Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 19 Jul 2002 11:53:28 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 19 Jul 2002 12:09:24 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112522 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > On a VT100? Maybe a VT50; 24 lines made it a VT52. I don't think I > ever saw a VT100 with only 12 lines. Speaking of which, what were the characteristics of the VT51? The field maintenance print set shows fourteen 2102 RAM chips (1K*1 static) for the frame buffer, with a note that for the VT51 half of them should be left out. So obviously the VT51 display must have no more than 1024 total characters. And I had been under the impression that the VT55 was a VT52 with the printer option. But the VT52 prints show many VT52-xx variations that include the printer. Was there some additional difference for the VT55? How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? The VT52 ROM/UART board schematics mention that there were different ROMs (microcode) for the VT51, VT52, and other variants, but the parts list for the board was not included in the print set, so I don't have the specific ROM part numbers. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:29:26 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112498 In article , Eric Smith wrote: > How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys had some block mode editing capability. There was some support in IAS for 'em. Might have been something in RSTS too. I wrote a rival terminal that used the same IAS support for doing some typesetting (that one had a Z80 in it) ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 19 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1027134660 709 128.171.80.135 (20 Jul 2002 03:11:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jul 2002 03:11:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.net.uni-c.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112523 >>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: Elliott> In article , Eric Smith Elliott> wrote: >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? Nothead ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:32:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1027146731 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:32:11 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:32:11 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112530 On 19 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -1000, Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: > > Elliott> In article , Eric Smith > Elliott> wrote: > > >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? > > Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys > Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. > >My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? Possibly character block graphics as in the VT100 extended set? -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:40:09 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112496 In article <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote: > On 19 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -1000, Jim Thomas > wrote: > > >>>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: > > > > Elliott> In article , Eric Smith > > Elliott> wrote: > > > > >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? > > > > Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys > > Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. > > > >My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? > > Possibly character block graphics as in the VT100 extended set? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the graphics tricks on the VT100 came fresh with the VT100. That neuron started nagging like a pimple begging to be squeezed. Google gave me this http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/block_mode_news.txt (from none other than Jerry Leichter) Thinking over it, I'm no longer sure that it was IAS (remember that? RSX11-D as butchered by DEC in Reading UK into quite a decent timesharing system for folk who could not afford PDP-10s) talking to the VT61s. The customer had RSTS as well. Whatever it was, it sent a whole 'take' of a news or magazine story to the terminal, complete with 'formats' which were effectively macro names to direct the subsequent typesetting. For the terminal I had the fun of writing, I did a fairly complete subset of the functionality of VT52.TEC in Z80 assembler, with the added joy of of skidding the cursor across formats that were marked as not to be edited. I'm no longer sure that the block mode support in the pdp-11 host was not home grown by the customer, but I'd bet reasonably short odds that the VT61 block mode protocol (the "ASCII" version rather than the DDCMP version) was used to push the stories back and forth. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:10:09 +0100 Organization: Nextra UK Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 44.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: thorium.cix.co.uk 1027196011 26334 212.35.234.44 (20 Jul 2002 20:13:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@net.nextra.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:13:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.nextra.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112531 In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >In article <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis > wrote: > >> On 19 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -1000, Jim Thomas >> wrote: >> >> >>>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: >> > >> > Elliott> In article , Eric Smith >> > Elliott> wrote: >> > >> > >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? >> > >> > Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys >> > Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. >> > >> >My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? >> >> Possibly character block graphics as in the VT100 extended set? > >I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the graphics tricks on the VT100 came >fresh with the VT100. 512*256 (?) graphics on a VT55. > >That neuron started nagging like a pimple begging to be squeezed. > >Google gave me this >http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/block_mode_news.txt >(from none other than Jerry Leichter) > >Thinking over it, I'm no longer sure that it was IAS (remember that? Yup, on the 11/70. Our 11/70 folk were pissed off with DEC when IAS became "unsupported". VT62 was the terminal for TRAX. See PDP11 software handbook, 1978ish. Really weird stuff - to a real time process control guy - but the serial comms / interrupt handling might be "interesting". Regards, David P. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 02 10:57:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaCtyMR99iNibicsz5cR1EBa+2wkG9ulR5TYV5Rn5tpN4r1e2fF5tfr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2002 12:02:01 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-32 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112559 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: > > Elliott> In article , Eric Smith > Elliott> wrote: > > >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? > > Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys > Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. > >My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? Your neuron and my neuron agree. The 50s didn't have anything in common, AFAIK, with the 60s. They even made different sounds. The 60s were real computers (unless I'm really confusing the cybercurd). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 02 11:01:25 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaHSaHUGvinLOj8AGs01/1U0zyXVyO9fqzuk/5Lfz1cMal5tX3I/q9P X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2002 12:05:35 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-32 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112550 In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: >In article <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis > wrote: > >> On 19 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -1000, Jim Thomas >> wrote: >> >> >>>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: >> > >> > Elliott> In article , Eric Smith >> > Elliott> wrote: >> > >> > >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? >> > >> > Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys >> > Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. >> > >> >My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? >> >> Possibly character block graphics as in the VT100 extended set? > >I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the graphics tricks on the VT100 came >fresh with the VT100. > >That neuron started nagging like a pimple begging to be squeezed. > >Google gave me this >http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/block_mode_news.txt >(from none other than Jerry Leichter) > >Thinking over it, I'm no longer sure that it was IAS Yup. Nice system and it's programmers were human who didn't mind talking to us PDP-10 types. > .. (remember that? >RSX11-D as butchered by DEC in Reading UK into quite a decent >timesharing system for folk who could not afford PDP-10s) talking to >the VT61s. The customer had RSTS as well. Whatever it was, it sent a >whole 'take' of a news or magazine story to the terminal, complete with >'formats' which were effectively macro names to direct the subsequent >typesetting. For the terminal I had the fun of writing, I did a fairly >complete subset of the functionality of VT52.TEC in Z80 assembler, with >the added joy of of skidding the cursor across formats that were marked >as not to be edited. >I'm no longer sure that the block mode support in the pdp-11 host was >not home grown by the customer, but I'd bet reasonably short odds that >the VT61 block mode protocol (the "ASCII" version rather than the DDCMP >version) was used to push the stories back and forth. DEC's PDP-10s had something that behaved like that; it was called Typeset-10. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 02 11:05:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ2dEqgK9Wv9HCh4xZt88HFfqiW7k9tiVK18i6jvbDRTI9NtFYUKyC/ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2002 12:09:16 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-32 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112552 In article , David Powell wrote: >In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, > Elliott Roper in alt.folklore.computers wrote: > >>In article <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis >> wrote: >> >>> On 19 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -1000, Jim Thomas >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: >>> > >>> > Elliott> In article , Eric Smith >>> > Elliott> wrote: >>> > >>> > >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? >>> > >>> > Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these guys >>> > Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. >>> > >>> >My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? >>> >>> Possibly character block graphics as in the VT100 extended set? >> >>I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the graphics tricks on the VT100 came >>fresh with the VT100. > >512*256 (?) graphics on a VT55. I don't remember any of those VT5x doing graphics. That was just out its league. The VT100 came way later after the 50s. When I got mine, I got really, irritated because I had to "program" it. Why the hell should I have to program something when all I want it to do is act like a terminal? Most of that programming was to tell NOT to do anything. Do you know how difficult it is to tell something that's obviously brain damaged to not do anything? > >> >>That neuron started nagging like a pimple begging to be squeezed. >> >>Google gave me this >>http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/block_mode_news.txt >>(from none other than Jerry Leichter) >> >>Thinking over it, I'm no longer sure that it was IAS (remember that? > >Yup, on the 11/70. Our 11/70 folk were pissed off with DEC when IAS >became "unsupported". They should. IAS was something that worked well. