From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 13:26:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYtQUcplK3bRWdtmKXySuDsOUiUkzg7M1umZYzm/scCd7f0ltx06f7u X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Feb 2002 15:39:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-235-177 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101310 In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Nick Maclaren : >> Rumour has it that the technical staff at HP wanted to, but the senior >> (read: political) people overrode them, because the Intel decisions >> were all taken by suits (i.e. political and marketing executives) >> and Intel were not prepared to reconsider. > >Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) >that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are >allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero >understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their >business. My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of lobotomy. Saturday, the BBC aired an interview with an Intel muckymuck on their "Global Business" program. He didn't talk about technical stuff but did talk about the corporate philosophy. I found it interesting. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: mayan@bestweb.net Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 20:55:00 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3C6300BB.357D0623@gmx.de> <3C63884B.C1AD91FC@mediasec.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 120 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101302 Nick Maclaren wrote: > [snipped a bunch of speculation as to why IA-64 failed, including speculation that it was the compiler] > > So I haven't a clue. But it happened. There are two different questions to be answered 1. why did Intel/HP decide to go with VLIWs? 2. why did Intel/HP continue to go with VLIWs? I do not know. But I'm going to guess the answer to (1). Lets put this in historical context. Merced was announced in late 95? (I am speaking from memory; so I could be off), so it was concieved earlier, probably much earlier. Lets look at some elements that were present in the 1990-93 time-frame H.P. acquired Cydrome, and various people from both it and Multiflow around 89-90. This group included both Bob Rau and Josh Fisher. The 150 MHz Alpha was unveiled in late 1992, and until then most machines were limited to around 50-70 MHz. Most machines (and thinking) was around the braniac lines, not speed-demons. [Personal aside: I think the _real_ tipping point for speed-demons vs. braniacs was the announcement of the 21164 in 94 - 300 Mhz _and_ multiple instruction issue; until then the POWER2 had done a respectable job of preventing the speed-demons from scoring a run-away victory] Chip sizes were limited: ~1 million transistors. The RIOS (Power) processor actually used 4 chips to achieve its performance. People were trying to issue multiple instructions per cycle, and thinking of dispatching them out-of-order, but were running into complexity in the dispatch unit. To paraphrase "we're trying to issue 3-4 instructions per cycle, and having problems making it fit! what happens when we want to issue 6-8, and out-of-order as well??" Further it was thought that the dispatch complexity would limit the cycle time, in part because all the "widely-known" algorithms were quadratic in the dispatch width. In _that_ environment VLIW had some potential - it eliminated much of the dispatch unit complexity. Note that some people believe that it was cycle-time that made HP/Intel choose VLIWs; I think design complexity was at least as important, and (potential) dispatch-unit size played a role too. HP had the talent pool and some of the tools (the Cydrome compiler, for one) to actively pursue VLIWs as a simpler alternative to branciac OOO superscalars. They probably produced numbers that showed that extrapolating based on what people in 1991-1992 thought would be possible in 1995-1997, that VLIWs would be extremely competitive. However, in hind-sight (and not even in hind-sight; go to google groups and dig around in the 1988-1994 time-frame; use VLIW and Glew/Moudgill/Mashey as key-words) it became clear that: - caches did, and always have, determined cycle-time. - when you have 4-10 million transistors to play around with, the size of the dispatch unit, even with out-of-order issue, is not significant. - as people understood how to build dispatch units, and as tools improved, the design complexity was manageable. Most people do not realize what a shock the 21064, and to a much larger extent the 21164 and 21264 announcements were. Each of them was a quantum jump in terms of what people thought was generally possible. I suspect that the original HP/Intel design was a fairly clean design. [Of course, I could be wrong; this was the second time the HP team was designing a VLIW; they might have been suffering from second-time disease; i.e. throwing in every bell and whistle they couldn't put in, or didn't think of the first-time around] If it did start off as a clean design, I will bet that each time a new Alpha generation was announced, it probably lead to a reassessment of the target performance; every time that happened, more features got added to the architecture, to squeeze out a little bit more performance. BTW: my personal opinion, was that the writing was on the wall for anyone to see by 1996, and definitely by 1997. I am not certain when I was positive that VLIWs were a bad, non-competitive idea, but it was sometime in 1995. By Jan 1996, I had given up on VLIW as a general purpose microprocessor architecture. People at Intel/HP were at least as smart as I am, and had done the same work I had. So I am puzzled as to why they didn't kill the project in that time frame. Ah, well. I guess I'll never really know what happened. Mayan ###### Message-ID: <3C66038B.76C3FD28@igs.net> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 00:22:19 -0500 From: Paul DeMone X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6300BB.357D0623@gmx.de> <3C63884B.C1AD91FC@mediasec.de> <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: news4 Lines: 64 X-Comments: This message was posted through Newsfeeds.com X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Newsfeeds.com does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Comments3: IMPORTANT: Under NO circumstances will postings containing illegal or copyrighted material through this service be tolerated!! X-Report: Please report illegal or inappropriate use to You may also use our online abuse reporting from: http://www.newsfeeds.com/abuseform.htm X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers, INCLUDING the body (DO NOT SEND ATTACHMENTS) Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 73,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!corp-news.newsgroups.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101350 mayan@bestweb.net wrote: [...] > [Personal aside: I think the _real_ tipping point for speed-demons vs. > braniacs was the announcement of the 21164 in 94 - 300 Mhz _and_ > multiple > instruction issue; until then the POWER2 had done a respectable job > of preventing the speed-demons from scoring a run-away victory] I think the 21264 was the clincher. It kind of made the speed demon vs the brainiac issue a moot point. It was both the most aggressive OOO superscalar design attempted to that point but it ran as fast as a 21164, an in-order machine with half the integer units, in the same damn process, and much faster than competing, simpler processors in the same time frame. > > > I suspect that the original HP/Intel design was a fairly clean design. > [Of > course, I could be wrong; this was the second time the HP team was > designing a VLIW; they might have been suffering from second-time > disease; > i.e. throwing in every bell and whistle they couldn't put in, or didn't > think of the first-time around] Go look at Playdoh (HPL-PD) and Trimaran documentation. Some wild stuff got left out of IA64 like explicit pipe scheduling ("equals" scheduling model). But most of the bells and whistles were included in IA64. I think the impact of x86 compatibility mode on the development and verification cycle of Merced (and perhaps McKinley too) was far out of proportion to: 1) what is generally acknowledged outside of Intel and HP, and 2) what might be assumed from the fraction of the die dedicated to x86 [...] > > People at Intel/HP were at least as smart as I am, and had done the same > work I had. So I am puzzled as to why they didn't kill the project in > that > time frame. > > Ah, well. I guess I'll never really know what happened. I think Intel was anxious to compete with RISCs with something other than their own MORP*. Once the project got rolling with everyone and their dog (except for McNealy and his mutt) signed on then it developed inertia seldom seen outside of a major defense project. Luckily for Intel, ISA differences are now essentially a second order effect behind semiconductor technology and implementation quality. So IA64 can, and IMO likely will be, a commercial success even if it proves to be an architectural failure of the same order as x86. *MORP was a disparaging term Intel marketing weasels used to refer to their RISC competitors in the 1990s. Stands for My Own RISC Processor. -- Paul W. DeMone The 801 experiment SPARCed an ARMs race of EPIC Kanata, Ontario proportions to put more PRECISION and POWER into demone@mosaid.com architectures with MIPSed results but ALPHA's well pdemone@igs.net that ends well. ###### From: zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 10 Feb 2002 06:08:25 GMT Organization: Red Hat Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3C6300BB.357D0623@gmx.de> <3C63884B.C1AD91FC@mediasec.de> <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: devserv.devel.redhat.com X-Trace: cronkite.cygnus.com 1013321305 20352 172.16.44.124 (10 Feb 2002 06:08:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Feb 2002 06:08:25 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.4 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!sanjose1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!cygnus.com!zaitcev Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101323 > From: mayan@bestweb.net > dig around in the 1988-1994 time-frame; use VLIW and Glew/Moudgill/Mashey > as key-words) it became clear that: > - caches did, and always have, determined cycle-time. That's a blanket statement, I'd think. >[...] > Most people do not realize what a shock the 21064, and to a much larger > extent the 21164 and 21264 announcements were. Each of them was a > quantum jump in terms of what people thought was generally possible. I do not remember any especial shock. We did have a waiting list to read the ACM mag issue dedicated to Alpha, but that was 21064. It was an interesitng technical curiousity, and a new kid on the block. By 21264 time Alpha was considered mostly irrelevant by CPU people who I knew. Now, the P6/200 - that was some shock! We even had an emergency meeting or two over it. > I suspect that the original HP/Intel design was a fairly clean design. >[...] > If it did start off as a clean design, I will bet that each time a new > Alpha generation was announced, it probably lead to a reassessment of > the target performance; every time that happened, more features got > added to the architecture, to squeeze out a little bit more performance. Ain't it the truth... First NARCH was a 1.0um, 40MHz chip, without any register interlock whatsoever, and with 256 words of cache (YES. 1KB cache, and NO L2). The wisdom was that compiler will schedule almost everything right! L2 would be harmful because a) it fooled compiler b) it spoiled bandwidth and latency of main memory. It never was booted, but models touched 250 SPECint89 and 1200 SPECfp89. As time flew by, the whole thing became more and more dynamic, and cache started to snowball to compensate for speculative parts. -- Pete ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <3C6300BB.357D0623@gmx.de> <3C63884B.C1AD91FC@mediasec.de> <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> <3C66038B.76C3FD28@igs.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 59 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <6mp98.45889$QS5.3309126@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:32:18 CST X-Trace: sv3-xH5B/zkskCjPd7W3z14A+K9ywOy09POF8WnUbeCiQBzQ6BxR9RVHwF706L0znFlr3HyUlpY+OKmGLCE!WSwkpaBtNwWo92WUApNra0HHoy3XIpebv/5OdcKB+yipmdtq96lC2vIV6q0NKVWoLo4fIAQnogby!bvvYG+WmRylcksNGKtFonQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 07:32:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101355 "Paul DeMone" wrote in message news:3C66038B.76C3FD28@igs.net... ... > I think Intel was anxious to compete with RISCs with something other > than their own MORP*. Once the project got rolling with everyone and > their dog (except for McNealy and his mutt) signed on then it developed > inertia seldom seen outside of a major defense project. Luckily for > Intel, ISA differences are now essentially a second order effect behind > semiconductor technology and implementation quality. So IA64 can, > and IMO likely will be, a commercial success even if it proves to be > an architectural failure of the same order as x86. 1. x86 became a de facto standard by virtue of inventing a new mass market (the PC, which had been more a curiosity - albeit a widespread one - until then) and dominating it based on the ability of IBM to create a de facto *system* standard. x86 also offered pretty decent price/performance for its time: it was a somewhat crude but credible competitor to, e.g., the (F11) PDP-11 at a radically lower price point. IA64, by contrast, is attempting to invade mature existing markets: there isn't a single new application area I'm aware of for it to gain a toehold in that isn't already addressable by superior (and price-competitive, let alone price/performance-competitive) alternatives. 2. The reasons the competitors are, and should remain, superior (at least for any upper-end applications where the power of multiple processors is required) are largely based on relative required chip area, power consumption, and (at least unless the situation changes in some IPF member after Madison/Deerfield, which likely means no earlier than 2005) on-chip support for multi-processing and direct DRAM attachment. In such upper-end applications, the ability of POWER4, likely Hammer, and perhaps EV7 (EV8 would have been better) and PA-RISC 8800 to deliver *several times* the performance for a given number of processor packages will severely limit IA64's ability to compete, given the degree to which processor package count drives up overall server cost. It isn't so much the choice of ISA per se that's to blame for this as the choice of the EPIC architecture and the excesses already committed in pursuing it (again, at least until some post-Madison/Deerfield generation appears): while McKinley devotes significant chip area to cache the larger part is still dedicated to the EPIC core, and shrinks won't make the difference in the size of this core compared with the sizes of the POWER4, Hammer, and other cores insignificant for the foreseeable future (since those competing architectures can still place at least twice as many - often higher-performing - cores in the same chip area as IA64 can, though at some point limits on memory access from a single package may limit the number of cores that a single package can effectively use). So comparisons with the x86's rise to glory don't seem merited. And as more and more people and their dogs (Dell, SGI, even HP in their continuation of the PA-RISC line and Intel in its Yamhill skunk works effort) develop second thoughts on this matter, IA64's inevitability becomes more and more questionable. - bill ###### From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 10 Feb 2002 12:11:50 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <3C63884B.C1AD91FC@mediasec.de> <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: draco.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!asynchrone-stat!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!nmm1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101330 In article <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net>, wrote: > > >Nick Maclaren wrote: >> >[snipped a bunch of speculation as to why IA-64 failed, including >speculation > that it was the compiler] >> >> So I haven't a clue. But it happened. > >There are two different questions to be answered >1. why did Intel/HP decide to go with VLIWs? >2. why did Intel/HP continue to go with VLIWs? > >I do not know. But I'm going to guess the answer to (1). Lets put this >in >historical context. Merced was announced in late 95? (I am speaking from >memory; so I could be off), so it was concieved earlier, probably much >earlier. [ Explanation snipped ] That makes a lot of sense. I am a software person, so my remarks about why EPIC (and I mean EPIC, not VLIW) was known to be a bad idea in 1990 are based on the software aspects. If the decision was taken by hardware people, with inappropriate, inadequate or ignored input from the software people, that could explain a lot. >BTW: my personal opinion, was that the writing was on the wall for >anyone to >see by 1996, and definitely by 1997. I am not certain when I was >positive >that VLIWs were a bad, non-competitive idea, but it was sometime in >1995. >By Jan 1996, I had given up on VLIW as a general purpose microprocessor >architecture. > >People at Intel/HP were at least as smart as I am, and had done the same >work I had. So I am puzzled as to why they didn't kill the project in >that >time frame. Rumour has it that the technical staff at HP wanted to, but the senior (read: political) people overrode them, because the Intel decisions were all taken by suits (i.e. political and marketing executives) and Intel were not prepared to reconsider. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: nmm1@cam.ac.uk Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 ###### From: Paul Repacholi Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 10 Feb 2002 21:34:12 +0800 Organization: iQnet Lines: 131 Sender: prep@k9 Message-ID: <877kplv4tn.fsf@prep.synonet.com> References: <3C6300BB.357D0623@gmx.de> <3C63884B.C1AD91FC@mediasec.de> <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news-01.core.usertools.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: nnrp.waia.asn.au 1013353953 770 203.12.222.155 (10 Feb 2002 15:12:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@nnrp.waia.asn.au NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:12:33 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Cache-Post-Path: angelina!unknown@p004.ch01.auto.usertools.net X-Cache: nntpcache 2.3.3 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!nntp.waia.asn.au!nnrp.waia.asn.au!!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101335 mayan@bestweb.net writes: > Nick Maclaren wrote: > > > [snipped a bunch of speculation as to why IA-64 failed, including > speculation > that it was the compiler] > > > > So I haven't a clue. But it happened. > > There are two different questions to be answered > 1. why did Intel/HP decide to go with VLIWs? The answer to this is on the record. The HP designers considered that an OoO processor was not feasable, so they looked for another way. They estimated that the compilers would make better progress than CPU designs. EV6 shot them down, *but* that was many years later so they where on resonable ground at the time. > 2. why did Intel/HP continue to go with VLIWs? That is a much deeper swamp. Once the EV6 was demoed, then the main reason for itanic existing vanished, and the compilers still had not made the big break-through. > I do not know. But I'm going to guess the answer to (1). Lets put > this in historical context. Merced was announced in late 95? (I am > speaking from memory; so I could be off), so it was concieved > earlier, probably much earlier. Started IIRC 88-89, intel got on board in 92 or so. End of 96 it was anounced that it would not ship that Oct... > Lets look at some elements that were present in the 1990-93 > time-frame H.P. acquired Cydrome, and various people from both it > and Multiflow around 89-90. This group included both Bob Rau and > Josh Fisher. Yes, HP had many people whith skills on the VLIW side, so they made a good pick at the time. > The 150 MHz Alpha was unveiled in late 1992, and until then most > machines were limited to around 50-70 MHz. Most machines (and > thinking) was around the braniac lines, not speed-demons. > [Personal aside: I think the _real_ tipping point for speed-demons > vs. braniacs was the announcement of the 21164 in 94 - 300 Mhz > _and_ multiple instruction issue; until then the POWER2 had done a > respectable job of preventing the speed-demons from scoring a > run-away victory] The EV5 was massivly over speeded; that is, it was screaming from wait to wait! Cache and memory latence realy bit hard. If nothing else, it had the positive effect of forcing the design to become latency tolerant! > Chip sizes were limited: ~1 million transistors. The RIOS (Power) > processor actually used 4 chips to achieve its performance. > People were trying to issue multiple instructions per cycle, and > thinking of dispatching them out-of-order, but were running into > complexity in the dispatch unit. To paraphrase "we're trying to > issue 3-4 instructions per cycle, and having problems making it fit! > what happens when we want to issue 6-8, and out-of-order as well??" > Further it was thought that the dispatch complexity would limit the > cycle time, in part because all the "widely-known" algorithms were > quadratic in the dispatch width. > In _that_ environment VLIW had some potential - it eliminated much > of the dispatch unit complexity. Note that some people believe that > it was cycle-time that made HP/Intel choose VLIWs; I think design > complexity was at least as important, and (potential) dispatch-unit > size played a role too. > HP had the talent pool and some of the tools (the Cydrome compiler, > for one) to actively pursue VLIWs as a simpler alternative to > branciac OOO superscalars. They probably produced numbers that > showed that extrapolating based on what people in 1991-1992 thought > would be possible in 1995-1997, that VLIWs would be extremely > competitive. > However, in hind-sight (and not even in hind-sight; go to google > groups and dig around in the 1988-1994 time-frame; use VLIW and > Glew/Moudgill/Mashey as key-words) it became clear that: > - caches did, and always have, determined cycle-time. > - when you have 4-10 million transistors to play around with, the > size of the dispatch unit, even with out-of-order issue, is not > significant. > - as people understood how to build dispatch units, and as tools > improved, the design complexity was manageable. > Most people do not realize what a shock the 21064, and to a much > larger extent the 21164 and 21264 announcements were. Each of them > was a quantum jump in terms of what people thought was generally > possible. > I suspect that the original HP/Intel design was a fairly clean > design. [Of course, I could be wrong; this was the second time the > HP team was designing a VLIW; they might have been suffering from > second-time disease; i.e. throwing in every bell and whistle they > couldn't put in, or didn't think of the first-time around] > If it did start off as a clean design, I will bet that each time a > new Alpha generation was announced, it probably lead to a > reassessment of the target performance; every time that happened, > more features got added to the architecture, to squeeze out a little > bit more performance. > BTW: my personal opinion, was that the writing was on the wall for > anyone to see by 1996, and definitely by 1997. I am not certain when > I was positive that VLIWs were a bad, non-competitive idea, but it > was sometime in 1995. By Jan 1996, I had given up on VLIW as a > general purpose microprocessor architecture. > People at Intel/HP were at least as smart as I am, and had done the > same work I had. So I am puzzled as to why they didn't kill the > project in that time frame. I agree with your assesment. I think itanic should have been shot as soon as pass 1 of the EV6 fired. Mind you, it well cold have not been sorted in time and thus ended up still bourne. > Ah, well. I guess I'll never really know what happened. -- Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd., +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda. West Australia 6076 Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 15:02:55 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013355003 nnrp-13:24108 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101303 According to Nick Maclaren : > Rumour has it that the technical staff at HP wanted to, but the senior > (read: political) people overrode them, because the Intel decisions > were all taken by suits (i.e. political and marketing executives) > and Intel were not prepared to reconsider. Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their business. Chris. ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:06:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.160.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013364363 12.72.160.159 (Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:06:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:06:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101325 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:v2264a.092.