From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: What goes into a 3090? Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:42:59 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1016110801 nnrp-13:10265 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103850 No, not a trick question! I was thinking back to when I was given a tour of the main computer room at a place I used to work, and two large lumps at the side of the room were identified to me as a pair of 3090 systems. Both were pretty much the same, large slabs with alternating blue metal panels and grey ribbed plastic ones, IIRC. I don't want to guess at the dimensions as my memory's not that good; just that they were a fair bit taller than me and an awful lot fatter! One of them had an additional lump sticking out about 1/3rd the way down the side, similar to the ends of both monoliths, a fairly plain, blue rectangular thing. I assume that this, and the ends of the other two machines, were probably the CPUs, making one of them a dual and the other a 3-processor system. So what goes into the bit in the middle? If I'm right with my guess, that bit would be around 3 times the size of the CPU cabinet, so I'm assuming it'd be the main memory and channel controllers? Actually, if anyone has a diagram of the innards of a 3090 that'd probably satisfy my curiousity for a while! One final thing which struck me as a bit strange is that neither unit seemed to have the traditional front panel with interesting lights; they just had a couple of rather uninteresting looking buttons to power the things on and off. Had the S/370s done away with front panels by that time, or did it just live elsewhere (ops room, for example?) Chris. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 70 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:34:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.7.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1016120087 209.245.7.160 (Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:34:47 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:34:47 PST X-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:34:45 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103861 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > One final thing which struck me as a bit strange is that > neither unit seemed to have the traditional front panel with > interesting lights; they just had a couple of rather > uninteresting looking buttons to power the things on and off. > Had the S/370s done away with front panels by that time, or > did it just live elsewhere (ops room, for example?) two things that went into a 3090 ... were a pair of 4361s (small 370s, from line 135, 138, 4331, 4361) running vm/370 release 6. IBM service had a policy that they could bootstrap diagnose machine in the field starting with a scope. Starting with 3081 it was no longer possible to scope ... so there was a "service processor" that had all sorts of probes into the machine for diagnosing ... and the service processor could be scoped. The service processor on 3081 was a uc.5 microprocessor (also used in 37xx, 8100, and some number of other products). The service processor on the 3090 was redundant 4361s. All the service menus were written in IOS3270. random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#3 What is an IBM 137/148 ??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#41 IBM 4361 CPU technology http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#34 ... cics ... from posting from another list http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7 IBM S/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#36 why is there an "@" key? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#61 Living legends http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#62 Living legends http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#108 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#112 OS/360 names and error codes (was: Humorous and/or Interesting Opcodes) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#123 Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#181 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#90 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#37 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#38 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#50 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#65 oddly portable machines http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#5 TF-1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#61 TF-1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#76 Is a VAX a mainframe? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#54 FBA History Question (was: RE: What's the meaning of track overfl ow?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#62 California DMV http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#28 So long, comp.arch http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#56 Why SMP at all anymore? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#83 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#2 Alpha: an invitation to communicate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#44 Wired News :The Grid: The Next-Gen Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#13 Parity - why even or odd (was Re: Load Locked (was: IA64 running out of steam)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#20 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#4 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#7 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#73 Expanded Storage? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#14 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#17 3270 protocol http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#58 Certificate Authentication Issues in IE and Verisign http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#79 a.f.c history checkup... (was What specifications will the standard year 2001 PC have?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#11 The demise of compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#3 Microcode? (& index searching) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#32 First DESKTOP Unix Box? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#44 PDP-10 Archive migration plan http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#7 IBM Mainframe at home http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#8 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#10 IBM Mainframe at home -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:45:05 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c911a08$8$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.30a/30 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103881 In , on 03/14/02 at 12:42 PM, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) said: >One final thing which struck me as a bit strange is that >neither unit seemed to have the traditional front panel with interesting >lights; they just had a couple of rather >uninteresting looking buttons to power the things on and off. Had the >S/370s done away with front panels by that time, or did it just live >elsewhere (ops room, for example?) Front panels had gone into history, replaced by standard 327x display terminals. -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- "I wish to God these calculations had been executed by steam!" - C. Babbage ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE From: eugene@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) NNTP-Posting-Host: sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Message-ID: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> Date: 15 Mar 2002 00:21:51 -0800 X-Trace: 15 Mar 2002 00:21:51 -0800, sundance.cse.ucsc.edu Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.ucsc.edu!eugene Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103839 What goes in? Water and power for the TCMs. In article , Chris Hedley wrote: >No, not a trick question! I was thinking back to when I was >given a tour of the main computer room at a place I used to >work, and two large lumps at the side of the room were >identified to me as a pair of 3090 systems. Both were pretty >much the same, large slabs with alternating blue metal panels >and grey ribbed plastic ones, IIRC. I don't want to guess at >the dimensions as my memory's not that good; just that they >were a fair bit taller than me and an awful lot fatter! One >of them had an additional lump sticking out about 1/3rd the >way down the side, similar to the ends of both monoliths, a >fairly plain, blue rectangular thing. I assume that this, >and the ends of the other two machines, were probably the >CPUs, making one of them a dual and the other a 3-processor >system. > >So what goes into the bit in the middle? If I'm right with >my guess, that bit would be around 3 times the size of the >CPU cabinet, so I'm assuming it'd be the main memory and >channel controllers? Actually, if anyone has a diagram of >the innards of a 3090 that'd probably satisfy my curiousity >for a while! Find a thermal conducting module (or a super integration module on a Fujitsu) and you will have a rough idea. >One final thing which struck me as a bit strange is that >neither unit seemed to have the traditional front panel with >interesting lights; they just had a couple of rather >uninteresting looking buttons to power the things on and off. >Had the S/370s done away with front panels by that time, or >did it just live elsewhere (ops room, for example?) Cheap PCs and workstations as consoles tend to be far more powerful (have tools to help interpret system state) than lights on a front panel. The problem is even greater on higher order multiprocessors. I signed an NDA to see the first 3090 that I ever used, and that wasn't at IBM. ###### From: "Russell P. Holsclaw" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Lines: 26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 16:22:15 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.183.117.237 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1016235016 216.183.117.237 (Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:30:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:30:16 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed.news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103924 > > >One final thing which struck me as a bit strange is that > >neither unit seemed to have the traditional front panel with > >interesting lights; they just had a couple of rather > >uninteresting looking buttons to power the things on and off. > >Had the S/370s done away with front panels by that time, or > >did it just live elsewhere (ops room, for example?) > > Cheap PCs and workstations as consoles tend to be far more powerful > (have tools to help interpret system state) than lights on a front panel. > The problem is even greater on higher order multiprocessors. That service processor in the 3090 complex (actually a 4300-series system running VM!) did more than just "interpret the lights". It could analyze malfunctions of the 3090 CPU and diagnoses root causes. And, it could automatically dial up a remote IBM service system (RETAIN), and transmit this information to that system, all without customer intervention. This often resulted in dispatching a CE (via a hand-held computer that looked like a brick), and ordering the replacement part to fix the malfunction. Often the CE would arrive at the customer's office to fix the machine when the customer didn't know a call had been placed, or even that there was a problem. Often the OS could bypass the problem, such as staying out of malfunctioning RAM, etc. -- Russ ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:04:07 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <72r77a.u02.