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 17:52:30 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112562 In article , wrote: > In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, > Elliott Roper wrote: > > ....but I'd bet reasonably short odds that > >the VT61 block mode protocol (the "ASCII" version rather than the DDCMP > >version) was used to push the stories back and forth. > > DEC's PDP-10s had something that behaved like that; it was > called Typeset-10. And a fine piece of work it was. Everyone else was trying to make one as good that did not require such an expensive machine. Typeset-8 for the really cheapies, (looking after that was part of my job when I worked at DEC in Sydney) and Typeset-11. But as far as I know, it never really got off the ground. It was RSX11-D based, but well hidden from the user. I think it pre-dated IAS. Elliott ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 02 10:51:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYvjLZMRbNu0JwP9o9i+5PPQpCZeYBuM7CjvEMn72VN1cxb/ehD4aF0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2002 11:55:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-61 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112624 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> On a VT100? Maybe a VT50; 24 lines made it a VT52. I don't think I >> ever saw a VT100 with only 12 lines. > >Speaking of which, what were the characteristics of the VT51? I have no idea. My educated guess is that it was a VT50 with a printer. Now who would even want that would be a great philosophical question. > ... The >field maintenance print set shows fourteen 2102 RAM chips (1K*1 static) for >the frame buffer, with a note that for the VT51 half of them should be >left out. So obviously the VT51 display must have no more than 1024 >total characters. I stick my neck out now...There was never a VT50 that could do more than 12 lines. 24 lines was the VT52. That's how I could tell the difference between the two. > >And I had been under the impression that the VT55 was a VT52 with the >printer option. But the VT52 prints show many VT52-xx variations that >include the printer. Was there some additional difference for the VT55? I don't think I ever heard of a VT55, let alone have met one. As an educated guess with no facts, I'd guess that a 55 was another set of guts in VT52 clothing. Since we never got one, I'd also say it was built with one customer in mind; so it was a custom job. > >How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? Sound. Earplugs for the surrounding offices were recommended. I didn't have to login into the -10 to use it. > >The VT52 ROM/UART board schematics mention that there were different >ROMs (microcode) for the VT51, VT52, and other variants, but the parts >list for the board was not included in the print set, so I don't have >the specific ROM part numbers. Sorry. When you start talking hardware, I can't tell you a bit. I stopped keeping track of terminal cybercurd after the VT100 was forced my throat. It appears that I stopped keeping track with the VT52. The 52 had the best keyboard for touch typists; I'm talking about terminals that DEC produced. The most perfect keyboard and screen was that thing we called the VT06; I can never remember its real name. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 02 10:58:29 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaBB1Ks0MoMJCjDMzvt3CfI14iLpc/Pv1AH673cT7Maaiv3K9M6RTee X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2002 12:02:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-61 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112617 In article <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: >In article , wrote: > >> In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, >> Elliott Roper wrote: >> > ....but I'd bet reasonably short odds that >> >the VT61 block mode protocol (the "ASCII" version rather than the DDCMP >> >version) was used to push the stories back and forth. >> >> DEC's PDP-10s had something that behaved like that; it was >> called Typeset-10. > >And a fine piece of work it was. I used RDH's terminal in the AM part of the day (he was a PM) to typeset JMF's resume. I sure wish I'd had that when I was head of the RUNOFF group. > ...Everyone else was trying to make one >as good that did not require such an expensive machine. Typeset-8 for >the really cheapies, (looking after that was part of my job when I >worked at DEC in Sydney) I had heard the -8 was pretty good for the CPU power it had. > ... and Typeset-11. But as far as I know, it never >really got off the ground. It was RSX11-D based, That's why it wouldn't get off the ground. AFAICT, a functional typesetting program was very sensitive to monitor heavy-handedness. > ..but well hidden from >the user. That was another of it's problems then. The user can't have his typesetter hidden. > ..I think it pre-dated IAS. I thought IAS was older than I am. :-). I can tell you that we didn't have anything typesetting-wise in 1971, 1972, and 1973 or I would have swooped down and used it. There was a typesetting something or other that was used to make the PDP-12 hardware handbook in 1971-ish. It did require that awful terminal known as a 37. But all of that "software" seemed to have disappeared by the time I got to be head of the RUNOFF group. Everyone I asked told me it didn't exist; it never existed; I was dreaming. Then you wonder why I'm paranoid. /BAH /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 02 12:45:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYWsASyISYqxBgq33Cz3MdGimt3FSg0PO/V+JLKT8FwLdcK0aS29jIv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2002 13:49:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-97-121 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112625 In article , jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>In article , >> Eric Smith wrote: >>>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>>> On a VT100? Maybe a VT50; 24 lines made it a VT52. I don't think I >>>> ever saw a VT100 with only 12 lines. >>> >>>Speaking of which, what were the characteristics of the VT51? > >>I have no idea. My educated guess is that it was a VT50 with >>a printer. Now who would even want that would be a great >>philosophical question. > >Was the VT51 supposed to be an upgrade to a VT50? That's the implication of the 0 going to a 1 in the part name. > .. I'm asking since >the comment jogged a memory cell that suggested the existence >of a slot in the top of the VT50 shell that was apparently intended >to be an exit port for continuous-roll paper, although there was >no hardware inside to support a printer. uh-huh. That was the theory. It was really put there to torture us if we passed close to the damned thing. >Thankfully, my contact with VT50 boxes is in the sufficiently distant >past that the memories are no longer fresh. It was flat on top (for ones very important accessories: listings, coffee mugs, and ashtrays), it had a little shelf one could but a steno pad (that's when I switched to using steno pads to keep notes and program snippets in), and it had a typable keys. It was also "cheap" enough so that we could each have one in our offices. I don't believe I ever had to call field service due to breakage. VR05s were always testing one's eyesight. I routinely dropped one before setting down to do any work with it. It was a physical incantation that usually worked. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:29:39 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1027344579 28212 128.29.114.13 (22 Jul 2002 13:29:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:29:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!uio.no!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112633 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >In article , > Eric Smith wrote: >>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >>> On a VT100? Maybe a VT50; 24 lines made it a VT52. I don't think I >>> ever saw a VT100 with only 12 lines. >> >>Speaking of which, what were the characteristics of the VT51? >I have no idea. My educated guess is that it was a VT50 with >a printer. Now who would even want that would be a great >philosophical question. Was the VT51 supposed to be an upgrade to a VT50? I'm asking since the comment jogged a memory cell that suggested the existence of a slot in the top of the VT50 shell that was apparently intended to be an exit port for continuous-roll paper, although there was no hardware inside to support a printer. Thankfully, my contact with VT50 boxes is in the sufficiently distant past that the memories are no longer fresh. Joe Morris ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) Cancel-Lock: sha1:SnhUmBUs9GRjIF4KlnZZhPue/r8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:18:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.95.140 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1027347487 165.247.95.140 (Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:18:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 07:18:07 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!03b822ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112622 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > It was flat on top (for ones very important accessories: listings, > coffee mugs, and ashtrays), it had a little shelf one could but > a steno pad (that's when I switched to using steno pads to keep > notes and program snippets in), and it had a typable keys. > It was also "cheap" enough so that we could each have one > in our offices. I don't believe I ever had to call field > service due to breakage. VR05s were always testing one's > eyesight. I routinely dropped one before setting down to > do any work with it. It was a physical incantation that > usually worked. when they instituted a rule that you needed VP-level sign-off for 3270s in your office ... we did the business analysis that the 3-year amortized cost of 3270 was less per month than a telephone that everybody got on their desk as a matter of course. that was just about the same time that some middle management discovered that a number of corporate executives had started using email ... and in a number of cases a whole organization's year's quota for 3270s for engineers and programmers got rerouted to middle management so they could appear to be doing email also ... aka all of a sudden it became a status symbol. later on, such things became more institutionalized ... aka nearly all the internal PS2m80s going to managers' offices even tho they never used it for anything but 3270 emulation reading email. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Michael N. LeVine" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 08:13:37 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 54 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!mlevine Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112652 In article , jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) wrote: > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > >In article , > > Eric Smith wrote: > >>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >>> On a VT100? Maybe a VT50; 24 lines made it a VT52. I don't think I > >>> ever saw a VT100 with only 12 lines. > >> > >>Speaking of which, what were the characteristics of the VT51? > > >I have no idea. My educated guess is that it was a VT50 with > >a printer. Now who would even want that would be a great > >philosophical question. > > Was the VT51 supposed to be an upgrade to a VT50? I'm asking since > the comment jogged a memory cell that suggested the existence > of a slot in the top of the VT50 shell that was apparently intended > to be an exit port for continuous-roll paper, although there was > no hardware inside to support a printer. > > Thankfully, my contact with VT50 boxes is in the sufficiently distant > past that the memories are no longer fresh. > > Joe Morris Looking at some old DEC terminal/peripherals manuals I have in my library VT01 Storage disdplay scope - not a terminal VT05 Essentially a glass TTY with a few extras cursor control VT50 inteligent CRT terminal 5x7 dot matrix chars 80 charx12 lines VT52 inteligent CRT terminal Upgrade of VT50 7x7 chars 80 charx24 lines more control commands than 50 VT55 Essentaily a VT55 with limited graphics capability (by todays standards anyway) added on, and an electrostatic printer. The printer was to operators right hand side on the side of the terminal. No mention of the VT51 was found. The VT100 and up terminals were based on the ANSI terminal standard as I recall. -- Michael LeVine - mlevine@redshift.com "Thirty days hath September, April, June and November. All the rest have thirty one except for Gypsy Rose Lee and every one knew what she had" - Mel Blanc ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:54:49 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 78 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!central.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112628 In article , wrote: > In article <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, > Elliott Roper wrote: > >In article , wrote: > > > >> In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, > >> Elliott Roper wrote: > >> > ....but I'd bet reasonably short odds that > >> >the VT61 block mode protocol (the "ASCII" version rather than the DDCMP > >> >version) was used to push the stories back and forth. > >> > >> DEC's PDP-10s had something that behaved like that; it was > >> called Typeset-10. > > > >And a fine piece of work it was. > > I used RDH's terminal in the AM part of the day (he was a PM) > to typeset JMF's resume. I sure wish I'd had that when I was > head of the RUNOFF group. > > > ...Everyone else was trying to make one > >as good that did not require such an expensive machine. Typeset-8 for > >the really cheapies, (looking after that was part of my job when I > >worked at DEC in Sydney) > > I had heard the -8 was pretty good for the CPU power it had. It was not too bad. More than usable in newspaper, magazine and book setting. We had it in daily newspapers and in jobbing typesetting houses. Support for hot metal and most of the photosetters that were coming onto the market from all directions. Around 1974-ish. > > > ... and Typeset-11. But as far as I know, it never > >really got off the ground. It was RSX11-D based, > > That's why it wouldn't get off the ground. AFAICT, a functional > typesetting program was very sensitive to monitor heavy-handedness. > > > ..but well hidden from > >the user. > > That was another of it's problems then. The user can't have > his typesetter hidden. Ha! You know what I meant. The users seldom saw the dreaded "MCR>" > > > ..I think it pre-dated IAS. > > I thought IAS was older than I am. :-). I can tell you that > we didn't have anything typesetting-wise in 1971, 1972, and > 1973 or I would have swooped down and used it. I think IAS was about 1977. It was a sort of swan-song for 11-D (heh, maybe it was D for ugly duckling) 11-M ate D's lunch for just about everything I saw. 11/23's and RSX-11M were far far cheaper, and usually faster than anything running 11-D. I know you are no great Cutler fan, but that 11-M exec code was really really good. > > There was a typesetting something or other that was used to > make the PDP-12 hardware handbook in 1971-ish. It did require > that awful terminal known as a 37. But all of that "software" > seemed to have disappeared by the time I got to be head of > the RUNOFF group. Everyone I asked told me it didn't exist; > it never existed; I was dreaming. Then you wonder why I'm > paranoid. That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. 4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. It was all in assembler of course, heavily self modifying as was the fashion in those days. There was only one comment line in the whole 4 inch stack of listing and no documentation. I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! The damn thing was dumped on me when I first joined DEC as a cocky little brat. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:59:08 +0100 Organization: Nextra UK Lines: 67 Message-ID: <1ulojukns0ekgp731m3l9b1515js9v52i1@4ax.com> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: thorium.cix.co.uk 1027368154 11482 212.35.234.32 (22 Jul 2002 20:02:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@net.nextra.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:02:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.nextra.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112647 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >In article , > David Powell wrote: >>In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, >> Elliott Roper in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >> >>>In article <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 19 Jul 2002 17:11:00 -1000, Jim Thomas >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> "Elliott" == Elliott Roper writes: >>>> > >>>> > Elliott> In article , Eric >Smith >>>> > Elliott> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >> How were the VT61 and VT62 different than the VT5x? >>>> > >>>> > Elliott> Some barely firing ancient neuron seems to think that these >guys >>>> > Elliott> had some block mode editing capability. >>>> > >>>> >My neuron says they did graphics. Or was that the VT55? >>>> >>>> Possibly character block graphics as in the VT100 extended set? >>> >>>I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the graphics tricks on the VT100 came >>>fresh with the VT100. >> >>512*256 (?) graphics on a VT55. > >I don't remember any of those VT5x doing graphics. That was just >out its league. For the modern definition of "graphics", yes, but at the time a "graphics" terminal had a mode with the ability to set/reset any pixel on the screen, in addition to a x*y pixel-block mode. Of the 1970s DEC terminals, VT55 and VT125 had "graphics", VT05, VT50, VT52 and VT100 were pixel-block addressable terminals. All a VT55 could do in graphics mode was plot-a-graph, and print it on a fax roll. Sufficiently useful to have just one in the lab., used mostly as an (expensive) VT52 character terminal. > The VT100 came way later after the 50s. IIRC, VT55 predated VT100 by about 2 years. >>>Thinking over it, I'm no longer sure that it was IAS (remember that? >> >>Yup, on the 11/70. Our 11/70 folk were pissed off with DEC when IAS >>became "unsupported". > >They should. IAS was something that worked well. > Good. We agree on something. :-) Regards, David P. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 02 11:23:21 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <1ulojukns0ekgp731m3l9b1515js9v52i1@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaAyBT7brMlmPpa/uwmWPwHd3jExwjJKzFBdL8+6K9uTJd252ovOIWH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2002 12:27:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112667 In article <1ulojukns0ekgp731m3l9b1515js9v52i1@4ax.com>, David Powell wrote: >In article , > jmfbahciv@aol.com in alt.folklore.computers wrote: > >>In article , >> David Powell wrote: >>>In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, >>> Elliott Roper in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >>I don't remember any of those VT5x doing graphics. That was just >>out its league. > >For the modern definition of "graphics", yes, but at the time a >"graphics" terminal had a mode with the ability to set/reset any pixel >on the screen, in addition to a x*y pixel-block mode. Of the 1970s >DEC terminals, VT55 and VT125 had "graphics", VT05, VT50, VT52 and >VT100 were pixel-block addressable terminals. I didn't think (here we're getting into hardware again) that the VT05s and VT50s were directly addressable (and I was using graphics loosely to mean direct pixel-addressable). I seem to remember CDO mumbling about trying to get SYSDPY to do the correct thing when he defined the VT05; and then later he did the 50 and 52. Note that this is about all I know and how I "learned" how those videos worked. With the VT05, didn't a program have to put the cursor back to home before pointing it at a pixel? > >All a VT55 could do in graphics mode was plot-a-graph, and print it on >a fax roll. Sufficiently useful to have just one in the lab., used >mostly as an (expensive) VT52 character terminal. Didn't the print quality suck? Then fade away? >>>>Thinking over it, I'm no longer sure that it was IAS (remember that? >>> >>>Yup, on the 11/70. Our 11/70 folk were pissed off with DEC when IAS >>>became "unsupported". >> >>They should. IAS was something that worked well. >> > >Good. We agree on something. :-) It was the only OS I didn't have to wrestle with or wait a loooonnnngggg time when I was the shmuck who got stuck certifying DECnet. I could have kissed the whole development group for that. The sad thing was that, because it worked so well, I didn't get to spend much time with it. /BAH ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 02 11:59:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 136 Message-ID: References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZzsTRjSsW/P+jSCI9FYrpDvgdobApOeHa6q0XYWYzhgzm9H75plU99 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2002 13:04:01 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-21 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112668 In article <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: >In article , wrote: > >> In article <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, >> Elliott Roper wrote: >> >In article , wrote: >> > >> >> In article <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, >> >> Elliott Roper wrote: >> >> > ....but I'd bet reasonably short odds that >> > ...Everyone else was trying to make one >> >as good that did not require such an expensive machine. Typeset-8 for >> >the really cheapies, (looking after that was part of my job when I >> >worked at DEC in Sydney) >> >> I had heard the -8 was pretty good for the CPU power it had. >It was not too bad. More than usable in newspaper, magazine and book >setting. We had it in daily newspapers and in jobbing typesetting >houses. Support for hot metal and most of the photosetters that were >coming onto the market from all directions. Around 1974-ish. That was after my RUNOFF group time. >> > >> > ... and Typeset-11. But as far as I know, it never >> >really got off the ground. It was RSX11-D based, >> >> That's why it wouldn't get off the ground. AFAICT, a functional >> typesetting program was very sensitive to monitor heavy-handedness. >> >> > ..but well hidden from >> >the user. >> >> That was another of it's problems then. The user can't have >> his typesetter hidden. > >Ha! You know what I meant. > ..The users seldom saw the dreaded "MCR>" I don't know how they managed that. I'll tell you; having that damned thing pop out at me did not assuage my anti-Cutler bias. >> >> > ..I think it pre-dated IAS. >> >> I thought IAS was older than I am. :-). I can tell you that >> we didn't have anything typesetting-wise in 1971, 1972, and >> 1973 or I would have swooped down and used it. > >I think IAS was about 1977. It was a sort of swan-song for 11-D >(heh, maybe it was D for ugly duckling) Nah. That was the