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to Nick Maclaren : > > Rumour has it that the technical staff at HP wanted to, but the senior > > (read: political) people overrode them, because the Intel decisions > > were all taken by suits (i.e. political and marketing executives) > > and Intel were not prepared to reconsider. > > Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) > that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are > allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero > understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their > business. I am sure you do think that, but over in some "alt.marketing" group there is someone posting about how they think "it's absurd (if not obscene) that in the "professions" of management and product development, people are alowed, (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero understanding or interest in the basic marketing and competitive strategy workings of their business." :-) After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. Sure, it would be good if everyone had knowledge of all areas, and for senior management, at least some exposure to most of those aspects is even more important. But the technical people are often at least as "out of the real picture" as the marketing people. :-( Of course, I am NOT personally indicting anyone here :-) -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:06:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.160.159 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013364364 12.72.160.159 (Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:06:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:06:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101326 wrote in message news:a4647m$5g2$2@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: > >According to Nick Maclaren : > >> Rumour has it that the technical staff at HP wanted to, but the senior > >> (read: political) people overrode them, because the Intel decisions > >> were all taken by suits (i.e. political and marketing executives) > >> and Intel were not prepared to reconsider. > > > >Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) > >that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are > >allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero > >understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their > >business. > > My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of > lobotomy. My experience is just the opposite. I was about 13 years out of undergraduate school, with a career in programming and architecture when I went back to school to get an MBA (Executive MBA, so I kept my job while in school). I found it enlightening. There was so much more to business that I had not understood. For example, I sort of knew what accounting was supposed to do, but after my accounting class, I had a much better understanding of what all those numbers really meant (Of course, this was pre Enron!) and why they were the way they were. Similarly, I gained a much deeper understanding of competitive strategy, and was exposed to areas, such as manufacturing, that I hadn't really thought about before. I learned a lot and I am quite sure that this knowledge made me better at my job. For example, in looking at features to include in an architecture, I applied my new knowledge in competitive strategy to help to evaluate that feature's benefits. I am a big fan of education in general, but I especially recommend such "broadening" education as an MBA to any technical person, even if they plan to stay in their professional area for the rest of their career. -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: jthorn@galileo.thp.univie.ac.at (Jonathan Thornburg) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 10 Feb 2002 20:14:17 +0100 Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut), Golm, Germany Sender: Jonathan Thornburg References: Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: galileo.thp.univie.ac.at X-Trace: 1013368468 news.univie.ac.at 32768 131.130.14.54 X-Complaints-To: news-adm@news.univie.ac.at Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!news.univie.ac.at!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101339 In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) >that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are >allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero >understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their >business. In article , responded >My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >lobotomy. Classic geek definition: tie: [noun] A device for restricting blood flow to the brain. -- -- Jonathan Thornburg Max-Planck-Institut fuer Gravitationsphysik (Albert-Einstein-Institut), Golm, Germany http://www.aei.mpg.de/~jthorn/home.html "Space travel is utter bilge" -- common misquote of UK Astronomer Royal Richard Woolley's remrks of 1956 "All this writing about space travel is utter bilge. To go to the moon would cost as much as a major war." -- what he actually said ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:47:04 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013371207 nnrp-02:19798 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101357 According to Stephen Fuld : > I am sure you do think that, but over in some "alt.marketing" group there is > someone posting about how they think "it's absurd (if not obscene) that in > the "professions" of management and product development, people are alowed, > (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero understanding or > interest in the basic marketing and competitive strategy workings of their > business." :-) > > After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, > so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically > important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. True, but that's why we have marketing departments and why they should have some knowledge of what the products are, what they do and why a potential customer would benefit from having them; perhaps there is some onus on the techies to make more of an effort to involve marketing people, but this is sometimes difficult because of various "ivory tower" situations. I suppose a lot of this is borne out of frustration of working for DEC a few years back: if there's one company that should never have gone out of business it's them, they had an extremely solid and attractive product base, but nobody ever got to hear about it. > Sure, it would be good if everyone had knowledge of all areas, and for > senior management, at least some exposure to most of those aspects is even > more important. But the technical people are often at least as "out of the > real picture" as the marketing people. :-( > > Of course, I am NOT personally indicting anyone here :-) Perhaps, but my main bugbear is probably managers who want to interfere with technical decisions rather than delegating them in their entirety to people who actually know about it, combined with the refusal to either learn or listen, and when they demand the impossible to come out with some exasperated phrase that the techies should "just get on with it" even when the smallest amount of knowledge of the field would tell them that some of the requests are highly impractical, counterproductive or just plain impossible, especially given the oft quoted timescales. One particular problem I've encountered myself with certain managers is an insurmountable arrogance, taking the form of "I'm a manager, you're not, therefore I know more than you, plus I earn several times as much as you so I *must* be more intelligent." No, that isn't from too many readings of Dilbert, it is something I have experienced myself on more occasions than I care to remember. Chris. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 11:38:40 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbvgkBZYbNcYdzOUYAoASFklMemOENLFH9kVje8cvosuKBXANGyrCOi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 13:52:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-146 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101411 In article <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at>, jthorn@galileo.thp.univie.ac.at (Jonathan Thornburg) wrote: >In article , >cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) >>that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are >>allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero >>understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their >>business. > >In article , responded >>My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >>lobotomy. > >Classic geek definition: >tie: [noun] A device for restricting blood flow to the brain. > The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. And I made sure my hair was always tied up. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ####### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 11:41:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYNjfAXuEvOgdqVeEN2ZLEeT3QXhF4dO3jvtjrmr2O7tw/+8K8kZGzr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 13:54:31 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-146 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101427 In article , "Stephen Fuld" wrote: > > wrote in message news:a4647m$5g2$2@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article , >> cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >> >According to Nick Maclaren : >> >> Rumour has it that the technical staff at HP wanted to, but the senior >> >> (read: political) people overrode them, because the Intel decisions >> >> were all taken by suits (i.e. political and marketing executives) >> >> and Intel were not prepared to reconsider. >> > >> >Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) >> >that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are >> >allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero >> >understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their >> >business. >> >> My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >> lobotomy. > > >My experience is just the opposite. I was about 13 years out of >undergraduate school, with a career in programming and architecture when I >went back to school to get an MBA (Executive MBA, so I kept my job while in >school). I found it enlightening. There was so much more to business that >I had not understood. For example, I sort of knew what accounting was >supposed to do, but after my accounting class, I had a much better >understanding of what all those numbers really meant (Of course, this was >pre Enron!) and why they were the way they were. Similarly, I gained a much >deeper understanding of competitive strategy, and was exposed to areas, such >as manufacturing, that I hadn't really thought about before. I learned a >lot and I am quite sure that this knowledge made me better at my job. For >example, in looking at features to include in an architecture, I applied my >new knowledge in competitive strategy to help to evaluate that feature's >benefits. > >I am a big fan of education in general, but I especially recommend such >"broadening" education as an MBA to any technical person, even if they plan >to stay in their professional area for the rest of their career. > That's how it's supposed to work. I learned about some of that stuff by listening to the poor managers doing the blue and beige books, pining for the good ol' days when all they had to do was code and debug it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 02 11:43:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbjrPoapsEkWCFSWqgLS4B5Tc1th1z77oRfCQ0t3RM08bvOJc5/U3QP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 13:57:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-146 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101421 In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Stephen Fuld : >> I am sure you do think that, but over in some "alt.marketing" group there is >> someone posting about how they think "it's absurd (if not obscene) that in >> the "professions" of management and product development, people are alowed, >> (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero understanding or >> interest in the basic marketing and competitive strategy workings of their >> business." :-) >> >> After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, >> so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically >> important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. > >True, but that's why we have marketing departments and why they should >have some knowledge of what the products are, what they do and why a >potential customer would benefit from having them; perhaps there is some >onus on the techies to make more of an effort to involve marketing >people, but this is sometimes difficult because of various "ivory tower" >situations. I suppose a lot of this is borne out of frustration of >working for DEC a few years back: if there's one company that should >never have gone out of business it's them, they had an extremely solid >and attractive product base, but nobody ever got to hear about it. > >> Sure, it would be good if everyone had knowledge of all areas, and for >> senior management, at least some exposure to most of those aspects is even >> more important. But the technical people are often at least as "out of the >> real picture" as the marketing people. :-( >> >> Of course, I am NOT personally indicting anyone here :-) > >Perhaps, but my main bugbear is probably managers who want to interfere >with technical decisions rather than delegating them in their entirety >to people who actually know about it, combined with the refusal to either >learn or listen, and when they demand the impossible to come out with >some exasperated phrase that the techies should "just get on with it" >even when the smallest amount of knowledge of the field would tell them >that some of the requests are highly impractical, counterproductive or >just plain impossible, especially given the oft quoted timescales. One >particular problem I've encountered myself with certain managers is an >insurmountable arrogance, taking the form of "I'm a manager, you're not, >therefore I know more than you, plus I earn several times as much as you >so I *must* be more intelligent." No, that isn't from too many readings >of Dilbert, it is something I have experienced myself on more occasions >than I care to remember. The very first thing, that a new supervisor of JMF and TW learned, was that he worked _for_ them...not the other way around. The ones who did not learn that (or accept it) did not survive in that job. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:51:03 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101373 In article , Stephen Fuld wrote: | After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, | so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically | important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. Yes, but this is assuming the product fails because the market didn't really want or need it. It implies that engineering didn't understand what the customer needed. This is true in some cases, but not all of them. In fact, a great many of them are because marketing derailed a product that customers may have wanted. Also, the market cannot always be the best decision maker, especially when it doesn't know enough to choose the best products. There are many products that customers know very little about, and so the market often decides to support the worst products. Worse, marketing often sets up this very situation by limiting the good alternatives, or de-educating the customers. Ignorance is big money. So is forcing decisions that don't make sense, like binding a customer to N products for every 1 he really wants. Their should be a certain responsibility and discipline in any industry to provide what is needed, even if it is occasionally at odds with what is wanted, or what marketing would like to shove down people's throats. At the same time education is a key part of this, and of course the typical customer does far too little of this, even when marketing is not deliberately working against them. After all, we _are_ capable of good engineering and good marketing at the same time. At the same time it is good for engineers to take business classes, I think it would be even more beneficial if business people took a few engineering classes, and things like "social impact of computing" and "engineering ethics" should be mandatory. There are things I remember from those classes that are completely foreign ideas to most suits I have met. The best business people I have worked with in fact, had taken technical classes. I even remember one woman remarking about how after having taken them, she doesn't understand why her business school didn't have impact and ethics requirements. I have gotten positive results by teaching suits simple programming or reviewing a program they have requested in detail. There is almost never time for this, but it does often have positive effects when you can afford the time. The biggest thing is that most of them are amazed at how much of the code is often involved in error checking, self-auditing, and auditing of data outside that programs control. It usually has never occured to them that a program might have to anticipate errors made by others programs or by humans "upstream". But like I said, time is usually not there, and I've found many times that the business people have no interest in the experiment. This, despite requiring me to learn their job and attend their meetings with great frequency. Maybe in the future I will try to encourage this sort of thing more often. I think it's useful. ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 93 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:32:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.161.138 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013394740 12.72.161.138 (Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:32:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:32:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101407 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:oni64a.m64.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to Stephen Fuld : > > I am sure you do think that, but over in some "alt.marketing" group there is > > someone posting about how they think "it's absurd (if not obscene) that in > > the "professions" of management and product development, people are alowed, > > (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero understanding or > > interest in the basic marketing and competitive strategy workings of their > > business." :-) > > > > After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, > > so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically > > important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. > > True, but that's why we have marketing departments and why they should > have some knowledge of what the products are, what they do and why a > potential customer would benefit from having them; perhaps there is some > onus on the techies to make more of an effort to involve marketing > people, but this is sometimes difficult because of various "ivory tower" > situations. I suppose a lot of this is borne out of frustration of > working for DEC a few years back: if there's one company that should > never have gone out of business it's them, they had an extremely solid > and attractive product base, but nobody ever got to hear about it. I don't know the full DEC story first hand, but a few comments from someone in the industry who observed from the outside. I always thought of DEC as having essentially technical marketing - the guys who would talk with the customer engineers directly and see how they were using their PDP 11s and such. It is one of the resasons for their early success, especially in technical markets. Where they got into trouble was trying to apply that success in the straight business market because they couldn't see that the business guys they were trying to sell to had little patience for the kind of things that had come to be taken for granted in the technical markets. Wasn't it the ultimate "techie" at DEC (Ken Olsen) who said no one would want a PC? I am sure there are many reasons for DEC's ultimate demise, and I am sure both your position and mine (and lots of others) have some truth. I think yours is too simplistic to be the total cause. > > Sure, it would be good if everyone had knowledge of all areas, and for > > senior management, at least some exposure to most of those aspects is even > > more important. But the technical people are often at least as "out of the > > real picture" as the marketing people. :-( > > > > Of course, I am NOT personally indicting anyone here :-) > > Perhaps, but my main bugbear is probably managers who want to interfere > with technical decisions rather than delegating them in their entirety > to people who actually know about it, combined with the refusal to either > learn or listen, and when they demand the impossible to come out with > some exasperated phrase that the techies should "just get on with it" > even when the smallest amount of knowledge of the field would tell them > that some of the requests are highly impractical, counterproductive or > just plain impossible, especially given the oft quoted timescales. One > particular problem I've encountered myself with certain managers is an > insurmountable arrogance, taking the form of "I'm a manager, you're not, > therefore I know more than you, plus I earn several times as much as you > so I *must* be more intelligent." No, that isn't from too many readings > of Dilbert, it is something I have experienced myself on more occasions > than I care to remember. Sure. But there have also been many times where the manager knew something about the market or the corporate situation that the engineers didn't appreciate. Also, setting engineering schedules is a tough task. I think we all know people who can make almost any schedule, lots of people who can make reasonable schedules, etc. But I have noticed that when schedules are "fat", many people relax some and pace themselves too much at the beginning, wo when the inevitable problems hit, they are always late, and would be even if the schedule were longer to begin with. All I am saying is that there is enough "right" and enough "blame" for both sides here. -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### Message-ID: <3C6756A2.6E50BB18@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1013398129 12.237.69.87 (Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:28:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:28:49 GMT Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 03:28:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101489 Chris Hedley wrote: > > According to Nick Maclaren : > > Rumour has it that the technical staff at HP wanted to, but the senior > > (read: political) people overrode them, because the Intel decisions > > were all taken by suits (i.e. political and marketing executives) > > and Intel were not prepared to reconsider. > > Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) > that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are > allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero > understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their > business. > "The people who control the technology do *not* understand it; the people who understand the technology do *not* control it." -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 11 Feb 2002 09:14:37 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: libra.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!nmm1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101452 In article , Stephen Fuld wrote: > wrote in message news:a4647m$5g2$2@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article , >> >> My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >> lobotomy. > >My experience is just the opposite. I was about 13 years out of >undergraduate school, with a career in programming and architecture when I >went back to school to get an MBA (Executive MBA, so I kept my job while in >school). I found it enlightening. There was so much more to business that >I had not understood. ... My experience is that it has nothing to do with qualifications, and a lot to do with the phenomena of power corrupting and most people deriving their thoughts from what they hear (rather than vice versa). But this is drifting rather. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: nmm1@cam.ac.uk Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:38:48 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <3C6756A2.6E50BB18@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013432405 nnrp-02:12401 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101393 According to Charles Richmond : > "The people who control the technology do *not* understand it; > the people who understand the technology do *not* control it." Interesting quote (and sadly true!) Where does it come from? Chris. ###### From: Roberto Maria Avanzi Mocenigo Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:23:20 +0100 Organization: La Succursale "Sangiovese" della Fattoria di Nonna Papera Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3C67C5C8.2090605@exp-math.uni-essen.de> References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> Reply-To: mocenigo@exp-math.uni-essen.de NNTP-Posting-Host: sangiovese.exp-math.uni-essen.de (132.252.150.225) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1013433736 47247432 132.252.150.225 (16 [7242]) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.8+) Gecko/20020210 X-Accept-Language: en-us Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!nntp.infostrada.it!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!sangiovese.exp-math.uni-essen.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101454 Chris Hedley wrote: > > Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) > that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are > allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero > understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their > business. Oh, well, Dilbert is, sadly, NOT fiction. Roberto -- _/ Roberto Maria Avanzi Mocenigo <>< / Institut fuer Experimentelle Mathematik / Uni Essen ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:30:01 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101366 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: |>>My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of |>>lobotomy. |> |>Classic geek definition: |>tie: [noun] A device for restricting blood flow to the brain. |> | The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the | stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad | I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. | And I made sure my hair was always tied up. I cannot think of any case where ties make sense. I can understand dressing neatly, but I challenge anyone to come up with a rational justification for mandating a tie. Not only does a tie serve no purpose, it can and often does have a detrimental effect on the person, even to the point of adversely affecting his professionalism. I am sure a logical, rational woman feels the same about some of the contraptions they are sometimes forced to wear. To me, things like people being labeled unprofessional for not wearing uncomfortable and unhealthy clothing is a form of mass insanity. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 11 Feb 2002 19:23:21 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1013455401 6502 134.117.136.30 (11 Feb 2002 19:23:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Feb 2002 19:23:21 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!feeder.qis.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101440 Charles Shannon Hendrix (shannon@widomaker.com) writes: > > I can understand dressing neatly, but I challenge anyone to come up with > a rational justification for mandating a tie. Mandatory in your better class of private schools, eg. Ridley College. > > Not only does a tie serve no purpose, it can and often does have > a detrimental effect on the person, even to the point of adversely > affecting his professionalism. Or life, when caught in a lathe. The Trandata 4000 and similar daisy wheel terminals had a penchant for snagging them too. > > I am sure a logical, rational woman feels the same about some of the > contraptions they are sometimes forced to wear. Sometimes a bra Is A Good Thing. B-) > > To me, things like people being labeled unprofessional for not wearing > uncomfortable and unhealthy clothing is a form of mass insanity. > Hence the existance of nudist camps. ###### Message-ID: <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:00:16 +0100 From: Bernd Paysan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: de, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.139.17.38 X-Trace: 1013432402 read.news.de.uu.net 185 194.139.17.