From: ulf@problem.org (Ulf) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 6 Jun 2002 09:16:42 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 59 Message-ID: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.71.188.20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023380202 18557 127.0.0.1 (6 Jun 2002 16:16:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Jun 2002 16:16:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109384 I found a few bankers boxes full of vintage Byte Magazines containing over 10 complete years with all the extra/special editions: 1) November 1983 and December 1983 Issues (Volume 8, Issue 11 and Issue 12) 2) January 1984 to December 1984 inclusive plus Special Issue "Guide to IBM PCs" (Volume 9, Issue 1 to Issue 13) 3) January 1985 to December 1985 inclusive plus Special Issue "Inside the IBM PCs" (Volume 10, Issue 1 to Issue 13) 4) January 1986 to December 1986 inclusive plus Extra Edition "Inside the IBM PCs" (Volume 11, Issue 1 to Issue 13) 5) January 1987 to December 1987 inclusive plus Bonus Edition "Applications Software Today" plus Extra Edition "Inside the IBM PCs" (Volume 12, Issue 1 to Issue 14) 6) January 1988 to December 1988 inclusive plus Extra Issue "IBM Special Edition" (Volume 13, Issue 1 to Issue 13) 7) January 1989 to December 1989 inclusive plus Extra Issue "Redefining the Standards * IBM Special Edition" (Volume 14, Issue 1 to Issue 13) 8) January 1990 to December 1990 inclusive plus Extra Issue "Guidepost for the 90s * IBM Special Edition" (Volume 15, Issue 1 to Issue 13) 9) January 1991 to December 1991 inclusive plus Special Issue "Extra Edition * Outlook '92" (Volume 16, Issue 1 to Issue 13) 10) January 1992 to December 1992 inclusive plus Special Issue "Essential Guide to Windows" plus Special Issue "Essential Guide to Portable Computing" (Volume 17, Issue 1 to Issue 14) 11) January 1993, February 1993, March 1993 plus Spring 93 Special Issue "Essential guide to Windows" (Volume 18, Issues 1, 2, 3 & 5) All magazines are in Mint Condition and if there is any interest, I would like this lot to go to a collector or someone interested in vintage systems for a nominal donation towards my preservation fund :-) Constructive feedback is appreciated e-mail: ulf@problem.org or pc_diags@yahoo.com ###### Message-ID: <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:26:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.250.221.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023729995 67.250.221.107 (Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:26:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:26:35 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109521 jchausler wrote: > After having a subscription from 1977 and acquiring most issues before > that date, I dropped my subscription sometime in 83 as by that time > IMHO it had become uninteresting. I was a computer "hobbyist" and > to my mind what I considered a hobby had all but ended by that time. > Byte by that time had basically gone business/commercial. 'Byte' magazine was started by Wayne Greene, who made his mark in amateur radio with '73' magazine, and went on to establish quite a publishing empire with dozens of magazines and hundreds of books. He was a *very* interesting character. He strongly believed that magazines should print what their customers wanted; not what their advertisers wanted. But, he lost 'Byte' to his wife as part of a divorce settlement, and she sold it to McGraw-Hill. McGraw-Hill was more interested in catering to the needs of their advertisers. Thus the change in focus. I also agree that the 'glory days' of microcomputing are behind us. Once upon a time, computers were only built by gigantic corporations, who kept how they worked a secret. They could only be programmed by professionals who jealously guarded these secrets. They were hideously expensive, and a 'software priesthood' made sure the average user had no control over how they worked, and had to buy all his software. Then microcomputers happened, and anyone who wanted to could build and program their own computers. Two guys in a garage started Apple. A college student started Microsoft. The genie was out of the bottle. Computers became cheap, and easy to use and program to do what *you* wanted them to do. But where are we today? Only giant corporations can build computers. Only software experts can program them. You have to buy your hardware and software, and it's full of bugs that you can't even understand, let alone fix. The genie has been put back into the bottle. My hope is that I live long enough for someone to do it all again. Two guys in a garage somewhere invent a new computer architecture, that again makes computers affordable, easy to use, easy to understand, and most importantly, easy for the average person to make them do what *he* wants it to do! -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 10 Jun 2002 19:08:16 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1023736096 20823 134.117.136.30 (10 Jun 2002 19:08:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 2002 19:08:16 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!news-peer-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109530 Lee Hart (leeahart@earthlink.net) writes: > ... > My hope is that I live long enough for someone to do it all again. Two > guys in a garage somewhere invent a new computer architecture, that > again makes computers affordable, easy to use, easy to understand, and > most importantly, easy for the average person to make them do what *he* > wants it to do! How about the DNA computer? A few flasks, petrie dishes some slime and you're off! ###### Message-ID: <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:10:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.252.50.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023714636 158.252.50.76 (Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:10:36 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 06:10:36 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!5cd49daf!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109524 Michael Black wrote: > ulf@problem.org (Ulf) wrote in message news:<4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com>... > > I found a few bankers boxes full of vintage Byte Magazines > > containing over 10 complete years with all the extra/special > > editions: > > > [List of Bytes from 1983 to 1993 deleted] > > To me, that period would go from still interesting, to somewhat to not > worth keeping. I had nearly a complete set going to 1991 or so, > and maybe 7 years ago, I decided that the later years weren't worth > keeping. I think I deleted after either 1986 or 1987. After having a subscription from 1977 and acquiring most issues before that date, I dropped my subscription sometime in 83 as by that time IMHO it had become uninteresting. I was a computer "hobbyist" and to my mind what I considered a hobby had all but ended by that time. Byte by that time had basically gone business/commercial. This was probably necessary to keep them alive as the focus had changed. I know I was not the only "hobbyist" to abandon the hobby around that time and move onto other things (I went into flying airplanes, now since abandoned as well.) I still have my Bytes as well as IA's and KB's and every couple of years or so pull out a few for some entertaining reading. These days I collect and research old land line telegraph instruments. Does it seem like I'm going backwards in technology :-) I think a lot of folks view the "interesting time" in computers as when they first became involved. I've always considered myself lucky as for me it happened twice, in the mid to late 60's with mainframes and minis and then again in the mid to late 70's with micros. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 7 Jun 2002 19:25:59 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 60 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.84.44.76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023503159 20248 127.0.0.1 (8 Jun 2002 02:25:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 2002 02:25:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109495 ulf@problem.org (Ulf) wrote in message news:<4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com>... > I found a few bankers boxes full of vintage Byte Magazines > containing over 10 complete years with all the extra/special > editions: > [List of Bytes from 1983 to 1993 deleted] To me, that period would go from still interesting, to somewhat to not worth keeping. I had nearly a complete set going to 1991 or so, and maybe 7 years ago, I decided that the later years weren't worth keeping. I think I deleted after either 1986 or 1987. By that time (whenever exactly it was I decided it wasn't worth keeping issues after) , the magazine was pretty much IBM compatible only, and of course the industry wasn't much far behind. Steve Ciarcia was about to end his column (or have it ended by the magazine). There was less technical and more about the latest and fastest IBM compatible. In 1983, there was still neat stuff in there. I kept the C special issue near at hand when I set out to learn that language. There were a variety of platforms, manufacturers were trying new things rather than trying to conform (the HP-150 with a touch screen, versus the original Mac with a mouse, both of which came out about the same time) and things were still being uncovered. There were still construction articles, and I think the program listings were still in the magazines (how, almost twenty years later, are the articles supposed to be useful if the program listings were not printed, but available by other means? Good luck finding the program listings now). It was a very different magazine, closer to the original of 1975 than what would come in just a few years. It was almost the cusp of when the magazine started deteriorating. That's not much of an answer. And it really depends on who would take them. Usually, there is at least someone who is interested in something no matter how old or recent, bland or cool. I suppose if I looked at the later issues now, I might wish to have them, because in the context of almost ten years later, they may look more like what came before than what came later. I've been to the usual string of spring used book sales here, and I was struck with how few computer books I saw. Twenty to twenty five years ago, pretty much all you'd see would be those "101 things to do with your home computer". Then you'd see more interesting titles, and later you could rely on finding the last or second to last edition of books devoted to the big applications. But I hardly saw any computer books this spring, making me wonder if (assuming people aren't just keeping them) people are assuming nobody will want them, so they go to recycling instead of used book sales. It did make me realize that it's been years since I saw older computer magazines at such sales. There was a period when I was able to fill in the gaps in my Byte collection at used book sales, because people were finally getting rid of them. I don't see much of that now, leaving me also wondering if they go directly to recycling after one reading. Where they once were a reference to keep, they are now as disposable as Time or Newsweek. I can't imagine buying much in the way of computer magazines nowadays, so I'm not surprised, yet I suppose it also means that there will be less record of this time period when it comes to computers. Michael ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 10 Jun 2002 22:23:40 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 48 Message-ID: <6un0u2nar7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1023740620 863 10.0.3.2 (10 Jun 2002 20:23:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 2002 20:23:40 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109546 ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > Lee Hart (leeahart@earthlink.net) writes: > > > > My hope is that I live long enough for someone to do it all again. Two > > guys in a garage somewhere invent a new computer architecture, that > > again makes computers affordable, easy to use, easy to understand, and > > most importantly, easy for the average person to make them do what *he* > > wants it to do! Easiest way to ensure living so long: have it happen in your lifetime. > How about the DNA computer? A few flasks, petrie dishes some slime > and you're off! DNA is too far off. The micro revolution only happend after commercial microprocessor chips made the step component->system leap small enough for hobbyists limited time and knowledge resources. But if Lee Hart wants to to get involvend today: FPGA CPUs/computers That is the next thing where the hobbyist can get involved and make something new[1]. Parts and infrastructure are in $xx to $xxx range. One can make ones own computer on a single chip and software for it. Design the whole thing from gates on upwards. [1]http://www.fpgacpu.org/index.html Emulate any past system (mainframe of micro) and use its software, or design your own architecture[2] and write the software for it, the entire system. [2]http://www.fpgacpu.org/xsoc/index.html 8bit micros and 12bit minis[3] start at about $30-50, 16/18bit[4] is around $100-200, 32/36bit[5] is about $200-500. [3]http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ [4]http://www.spies.com/~dgc/pdp4x/ [5]http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/PDP-10/ -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### From: "Michael J. Albanese" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:30:41 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3D05DF61.6010605@revoke-my-charter.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020607 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109575 Lee Hart wrote: > 'Byte' magazine was started by Wayne Greene, who made his mark in > amateur radio with '73' magazine, and went on to establish quite a > publishing empire with dozens of magazines and hundreds of books. He was > a *very* interesting character. His web page still makes for some interesting reading...heh. http://www.waynegreen.com/wayne/says.html I have his old Morse code tapes around somewhere. I did learn the code, however Wayne seemed rather partial to the "swingy" rhythm of the letter "L" -- di DAH di dit, di DAH di dit! He used to brag up Peterborough, NH so much in his magazines that I was half-tempted to make a trip up there just to see what it was all about. Being from Pennsylvania, a place without sales tax seemed quite unimaginable to me :-) Mike -- (remove 'revoke-my-' from address for email) ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 10 Jun 2002 18:52:45 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 72 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.84.44.206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023760365 14393 127.0.0.1 (11 Jun 2002 01:52:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2002 01:52:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109581 Lee Hart wrote in message news:<3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net>... > jchausler wrote: > > After having a subscription from 1977 and acquiring most issues before > > that date, I dropped my subscription sometime in 83 as by that time > > IMHO it had become uninteresting. I was a computer "hobbyist" and > > to my mind what I considered a hobby had all but ended by that time. > > Byte by that time had basically gone business/commercial. > > 'Byte' magazine was started by Wayne Greene, who made his mark in > amateur radio with '73' magazine, and went on to establish quite a > publishing empire with dozens of magazines and hundreds of books. He was > a *very* interesting character. He strongly believed that magazines > should print what their customers wanted; not what their advertisers > wanted. > > But, he lost 'Byte' to his wife as part of a divorce settlement, and she > sold it to McGraw-Hill. McGraw-Hill was more interested in catering to > the needs of their advertisers. Thus the change in focus. >[stuff deleted] This bit about the divorce settlement keeps coming up, but as far as I know it's wrong. Wayne Green divorced Virginia Green about 1968; he wrote about it in 73 at the time. By the time of Byte, he had remarried, I think the woman's name was Lynn. When Byte started, on the masthead was "Virginia Lodner Green", obviously his ex-wife. And then three months into the magazine's life, Byte suddenly had no connection to Wayne Green. It was always interesting, because from that point on, there was no mention of Wayne. When Carl Helmers talked about it's beginnings, he spoke of "when I and others founded..."; I remember writing to take him to task for that. When there were references to amateur radio magazines, like the time they ran a two part article on Baudot machines, CQ, Ham Radio, and maybe QST were mentioned, but absolutely no reference to 73. Wayne never said much at the time, other than that whole bit about making his next computer magazine "Kilobyte", which of course morphed into Kilobaud before the first issue. Long after the event, he finally did write about it, though long enough ago now that I can't remember the full details. He did say that when the magazine was starting up he was having various problems, with the IRS (I think that dated from the period of his divorce, when he let things slide), and with the telephone company (because of the three part article on telephones and phone phreaking in mid-1975), and it was decided that it would be safest to put the magazine in someone else's name. It's still not clear why it was the ex-wife. There was no settlement, the magazine was in effect stolen right out from under Wayne. I've mentioned this before, but it reads like Robert Heinlein's "The Door Into Summer", which Carl Helmer mentioned in one editorial about robots, as one of his favorite books. In that book, an inventer gets dazzled by a woman, gifts her with some stock when they were getting married, and then has the company stolen from him, by the would-be wife and his partner. The similarities were enough that I couldn't help but wonder if it gave Carl Helmer ideas. With enough time, Wayne was resurrected as the founder. I seem to recall an anniversary issue, must have been the tenth, when he did get to write something along with other old-timers. McGraw-Hill didn't buy the magazine for some years. It's a short period looking back, but at the time the magazine did have a nice run as an independent, albeit under Virginia Green's ownership. (But that potential seems to point further to book scenario.) And it was a technical magazine for some years after McGraw-Hill bought it; remembering that tenth anniversary issue, there were still hardware construction articles at that time. Michael ###### Message-ID: <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 03:47:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.251.143.215 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023767257 67.251.143.215 (Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:47:37 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:47:37 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109550 Lee Hart wrote: >> [Wayne Green] lost 'Byte' to his wife as part of a divorce settlement Michael Black replied: > This bit about the divorce settlement keeps coming up, but > as far as I know it's wrong. [snip] Thank you for the additional information. It sounds like your memory is better than my 'forgettory'. I heard the divorce story somewhere, and believed it. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### Message-ID: <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 106 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:49:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023806951 168.191.124.51 (Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:49:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:49:11 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!5cd49daf!