version that finally acknowledged that customers might wish to have disks on their system. > ..11-M ate D's lunch for just >about everything I saw. 11/23's and RSX-11M were far far cheaper, and >usually faster than anything running 11-D. Ah, you're talking of a later vintage than I am. I stopped doing -11 and -8 flavored work around 1973. After that I was exclusively -10s. > ..I know you are no great >Cutler fan, but that 11-M exec code was really really good. I've never said he was an incapable programmer. He was very good at flying those bits around. He was simply a fucking idiot. Fucking idiot and capable programmer need not be mutually exclusive. >> There was a typesetting something or other that was used to >> make the PDP-12 hardware handbook in 1971-ish. It did require >> that awful terminal known as a 37. But all of that "software" >> seemed to have disappeared by the time I got to be head of >> the RUNOFF group. Everyone I asked told me it didn't exist; >> it never existed; I was dreaming. Then you wonder why I'm >> paranoid. > >That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. >4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. Was it on an -8? I was never "allowed" to learn about the details of that project. I was a new hire and, therefore, not capable of understanding anything until they taught me how to use TECO [now put a very frustrated emoticon here gnashing at the bits]. > ..It was all in assembler of >course, heavily self modifying as was the fashion in those days. There >was only one comment line in the whole 4 inch stack of listing and no >documentation. Yup. I can vaguely remember what the programmer looked like; and the name that keeps popping into my forehead is Terry McCutcheon with a red flag waving; so that means that I'm a little bit wrong and a little bit right. I don't think it was Terry; I think it was a guy who worked on a lot of projects with Terry. Or maybe it was the other way around. >I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" >I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that >Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! Yup. You gotta remember that bit bumming was a necessary art in those days. The maintenance business hadn't happened yet; the developers did their own maintenance. The first wave of programmers hadn't died, been promoted or gone off to better company (there wasn't a "better" company back then). Comments were not needed other than a terse reminder for the programmer. > >The damn thing was dumped on me when I first joined DEC as a cocky >little brat. I guess you learned how to wipe your own nose real fast. That code was much better than the stuff that used macroes to generate code. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:24:08 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 40 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112670 In article , wrote: > In article <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, > Elliott Roper wrote: > >In article , wrote: > > >> There was a typesetting something or other that was used to > >> make the PDP-12 hardware handbook in 1971-ish. It did require > >> that awful terminal known as a 37. But all of that "software" > >> seemed to have disappeared by the time I got to be head of > >> the RUNOFF group. Everyone I asked told me it didn't exist; > >> it never existed; I was dreaming. Then you wonder why I'm > >> paranoid. > > > >That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. > >4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. > > Was it on an -8? I was never "allowed" to learn about the > details of that project. I was a new hire and, therefore, > not capable of understanding anything until they taught me > how to use TECO [now put a very frustrated emoticon here > gnashing at the bits]. It may have been developed on something else, but it ran on the 8 and it was easy enough to hack on the 8. Typesetting on the 8 brought those two together for me. My boss, Dave Mawson, showed me how to write teco-8 macros to write teco-8 macros to generate PAL-8 assembler to specify character width tables for Typeset-8. The sheer fiendishness of it! Teco has stuck with me ever since. I love it. If I had your supply of emoticons to hand, I'd insert one flicking back its long black cape and twirling its moustache. (Typeset-8 was too big to assemble on an 8. We'd take the source down to Latrobe Uni in Melbourne and assemble it on their 10.) Elliott ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 02 11:08:49 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3E00F1.B1297AAD@ev1.net> <240720021000183033%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVblw6duf6QNpP+L+PZ3fnw2W/WqbsE1spcIkdaEknv1ptMoeDVFczdX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2002 12:13:26 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newshub1.kdd1.nap.home.ne.jp!news.home.ne.jp!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!jpix!newsfeed.gol.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-208 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112725 In article <240720021000183033%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: >In article <3D3E00F1.B1297AAD@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond > wrote: > >> Elliott Roper wrote: >> > >> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> > That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. >> > 4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. It was all in assembler of >> > course, heavily self modifying as was the fashion in those days. There >> > was only one comment line in the whole 4 inch stack of listing and no >> > documentation. >> > I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" >> > I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that >> > Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! >> > >> A story like this was included in David Levy's book _Hackers_. >> Could the author above be Peter Samson??? > >God knows. In those days, even if you put a couple of comments in the >source, you'd never put your name on it. That's not true. The explanations are complicated and usually depend on the level of arrogance of the author. > >I was offered a contract to support a third party communications >package that had been added to a customer's Typeset-8 while the support >guy (Bob Smith) was going on a long course in Maynard. And you were young enough to not know any better than accept? ;-). > .. He warned in >advance, how whoever wrote it was total rubbish, bitter, twisted, with >a dark sense of humour and no sense of logic etc. He brought the source >over to walk me through it. > >Didn't take long at all ;-) Did you have to fix something while the cat was away? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 02 11:15:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ9d1wrDJdHVkQUKsYVdeTERtfSH78v5YF3XCPfE7GzUJFYruwFkVow X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2002 12:19:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-208 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112727 In article <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: >In article , wrote: > >> In article <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, >> Elliott Roper wrote: >> >In article , wrote: > >> >> >> There was a typesetting something or other that was used to >> >> make the PDP-12 hardware handbook in 1971-ish. It did require >> >> that awful terminal known as a 37. But all of that "software" >> >> seemed to have disappeared by the time I got to be head of >> >> the RUNOFF group. Everyone I asked told me it didn't exist; >> >> it never existed; I was dreaming. Then you wonder why I'm >> >> paranoid. >> > >> >That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. >> >4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. >> >> Was it on an -8? I was never "allowed" to learn about the >> details of that project. I was a new hire and, therefore, >> not capable of understanding anything until they taught me >> how to use TECO [now put a very frustrated emoticon here >> gnashing at the bits]. > >It may have been developed on something else, but it ran on the 8 and >it was easy enough to hack on the 8. The group I was in did a lot of the PDP-8 code entry work. We'ld type it in on the -10 and hand the stuff back to the programmer either on DECtape or papertape. A part of our service was to offer to do a build, and produce a CREF listing. We rarely did all that work on an -8. > >Typesetting on the 8 brought those two together for me. My boss, Dave >Mawson, showed me how to write teco-8 macros to write teco-8 macros to >generate PAL-8 assembler to specify character width tables for >Typeset-8. The sheer fiendishness of it! Teco has stuck with me ever >since. I love it. I don't know what DEC would have done if it had never got TECO. > >If I had your supply of emoticons to hand, I'd insert one flicking back >its long black cape and twirling its moustache. Take one; they're free :-). Nice emoticon; I didn't know I had one of those. > >(Typeset-8 was too big to assemble on an 8. We'd take the source down >to Latrobe Uni in Melbourne and assemble it on their 10.) Of course. That's how most of the -11 was developed. It's how the -20 was developed. TOPS-10 was the workhorse for every development effort that got spit out of DEC. And the PHBs honestly believed that VMS on a VAX could replace that. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 02 11:17:39 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaQN5zpyUrucRUr+ln04sxzcfQzRYaKbWgmlj95RHKPfHPR+iGNgECO X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2002 12:22:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-208 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112726 In article <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> I don't remember any of those VT5x doing graphics. That was just >> out its league. The VT100 came way later after the 50s. When I >> got mine, I got really, irritated because I had to "program" it. >> Why the hell should I have to program something when all I want >> it to do is act like a terminal? Most of that programming was >> to tell NOT to do anything. Do you know how difficult it is >> to tell something that's obviously brain damaged to not do >> anything? >> >And the keyboards of the VT-100's were *bad* for touch >typists... :-( I am sure that programming it was a pain, >but one had to deal with the keyboard basically *all* the >time. It [setting up the GDed device] was such a pain that I immediately classified it as a "guy thing". The VT100 designers gave the user 100 different ways to screw himself every morning BEFORE he could login to get any work done. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 02 11:19:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3E00F1.B1297AAD@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZGIhuf7eaogz4kLmAwNxvwN//xXSIAejQSlWZQAFDkA37FktEcMlMh X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2002 12:23:51 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-208 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112728 In article <3D3E00F1.B1297AAD@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Elliott Roper wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. >> 4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. It was all in assembler of >> course, heavily self modifying as was the fashion in those days. There >> was only one comment line in the whole 4 inch stack of listing and no >> documentation. >> I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" >> I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that >> Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! >> >A story like this was included in David Levy's book _Hackers_. >Could the author above be Peter Samson??? > The one who put that comment in? Nah, the name's not familiar. Somebody must have that PDP-12 handbook laying somewhere. It must have been published in 1971 or 1972 (I started working at DEC in July, 1971). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 02 11:23:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYqlywxSaXO5K2tjNowUhxgGstj6+29Ubn/raTi8/0a4Od5JPjf0je6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2002 12:27:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-208 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112730 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> It was flat on top (for ones very important accessories: listings, >> coffee mugs, and ashtrays), it had a little shelf one could but >> a steno pad (that's when I switched to using steno pads to keep >> notes and program snippets in), and it had a typable keys. >> It was also "cheap" enough so that we could each have one >> in our offices. I don't believe I ever had to call field >> service due to breakage. VR05s were always testing one's >> eyesight. I routinely dropped one before setting down to >> do any work with it. It was a physical incantation that >> usually worked. > >when they instituted a rule that you needed VP-level sign-off for >3270s in your office ... we did the business analysis that the 3-year >amortized cost of 3270 was less per month than a telephone that >everybody got on their desk as a matter of course. Wasn't it a PITA to get that gear? Here we are, in business of selling hard/software to customers without the ability to use that gear to produce those products. For instance, I couldn't believe how long it took people to realize that "sharing" a terminal to the -10 was not very productive and, in fact, became counterproductive. You wouldn't refuse to provide a pencil sharpener to people who used pencils to get your product out. /BAH > >that was just about the same time that some middle management >discovered that a number of corporate executives had started using >email ... and in a number of cases a whole organization's year's quota >for 3270s for engineers and programmers got rerouted to middle >management so they could appear to be doing email also ... aka all of >a sudden it became a status symbol. > >later on, such things became more institutionalized ... aka nearly all >the internal PS2m80s going to managers' offices even tho they never >used it for anything but 3270 emulation reading email. > > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1027465500 12.237.69.162 (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:05:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:05:00 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:05:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112766 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > I don't remember any of those VT5x doing graphics. That was just > out its league. The VT100 came way later after the 50s. When I > got mine, I got really, irritated because I had to "program" it. > Why the hell should I have to program something when all I want > it to do is act like a terminal? Most of that programming was > to tell NOT to do anything. Do you know how difficult it is > to tell something that's obviously brain damaged to not do > anything? > And the keyboards of the VT-100's were *bad* for touch typists... :-( I am sure that programming it was a pain, but one had to deal with the keyboard basically *all* the time. IMHO a terminal or personal computer has to have a good keyboard and an easily readable screen...or it is just grinding the user into the ground. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D3E00F1.B1297AAD@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1027466561 12.237.69.162 (Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:22:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:22:41 GMT Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 23:22:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112761 Elliott Roper wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. > 4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. It was all in assembler of > course, heavily self modifying as was the fashion in those days. There > was only one comment line in the whole 4 inch stack of listing and no > documentation. > I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" > I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that > Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! > A story like this was included in David Levy's book _Hackers_. Could the author above be Peter Samson??? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:00:18 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <240720021000183033%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3E00F1.B1297AAD@ev1.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112731 In article <3D3E00F1.B1297AAD@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > Elliott Roper wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. > > 4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. It was all in assembler of > > course, heavily self modifying as was the fashion in those days. There > > was only one comment line in the whole 4 inch stack of listing and no > > documentation. > > I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" > > I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that > > Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! > > > A story like this was included in David Levy's book _Hackers_. > Could the author above be Peter Samson??? God knows. In those days, even if you put a couple of comments in the source, you'd never put your name on it. I was offered a contract to support a third party communications package that had been added to a customer's Typeset-8 while the support guy (Bob Smith) was going on a long course in Maynard. He warned in advance, how whoever wrote it was total rubbish, bitter, twisted, with a dark sense of humour and no sense of logic etc. He brought the source over to walk me through it. Didn't take long at all ;-) ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:03:06 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 55 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112751 Charles Richmond wrote: >> > And the keyboards of the VT-100's were *bad* for touch > typists... :-( I am sure that programming it was a pain, > but one had to deal with the keyboard basically *all* the > time. I'd agree with Charles there - dunno where they got the springs for those keys, from extra-strong mousetraps perhaps? :) > > IMHO a terminal or personal computer has to have a good > keyboard and an easily readable screen...or it is just > grinding the user into the ground. > Best keyboards I've ever used.... (highly subjective, I know) - Visual 200 - glorious "enhanced" VT52 clone in a much smaller box with a lovely detachable keyboard.. - ACT Sirius 1/Victor 9000 - Research Machines 380Z - Apple //e - SGI's Indigo2/Indy (etc) keyboard. I often use this on my PC as it's just a nice big heavy clicky PS/2 keyboard. - later Vic-20/early Commodore 64 - when they keys got properly shaped and made of heavier plastic. - VT220 - Atari 520ST (perfect layout, just a little too slack though) - Sun type V (slack-ish feel and imperfect layout, but key pitch, spacing and travel are right) - IBM PC AT (original layout. Hated the small keys on big bases of the PC and XT) - TI Travelmate 2000 laptop - Tadpole Sparcbook laptop (I think this keyboard is actually a top-end IBM Thinkpad one) I've currently got a fairly reasonable Compaq keyboard on my office PC Worst non-cheap keyboards I've ever used (excluding el-cheapo PCs and rubber-keyed home micros) - Televideo TVI910 (like a VT100 but not quite as hard) - VT100 - Intertec Superbrain (seemed not to do rollover properly and were made of horrific plastic) - Early BBC Micro - far too slack. - Camputers Lynx - whose idea was it to put the RETURN key there ? - Grundy Newbrain - like putting your fingers in a bowl of jelly. - early Triumph-Adler laptops - Sinclair QL - Uncle Clive's first proper keyboard and Lord it sucked. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "serious sport has nothing to do with fair play" - orwell ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:23:02 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-128-11.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: venus.btinternet.com 1027524182 14664 213.1.128.11 (24 Jul 2002 15:23:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:23:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112748 wrote in message news:ahm6fq$3mb$15@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > Wasn't it a PITA to get that gear? Here we are, in business > of selling hard/software to customers without the ability > to use that gear to produce those products. For instance, > I couldn't believe how long it took people to realize that > "sharing" a terminal to the -10 was not very productive and, > in fact, became counterproductive. You wouldn't refuse to > provide a pencil sharpener to people who used pencils to get > your product out. I think a lot of places work like that, the majority in fact. Only one PPOE (INMOS) was an exception, there was a ton of gear floating around there. Most of it was "reject" stuff (eg : C rev T800s) or boards which didn't quite cut the mustard. The faults were usually minor, so it wasn't a big deal and it was plenty good enough to get the job done. Getting software was no prob at all. I think getting proper full on production gear was probably just as tricky though. :P On the other hand I think I've already posted the tale about when I came to switch my development PC on (at another PPOE) and found that the marketing bods had ripped the graphics card out of it. One had even left a note and pleaded with me to complete a piece of coding - kinda hard without a working PC. DANGER WILL ROBINSON, YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE IS CRITICAL ! Cheers, Rupert ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:29:07 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Lines: 27 Message-ID: <34hmha.1d3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-Trace: betanews.demon.co.uk 1027524606 13500 193.237.4.110 (24 Jul 2002 15:30:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:30:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!colt.net!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!betanews.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112719 According to Pete Fenelon : ... good keyboards ... > - later Vic-20/early Commodore 64 - when they keys got properly shaped > and made of heavier plastic. ... bad keyboards ... > - Early BBC Micro - far too slack. I remember from the time that each keyboard-type had its own strong adherents, who were equally outspoken about the "evils" of the other type! Personally, I've always preferred the BBC's keyboard and its ilk over the Commode's; although I could appreciate that the latter was also good, I don't really like the "damped" feel. Right now I'm using an IBM RAII keyboard, which I like in most aspects and is probably at a half-way point between "clattery" and "damped", but it's still a bit too damped for my liking. Probably the best one I used was from a '97/98-vintage Optimax, which was about the loudest keyboard I'd encountered. :) Now if only they could do something about the horrible PC-style layout - unfortunately it seems that every manufacturer and his dog has now changed over to the PC layout. :( :( :( Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc http://www.paunix.org SDF Public Access UNIX: UNIX accounts and webspace! ###### Message-ID: <3D3EF10E.5B1D9DD9@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1027528030 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:27:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:27:10 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:27:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!12.120.28.37.MISMATCH!