From: zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 19 Feb 2002 19:28:49 GMT Organization: Red Hat Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: devserv.devel.redhat.com X-Trace: cronkite.cygnus.com 1014146929 19413 172.16.58.1 (19 Feb 2002 19:28:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 19:28:49 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102217 Hello: I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. I dimly remember either a FAQ or a list where someone described how he got a written off DEC-10, which is a pretty big chunk of metal. But for the life of me, I cannot google that FAQ again. I am looking for information on how big bootable configs are (e.g. if I can stuff it into an equivalent of PDP-11/70, that would be about the largest possible size), which of them are air cooled, availability of low-level documentation, and so on. I understand that it may be advisable to think about P/370, but is just not the same. If I only wanted to have a PS/2 to pretend that it is a mainframe, I would be better off running Hercules on it. -- Pete ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:25:36 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102214 On 19 Feb 2002 19:28:49 GMT, Pete Zaitcev wrote: >Hello: >I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net >about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. >I dimly remember either a FAQ or a list where someone described >how he got a written off DEC-10, which is a pretty big chunk >of metal. But for the life of me, I cannot google that FAQ again. >I am looking for information on how big bootable configs are >(e.g. if I can stuff it into an equivalent of PDP-11/70, >that would be about the largest possible size), which of them are >air cooled, availability of low-level documentation, and so on. Erf. Even if you could get the CPU to fit in that much space, the peripherals would fill your house to overflowing. One guy on the Hercules list reported running a 4381 in his house (that's a machine the size of two refrigerators side-by-side); the CPU and DASD were in the basement, and he cut holes in the floor (!) to run the channel cables to the tape and printer. You might find a small 9221 or 9370 config that would be practical, but then there's the little matter of software to run on it... ###### From: hudson@swcp.com (Tramm Hudson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:28:18 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Rotomotion Corporation Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: inago.swcp.com X-Trace: iruka.swcp.com 1014150498 552 198.59.115.17 (19 Feb 2002 20:28:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@swcp.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:28:18 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!feeder.nmix.net!feeder.swcp.com!news.swcp.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102215 [ Posted and cc'd to cited author ] Pete Zaitcev wrote: > I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net > about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. > I dimly remember either a FAQ or a list where someone described > how he got a written off DEC-10, which is a pretty big chunk > of metal. But for the life of me, I cannot google that FAQ again. Google is a fickle mistress. Sometimes you have to know the magic words: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22old+iron+at+home%22 The first one is good: http://packetstorm.widexs.nl/unix-humor/old.iron.at.home.stories.html I used to run a smaller VAXen (11/730) in my dorm room when I didn't have to pay for power. My "machine room" was the subject of an article in the local paper and, for a brief while, the only remote access terminals on the campus. We had a $0.25/day budget for network access -- we dialed out with an acoustic coupler modem through the pay-phone to the main machine room. And placed a PostIt that read "Please do not hang up. Call in progress" on the telephone, otherwise our budget would have to double. Trammell -- -----|----- hudson@swcp.com H 240-476-1373 *>=====[]L\ Trammell.Hudson@celera.com W 240-453-3317 ' -'-`- http://www.swcp.com/~hudson/ KC5RNF ###### Message-ID: <3C73047A.8CA45061@caloundra.qld.gov.au> From: Bernie Dwyer Organization: Very Little X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:05:46 +1000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.52.54.194 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 1014170728 203.52.54.194 (Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:05:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:05:28 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102271 Pete Zaitcev wrote: > > Hello: > > I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net > about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. -- Dunno about a mainframe, but I recently acquired an operational but surplus-to-requirements AS400 E35 for AUD$10. It's about 1600mm high x 1100mm deep x 480mm wide. It needs (theoretically) a 30amp single-phase supply, but a standard household 10-amp seems to work (240VAC). I'm not going to keep it running, because I didn't acquire the operating system or utilities software licences (non-transferable in those days), and I only wanted it for the cabinet - I'm going to strip out the internals, line it with insulation, install a pre-fab compressor, condenser and evaporator, and use it as a freezer. "I'll just get that frozen roast outta the IBM" ;-) Bernie Dwyer Dump the z to reply to me ***************************** ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 20 Feb 2002 17:18:53 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102301 x-no-archive: yes > I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net > about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. I don't know why anyone would want to run such a machine at home when dial up services are undoubtedly available. There are a number of problems involved with an older IBM mainframe: 1) Power. The older models required special power not normally available in a home. 2) Air conditioning: The older models required considerable cooling. 3) Peripherals. A mainframe CPU by itself is of no value. You would need disk drives, printers, and tape/cart drives, all of which take up room. The newest mainframes may be small enough to fit in a house, but I'm not sure what value they'd be, and you'd still need peripherals and operating system software. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:19:14 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-194-181.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1014232754 3848 213.122.194.181 (20 Feb 2002 19:19:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:19:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102280 lwin wrote in message news:a50lpt$ke9@netaxs.com... > x-no-archive: yes > > > I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net > > about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. > > I don't know why anyone would want to run such a machine at home > when dial up services are undoubtedly available. > > There are a number of problems involved with an older IBM mainframe: > > 1) Power. The older models required special power not normally > available in a home. Dairy Farms offer a solution here... They often have high voltage/current supplies for the milking machinary... :P Semi-serious... Installed the VAX-11/785 in a converted pig-sty next to a milking parlour. :P > 2) Air conditioning: The older models required considerable cooling. Damn right, I was terrified of the air-conditioning aspect... It turns out that the VAX-11/785 was a bit of a lightweight as far as heat generation was concerned. On the other hand the peripherals generated quite a bit of heat. :) > 3) Peripherals. A mainframe CPU by itself is of no value. You > would need disk drives, printers, and tape/cart drives, all of > which take up room. There is where the problem lies. The peripherals seem to be the most vulnerable part of the system. Disk-packs in particular are dicey - the stories I hear of them in production quality environments seems to rule them out for hobby use (unless you have a bucket of spare heads, packs and a clean room). :P Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:53:28 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVatglcROejgBMgmmkzpY8p9vC1LBrTmMPNjyeQF64S1H3DyTsusiSS1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 23:55:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102350 On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:19:14 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >There is where the problem lies. The peripherals seem >to be the most vulnerable part of the system. Disk-packs >in particular are dicey - the stories I hear of them >in production quality environments seems to rule them out >for hobby use (unless you have a bucket of spare heads, >packs and a clean room). :P You can get by with this. I have in the past. Proper care in changing filters, some care in pack handling and storage, covers most of it. The drives that I have are CDC-80's which have very good filters, and Diablo 44a's (old 5+5 drives) which required more work, such as tearing them apart and cleaning every 6 months or so. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### Message-ID: <3C743B5E.B05672A@yahoo.com> From: Peter Flass X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 5 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:13:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.169.7.241 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyroc.rr.com 1014250399 24.169.7.241 (Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:13:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:13:19 EST Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!cyclone-out.nyroc.rr.com!typhoon.nyroc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102351 9370 runs VM/370, no? Jay Maynard wrote: > You might find a small 9221 or 9370 config that would be practical, but then > there's the little matter of software to run on it... ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:57:21 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <3C743B5E.B05672A@yahoo.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102319 (De-top-posted for your reading ease.) On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:13:19 GMT, Peter Flass wrote: >Jay Maynard wrote: >> You might find a small 9221 or 9370 config that would be practical, but then >> there's the little matter of software to run on it... >9370 runs VM/370, no? Yes, it does (well, VM/SP; I don't know if the public domain VM/370 would run on it)...but then, that may not be all the OP wanted. You might be able to run MVS 3.8 on a large 9370 configuration, but I don't know. The 9370 may well have implemented the 4K storage key feature, in which case VM/370 and MVS 3.8 might not run unmodified. (The P/370 and P/390 had this feature, and didn't implement the old storage key manipulation instructions even when the control register bit that enabled them was set properly.) I don't have access to a 9370 to check. The P/370 and P/390 will *not* run unmodified versions of those OSes. I don't know what mods would be needed to make it work; they would be easier to implement on VM/370, since that was distributed with source, than MVS 3.8, which wasn't, at least not completely. ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Message-ID: <8hgb7u0dnfv67om39boqhingee03dj67vc@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:55:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.217.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1014350136 66.108.217.161 (Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:55:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:55:36 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102454 On 19 Feb 2002 19:28:49 GMT, zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) wrote: >Hello: > >I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net >about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. >I dimly remember either a FAQ or a list where someone described >how he got a written off DEC-10, which is a pretty big chunk >of metal. But for the life of me, I cannot google that FAQ again. >I am looking for information on how big bootable configs are >(e.g. if I can stuff it into an equivalent of PDP-11/70, >that would be about the largest possible size), which of them are >air cooled, availability of low-level documentation, and so on. > >I understand that it may be advisable to think about P/370, >but is just not the same. If I only wanted to have a PS/2 >to pretend that it is a mainframe, I would be better off >running Hercules on it. It's do-able. P/390 microchannel cards are *relatively* cheap now - around $1,000 if you can find one. Trouble is it doesn't *look* like a mainframe... my suggestion would be to cast around for a cheap used Integrated Server S/390 3006 (essentially a small mainframe built around a P/390E card) - that's what I run, see: http://www.corestore.org/is.htm Doesn't even need special power but looks, sounds like, and has the build quality of, a real (small) mainframe. Beyond that you're talking heavy iron. Any idea what the big early AS/400 boxes looked like, with a minimum of two racks for CPU, disk and tape? A 9370 type mainframe is exactly like that - uses the same chassis in fact. Biggest machine I've ever had running in the house? An 11/45. Everything bigger went straight to the workshop. Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### From: "Bevis" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:57:48 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-veK7O58kIcVXop4ySW/rPkgzdGytlx4GmMVD+uRJ+amvl93i20UmAQWdz53lZSomTVVMZ2F9fCj5j2L!lQBGTIzo3LyJMaFKPNK9TGdkUB3sNDKNlkMkZ5wg7CLR1ZnQlmpLbR5yzYVR9FUSWjJi74vomakN!13qY5g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:57:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102903 A good friend of mine [now deceased] used to have an IBM 360 in his garage back in the 1980's. Seems Blue Cross wanted to sell it and IBM offered them $500 for scrap. He learned of it and offered them $600 and bought it. The biggest problem with it [as I remember] was that it used 440V 3phase power and his local electric company charged him something like $10,000 to run that to his house. :) Don't really know what he did with it aside from play. He ended up giving it to his old college and they gave him a $250,000 tax write off! :) "Pete Zaitcev" wrote in message news:slrna759rh.jcj.zaitcev@devserv.devel.redhat.com... > Hello: > > I am curious if anyone knows of an information source on the Net > about running an IBM mainframe at a private residence. > I dimly remember either a FAQ or a list where someone described > how he got a written off DEC-10, which is a pretty big chunk > of metal. But for the life of me, I cannot google that FAQ again. > I am looking for information on how big bootable configs are > (e.g. if I can stuff it into an equivalent of PDP-11/70, > that would be about the largest possible size), which of them are > air cooled, availability of low-level documentation, and so on. > > I understand that it may be advisable to think about P/370, > but is just not the same. If I only wanted to have a PS/2 > to pretend that it is a mainframe, I would be better off > running Hercules on it. > > -- Pete > ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:09:06 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1014937746 4144 128.29.114.13 (28 Feb 2002 23:09:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:09:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102981 "Bevis" writes: >A good friend of mine [now deceased] used to have an IBM 360 in his garage >back in the 1980's. Seems Blue Cross wanted to sell it and IBM offered them >$500 for scrap. He learned of it and offered them $600 and bought it. The >biggest problem with it [as I remember] was that it used 440V 3phase power >and his local electric company charged him something like $10,000 to run >that to his house. :) A charge of $10,000 doesn't sound unreasonable. Normal service drops are single-phase (in the US, 240 VAC center-tapped), and in many residential areas only a single high-voltage phase is available on the poles. Feeding a residence with 120/208 VAC 3-phase (the standard IBM machine room power requirement in the US; it might be different elsewhere) would almost certainly require a dedicated 3-phase pole pig, with feeds running back to wherever the nearest 3-phase distribution lines could be found, plus the installation of service drops (including metering equipment) at the house. Even if everything falls into place and there is a 3-phase distribution on the street in front of his house, installing the rest of the dedicated equipment wouldn't be cheap. Joe Morris ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:49:35 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <346FF2596092D61B.834C44EE8F130584.DFE8A9B4158CCE22@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <3C7F085F.6296755@jkmicro.com> References: Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu Feb 28 22:44:36 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: ![eg11k-X*L,V[iEFO).@srF3 (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102925 Joe Morris wrote: > > "Bevis" writes: > > >A good friend of mine [now deceased] used to have an IBM 360 in his garage > >back in the 1980's. Seems Blue Cross wanted to sell it and IBM offered them > >$500 for scrap. He learned of it and offered them $600 and bought it. The > >biggest problem with it [as I remember] was that it used 440V 3phase power > >and his local electric company charged him something like $10,000 to run > >that to his house. :) > > A charge of $10,000 doesn't sound unreasonable. Normal service drops > are single-phase (in the US, 240 VAC center-tapped), and in many > residential areas only a single high-voltage phase is available on the > poles. > > Feeding a residence with 120/208 VAC 3-phase (the standard IBM machine room > power requirement in the US; it might be different elsewhere) would > almost certainly require a dedicated 3-phase pole pig, with feeds running > back to wherever the nearest 3-phase distribution lines could be found, > plus the installation of service drops (including metering equipment) > at the house. Even if everything falls into place and there is a > 3-phase distribution on the street in front of his house, installing > the rest of the dedicated equipment wouldn't be cheap. He's lucky to get it at all. PG&E won't do it for any price, at least in many neighborhoods. There are lively discussions on rec.crafts.metalworking about building static and rotary phase converters for running industrial strength lathes and mills in your garage. Making 3-phase can be as simple as connecting 220 to 2 of the legs of a 3-phase motor, starting it with a pull-cord and taking the 3-phase off of the 3 legs once it's up to speed. ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.23.4 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Reply-To: Nick Spalding Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:41:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.140.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 1014986516 193.203.140.6 (Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:41:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:41:56 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103023 Joe Morris wrote, in : > A charge of $10,000 doesn't sound unreasonable. Normal service drops > are single-phase (in the US, 240 VAC center-tapped), and in many > residential areas only a single high-voltage phase is available on the > poles. > > Feeding a residence with 120/208 VAC 3-phase (the standard IBM machine room > power requirement in the US; it might be different elsewhere) would > almost certainly require a dedicated 3-phase pole pig, with feeds running > back to wherever the nearest 3-phase distribution lines could be found, > plus the installation of service drops (including metering equipment) > at the house. Even if everything falls into place and there is a > 3-phase distribution on the street in front of his house, installing > the rest of the dedicated equipment wouldn't be cheap. Here in Ireland in suburban areas the norm is a pole line with 3 phase + neutral. In my particular street a pair of houses on one side of the street are fed off one phase + neutral, nominal 220v - a pair comes to my chimney and from there a pair goes to my neighbour's. The next pair of houses are fed from another phase and so on. Providing three phase supply would simply mean running all three phases from the nearest pole. In recent estates the cabling is underground; the phase distribution is similar but there is no reason for the houses to be paired. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:25:38 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <346FF2596092D61B.834C44EE8F130584.DFE8A9B4158CCE22@lp.airnews.net> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1014992738 5907 128.29.114.13 (1 Mar 2002 14:25:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:25:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102976 Jim Stewart writes: [3-phase power to a residence] >He's lucky to get it at all. PG&E won't do it for any price, at least >in many neighborhoods. Probably because it would require replacing the utility poles (to accommodate the additional phases and/or higher-voltage taps from the main distribution), or serious excavation work in areas where the utilities are buried. And I doubt that there is a tariff for 3-phase power to a residence, so you get the utility regulators to add to the equation. Yuck... >rec.crafts.metalworking about building static and rotary phase >converters for running industrial strength lathes and mills in your >garage. Making 3-phase can be as simple as connecting 220 to 2 of the >legs of a 3-phase motor, starting it with a pull-cord and taking the >3-phase off of the 3 legs once it's up to speed. Agreed; that (or a static rectifier/inverter; lots of old UPS boxes are being replaced, although service for them could be problematical) would provide the power required. And note that even some of the smaller IBM boxes (the 370/148 for example) used an MG set to provide 400 Hz power, so in addition to everything else anyone using one will have to provide a power supply capable of handling the startup inrush. Oh well...we can dream, can't we, even when it's not practical? Joe Morris ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:32:25 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1014993145 5938 128.29.114.13 (1 Mar 2002 14:32:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:32:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102982 Nick Spalding writes: >Joe Morris wrote, in : >> Even if everything falls into place and there is a >> 3-phase distribution on the street in front of his house, installing >> the rest of the dedicated equipment wouldn't be cheap. >Here in Ireland in suburban areas the norm is a pole line with 3 phase >+ neutral. That's the case in the US for many locations where the customer is in an urban environment, or on a suburban street that happens to also be a main power distribution route. Often, however, adjacent housing developments will be fed by a single phase from the distribution lines, and for users near the end of a utility's service area or near the boundary between two coverage areas of the same utility will have only a single phase. Joe Morris ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 1 Mar 2002 16:53:51 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!feed.news.qwest.net!newsfeed.fast.net!