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109555 Lee Hart wrote: > jchausler wrote: > > After having a subscription from 1977 and acquiring most issues before > > that date, I dropped my subscription sometime in 83 as by that time > > IMHO it had become uninteresting. I was a computer "hobbyist" and > > to my mind what I considered a hobby had all but ended by that time. > > Byte by that time had basically gone business/commercial. > > 'Byte' magazine was started by Wayne Greene, who made his mark in > amateur radio with '73' magazine, and went on to establish quite a > publishing empire with dozens of magazines and hundreds of books. He was > a *very* interesting character. He strongly believed that magazines > should print what their customers wanted; not what their advertisers > wanted. Yes, I've met Wayne on several occasions. He would come to hamfests pushing "73" and showed up at some computer faires as well (I think he was the keynote speaker at one of the many Trenton computer faires I attended but then so was Bill Gates). He certainly had "his opinions" and expressed them ;-) > But, he lost 'Byte' to his wife as part of a divorce settlement, and she > sold it to McGraw-Hill. McGraw-Hill was more interested in catering to > the needs of their advertisers. Thus the change in focus. That happened early on and he then started Kilobaud (originally to be Kilobyte but that was too close to home for the lawyers :-) in early 1977, just when I got started as a hobbyist. > I also agree that the 'glory days' of microcomputing are behind us. Once > upon a time, computers were only built by gigantic corporations, who > kept how they worked a secret. They could only be programmed by > professionals who jealously guarded these secrets. They were hideously > expensive, and a 'software priesthood' made sure the average user had no > control over how they worked, and had to buy all his software. This is one view but I don't share it. There was no "secret". The vendors went out of their way to get the customer involved and educated as that was the only way they were going to sell the iron. Anybody with access could learn to program them. I did, without any training. I taught myself Algol, then Fortran and then a few assembly languages, from the manuals. A key, of course, was access, but by the mid 60's this was frequently available to college students at many colleges and frequently without the requirement that a course be taken. Certainly this was true at CMU (then CIT) where I went. Yes, you punched cards or sat at a TTY on an RJE session, but that was the technology at the time. Yes I wanted closer contact with the machine itself and achieved it by becoming a part time operator for most of the time I was a student. Frequently during graveyard shifts on the weekends I worked I would run out the job stream and then the machine (Univac 1108, IBM 360/67, Bendix G-20) was "mine" till the end of the shift. If you had the will, there was a way. > Then microcomputers happened, and anyone who wanted to could build and > program their own computers. Two guys in a garage started Apple. A > college student started Microsoft. The genie was out of the bottle. > Computers became cheap, and easy to use and program to do what *you* > wanted them to do. YES! > But where are we today? Only giant corporations can build computers. > Only software experts can program them. You have to buy your hardware > and software, and it's full of bugs that you can't even understand, let > alone fix. The genie has been put back into the bottle. Again, this is only true if you let if be true. Now, I will admit that I have no desire nor skill to construct many layered PC cards and deal with surface mount components. I had enough "fun" doing double sided PC cards 30 years ago. But, if you want to take a popular micro controller like some of the Motorola 68whatevers currently available, you can build your own computer. Now of course, it won't run Windoze whatever. If building a computer is not your cup of tea, how about software, i.e. Linux. The sources are available for your infinite perusal and modification to fit your individual needs, or write your own OS and applications if you wish. Are you going to do this? What is your reason for wanting to do this? I can think of many but most folks just want to get that letter written or that slide show prepared or that spreadsheet done or ... You can today, however, own you own powerful computer and bend it to your will, whatever that is. > My hope is that I live long enough for someone to do it all again. Two > guys in a garage somewhere invent a new computer architecture, that > again makes computers affordable, easy to use, easy to understand, and > most importantly, easy for the average person to make them do what *he* > wants it to do! It probably won't happen with computers but some other technology. In the early days of telegraphy, people built their own small telegraph systems, learned the code, and used them (the Bear Valley Line is a famous one). This was eventually replaced with the telephone which did not require the average user to learn and understand any of the involved technology to achieve successful the communications both technologies delivered. Something similar has happened with the computer. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:32:34 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-204-109.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1023741154 1698 213.122.204.109 (10 Jun 2002 20:32:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:32:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!news-feed1.de1.concert.net!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109578 "Lee Hart" wrote in message news:3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net... [SNIP] > My hope is that I live long enough for someone to do it all again. Two > guys in a garage somewhere invent a new computer architecture, that > again makes computers affordable, easy to use, easy to understand, and > most importantly, easy for the average person to make them do what *he* > wants it to do! I think that the free software world is where the action is on that front right now. There are corresponding free hardware projects too, mostly based on FPGAs. You can actually spin silicon as a rich amateur too ! By rich I mean having a few thousand burning a hole in your pocket. Cheers, Rupert ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <326bguoln156it7sedosrffhr2t6m73252@4ax.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 72 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:52:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1023778348 24.71.223.147 (Tue, 11 Jun 2002 00:52:28 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 00:52:28 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!feed.cgocable.net!cy2!cy1!newsfeed.shawcable.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109582 On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:26:35 GMT, Lee Hart wrote: >I also agree that the 'glory days' of microcomputing are behind us. Once >upon a time, computers were only built by gigantic corporations, who >kept how they worked a secret. They could only be programmed by >professionals who jealously guarded these secrets. They were hideously >expensive, and a 'software priesthood' made sure the average user had no >control over how they worked, and had to buy all his software. Once upon a time, indeed, the preceding is a children's story. The hardware was extremely well documented, and all the software was provided for free, in source form. They *were* hideously expensive to buy and to run. Software purchases and application development had to be cost justified. Development was done by professionals, and jobs run by professionals, to keep the (charged back) cost of running the programs down, so the large jobs completed on schedule. One inefficient program in a PPOE cost the department $5K/day to run; we rewrote it so it only cost $500/day to run. The users specified what they wanted done, had to sign off on the estimates, specification, and testing, same as nowadays. >Then microcomputers happened, and anyone who wanted to could build and >program their own computers. Two guys in a garage started Apple. A >college student started Microsoft. The genie was out of the bottle. >Computers became cheap, and easy to use and program to do what *you* >wanted them to do. If what you wanted to do was simple enough to fit on the tiny systems and run in what you considered a reasonable amount of time or before the system broke. And you considered the cost of the hardware and software reasonable for what you wanted it to do. >But where are we today? Only giant corporations can build computers. >Only software experts can program them. You have to buy your hardware >and software, and it's full of bugs that you can't even understand, let >alone fix. The genie has been put back into the bottle. MS creates employment for legions of managers, programmers, and operators^Wtechnicians with limited clue in companies with large budgets. Hardware is pretty cheap, open source software can be written by anyone with a PC, costs nothing, has few bugs relative to MS products, and you can fix them yourself if you want to spend some time. >My hope is that I live long enough for someone to do it all again. Two >guys in a garage somewhere invent a new computer architecture, that >again makes computers affordable, easy to use, easy to understand, and >most importantly, easy for the average person to make them do what *he* >wants it to do! Hardware is unlikely to be available much cheaper in the future: markets are stable, margins are tight, and investments are getting more expensive. Software makes computers easy to use, but not to understand, and is limited in what it can do for average users. OTOH if you make the effort to understand how to program them at some level with some tool, you can make them do what you want. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 10 Jun 2002 23:00:11 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6un0u2nar7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1023750011 7755 134.117.136.30 (10 Jun 2002 23:00:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jun 2002 23:00:11 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109572 Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) writes: ... > Design the whole thing from gates on upwards. ... No pun intended, I assume? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 11 Jun 2002 19:10:29 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 17 Message-ID: <6uvg8pbv22.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6un0u2nar7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1023815430 1273 10.0.3.2 (11 Jun 2002 17:10:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jun 2002 17:10:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109592 ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes: > Neil Franklin (neil@franklin.ch.remove) writes: > ... > > Design the whole thing from gates on upwards. > ... > No pun intended, I assume? No pun intended. I meant real hardware gates. AND, OR, XOR, MUX, FF, ... Damn Microsoft, they ever try to embrace-and-extend our terminology. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Message-ID: <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1023854366 12.237.69.87 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:59:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:59:26 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:59:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109638 Lee Hart wrote: > > Lee Hart wrote: > >> [Wayne Green] lost 'Byte' to his wife as part of a divorce settlement > > Michael Black replied: > > This bit about the divorce settlement keeps coming up, but > > as far as I know it's wrong. [snip] > > Thank you for the additional information. It sounds like your memory is > better than my 'forgettory'. I heard the divorce story somewhere, and > believed it. > The way I heard it, Mr. Wayne Green already had tax troubles when he started BYTE magazine. So to avoid such, he put the magazine in his wife's name. When they split...this somehow meant that *she* ended up with BYTE. So Wayne went off and started Kilobaud. Kilobaud resembles "73" magazine more than it resembles BYTE IMHO... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 144 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:13:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.251.143.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023851630 67.251.143.216 (Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:13:50 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:13:50 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109605 Lee Hart wrote: >> I also agree that the 'glory days' of microcomputing are behind us. >> Once upon a time, computers were only built by gigantic corporations, >> who kept how they worked a secret. They could only be programmed by >> professionals who jealously guarded these secrets. They were hideously >> expensive, and a 'software priesthood' made sure the average user had >> no control over how they worked, and had to buy all his software. jchausler replied: > This is one view but I don't share it. There was no "secret". The > vendors went out of their way to get the customer involved and > educated as that was the only way they were going to sell the iron. > Anybody with access could learn to program them. I think the key issue was indeed "access". I went to college in 1969-1973. As students, we had extremely limited access to the mainframes, and they were jealously guarded by what can only be described as a "priesthood". If you weren't in the priesthood, you were not permitted to have ANY knowledge of the computer's hardware or software capabilities. You weren't even allowed in the same room with the computer. The only access was by keypunching your own FORTRAN deck, and submitting it to be run overnight or when "their" computers weren't busy on "their" work. The only way I got access to any real computers was in a digital design course, where we had an elderly Xerox XDS-910 and a minimal DEC PDP-8. But this was enough to get me "hooked" on computers. I graduated, and went to work for Eastman Kodak. Their MIS department locked up their computers just as thoroughly in their own little fiefdom. We engineers had to concoct elaborate schemes to get any time on them for simulations, and access to the database for part numbers and other design information was restricted. So, we got our own computers. At first, we used minicomputers in projects, which had the side benefit of giving us access to "our own computer" while we developed the project. Access problem ended with the microcomputer explosion. Engineers, or for that matter anyone who wanted to, had access to their own personal computer. Sure, they were limited compared to mainframes. But the projects that the typical user wanted to use them for were limited as well. I agree that if you were in the right place at the right time, then you *could* gain access to large mainframes and minicomputers. You *could* get the technical data, and *could* learn how they really worked, and program them directly for things outside the "proper" way to do things. However, the average person could not get this access. And, I agree that computers were big and expensive, and that this justified rationing them and charging for their use. But the restrictions were far more drastic, and went on far longer than the situation called for. As late as 1990, when I worked for Robertshaw Controls, engineers still had to scrounge printouts from the dumpster from the IBM 370 that held the inventory records, so we could type them into our desktop PCs to have a complete list of the parts the company actually had in stock (so we could design products using parts we already had). Microcomputers broke the stranglehold that the MIS departments and mainframe computer manufacturers had on computing. >> But where are we today? Only giant corporations can build computers. >> Only software experts can program them. You have to buy your hardware >> and software, and it's full of bugs that you can't even understand, >> let alone fix. The genie has been put back into the bottle. > Again, this is only true if you let if be true. Now, I will admit that > I have no desire nor skill to construct many layered PC cards and deal > with surface mount components. There are many directions that computer technology could have gone. The paradigm we have today assumes: - very high pin count ICs; can't build with simple equipment - ad hoc "standards"; badly designed, promoted for monopolistic reasons - inflexible designs; can't fix or upgrade - extreme complexity; almost impossible to debug - discourage end users from writing their own software - hardware performance increases squandered by bad software - hubris; "we know what's best for you -- shut up and buy it" I fear that many of these factors are the same type of things that led to the demise of mainframes and the companies that supported them. They are exclusionary and monopolistic. People would change, but are stuck with the PC status quo because there are no practical alternatives. There are a few rays of hope, like Macs and Linux, but for the most part Intel and Microsoft rule. If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. Rather than an elitist 1% of the world being able to afford computers, it could become a truly egalitarian device that vastly more people could use. With lower prices and simpler hardware, a vast new range of devices could become available. > The sources are available for your infinite perusal and modification > to fit your individual needs, or write your own OS and applications > if you wish. Are you going to do this? What is your reason for > wanting to do this? I can think of many but most folks just want to > get that letter written or that slide show prepared or that > spreadsheet done or ... You can today, however, own you own > powerful computer and bend it to your will, whatever that is. The tools you have influence what you build. It is said that to a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The PC is a particularly lumpy, ungainly tool; the solutions it encourages are equally lumpy and ungainly. But if this is all people know, they accept it as "normal". As I said, I'm an engineer. I design products that use microcomputers, but they are usually not even remotely PC compatible. They include film processors and printers; controls for ovens, refrigerators, furnaces, and other home appliances; thermostats, battery chargers, and various computer peripherals. What I see is that the early microcomputers were general-purpose devices; very versatile, and relatively simple to understand, use, and program. As the years have progressed, these small microcomputers have become ever more arcane and specialized. You could build a general-purpose computer with a Z80 or 6502, but you can't with a PIC or DSP. The microcomputer in a product today is often explicitly designed for that sort of application, and gets hard to use for anything else. People who design and build with these chips also become specialists. They have to learn a whole new set of hardware, languages, and development tools to move from one application to another. This hinders progress, because if I want to design something new for which there is no custom-designed micro, I have a large selection of poor choices. The PC hardware has evolved in a totally bizarre direction. No engineer in his right mind would design a system like it. It is so far off in its own world that it doesn't resemble anything else. Yet it is such a massive influence that it warps everyone's thinking. This is what I meant by computer technology being stuck on a plateau. Sorry to ramble on. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 12 Jun 2002 07:26:55 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.84.44.218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023892016 803 127.0.0.1 (12 Jun 2002 14:26:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2002 14:26:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109633 "Nico de Jong" wrote in message news:... > | > | Kilobaud resembles "73" magazine more than it resembles BYTE > IMHO... > > BTW, is 73 still around ? > > Nico, OZ1BMC Just a few weeks ago, it came up in one of the rec.radio.amateur.* newsgroups, and since nobody said it's no longer being published, I assume issues are still being printed. But, I haven't seen in it in some years. They were having some problems in the early to mid nineties, I can't keep track, and it was looking pretty skimpy, there were a lot of errors, and they'd continue an article somewhere else, and either get the page wrong, or forget the rest of the piece. Here in Montreal, eventually it was coming really late to the newsstand and I was assuming they were having problems getting the issue out. Then it stopped appearing at all, and I figured that was the end. No, other people were still buying and reading it. The magazine cut back, maybe drastically, on newsstand distribution. So it's visible is down. But apparently still publishing. Michael ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 05:01:02 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-133-142.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1023858062 14917 213.1.133.142 (12 Jun 2002 05:01:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 05:01:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!teaser.fr!easynet-quince!easynet-melon!easynet.net!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109625 "Lee Hart" wrote in message news:3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net... [SNIP] > If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the > functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. > Rather than an elitist 1% of the world being able to afford computers, > it could become a truly egalitarian device that vastly more people could > use. With lower prices and simpler hardware, a vast new range of devices > could become available. I get the feeling that you're looking at what's become known as the "PDA", although they're sold for a shedload. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: tshoppa@wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 12 Jun 2002 10:19:57 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.121.15.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1023902397 12362 127.0.0.1 (12 Jun 2002 17:19:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2002 17:19:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109631 Lee Hart wrote in message news:<3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net>... > If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the > functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. Many users would discover that the blank sheet of paper delivers most of the functionality they need :-) I'm personally not so much concerned about the hardware cost of a PC-clone; it's the requisite user-supplied software maintenance (including the multiple-times-a-day reboot/reinstalls associated with a Windows platform) that I see as the real cost. Tim. ###### From: "Nico de Jong" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> Subject: Sv: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:55:42 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.228.39.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uni2.dk X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 1023861217 130.228.39.70 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:53:37 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:53:37 MET DST Organization: UNI2 Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.online.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109610 | | Kilobaud resembles "73" magazine more than it resembles BYTE IMHO... BTW, is 73 still around ? Nico, OZ1BMC ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 12 Jun 2002 20:37:36 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 106 Message-ID: <6uelfcibrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1023907061 1071 10.0.3.2 (12 Jun 2002 18:37:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2002 18:37:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109640 Lee Hart writes: > >> But where are we today? Only giant corporations can build computers. > >> Only software experts can program them. You have to buy your hardware > >> and software, and it's full of bugs that you can't even understand, > >> let alone fix. The genie has been put back into the bottle. > > > Again, this is only true if you let if be true. Now, I will admit that > > I have no desire nor skill to construct many layered PC cards and deal > > with surface mount components. Simple 2-layer (or 2 logic + 2 power) is still enough, if you do a good enough job of power supply lines and capacitor placing. Connecting an FPGA to some RAM and IO connectors is not that intensive. > - very high pin count ICs; can't build with simple equipment TQFP are hand solderable. A bit fidly, but possible. There are also methods using solder paste and domestic toaster ovens as reflow systems [1]. [1] http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm > - ad hoc "standards"; badly designed, promoted for monopolistic reasons > - inflexible designs; can't fix or upgrade > - extreme complexity; almost impossible to debug Make your own (or revive an dead) simple architecture. Most 1960s stuff was simple because they did not have the hardware to waste. Dito 1970 minis stuff. Just select something with enough address range (32bit+) and an paged MMU (or add one). > - discourage end users from writing their own software No problem with your own hardware. > - hardware performance increases squandered by bad software No problem with your own software. > - hubris; "we know what's best for you -- shut up and buy it" > > I fear that many of these factors are the same type of things that led > to the demise of mainframes and the companies that supported them. They > are exclusionary and monopolistic. People would change, but are stuck > with the PC status quo because there are no practical alternatives. Then make them one. The Linux and *BSD types have done that for software. Now its up to the hardware types to follow their lead. > If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the > functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. Then do so. It is today in the reach of every dedicated hobbyist. > As I said, I'm an engineer. I design products So you have all the needed knowlegde. > become ever more arcane and specialized. You could build a > general-purpose computer with a Z80 or 6502, but you can't with a PIC or > DSP. So buy an Z80 or 6502. Both are still in manufacture. And both are available as soft-cores for FPGAs. Or take any of the roughly ARM or MIPS or Sparc power level FPGA designs (OpenRISC, J32, Leon). > People who design and build with these chips also become specialists. > They have to learn a whole new set of hardware, languages, and > development tools to move from one application to another. So learn their stuff and use it. > The PC hardware has evolved in a totally bizarre direction. No engineer > in his right mind would design a system like it. No engineer in his right mind would have designed the original either. Talk about an quick and dirty hack. > It is so far off in its > own world that it doesn't resemble anything else. Yet it is such a > massive influence that it warps everyone's thinking. So design an better one. Or implement an better existing design. > Sorry to ramble on. Now convert the gripes into action. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Message-ID: <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:28:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.177.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1023910135 12.90.177.196 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:28:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:28:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109641 Michael Black wrote: > "Nico de Jong" wrote in message > > | > > | Kilobaud resembles "73" magazine more than it resembles BYTE > > IMHO... > > > > BTW, is 73 still around ? > > Just a few weeks ago, it came up in one of the rec.radio.amateur.* > newsgroups, and since nobody said it's no longer being published, > I assume issues are still being printed. > > But, I haven't seen in it in some years. They were having some > problems in the early to mid nineties, I can't keep track, and it > was looking pretty skimpy, there were a lot of errors, and they'd > continue an article somewhere else, and either get the page wrong, > or forget the rest of the piece. Here in Montreal, eventually it > was coming really late to the newsstand and I was assuming they > were having problems getting the issue out. Then it stopped > appearing at all, and I figured that was the end. > > No, other people were still buying and reading it. The magazine > cut back, maybe drastically, on newsstand distribution. So it's > visible is down. But apparently still publishing. Speaking of Montreal, there used to be a newstand at the southeast corner of St. Catherines and Peel which carried practically everything from everywhere in about a 10x10 foot space (I am exagerating). That was when the streetcars still ran. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### Message-ID: <3D07D1AD.60073E98@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1023915486 12.237.69.87 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:58:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:58:06 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:58:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109648 Michael Black wrote: > > "Nico de Jong" wrote in message news:... > > | > > | Kilobaud resembles "73" magazine more than it resembles BYTE > > IMHO... > > > > BTW, is 73 still around ? > > > > Nico, OZ1BMC > > Just a few weeks ago, it came up in one of the rec.radio.amateur.* > newsgroups, and since nobody said it's no longer being published, > I assume issues are still being printed. > > But, I haven't seen in it in some years. They were having some problems > in the early to mid nineties, I can't keep track, and it was looking > pretty skimpy, there were a lot of errors, and they'd continue an > article somewhere else, and either get the page wrong, or forget the > rest of the piece. Here in Montreal, eventually it was coming really > late to the newsstand and I was assuming they were having problems > getting the issue out. Then it stopped appearing at all, and I > figured that was the end. > > No, other people were still buying and reading it. The magazine cut > back, maybe drastically, on newsstand distribution. So it's visible > is down. But apparently still publishing. > The latest reference I can find is to "73 Amateur Radio Today" magazine is for the March 1996 issue... Was it publishing after that??? -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D07D24A.7FA70923@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1023915642 12.237.69.87 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:00:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:00:42 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:00:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109647 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Lee Hart wrote in message news:<3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net>... > > If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the > > functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. > > Many users would discover that the blank sheet of paper delivers most > of the functionality they need :-) > > I'm personally not so much concerned about the hardware cost of a PC-clone; > it's the requisite user-supplied software maintenance (including the > multiple-times-a-day reboot/reinstalls associated with a Windows platform) > that I see as the real cost. > YES!!! The *real* cost is measured in lost productivity. Time that you should spend doing your *real* work is spent baby- sitting a system that is full of bugs and needs re-booting, re-installing, and generally supporting above and beyond the call of duty. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D0813E6.3070901@prodigy.net> From: Michal Necasek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020510 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D07D24A.7FA70923@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.122.188.125 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 1023939561 ST000 66.122.188.125 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:39:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:39:21 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: FKPO@MONXJTUBRLYBRHPZFXFQ[WJBQ\KCA_@LWQIMASTUSAANNTEAK_ZQL[^HVWKGFDWJ@^NJ^[D_DKBRFW]NVHG@^RQXS\HJ@X^B_KBETUD@EP_XC@NIQKASLEE[KJMML^CJIZM\YYWWICSELXINHC_FK^XWQKIHA[Y@@OB@CCRA_LEY\FLLQ\GXVUKQPBL Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:39:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!ad30f8cc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109655 Charles Richmond wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > >>Lee Hart wrote in message news:<3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net>... >> > YES!!! The *real* cost is measured in lost productivity. Time > that you should spend doing your *real* work is spent baby- > sitting a system that is full of bugs and needs re-booting, > re-installing, and generally supporting above and beyond the > call of duty. > If computers were as useful as the vendors claim, the world couldn't have functioned without them. But since we know it did... Mind you, I'm a sofware engineer so I waste *all day* on computers! Michal ###### Message-ID: <3D08058B.F3201169@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 04:09:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.171.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1023941349 12.90.171.229 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 04:09:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 04:09:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator-sterling!news-in.nuthinbutnews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109698 Tim Shoppa wrote: > ... snip ... > > I'm personally not so much concerned about the hardware cost of a > PC-clone; it's the requisite user-supplied software maintenance > (including the multiple-times-a-day reboot/reinstalls associated > with a Windows platform) that I see as the real cost. Although I join in all stonings of Microsoft, I think that perception is not really accurate. It is a combination of the lack of ECC memory and the associated cuckoo eggs laid during the interminable disk repacks, and the use of the cheapest possible hardware with a minimum of self checking, married to silly practices such as overclocking. Of course the Microsoft fundamental design is intended to make it hard to protect oneself against these things, by making it impractical to mark all file read-only, for example. This in turn is designed to encourage planned obsolescence, and addition cash flow through the yawning gates. BPI [1] [1] Bad Pun Intentional -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address! ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D08058B.F3201169@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:40:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.220.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1023979233 24.43.220.117 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:40:33 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:40:33 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.telusplanet.net!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109675 "CBFalconer" wrote in message news:3D08058B.F3201169@yahoo.com... [snip...] > Of course the Microsoft fundamental design is intended to make it > hard to protect oneself against these things, by making it > impractical to mark all file read-only, for example. This in turn > is designed to encourage planned obsolescence, and addition cash > flow through the yawning gates. BPI [1] > > [1] Bad Pun Intentional > Let's look at it from another view: suppose that instead of the M$ consumer operating systems allowing full access to everything, that you needed a password to allow root / superuser / wheel privileges. How many phone calls would M$ get from people asking, "I've forgotten my password......."? Reasonable solutions would have problems, for example: special password (big security hole), special boot disk ("I didn't make one."), write down the password ("I lost the paper.") etc. I suspect that for Microsoft, it would be very expensive in terms of customer support and not be worth it. Sad but true. :-( ---Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. ###### Message-ID: <3D080D82.106E@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:50:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.250.221.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023940235 67.250.221.141 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:50:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:50:35 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109657 Tim Shoppa wrote: > Many users would discover that the blank sheet of paper delivers most > of the functionality they need :-) An excellent point! Touche'! :-) > I'm personally not so much concerned about the hardware cost of a > PC-clone Yes, they are cheap compared to the average American's income. But they cost many times more than the average world worker makes in a year! > it's the requisite user-supplied software maintenance (including the > multiple-times-a-day reboot/reinstalls associated with a Windows > platform) that I see as the real cost. Agreed. That's why I'm using DOS 6.2 and Windows 3.1. Negligible crash rate. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### Message-ID: <3D08250E.6EDD@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 57 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:50:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.250.221.