depends on how you define "think" IMO. A certain > amount of animal behavior is learned, not instinctive, and for it to be > learned somewhere along the line some critter had to figure out the > behavior and then figure out how to teach it. From what I've seen, apes and monkeys teach by example, engaging in tool use or other behavior in front of the young, after which the young try to copy them. I got goose pimples when I firsted watched that one macaque in Japan rinsing the potatoes in a tidal pool or throwing rice in so the sand attached sank and she skimmed the floating rice. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> From: Dowe Keller Date: 05 Aug 2002 23:09:34 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.238 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1028611435 206.169.219.238 (5 Aug 2002 22:23:55 -0700) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113483 "Paul F. Dietz" writes: > I did see tourists doing amazingly stupid things with the wildlife, > though, like surrounding some elk for photos. At least they > were treating the bison with more respect. Must have been the videos > they had at the visitors center showing idiots being gored. They weren't treating the Bison (for those who haven't seen these beasts, they are magnificently huge creatures who could crush a human as easily as crumpling a candy bar wrapper) with mutch respect. I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know that wild animals can be a bit untame at times. -- dowe@sierratel.com The package said "requires Microsoft Windows 95 or better" - I don't understand why it doesn't work on my pocket calculator! ###### Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:26:02 -0400 From: Kristopher Reply-To: eoslives@net-link.net Organization: The NoWhere Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3d4fdc8c$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 4ea5aa68.news.net-link.net X-Trace: DXC=GN=:`[CCP9E0XCX3:8FMJDbhiU1EQ[HIMhnlL[O6<90OdL>1RDRl;?O?fAlhV@jZcElBFDaL\d^nE[oE7jWb6JHA X-Complaints-To: abuse@net-link.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer1.atl.newshosting.com!newspump.sol.net!posts0.nwblwi.newsops.execpc.com!posts.news.net-link.net!reader3-nwblwi.news.net-link.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113540 Dowe Keller wrote: > > "Paul F. Dietz" writes: > >> I did see tourists doing amazingly stupid things with the >> wildlife, though, like surrounding some elk for photos. >> At least they were treating the bison with more respect. >> Must have been the videos they had at the visitors center >> showing idiots being gored. > > They weren't treating the Bison (for those who haven't seen > these beasts, they are magnificently huge creatures who > could crush a human as easily as crumpling a candy bar > wrapper) with mutch respect. I heard > tell of a parent who actually tried to put his child on the > back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. > > I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know > that wild animals can be a bit untame at times. Because there are a lot of people who are never exposed to nature as a dangerous thing. They live in the city or the burbs, and all the animals they see are too small to be dangerous, or pets, or behind bars in a zoo maybe, and they lack the imagination to see animals as dangerous, and they lack the curiousity and/or attention span to sit down and watch more than 5 minutes of something without sex or bombs. -- Kristopher "I'll never trust myself again, but I don't care... Just set that plastic world on fire, and watch it melt." Monster Magnet -- "Melt" ###### From: eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 6 Aug 2002 15:17:30 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hortensia.etek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 1028647050 26325 129.16.32.92 (6 Aug 2002 15:17:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Aug 2002 15:17:30 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.net.uni-c.dk!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113533 Dowe Keller wrote: > > I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to >put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. > >I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know that >wild animals can be a bit untame at times. Darwin at work... /Andreas ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:47:03 -0500 Organization: TychoTown Tycho Crater Ice Cream Parlour Message-ID: Distribution: world Reply-To: blue7green@cheesenocrosswinds.net References: <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4F4CBE.3030106@acm.org> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news-x2.support.nl!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113557 Tony Hursh wrote: ] "Sooo.... you can kill the bear (maybe, if you're lucky) ] *after* it's taken off a few of your wife's limbs. Does ] this perhaps seem a bit suboptimal to you?" Years ago I chated with someone who had been a Park ranger. hesaid that folks would declare that since it was a park, the animals were tame. Defiately Darwin in action. I grew up in town, but I know better than to pet a bear. JimP. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 08 Aug 02 11:56:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbylnhYgcu3PkKxLWfszlabeLxdFAGm3GIb+FHlU2yoFvKS4R+3AaQC X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2002 13:03:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-55 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113868 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message >news:lYq49.38565$sA3.11788@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... > >[SNIP] > >> See my other post, there are many complexities. The short >> answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" >> even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no >> question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels >> (i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of >> oil wells, etc.) > >You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >sonny, it's very thin. :) > >I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >reduced consumption of such fuels. > >On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >friendship. > >My personal feeling is that the US.Gov is doing it's citizens >a grave dis-service at present. The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop so that those third world economies get through their high pollution phase quickly. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 09 Aug 02 11:43:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3d4fdc8c$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVazdxAdqurHQJuPrLvpr2Jp42g55ioMy1/kZl74LrB30T8q0jSo2EOA X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2002 12:50:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-182 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113822 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: >lawrence@c896388-c.attbi.com (Lawrence Statton N1GAK/XE2) writes: >> [1] Wild Kingdom was a terrific nature television program, with the >> host and his team of helicopter piloting eco-commandos whizzing off to >> Africa, or Alaska, or other equally exotic places, whereupon they >> would shoot various large animals with tranquilizer darts for the >> purpose of relocating them, or studying them, or whatever. I always >> assumed they just really got off on shooting things with darts. > >I believe that you are probably right, as I haven't seen any of the >newer wildlife shows with the same volume of shoot the wilderbeast >themed episodes. BTW, what was the host's name again? > Marlin Perkins and Jim...somebody. Those shows are nothing compared to the stuff put out by David Attenborough. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 09 Aug 02 12:59:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbT02KUVva40bIuMhXK46PwQqZuTEWaefi4okHLtQs0UsNFDdPhh6pM X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2002 14:06:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-182 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113827 In article , Adam Canning wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> >"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message >> >news:lYq49.38565$sA3.11788@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... >> > >> >[SNIP] >> > >> >> See my other post, there are many complexities. The short >> >> answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" >> >> even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no >> >> question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels >> >> (i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of >> >> oil wells, etc.) >> > >> >You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >> >sonny, it's very thin. :) >> > >> >I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >> >seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >> >know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >> >reduced consumption of such fuels. >> > >> >On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >> >with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >> >front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >> >or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >> >purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >> >US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >> >sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >> >friendship. >> > >> >My personal feeling is that the US.Gov is doing it's citizens >> >a grave dis-service at present. >> >> The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third >> world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so >> much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop >> so that those third world economies get through their high >> pollution phase quickly. > >The only counties the Kyoto acord said could produce more pollution were >Australia, Iceland and Norway. That is based on the accord's flavor of calculations. > ..And that was because they had already >overshot the amount of reduction they needed to do. > >Of course if you count them as third world, there is little hope for a >rational understanding of geopolitics from you. WEre you determined to misread what I was talking about or did I really mess up the meaning? I was not talking about politics; I was talking about slavery (a.k.a. welfare). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 09 Aug 02 10:16:11 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <823.986T565T6163598@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-255.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!blackbush.xlink.net!blackbush.de.kpnqwest.net!news.tiscali.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113972 In article taustin@hyperbooks.com (Terry Austin) writes: >Anybody who posts to Usenet with a name like "Pigott" - even if >it's his real name - is, by defintion, an idiot. You know, Jim Balter's style might be somewhat abrasive, but at least he has intelligent things to say. You, on the other hand, are merely abrasive. I don't know whether insulting people is the only way you can find some sense of self-worth, or you really think that this is the way to bring others to The Light. But either way, your postings remain content-free. And your above quote goes way over the line. So long, you pathetic little man. *plonk* -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 10 Aug 02 11:11:53 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3d4fdc8c$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa260FnP/AzeVQGP1jSMM61pXcMF0WCUm0zKOpnDx7llJywApl2lw/i X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2002 12:19:25 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113783 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> Marlin Perkins and Jim...somebody. > >Yes, That's them. > >> Those shows are nothing compared to the stuff put out by >> David Attenborough. > >I like Attenborough's nature documentaries, particular the >_Life_on_Earth_ series, he doesn't generally run animals down and >subject them to dartings, manhandling or other such like things. He talks about science and leaves the macho pieces out. >IMHO, while there are nature shows out there that are as good, or >better than _Wild_Kingdom_, there aren't any that are very similar to >it. There's some Australian guy who keeps showing up on the TV alot that simulates _Wild Kingdom_. He does really stupid things that didn't get shown on the WK show. I wouldn't mind the idiocy if he had some science content. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 10 Aug 02 11:18:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 107 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa6qbo9D5KprIoUbC6b6fD+bBeyEFp5tA0KYIdUu42miFFMQwLiKR4T X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2002 12:25:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!opentransit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113765 In article , Adam Canning wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> In article , >> Adam Canning wrote: >> >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... >> >> In article , >> >> "Rupert Pigott" >> wrote: >> >> >"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message >> >> >news:lYq49.38565$sA3.11788@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... >> >> > >> >> >[SNIP] >> >> > >> >> >> See my other post, there are many complexities. The short >> >> >> answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" >> >> >> even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no >> >> >> question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels >> >> >> (i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of >> >> >> oil wells, etc.) >> >> > >> >> >You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >> >> >sonny, it's very thin. :) >> >> > >> >> >I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >> >> >seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >> >> >know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >> >> >reduced consumption of such fuels. >> >> > >> >> >On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >> >> >with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >> >> >front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >> >> >or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >> >> >purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >> >> >US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >> >> >sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >> >> >friendship. >> >> > >> >> >My personal feeling is that the US.Gov is doing it's citizens >> >> >a grave dis-service at present. >> >> >> >> The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third >> >> world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so >> >> much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop >> >> so that those third world economies get through their high >> >> pollution phase quickly. >> > >> >The only counties the Kyoto acord said could produce more pollution were >> >Australia, Iceland and Norway. >> >> That is based on the accord's flavor of calculations. > >Which the American delegates helped write. So? I don't recall saying anywhere that we have the corner of the intelligent market. > ...The ones where they said they >could hit 93% [because managing to reach the same levels of reduction as >the EU and Warsaw Pact was politically unacceptable.]. The treaty also >commits [and my understanding is this is also a US sticking point] the >signatories to do all they can to ensure a similar global agreement. IOW, fund everybody else. > >Going through the entire process of negotiating an International rtreaty >and then walking off and saying its too expensive so we shan't isn't a >way to make friends. Especially when the main reason given is ur >Industries are used to wrecking the enviroment and cna't compete with the >rest of the civilised world if asked to cut back. Example, please? > >> > ..And that was because they had already >> >overshot the amount of reduction they needed to do. >> > >> >Of course if you count them as third world, there is little hope for a >> >rational understanding of geopolitics from you. >> >> WEre you determined to misread what I was talking about or did >> I really mess up the meaning? I was not talking about politics; >> I was talking about slavery (a.k.a. welfare). > >International Trade is politics. OK. So we have a treaty written by politicians stating goals that have little basis on science, industry, or technology. > .. Slavery is not also known as welfare. Think about it. It is not the welfare recipients who are the slaves; they are the slave owners. > >You appeared to be arguing that the US should pollute more. Not at all. > ..When its >already responsible for a large fraction of the worlds pollution already. > Oh, really? How do you measure this? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 10 Aug 02 11:22:51 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb22Z34LyzXnkzRc10bwr2J1I8f6hiAYmzw3/ZFrln0UJp0BGkRJuux X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2002 12:30:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113749 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >"Paul Austin" wrote in message >news:oXR49.22115$Z7.2307553@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com... >Measuring everything by money seems to be a common error, and one >which does not guarantee correct or meaningful answers. Hint: He's not talking about money when he's talking about GNP. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 10 Aug 02 11:24:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbxEMvSSRnFL5CX52gJusutiR81zNOrSJzUG4p0nKDhY9KPUp8kqmqE X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2002 12:32:11 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-53 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113763 In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Terry Austin : > ... more abrasive drivel ... > >Sigh, not another one. *plonk* > >Chris. Sorry. Some days I try to fix idiocy despite my 100% failure rate. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 10 Aug 02 13:35:12 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <1fgmayz.1mjye3d17ovybeN%proto@panix.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYGo+OwUmbL79cIbpc7qTyMC3o9evXRGmMwmz2WJKi6gvhEUQuElG8o X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2002 14:42:43 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-235-224 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113793 In article , greymaus wrote: >In article <1fgmayz.1mjye3d17ovybeN%proto@panix.com>, Walter Bushell wrote: >> Andreas Långström wrote: >> >>> Dowe Keller wrote: >>> > >>> > I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to >>> >put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. >>> > >>> >I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know that >>> >wild animals can be a bit untame at times. >>> >>> Darwin at work... >> >> Speaking of which there was a man killed last week in ÑYC by lightning, >> dancing on top of a building during a thunderstorm. >>> >>> /Andreas >> >> > >Singin' in the Rain? > Nah, sparking. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:08:36 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1028702943 mail2news:16030 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114171 In article <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> dtate@ida.org "David Tate" writes: > My favorite example is from Iceland, where my wife and I took our > honeymoon. We visited the site of some famous mudpots, where > superheated water bubbles to the surface and turns the volcanic ash > soil to slurry, surrounded by a thin crust of deposited salts and > such. There was a large sign in several languages stating that the > mudpots were very dangerous, and that a number of people had fallen > through the crust and been very badly injured. The sign advised > visitors to stay on the brown parts of the path, since they were the > safest. There were, however, no railings, fences, barriers, or other > impediments to self-destruction -- a situation that would be totally > unthinkable in the US. Same thing at The Tombs of the Kings (neolithic rock-cut chambers which were both living space and a necropolis) at Nea Paphos in Cyprus. Lots of one-sided stone staircases, many of them 5,000 years old with irregular steps, etc). No handrails, nothing to stop people plummeting off the side (or, for that matter, falling in through the hole on the roof). I've spent many an hour wandering around there, and recall once hearing an American tourist whining to their tour guide that there ought to be safety rails, signs, etc. The guide's reaction (I speak enough Greek, but the tourist didn't) was to the effect that "if you're stupid enough to fall into a large hole in the ground that is patently obvious to anyone who is not blind, then you're no loss to the human race". A viewpoint with which I wholeheartedly concur: just what fuckwitted judge was it that found against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### Message-ID: <3D507542.5010600@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 17 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 01:20:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028683222 68.6.38.179 (Tue, 06 Aug 2002 21:20:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 21:20:22 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113650 On 8/6/02 8:17 AM, Andreas L=E5ngstr=F6m wrote: > Dowe Keller wrote: >=20 >> I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to >>put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. >> >>I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know that >>wild animals can be a bit untame at times. >=20 >=20 > Darwin at work... More like Lamarck - which doesn't work. --=20 ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:35:57 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-007.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113891 In article , eal@etek.chalmers.se says... > Dowe Keller wrote: > > > > I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to > >put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. > > > >I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know that > >wild animals can be a bit untame at times. > > Darwin at work... Ditto for the folks who keep lions, tigers, leopards, pumas, etc as house pets. Every once in a while one of them turns out to be a huge affectionate kitty-cat who is good with kids and guaranteed to turn any burglar's pants brown. Most figure out after a while that humans are crunchy and good with ketchup. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4F4CBE.3030106@acm.org> From: Dowe Keller Date: 06 Aug 2002 21:59:32 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.79 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.79 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1028693583 206.169.219.79 (6 Aug 2002 21:13:03 -0700) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113879 Tony Hursh writes: > Back in my days as a photo lab rat I processed a nice shot of > a woman of the blue-haired persuasion hand-feeding slices of > bread to a black bear, while hubby operated the camera. When > the picked up their photos I suggested that they might want > to rethink the wisdom of such activities. His response: > "Oh, it's all right. I had a pistol." > > "Sooo.... you can kill the bear (maybe, if you're lucky) > *after* it's taken off a few of your wife's limbs. Does > this perhaps seem a bit suboptimal to you?" Maybe his wife wasn't that nice a lady, and maybe she had really good life insurance. Sometimes, accidents have to be staged ;-). -- dowe@sierratel.com Truly simple systems... require infinite testing. -- Norman Augustine ###### From: "Christopher M. Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.229.240.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1028698395 12.229.240.155 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 05:33:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 05:33:15 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 05:33:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113627 "Jim Balter" wrote: > My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when > lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. > Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a > upper middle class white male living in a country that > has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the > world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the > short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. A very telling statement revealing your biases. It is a common saw but it is vastly misleading. From the statement you might think that the US was "hogging" more than its "fair share" of world resources, but nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality the "resources" are not resources at all, but products. Things such as produced iron ore, electricity, food, etc. These are not, as one might otherwise presume, non-renewable, limited supply items. For example, the US consumes quite a lot of food per capita, it also produces quite a lot of food per capita, more than it uses in fact. The same is true for essentially all other "resources" of the world. -- There is no Cabal. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:21:52 +0100 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3997.bear.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1028700969 15529 217.134.47.157 (7 Aug 2002 06:16:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 2002 06:16:09 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113936 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message news:vi249.19992$UU1.4781@sccrnsc03... > "Jim Balter" wrote: > > My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when > > lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. > > Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a > > upper middle class white male living in a country that > > has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the > > world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the > > short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. > > A very telling statement revealing your biases. It is > a common saw but it is vastly misleading. From the > statement you might think that the US was "hogging" > more than its "fair share" of world resources, but > nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality > the "resources" are not resources at all, but products. [SNIP] Hmmm ... does that include fossil fuels ... ? If America was self-sufficient in terms of oil production there would be less need to try and keep the arabs sweet. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3D50C246.7000205@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4F4CBE.3030106@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:48:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028702938 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 02:48:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 02:48:58 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113656 On 8/6/02 9:59 PM, Dowe Keller wrote: > Tony Hursh writes: > > >>Back in my days as a photo lab rat I processed a nice shot of >>a woman of the blue-haired persuasion hand-feeding slices of >>bread to a black bear, while hubby operated the camera. When >>the picked up their photos I suggested that they might want >>to rethink the wisdom of such activities. His response: >>"Oh, it's all right. I had a pistol." >> >>"Sooo.... you can kill the bear (maybe, if you're lucky) >>*after* it's taken off a few of your wife's limbs. Does >>this perhaps seem a bit suboptimal to you?" > > > Maybe his wife wasn't that nice a lady, and maybe she had really good > life insurance. Sometimes, accidents have to be staged ;-). This reminds me of a story by T. C. Boyle of a "staged" safari. Quoting the publisher, ``In "Big Game," the wild animal safari takes place not in Africa but on a pay-per-shoot ranch in Southern California and includes an elephant hunt and its vivid consequences.'' -- ###### Message-ID: <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:54:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028703287 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 02:54:47 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 02:54:47 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113703 On 8/6/02 10:33 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Jim Balter" wrote: > >>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. >>Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a >>upper middle class white male living in a country that >>has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the >>world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the >>short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. > > > A very telling statement revealing your biases. It is > a common saw but it is vastly misleading. From the > statement you might think that the US was "hogging" > more than its "fair share" of world resources, but > nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality > the "resources" are not resources at all, but products. > Things such as produced iron ore, electricity, food, > etc. These are not, as one might otherwise presume, > non-renewable, limited supply items. For example, the > US consumes quite a lot of food per capita, it also > produces quite a lot of food per capita, more than it > uses in fact. The same is true for essentially all > other "resources" of the world. Considering that the U.S. is the sole superpower and its military budget is greater than the sum of the next 25 nations combined, it would be quite surprising, from an objective realpolitik POV, if its power and wealth were not used to its benefit. The flow of oil alone bears this out. So not only do we see your biases clearly here, but we are led back to science fiction. Well done. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D50CB9D.5080401@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:28:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028705330 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:28:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 03:28:50 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113731 On 8/6/02 11:21 PM, Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message > news:vi249.19992$UU1.4781@sccrnsc03... > >>"Jim Balter" wrote: >> >>>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. >>>Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a >>>upper middle class white male living in a country that >>>has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the >>>world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the >>>short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. >> >>A very telling statement revealing your biases. It is >>a common saw but it is vastly misleading. From the >>statement you might think that the US was "hogging" >>more than its "fair share" of world resources, but >>nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality >>the "resources" are not resources at all, but products. > > > [SNIP] > > Hmmm ... does that include fossil fuels ... ? > > If America was self-sufficient in terms of oil production > there would be less need to try and keep the arabs sweet. It would have to reduce consumption considerably -- something not currently on the agenda. FYI: http://maps.unomaha.edu/Peterson/funda/Notes/Notes_Exam1/ResourceCons.html gives oil production and consumption by nation. What happens when oil demand exceeds supply and alternative production hasn't been put into place due to shortsighted pursuits would make for interesting science fiction if anyone were willing to tackle it. It's fascinating how many people are swept up in irrational nationalism and are unable to come to objective evaluations informed by history and social dynamics, the sort that might be made by an alien visiting our planet with no allegiances to any of our political or social groupings. "I don't understand, Glorg, why this 'ewe ess', despite being the richest and most powerful social grouping, uses all of its might altruisticly, as if it were a ethical sentient entity of the priest caste, rather than acting according to the private interests of its population in proportion to their relative power, like all other social groupings." "Oh dear, Frox, you've been spending way too much time watching their video transmissions." -- ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 7 Aug 2002 07:47:17 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1028706437 12382 134.117.136.30 (7 Aug 2002 07:47:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Aug 2002 07:47:17 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!newspump.sol.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114015 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} (bhk@dsl.co.uk) writes: > > Same thing at The Tombs of the Kings (neolithic rock-cut chambers which > were both living space and a necropolis) at Nea Paphos in Cyprus. ... Never been there, and never will. There seem to be too many other ways to get killed there than a simple tumble. ###### Message-ID: <3D50F2FB.60009@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:16:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028715410 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:16:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 06:16:50 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113644 On 8/6/02 1:08 PM, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > In article <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> > dtate@ida.org "David Tate" writes: > > >>My favorite example is from Iceland, where my wife and I took our >>honeymoon. We visited the site of some famous mudpots, where >>superheated water bubbles to the surface and turns the volcanic ash >>soil to slurry, surrounded by a thin crust of deposited salts and >>such. There was a large sign in several languages stating that the >>mudpots were very dangerous, and that a number of people had fallen >>through the crust and been very badly injured. The sign advised >>visitors to stay on the brown parts of the path, since they were the >>safest. There were, however, no railings, fences, barriers, or other >>impediments to self-destruction -- a situation that would be totally >>unthinkable in the US. > > > Same thing at The Tombs of the Kings (neolithic rock-cut chambers which > were both living space and a necropolis) at Nea Paphos in Cyprus. Lots > of one-sided stone staircases, many of them 5,000 years old with > irregular steps, etc). No handrails, nothing to stop people plummeting > off the side (or, for that matter, falling in through the hole on the > roof). I've spent many an hour wandering around there, and recall once > hearing an American tourist whining to their tour guide that there ought > to be safety rails, signs, etc. The guide's reaction (I speak enough > Greek, but the tourist didn't) was to the effect that "if you're stupid > enough to fall into a large hole in the ground that is patently obvious > to anyone who is not blind, then you're no loss to the human race". A > viewpoint with which I wholeheartedly concur: just what fuckwitted judge > was it that found against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? It's interesting that someone who puts others down for being dimwitted don't have the sense to know that this was a jury case, and that the outcomes of trials depend on evidence introduced into trial that often doesn't make it into the folklore, especially when that folklore is used as a whipping boy (or 79 year old woman, in this case) for certain ideologies. The coffee, which caused second and third degree burns when the woman spilled it on herself, was far too hot for consumption and would have burned her mouth and throat if she had tried to swallow it. McDonalds routinely heated their coffee much hotter than the competition because they were told by marketing that it improved the aroma and taste. McDonalds had in their files over 700 reports of customers burned by their coffee over a period of ten years, some with third degree burns like the plaintiff in the case. *That* reckless indifference is why the jury awarded the woman nearly $3M, which the "fuckwitted judge" reduced to $640K -- $620K more than McD would have had to pay had they agreed to woman's initial request for $20000 to cover her medical bills. When they brushed her off she hired a lawyer. Of course it's easy for people to sit in their armchairs and and rag on the judge, jury, plaintiff, or whoever about the foolishness of the lawsuit without knowing anything about it, just like so many others have done before them. In fact, it's so easy that it doesn't take any brains at all. -- ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 7 Aug 2002 15:31:16 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3D4F4CBE.3030106@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113813 In article , D.J. wrote: >Tony Hursh wrote: >] "Sooo.... you can kill the bear (maybe, if you're lucky) >] *after* it's taken off a few of your wife's limbs. Does >] this perhaps seem a bit suboptimal to you?" >Years ago I chated with someone who had been a Park ranger. hesaid >that folks would declare that since it was a park, the animals were >tame. Defiately Darwin in action. About 10 years ago, a friend of mine was the brewer at the Holy Cow brewpub in Las Vegas. He conducted a few tours a week himself. During one of these, after he explained the purpose of the various bits of equipment, a lady interrupted and said that she knew better, that she'd seen real beer equipment at Coors the week before, and that it was much bigger. "All right, lady. You caught me. Every morning, I come in early with cases of keystone light and fill the tanks." >I grew up in town, but I know better than to pet a bear. see the nice suit your presumptive heirs missed out on? hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 7 Aug 2002 15:34:13 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113855 In article , Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: >Brian {Hamilton Kelly} (bhk@dsl.co.uk) writes: >> Same thing at The Tombs of the Kings (neolithic rock-cut chambers which >> were both living space and a necropolis) at Nea Paphos in Cyprus. > Never been there, and never will. There seem to be too many other > ways to get killed there than a simple tumble. damn mummies . . . :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers From: davids@kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A55020103@exod Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:31:10 GMT Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!kithrup.com!davids Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113578 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: > > > I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to >put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. > Snopes is the UL encyclopedia, but it doesn't have that one. It does, however, have this one, which is possibly worse: http://www.snopes.com/critters/malice/bearmaul.htm There's also this: http://www.urbanlegends.com/animals/bear_attacks.html http://www.urbanlegends.com/animals/bear_eats_baby.html ###### From: "Mike Swaim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:32:09 -0500 Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users Lines: 18 Sender: swaim@hal-pc.org Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.240.116.4 X-Trace: news.hal-pc.org 1028737913 79932 65.240.116.4 (7 Aug 2002 16:31:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-pc.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:31:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.52.135.42!nntp1.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113831 "Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" wrote in message news:1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk... > A > viewpoint with which I wholeheartedly concur: just what fuckwitted judge > was it that found against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? The coffee was hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns. When you start getting letters from burn hospitals about your coffee, you might start thinking that you have a problem. -- Mike Swaim Michael.Swaim@ubswenergy.com Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for UBS Warburg Energy. Quote: "Allison, where's daddy?" "Phphphphhphhphphphhphhh." ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:39:12 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-806.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113992 Mike Swaim wrote: > "Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" wrote in message > news:1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk... >> A >> viewpoint with which I wholeheartedly concur: just what fuckwitted >> judge was it that found against MacDonald's for having hot coffee >> anyway? > > The coffee was hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns. When you start > getting letters from burn hospitals about your coffee, you might start > thinking that you have a problem. And McDonald's had settled over 700 claims for exactly the same thing at that point, and their own quality control engineers testifed under oath that (jokes aside) the temperature made the coffee unfit for human consumption. There's also the fact that A) the woman wasn't driving, contrary to the common lies told in the press, B) the car wasn't moving, contrary to the press lies, and C) the woman required recontructive surgery to save her life. Also, contrary to the oft-repreated lies that Brian mindlessly parrots, it wasn't a judge that made the decision, it was a jury, who found that the woman was partly responsible (20%, IIRC), which lowered the award by that percentage. What the *judge* did was lower the punitive damage award to the statutory three times the actual damages, which were limited to the medical and legal expenses. The actual damage award was less than $200,000, not the millions the press always lies about. In point of fact, the McDonald's coffee case is a textbook example of *precisely* how the "frivilous lawsuit" whiners (or, at least, those who don't want to do away with the jury system entirely, who are so droolingly stupid they shouldn't be allowed in public places without a leash and a muzzle) say the system *should* work. Terry Austin ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:42:13 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-940.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113975 Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > just what fuckwitted judge was it that found > against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines about something they know nothing about. It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ the the statutory limit, which made the total award less than $200,000. In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly the way you think it should have. Idiot. Terry Austin ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 22:15:34 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1028758534snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1028789528 mail2news:28723 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114174 In article taustin@hyperbooks.com "Terry Austin" writes: > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > > just what fuckwitted judge was it that found > > against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? > > No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines > about something they know nothing about. > > It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ > the the statutory limit, which made the total award > less than $200,000. Juries are notorious for awarding ridiculously inflated levels of damages, which are nearly always reduced on appeal. [See, for example, many libel suits against "Private Eye", etc] -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: J. Clarke Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:16:24 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-108.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113920 In article , taustin@hyperbooks.com says... > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > > just what fuckwitted judge was it that found > > against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? > > No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines > about something they know nothing about. > > It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ > the the statutory limit, which made the total award > less than $200,000. > > In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you > whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly > the way you think it should have. > > Idiot. If you had left out the "'tard-boy" and "Idiot" I would believe that you actually had something useful to say. However it is clear that you're just jerking your knee, or something. -- -- --John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net) ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:29:48 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-290.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113890 J. Clarke wrote: > In article , taustin@hyperbooks.com > says... >> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >>> just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>> against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >> >> No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >> about something they know nothing about. >> >> It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >> the the statutory limit, which made the total award >> less than $200,000. >> >> In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you >> whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly >> the way you think it should have. >> >> Idiot. > > If you had left out the "'tard-boy" and "Idiot" I would believe that > you actually had something useful to say. However it is clear that > you're just jerking your knee, or something. > If you judge the message by how much you like the messenger, you're a 'tard, too. Good riddance. Terry Austin ###### Message-ID: <3D519FAC.2090304@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 22:33:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028759621 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:33:41 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:33:41 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113735 On 8/7/02 10:42 AM, Terry Austin wrote: > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > > >>just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? > > > No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines > about something they know nothing about. > > It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ > the the statutory limit, which made the total award > less than $200,000. No, the total award was $640,000; $480,000 for punitive + $160,000 for compensatory. The $160,000 was the jury's original award for compensatory -- $200,000, minus 20% for the woman's contributory negligence. The woman had orginally asked McD for $20000; when they turned that down she hired a lawyer, who asked McD for $225,000; when McD rejected that they went to court. > In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you > whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly > the way you think it should have. > > Idiot. Indeed, the "fuckwits" are the sociopaths whose brains are filled with the memes put there by the insurance companies and the corporate propagandists, which fit with their own social retardation. I've been on juries with these sorts of folks, and they act like total idiots, huffing and puffing about other people's stupidity, all the while ignoring both the facts of the case and the law. In this case, all you have to do is know the names of the parties so you can google mcdonalds liebeck and you get numerous hits that spell out the facts of the case. OTOH, if you just search for mcdonalds coffee lawsuit you get the rantings of the ignorant retards, who reinforce each other's stupidity with their sociopathic drivel. -- ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:57:32 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D519FAC.2090304@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-220.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113930 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/7/02 10:42 AM, Terry Austin wrote: >> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >> >>> just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>> against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >> >> >> No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >> about something they know nothing about. >> >> It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >> the the statutory limit, which made the total award >> less than $200,000. > > No, the total award was $640,000; $480,000 for punitive + > $160,000 for compensatory. The $160,000 was the jury's > original award for compensatory -- $200,000, minus > 20% for the woman's contributory negligence. You are correct. I was thinking of the actual damages award. > > The woman had orginally asked McD for $20000; That's 1/10th the amount the jury awarded after listening to McDonald's own testimony. > when they turned that down she hired a lawyer, > who asked McD for $225,000; when McD > rejected that they went to court. > >> In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you >> whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly >> the way you think it should have. >> >> Idiot. > > Indeed, the "fuckwits" are the sociopaths whose brains > are filled with the memes put there by the insurance > companies and the corporate propagandists, which fit with > their own social retardation. I've been on juries > with these sorts of folks, and they act like total > idiots, huffing and puffing about other people's > stupidity, all the while ignoring both the facts of the > case and the law. In this case, all you have to do is > know the names of the parties so you can google > mcdonalds liebeck > and you get numerous hits that spell out the facts of > the case. OTOH, if you just search for > mcdonalds coffee lawsuit > you get the rantings of the ignorant retards, > who reinforce each other's stupidity with their > sociopathic drivel. Heh. Terry Austin ###### Message-ID: <3D51A658.7020306@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:02:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028761328 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:02:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:02:08 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113670 On 8/7/02 3:16 PM, J. Clarke wrote: > In article , taustin@hyperbooks.com > says... > >>Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >> >>>just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>>against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >> >>No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >>about something they know nothing about. >> >>It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >>the the statutory limit, which made the total award >>less than $200,000. >> >>In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you >>whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly >>the way you think it should have. >> >>Idiot. > > > If you had left out the "'tard-boy" and "Idiot" I would believe that you > actually had something useful to say. However it is clear that you're > just jerking your knee, or something. The idiot 'tard-boy had called the judge a "fuckwit" while himself showing his dimwittedness, so Austin's reponse was only fair. > Once again J. "knee jerk" Clarke proves what a hypocrite he is. -- ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:15:37 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D51A658.7020306@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-510.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113917 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/7/02 3:16 PM, J. Clarke wrote: >> In article , taustin@hyperbooks.com >> says... >> >>> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >>> >>> >>>> just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>>> against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >>> >>> No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >>> about something they know nothing about. >>> >>> It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >>> the the statutory limit, which made the total award >>> less than $200,000. >>> >>> In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you >>> whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly >>> the way you think it should have. >>> >>> Idiot. >> >> >> If you had left out the "'tard-boy" and "Idiot" I would believe that >> you actually had something useful to say. However it is clear that >> you're just jerking your knee, or something. > > The idiot 'tard-boy had called the judge a "fuckwit" while himself > showing his dimwittedness, so Austin's reponse was only fair. > >> > > Once again J. "knee jerk" Clarke proves what a hypocrite he is. "Hypocrite" implies he's smart enough to know what he's said, and that he does not live up to his own words. I see no evidence of his awareness of either. Terry Austin ###### Message-ID: <3D51A9A4.3050907@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D519FAC.2090304@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 77 Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:16:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028762172 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:16:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:16:12 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113707 On 8/7/02 3:33 PM, Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/7/02 10:42 AM, Terry Austin wrote: > >> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >> >>> just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>> against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >> >> >> >> No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >> about something they know nothing about. >> >> It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >> the the statutory limit, which made the total award >> less than $200,000. > > > No, the total award was $640,000; $480,000 for punitive + > $160,000 for compensatory. The $160,000 was the jury's > original award for compensatory -- $200,000, minus > 20% for the woman's contributory negligence. > > The woman had orginally asked McD for $20000; > when they turned that down she hired a lawyer, > who asked McD for $225,000; when McD > rejected that they went to court. > >> In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you >> whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly >> the way you think it should have. >> >> Idiot. > > > Indeed, the "fuckwits" are the sociopaths whose brains > are filled with the memes put there by the insurance > companies and the corporate propagandists, which fit with > their own social retardation. I've been on juries > with these sorts of folks, and they act like total > idiots, huffing and puffing about other people's > stupidity, all the while ignoring both the facts of the > case and the law. In this case, all you have to do is > know the names of the parties so you can google > mcdonalds liebeck > and you get numerous hits that spell out the facts of > the case. OTOH, if you just search for > mcdonalds coffee lawsuit > you get the rantings of the ignorant retards, > who reinforce each other's stupidity with their > sociopathic drivel. Oops, a correction: if you search for mcdonalds coffee lawsuit you get the facts. But if you search for the retard's spelling, macdonalds coffee lawsuit, you get the rantings of similar retards. For instance, at http://ic0noclast.diaryland.com/020603_97.html "that fuckin' macdonalds coffee lady who spills coffee on herself then sued (AND WON!) because she's fuckin' clumsy. it's pathetic and goes to lengths that make no sense. [...] WAKE UP people...and take some fucking responsibility for your lives...and stop blaming others because you cannot deal with anything. [...] it's not your fault that you're always wrong the weak ones are here to justify the strong" Sound familiar? These are intensely stupid people who haven't a clue as to how retarded they are. They have fantasies about being "strong" while failing objective tests for same. They mistake Lamarckianism for Darwinism and fail to even grasp that a woman who has survived to 80 before spilling scalding coffee on herself is by far their superior by even their foolish criteria. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D51B664.7000300@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D51A658.7020306@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:10:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028765437 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:10:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:10:37 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113655 On 8/7/02 4:15 PM, Terry Austin wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > >>On 8/7/02 3:16 PM, J. Clarke wrote: >> >>>In article , taustin@hyperbooks.com >>>says... >>> >>> >>>>Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>>>>against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >>>> >>>>No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >>>>about something they know nothing about. >>>> >>>>It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >>>>the the statutory limit, which made the total award >>>>less than $200,000. >>>> >>>>In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you >>>>whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly >>>>the way you think it should have. >>>> >>>>Idiot. >>> >>> >>>If you had left out the "'tard-boy" and "Idiot" I would believe that >>>you actually had something useful to say. However it is clear that >>>you're just jerking your knee, or something. >> >>The idiot 'tard-boy had called the judge a "fuckwit" while himself >>showing his dimwittedness, so Austin's reponse was only fair. >> >> >>> >> >>Once again J. "knee jerk" Clarke proves what a hypocrite he is. > > > "Hypocrite" implies he's smart enough to know what he's > said, and that he does not live up to his own words. > > I see no evidence of his awareness of either. Failure to criticize isn't inconsistent with lack of awareness. Also, my comments weren't so much addressed to Clarke (after all, I used the third person and he's plonked us both) as to those able to appreciate the application of Clarke's phrase to himself -- and by extension, to those dimwits who might have been (and, if dim enough, still are) mentally applauding him. But thanks for playing. :-) -- ###### Message-ID: <3D51C17E.80704@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D51A658.7020306@exodus.nospam> <3D51B664.7000300@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 81 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:58:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028768281 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:58:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 20:58:01 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113643 On 8/7/02 5:10 PM, Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/7/02 4:15 PM, Terry Austin wrote: > >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>> On 8/7/02 3:16 PM, J. Clarke wrote: >>> >>>> In article , taustin@hyperbooks.com >>>> says... >>>> >>>> >>>>> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>>>>> against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >>>>> about something they know nothing about. >>>>> >>>>> It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >>>>> the the statutory limit, which made the total award >>>>> less than $200,000. >>>>> >>>>> In short, 'tard-boy, in that particular case that you >>>>> whine about, the system worked pretty much exactly >>>>> the way you think it should have. >>>>> >>>>> Idiot. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If you had left out the "'tard-boy" and "Idiot" I would believe that >>>> you actually had something useful to say. However it is clear that >>>> you're just jerking your knee, or something. >>> >>> >>> The idiot 'tard-boy had called the judge a "fuckwit" while himself >>> showing his dimwittedness, so Austin's reponse was only fair. >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Once again J. "knee jerk" Clarke proves what a hypocrite he is. >> >> >> >> "Hypocrite" implies he's smart enough to know what he's >> said, and that he does not live up to his own words. >> >> I see no evidence of his awareness of either. > > > Failure to criticize isn't inconsistent with lack of awareness. After (but not before, sigh) posting this I bothered to check the dictionary and found that I have apparently long held to a private definition of "hypocrisy" as meaning essentially "employing a double standard", rather than the public definition of pretending to hold a position one does not. So just interpret what I wrote in that light. (I shudder to think how much miscommunication I've caused over the years due to this misunderstanding.) Now if only the retards were able to correct their views in the light of contrary evidence. > Also, my comments weren't so much addressed to Clarke > (after all, I used the third person and he's plonked > us both) as to those able to appreciate the application > of Clarke's phrase to himself -- and by extension, to > those dimwits who might have been (and, if dim enough, > still are) mentally applauding him. > > But thanks for playing. :-) -- ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:25:46 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <080820020225469051%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D51A658.7020306@exodus.nospam> <3D51B664.7000300@exodus.nospam> <3D51C17E.80704@exodus.nospam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113898 In article <3D51C17E.80704@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter wrote: > >> "Hypocrite" implies he's smart enough to know what he's > >> said, and that he does not live up to his own words. > >> > >> I see no evidence of his awareness of either. > > > > > > Failure to criticize isn't inconsistent with lack of awareness. > > After (but not before, sigh) posting this I bothered to check the > dictionary and found that I have apparently long held to a private > definition of "hypocrisy" as meaning essentially "employing a double > standard", rather than the public definition of pretending to > hold a position one does not. So just interpret what I > wrote in that light. (I shudder to think how much miscommunication > I've caused over the years due to this misunderstanding.) > > Now if only the retards were able to correct their views > in the light of contrary evidence. > > > Also, my comments weren't so much addressed to Clarke > > (after all, I used the third person and he's plonked > > us both) as to those able to appreciate the application > > of Clarke's phrase to himself -- and by extension, to > > those dimwits who might have been (and, if dim enough, > > still are) mentally applauding him. > > > > But thanks for playing. :-) Well, one definition or the other, all the contestants are setting the bar low for when the meatfree thinkers set up your Turing test. Imagine being squashed into a 19" rack, so the judges can't tell you are not a silicon on insulator life-form. ###### Message-ID: <3D51CCF5.9080901@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D51A658.7020306@exodus.nospam> <3D51B664.7000300@exodus.nospam> <3D51C17E.80704@exodus.nospam> <080820020225469051%elliott@yrl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 54 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:46:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028771214 68.6.38.179 (Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:46:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:46:54 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113741 On 8/7/02 6:25 PM, Elliott Roper wrote: > In article <3D51C17E.80704@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter > wrote: > > > >>>>"Hypocrite" implies he's smart enough to know what he's >>>>said, and that he does not live up to his own words. >>>> >>>>I see no evidence of his awareness of either. >>> >>> >>>Failure to criticize isn't inconsistent with lack of awareness. >> >>After (but not before, sigh) posting this I bothered to check the >>dictionary and found that I have apparently long held to a private >>definition of "hypocrisy" as meaning essentially "employing a double >>standard", rather than the public definition of pretending to >>hold a position one does not. So just interpret what I >>wrote in that light. (I shudder to think how much miscommunication >>I've caused over the years due to this misunderstanding.) >> >>Now if only the retards were able to correct their views >>in the light of contrary evidence. >> >> >>>Also, my comments weren't so much addressed to Clarke >>>(after all, I used the third person and he's plonked >>>us both) as to those able to appreciate the application >>>of Clarke's phrase to himself -- and by extension, to >>>those dimwits who might have been (and, if dim enough, >>>still are) mentally applauding him. >>> >>>But thanks for playing. :-) >> > > Well, one definition or the other, all the contestants are setting the > bar low I presume, given the context, that you include yourself in that. > for when the meatfree thinkers set up your Turing test. Or, perhaps not. your -> our > Imagine being squashed into a 19" rack, so the judges can't tell you > are not a silicon on insulator life-form. If I were squished into a 19" rack, the judges would note my failure to respond to their questions. -- ###### From: wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 8 Aug 2002 02:02:11 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix1.panix.com X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1028786531 9699 166.84.1.1 (8 Aug 2002 06:02:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 06:02:11 +0000 (UTC) In-reply-to: Jim Balter Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix1.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113833 In article <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter said: > Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now > responded to my politically incorrect comments (in the U.S., > especially after 9/11, only jingoism is politically correct) > with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates > something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. > Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. No, they've plonked you because you keep acting like a low-grade jackass and they got tired of it. As have I. -- William December Starr ###### Message-ID: <3D5209B1.8060601@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:06:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028786762 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:06:02 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:06:02 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!easynet-quince!easynet.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113663 On 8/7/02 11:02 PM, William December Starr wrote: > In article <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam>, > Jim Balter said: > > >>Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now >>responded to my politically incorrect comments (in the U.S., >>especially after 9/11, only jingoism is politically correct) >>with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates >>something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. >>Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. > > > No, they've plonked you because you keep acting like a low-grade > jackass and they got tired of it. As have I. But it's that sort of statement, and not mine, that is typical of a jackass. The evidence of this thread makes it clear that each and every one of the people who plonked me are jackasses. And it's no coincidence that they are all jingoists. -- ###### From: Erik Max Francis Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:36:49 -0700 Organization: Alcyone Systems Message-ID: <3D521181.F62749B@alcyone.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en, eo MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D5209B1.8060601@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113606 Jim Balter wrote: > But it's that sort of statement, and not mine, that is > typical of a jackass. Look like you're rapidly running out of people to yell at, huh? -- Erik Max Francis / max@alcyone.com / http://www.alcyone.com/max/ __ San Jose, CA, US / 37 20 N 121 53 W / ICQ16063900 / &tSftDotIotE / \ There is nothing so subject to the inconstancy of fortune as war. \__/ Miguel de Cervantes Church / http://www.alcyone.com/pyos/church/ A lambda calculus explorer in Python. ###### Message-ID: <3D5213E6.7060206@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D5209B1.8060601@exodus.nospam> <3D521181.F62749B@alcyone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:49:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028789374 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:49:34 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 02:49:34 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113668 On 8/7/02 11:36 PM, Erik Max Francis wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > > >>But it's that sort of statement, and not mine, that is >>typical of a jackass. > > > Look like you're rapidly running out of people to yell at, huh? Non sequitur. In any case, I have no problem with a handful of jackasses announcing themselves. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D5218E9.9020700@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <1028758534snz@dsl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:10:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028790657 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:10:57 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:10:57 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113679 On 8/7/02 3:15 PM, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: > In article > taustin@hyperbooks.com "Terry Austin" writes: > > >>Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: >> >> >>>just what fuckwitted judge was it that found >>>against MacDonald's for having hot coffee anyway? >> >>No judge did, and only a fucking retard whines >>about something they know nothing about. >> >>It was a *jury* decision, that the *judge* _reduced_ >>the the statutory limit, which made the total award >>less than $200,000. > > > Juries are notorious for awarding ridiculously inflated levels of > damages, which are nearly always reduced on appeal. You are notorious for making false and sweeping statements. You have displayed no intelligence whatsoever, yet have the audacity to complain about others being "fuckwits" or counterdarwinian. Ah, but I guess the former is cause for the latter. -- ###### From: "Christopher M. Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 69 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.229.240.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1028798856 12.229.240.155 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113634 "Jim Balter" wrote: > On 8/6/02 10:33 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > > "Jim Balter" wrote: > > > >>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when > >>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. > >>Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a > >>upper middle class white male living in a country that > >>has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the > >>world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the > >>short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. > > > > > > A very telling statement revealing your biases. It is > > a common saw but it is vastly misleading. From the > > statement you might think that the US was "hogging" > > more than its "fair share" of world resources, but > > nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality > > the "resources" are not resources at all, but products. > > Things such as produced iron ore, electricity, food, > > etc. These are not, as one might otherwise presume, > > non-renewable, limited supply items. For example, the > > US consumes quite a lot of food per capita, it also > > produces quite a lot of food per capita, more than it > > uses in fact. The same is true for essentially all > > other "resources" of the world. > > Considering that the U.S. is the sole superpower and > its military budget is greater than the sum of the next 25 > nations combined, it would be quite surprising, from > an objective realpolitik POV, if its power and wealth were not > used to its benefit. The flow of oil alone bears this out. > So not only do we see your biases clearly here, but we > are led back to science fiction. Well done. Thank your lucky stars that the US is the world's only superpower. Your statement about "it would be quite surprising..." is complete bunk because it rests on a supposition not on factual evidence. The fact is that the US does use its power to further its own interests but in relation to every other nation on Earth it does so with a remarkable degree of fairness and restraint. Oil is one of those nominally non-renewable resources that is rather tricky to estimate because like so much else oil is really *produced*. When one says "there is thus and such amount of oil" most often what they are really saying is that there is thus and such amount of oil in known reserves extractable using current methods. Because the ability to find new reserves, the ability to exploit new reserves, and the ability to more thoroughly exploit reserves improves with time, it becomes rather difficult to estimate how much oil is "available". The truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and certainly more than the US has used). And, again, the US may use quite a lot of the world's oil supply but in so doing it also pays for the "production" of that oil through oil rigs, refineries, etc. It would be vastly untrue and disingenuous to state that the US consumed "more than its fair share" of oil "resources" since the US has not yet used up 6% of the world's oil. -- This random message was censored by popular request ###### From: "Christopher M. Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.229.240.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1028799377 12.229.240.155 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:36:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:36:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:36:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114149 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message > news:vi249.19992$UU1.4781@sccrnsc03... > > A very telling statement revealing your biases. It is > > a common saw but it is vastly misleading. From the > > statement you might think that the US was "hogging" > > more than its "fair share" of world resources, but > > nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality > > the "resources" are not resources at all, but products. > > [SNIP] > > Hmmm ... does that include fossil fuels ... ? > > If America was self-sufficient in terms of oil production > there would be less need to try and keep the arabs sweet. See my other post, there are many complexities. The short answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels (i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of oil wells, etc.) -- Teal's a lot more blue. ###### Message-ID: <3D524A3F.1090109@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 92 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:41:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028803291 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:41:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 06:41:31 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113697 On 8/8/02 2:27 AM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Jim Balter" wrote: > >>On 8/6/02 10:33 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: >> >>>"Jim Balter" wrote: >>> >>> >>>>My "agenda" is to point out the truth, especially when >>>>lack of awareness of it leads to massive injustice. >>>>Other than that, I don't have an agenda -- as a >>>>upper middle class white male living in a country that >>>>has 6% of the world's population but uses 25% of the >>>>world's resources, I generally benefit, at least in the >>>>short term, from U.S. dominance and bullying. >>> >>> >>>A very telling statement revealing your biases. It is >>>a common saw but it is vastly misleading. From the >>>statement you might think that the US was "hogging" >>>more than its "fair share" of world resources, but >>>nothing could be further from the truth. In actuality >>>the "resources" are not resources at all, but products. >>>Things such as produced iron ore, electricity, food, >>>etc. These are not, as one might otherwise presume, >>>non-renewable, limited supply items. For example, the >>>US consumes quite a lot of food per capita, it also >>>produces quite a lot of food per capita, more than it >>>uses in fact. The same is true for essentially all >>>other "resources" of the world. >> >>Considering that the U.S. is the sole superpower and >>its military budget is greater than the sum of the next 25 >>nations combined, it would be quite surprising, from >>an objective realpolitik POV, if its power and wealth were not >>used to its benefit. The flow of oil alone bears this out. >>So not only do we see your biases clearly here, but we >>are led back to science fiction. Well done. > > > Thank your lucky stars that the US is the world's only > superpower. Your statement about "it would be quite > surprising..." is complete bunk because it rests on a > supposition not on factual evidence. No, it would be quite surprising, to a rational and objective mind -- the surprise comes from the inconsistency with the entirety of one's knowledge about history, politics, sociology, and so on. > The fact is that > the US does use its power to further its own interests > but in relation to every other nation on Earth it does > so with a remarkable degree of fairness and restraint. Asserting it doesn't make it a fact. But, if it is remarkable, that is only because it is surprising. Sheesh. > Oil is one of those nominally non-renewable resources > that is rather tricky to estimate because like so much > else oil is really *produced*. When one says "there is > thus and such amount of oil" most often what they are > really saying is that there is thus and such amount of > oil in known reserves extractable using current methods. > Because the ability to find new reserves, the ability to > exploit new reserves, and the ability to more thoroughly > exploit reserves improves with time, it becomes rather > difficult to estimate how much oil is "available". The > truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum > that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is > to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total > amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and > certainly more than the US has used). And, again, the > US may use quite a lot of the world's oil supply but in > so doing it also pays for the "production" of that oil > through oil rigs, refineries, etc. It would be vastly > untrue and disingenuous to state that the US consumed > "more than its fair share" of oil "resources" since the > US has not yet used up 6% of the world's oil. Talk about disengenuous! If every nation had used up the same percentage of the world's oil as their percentage of the population, there would be no oil left. Since that isn't the case, whether or not the U.S. has used up 6% of the world's oil has no bearing on whether it has used more than it's fair share. Sheesh. -- ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:56:10 +0100 Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-937.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1028811026 23167 217.134.19.169 (8 Aug 2002 12:50:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2002 12:50:26 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114008 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message news:lYq49.38565$sA3.11788@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... [SNIP] > See my other post, there are many complexities. The short > answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" > even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no > question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels > (i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of > oil wells, etc.) You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard sonny, it's very thin. :) I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do know that the US has broken one treaty that may require reduced consumption of such fuels. On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and friendship. My personal feeling is that the US.Gov is doing it's citizens a grave dis-service at present. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:06:33 +0100 Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-937.