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102921 x-no-archive: yes Concerning the discussion of getting "commercial grade" power to run an old mainframe: In my area, the electric company will be glad to sell you whatever power you want. But it is your responsibility to provide the hookups and distribution and transformers from their main trunk lines. If you live near a main street, you likely are near trunk lines. But the cost of high voltage distribution lines, high voltage transformers, etc., is very expensive--a transformer could be about $10,000 just for the box. You need a specialized electrical contractor to handle such work and they're not cheap. As to the buying the power itself, that would actually pretty cheap. Essentially, as a high voltage customer, you are buying power from them at wholesale prices (after all, you had to buy all the transformers and distribution network). You could pay as low as half the price per kilowatt hour as a plain residential customer. Commercial power is sold with "demand" charges, that is, you are charged by the maximum peak power you consume and also time of day you need it. If you run your machine off hours and its power demand is relatively low, the actual cost of electricity to run it would be pretty cheap. (My community buys its power in that fashion, and we pay a very low rate for power. But we have to maintain our own distribution network and that is very expensive. In the end, we're ahead, but it is a lot of aggravation.) ###### From: lawrence@c896388-c.attbi.com (Lawrence Statton N1GAK) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Lines: 59 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.236.29.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1015025068 12.236.29.10 (Fri, 01 Mar 2002 23:24:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 23:24:28 GMT Organization: AT&T Broadband Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 23:24:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103026 On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:09:06 +0000 (UTC), Joe Morris wrote: >Feeding a residence with 120/208 VAC 3-phase (the standard IBM machine room >power requirement in the US; it might be different elsewhere) would >almost certainly require a dedicated 3-phase pole pig, with feeds running >back to wherever the nearest 3-phase distribution lines could be found, >plus the installation of service drops (including metering equipment) >at the house. Even if everything falls into place and there is a >3-phase distribution on the street in front of his house, installing >the rest of the dedicated equipment wouldn't be cheap. One of the great things about where I live (Guadalajara, Mexico) is: Plentiful 120/208 ... in fact 240 is unheard of. Houses have either a 15 to 30A 120V feed ... or for something larger a 100A 120-208Y -- but only two of the three phases. My neighbor has FIVE amp 120V service, and this ancient square meter that looks like it has been on his wall for 40 years. Getting all three is trivially easy, the meter rent is the same, install is virtually free. I did get some amazing looks when I ordered "servicio trifasico" for my tiny apartment, but it was only a week before I had three times the light :) Since the place I rent is in a block of 8 flats, all three phases were already brought down to the meter bank that services the building, it was just a matter of setting a 3-ph meter base and service disconect, and running new 6-guage wire into my unit to the already-waiting panel. Bingo, I've gone from 120V15A service to 120/208Y 50A. You could REEEALLY go nuts and opt for HV service and pick up a 30kVA 33kV/whatever transformer pretty cheap at one of a few dozen electrical jobbers all around downtown. Haven't gotten a quote on one, but I'll ask next time I'm in buying a breaker. If I ever needed 480 3ph that is probably what I'd do, because to get that you're going to pay an install premium to get CFE to set a pole pig "just for you". The big advantage of taking it at 33 kV is it gets insanely cheap. Recently retail electricity subsidies were substantially curtailed, so anyone consuming more than I think 249 kWh / 60-days is paying MXP 1.75 per kWh (About USD $0.20) For delivery voltage >480 VAC it drops to about MXP 0.60 / kWh with a demand charge that's pretty reasonable. A lot of larger apartment and multitenant office buildings have their own substation and provide 2dary metering to the tenants who pay the CFE (Comision Federal de Electricidad) on a pro-rata basis. That's the way it works in my office building downtown where the rent includes light -- they have a single HV feed on the roof, a couple of 175 kVA transformers, and distribute the 120/208 to all of the tenants without even bothering to meter it. There's a per-tenant disconnect down in the basement, and meter bases, but they're all just jumpered over (with ugly little stubs of 10-ga or 12-ga or zip-wire or whatever...This IS Mexico, after all). Mail -s "Evite SPAM" `echo 'lawrenabae@abaluon.abaom.mx' | sed s/aba/c/g ` --Lawrence ###### From: Mike Ross Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Message-ID: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 05:17:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.108.217.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 1015046279 66.108.217.161 (Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:17:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:17:59 EST Organization: Road Runner - NYC Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news-out.nyc.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103014 On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:57:48 GMT, "Bevis" wrote: >A good friend of mine [now deceased] used to have an IBM 360 in his garage >back in the 1980's. Seems Blue Cross wanted to sell it and IBM offered them >$500 for scrap. He learned of it and offered them $600 and bought it. The >biggest problem with it [as I remember] was that it used 440V 3phase power >and his local electric company charged him something like $10,000 to run >that to his house. :) > >Don't really know what he did with it aside from play. He ended up giving it >to his old college and they gave him a $250,000 tax write off! :) Oooooooooh. I'm always interested in chasing down leads on old IBM equipment... been after a 360 or 370 or System/3 and never got lucky yet... dare I ask you to divulge the name of the college, and any idea you might have of the final fate of the machine? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' ###### Message-ID: <3C80A910.2495D825@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:30:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.168.211 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1015065053 12.90.168.211 (Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:30:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:30:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103033 Mike Ross wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:57:48 GMT, "Bevis" wrote: > > >A good friend of mine [now deceased] used to have an IBM 360 in his garage > >back in the 1980's. Seems Blue Cross wanted to sell it and IBM offered them > >$500 for scrap. He learned of it and offered them $600 and bought it. The > >biggest problem with it [as I remember] was that it used 440V 3phase power > >and his local electric company charged him something like $10,000 to run > >that to his house. :) > > > >Don't really know what he did with it aside from play. He ended up giving it > >to his old college and they gave him a $250,000 tax write off! :) > > Oooooooooh. > > I'm always interested in chasing down leads on old IBM equipment... > been after a 360 or 370 or System/3 and never got lucky yet... dare I > ask you to divulge the name of the college, and any idea you might > have of the final fate of the machine? 15 years or more ago Charlie Gingell had a retired 360 in a storeroom at the Yale accellerator facility, and asked me if I wanted it. He has died since, but he worked for the chairman of the Physics Department - D.A. Bromley, who was ex-Chalk River AECL in the 50s, and I believe he is still chairman. The thing might still be there. Charlie and I had similar squirrelling instincts, but I restricted myself to smaller things :-) Finders fee on the tax rebate ? -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 02 Mar 2002 21:59:38 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6u4rjyy9c5.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1015102778 2678 10.0.3.2 (2 Mar 2002 20:59:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2002 20:59:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103039 Nick Spalding writes: > Joe Morris wrote, in : > > > A charge of $10,000 doesn't sound unreasonable. Normal service drops > > are single-phase (in the US, 240 VAC center-tapped), and in many > > residential areas only a single high-voltage phase is available on the > > poles. > > > Here in Ireland in suburban areas the norm is a pole line with 3 phase > + neutral. In my particular street a pair of houses on one side of > the street are fed off one phase + neutral, nominal 220v - a pair Looks like I am very well off here in Switzerland. The 8-appartement block I am in has 230/400V (ex 220/380) 75A underground cable into the basement. From there on each appartement gets its own 3*25A fused cable. In the appartement there is then an distribution box. Ours has 1 switch marked 15/380 (stove+oven) and 5 marked 10/380 (various rooms power and light). Yes, 3-phase in my bedroom would be a case of pulling 10m of 3 wires. Any normal electrician can do it. That is considered standard wiring here. The house is from the 1960s. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "Bevis" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Lines: 59 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:12:33 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-xFTCyFGK6dK56KnJpo08L6yiqhjsma0uNOjLBEkddMx93QzM0uSEWjDXw0FaRae2OU5vRh7kr7xTcgP!cj3Ui9LTK2v3Ku5sEIuTXSaZQQN1zwEBvMwKxVTdRyV9NiOW755YjD468KkaJY3NO8OSJXx4C5xp!vA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:12:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103045 "Mike Ross" wrote in message news:4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com... > On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:57:48 GMT, "Bevis" wrote: > > >A good friend of mine [now deceased] used to have an IBM 360 in his garage > >back in the 1980's. Seems Blue Cross wanted to sell it and IBM offered them > >$500 for scrap. He learned of it and offered them $600 and bought it. The > >biggest problem with it [as I remember] was that it used 440V 3phase power > >and his local electric company charged him something like $10,000 to run > >that to his house. :) > > > >Don't really know what he did with it aside from play. He ended up giving it > >to his old college and they gave him a $250,000 tax write off! :) > > Oooooooooh. > > I'm always interested in chasing down leads on old IBM equipment... > been after a 360 or 370 or System/3 and never got lucky yet... dare I > ask you to divulge the name of the college, and any idea you might > have of the final fate of the machine? > > Thanks > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > Rangers Catering Corps - 'we boil for the One, we fry for the One' > Since the incident I was talking about happened during the late 1970's, I trust you will understand that I do not remember what college it went to. I think it was in Alabama. UA? Auburn? I really can't remember. Nor do I have any idea what the college did with the machine. I assume, they used it! You must remember that back then [long ago and far, far away] IBM did not sell these machines. You had to have the clout of the Federal Government or a "really big" [as Ed Sullivan would have said] company to actually buy one. Most had to settle for leasing them. It was my understanding back at the time, that IBM made such a low ball offer for it was because they were upset with Blue Cross because of all the arm twisting Blue Cross had done to buy it. Of course, they also bought the 370 they replaced it with. :) Somehow, I doubt that you could get a quarter-mil tax write-off today for donating one of these beasties to a college. From looking at eBay, it would have to be an Altair or Imsai! :) Which brings up another question, WHY are the original Altairs going for so much on Ebay? Don't people remember they were crap? There were many machines that were MUCH better than the original Altairs back then. And Altair wasn't even the first home computer, so don't give that as a reason. :) Bevis ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:55:35 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.5-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!hub1.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103116 Bevis wrote: > > Which brings up another question, WHY are the original Altairs going for so > much on Ebay? Don't people remember they were crap? There were many machines > that were MUCH better than the original Altairs back then. And Altair wasn't > even the first home computer, so don't give that as a reason. :) > Mythology and the Free Market. People who want to be a part of "the good old days" - how many of those Altairs are ever *used*? (probably almost none). I suspect they're some sort of retro-chic antique status symbol, for the most part -- I'd guess that a "real" S100 enthusiast probably still has a couple of systems going from 20+ years ago :) A few other machines attract ebay prices that bear no resemblance to their utility or quality. Try buying an early PET and you'll see what I mean, or look at what Multias went for when they went from being "old junk" to collector's items. Or look at how a mono NeXT will sell for 2-3 times the price of a faster, more colourful SGI Indy :) I ebay stuff from my collection when I'm no longer using it -- I've occasionally been surprised at what I've sold things for - but I'm powerless to stop people making silly bids :P pete -- pete@fenelon.com "Irk the purists, irk the purists, it's a right good laugh." ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 04 Mar 2002 07:32:12 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 51 Sender: prep@k9.prep.synonet.com Message-ID: <87pu2l1b43.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> References: <346FF2596092D61B.834C44EE8F130584.DFE8A9B4158CCE22@lp.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1015207237 29631 202.154.80.9 (4 Mar 2002 02:00:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 02:00:37 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p079.sw03.auto.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103119 Jim Stewart writes: > Joe Morris wrote: > > "Bevis" writes: > > >A good friend of mine [now deceased] used to have an IBM 360 in > > >his garage back in the 1980's. Seems Blue Cross wanted to sell it > > >and IBM offered them $500 for scrap. He learned of it and offered > > >them $600 and bought it. The biggest problem with it [as I > > >remember] was that it used 440V 3phase power and his local > > >electric company charged him something like $10,000 to run that > > >to his house. :) > > A charge of $10,000 doesn't sound unreasonable. Normal service > > drops are single-phase (in the US, 240 VAC center-tapped), and in > > many residential areas only a single high-voltage phase is > > available on the poles. > > Feeding a residence with 120/208 VAC 3-phase (the standard IBM > > machine room power requirement in the US; it might be different > > elsewhere) would almost certainly require a dedicated 3-phase pole > > pig, with feeds running back to wherever the nearest 3-phase > > distribution lines could be found, plus the installation of > > service drops (including metering equipment) at the house. Even > > if everything falls into place and there is a 3-phase distribution > > on the street in front of his house, installing the rest of the > > dedicated equipment wouldn't be cheap. > He's lucky to get it at all. PG&E won't do it for any price, at > least in many neighborhoods. There are lively discussions on > rec.crafts.metalworking about building static and rotary phase > converters for running industrial strength lathes and mills in your > garage. Making 3-phase can be as simple as connecting 220 to 2 of > the legs of a 3-phase motor, starting it with a pull-cord and taking > the 3-phase off of the 3 legs once it's up to speed. They should move to here then. 3ph to houses is pretty standard, though we have just, in the last few years, move to 240VAC from 256! WA was *the* place to test your gear ;) Phase Linear amps would last about 3 weeks till they revamped them. I have a 3x100A feed to the house. Just a matter of asking. Also having a 11/70 and a KL-10E make good power a good idea. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 4 Mar 2002 06:40:09 GMT Organization: Red Hat Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: devserv.devel.redhat.com X-Trace: cronkite.cygnus.com 1015224009 18132 172.16.58.1 (4 Mar 2002 06:40:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 06:40:09 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103060 The thread unravels into the area of 360s, and has a good chance to reach 1401 becofore it dies off. However, I really cannot afford something "really real" even if I wanted one. So, I am thinking about something smaller. This is information which I found so far about "reasonable" boxes: * 7437 The oldest small mainframe. Was undeservedly unsuccessful, so there is no chance to find one. May have no internal disks, so assumes block mux and an array. * "Racetrack" possibly an alias of 7437. * Amdahl something A precise ripoff of that was made by IZOT, Bulgaria, and I saw it. It was a box of a size of an under desk filing cabinet. But it used block-mux, which is a problem. Needs console diagnostic CPU of the same size as the machine proper (with CPU, core and channels all together), booting from 8" floppies (PITA to prevent from bitrot). Probably impossible to find. * P/370 Board for PS/2 Needs some binary software for OS/2 or AIX to run. (rejected because Hercules does the same job better and uncool in general). * 9370 possibly an alias for P/370. * P/390 & P/390E Same as P/370, but faster and Linux capable. May make some sense if a good deal is found. * s390 Multiprise 3000 H50 Linux capable. Size seems ok. Uses IBM channel I/O, but perhaps can be used with PCI. Unfortunately, it is not completely obsolete yet, so it takes a LOT of money to get one. http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/s390/multiprise/ The last entry seems to fit the bill the best, if only I ignore the price. So, perhaps I'll get one in 7 or 9 years when they get a bit cheaper on the second hand market. -- Pete ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 380 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 10:34:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.58.60.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015238089 65.58.60.33 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 02:34:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 02:34:49 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 02:34:42 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103090 zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) writes: > The thread unravels into the area of 360s, and has a good > chance to reach 1401 becofore it dies off. However, I really > cannot afford something "really real" even if I wanted one. > So, I am thinking about something smaller. > > This is information which I found so far about "reasonable" boxes: > > * 7437 > The oldest small mainframe. Was undeservedly unsuccessful, > so there is no chance to find one. May have no internal disks, > so assumes block mux and an array. > > * "Racetrack" > possibly an alias of 7437. > > * Amdahl something > A precise ripoff of that was made by IZOT, Bulgaria, and I saw it. > It was a box of a size of an under desk filing cabinet. > But it used block-mux, which is a problem. Needs console diagnostic > CPU of the same size as the machine proper (with CPU, core and > channels all together), booting from 8" floppies (PITA to prevent > from bitrot). Probably impossible to find. > > * P/370 > Board for PS/2 Needs some binary software for OS/2 or AIX to run. > (rejected because Hercules does the same job better and uncool > in general). > > * 9370 > possibly an alias for P/370. > > * P/390 & P/390E > Same as P/370, but faster and Linux capable. May make some sense > if a good deal is found. > > * s390 Multiprise 3000 H50 > Linux capable. Size seems ok. Uses IBM channel I/O, but perhaps > can be used with PCI. Unfortunately, it is not completely obsolete > yet, so it takes a LOT of money to get one. > http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/s390/multiprise/ > > The last entry seems to fit the bill the best, if only I ignore > the price. So, perhaps I'll get one in 7 or 9 years when they > get a bit cheaper on the second hand market. > > -- Pete 7437 was (IBM Fellow) Beausoleil's A74 machine (separate box with connection to PC). P/370 & P/390 were/are microchannel cards ... effectively follow-on to xt/at/370 ("washington") cards. There is image of p/390 card at: http://pucc.princeton.edu/~melinda/ 9370 was endicott low-end 370 (departmental) mainframe. misc xt/370, at/370, & a74 refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#42 bloat http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#23 Old IBM's http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#5 IBM XT/370 and AT/370 (was Re: Computer of the century) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#29 Operating systems, guest and actual http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#75 Mainframe operating systems http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#52 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#55 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#56 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#89 database (or b-tree) page sizes http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#28 IBM's "VM for the PC" c.1984?? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#53 S/370 PC board http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#19 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#20 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#51 DARPA was: Short Watson Biography http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#24 HP Compaq merger, here we go again. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#92 "blocking factors" (Was: Tapes) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#4 Buffer overflow http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#11 The demise of compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#43 IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#45 IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?] slightly related departmental server refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#16 middle layer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#43 FA: Early IBM Software and Reference Manuals http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#44 Call for folklore - was Re: So it's cyclical. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#56 Contiguous file system http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#15 Replace SNA communication to host with something else http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#23 Alpha vs. Itanic: facts vs. FUD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#34 Hercules etc. IBM not just missing a great opportunity... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#39 195 was: Computer Typesetting Was: Movies with source code http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#2 The demise of compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#7 The demise of compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#0 Microcode? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#4 Microcode? (& index searching) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#37 Poor Man's clustering idea http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#44 PDP-10 Archive migration plan http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#0 Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? some a74 press IBM's VM/SP Device Cuts Mainframe Load InfoWorld, November 7, 1988 by Sharon Fisher and Alice LaPlante IBM is now shipping, on a special-order basis, a PS/2-based device that runs the VM/SP mainframe operting system. The IBM 7437 VM/SP Technical Workstation device offloads technically oriented, processor-intensive mainframe applications, such as computer- aided design, engineering software development, and geophysical mapping, IBM said. The separate processor reduces the load on the mainframe and provides a more consistent response time. The device consists of two parts: the 7437 processor itself, which is a floor-standing unit, and a PS/2 Model 60, 70, or 80 that provides I/O support to the 7437 processor. The 7437 uses IBM-proprietary 32-bit technology, said Marty Ziskind, an advisory engineer in the IBM Fellow department. Users can run the 7437 as a stand-alone VM system, a host-attached VM workstation, a host terminal attached to a VM or MVS host, or a PS/2 running DOS 3.3 or 4.0, Ziskind said. The system is "multiple-user, single-seat," he said. "It's like a 9370 with one terminal." Users can toggle between VM and DOS sessions. OS/2 and IBM's AIX implementation of UNIX are not supported. Software and the VM operating system can be downloaded from a 370 mainframe by emulating a 3270 terminal or through a Token Ring link. Programs written for the 370 can run on the 7437, assuming they aren't timing-dependent and don't require specific features of the mainframe models of the 370, IBM said. A 7437 VM/SP Technical Workstation Interface Adapter Card is installed in the PS/2 used for I/O. The PS/2 is connected to the main 7437 unit via a special cable. The speed of the 7437 varies depending on the speed of the PS/2 used for I/O. Users who plan to use the 7437 as an engineering workstation may want to use the IBM 5080 Graphics System, the company said. This includes an MCA bus master adapter card for the PS/2 and a choice of several models of the 5085 Graphic Processor Unit. Required software includes DOS 3.3 plus one copy of VM/SP, Release 5 and the IBM 7437 VM/SP Technical Workstation Host Server for the IBM 370 host servicing the 7437s. The IBM 7437 costs $18,100, with a 25-unit minimum. The 5080 Graphics System Hardware costs an additional $1,300. ================================================================ PC WEEK, October 31, 1988 IBM'S SYSTEM/370 WORKSTATION (A74) IBM WORKSTATION BRINGS POWER OF MAINFRAME TO MICRO CHANNEL By J. Cortino IBM is quietly offering a new System/370 workstation that gives users the horsepower of a 9370 host system in a much smaller unit and at a vastly lower cost. IBM, which has not officially announced the workstation, will show it to selected customers at the Autofact '88 trade show in Chicago this week, according to Martin Ziskind, IBM Fellow Department, an advisory engineer in Kingston, N.Y. The System/370 Technical Workstation consists of an IBM PS/2 Model 60 or 80 and a floor-standing machine about the size of a PC AT that contains System/370 mainframe circuitry, IBM officials confirmed last week. The system allows users to locally process high-end applications, such as computer-aided design and manufacturing (CAD/CAM), without having to go up to the mainframe, they said. "The appeal of the System/370 is that is lets end users work with CAD/CAM software on a workstation," said Daniel Caldwell, IBM's product marketing administrator for computer- augmented design and manipulation (CADAM). "It takes the load off the mainframe and gives users more autonomy at the same time." Another key to the system, observers said, is its use of the PS/2 and its Micro Channel architecture. "The PS/2 is the disk drive, the memory and the keyboard for the System/370," said Ziskind. "In order for this whole arrangement to work, the System/370 must link to the PS/2 through the Micro Channel bus." "One of the best things about this, is that it looks like something is finally going to make use of the Micro Channel," said Thomas Foth, senior developer at Relay Communications Inc., a software developer in Danbury, Conn. The System/370 Technical Workstation links to the PS/2 via a cable and an interface adapter card. The card is connected to the Micro Channel bus in the PS/2. The workstation can run Virtual Machine/System Product (VM/SP) release 5 applications written for System/370 mainframe environments, such as CADAM and circuit-board design applications. The System/370 workstation can be configured in four ways as a stand-alone VM workstation running IBM System/370 mainframe applications, as a host-attached VM workstation sharing mainframe resources; as a host terminal connected to a VM/SP or MVS host locally or remotely, and as a PS/2 running DOS. IBM is offering the system as a "special bid" processor only to qualified customers, and has no plans at this time to offer the system to its entire customer base, according to Ziskind. "We want to sell it to people who understand the VM environment," he said. The System/370 workstation is priced at $18,100 and $19,400 depending upon configuration. A 9370 Model 20, the low-end model of IBM's mainframe line, can cost from $40,000 to $70,000. ----------------------------------------------------------------- PC WEEK, October 31, 1988 THE WEEK IN REVIEW MICRO CHANNEL FINALLY FINDS A PURPOSE IN LIFE At last, it appears that we have reached the point where rumored benefits of IBM's Micro Channel architecture are beginning to emerge. Our Page 1 story about the oh-so-quiet emergence of an MCA-based System/370 workstation shows how the MCA is critical to allowing PS/2 boxes take on many personalities. With the Micro Channel, a PS/2 can provide local I/O services to VM-oriented, mainframe circuits - just as it can for traditional PC setups. The value of mainframe hybrids such as the 370 workstation can be seen in the expansion of software systems that require deep integration between desktops and data centers, as is noted in our Project Management Focus On, Page 78. Perhaps that is why a passel of the heretofore timid MCA cloners have finally gotten the courage to go live with their products. Between Comdex/Fall and the end of the year, we can expect to see a half-dozen or so PS/2-alikes. Another reason the clones may be coming is that the PS/2 may find some hidden, but shockingly large, markets. On Page 5, analyst Peter Coffee - who advises Aerospace Inc., the U.S. Air Force's civilian think tank, about PC systems - points out how neatly MCA fits into the biggest PC procurement order in history. That other alternative standard, Unix, gets a lot of ink again, too. The operating system whose time may have come is featured in a 30-page Special Section. It's also the subject of our editorial on Page 72, where we note that so many people seem to be trying to improve Unix, they may just kill it with kindness. Paul Schindler argues in his Management by Objection column that Unix euphoria may be dangerous to micro managers' health. Other points of note: In Software, Jim Forbes reports that the dishy descriptor, 'groupware,' may already be passe. It's teamwork that's critical today. There's a nifty combination in Networking, Page 31: Fax and Tax, the integration of fax systems and E-mail and networks designed with tax departments in mind. And for a colorful, high-res display of wide-ranging responses to product possibilities and satisfaction, check out this week's PC Week Poll of third-party EGA and VGA boards. ================================================================ FROM MANAGEMENT INFORMATION SYSTEMS WEEK, 11/7/88: IBM Quietly Sells a VM Workstation Single-User System, by Matthew Cain NEW YORK - For the past two months, International Business Machines Corp. has been quietly selling a single-user 370 architecture workstation that runs applications based on the VM operating system. IBM classifies the machine as a "special product" which is not available through normal marketing channels. A customer has to contact an IBM salesperson and then requests a price on the workstation. In standard IBMese, the computer is an RPQ product, for Request for Price Quote. "It's like a speakeasy," Gary Smith, IBM's manager of market development for the workstation, "you have to knock three times." He said IBM was not marketing the machine because it was uncertain if demand would warrant a full-scale campaign. The workstation, officially known as the IBM 7437 VM/SP Technical Workstation, is actually a 370 architecture co-processor connected by cable to a high-end PS/2 microcomputer. The cable is hooked up to a card which is inserted into the microcomputer. In this fashion, the PS/2 performs all I/O, provides all DASD (direct-access storage device) and contains all disk drives, Smith said. The 370 co-processor, which is the same size and shape as a floor-standing PS/2 model 70, is priced at $18,100, which includes 16 Mbytes of memory and the right to copy the VM needed for the operating system transfer are included. The price does not include the microcomputer. For an additional $1,300, a card is available that enables the user to hook up IBM's 5080 graphics display system, which is primarily used for computer-aided design and computer-aided engineering (CAD/CAE applications. Applications Smith said the workstation would find applications primarily in these fields because of the existence of sophisticated software which was not yet available in singer-user versions. For example, Smith said the popular design engineering software made by Cadam, Inc., Burbank, Calif., was not available in a single-user version, yet demand existed for such a product. In fact, at last week's Autofact in Chicago (see related story, page 11) Cadam was showing the 7431 VM/SP workstation in its booth. The machine was also seen in a booth sponsored by Valisys Corp. Sunnyvale, Calif., as well as in IBM's booth. In selling the workstation, IBM has to overcome customer resistance caused by a similar offering the firm had previously brought out. The AT/370 was an attempt also to download VM to a single-user machine, in this case to the PC/AT. However, the machine was not a success because of limited DASD and limited processing power and because the machine ran only a subset of the VM operating system. Smith said that, when dealing with potential customers, he sometimes has to answer questions about "the perceived deficiencies with the AT/370." He said the 7431 VM/SP "overcomes a lot of that" because it has six times the processing power of the PC/AT, 10 times the DASD, and a full-function VM operating system, VM/SP Version 5. IBM has been using the machine internally for some time, according to Dan Caldwell, IBM's product marketing administrator for computer-augmented design and manipulation (CADAM). "IBM's commitment is to use what we sell and sell what we use," he said. Competition with 9370 Thomas Foth, a developer at software house Relay Communications Inc., Danbury, Conn., who is familiar with the machine, said IBM was not aggressively marketing the workstation because it might cannibalize IBM's primary VM platform, the 9370 departmental mainframe. Because the price of the workstation was about one-half the price of a low-end 9370, it might take business away from the larger system. He said the attitude of the 9370 people was "don't compete with my 9370; get off my turf." However, IBM's Smith disagreed. He said the workstation had the blessing of the 9370 developers and expanded the range of the line. "The market is saying we need another entry point' to the 9370 line, he said. He also noted that all other 9370 machines were multi-user systems. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:59:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1015250384 14303 128.29.114.13 (4 Mar 2002 13:59:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:59:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103122 "Bevis" writes: >You must remember that back then [long ago and far, far away] IBM did not >sell these machines. You had to have the clout of the Federal Government or >a "really big" [as Ed Sullivan would have said] company to actually buy one. >Most had to settle for leasing them. IBM did at one time have a "lease-only" policy, but that ended with the original Consent Decree ('53?), long before the S/360 came was released in 1964. In the S/360 era, there was a reasonably consistent pricing structure in which the purchase price of a box was about 40 times the monthly lease rate. Not shown in this ratio was the bundling of maintenance into the leasing figure; a purchase decision had to include that cost into the equation. Also not reflected in the 40:1 ratio was the restriction of 176 hours per month usage limit for leased machines; for commercial customers there were additional costs if that figure was exceeded. A 24x7 shop would find this charge to bias the equation in favor of purchasing. As a side note, by comparison to today's frantic pace of hardware designs that make products introduced yesterday obsolete by no later than next week, in the old mainframe world of the S/360 systems were long-term investments. Joe Morris ###### From: Luis Fernandes Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 04 Mar 2002 09:55:49 -0500 Organization: Ryerson Polytechnic University Lines: 7 Sender: elf@radon.ee.ryerson.ca Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sulfur.ee.ryerson.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.0.106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!news.ryerson.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103143 This is going to sound like a silly question, but how did mainframes fare when the power was cut in the middle of its operation? Did the OS boot OK when the power came back on and did it just continue running where it left off (it had core mem, right)? Did mainframes ever need UPS'? ###### From: lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 4 Mar 2002 15:23:02 GMT Organization: The PACSIBM SIG BBS Lines: 82 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: bbs.cpcn.com Originator: root@bbs.cpcn.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.71.34.15!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.voicenet.com!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!netaxs.newsread.com!bbs.cpcn.com!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103176 x-no-archive: yes > Also not reflected in the 40:1 ratio was the restriction of 176 hours > per month usage limit for leased machines; for commercial customers > there were additional costs if that figure was exceeded. A 24x7 shop > would find this charge to bias the equation in favor of purchasing. Weren't shops that operated their mainframe only during one shift rather rare? Almost every place I ever saw ran at least two shifts per day, and many ran three. The big heavy batch jobs would run overnight. > As a side note, by comparison to today's frantic pace of hardware designs > that make products introduced yesterday obsolete by no later than next > week, in the old mainframe world of the S/360 systems were long-term > investments. It amazes me in the mainframe world that new generations are introduces every few years. But I'm not sure the lifespan of _some_ (not all) earlier products was much longer. For instance, the original IBM 701 and 702 were replaced by later models not too long after introduction. And I think the tube based high end machines of the late 1950s (ie 705 and 709) were replaced, though I don't know what replaced the business-oriented 705 for large shops. Physically, the 1401 lasted only a few years before S/360 replaced it; though in spirit through emulation it lasted until relatively recently (and I wonder if there still isn't some place running 1401 Autocoder under emulation). I can't help but wonder if that was the longest lasting machine-specific language ever. The S/360 had a reasonably long lifespan before the S/370 was announced to replace (I think 6-7 years betwen announcements). But once S/370 hit, the changes became fast and furious--the S/370-xx5 models soon became the S/370-xx8 (ie 135 -> 138) models, and then the 4300 and 30xx series came out. I'm not sure where S/370 stops and S/390 begins. (The machine we're using today is a 96xx which I forget what. In contrast to the old days, almost everyone doesn't even know what specific model it is nor cares.) Some machines, though, had a long lifespan. The 604 calculator and the 650 computer was manufactured for many years. (Why they kept making 650s as late as 1962 I don't know, wouldn't 1401s have been cheaper by that point?) I wonder when IBM manufactured its last pure unit-record machine, such as the last 407 or 402 tabulator, 082 sorter, etc. Until 1962 IBM made more money from tab machines than electronic computers. But at some point, computers, especially the 1401 with its high speed printer, was replacing tab shops and those machines would get returned and be available for use elsewhere. While many computer rooms retained a piece or two of tab equipment (like sorters and interpreters) for supplemental functions, they weren't using to the extent of the past. I also wonder when the last pure tab machine installation was started. Judging by ads in 1960s Datamation, my guess is probably in the early 1960s. I wonder if, as tab machines were returned, IBM put them "on sale" to attract new customers previously too small to justify the rental cost. The flip side is that tab machines, esp as they got older, required lots of mechanical maintenance and that cost can't be stopped. [I know later IBM rented discounted 1401s, one place got one in 1966, but around 1972 it became troublesome and was replaced by a S/360-30.] (I know some specialty all-transistor calculators--608, 609-- were built in the late 1950s, but I think they were more of an experimental bed to play with transistors and get experience rather than a real product.) ###### From: John A. Stovall Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:23:37 -0600 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1t378u872th2p5kp8vmd49imuqa1vduhqr@4ax.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ir-stovall.tarleton.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 15:23:37 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feeds.jump.net!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103165 On 04 Mar 2002 09:55:49 -0500, Luis Fernandes wrote: >This is going to sound like a silly question, but how did mainframes >fare when the power was cut in the middle of its operation? Did the >OS boot OK when the power came back on and did it just continue >running where it left off (it had core mem, right)? > >Did mainframes ever need UPS'? The early CDC Cyber were very sensitive to power lose and you could end up having to reload all the files and users restarting jobs. Oh, the joys of the Cyber 72 and 6600 at SMU in the '70's during thunderstorm season. Conoco in Ponca City Oklahoma was even more fun with the 885 disk drives in a shared file system configuration between multiple mainframes (860's) which required the mainframes to be take down in a specific sequences or you would have major file problems. Yes, Mainframes used UPS. This may be urban legend but I heard at China Lake there was a UPS there which was the power unit out of an old diesel electric Sub. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 87 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:04:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.22.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015261451 65.59.22.94 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:04:11 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:04:11 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:04:14 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103086 Luis Fernandes writes: > This is going to sound like a silly question, but how did mainframes > fare when the power was cut in the middle of its operation? Did the > OS boot OK when the power came back on and did it just continue > running where it left off (it had core mem, right)? most did not, part of the issue wasn't so much the consistency of the stuff in core/memory ... it was the consistency of all the possible ancillary options that might have been "in-flight" when the failure occured. with respect to filesystem consistency, depends on the "mainframe". There is discussion of multics ... with unix type file system checking on power-up ... taking two hrs. there is also discussion of 360/370 mainframe disk infrastructure that if the power failure happened in the middle of a write operation, there was enough power for the disk to complete the write, but there was situtions where there was not enough power to maintain memory and transfer the contents of memory to disk ... as a result the disk would be getting all zeros for completeing the write. for that failure mode, there was no indication that the write had failed to complete correctly ... in fact there was no disk read error indication at all. this particular failue mode was one of the reason for the CMS EDF (enhanced disk file system) in the '70s. The CMS filesystem from the mid-60s always did "shadow" writes involving any changed metadata (master file directory information) records, but when it went to commit the shadow writes, it would rewrite record 4 (that included indication of the new version rather than the old). EDF used paired record 4/5 and would ping-pong writing the record. On any resume/reboot situation, EDF would read both records 4 and 5 and determine which was to be used (i.e. simplest was having version number at the end of the record). The majority of write failues would be caught be disk hardware and there would be some error indication on read (except for the power-failue, zero propogation problem). The zero propogation problem wasn't intrinsictly a filesystem inconsistency problem involving huge amounts of cached and possibly altered filesystem metadata in memory that would possibly trickle back to disk possibly resulting in inconsistent filesystem control information. All of the metadata on disk was kept maintained consistently across multiple records. There was, however, this hardware issue. A similar issue has been discussed regarding modern disks, many of which will guarentee an atomic write of a single record, aka either it is not written or it is written completely & correctly (faced with a power failure in operation). Even with modern disks guarenteeing atomic single record writes ... there are some number of situations where the filesystem is using a logical record size that is a multiple of a physical record ... potentially giving rise to a similar filesystem issue with incomplete or incorrect filesystem single "record" write in the face of a power failure ... where there is not a corresponding read error indication (one resume/reboot). Note that the hardware disk failure issue could also have some impact on DBMS that maintain ACID properties (transaction either commits complete and consistent or doesn't happen at all) if such an incorrect writing of a DBMS log record resulted in improper handling on resume/restart. random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#28 Log Structured filesystems -- think twice http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#53 Internet and/or ARPANET? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#80 write rings http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#81 write rings http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#85 Mainframe power failure (somehow morphed from Re: write rings) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#43 4M pages are a bad idea (was Re: AMD 64bit Hammer CPU and VM) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#47 4M pages are a bad idea (was Re: AMD 64bit Hammer CPU and VM) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#50 Egghead cracked, MS IIS again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#6 Disk drive behavior http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#38 Competitors to SABRE? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#3 Power failure during write (was: Re: Disk drive behavior (again)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#76 Unix hard links http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#80 Unix hard links http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#81 Unix hard links http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#52 misc loosely-coupled, sysplex, cluster, supercomputer, & electronic commerce http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#45 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#37 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#57 Contiguous file system http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#58 Contiguous file system http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#34 Does it support "Journaling"? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#62 TOPS-10 logins (Was Re: HP-2000F - want to know more about it) -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <1t378u872th2p5kp8vmd49imuqa1vduhqr@4ax.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:09:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.22.