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023940241 67.250.221.141 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:50:41 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:50:41 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109658 Lee Hart wrote: >> If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with >> the functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and >> cost. Rather than an elitist 1% of the world being able to afford >> computers, it could become a truly egalitarian device that vastly >> more people could use. With lower prices and simpler hardware, a >> vast new range of devices could become available. Rupert Pigott replied: > I get the feeling that you're looking at what's become > known as the "PDA", although they're sold for a shedload. :) I don't think so. PDA's are frequently an affluent person's toy (I'll bet I get in trouble for saying that :-) A large majority of people don't have computers, even in the USA. Why not? They can afford them. I feel it's because computers don't do the things that the majority of people want done. A microcomputer is a programmable piece of hardware. Microcomputers are more complicated than custom-designed hardware, but since they can be mass-produced so easily, it is often cheaper to use the microcomputer. And, it can be reprogrammed to fix problems, add features, or to do something completely different. For example, a digital watch doesn't need a microcomputer, but many of them use microcomputers anyway. It then becomes easy to add features like time zones, daylight savings time corrections, or even a completely unrelated function like a calculator. If you list the electronic devices that most people want and use, they would be things like a radio, music player, telephone, TV set, clock, calculator, game player, and book (education, entertainment, and information database). A microcomputer can do all of these things. It is quite feasible to imagine a single small inexpensive microcomputer that could be programmed to do all these things reasonably well. By using the same hardware for all these devices, you'd have something that is more expensive than any one of them, but cheaper than if you bought all of them separately. But its architecture would not be anything even remotely like a PC! The problem with the PC is that its hardware is so wierd, and its software so byzantine, that it is extremely difficult for it to do things that other microcomputers find easy. Thus, the PC is *NOT* very useful as a programmable piece of hardware. In theory, it could be programmed to be a calculator, or telephone, or TV set, or other basic electronic device. In practice, it takes too much specialized hardware, and the resulting performance is clearly inferior to the original device. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 13 Jun 2002 04:31:12 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D080D82.106E@earthlink.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1023942672 9407 134.117.136.30 (13 Jun 2002 04:31:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2002 04:31:12 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109676 Lee Hart (leeahart@earthlink.net) writes: > > Agreed. That's why I'm using DOS 6.2 and Windows 3.1. Negligible crash > rate. Hey brother, the windows 3.11 rarely runs on this machine. Telix is just fine for Usenet - Windows is for games. B-) ###### Message-ID: <3D082D81.2148@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <6uelfcibrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 87 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:50:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.250.221.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023940248 67.250.221.141 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:50:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:50:48 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed-east.nntpserver.com!nntpserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109656 Neil Franklin wrote: > Simple 2-layer (or 2 logic + 2 power) is still enough, if you do a > good enough job of power supply lines and capacitor placing. The typical TV set, or furnace control, or other truly mass-marketed truly cost-sensitive electronic device will use a SINGLE-sided PC board. The spacings between the traces will be large enough to literally print the boards (true printed circuits), rather than requiring photolithography. Such PC boards cost under 5 cents per square inch, compared to 25 cents per square inch for a typical high density PC board. > Connecting an FPGA to some RAM and IO connectors is not that intensive. The PC paradigm has dozens of chips, each with 100+ pins to be interconnected. This forces the design to have far more parts, and so be far more complicated and expensive. Look inside a PC; you see lots of boards covered with lots of parts, with thousands of interconnections. The more general microcomputer paradigm doesn't have 100's of pins, or require multilayer boards. It gets designed with the absolute minimum number of pins needed to do the job. And, it includes as many external parts as possible on one chip. Ideally, it does 100% of the job with no other ICs. Look inside a pocket calculator; there is exactly one chip that does absolutely everything. There's not so much as one external resistor. > TQFP are hand solderable. A bit fiddly, but possible. Yes, you can do surface mount by hand. I've had to do it more often than I care to think about. But, it is not the preferred method of building, unless you are a large manufacturer. > Make your own (or revive a dead) simple architecture. I do exactly that when I can. However, people's prejudices get in the way. I recently designed a data logger that used a Z80 CPU. It actually turned out to be the cheapest and most powerful option. However, my client wanted it converted to an Atmel microcomputer, because he'd gotten the hard sell from an Atmel rep. So the resulting product is cutting edge and high tech, but costs more and has fewer features :-) >> I fear that many of these factors are the same type of things that >> led to the demise of mainframes and the companies that supported >> them. They are exclusionary and monopolistic. People would change, >> but are stuck with the PC status quo because there are no practical >> alternatives. > Then make them one. The Linux and *BSD types have done that for > software. Now its up to the hardware types to follow their lead. Very true! If anything, the digital and analog IC folks once had the lead; they were making generic building blocks, and engineers could easily assemble them into almost any product. Today, new ICs are mostly "appliances"; very rigid in what you can do with them. You can't put them together Lego-like, to build new structures. However, there are things like FPGA (field programmable gate arrays), where you can invent your own IC. Lots of very clever new gadgets have been built with them. I've used them in some of my designs, where their cost doesn't rule them out. And I've done one full-custom analog IC -- very difficult, but justified because they were produced by the millions. But there is a lack of the kind of cooperative efforts between digital designers that you see with Linux developers. Each design is an isolated little island, free-standing onto itself. >> If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the >> functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. > Then do so. It is today in the reach of every dedicated hobbyist. I wish I could! But I am a contract engineer; to eat, I have to do what my clients wish, even if they are clueless pointy-haired boss types. No one is in the mood to finance a new alternative architecture. > Now convert the gripes into action. I'm doing the best I can! -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 02 07:52:37 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D07D24A.7FA70923@ev1.net> <3D0813E6.3070901@prodigy.net> <3D084D5D.FB91B6B6@ev1.net> <3D083977.8000707@prodigy.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZUW95QOfwZuWRAkG0Q/wc8IO/KFgObjmvzIYLv3TpQkEGIIgNn6lCr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2002 11:28:17 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-182-243 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109673 [spit] In article <3D083977.8000707@prodigy.net>, Michal Necasek wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote: >> There are OS's and programs that do *not* require >> you to be a constant nursemaid... >> > I know that. I'm not using Microsoft products when I can >avoid it and I can avoid it most of the time. Check this >post's headers - 100% Microsoft-free. Prodigy? I must be misremembering takeovers. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3D084D5D.FB91B6B6@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D07D24A.7FA70923@ev1.net> <3D0813E6.3070901@prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1023947147 12.237.69.87 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:45:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:45:47 GMT Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:45:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!wn4feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109693 Michal Necasek wrote: > > Charles Richmond wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > >>Lee Hart wrote in message news:<3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net>... > >> > > YES!!! The *real* cost is measured in lost productivity. Time > > that you should spend doing your *real* work is spent baby- > > sitting a system that is full of bugs and needs re-booting, > > re-installing, and generally supporting above and beyond the > > call of duty. > > > If computers were as useful as the vendors claim, the world > couldn't have functioned without them. But since we know it > did... > > Mind you, I'm a sofware engineer so I waste *all day* on > computers! > I am *not* talking about computers...I am referring to Mi$uck technology. There are OS's and programs that do *not* require you to be a constant nursemaid... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D083977.8000707@prodigy.net> From: Michal Necasek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020510 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D07D24A.7FA70923@ev1.net> <3D0813E6.3070901@prodigy.net> <3D084D5D.FB91B6B6@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.122.189.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr16.news.prodigy.com 1023949179 ST000 66.122.189.217 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 02:19:39 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 02:19:39 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: [[PGWXCDVBTQBPPXTPBV]LPD[SPNRVLHWA_D]\YIMYWBDUYACFWEQJ[YMLYRX\_HTFD_KEVLBVXZOJOC@FU]NPXFGNTCYVLH]PX@BQW@GDTPPF\\BSFNIQKARLGEJGZMZLXWJOFMEI]MGKCS[\^]^K_^JKYRW][KMAYOQBGACCFRASDE[DC^MTLFFVSUAV^N Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:19:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr16.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!ad30f8cc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109654 Charles Richmond wrote: > I am *not* talking about computers...I am referring to Mi$uck > technology. > Well I was talking about computers in general. Microsoft has just taken things into the extreme. Or into perfection if you wish :-) > There are OS's and programs that do *not* require > you to be a constant nursemaid... > I know that. I'm not using Microsoft products when I can avoid it and I can avoid it most of the time. Check this post's headers - 100% Microsoft-free. Michal ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 13 Jun 2002 21:17:31 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 134 Message-ID: <6ubsaf0z04.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <6uelfcibrj.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D082D81.2148@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1023995853 598 10.0.3.2 (13 Jun 2002 19:17:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jun 2002 19:17:33 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109702 Lee Hart writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > Connecting an FPGA to some RAM and IO connectors is not that intensive. > > The PC paradigm has dozens of chips, each with 100+ pins to be > interconnected. This forces the design to have far more parts, and so be No need to follow the PC paradigm (collection of specialised chips from an entire slew of specialised manufacturers) when you have got an generl purpose FPGA and so your own single specific chip. > Look inside a PC; you see lots of > boards covered with lots of parts, with thousands of interconnections. Done that far more often that I want to count. > The more general microcomputer paradigm doesn't have 100's of pins, or > require multilayer boards. It gets designed with the absolute minimum > number of pins needed to do the job. Which, if that job requires serious data throughput, using an 32 or 64bit bus, can translate into quite a few pins, even for an simple processor. > And, it includes as many external > parts as possible on one chip. Dito the FPGA. > Ideally, it does 100% of the job with no > other ICs. Look inside a pocket calculator; there is exactly one chip > that does absolutely everything. There is quite a small memory limit if you do that. A large FPGA just about has the RAM of an Z80 generation PC. The small-to-medium-ish XC2S200 I am using has a scant 14*4kbit = 3.5kByte. So FPGA+RAM seems to be the minimum. And that can cost pins. Then add IO connectors with their assorted analog stuff. > client wanted it converted to an Atmel microcomputer, because he'd > gotten the hard sell from an Atmel rep. So the resulting product is > cutting edge and high tech, but costs more and has fewer features :-) Dumb customer. > > Then make them one. The Linux and *BSD types have done that for > > software. Now its up to the hardware types to follow their lead. > > Very true! > > However, there are things like FPGA (field programmable gate arrays), > where you can invent your own IC. Yes. Like in my project, reviving the DEC PDP-10: http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/PDP-10/ And I am not allone in such doing projects: (2 historic systems) http://surfin.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/ PDP-8 http://www.spies.com/~dgc/pdp4x/ PDP-4 (4 modern processors) http://www.fpgacpu.org/xsoc/index.html XR16 http://www.opencores.org/cores/or1k/ OR1000 http://www.opencores.org/cores/or2k/ OR2000 http://www.estec.esa.nl/wsmwww/leon/ Leon SPARC clone (MIPS and ARM aparently also exist) (1 semi-modern system) ftp://137.193.64.130/pub/xproz/ XPROZ directory ftp://137.193.64.130/pub/xproz/system.gif system picture ftp://137.193.64.130/pub/xproz/mainb.gif motherboard picture > But there is a lack of the kind of cooperative efforts between digital > designers that you see with Linux developers. Each design is an isolated > little island, free-standing onto itself. The situation is changing. The hacker/hobby set are just discovering FPGAs and making processors and computers from them: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/05/11/016223 And while the subject still got lukewarm reception one year ago, the interest now seems spiked. And I am just getting ready to start an open source tools project: http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/VirtexTools/ We are today there where microprocessors were 1975, just at the beginning of the hobbyist revolution. You may yet see an new underdog come and give the PC a kick in its butt. > >> If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the > >> functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. > > > Then do so. It is today in the reach of every dedicated hobbyist. > > I wish I could! But I am a contract engineer; to eat, I have to do what > my clients wish, even if they are clueless pointy-haired boss types. Outside of job time there is also hobby time. The later can be expanded at the cost of former, by working part time. Its just a case of weighing financial income vs mental satisfaction. 100% of either is not good. Find an good compromise and aim for it. > one is in the mood to finance a new alternative architecture. Yourself? Like I am. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Message-ID: <3D090E53.4380@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D08058B.F3201169@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:36:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.21.83.242 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1023996960 63.21.83.242 (Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:36:00 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:36:00 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109704 Don Chiasson wrote: > Suppose that instead of the M$ consumer operating systems allowing > full access to everything, that you needed a password to allow root > / superuser / wheel privileges. How many phone calls would M$ get > from people asking, "I've forgotten my password..."? Early PCs had a physical key that you could use to "lock up" your computer. That seems like an eminently workable solution. I think manufacturers took it out simply to save money. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:44:36 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D08058B.F3201169@yahoo.com> <3D090E53.4380@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-128-225.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1024001076 8020 213.1.128.225 (13 Jun 2002 20:44:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:44:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!mango.news.easynet.net!easynet-melon!easynet.net!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109707 "Lee Hart" wrote in message news:3D090E53.4380@earthlink.net... > Don Chiasson wrote: > > Suppose that instead of the M$ consumer operating systems allowing > > full access to everything, that you needed a password to allow root > > / superuser / wheel privileges. How many phone calls would M$ get > > from people asking, "I've forgotten my password..."? > > Early PCs had a physical key that you could use to "lock up" your > computer. That seems like an eminently workable solution. I think > manufacturers took it out simply to save money. It didn't actually do much though. A screwdriver would get around that, and lets say your P4 box did have such a key : It would still be vulnerable to remote exploits even while your keyboard was locked... I think the key would have to go further... Perhaps as a toggle for putting the thing into some kind of "lock down" mode like the securelevel thing on a BSD might be more helpful :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 13 Jun 2002 22:56:41 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <3D08058B.F3201169@yahoo.com> <3D090E53.4380@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109740 In article <3D090E53.4380@earthlink.net>, Lee Hart wrote: >Early PCs had a physical key that you could use to "lock up" your >computer. That seems like an eminently workable solution. I think >manufacturers took it out simply to save money. It only disabled the keyboard. It never got used, and people lost the keys, so it got dropped. It's also only much use if the only way to operate your computer is from that keyboard . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### Message-ID: <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> From: Michal Necasek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020510 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.122.188.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr15.news.prodigy.com 1024459680 ST000 66.122.188.26 (Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:08:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:08:00 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: FKPO@SRD\ZVCRVXX@R]F]ODD[[UTB_LILIXNMVMHQYUJUZ]CCVWCPG[YMDXZH^[K[FFQZHBM@FX\NJOCW^TGNQLFRFU_HSDIHX[FCUWCXLP@PBL\BKFXXVGCM\CCKFVL_T[GJLBM@Q^]WKGS]T]M^NG_YKYVGV_IJYXS@MCBT[@JPRXECDFZMSXG]NVQQTJL Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:08:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!207.115.63.138!newscon04.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr15.