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112765 Pete Fenelon wrote: > > [nip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Best keyboards I've ever used.... (highly subjective, I know) > > - Visual 200 - glorious "enhanced" VT52 clone in a much smaller box with > a lovely detachable keyboard.. > - ACT Sirius 1/Victor 9000 > - Research Machines 380Z > - Apple //e > - SGI's Indigo2/Indy (etc) keyboard. I often use this on my PC as it's > just a nice big heavy clicky PS/2 keyboard. > - later Vic-20/early Commodore 64 - when they keys got properly shaped > and made of heavier plastic. > - VT220 > - Atari 520ST (perfect layout, just a little too slack though) > - Sun type V (slack-ish feel and imperfect layout, but key pitch, spacing > and travel are right) > - IBM PC AT (original layout. Hated the small keys on big bases of the > PC and XT) > - TI Travelmate 2000 laptop > - Tadpole Sparcbook laptop (I think this keyboard is actually a top-end > IBM Thinkpad one) > The *best* keyboards I have used are the Decwriter keyboard and the keyboard on the IBM selectric II. They both had a tight, springy feel. Among the worst I have used are the VT-220 and VT-420 keyboards. They have a dead feel...something like the keys being mounted in chalk. Since these keyboards were round, I used to refer to them as "Ken Olson lumbar supports". -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D3EF2C0.547A759A@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Canine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.162 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1027528465 12.237.69.162 (Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:34:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:34:25 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:34:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!12.120.28.37.MISMATCH!attla2!ip.att.net!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112760 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, > Elliott Roper wrote: > >In article , wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Typesetting on the 8 brought those two together for me. My boss, Dave > > Mawson, showed me how to write teco-8 macros to write teco-8 macros to > > generate PAL-8 assembler to specify character width tables for > > Typeset-8. The sheer fiendishness of it! Teco has stuck with me ever > > since. I love it. > > I don't know what DEC would have done if it had never got TECO. > I recently downloaded a rock song from some sight...the words say something about all I need to hack is TECO and DDT. Perhaps someone else here can post the download address... > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Of course. That's how most of the -11 was developed. It's how > the -20 was developed. TOPS-10 was the workhorse for every > development effort that got spit out of DEC. And the PHBs > honestly believed that VMS on a VAX could replace that. > I seriously doubt that PHB's honestly believe anything. They believe what it is most politically expedient for them to believe at any time...even if that is totally opposite of what they said yesterday... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:08:39 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> <3D3EF10E.5B1D9DD9@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112753 Charles Richmond wrote: > The *best* keyboards I have used are the Decwriter keyboard and the > keyboard on the IBM selectric II. They both had a tight, springy feel. The RML 380Z keyboard has a fairly similar feel to the DECwriters I've used, although most of the DECwriters I've come across have been in a fairly clapped out state and may not have been at their best :) > Among the worst I have used are the VT-220 and VT-420 keyboards. > They have a dead feel...something like the keys being mounted in The 420 felt like a dead-flesh Hewlett Packard PC or workstation keyboard, the 220 and 320 had a bit of spring to them. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "serious sport has nothing to do with fair play" - orwell ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:09:41 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3EF2C0.547A759A@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112754 Charles Richmond wrote: >> > I recently downloaded a rock song from some sight...the words say > something about all I need to hack is TECO and DDT. Perhaps someone > else here can post the download address... Alice's PDP-10: http://www.hactrn.net/sra/alice/ pete -- pete@fenelon.com "serious sport has nothing to do with fair play" - orwell ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 02 12:43:52 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3EF2C0.547A759A@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb6wh29BZYFMVzuz3sgUXNJ15Vuv5P1XEm8xDpnQo0b8p+99C3uzfVy X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jul 2002 13:48:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-176 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112813 In article <3D3EF2C0.547A759A@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <230720021724086610%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, >> Elliott Roper wrote: >> >In article , wrote: >> > >> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> > Typesetting on the 8 brought those two together for me. My boss, Dave >> > Mawson, showed me how to write teco-8 macros to write teco-8 macros to >> > generate PAL-8 assembler to specify character width tables for >> > Typeset-8. The sheer fiendishness of it! Teco has stuck with me ever >> > since. I love it. >> >> I don't know what DEC would have done if it had never got TECO. >> >I recently downloaded a rock song from some sight...the words say >something about all I need to hack is TECO and DDT. Perhaps someone >else here can post the download address... Technically, EDDT. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 02 11:51:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <260720021142475636%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYgjU9QuwKQ9NU8XISlUo7bSnfaWyAhXJaN69t5h6NWyiM3aBAfiOxU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jul 2002 12:56:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-235-254 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112804 In article <260720021142475636%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: >In article , Eric Smith > wrote: > >> Elliott Roper writes: >> > That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. > >> > I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" >> > I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that >> > Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! >> >> The one I'd heard about was "RIP JSB", from a 1995 alt.sys.pdp10 >> posting by Jack H. Stevens, which itself was an updated writeup of >> a Spring 1984 DECUS session by Peter Hurley: >> >> Peter Sampson, who wrote FORTRAN II, put exactly one comment in it. >> That comment, which commemorated the numerological identity of the >> octal equivalent of 1000 and the year of Johann Sebastian Bach's >> death, read "JSB RIP". >> >> The full posting is available at: >> >> http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tops-history.txt > >A wonderful read >> >> Maybe the comment in the program you're talking about was inspired by >> Sampson's code, or vice versa. > >My guess, after reading that story, is that it was a Peter Sampson >tribute. >Ken Olsen's job must have been like herding cats in those early days. It was harder. He was a day guy. A lot of the others were night guys. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 20:30:36 +0100 Organization: Nextra UK Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> <3D3EF10E.5B1D9DD9@ev1.net> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 57.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: thorium.cix.co.uk 1027625649 8381 212.35.234.57 (25 Jul 2002 19:34:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@net.nextra.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:34:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!shale.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.nextra.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112782 In article , Pete Fenelon in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >> The *best* keyboards I have used are the Decwriter keyboard and the >> keyboard on the IBM selectric II. They both had a tight, springy feel. > >The RML 380Z keyboard has a fairly similar feel to the DECwriters I've >used, although most of the DECwriters I've come across have been in a >fairly clapped out state and may not have been at their best :) > Even a brand new LA30 keyboard was poor, compared with ASR33. Very little tactile feedback, no depth of travel, accepted a doiuble [1] key press and you couldn't see what you typed. I'd just about got the hang of this touch-typing thing on the '33; fingers and eyes in auto-mode, brain in one line lookahead mode; I could never get the eyes to work in 6 character lookbehind mode. If mixed case was needed, the keyboard could generate it, but l.c. printed as U.C. It was easier to watch what your fingers were typing than the printed character. At least I could sit back in the chair, and relax neck and shoulder muscles, but my touch-typing skill deteriorated / evaporated. Old DECwriters never die, they get converted to X/Y coordinate PCB drilling machines. :-) 1. Intentional illustrative typo. Impossible on an ASR33. Regards, David P. ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 25 Jul 2002 19:22:38 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 25 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.66.107.17 X-Trace: 25 Jul 2002 19:39:42 -0700, 209.66.107.17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!209.66.107.17 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112857 Elliott Roper writes: > That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. > 4K because it ran in 4K words of PDP-8. It was all in assembler of > course, heavily self modifying as was the fashion in those days. There > was only one comment line in the whole 4 inch stack of listing and no > documentation. > I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" > I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that > Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! The one I'd heard about was "RIP JSB", from a 1995 alt.sys.pdp10 posting by Jack H. Stevens, which itself was an updated writeup of a Spring 1984 DECUS session by Peter Hurley: Peter Sampson, who wrote FORTRAN II, put exactly one comment in it. That comment, which commemorated the numerological identity of the octal equivalent of 1000 and the year of Johann Sebastian Bach's death, read "JSB RIP". The full posting is available at: http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tops-history.txt Maybe the comment in the program you're talking about was inspired by Sampson's code, or vice versa. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:42:47 +0100 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <260720021142475636%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <210720021752305221%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <220720021654497245%elliott@yrl.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.5.