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1016557700 nnrp-13:15940 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104044 According to Anne & Lynn Wheeler : > two things that went into a 3090 ... were a pair of 4361s (small 370s, > from line 135, 138, 4331, 4361) running vm/370 release 6. Blimey, they didn't do things by halves, did they? (Accidental pun noted) > IBM service had a policy that they could bootstrap diagnose machine in > the field starting with a scope. Starting with 3081 it was no longer > possible to scope ... so there was a "service processor" that had all > sorts of probes into the machine for diagnosing ... and the service > processor could be scoped. The service processor on 3081 was a uc.5 > microprocessor (also used in 37xx, 8100, and some number of other > products). The service processor on the 3090 was redundant 4361s. All > the service menus were written in IOS3270. I guess that these 4361s were fairly small units? The 3090 was big, but it didn't seem quite big enough physically to contain a pair of mini- equivalents as well as, I assume, the main memory, channel adaptors, power supply, intercooler and God knows what else went in there! I also assume that the two service processors didn't double up as FEPs? Chris. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:04:37 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <53r77a.u02.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3c911a08$8$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1016557700 nnrp-13:15940 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104043 According to Julian Thomas : > Front panels had gone into history, replaced by standard 327x display > terminals. Shame, really, I liked the look of the front panels, but that's progress I suppose. :( Chris. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:08:02 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1016557701 nnrp-13:15940 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104050 According to Eugene Miya : > What goes in? > Water and power for the TCMs. I remember seeing an ICL mainframe being installed once; it seemed that most of the time-consuming work was done by a plumber. > Find a thermal conducting module (or a super integration module on a > Fujitsu) and you will have a rough idea. I've seen a few pictures (not as detailed as I'd have liked) of some varieties of S/360s and early 370s, which seemed to have banks (of 9?) TCMs plumbed together. It took me quite a while to figure out what they were... > Cheap PCs and workstations as consoles tend to be far more powerful > (have tools to help interpret system state) than lights on a front panel. > The problem is even greater on higher order multiprocessors. I guess that's true. It just seems a shame that the "interesting lights" had to be consigned to history! > I signed an NDA to see the first 3090 that I ever used, and that wasn't > at IBM. I'm surprised, although I suspect I shouldn't be. Chris. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: <72r77a.u02.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:20:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.9.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1016558428 209.245.9.237 (Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:20:28 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:20:28 PST X-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:20:23 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104059 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > I guess that these 4361s were fairly small units? The 3090 was big, but > it didn't seem quite big enough physically to contain a pair of mini- > equivalents as well as, I assume, the main memory, channel adaptors, > power supply, intercooler and God knows what else went in there! > > I also assume that the two service processors didn't double up as FEPs? about the size of small desk or file cabinet ... air-cooled. big things could have been any interface for bus&tag cables ... but packaging for 3090 service processor wouldn't have needed that. hardware & software was modified to have lots of probes all over the 3090 for fault detection, diagnostics, etc. boxes were dedicated to service processor function. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:48:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.9.237 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1016560099 209.245.9.237 (Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:48:19 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:48:19 PST X-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:48:14 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104055 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > I've seen a few pictures (not as detailed as I'd have liked) of some > varieties of S/360s and early 370s, which seemed to have banks (of 9?) > TCMs plumbed together. It took me quite a while to figure out what > they were... TCMs were 3090 ... they weren't in 360s or 370s. http://www-mae.engr.ucf.edu/~jtt/heat_transfer.htm http://ref.cern.ch/CERN/CNL/2001/003/comp30/ http://www.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/historical/0 sorry, couldn't find a picture. for some 360 & 370 pictures http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/events/anniversaries/40th/webbook/photos/index.html -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Daniel House" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:44:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.88.253.49 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.southeast.rr.com 1016563447 24.88.253.49 (Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:44:07 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:44:07 EST Organization: Road Runner - NC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!typhoon.southeast.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104078 "Anne & Lynn Wheeler" wrote in message news:u663sa1t4.fsf@earthlink.net... > > cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > > I've seen a few pictures (not as detailed as I'd have liked) of some > > varieties of S/360s and early 370s, which seemed to have banks (of 9?) > > TCMs plumbed together. It took me quite a while to figure out what > > they were... > > TCMs were 3090 ... they weren't in 360s or 370s. > http://www-mae.engr.ucf.edu/~jtt/heat_transfer.htm > http://ref.cern.ch/CERN/CNL/2001/003/comp30/ > http://www.