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015261767 65.59.22.94 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:09:27 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:09:27 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:09:30 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103100 John A. Stovall writes: > >Did mainframes ever need UPS'? > > The early CDC Cyber were very sensitive to power lose and you could > end up having to reload all the files and users restarting jobs. Oh, > the joys of the Cyber 72 and 6600 at SMU in the '70's during > thunderstorm season. Conoco in Ponca City Oklahoma was even more fun > with the 885 disk drives in a shared file system configuration between > multiple mainframes (860's) which required the mainframes to be take > down in a specific sequences or you would have major file problems. > > Yes, Mainframes used UPS. This may be urban legend but I heard at > China Lake there was a UPS there which was the power unit out of an > old diesel electric Sub. there is the one about the 6600 at berekely and its shutdown from the '60s ... not because of power ... but because of thermal. the story as i remember was every tuesday morning about 10am the 6600 would (thermal) shutdown. they eventually traced it to a loss of water pressure; a combination of the lawn being watered ... at the same time as a class break (and resulting nearly simultaneous large number of flushes). -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 154 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:33:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.22.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015263213 65.59.22.94 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:33:33 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:33:33 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:33:36 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103080 lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: > The S/360 had a reasonably long lifespan before the S/370 > was announced to replace (I think 6-7 years betwen announcements). > But once S/370 hit, the changes became fast and furious--the > S/370-xx5 models soon became the S/370-xx8 (ie 135 -> 138) > models, and then the 4300 and 30xx series came out. I'm not > sure where S/370 stops and S/390 begins. (The machine we're > using today is a 96xx which I forget what. In contrast to > the old days, almost everyone doesn't even know what specific > model it is nor cares.) things started out with the "mid-life kickers" (incremental modifications to existing machines) ... but effectively both the automobile industry and the mainframe industry were on similar seven year product design cycles. The 303x were somewhere inbetween. The big thing in 303x was the channel director. Basically a 155/158 had integrated channels (handled six channels) ... effectively the processor engine was time-shared between the integrated channel microcode function and the 370 instruction set execution microcode function. A 303x channel director handled six channels (for >six channels, needed multiple directors) and was basically a repackaged 158 engine w/o the 370 instruction set microcode (aka dedicated to the channel function). A 3031 was a 158 w/o the integrated channel microcode and reconfigured to work with a channel director (sort of a asymmetric two processor configuration). A 3032 was a 168 reconfigured to work with channel director. A 3033 started out as 168 wiring diagram mapped to newer chip technology that was about 20percent faster and had about ten times the circuit density/chip. The first pass at 3033 would have been about 1/5th faster than 168-3 but then there was some specific tuning of the logic to take some advantage of more on-chip operations ... which eventually pushed the 3033 to about 50percent faster than 168-3 by the time of first customer ship. After that, things still continued on the seven year cycle ... but there were two teams, working in parallel producing products offset. The 3081 was the "158" team ... the 3090 was the "168" team. The post "xx8" modules had less of a well defined continuum. The 4341 and the 3031 significantly overlapped: misc 4341 &/or 3031 refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7 IBM S/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#36 why is there an "@" key? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#52 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#53 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#57 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#21 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#22 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#63 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#65 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#67 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#12 Multics Nostalgia http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#0 Microcode? slightly related automobile seven year cycle: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#41 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in the US (was Re: American bigotry) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#43 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in the US (was Re: American bigotry) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#43 Economic Factors on Automation random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#14 S/360 addressing http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#7 IBM 7090 (360s, 370s, apl, etc) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#3 What is an IBM 137/148 ??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#20 Why Mainframes? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#34 ... cics ... from posting from another list http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#50 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional life http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7 IBM S/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#36 why is there an "@" key? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#61 Living legends http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#74 Read if over 40 and have Mainframe background http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#75 Read if over 40 and have Mainframe background http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#103 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#108 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#110 OS/360 names and error codes (was: Humorous and/or Interesting Opcodes) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#112 OS/360 names and error codes (was: Humorous and/or Interesting Opcodes) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#123 Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#176 S/360 history http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#181 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#187 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#188 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#190 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#78 Mainframe operating systems http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#90 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#37 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#38 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#50 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#65 oddly portable machines http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#5 TF-1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#35 What level of computer is needed for a computer to Love? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#44 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#61 TF-1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#69 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#75 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#76 Is a VAX a mainframe? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#83 Is a VAX a mainframe? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#57 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#58 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#43 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in the US (was Re: American bigotry) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#11 360/370 instruction cycle time http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#28 Could CDR-coding be on the way back? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#29 Could CDR-coding be on the way back? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#62 California DMV http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#63 Are the L1 and L2 caches flushed on a page fault ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#28 So long, comp.arch http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#37 John Mashey's greatest hits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#39 John Mashey's greatest hits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#56 Why SMP at all anymore? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#83 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#1 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#3 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#6 OS/360 (was LINUS for S/390) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#54 VM & VSE news http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#55 VM & VSE news http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#2 Alpha: an invitation to communicate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#44 Wired News :The Grid: The Next-Gen Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#13 GETMAIN R/RU (was: An IEABRC Adventure) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#34 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#3 YKYGOW... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#13 Parity - why even or odd (was Re: Load Locked (was: IA64 running out of steam)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#14 Parity - why even or odd (was Re: Load Locked (was: IA64 running out of steam)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#20 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#4 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#7 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#8 Minimalist design (was Re: Parity - why even or odd) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#73 Expanded Storage? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#14 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#24 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#32 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#39 195 was: Computer Typesetting Was: Movies with source code http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#58 Certificate Authentication Issues in IE and Verisign http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#79 a.f.c history checkup... (was What specifications will the standard year 2001 PC have?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#11 The demise of compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#36 a.f.c history checkup... (was What specifications will the standard year 2001 PC have?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#48 Microcode? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#2 Microcode? (& index searching) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#3 Microcode? (& index searching) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#32 First DESKTOP Unix Box? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#40 using >=4GB of memory on a 32-bit processor -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 154 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:33:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.22.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015263213 65.59.22.94 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:33:33 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:33:33 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:33:36 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103080 lwinson@bbs.cpcn.com (lwin) writes: > The S/360 had a reasonably long lifespan before the S/370 > was announced to replace (I think 6-7 years betwen announcements). > But once S/370 hit, the changes became fast and furious--the > S/370-xx5 models soon became the S/370-xx8 (ie 135 -> 138) > models, and then the 4300 and 30xx series came out. I'm not > sure where S/370 stops and S/390 begins. (The machine we're > using today is a 96xx which I forget what. In contrast to > the old days, almost everyone doesn't even know what specific > model it is nor cares.) things started out with the "mid-life kickers" (incremental modifications to existing machines) ... but effectively both the automobile industry and the mainframe industry were on similar seven year product design cycles. The 303x were somewhere inbetween. The big thing in 303x was the channel director. Basically a 155/158 had integrated channels (handled six channels) ... effectively the processor engine was time-shared between the integrated channel microcode function and the 370 instruction set execution microcode function. A 303x channel director handled six channels (for >six channels, needed multiple directors) and was basically a repackaged 158 engine w/o the 370 instruction set microcode (aka dedicated to the channel function). A 3031 was a 158 w/o the integrated channel microcode and reconfigured to work with a channel director (sort of a asymmetric two processor configuration). A 3032 was a 168 reconfigured to work with channel director. A 3033 started out as 168 wiring diagram mapped to newer chip technology that was about 20percent faster and had about ten times the circuit density/chip. The first pass at 3033 would have been about 1/5th faster than 168-3 but then there was some specific tuning of the logic to take some advantage of more on-chip operations ... which eventually pushed the 3033 to about 50percent faster than 168-3 by the time of first customer ship. After that, things still continued on the seven year cycle ... but there were two teams, working in parallel producing products offset. The 3081 was the "158" team ... the 3090 was the "168" team. The post "xx8" modules had less of a well defined continuum. The 4341 and the 3031 significantly overlapped: misc 4341 &/or 3031 refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7 IBM S/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#36 why is there an "@" key? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#52 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#53 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#57 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#21 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#22 Disk caching and file systems. Disk history...people forget http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#63 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#65 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#67 Pentium 4 Prefetch engine? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#12 Multics Nostalgia http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#0 Microcode? slightly related automobile seven year cycle: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#41 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in the US (was Re: American bigotry) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#43 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in the US (was Re: American bigotry) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#43 Economic Factors on Automation random refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/93.html#14 S/360 addressing http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#7 IBM 7090 (360s, 370s, apl, etc) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#3 What is an IBM 137/148 ??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#20 Why Mainframes? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#23 Fear of Multiprocessing? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#34 ... cics ... from posting from another list http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#50 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional life http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#7 IBM S/360 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#36 why is there an "@" key? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#61 Living legends http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#74 Read if over 40 and have Mainframe background http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#75 Read if over 40 and have Mainframe background http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#103 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#108 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#110 OS/360 names and error codes (was: Humorous and/or Interesting Opcodes) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#112 OS/360 names and error codes (was: Humorous and/or Interesting Opcodes) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#123 Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#176 S/360 history http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#181 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#187 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#188 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#190 Merced Processor Support at it again http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#78 Mainframe operating systems http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#90 Ux's good points. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#37 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#38 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#50 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#65 oddly portable machines http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#5 TF-1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#35 What level of computer is needed for a computer to Love? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#44 WHAT IS A MAINFRAME??? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#61 TF-1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#69 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#75 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#76 Is a VAX a mainframe? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#83 Is a VAX a mainframe? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#57 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#58 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#43 Reason Japanese cars are assembled in the US (was Re: American bigotry) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#11 360/370 instruction cycle time http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#28 Could CDR-coding be on the way back? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#29 Could CDR-coding be on the way back? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#62 California DMV http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#63 Are the L1 and L2 caches flushed on a page fault ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#28 So long, comp.arch http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#37 John Mashey's greatest hits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#39 John Mashey's greatest hits http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#56 Why SMP at all anymore? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#83 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#1 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#3 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#6 OS/360 (was LINUS for S/390) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#54 VM & VSE news http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#55 VM & VSE news http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#33 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#2 Alpha: an invitation to communicate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001h.html#44 Wired News :The Grid: The Next-Gen Internet? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#13 GETMAIN R/RU (was: An IEABRC Adventure) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#34 IBM OS Timeline? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#3 YKYGOW... http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#13 Parity - why even or odd (was Re: Load Locked (was: IA64 running out of steam)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#14 Parity - why even or odd (was Re: Load Locked (was: IA64 running out of steam)) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#20 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#4 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#7 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#8 Minimalist design (was Re: Parity - why even or odd) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#73 Expanded Storage? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#14 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#24 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#32 mainframe question http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#39 195 was: Computer Typesetting Was: Movies with source code http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#58 Certificate Authentication Issues in IE and Verisign http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#79 a.f.c history checkup... (was What specifications will the standard year 2001 PC have?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#11 The demise of compaq http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#36 a.f.c history checkup... (was What specifications will the standard year 2001 PC have?) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#48 Microcode? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#2 Microcode? (& index searching) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#3 Microcode? (& index searching) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#32 First DESKTOP Unix Box? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#40 using >=4GB of memory on a 32-bit processor -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 4 Mar 2002 19:13:08 GMT Organization: Red Hat Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: devserv.devel.redhat.com X-Trace: cronkite.cygnus.com 1015269188 26592 172.16.58.1 (4 Mar 2002 19:13:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 19:13:08 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103059 On 04 Mar 2002 09:55:49 -0500, Luis Fernandes wrote: > This is going to sound like a silly question, but how did mainframes > fare when the power was cut in the middle of its operation? Did the > OS boot OK when the power came back on and did it just continue > running where it left off (it had core mem, right)? > > Did mainframes ever need UPS'? I never operated an original IBM box. Soviet clones were notorious for not working right after a power cycle because of thermal and transient issues. For instance, ES-1045 (a 370/xxx - about 5 mips or so) featured a prominent "emergency power off" handle on its panel, which looked as a car engine valve sticking out from the top right corner. Pulling it interrupted power to whole machine. Restoring power usually took a week, because at first the box had to be warmed up to the right temperature, then circuits that failed during the shutdown had to be diagnosed and replaced. The 1045 was TTL based and air cooled. Liquid cooled ECL models fared not much better though. Hungarians produced a decent clone of a French mini Thomson/Bull Mitra-15, with 64KB core memory and 800KB fixed head disk (255 magnetic heads). Pulling power on it worked fine, it would restart right off. The OS had to have some support for it thouhgh. Hardware saved all registers into the core on the power failure, but the interrupt code stopped the CPU is a special I/O instruction, to prevent it running amok when power deteriorated. On restart, software received control in an interrupt and had to return from it in a "normal" way. The technical side of Mitra-15 had nothing with the mainframe topic of this thread, but there was some mainframe content. Sneaky Videoton people marketed it as a "member" of the "ES family" under the "ES-1010" model number. Apparently, that allowed them to get money from Soviets in some cunning way. -- Pete ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:36:06 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c83db5e$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.30a/30 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103110 In , on 03/04/02 at 05:33 PM, Anne & Lynn Wheeler said: >After that, things still continued on the seven year cycle ... but there >were two teams, working in parallel producing products offset. The 3081 >was the "158" team ... the 3090 was the "168" team. Lynn, I think you have that backwards, to the extent that there were still 158 and 168 teams in that timeframe. Remember that FS and the 303x caused a great deal of team realignment. The project mgr for the 158 ended up on 3090 and ISTR that the 3081 had a lot of 168/3033 folks. -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change. ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <3c83db5e$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 20:43:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.156.38.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015274628 64.156.38.76 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:43:48 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:43:48 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:43:41 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103094 jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) writes: > Lynn, I think you have that backwards, to the extent that there were still > 158 and 168 teams in that timeframe. Remember that FS and the 303x caused > a great deal of team realignment. The project mgr for the 158 ended up on > 3090 and ISTR that the 3081 had a lot of 168/3033 folks. sorry, brain check ... i believe you've corrected me on that in the past. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 05:26:22 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs / Lucent Technologies Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3C8456FE.F1F93C2C@bell-labs.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 135.104.65.78 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103053 Luis Fernandes wrote: > > This is going to sound like a silly question, but how did mainframes > fare when the power was cut in the middle of its operation? Did the > OS boot OK when the power came back on and did it just continue > running where it left off (it had core mem, right)? > > Did mainframes ever need UPS'? Others have answered about logical consistency and restarting. There are other issues. One story before even my time that the big vacuum-tube machines like the IBM 704 and 709 tended to break badly if the cooling system failed at the same time as the logic power failed--they needed at least a few minutes to do the power cycle. There is another story, heard from a Cray employee and a bit closer to contemporary, about a Cray 1 whose Freon cooling system failed and the temperature sensor wasn't working. Reportedly quite a few chips unsoldered themselves from their boards; the machine melted. Dennis ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C8456FE.F1F93C2C@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 26 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 06:20:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.156.36.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015309242 64.156.36.128 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:20:42 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:20:42 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:20:34 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103096 Dennis Ritchie writes: > There is another story, heard from a Cray employee and a bit > closer to contemporary, about a Cray 1 whose Freon cooling system > failed and the temperature sensor wasn't working. Reportedly > quite a few chips unsoldered themselves from their boards; the > machine melted. there was mainframe TCM machine that had internal coolant, heat exchange and external fluid coolent ... with a thermal sensor. There was interruption in the external fluid flow ... which started temperature rise and tripped the thermal ... but there wasn't enuf mass in the internal coolant to contain the heat before TCMs fried (and had to be replaced). after that, flow sensors were installed on the external cooling system. random tcm refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#36 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#38 How to learn assembler language for OS/390 ? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#4 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#7 hot chips and nuclear reactors http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#3 Microcode? (& index searching) -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Michael J. Albanese" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 07:59:28 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020218 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103117 > Which brings up another question, WHY are the original Altairs going for so > much on Ebay? Don't people remember they were crap? There were many machines > that were MUCH better than the original Altairs back then. And Altair wasn't > even the first home computer, so don't give that as a reason. :) Perhaps due to its coverage in Popular Electronics. Altair wasn't first or the best, but I think it was the first to get big coverage in a mainstream magazine readily available at news stands. That, along with the attractive, modern case design (with blinkenlights!), caught the public's eye. The Altair achieved a kind of pop icon status. I can still remember looking at the instruction set and thinking, "this thing has segments, like using base registers on an IBM 370!" It seemed like a real computer -- not a toy or a mess of boards and wires strung together. The MITS name had some allure, too -- any company called Micro Instrumentation Telemetry Systems surely must know what they're doing. Heck, they're probably selling these to the space program! And so I sent my hard-earned money off to Ed, only later to discover just how lousy I was at soldering and making all those connectors fit. But it certainly fired up the imagination, at least until that "other" computer came along. The TRS-80 :-) I do wish I had saved that Altair front panel, at least. It would have made a nice conversation piece hanging on the wall somewhere. Should have kept the TRS-80, too -- with that plastic case, it was great for jamming the neighbor's TV after they let their dog bark outside all evening. Mike -- (remove 'revoke-my-' from address for email) ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:25:33 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C8456FE.F1F93C2C@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1015338333 17841 128.29.114.13 (5 Mar 2002 14:25:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:25:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103112 Dennis Ritchie writes: >There is another story, heard from a Cray employee and a bit >closer to contemporary, about a Cray 1 whose Freon cooling system >failed and the temperature sensor wasn't working. Reportedly >quite a few chips unsoldered themselves from their boards; the >machine melted. There's a similar story that I've never confirmed (Lynn?) that during factory testing of a BOM for a 360/91 (aka "IBM's Solid State Sprinkler System") two different teams were working on the module. One of them was (repairing?) the overtemperature sensors; the other team, unaware of the inoperative sensors, decided to test them by turning off the coolant. The obvious failure mode occured. As usual, I can't confirm that this is anything more than an UL, but it's certainly not impossible (and makes a good story in any case). Joe Morris ###### Message-ID: <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:51:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.181.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1015339912 12.90.181.213 (Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:51:52 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:51:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103041 "Michael J. Albanese" wrote: > ... snip ... > > public's eye. The Altair achieved a kind of pop icon status. > > I can still remember looking at the instruction set and thinking, "this > thing has segments, like using base registers on an IBM 370!" It seemed > like a real computer -- not a toy or a mess of boards and wires strung The Altair, faults and all, was based on the 8080, which was a very modern system in that it is totally unsegmented. One nice flat expansive address space. Filling it with real live memory was almost unthinkable. About $5 to $20 for a 1K x 1 2102 !! (you didn't really want to mess with dynamic memory - notoriously unreliable, and all those complications from refresh circuitry). So a full memory would cost you about $12,000. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Sam Seiber Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 10:56:28 -0700 Organization: Change .com to .net Message-ID: <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103046 CBFalconer wrote: > The Altair, faults and all, was based on the 8080, which was a > very modern system in that it is totally unsegmented. One nice > flat expansive address space. Filling it with real live memory > was almost unthinkable. About $5 to $20 for a 1K x 1 2102 !! (you > didn't really want to mess with dynamic memory - notoriously > unreliable, and all those complications from refresh circuitry). > So a full memory would cost you about $12,000. IIRC, you are not going to get 64k of 2102's to fit in one box. Also, you are going to have to beef up the power supply to power all of those chips. Ahh, the good old days, when 8k was a lot! Sam ###### From: "Bevis" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:15:32 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-Nj8sIcxVyYEsbZ0W7dak6HBBbMHJEBYvcIljAOM9tuAy+KXLYJWX2PdMX01dNML4QEdTMyw7ZhmeuhM!kEOuKFivzN/kWvztgD8t5SML7RLNn8KH5j1WTarMJJ+i1RX3JJJ77HPTR6+FSWL/JlDkuuZv+Vss!Og== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:15:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103042 I just checked Byte Magazine Vol. 1 Issue 1 and the MITS ad had 1024 byte memory boards listed for $139 and 4096 byte boards for $339. Except, of course, the ad called them 1024 WORD and 4096 WORD memory boards. :) "CBFalconer" wrote in message news:3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com... > "Michael J. Albanese" wrote: > > > ... snip ... > > > > public's eye. The Altair achieved a kind of pop icon status. > > > > I can still remember looking at the instruction set and thinking, "this > > thing has segments, like using base registers on an IBM 370!" It seemed > > like a real computer -- not a toy or a mess of boards and wires strung > > The Altair, faults and all, was based on the 8080, which was a > very modern system in that it is totally unsegmented. One nice > flat expansive address space. Filling it with real live memory > was almost unthinkable. About $5 to $20 for a 1K x 1 2102 !! (you > didn't really want to mess with dynamic memory - notoriously > unreliable, and all those complications from refresh circuitry). > So a full memory would cost you about $12,000. > > -- > Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) > Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. > (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) > mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) > > ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:21:07 -0600 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1015356539 2757 160.94.124.25 (5 Mar 2002 19:28:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103063 "Bevis" wrote in message news:oP8h8.333699$eS3.25479823@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > I just checked Byte Magazine Vol. 1 Issue 1 and the MITS ad had 1024 byte > memory boards listed for $139 and 4096 byte boards for $339. Except, of > course, the ad called them 1024 WORD and 4096 WORD memory boards. :) Ah, that's nothing. Around that same year our PDP-8 got a memory upgrade at a huge discount from the OEM price: 8K of core from Plessey for only $3000. That was 8192 x 12 bits. Really cheap for in dem days. ###### Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 23:22:27 +0100 From: Arndt Oevermann Subject: More PDP-1 music, now Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Comment-To: (Nick Spalding) Organization: CCS-BASE BBS - 08801 - 2453 (ISDN oder Analog) Lines: 22 X-Gateway: FIDO mail2.stoeni.de [FIDOGATE 4.3.5] X-FTN-Domain: Z2@FidoNet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.174.75.178!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.stoeni.de!p1.stoeni.de!stoeni.de!ccs.stoeni.de!fidogate!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103142 Hi Nick, NS> "The theremin, a compact apparatus NS> invented by the Russian physicist NS> Leon Theremin, was fashionable in the NS> late 1920s and 1930s, although NS> it could play only a single melodic line." NS> NS> and Grolier is more specific: NS> NS> "The theremin, one of the first successful electronic musical NS> instruments, was invented about 1924 by the Russian Leon Theremin." The surf band "The Beach Boys" has use a Theremin in his song "Vibrations". Gut Goan Arndt ... No Keyboard found, Press F1 to RESUME ___ QWKRR128 V5.10 [R] ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: 02 Mar 2002 20:39:24 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 9 Message-ID: <1bhenymiab.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1015126762 28867 128.123.64.113 (3 Mar 2002 03:39:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Mar 2002 03:39:22 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103067 Arndt Oevermann writes: It was also used for the soundtrack of ``Forbidden Planet'' and in the original Star Trek theme song. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3C82DB49.F44001C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now References: <1bhenymiab.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1015201577 12.237.69.87 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:26:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:26:17 GMT Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:26:17 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103162 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > Arndt Oevermann writes: > > It was also used for the soundtrack of ``Forbidden Planet'' and in the > original Star Trek theme song. > And how many old "B" movie sci-fi flicks used a theramin??? I would think that the theramin would be *required* for such a movie...to provide an errie, other-worldly, "we'll never understand what horror is going on" type sound... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C8309C9.C6B58166@bigvalley.net> Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 21:44:42 -0800 From: Larry Anderson Reply-To: foxnhare@bigvalley.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now References: <1bhenymiab.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C82DB49.F44001C@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 X-Abuse-Report: Send abuse reports to abuse@nntpserver.com Organization: http://www.1Usenet.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!news.1usenet.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103055 I can remember it in "the day the earth stood still..." -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Set your 8-bit C= rigs to sail for http://www.portcommodore.com/ 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:09:21 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 21 Message-ID: <20020304080921.49cdbd26.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1bhenymiab.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C82DB49.F44001C@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2824.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1015264805 36138 194.134.219.17 (4 Mar 2002 18:00:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:00:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103138 On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:26:17 GMT Charles Richmond wrote: CR> Joe Pfeiffer wrote: CR> > CR> > Arndt Oevermann writes: CR> > CR> > It was also used for the soundtrack of ``Forbidden Planet'' and in the CR> > original Star Trek theme song. CR> > CR> And how many old "B" movie sci-fi flicks used a theramin??? I CR> would think that the theramin would be *required* for such a How much theramin music appeared not associated with bad science fiction ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 10:30:33 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <1bhenymiab.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C82DB49.F44001C@ev1.net> <20020304080921.49cdbd26.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: il0502a-dhcp188.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1015266628 16101 17.205.24.188 (4 Mar 2002 18:30:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Mar 2002 18:30:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!il0502a-dhcp188.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103146 In article <20020304080921.49cdbd26.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > How much theramin music appeared not associated with bad science > fiction ? Samuel Hoffman's performances are worth searching out. BTW, why the past tense? I know of several rock bands using them. One of them is crazy enough to have it as a lead instrument (Billy Joe Winghead) ###### From: "Hank Oredson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <2mPg8.14596$106.1100455@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:50:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.81.203.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1015267838 12.81.203.25 (Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:50:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:50:38 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!prairie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!204.127.161.4!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103088 "Arndt Oevermann" wrote in message news:MSGID_2=3A2480=2F3504.0_1fa7c734@fidonet.org... > Hi Nick, > > NS> "The theremin, a compact apparatus > NS> invented by the Russian physicist > NS> Leon Theremin, was fashionable in the > NS> late 1920s and 1930s, although > NS> it could play only a single melodic line." > NS> > NS> and Grolier is more specific: > NS> > NS> "The theremin, one of the first successful electronic musical > NS> instruments, was invented about 1924 by the Russian Leon Theremin." > > The surf band "The Beach Boys" has use a Theremin in his song > "Vibrations". Probably the "canonical theremin compostion" was the music for the movie "Spellbound". Have the LP of concerto. -- ... Hank http://horedson.home.att.net ###### Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:31:31 +0100 From: Arndt Oevermann Subject: More PDP-1 music, now Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers X-Comment-To: (Joe Pfeiffer) Organization: CCS-BASE BBS - 08801 - 2453 (ISDN oder Analog) Lines: 14 X-Gateway: FIDO mail2.stoeni.de [FIDOGATE 4.3.5] X-FTN-Domain: Z2@FidoNet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!news.stoeni.de!p1.stoeni.de!stoeni.de!ccs.stoeni.de!fidogate!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103152 Hi Joe, JP> It was also used for the soundtrack of JP> ``Forbidden Planet'' and in the JP> original Star Trek theme song. JP> -- Where can I find more Infos about the Theremin? Gut Goan Arndt ... No Keyboard found, Press F1 to RESUME ___ QWKRR128 V5.10 [R] ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:00:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <1bhenymiab.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu><3C82DB49.F44001C@ev1.net> <20020304080921.49cdbd26.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-191-208.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1015279242 22884 213.122.191.208 (4 Mar 2002 22:00:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:00:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103140 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20020304080921.49cdbd26.steveo@eircom.net... > On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:26:17 GMT > Charles Richmond wrote: > > CR> Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > CR> > > CR> > Arndt Oevermann writes: > CR> > > CR> > It was also used for the soundtrack of ``Forbidden Planet'' and in the > CR> > original Star Trek theme song. > CR> > > CR> And how many old "B" movie sci-fi flicks used a theramin??? I > CR> would think that the theramin would be *required* for such a > > How much theramin music appeared not associated with bad science > fiction ? Does Hawkwind count ? :) Two fairly successful near contemporaries, plenty more out there : Portishead Spiritualised Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:07:32 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 10 Message-ID: <1bn0xnlvwb.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1015286850 5443 128.123.64.113 (5 Mar 2002 00:07:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Mar 2002 00:07:30 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103065 Arndt Oevermann writes: > Where can I find more Infos about the Theremin? Googling ``theremin'' turns up http://www.thereminworld.com/ -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: 04 Mar 2002 17:16:58 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 10 Message-ID: <1belizlvgl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1015287416 5443 128.123.64.113 (5 Mar 2002 00:16:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Mar 2002 00:16:56 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103075 Arndt Oevermann writes: > Where can I find more Infos about the Theremin? Oh, this is too cool -- http://users.ev1.net/~bantha/palm/index.html turns out to have a Theremin simulation that runs on a Palm Pilot! -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:19:01 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 21 Message-ID: <20020305081901.53f26da1.steveo@eircom.net> References: <1bhenymiab.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C82DB49.F44001C@ev1.net> <20020304080921.49cdbd26.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1288.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1015347312 63185 194.134.213.14 (5 Mar 2002 16:55:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:55:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-x2.support.nl!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103130 On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:00:42 +0000 (UTC) "Rupert Pigott" wrote: RP> > How much theramin music appeared not associated with bad science RP> > fiction ? RP> RP> Does Hawkwind count ? :) Hmm, Hawkwind - Roger Zelazny .. OK not *bad* science fiction :) RP> Two fairly successful near contemporaries, plenty more out there : RP> Portishead RP> Spiritualised Looks like I've been failing to spot the beastie about, thanks all. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "John Carlyle-Clarke" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:55:58 +0000 Organization: Europlacer Message-ID: References: <20020304080921.49cdbd26.steveo@eircom.net> User-Agent: Xnews/L5 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!pc69.comconnect!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103174 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in news:a60qq3$mb4$1@knossos.btinternet.com: >> >> How much theramin music appeared not associated with bad science >> fiction ? > > Does Hawkwind count ? :) > > Two fairly successful near contemporaries, plenty more out there : > Portishead > Spiritualised > Mercury Rev use it a lot. Also Broadcast. Led Zeppelin used it in "Whole Lotta Love", esp. the live version on "Song Remains the Same". It also appears on Badly Drawn Boy album "Hour of the Bewilderbeast", which won a Mercury prize. There's a lot of it about, you know :) -- Zaphod's just this guy, you know? ###### From: eijkhout@cs.utk.edu (Victor Eijkhout) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: More PDP-1 music, now Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:24:33 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <1f8kqk1.3fi45jfqfmb0N%eijkhout@cs.utk.edu> References: <1belizlvgl.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-984.newsdawg.com User-Agent: MacSOUP/2.4.