From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 13 Jun 2002 23:13:59 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109744 Unless this was an elaborate joke to troll slashdot, someone is builidng new IMSAIs . . . www.imsai.net hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> From: itsy bitsy meowbot Organization: a tyranny of meowing fascist censor cabalists User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:54:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.154.207.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verizon.net X-Trace: nwrddc02.gnilink.net 1024012475 141.154.207.5 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:54:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:54:35 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamfinder.gnilink.net!nwrddc02.gnilink.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109717 Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > Unless this was an elaborate joke to troll slashdot, someone is builidng > new IMSAIs . . . > > www.imsai.net Not a gag, this is the same company that took over IMSAI production when IMS went bankrupt. > hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this The new version accommodates an ATX board alongside the Zilog system, so there are some appealingly appalling possibilities there. ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:59:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.220.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1024016351 24.43.220.117 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:59:11 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:59:11 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!novia!novia!teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!66.185.86.143.MISMATCH!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109749 "itsy bitsy meowbot" wrote in message news:3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net... > Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > > Unless this was an elaborate joke to troll slashdot, > > someone is builidng new IMSAIs . . . > > > > www.imsai.net > > Not a gag, this is the same company that took > over IMSAI production when IMS went bankrupt. > > > hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this > [snip...] Rationally, you are right. It's a lot of money. But wouldn't it make a great teaching tool, being able to key in instructions, single step programs and interface directly with peripherals? And fun. ---Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 13 Jun 2002 20:03:33 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-406.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109739 In article <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net>, itsy says... > >Richard E. Hawkins wrote: >> Unless this was an elaborate joke to troll slashdot, someone is builidng >> new IMSAIs . . . >> >> www.imsai.net > >Not a gag, this is the same company that took over IMSAI production when >IMS went bankrupt. I was amused by the plea for 8080A programming manuals on the Fischer-Freitas website. I have a full set of original Intel manuals. They want to borrow, scan, and return them. Fat chance I'd ever part with my manuals, especially for free to a company that intends to profit from them. I'll trade em one week with my 8080A library in return for an *original* IMSAI. But they'll still have major problems. The manuals' copyrights are still active and held by Intel. Scanning these old manuals and posting them on the web would be a violation of the DMCA. How's that for irony? >> hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this > >The new version accommodates an ATX board alongside the Zilog system, so > there are some appealingly appalling possibilities there. > It's just not going to be the same. It couldn't. Let me make a reverse analogy. Sometime in the mid 1980s, Darryl Shelby got an idea to produce a new limited edition of 1965 Shelby Mustang models. Since a 1965 design would not be legal for production under 1980s safety laws, he bought plain old 65 Mustangs, stripped them down to the chassis, replaced the engines, and added newly manufactured Shelby packages just like the originals. In essence, it was a 1965 Shelby built in 1985. Shelby scrapped the entire project when he saw how crappy the results were. He said that the new Shelbys were completely unlike the originals, and that no matter how you build it, you can't build a new car out of old parts. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:36:52 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-05!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109723 On 13 Jun 2002 20:03:33 -0700, Charles Eicher wrote: >>> hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this >>The new version accommodates an ATX board alongside the Zilog system, so >> there are some appealingly appalling possibilities there. >It's just not going to be the same. It couldn't. Probably not, but I may well get one should it leave the realm of vaporware. I've got an IMSAI chassis stuffed full of cards, and a pair of 8-inch disk drives, and a bunch of software. I'd love to get that basket full of 8-inch floppies onto one CD-ROM and be able to use it easily. Until now, I'd been planning on doing something along the lines of a program that would read an entire floppy and XMODEM it out the second serial port, then receive the image on a modern system, which could then be used on an emulator. The planned system would make that job nearly trivial, by turning it into an exercise of simply mounting each disk in turn and running PIP to get it onto the PC host. ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 14 Jun 2002 00:06:43 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-632.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109736 In article , jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx says... > >On 13 Jun 2002 20:03:33 -0700, Charles Eicher wrote: >>>> hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this >>>The new version accommodates an ATX board alongside the Zilog system, so >>> there are some appealingly appalling possibilities there. >>It's just not going to be the same. It couldn't. > >Probably not, but I may well get one should it leave the realm of vaporware. >I've got an IMSAI chassis stuffed full of cards, and a pair of 8-inch disk >drives, and a bunch of software. I'd love to get that basket full of 8-inch >floppies onto one CD-ROM and be able to use it easily. Until now, I'd been >planning on doing something along the lines of a program that would read an >entire floppy and XMODEM it out the second serial port, then receive the >image on a modern system, which could then be used on an emulator. The >planned system would make that job nearly trivial, by turning it into an >exercise of simply mounting each disk in turn and running PIP to get it onto >the PC host. Forgive me, but your whole idea is just inherently wrong. It reminds me of something I saw the other day, an old 1980s Camaro with a fake Lamborghini front and rear spoiler kit on it. The old 80s Camaros are cool just as they are. ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:15:31 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109721 On 14 Jun 2002 00:06:43 -0700, Charles Eicher wrote: >>Probably not, but I may well get one should it leave the realm of vaporware. >>I've got an IMSAI chassis stuffed full of cards, and a pair of 8-inch disk >>drives, and a bunch of software. I'd love to get that basket full of 8-inch >>floppies onto one CD-ROM and be able to use it easily. Until now, I'd been >>planning on doing something along the lines of a program that would read an >>entire floppy and XMODEM it out the second serial port, then receive the >>image on a modern system, which could then be used on an emulator. The >>planned system would make that job nearly trivial, by turning it into an >>exercise of simply mounting each disk in turn and running PIP to get it onto >>the PC host. >Forgive me, but your whole idea is just inherently wrong. It reminds me of >something I saw the other day, an old 1980s Camaro with a fake Lamborghini front >and rear spoiler kit on it. The old 80s Camaros are cool just as they are. True. I'm not going to get rid of the original, by any means; however, I can foresee the day when I will no longer be able to keep it running, and would like to preserve the software I have and be able to use it beyond that time. It's the same thing as running old OS/360 stuff: you can't buy a machine any more to run it, nor can you get parts for 360s even if you wanted to. Along comes Hercules and presto! preserving the software becomes more than an exercise in library management. Preserving old hardware is important, but so is preserving old software, and that includes having a platform on which to run it. ###### Message-ID: <3D0A06B0.85DE3CA2@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:09:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.252.50.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1024067399 158.252.50.14 (Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:09:59 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:09:59 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109730 Jay Maynard wrote: > Probably not, but I may well get one should it leave the realm of vaporware. > I've got an IMSAI chassis stuffed full of cards, and a pair of 8-inch disk > drives, and a bunch of software. I'd love to get that basket full of 8-inch > floppies onto one CD-ROM and be able to use it easily. Until now, I'd been > planning on doing something along the lines of a program that would read an > entire floppy and XMODEM it out the second serial port, then receive the > image on a modern system, which could then be used on an emulator. The > planned system would make that job nearly trivial, by turning it into an > exercise of simply mounting each disk in turn and running PIP to get it onto > the PC host. I'm surprised there isn't a users group for 8080 stuff which has tools available to do this. In the 68XX world there's the FLEX User's Group from which tools can be gotten or who can point you to tools for creating .dsk images which can be read on a PC. The PC can then be used as a disk drive for an actual FLEX 68XX system. I haven't tried to use these as my 68XX system and 8 inch disks still function fine, but I'm probably going to just for back up purposes when I get the time. There are a number of 68XX emulators out there as well which will run FLEX by emulating a 68XX on a PC along with the usual peripherals. Apparently it even reads the .dsk files as if they were actual floppies in actual drives. Again I've got to believe someone has done this for the 8080/Z80 world, it was so much bigger. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 14 Jun 2002 10:39:23 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 39 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.84.45.26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024076364 28433 127.0.0.1 (14 Jun 2002 17:39:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2002 17:39:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109781 "Don Chiasson" wrote in message news:... > "itsy bitsy meowbot" wrote in message > news:3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net... > > Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > > > Unless this was an elaborate joke to troll slashdot, > > > someone is builidng new IMSAIs . . . > > > > > > www.imsai.net > > > > Not a gag, this is the same company that took > > over IMSAI production when IMS went bankrupt. > > > > > hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this > > > [snip...] > > Rationally, you are right. It's a lot of money. > But wouldn't it make a great teaching tool, being able > to key in instructions, single step programs and > interface directly with peripherals? And fun. > But you don't need an Imsai do do that. One could just manufacture a "front panel card" that would provide the same effect for a more recent computer. Or, do it in software, and emulate an old, simple to use CPU. Or, build a simple computer, using an older CPU, that has a front-panel. A quarter century later, and one could come up with a less complicated front-panel circuit than back then. About 1980, there was an article in Byte about bootstrapping an 8085 (which was easier to handle than the 8080), using simple things like some copper pads gouged out of circuit board and a stylus for the "input switches", and showing how to get going without a ROM. It was simple to build, and to get going (I think one appeal of the 1802 in hobby circles was because it was designed so you needed no ROM to get going), showed the rudiments, yet you weren't very far from the raw basics. Michael ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:34:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-128-54.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1024079658 25300 213.1.128.54 (14 Jun 2002 18:34:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:34:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109774 "Michael Black" wrote in message news:6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com... > "Don Chiasson" wrote in message news:... > > "itsy bitsy meowbot" wrote in message > > news:3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net... > > > Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > > > > Unless this was an elaborate joke to troll slashdot, > > > > someone is builidng new IMSAIs . . . > > > > > > > > www.imsai.net > > > > > > Not a gag, this is the same company that took > > > over IMSAI production when IMS went bankrupt. > > > > > > > hawk, not ready to cough up $1000 over this > > > > > [snip...] > > > > Rationally, you are right. It's a lot of money. > > But wouldn't it make a great teaching tool, being able > > to key in instructions, single step programs and > > interface directly with peripherals? And fun. > > [SNIP] > going (I think one appeal of the 1802 in hobby circles was because > it was designed so you needed no ROM to get going), showed the rudiments, > yet you weren't very far from the raw basics. ROMless boot is a neat thing IMHO... I hate the idea of having to preserve PROM/EPROM/Flash images in order to just boot the damned thing. Front panels are definately a good thing. :) I think one of the major challenges of "modern" computer preservation will be extracting all the various images from the horde of embedded EPROMs on a modern PCB. At least with old gear you can see the damned thing in the first place ! Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:12:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.220.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1024085553 24.43.220.117 (Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:12:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:12:33 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109794 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message news:aedcv9$omk$1@helle.btinternet.com... [snip...] > > ROMless boot is a neat thing IMHO... I hate the idea of > having to preserve PROM/EPROM/Flash images in order to > just boot the damned thing. Front panels are definately > a good thing. :) > > I think one of the major challenges of "modern" computer > preservation will be extracting all the various images > from the horde of embedded EPROMs on a modern PCB. At > least with old gear you can see the damned thing in the > first place ! Boot? One of the amazing things to see is turning on a computer whence nothing happens. The boot process assumes all sort of things are present. It is mind bending to turn on a computer and realize that nothing will happen until you key in a program. No operating system or program of any sort. Just empty memory. Yes, you can simulate it. No, you do not want to do this all the time but it is a learning experience programming on bare silicon. I had a fascinating session with my eleven year old daughter while I was tearing apart an old machine. She started asking what would happen if certain things were not there and it turned into quite a session. ---Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Sat, 15 Jun 02 09:18:55 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ3JuNJxaUTw7UkqKTKOuUDV/qW8ztFORfDtjh2smmISCYPsRqphMMF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2002 12:54:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!eusc.inter.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-34 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109820 In article <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) writes: >> > >> > Rationally, you are right. It's a lot of money. >> > But wouldn't it make a great teaching tool, being able >> > to key in instructions, single step programs and >> > interface directly with peripherals? And fun. >> > >> But you don't need an Imsai do do that. One could just manufacture >> a "front panel card" that would provide the same effect for a more >> recent computer. > >No, you need something without a cache. Otherwise what shows up on >the lights is too far removed from the program. Yes! I mean, I'm not correcting your no; I'm argreeing with it. > >> Or, do it in software, and emulate an old, simple to use CPU. > >Absolutely not. A big part of the goal here is demystification -- the >students don't believe it, but I remain convinced that ``and these >wires here go straight from the side of the CPU chip to the motor >controllers'' is very important in getting them to believe that >there's no magic involved. Or, rather, they learn what the real magic is ;-). A couple of years ago, I encountered a guy who had used a simulator that demonstrated a piece of gear worked. The problem was that the piece of gear didn't exist. I've even read about a guy who thinks that certain weapons work perfectly because the simulation was successful. >Blowing my department's horn for a moment, I really think what we do >works well, and maybe even better than a front panel: a really simple >single-chip computer (we use a Motorola HC11) with the on-board >peripherals wired straight to the sensors and actuators of a Lego >robot. And it's fun, too! Neat. One of these days, I'm going to get over there. I'd like to play with one. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Hank Oredson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <3D0A5F59.F1AB4E63@ev1.net> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:28:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.81.204.114 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1024108115 12.81.204.114 (Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:28:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:28:35 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109821 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message news:3D0A5F59.F1AB4E63@ev1.net... > Rupert Pigott wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > ROMless boot is a neat thing IMHO... I hate the idea of > > having to preserve PROM/EPROM/Flash images in order to > > just boot the damned thing. Front panels are definately > > a good thing. :) > > > > I think one of the major challenges of "modern" computer > > preservation will be extracting all the various images > > from the horde of embedded EPROMs on a modern PCB. At > > least with old gear you can see the damned thing in the > > first place ! > > > Also EPROM's do *die* eventually...they get to where you > can *not* read them anymore. So if you wait too long to > save the information on the EPROM, you will *lose* it... Which is what happened to my Imsai boot eprom. The good news is that I have it's image. The bad news is that the image is on a DSDD 8" floppy which can only be read on said Imsai system :-) -- ... Hank Hank: http://horedson.home.att.net W0RLI: http://w0rli.home.att.net ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 15 Jun 2002 00:45:10 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 44 Message-ID: <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1024123510 16866 128.123.64.113 (15 Jun 2002 06:45:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2002 06:45:10 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109809 blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) writes: > > > > Rationally, you are right. It's a lot of money. > > But wouldn't it make a great teaching tool, being able > > to key in instructions, single step programs and > > interface directly with peripherals? And fun. > > > But you don't need an Imsai do do that. One could just manufacture > a "front panel card" that would provide the same effect for a more > recent computer. No, you need something without a cache. Otherwise what shows up on the lights is too far removed from the program. > Or, do it in software, and emulate an old, simple to use CPU. Absolutely not. A big part of the goal here is demystification -- the students don't believe it, but I remain convinced that ``and these wires here go straight from the side of the CPU chip to the motor controllers'' is very important in getting them to believe that there's no