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!ad30f8cc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:109969 Rick wrote: > And the current PC hardware has also become it's own worst enemy. Being stuck > with ISA standards circa 1979 (PCI from a technical standpoint is only a > short hop away from that), the refusal to let go of the d*amned vintage > memory and hardware address design and unwarranted adherence to software > backward compatibility for the hardware, all we are running today is a souped > up version of a nearly quarter century old hardware design. > True. But the explanation is real simple. The amount of money invested in software is simply staggering. Hardware costs are nothing compared to costs of software. The "unwarranted" adherence to backward compatibility is worth billions and billions of dollars. That's why it's so important. > The unwillingness of the industry to "let go" and design something > *completely* different - after all, they should have learned a few things > about the initial design limitations of the original PC standard by now - > means they are only reinventing the wheel every six months or so, largely > based upon installation of a faster CPU. > Wrong. The "industry" would be more than happy to drop all the "legacy" stuff this instant. But customers won't let it. Ever heard of machines like NeXT, SGI, PowerPC? They were/are all much cleaner designs than the IBM PC. They also didn't get anywhere because they lacked the magical "installed base". So if today's crummy PC hardware is anyone's fault, it's the fault of people who buy it. Like you (I assume) or me. Michal ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 06:50:40 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.154 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1024405726 205.206.39.154 (Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:08:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:08:46 EDT Organization: WorldCom Canada Ltd. News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110023 In article <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >Speaking of Montreal, there used to be a newstand at the southeast >corner of St. Catherines and Peel which carried practically >everything from everywhere in about a 10x10 foot space (I am >exagerating). That was when the streetcars still ran. You are exaggerating. The miracle was that there were customers moving about inside. Maybe it had 15 feet of street frontage(*). Hard to remember something that small, even with a mind trained to subdivide microseconds. It was there when I was there, in the '70s. Regards. Mel. * Or maybe not. Small! ###### From: Rick Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:34:06 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 133 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110085 Lee Hart wrote: > > There are many directions that computer technology could have gone. The > paradigm we have today assumes: > > - very high pin count ICs; can't build with simple equipment > - ad hoc "standards"; badly designed, promoted for monopolistic reasons > - inflexible designs; can't fix or upgrade > - extreme complexity; almost impossible to debug > - discourage end users from writing their own software > - hardware performance increases squandered by bad software > - hubris; "we know what's best for you -- shut up and buy it" > > I fear that many of these factors are the same type of things that led > to the demise of mainframes and the companies that supported them. They > are exclusionary and monopolistic. People would change, but are stuck > with the PC status quo because there are no practical alternatives. > There are a few rays of hope, like Macs and Linux, but for the most part > Intel and Microsoft rule. > > If one could start with a blank sheet of paper, a "black box" with the > functionality of a PC could be built with 1/100th the parts and cost. > Rather than an elitist 1% of the world being able to afford computers, > it could become a truly egalitarian device that vastly more people could > use. With lower prices and simpler hardware, a vast new range of devices > could become available. > > > The sources are available for your infinite perusal and modification > > to fit your individual needs, or write your own OS and applications > > if you wish. Are you going to do this? What is your reason for > > wanting to do this? I can think of many but most folks just want to > > get that letter written or that slide show prepared or that > > spreadsheet done or ... You can today, however, own you own > > powerful computer and bend it to your will, whatever that is. > > The tools you have influence what you build. It is said that to a man > with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The PC is a particularly > lumpy, ungainly tool; the solutions it encourages are equally lumpy and > ungainly. But if this is all people know, they accept it as "normal". > > As I said, I'm an engineer. I design products that use microcomputers, > but they are usually not even remotely PC compatible. They include film > processors and printers; controls for ovens, refrigerators, furnaces, > and other home appliances; thermostats, battery chargers, and various > computer peripherals. Ah! But what about the "great vision" of Bill Gates? Hasn't "Mr. Bill" envisioned the day when common appliances can all "talk" to each other? Smart toasters, defective refrigerators that can call into the network and schedule their own repairs, coffee makers that "know" when to start automatically based upon when you set your wake-up alarm... > What I see is that the early microcomputers were general-purpose > devices; very versatile, and relatively simple to understand, use, and > program. As the years have progressed, these small microcomputers have > become ever more arcane and specialized. You could build a > general-purpose computer with a Z80 or 6502, but you can't with a PIC or > DSP. The microcomputer in a product today is often explicitly designed > for that sort of application, and gets hard to use for anything else. > People who design and build with these chips also become specialists. > They have to learn a whole new set of hardware, languages, and > development tools to move from one application to another. > > This hinders progress, because if I want to design something new for > which there is no custom-designed micro, I have a large selection of > poor choices. > > The PC hardware has evolved in a totally bizarre direction. No engineer > in his right mind would design a system like it. It is so far off in its > own world that it doesn't resemble anything else. Yet it is such a > massive influence that it warps everyone's thinking. And the current PC hardware has also become it's own worst enemy. Being stuck with ISA standards circa 1979 (PCI from a technical standpoint is only a short hop away from that), the refusal to let go of the d*amned vintage memory and hardware address design and unwarranted adherence to software backward compatibility for the hardware, all we are running today is a souped up version of a nearly quarter century old hardware design. The unwillingness of the industry to "let go" and design something *completely* different - after all, they should have learned a few things about the initial design limitations of the original PC standard by now - means they are only reinventing the wheel every six months or so, largely based upon installation of a faster CPU. There is nothing inherently new about a new PC. It only runs the same, tired software faster. Maybe with a new GUI slapped on the same software that doesn't add any real new functionality. The industry has gone soft because there is nothing new to sell. Gee, do I really need to replace my 700MHz computer with a 1GHz computer? After that, the feature comparisons rapidly drop off. And the mantra of Microsoft - Got a problem with your system? Reinstall the operating system - is wearing real thin. The software is so bloated that Redmond doesn't even understand what most BSOD error messages really mean. Nor do the software vendors. Nor do the hardware vendors. Nor do... The headaches that can be involved to get the "state of the art" software to address and properly run any given piece of hardware can be mind boggling. > This is what I meant by computer technology being stuck on a plateau. I agree. Unless/until the industry develops new, true standards that get as far away as possible from what we have now nothing really new is possible. Like it or not, there are only so many versions of a spreadsheet that can be had. Running a spreadsheet on a lowly PC/XT or a Pentium 4 under W2K, the numbers come out the same. Whether you are convinced you "have" to do it via a bloated OS with a pretty GUI that is largely running on the same hardware - the sole difference being a faster CPU and vastly different memory requirements - is the only trick the industry has to sell you, basically, more of the same. The state of the art is static and has limited worth. Ditto with the direction MS licensing is going with their OS. You will be paying in the very near future an annual "subscription fee" for an OS that should have been completely retired in concept after Win 95. Whether or not anything truly new has been added to it that makes the PC more functional, standard, or easier to operate it *will* be "upgraded", and you will be forced to purchase the upgrades, in order to keep that quarter of a century old hardware design running. Toss the whole thing out, simplify the hardware, eliminate a whole mess of old hardware design "features", and build a new OS that doesn't rely on any backward compatibility from a hardware or software viewpoint. And maybe point the cost of the OS at the software vendors instead. If they design a piece of software that the market really wants, let the software vendor pay an OS fee for each piece of software sold that runs on the OS - from spreadsheets to toaster firmware - rather than sticking every consumer with the cost for a current OS which has gone mad. > > Sorry to ramble on. Well, see what you made me do. 8- ) ###### From: brian_huntley@hotmail.com (Brian Huntley) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 19 Jun 2002 06:14:54 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2072304b.0206190514.7a525db7@posting.google.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 142.205.241.46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024492495 16084 127.0.0.1 (19 Jun 2002 13:14:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2002 13:14:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110070 CBFalconer wrote in message news:<3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com>... > > Speaking of Montreal, there used to be a newstand at the southeast > corner of St. Catherines and Peel which carried practically > everything from everywhere in about a 10x10 foot space (I am > exagerating). That was when the streetcars still ran. "Peel News", no? I used to pick up certain magazines there related to aviation and electronics, and always had to be careful to get editions in a language I could read. Man, they carried a lot of stuff! ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:26:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-200-26.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1024435604 29121 213.122.200.26 (18 Jun 2002 21:26:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:26:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!news-feed1.de1.concert.net!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110053 "Rick" wrote in message news:3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com... [SNIP] > Ah! But what about the "great vision" of Bill Gates? Hasn't "Mr. Bill" > envisioned the day when common appliances can all "talk" to each other? Smart > toasters, defective refrigerators that can call into the network and schedule > their own repairs, coffee makers that "know" when to start automatically > based upon when you set your wake-up alarm... Aha, I see the problem already... Defective on delivery appliances... 6 years ago my Aunt tossed a (still nearly working) LEC Fridge when she moved house. It was purchased in the 50s... Amazing how we put up with the planned obselence thing, it isn't necessary. If we took a build it to last approach the only losers would be the Corps and we'd have more spare time to do fun things. :) When you take the long view most people will conclude that this modern day consume thing isn't "natural", it isn't "necessary" and it sure as hell isn't sustainable. Ack, I can feel a really big rant coming. *zip* [SNIP] > the current PC hardware has also become it's own worst enemy. Being stuck > with ISA standards circa 1979 (PCI from a technical standpoint is only a > short hop away from that), the refusal to let go of the d*amned vintage Cough cough... PCI is quite a long hop away from ISA. Sure people hang ISA style peripherals on the bus, but it sure as hell ain't anything like as the ISA bus. :) > memory and hardware address design and unwarranted adherence to software > backward compatibility for the hardware, all we are running today is a souped > up version of a nearly quarter century old hardware design. That does annoy me, but tough I guess. :P [SNIP] > Ditto with the direction MS licensing is going with their OS. You will be > paying in the very near future an annual "subscription fee" for an OS that > should have been completely retired in concept after Win 95. Whether or not Actually, I find it quite amusing. I remember Bill berating the big boys for their "licensing" system instead of Billwarez inc's one off up front fee... Funny how the hero of the smallguy has suddenly decided to use a mainframe style software "rental" model but without the maintenence... :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Rick Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:40:53 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3D0F8CC4.474ACCE2@rcn.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <8327b166.0206120919.79ab0061@posting.google.com> <3D080D82.106E@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110084 Lee Hart wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Many users would discover that the blank sheet of paper delivers most > > of the functionality they need :-) > > An excellent point! Touche'! :-) > > > I'm personally not so much concerned about the hardware cost of a > > PC-clone > > Yes, they are cheap compared to the average American's income. But they > cost many times more than the average world worker makes in a year! > > > it's the requisite user-supplied software maintenance (including the > > multiple-times-a-day reboot/reinstalls associated with a Windows > > platform) that I see as the real cost. But gee, wasn't that the complaint lodged agains Win 3.1? LOL! > Agreed. That's why I'm using DOS 6.2 and Windows 3.1. Negligible crash > rate. Ditto. The only crash problems I have are with Netscape, which is known to have problems. But my entire system doesn't fall apart requiring multiple OS reinstalls on a weekly basis. Would you dare run something important - like accounting software - on a Win 9x platform? Scary concept. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:42:45 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-135-212.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1024461765 20879 213.1.135.212 (19 Jun 2002 04:42:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 04:42:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110039 "Michal Necasek" wrote in message news:3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net... [SNIP] > Ever heard of machines like NeXT, SGI, PowerPC? They were/are all much > cleaner designs than the IBM PC. They also didn't get anywhere because NeXT : Hugely inflated price & freak development environment (scares PHBS - which are the only ones who could sanction the purchase of such a beast). SGI : Hugely expensive, highly scalable and still doing OK thankyou very much. MIPS cores are doing *VERY* well thank you very much (embedded). PowerPC : Very cheap, pretty much covers the entire performance & power consumption range. Doing very well thank you very much. Let me add some : SPARC : Doing very well thank you very much. Alpha : Doing well despite being dead (systems also borrowed PC style peripherals). :) ARM : Doing very well despite being within INTEL's evil clutches. Notice how the first thing they did was to rename theirs "XScale" ? > they lacked the magical "installed base". > So if today's crummy PC hardware is anyone's fault, it's the fault > of people who buy it. Like you (I assume) or me. Pretty soon I don't think that people can use the OS as the reason to stay... When '9x dies there are virtually zero % of the worlds 'crummy PC' apps which rely on accessing the hardware directly, it's down to the OS vendors alone at that point. Cheers, Rupert ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 19 Jun 2002 18:45:45 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 127 Message-ID: <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1024505147 1320 10.0.3.2 (19 Jun 2002 16:45:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2002 16:45:47 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110096 "Rupert Pigott" writes: > "Michal Necasek" wrote in message > > > Ever heard of machines like NeXT, SGI, PowerPC? They were/are all much > > cleaner designs than the IBM PC. They also didn't get anywhere because > > NeXT : Hugely inflated price & freak development > environment (scares PHBS - which are the only ones > who could sanction the purchase of such a beast). Funny claim that. It was exactly the devel stuff that got PHBs in banks and trading centers to buy NeXTs to slash devel costs and time to market. They were so successfull in doing that, that NeXT ditched the hardware part of the firm and went to being an SW company for Inteloids. P.S: I was president of the Swiss NeXT User Group at that time, so I have an insider view of what happened there. I sold off my NeXT to another user group member years ago - switched to an 486 PC with Linux 1.2.9. > SGI : Hugely expensive, highly scalable and still > doing OK thankyou very much. Well OK, sort of. The servers (no user software problems) are selling nicely, thanks to their ccNUMA architecture. The workstation side is limping on. P.S: Just 1.5 months ago left an job as SGI sysadmin. Partially because SGI workstations (and all the interesting work in designing managment for them) are EOL at that site (change to Macs and W2K, because of user software availability). Bad to see that happen, nice machines - at least I got an Indy 5000SC150 with ZX graphics 4G HD and 160M RAM for $100 out of it. > MIPS cores are doing > *VERY* well thank you very much (embedded). Not a general purpose office computer, so off-topic for this thread. But yes, they power quite a bit of embedded stuff (but PPC405 seems to be badly pushing them out there), and of course the PlayStations. > PowerPC : Very cheap, pretty much covers the entire > performance & power consumption range. Doing very > well thank you very much. Comes in about 99% of the cases with Mac architecture around it. Badly documented, changes in binary interface without annoncement (just always use the newest CD delivered with it, with yet annother silent MacOS patch level Update to handle yet annother combination of chips). Makes them sort of frustrating for non-MacOS users. Me and an office colleague tried Linux on Mac (me iMac400, him G4 Desktop) and were not positively impressed. Fast they are, but compatibility is like quicksand. > Let me add some : > SPARC : Doing very well thank you very much. Sort of. At least here at the university where I work it is Sun-set time. Next to no new purchases, migration off of old ones, as soon as disk expansion costs more than an new PC server. Outside of Sun SPARC is just about dead, as fas as office computing goes. > Alpha : Doing well despite being dead (systems > also borrowed PC style peripherals). :) Actual new stuff coming down the line? Some life still in the Alpha/VMS world, but out Alpha based Linux server has stayed an one-off. Not enough advantages over Intel to justify the software situation. > ARM : Doing very well despite being within INTEL's > evil clutches. Notice how the first thing they did > was to rename theirs "XScale" ? Also no general purpose office computer, since Acorn died. > > they lacked the magical "installed base". Exactly. No Windows+Office binary install. > > So if today's crummy PC hardware is anyone's fault, it's the fault > > of people who buy it. Like you (I assume) or me. Exactly. But today it is not PC (political correct, not personal computer) to suggest that customers are at fault. #define CUSTOMER_WANTS to tun their Windows OS and Office x386 binaries #define RIGHT CUSTOMER_WANTS > Pretty soon I don't think that people can use the > OS as the reason to stay... When '9x dies there are > virtually zero % of the worlds 'crummy PC' apps > which rely on accessing the hardware directly, But there still will be OSes (WNT/W2K/WXP) that demand x386 in their common distributed binaries. Linux and BSD are making users CPU and architecture independant, but they are not going to generate new office computer hardware architectures. > it's > down to the OS vendors alone at that point. Microsoft: you kidding (see also death of WNT MIPS and Alpha). Linux/BSD: not large enough. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### Message-ID: <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> From: Michal Necasek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.0rc2) Gecko/20020510 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.122.188.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com 1024537376 ST000 66.122.188.152 (Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:42:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:42:56 EDT Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com X-UserInfo1: O@ZAR_GDTBUOB[Q]GKFFMAXFQ[UTB_PHCIXN]QQIQIUBTW]CLVSC@EK[F\]NHVKHGNDWJC^M@NXT_G[BXVTCNVLGTNVUX_DIHX[@SS[@EDQHA@L\[S@FX__AGLE]JJ^MBDX]ZCZLPQ^UGDOS@\\INHK_@S^@FVWH^YXS@MCB[[AXAQLDYLBJ]\LD]NVOPTBM Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:42:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!news.tufts.edu!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!prodigy.com!newsmst01.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr17.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!ad30f8cc!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110113 Neil Franklin wrote: >>> So if today's crummy PC hardware is anyone's fault, it's the fault >>>of people who buy it. Like you (I assume) or me. > > Exactly. But today it is not PC (political correct, not personal > computer) to suggest that customers are at fault. > > #define CUSTOMER_WANTS to tun their Windows OS and Office x386 binaries > #define RIGHT CUSTOMER_WANTS > I can afford not to be politically correct :-) As usual, the problem here is the preference of short-term goals to long-term ones. By successively concentrating on the next few months, after 20 years you end up pretty badly screwed. >>it's >>down to the OS vendors alone at that point. > > Microsoft: you kidding (see also death of WNT MIPS and Alpha). > Exactly. Windows NT supported MIPS, PowerPC and Alpha machines at one point. Microsoft dropped support for all of them. And it wasn't because Microsoft is evil (which they IMO are) but because practically nobody used those platforms. Even though apps were often "just a recompile away", not many vendors offered non-x86 versions of their software. As long as there is the incredible installed base of x86 apps, the x86 architecture isn't going away. One of the sad facts of life. Michal ###### From: blackm00@cam.org (Michael Black) Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 19 Jun 2002 22:53:44 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6447bcd3.0206192153.421c5467@posting.google.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> <2072304b.0206190514.7a525db7@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.84.44.99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1024552425 22326 127.0.0.1 (20 Jun 2002 05:53:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jun 2002 05:53:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110192 brian_huntley@hotmail.com (Brian Huntley) wrote in message news:<2072304b.0206190514.7a525db7@posting.google.com>... > CBFalconer wrote in message news:<3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com>... > > > > Speaking of Montreal, there used to be a newstand at the southeast > > corner of St. Catherines and Peel which carried practically > > everything from everywhere in about a 10x10 foot space (I am > > exagerating). That was when the streetcars still ran. > > "Peel News", no? > > I used to pick up certain magazines there related to aviation and > electronics, and always had to be careful to get editions in a > language I could read. Man, they carried a lot of stuff! There was a very small "newsstand" on Peel just a couple of doors down from St. Catherine Street, but what I'm thinking of would be on the SouthWest corner. I had to look it up to get the name, but the store I'm familiar with is "Metropolitan News". Maybe as much as a decade ago, they moved, to Cypress, which is a side street and the next one down from St. Catherine Street. I haven't been past there in ages, but they are still listed in the phone directory. It was a small space, too small to be a useful space. I bought some newspapers there decades ago, but never paid much attention to the magazines. You could get newspapers from all over the world there. I went into the new location when they first moved, and it was about as small, and seemed to have the same stock. I remember being in the store on Peel, and being unable to even look at covers of magazines without having to squeeze out of the way for people to pass. So I didn't have much enthusiasm for the place. When Byte came around, the "rival" place was "International News". They had on St. Catherine Street near Atwater, but the main store was on de Maisoneuve near Guy, ie close to Concordia University. That had space to move, and when I discovered it I was amazed by all the magazines you could buy. And that was right about the time when the small computer magazines started up, so I was in there regularly glancing at them and often buying them, in the period before we got a computer store here (the first, from my experience, was "Futur Byte"). "International News" is no longer; the stores having been consumed by a local chain of magazine stores, "Multi-Mag", and the magazines don't seem as interesting. I'm not sure if that's because a quarter century the novelty has worn off, the magazine industry has become less interesting, or what. Michael ###### Message-ID: <3D11AFC1.5FB75F90@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1024562165 12.237.69.87 (Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:36:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:36:05 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:36:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110213 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > "Michal Necasek" wrote in message > news:3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net... > [SNIP] > > Ever heard of machines like NeXT, SGI, PowerPC? They were/are all much > > cleaner designs than the IBM PC. They also didn't get anywhere because > > NeXT : Hugely inflated price & freak development > environment (scares PHBS - which are the only ones > who could sanction the purchase of such a beast). > But good enough for Berniers-Lee to invent the World Wide WEB on... > > SGI : Hugely expensive, highly scalable and still > doing OK thankyou very much. MIPS cores are doing > *VERY* well thank you very much (embedded). > And AIU, a great platform for visualization software... > > PowerPC : Very cheap, pretty much covers the entire > performance & power consumption range. Doing very > well thank you very much. > And good enough to control the Mars Pathfinder robot... > > Let me add some : > SPARC : Doing very well thank you very much. > But is it getting faster like the others??? > > Alpha : Doing well despite being dead (systems > also borrowed PC style peripherals). :) > I understand that Compaq sold the service contracts to IBM for the Alpha's in the business world... > > ARM : Doing very well despite being within INTEL's > evil clutches. Notice how the first thing they did > was to rename theirs "XScale" ? > This was used in the original Apple Newtons...I am glad that the ARM architecture is surviving... > > > they lacked the magical "installed base". > > > So if today's crummy PC hardware is anyone's fault, it's the fault > > of people who buy it. Like you (I assume) or me. > It's the fault of the PHB's who bought PC-Dos because it was IBM. The IBM name is what proliferated this garbage architecture across the world. Mi$uck used IBM to launch itself into Crosus mode orbit... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:05:05 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <3D11AFC1.5FB75F90@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-131-136.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1024578305 12261 213.1.131.136 (20 Jun 2002 13:05:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:05:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110190 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message news:3D11AFC1.5FB75F90@ev1.net... [SNIP] > > ARM : Doing very well despite being within INTEL's > > evil clutches. Notice how the first thing they did > > was to rename theirs "XScale" ? > > > This was used in the original Apple Newtons...I am > glad that the ARM architecture is surviving... Apparently most mobile phones use an ARM core of some description. Most mobiles do a lot of basic "office" style stuff (calendar, calculator, organiser, games, address book, electronic messaging). I think eventually the PC will just wither away and die, swamped by PDAs. Most people don't give a toss about security, so wireless PDAs will be a pretty natural step forward beyond the notebook. Cheaper to maintain as well. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <3D11AFC1.5FB75F90@ev1.net> Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:06:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.43.220.117 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rogers.com X-Trace: news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com 1024578385 24.43.220.117 (Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:06:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:06:25 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!news03.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com!news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com.POSTED!12dc6cf53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110163 "Charles Richmond" wrote in message news:3D11AFC1.5FB75F90@ev1.net... [snip...] > > > > > they lacked the magical "installed base". > > > > > So if today's crummy PC hardware is anyone's fault, it's the fault > > > of people who buy it. Like you (I assume) or me. > > > It's the fault of the PHB's who bought PC-Dos because it was > IBM. The IBM name is what proliferated this garbage architecture > across the world. Mi$uck used IBM to launch itself into Crosus > mode orbit... > There were a lot of personal computers around in 1981 when IBM announced the PC. Companies don't want to get caught in the expensive trap of supporting a variety of incompatible machines, many from companies that might go out of business. IBM gave good, though not necessarily cheap, support for their computers. There was a range of motives on all sides. For example, I think IBM saw the PC as a way to get more people to use their mainframes. M$ did not initially use IBM, but were delighted to get the job to supply PC-DOS (and Basic). Later M$ found itself in the position where every part of the PC was a standard, inexpensive component with many suppliers available. Except, of course, for the operating system. Thus the M$ monopoly, and a license to print money. The history of those times is interesting. I suggest reading "Fire in the Valley." Things were not as clear 21 years ago as they seem now. ---Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 36 Message-ID: <9h2Q8.25424$8i1.1584441@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:26:45 CDT X-Trace: sv3-fDc7LnGisx/32ELloq8RvEwRbO+3f45yeRxpxdd2S2olOmJV2YHMFGSEgCvj2NCNvoFg0FpKylE9pxt!RboSMzv9Ox917lPd2ix82KciUSX/j/ktHMMy5XXdhml9p45SivVEOAOG9pA8wMuxFPAHNz4cYX8r!wZ2aMJmBQm71b2G5ugSuCVtK X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:26:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110222 I've snipped the following out of the distribution list: alt.collecting.magazines alt.marketplace.collectables comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic They did not seem appropriate to the continued content I'm adding below. In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: > >NeXT : Hugely inflated price & freak development >environment (scares PHBS - which are the only ones >who could sanction the purchase of such a beast). I wasn't really in a position to buy/be concerned with NeXT hardware, but I always got the impression that NeXT's vacillation on market strategy really hurt them. As I understand it, they tried to play into several roles in really rapid succession: - $6,500 'educational' computer - Post-Macintosh DTP workstation - Financial services development environment - Alternative PC Operating System - Cross-Platform (NT, HP/UX, Solaris, Mach) App Framework - Web App Framework ...then, much later... - Apple PC OS Maybe I'm misremembering, but I really wish they had focued more on building market share than trying to keep redefining their clientele. I hope that NeXT has success as a part of Apple, but that whole enterprise seems pretty troubled. -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:14:22 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-135-217.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1024506862 2875 213.1.135.217 (19 Jun 2002 17:14:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:14:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110188 "Neil Franklin" wrote in message news:6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > "Rupert Pigott" writes: [SNIP] > But there still will be OSes (WNT/W2K/WXP) that demand x386 in their > common distributed binaries. Linux and BSD are making users CPU and > architecture independant, but they are not going to generate new > office computer hardware architectures. > > > it's > > down to the OS vendors alone at that point. > > Microsoft: you kidding (see also death of WNT MIPS and Alpha). > Linux/BSD: not large enough. So you're not disagreeing with me then. It is down to the OS vendors to pick & choose the hardware platform from then on. Whether they will choose to dump the troublesome stuff which is a headache to support is up to them. I suspect MS will, they have a habit of telling people what they want. eg: "95 : No, you don't want AGP & USB.", "ME : Yes, you do want AGP & USB, no you don't want DOS". Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:22:35 +0200 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 19 Message-ID: <20020619192235.6196a64d.steveo@eircom.net> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: rot2-p0984.dial.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1024514487 45033 62.234.201.216 (19 Jun 2002 19:21:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:21:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.6) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110175 On 19 Jun 2002 18:45:45 +0200 Neil Franklin wrote: NF> "Rupert Pigott" writes: NF> > ARM : Doing very well despite being within INTEL's NF> > evil clutches. Notice how the first thing they did NF> > was to rename theirs "XScale" ? NF> NF> Also no general purpose office computer, since Acorn died. True enough - but the Gameboy helps the turnover a bit methinks. Now if only there were a port of NetBSD for the Gameboy :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3D12549C.6BAD4CD1@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <3D11AFC1.5FB75F90@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc02 1024604370 12.237.69.87 (Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:19:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:19:30 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:19:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc02.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110233 Don Chiasson wrote: > > "Charles Richmond" wrote in message > news:3D11AFC1.5FB75F90@ev1.net... > > [snip...] > > > > > > > they lacked the magical "installed base". > > > > > > > So if today's crummy PC hardware is anyone's fault, it's the > fault > > > > of people who buy it. Like you (I assume) or me. > > > > > It's the fault of the PHB's who bought PC-Dos because it was > > IBM. The IBM name is what proliferated this garbage architecture > > across the world. Mi$uck used IBM to launch itself into Crosus > > mode orbit... > > > There were a lot of personal computers around in 1981 when > IBM announced the PC. Companies don't want to get caught > in the expensive trap of supporting a variety of incompatible > machines, many from companies that might go out of business. > IBM gave good, though not necessarily cheap, support for their > computers. There was a range of motives on all sides. For > example, I think IBM saw the PC as a way to get more > people to use their mainframes. > Yes, but IMHO the IBM name was the real driving force. IIRC, businesses were initially very leary of buying clones...when the clones were more powerful and less expensive than the IBM PC's, and could run all the same software. > > M$ did not initially use IBM, but were delighted to get the > job to supply PC-DOS (and Basic). Later M$ found itself > in the position where every part of the PC was a standard, > inexpensive component with many suppliers available. > Except, of course, for the operating system. Thus the M$ > monopoly, and a license to print money. > I understand that Mi$uck started well before the IBM PC. But the PC is what rocketed M$ to the financial stratosphere. > > The history of those times is interesting. I suggest > reading "Fire in the Valley." Things were not as clear > 21 years ago as they seem now. > I have read this book...and it is full of factual errors. So yes, read it...but keep a jaundiced eye on the specifics... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 04:08:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.21.83.46 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1024632498 63.21.83.46 (Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:08:18 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:08:18 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!208.49.253.98!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110248 Michal Necasek wrote: > As long as there is the incredible installed base of x86 apps, > the x86 architecture isn't going away. One of the sad facts of > life. Ah, but that is how the computing world looked when IBM mainframes ruled the roost. And then along came microcomputers. In the "bad old days", legacy software lived on because they wrote emulators so customers could still run the old programs on new hardware. The performance increases in the new hardware was often enough to compensate for the emulation (i.e. the emulator ran the old software faster on the new machine than the old machine ever did). We have examples of this today. You can get "Virtual PC" for your Mac PowerPC, which is a software emulation of a Pentium PC. Yes, the emulation runs 5-10x slower; but the newest PowerPCs are so fast that it still behaves like a reasonably fast PC. So, what I predict will happen is that someone will build an entirely new computer, with an architecture optimized for today's technology. It will have 1/10th the number of parts and complexity of a typical PC, and sell for 1/2 the cost (it could be sold for 1/10th the cost, but the designers will have to pay off their venture capitalists :-) Even though its architecture won't be even remotely PC compatible, it will break into market by completely emulating the PC at full, or even enhanced speed. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### Message-ID: <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:49:57 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: 1024710597 reader1.ash.ops.us.uu.net 16371 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!spool0900.news.uu.net!reader0901.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110309 Lee Hart wrote: > > Michal Necasek wrote: > > As long as there is the incredible installed base of x86 apps, > > the x86 architecture isn't going away. One of the sad facts of > > life. > > Ah, but that is how the computing world looked when IBM mainframes ruled > the roost. And then along came microcomputers. > > In the "bad old days", legacy software lived on because they wrote > emulators so customers could still run the old programs on new hardware. > The performance increases in the new hardware was often enough to > compensate for the emulation (i.e. the emulator ran the old software > faster on the new machine than the old machine ever did). > > We have examples of this today. You can get "Virtual PC" for your Mac > PowerPC, which is a software emulation of a Pentium PC. Yes, the > emulation runs 5-10x slower; but the newest PowerPCs are so fast that it > still behaves like a reasonably fast PC. > > So, what I predict will happen is that someone will build an entirely > new computer, with an architecture optimized for today's technology. It > will have 1/10th the number of parts and complexity of a typical PC, and > sell for 1/2 the cost (it could be sold for 1/10th the cost, but the > designers will have to pay off their venture capitalists :-) Even > though its architecture won't be even remotely PC compatible, it will > break into market by completely emulating the PC at full, or even > enhanced speed. I see what you're talking about - indeed, it is already happening on the CPU side with the Transmeta Crusoe - but I disagree that emulation will reduce overall costs. IMHO, nearly all the costs of a PC today are related to support of an already very fragile "deck of cards". We have emulated peripherals up the wazoo - printer drivers that make stone-dead- stupid but cheap printers look like Epson MX80's, the whole ATAPI CD-ROM scheme where we send SCSI commands over a cheap IDE bus behind an emulation layer, BIOS's for SCSI disks to get the OS started but which nobody would ever use after the boot loader, etc. Already to many PC users it's an endless nightmare to upgrade a peripheral in their system because they're completely out of control when it comes to what-is-emulated-where-by-whose-widget and how to remove the old stuff while still being able to install the new stuff. Goddamn it, users still have to allocate IRQ's even on machines that don't have an ISA bus. And I know folks with brand new machines who tell me they are limited by the 540 MB IDE barrier of the early 90's. (I don't believe them, but they're too busy tweaking IRQ's and twiddling drivers to show me what they're trying to do.) Adding an emulation layer in the *right* way can actually help the support issues. But so far the market has almost always done it the *wrong* way, as a quick hack to make a stupid interface look like some previous stupid interface. What is the *right* way? To completely abandon all compatibility with the current house-of-cards. I like the old IBM mainframe "channel" model of I/O, but it's hard to imagine an implementation of it which would be cheaper than what we have right now, and certainly not at the price you're aiming for. Tim. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:33:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-134-205.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: venus.btinternet.com 1024731183 15634 213.1.134.205 (22 Jun 2002 07:33:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:33:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110325 "Tim Shoppa" wrote in message news:3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com... [SNIP] > What is the *right* way? To completely abandon all compatibility > with the current house-of-cards. I like the old IBM mainframe > "channel" model of I/O, but it's hard to imagine an > implementation of it which would be cheaper than what we have right > now, and certainly not at the price you're aiming for. I saw one interesting proposal. High speed point to point serial i/f with JVM binaries on ROMS on the devices. The interfaces would support dynamic binding (hence hot-swap is handled). Nifty & flexible idea. Before everyone throws their arms up in the air and says "oh no but Java is slow", the device I/O routines are likely to be *small* and hence you can quite trivially pre-compile them into native code. This was proposed in the mid-late 90s. Of course high-speed Serial I/O would never take off, right ? :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3D137C93.58CA@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D12DC72.294AD67@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 58 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:24:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.21.84.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1024680256 63.21.84.137 (Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:24:16 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:24:16 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!f32b007b!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110249 Lee Hart wrote: >> So, what I predict will happen is that someone will build an entirely >> new computer, with an architecture optimized for today's technology. Charles Richmond wrote: > I thought that this was what the Caruso microprocessor was > supposed to do... You know, from that Meta-something company > that Linus Torvals works at... I think the Crusoe is from Transmeta. And yes, it is the sort of thing I am referring to. My understanding is that the PC's hardware architecture (memory and I/O) is basically the same as any PC. No savings there. But the Crusoe CPU chip is far simpler than the Intel chips. Thus it is cheaper, and takes less power. The downside is that it is missing many of the hardware features of the Intel. To be able to run PC software (which assumes these features are present), the Crusoe emulates them in software. Since software emulation is slower than hardware, it runs slower. >> Even though its architecture won't be even remotely PC compatible, >> it will break into market by completely emulating the PC at full, >> or even enhanced speed. Larry Weiss wrote: > And it will emulate any other viable architecture concurrently with > all others. Even today, 32-bit Microsoft OS's like NT4 or W2000 use > Virtual Device Drivers to emulate a lot of the original IBM PC's > hardware architecture in order to host older 16-bit applications > that try to gain access directly to the hardware. Here, the CPU and memory stay the same (no savings). But the I/O architecture is changed to simplify it. The missing I/O is emulated in software. This will save a on little hardware cost, but run a little slower when this I/O is used. But, most new PCs blindly include all of the old PCs I/O anyway, because they don't know what software their customers will want to run. The kind of thing I am thinking about would have NEITHER an Intel-compatible CPU, nor any of the PC's I/O hardware. BOTH of these would be emulated. Since the designers know right from the start that the computer will be used for emulation, it would probably have a software-configurable instruction set, which can be initialized for the particular CPU it needs to emulate. Likewise, when the instruction set is configurable, it becomes particularly easy to emulate particular I/O functions. My guess is that such a computer will not have an architecture anything like what we see today. For example, it would probably have a dozen or more CPUs, each emulating one particular part of the PC. -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### Message-ID: <3D12DC72.294AD67@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1024639143 12.237.69.87 (Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:59:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:59:03 GMT Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:59:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110353 Lee Hart wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > So, what I predict will happen is that someone will build an entirely > new computer, with an architecture optimized for today's technology. It > will have 1/10th the number of parts and complexity of a typical PC, and > sell for 1/2 the cost (it could be sold for 1/10th the cost, but the > designers will have to pay off their venture capitalists :-) Even > though its architecture won't be even remotely PC compatible, it will > break into market by completely emulating the PC at full, or even > enhanced speed. > I thought that this was what the Caruso microprocessor was supposed to do... You know, from that Meta-something company that Linus Torvals works at... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:21:22 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 14 Message-ID: <702F1863CC61FE58.28EEB1705C8FEFF2.3FAF6E7305B055A4@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <3D133662.6B5F2EAF@airmail.net> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Jun 21 09:22:14 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !c&Mr1k-W^5ZnLT/i"LK (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110270 Lee Hart wrote: > So, what I predict will happen is that someone will build an entirely > new computer, with an architecture optimized for today's technology.... > ... Even though its architecture won't be even remotely PC compatible, > it will break into market by completely emulating the PC at full, or even > enhanced speed. > And it will emulate any other viable architecture concurrently with all others. Even today, 32-bit Microsoft OS's like NT4 or W2000 use Virtual Device Drivers to emulate a lot of the original IBM PC's hardware architecture in order to host older 16-bit applications that try to gain access directly to the hardware. - LarryW ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:41:08 -0700 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3D134914.DD39D736@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@dhcp-171-69-75-4.cisco.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110374 Lee Hart wrote: > > > So, what I predict will happen is that someone will build an entirely > new computer, with an architecture optimized for today's technology. It > will have 1/10th the number of parts and complexity of a typical PC, and > sell for 1/2 the cost (it could be sold for 1/10th the cost, but the > designers will have to pay off their venture capitalists :-) Even > though its architecture won't be even remotely PC compatible, it will > break into market by completely emulating the PC at full, or even > enhanced speed. > -- > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen How far are the Transmeta chips from your goal? JKA -- You can't reason someone out of something they haven't been reasoned into. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983to 1993 Date: 20 Jun 02 12:33:39 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <573.936T1995T7535052@sky.bus.com> References: <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-306.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!mango.news.easynet.net!easynet-monga!easynet.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!216.148.52.16!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110260 In article <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> michaln@prodigy.net (Michal Necasek) writes: > As long as there is the incredible installed base of x86 apps, >the x86 architecture isn't going away. One of the sad facts of >life. Or, as I love to contribute to the language flame wars: The only reason everyone uses COBOL is that everyone uses COBOL. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: 22 Jun 2002 16:44:08 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 72 Message-ID: <6u8z57idaf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1024757052 403 10.0.3.2 (22 Jun 2002 14:44:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jun 2002 14:44:12 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110377 "Rupert Pigott" writes: > "Tim Shoppa" wrote in message > news:3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com... > [SNIP] > > with the current house-of-cards. I like the old IBM mainframe > > "channel" model of I/O, but it's hard to imagine an > > implementation of it which would be cheaper than what we have right > > now, and certainly not at the price you're aiming for. > > I saw one interesting proposal. High speed point to point > serial i/f That is already happening. - SCSI is going serial (sort of merging with Fibre Channel) - IDE is going serial (SATA) - Some high end servers already use serial interprocessor comms, like the SGI Origin machines - Intels newer northbridge/southbridge chips communicate serially - AMDs Hammer/Opteron Processor has no northbrigge, but drives memory direct and speaks to the rest of the world (other processors or southbridge) via 8 serial links. - and of course over 10 years ago Transputer links :-) [me looks over to drawer with Tek-4/8 clone of IMS-B004 board in it] > with JVM binaries on ROMS on the devices. The Open- devices in Suns and Macs use an byte coded Forth VM in their ROMs. And that stuff is being ported to the PC. > interfaces would support dynamic binding (hence hot-swap > is handled). Nifty & flexible idea. Typical for serial. > Before everyone throws their arms up in the air and says > "oh no but Java is slow", the device I/O routines are > likely to be *small* And no GUIs. That is what is really slow in Java. That awfull Swing GUI stuff. Ever tried running an Swing program over an 256k line? I only wanted to use the 10 times faster processor at the other end (Athlon XP 1400+ instead of local K6-2/350). The result was it took 10 times longer. > and hence you can quite trivially > pre-compile them into native code. Native in ROM wipes out the entire advantage of JVM. Better JIT compile to native while copying ROM into RAM (which needs to be done anyway for speed). > This was proposed in > the mid-late 90s. Of course high-speed Serial I/O would > never take off, right ? :) Serial is taking off, at least as periphery Buses and Processor interconnects, just while we are talking here. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Programmer, Archer, Roleplayer - Make your code truely free: put it into the public domain ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> <6u8z57idaf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:28:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1024763337 24.71.223.147 (Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:28:57 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:28:57 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110390 On 22 Jun 2002 16:44:08 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >The Open- devices in Suns and Macs use an byte coded OpenFirmWare >Forth VM in their ROMs. And that stuff is being ported to the PC. Plus Adobe PostScript is a Forth VM in some printer ROMs. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net> <3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> <6u8z57idaf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 57 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090006 (Oort Gnus v0.06) Emacs/21.2 (i386-msvc-nt5.0.2195) Cancel-Lock: sha1:ngx+GTKESeSOZJbSniAlKZhPo1A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:46:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.107.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1024771561 165.247.107.14 (Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:46:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:46:01 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110402 Neil Franklin writes: > That is already happening. > > - SCSI is going serial (sort of merging with Fibre Channel) > - IDE is going serial (SATA) > - Some high end servers already use serial interprocessor comms, like > the SGI Origin machines > - Intels newer northbridge/southbridge chips communicate serially > - AMDs Hammer/Opteron Processor has no northbrigge, but drives memory > direct and speaks to the rest of the world (other processors or > southbridge) via 8 serial links. > > - and of course over 10 years ago Transputer links :-) > [me looks over to drawer with Tek-4/8 clone of IMS-B004 board in it] SCSI had previously gone serial over 10 years ago as SSA ... and the proposal on the table was to have SSA merge with FCS at that time ... supporting lower/fraction speed copper serial in a compatible manner. The other contender at the time (again over 10 years ago) was SCI ... which in additional to serial for memory acces ... also had mapping for SCSI (SCI was used for memory in at least convex examplar, the DG machine, and the sequent machine). there were also mappings for serial HiPPI. random SSA & SCI refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#16 Dual-ported disks? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#17 Dual-ported disks? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 SSA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#8 Why Do Mainframes Exist ??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#15 tcp/ip http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#25 SGI O2 and Origin system announcements http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#26 System/360 Model 30 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#56 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#31 OT? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#18 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#46 Small IBM shops http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#63 Are the L1 and L2 caches flushed on a page fault ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#39 John Mashey's greatest hits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#42 John Mashey's greatest hits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#85 what makes a cpu fast http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IP http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#11 Climate, US, Japan & supers query http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#12 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#22 ESCON Channel Limits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#28 OS Workloads : Interactive etc http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#10 "Soul of a New Machine" Computer? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#33 ESCON Distance Limitations - Why ? -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> <6u8z57idaf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-203-104.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: venus.btinternet.com 1024770892 21800 213.122.203.104 (22 Jun 2002 18:34:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:34:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!kibo.news.demon.net!demon!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110407 "Neil Franklin" wrote in message news:6u8z57idaf.