Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt4.0.1381) Cancel-Lock: sha1:xgVIe9/DQbXSeVoX7T9oSwIW6Mg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:13:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.79.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1025640818 209.244.79.78 (Tue, 02 Jul 2002 13:13:38 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 13:13:38 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:111161 "Russell P. Holsclaw" writes: > The earlier support for the 2250 as a console, in OS/360, was actually > cooler than the "device independent" console software later built into > the system to support other display-type devices. One of the neat > features was a "Help" facility that could be selected via light-pen. > It displayed syntax diagrams graphically for the various console > operator commands. there were a number of 2250 "models" ... a 2250m1 direct channel attach with its own controller, a 2250m4 .... which came with its own 1130 and some others. in the late '60s, somebody at the science center ported spacewars from pdp to the 1130/2250m4 (my kids played it in the mid '70s). lincoln labs had one or more 2250m1 attached to 360/67 and somebody there wrote fortran graphics package for CMS to drive the screen. the university i was at also had 2250m1 .... and I hacked the CMS editor with the 2250m1 support code from lincoln labs to generate a full screen editor ... circa fall '68. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Date: 18 Jul 02 10:44:11 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <610.964T594T6443799@kltpzyxm.invalid> References: <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-435.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112430 In article lfw@airmail.net (Larry__Weiss) writes: >Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually >produce output on current raster-scan monitors? The original Amiga's "Copper" is a rudimentary coprocessor that can stomp on the display registers independently of the main processor. People used it to write some pretty impressive graphics demos back around 1986. -- cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs) I'm really at moc.subyks if you read it the right way. Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855. ###### Message-ID: <3D21EE27.2162C67E@earthlink.net> From: Walter Spector Organization: Not much. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:17:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.183.8.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1025633855 63.183.8.89 (Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:17:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:17:35 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.socal.rr.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:111157 Larry__Weiss wrote: > > Lee Courtney wrote: > > > > I don't know if the character generation is the same but I believe this is > > the same idea: > > http://www.cathodecorner.com/ > > No, sorry, but that's not at all like the images that the CDC-6600's console > could display. Sure it is. The characters were drawn via analog circuitry steering the electron beam. Certain o'scopes (such as the Tek 7904) draw characters the same way. The CDC 'scopes could draw characters in either 64 chars/line mode, 32 chars/line, or 16 chars/line. There was also a 'dot' mode for doing graphics. The console was directly connected to one of the I/O channels. DSD, the Dynamic System Display PP program, directly positioned the beam and wrote characters by sending X/Y coordinates and text down the channel. DSD would have to resend the screen many times per second to keep the phosphors bright and avoid flickering. It should also be noted that the '026' PP program was an early example of a full screen text editor. (Source code dates from 1967.) Combined with the DIS 'shell', it was a very powerful programming/debugging environment. The unfortunate thing was that end users on typical low-speed asych terminals never got to experience some of the the special joys of using these systems. It wasn't until the early '80s that full screen editors became widely available on NOS. Walt -...- Walt Spector (w6ws at earthlink dot net) ###### From: "Russell P. Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Lines: 56 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:27:33 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.183.117.237 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1025638165 216.183.117.237 (Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:29:25 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:29:25 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:111166 > No, sorry, but that's not at all like the images that the CDC-6600's console > could display. Read the other posts in this thread about the variety of > graphics applications that were written for display on the 6600's console > displays. > > I hope someone posts a pointer to an actual photograph of a working console. > > Th most similar thing to a CDC-6600 console display that everyone has seen > (at least in the movies) is the older single-color and round air-traffic > controller displays. > OK, I've never seen the CDC-6600 console except in pictures, but a "calligraphic" display is one in which the graphics and characters are displayed by moving the electron beam around the face of the screen in a manner similar to a plotter. Maintaining a steady image requires repeating the pattern of movement repeatedly to refresh the screen. (The Tektronix displays eliminated the continuous