magic involved. > Or, build a simple computer, using an older CPU, that has a > front-panel. Isn't that the IMSAI? > A quarter century later, and one could come up with a less complicated > front-panel circuit than back then. About 1980, there was an > article Does the new one really use the same circuits? I didn't get that impression. Blowing my department's horn for a moment, I really think what we do works well, and maybe even better than a front panel: a really simple single-chip computer (we use a Motorola HC11) with the on-board peripherals wired straight to the sensors and actuators of a Lego robot. And it's fun, too! -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: "Sellam Ismail" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.232.64.100 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1024153021 12.232.64.100 (Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:57:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:57:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:57:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109802 > I was amused by the plea for 8080A programming manuals on the Fischer-Freitas > website. I have a full set of original Intel manuals. They want to borrow, scan, > and return them. Fat chance I'd ever part with my manuals, especially for free > to a company that intends to profit from them. I'll trade em one week with my > 8080A library in return for an *original* IMSAI. But they'll still have major Gee, are your manuals gold plated or something? The last I checked I had perhaps a dozen sets of these manuals. They're not rare, and not worth an original IMSAI, but they are worth a favor to an old hacker. So who's the actual profiteer here? Lighten up. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 15 Jun 2002 10:45:34 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 11 Message-ID: <1b8z5g8p8x.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1024159532 7304 128.123.64.113 (15 Jun 2002 16:45:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jun 2002 16:45:32 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109806 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > Neat. One of these days, I'm going to get over there. I'd like > to play with one. Well, come on down! -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 15 Jun 2002 09:54:18 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-975.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109815 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com says... > >In article <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >>blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) writes: >>> > >>> > Rationally, you are right. It's a lot of money. >>> > But wouldn't it make a great teaching tool, being able >>> > to key in instructions, single step programs and >>> > interface directly with peripherals? And fun. >>> > >>> But you don't need an Imsai do do that. One could just manufacture >>> a "front panel card" that would provide the same effect for a more >>> recent computer. >> >>No, you need something without a cache. Otherwise what shows up on >>the lights is too far removed from the program. > >Yes! I mean, I'm not correcting your no; I'm argreeing with it. > > >> >>> Or, do it in software, and emulate an old, simple to use CPU. >> >>Absolutely not. A big part of the goal here is demystification -- the >>students don't believe it, but I remain convinced that ``and these >>wires here go straight from the side of the CPU chip to the motor >>controllers'' is very important in getting them to believe that >>there's no magic involved. > >Or, rather, they learn what the real magic is ;-). A couple >of years ago, I encountered a guy who had used a simulator that >demonstrated a piece of gear worked. The problem was that the >piece of gear didn't exist. I've even read about a guy who >thinks that certain weapons work perfectly because the simulation >was successful. Ah, you have almost hit on my pet peeve. I have repeatedly lectured some people I know that work in weapons design that when you design something, it will PROBABLY work just the way you designed it. Leaving aside the issue of failures, I ask these people to consider what their weapon will look like from the viewpoint of the target, and consider that these weapons will someday be used to KILL people. Some of them get a wide-eyed pale look on their face, I can instantly tell that they've never actually considered the ethical implications of their work. > > > >>Blowing my department's horn for a moment, I really think what we do >>works well, and maybe even better than a front panel: a really simple >>single-chip computer (we use a Motorola HC11) with the on-board >>peripherals wired straight to the sensors and actuators of a Lego >>robot. And it's fun, too! > >Neat. One of these days, I'm going to get over there. I'd like >to play with one. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 15 Jun 2002 10:01:36 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-153.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109812 In article <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01>, "Sellam says... > >> I was amused by the plea for 8080A programming manuals on the >Fischer-Freitas >> website. I have a full set of original Intel manuals. They want to borrow, >scan, >> and return them. Fat chance I'd ever part with my manuals, especially for >free >> to a company that intends to profit from them. I'll trade em one week with >my >> 8080A library in return for an *original* IMSAI. But they'll still have >major > >Gee, are your manuals gold plated or something? The last I checked I had >perhaps a dozen sets of these manuals. They're not rare, and not worth an >original IMSAI, but they are worth a favor to an old hacker. So who's the >actual profiteer here? > >Lighten up. I have previously offered my books to non-profit hackers at cover price. Fischer-Freitas isn't in that category. I have boxes and boxes of old 8080 programming manuals, many predate the IMSAI and were most likely used in its design. Yes, they're gold. ###### Message-ID: <3D0B95F6.5A2A60FE@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1024162342 12.237.69.87 (Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:32:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:32:22 GMT Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:32:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109838 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > >Blowing my department's horn for a moment, I really think what we do > >works well, and maybe even better than a front panel: a really simple > >single-chip computer (we use a Motorola HC11) with the on-board > >peripherals wired straight to the sensors and actuators of a Lego > >robot. And it's fun, too! > > Neat. One of these days, I'm going to get over there. I'd like > to play with one. > IIRC, Lego robots are available "over-the-counter" to just about anybody. Perhaps you can get one of the HC11 systems and a Lego robot of your own to work with. If he has *not* seen such things, this might be very interesting to your nephew. Something where I could immediately see the results of what I did...always appealed to the kid in *me*... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Sun, 16 Jun 02 09:27:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1b8z5g8p8x.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZLOLixzJZ9uHQCy/tx6WafCmuU5fUVBhxC5KvJbuerkKFyNT9l9s2x X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2002 13:03:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-139 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109870 In article <1b8z5g8p8x.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >> Neat. One of these days, I'm going to get over there. I'd like >> to play with one. > >Well, come on down! It's on my list. I just don't know when I'll get the left side of the map. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Sun, 16 Jun 02 09:30:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3D0B95F6.5A2A60FE@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYhiEZIOWIroQXyuEI06yvtNvLHZpmfJAJCUekMb+rNQdzsEL/t03e8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2002 13:06:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-139 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109873 In article <3D0B95F6.5A2A60FE@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, >> Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >> > >> > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> > >> >Blowing my department's horn for a moment, I really think what we do >> >works well, and maybe even better than a front panel: a really simple >> >single-chip computer (we use a Motorola HC11) with the on-board >> >peripherals wired straight to the sensors and actuators of a Lego >> >robot. And it's fun, too! >> >> Neat. One of these days, I'm going to get over there. I'd like >> to play with one. >> >IIRC, Lego robots are available "over-the-counter" to just >about anybody. Perhaps you can get one of the HC11 systems and >a Lego robot of your own to work with. If he has *not* seen >such things, this might be very interesting to your nephew. His younger brother would dig it. I don't think the older one likes to do things that requires physical work. >Something where I could immediately see the results of what >I did...always appealed to the kid in *me*... I'm learning, or rather, trying to teach me about stuff like that. At moment, I'm trying to learn how to make a mess with wallboard compound. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Sellam Ismail" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.232.64.100 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1024192226 12.232.64.100 (Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:50:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:50:26 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 01:50:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109849 > >Gee, are your manuals gold plated or something? The last I checked I had > >perhaps a dozen sets of these manuals. They're not rare, and not worth an > >original IMSAI, but they are worth a favor to an old hacker. So who's the > >actual profiteer here? > > > >Lighten up. > > I have previously offered my books to non-profit hackers at cover price. Being at there's no cover price on these, I assume that means you gave them away, as would be the noble thing to do? > Fischer-Freitas isn't in that category. Hmm. Fischer-Freitas supports IMSAI products. I'm sure there's lots of money in that these days. > I have boxes and boxes of old 8080 > programming manuals, many predate the IMSAI and were most likely used in its > design. Yes, they're gold. Congratulations. Now you can retire. ###### Message-ID: <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:22:16 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: 1024194139 8957 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0902.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109877 Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > >Gee, are your manuals gold plated or something? The last I checked I had > > >perhaps a dozen sets of these manuals. They're not rare, and not worth > an > > >original IMSAI, but they are worth a favor to an old hacker. So who's > the > > >actual profiteer here? > > > > > >Lighten up. > > > > I have previously offered my books to non-profit hackers at cover price. > > Being at there's no cover price on these, I assume that means you gave them > away, as would be the noble thing to do? Most of my mid-late-70's Intel books have cover prices in the $2.00 to $4.00 range, although (like most data books) I'm sure Intel was giving them away for free. I never understood the psychology of putting a "price" on something that nobody ever pays for. Maybe the idea is "hey, this says it is worth something, I'm going to read it instead of the one that's marked free"? Tim. ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 16 Jun 2002 00:43:05 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-846.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109867 In article , "Sellam says... > >> >Gee, are your manuals gold plated or something? The last I checked I had >> >perhaps a dozen sets of these manuals. They're not rare, and not worth >an >> >original IMSAI, but they are worth a favor to an old hacker. So who's >the >> >actual profiteer here? >> > >> >Lighten up. >> >> I have previously offered my books to non-profit hackers at cover price. > >Being at there's no cover price on these, I assume that means you gave them >away, as would be the noble thing to do? Don't be a goddam idiot. The price is printed right on the covers. Back in the 70s, books that did not have printed prices usually had prices stamped in chalk on the inside front cover. That's why they call it "cover price." I remember buying these manuals back when I was a starving student. Those manuals cost every cent I had and more. I remember having to decide whether I wanted "TV Typewriter Cookbook" more than I wanted dinner. Osborne's "Book 1" cost me a week of my food budget. The Intel manuals were even more expensive. > >> Fischer-Freitas isn't in that category. > >Hmm. Fischer-Freitas supports IMSAI products. I'm sure there's lots of >money in that these days. FF sells the products for profit. If they don't have manuals, they have no product. > >> I have boxes and boxes of old 8080 >> programming manuals, many predate the IMSAI and were most likely used in >its >> design. Yes, they're gold. > >Congratulations. Now you can retire. I AM retired. But nothing lasts forever. Now quit being such a fucking prat, it's time to shit or get off the pot. I don't see YOU offering them one of YOUR manuals. Unless you do, you have no right to criticise me. ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 16 Jun 2002 01:01:31 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-271.