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!eijkhout Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103164 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > Arndt Oevermann writes: > > Where can I find more Infos about the Theremin? > > Oh, this is too cool -- http://users.ev1.net/~bantha/palm/index.html > turns out to have a Theremin simulation that runs on a Palm Pilot! My favourite is the Virtual Theremin: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/playground/theremin1.shtml V. ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:14:47 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4b129cbbdfdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.27) Organization: None MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: userag26.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1015359491 news.dial.pipex.com 234 62.188.132.112 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.esat.net!newsfeed.online.be!195.129.110.18.MISMATCH!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed02.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103249 In article , Bevis wrote: > I just checked Byte Magazine Vol. 1 Issue 1 and the MITS ad had 1024 byte > memory boards listed for $139 and 4096 byte boards for $339. Except, of > course, the ad called them 1024 WORD and 4096 WORD memory boards. :) And I bet they just changed the '$' into a '£' for the UK prices. This was at a time when 1 GBP = 2.4 USD. Dave Daniels ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:28:26 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 23 Message-ID: <20020305212826.328444ba.steveo@eircom.net> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1378.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1015361441 24316 194.134.213.104 (5 Mar 2002 20:50:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:50:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103237 On Tue, 05 Mar 2002 10:56:28 -0700 Sam Seiber wrote: SS> CBFalconer wrote: SS> > So a full memory would cost you about $12,000. SS> SS> IIRC, you are not going to get 64k of 2102's to fit in one box. It's only 512 chips (plus address decoders, buffers and whatnot), eight double eurocards (or S100 cards) should hold it, ten would do it easily. SS> Also, you are going to have to beef up the power supply to power SS> all of those chips. Ahh, the good old days, when 8k was a lot! Oh yes - you will want one of those fancy switch mode PSUs for that. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 5 Mar 2002 20:43:14 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: seniti.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103220 "Michael J. Albanese" writes: >> Which brings up another question, WHY are the original Altairs going for so >> much on Ebay? Don't people remember they were crap? There were many machines >> that were MUCH better than the original Altairs back then. And Altair wasn't >> even the first home computer, so don't give that as a reason. :) >Perhaps due to its coverage in Popular Electronics. Altair wasn't first >or the best, but I think it was the first to get big coverage in a >mainstream magazine readily available at news stands. That, along with >the attractive, modern case design (with blinkenlights!), caught the >public's eye. The Altair achieved a kind of pop icon status. As I remember it, the Altair came just after Radio-Electronic published an 8008 based machine. The difference between the 8008 and 8080 was just enough to make the difference between a controller and a real computer. I sent for the PC board diagrams, but I couldn't afford more. >I can still remember looking at the instruction set and thinking, "this >thing has segments, like using base registers on an IBM 370!" It seemed >like a real computer -- not a toy or a mess of boards and wires strung >together. The MITS name had some allure, too -- any company called >Micro Instrumentation Telemetry Systems surely must know what they're >doing. Heck, they're probably selling these to the space program! As I remember the story, a previous project was a radio transmitter for Estes model rockets. I never bought one, but I do remember it in the Estes catalog. That was the telemetry system. Though not long before they had an electronic desk calculator kit. Some companies wouldn't buy pocket calculators because they disappeared too fast, but desk calculators were fine. I got to build the kit for my father. A fair number of small IC's, and a few really big ones. -- glen ###### From: "Bevis" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <4b129cbbdfdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <5fah8.335136$eS3.25552745@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:53:21 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-UnUrdMN8Md23UDpqPhEvTLRNW1042muoL5lVATyiRfEZWkQeBIr2R82ypbW9dqI1/Xlf3s5zEwqZ1u3!mvAKiSF79xlvVvQg78CIKwAMODuaLaa+YosRdaRr8VEFMvGS07H5SqfKbml68xKyjWUZDqwpMrRv!Zg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:53:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103186 That does sound about right. I can remember thinking back then how badly you were getting screwed costwise. I was living in Peterborough when the GBP went from 2.8 to 2.4 USD, but getting paid in USD. That was probably the best pay raise I ever got! :) "Dave Daniels" wrote in message news:4b129cbbdfdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk... > In article , > Bevis wrote: > > I just checked Byte Magazine Vol. 1 Issue 1 and the MITS ad had 1024 byte > > memory boards listed for $139 and 4096 byte boards for $339. Except, of > > course, the ad called them 1024 WORD and 4096 WORD memory boards. :) > > And I bet they just changed the '$' into a '£' for the UK prices. > This was at a time when 1 GBP = 2.4 USD. > > Dave Daniels > > > ###### From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 5 Mar 2002 21:24:52 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: seniti.ugcs.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gah Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103218 CBFalconer writes: >"Michael J. Albanese" wrote: >> >... snip ... >> >> public's eye. The Altair achieved a kind of pop icon status. >> >> I can still remember looking at the instruction set and thinking, "this >> thing has segments, like using base registers on an IBM 370!" It seemed >> like a real computer -- not a toy or a mess of boards and wires strung >The Altair, faults and all, was based on the 8080, which was a >very modern system in that it is totally unsegmented. One nice >flat expansive address space. Filling it with real live memory >was almost unthinkable. About $5 to $20 for a 1K x 1 2102 !! (you >didn't really want to mess with dynamic memory - notoriously >unreliable, and all those complications from refresh circuitry). >So a full memory would cost you about $12,000. I had a summer job in 1977 working with an Altair with 64K of dynamic RAM and running a multi-tasking OS. It had two keyboards and two display screens, so it could be, and usually was, used as two termanals for a mainframe system. It could also run BASIC at the same time. The DRAM was on four boards connected through its own bus to one S100 board, so only one slot was used for it. I was working on this next to someone building a VGT, Video Graphics Terminal, also 8080 based. In text mode, it had smooth scrolling with a big aluminum wheel on the side. You could quickly scroll back using that wheel. It also had a bit-map graphics mode. It might have had 32K of DRAM, in unmarked DIP packages. In text mode it could use either a ROM or RAM based character generator. A small (one line of hex) 8080 program would load from ROM, and write into RAM the bits left-right reversed, and then switch to the RAM character generator. This could be done while someone was using it. See: http://www.slac.stanford.edu/pubs/slacpubs/1000/slac-pub-1715.html -- glen ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:30:01 EST Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - "ReInventing The UseNet" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:35:02 -0800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103275 "Sam Seiber" wrote in message news:3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com... > > IIRC, you are not going to get 64k of 2102's to fit in one box. > Also, you are going to have to beef up the power supply to power > all of those chips. Ahh, the good old days, when 8k was a lot! > From first hand experience I can assure you that it IS possible to run 64K of 2102's in an IMSAI S-100 (with the big 25A @8vdc power supply) but not in the Altair with the tiny power supply. However, the IMSAI had to run with the top off (weren't most IMSAIs run like that?) and a 14" fan for cooling. Eight boards containing 8K each, and not the 21L02's either. Jack Peacock ###### From: Sam Seiber Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 15:04:56 -0700 Organization: Change .com to .net Message-ID: <3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103287 Jack Peacock wrote: > > "Sam Seiber" wrote in message > news:3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com... > > > > IIRC, you are not going to get 64k of 2102's to fit in one box. > > Also, you are going to have to beef up the power supply to power > > all of those chips. Ahh, the good old days, when 8k was a lot! > > > From first hand experience I can assure you that it IS possible to run 64K > of 2102's in an IMSAI S-100 (with the big 25A @8vdc power supply) but not in > the Altair with the tiny power supply. However, the IMSAI had to run with > the top off (weren't most IMSAIs run like that?) Altairs & IMSAIs came with tops? Hmm, I must have lost mine the day I opened the box. To this day, I am not much for running a machine with the "cloths" on. > and a 14" fan for cooling. > Eight boards containing 8K each, and not the 21L02's either. > Jack Peacock When I wrote the message I miss-remembered the 2102's. I was recalling the larger 1k chips used on the Altair 1k static card. I think they were 20 pin chips. They were kind of a weird size. Sam ###### From: "Jack Peacock" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> <3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:08:15 EST Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - "ReInventing The UseNet" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:13:15 -0800 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeeds-atl2!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103284 "Sam Seiber" wrote in message news:3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com... > When I wrote the message I miss-remembered the 2102's. I was recalling > the larger 1k chips used on the Altair 1k static card. I think they > were > 20 pin chips. They were kind of a weird size. > Those were 2101s, 256x4 in an odd 400mil 22 pin footprint. Nice for small controllers with minimal memory but not the best for big micro iron. Intel sold a small cheap single board 8080 controller (SDK-80 ?) with a sorta VME bus connector on it, great for controller projects, which used the 2101s in pairs for 256 to 1K RAM size. And if "iron" ever was a literal fit it was with the IMSAIs...a whole lot of iron in the transformer compared to total system weight. Altairs shipped with, hhmmm, I think about a 6 amp 8v supply until the retrofits and the B model came out. IMSAIs came with a monster supply that really could run 20 cards, the deciding factor when I blew 2 months salary on a computer way back in '77. These days it only has 6 cards total and runs much cooler with the 2102s replaced by 256k DRAMs. Jack Peacock ###### From: "George R. Gonzalez" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:31:20 -0600 Organization: University of Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> <3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com> X-Trace: laurel.tc.umn.edu 1015519034 12045 160.94.124.25 (7 Mar 2002 16:37:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@laurel.tc.umn.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!hardy.tc.umn.edu!laurel.tc.umn.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103313 Ahh, 2102's, the memories.... Back around 197x I bought a "TV Typewriter 2" kit. This was a minimal CRT terminal, designed by Don Lancaster,an amazing hardware guru of the minimalist persuasion. The basic TVT gave you 16 lines of 32 characters, upper case, no scrolling, no eol clearing. The character memory was six 2102's. But soon people figured out you could piggyback on some more memory chips, a lower-case character generator ROM, double-time the counters, and insert an adder chip. With these mods you ended up with 16-lines, 64 characters, upper/lower case, and scrolling. It just barely worked at this 2x speed-- if you tried to squeeze the characters any closer together, (by turning up the analog dot-clock) they turned to random snowflakes. Anyway I recall STARING at this 2102 chip. It was the first memory chip bigger than 64 bits that I'd ever seen. I couldnt BELIEVE there were a whopping 1,024 bits in there! And for only $6 a chip! ( Now we grumble when memory prices go above $1/ megabyte ) ###### From: "Bevis" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> <3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <_iPh8.363469$eS3.27525147@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 13:36:26 CST Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-1WjEUsqyRsW4gKjCxkdz0tn6WIcfZ47Nc/9HEwaRDzmYjvewpXgwvYd5JzZzMZPGEP/edVFmtFsbktr!Gu3KAPH5p+JxHSg/hD03SHElL81QPUTCeJ7XlnvaC9w9UQiBNthMwUmfkOhH6Lj9zDwxI1MBjYSI!jA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 19:36:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103353 "George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message news:a684vp$bod$1@laurel.tc.umn.edu... > Ahh, 2102's, the memories.... > > Back around 197x I bought a "TV Typewriter 2" kit. > This was a minimal CRT terminal, designed by Don Lancaster,an amazing > hardware guru of the minimalist persuasion. The basic TVT gave you 16 lines > of 32 characters, > upper case, no scrolling, no eol clearing. The character memory was six > 2102's. > Hate to disappoint you, but Don did NOT have anything to do with the TVT-II. At least he made that PERFECTLY clear to me once when I asked him about it. He did design the TVT-I, but it was completely different from the TVT-II. Yes, I once had a TVT-II and did all the mods you mentioned to it. Also a bunch of other SWTPc hardware. I still have a couple of [working] SWTPc computers...a 6800 and a 6809. I was saddened to hear that Dan Meyer died not long ago. [Dan was the founder of SWTPc.] Incidentally, there is a bunch of documentation for sale on eBay at the moment for "only" $250 !!! Poor guy, all anyone has to do is go to http://www.swtpc.com to download almost all documentation for anything SWTPc for free. :) Michael Holley [the guy behind swtpc.com] has almost completed the section on the TVT-II, better known as the CT-1024. Have a look. :) Bevis ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: William Robison Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home X-Nntp-Posting-Host: flip.physics.uiowa.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <3C87D20F.8D25F69B@uiowa.edu.com> Sender: news@sysadm.physics.uiowa.edu (News Administrator) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: University of Iowa X-Accept-Language: en References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> <3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:48:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) Lines: 37 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103372 "George R. Gonzalez" wrote: > > Ahh, 2102's, the memories.... > > Back around 197x I bought a "TV Typewriter 2" kit. > This was a minimal CRT terminal, designed by Don Lancaster,an amazing > hardware guru of the minimalist persuasion. The basic TVT gave you 16 lines > of 32 characters, > upper case, no scrolling, no eol clearing. The character memory was six > 2102's. > > But soon people figured out you could piggyback on > some more memory chips, a lower-case character generator ROM, double-time > the counters, and insert an adder chip. With these mods you ended up with > 16-lines, 64 characters, upper/lower case, and scrolling. It just barely > worked at this 2x speed-- if you tried to squeeze the characters any closer > together, (by turning up the analog dot-clock) they turned to random > snowflakes. > > Anyway I recall STARING at this 2102 chip. It was the first memory chip > bigger than 64 bits that I'd ever seen. I couldnt BELIEVE there were a > whopping 1,024 bits in there! And for only $6 a chip! > > ( Now we grumble when memory prices go above $1/ megabyte ) Heck, we grumble when it hits $0.20/MB... (And I remember when we had 16KW installed in the 418-III to bring it up to 64KW...) Lynn was talking of rearranging syslib into an optimal order... We occasionally did that on the Univac, but it involved re-arranging the boot tape) -Willy ###### From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 03:04:40 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> <3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com> Reply-To: jmaynard@conmicro.cx User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.249.90.70!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!jmaynard Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103363 On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:13:15 -0800, Jack Peacock wrote: >And if "iron" ever was a literal fit it was with the IMSAIs...a whole lot of >iron in the transformer compared to total system weight. Altairs shipped >with, hhmmm, I think about a 6 amp 8v supply until the retrofits and the B >model came out. IMSAIs came with a monster supply that really could run 20 >cards, the deciding factor when I blew 2 months salary on a computer way >back in '77. These days it only has 6 cards total and runs much cooler with >the 2102s replaced by 256k DRAMs. I still have my S-100 box...built on an IMSAI frame (but with a blank front panel; at the time, I hated the IMSAI front panel...now I wish I had one, even if you did have to keep feeding it 7407(?)s), with an Ithaca Audio 2 MHz Z-80, a Tarbell SD disk controller, a TEI I/O board, a Hayes Smartmodem 100, and 11 memory boards (4 8K, and 7 4K, all 2102s; I think I have the largest running collection of 2102 RAM in captivity (480 of them!)). Oh, and a homebrew 2716 ROM board to hold the Zapple monitor, hacked to make the K command do a boot from the Tarbell. The two SA801Rs are in a separate chassis, also by TEI. I tried replacing the RAM with a single board with whatever those 2716-compatible static RAMs were, but I couldn't ever get it to run right with the Ithaca Audio processor. ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:38:01 -0500 Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1015623482 204.250.0.238 (8 Mar 2002 16:38:02 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103454 "Michael J. Albanese" wrote in message news:3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net... > > I can still remember looking at the instruction set and thinking, "this > thing has segments, like using base registers on an IBM 370!" It seemed > like a real computer -- not a toy or a mess of boards and wires strung > together. The MITS name had some allure, too -- any company called > Micro Instrumentation Telemetry Systems surely must know what they're > doing. Heck, they're probably selling these to the space program! I don't mean to be rude or impertinent, but I think your memory is faulty... the 8080 used by the Altair did *not* have segments... You *could* index into its 64k memory space using register pair H & L (together you referred to them as 'M'). The segments came in the 8086/8088; and there were two competing design teams at Intel,. one which wanted to create a truly modern chip based on the Multics architecture, and another that wanted the compatability with the 8080. So what we got was a camel (i.e. horse designed by comiittee) when there wasn't a desert in sight. And both teams lost; the segmentation model was broken and the ring bits needed to be placed elsewhere; the overhead was terrible. And the only compatibility with the 8080 ended up coming in the form of relatively-easy source-code translation. Regards, -doug quebbeman ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:41:41 -0500 Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c893016$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1015623702 204.250.0.238 (8 Mar 2002 16:41:42 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103452 "glen herrmannsfeldt" wrote in message news:a63al2$qke@gap.cco.caltech.edu... > >I can still remember looking at the instruction set and thinking, "this > >thing has segments, like using base registers on an IBM 370!" It seemed > >like a real computer -- not a toy or a mess of boards and wires strung > >together. The MITS name had some allure, too -- any company called > >Micro Instrumentation Telemetry Systems surely must know what they're > >doing. Heck, they're probably selling these to the space program! > > As I remember the story, a previous project was a radio > transmitter for Estes model rockets. I never bought one, but I > do remember it in the Estes catalog. That was the telemetry system. I recall this from an issue of Model Rocketry; I also though they were the ones that sold the tiny single-shot camera you could put in the payload section of something like the Big Bertha... -dq ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 08 Mar 02 15:11:33 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 65 Message-ID: <3563.832T1680T9115433@sky.bus.com> References: <3C84DB9B.D7ED7DCA@yahoo.com> <3C8506CC.16D2@earthlink.com> <3C869288.65A5@earthlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-796.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103479 In article jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard) writes: >I still have my S-100 box...built on an IMSAI frame (but with a blank >front panel; at the time, I hated the IMSAI front panel...now I wish >I had one, even if you did have to keep feeding it 7407(?)s), with >an Ithaca Audio 2 MHz Z-80, a Tarbell SD disk controller, a TEI I/O >board, a Hayes Smartmodem 100, and 11 memory boards (4 8K, and 7 4K, >all 2102s; I think I have the largest running collection of 2102 RAM >in captivity (480 of them!)). Oh, and a homebrew 2716 ROM board to >hold the Zapple monitor, hacked to make the K command do a boot from >the Tarbell. The two SA801Rs are in a separate chassis, also by TEI. > >I tried replacing the RAM with a single board with whatever those >2716-compatible static RAMs were, but I couldn't ever get it to run >right with the Ithaca Audio processor. Too bad. I stuck with the original MPU-A board. I had to replace its gold and ceramic 8080, though; it had blown a gate somewhere and it treated all conditional returns as unconditional. I still remember going down to the supplier and asking for a replacement chip, and seeing him come out of the back with a tube of AMD9080As. Imagine that - a tube full of CPUs! It blew my mind at the time. Anyway, I got one of those 2016 RAM boards (at least that's what some manufacturers called the 2716-compatible static RAM chip). I started out with 16K (twice the memory of the two RAM-4A boards I was running up to that point). Every Friday on my way home from work I'd stop at Heathkit and buy another chip, which made it easier to afford them at $16 a pop. So my board grew by 2K per week, until it finally topped out at 62K; the last 2K was taken up by the boot ROM in the Disk Jockey. The DJ2D was a nice board. The built-in serial port would run at 19.2k, which was a step up from the SIO boards' maximum of 9600. It could handle 128-, 256-, 512-, and 1024-byte sectors on my 8-inch (single-sided) drives. I got quite a chuckle out of the fact that the floppy drive on the mainframe at work could only go up to 512-byte sectors. I wrote a utility for the mainframe which could read CP/M disks. I found a CP/M utility called 3740UTIL, but it was too slow and clunky so I wrote my own; I could read, write, and format 3740 disks at home. This meant I could transfer files either way. But getting back to RAM boards... my 2016 board was a great improvement over those 2102-laden RAM-4As: 64K on a board instead of only 4K, and the regulator heat sinks were completely cool to the touch, unlike those on the RAM-4As. I sort of missed the LEDs that reported accesses to each 1K block on the RAM-4As, though. (I remember the sinking feeling I'd get when I saw a ripple repeatedly pass through those LEDs while I was testing a program - it meant I was in a stack loop and all of memory was wiped out.) I could no longer deposit data into memory with the new board; the IMSAI front panel depended on a kludge that was unique to the RAM-4A to manage that. But by then I was running CP/M and had enough utilities to do it through my H19 terminal (which itself was a great improvement over the cast-off Uniscope 100 that I had hacked up to work until I could afford a real async terminal). Those were the days... -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 08 Mar 2002 21:54:22 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1bzo1iqr29.