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/historical/0 > > sorry, couldn't find a picture. > > for some 360 & 370 pictures > http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/events/anniversaries/40th/webbook/photos/index.html > There are some TCM pictures at the following URL. Unfortunately no clark board pics (the thing that 9(?) of these TCMs plug into as a sub-frame). http://home.nc.rr.com/deh/GALLERY/TCMS.HTM Even the neatest stuff becomes scrap at some point between commercially useful and antique. Regards, Dan House ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:01:59 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <7v187a.qp2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1016565369 nnrp-12:5053 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104083 According to Anne & Lynn Wheeler : > TCMs were 3090 ... they weren't in 360s or 370s. > > sorry, couldn't find a picture. Right you are... feeling like a right bloody idiot, I've just realised that I have a few pictures squirreled away somewhere which shows the TCMs, assorted plumbing and numerous other things I can't identify in glorious colour. I would put them on my web-page, but I'm a bit reluctant as I can't remember where I found them and don't like putting things up without credits (any opinions from anyone about this?) > for some 360 & 370 pictures > http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/events/anniversaries/40th/webbook/photos/index.html Interesting set of pictures there. NCL, eh? I didn't realise that there were versions of VM and MVS which spoke Geordie. :) Chris. ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Message-ID: References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:45:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.217.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1016588706 66.108.217.161 (Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:45:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:45:06 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104139 On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:48:19 GMT, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > >cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: >> I've seen a few pictures (not as detailed as I'd have liked) of some >> varieties of S/360s and early 370s, which seemed to have banks (of 9?) >> TCMs plumbed together. It took me quite a while to figure out what >> they were... > >TCMs were 3090 ... they weren't in 360s or 370s. >http://www-mae.engr.ucf.edu/~jtt/heat_transfer.htm >http://ref.cern.ch/CERN/CNL/2001/003/comp30/ >http://www.cctec.com/maillists/nanog/historical/0 > >sorry, couldn't find a picture. > >for some 360 & 370 pictures >http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/events/anniversaries/40th/webbook/photos/index.html The only image of any assembled TCMs/MCMs I've ever found on the net is at: http://www-zorn.ira.uka.de/fridrich/cMuseum/Museum.html Look like some interesting stuff but I have NO idea why he's wearing that hat. If it's collected front panel pictures you want you'll find more of them than you can shake a stick at at: http://www.punch-card.co.uk/ I have a TCM in my office, I'll take some decent pics and put them up - can't believe the engineering that went into these things, and they're hardly to be found on the web at all... What was the IBM-speak for the 'motherboard' backplane/ally frame which the individual TCMs plugged into? Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:55:10 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c97ec1b$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.30a/30 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104126 In , on 03/19/02 at 05:48 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler said: >TCMs were 3090 ... they weren't in 360s or 370s. TCM first appeared in the 308x family before 3090. -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- Windows: an Unrecoverable Acquisition Error! ##### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 108 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:22:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.16.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1016742175 65.59.16.5 (Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:22:55 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:22:55 PST X-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:22:54 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104214 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > No, not a trick question! I was thinking back to when I was > given a tour of the main computer room at a place I used to > work, and two large lumps at the side of the room were > identified to me as a pair of 3090 systems. Both were pretty > much the same, large slabs with alternating blue metal panels > and grey ribbed plastic ones, IIRC. I don't want to guess at a couple other things that went into 3090 (that have been subject of some threads here & comp.arch) were vector facility and extended store. extended store was a cross between memory and electronic disk. It was getting around the 31bit (2gigabyte) addressing limit on 3090 (i.e. couldn't address more than 2gigabytes of real storage). There was also a case made that the bus for extended store could be made wider with longer latency (i.e. memory positioned longer distance from the cpu) than standard memory). the advantage over real electronic disk was that it had a syncronous page move instruction that was on the order of tens of processor cycles ... orders of magnitude less than the pathlength to perform a disk I/O operation. The extended store bus was also where they attached HiPPI connection (because the regular I/O iterface couldn't handle the HiPPI data rate). The HiPPI programming model then looked somewhat more like some of the PC operations than mainframe I/O channel programming. Basically there were reserved extended store addresses where data was stuff that controlled HiPPI i/o operations. The extended store syncronous page move instructions were used to move the control information to those reserved addresses for controlling HiPPI i/o. another 3090 feature was vector facility. not so much 3090 but in that era was ESCON. ESCON had been floating around the company since the '70s but was having hard time getting out. Engineers in the 6000 group took the escon specs and effectively tweacked them ... getting about 10 percent higher thruput, full-duplex operation and using much cheaper optical components (rather than much higher priced escon driver/receivers ... basically stuff adapted from