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109875 In article <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com>, Tim says... > >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> > >Gee, are your manuals gold plated or something? The last I checked I had >> > >perhaps a dozen sets of these manuals. They're not rare, and not worth >> an >> > >original IMSAI, but they are worth a favor to an old hacker. So who's >> the >> > >actual profiteer here? >> > > >> > >Lighten up. >> > >> > I have previously offered my books to non-profit hackers at cover price. >> >> Being at there's no cover price on these, I assume that means you gave them >> away, as would be the noble thing to do? > >Most of my mid-late-70's Intel books have cover prices in the $2.00 >to $4.00 range, although (like most data books) I'm sure Intel was >giving them away for free. Not really. Intel was really really cheap, they hardly gave away anything except simple brochures and data sheets. ISTR paying around $25 for the 8080 ICE manuals. Everyone I knew paid for their manuals (or got their school to pay for it). Just because someone claims they got their manuals for free doesn't mean that someone didn't pay cash money for them. ###### From: "Bill_Leary" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.115.225 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc03 1024217890 24.218.115.225 (Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:58:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:58:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:58:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc03.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109852 "Sellam Ismail" wrote in message news:C9SO8.205915$352.13300@sccrnsc02... > Being at there's no cover price on these, Which manuals are these? If we're talking the late '70's and into the '80's, most of the ones we had had prices, though not always printed on the cover. The term "cover price" was (with the people I dealt with anyway) generally referred to as the "cove price" anyway. But a lot of them did have prices on the covers, usually the lower left of the back cover, as I recall. If you were a serious customer, you could get a set or two for free, but extras cost the cover price. If you were a hacker (original definition) you paid over the counter. I was both at the time, 8080A, 8088, etc. at my day job, and RCA and Zilog at home. Some of the office stuff had prices and some didn't, but as I recall we got them all free. The stuff I used at home, some had prices and some didn't, but I paid for them all. The ones that didn't have prices, the guy at the will-call counter just pulled out a price list for. I have here, for example, my 1986 Intel 80386 Programmers Reference Manual. There is no price for THIS ONE BOOK anywhere, but on the inside cover there is a price list for numerous manuals published by Intel. The first item is the "Complete set of 8 handbooks" (of which this was a member) for $125.00. The note with that item says "Save $50.00 off the retail price of $175.00." The first page of the manual itself is a Literature Order Form. The were sold for these prices, at least in some cases. Still, I always kind of wondered if those prices weren't more so they could use it when the filed taxes, as part of "good will" or "customer incentive" or whatever. - Bill PS: No, I didn't buy the manual. My company got the set as freebies from the local Intel rep. when we were designing a board with an 80386 on it. When we skipped the '386 and went to the '486, we got '486 manuals and I grabbed part of the '386 set for home use before the set went into the dumpster. ###### From: "Sellam Ismail" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <_n1P8.210762$352.13506@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.232.64.100 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1024238202 12.232.64.100 (Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:36:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:36:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:36:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109850 > I remember buying these manuals back when I was a starving student. Those > manuals cost every cent I had and more. I remember having to decide whether I > wanted "TV Typewriter Cookbook" more than I wanted dinner. Osborne's "Book 1" > cost me a week of my food budget. The Intel manuals were even more expensive. Ok, so in another message you said: "ISTR paying around $25 for the 8080 ICE manuals." Maybe inflation was so bad back then that $25 represented every cent you had and spending them on books instead of food was a sacrifice of Biblical proportions. But even at original IMSAI prices, these books are not worth an IMSAI. > FF sells the products for profit. If they don't have manuals, they have no > product. Wow, you wield a lot of power, oh High Holy Master of Old Intel Databooks. Too bad ABE (www.abebooks.com) came around and ruined your little scheme to dominate the world by hoarding your databooks for profit. > I AM retired. But nothing lasts forever. Including your intelligence it would seem. > Now quit being such a fucking prat, it's time to shit or get off the pot. I > don't see YOU offering them one of YOUR manuals. Unless you do, you have no > right to criticise me. I'm actually visiting Fischer-Freitas in the next couple weeks. If he doesn't have a set by then, I WILL bring him some of mine, and will leave them there. You may wipe my ass now. ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:11:04 -0800 Lines: 35 Message-ID: <3D0D1B08.91E1A977@computer.org> References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1024265450 7651944 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109900 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > >Gee, are your manuals gold plated or something? The last I checked I had > > > >perhaps a dozen sets of these manuals. They're not rare, and not worth > > an > > > >original IMSAI, but they are worth a favor to an old hacker. So who's > > the > > > >actual profiteer here? > > > > > > > >Lighten up. > > > > > > I have previously offered my books to non-profit hackers at cover price. > > > > Being at there's no cover price on these, I assume that means you gave them > > away, as would be the noble thing to do? > > Most of my mid-late-70's Intel books have cover prices in the $2.00 > to $4.00 range, although (like most data books) I'm sure Intel was > giving them away for free. > > I never understood the psychology of putting a "price" on something > that nobody ever pays for. Maybe the idea is "hey, this says it is > worth something, I'm going to read it instead of the one that's marked > free"? > > Tim. AAA does this with their maps. I have one in front of me, the left lower corner says, "Retail $3.75", and the right lower corner says "For members only". And members always get the maps for free. Why? ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 16 Jun 2002 16:46:58 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <_n1P8.210762$352.13506@sccrnsc02> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-875.