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 1028811649 21838 217.134.19.169 (8 Aug 2002 13:00:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2002 13:00:49 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113960 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message news:cQq49.46990$D36.53635@rwcrnsc53... [SNIP] > supposition not on factual evidence. The fact is that > the US does use its power to further its own interests > but in relation to every other nation on Earth it does > so with a remarkable degree of fairness and restraint. That's a matter of flamewar style debate. The evidence from the viewpoint of a Brit is that the US does in fact use it's power to further it's own interests. Just as every other nation does. The US has considerably more military/financial/political power than most nations so it's more easily noticed. :) > Oil is one of those nominally non-renewable resources > that is rather tricky to estimate because like so much > else oil is really *produced*. When one says "there is OK, look at it this way : 1) You are using a finite resource. 2) You know that you could reduce the rate of consumption of the finite resource considerably with relatively little inconvienience. 3) You don't know for sure how much of said finite resouce is left. Doesn't it strike you that reducing consumption *now* would be a rational thing to do ? Of course while you reduce your rate of consumption you can look around for alternatives and better methods of "production" of that resource. > thus and such amount of oil" most often what they are > really saying is that there is thus and such amount of > oil in known reserves extractable using current methods. > Because the ability to find new reserves, the ability to > exploit new reserves, and the ability to more thoroughly > exploit reserves improves with time, it becomes rather > difficult to estimate how much oil is "available". The That's quite a big gamble though. You know it's a big gamble because you're waving your hands quite vigourously. [SNIP] Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3D526DE0.8000004@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 79 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:13:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028812413 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:13:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:13:33 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113683 On 8/8/02 6:06 AM, Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message > news:cQq49.46990$D36.53635@rwcrnsc53... > [SNIP] > >>supposition not on factual evidence. The fact is that >>the US does use its power to further its own interests >>but in relation to every other nation on Earth it does >>so with a remarkable degree of fairness and restraint. > > > That's a matter of flamewar style debate. Like I said, it's American jingoism, and utterly irrational. I wouldn't even honor it with the term "debate". > The evidence > from the viewpoint of a Brit is that the US does in fact > use it's power to further it's own interests. Just as > every other nation does. That's the evidence from all points of view; the evidence remains the same, no matter who's looking. It would be utterly bizarre (as I said, "surprising"; as Jones said, without even realizing the admission, "remarkable") for it to be otherwise. There's no credible theory as to why one nation, the U.S., might act in such a "remarkable" manner. > The US has considerably more > military/financial/political power than most nations so > it's more easily noticed. :) But it's not noticed by many Americans. >>Oil is one of those nominally non-renewable resources >>that is rather tricky to estimate because like so much >>else oil is really *produced*. When one says "there is > > > OK, look at it this way : > 1) You are using a finite resource. > 2) You know that you could reduce the rate of consumption > of the finite resource considerably with relatively little > inconvienience. > 3) You don't know for sure how much of said finite resouce > is left. > > Doesn't it strike you that reducing consumption *now* > would be a rational thing to do ? Of course while you > reduce your rate of consumption you can look around for > alternatives and better methods of "production" of that > resource. > > >>thus and such amount of oil" most often what they are >>really saying is that there is thus and such amount of >>oil in known reserves extractable using current methods. >>Because the ability to find new reserves, the ability to >>exploit new reserves, and the ability to more thoroughly >>exploit reserves improves with time, it becomes rather >>difficult to estimate how much oil is "available". The > > > That's quite a big gamble though. You know it's a big > gamble because you're waving your hands quite vigourously. > > [SNIP] > > Cheers, > Rupert > > -- ###### From: "Mike Swaim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:04:13 -0500 Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users Lines: 17 Sender: swaim@hal-pc.org Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <1028758534snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.240.116.4 X-Trace: news.hal-pc.org 1028815436 18911 65.240.116.4 (8 Aug 2002 14:03:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-pc.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:03:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!12.120.4.37!attcg2!attdl2!ip.att.net!nntp1.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113870 "Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" wrote in message news:1028758534snz@dsl.co.uk... > > Juries are notorious for awarding ridiculously inflated levels of > damages, which are nearly always reduced on appeal. In this case, punitive damages were 2 days coffee profits. The jury felt that McDonalds would ignore anything smaller. -- Mike Swaim Michael.Swaim@ubswenergy.com Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for UBS Warburg Energy. Quote: "Allison, where's daddy?" "Phphphphhphhphphphhphhh." ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:58:50 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3D528729.3142695E@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3D51A658.7020306@exodus.nospam> <3D51B664.7000300@exodus.nospam> <3D51C17E.80704@exodus.nospam> <080820020225469051%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D51CCF5.9080901@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@171.69.75.49 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 72 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114195 Maybe the aliens weren't so appalled THAT we think with meat but WHAT we think with meat. Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/7/02 6:25 PM, Elliott Roper wrote: > > In article <3D51C17E.80704@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>"Hypocrite" implies he's smart enough to know what he's > >>>>said, and that he does not live up to his own words. > >>>> > >>>>I see no evidence of his awareness of either. > >>> > >>> > >>>Failure to criticize isn't inconsistent with lack of awareness. > >> > >>After (but not before, sigh) posting this I bothered to check the > >>dictionary and found that I have apparently long held to a private > >>definition of "hypocrisy" as meaning essentially "employing a double > >>standard", rather than the public definition of pretending to > >>hold a position one does not. So just interpret what I > >>wrote in that light. (I shudder to think how much miscommunication > >>I've caused over the years due to this misunderstanding.) > >> > >>Now if only the retards were able to correct their views > >>in the light of contrary evidence. > >> > >> > >>>Also, my comments weren't so much addressed to Clarke > >>>(after all, I used the third person and he's plonked > >>>us both) as to those able to appreciate the application > >>>of Clarke's phrase to himself -- and by extension, to > >>>those dimwits who might have been (and, if dim enough, > >>>still are) mentally applauding him. > >>> > >>>But thanks for playing. :-) > >> > > > > Well, one definition or the other, all the contestants are setting the > > bar low > > I presume, given the context, that you include yourself in that. > > > for when the meatfree thinkers set up your Turing test. > > Or, perhaps not. your -> our > > > Imagine being squashed into a 19" rack, so the judges can't tell you > > are not a silicon on insulator life-form. > > If I were squished into a 19" rack, the judges would note > my failure to respond to their questions. > > -- > -- Always design your programs as a member of a whole family of programs, including those that are likely to succeed it. I mean, if 10 years from now, when you are doing something quick and dirty, you suddenly visualize that I am looking over your shoulders and say to yourself, "Dijkstra would not have liked this", well that would be enough immortality for me. -- Edsger W Dijkstra ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Message-ID: <4loU9ks/KX9Y089yn@the-wire.com> References: <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D4E1D65.6090709@exodus.nospam> <3D5209B1.8060601@exodus.nospam> Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 11:08:40 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.81 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1028826598 205.206.39.81 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:09:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 13:09:58 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113886 In article <3D5209B1.8060601@exodus.nospam>, Jim Balter wrote: >On 8/7/02 11:02 PM, William December Starr wrote: >> In article <3D4E2640.6090701@exodus.nospam>, >> Jim Balter said: >> >> >>>Messrs Francis, Kristopher, and Snyder have all now >>>responded to my politically incorrect comments (in the U.S., >>>especially after 9/11, only jingoism is politically correct) >>>with stupid and emotional one-liners. This, I think, demonstrates >>>something about how ideology and propaganda rot the mind. >>>Hopefully non-meaty robots won't display this flaw. >> >> >> No, they've plonked you because you keep acting like a low-grade >> jackass and they got tired of it. As have I. > >But it's that sort of statement, and not mine, that is >typical of a jackass. The evidence of this thread >makes it clear that each and every one of the people >who plonked me are jackasses. And it's no coincidence >that they are all jingoists. And we're back on topic: "Thinking with meat." ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:41:47 +0100 Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1209.buffalo.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 1028820961 27432 217.134.68.185 (8 Aug 2002 15:36:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2002 15:36:01 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113969 wrote in message news:aitq7a$4ta$5@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > so that those third world economies get through their high > pollution phase quickly. Err, I don't exactly see how you drew the conclusion that you had to hobble production... Pollution controls != hobbling production. Furthermore a huge amount of "production" is actually done in the 3rd world anyways. I don't follow the USA continues doing it's own thing and that helps everyone else argument either. Reminds me of the Light in the Darkness arguments put forward by British Colonialists. Oh and about the "High Pollution" thing... Many western companies specifically base their operations in the 3rd world because they don't enforce pollution controls effectively... Does Union Carbide ring any bells ? Cheers, Rupert ###### Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:45:40 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Message-ID: <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 08 Aug 2002 16:59:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: i1848.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=@E=ZHl;[`f]c]SFNiM`RB\1`\LnN2UYYQSLDTg=]d^n[g:c3SlKGDWS;@n]L4=GH6_ X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!amsnews01.chello.com!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114054 On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: CMJ> The CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so there's no problem with this rate of use ? CMJ> certainly more than the US has used). And, again, the CMJ> US may use quite a lot of the world's oil supply but in CMJ> so doing it also pays for the "production" of that oil Er - the production of oil requires trees, time and pressure (at least that's how tbe current supply was made). AFAICT the usage rate exceeds the production rate by a very large margin. Is the US doing something to increase this rate ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:07:43 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-562.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113986 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: > > CMJ> The > CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum > CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is > CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total > CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and > > Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource > that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so there's > no problem with this rate of use ? He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the amount that exist were millions of times as much as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. Try to pay attention. Terry Austin ###### From: dtate@ida.org (David Tate) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 8 Aug 2002 11:29:06 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9d67e55e.0208081029.4b2d74b7@posting.google.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.246.254.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1028831346 11486 127.0.0.1 (8 Aug 2002 18:29:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2002 18:29:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114129 "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message news:... > Thank your lucky stars that the US is the world's only > superpower. Your statement about "it would be quite > surprising..." is complete bunk because it rests on a > supposition not on factual evidence. The fact is that > the US does use its power to further its own interests > but in relation to every other nation on Earth it does > so with a remarkable degree of fairness and restraint. As when we had Mossadegh assassinated in the '50s, in order to re-establish the Pahlavi dictatorship in Iran, because he was planning to nationalize the oil industry? And then we helped Pahlavi train the SAVAK as part of our "fairness and restraint" policy? Let's face it -- we spent the second half of the 20th century assassinating socialists and funding coups by lunatic sadist dictators (Saddam Hussein, Pinochet, the Shah, Suharto, 27 various central american martinets...). We shall continue to reap the fruits of those efforts for a very long time to come. That may still leave us ahead of China in terms of "fairness and restraint", but I don't quite see how it qualifies "in relation to every other nation on Earth"... David Tate ###### From: lawrence@c896388-c.attbi.com (Lawrence Statton N1GAK/XE2) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3d4fdc8c$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.29.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1028833387 12.236.29.10 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:03:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:03:07 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 19:03:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114151 On Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:26:02 -0400, Kristopher wrote: >Because there are a lot of people who are never exposed to >nature as a dangerous thing. They live in the city or the >burbs, and all the animals they see are too small to be >dangerous, or pets, or behind bars in a zoo maybe, and they >lack the imagination to see animals as dangerous, and they >lack the curiousity and/or attention span to sit down and >watch more than 5 minutes of something without sex or bombs. > When I was a kid, I found it ironic that {Wild Kingdom} [1] was sponsored by Mutual of Omaha[2]. --Lawrence [1] Wild Kingdom was a terrific nature television program, with the host and his team of helicopter piloting eco-commandos whizzing off to Africa, or Alaska, or other equally exotic places, whereupon they would shoot various large animals with tranquilizer darts for the purpose of relocating them, or studying them, or whatever. I always assumed they just really got off on shooting things with darts. [2] Mutual of Omaha was (and I assume still is) an American Insurance giant. ###### Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:27:57 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Message-ID: <20020808212757.2942a310.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 08 Aug 2002 20:30:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p2546.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=i^C>6b=5jNm]n[Qlg:c3SlKGDWcBZY9I3Y?3Um X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114027 On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:07:43 -0700 "Terry Austin" wrote: TA> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: TA> > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT TA> > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: TA> > TA> > CMJ> The TA> > CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum TA> > CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is TA> > CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total TA> > CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and TA> > TA> > Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource TA> > that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so there's TA> > no problem with this rate of use ? TA> TA> He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the TA> amount that exist were millions of times as much TA> as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. I think the phrasing "actually exceeds" is indicative that it is not being claimed to exceed it by much, don't you ? TA> Try to pay attention. Sorry I hadn't realised the point was to play silly buggers with precision abuse of language. I thought the topic was use of oil. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Adam Canning Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:22:59 +0100 Organization: Home Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <3D526DE0.8000004@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.21.150 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1028838906 41216222 212.159.21.150 (16 [42006]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.21.150!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114097 In article <3D526DE0.8000004@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > On 8/8/02 6:06 AM, Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message > > news:cQq49.46990$D36.53635@rwcrnsc53... > > [SNIP] > > > >>supposition not on factual evidence. The fact is that > >>the US does use its power to further its own interests > >>but in relation to every other nation on Earth it does > >>so with a remarkable degree of fairness and restraint. > > > > > > That's a matter of flamewar style debate. > > Like I said, it's American jingoism, and utterly irrational. > I wouldn't even honor it with the term "debate". > > > The evidence > > from the viewpoint of a Brit is that the US does in fact > > use it's power to further it's own interests. Just as > > every other nation does. > > That's the evidence from all points of view; the > evidence remains the same, no matter who's looking. > It would be utterly bizarre (as I said, "surprising"; > as Jones said, without even realizing the admission, > "remarkable") for it to be otherwise. There's no > credible theory as to why one nation, the U.S., might > act in such a "remarkable" manner. Because despite what they claim about it being good for the world seeing the Hegemon act with contempt towards international law, agreements and standards of behaviour does nothing to encourage anyone else to either. The suggestion for example that article 51 of the UN charter covers an attack on Baghdad leads one to believe that the US government would rather rule by terror ["Fear of the US Airforce will keep the outer countries in line."]than by diplomacy or other peaceful means. One might for example think that this American Administration is demonising Saddam Husein to cover up the diplomatic blunder where a previous one told him it was fine with them whichever way he settled his differences with Kuwait. Having the man who lied to the press about Mai Lai among their senior military officers doesn't make the US any more trustable. We'll leave out insanities like Bush's "It is not in the US interest to reduce pollution." Apparently he thinks they have too many coastal cities. -- Adam Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend. ###### From: Adam Canning Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:32:27 +0100 Organization: Home Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.21.150 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1028839474 41216222 212.159.21.150 (16 [42006]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.21.150!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114098 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message > >news:lYq49.38565$sA3.11788@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... > > > >[SNIP] > > > >> See my other post, there are many complexities. The short > >> answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" > >> even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no > >> question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels > >> (i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of > >> oil wells, etc.) > > > >You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard > >sonny, it's very thin. :) > > > >I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even > >seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do > >know that the US has broken one treaty that may require > >reduced consumption of such fuels. > > > >On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited > >with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that > >front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic > >or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic > >purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the > >US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which > >sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and > >friendship. > > > >My personal feeling is that the US.Gov is doing it's citizens > >a grave dis-service at present. > > The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > so that those third world economies get through their high > pollution phase quickly. The only counties the Kyoto acord said could produce more pollution were Australia, Iceland and Norway. And that was because they had already overshot the amount of reduction they needed to do. Of course if you count them as third world, there is little hope for a rational understanding of geopolitics from you. -- Adam Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 8 Aug 2002 20:44:34 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113845 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: >I do >know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >reduced consumption of such fuels. > >By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >friendship. There's a big difference betwean breaking a treaty and refusing to ratify it . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Jonathan Hendry" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.252.193.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr10.news.prodigy.com 1028840529 ST000 64.252.193.68 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:02:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:02:09 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: TSU[@SFDPRU[B_LZN[OX_TDB[X_LPO@FFA_J]Q]KEYUNDQUCCNSUAACY@L[ZX__HGFD]JBJNSFXTOOGA_VWY^_HG@FW_HUTHOH]TBPGCO\P^PLP^@[GLHUK@WLECKFVL^TYG[@RMWQXIWM[SDDYWNLG_G[_BWUCHFY_Y@AS@Q[B\APPF@DCZM_PG_VSCPQZM Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:02:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr10.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114186 "Adam Canning" wrote in message news:MPG.17bce5b51b6f564c989b55@news.cis.dfn.de... > In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > > The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > > world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > > much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > > so that those third world economies get through their high > > pollution phase quickly. > > The only counties the Kyoto acord said could produce more pollution were > Australia, Iceland and Norway. And that was because they had already > overshot the amount of reduction they needed to do. > > Of course if you count them as third world, there is little hope for a > rational understanding of geopolitics from you. Also, much of that third-world production *is* for American companies... ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:02:28 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-572.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113902 Rupert Pigott wrote: > I do > know that the US has broken one treaty that may require > reduced consumption of such fuels. Which one was that? Kyoto? Didn't break it. Couldn't in fact, since we never ratified it. Terry Austin ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:06:26 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam><20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> <20020808212757.2942a310.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-653.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113952 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:07:43 -0700 > "Terry Austin" wrote: > > TA> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > TA> > On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT > TA> > "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: > TA> > > TA> > CMJ> The > TA> > CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum > TA> > CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is > TA> > CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total > TA> > CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and > TA> > > TA> > Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource > TA> > that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so > there's TA> > no problem with this rate of use ? > TA> > TA> He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the > TA> amount that exist were millions of times as much > TA> as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. > > I think the phrasing "actually exceeds" is indicative that it is > not being claimed to exceed it by much, don't you ? No. I think it *includes* not exceeding it by much, but it hardly imply *only* that possibility. Perhaps it's that I'm aware of just how much we don't know about unknown oil reserves. It could be we've found most of the existing fields, but it could also be that we have found only a fraction of them. > > TA> Try to pay attention. > > Sorry I hadn't realised the point was to play silly buggers with > precision abuse of language. I thought the topic was use of oil. I'm not too sure you thought at all. Terry Austin ###### From: "Christopher M. Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <3D524A3F.1090109@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 46 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.229.240.