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112808 In article , Eric Smith wrote: > Elliott Roper writes: > > That might have been the 4K paper tape typesetting program. > > I remember the comment line to this day "/RIP LVB" > > I think the contents of the instruction equated to the year that > > Beethoven died. I guess the author was making a point. Bastard! > > The one I'd heard about was "RIP JSB", from a 1995 alt.sys.pdp10 > posting by Jack H. Stevens, which itself was an updated writeup of > a Spring 1984 DECUS session by Peter Hurley: > > Peter Sampson, who wrote FORTRAN II, put exactly one comment in it. > That comment, which commemorated the numerological identity of the > octal equivalent of 1000 and the year of Johann Sebastian Bach's > death, read "JSB RIP". > > The full posting is available at: > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tops-history.txt A wonderful read > > Maybe the comment in the program you're talking about was inspired by > Sampson's code, or vice versa. My guess, after reading that story, is that it was a Peter Sampson tribute. Ken Olsen's job must have been like herding cats in those early days. The 4K typesetting programming system dates from 1968 or thereabouts. I first saw the code in 1973. I had seen it in use in 1971 at the Sydney Morning Herald. I could not find a date for Sampson's Fortran, but it is almost certainly earlier than 1968 ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Lines: 21 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:55:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.240.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net 1027747705 62.255.240.131 (Sat, 27 Jul 2002 06:28:25 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 06:28:25 BST Organization: ntl Business News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112892 In article , Pete Fenelon writes: [...] > - Early BBC Micro - far too slack. The BBC used proper keyswitches, but interestingly they were only half travel (2mm). I really liked them. I particularly liked the BBC Master keyboards, which had a slightly larger key pitch and a different layout with proper directional keys and a numeric keypad. > - Sinclair QL - Uncle Clive's first proper keyboard and Lord it sucked. 'Proper'? That was a 'proper' keyboard? It was a nasty rubber keyboard with nasty had plastic key caps that never went down straight and jammed. It sucked *beyond belief*. -- +- David Given --McQ-+ "Why should we put ourselves out of our way to | dg@cowlark.com | serve posterity? For what has posterity ever done | (dg@tao-group.com) | for us?" --- Sir Boyle Roche +- www.cowlark.com --+ ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 09:00:30 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.12-20020427 ("Sugar") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.6-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112939 David Given wrote: > > The BBC used proper keyswitches, but interestingly they were only half > travel (2mm). I really liked them. I particularly liked the BBC Master > keyboards, which had a slightly larger key pitch and a different layout > with proper directional keys and a numeric keypad. One has to wonder if the BBC Micro keys were deliberately designed for smaller hands, given that schools were seen as a major market for that particular machine... > >> - Sinclair QL - Uncle Clive's first proper keyboard and Lord it sucked. > > 'Proper'? That was a 'proper' keyboard? It was a nasty rubber keyboard > with nasty had plastic key caps that never went down straight and > jammed. It sucked *beyond belief*. I never took the keys off one to find out what horrors lurked beneath. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "serious sport has nothing to do with fair play" - orwell ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:28:23 +0100 Message-ID: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.29) Organization: None Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: userkq17.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1027765243 news.dial.pipex.com 234 62.188.105.163 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed02.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112947 In article , David Given wrote: > travel (2mm). I really liked them. I particularly liked the BBC Master > keyboards, which had a slightly larger key pitch and a different layout > with proper directional keys and a numeric keypad. *And* a proper UK keyboard layout! Actually, most UK computers then used a UK keyboard and it was the descent of the world into PC-dom that gave us the US-layout-with-"-on-the-2 keyboard. I doubt if most people nowadays even realise that it was ever different. I wonder how the PC keyboard affected other keyboard layouts, for example, the German or French ones? Dave Daniels ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:40:10 +0100 Message-ID: <4b5c9b7c95dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.29) Organization: None Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: userli92.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1027846603 news.dial.pipex.com 8511 62.188.112.242 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!auucp0.ams.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112944 In article , Pete Fenelon wrote: > One has to wonder if the BBC Micro keys were deliberately designed for > smaller hands, given that schools were seen as a major market for that > particular machine... The BBC Micro keyboard was the normal size, IIRC. The keyboard on my BBC Master is certainly standard size. I think it is a nice keyboard to use, apart from the somewhat cheap-looking keytops - A machine from the time when microcomputers were still interesting. Dave Daniels ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 17:05:34 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <3D3DFCCC.46B9C43F@ev1.net> <4b5c9b7c95dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-128-201.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1027875934 18732 213.1.128.201 (28 Jul 2002 17:05:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 17:05:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112973 "Dave Daniels" wrote in message news:4b5c9b7c95dave_daniels@argonet.co.uk... > In article , > Pete Fenelon wrote: > > One has to wonder if the BBC Micro keys were deliberately designed for > > smaller hands, given that schools were seen as a major market for that > > particular machine... > > The BBC Micro keyboard was the normal size, IIRC. The keyboard on Pretty much. I had an early BBC 'B' and the surface of the keycaps was visibly slighty larger than later ones. I did wonder why they did that, but in practice it didn't make a huge diff. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 01 Aug 02 09:58:41 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <1280.978T2060T5984873@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-031.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113161 In article hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >In article <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, >Dave Daniels wrote: > >>*And* a proper UK keyboard layout! Actually, most UK computers then >>used a UK keyboard and it was the descent of the world into PC-dom >>that gave us the US-layout-with-"-on-the-2 keyboard. I doubt if most >>people nowadays even realise that it was ever different. > >Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a >manual typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer >keyboards. Teletype keyboards, being mechanical, stay pretty close to ASCII bit patterns and have " on the 2 and @ to the right of P. Early computer keyboards emulated this layout. I have a couple of Uniscope 100s, and their keyboards are this way. So are later Sperry->Unisys terminals, such as the UTS-400 and UTS-20, which were in use well into the '80s. I tried looking around for pictures of other terminals but all I could find was a VT05 - and it also has " over the 2. My H19 has @ over the 2. -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 1 Aug 2002 15:34:50 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113143 In article <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, Dave Daniels wrote: >*And* a proper UK keyboard layout! Actually, most UK computers then >used a UK keyboard and it was the descent of the world into PC-dom >that gave us the US-layout-with-"-on-the-2 keyboard. I doubt if most >people nowadays even realise that it was ever different. Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a manual typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer keyboards. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:13:06 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.228.39.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uni2.dk X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1028229318 130.228.39.63 (Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:15:18 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:15:18 MET DST Organization: UNI2 Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!uninett.no!news.net.uni-c.dk!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113146 > Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a manual > typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer keyboards. > > hawk I dont know if the scandinavian keyboard is very much different, but shift-2 is the ", and ALT-GR is the @ Of other "triple" functions I can mention the 3 ( £ and #), 4 ($ and ¤), 8 ( ( and [), 9 ( ) and ]) and 0 ( = and } ). On the other hand, we have the Æ Ø and Å Nico ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:15:24 +0100 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-Trace: betanews.demon.co.uk 1028226605 24017 193.237.4.110 (1 Aug 2002 18:30:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:30:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!mutlu.news.demon.net!demon!betanews.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113145 According to Dr. Richard E. Hawkins : > Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a manual > typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer keyboards. Seems to be some confusion somewhere. The US ones normally have the @ above the 2, the UK ones (including the one I'm typing on now, but IIRC all the others I've used) have the " above the 2 (the @ is near the return key above the ') Chris. -- "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" Neil, '84 http://cbh.paunix.org My stuff, including genealogy, other things, etc http://www.paunix.org SDF Public Access UNIX: UNIX accounts and webspace! ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.5.2 UNIX) Date: 01 Aug 2002 18:39:02 GMT Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-203-241.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1028227142 news.dial.pipex.com 236 62.190.203.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed03.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed02.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113132 On 1 Aug 2002 15:34:50 GMT, Dr. Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >In article <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, >Dave Daniels wrote: > >>*And* a proper UK keyboard layout! Actually, most UK computers then >>used a UK keyboard and it was the descent of the world into PC-dom >>that gave us the US-layout-with-"-on-the-2 keyboard. I doubt if most >>people nowadays even realise that it was ever different. > >Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a manual >typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer keyboards. All my keyboards have @ above the 2 _except_ the Intel-based computers with UK keyboards and my old TRS-80. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:07:48 +0100 Organization: Nextra UK Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Reply-To: ddotpowell@icuknet.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: 84.234.35.212.in-addr.arpa.ip-pool.cix.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: thorium.cix.co.uk 1028232697 8967 212.35.234.84 (1 Aug 2002 20:11:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@net.nextra.