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c893016$1_3@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1015649660 17157 128.123.64.113 (9 Mar 2002 04:54:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2002 04:54:20 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103483 "Douglas H. Quebbeman" writes: > > I recall this from an issue of Model Rocketry; I also though they > were the ones that sold the tiny single-shot camera you could > put in the payload section of something like the Big Bertha... Well, Estes sold their own cameras... the first one (Camroc) took a custom, round piece of film, the Cineroc had a little 8mm movie camera, and the Astrocam, which took 110 film. They actually rereleased the Astrocam a few years back... so I bought and built one... I'd forgotten just how bad 110 film is! My most recent rocket uses reloadable G motors -- and there's a very cool little digital camera called ``Pencam''... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: "Michael J. Albanese" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 09:51:40 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020307 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!64.245.249.19.MISMATCH!dfw3-feed1.news.digex.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103508 Douglas H. Quebbeman wrote: > > I don't mean to be rude or impertinent, but I think your memory > is faulty... the 8080 used by the Altair did *not* have segments... > You *could* index into its 64k memory space using register pair > H & L (together you referred to them as 'M'). Yup, memory fault. After 27 years or so, all those chips jumble together. Too bad brains don't come with ECC as an option :-) > And both teams lost; the segmentation model was broken and the > ring bits needed to be placed elsewhere; the overhead was terrible. Did they ever admit (officially) that there were problems? The 286 certainly didn't hang around long. I remember being somewhat envious of an associate who received a brand-spanking new IBM/AT. Several weeks later, it didn't matter anymore -- AT's were being used for doorstops. Mike -- (remove 'revoke-my-' from address for email) ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.23.4 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Reply-To: Nick Spalding Message-ID: <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 17:44:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.157.30 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 1015695876 193.203.157.30 (Sat, 09 Mar 2002 17:44:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 17:44:36 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103528 Michael J. Albanese wrote, in <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net>: > Did they ever admit (officially) that there were problems? The > 286 certainly didn't hang around long. I remember being somewhat > envious of an associate who received a brand-spanking new IBM/AT. > Several weeks later, it didn't matter anymore -- AT's were being > used for doorstops. Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 10:17:40 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <3C8A51C4.E56468E0@jkmicro.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Mar 9 12:12:14 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !^?f51k-X6Sh!Z(A9`87@;oc$ (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103484 Nick Spalding wrote: > > Michael J. Albanese wrote, in > <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net>: > > > Did they ever admit (officially) that there were problems? The > > 286 certainly didn't hang around long. I remember being somewhat > > envious of an associate who received a brand-spanking new IBM/AT. > > Several weeks later, it didn't matter anymore -- AT's were being > > used for doorstops. > > Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for > that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has > attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have > assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. That would have been difficult, given that the PC/AT was first introduced in 1984. What I would believe is a handbuilt PC/XT clone in '83 or so. Lots of people were doing it in the SF Bay area around then, myself included. You could buy bare printed circuit boards and solder them together yourself. Cases and power supplies from Tawain were also readily available. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 18:53:56 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.5-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103510 Nick Spalding wrote: > Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for > that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has > attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have > assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. PC was the tail-end of '81; AT would be '84. I sense bovine byproduct :) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "Irk the purists, irk the purists, it's a right good laugh." ###### Message-ID: <3C8A40B3.1C69D7A1@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 17:04:51 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: 1015711495 reader1.ash.ops.us.uu.net 1707 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!netnews.com!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!ash.uu.net!spool0900.news.uu.net!reader0901.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103546 Pete Fenelon wrote: > > Nick Spalding wrote: > > Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for > > that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has > > attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have > > assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. > > PC was the tail-end of '81; AT would be '84. I sense bovine byproduct :) Maybe the "someone in a mailing list" is Charles Lasner :-). Ob-for-those-not-reading-afu-for-the-past-decade: look up "Lasnerian" in your favorite search engine. Tim. ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 09 Mar 2002 21:29:10 GMT Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-203-24.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1015709350 news.dial.pipex.com 231 62.190.203.24 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.icl.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed02.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed03.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103537 On Sat, 09 Mar 2002 18:53:56 -0000, Pete Fenelon wrote: >Nick Spalding wrote: >> Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for >> that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has >> attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have >> assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. > >PC was the tail-end of '81; AT would be '84. I sense bovine byproduct :) Yeah...IIRC in 1980 IBM were still talking to Matsushita about a joint PC project... (My AT is '85, so quite an early one for the UK, I think) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 9 Mar 2002 21:39:41 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1015709981 9506 134.117.136.30 (9 Mar 2002 21:39:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2002 21:39:41 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103549 Pete Fenelon (pete@fenelon.com) writes: > Nick Spalding wrote: >> Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for >> that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has >> attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have >> assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. > > PC was the tail-end of '81; AT would be '84. I sense bovine byproduct :) Not at all. A few CMOS chips, some relays, et voila! ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 09 Mar 2002 15:17:45 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1015712265 27577 128.123.64.113 (9 Mar 2002 22:17:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Mar 2002 22:17:45 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103544 "Michael J. Albanese" writes: > > > And both teams lost; the segmentation model was broken and the > > ring bits needed to be placed elsewhere; the overhead was terrible. > > Did they ever admit (officially) that there were problems? The > 286 certainly didn't hang around long. I remember being somewhat > envious of an associate who received a brand-spanking new IBM/AT. > Several weeks later, it didn't matter anymore -- AT's were being > used for doorstops. The 8086 segmentation was broken; 286 had a reasonable implementation (if segmentation is ever reasonable, but that's a different issue). It wasn't able to go between 8086 and 286 modes transparently enough, so M$ never supported the segments right. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 15:12:49 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 1015715678 188 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103539 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > The 8086 segmentation was broken; 286 had a reasonable implementation > (if segmentation is ever reasonable, but that's a different issue). > It wasn't able to go between 8086 and 286 modes transparently enough, > so M$ never supported the segments right. The "segmentation" on the 8086 made no sense other than as a way to execute code written for the segmented architecture of the 80286 on a machine simplified by deleting the memory management hardware. The 8086 should have come with an application note explaining the intent of the design and outlining the future migration path, and then Microsoft engineering management should have vigorously insisted that the code was written accordingly so that it would be able to run well in the future, expanded architecture. I spent 5 years in an embedded system on an 80386, where we started in "real mode" and then when we ran out of memory below the line, migrated to "286 extended mode" using the PharLap DPMI "DOS Extender". It worked very well. We even made good use of the segmentation system by letting malloc() return a separate segment for each call, so that the hardware could catch the worst addressing errors. The 80286 architecture was not bad. However, the large masses of programmers had come from S/370 and Unix backgrounds, and were used to large, FLAT address spaces. Code written expecting a FLAT address space did not sit comfortably in the segmented architecture. Eventually, flat addressing became the "normal" way to use the 80386 hardware, but the 80386 was actually flexible enough to allow several other addressing models. -- / Lars Poulsen +1-805-569-5277 http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/ 125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA lars@beagle-ears.com ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 10 Mar 2002 01:06:36 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 61 Message-ID: <6uelitgub7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1015718796 752 10.0.3.2 (10 Mar 2002 00:06:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2002 00:06:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103552 Lars Poulsen writes: > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > > The 8086 segmentation was broken; 286 had a reasonable implementation > > (if segmentation is ever reasonable, but that's a different issue). > > It wasn't able to go between 8086 and 286 modes transparently enough, > > so M$ never supported the segments right. > > The "segmentation" on the 8086 made no sense It was an address extender, pure and simple. Get 1MB physical address space without leaving 16bit address registers. And if treated as an PDP-11 16bit separate I+D system lookalike it was quite usable. Problems started when people wanted single >64k I or D spaces in one program, and there was in MS-DOS no OS support for segment switching that allowed the OS to move segments. Windows corrected that, too late and with too much other garbage included. > other than as > a way to execute code written for the segmented architecture > of the 80286 on a machine simplified by deleting the memory > management hardware. As 286 postdates 8086, not just in fabrication, but also in design, that is unlikely. > The 80286 architecture was not bad. IMHO it was badly broken. Segment size 1/256 of physical RAM was an total missmatch. Try procesing an 1MB image (1/16 of RAM and so decent data for the machine) and it will not fit in an segment. Try one segment for every line of pixels and performance sinks. So you end up coding an artificial "stripes" or "tiles" system into every program. Argh! > masses of programmers had come from S/370 and Unix > backgrounds, and were used to large, FLAT address spaces. Most MS-DOS/Windows programmers came from no previous experience or from 8bit micros. Dinky little segments just are an bad idea. >> hardware, but the 80386 was actually flexible enough to > allow several other addressing models. There segments can be 4GB, so they are usable. Unfortunately the entire concept had by then aquired such an bad reputation, that no one wanted it. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 16:30:12 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: <77903A054843F902.1A5B89EDDAF6C717.9D449785BEB7A37A@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <3C8AA914.3751211A@jkmicro.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> <6uelitgub7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Mar 9 18:24:30 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !\Bog1k-VVNNkf!FV&,4AS`.% (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103555 Neil Franklin wrote: > > > The 80286 architecture was not bad. > > IMHO it was badly broken. Segment size 1/256 of physical RAM was an > total missmatch. Try procesing an 1MB image (1/16 of RAM and so decent > data for the machine) and it will not fit in an segment. Try one > segment for every line of pixels and performance sinks. So you end up > coding an artificial "stripes" or "tiles" system into every program. > Argh! > After the segments, my biggest gripe is the "different addressing mode for each instruction" issue. Even after a good 15 years of on and off x86 programming, I still get burned by this. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 09 Mar 2002 18:10:07 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1bsn79w7m8.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> <6uelitgub7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1015722605 5010 128.123.64.113 (10 Mar 2002 01:10:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2002 01:10:05 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103556 Neil Franklin writes: > > > > The "segmentation" on the 8086 made no sense > > It was an address extender, pure and simple. Get 1MB physical address > space without leaving 16bit address registers. > > > other than as > > a way to execute code written for the segmented architecture > > of the 80286 on a machine simplified by deleting the memory > > management hardware. > > As 286 postdates 8086, not just in fabrication, but also in design, > that is unlikely. I've got real doubts about that. To me it looked like the 286 was the processor they really wanted to build, but the 8086 was all that would fit on the chip at the time. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3C8B0956.DDA060EA@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1015737659 12.237.69.87 (Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:20:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:20:59 GMT Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:20:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn14eed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103606 Nick Spalding wrote: > > Michael J. Albanese wrote, in > <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net>: > > > Did they ever admit (officially) that there were problems? The > > 286 certainly didn't hang around long. I remember being somewhat > > envious of an associate who received a brand-spanking new IBM/AT. > > Several weeks later, it didn't matter anymore -- AT's were being > > used for doorstops. > > Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for > that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has > attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have > assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. > The official introduction of the IBM PC was in 1981...and that computer was pre-AT. Other computers could perhaps be called PC's before IBM introduced its offering, however. I really thought the preferred term was "home computer" at that time. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C8B0A71.551CD332@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1015737942 12.237.69.87 (Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:25:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:25:42 GMT Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:25:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103602 Lars Poulsen wrote: > > Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > > The 8086 segmentation was broken; 286 had a reasonable implementation > > (if segmentation is ever reasonable, but that's a different issue). > > It wasn't able to go between 8086 and 286 modes transparently enough, > > so M$ never supported the segments right. > > The "segmentation" on the 8086 made no sense other than as > a way to execute code written for the segmented architecture > of the 80286 on a machine simplified by deleting the memory > management hardware. The 8086 should have come with an > application note explaining the intent of the design and > outlining the future migration path, and then Microsoft > engineering management should have vigorously insisted that > the code was written accordingly so that it would be able > to run well in the future, expanded architecture. > Truth be known, the original 8086 architecture was abismal, and would have died on the vine...if IBM had *not* put the damn thing in their PC. Of course, now with "protected" mode, the x86 architecture can address a large, unsegmented memory space and is decent for use in personal computers. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> <3C8B0956.DDA060EA@ev1.net> From: Dowe Keller Date: 09 Mar 2002 23:13:24 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 33 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.112 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.112 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1015747606 209.234.196.112 (10 Mar 2002 00:06:46 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103579 Charles Richmond writes: > Nick Spalding wrote: > > > > Michael J. Albanese wrote, in > > <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net>: > > > > > Did they ever admit (officially) that there were problems? The > > > 286 certainly didn't hang around long. I remember being somewhat > > > envious of an associate who received a brand-spanking new IBM/AT. > > > Several weeks later, it didn't matter anymore -- AT's were being > > > used for doorstops. > > > > Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for > > that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has > > attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have > > assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. > > > The official introduction of the IBM PC was in 1981...and > that computer was pre-AT. Other computers could perhaps > be called PC's before IBM introduced its offering, however. > I really thought the preferred term was "home computer" at > that time. The term I heard most (and the one I tended to use) was microcomputer. It was apt considering the power and flexability of those old machines in relation to contemperanious mini/mainframes. -- dowe@sierratel.com The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> <3C8B0956.DDA060EA@ev1.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 10 Mar 2002 09:09:30 GMT Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-200-200.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1015751370 news.dial.pipex.com 232 62.190.200.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!auucp0.ams.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103557 On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:20:59 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >> >The official introduction of the IBM PC was in 1981...and >that computer was pre-AT. Other computers could perhaps >be called PC's before IBM introduced its offering, however. >I really thought the preferred term was "home computer" at >that time. "Personal Computer" was the usual term here in the UK, for example the magazine Personal Computer World started in, I think, 1978. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:04:53 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> <3C8B0956.DDA060EA@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.5-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103593 Stan Barr wrote: > > "Personal Computer" was the usual term here in the UK, for example > the magazine Personal Computer World started in, I think, 1978. > ...and was actually a decent magazine until about 1985. :) (my favourite UK mag was Practical Computing -- whatever happened to it? - it was the nearest we had to Byte, I felt...) pete -- pete@fenelon.com "Irk the purists, irk the purists, it's a right good laugh." ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.23.4 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Reply-To: Nick Spalding Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> <3C8A40B3.1C69D7A1@trailing-edge.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:30:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.140.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 1015763414 193.203.140.15 (Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:30:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:30:14 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103599 Tim Shoppa wrote, in <3C8A40B3.1C69D7A1@trailing-edge.com>: > Pete Fenelon wrote: > > > > Nick Spalding wrote: > > > Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for > > > that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has > > > attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have > > > assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. > > > > PC was the tail-end of '81; AT would be '84. I sense bovine byproduct :) > > Maybe the "someone in a mailing list" is Charles Lasner :-). > > Ob-for-those-not-reading-afu-for-the-past-decade: look up "Lasnerian" > in your favorite search engine. If it is him he's posting under an alias! Thank you all for the information. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: "Michael J. Albanese" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:46 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C8B629A.2010201@revoke-my-charter.