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1028841248 12.229.240.155 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:14:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:14:08 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:14:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113619 "Jim Balter" wrote: > On 8/8/02 2:27 AM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > > Oil is one of those nominally non-renewable resources > > that is rather tricky to estimate because like so much > > else oil is really *produced*. When one says "there is > > thus and such amount of oil" most often what they are > > really saying is that there is thus and such amount of > > oil in known reserves extractable using current methods. > > Because the ability to find new reserves, the ability to > > exploit new reserves, and the ability to more thoroughly > > exploit reserves improves with time, it becomes rather > > difficult to estimate how much oil is "available". The > > truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum > > that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is > > to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total > > amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and > > certainly more than the US has used). And, again, the > > US may use quite a lot of the world's oil supply but in > > so doing it also pays for the "production" of that oil > > through oil rigs, refineries, etc. It would be vastly > > untrue and disingenuous to state that the US consumed > > "more than its fair share" of oil "resources" since the > > US has not yet used up 6% of the world's oil. > > Talk about disengenuous! If every nation had used up > the same percentage of the world's oil as their > percentage of the population, there would be no oil left. > Since that isn't the case, whether or not the U.S. has used > up 6% of the world's oil has no bearing on whether it > has used more than it's fair share. Sheesh. How so? Using up "our fair percentage" of the world's oil would be our problem, not the world's. We haven't done that yet so it's completely disingenuous to talk about the US using "more than it's fair share". There is still plenty of oil left in the ground for the rest of the world to use as much oil per capita as the US has. And, when the oil does run out we can always burn your strawmen, you seem to have a plentiful supply. -- Shazbot! ###### From: "Christopher M. Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 38 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.229.240.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1028841590 12.229.240.155 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:19:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:19:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:19:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113628 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard > sonny, it's very thin. :) > > I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even > seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do > know that the US has broken one treaty that may require > reduced consumption of such fuels. > > On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited > with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that > front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic > or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic > purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the > US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which > sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and > friendship. Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions of "international law" rattling around in your head you can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing from the treaty was built into it and was properly followed. I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository before you speak on these topics in the future. -- Well, it should be obvious to even the most dim-witted individual, who holds an advanced degree in hyperbolic topology, n'gee ###### Message-ID: <3D52E16C.9060608@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:26:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028841993 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:26:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:26:33 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!central.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113718 On 8/8/02 10:07 AM, Terry Austin wrote: > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >>On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT >>"Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >> >>CMJ> The >>CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum >>CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is >>CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total >>CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and >> >>Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource >>that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so there's >>no problem with this rate of use ? > > > He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the > amount that exist were millions of times as much > as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. > > Try to pay attention. Well, someone needs to pay attention. What CMJ wrote is equivalent to "It's enormously likely that we've used less than half" and SOHS responded "And you think that makes it ok?" Sheesh. -- ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:39:23 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> <3D52E16C.9060608@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-403.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!199.106.71.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113942 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/8/02 10:07 AM, Terry Austin wrote: >> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT >>> "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >>> >>> CMJ> The >>> CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum >>> CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is >>> CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total >>> CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and >>> >>> Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource >>> that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so there's >>> no problem with this rate of use ? >> >> >> He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the >> amount that exist were millions of times as much >> as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. >> >> Try to pay attention. > > Well, someone needs to pay attention. What CMJ wrote > is equivalent to "It's enormously likely that we've > used less than half" and SOHS responded "And you think > that makes it ok?" That is correct. And SOHS asked that without first determining precisely what the CMJ meant. It is not possible to meaningfully answer the question without knowing if "less than half" means "just less than half," or "a whole lot less than half," since that may well produce different answers. .00001% is less than half, after all. > > Sheesh. Indeed. Terry Austin ###### Message-ID: <3D52E73E.506@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <3D526DE0.8000004@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 69 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:51:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028843482 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:51:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:51:22 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113617 On 8/8/02 1:22 PM, Adam Canning wrote: > In article <3D526DE0.8000004@exodus.nospam>, jqb@exodus.nospam says... > >>On 8/8/02 6:06 AM, Rupert Pigott wrote: >> >>>"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message >>>news:cQq49.46990$D36.53635@rwcrnsc53... >>>[SNIP] >>> >>> >>>>supposition not on factual evidence. The fact is that >>>>the US does use its power to further its own interests >>>>but in relation to every other nation on Earth it does >>>>so with a remarkable degree of fairness and restraint. >>> >>> >>>That's a matter of flamewar style debate. >> >>Like I said, it's American jingoism, and utterly irrational. >>I wouldn't even honor it with the term "debate". >> >> >>>The evidence >>>from the viewpoint of a Brit is that the US does in fact >>>use it's power to further it's own interests. Just as >>>every other nation does. >> >>That's the evidence from all points of view; the >>evidence remains the same, no matter who's looking. >>It would be utterly bizarre (as I said, "surprising"; >>as Jones said, without even realizing the admission, >>"remarkable") for it to be otherwise. There's no >>credible theory as to why one nation, the U.S., might >>act in such a "remarkable" manner. To make it clear, by ``"remarkable" manner'', I meant "altruistically". No nation state does that, and those who who think otherwise -- but only about their own state and its designated allies -- have been brainwashed by its propaganda. > Because despite what they claim about it being good for the world seeing > the Hegemon act with contempt towards international law, agreements and > standards of behaviour does nothing to encourage anyone else to either. > The suggestion for example that article 51 of the UN charter covers an > attack on Baghdad leads one to believe that the US government would > rather rule by terror ["Fear of the US Airforce will keep the outer > countries in line."]than by diplomacy or other peaceful means. One might > for example think that this American Administration is demonising Saddam > Husein to cover up the diplomatic blunder where a previous one told him > it was fine with them whichever way he settled his differences with > Kuwait. Having the man who lied to the press about Mai Lai among their > senior military officers doesn't make the US any more trustable. > > We'll leave out insanities like Bush's "It is not in the US interest to > reduce pollution." > > Apparently he thinks they have too many coastal cities. Like all "leaders", Bush is an imperfect representative of the interests of those who put him into and sustain his power. For resistance to his plans for Iraq from conservative/libertarian quarters, see http://www.iraqwar.org/ -- ###### Message-ID: <3D52E8A6.8050201@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 58 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:57:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028843843 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:57:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:57:23 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113704 On 8/8/02 1:32 PM, Adam Canning wrote: > In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >>In article , >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >> >>>"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message >>>news:lYq49.38565$sA3.11788@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... >>> >>>[SNIP] >>> >>> >>>>See my other post, there are many complexities. The short >>>>answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" >>>>even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no >>>>question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels >>>>(i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of >>>>oil wells, etc.) >>> >>>You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >>>sonny, it's very thin. :) >>> >>>I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >>>seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >>>know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>>reduced consumption of such fuels. >>> >>>On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >>>with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >>>front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >>>or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >>>purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>>US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>>sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>>friendship. >>> >>>My personal feeling is that the US.Gov is doing it's citizens >>>a grave dis-service at present. >> >>The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third >>world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so >>much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop >>so that those third world economies get through their high >>pollution phase quickly. > > > The only counties the Kyoto acord said could produce more pollution were > Australia, Iceland and Norway. And that was because they had already > overshot the amount of reduction they needed to do. > > Of course if you count them as third world, there is little hope for a > rational understanding of geopolitics from you. I think you can safely drop the antecedent. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D52E90F.6010609@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 21:59:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028843948 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:59:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:59:08 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113715 On 8/8/02 1:44 PM, Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > In article , > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > >>I do >>know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>reduced consumption of such fuels. >> > > >>By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>friendship. > > > There's a big difference betwean breaking a treaty and refusing to > ratify it . . . Not in terms of "loss of trust and friendship", especially when you do one of each. And not specifically in light of the Kyoto process. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D52ECB6.1020308@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <3D524A3F.1090109@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 64 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:14:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028844883 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:14:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:14:43 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113721 On 8/8/02 2:14 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Jim Balter" wrote: > >>On 8/8/02 2:27 AM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: >> >>>Oil is one of those nominally non-renewable resources >>>that is rather tricky to estimate because like so much >>>else oil is really *produced*. When one says "there is >>>thus and such amount of oil" most often what they are >>>really saying is that there is thus and such amount of >>>oil in known reserves extractable using current methods. >>>Because the ability to find new reserves, the ability to >>>exploit new reserves, and the ability to more thoroughly >>>exploit reserves improves with time, it becomes rather >>>difficult to estimate how much oil is "available". The >>>truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum >>>that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is >>>to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total >>>amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and >>>certainly more than the US has used). And, again, the >>>US may use quite a lot of the world's oil supply but in >>>so doing it also pays for the "production" of that oil >>>through oil rigs, refineries, etc. It would be vastly >>>untrue and disingenuous to state that the US consumed >>>"more than its fair share" of oil "resources" since the >>>US has not yet used up 6% of the world's oil. >> >>Talk about disengenuous! If every nation had used up >>the same percentage of the world's oil as their >>percentage of the population, there would be no oil left. >>Since that isn't the case, whether or not the U.S. has used >>up 6% of the world's oil has no bearing on whether it >>has used more than it's fair share. Sheesh. > > > How so? Using up "our fair percentage" of the world's > oil would be our problem, not the world's. We haven't > done that yet so it's completely disingenuous to talk > about the US using "more than it's fair share". What's totally disingenuous is to suggest that one can't talk about using more than one's fair share until the resource is exhausted. Sheesh. Imagine two people in a space shuttle with a limited amount of air (recent Enterprise episode), and one starts yelling, screaming, running around and burning candles. The other complains and the first retorts "What's you beef? I haven't used up half the air yet!" > There > is still plenty of oil left in the ground for the rest > of the world to use as much oil per capita as the US > has. Which is a strawman. > And, when the oil does run out we can always burn your > strawmen, you seem to have a plentiful supply. None that you have identified, Mr. ad hominem. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:16:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028845004 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:16:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:16:44 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113640 On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > >>You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >>sonny, it's very thin. :) >> >>I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >>seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >>know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>reduced consumption of such fuels. >> >>On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >>with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >>front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >>or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >>purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>friendship. > > > Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. > First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the > ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions > of "international law" rattling around in your head you > can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt > object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not > bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" > the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing > from the treaty was built into it and was properly > followed. > > I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository > before you speak on these topics in the future. Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism rots the brain. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D52EF7B.9070400@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> <3D52E16C.9060608@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 59 Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:26:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028845592 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:26:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:26:32 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113738 On 8/8/02 2:39 PM, Terry Austin wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > >>On 8/8/02 10:07 AM, Terry Austin wrote: >> >>>Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT >>>>"Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >>>> >>>>CMJ> The >>>>CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum >>>>CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is >>>>CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total >>>>CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and >>>> >>>>Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource >>>>that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so there's >>>>no problem with this rate of use ? >>> >>> >>>He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the >>>amount that exist were millions of times as much >>>as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. >>> >>>Try to pay attention. >> >>Well, someone needs to pay attention. What CMJ wrote >>is equivalent to "It's enormously likely that we've >>used less than half" and SOHS responded "And you think >>that makes it ok?" > > > That is correct. And SOHS asked that without > first determining precisely what the CMJ meant. > It is not possible to meaningfully answer the question > without knowing if "less than half" means "just less > than half," or "a whole lot less than half," since that > may well produce different answers. .00001% is > less than half, after all. You're transparently backpedalling. SOHS paid enough attention to know that CMJ's "statement would be true if the amount that exist were millions of times as much as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more." >>Sheesh. > > Indeed. I'm glad you agree. I've recently read the 1997 "Terry Austin" thread in rec.games.frp.misc, so I know this is all a game to you, and part of the game is trotting out whatever rhetorical device suits your purposes regardless of its validity. -- ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:15:40 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> <3D52E16C.9060608@exodus.nospam> <3D52EF7B.9070400@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-304.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!199.106.71.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113933 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/8/02 2:39 PM, Terry Austin wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>> On 8/8/02 10:07 AM, Terry Austin wrote: >>> >>>> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT >>>>> "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> CMJ> The >>>>> CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum >>>>> CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is >>>>> CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total >>>>> CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and >>>>> >>>>> Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource >>>>> that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so >>>>> there's no problem with this rate of use ? >>>> >>>> >>>> He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the >>>> amount that exist were millions of times as much >>>> as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. >>>> >>>> Try to pay attention. >>> >>> Well, someone needs to pay attention. What CMJ wrote >>> is equivalent to "It's enormously likely that we've >>> used less than half" and SOHS responded "And you think >>> that makes it ok?" >> >> >> That is correct. And SOHS asked that without >> first determining precisely what the CMJ meant. >> It is not possible to meaningfully answer the question >> without knowing if "less than half" means "just less >> than half," or "a whole lot less than half," since that >> may well produce different answers. .00001% is >> less than half, after all. > > You're transparently backpedalling. Not in the least. You're an illiterate moron. > SOHS paid enough > attention to know that CMJ's "statement would be true if the > amount that exist were millions of times as much > as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more." > >>> Sheesh. >> >> Indeed. > > I'm glad you agree. I've recently read the 1997 "Terry Austin" > thread in rec.games.frp.misc, so I know this is all a game > to you, and part of the game is trotting out whatever rhetorical > device suits your purposes regardless of its validity. And yet, you reply anyway. Says more about you than me, doesn't it? Terry Austin ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:16:49 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-327.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!fu-berlin.de!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113929 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: >> "Rupert Pigott" >> wrote: >> >>> You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >>> sonny, it's very thin. :) >>> >>> I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >>> seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >>> know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>> reduced consumption of such fuels. >>> >>> On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >>> with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >>> front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >>> or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >>> purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>> US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>> sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>> friendship. >> >> >> Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. >> First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the >> ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions >> of "international law" rattling around in your head you >> can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt >> object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not >> bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" >> the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing >> from the treaty was built into it and was properly >> followed. >> >> I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository >> before you speak on these topics in the future. > > Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism > rots the brain. Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. Now wipe your chin, son. You're drooling semen. Terry Austin ###### From: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 9 Aug 2002 01:55:49 GMT Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 7 Message-ID: <1028858148.147552@elaine.furryape.com> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-914.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Cache-Post-Path: elaine.furryape.com!unknown@elaine.furryape.