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > "Rupert Pigott" writes: [SNIP] > > with JVM binaries on ROMS on the devices. > > The Open- devices in Suns and Macs use an byte coded > Forth VM in their ROMs. And that stuff is being ported to the PC. Actually I should clarify here : By JVM binary I meant the output of a Java compiler - the bytecode which would be interpreted by a JVM. I get the feeling that the idea was inspired by OpenFirmware. [SNIP] > And no GUIs. That is what is really slow in Java. That awfull Swing > GUI stuff. > > Ever tried running an Swing program over an 256k line? I only wanted > to use the 10 times faster processor at the other end (Athlon XP 1400+ > instead of local K6-2/350). The result was it took 10 times longer. Oh god don't get me started... We had an app which used X-Windows which the vendor decided to change to Java... The host AND the clients needed to be 4x faster and have 8x more RAM just to run half the number of clients. Really unimpressed... Piss poor design from someone. :( > > and hence you can quite trivially > > pre-compile them into native code. > > Native in ROM wipes out the entire advantage of JVM. Better JIT > compile to native while copying ROM into RAM (which needs to be > done anyway for speed). I was thinking JIT... But I think you'd have to compile at boot time and keep the native code cached... Device drivers can be funny about timing and missed interupts. :) > > This was proposed in > > the mid-late 90s. Of course high-speed Serial I/O would > > never take off, right ? :) > > Serial is taking off, at least as periphery Buses and Processor > interconnects, just while we are talking here. I was taking the piss. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3D154488.5D9F@earthlink.net> From: Lee Hart Reply-To: leeahart@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 51 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 02:08:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.21.83.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1024798103 63.21.83.168 (Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:08:23 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:08:23 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!isdnet!proxad.net!proxad.net!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110416 Tim Shoppa wrote: > I see what you're talking about - indeed, it is already happening > on the CPU side with the Transmeta Crusoe - but I disagree that > emulation will reduce overall costs. Let's consider the extreme. A Turing machine is the simplest possible hardware. It's a 1-bit computer, and all its memory and I/O is serial. Yet, it is capable of executing any possible computer program. It can run any program your brand new 1 GHz Pentium III can run. And, the Turing machine will have vastly less hardware; probably less than 1% as many transistors as the Pentium III. Fewer parts means lower power consumption, higher reliability, and lower cost. But, the practical limitation is speed. By doing everything serially, one bit at a time, a Turing machine can be so slow that you get tired of waiting for answers. That's why you don't see them much in real life. However, today's submicron geometries allow us to build VERY fast hardware -- fast enough so a Turing machine can do real work. Thus, we could use them to build calculators, printers, keyboards, and other low-end computing devices. (We choose not to, because we already have other microcomputers -- typically 8-bit micros -- doing these jobs. Going from a $1.00 8-bit micro to a $0.50 Turing machine isn't enough of a cost savings to bother with). The same sort of thing works for PCs. We could build them with narrower word sizes, but extremely fast. By using large numbers of smaller processors in parallel, you could have as much or more raw computing speed than we have today. And if all the chips are the same, there are greater economies of scale, so prices can come down. > IMHO, nearly all the costs of a PC today are related to support > of an already very fragile "deck of cards". We have emulated > peripherals up the wazoo... Adding an emulation layer in the *right* > way can actually help the support issues. But so far the market has > almost always done it the *wrong* way, as a quick hack to make a > stupid interface look like some previous stupid interface. Exactly! Buggy software emulation is a terrible solution. But software can be fixed and upgraded far easier than hardware. At present, it seems that PC hardware designers spend more time debugging the hardware than PC software engineers do in debugging programs (though both are inclined to leave gaping holes in their mad rush to get to market). -- Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:19:02 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 63 Message-ID: References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> <3D154488.5D9F@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-201-25.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1024816742 80 213.122.201.25 (23 Jun 2002 07:19:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:19:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110451 "Lee Hart" wrote in message news:3D154488.5D9F@earthlink.net... > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I see what you're talking about - indeed, it is already happening > > on the CPU side with the Transmeta Crusoe - but I disagree that > > emulation will reduce overall costs. My personal take on the Crusoe is that it's a neat idea but it flys in the face of previous conventional wisdom that VLIW doesn't buy you lower power consumption. For some reason VLIW machines don't seem to catch on, and not just Crusoe, but Multiflow, Cydrome, and Merced. AFAICT, the IA-64 is only really surviving due to the sheer amount of money being thrown at it. [SNIP] > The same sort of thing works for PCs. We could build them with narrower > word sizes, but extremely fast. By using large numbers of smaller > processors in parallel, you could have as much or more raw computing Eeek ! You mean... MPP ! Most people will whine that it's too hard. At best most will insist on writing code for a flat shared address space regardless of the hard realities. > speed than we have today. And if all the chips are the same, there are > greater economies of scale, so prices can come down. Eeeek, 386SX's ! I think this really comes down to the software base more than the hardware. The fact we *still* can't move software from one system to another trivially kills off most such ideas. Even if you do move it without any trouble, most users will want you to "validate" it again. I'm very pretty disappointed that 14 years on from when I first picked up a C compiler that the industry at large is *still* using tools which present portability nightmares. > > IMHO, nearly all the costs of a PC today are related to support > > of an already very fragile "deck of cards". We have emulated > > peripherals up the wazoo... Adding an emulation layer in the *right* > > way can actually help the support issues. But so far the market has > > almost always done it the *wrong* way, as a quick hack to make a > > stupid interface look like some previous stupid interface. > > Exactly! Buggy software emulation is a terrible solution. But software > can be fixed and upgraded far easier than hardware. At present, it seems > that PC hardware designers spend more time debugging the hardware than > PC software engineers do in debugging programs (though both are inclined > to leave gaping holes in their mad rush to get to market). That's where the users need educating. I *never* buy bleeding edge hardware, the earliest I buy hardware is after it's been on the open market for at least 6 months. That seems like basic common sense to me. ;) Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3D1542AB.15204D15@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 03:38:19 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> <3D154488.5D9F@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: 1024817899 8950 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!snoopy.risq.qc.ca!msc1.onvoy!ply1.onvoy!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0902.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110441 Lee Hart wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > IMHO, nearly all the costs of a PC today are related to support > > of an already very fragile "deck of cards". We have emulated > > peripherals up the wazoo... Adding an emulation layer in the *right* > > way can actually help the support issues. But so far the market has > > almost always done it the *wrong* way, as a quick hack to make a > > stupid interface look like some previous stupid interface. > > Exactly! Buggy software emulation is a terrible solution. But software > can be fixed and upgraded far easier than hardware. Ack! I completely disagree, and I think the last twenty years of history shows my viewpoint to be more valid. Consider: the original IBM PC represented maybe a few man-weeks of hardware engineering, in terms of selecting some chips and soldering them together in a particular way in what has become the PC-clone hardware architecture. But we have literally millions of man-years invested in software that runs *only* on a PC-clone's hardware. We've since improved (without completely abandoning backwards compatibility) the original hardware many times, but all PC-clone software is still dependent on those same original PC-clone hardware flaws. I think time has proven that software is far, far harder to change. > At present, it seems > that PC hardware designers spend more time debugging the hardware than > PC software engineers do in debugging programs On what planet? And do not forget the collective millions of man-months that PC-clone USERS still spend tweaking DLL's and executing the three R's of futility (retry, reboot, reinstall) associated with today's software. Tim. ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: <84rbhu4sb8oirhqeinot5t465dpli1i57f@4ax.com> References: <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> <3D154488.5D9F@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:55:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news2.calgary.shaw.ca 1024847705 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:55:05 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:55:05 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news2.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110460 [NGs trimmed] On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 07:19:02 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >I think this really comes down to the software base >more than the hardware. The fact we *still* can't move >software from one system to another trivially kills off >most such ideas. Well written software you can, others you can't. >Even if you do move it without any >trouble, most users will want you to "validate" it >again. COTS users? I think not! Just port it, regeression test it, and sell it. Large organizations will possibly say they want validation, but if you validate it and add that cost to the price, they won't buy it at that price, or will have bought something else in the interim. What people say, want, and do are at least two different things, as we all know in this business. >I'm very pretty disappointed that 14 years on >from when I first picked up a C compiler that the >industry at large is *still* using tools which present ... techniques and weenies who create ... >portability nightmares. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 24.67.16.79 From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.marketplace.collectables,comp.sys.ibm.pc.classic,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to 1993 Organization: Systematic Software Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca Message-ID: References: <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <3D060D59.66E8D71F@earthlink.net> <3D06D7C3.4E7C@earthlink.net><3D0F8B2D.CBBF10E2@rcn.com> <3D100399.2030400@prodigy.net> <6ubsa7kyiu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3D11331B.6010008@prodigy.net> <3D12BD08.69B7@earthlink.net> <3D139F84.519A90D2@trailing-edge.com> <3D154488.5D9F@earthlink.net> <3D1542AB.15204D15@trailing-edge.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 54 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:02:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.71.223.147 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: news3.calgary.shaw.ca 1024848150 24.71.223.147 (Sun, 23 Jun 2002 10:02:30 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 10:02:30 MDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!news3.calgary.shaw.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110463 On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 03:38:19 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Lee Hart wrote: >> >> Tim Shoppa wrote: >> > IMHO, nearly all the costs of a PC today are related to support >> > of an already very fragile "deck of cards". We have emulated >> > peripherals up the wazoo... Adding an emulation layer in the *right* >> > way can actually help the support issues. But so far the market has >> > almost always done it the *wrong* way, as a quick hack to make a >> > stupid interface look like some previous stupid interface. >> >> Exactly! Buggy software emulation is a terrible solution. But software >> can be fixed and upgraded far easier than hardware. > >Ack! I completely disagree, and I think the last twenty years >of history shows my viewpoint to be more valid. Consider: the >original IBM PC represented maybe a few man-weeks of hardware >engineering, in terms of selecting some chips and soldering them >together in a particular way in what has become the PC-clone hardware >architecture. But we have literally millions of man-years invested >in software that runs *only* on a PC-clone's hardware. We've >since improved (without completely abandoning backwards >compatibility) the original hardware >many times, but all PC-clone software is still dependent on those >same original PC-clone hardware flaws. I think time has proven that >software is far, far harder to change. > >> At present, it seems >> that PC hardware designers spend more time debugging the hardware than >> PC software engineers do in debugging programs > >On what planet? And do not forget the collective millions of >man-months that PC-clone USERS still spend tweaking DLL's and >executing the three R's of futility (retry, reboot, reinstall) >associated with today's software. Users just stop using that software, and download something else that works. Most users do not reinstall, because they don't know enough to do so, or upgrade, because they see no value in the change. Of course, half/two thirds of the population don't have that problem, because they have no use for computers, even as games machines or internet appliances. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: "Eric S. Harris" Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:34:16 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3D172DE8.9246B395@mindspring.com> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> Reply-To: eric_harris_76@yahoo.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.b7.27.95 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 24 Jun 2002 14:34:57 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!eusc.inter.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!208.49.253.98!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110497 Did the original poster ever get an answer to the question about the Byte Magazines? I ask because I have a similar question about a bunch of old science fiction magazines (Analog) from the late '70s. About 5 to 8 years' worth. -Eric S. P.S. For some reason, my ISP doesn't carry alt.collecting.magazines, so a reply there won't get to me w/o extra effort on my part. If you would, please e-mail me directly: eric_harris_76 at either yahoo.com or mindspring.com. -ESH ###### From: Larry__Weiss Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:39:37 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5195FBA1EFB561D6.E579A90CCE48642A.61921F358E3396FD@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <3D172F29.B1DD0B56@airmail.net> References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> <3D172DE8.9246B395@mindspring.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Mon Jun 24 09:40:16 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !b#sl1k-V\8g4Hb,?O.1 (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110484 "Eric S. Harris" wrote: > Did the original poster ever get an answer to the question about the Byte > Magazines? > I ask because I have a similar question about a bunch of old science fiction > magazines (Analog) from the late '70s. About 5 to 8 years' worth. -Eric S. > > P.S. For some reason, my ISP doesn't carry alt.collecting.magazines, so a reply > there won't get to me w/o extra effort on my part. If you would, please e-mail > me directly: eric_harris_76 at either yahoo.com or mindspring.com. -ESH > Visiting http://www.ebay.com/ is a way to find out the value of older articles. Indirectly by just monitoring similar sales, or directly by selling the articles. - LarryW ###### Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> <3D172DE8.9246B395@mindspring.com> Reply-To: mschaef_ng@mschaef.com Organization: mschaef.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) From: mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Originator: mschaef@eris.io.com (MSCHAEF.COM) Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:49:19 CDT X-Trace: sv3-K0VrZ+sMg4jV+wXdqmW6lQpUk9eSGz8gsPrM0/qoqRGi5t0Qv6H669jbaMTWRUCfylLR1Bn9VVLgPgZ!2UpjVC99hEijfWdPIoeLcjWNiLcEBN6pW5Q3G0YGdfBaFA1p9TmEzJnndotTRIDtwIN6AJvFEUSf!mmW465PZAGUEkiSN2K10XfQbYw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:49:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!eusc.inter.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110477 In article <3D172DE8.9246B395@mindspring.com>, Eric S. Harris wrote: >Did the original poster ever get an answer to the question about the Byte >Magazines? > >I ask because I have a similar question about a bunch of old science fiction >magazines (Analog) from the late '70s. About 5 to 8 years' worth. -Eric S. > >P.S. For some reason, my ISP doesn't carry alt.collecting.magazines, so a reply >there won't get to me w/o extra effort on my part. If you would, please e-mail >me directly: eric_harris_76 at either yahoo.com or mindspring.com. -ESH FWIW, I'm interested too. I have Byte magazines dating from November 1986 to about 10 years later that I haven't thrown out. Now that it's coming time to move, it's either pay the moving fee or into the trash they go. I'd like a third option. mschaef_ng@mschaef.com -Mike -- http://www.mschaef.com ###### Message-ID: <3D179B87.2568B19E@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.collecting.magazines,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Q: Is there any interest for vintage Byte Magazines from 1983 to References: <4da98104.0206060816.7a07cb56@posting.google.com> <6447bcd3.0206071825.32208fa7@posting.google.com> <3D04A4BB.D702195B@earthlink.net> <3D04EB61.43BA@earthlink.net> <6447bcd3.0206101752.30877b34@posting.google.com> <3D058E98.61EE@earthlink.net> <3D06E2F0.FFF40FE0@ev1.net> <6447bcd3.0206120626.32f3a142@posting.google.com> <3D079C01.AF559D2B@yahoo.com> <3D172DE8.9246B395@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:36:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.175.127 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1024958196 12.90.175.127 (Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:36:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:36:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:110534 "Eric S. Harris" wrote: > > Did the original poster ever get an answer to the question about the Byte > Magazines? > > I ask because I have a similar question about a bunch of old science fiction > magazines (Analog) from the late '70s. About 5 to 8 years' worth. -Eric S. > > P.S. For some reason, my ISP doesn't carry alt.collecting.magazines, so a reply > there won't get to me w/o extra effort on my part. If you would, please e-mail > me directly: eric_harris_76 at either yahoo.com or mindspring.com. -ESH Mine are in the 50s and 60s. Mainly Analog/Astounding and F&SF. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. USE worldnet address!