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@de.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!oleane.net!oleane!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!read.news.de.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101478 Stephen Fuld schrieb: > After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, > so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically > important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. My personal opinion is that marketing people can't stand success driven by other people. It's something we as engineers also know, we call it NiH-syndrome. Simple example: If Alpha did sell well, we all would attribute that to it's technical excellence. However, Alpha doesn't sell well, so we attribute it to marketing incompetence (the famous stealth marketing by DEC). On the other hand, Intel sells well, and it even sold well when it was quite technically inferior (not only marginally, like it is now). We attribute this to a marketing success. The marketing people at DEC had no chance to get acknowledge for their jobs, if they did their jobs right. So they decided to do their jobs wrong. By doing so, they at least got the blame, so their importance was acknowledged. There are other simple business reasons for technically good products falling back into a niche, while technically inferiour products flood the world. One reason is that you can sell a technically superiour product at a higher margin. It sells because the customers that are already buying it have to buy it. Inferiour products however sell (first) at cut-throat margins, and seek for new niches every day (because only mass production can cover the development effort). -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:24:48 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-135-52.btinternet.com X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013466288 12032 213.1.135.52 (11 Feb 2002 22:24:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:24:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101546 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote in message news:slrna6g38o.f2.shannon@daydream.shannon.net... > In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: [SNIP] > I cannot think of any case where ties make sense. Trust me, a medium weight merino 3 piece suit with a nice thick silk tie are a bonus for London in Winter. Also a tailored suit is a lot better than an off-the -peg suit from the highstreet. More comfortable and tougher unless you choose a poor fabric. Once you've seen a tailored suit and an off-the-peg side by side you will be able to recognise the difference from at least 20 yards. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> Organization: Me, Myself and I X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) From: mrr@reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 107 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:13:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.26.5 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@KPNQwest.no X-Trace: nreader2.kpnqwest.net 1013476381 193.71.26.5 (Tue, 12 Feb 2002 02:13:01 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 02:13:01 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.esat.net!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nloc.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!nreader2.kpnqwest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101563 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >|>>My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >|>>lobotomy. All good courses have a certain set of indoctrination included. (loose quote from a professor of Law i know). Just look at how they play around with vocabulary; and teach models of understanding. Every curriculum has one of these; Physics, Law, Economics (OK, Economists never agree; there are several models active at any one time in that field.), Computer science etc. Seen from the outside this just looks like ritualistic gibberish; and it is if you don't grasp what you are doing. Which make the middle managers that only half grasp management so trapped. Advanced out of the field they really know, but just into a limbo of PHBs, dancing after the current corporate tactics. Since I know the field I love to tear them apart when they don't do their budgets right. If they are nasty about it this is done in public. >|>Classic geek definition: >|>tie: [noun] A device for restricting blood flow to the brain. But then; you miss a lot of social events if you don't know how to dress. These social events are important. In a lot of them very important things happen. While there you need to look sharp to be taken seriously. (and you can get away with more if you look good in the media). This is another ritual. It looks like gibberish if you don't understand it. IBM understands this very well. So did the Beatles' manager. The best subversives are the ones let unsuspectingly into the boardrooms. If you don't believe me, look at the dresscodes of the far left communist parties. Would you dress up if the occation was lecturing for half the mayors in your country about your pet projects for a solid day ? >|> >| The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the >| stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad >| I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. >| And I made sure my hair was always tied up. > >I cannot think of any case where ties make sense. IBM never sold just computers. IBM sold trust. Just as banks do. This is the reason your bank has dressed up a lot for you. Even the buildings are dressed up. Even the service tech was a bringer of that image. Therefore the suit. When you get that image of thust you don't hesitate to pay the hefty bill. This was right for IBM. It would be wrong for a company like DEC. DEC sold competence and solid iron. This is all about style. Your dress reflects that style a lot. The dotcoms never had style. Nor did they know their finance. >I can understand dressing neatly, but I challenge anyone to come up with >a rational justification for mandating a tie. > >Not only does a tie serve no purpose, it can and often does have >a detrimental effect on the person, even to the point of adversely >affecting his professionalism. I have a dual background; with both a degree in Economics/Financs and extensive techincal background (but no degree). I worked ten years in and around the Stock Exchange. When you are to tell the boss of one of the largest companies in your country that unless he complies with demands within a week he will have his company delisted you DO dress to the event. Likewise when heads of state visit. That was one thing about working in such a high-profile place, you NEVER know what will happen. (It WILL be an interesting day when the press blocks the entrance to your office. The measure of a Big Event is making the front pages. _ALL_ of them.) Having a job in the borderland between computer sciencs and technical finance meant I kept several changes of attire in my office. The job was about things like doing the technical (financial tech, that is) drudgery of constructing an options index and also doing the technical (computer tech) implementation of it. (it was separately implemented three times on different production systems BTW). And then hand-hold a lot of clients about how they could shadow-compute this, even to the point of teaching them to code state machines. Change of dress after the role. Financial hacks (they use the word hack, not hacker) wear dark pinstripe. Computer hackers don't. And then I had to dress down to work in the ISP market!. >I am sure a logical, rational woman feels the same about some of the >contraptions they are sometimes forced to wear. > >To me, things like people being labeled unprofessional for not wearing >uncomfortable and unhealthy clothing is a form of mass insanity. Now, the sharp clothing needs to be comfortable. This is when things get EXPENSIVE. Like Savile Row tailor. -- mrr That was a good days contribution in thread drift. ###### Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: Organization: Me, Myself and I X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) From: mrr@reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Originator: mrr@reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) Message-ID: Lines: 75 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:13:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.71.26.5 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@KPNQwest.no X-Trace: nreader2.kpnqwest.net 1013476382 193.71.26.5 (Tue, 12 Feb 2002 02:13:02 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 02:13:02 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.160.102.MISMATCH!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!nslave.kpnqwest.net!nloc.kpnqwest.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!nreader2.kpnqwest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101562 In article , Chris Hedley wrote: >According to Stephen Fuld : >> I am sure you do think that, but over in some "alt.marketing" group there is >> someone posting about how they think "it's absurd (if not obscene) that in >> the "professions" of management and product development, people are alowed, >> (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero understanding or >> interest in the basic marketing and competitive strategy workings of their >> business." :-) >> >> After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, >> so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically >> important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. > >True, but that's why we have marketing departments and why they should >have some knowledge of what the products are, what they do and why a >potential customer would benefit from having them; perhaps there is some >onus on the techies to make more of an effort to involve marketing >people, but this is sometimes difficult because of various "ivory tower" >situations. I suppose a lot of this is borne out of frustration of >working for DEC a few years back: if there's one company that should >never have gone out of business it's them, they had an extremely solid >and attractive product base, but nobody ever got to hear about it. DEC is an excellent example of a company that made excellent products but never understood the basic economics of the market they were selling in. They sold computers; their customers mostly wanted trusted systems. When they finally woke up it was pathetic to watch them catch up. They made two huge mistakes. Number one was they never adressed the customers customer. This is essential when you sell to businesses. Your customers can be pissed as hell if their customers insist on them having your products. IBM excelled in this respect. Currently Oracle owns their customers for the very same reason. You need a high profile to do this. Number two was they never moved with the market, from fear of cannibaliizing their existing products. That is how they lost the PC market. It hey had done it right we would have had the PC server market active (as a separate market) 10 years earlier; in around 1986 instead of 1996). DEC could have owned it. Instead they went defensive over the mini. OK, VMS systems lasted 4 more years, but then it was all over. If you don't cannibalize your own product, someone else will. > >> Sure, it would be good if everyone had knowledge of all areas, and for >> senior management, at least some exposure to most of those aspects is even >> more important. But the technical people are often at least as "out of the >> real picture" as the marketing people. :-( >> >> Of course, I am NOT personally indicting anyone here :-) > >Perhaps, but my main bugbear is probably managers who want to interfere >with technical decisions rather than delegating them in their entirety >to people who actually know about it, combined with the refusal to either >learn or listen, and when they demand the impossible to come out with >some exasperated phrase that the techies should "just get on with it" >even when the smallest amount of knowledge of the field would tell them >that some of the requests are highly impractical, counterproductive or >just plain impossible, especially given the oft quoted timescales. One >particular problem I've encountered myself with certain managers is an >insurmountable arrogance, taking the form of "I'm a manager, you're not, >therefore I know more than you, plus I earn several times as much as you >so I *must* be more intelligent." No, that isn't from too many readings >of Dilbert, it is something I have experienced myself on more occasions >than I care to remember. Seeing dead end projects is nothing new. Communicating this clearly and comprehensively to management is a challenge, but it is doable. Making a budget for the thing is often a killer strategy; because then you will have allies in the finance dept; and they like to interfere everywhere; especially when someone wants to cut costs. :-) -- mrr ###### From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:49:17 +0100 Organization: MediaSec Technologies GmbH Lines: 10 Message-ID: <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: mediasec.de (212.28.225.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1013503751 47564332 212.28.225.10 (16 [125976]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mediasec.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101506 > The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the > stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad > I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. > And I made sure my hair was always tied up. Yep. Did they also mandate you had to take your tie off when, for instance, servicing a disk drive? If not, they would have exposed them to liability suits 8-) all around when the ineveitable accident happened... Jan ###### From: eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 12 Feb 2002 09:02:26 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hortensia.etek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 1013504546 1204 129.16.32.92 (12 Feb 2002 09:02:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2002 09:02:26 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!212.37.1.10!newsfeed01.nntp.se.dataphone.net!nntp.se.dataphone.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101540 wrote: > "Stephen Fuld" wrote: >> wrote in message news:a4647m$5g2$2@bob.news.rcn.net... >>> >>> My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >>> lobotomy. >> >>My experience is just the opposite. <<>> >>I found it enlightening. <<>> >That's how it's supposed to work. I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. Most MBA's I've encountered really ought to have been forced to give up their PhD/Msc titles. "Good people" benefit from education (regardless of its subject), "bad people" won't get better just because of a title. /Andreas ###### From: eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 12 Feb 2002 09:14:53 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hortensia.etek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 1013505293 1274 129.16.32.92 (12 Feb 2002 09:14:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Feb 2002 09:14:53 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101542 Stephen Fuld wrote: >"Chris Hedley" wrote in message <<>> >> particular problem I've encountered myself with certain managers is an >> insurmountable arrogance, taking the form of "I'm a manager, you're not, >> therefore I know more than you, plus I earn several times as much as you >> so I *must* be more intelligent." > >Sure. But there have also been many times where the manager knew something >about the market or the corporate situation that the engineers didn't >appreciate. Then they need to explain that. Management isn't only about having "technical" abilities in marketing etc, it's also about the elusive concept of leadership. This is where IME most managers fail; they might have some reason for what they are doing, but they run around pissing people of, don't listen and/or respond to arguments, never gives any reason to why decisions are taken etc. >Also, setting engineering schedules is a tough task. And it requires either experience or a knack for finding out who has the experience/knowledge plus actually using that input. >All I am saying is that there is enough "right" and enough "blame" for both >sides here. Hear, hear. /Andreas ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <8Vba8.587$Nf3.44443@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:03:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.161.146 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013533380 12.72.161.146 (Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:03:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:03:00 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101528 "Jan C. Vorbrüggen" wrote in message news:3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de... > > The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the > > stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad > > I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. > > And I made sure my hair was always tied up. > > Yep. Did they also mandate you had to take your tie off when, for instance, > servicing a disk drive? No - you just don't get the old IBM environment :-) When servicing equipment where the suit could get dirty or a tie could be a hazard, they put white lab coats over their suits! -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: shannon@widomaker.com (Shannon) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:34:37 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!shannon Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101549 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: >Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote in message >news:slrna6g38o.f2.shannon@daydream.shannon.net... >> In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >[SNIP] >> I cannot think of any case where ties make sense. > >Trust me, a medium weight merino 3 piece suit with a >nice thick silk tie are a bonus for London in Winter. >Also a tailored suit is a lot better than an off-the >-peg suit from the highstreet. More comfortable and >tougher unless you choose a poor fabric. Once you've >seen a tailored suit and an off-the-peg side by side >you will be able to recognise the difference from >at least 20 yards. :) ..which doesn't show in any way that a tie makes sense... :) Besides, winter khakis, a nice shetland sweater, and a good coat will make you a lot warmer than any suit, in London or the arctic. -- shannon@widomaker.com _________________________________________________ ______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexenstentialist "And in billows of might swell the Saxons before her,-- Unite, oh unite! Or the billows burst o'er her!" -- Downfall of the Gael ###### From: Marco S Hyman Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 12 Feb 2002 09:55:24 -0800 Organization: S.N.A.F.U. -- http://www.snafu.org/ Lines: 9 Sender: marc@hana.snafu.org Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: hana.snafu.org (64.174.80.154) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1013537825 48369284 64.174.80.154 (16 [97260]) X-Orig-Path: hana.snafu.org!nobody User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!hana.snafu.ORG!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101537 Jan C. Vorbrüggen writes: > Yep. Did they also mandate you had to take your tie off when, for instance, > servicing a disk drive? If not, they would have exposed them to liability > suits 8-) all around when the ineveitable accident happened... Printer drums were worse. Can you say "clip on" tie? // marc ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 12 Feb 2002 20:31:19 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101511 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >Just look at how they play around with vocabulary; and teach models of >understanding. Every curriculum has one of these; Physics, Law, >Economics (OK, Economists never agree; You're wrong about that :) >there are several models >active at any one time in that field.), >Seen from the outside this just looks like ritualistic gibberish; Yeah, but one of the reasons that we have several models is that we're cleaning out the older ritualistic gibberish and replacing it with science . . . as one of our giants (Samuelson) commented, the field is progressing one funeral at a time . . . those that have received Ph.D.'s in the past 10 years or so don't quite see eye to eye with those near retirement--who got theirs before the switch to science really started (err, at least in force--there's some clear exceptions). hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 12 Feb 2002 20:32:24 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101512 In article <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de>, Jan C. Vorbrüggen wrote: >> The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the >> stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad >> I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. >> And I made sure my hair was always tied up. >Yep. Did they also mandate you had to take your tie off when, for instance, >servicing a disk drive? If not, they would have exposed them to liability >suits 8-) all around when the ineveitable accident happened... Nops, not in the U.S. Workman's Compensation pays regardless of fault, but far less than the tort payment would be. Still, the larger number of hanged employees would increase those premiums . . . hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 11:18:50 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVa9fSfkQIICWEvMFA+0hGFQuRun4SIxrJ+KMVdSlnRCGoFEFh4Yjy6L X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:32:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-33 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101655 In article , ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: >Charles Shannon Hendrix (shannon@widomaker.com) writes: >> To me, things like people being labeled unprofessional for not wearing >> uncomfortable and unhealthy clothing is a form of mass insanity. >> > Hence the existance of nudist camps. Not in Michigan in January. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 11:26:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbK7Ch4bNxOtYI7cPMlhIz4ptIMURNrkBLkXmkRG/ZlY6+BF6BiH9RY X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:40:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-33 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101647 In article <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= wrote: >> The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the >> stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad >> I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. >> And I made sure my hair was always tied up. > >Yep. Did they also mandate you had to take your tie off when, for instance, >servicing a disk drive? If not, they would have exposed them to liability >suits 8-) all around when the ineveitable accident happened... You must be young. :-) I'm talking about the days before liability became a career path. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 11:28:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaWoP4uZQlHbdbTT5G7nQ00IOtrseQcqk4a3d7JaEacxzk0m0gt3N8i X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:42:41 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-33 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101651 In article , hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) wrote: >In article , >Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >>In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>| The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the >>| stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad >>| I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. >>| And I made sure my hair was always tied up. > >>I cannot think of any case where ties make sense. > >>I can understand dressing neatly, but I challenge anyone to come up with >>a rational justification for mandating a tie. > >Silly easterner. It's real tough to hold a necktie party for the >varmits that robbed the bank if the guest of honor doesn't have a tie >around his neck . . . > >>I am sure a logical, rational woman feels the same about some of the >>contraptions they are sometimes forced to wear. > >I trust that you are not among those who run sharp metal across their >throats? > >Ties were clearly invenbted by a woman--why else would pantyhose be >revenge for? Silly man. Pantyhose was liberating. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 11:35:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVavYaOXgpu0/fkpgQY0xfKkZ7Ez0+PHq1ev3+5ke7YEdx0XMxMAfyeO X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:49:29 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-33 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101654 In article , eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: > wrote: >> "Stephen Fuld" wrote: >>> wrote in message news:a4647m$5g2$2@bob.news.rcn.net... >>>> >>>> My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >>>> lobotomy. >>> >>>My experience is just the opposite. ><<>> >>>I found it enlightening. ><<>> >>That's how it's supposed to work. > >I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management >and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering >in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the programming level had a choice of two career paths: management or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less openings for the technical side than the management side. What I saw was people who got their MBAs seemed to forget what business we were in. One of my correspondents thought that this may have happened because the guy might have been a very good engineer but, since he didn't have a knack for management, went by the book formulas. Thus a mess was made. When you hear the business types yakking on TV, they talk about paper pushing. There's very little mention about making widgets. I'm always wondering what somebody does exactly when s/he says they're in "business". So what exactly do they do? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 11:40:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaCa7tG2EgjhizW6lwBbBuI9sPRFrCxuXtn1yIe7uDQuKS9iIpFPTYt X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:53:55 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-33 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101648 In article , mrr@reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) wrote: >In article , >Chris Hedley wrote: >>According to Stephen Fuld : >>> I am sure you do think that, but over in some "alt.marketing" group there is >>> someone posting about how they think "it's absurd (if not obscene) that in >>> the "professions" of management and product development, people are alowed, >>> (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero understanding or >>> interest in the basic marketing and competitive strategy workings of their >>> business." :-) >>> >>> After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, >>> so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically >>> important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. >> >>True, but that's why we have marketing departments and why they should >>have some knowledge of what the products are, what they do and why a >>potential customer would benefit from having them; perhaps there is some >>onus on the techies to make more of an effort to involve marketing >>people, but this is sometimes difficult because of various "ivory tower" >>situations. I suppose a lot of this is borne out of frustration of >>working for DEC a few years back: if there's one company that should >>never have gone out of business it's them, they had an extremely solid >>and attractive product base, but nobody ever got to hear about it. > >DEC is an excellent example of a company that made excellent products >but never understood the basic economics of the market they were selling in. Wrong. >They sold computers; their customers mostly wanted trusted systems. Huh? What the hell is a trusted system? >When they finally woke up it was pathetic to watch them catch up. > >They made two huge mistakes. Number one was they never adressed the >customers customer. Wrong. > This is essential when you sell to businesses. >Your customers can be pissed as hell if their customers insist on them >having your products. IBM excelled in this respect. Currently Oracle >owns their customers for the very same reason. You need a high profile >to do this. > >Number two was they never moved with the market, from fear of >cannibaliizing their existing products. Wrong. Never say never. How the hell do thing DEC got as big it did get if it had _never_ done these things. You just worked for Digital, not DEC. There was a big difference. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 11:44:00 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYqICwcW0V+Vw+DIh8qCg1MfyFc/ffYTp2kmdA4HRC2elKwmubc7E6Q X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 13:57:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-33 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101657 In article , eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: >Stephen Fuld wrote: >>"Chris Hedley" wrote in message ><<>> >>> particular problem I've encountered myself with certain managers is an >>> insurmountable arrogance, taking the form of "I'm a manager, you're not, >>> therefore I know more than you, plus I earn several times as much as you >>> so I *must* be more intelligent." >> >>Sure. But there have also been many times where the manager knew something >>about the market or the corporate situation that the engineers didn't >>appreciate. > >Then they need to explain that. Management isn't only about having >"technical" abilities in marketing etc, it's also about the elusive >concept of leadership. Now just wait one minute. The leadership crap is shit. All I wanted in a boss was somebody who would tell me if I was going in the wrong direction; and in all other cases make sure s/he stayed out of my way. The bosses I had the most trouble with were the ones who thought they had to be my Daddy when I really needed information about company policy and business trends. Leave that leadership crap to politicians and the PC types. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 13:45:02 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVb6JWlB7knKR7nqKvBKubZ2eG7RAhvLpmHPWLQXEXX60WSR7Nqq6Lt4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 15:58:48 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-240 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101628 In article , mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>In article , >> mrr@reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) wrote: >>>DEC is an excellent example of a company that made excellent products >>>but never understood the basic economics of the market they were selling >>in. >> >>>They sold computers; their customers mostly wanted trusted systems. >> >>Huh? What the hell is a trusted system? > > It's a system you programmed yourself (including the C >compiler) from the metal up. I am simply stunned. I would never "trust" a system, even if I had written everything. Haven't you ever heard of Murphy's Law and all of its corrollaries? > .. I don't know DEC well, but I'm >not sure Mr. Reistad is on the right track here. > > Then, another interpretation of 'trusted system' is a >system bought from a company valuable enough to sue if >anything goes seriously wrong. I'd say this applies to the >Versign certificate system and others like it. There are people selling that? Wait. Wrong question. There are people buying that? > > Another is any system so complicated that you can't >understand the flaws. Most computer systems used and >trusted by the general public are like this. Oh, man. I think we're in trouble (where we is anybody in the computing biz). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 13:51:20 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZchi9oyfno+5ketW+vEWDq+rN4VvLlSOV9WXJp2JMiRGFiwP889DBF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 16:05:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-240 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101632 [snip that newsgroup before I get my pinky slapped again ;-)] In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:a4dr5j$adl$11@bob.news.rcn.net... >[SNIP] >> You just worked for Digital, not DEC. There was a big difference. > >Didn't that "We're Digital, not DEC" thing come about in the >year running up to the Compaq deal ? It was a figment of Palmer's imagination that, if everybody avoided saying the word "DEC", all company folklore would go away. It caused immediate moral problems. > >Or was this a much earlier rebranding effort ? I remember >seeing "digital" on just about all the manuals and hardware >from the early 80's. We had it on our memoes in 1971. The DEC vs. digital thing was a subtle psychology change of the corporation. Digital happened when we were supposed to become "professional". The immediate effect of this was we stopped listening to our customers. The way that happened is only "approved" people were allowed to talk and listen to customers. That excluded the ones who did the work. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: shannon@widomaker.com (Shannon) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:56:19 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <31sb4a.im4.ln@escape.shannon.net> References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test74 (May 26, 2000) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 135 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!shannon Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101666 In article , Morten Reistad wrote: >But then; you miss a lot of social events if you don't know how to >dress. Dressing for a social event is different from dressing for work. Also, I've been to a lot without a tie, as remarkable as that may seem. I also have been to more than one, without a tie, where I was better dressed than the others who did. >These social events are important. Artifically in most cases, but yes. I think of social events as something that I want to attend because of who or what is there. Otherwise, I'm generally not going to be there. But them, I'm wierd like that. >In a lot of them very important things happen. While there you need to >look sharp to be taken seriously. If you cannot take someone seriously unless they "look sharp" (whatever that means), you have a problem. If you take people seriously because they look sharp, you have yet another problem. How about we take people seriously that have demostrated they can be? >Would you dress up if the occation was lecturing for half the >mayors in your country about your pet projects for a solid day ? No. Especially not for mayors for a solid day. >IBM never sold just computers. IBM sold trust. Just as banks do. >This is the reason your bank has dressed up a lot for you. Even the >buildings are dressed up. Even the service tech was a bringer of that >image. Therefore the suit. When you get that image of thust you don't >hesitate to pay the hefty bill. What they sell is the appearance of trust. It's very easy for them when you just hand them money. I prefer to make them earn it. I don't get an image of trust from a person in a suit. Tha bank's motive is usually deceptive, so why should a suit make me trust them? Most of the time, when I've been deceived, the deceiver was wearing a suit. If I were to judge things based on statistics, then I'd generally automatically DIStrust someone wearing a suit. A suit will not create trust with me, because trust is risky. I have to take the risk initially, and a suit is rarely a good indication that the risk is minimal. There is no substitute for time in cases of trust. Of course, every suit hopes the people they meet will be in auto-trust mode because those suckers, er, people are the easiest to make money from. >When you are to tell the boss of one of the largest companies in your >country that unless he complies with demands within a week he will have >his company delisted you DO dress to the event. I'm sure that's the way things are done there, but it's illogical. You either have made up your mind to delist him or you haven't. If you have, wearing different clothing should have no effect on your judgement. Make consistent decisions and people will understand that your words mean more than your clothing. >Likewise when heads of state visit. That was one thing about working in >such a high-profile place, you NEVER know what will happen. (It WILL be >an interesting day when the press blocks the entrance to your office. >The measure of a Big Event is making the front pages. _ALL_ of them.) I don't want to be on the front-page no matter what I'm wearing. Having said that, I rather be shown in my Dockers and Cutter-and-Buck than a suit. It's a matter of preference of course. In fact, given the "rules" you have laid out, you'd be better off in a pair of jeans. After all, you can't be taken seriously so the press should leave you alone... :) >Change of dress after the role. Financial hacks (they use the word >hack, not hacker) wear dark pinstripe. Computer hackers don't. I still remember the guys downtown in the financial district who wore the white-shirts and suspenders, with the cloth or leather band around their upper arms. That doesn't really bother me because it's more of a tradition than a mandate. Not all of them wear ties, but all of them wear the white shirt, arm band, and suspenders. Also, you are dead wrong about computer hackers. Some of them dress better than the local bankers, and some of those do so without a tie! >And then I had to dress down to work in the ISP market!. No, you choose to! I used to work in a bank and some days I dressed up, and the next day I might very well show up in jeans. For a "big" meeting we'd rarely dress down, but there was (thankfully) no requirement to dress up either. In fact, in a fit of rational thinking, a veep showed up in Dockers and a sweater to a conference. No doubt he was up to something... :) Being an utter fool though, I took him seriously anyway. >Now, the sharp clothing needs to be comfortable. This is when things >get EXPENSIVE. Like Savile Row tailor. A $1000 tie wrapped around my neck is still a tie, and won't be comfortable. Where did we get this insane idea that a jacket and tie are the only ways to look sharp? But otherwise, yes, it pays to get good stuff. I just wish it was more durable. Even the expensive stuff is high-maintenance. In fact, I now have two purchase plans. I either buy stuff which needs no ironing at all (it's all in the drying and folding technique) or I buy stuff that must be professionally cleaned because they can keep up with it better anyway. It isn't about cost either. In fact, I pay more for my pleated khakis and polo shirts than some people do for their suits. -- shannon@widomaker.com _________________________________________________ ______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexenstentialist "And in billows of might swell the Saxons before her,-- Unite, oh unite! Or the billows burst o'er her!" -- Downfall of the Gael ###### From: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 12 Feb 2002 21:07:18 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: fac13.ds.psu.edu X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: hawk@fac13.ds.psu.edu (Richard E. Hawkins) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101611 In article , Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >| The IBM uniform mandated ties which I always thought was the >| stupidest rule for field service people. I was so glad >| I was a girl when I worked around all of that old IBM equipment. >| And I made sure my hair was always tied up. >I cannot think of any case where ties make sense. >I can understand dressing neatly, but I challenge anyone to come up with >a rational justification for mandating a tie. Silly easterner. It's real tough to hold a necktie party for the varmits that robbed the bank if the guest of honor doesn't have a tie around his neck . . . >I am sure a logical, rational woman feels the same about some of the >contraptions they are sometimes forced to wear. I trust that you are not among those who run sharp metal across their throats? Ties were clearly invenbted by a woman--why else would pantyhose be revenge for? hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign dochawk@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:15:32 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.198.4 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013548532 1806 213.122.198.4 (12 Feb 2002 21:15:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:15:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101670 Shannon wrote in message news:dnjb4a.ua2.ln@escape.shannon.net... [SNIP] > ..which doesn't show in any way that a tie makes sense... :) Well, actually the tie covers the buttons on your shirt so it keeps your front and neck warmer. :) > Besides, winter khakis, a nice shetland sweater, and a good coat will > make you a lot warmer than any suit, in London or the arctic. I don't encounter artic conditions in the office. The closest I come to it are the machine rooms, at which point I'll put my jacket on over my waistcoat. The 3 piece suit is a layered outfit that allows you to precisely control your body temperature in temperate climates. For summer I wear light-middle-weight mohair 2 piece suits, and they are very comfortable. The cashmere/mohair one I've got is like a 2nd skin. There is a often overlooked aspect to wearing a suit, and that's getting a shirt which fits you. I have pretty broad shoulders and hips which means that most shirts are very lose around the waist, this means that suits don't hang right and it feels uncomfortable. I've found that getting shirts made is the best way to deal with this, and it makes a hell of a difference. The best shirts I've had yet were made by Arthur in Crescent St, Montreal. Plus, if you get a nice suit with a good cut and fabric, you look good too. That can help if you're trying to get people take you seriously (what dressing well has to do with coding I dunno). :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:15:33 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013549402 nnrp-14:25444 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101630 According to Shannon : > ..which doesn't show in any way that a tie makes sense... :) > > Besides, winter khakis, a nice shetland sweater, and a good coat will > make you a lot warmer than any suit, in London or the arctic. Which is pretty much what I used to wear when I worked in London. The filthy looks I got from some of the retarded old gits with their expensive suits and briefcases when I got on the train with them was unbelievable. Chris. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:33:22 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.198.4 X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1013549602 7359 213.122.198.4 (12 Feb 2002 21:33:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:33:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101675 Morten Reistad wrote in message news:tdn94a.vot.ln@amanda.reistad.priv.no... [SNIP] > Now, the sharp clothing needs to be comfortable. This is when things > get EXPENSIVE. Like Savile Row tailor. Saville Row tailors can be good, but I think they are grossly over-priced. Take a look around for alternatives, there are a lot of very good craftspeople out there ! Case in point, I didn't see anything which impressed me in Jermyn St. A couple of months later I was blown away by this little place in Montreal... Quality of the fabrics, precision, and attention to detail were a ton better. A lot of these big name Tailors and Chemisiers seem to send stuff off-site for fabrication. I think that it's better if the guy who measures you actually has a direct hand in the fabrication of the garment, because he has more information - namely his eyeballs PLUS measurements. Also, it's a lot quicker. Days rather than weeks. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Bruce Hoult Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> <8Vba8.587$Nf3.44443@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 8 Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:42:05 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.79.124.134 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1013550121 203.79.124.134 (Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:42:01 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:42:01 NZDT Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news02.tsnz.net!bruce Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101687 In article <8Vba8.587$Nf3.44443@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Stephen Fuld" wrote: > No - you just don't get the old IBM environment :-) When servicing > equipment where the suit could get dirty or a tie could be a hazard, they > put white lab coats over their suits! This of course is the reason that computer rooms are air-conditioned. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:07:05 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.200.120 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013609225 9719 213.122.200.120 (13 Feb 2002 14:07:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:07:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101672 wrote in message news:a4dr5j$adl$11@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > You just worked for Digital, not DEC. There was a big difference. Didn't that "We're Digital, not DEC" thing come about in the year running up to the Compaq deal ? Or was this a much earlier rebranding effort ? I remember seeing "digital" on just about all the manuals and hardware from the early 80's. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: mwilson@the-wire.com (Mel Wilson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Message-ID: References: Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: VSoup v1.2.9.37Beta [95/NT] Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:20:21 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.206.39.153 X-Trace: nnrp1.uunet.ca 1013612999 205.206.39.153 (Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:09:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:09:59 EST Organization: UUNET Canada News Reader Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.stealth.net!wesley.videotron.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nnrp1.uunet.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101663 In article , jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > mrr@reistad.priv.no (Morten Reistad) wrote: >>DEC is an excellent example of a company that made excellent products >>but never understood the basic economics of the market they were selling >in. > >>They sold computers; their customers mostly wanted trusted systems. > >Huh? What the hell is a trusted system? It's a system you programmed yourself (including the C compiler) from the metal up. I don't know DEC well, but I'm not sure Mr. Reistad is on the right track here. Then, another interpretation of 'trusted system' is a system bought from a company valuable enough to sue if anything goes seriously wrong. I'd say this applies to the Versign certificate system and others like it. Another is any system so complicated that you can't understand the flaws. Most computer systems used and trusted by the general public are like this. Regards. Mel. ###### Message-ID: <3C6AA64B.403BBE59@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1013615132 12.237.69.87 (Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:45:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:45:32 GMT Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:45:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101688 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > When you hear the business types yakking on TV, they talk about > paper pushing. There's very little mention about making widgets. > I'm always wondering what somebody does exactly when s/he says > they're in "business". So what exactly do they do? > IMHO business is *not* about creating a product, *not* about providing a useful service, *not* about manufacturing a widget... business is about making *money*. That is all. The businessmen worship the almight dollar (or Euro, or whatever). If it destroys your life and everything you accomplished for them to make that dollar (or Euro), then that is just "the cost of doing business". -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:55:09 +0100 Organization: MediaSec Technologies GmbH Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3C6A8C5D.9EFCB286@mediasec.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mediasec.de (212.28.225.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1013615700 48750181 212.28.225.10 (16 [125976]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mediasec.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101606 > Now just wait one minute. The leadership crap is shit. All > I wanted in a boss was somebody who would tell me if I was > going in the wrong direction; and in all other cases make > sure s/he stayed out of my way. The bosses I had the most > trouble with were the ones who thought they had to be my > Daddy when I really needed information about company policy > and business trends. But that _is_ leadership: telling you where the road is, and where the moat is. Playing Daddy is something very different, and also something a leader despises doing. Jan ###### From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:20:50 +0100 Organization: MediaSec Technologies GmbH Lines: 8 Message-ID: <3C6A9262.2DE7131B@mediasec.de> References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: mediasec.de (212.28.225.10) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1013617241 48653703 212.28.225.10 (16 [125976]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!mediasec.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101603 > You must be young. :-) I'm talking about the days before liability > became a career path. Such rules have been in existence for at least a century. Nothing to do with modern liability suits, ambulance chasers et al - just normal corporate responsibility. Jan ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:42:39 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-132-200.btinternet.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1013622159 5460 213.1.132.200 (13 Feb 2002 17:42:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:42:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!news.it.colt.net!peernews2.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101671 wrote in message news:a4e2fo$d03$4@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > I am simply stunned. I would never "trust" a system, even > if I had written everything. Haven't you ever heard of > Murphy's Law and all of its corrollaries? "Never trust a computer too heavy to lift" :) I believe you said -10's were too heavy to lift... I trusted and still do trust T225, T425, T800, T801, and T805 microprocessors. The only time I saw a qualified part fail was when they were so hot they raised a blister if you touched em. I do know that the T414 had "issues" (but that was the first microprocessor that team had ever made), and also the early revs of the T800 had some flaws, the C & D revs were OK though. By 1990 when I got there the OCCAM compiler was very sorted, and I didn't have any hassles with that. That environment stands out in my mind because it's the ONLY one where I didn't have any surprises. If I wrote good code the thing would run it flawlessly. The main reason for this was attention to detail, rigorous design, testing and simplicity. There were caveats when dealing with large DRAM memories because you got the odd cosmic ray flipping a bit. Those parts really needed a parity bit on external memory to make absolutely sure you were safe ! Cheers, Rupert ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:25:27 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: <7i7e4a.r4m.ln@escape.shannon.net> References: <3C6AA64B.403BBE59@ev1.net> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 65 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101707 In article <3C6AA64B.403BBE59@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > When you hear the business types yakking on TV, they talk about > > paper pushing. There's very little mention about making widgets. > > I'm always wondering what somebody does exactly when s/he says > > they're in "business". So what exactly do they do? > > > IMHO business is *not* about creating a product, *not* about > providing a useful service, *not* about manufacturing a widget... > business is about making *money*. That is all. The businessmen > worship the almight dollar (or Euro, or whatever). If it destroys > your life and everything you accomplished for them to make that > dollar (or Euro), then that is just "the cost of doing business". I agree that this is what it is about. However, I don't agree that this is what business _should_ be about. Business is really just an offshoot of the ancient art of trade. We each have something the other wants, so let's do business. Business should be about serving the customer now that it's basically a "trade money for X" system. Any time a business is only there for the money, I think they have lost sight of their purpose. I do "business" with people who have something that either I cannot create on my own, or I find easier to leave to someone else. Too many times though, I find myself doing business with people who have manipulated law and markets to artificially create a need for what they offer. Or, they bundle what I want or need with something I have no use for. No matter what the excuses used for doing this, the bottom line is that it violates what should be the basic rule of business: you only survive so long as you supply a need. A good example is the recording industry. There was a time when you could have argued they were necessary. But now, we have the technology to let artists produce music and distribute it without most of the music industry. We do not need the recording industry. However, over the decades, they have manipulated the market and the law to maintain their position. This does absolutely nothing for the artist or the consumer, even though that is what they keep telling us. Most of the services they do provide, could be had for far less: I have heard the overhead could easily be trimmed by more than 90%. This is a business of making money without regard to wether or not they are really needed. I always look at it like this: If you can no longer survive as a business, look around a little. There is always some gap in service that needs filling. In the long run, "artificial business" really has no place. There is nothing wrong with making money, but I think it has to be first and foremost about providing something to the customer they really want or need. In fact, I'll even argue that the most stable businesses are those which do this, and do so without trying to mandate their existence. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:48:44 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101711 In article , Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > Charles Shannon Hendrix (shannon@widomaker.com) writes: > > > > I can understand dressing neatly, but I challenge anyone to come up with > > a rational justification for mandating a tie. > > Mandatory in your better class of private schools, eg. Ridley College. That's not a justification though... :) > Or life, when caught in a lathe. The Trandata 4000 and similar daisy > wheel terminals had a penchant for snagging them too. One of my former bosses leaned over an industrial strength paper shredder and his tie went in. He had been on a "we should wear ties" thing before so it was somewhat ironic. The worst part of it though was that he wasn't well liked, and the entire department just stood and watched it suck him in. The tie finally broke and released him. He stood up and looked at all of us and we just stared back at him until he went into his office. It was kind of a wierd moment. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 72 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:41:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.232.112 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013625691 12.72.232.112 (Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:41:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:41:31 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101702 wrote in message news:a4dqt9$adl$10@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , > eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: > > wrote: > >> "Stephen Fuld" wrote: > >>> wrote in message > news:a4647m$5g2$2@bob.news.rcn.net... > >>>> > >>>> My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of > >>>> lobotomy. > >>> > >>>My experience is just the opposite. > ><<>> > >>>I found it enlightening. > ><<>> > >>That's how it's supposed to work. > > > >I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management > >and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering > >in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. > > Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the > programming level had a choice of two career paths: management > or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not > to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less > openings for the technical side than the management side. That seems to be a flaw in the way DEC did things. At the very top, sure, but there should be a lot of high level technical slots for people who want to remain technical. See, for example, the IBM fellows for an example of how this could work. > What I saw was people who got their MBAs seemed to forget > what business we were in. > > One of my correspondents thought that this may have happened because > the guy might have been a very good engineer but, since he > didn't have a knack for management, went by the book formulas. Thus > a mess was made. Could be. Being good at some technical discipline is not necessarily a good indicaotr of being good at management. They are different skills. > When you hear the business types yakking on TV, they talk about > paper pushing. There's very little mention about making widgets. > I'm always wondering what somebody does exactly when s/he says > they're in "business". So what exactly do they do? Well, you could enroll in MBA school and find out :-) Seriously, there are about as many different things people in business do as there are that people in engineering do. In general, it is about marshaling the resources available to the firm (people, technology, natural resources, money, its reputation and place in the marketplace, etc.) in order to further the benefits to the stakeholders (owners, employees, vendors, customers and the community). For example, someone in accounting is about making sure that the financial resources of the firm are kept track of correctly and their status reported to the stakeholders. A HR person is about acquiring, maintaining, improving, etc. the human resources available to the firm. A manager in product development is about marshalling the available techology and people toward the goal of producing a product that can make money for the firm. This "marshalling" includes such things as planning, organizing, staffing, directing and controlling those resources. -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:17:36 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 51 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101712 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: > I don't encounter artic conditions in the office. The > closest I come to it are the machine rooms, at which point > I'll put my jacket on over my waistcoat. The 3 piece suit is > a layered outfit that allows you to precisely control your > body temperature in temperate climates. Then why do most suits have the total package on all the time? Why not leave the jacket home on warm days for example? Easy: it's mandated, and so they wear it even when it's 100F. Bizarre. I have watched people sweat when I went out to lunch with them and their rationalizing it was interesting, if somewhat unsettling. > There is a often overlooked aspect to wearing a suit, and that's > getting a shirt which fits you. this, and it makes a hell of a > difference. The best shirts I've had yet were made by Arthur in > Crescent St, Montreal. True, and it would be nice to have the time and money for things like that. I find it difficult enough to find the time and money for my Dockers and Savane pants, various brands of polo, and button-down collar shits. I rather spend the money on something to wear for a night out on the town or a nice show than waste it on something to wear for work. > Plus, if you get a nice suit with a good cut and fabric, you look good > too. That can help if you're trying to get people take you seriously > (what dressing well has to do with coding I dunno). :) I guess I have been lucky. I have been taken very seriously at a very large bank, by people in suits (even some local tailored and Armani) while wearing black jeans and an uncollared Ralph-Lauren shirt. Then again, I think some of them were afraid of me. Maybe it was all the black. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:26:35 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101713 In article , Chris Hedley wrote: > According to Shannon : > > ..which doesn't show in any way that a tie makes sense... :) > > > > Besides, winter khakis, a nice shetland sweater, and a good coat will > > make you a lot warmer than any suit, in London or the arctic. > > Which is pretty much what I used to wear when I worked in London. The > filthy looks I got from some of the retarded old gits with their expensive > suits and briefcases when I got on the train with them was unbelievable. They were just jealous. You were more comfortable and had guts, and that's what really bothered them. People have a scary penchant for conformity without reason that really bothers me. I'm convinced that people don't really like suits. I mean, they don't have a single style preference for anything else like cars, houses, furniture, etc, so why this fixation on a single style of male dress? -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:30:37 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101714 In article , Richard E. Hawkins wrote: > >I can understand dressing neatly, but I challenge anyone to come up with > >a rational justification for mandating a tie. > > Silly easterner. It's real tough to hold a necktie party for the > varmits that robbed the bank if the guest of honor doesn't have a tie > around his neck . . . Heh heh... I'll make 'em a tie for the occasion... > >I am sure a logical, rational woman feels the same about some of the > >contraptions they are sometimes forced to wear. > > I trust that you are not among those who run sharp metal across their > throats? ???? You talking about a razor? I let it go sometimes, but generally keep it trimmed. Otherwise I don't know what you mean. > Ties were clearly invenbted by a woman--why else would pantyhose be > revenge for? No doubt about it. I have heard a lot of women say that high-heels and all that stuff were invented by men, but I usually point out that nothing forces them to wear it. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 13 Feb 02 16:53:40 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 49 Message-ID: <1986.809T2025T10135614@sky.bus.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-366.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101769 In article jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: >Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the >programming level had a choice of two career paths: management >or technical. This has always been pretty standard anywhere I've seen. >You had to be really, really good AND determined not to be a boss >to take the technical path. Besides, you'd be trying to beat the Peter Principle (that's the one which states that a person rises to his or her level of incompetence). >There were a lot less openings for the technical side than the >management side. What I saw was people who got their MBAs seemed >to forget what business we were in. This, too, I believe to be standard. A manager manages, a salesman sells, etc. What they're managing or selling is largely irrelevant. I've seen a number of managers and salesmen leave one firm and pop up in another firm that did something totally different. No big deal, it seemed. >When you hear the business types yakking on TV, they talk about >paper pushing. There's very little mention about making widgets. >I'm always wondering what somebody does exactly when s/he says >they're in "business". So what exactly do they do? You just said it: they're pushing paper. When there's nothing behind the paper you wind up with things like the dot-com bust. I'll always remember a scene from the '70s movie "Joe" (starring Peter Boyle). The businessman who befriended him pointed up at the skyscrapers one night and said something to the effect of: "You see all those buildings? They're full of people whose sole purpose in life is to move paper. And the more paper you move, the more important you are." It was a delightfully cynical movie. No heroes there. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 10:44:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3C68D70D.AC239183@mediasec.de> <3C6A9262.2DE7131B@mediasec.de> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSValJUICGsLe3iTzMZck4IAmmXKb2hotfLE3Ia3+bpX+yn84RhtCE7bS X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2002 12:58:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-6 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101797 [dump that newsgroup] In article <3C6A9262.2DE7131B@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= wrote: >> You must be young. :-) I'm talking about the days before liability >> became a career path. > >Such rules have been in existence for at least a century. Nothing to do >with modern liability suits, ambulance chasers et al - just normal corporate >responsibility. > > Jan Reread what I said. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 10:45:26 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <1013646695snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZPtouQnE3s2hDVdmntf/UFAMdhdHg5DMOD59yabjKesC66DoDGAnSr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2002 12:59:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-6 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101819 In article <1013646695snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >In article jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> Silly man. Pantyhose was liberating. > >It certainly was not; or at least not from a male viewpoint > noted :-). You found it easier to remove girdles? Those needed a pry bar and males rarely had that in their back pocket. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 10:52:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <1013646767snz@dsl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY9ahyzV0KDy7yfCFU5xymECQvtO326Ib3Eks/CbfGOizGAiNpgnJ+M X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2002 13:06:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-6 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101830 In article <1013646767snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote: >In article jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> It was a figment of Palmer's imagination that, if everybody >> avoided saying the word "DEC", all company folklore would go >> away. It caused immediate moral problems. > >MORAL[1] problems??? What were you guys getting up to in Maynard? > >[1] Without an E? > Damn. My fingers were overriding my brain yesterday. Both aspects existed. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 10:56:40 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbnEVwai/2lDScEbr/PnXwTEByBnaogL8Jv45kgA/2oh6WaxJ7fF0NL X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2002 13:10:37 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-6 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101818 In article , "Bill Todd" wrote: > >"Rupert Pigott" wrote in message >news:a4dru5$9fn$1@helle.btinternet.com... >> wrote in message >news:a4dr5j$adl$11@bob.news.rcn.net... >> [SNIP] >> > You just worked for Digital, not DEC. There was a big difference. >> >> Didn't that "We're Digital, not DEC" thing come about in the >> year running up to the Compaq deal ? >> >> Or was this a much earlier rebranding effort ? I remember >> seeing "digital" on just about all the manuals and hardware >> from the early 80's. > >Yup - KO & Co. decided back in the early '80s that 'Digital' >(or perhaps 'digital') was a more impressive name than the >informal 'DEC'. I guess I didn't notice when it got used outside the company. I remember the memo that got distributed saying that all memoes from now on had to have that weird d|i|g|i|t|a|l logo surrounded by *s. Somebody even distributed ASCII templates to prevent production irritation. >For several >years a large portion of the world thought we were a wrist-watch company >(since 'digital' watches were just coming into vogue). Maybe that's why we had those weird lines in between the letters. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 11:00:10 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3C6A8C5D.9EFCB286@mediasec.de> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZGRznnXUCyQTAU8C/uazxgweWUASCL2bAiwPKNN4+B5oYXz6U0O16c X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2002 13:14:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-6 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101803 In article <3C6A8C5D.9EFCB286@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= wrote: >> Now just wait one minute. The leadership crap is shit. All >> I wanted in a boss was somebody who would tell me if I was >> going in the wrong direction; and in all other cases make >> sure s/he stayed out of my way. The bosses I had the most >> trouble with were the ones who thought they had to be my >> Daddy when I really needed information about company policy >> and business trends. > >But that _is_ leadership: telling you where the road is, and where >the moat is. Playing Daddy is something very different, and also >something a leader despises doing. That isn't what got taught in the management classes. Somehow this idiotic notion of "career path" became the "in thing" (it was a side effect of that women's-lib crap). It got so bad that I wanted to throw up anytime I heard the words career path. Every instance of that subject was simply a way to prevent any kind of productive work. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 02 12:28:12 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <140220021315461050%elliott@yrl.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZIYSjxD3Fi/A369asDmwFS9SHetzNjxZT0E5pVjQXLICTOvkOC36BN X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2002 14:42:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsfeed.online.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-169 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101785 [remove that newsgroup] In article <140220021315461050%elliott@yrl.co.uk>, Elliott Roper wrote: >In article , Bill >Todd wrote: > >> "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message >> news:a4dru5$9fn$1@helle.btinternet.com... >> > wrote in message >> news:a4dr5j$adl$11@bob.news.rcn.net... >> > [SNIP] >> > > You just worked for Digital, not DEC. There was a big difference. >> > >> > Didn't that "We're Digital, not DEC" thing come about in the >> > year running up to the Compaq deal ? >> > >> > Or was this a much earlier rebranding effort ? I remember >> > seeing "digital" on just about all the manuals and hardware >> > from the early 80's. >> >> Yup - KO & Co. decided back in the early '80s that 'Digital' (or perhaps >> 'digital') was a more impressive name than the informal 'DEC'. For several >> years a large portion of the world thought we were a wrist-watch company >> (since 'digital' watches were just coming into vogue). >> >Outside the US it was 'd|i|g|i|t|a|l' far earlier than that. There was >always pressure not to say 'DEC'. The 10-folk made a fetish of ignoring >it of course. > >I remember a sweet old thing coming off the street at 123 Willoughby >Road (Sydney) about 1974, and plonking one of those flip down panel >electric clocks on the receptionist's desk. We fixed it for her. It was >easier than explaining. ROTFL. I had never heard this take on the name before now. > >And yep, nobody wanted to be a manager in those days. It was a great >place to work. And a lot got done pretty efficiently too. In the Mill, nobody gave a second thought to talking with any manager, including Ken. It kept everybody honest. We were all on a first name basis, too. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 10:09:12 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZJZO0XsBE5UuGpgrwPMOFqjETeL8ahBmCsv0rNn+ecOjOWwG6jomkV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:23:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101832 In article , eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: > wrote: >> eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: >>> >>>Then they need to explain that. Management isn't only about having >>>"technical" abilities in marketing etc, it's also about the elusive >>>concept of leadership. >> >>Now just wait one minute. The leadership crap is shit. > >Bad leadership is ship, good leadership isn't. > >>All >>I wanted in a boss was somebody who would tell me if I was >>going in the wrong direction; and in all other cases make >>sure s/he stayed out of my way. > >A boss with good leadership abilities would recognise that this was what >you wanted, recognized that you could handle being left alone, and left >you alone, keeping an eye on your job from a distance, occasionally asking >how it's going, occasionally expressing appreciation for the job you've done I didn't want expressed appreciation. That wasn't what the biz was about. >plus giving directives when needed. > >That is leadership; most important thing about it is understanding >individuals (leading huge masses are more a question of rethoric >capabilities). > >>The bosses I had the most >>trouble with were the ones who thought they had to be my >>Daddy when I really needed information about company policy >>and business trends. > >One of the classic examples of bad/no leadership. > >>Leave that leadership crap to politicians and the PC types. > >You've misunderstood what I mean by leadership. Nope. You're still add a PC flavor to it. :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 10:23:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 113 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaU8Pag5hCJmkup6BY66+8ntJVFeQ14WQsJl2Vcv/RNaYSenI1peO/j X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:37:25 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101808 In article , "Stephen Fuld" wrote: > > wrote in message news:a4dqt9$adl$10@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article , >> eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: >> > wrote: >> >> "Stephen Fuld" wrote: >> >>> wrote in message >> news:a4647m$5g2$2@bob.news.rcn.net... >> >>>> >> >>>> My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >> >>>> lobotomy. >> >>> >> >>>My experience is just the opposite. >> ><<>> >> >>>I found it enlightening. >> ><<>> >> >>That's how it's supposed to work. >> > >> >I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management >> >and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering >> >in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. >> >> Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the >> programming level had a choice of two career paths: management >> or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not >> to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less >> openings for the technical side than the management side. > >That seems to be a flaw in the way DEC did things. NOpe. The flaw was when the corportate culture got degree-conscious rather than work-accomplished-conscious. This happened because new hires didn't get broken in adequately. (You guys would call them the suits.) > .. At the very top, sure, >but there should be a lot of high level technical slots for people who want >to remain technical. Why? There wasn't enough work for that level of expertise. There was also the problem of tying salary reviews with job classifications. It was that career path nonsense again. We had a gal who did a damn good job at her tech level. She was in the company for so long that she couldn't get a raise unless she did a "higher-paying" job. Her only choice was to be a supervisor. > .. See, for example, the IBM fellows for an example of >how this could work. > >> What I saw was people who got their MBAs seemed to forget >> what business we were in. >> >> One of my correspondents thought that this may have happened because >> the guy might have been a very good engineer but, since he >> didn't have a knack for management, went by the book formulas. Thus >> a mess was made. > >Could be. Being good at some technical discipline is not necessarily a good >indicaotr of being good at management. They are different skills. Right. Managing is boring to me. > >> When you hear the business types yakking on TV, they talk about >> paper pushing. There's very little mention about making widgets. >> I'm always wondering what somebody does exactly when s/he says >> they're in "business". So what exactly do they do? > >Well, you could enroll in MBA school and find out :-) I tried that. I didn't get past the door of the student-hunting broad. I was wearing jeans and she dismissed me as a lowly factory bot. JMF was embarassed; I was absolutely bullshit. It was my first indication that business was getting into deep, deep trouble. > >Seriously, there are about as many different things people in business do as >there are that people in engineering do. In general, it is about marshaling >the resources available to the firm (people, technology, natural resources, >money, its reputation and place in the marketplace, etc.) in order to >further the benefits to the stakeholders (owners, employees, vendors, >customers and the community). Yea. That's what makes widget-making so facintating. > >For example, someone in accounting is about making sure that the financial >resources of the firm are kept track of correctly and their status reported >to the stakeholders. A HR person is about acquiring, maintaining, >improving, etc. the human resources available to the firm. A manager in >product development is about marshalling the available techology and people >toward the goal of producing a product that can make money for the firm. >This "marshalling" includes such things as planning, organizing, staffing, >directing and controlling those resources. > So there is another person in this world who gets it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 10:28:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 90 Message-ID: References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYgXU5jiUgnNyehANUPxUfPRFS2emg4emyyfjINNEQsmGcl7+59KK6h X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:43:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101833 In article <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Stephen Fuld" wrote: > >"Bill Todd" wrote in message >news:_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >> >> "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message >> news:vrya8.2239$Nv5.211852@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> > >> > wrote in message >> news:a4dqt9$adl$10@bob.news.rcn.net... >> > > In article , >> > > eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: >> >> ... >> >> > > >I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for >> management >> > > >and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in >> engineering >> > > >in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their >> career. >> > > >> > > Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the >> > > programming level had a choice of two career paths: management >> > > or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not >> > > to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less >> > > openings for the technical side than the management side. >> > >> > That seems to be a flaw in the way DEC did things. At the very top, >sure, >> > but there should be a lot of high level technical slots for people who >> want >> > to remain technical. See, for example, the IBM fellows for an example >of >> > how this could work. >> >> It wasn't a flaw, it was simple supply and demand. DEC was awash in very >> competent technical people and desperate for competent managers, so anyone >> with the *slightest* inclination to move over into management was gobbled >up >> if s/he showed the *slightest* promise of being anything other than a >total >> dud. > >I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up >some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with competent >people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be able to do >so, as did many other companies. Did people just not want to live in the >Boston area, or was DEC's compensation plan not adequate? I certainly don't >know the answer, but it might be usefull to figure that out. > > >> Unfortunately (as BAH already said) those who did move over indeed often >> seemed to lose sight of the forest for the trees (i.e., became enmeshed >in, >> and even enamored of, the minutiae of management rather than the goal of >> producing products that met customer needs). And they proliferated out of >> all proportion to the benefits they bestowed upon the company, such being >> the way of bureaucracy. > >OK, so this seems to be a failure of DEC upper management. Why didn't they >realize that the people they were promoting weren't working out well. Because they hired from IBM and such. It was clash of corporate folklore. > .. And >why did they alow more managers than the company needed? Corporote culture included a hands-off style of management. That isn't good when empire builders (who don't know what business we're in) run amok. > . And when they saw >that their then current methods weren't working, why didn't they change? They did change. We got reorganized about every two years. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 10:31:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 80 Message-ID: References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZxocDG4haF0wIgUrkoomh4GzLABd2NLHGTFO5Y0O1+2aEkG2RP93tL X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:45:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101835 In article , "Bill Todd" wrote: > >"Stephen Fuld" wrote in message >news:6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > >.... > >> I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up >> some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with competent >> people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be able to do >> so, as did many other companies. > >DEC wasn't IBM (or many other companies), and didn't wish to be. >Cookie-cutter managers, even competent ones, didn't help that much: a >special breed was needed that the business schools didn't seem to be turning >out (and may still not be). > > Did people just not want to live in the >> Boston area, or was DEC's compensation plan not adequate? I certainly >don't >> know the answer, but it might be usefull to figure that out. >> >> >> > Unfortunately (as BAH already said) those who did move over indeed often >> > seemed to lose sight of the forest for the trees (i.e., became enmeshed >> in, >> > and even enamored of, the minutiae of management rather than the goal of >> > producing products that met customer needs). And they proliferated out >of >> > all proportion to the benefits they bestowed upon the company, such >being >> > the way of bureaucracy. >> >> OK, so this seems to be a failure of DEC upper management. Why didn't >they >> realize that the people they were promoting weren't working out well. And >> why did they alow more managers than the company needed? And when they >saw >> that their then current methods weren't working, why didn't they change? >> These are hard problems to deal with and are one of the reasons why good >> managers are perhaps even rarer than good technical people, and thus >"worth >> their salt". > >I guess any corporate failure can be considered to be a failure of upper >management, but that doesn't necessarily help explain what should have been >done differently. DEC operated (to the degree that *any* model reflected it >well) as a 'matrix' rather than a hierarchical organization, but got so >large by around 1980 that its leadership apparently felt that fiddling with >the structure could improve things. They tried a bunch of approaches, some >conventional and some less so (and as this was not an area I was intimately >involved with I can't offer more detail than that) but all with the goal of >not transforming DEC into a completely different company (i.e., management >was still considered to serve the company's needs rather than the other way >'round). > >In retrospect, one wonders whether continuing the old intelligent, >tech-oriented anarchy might not have worked better. We (PDP-10 product line) sure wanted to try it but never got to. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 10:36:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbK+h1YbsBd3iZ6RUIiCbK+T124/ZPjjdo0s0wGUS5b/zLit0K4fy/o X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:50:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101793 In article , Eric Smith wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> memoes from now on had to have that weird d|i|g|i|t|a|l >.... >> Maybe that's why we had those weird lines in between the letters. > >Surely the lines were just intended to make it look (sort of) like the >graphic logo (reverse letters in boxes)? I don't remember which came first. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 10:40:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <1986.809T2025T10135614@sky.bus.com> <7cSa8.6209$Nf3.372814@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZNXzbTyyE4VziQZC2DgJdw78WRLZx7yacXOtmNyBItNB4gfBs53rv4 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:54:08 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-212 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101800 [nip the newsgroup] In article <7cSa8.6209$Nf3.372814@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Stephen Fuld" wrote: > >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message >news:1986.809T2025T10135614@sky.bus.com... > >snip > >> This, too, I believe to be standard. A manager manages, a salesman >> sells, etc. What they're managing or selling is largely irrelevant. >> I've seen a number of managers and salesmen leave one firm and >> pop up in another firm that did something totally different. >> No big deal, it seemed. > >To some degree yes. If I rephrase it and say that a programmer programs or >an engineer engineers and I have seen programmers "leave one firm and pop up >in another firm that did something totally different" would you say that >can't happen or is stupid? Or are you saying that someone who can program >say graphic systems can't be good programming network systems? I don't >think that is true, and I bet you don't either. I think it's true. Each takes a different style of thinking. There are a few people who can acclimate to other styles; but not many. > >Sure there will be a learning curve for the new subject mater, but many of >the basic skills are the same. This is also true with management and sales. > We are talking about people doing very well at the job. There is learning curves and then there is "knack". I don't know how to describe this but I certainly could recognize when I saw it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 15 Feb 02 08:15:11 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 50 Message-ID: <2271.811T574T4954279@sky.bus.com> References: <1986.809T2025T10135614@sky.bus.com> <7cSa8.6209$Nf3.372814@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-849.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101753 In article <7cSa8.6209$Nf3.372814@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> s.fuld.pleaseremove@att.net (Stephen Fuld) writes: >"Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message >news:1986.809T2025T10135614@sky.bus.com... > >snip > >> This, too, I believe to be standard. A manager manages, a salesman >> sells, etc. What they're managing or selling is largely irrelevant. >> I've seen a number of managers and salesmen leave one firm and >> pop up in another firm that did something totally different. >> No big deal, it seemed. > >To some degree yes. If I rephrase it and say that a programmer >programs or an engineer engineers and I have seen programmers >"leave one firm and pop up in another firm that did something >totally different" would you say that can't happen or is stupid? >Or are you saying that someone who can program say graphic systems >can't be good programming network systems? I don't think that is >true, and I bet you don't either. > >Sure there will be a learning curve for the new subject mater, >but many of the basic skills are the same. This is also true >with management and sales. I probably didn't state my point clearly enough. I intended the paragraph you quoted above as an observation of things as they all too often are, not as they should be. A salesman should know something about the products he's selling. A manager in a technical environment needn't know every intimate detail, but he should be able to listen to the techs and balance their concerns with the overall goals of the company. The learning curve that you mentioned does indeed exist. I suspect, though, that some people don't care. They're the salesmen who think the job consists of nothing more than making up any sort of sweet talk that will make the customer buy whatever product they happen to be selling at the time, or the managers who think they're doing their job if they just go through the appropriate motions and shuffle the right pieces of paper. Perhaps I've read too much Dilbert. Naah... he exists for a reason. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 13 Feb 2002 22:20:13 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <4cme4a.2p3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1013638812 2084 134.117.136.30 (13 Feb 2002 22:20:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Feb 2002 22:20:13 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101850 Chris Hedley (cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk) writes: > > It's really the final point which bothered me: why were a bunch of grown > men who oftentimes thought themselves very important fixated with dressing > in the style of a forcably-conformed and downtrodden uniformed schoolkid? > If I want a uniform, I'll join the Army (in fact I did in my misguided > youth) otherwise I'll dress how I want; what I want isn't unreasonably > way-out, so I don't see the problem with that, although others seem to. Friggin' rebel trouble maker: you're going to get stuffed into a private school, (no girls!) and you _will_ volunteer for cadet corps and parade around in a discarded military uniform. After all, why should I have had all the fun? PS. The official school colours were orange and black. You should have seen the blazers! ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:26:45 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <57pe4a.qf4.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <4cme4a.2p3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013639403 nnrp-12:26250 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101776 According to Heinz W. Wiggeshoff : > Friggin' rebel trouble maker: you're going to get stuffed into a > private school, (no girls!) and you _will_ volunteer for cadet corps > and parade around in a discarded military uniform. Fortunately my school had girlies, but it also had that bloody uniform; and it wasn't a private school, or a public one, it was a state school. :) I did join the cadets and parade around looking like a bloody idiot, but as far as I could tell the uniform was (at least relatively) new. > PS. The official school colours were orange and black. You should > have seen the blazers! Niiiiice... Actually, at one school the rugby kit was also orange and black (or at least very dark blue), we looked like a swarm of bees. Chris. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:20:48 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.199.154 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013642448 16205 213.122.199.154 (13 Feb 2002 23:20:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 23:20:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101860 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote in message news:g4ee4a.jkm.ln@escape.shannon.net... [SNIP] > Then again, I think some of them were afraid of me. Maybe it was > all the black. Lemme guess, you had a De Niro "Louis Cipher" style hair-do and were peeling eggs with elegantly trimmed nails ? :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 52 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:12:42 CST X-Trace: sv3-WQHcW6qBqhDUxUf6baovv2p8iNvTQTzPECtioMeDYzFZHqkGxRk6v/slZQdMf6bBvFYiRm1XJbzi0Wn!FvmPKyym0OZe5h86pewTc0Bu4htsLfofyoQLrdFfAW6z8jRZthDF6NUIKQmmWpgpAKWw4HQSqBnJ!iEi/qb7VwAW3LVLgxH9Lzw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:12:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101924 "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message news:vrya8.2239$Nv5.211852@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > wrote in message news:a4dqt9$adl$10@bob.news.rcn.net... > > In article , > > eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: ... > > >I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management > > >and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering > > >in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. > > > > Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the > > programming level had a choice of two career paths: management > > or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not > > to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less > > openings for the technical side than the management side. > > That seems to be a flaw in the way DEC did things. At the very top, sure, > but there should be a lot of high level technical slots for people who want > to remain technical. See, for example, the IBM fellows for an example of > how this could work. It wasn't a flaw, it was simple supply and demand. DEC was awash in very competent technical people and desperate for competent managers, so anyone with the *slightest* inclination to move over into management was gobbled up if s/he showed the *slightest* promise of being anything other than a total dud. Unfortunately (as BAH already said) those who did move over indeed often seemed to lose sight of the forest for the trees (i.e., became enmeshed in, and even enamored of, the minutiae of management rather than the goal of producing products that met customer needs). And they proliferated out of all proportion to the benefits they bestowed upon the company, such being the way of bureaucracy. The result was that while dual career paths really did exist, the management path was *much* easier to rise quickly on for a given level of competence (since the competition on the technical path was of far higher relative quality, and there really are only so many technical chiefs one can have for a given number of indians - especially very-well-qualified indians who don't need too much direction). - bill ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 24 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:16:51 CST X-Trace: sv3-GnvUAMgX5dg4XxvDtrSsvrorbgBOO3F8yj2CycH4DXgievN9Xb0M1LURIoHbHIuhl3ZCNYsGumFRqsY!jtQRW6sJi41RrHnIGh5COJr7FaxMva7uZKNKZaYj1qpRPp5fQESmINV5xucoYbX1+h13VIN8knZf!GxCIWj/Go918orufcsh9hA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:16:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101921 "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message news:a4dru5$9fn$1@helle.btinternet.com... > wrote in message news:a4dr5j$adl$11@bob.news.rcn.net... > [SNIP] > > You just worked for Digital, not DEC. There was a big difference. > > Didn't that "We're Digital, not DEC" thing come about in the > year running up to the Compaq deal ? > > Or was this a much earlier rebranding effort ? I remember > seeing "digital" on just about all the manuals and hardware > from the early 80's. Yup - KO & Co. decided back in the early '80s that 'Digital' (or perhaps 'digital') was a more impressive name than the informal 'DEC'. For several years a large portion of the world thought we were a wrist-watch company (since 'digital' watches were just coming into vogue). - bill ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:31:35 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1013646695snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1013653064 mail2news:29635 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101916 In article jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > Silly man. Pantyhose was liberating. It certainly was not; or at least not from a male viewpoint -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:32:47 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1013646767snz@dsl.co.uk> References: X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1013653070 mail2news:29639 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101915 In article jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > It was a figment of Palmer's imagination that, if everybody > avoided saying the word "DEC", all company folklore would go > away. It caused immediate moral problems. MORAL[1] problems??? What were you guys getting up to in Maynard? [1] Without an E? -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:54:59 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101717 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: | Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote in message | news:g4ee4a.jkm.ln@escape.shannon.net... | [SNIP] |> Then again, I think some of them were afraid of me. Maybe it was |> all the black. | | Lemme guess, you had a De Niro "Louis Cipher" style | hair-do and were peeling eggs with elegantly trimmed | nails ? :) Um, no. But there was a time when they didn't listen. The lesson was incredibly painful, involving millions of dollars, my excellent skills in knife twisting, and someone was fired. The next time I said I was worried about something, everyone else worried too. Sadly, the suit-factor greatly increased over time and, predictably, the project was ruined. ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:28:14 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: <4cme4a.2p3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 45 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101731 In article <4cme4a.2p3.ln@teabag.cbhnet>, Chris Hedley wrote: | According to Charles Shannon Hendrix : |> They were just jealous. You were more comfortable and had guts, and |> that's what really bothered them. People have a scary penchant for |> conformity without reason that really bothers me. | | I think there was a lot of that. Another thing was that people tended | to dress that way to try to convince others that they were more important | than they really are; at risk of sounding smug, I carried significantly | more clout in some of the organisations I worked for than some of the | expensively besuited types I'd see on the train. I remember this one snobby business geek that lectured me on the bus about how we dressed. He went on about how if I'd learn to dress like him I'd be respected and paid like him. I leaned over and whispered my salary to him, which was about $30K/year more than his. As for respect, I was still on contract a year after he was canned from his "permanent and respectable" position. | It's really the final point which bothered me: why were a bunch of grown | men who oftentimes thought themselves very important fixated with dressing | in the style of a forcably-conformed and downtrodden uniformed schoolkid? Oh yeah! That's pretty good. Makes sense, given how many people in the office are still trying to make good grades like they did in school, and still for all the same wrong reasons. Impressions rule the day. | If I want a uniform, I'll join the Army (in fact I did in my misguided | youth) otherwise I'll dress how I want; what I want isn't unreasonably | way-out, so I don't see the problem with that, although others seem to. Same here. Why is it that if I don't like a tie or a suit, there is something wrong with me? I agree that you should be neat, but outside of obviously bad taste, I can't fathom "regulation clothing" at work, not directly related to your actual work. I guess it's linked to the human need "to belong" and all that. ###### From: Elliott Roper Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:15:46 +0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <140220021315461050%elliott@yrl.co.uk> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Thoth/1.4.5 (Carbon/OS X) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!elliott Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101836 In article , Bill Todd wrote: > "Rupert Pigott" wrote in message > news:a4dru5$9fn$1@helle.btinternet.com... > > wrote in message > news:a4dr5j$adl$11@bob.news.rcn.net... > > [SNIP] > > > You just worked for Digital, not DEC. There was a big difference. > > > > Didn't that "We're Digital, not DEC" thing come about in the > > year running up to the Compaq deal ? > > > > Or was this a much earlier rebranding effort ? I remember > > seeing "digital" on just about all the manuals and hardware > > from the early 80's. > > Yup - KO & Co. decided back in the early '80s that 'Digital' (or perhaps > 'digital') was a more impressive name than the informal 'DEC'. For several > years a large portion of the world thought we were a wrist-watch company > (since 'digital' watches were just coming into vogue). > Outside the US it was 'd|i|g|i|t|a|l' far earlier than that. There was always pressure not to say 'DEC'. The 10-folk made a fetish of ignoring it of course. I remember a sweet old thing coming off the street at 123 Willoughby Road (Sydney) about 1974, and plonking one of those flip down panel electric clocks on the receptionist's desk. We fixed it for her. It was easier than explaining. And yep, nobody wanted to be a manager in those days. It was a great place to work. And a lot got done pretty efficiently too. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:00:51 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.198.87 X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1013698851 24542 213.122.198.87 (14 Feb 2002 15:00:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:00:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101859 wrote in message news:a4gd0d$hir$10@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article , [SNIP] > memoes from now on had to have that weird d|i|g|i|t|a|l > logo surrounded by *s. Somebody even distributed ASCII Groups trimmed, I really don't think comp.arch want to hear about this. I liked that logo. Brings back many happy memories about making wisecracks about it... "They're just trying to remind us that they don't sell babbage machines". Cheers, Rupert ###### From: eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 14 Feb 2002 16:21:11 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hortensia.etek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 1013703671 14259 129.16.32.92 (14 Feb 2002 16:21:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2002 16:21:11 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!pop-news-1.colt-telecom.nl!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!surfnet.nl!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101852 wrote: > eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: >> >>Then they need to explain that. Management isn't only about having >>"technical" abilities in marketing etc, it's also about the elusive >>concept of leadership. > >Now just wait one minute. The leadership crap is shit. Bad leadership is ship, good leadership isn't. >All >I wanted in a boss was somebody who would tell me if I was >going in the wrong direction; and in all other cases make >sure s/he stayed out of my way. A boss with good leadership abilities would recognise that this was what you wanted, recognized that you could handle being left alone, and left you alone, keeping an eye on your job from a distance, occasionally asking how it's going, occasionally expressing appreciation for the job you've done plus giving directives when needed. That is leadership; most important thing about it is understanding individuals (leading huge masses are more a question of rethoric capabilities). >The bosses I had the most >trouble with were the ones who thought they had to be my >Daddy when I really needed information about company policy >and business trends. One of the classic examples of bad/no leadership. >Leave that leadership crap to politicians and the PC types. You've misunderstood what I mean by leadership. /Andreas ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 72 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:10:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.161.