the cdrom industry) and it was called SLA (serial link adapter). There was then a several month period deciding whether to work on driving SLA to gigabit or merge the work into fiber-channel standards work. Eventually the decision was made to follow the fiber-channel standard path and the engineer largely responsible for SLA eventually became the editor/owner of the standards document (in the fiberchannel standards group). There was some amount of heat generated in the fiber-channel standards group (from some of the escon & other forces) trying to (force?) fit the (mainframe) half-duplex device i/o paradigm on top of the fiber-channel dual simplex (full duplex simulation with dedicated channels for transmission in each direction) protocol. some random extended store & vf refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#15 multilevel store http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#61 TF-1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#53 TSS/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#53 VAX, M68K complex instructions (was Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#26 Crazy idea: has it been done? random sla, fcs, ficon, escon refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#16 Dual-ported disks? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#17 Dual-ported disks? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 SSA http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#5 360 "channels" and "multiplexers"? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#15 tcp/ip http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#26 System/360 Model 30 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#5 360/44 (was Re: IBM 1130 (was Re: IBM 7090--used for business or http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#30 Drive letters http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#40 Comparison Cluster vs SMP? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#49 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional life http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#54 Fault Tolerance http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#125 Q: S/390 on PowerPC? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#190 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#22 Cache coherence [was Re: TF-1] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#56 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#68 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000d.html#14 FW: RS6000 vs IBM Mainframe http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#31 OT? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#50 Egghead cracked, MS IIS again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#12 Small IBM shops http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#18 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#46 Small IBM shops http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#63 Are the L1 and L2 caches flushed on a page fault ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#42 John Mashey's greatest hits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#69 Wheeler and Wheeler http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#22 High Level Language Systems was Re: computer books/authors (Re: FA: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#5 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#22 ESCON Channel Limits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#14 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#56 Contiguous file system http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#10 index searching http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#28 Buffer overflow http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#28 OS Workloads : Interactive etc http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#7 IBM Mainframe at home http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#5 What goes into a 3090? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#7 Bus & Tag, possible length/distance? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#26 Crazy idea: has it been done? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#31 Hardest Mistake in Comp Arch to Fix -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Message-ID: <3C9A6C83.43352445@optushome.com.au> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:28:03 +1100 From: Rob Storey Organization: @Home X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en-gb]C-AtHomeI0407 (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB,en,en-* MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 6 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.49.190.142 X-Trace: 1016753316 6216 210.49.190.142 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news1.optus.net.au!optus!spool01.syd.optusnet.com.au!spool.optusnet.com.au!210.49.20.93.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104254 This is an air cooled TCM that I have, from an ES/9000 series machine. The insides seem the same. http://members.optushome.com.au/intaretro/Packages.htm Rob Storey ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:31:41 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1017010803 nnrp-12:16512 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 81 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104518 According to Anne & Lynn Wheeler : > a couple other things that went into 3090 (that have been subject of > some threads here & comp.arch) were vector facility and extended > store. I didn't know about the vector thing; for some reason I thought it was some sort of attached processor, so would probably live in the CPU cabinet it was associated with. I'm probably getting it mixed up the the VAX variety, I guess! > extended store was a cross between memory and electronic disk. It was > getting around the 31bit (2gigabyte) addressing limit on 3090 (i.e. > couldn't address more than 2gigabytes of real storage). There was also > a case made that the bus for extended store could be made wider with > longer latency (i.e. memory positioned longer distance from the cpu) > than standard memory). I remember that our 3090 had some of this extended store, I wondered what