refresh requirement by using a storage tube that stored the image electrostatically on the face of the screen itself, although the image would gradually deteriorate over time and had to be refreshed from time to time as well, although not as frequently). IBM had a similar device, used in early CAD applications, called the 2250 Vector Graphic Display. It had a pretty good sized screen with a square aspect ratio, and a small buffer (about 4K, IIRC) for storing "graphic orders"... a kind of binary command language for producing lines, arcs, characters, and such. The CRT had a long-persistence phosphor, like a radar tube, so that it didn't flicker too badly when it was displaying a large amount of graphic and text data. OS/360 also supported the device as an operator's console, but only the more "upscale" customers used one of these instead of the usual 1052 Selectric typewriter console. The earlier support for the 2250 as a console, in OS/360, was actually cooler than the "device independent" console software later built into the system to support other display-type devices. One of the neat features was a "Help" facility that could be selected via light-pen. It displayed syntax diagrams graphically for the various console operator commands. The basic technology, I gather, was drawn from IBM's work on the displays for the Sage computer, which was also the ancestor of the systems used in Air Traffic Control. Both the Sage, and the 2250 were built at IBM's Kingston, NY plant. -- Russ Holsclaw ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:52:51 -0400 Lines: 46 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3d220494$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1025639572 204.250.0.238 (2 Jul 2002 15:52:52 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:111149 "Larry__Weiss" wrote in message = news:41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net...= > Lee Courtney wrote: > > "Jeff Woolsey" wrote in message > > news:3d215922$1@news.meer.net... > > > In article , > > > Gregory Travis wrote: > > > > > > >Other 6600 "firsts" included the use of a video display = operator's > > console > > > > > > "Video" is a smidge inaccurate. It's a very glorified = oscilloscope > > > (Tek scopes of the day had similar calligraphic characters for > > > readouts). > >=20 > > I don't know if the character generation is the same but I believe = this is > > the same idea: > > http://www.cathodecorner.com/ > >=20 >=20 > No, sorry, but that's not at all like the images that the CDC-6600's = console > could display. Read the other posts in this thread about the variety = of > graphics applications that were written for display on the 6600's = console > displays. >=20 > I hope someone posts a pointer to an actual photograph of a working = console. As Jeff posted over in folklore, try this link: http://berlin.ccc.de/~hans/vcfe2/index_4.htm It's not the dual-scope 6612 (DD60), but the later CC545... I've got a halftone pic of one scope on a 6612 showing a plot of some function from a FoRTRAN program, will dig it up tonight... -dq ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 75 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:58:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1025672305 24.71.223.147 (Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:58:25 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 22:58:25 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!ps01-sjc1!news.webusenet.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:111259 On Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:27:33 -0600, "Russell P. Holsclaw" wrote: > >> No, sorry, but that's not at all like the images that the CDC-6600's >console >> could display. Read the other posts in this thread about the >variety of >> graphics applications that were written for display on the 6600's >console >> displays. >> >> I hope someone posts a pointer to an actual photograph of a working >console. >> >> Th most similar thing to a CDC-6600 console display that everyone >has seen >> (at least in the movies) is the older single-color and round >air-traffic >> controller displays. >> > >OK, I've never seen the CDC-6600 console except in pictures, but a >"calligraphic" display is one in which the graphics and characters are >displayed by moving the electron beam around the face of the screen in >a manner similar to a plotter. Maintaining a steady image requires >repeating the pattern of movement repeatedly to refresh the screen. >(The Tektronix displays eliminated the continuous refresh requirement >by using a storage tube that stored the image electrostatically on the >face of the screen itself, although the image would gradually >deteriorate over time and had to be refreshed from time to time as >well, although not as frequently). > >IBM had a similar device, used in early CAD applications, called the >2250 Vector Graphic Display. It had a pretty good sized screen with a >square aspect ratio, and a small buffer (about 4K, IIRC) for storing >"graphic orders"... a kind of binary command language for producing >lines, arcs, characters, and such. The CRT had a long-persistence >phosphor, like a radar tube, so that it didn't flicker too badly when >it was displaying a large amount of graphic and text data. OS/360 >also supported the device as an operator's console, but only the more >"upscale" customers used one of these instead of the usual 1052 >Selectric typewriter console. > >The earlier support for the 2250 as a console, in OS/360, was actually >cooler than the "device independent" console software later