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.96 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109913 In article <_n1P8.210762$352.13506@sccrnsc02>, "Sellam says... > >> I remember buying these manuals back when I was a starving student. Those >> manuals cost every cent I had and more. I remember having to decide >whether I >> wanted "TV Typewriter Cookbook" more than I wanted dinner. Osborne's >"Book 1" >> cost me a week of my food budget. The Intel manuals were even more >expensive. > >Ok, so in another message you said: > >"ISTR paying around $25 for the 8080 ICE manuals." > >Maybe inflation was so bad back then that $25 represented every cent you had >and spending them on books instead of food was a sacrifice of Biblical >proportions. But even at original IMSAI prices, these books are not worth >an IMSAI. An IMSAI is only worth about $500, the cover price of my books far exceeds that value. My library includes hundreds of pages of unpublished Intel docs and extensive schematics for support circuits, generated by my professor, a former Univac engineer and designer of satellites for NASA. >> FF sells the products for profit. If they don't have manuals, they have no >> product. > >Wow, you wield a lot of power, oh High Holy Master of Old Intel Databooks. >Too bad ABE (www.abebooks.com) came around and ruined your little scheme to >dominate the world by hoarding your databooks for profit. abebooks doesn't give em away for free either. > >> Now quit being such a fucking prat, it's time to shit or get off the pot. >I >> don't see YOU offering them one of YOUR manuals. Unless you do, you have >no >> right to criticise me. > >I'm actually visiting Fischer-Freitas in the next couple weeks. If he >doesn't have a set by then, I WILL bring him some of mine, and will leave >them there. Bull fucking shit. You talk big, but action talks, bullshit walks. Until you PROVE you gave away the docs, you're just another steaming pile of BS. ###### From: "Bill_Leary" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0CDAC9.39EA1C89@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.115.225 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1024283786 24.218.115.225 (Mon, 17 Jun 2002 03:16:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 03:16:26 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 03:16:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109898 "jchausler" wrote in message news:3D0CDAC9.39EA1C89@earthlink.net... > Bill_Leary wrote: > > If you were a serious customer, you could get a set or two for free, but > > ((..omitted..)) > > I feel sorry for you Intel guys. As a Moto maniac but just a > hacker, Moto gave me lots of free manuals. > ((..omitted..)) I have a set of 6800 manuals that the guy I got them from got from Moto for free. They have, however, price stickers on them (not printed on the covers). $10.00 a piece, if I recall (they're in the basement... somewhere). My recollection, however, is that you're correct. Motorola was a LOT more free with their materials. They seemed to be a lot more into the entire "hacker" ethic than anyone else. At least their reps I dealt with. We're still talking late '70's and through the '80's for all this. I haven't dealt direct with company reps in this way in well over ten years now. I work for a big place now and they have people who handle these things for us. I kind miss arguing archetecture with those guys. > I don't recall paying for TI manuals either. Our experiences with TI were a lot like those with Intel, except that they wanted to keep us away from the "evil of a overblown eight bit system" *8080 -> 8086) so they gave quicker and more than Intel tended to. There was one set of reps who were universally generous, though. I can't recall the company. Who was it who made and pushed (and PUSHED) the 6502 and it's cousins? Those guys would practically sit with you and do a design. - Bill ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 16 Jun 2002 22:57:42 -0600 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <1b3cvma4e1.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <6447bcd3.0206140939.8ab0f66@posting.google.com> <1bvg8lyr9l.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3D0B95F6.5A2A60FE@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1024289860 13643 128.123.64.113 (17 Jun 2002 04:57:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jun 2002 04:57:40 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!nunki.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109902 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > In article <3D0B95F6.5A2A60FE@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >> > >> Neat. One of these days, I'm going to get over there. I'd like > >> to play with one. > >> > >IIRC, Lego robots are available "over-the-counter" to just > >about anybody. Perhaps you can get one of the HC11 systems and > >a Lego robot of your own to work with. If he has *not* seen > >such things, this might be very interesting to your nephew. It certainly could be, though the LEGO programming environment is a visual environment pretty far removed from the hardware. Very different from what we're doing. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3D0E479E.8051146@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0CDAC9.39EA1C89@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1024338896 12.237.69.87 (Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:34:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:34:56 GMT Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:34:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109942 Bill_Leary wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > There was one set of reps who were universally generous, though. I can't > recall the company. Who was it who made and pushed (and PUSHED) the 6502 and > it's cousins? Those guys would practically sit with you and do a design. > The makers and pushers of the 6502 were MOS Technology. (*Not* to be confused with Mostek...) MOS Technology was acquired by Commodore many years ago...and built some specialized versions of the 6502 for Commodore. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 02:02:50 -0000 Organization: Utterly Disorganized Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com> <3D0D1B08.91E1A977@computer.org> User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.4 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!feed.textport.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110061 In article , greymaus wrote: > > Some of the system crackers were charged with stealing information > worth millions of dollars , it was this sort of scam . Putting a price > on the information makes a legal case . > The accountants need to know how much to charge against the department's budget for data books. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? References: <3D0D1B08.91E1A977@computer.org> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:07:33 CDT X-Trace: sv3-d8uWcf8NhpKIAKdJOQ4VvFVAYgNj7ndnBtg4YmVFtswcOASVagKaTCT9pEJV3kHVvzHWTbi13DT520f!R4jNUqDuoqVsTsgWAbAjCW/MnPZYgGvByTPGKR77iB26w1kQpc4YSUrhzgZGJy/jv3BuCXztWKSn!UwqShnRMXuUZ62PbFxmvWFsSDw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:07:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109952 In article , Alistair Gale wrote: >On 17 Jun 2002 20:54:02 GMT, greymaus wrote: > >>Some of the system crackers were charged with stealing information >>worth millions of dollars , it was this sort of scam . Putting a price >>on the information makes a legal case . > >What 808X system were you cracking back then: Embedded controllers? >Adding go-faster stripes to your Mustang's engine control chips? IIRC, Ford had some kind of proprietary 12-bit microprocessor for some of their early-80's engine management systems. I only remember it from reading a microprocesser reference back when I was about 10, so I know none of the details. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### From: dgriffi@cs.csuabk.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 20 Jun 2002 05:51:40 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com> <3D0D1B08.91E1A977@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110148 greymaus wrote: > In article , Alistair Gale wrote: >> What 808X system were you cracking back then: Embedded controllers? >> Adding go-faster stripes to your Mustang's engine control chips? >> >> Anyone who wanted to exploit the "cracks" would need to purchase the >> Intel chipsets and development systems anyhow, and the docs came with >> those. > Moi? .... 40,000 miles from anywhere ? . What I was trying (badly) to > write , is that some of the early [system hackers][crackers] were > prosecuted for stealing information worth [megabucks] , until somebody > pointed out that the informations was generally available free , just > had a ginormous price on the cover . University libraries?. You might be thinking of the E911 Document case. Search Google with: e911 "craig neidorf" phrack -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csubak.edu ###### From: dgriffi@cs.csuabk.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 21 Jun 2002 22:30:35 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3D0930B2.1070906@meowing.net> <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com> <3D0D1B08.91E1A977@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110269 greymaus wrote: > In article , dgriffi@cs.csuabk.edu wrote: >> greymaus wrote: >>> Moi? .... 40,000 miles from anywhere ? . What I was trying (badly) to >>> write , is that some of the early [system hackers][crackers] were >>> prosecuted for stealing information worth [megabucks] , until somebody >>> pointed out that the informations was generally available free , just >>> had a ginormous price on the cover . University libraries?. >> >> You might be thinking of the E911 Document case. Search Google with: >> e911 "craig neidorf" phrack >> > Will do , when next on . I think it was part of the case against Mintick , > too . Its hard to make judgements on things like that when there are two > contrasting views on the case , from "Mad Hacker wrecks Nation" to " > Harmless person jailed for nothing" That's mostly what the Mitnick case was. A friend of mine knew Mitnick back in the 80s when he was showing up at the LA 2600 meetings. Mitnick was more motivated by movies like "Wargames" than the expected hackish curiosity, although he did have some of the latter. Some have compared Mitnick to Se7en (http://www.attrition.org/errata/charlatan.html#se7en), but Se7en was a complete fake and could barely deal with a Unix command line. The movie "Takedown" was almost entirely a fantasy of Shimomura's. In real life, "Shimmy" thinks far too highly of himself and is easy fooled by pranks. -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csubak.edu ###### From: dgriffi@cs.csuabk.edu Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: oh, dear: imsai back? Date: 25 Jun 2002 07:16:24 GMT Organization: CSUnet Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <1BIO8.206375$cQ3.6859@sccrnsc01> <3D0BBE18.3BB6AB70@trailing-edge.com> <3D0D1B08.91E1A977@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pegasus.cs.csubak.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!eusc.inter.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!isdnet!howland.erols.net!usc.edu!newshub.csu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110551 greymaus wrote: > In article , dgriffi@cs.csuabk.edu wrote: >>> Will do , when next on . I think it was part of the case against Mintick , >>> too . Its hard to make judgements on things like that when there are two >>> contrasting views on the case , from "Mad Hacker wrecks Nation" to " >>> Harmless person jailed for nothing" >> >> That's mostly what the Mitnick case was. A friend of mine knew Mitnick >> back in the 80s when he was showing up at the LA 2600 meetings. Mitnick >> was more motivated by movies like "Wargames" than the expected hackish >> curiosity, although he did have some of the latter. Some have compared >> Mitnick to Se7en (http://www.attrition.org/errata/charlatan.html#se7en), >> but Se7en was a complete fake and could barely deal with a Unix command >> line. The movie "Takedown" was almost entirely a fantasy of Shimomura's. >> In real life, "Shimmy" thinks far too highly of himself and is easy fooled >> by pranks. > I consider "Wargames" to be the only half-valid movie about computers , > not least because of its attitude to nuclear war , and excessive > relience of cybernetics . If your summing up of Mintick is correct , > its amazing how he fulfilled even the most paranoid expectation . ( He > was never convicted of anything? ) . I notice that Corley's magazine > is way late . Essentially what happened was Mitnick pleaded guilty to computer trespass and some other minor things just so he could get out of jail. The basic story of the Mitnick case is of how a group of paranoid and ignorant people scared themselves by assuming a fairly ordinary computer geek had superhuman powers. Recall the maxim "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Most people nowadays know what computers are and vaguely what they can be used for. They don't understand how a person could possibly grok the inner workings and do some really amazing and sometimes frightening things. They don't understand that there exist the equivelent of locks in computers to keep out intruders and that a lot of locks don't work right. So, when a vandal breaks into a computer, the masses attribute it to some magical power. Not having an inkling of how that's done, people assume that because a computer is used to control a thing (traffic lights, phones, ICBM launch facilities), a vandal may control any of these things at a whim. All that's needed is a computer of some kind. Perhaps even a phone is necessary because everyone knows that an accomplished phone phreak is capable of launching nukes by whistling into a phone. Mitnick was left damaged in the same was a beaten dog will be forever quake in fear at the approach of a human. Those who've met him quickly notice this. -- David Griffith dgriffi@cs.csubak.edu