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113977 In article <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > Er - the production of oil requires trees, time and pressure >(at least that's how tbe current supply was made). AFAICT the usage rate Actually oil came from plankton. Coal comes from wood. ###### Message-ID: <3D53364F.5070303@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> <3D52E16C.9060608@exodus.nospam> <3D52EF7B.9070400@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 80 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:28:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028863724 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:28:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:28:44 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113676 On 8/8/02 4:15 PM, Terry Austin wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > >>On 8/8/02 2:39 PM, Terry Austin wrote: >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On 8/8/02 10:07 AM, Terry Austin wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT >>>>>>"Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>CMJ> The >>>>>>CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum >>>>>>CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is >>>>>>CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total >>>>>>CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and >>>>>> >>>>>>Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource >>>>>>that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so >>>>>>there's no problem with this rate of use ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the >>>>>amount that exist were millions of times as much >>>>>as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. >>>>> >>>>>Try to pay attention. >>>> >>>>Well, someone needs to pay attention. What CMJ wrote >>>>is equivalent to "It's enormously likely that we've >>>>used less than half" and SOHS responded "And you think >>>>that makes it ok?" >>> >>> >>>That is correct. And SOHS asked that without >>>first determining precisely what the CMJ meant. >>>It is not possible to meaningfully answer the question >>>without knowing if "less than half" means "just less >>>than half," or "a whole lot less than half," since that >>>may well produce different answers. .00001% is >>>less than half, after all. >> >>You're transparently backpedalling. > > > Not in the least. You're an illiterate moron. Sigh. I actually expected better of you. >>SOHS paid enough >>attention to know that CMJ's "statement would be true if the >>amount that exist were millions of times as much >>as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more." >> >> >>>>Sheesh. >>> >>>Indeed. >> >>I'm glad you agree. I've recently read the 1997 "Terry Austin" >>thread in rec.games.frp.misc, so I know this is all a game >>to you, and part of the game is trotting out whatever rhetorical >>device suits your purposes regardless of its validity. > > > And yet, you reply anyway. Says more about you than me, > doesn't it? Not in any interesting sense. -- ###### Message-ID: <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 03:31:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028863881 68.6.38.179 (Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:31:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 23:31:21 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113686 On 8/8/02 4:16 PM, Terry Austin wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > >>On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: >> >>>"Rupert Pigott" >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>>>You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >>>>sonny, it's very thin. :) >>>> >>>>I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >>>>seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >>>>know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>>>reduced consumption of such fuels. >>>> >>>>On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >>>>with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >>>>front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >>>>or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >>>>purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>>>US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>>>sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>>>friendship. >>> >>> >>>Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. >>>First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the >>>ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions >>>of "international law" rattling around in your head you >>>can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt >>>object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not >>>bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" >>>the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing >>>from the treaty was built into it and was properly >>>followed. >>> >>>I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository >>>before you speak on these topics in the future. >> >>Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism >>rots the brain. > > > Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. Not on Rupert Pigott having demonstrated himself to be an idiot. > Now wipe your chin, son. You're drooling semen. I'm not, actually. You cheapen the currency of your own words. -- ###### Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:38:15 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Message-ID: <20020809063815.4c4ca59f.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> <1028858148.147552@elaine.furryape.com> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 09 Aug 2002 05:33:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p1214.dial.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=7_40KbbGaZ1i06Uml23n==1`\LnN2UYY1SLDTg=]d^n;SRlY3610al6VR@:`e581W8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!newshub1.nl.home.com!news.nl.home.com!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114080 On 9 Aug 2002 01:55:49 GMT gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) wrote: AB> In article <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net>, AB> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: AB> > Er - the production of oil requires trees, time and pressure AB> >(at least that's how tbe current supply was made). AFAICT the usage AB> >rate AB> AB> Actually oil came from plankton. Coal comes from wood. I stand corrected - the time and pressure requirements remain though. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3d4fdc8c$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> From: Dowe Keller Date: 08 Aug 2002 22:36:36 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.218.225 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.218.225 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1028868755 206.169.218.225 (8 Aug 2002 21:52:35 -0700) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113850 lawrence@c896388-c.attbi.com (Lawrence Statton N1GAK/XE2) writes: > [1] Wild Kingdom was a terrific nature television program, with the > host and his team of helicopter piloting eco-commandos whizzing off to > Africa, or Alaska, or other equally exotic places, whereupon they > would shoot various large animals with tranquilizer darts for the > purpose of relocating them, or studying them, or whatever. I always > assumed they just really got off on shooting things with darts. I believe that you are probably right, as I haven't seen any of the newer wildlife shows with the same volume of shoot the wilderbeast themed episodes. BTW, what was the host's name again? -- dowe@sierratel.com There are no threads in a.b.p.erotica, so there's no gain in using a threaded news reader. (Unknown source) ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:14:45 +0100 Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-504.buffalo.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 1028881625 21213 217.134.65.248 (9 Aug 2002 08:27:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2002 08:27:05 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!zen.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114011 "Terry Austin" wrote in message news:aiuu500ghf@enews1.newsguy.com... > Jim Balter wrote: > > On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: [SNIP] > >> Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. > >> First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the > >> ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions > >> of "international law" rattling around in your head you > >> can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt > >> object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not > >> bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" > >> the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing > >> from the treaty was built into it and was properly > >> followed. > >> > >> I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository > >> before you speak on these topics in the future. > > > > Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism > > rots the brain. > > Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. www.dictionary.com : "trea·ty Pronunciation Key (trt) n. pl. trea·ties A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to terms of peace or trade. The document in which such an agreement is set down. A contract or agreement." So, no, he wasn't correct at all. I refrained from digging up a dictionary definition because he was so obviously wrong. > Now wipe your chin, son. You're drooling semen. I am aware that educational standards are falling and that children now have access to the internet, but common manners and reading comprehension are still expected in some groups. As it happens I did in fact compose a response which I intended to email to Mr Jones so as to spare this group more unpleasant and very OT banter. Not much point in sending email to a guy who is unwilling to find an online dictionary, let alone use it. You'll all be glad to hear that's my last contribution to this miserable, futile and terminally dull thread. HITLER HITLER HITLER. > Terry Austin Houston : I think we have a plonker. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3D5380DF.1010606@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:46:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028882812 68.6.38.179 (Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:46:52 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 04:46:52 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!easynet-quince!easynet.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113694 On 8/8/02 11:14 PM, Rupert Pigott wrote: > HITLER HITLER HITLER. Unfortunately, there's a corollary to Godwin's Law that says that it doesn't apply to intentional invocation. -- ###### From: "Christopher M. Jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.229.240.155 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1028883615 12.229.240.155 (Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:00:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:00:15 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:00:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113631 "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > "Terry Austin" wrote in message > news:aiuu500ghf@enews1.newsguy.com... > > Jim Balter wrote: > > > Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism > > > rots the brain. > > > > Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. > > www.dictionary.com : > "trea·ty Pronunciation Key (trt) > n. pl. trea·ties > > A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to > terms of peace or trade. The document in which such an agreement > is set down. A contract or agreement." > > So, no, he wasn't correct at all. I refrained from digging up > a dictionary definition because he was so obviously wrong. The subject is law not etymology. In no sovereign nation (by definition) does an unratified treaty have the force of law within that country. Furthermore, treaties can, and have been, repealed in the same manner (with varying details depending on the specific structure of government) as laws are repealed. In the United States, for example, treaties can be abandoned by the executive branch. And, as it turns out, the issue is entirely moot on the two treaties mentioned. For the one, Kyoto, the US never ratified, for the other, ABM, the provisions necessary to back out of the treaty were specifically built into it (and they have been followed, FYI the time period specified has elapsed and the US is no longer bound by the ABM). A treaty is in many ways like a very weak form of marriage. No party has the ability to bind the other party, it is each party that voluntarily binds itself, and each party has the ability to unbind itself. > As it happens I did in fact compose a response which I intended > to email to Mr Jones so as to spare this group more unpleasant > and very OT banter. Not much point in sending email to a guy > who is unwilling to find an online dictionary, let alone use it. See above re: etymology and law. Please acquire a clue before you continue humiliating yourself. -- Have you got anything without spam? ###### Message-ID: <3D538883.9060703@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 44 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:19:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028884768 68.6.38.179 (Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:19:28 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:19:28 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113669 On 8/9/02 2:00 AM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Rupert Pigott" wrote:= >=20 >>"Terry Austin" wrote in message >>news:aiuu500ghf@enews1.newsguy.com... >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>>>Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism >>>>rots the brain. >>> >>>Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. >> >>www.dictionary.com : >>"trea=B7ty Pronunciation Key (trt) >>n. pl. trea=B7ties >> >>A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to >>terms of peace or trade. The document in which such an agreement >>is set down. A contract or agreement." >> >>So, no, he wasn't correct at all. I refrained from digging up >>a dictionary definition because he was so obviously wrong. >=20 >=20 > The subject is law not etymology. Well at least you're consistent in your approach toward the meanings of words: et=B7y=B7mol=B7o=B7gy (t-ml-j) n. pl. et=B7y=B7mol=B7o=B7gies 1. The origin and historical development of a linguistic form as show= n by determining its basic elements, earliest known use, and changes in f= orm and meaning, tracing its transmission from one language to another, i= dentifying its cognates in other languages, and reconstructing its ancest= ral form where possible. 2. The branch of linguistics that deals with etymologies. --=20 ###### Message-ID: <3D538BBC.2030405@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 58 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:33:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028885593 68.6.38.179 (Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:33:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 05:33:13 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113720 On 8/9/02 2:00 AM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > "Rupert Pigott" wrote:= >=20 >>"Terry Austin" wrote in message >>news:aiuu500ghf@enews1.newsguy.com... >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>>>Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism >>>>rots the brain. >>> >>>Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. >> >>www.dictionary.com : >>"trea=B7ty Pronunciation Key (trt) >>n. pl. trea=B7ties >> >>A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to >>terms of peace or trade. The document in which such an agreement >>is set down. A contract or agreement." >> >>So, no, he wasn't correct at all. I refrained from digging up >>a dictionary definition because he was so obviously wrong. >=20 >=20 > The subject is law not etymology. To recap: Jones: > >> Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. > >> First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the > >> ratifying country, nothing more. Pigott: >>So, no, he wasn't correct at all. Neither about what a treaty "is *only*", nor about what "etymology" means, nor about who is, or at least is acting like, an idiot. The statement Jones flamed was > By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the > US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which > sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and > friendship. which is about neither law nor "etymology" nor the public meanings of words such as "treaty", but rather about international relations and diplomacy. > Please acquire a clue before you continue humiliating yourself. Thank you for playing. --=20 ###### Reply-To: "Paul Austin" From: "Paul Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 102 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <9XN49.13324$lP6.1277479@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:45:09 EDT Organization: WEBUSENET.com Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:49:13 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114179 "Jonathan Hendry" wrote > > "Adam Canning" wrote in message > > In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > > > > The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > > > world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > > > much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > > > so that those third world economies get through their high > > > pollution phase quickly. > > > > The only counties the Kyoto acord said could produce more pollution were > > Australia, Iceland and Norway. And that was because they had already > > overshot the amount of reduction they needed to do. > > > > Of course if you count them as third world, there is little hope for a > > rational understanding of geopolitics from you. Wrong. Here are the emission limits from Kyoto-97 Quantified emission limitation or reduction commitment (percentage of base year or period) Australia 108 Austria 92 Belgium 92 Bulgaria* 92 Canada 94 Croatia* 95 Czech Republic* 92 Denmark 92 Estonia* 92 European Community 92 Finland 92 France 92 Germany 92 Greece 92 Hungary* 94 Iceland 110 Ireland 92 Italy 92 Japan 94 Latvia* 92 Liechtenstein 92 Lithuania* 92 Luxembourg 92 Monaco 92 Netherlands 92 New Zealand 100 Norway 101 Poland* 94 Portugal 92 Romania* 92 Russian Federation* 100 Slovakia* 92 Slovenia* 92 Spain 92 Sweden 92 Switzerland 92 Ukraine* 100 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 92 United States of America 93 If you're clever, you'll notice the absence of such small countries as China, India, Indonesia and Malaysia > > Also, much of that third-world production *is* for American > companies... Wrong again. In 1999 US exports are 7.6% of GDP Japan exports are 9.6% of GDP Germany exports are 25.6% of GDP UK exports are18% of GDP France exports are 21% of GDP Indian exports are 8.1% of GDP China: exports are 20% of GDP The only countries whose exports are even a third of GDP are relatively small ones (with the exception of Indonesia) As for who _imports_ stuff, the US imports are 15% of GDP, with Canada, Mexico and Japan being the three largest exporters to the US. The US imports total 17% of world imports. So "much" must mean "little". And not much from "third-world production". In return, we export 13% of world exports, so downtrodden American workers must be exploited by all those furriners. -- "To forgive and forget is to surrender dearly bought experience" Paul F Austin pfaustin@bellsouth.net ###### From: Adam Canning Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:42:08 +0100 Organization: Home Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.23.36 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1028904855 41309416 212.159.23.36 (16 [42006]) X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.60 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.23.36!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114094 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > In article , > Adam Canning wrote: > >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >> In article , > >> "Rupert Pigott" > wrote: > >> >"Christopher M. Jones" wrote in message > >> >news:lYq49.38565$sA3.11788@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net... > >> > > >> >[SNIP] > >> > > >> >> See my other post, there are many complexities. The short > >> >> answer is yes. Fossil fuels are in many ways "produced" > >> >> even though they are non-renewable. And there can be no > >> >> question that the US pays for production of fossil fuels > >> >> (i.e. the US buys oil and thus pays for development of > >> >> oil wells, etc.) > >> > > >> >You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard > >> >sonny, it's very thin. :) > >> > > >> >I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even > >> >seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do > >> >know that the US has broken one treaty that may require > >> >reduced consumption of such fuels. > >> > > >> >On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited > >> >with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that > >> >front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic > >> >or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic > >> >purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the > >> >US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which > >> >sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and > >> >friendship. > >> > > >> >My personal feeling is that the US.Gov is doing it's citizens > >> >a grave dis-service at present. > >> > >> The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > >> world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > >> much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > >> so that those third world economies get through their high > >> pollution phase quickly. > > > >The only counties the Kyoto acord said could produce more pollution were > >Australia, Iceland and Norway. > > That is based on the accord's flavor of calculations. Which the American delegates helped write. The ones where they said they could hit 93% [because managing to reach the same levels of reduction as the EU and Warsaw Pact was politically unacceptable.]. The treaty also commits [and my understanding is this is also a US sticking point] the signatories to do all they can to ensure a similar global agreement. Going through the entire process of negotiating an International rtreaty and then walking off and saying its too expensive so we shan't isn't a way to make friends. Especially when the main reason given is ur Industries are used to wrecking the enviroment and cna't compete with the rest of the civilised world if asked to cut back. > > ..And that was because they had already > >overshot the amount of reduction they needed to do. > > > >Of course if you count them as third world, there is little hope for a > >rational understanding of geopolitics from you. > > WEre you determined to misread what I was talking about or did > I really mess up the meaning? I was not talking about politics; > I was talking about slavery (a.k.a. welfare). International Trade is politics. Slavery is not also known as welfare. You appeared to be arguing that the US should pollute more. When its already responsible for a large fraction of the worlds pollution already. -- Adam Once you have pulled the pin, Mr Nova Bomb is no longer your friend. ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:12:07 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-211.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113927 Adam Canning wrote: > > Going through the entire process of negotiating an International > rtreaty and then walking off and saying its too expensive so we > shan't isn't a way to make friends. Especially when the main reason > given is ur Industries are used to wrecking the enviroment and cna't > compete with the rest of the civilised world if asked to cut back. I'd like to see a cite on that quote, or an admission you made it up and are a liar. Terry Austin ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:38:48 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-563.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113913 Rupert Pigott wrote: > "Terry Austin" wrote in message > news:aiuu500ghf@enews1.newsguy.com... >> Jim Balter wrote: >>> On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: > > [SNIP] > >>>> Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. >>>> First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the >>>> ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions >>>> of "international law" rattling around in your head you >>>> can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt >>>> object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not >>>> bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" >>>> the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing >>>> from the treaty was built into it and was properly >>>> followed. >>>> >>>> I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository >>>> before you speak on these topics in the future. >>> >>> Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism >>> rots the brain. >> >> Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. > > www.dictionary.com : > "trea·ty Pronunciation Key (trt) > n. pl. trea·ties > > A formal agreement between two or more states, as in reference to > terms of peace or trade. The document in which such an agreement > is set down. A contract or agreement." > > So, no, he wasn't correct at all. I refrained from digging up > a dictionary definition because he was so obviously wrong. Demonstrate that the US government formally agreed to Kyoto. Remember, the Constitution specifies that *only* the Senate can enter in to a formal treaty. They haven't. He was correct. The ABM treaty was entered into properly, and withdrawn from using the provisions for withdrawal _in the treaty_. If you think that scrupulously following the provisions of a treaty are "breaking" it, you are a mental retard. > >> Now wipe your chin, son. You're drooling semen. > > I am aware that educational standards are falling and that children > now have access to the internet, but common manners and reading > comprehension are still expected in some groups. Only by retards. That's you, son. Welcome to Usenet. > > As it happens I did in fact compose a response which I intended > to email to Mr Jones so as to spare this group more unpleasant > and very OT banter. Not much point in sending email to a guy > who is unwilling to find an online dictionary, let alone use it. > > You'll all be glad to hear that's my last contribution to this > miserable, futile and terminally dull thread. Good riddance, 'tard-boy. Terry Austin ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:53:30 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-929.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113945 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/8/02 4:16 PM, Terry Austin wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>> On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: >>> >>>> "Rupert Pigott" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >>>>> sonny, it's very thin. :) >>>>> >>>>> I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >>>>> seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >>>>> know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>>>> reduced consumption of such fuels. >>>>> >>>>> On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >>>>> with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >>>>> front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >>>>> or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >>>>> purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>>>> US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>>>> sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>>>> friendship. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. >>>> First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the >>>> ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions >>>> of "international law" rattling around in your head you >>>> can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt >>>> object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not >>>> bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" >>>> the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing >>>> from the treaty was built into it and was properly >>>> followed. >>>> >>>> I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository >>>> before you speak on these topics in the future. >>> >>> Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism >>> rots the brain. >> >> >> Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. > > Not on Rupert Pigott having demonstrated himself to be an idiot. Anybody who posts to Usenet with a name like "Pigott" - even if it's his real name - is, by defintion, an idiot. > >> Now wipe your chin, son. You're drooling semen. > > I'm not, actually. You are, actually. >You cheapen the currency of your own words. That's why I offer so many of them. What's your excuse? Terry Austin ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:54:17 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 86 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk><3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam><3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com><3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid><3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam><3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam><030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk><3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam><3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net><3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam><3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com><3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam><3D50C3A0.9050709@exodus.nospam> <20020808184540.3183d24f.steveo@eircom.net> <3D52E16C.9060608@exodus.nospam> <3D52EF7B.9070400@exodus.nospam> <3D53364F.5070303@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-934.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113948 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/8/02 4:15 PM, Terry Austin wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>> On 8/8/02 2:39 PM, Terry Austin wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Balter wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 8/8/02 10:07 AM, Terry Austin wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, 08 Aug 2002 09:27:36 GMT >>>>>>> "Christopher M. Jones" wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CMJ> The >>>>>>> CMJ> truth is enormously likely that the amount of petroleum >>>>>>> CMJ> that exists (assuming magical move it from where it is >>>>>>> CMJ> to a storage tank technology) actually exceeds the total >>>>>>> CMJ> amount of petroleum the world has used to date (and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm - so you think we are not quite half way through a resource >>>>>>> that was several tens of millions of years in preparation so >>>>>>> there's no problem with this rate of use ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> He didn't say that. His statement would be true if the >>>>>> amount that exist were millions of times as much >>>>>> as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more. >>>>>> >>>>>> Try to pay attention. >>>>> >>>>> Well, someone needs to pay attention. What CMJ wrote >>>>> is equivalent to "It's enormously likely that we've >>>>> used less than half" and SOHS responded "And you think >>>>> that makes it ok?" >>>> >>>> >>>> That is correct. And SOHS asked that without >>>> first determining precisely what the CMJ meant. >>>> It is not possible to meaningfully answer the question >>>> without knowing if "less than half" means "just less >>>> than half," or "a whole lot less than half," since that >>>> may well produce different answers. .00001% is >>>> less than half, after all. >>> >>> You're transparently backpedalling. >> >> >> Not in the least. You're an illiterate moron. > > Sigh. I actually expected better of you. I've already agreed you're a moron. You don't have to keep proving it. > >>> SOHS paid enough >>> attention to know that CMJ's "statement would be true if the >>> amount that exist were millions of times as much >>> as has been used. Or if it were one ounce more." >>> >>> >>>>> Sheesh. >>>> >>>> Indeed. >>> >>> I'm glad you agree. I've recently read the 1997 "Terry Austin" >>> thread in rec.games.frp.misc, so I know this is all a game >>> to you, and part of the game is trotting out whatever rhetorical >>> device suits your purposes regardless of its validity. >> >> >> And yet, you reply anyway. Says more about you than me, >> doesn't it? > > Not in any interesting sense. You wish. Terry Austin ###### Reply-To: "Paul Austin" From: "Paul Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:18:28 EDT Organization: WEBUSENET.com Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:16:45 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114159 "Rupert Pigott" wrote > wrote > > [SNIP] > > > The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > > world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > > much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > > so that those third world economies get through their high > > pollution phase quickly. > > Err, I don't exactly see how you drew the conclusion > that you had to hobble production... Pollution controls > != hobbling production. Furthermore a huge amount of > "production" is actually done in the 3rd world anyways. Actually, your wrong about both of your points. First, to comply with the Kyoto-97 accord today would require a 50% decrease in greenhouse gas emissions with permanent caps on any further growth in emissions. There is _no_ way to cut production of greenhouse gases by that much in the short term without a similar cut in GDP. In the _long_ run, since Kyoto explicitly excluded from decreases in greenhouse gases any shift to fission reactor-produced power, there's no way to reduce either fixed generation or vehicle greenhouse gas production on the scale required without direct cuts in GDP. And as far as 'a huge amount of "production" is actually done in the 3rd world anyways', US imports as a net of GDP is 8%. "Huge" huh? -- "To forgive and forget is to surrender dearly bought experience" Paul F Austin pfaustin@bellsouth.net ###### Message-ID: <3D53FA4D.2050003@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 79 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 17:24:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028913898 68.6.38.179 (Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:24:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:24:58 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113714 On 8/9/02 8:53 AM, Terry Austin wrote: > Jim Balter wrote: > >>On 8/8/02 4:16 PM, Terry Austin wrote: >> >>>Jim Balter wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>"Rupert Pigott" >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >>>>>>sonny, it's very thin. :) >>>>>> >>>>>>I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >>>>>>seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >>>>>>know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>>>>>reduced consumption of such fuels. >>>>>> >>>>>>On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >>>>>>with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >>>>>>front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >>>>>>or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >>>>>>purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>>>>>US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>>>>>sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>>>>>friendship. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. >>>>>First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the >>>>>ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions >>>>>of "international law" rattling around in your head you >>>>>can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt >>>>>object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not >>>>>bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" >>>>>the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing >>>>>from the treaty was built into it and was properly >>>>>followed. >>>>> >>>>>I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository >>>>>before you speak on these topics in the future. >>>> >>>>Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism >>>>rots the brain. >>> >>> >>>Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. >> >>Not on Rupert Pigott having demonstrated himself to be an idiot. > > > Anybody who posts to Usenet with a name like "Pigott" - even if > it's his real name - is, by defintion, an idiot. > >>>Now wipe your chin, son. You're drooling semen. >> >>I'm not, actually. > > > You are, actually. > > >>You cheapen the currency of your own words. > > > That's why I offer so many of them. What's your excuse? My excuse is that mine are actually worth something, you "semen" "drooling" "idiot" "retard". -- ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:30:33 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 83 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> <3D53FA4D.2050003@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-776.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113910 Jim Balter wrote: > On 8/9/02 8:53 AM, Terry Austin wrote: >> Jim Balter wrote: >> >>> On 8/8/02 4:16 PM, Terry Austin wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Balter wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 8/8/02 2:19 PM, Christopher M. Jones wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "Rupert Pigott" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> You don't want to jump up and down on that ice too hard >>>>>>> sonny, it's very thin. :) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I keep seeing those 25% figures bandied around and have even >>>>>>> seen them bandied around for fossil fuel consumption. I do >>>>>>> know that the US has broken one treaty that may require >>>>>>> reduced consumption of such fuels. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the subject of treaties I have been quite disappoited >>>>>>> with the rather cavallier attitude of the Bush admin on that >>>>>>> front. Sure the treaties in question might be shambolic >>>>>>> or irrelevant, but they do happen to serve a symbolic >>>>>>> purpose too. By tearing up Kyoto and the ABM treaties the >>>>>>> US is saying "We're not doing deals with anyone", which >>>>>>> sucks quite frankly. The net result is a loss of trust and >>>>>>> friendship. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you so much for demonstrated that you are an idiot. >>>>>> First and formost, a treaty is *only* a law passed by the >>>>>> ratifying country, nothing more. If you have any notions >>>>>> of "international law" rattling around in your head you >>>>>> can smack them out of your fool head with a heavy blunt >>>>>> object. The US has never ratified Kyoto so we are not >>>>>> bound by it. Thus, it is impossible for the US to "break" >>>>>> the Kyoto treaty. As for ABM, the process for withdrawing >>>>>> from the treaty was built into it and was properly >>>>>> followed. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suggest you acquire a clue at the nearest clue depository >>>>>> before you speak on these topics in the future. >>>>> >>>>> Mr. Jones is yet another demonstration that American chauvinism >>>>> rots the brain. >>>> >>>> >>>> Other than the fact that he's correct on every point. >>> >>> Not on Rupert Pigott having demonstrated himself to be an idiot. >> >> >> Anybody who posts to Usenet with a name like "Pigott" - even if >> it's his real name - is, by defintion, an idiot. >> >>>> Now wipe your chin, son. You're drooling semen. >>> >>> I'm not, actually. >> >> >> You are, actually. >> >> >>> You cheapen the currency of your own words. >> >> >> That's why I offer so many of them. What's your excuse? > > My excuse is that mine are actually worth something, > you "semen" "drooling" "idiot" "retard". That looks, to me, like an admission that you know you're wrong. Terry Austin ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:34:27 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> <823.986T565T6163598@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-196.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113932 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article taustin@hyperbooks.com > (Terry Austin) writes: > >> Anybody who posts to Usenet with a name like "Pigott" - even if >> it's his real name - is, by defintion, an idiot. > > You know, Jim Balter's style might be somewhat abrasive, but at > least he has intelligent things to say. Really? Then why doesn't he say them? >You, on the other hand, > are merely abrasive. I'm an asshole. Get over it. I have not tolerance for idiots. >I don't know whether insulting people is > the only way you can find some sense of self-worth, or you really > think that this is the way to bring others to The Light. But > either way, your postings remain content-free. And your above > quote goes way over the line. You're just jealous that you know I'd paste your ass if you tried. > > So long, you pathetic little man. > > *plonk* Good riddance, loser. Terry Austin ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:58:27 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-Trace: betanews.demon.co.uk 1028919604 18869 193.237.4.110 (9 Aug 2002 19:00:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:00:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!betanews.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113760 According to Terry Austin : ... more abrasive drivel ... Sigh, not another one. *plonk* Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc http://www.paunix.org SDF Public Access UNIX: UNIX accounts and webspace! ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 13:04:54 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-396.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113916 Chris Hedley wrote: > According to Terry Austin : > ... more abrasive drivel ... > > Sigh, not another one. *plonk* > Good riddance, punk. Terry Austin ###### Message-ID: <3D542AFF.B82431FB@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> <823.986T565T6163598@kltpzyxm.invalid> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 21:04:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.197 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1028927089 12.90.167.197 (Fri, 09 Aug 2002 21:04:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 21:04:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113577 Terry Austin wrote: > Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > (Terry Austin) writes: > > > >> Anybody who posts to Usenet with a name like "Pigott" - even if > >> it's his real name - is, by defintion, an idiot. > > > > You know, Jim Balter's style might be somewhat abrasive, but at > > least he has intelligent things to say. > > Really? Then why doesn't he say them? > > >You, on the other hand, > > are merely abrasive. > > I'm an asshole. Get over it. I have not tolerance for idiots. > > >I don't know whether insulting people is > > the only way you can find some sense of self-worth, or you really > > think that this is the way to bring others to The Light. But > > either way, your postings remain content-free. And your above > > quote goes way over the line. > > You're just jealous that you know I'd paste your ass if you > tried. > > > > So long, you pathetic little man. > > > > *plonk* > > Good riddance, loser. Can't you children take a.f.c off the distribution list for your foolish flamewar? -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:20:12 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <3D52ED30.80307@exodus.nospam> <3D5336EC.6010102@exodus.nospam> <823.986T565T6163598@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D542AFF.B82431FB@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-835.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113976 CBFalconer wrote: > Terry Austin wrote: >> Charlie Gibbs wrote: >>> (Terry Austin) writes: >>> >>>> Anybody who posts to Usenet with a name like "Pigott" - even if >>>> it's his real name - is, by defintion, an idiot. >>> >>> You know, Jim Balter's style might be somewhat abrasive, but at >>> least he has intelligent things to say. >> >> Really? Then why doesn't he say them? >> >>> You, on the other hand, >>> are merely abrasive. >> >> I'm an asshole. Get over it. I have not tolerance for idiots. >> >>> I don't know whether insulting people is >>> the only way you can find some sense of self-worth, or you really >>> think that this is the way to bring others to The Light. But >>> either way, your postings remain content-free. And your above >>> quote goes way over the line. >> >> You're just jealous that you know I'd paste your ass if you >> tried. >>> >>> So long, you pathetic little man. >>> >>> *plonk* >> >> Good riddance, loser. > > Can't you children take a.f.c off the distribution list for your > foolish flamewar? No. Terry Austin ###### From: proto@panix.com (Walter Bushell) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:59:14 -0400 Organization: Adamentine Wrecking Co. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1fgmayz.1mjye3d17ovybeN%proto@panix.com> References: <369c3027.0207110914.2473e4a@posting.google.com> <3D36E391.F78B73D0@irtc.net> <3D37AF17.1115@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> <20020720095515.160d87f8.steveo@eircom.net> <3D39B060.6847D2F4@alcyone.com> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: proto.dialup.access.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: reader2.panix.com 1028930391 27582 166.84.199.79 (9 Aug 2002 21:59:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:59:51 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!jfk3-feed1.news.algx.net!allegiance!panix!proto Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114139 Andreas Långström wrote: > Dowe Keller wrote: > > > > I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to > >put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. > > > >I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know that > >wild animals can be a bit untame at times. > > Darwin at work... Speaking of which there was a man killed last week in ÑYC by lightning, dancing on top of a building during a thunderstorm. > > /Andreas -- Reality has been corrupted. Please insert new system disk. Walter ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:05:54 +0100 Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-1335.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 1028930409 27022 217.134.21.55 (9 Aug 2002 22:00:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2002 22:00:09 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113974 "Paul Austin" wrote in message news:oXR49.22115$Z7.2307553@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com... > > "Rupert Pigott" wrote > > wrote > > > > [SNIP] > > > > > The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > > > world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > > > much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > > > so that those third world economies get through their high > > > pollution phase quickly. > > > > Err, I don't exactly see how you drew the conclusion > > that you had to hobble production... Pollution controls > > != hobbling production. Furthermore a huge amount of > > "production" is actually done in the 3rd world anyways. > > Actually, your wrong about both of your points. > > First, to comply with the Kyoto-97 accord today would require a 50% > decrease in greenhouse gas emissions with permanent caps on any > further growth in emissions. There is _no_ way to cut production of > greenhouse gases by that much in the short term without a similar cut > in GDP. In the _long_ run, since Kyoto explicitly excluded from > decreases in greenhouse gases any shift to fission reactor-produced > power, there's no way to reduce either fixed generation or vehicle > greenhouse gas production on the scale required without direct cuts in > GDP. > > And as far as 'a huge amount of "production" is actually done in the > 3rd world anyways', US imports as a net of GDP is 8%. "Huge" huh? OK. How about you remove anything which has a "Made in China/Malaysia/ Taiwan/Indonesia/..." stamp on it from your inventory ? In terms of possession count I suspect you would notice a significant chunk missing. In case you haven't noticed : There is more to the world than Money. From that you can deduce that not everything can be expressed in purely fiscal terms. After all you don't drive a wad of greenbacks to work, you don't eat greenbacks (unless you're trying to disprove a USENET point) and you don't fill your car with greenbacks at the filling station (unless you are robbing it). Measuring everything by money seems to be a common error, and one which does not guarantee correct or meaningful answers. I pity people who can't see beyond money, they miss out on a lot of valuable things. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Terry Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:16:58 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-853.newsdawg.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!216.148.52.16!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113923 Rupert Pigott wrote: > I pity people who can't see beyond money, they miss out on a lot > of valuable things. > I'd pity people who can't see the financial costs, no matter how high, of anything they want, but I'm far too busy laughing at how stupid they are. Terry Austin ###### Message-ID: <3D545010.8030305@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <369c3027.0207110914.2473e4a@posting.google.com> <3D36E391.F78B73D0@irtc.net> <3D37AF17.1115@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> <20020720095515.160d87f8.steveo@eircom.net> <3D39B060.6847D2F4@alcyone.com> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <1fgmayz.1mjye3d17ovybeN%proto@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 28 Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 23:30:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1028935855 68.6.38.179 (Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:30:55 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:30:55 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113649 On 8/9/02 2:59 PM, Walter Bushell wrote: > Andreas L=E5ngstr=F6m wrote: >=20 >=20 >>Dowe Keller wrote: >> >>> I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to >>>put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. >>> >>>I don't know what is wrong with some people, they should know that >>>wild animals can be a bit untame at times. >> >>Darwin at work... >=20 >=20 > Speaking of which there was a man killed last week in =D1YC by lightnin= g, > dancing on top of a building during a thunderstorm. Did he have surviving children? Of course, even if he didn't, this still isn't Darwin at work, because such behaviors are learned (or result from lack of learning), or drug induced. --=20 ###### From: Robert Sneddon Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers,rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:56:30 +0100 Organization: Disorganisation Lines: 10 Message-ID: <$i+bysAuaFV9Ewwz@nojay.fsnet.co.uk> References: <369c3027.0207110914.2473e4a@posting.google.com> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <1fgmayz.1mjye3d17ovybeN%proto@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host217-39-173-104.in-addr.btopenworld.com (217.39.173.104) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1028937417 41721718 217.39.173.104 (16 [113161]) X-Orig-Path: nojay.fsnet.co.uk!nojay X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 U Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news-feed1.de1.concert.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!host217-39-173-104.in-addr.btopenworld.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114082 In article <1fgmayz.1mjye3d17ovybeN%proto@panix.com>, Walter Bushell writes > >Speaking of which there was a man killed last week in ÑYC by lightning, >dancing on top of a building during a thunderstorm. Was he wearing wet copper armour and shouting "All gods are bastards."? -- Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3d4fdc8c$0$1425$bbae4d71@news.net-link.net> From: Dowe Keller Date: 09 Aug 2002 22:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.7 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.7 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1028953979 209.234.196.7 (9 Aug 2002 21:32:59 -0700) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113861 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > Marlin Perkins and Jim...somebody. Yes, That's them. > Those shows are nothing compared to the stuff put out by > David Attenborough. I like Attenborough's nature documentaries, particular the _Life_on_Earth_ series, he doesn't generally run animals down and subject them to dartings, manhandling or other such like things. IMHO, while there are nature shows out there that are as good, or better than _Wild_Kingdom_, there aren't any that are very similar to it. -- dowe@sierratel.com "...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly)." (By Matt Welsh) ###### Reply-To: "Paul Austin" From: "Paul Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <3D4D643B.43B9CDCD@alcyone.com> <3D4DA775.1080002@exodus.nospam> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 97 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 07:48:09 EDT Organization: WEBUSENET.com Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 08:01:33 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds-atl2!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114145 "Rupert Pigott" wrote > "Paul Austin" wrote > > > > "Rupert Pigott" wrote > > > wrote > > > > > > [SNIP] > > > > > > > The USA is supposed to hobble its production so that third > > > > world economies can produce more pollution? That makes so > > > > much sense. How about the USA continue to produce and develop > > > > so that those third world economies get through their high > > > > pollution phase quickly. > > > > > > Err, I don't exactly see how you drew the conclusion > > > that you had to hobble production... Pollution controls > > > != hobbling production. Furthermore a huge amount of > > > "production" is actually done in the 3rd world anyways. > > > > Actually, your wrong about both of your points. > > > > First, to comply with the Kyoto-97 accord today would require a 50% > > decrease in greenhouse gas emissions with permanent caps on any > > further growth in emissions. There is _no_ way to cut production of > > greenhouse gases by that much in the short term without a similar cut > > in GDP. In the _long_ run, since Kyoto explicitly excluded from > > decreases in greenhouse gases any shift to fission reactor-produced > > power, there's no way to reduce either fixed generation or vehicle > > greenhouse gas production on the scale required without direct cuts in > > GDP. > > > > And as far as 'a huge amount of "production" is actually done in the > > 3rd world anyways', US imports as a net of GDP is 8%. "Huge" huh? > > OK. How about you remove anything which has a "Made in China/Malaysia/ > Taiwan/Indonesia/..." stamp on it from your inventory ? In terms of > possession count I suspect you would notice a significant chunk > missing. > > In case you haven't noticed : There is more to the world than Money. > From that you can deduce that not everything can be expressed in > purely fiscal terms. After all you don't drive a wad of greenbacks > to work, you don't eat greenbacks (unless you're trying to disprove > a USENET point) and you don't fill your car with greenbacks at the > filling station (unless you are robbing it). > > Measuring everything by money seems to be a common error, and one > which does not guarantee correct or meaningful answers. > > I pity people who can't see beyond money, they miss out on a lot > of valuable things. Money (in terms of Purchasing Power Parity) is a decent global accounting vehicle. Special pleadings look for the metric that spins the grindstone, that grinds the axe... Take your point. The motherboard in this machine was made in Taiwan. It's a $75 item. The CPU was made in one of AMD's domestic fabs and cost $125. The chassis came from China and cost $75 and the power supply is German, also $75. The disks were assembled in Malaysia but the read-write heads and platters were made elswhere. The checkout and assembly came from me (my rate is $75 an hour). The motherboard was essentially untouched by human hands as was the CPU and the HDDs. The CPU contains the amortized labor of a design team of about 100 very talented people. There was some touch labor in the chassis but not much and not very complex. Money is about the only metric that allows meaningful comparisons of the things that go in this machine.. You _can_ pick a different metric like labor hours, tonnes of stuff or for that matter, the sum of IQ point-labor hour product. And then argue interminably over the metric. The reason money is the metric is that it's a meaningful way to compare economic apples and oranges and because money is fungible. It's as useful in your hands as mine and has no memory or history. That's also _virtue_ of money. Money doesn't smell class, it doesn't check to see if your Party dues are current and it doesn't know or care if you quack with the right or wrong accent. -- "I go from exasperation to a state of collapse, then I recover and go from prostration to Fury, so that my average state is one of being annoyed." Paul F Austin pfaustin@bellsouth.net ###### Message-ID: <3D554DD0.5060900@exodus.nospam> From: Jim Balter User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:33:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.6.38.