built into >the system to support other display-type devices. One of the neat >features was a "Help" facility that could be selected via light-pen. >It displayed syntax diagrams graphically for the various console >operator commands. > >The basic technology, I gather, was drawn from IBM's work on the >displays for the Sage computer, which was also the ancestor of the >systems used in Air Traffic Control. Both the Sage, and the 2250 were >built at IBM's Kingston, NY plant. IIRC the DEC lines had similar scopes with built in graphics processors accessing a list of display instructions in main memory, at least on the 11 (GT-40) and 15 (GT-15?). Programming used short (relative) and long (absolute) vector commands, with characters drawn as subroutines of short vector commands called from the main display list. Command lists had to be kept short enough to draw within the video refresh interval, which was set by the power frequency (50/60Hz), to avoid flicker. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: swctd.arl.army.mil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3D237B26.C21B7D5F@null.net> Sender: news@arl.army.mil (News Administration ) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory X-Accept-Language: en References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:31:02 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news2.wam.umd.edu!cadig2.usna.navy.mil!info.usuhs.mil!oanews!arlnews!blaze!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:111468 Brian Inglis wrote: > IIRC the DEC lines had similar scopes with built in graphics > processors accessing a list of display instructions in main > memory, at least on the 11 (GT-40) and 15 (GT-15?). http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ has some more information. There were numerous similar display systems from around 1970 through 1985. Evans & Sutherland's "Picture System 1" was among the high-end. Near the end of that time frame, vector-to-raster conversion started being used to convert compatible graphics instructions to frame buffers for raster display, which (being driven by the TV market) eventually became the cheapest useful display technology; Megatek was one of the big names in that approach. If anybody knows of a working VS60 (VT48 + VR48), I'd be happy to take it off your hands, refurbish it, and attach it as second bus master (shared RAM) to one of my Unibus PDP-11s. Heck, I'd settle for extensive documentation so we could add it to the SIMH software simulation package. ###### From: David Ball Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:33:28 -0700 Reply-To: dball@booksnbytes.com Message-ID: References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.3 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.3 X-Trace: news.bnb-lp.com 1026970408 192.168.1.3 (17 Jul 2002 22:33:28 -0700) Organization: BnB, L.P. - send abuse complaints to dball@bnb-lp.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!easynews!news.bnb-lp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112467 On Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:27:33 -0600, "Russell P. Holsclaw" wrote: >OK, I've never seen the CDC-6600 console except in pictures, but a >"calligraphic" display is one in which the graphics and characters are >displayed by moving the electron beam around the face of the screen in >a manner similar to a plotter. Maintaining a steady image requires >repeating the pattern of movement repeatedly to refresh the screen. That sounds like the way it worked. We once had a system console that was temporarily installed above a powerful electric motor (which was under the raised flooring).The motor caused things to move around on the screen slightly. There must have been a slight delay as each section of the display was drawn because things that were painted together seemed to move in formation around the screen. For instance, column headings seemed to move together as a group and column data seemed to move together as another group. It was rather interesting to watch. There might be another explanation for why this happened, but I always thought it was because certain things on the screen were drawn together. I don't remember the model of console, but it was in 1981 when I was working there. -- David Ball ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: swctd.arl.army.mil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> Sender: news@arl.army.mil (News Administration ) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory X-Accept-Language: en References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:10:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.238.2.15!skynet.be!skynet.be!oanews!arlnews!blaze!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112462 David Ball wrote: > wrote: > >... Maintaining a steady image requires > >repeating the pattern of movement repeatedly to refresh the screen. That was usually done automatically by having the drawing instructions is a "display file" (later more usually called a "display list") that was interpreted by an engine that drove the CRT beam. The display file was cretaed and maintained by software on the host computer. > must have been a slight delay as each section of the display was > drawn because things that were painted together seemed to move in > formation around the screen. That could happen if the host computer didn't get the entire image updated between retraces. ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:15:20 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 33 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <3D36DB88.71F7BDED@airmail.net> References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu Jul 18 10:19:14 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !c]_91k-WL>%\U"7O(n5 (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.airnews.net!cabal13.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112411 "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > > David Ball wrote: > > wrote: > > >... Maintaining a steady image requires > > >repeating the pattern of movement repeatedly to refresh the screen. > > That was usually done automatically by having the drawing instructions > is a "display file" (later more usually called a "display list") that > was interpreted by an engine that drove the CRT beam. The display > file was cretaed and maintained by software on the host computer. > > > must have been a slight delay as each section of the display was > > drawn because things that were painted together seemed to move in > > formation around the screen. > > That could happen if the host computer didn't get the entire image > updated between retraces. > I coded using display lists in the mid 1970's (not for the 6600 console, but for what I remember to have been Vector General gear) and found it quite fun. You could get all sorts of animations by dynamically modifying them while they were being interpreted. You did have to be careful that you modified the jump-instructions just right so that at any time you had a reasonable presentation. Once you had a sophisticated display list built-up, it just required small modifications to it to create the animations. Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually produce output on current raster-scan monitors? - LarryW ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:10:57 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-204-154.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: venus.btinternet.com 1027008657 20623 213.122.204.154 (18 Jul 2002 16:10:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:10:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112442 "Larry__Weiss" wrote in message news:AC824A7FA8C958B4.C6989FF5CF9343C1.DA064C95500987C7@lp.airnews.net... [SNIP] > Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually > produce output on current raster-scan monitors? The vectrex gaming console has an emulator for it ! http://www.classicgaming.com/museum/vectrex/ Cheers, Rupert ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: swctd.arl.army.mil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3D3702F5.CF686F37@null.net> Sender: news@arl.army.mil (News Administration ) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: U.S. Army Research Laboratory X-Accept-Language: en References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:03:33 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!oanews!arlnews!blaze!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112469 Larry__Weiss wrote: > I coded using display lists in the mid 1970's (not for the 6600 console, > but for what I remember to have been Vector General gear) and found > it quite fun. You could get all sorts of animations by dynamically > modifying them while they were being interpreted. You did have to be > careful that you modified the jump-instructions just right so that at > any time you had a reasonable presentation. Yes, indeed. Such displays could be *very* responsive, and one did need to ensure that the concurrent access to the display list by the main CPU and by the display processor would not result in unwanted displays. On most such systems, one could build a new chunk of graphic instructions outside the "current" display list, then as a last step store (atomically) a single word to redirect the display thread through the new chunk. If you did that in the opposite order the display processor could execute the codes faster than the main host could store them, reaching uninitialized garbage that would give a strange display when interpreted. > Once you had a sophisticated display list built-up, it just required > small modifications to it to create the animations. For example, if a "subpicture" was specified using relative vectors, one could move the entire subpicture's image by changing one or two vectors at its entry point. > Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually > produce output on current raster-scan monitors? The E11 PDP-11 simulator (http://www.dbit.com) includes VT11 emulation. My own experience was on the VT11's big brother, VS60 (aka GT62, VT48). When I first arrived at the Ballistic Research Laboratory, Mike Muuss had just gotten a solid-modeling system running using a Vector General display system on a PDP-11/70. That evolved through Megatek (display list scan-converted for raster display) to SGI and other more modern display devices in the BRL-CAD package (http://ftp.arl.army.mil/brlcad/). I think some if not all of the recent crop of PC 3D video cards have programmable graphics with a graphics-engine interpreter. ###### Message-ID: <3D379FAE.CE294922@null.net> From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> <3D3702F5.CF686F37@null.