differentiated it from main memory. I think it was something like 32MB core and 32MB extended (or it might've even been 16/16, which seems tiny compared to today's extravagance; as a sort of "social comment" irrelevance on the state of computing, I was appalled that I couldn't get Windows 2000 to work with as "little" as 48MB the other day: single user, no applications and it couldn't move the mouse pointer because it seemed to be paging to heavily! But I digress...) Wasn't another attractive thing about extended store that since performance constraints weren't so imposing that it could make use of cheaper (ie slower) memory technology? > the advantage over real electronic disk was that it had a syncronous > page move instruction that was on the order of tens of processor > cycles ... orders of magnitude less than the pathlength to perform a > disk I/O operation. I think this shows that I've been out of the mainframe/mini arena too long... my first thoughts on reading that was "but it's volatile storage! What if the power fails?" > The extended store bus was also where they attached HiPPI connection > (because the regular I/O iterface couldn't handle the HiPPI data > rate). The HiPPI programming model then looked somewhat more like some > of the PC operations than mainframe I/O channel programming. Basically > there were reserved extended store addresses where data was stuff that > controlled HiPPI i/o operations. The extended store syncronous page > move instructions were used to move the control information to those > reserved addresses for controlling HiPPI i/o. I wish I knew a bit more about HiPPI, it sounds quite interesting, or at least the applications of it. I've never directly encountered it, which explains my lack of knowledge; I've heard that it's used to talk to supercomputers, which is probably the more well-known of its uses because of the profile, I suppose. > not so much 3090 but in that era was ESCON. ESCON had been floating > around the company since the '70s but was having hard time getting > out. Engineers in the 6000 group took the escon specs and effectively > tweacked them ... getting about 10 percent higher thruput, full-duplex > operation and using much cheaper optical components (rather than much > higher priced escon driver/receivers ... basically stuff adapted from > the cdrom industry) and it was called SLA (serial link adapter). There > was then a several month period deciding whether to work on driving > SLA to gigabit or merge the work into fiber-channel standards work. > > Eventually the decision was made to follow the fiber-channel standard > path and the engineer largely responsible for SLA eventually became > the editor/owner of the standards document (in the fiberchannel > standards group). There was some amount of heat generated in the > fiber-channel standards group (from some of the escon & other forces) > trying to (force?) fit the (mainframe) half-duplex device i/o paradigm > on top of the fiber-channel dual simplex (full duplex simulation with > dedicated channels for transmission in each direction) protocol. I'm surprised that the newer channel technologies were having a hard time getting accepted; I would've assumed that even by the late '70s the 4.5MB/S (or whatever it was) of the "standard" channel architecture was getting a bit claustraphobic. (I've no idea what "our" mainframe came with, probably a bunch of the old-style copper channels) Chris. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:42:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.245.3.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1017013359 209.245.3.16 (Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:42:39 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:42:39 PST X-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:42:40 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!03b822ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104569 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) writes: > I was appalled that I couldn't get Windows 2000 to work with as > "little" as 48MB the other day: single user, no applications and > it couldn't move the mouse pointer because it seemed to be paging > to heavily! But I digress...) slightly related http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#37 Ancient computer humor - Memory http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#73 Expanded Storage? -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: cruff@qwest.net (Craig Ruff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:12:54 -0000 Organization: No Organization Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test75 (Feb 13, 2001) Originator: cruff@qwest.net (Craig Ruff) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104644 In article , Chris Hedley wrote: >I wish I knew a bit more about HiPPI, it sounds quite interesting, >or at least the applications of it. I've never directly encountered >it, which explains my lack of knowledge; I've heard that it's used >to talk to supercomputers, which is probably the more well-known of >its uses because of the profile, I suppose. At work (NCAR), we use Hippi (both parallel and serial) for the data fabric in our Mass Storage System (MSS). It uses Hippi switches to build a crossbar fabric to move data directly between the storage devices (disk, tape) and the client hosts (various Unix systems). This allows us to drive the devices at full speed most of the time and it scales very well. This arrangement has been used since 1986 (at which time it was Hyperchannel based), and was fully a SAN before the term was invented. Of course this is hardly the first implementation of SAN type stuff in history, but don't tell that to the marketing types who think they have something new. What is more interesting about this arrangement is that the actual control information flowing across the Hippi is 370/390 style channel programs built by the client host system, encapsulated in a Hyperchannel lineage (minimal overhead) protocol, carried in a SNAP header then carried inside Hippi Framing Protocol (Hippi-FP) to a STK Network Systems Group NSG (formerly Network Systems Corp NSC) Remote Device Module Extended RDME unit that converts from Hippi to ESCON