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020307 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103587 Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > The 8086 segmentation was broken; 286 had a reasonable implementation > (if segmentation is ever reasonable, but that's a different issue). > It wasn't able to go between 8086 and 286 modes transparently enough, > so M$ never supported the segments right. Yes, IIRC the 286 powered up in real mode, and you could easily jump from real to protected mode, but then you were stuck. You couldn't get back to real mode without doing a CPU reset. And certain things (using the BIOS, for example) became very difficult if you weren't in real mode. Mike -- (remove 'revoke-my-' from address for email) ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> <3C8B0956.DDA060EA@ev1.net> Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:15:49 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.51 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1015771914 205.206.39.51 (Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:51:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:51:54 EST Organization: UUNET Canada News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103580 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: >Charles Richmond writes: >> The official introduction of the IBM PC was in 1981...and >> that computer was pre-AT. Other computers could perhaps >> be called PC's before IBM introduced its offering, however. >> I really thought the preferred term was "home computer" at >> that time. >The term I heard most (and the one I tended to use) was microcomputer. >It was apt considering the power and flexability of those old machines >in relation to contemperanious mini/mainframes. I'd go with this. At the time we were supporting TRS-80 Model II s in accounting offices, as well as other CP/M systems. They were displacing Wang minis, etc. 'Home computer' didn't cover that. Regards. Mel. ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:54:59 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3cd17b01.159421365@news.btopenworld.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c893016$1_3@news.iglou.com> <1bzo1iqr29.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-136-248.in-addr.btopenworld.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1015782899 47 213.122.136.248 (10 Mar 2002 17:54:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:54:59 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103590 On 08 Mar 2002 21:54:22 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer sprachen: >They actually rereleased the Astrocam a few years back... so I bought >and built one... I'd forgotten just how bad 110 film is! My friend bought one just a couple of years ago. They're great if you want to see what the sky looks like 200 feet up. We took 4 or 5 pictures and none of them had a glimpse of what we wanted to photograph (a particular interesting building). Still he'd probably be very interested in one with a cine camera. He's also one of the first people to snap up the Casio wrist camera, the black and white 120x100 one. They're also useless in a cute way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche) ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:55:00 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3cd27d6e.160042170@news.btopenworld.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8B629A.2010201@revoke-my-charter.net> Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-136-248.in-addr.btopenworld.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1015782900 47 213.122.136.248 (10 Mar 2002 17:55:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:55:00 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103594 On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:46 -0500, "Michael J. Albanese" sprachen: >Yes, IIRC the 286 powered up in real mode, and you could easily jump >from real to protected mode, but then you were stuck. You couldn't >get back to real mode without doing a CPU reset. And certain things >(using the BIOS, for example) became very difficult if you weren't >in real mode. What was that trick, that involved resetting the CPU using the keyboard processor, or something? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 10 Mar 2002 21:53:42 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6uhenow3e1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> <6uelitgub7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1bsn79w7m8.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1015793622 511 10.0.3.2 (10 Mar 2002 20:53:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Mar 2002 20:53:42 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103612 Joe Pfeiffer writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > > > > > > other than as > > > a way to execute code written for the segmented architecture > > > of the 80286 on a machine simplified by deleting the memory > > > management hardware. > > > > As 286 postdates 8086, not just in fabrication, but also in design, > > that is unlikely. > > I've got real doubts about that. To me it looked like the 286 was the > processor they really wanted to build, but the 8086 was all that would > fit on the chip at the time. It may look like that, in the rear mirror. But it was not made that way. 8086 was intended as an "temporary" chip to bridge the time between 8080/8085 running out and 80432 becoming available. So it was a simple hack. Then 80432 failled and Intel need something else. So the 80286 was an 8086 with a bit of 80432 added in to bridge over until they could make 80386. That is at least what I have managed to piece together from an book on computer architecture plus a few Byte articles. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> <3C8B0956.DDA060EA@ev1.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 10 Mar 2002 21:02:31 GMT Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-200-81.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1015794151 news.dial.pipex.com 227 62.190.200.81 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103624 On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:04:53 -0000, Pete Fenelon wrote: >Stan Barr wrote: >> >> "Personal Computer" was the usual term here in the UK, for example >> the magazine Personal Computer World started in, I think, 1978. >> > >...and was actually a decent magazine until about 1985. :) >(my favourite UK mag was Practical Computing -- whatever happened to >it? - it was the nearest we had to Byte, I felt...) I've just has a search and found my issue 1 PCW and a few copies of Practical Computing & PCW from 1978/9...just settling down for a quiet read ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:02:35 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1015855355 3663 128.29.114.13 (11 Mar 2002 14:02:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:02:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103654 Nick Spalding writes: >Completely OT but what date was the AT, or the original IBM PC for >that matter. I ask because someone in a mailing list I am on has >attempted to boost his computing credibility by claiming to have >assembled his own PC 'in 1980, using an old AT case...'. ... there goes my morning coffee onto the monitor. Is he also claiming to have the Brooklyn Bridge available at a bargain price for the right buyer? The original IBM PC was announced in August 1981 with first customer shipment (FCS) later that year. I can't pin down the AT release date exactly, but the latest date shown in the BIOS source listings I have is 1/12/84 (diskette BIOS interface) although I'm not sure that it represents the BIOS at FCS. Joe Morris ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1dik8uo8t2ghiotv087hu9bf5qlbfcd7pc@4ax.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:37:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.59.21.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1015857465 65.59.21.98 (Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:37:45 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:37:45 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:37:45 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103643 jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) writes: > The original IBM PC was announced in August 1981 with first customer > shipment (FCS) later that year. I can't pin down the AT release date > exactly, but the latest date shown in the BIOS source listings I have > is 1/12/84 (diskette BIOS interface) although I'm not sure that it > represents the BIOS at FCS. from v10n5 acm can ... fall '82 "In the last issue of CAN we published a performance comparison of the Intel iAPX-432, Intel 8086, Motorola 68000, and DEC VAX-11/780. We mentioned that Intel had announced a successor to the 8086, called the 80286. Intel is sampling parts now and will ship 8MHz and 10MHz versions next winter. In addition to new instructions that support 32-bit data, the 286 has a spohisticated protection mechnaism reminiscent of MULTICS. The 286 also has a compativility mode to run existing 8086 programs." ... "The bottom performance line as measured by these four small programs is that the newest version of the 432 (8MHz with 4 wait states) is almost as fast as a 5MHz 8086, while the 80286 leads the 432 by almost an order of magnitude. Furthermoe, this fast machine (in 8086 compatibility mode) outperforms a 16MHz 68000." -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:54:41 -0800 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3C8CEF61.EA78726@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@171.69.75.70 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 148 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103675 Lars Poulsen wrote: > The "segmentation" on the 8086 made no sense other than as > > a way to execute code written for the segmented architecture > of the 80286 on a machine simplified by deleting the memory > management hardware. The 8086 should have come with an > application note explaining the intent of the design and > outlining the future migration path, and then Microsoft > engineering management should have vigorously insisted that > the code was written accordingly so that it would be able > to run well in the future, expanded architecture. > > -- > / Lars Poulsen +1-805-569-5277 http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/ Long before the 8086 "segmentation" had a very different meaning in computer architecture - base and limit bound memory with type and protection attributes (see Multics and B5000 et seq). In the 8086 Intel produced multiple, overlapping, base-registered-addressable memory regions, as a way to get across the 64K adressability boundary, with NO characteristics of segments. The architects knew that. But then Bruce Ravenal called them segments and memory architecture discussion has been crippled ever since. The 8086 was supposed to be a stop-gap till the 8800 (later the 432) arrived. I am certain - Steve Morse or Bill Pohlman or Bruce Ravenal please correct me if I am wrong - that there was no idea in the 8086 team that a follow-on (the 286) would use real segments. On November 27, 2000, I forwarded an email from Steve Morse (primary 8086 architect) to comp.arch and alt.folklore.computers: Steve Morse wrote: > John, > > You forced me to do some research in order to answer your questions > about the term "segment" in the 8086 architecture. I frankly couldn't > recall when the term first appeared. > > So I consulted my archives containing the original specs that I wrote > for the 8086. Here is what I discovered: > > 1. Original Version, August 13, 1976 > Authored by S.P. Morse > > No reference to the term "segment". Talks about "relocation" registers > instead. Here's the description of the register set: > > "The 8086 contians [sic] eight 8-bit data registers which can be addressed > singly or in pairs, two 16-bit index registers, eight sixteen-bit > relocation registers which serve to extend the address space to 24 bits, > a 16-bit memory pointer, a 16-bit stack pointer, a 16-bit program > counter, and a 16-bit processor status word." > > Furthermore, the document goes on to say how these "relocation" > registers are used: > > "Relocation registers are used to obtain an address in an extended > memory space. A reloation register is 16 bits long and has 8 low order > bits of zeroes appended yielding a 24-bit base address of a page. ... A > 24-bit memory address corresponding to a 16-bit data, stack, or code > address is obtained by adding the 16-bit address to the appropriate base > register." > > 2. Revision 1, October 22, 1976 > Authored by S.P. Morse > > By this time I had probably been criticized for having too much wasted > memory due to the high granularity for the start of each page. Also > there were rumblings from the 8800 team that such a powerful mechanism > was stepping on their toes, although there was never any pressure on me > to yield for that reason. So, for whatever the reasons were, Revision 1 > talks about the registers as follows: > > "The 8086 contians eight 8-bit data registers which can be addressed > singly or in pairs, two 16-bit index registers, four sixteen-bit > relocation registers which serve to extend the address space to 20 bits, > a 16-bit memory pointer, a 16-bit stack pointer, a 16-bit program > counter, and a 16-bit processor status word." > > And it goes on to describe the mechanism as follows: > > "Relocation registers are used to obtain an address in an extended > memory space. A relocation register is 16 bits long and has four > low-order bits of zeroes appended yielding a 20-bit base address of a > page. ... A 20-bit memory address corresponding to a 16-bit data, stack, > or code address is obtained by adding the 16-bit to the appropriate > relocation register." > > 3. Revision 2, February 18, 1977 > Authored by S.P. Morse > > The sections quoted above from Revision 1 were unchanged in Revision 2. > > 4. Final Version, January 12, 1978 > Authored by S.P. Morse, W.B. Pohlman, and B.W. Ravenel > > By this point Ravenel was an active participant in the design. > Pohlman's name was added merely as a curtesy since he was the manager of > the group -- but he was not actively involved in either the design or > the documentation of it. > > Now the terms "segment" and "segment register" appear for the first > time, so I suspect that it was probably Ravenel who named it. Here's > the wording: > > "The 8086 processor contains three files of four 16-bit registers and a > file of nine one-bit flags. The three files of registers are the > general register file, the pointer and index register file, and the > segment register file." > > And it goes on to describe the use of these "segment" registers as > follows: > > "The 8086 processor performs 16-bit arithmetic, and hence the address > objects it manipulates are 16 bits in length. Since a 16-bit quantity > can only address 64K bytes, additional mechanisms are required to build > addresses in its megabyte memory space. We may conceive of the 8086 > memory as an aribitrary number of segments [note 1], each at most 64K > bytes in size. Each segment begins at an address which is evenly > divisible by sixteen. At any given moment, the contents of four of > these segments are immediately addressable. ... The high-order sixteen > bits of the address of each current sugment is held in a dedicated > 16-bit segment register [note 1], and is called the segment address > [note 1]" > > Note 1: The first occurence of "segment", "segment register" and > "segment address" in the above paragraph are underlined (we didn't have > an itacilizing word-process in those days) indicating that we are now > defining them. So although I created "segments" in the Original Version > and refined them in Revision 1, they were first named as such by Ravenel > in the Final Version. > > Hope that answers your question. > > -- Steve > -- Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." G Washington ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: 11 Mar 02 12:39:43 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <979.835T2176T7595833@sky.bus.com> References: <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> <6uelitgub7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1bsn79w7m8.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <6uhenow3e1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-206.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!onvoy.com!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103708 In article <6uhenow3e1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> neil@franklin.ch.remove (Neil Franklin) writes: >8086 was intended as an "temporary" chip to bridge the time between >8080/8085 running out and 80432 becoming available. So it was a simple >hack. This once again proves one of my philosophical tenets: Consider your every move to be irrevocable, because whether you realize it or not, it probably is. Or, less accurately but more succinctly: If at first you don't succeed, you might as well forget it. Or, perhaps a bit better: There's nothing more permanent than a temporary fix. As someone once said in rec.humor.funny: It's a good thing the 432 didn't succeed. Otherwise a truly horrible Intel architecture might have taken over the world. Whew! -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### Message-ID: <3C8D9E64.5090906@beagle-ears.com> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:21:24 -0800 From: Lars Poulsen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: da,en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> <3C8CEF61.EA78726@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.154.106.6 X-Trace: azure.impulse.net 1015914309 190 207.154.106.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!sienna.impulse.net!azure.impulse.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103711 J Ahlstrom wrote: >>1. Original Version, August 13, 1976 >> Authored by S.P. Morse >>Furthermore, the document goes on to say how these "relocation" >>registers are used: >> >>"Relocation registers are used to obtain an address in an extended >>memory space. A reloation register is 16 bits long and has 8 low order >>bits of zeroes appended yielding a 24-bit base address of a page. ... A >>24-bit memory address corresponding to a 16-bit data, stack, or code >>address is obtained by adding the 16-bit address to the appropriate base >>register." This would have been a very good implementation for the time. 16 MB of address space ... comparable to MC68000. -- / Lars Poulsen +1-805-569-5277 http://www.beagle-ears.com/lars/ 125 South Ontare Rd, Santa Barbara, CA 93105 USA lars@beagle-ears.com ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:17:05 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <20020312081705.798c3653.steveo@eircom.net> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8B629A.2010201@revoke-my-charter.net> <3cd27d6e.160042170@news.btopenworld.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2905.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1015956005 27093 194.134.219.98 (12 Mar 2002 18:00:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:00:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.3 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103759 On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:55:00 +0000 (UTC) greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: GCU> What was that trick, that involved resetting the CPU using the GCU> keyboard processor, or something? That was it - with a magic number left somewhere for the boot code to find so it didn't do a cold start sequence. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:11:42 -0800 Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3C8E6F0E.4E2929D@computer.org> References: <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8A96F1.1020304@beagle-ears.com> <6uelitgub7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1bsn79w7m8.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <6uhenow3e1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <979.835T2176T7595833@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1015967498 16107889 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103705 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <6uhenow3e1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> neil@franklin.ch.remove > (Neil Franklin) writes: > > >8086 was intended as an "temporary" chip to bridge the time between > >8080/8085 running out and 80432 becoming available. So it was a simple > >hack. > > This once again proves one of my philosophical tenets: Consider your > every move to be irrevocable, because whether you realize it or not, > it probably is. > > Or, less accurately but more succinctly: If at first you don't succeed, > you might as well forget it. > > Or, perhaps a bit better: There's nothing more permanent than a > temporary fix. > > As someone once said in rec.humor.funny: It's a good thing the 432 > didn't succeed. Otherwise a truly horrible Intel architecture might > have taken over the world. Whew! > > -- > cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) > Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. > I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, > appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. If at first you don't succeed, don't try skydiving. Sam ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:53:43 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3c9142e2.69961948@news.btopenworld.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8B629A.2010201@revoke-my-charter.net> <3cd27d6e.160042170@news.btopenworld.com> <20020312081705.798c3653.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-85-82.in-addr.btopenworld.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1016103223 10008 213.122.85.82 (14 Mar 2002 10:53:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:53:43 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103893 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:17:05 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith sprachen: > That was it - with a magic number left somewhere for the boot >code to find so it didn't do a cold start sequence. Yep, I'd like to know how it worked in detail tho. It struck me as clever. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche) ###### From: "Michael J. Albanese" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:13:02 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C90A1DE.70801@revoke-my-charter.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020307 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8B629A.2010201@revoke-my-charter.net> <3cd27d6e.160042170@news.btopenworld.com> <20020312081705.798c3653.steveo@eircom.net> <3c9142e2.69961948@news.btopenworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103887 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: > Yep, I'd like to know how it worked in detail tho. It struck me as > clever. The following article describes several of the methods: http://x86.ddj.com/articles/pmbasics/tspec_a1_doc.htm Mike -- (remove 'revoke-my-' from address for email) ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: IBM Mainframe at home Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:26:10 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 30 Message-ID: <85u19ugihrhg10qh0ps7slfgnd2li0ia51@4ax.com> References: <4oo08u4ikvq47b86ii846si2rnhpb9hes6@4ax.com> <5lwg8.311493$eS3.23257867@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <3C84C130.3020506@revoke-my-charter.net> <3c892f3a$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3C8A217C.7000904@revoke-my-charter.net> <1bwuwlwfli.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3C8B629A.2010201@revoke-my-charter.net> <3cd27d6e.160042170@news.btopenworld.com> <20020312081705.798c3653.steveo@eircom.net> <3c9142e2.69961948@news.btopenworld.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZDBmJTZSkMSsTyBMtdKJxj+lDkyRZUzdFu6Z0I7FQ/chpgcJHZktV1 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Mar 2002 19:32:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103901 On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:53:43 +0000 (UTC), greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote: >On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:17:05 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith > sprachen: > >> That was it - with a magic number left somewhere for the boot >>code to find so it didn't do a cold start sequence. > >Yep, I'd like to know how it worked in detail tho. It struck me as >clever. In DOS, this little bit of code will force a warm boot. Change '1234' to '0' for a cold boot. See RBIL, Int 19h for more details: 1053:0100 B84000 MOV AX,0040 1053:0103 8ED8 MOV DS,AX 1053:0105 C70672003412 MOV Word Ptr [0072],1234 1053:010B EAF0FF00F0 JMP F000:FFF0 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's >kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side >effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche) -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com To reply by email, correct the mangled reply address.