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GC-Trace: gv1-PclophQEnQZR6BBlbFT0nBeosQ9uOyiQTm5DA== Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:11:12 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-XfgID31j7H/FFU+8jnnGNQSUEp0LExox97FYnIIK14bgzJ09yB29d/lxlqE4cpn0pglxWH1DdueNNh/!o1KUB4wbLwhSMYueQZcylTSsY7fMsPyNvCyioPMSwb8qFPrWR+4yu6PIzU6jTqhT6VIBV83s X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 05:11:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112470 "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > My own experience was on the VT11's big brother, VS60 (aka GT62, VT48). As long as we're on the subject, I have a story that's too good not to share. One of the VS60 developers explained that the VR48 analog unit was located beneath the CRT instead of encircling it (as competitive units did) because the primary expected customer, GM, complained about the styling of the bulky monitor and insisted on a sleeker look. The increased coaxial cable runs required for the shipped configuration reduced the video bandwidth to about 1/3 of what it would have been. ###### From: "Kelli Halliburton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.90.104.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr16.news.prodigy.com 1027202293 ST000 166.90.104.51 (Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:58:13 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:58:13 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDON^JT[C\LZFJ_PJEPE@CTZB\XIDY^LLRMIWIWZEPYAFNS[QCW[RL\DXUGIANEYZEFNNFZ^_KSC[NVMOSDGKFWEXR@KO@ZJSWWBB\TTPLL_OSG\H][CODFOKCJL@DXG[ORM\Q^GVLSRED^K_OW_MCZFGR_HZY_I@A_B\K@BP\PE_TAZ]VDGWVWCP]JM Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 21:58:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr16.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!7115ad8a!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112604 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message news:ah6pad$k4f$1@venus.btinternet.com... > > Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually > > produce output on current raster-scan monitors? > > The vectrex gaming console has an emulator for it ! > > http://www.classicgaming.com/museum/vectrex/ Yes, but that's not a raster-scan monitor, now is it. ;) Although, if one were to use a Vectrex emulator... ###### From: "Kelli Halliburton" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> <610.964T594T6443799@kltpzyxm.invalid> Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.90.104.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr16.news.prodigy.com 1027202678 ST000 166.90.104.51 (Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:04:38 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:04:38 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: [[PAPDON^JT[C\LZFJ_PJEPE@CTZB\XIDY^LLRMIWIWZEPYAFNS[QCW[RL\DXUGIANEYZEFNNFZ^_KSC[NVMOSDGKFWEXR@KO@ZJSWWBB\TTPLL_OSG\H][CODFOKCJL@DXG[ORM\Q^GVLSRED^K_OW_MCZFGR_HZY_I@A_B\K@BP\PE_TAZ]VDGWVWCP]JM Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:04:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr16.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!7115ad8a!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112601 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:610.964T594T6443799@kltpzyxm.invalid... > >Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually > >produce output on current raster-scan monitors? > > The original Amiga's "Copper" is a rudimentary coprocessor that > can stomp on the display registers independently of the main > processor. People used it to write some pretty impressive > graphics demos back around 1986. I suppose that Amiga "copper lists" are to raster displays what "display lists" are to vector displays. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.cdc Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 04:50:39 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <50F723405B6BFCB7.9620EB809FCFA439.F2B1D34FA3F21C6C@lp.airnews.net> <3D1F56EE.DAA8337E@mindspring.com> <3d215922$1@news.meer.net> <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-137-232.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1027227039 23939 213.1.137.232 (21 Jul 2002 04:50:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 04:50:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:112573 "Kelli Halliburton" wrote in message news:V1l_8.253$zL3.11674729@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com... > "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message > news:ah6pad$k4f$1@venus.btinternet.com... > > > > Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually > > > produce output on current raster-scan monitors? > > > > The vectrex gaming console has an emulator for it ! > > > > http://www.classicgaming.com/museum/vectrex/ > > Yes, but that's not a raster-scan monitor, now is it. ;) Although, if one > were to use a Vectrex emulator... Well, if you poked around that site you'd see the link to the emulator. "Yo damn f00" - Mr T. Cheers, Rupert :) ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <41A80145C33CD120.90B4D5627DD56E3F.67C6F534643C7BA2@lp.airnews.net> <3D36CC71.CC6B749@null.net> <610.964T594T6443799@kltpzyxm.invalid> Subject: Re: 6600 Console was Re: CDC6600 - just how powerful a machine was it? Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:12:05 -0400 Lines: 16 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3d4690a6$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1028034726 204.250.0.238 (30 Jul 2002 09:12:06 -0400) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:113018 > In article > > lfw@airmail.net (Larry__Weiss) writes: >=20 > >Are there modern emulations of such display lists that actually > >produce output on current raster-scan monitors? (Going back to Larry's question)- Would MAME count? It emulates vector displaylist technology on raster displays... in case you're not familiar with it, MAME is an arcade game system emulator. Download a ROM image into it and play games like Atari's TEMPEST... -dq