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@cox.net X-Trace: news1.west.cox.net 1029000816 68.6.38.179 (Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:33:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:33:36 EDT Organization: Cox Communications Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!central.cox.net!cox.net!p01!news1.west.cox.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113700 On 8/10/02 4:24 AM, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > In article , > cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: > >>According to Terry Austin : >> ... more abrasive drivel ... >> >>Sigh, not another one. *plonk* >> >>Chris. > > > Sorry. Some days I try to fix idiocy despite my 100% failure rate. That's because mostly you contribute it. -- ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 10 Aug 2002 17:36:40 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <823.986T565T6163598@kltpzyxm.invalid> <3D542AFF.B82431FB@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113785 In article <3D542AFF.B82431FB@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >Terry Austin wrote: >> Good riddance, loser. >Can't you children take a.f.c off the distribution list for your >foolish flamewar? awe, c'mon. This is not a flamewar; it's just second-grade sqabbling while he hides behind a computer screen. Seebach and Crispin last year was a *real* flamewar (though Crispin was just plain out-classed). hawk, remempering why he wanted to plonk the juveniles, and finally getting his round tuit -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 10 Aug 2002 18:13:34 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!feed.news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113773 In article , wrote: >In article , > Dowe Keller wrote: >>better than _Wild_Kingdom_, there aren't any that are very similar to >>it. >There's some Australian guy who keeps showing up on the TV alot >that simulates _Wild Kingdom_. He does really stupid things >that didn't get shown on the WK show. I wouldn't mind the >idiocy if he had some science content. That's the Crocodile Hunter. There's some science in it. It's also funny, but I don't watch it all that often--and then, mostly for the dry humor :) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> From: Dowe Keller Date: 10 Aug 2002 22:34:50 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.216 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.216 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1029041400 206.169.219.216 (10 Aug 2002 21:50:00 -0700) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113883 hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: > In article , wrote: > >In article , > > Dowe Keller wrote: > >>better than _Wild_Kingdom_, there aren't any that are very similar to > >>it. > > >There's some Australian guy who keeps showing up on the TV alot > >that simulates _Wild Kingdom_. He does really stupid things > >that didn't get shown on the WK show. I wouldn't mind the > >idiocy if he had some science content. > > That's the Crocodile Hunter. There's some science in it. It's also > funny, but I don't watch it all that often--and then, mostly for the dry > humor :) I keep watching to see him get bit by a Black Mambo ;-) -- dowe@sierratel.com There are no threads in a.b.p.erotica, so there's no gain in using a threaded news reader. (Unknown source) ###### From: Jeff Teunissen Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Organization: Dusk To Dawn Computing Lines: 40 Message-ID: <3D5EE7F2.4D1B607A@d2dc.net> References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D5ED02C.5060101@REMOVETHIS.spamcop.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US, en NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.245.2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1029630002 12.245.2.60 (Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:20:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:20:02 GMT Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 00:20:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114834 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > Brian Inglis wrote: > > > Seems to be the attitude everywhere else in the world except the > > litigious US. I had to laugh the other week when GWB made some > > statement to the effect that the US would not support the World > > Court (or some such international tribunal) as it might lead to > > large numbers of trivial claims against Americans, American > > organisations, or the like. I couldn't help thinking that, if it > > did, most claims would probably be brought by Americans, and how > > would that that differ from the domestic US situation? > > This has made me remember, vaguely, a sci-fi story/book about a > planet whose entire economy was litigation. They were amphibians or > something. If a lawyer failed to defend or prosecute successfully, > it was the right of the opposition to kill them. > > I might have some of those (sketchy) details wrong, but that was the > basic idea. > > Anyone remember the story? Frank Herbert's Jorj X. McKie stories. McKie was an agent of a government agency called the Bureau of Sabotage, or BuSab for short. BuSab was charged with sabotaging government operations so that nothing got done quickly (a wonderful idea in itself :). The species you're referring to, where the legal system involved combat, was the Gowachin -- though their economy wasn't entirely litigation-based. _Whipping Star_, _The Dosadi Experiment_, "The Tactful Saboteur", and at least one other short story. At least _Dosadi_ had McKie -- ahh, litigating -- in a Gowachin court. -- | Jeff Teunissen -=- Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing -=- deek @ d2dc.net | GPG: 1024D/9840105A 7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B 161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A | Core developer, The QuakeForge Project http://www.quakeforge.net/ | Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/ ###### Reply-To: "Paul Austin" From: "Paul Austin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D5ED496.2010405@REMOVETHIS.spamcop.net> Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:48:20 EDT Organization: WEBUSENET.com Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:34:08 -0400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeeds-atl1.usenetserver.com!news.webusenet.com!pc01.webusenet.com!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114826 "> Dowe Keller wrote: > > > They weren't treating the Bison (for those who haven't seen these > > beasts, they are magnificently huge creatures who could crush a human > > as easily as crumpling a candy bar wrapper) with mutch respect. > > I heard tell of a parent who actually tried to > > put his child on the back of a grizzly bear, for a cute picture. > > I saw the following in person: LB and I were going through a game part on the Olympic Penninsula and one section was a drive-through that contained about 10 bison. The game park sold day-old bread to the tourists as critter-bait. The stationwagon ahead of us has four teenage girls in the back, with the window down. Buffalo wandered up and stuck his head into the back, virtually in the girls laps, looking for a handout. When none was forthcoming, the buff snorted about a gallon of buffalo snot on the girls. . I won't tell you what I've seen people do within close proximity of alligators. -- "I don't wonder that so many men are wicked. I do wonder that so many are unashamed" Paul F Austin pfaustin@bellsouth.net ###### From: alan.nospam@glaramara.freeserve.co.uk (Alan J. Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 18 Aug 2002 22:41:24 +0100 Organization: very little Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-478.clefable.dialup.pol.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 1029706931 29252 217.135.85.222 (18 Aug 2002 21:42:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Aug 2002 21:42:11 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!bilbo!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114842 On Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:08:36 GMT, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) said: > In article <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> > dtate@ida.org "David Tate" writes: > Same thing at The Tombs of the Kings (neolithic rock-cut chambers > which were both living space and a necropolis) at Nea Paphos in > Cyprus. Lots of one-sided stone staircases, many of them 5,000 > years old with irregular steps, etc). No handrails, nothing to stop > people plummeting off the side (or, for that matter, falling in > through the hole on the roof). I've just got back from a holiday in western Ireland. Have a look at my photos of the fort at Dun Angus at http://www.glaramara.freeserve.co.uk/doolin/ esp. DCP_1100-m.JPG -- Alan J. Wylie http://www.glaramara.freeserve.co.uk/ "Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but rather when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:35:40 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3d60301b.110416677@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114856 alan.nospam@glaramara.freeserve.co.uk (Alan J. Wylie) wrote: >On Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:08:36 GMT, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) said: > >> In article <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> >> dtate@ida.org "David Tate" writes: > >> Same thing at The Tombs of the Kings (neolithic rock-cut chambers >> which were both living space and a necropolis) at Nea Paphos in >> Cyprus. Lots of one-sided stone staircases, many of them 5,000 >> years old with irregular steps, etc). No handrails, nothing to stop >> people plummeting off the side (or, for that matter, falling in >> through the hole on the roof). > >I've just got back from a holiday in western Ireland. > >Have a look at my photos of the fort at Dun Angus at >http://www.glaramara.freeserve.co.uk/doolin/ > >esp. DCP_1100-m.JPG Sorry, but the pictures were very dark on my monitor. I would have liked to have seen Irish handrails, but no such luck. What is the ornamentation like on them? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers From: bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:50:25 GMT References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3d60301b.110416677@news.ocis.net> Organization: HappyNet Bungalow Lines: 62 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshosting.com!news-xfer2.atl.newshosting.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!world!bdc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114899 In article <3d60301b.110416677@news.ocis.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: > alan.nospam@glaramara.freeserve.co.uk (Alan J. Wylie) wrote: > > I've just got back from a holiday in western Ireland. > > > > Have a look at my photos of the fort at Dun Angus at > > http://www.glaramara.freeserve.co.uk/doolin/ > > > > esp. DCP_1100-m.JPG > > Sorry, but the pictures were very dark on my monitor. I would > have liked to have seen Irish handrails, but no such luck. What is > the ornamentation like on them? I've been inspired to drag out some of my photos from Ireland to further illustrate fine Irish handrail craftsmanship. First some pictures from Inishmore, the largest of the Aran Islands.... http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-013.jpg --- Here's a (slightly blurry, sorry) sign which means that you aren't allowed to chain your bicycle to the handrail. http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-024.jpg --- Next we have an image of the ancient fort, Dun Aengus. Careful when you head out into the fort's back garden, that first step is about 400ft straight into the angry North Atlantic. Be sure to get a firm grip on the handrail! http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-033.jpg --- "Honey, have you seen the kids since they were off playing by the handrail, last week?" http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-036.jpg --- Trust me, there's a handrail in this picture. It's just obscured by the heel of my left shoe. Were there not a handrail to keep me safe, I'd be at the bottom of the Atlantic! http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-050.jpg --- Hey, what's all this water doing up here? I'm more than a hundred feet above the sea. Thank goodness for handrails! http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-065.jpg --- This one was taken in Galway. I'm not /positive/ as there aren't any words on the sign, but I think this means that you're not supposed to block the handrail by parking your car in front of it. These were all taken near the end of December of 1993 (or early January of 1994?), during some particularly stormy days. I'd only planned on visiting Inishmore for a day, but ended up staying there for three. The seas were too rough for the ferries to cross; I was stuck. The pictures don't adequately convey the amazing power of the Atlantic smashing up against the western cliffs of the island. You could hear the low thud the of them crashing below and could feel the low vibration coming up through the ground and the air. Along lower sections of the cliffs, you'd hear the wave crash, accompanied with white plumes of water shooting up into the air. A fews seconds later, fluffy globs of sea foam floated down, like washing suds... onto the handrails, of course. -brian. -- --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- "Captain, we're experiencing a high rate of packet collisions!" -- K. ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:19:39 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3d61912e.33288442@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3d60301b.110416677@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!teaser.fr!freenix!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:114912 bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) wrote: [snip] >http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-036.jpg --- Trust me, there's a handrail >in this picture. It's just obscured by the heel of my left shoe. Were >there not a handrail to keep me safe, I'd be at the bottom of the >Atlantic! My goodness! And at 36, you might have been at the end of the roll with nothing more to live for. [snip] >http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-065.jpg --- This one was taken in >Galway. I'm not /positive/ as there aren't any words on the sign, but I >think this means that you're not supposed to block the handrail by parking >your car in front of it. Beware of amphibious vehicles? [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: stnchris@xmission.com (Steve Christensen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:03:59 +0000 (UTC) Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3d60301b.110416677@news.ocis.net> <3d61912e.33288442@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: stnchris@xmission.com NNTP-Posting-Host: xmission.xmission.com X-Trace: terabinaries.xmission.com 1030043039 2548 198.60.22.20 (22 Aug 2002 19:03:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@xmission.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:03:59 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (SunOS) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!xmission!nnrp.xmission!stnchris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115042 In article <3d61912e.33288442@news.ocis.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) wrote: >>http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-065.jpg --- This one was taken in >>Galway. I'm not /positive/ as there aren't any words on the sign, but I >>think this means that you're not supposed to block the handrail by parking >>your car in front of it. > > Beware of amphibious vehicles? I think it's more "Please don't drive off the pier" I took this in Padstow (in Cornwall) last fall: http://www.xmission.com/~stnchris/tmp/threatening_sign.jpg The "Please don't drive off the pier" sign on the same lamp post as their "remember to pay to park here sign" makes it seem as if they'll roll your car into the bay if you don't pay for parking. -Steve -- Well, whatever my destiny, it will no doubt involve pissing off a large number of people. As long as I get to wear a cape, I suppose it won't be all bad. -- Zixia, a.r.k. ###### From: Chuck Stewart Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: 23 Aug 2002 03:30:40 GMT Organization: Pumas Anonymouse Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D5ED02C.5060101@REMOVETHIS.spamcop.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1b-88.ccrtc.com (209.132.164.193) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1030073440 49304057 209.132.164.193 (16 [81287]) User-Agent: Xnews/5.04.25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!1b-88.ccrtc.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115129 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote in news:3D5ED02C.5060101@REMOVETHIS.spamcop.net: > This has made me remember, vaguely, a sci-fi story/book about a > planet whose entire economy was litigation. They were amphibians or > I might have some of those (sketchy) details wrong, but that was the > basic idea. > Anyone remember the story? The Dosadi Experiment by Frank Herbert, featuring Jon X. McKie of the Bureau of Sabotage. Herbert wrote other stories ("A Matter of Traces" "The Tactful Saboteur") set in that milieu, and the novel Whipping Star -- Chuck Stewart "Anime-style catgirls: Threat? Menace? Or just studying algebra?" ###### Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:46:49 +0200 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Message-ID: <20020823074649.7e47c65c.steveo@eircom.net> References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3d60301b.110416677@news.ocis.net> <3d61912e.33288442@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.8.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Organization: Wanadoo NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Aug 2002 16:58:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: p3403.vwr.wanadoo.nl X-Trace: DXC=Tid5h`mR:R=m_[I^gOXe>?1`\LnN2UYY1bWJ4=`dFRY0kP@QO`nIa00Wb>T\UGCKb; X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news2.euro.net!postnews1.euro.net!news.wanadoo.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115133 On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:03:59 +0000 (UTC) stnchris@xmission.com (Steve Christensen) wrote: SC> The "Please don't drive off the pier" sign on the same lamp post as SC> their "remember to pay to park here sign" makes it seem as if they'll SC> roll your car into the bay if you don't pay for parking. I thought it implied that if you did drive off the pier you would not only pay to have it hauled out, but also for parking it there :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,comp.ai.philosophy,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 06:42:58 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3d65b825.50856924@news.ocis.net> Reply-To: genew@mail.ocis.net References: <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <1028664516snz@dsl.co.uk> <3d60301b.110416677@news.ocis.net> <3d61912e.33288442@news.ocis.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115088 stnchris@xmission.com (Steve Christensen) wrote: >In article <3d61912e.33288442@news.ocis.net>, Gene Wirchenko wrote: >>bdc@world.std.com (Brian 'Jarai' Chase) wrote: >>>http://www.jarai.org/temp/ire/ire-065.jpg --- This one was taken in >>>Galway. I'm not /positive/ as there aren't any words on the sign, but I >>>think this means that you're not supposed to block the handrail by parking >>>your car in front of it. >> >> Beware of amphibious vehicles? > >I think it's more "Please don't drive off the pier" > >I took this in Padstow (in Cornwall) last fall: >http://www.xmission.com/~stnchris/tmp/threatening_sign.jpg > >The "Please don't drive off the pier" sign on the same lamp post as >their "remember to pay to park here sign" makes it seem as if they'll >roll your car into the bay if you don't pay for parking. Or the car is committing suicide because of its cheapskate owner. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:21:31 -0500 Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D5ED02C.5060101@REMOVETHIS.spamcop.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ap-013tnnashp0364.dialsprint.net (63.190.193.110) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1030202496 50590753 63.190.193.110 (16 [61967]) Cancel-Lock: sha1:YX5DaN5dspl5GNvuetinwkseZSs= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!sdn-ap-013tnnashp0364.dialsprint.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115211 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:37:32 -0400, Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >This has made me remember, vaguely, a sci-fi story/book about a >planet whose entire economy was litigation. They were amphibians or > something. If a lawyer failed to defend or prosecute successfully, > it was the right of the opposition to kill them. > >I might have some of those (sketchy) details wrong, but that was the > basic idea. > >Anyone remember the story? One assumes that this right wasn't exercised very often, or else there would be a rapid decline in the adult population. After all, in every lawsuit, someone is going to lose, unless the case is dropped or the legal system allows stalemated decisions. Also, if this was their entire economy, then where did the rest of the economy come from? Did they serve as the source of lawyers for a larger, multi-planetary society? Redistributing the wealth only works if there is someone producing the wealth to be redistributed. Who grows the food? Who does the manufacturing? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBPWeUyzMYPge5L34aEQLaTwCfQoMT48sz+RhC8wuDwdbmpIyh64cAn2R9 ffv0CTRw6spBLj0bSccOj0mN =sWL0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." Woodrow Wilson ###### From: John F. Eldredge Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:40:50 -0500 Lines: 38 Message-ID: <44afmu03d17fop24obsv9h6dqq31mqk5n2@4ax.com> References: <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D4CAD52.8070508@exodus.nospam> <9d67e55e.0208040901.65ed8b4f@posting.google.com> <3D4DA3A5.5020103@exodus.nospam> <3D4DB19B.2AB07366@dls.net> <3D4E4ED1.7020101@exodus.nospam> <3D4E626B.33EC5A21@dls.net> <3D4F4CBE.3030106@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ap-013tnnashp0364.dialsprint.net (63.190.193.110) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1030203655 50895426 63.190.193.110 (16 [61967]) Cancel-Lock: sha1:MS6s2NT650p467q1YX60DCTK0Os= X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 X-NFilter: 1.2.1-b1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!sdn-ap-013tnnashp0364.dialsprint.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115203 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:47:03 -0500, D.J. wrote: > >Tony Hursh wrote: >] "Sooo.... you can kill the bear (maybe, if you're lucky) >] *after* it's taken off a few of your wife's limbs. Does >] this perhaps seem a bit suboptimal to you?" > >Years ago I chated with someone who had been a Park ranger. hesaid >that folks would declare that since it was a park, the animals were >tame. Defiately Darwin in action. > >I grew up in town, but I know better than to pet a bear. For that matter, cattle have been domesticated for several thousand years, but I still wouldn't advise taking a shortcut across a field with a bull in it. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBPWeo6jMYPge5L34aEQI7HwCfZdXy6N7BnSU09n3HkAORDOzchQQAnRqj inoOlt3qFx3ryg1Pm3sjH2cX =UGNV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge.com PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." Woodrow Wilson ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.written,alt.folklore.computers From: mbg@world.std.com (Megan) Subject: Re: help: Thinking with Meat Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Message-ID: References: <3d28181d$0$12694$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk> <3D3A8F3D.4030407@exodus.nospam> <3D3D72A6.A43BF8D5@cisco.com> <3D3D8601.9070100@io.com.invalid> <3D49F22F.50401@exodus.nospam> <3D4B99E6.5030202@exodus.nospam> <030820022222161454%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D4C5BDF.2080900@exodus.nospam> <3D4C80D6.659C680F@ev1.net> <3D5ED02C.5060101@REMOVETHIS.spamcop.net> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:43:31 GMT Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!mbg Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115364 >>This has made me remember, vaguely, a sci-fi story/book about a >>planet whose entire economy was litigation. They were amphibians or >> something. If a lawyer failed to defend or prosecute successfully, >> it was the right of the opposition to kill them. There was a 'Sliders' episode in which litigators wore guns at their hips, and 'negotiations' resulted in, shall we say, retirement of the loser. Though, to adapt a phrase from Star Wars, "This is not the story you are looking for." (with approppriate wave of hand) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | email: gentry at zk3.dec.com (work) | | Unix Support Engineering Group | mbg at world.std.com (home) | | Hewlett Packard | (s/ at /@/) | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+