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:11:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!peernews.cix.co.uk!news.nextra.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113184 In article , hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >In article <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, >Dave Daniels wrote: > >>*And* a proper UK keyboard layout! Actually, most UK computers then >>used a UK keyboard and it was the descent of the world into PC-dom >>that gave us the US-layout-with-"-on-the-2 keyboard. I doubt if most >>people nowadays even realise that it was ever different. > >Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a manual >typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer keyboards. > On any "natural" ASCII keyboard shift + numbers clears the 20octal bit.. Dig out your old ASR33 from the garage... Regards David P. ###### From: Lusus Naturae Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 2 Aug 2002 06:02:05 GMT Organization: Cheebye Reseach Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-173.newsdawg.com User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.19 (i686)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113153 Stan Barr wrote: >>>*And* a proper UK keyboard layout!... >>Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a manual >>typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer keyboards. > All my keyboards have @ above the 2 _except_ the Intel-based computers with > UK keyboards and my old TRS-80. I have precisely one keyboard in my possesion with " over 2, but it's an ancient Royal manual typewriter that puts @ on the same key as the cents-symbol. Gotta love the old boat-anchor, though. Scares the shit out of the cat when I write letters to Mum. -Lusus ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:08:26 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <1280.978T2060T5984873@kltpzyxm.invalid> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1028297306 177 128.29.114.13 (2 Aug 2002 14:08:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:08:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.tufts.edu!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113156 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: >(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >>Dave Daniels wrote: >>>*And* a proper UK keyboard layout! Actually, most UK computers then >>>used a UK keyboard and it was the descent of the world into PC-dom >>>that gave us the US-layout-with-"-on-the-2 keyboard. I doubt if most >>>people nowadays even realise that it was ever different. >> >>Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a >>manual typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer >>keyboards. >Teletype keyboards, being mechanical, stay pretty close to ASCII >bit patterns and have " on the 2 and @ to the right of P. Early >computer keyboards emulated this layout. This keyboard layout (commonly called "bit-paired") can usually be identified by the absence of any shift character above the digit zero (the parenthises are shifted 8 and 9). As you noted, the old mechanical keyboards of the TTY33 and its ilk used a mechanical shift lever, and to avoid extra complexity the encoding matrix always selected the same 5-bit pattern for a key regardless of the shift state. " ) Example: 2 key 9 key 0 key -------- --------- --------- --------- unshift x011 0010 x011 1001 x011 0000 shift x010 0010 x010 1001 (blocked) Note that a shifted "zero" key would be x010 0000 -- which is the same as what you get with the spacebar. I never figured out just why someone felt it necessary to block SHIFT-0 but I assume that there was some reason for it. The "x" above is the parity bit, which might be mark, space, odd, or even, depending on the attitude of whoever installed the machine. With the end of the era of mechanical keyboards and the increasing use of computers by secretarial staff, the bit-paired layout disappeared from the scene except where a.f.c regulars get together and the traditional typewriter layout -- called "type-paired" -- prevailed. Joe Morris ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 2 Aug 2002 15:03:36 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> <1280.978T2060T5984873@kltpzyxm.invalid> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113125 In article <1280.978T2060T5984873@kltpzyxm.invalid>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: >In article hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu >(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) writes: >>In article <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk>, >>Dave Daniels wrote: >>>*And* a proper UK keyboard layout! Actually, most UK computers then >>>used a UK keyboard and it was the descent of the world into PC-dom >>>that gave us the US-layout-with-"-on-the-2 keyboard. I doubt if most >>>people nowadays even realise that it was ever different. >>Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a >>manual typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer >>keyboards. >Teletype keyboards, being mechanical, stay pretty close to ASCII >bit patterns and have " on the 2 and @ to the right of P. Early >computer keyboards emulated this layout. I have a couple of >Uniscope 100s, and their keyboards are this way. So are later >Sperry->Unisys terminals, such as the UTS-400 and UTS-20, which >were in use well into the '80s. I tried looking around for pictures >of other terminals but all I could find was a VT05 - and it also >has " over the 2. My H19 has @ over the 2. Yes, but he's trying to blame PC keyboards, and nearly every PC ever made had either a keyboard encoder chip or used the processor (On the Model 1 TRS-80, you could noticably slow the machine by putting your hand down on the keyboard . . .) hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 2 Aug 2002 15:06:50 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <4b5c89edbbdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slytherin.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113128 In article , David Powell wrote: >In article , > hawk@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) in >>Wait a minute, I don't recall *ever* seing that on anything but a manual >>typewriter; the @ is above the 2 on our electric/computer keyboards. >On any "natural" ASCII keyboard shift + numbers clears the 20octal >bit.. Dig out your old ASR33 from the garage... That's one I managed to never actually own, much to my father's relief (and he'd probably strap it to my car on a return trip if I'd left one in his garage! He's still sending back bits of my childhood and early adultry on every trip . . .). However, I nearly bought one for 50 cents about 5 years ago at Iowa State, until it occurred to me that a) I had nowhere to put it, and b) I'd have to move it, and c) I didn't have the time to fix it . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 02 Sep 2002 21:16:07 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 23 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87bs7gzg4o.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1030978704 20873 202.154.80.9 (2 Sep 2002 14:58:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:58:24 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p025.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.uwa.edu.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115805 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article , > David Powell wrote: > >Yup, on the 11/70. Our 11/70 folk were pissed off with DEC when IAS > >became "unsupported". > They should. IAS was something that worked well. That is odd. IAS stayed with DEC when the 11 SW went to Memtec, as it was what stood between the silos and WWIII. SAC really did not like the idea of depending on an Irish Company for SW support. At some point, it just dropped off the face of the earth un-noticed. :( Anyone still got a source kit somewhere? -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 02 11:12:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <87bs7gzg4o.fsf@prep.synonet.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbhSOm1XHxTrBtKa7hwQB/zeI15mLgQty6d5gvvVZ+bvtAuTrLsfq/O X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Sep 2002 12:24:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news1.dtag.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-175 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:115853 In article <87bs7gzg4o.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article , >> David Powell wrote: > >> >Yup, on the 11/70. Our 11/70 folk were pissed off with DEC when IAS >> >became "unsupported". > >> They should. IAS was something that worked well. > >That is odd. IAS stayed with DEC when the 11 SW went to Memtec, as >it was what stood between the silos and WWIII. SAC really did not >like the idea of depending on an Irish Company for SW support. At >some point, it just dropped off the face of the earth un-noticed. :( That makes no sense; I thought IAS came from DEC guys in the UK. I don't know why but Ian Service comes to mind whenever I hear about IAS. Digital seemed to have a habit of divorcing the hardware it sold off from the software. I have no idea how that brain damage happened. > >Anyone still got a source kit somewhere? > I should hope so. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: VT50, VT51, VT52, VT55, VT61, VT62 terminals (was Re: Weird...) Date: 06 Sep 2002 02:20:52 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 47 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <87k7m0qovv.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <3D350B74.428C9FA8@trailing-edge.com> <6SdZ8.241422$vq.13013978@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <190720022229265936%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <6r0iju8l591k7q3kqpsckb796ovcpedqvk@4ax.com> <200720021340094989%elliott@yrl.co.uk> <87bs7gzg4o.fsf@prep.synonet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1031299087 17504 202.154.80.9 (6 Sep 2002 07:58:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:58:07 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.2 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p007.qv1-01.dial.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!127.0.0.1!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:116092 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <87bs7gzg4o.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, > Paul Repacholi wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> In article , > >> David Powell wrote: > >> >Yup, on the 11/70. Our 11/70 folk were pissed off with DEC when IAS > >> >became "unsupported". > >> They should. IAS was something that worked well. > >That is odd. IAS stayed with DEC when the 11 SW went to Memtec, as > >it was what stood between the silos and WWIII. SAC really did not > >like the idea of depending on an Irish Company for SW support. At > >some point, it just dropped off the face of the earth > >un-noticed. :( > That makes no sense; I thought IAS came from DEC guys in the UK. I > don't know why but Ian Service comes to mind whenever I hear about > IAS. That's right, the IAS group was at DEC Reading. I remember having a very enjoyable war-story session with one of the group. driving through the middle of the Watts riots was part of it form memory. (Then a week later, I managed to drive through South Harlem, much to the discomfort of all at the bar at ICCD83. Didn't worry me at the time...) > Digital seemed to have a habit of divorcing the hardware it > sold off from the software. I have no idea how that brain damage > happened. All hail the great Bob... Pity he was not given a Maxwell. > >Anyone still got a source kit somewhere? > I should hope so. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.