or Block Mux (yes, we are still using 3390 disks for a bit longer). The RDME drives the device and returns data and status back via the Hippi to the client host. Multiple data streams can be easily carried across a single 800 Mbit/sec Hippi channel. However, due to the apparent impending disappearance of Hippi as a viable technology, we are working on alternative methods to carry data to/from the MSS. -- Craig Ruff cruff@ruffspot.net ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:16:48 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c9ff66d$8$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.30a/30 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104605 In , on 03/24/02 at 10:31 PM, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) said: >I remember that our 3090 had some of this extended store, I >wondered what differentiated it from main memory. It was a separate address space, with instructions to do block transfers (4k) to/from main memory. -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- To whom the gods destroy, they first teach Windows... ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? Message-ID: <7050au4068mmhusr8llbminetne62tah8s@4ax.com> References: <3c91af1f$1@news.ucsc.edu> <3c97ec1b$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 06:25:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.217.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1017123910 66.108.217.161 (Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:25:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:25:10 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104699 On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:55:10 -0500, jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) wrote: >In , on 03/19/02 > at 05:48 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler said: > >>TCMs were 3090 ... they weren't in 360s or 370s. > >TCM first appeared in the 308x family before 3090. > Well as threatened here are some images of a TCM I have. Not sure precisely which machine it's from, perhaps someone could enlighten: http://www.corestore.org/tcm.htm You can click on the images to obtain the full high-res shot... warning: full high-res means 800K each! Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNLT Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: What goes into a 3090? References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 60 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:56:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.116.178 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1017179805 165.247.116.178 (Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:56:45 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:56:45 PST X-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:56:45 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!03b822ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:104575 cruff@qwest.net (Craig Ruff) writes: > At work (NCAR), we use Hippi (both parallel and serial) for the data fabric > in our Mass Storage System (MSS). It uses Hippi switches to build a crossbar > fabric to move data directly between the storage devices (disk, tape) and > the client hosts (various Unix systems). This allows us to drive the > devices at full speed most of the time and it scales very well. This > arrangement has been used since 1986 (at which time it was Hyperchannel > based), and was fully a SAN before the term was invented. Of course > this is hardly the first implementation of SAN type stuff in history, but > don't tell that to the marketing types who think they have something new. 10-15 years ago, we spent some amount of time with the datatree people, helped fund some of the lincs->unitree activity, and spent quite a bit of time with the mesa archival people. actually have a meeting next week with engineer that did some amount of the a515 and the hippi swtuff (datatree & mesa archival were both ibm mainframe "servers" original with hyperchannel, unitree/lincs original was cray & hyperchannel, another player in ieee mss meetings was done at nasa/ames and was uts, mainframe, hyperchannel). the original a510 remote device adapter (emulated ibm channel, capable of attaching ibm controllers) ... on ibm mainframe, take the complete ccw program and do a little translation and then write the ccw program to the memory of the a510 and then effectively instruct the a510 to emulate a start i/o. all data/memory references went back thru the hyperchannel network to the mainframe memory (as in real ibm channel). However, this wouldn't work with disk "search" ccw operations since there are timing constraints on being able to retrieve the search argument when dealing with ibm ckd (count-key-data) disks. for (at least) ncar, there was an enhanced a510 called the a515 which 1) supported downloading both the CCW programs as well as search arguments to the a515 memory ... overcoming the ckd disk timing constraints 2) ibm mainframe could download the ccw package to the a515 and pass an "id" to a cray or other computer on the hyperchannel network ... and one of these other computers could "activate" the I/O operation. The data transfer then would be done to/from the memory of the "3rd party" computer rather than the ibm mainframe. this allowed the ibm mainframe to perform the SAN management of the disk/tape ... but allow the data to flow directly from disk and the 3rd party client machine (aka the "server" might be a 4341 machine ... and the "client" some supercomputer). One of the things in the IEEE standards meetings for hippi switch and ipi disks was being able to translate the ncar/a515 3rd party transfer architecture from the a515 to hippi/ipi. random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#58 Reliability and SMPs http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#68 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#21 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#22 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#66 commodity storage servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#10 index searching -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com, http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/