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013706626 12.72.161.209 (Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:10:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:10:26 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101810 "Bill Todd" wrote in message news:_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message > news:vrya8.2239$Nv5.211852@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > > wrote in message > news:a4dqt9$adl$10@bob.news.rcn.net... > > > In article , > > > eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: > > ... > > > > >I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for > management > > > >and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in > engineering > > > >in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their > career. > > > > > > Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the > > > programming level had a choice of two career paths: management > > > or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not > > > to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less > > > openings for the technical side than the management side. > > > > That seems to be a flaw in the way DEC did things. At the very top, sure, > > but there should be a lot of high level technical slots for people who > want > > to remain technical. See, for example, the IBM fellows for an example of > > how this could work. > > It wasn't a flaw, it was simple supply and demand. DEC was awash in very > competent technical people and desperate for competent managers, so anyone > with the *slightest* inclination to move over into management was gobbled up > if s/he showed the *slightest* promise of being anything other than a total > dud. I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with competent people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be able to do so, as did many other companies. Did people just not want to live in the Boston area, or was DEC's compensation plan not adequate? I certainly don't know the answer, but it might be usefull to figure that out. > Unfortunately (as BAH already said) those who did move over indeed often > seemed to lose sight of the forest for the trees (i.e., became enmeshed in, > and even enamored of, the minutiae of management rather than the goal of > producing products that met customer needs). And they proliferated out of > all proportion to the benefits they bestowed upon the company, such being > the way of bureaucracy. OK, so this seems to be a failure of DEC upper management. Why didn't they realize that the people they were promoting weren't working out well. And why did they alow more managers than the company needed? And when they saw that their then current methods weren't working, why didn't they change? These are hard problems to deal with and are one of the reasons why good managers are perhaps even rarer than good technical people, and thus "worth their salt". -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <1986.809T2025T10135614@sky.bus.com> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <7cSa8.6209$Nf3.372814@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:10:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.161.209 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013706627 12.72.161.209 (Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:10:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:10:27 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101814 "Charlie Gibbs" wrote in message news:1986.809T2025T10135614@sky.bus.com... snip > This, too, I believe to be standard. A manager manages, a salesman > sells, etc. What they're managing or selling is largely irrelevant. > I've seen a number of managers and salesmen leave one firm and > pop up in another firm that did something totally different. > No big deal, it seemed. To some degree yes. If I rephrase it and say that a programmer programs or an engineer engineers and I have seen programmers "leave one firm and pop up in another firm that did something totally different" would you say that can't happen or is stupid? Or are you saying that someone who can program say graphic systems can't be good programming network systems? I don't think that is true, and I bet you don't either. Sure there will be a learning curve for the new subject mater, but many of the basic skills are the same. This is also true with management and sales. -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 50 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:18:56 CST X-Trace: sv3-x04MZLVWYnqTJ/dxJmmwCrxgbOXJmILmElvGfPvPxwRk4rr4X9y3gnmAUSonzZH5ze7wvd2pe9zHeHL!Y4U1Ymp+dyiwrAVLLsAkX3YPy5xaITPakO+syerH+BDTI2BJD40G8NPEq0JHXf9Sj2YKbEQeCarm!qRuRj4bTULVG35hlnCdAuQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:18:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101723 "Andreas Långström" wrote in message news:a4go5n$dtj$1@nyheter.chalmers.se... > wrote: > > eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: > >> > >>Then they need to explain that. Management isn't only about having > >>"technical" abilities in marketing etc, it's also about the elusive > >>concept of leadership. > > > >Now just wait one minute. The leadership crap is shit. > > Bad leadership is ship, good leadership isn't. > > >All > >I wanted in a boss was somebody who would tell me if I was > >going in the wrong direction; and in all other cases make > >sure s/he stayed out of my way. > > A boss with good leadership abilities would recognise that this was what > you wanted, recognized that you could handle being left alone, and left > you alone, keeping an eye on your job from a distance, occasionally asking > how it's going, occasionally expressing appreciation for the job you've done > plus giving directives when needed. > > That is leadership; most important thing about it is understanding > individuals (leading huge masses are more a question of rethoric > capabilities). > > >The bosses I had the most > >trouble with were the ones who thought they had to be my > >Daddy when I really needed information about company policy > >and business trends. > > One of the classic examples of bad/no leadership. > > >Leave that leadership crap to politicians and the PC types. > > You've misunderstood what I mean by leadership. It sounds as if what you mean by 'leadership' is what I would call 'good management'. The former term has connotations of inequality that the latter lacks: BAH had it absolutely right when she noted that good management is at least as much a service to those managed as it is a control function. - bill ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 14 Feb 2002 10:50:50 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 14 Feb 2002 10:52:18 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101887 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > memoes from now on had to have that weird d|i|g|i|t|a|l ... > Maybe that's why we had those weird lines in between the letters. Surely the lines were just intended to make it look (sort of) like the graphic logo (reverse letters in boxes)? ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 62 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:08:13 CST X-Trace: sv3-Pa0LHCxMlZuuM4bXypcwk8Ud85z5EgCMa2a7q9uUNpPPzxmeR+t2Bld65iL90kYbS+3CaYvIFsjUbpz!Lq+sqMizinb+McB5ncqPFBbVp7f3bcZb4qDnWuHYAYhMi2YFPGIwaLFl5jTXpPX6tUc9NpyfgSox!8pC46XcBYj97f7r67/DQ/g== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:08:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!news.uunet.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101721 "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message news:6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... ... > I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up > some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with competent > people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be able to do > so, as did many other companies. DEC wasn't IBM (or many other companies), and didn't wish to be. Cookie-cutter managers, even competent ones, didn't help that much: a special breed was needed that the business schools didn't seem to be turning out (and may still not be). Did people just not want to live in the > Boston area, or was DEC's compensation plan not adequate? I certainly don't > know the answer, but it might be usefull to figure that out. > > > > Unfortunately (as BAH already said) those who did move over indeed often > > seemed to lose sight of the forest for the trees (i.e., became enmeshed > in, > > and even enamored of, the minutiae of management rather than the goal of > > producing products that met customer needs). And they proliferated out of > > all proportion to the benefits they bestowed upon the company, such being > > the way of bureaucracy. > > OK, so this seems to be a failure of DEC upper management. Why didn't they > realize that the people they were promoting weren't working out well. And > why did they alow more managers than the company needed? And when they saw > that their then current methods weren't working, why didn't they change? > These are hard problems to deal with and are one of the reasons why good > managers are perhaps even rarer than good technical people, and thus "worth > their salt". I guess any corporate failure can be considered to be a failure of upper management, but that doesn't necessarily help explain what should have been done differently. DEC operated (to the degree that *any* model reflected it well) as a 'matrix' rather than a hierarchical organization, but got so large by around 1980 that its leadership apparently felt that fiddling with the structure could improve things. They tried a bunch of approaches, some conventional and some less so (and as this was not an area I was intimately involved with I can't offer more detail than that) but all with the goal of not transforming DEC into a completely different company (i.e., management was still considered to serve the company's needs rather than the other way 'round). In retrospect, one wonders whether continuing the old intelligent, tech-oriented anarchy might not have worked better. - bill ###### From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Message-ID: <3c6c1c22.1827209858@proxy.news.easynews.com> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 22 X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com Organization: EasyNews, UseNet made Easy! - Test our service with our FREE trial at https://www.easynews.com/trial/trial.phtml X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:24:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!151.164.30.35!cyclone.swbell.net!easynews!news.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101893 On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:41:31 GMT, "Stephen Fuld" wrote: >> Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the >> programming level had a choice of two career paths: management >> or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not >> to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less >> openings for the technical side than the management side. > >That seems to be a flaw in the way DEC did things. At the very top, sure, >but there should be a lot of high level technical slots for people who want >to remain technical. See, for example, the IBM fellows for an example of >how this could work. DEC did have such a thing. They were called corporate and senior corporate consulting engineers and were on the same rank and compensation level as vice presidents. But there were more VPs kicking around in the company than there were vice presidents, just as IBM has more VPs than it does IBM Fellows. --Paul Winalski Remove 'Z' to reply by email. ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 113 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <1BWa8.4986$Nv5.394832@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:10:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.160.137 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013724605 12.72.160.137 (Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:10:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:10:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101813 "Bill Todd" wrote in message news:xWTa8.32508$d34.2037982@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message > news:6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > ... > > > I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up > > some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with competent > > people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be able to do > > so, as did many other companies. > > DEC wasn't IBM (or many other companies), and didn't wish to be. > Cookie-cutter managers, even competent ones, didn't help that much: a > special breed was needed that the business schools didn't seem to be turning > out (and may still not be). So you are saying that in order for DEC to be successful and grow it needed a breed of managers that was so different from what was available that it could not find enough of them. No wonder it failed. As for not being like IBM, it certainly tried to go after IBM's core markets (fairly large to very large corporate systems - beyond the engineering department where it had its roots). IBM's model had proven wildly successfull in serving that market segment. Perhaps the failure was in DEC thinking that it could be successful in that market with its existing model of essentially technical sales. > Did people just not want to live in the > > Boston area, or was DEC's compensation plan not adequate? I certainly > don't > > know the answer, but it might be usefull to figure that out. > > > > > > > Unfortunately (as BAH already said) those who did move over indeed often > > > seemed to lose sight of the forest for the trees (i.e., became enmeshed > > in, > > > and even enamored of, the minutiae of management rather than the goal of > > > producing products that met customer needs). And they proliferated out > of > > > all proportion to the benefits they bestowed upon the company, such > being > > > the way of bureaucracy. > > > > OK, so this seems to be a failure of DEC upper management. Why didn't > they > > realize that the people they were promoting weren't working out well. And > > why did they alow more managers than the company needed? And when they > saw > > that their then current methods weren't working, why didn't they change? > > These are hard problems to deal with and are one of the reasons why good > > managers are perhaps even rarer than good technical people, and thus > "worth > > their salt". > > I guess any corporate failure can be considered to be a failure of upper > management, but that doesn't necessarily help explain what should have been > done differently. DEC operated (to the degree that *any* model reflected it > well) as a 'matrix' rather than a hierarchical organization, but got so > large by around 1980 that its leadership apparently felt that fiddling with > the structure could improve things. Many large, successful companies operated with a matrix structure, so that, in and of itself wasn't a problem, but the idea that frequently changing the structure would help might have been. Note that many companies frequently reorganize (including IBM - at one time the employees joked that the initials stood for I've Been Moved), but that wasn't the goal, or even a strategy. It was a tactic that fit a successfull strategy. I believe that DEC's failure was a failure to recognize that the corporate culture that had made it so successfull to date wasn't going to be successfull in the new markets it was trying to grow into. Changing corporate culture is hard. It can be done, but hasn't often been. > They tried a bunch of approaches, some > conventional and some less so (and as this was not an area I was intimately > involved with I can't offer more detail than that) but all with the goal of > not transforming DEC into a completely different company (i.e., management > was still considered to serve the company's needs rather than the other way > 'round). I don't understand what that last phrase means. (starting with the word "goal".) > In retrospect, one wonders whether continuing the old intelligent, > tech-oriented anarchy might not have worked better. I doubt it, at least if the plan was to grow the company. Look at the history of every company that primarily served the technical markets. There aren't many survivors. That segment just isn't big enough to support a company the size that DEC had grown to. -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1BWa8.4986$Nv5.394832@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 116 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:26:49 CST X-Trace: sv3-kw2HCXtWiNY5/1TPAXS4REqcGdU5qqe63zQrRHieztfoL4smJWTFRy31UgIxR64jH5XP3eW47Dnjonp!NFosS7crAQ/VVDkFORHtyj4LqDs4v9W87NvWfLcks3RWozXfdNzElYcCdyIxO7ejCR/cS2itM5N2!5XoiGxQwFC76Kl4GUfn1Nw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:26:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101720 "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message news:1BWa8.4986$Nv5.394832@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > "Bill Todd" wrote in message > news:xWTa8.32508$d34.2037982@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > > "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message > > news:6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > > ... > > > > > I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up > > > some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with > competent > > > people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be able to > do > > > so, as did many other companies. > > > > DEC wasn't IBM (or many other companies), and didn't wish to be. > > Cookie-cutter managers, even competent ones, didn't help that much: a > > special breed was needed that the business schools didn't seem to be > turning > > out (and may still not be). > > So you are saying that in order for DEC to be successful and grow it needed > a breed of managers that was so different from what was available that it > could not find enough of them. No wonder it failed. No, I'm saying that it needed to continue the same kind of light-weight and somewhat informal management that had brought it its size and success in the first place. And that teaching outsiders how to work this way wasn't easy. But it probably could have been done if the company had realized how important it was rather than just assumed that fooling around with the mechanism wouldn't seriously injure it. > > As for not being like IBM, it certainly tried to go after IBM's core markets > (fairly large to very large corporate systems - beyond the engineering > department where it had its roots). Rather successfully, too. But it didn't want to become similar to IBM as a corporation (at least in its internal functioning), it just wanted a significant piece of those markets. IBM's model had proven wildly > successfull in serving that market segment. Perhaps the failure was in DEC > thinking that it could be successful in that market with its existing model > of essentially technical sales. No, because it already *was* becoming quite successful in that market with its existing product set: existing IBM customers often saw DEC as a breath of fresh air. ... > I believe that > DEC's failure was a failure to recognize that the corporate culture that had > made it so successfull to date wasn't going to be successfull in the new > markets it was trying to grow into. Nope: as I said above, it already *was* successful in those new market areas. The failure was in believing that the culture could be changed without screwing things up, instead of valuing the culture and doing whatever it took to continue it. Changing corporate culture is hard. It > can be done, but hasn't often been. And DEC certainly didn't succeed at it. > > > They tried a bunch of approaches, some > > conventional and some less so (and as this was not an area I was > intimately > > involved with I can't offer more detail than that) but all with the goal > of > > not transforming DEC into a completely different company (i.e., management > > was still considered to serve the company's needs rather than the other > way > > 'round). > > I don't understand what that last phrase means. (starting with the word > "goal".) The goal was simply to find a more 'manageable' management process than "Do the right thing", but not to do so at the expense of the culture - i.e., the culture wasn't explicitly subordinated to the quest for 'better' management. Unfortunately, subordination was the result anyway. > > > In retrospect, one wonders whether continuing the old intelligent, > > tech-oriented anarchy might not have worked better. > > I doubt it, at least if the plan was to grow the company. Look at the > history of every company that primarily served the technical markets. There > aren't many survivors. That segment just isn't big enough to support a > company the size that DEC had grown to. And it wasn't supporting that size company: DEC's 'business' business was far larger than its technical business long before the mid-'80s, and was thriving under the company's internal technical orientation. - bill ###### From: Gordon Gibson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:27:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net (please include full headers) X-Trace: c215f0383a8020106458e4026b02330a48176a80801a66190579a8683c6c7220 NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:27:44 GMT Lines: 57 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!lon1-news.nildram.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!eurus Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101896 On 10 Feb 2002 20:14:17 +0100, jthorn@galileo.thp.univie.ac.at (Jonathan Thornburg) wrote: >In article , >cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >>Even after all these years, I still think it's absurd (if not obscene) >>that in the "professions" of management and marketing, people are >>allowed (even encouraged) to get away with having absolutely zero >>understanding or interest in the basic technical workings of their >>business. > >In article , responded >>My current hypothesis is that an MBA undergoes some flavor of >>lobotomy. > >Classic geek definition: >tie: [noun] A device for restricting blood flow to the brain. MMMMMMn Suits and management. Interesting stuff this. I'm sure you'll forgive me for pointing out that a few preconceptions have been showing through here - not to say a certain amount of bigotry. There are urban legends about the accountants and salesmen shoving the company down the tubes, but the reality is rather different. I saw one good company busted, and it was done by people who were emphatically engineers - not marketdroids, not bean-counters. As someone who has spent a mere 27 years in the industry, in one slot or another, while I sympathise with the view that the suits occasionally lost touch with the product, that to my mind was not the major reason why the market walked away from mainframes and minicomps. From my line of sight, these thing were just too _dedicated_, and therefore ridiculously costly. Secondly, programmers and ops got wildly above themselves and caused all sorts of unnecessary problems. From a business point of view (and bear in mind that for most businesses IT was only a service) it all became unwieldy and troublesome. Flexibility and autonomy came with the IBM PC, and it was a blessing. Piss-poor as they were (and they undoubtedly were), given a £100 program, we could do all that black magic that had recently cost us thousands of pounds. The bonus was that we no longer had to negotiate with some jumped-up jackass who continually held the company to ransom. I'm completely in agreement with the idea of a Museum of Computing. Many things were undoubtedly done better in the past. They just cost more than business could bear at the time. -- Regards, Gordon ###### From: eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 15 Feb 2002 15:04:24 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hortensia.etek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 1013785464 18881 129.16.32.92 (15 Feb 2002 15:04:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Feb 2002 15:04:24 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news000.worldonline.se!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101848 wrote: > eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: >> wrote: >>> eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) wrote: >>>> >>>>Then they need to explain that. Management isn't only about having >>>>"technical" abilities in marketing etc, it's also about the elusive >>>>concept of leadership. >>> >>>Now just wait one minute. The leadership crap is shit. >> >>Bad leadership is shit, good leadership isn't. I'd like to add that in management (as leftpondians apparently like to call it becasuse of some negative flavour to the word leadership) I also include all the boring administrative tasks as keeping track of who's on vacation when (it's not always good if everyone's gone at the same time), keeping track of budgets, pestering the next level of management about what the team needs etc. The part of the job as a manager that involves getting people to do a good job, feel good, cooperate and strive in the same direction as the management wants, is what I call leadership. >>A boss with good leadership abilities would recognise that this was what >>you wanted, recognized that you could handle being left alone, and left >>you alone, keeping an eye on your job from a distance, occasionally asking >>how it's going, occasionally expressing appreciation for the job you've >done > >I didn't want expressed appreciation. That wasn't what the >biz was about. If you don't want to know that someone likes what you've done, when you've just done something out of the ordinary, then that's your right. Observe that what I mean by "occasionally expressing appreciation" is absolutely not some meaningless thing dished out regularely because of some bullshit thaught at these idiotic "leadership courses" that most new managers get sent to. I really mean a sincere comliment for a specific thing. >>plus giving directives when needed. >> >>>Leave that leadership crap to politicians and the PC types. >> >>You've misunderstood what I mean by leadership. > >Nope. You're still add a PC flavor to it. :-). A manager with good leadership won't have anything to do with any PC crap, if you do that you won't have any respect from the people on your team. You have to tell things as they are; you have to be trusted to be able to be a team leader (which is what the manager really is). Just because a lot of bullshitters call it leadership when they smile and are polite and say PC things to hide their incompetence doesn't mean that they are right. I'm member of an association called ETA. Should I shy away from it and use another name just because of som terrorist organisation took the same acronym some 40 years after our association was formed? (we do underline the fact that we are a resistance movement) /Andreas ###### Message-ID: <3C6D2836.67258B15@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1BWa8.4986$Nv5.394832@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 50 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:37:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.92 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1013787449 168.191.124.92 (Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:37:29 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:37:29 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:37:29 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101767 Stephen Fuld wrote: > As for not being like IBM, it certainly tried to go after IBM's core markets > (fairly large to very large corporate systems - beyond the engineering > department where it had its roots). IBM's model had proven wildly > successfull in serving that market segment. Perhaps the failure was in DEC > thinking that it could be successful in that market with its existing model > of essentially technical sales. As a customer of Data General in the 70's, I saw them go after the "corporate market" in the late 70's. Nothing wrong with that except they totally abandoned their technical customer base (me!). Suddenly they would no longer take my calls or questions, there was no follow up and no plan for the future. At this point we started a development project using DEC computers (PDP-11's, eventually a successful J-11 based system). DG apparently fell on their faces and suddenly several years later came running back to us asking for our business. We responded (DEC was no picnic either, their DA11 would not work in an 11/44 and they insisted it was our problem. MDB told us what was wrong and sold us their equivalent which worked fine. This cost us half a year.) and sold one more system using DG Eclipses which ended up running an alpha release of their "new" operating system which they then abandoned again. That was our last business relationship with DG. I assume they were unsuccessful at retrieving most of their technical market as their efforts seemed to be an attempt to stem the losses from their "corporate business" efforts and thus we got abandoned again. As to the DEC DA11 problem, I used to refer to this as the "battle of the females". The local DEC sales engineer was a very attractive woman. She came to hate me and tried to work on my boss who had no technical skills (but did have eyes, I swear that as the problem dragged on, the skirts got shorter ;-) The designer of MDB's equivalent (and IIRC the "chief engineer" for MDB) was also female. I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with her at the spring DECUS in 1983 in St. Louis. She very clearly was aware of what the problem was with the DEC unit, some timing strangeness with the 11/44's UNIBUS but that's all I recall. Why DEC wasn't aware of it or why they wouldn't admit it is still a mystery to me to this day but went a long way towards my growing distrust of DEC and why I started looking at SUN as a replacement in the mid 80's. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 15 Feb 02 11:26:21 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 64 Message-ID: <3046.811T1076T6864809@sky.bus.com> References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-794.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101932 In article scaraben@clara.co.uk (Gordon Gibson) writes: >From my line of sight, these thing were just too _dedicated_, and >therefore ridiculously costly. Secondly, programmers and ops got >wildly above themselves and caused all sorts of unnecessary problems. >From a business point of view (and bear in mind that for most >businesses IT was only a service) it all became unwieldy and >troublesome. It's true that this could happen sometimes; the image comes to mind of glass-walled computer rooms containing machines tended by a priesthood. (I might be a bit biased, having been one of the priests. :-) But at one place we worked, we actually called ourselves "Computer Services" - at least until a new group of suits took over in an act of what I call "management by invasion", and the whole place went Dilbert. >Flexibility and autonomy came with the IBM PC, and it was a blessing. >Piss-poor as they were (and they undoubtedly were), given a £100 >program, we could do all that black magic that had recently cost us >thousands of pounds. The bonus was that we no longer had to negotiate >with some jumped-up jackass who continually held the company to >ransom. We were on the other side of this. We had a book containing a list of over 50 projects that user departments wanted us to do for them. We've have been glad to oblige - but we couldn't get budget money allocated for the hardware we'd have needed. Then along came the little machines. One department built a network of Macs, another got an NBI box. There was nothing we could do but wish them well and continue to provide such services as we were equipped to do. Then the new management team took over. All of a sudden money was flowing like water. Naturally we were kept completely out of the loop, although I did get a condescending pat on the head for having ported our software to the 68020 Unix box which we had managed to acquire for experimental purposes. (The new team, of course, brought in the big multi-processor Unix box.) The user departments weren't too happy either, because they were forced to throw out their home-grown (and smoothly working) systems because their personal computers weren't using the Correct Operating System (i.e. Windows). But the new management team was very even-handed; they managed to piss off just about everyone, whether they worked with computers or not. Thus began the Great Exodus. Sorry if I'm ranting again. Eight years and I still come to a slow boil thinking about it. >I'm completely in agreement with the idea of a Museum of Computing. >Many things were undoubtedly done better in the past. They just cost >more than business could bear at the time. Oh, I have faith that the software bureaucracies can keep those costs up there. :-) -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 02 10:30:18 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZg6vLwJ4m3+R6gyI1rnvZAaUaPnaD74Dd80DtcohWXB2oG5iW/w8mE X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2002 12:44:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-42 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101945 In article , gds@best.com wrote: >eal@etek.chalmers.se wrote: > >>I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management >>and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering >>in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. > >When I was an undergrad, I had several friends and acquaintances who got >bachelor's degrees in engineering but intended to pursue MBA's afterwards. >Several of them did well in engineering courses; I suppose it is debatable >whether that's an indication of whether they were "interested" in >engineering. But they had (imho) reasonable motivations for pursuing MBAs. >Some felt they'd make more money. Others wanted to form their own >companies someday, or be managers at Fortune 500 companies. They felt >having an MBA would facilitate that. The rumor was that an MBA education would help deal with all the crap required to establish and run a company. I mean you have to have some way to keep a half-step ahead of the pols changing the rules out from underneath you..especially if you wanted to pay employees. > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the >>programming level had a choice of two career paths: management >>or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not >>to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less >>openings for the technical side than the management side. > >It was my experience in the mid-late 1990s at Digital that a lot of >(imho) good engineers left the company to work somewhere else, They were forced to. > .. in some >cases starting their own companies. It wouldn't surprise me if they >felt that going somewhere else or striking out on their own was more >viable than trying to get one of those coveted top technical positions >that were disappearing quickly. Those top technical positions were getting filled with assholes who hadn't done a lick of work in their DEC-life. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 02 12:03:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1BWa8.4986$Nv5.394832@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C6D2836.67258B15@earthlink.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZmBqi/DIhZdQDImSzSZ6npgUXyRqsY2aF2dx1LaE5hffo4Q0p+N1FZ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2002 14:17:45 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-81 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101941 In article <3C6D2836.67258B15@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: > > >Stephen Fuld wrote: > >> As for not being like IBM, it certainly tried to go after IBM's core markets >> (fairly large to very large corporate systems - beyond the engineering >> department where it had its roots). IBM's model had proven wildly >> successfull in serving that market segment. Perhaps the failure was in DEC >> thinking that it could be successful in that market with its existing model >> of essentially technical sales. > >As a customer of Data General in the 70's, I saw them go after the >"corporate market" in the late 70's. Nothing wrong with that except they >totally abandoned their technical customer base (me!). Suddenly they >would no longer take my calls or questions, there was no follow up and >no plan for the future. At this point we started a development project >using DEC computers (PDP-11's, eventually a successful J-11 based >system). DG apparently fell on their faces and suddenly several years >later came running back to us asking for our business. We responded >(DEC was no picnic either, their DA11 would not work in an 11/44 and >they insisted it was our problem. MDB told us what was wrong and >sold us their equivalent which worked fine. This cost us half a year.) >and sold one more system using DG Eclipses which ended up running >an alpha release of their "new" operating system which they then >abandoned again. That was our last business relationship with DG. >I assume they were unsuccessful at retrieving most of their technical >market as their efforts seemed to be an attempt to stem the losses >from their "corporate business" efforts and thus we got abandoned >again. I never understood this even when I saw it happening in front of my face. > >As to the DEC DA11 problem, I used to refer to this as the >"battle of the females". Those were awful and seemed to get worse as EEO got stronger. Guys' territorial fights were nothing compared to females doing it. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 02 12:06:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3046.811T1076T6864809@sky.bus.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbS7lMQvt1YJgh7kQWlF7hpIo2PJ/SOxj+IyAfuGWbqljr8Oc/cBJ+d X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Feb 2002 14:20:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-255-81 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101940 In article <3046.811T1076T6864809@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >Sorry if I'm ranting again. Eight years and I still come to a >slow boil thinking about it. That's OK. I have a few of them, too. I'm not the slow-boiling type, though. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: gds@best.com Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Lines: 32 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:21:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.220.66.135 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 1013808119 192.220.66.135 (Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:21:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:21:59 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101970 eal@etek.chalmers.se wrote: >I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management >and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering >in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. When I was an undergrad, I had several friends and acquaintances who got bachelor's degrees in engineering but intended to pursue MBA's afterwards. Several of them did well in engineering courses; I suppose it is debatable whether that's an indication of whether they were "interested" in engineering. But they had (imho) reasonable motivations for pursuing MBAs. Some felt they'd make more money. Others wanted to form their own companies someday, or be managers at Fortune 500 companies. They felt having an MBA would facilitate that. jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the >programming level had a choice of two career paths: management >or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not >to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less >openings for the technical side than the management side. It was my experience in the mid-late 1990s at Digital that a lot of (imho) good engineers left the company to work somewhere else, in some cases starting their own companies. It wouldn't surprise me if they felt that going somewhere else or striking out on their own was more viable than trying to get one of those coveted top technical positions that were disappearing quickly. --gregbo ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:54:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-133-23.btinternet.com X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013810043 27558 213.1.133.23 (15 Feb 2002 21:54:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:54:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!teaser.fr!fr.colt.net!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101958 Andreas Långström wrote in message news:a4j81o$ie1$1@nyheter.chalmers.se... [SNIP] > I'm member of an association called ETA. Should I shy away from it and Heh, no relation to ETA the CDC spin-off perchance... Actually, that's another bunch of supercomputers that info is spare for. At one point I had a fixation for acquiring an ETA-10P or Q (the aircooled variants). I recently tripped over a university computing centre site which featured ETA-10s heavily in it's past and I noticed that the average time from installation to decommissioning was under 3 years ! :( Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1013891532 12.237.69.87 (Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:32:12 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:32:12 GMT Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:32:12 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101989 gds@best.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > It was my experience in the mid-late 1990s at Digital that a lot of > (imho) good engineers left the company to work somewhere else, in some > cases starting their own companies. It wouldn't surprise me if they > felt that going somewhere else or striking out on their own was more > viable than trying to get one of those coveted top technical positions > that were disappearing quickly. > One reason that a lot of good engineers left DEC in the late 1990's was that DEC laid off 20,000 or more people in the late 1990's. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C6EDEC4.6EC2E7DB@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> <3046.811T1076T6864809@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1013891737 12.237.69.87 (Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:35:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:35:37 GMT Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:35:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101994 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article > scaraben@clara.co.uk (Gordon Gibson) writes: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > The user departments weren't too happy either, because they were > forced to throw out their home-grown (and smoothly working) systems > because their personal computers weren't using the Correct Operating > System (i.e. Windows). But the new management team was very > even-handed; they managed to piss off just about everyone, whether > they worked with computers or not. Thus began the Great Exodus. > > Sorry if I'm ranting again. Eight years and I still come to a > slow boil thinking about it. > Having to watch with your hands tied...while the suits piss the business right out the window...yeah, I can see how that might raise your stress levels unacceptably... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1013891907 12.237.69.87 (Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:38:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:38:27 GMT Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:38:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101992 "Andreas Långström" wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > A boss with good leadership abilities would recognise that this was what > you wanted, recognized that you could handle being left alone, and left > you alone, keeping an eye on your job from a distance, occasionally asking > how it's going, occasionally expressing appreciation for the job you've done > plus giving directives when needed. > > That is leadership; most important thing about it is understanding > individuals (leading huge masses are more a question of rethoric > capabilities). > Also, the good boss will act as a "shit sheild" to keep the crap from upper management away. That allows the workers to keep their eyes on the technical goals and do the good work. There is a lot of truth in: "Your job is only as good as your immediate supervisor." -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C6EE02C.538C2B52@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1013892096 12.237.69.87 (Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:41:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:41:36 GMT Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:41:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101982 Eric Smith wrote: > > jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > memoes from now on had to have that weird d|i|g|i|t|a|l > ... > > Maybe that's why we had those weird lines in between the letters. > > Surely the lines were just intended to make it look (sort of) like the > graphic logo (reverse letters in boxes)? > Maybe it represented the fact that the workers at DEC were broken into many factions...all warring with each other. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:23:34 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013895002 nnrp-12:29140 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!asynchrone-stat!deine.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101942 According to Charles Richmond : > One reason that a lot of good engineers left DEC in the late > 1990's was that DEC laid off 20,000 or more people in the late > 1990's. DEC laid off anyone who wasn't seen as "management material;" either you were absorbed into "The Matrix" or given the boot! Of course a lot of people just left anyway as the salaries for people who were doing the real work were so bad; the harder you worked, the less you got paid and the less chance you had of getting any sort of bonus, especially if you were "out of the way" because of working on a customer site; ironically, the more profitable the customer, the less chance the employee had of ever getting back to the office for a performance evaluation. The pay disparity certainly caused an awful lot of bad feeling and resentment, especially as it seemed to reward people for not working. Chris. ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:28:06 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3C6EE02C.538C2B52@ev1.net> User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.5-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101963 In alt.folklore.computers Charles Richmond wrote: > Maybe it represented the fact that the workers at DEC were > broken into many factions...all warring with each other. Any company big enough for you to not be able to know everyone personally will end up like this. Anywhere where there are too many closed doors will develop factions. Anywhere where people have different objectives will develop factions. Factions are a fact of life. (Note, the corollary is not true - a company being small doesn't guarantee the non-existence of factions). pete -- pete@fenelon.com "Irk the purists, irk the purists, it's a right good laugh." ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:51:14 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbkzT46SHCZq7UVY6nCnkxrL6MgnGWV978UUFCQEHReNLM43OdhdrZ9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 11:05:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-42 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102016 In article <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >gds@best.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> It was my experience in the mid-late 1990s at Digital that a lot of >> (imho) good engineers left the company to work somewhere else, in some >> cases starting their own companies. It wouldn't surprise me if they >> felt that going somewhere else or striking out on their own was more >> viable than trying to get one of those coveted top technical positions >> that were disappearing quickly. >> >One reason that a lot of good engineers left DEC in the late >1990's was that DEC laid off 20,000 or more people in the late >1990's. > Most of them were the people who knew how to get a product out. The rest of the people who knew how to get a product out were part of the packages sold to other companies because these groups were profitable. This is also called nuking one's seed corn. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:53:17 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYuIYSzccrDHQVs6U9LEI8hN8byWt+dKfF5n5BMeS+0LWtH2LBN1owV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 11:07:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-42 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102023 In article , cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Charles Richmond : >> One reason that a lot of good engineers left DEC in the late >> 1990's was that DEC laid off 20,000 or more people in the late >> 1990's. > >DEC laid off anyone who wasn't seen as "management material;" >either you were absorbed into "The Matrix" or given the boot! >Of course a lot of people just left anyway as the salaries >for people who were doing the real work were so bad; the harder >you worked, the less you got paid and the less chance you had >of getting any sort of bonus, especially if you were "out of >the way" because of working on a customer site; ironically, the >more profitable the customer, the less chance the employee had >of ever getting back to the office for a performance evaluation. >The pay disparity certainly caused an awful lot of bad feeling >and resentment, especially as it seemed to reward people for >not working. I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them was count of code lines written. And this was done to a very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. That is no way to treat your most talented people. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:57:24 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZJdmO3uSjCBED6LqE7415I2gfGEazGuoBjMor91NlzYkK/J8JzFuhE X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 11:11:49 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-42 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102015 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >Charles Richmond wrote in message >news:3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net... >[SNIP] >> Also, the good boss will act as a "shit sheild" to keep the crap >> from upper management away. That allows the workers to keep their >> eyes on the technical goals and do the good work. There is a lot >> of truth in: "Your job is only as good as your immediate supervisor." > >Indeed. The amount by which my productivity went up when I >had a change of manager was amazing... All down to him >dealing with the crud and letting us get on with it... No >excuses for slacking was the downside of course. :P > >I miss that guy, he was damn good, best manager I ever had >without a doubt ! So train the new ones. That was the first thing that TW and JMF did. It usually took about a year to break in a new supervisor. A really good one took less time, but never less than six months. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:59:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3C6EE02C.538C2B52@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbf+za7qwPJ2Rh5AMads9vR6RV2ZEUbHrffrWzmqqBmxHe6btJ6RCxF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 11:14:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-42 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102018 In article <3C6EE02C.538C2B52@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >Eric Smith wrote: >> >> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> > memoes from now on had to have that weird d|i|g|i|t|a|l >> ... >> > Maybe that's why we had those weird lines in between the letters. >> >> Surely the lines were just intended to make it look (sort of) like the >> graphic logo (reverse letters in boxes)? >> >Maybe it represented the fact that the workers at DEC were >broken into many factions...all warring with each other. > In those days, we were all in the Mill. The warring created quality because we fought _before_ we shipped a product. Later on, the warring happened _after_ ship. One of the bad things that happened was isolating the development groups according to product line. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 02 09:03:00 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbHQkQummavEFXSVtAK9lk8O8+wGpDeayMlYr7jrAVb4WRZonl6zLNQ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Feb 2002 11:17:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-42 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102014 In article , shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: >In article , >Gordon Gibson wrote: > >> Suits and management. Interesting stuff this. I'm sure you'll >> forgive me for pointing out that a few preconceptions have been >> showing through here - not to say a certain amount of bigotry. There >> are urban legends about the accountants and salesmen shoving the >> company down the tubes, but the reality is rather different. > >Those are not urban legends for those of who lived through them, more >than once. >I'm willing to bet that we now spend far _more_ money on software than >we did in the mainframe era. I bet it's worse than that. More money is spent on rebooting and/or rebuilding rather than productive work. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:59:16 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.190.25 X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1013903956 29940 213.122.190.25 (16 Feb 2002 23:59:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:59:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102048 Charles Richmond wrote in message news:3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net... [SNIP] > Also, the good boss will act as a "shit sheild" to keep the crap > from upper management away. That allows the workers to keep their > eyes on the technical goals and do the good work. There is a lot > of truth in: "Your job is only as good as your immediate supervisor." Indeed. The amount by which my productivity went up when I had a change of manager was amazing... All down to him dealing with the crud and letting us get on with it... No excuses for slacking was the downside of course. :P I miss that guy, he was damn good, best manager I ever had without a doubt ! Cheers, Rupert ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 00:00:53 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013905804 nnrp-10:10487 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102012 According to Charles Richmond : > Also, the good boss will act as a "shit sheild" to keep the crap > from upper management away. That allows the workers to keep their > eyes on the technical goals and do the good work. There is a lot > of truth in: "Your job is only as good as your immediate supervisor." I've had some very good "shit shields" in my time; really good guys who had a Clue. Unfortunately, most line managers are shit amplifiers; they take all the bollocks from higher-level clueless idiots and add a whole bunch of their own arseholery into the mix. Chris. ###### Message-ID: <3C6F2052.A23A8E9E@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:19:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.170.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013915942 12.90.170.152 (Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:19:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:19:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102001 Chris Hedley wrote: > > According to Charles Richmond : > > Also, the good boss will act as a "shit sheild" to keep the crap > > from upper management away. That allows the workers to keep their > > eyes on the technical goals and do the good work. There is a lot > > of truth in: "Your job is only as good as your immediate supervisor." > > I've had some very good "shit shields" in my time; really good guys > who had a Clue. Unfortunately, most line managers are shit amplifiers; > they take all the bollocks from higher-level clueless idiots and add a > whole bunch of their own arseholery into the mix. The way to get them to do their job is to tell them what a good job they are doing. "Glad you came here, you are doing such a good job of diverting all this petty crap from me." -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:54:26 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 83 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102046 In article , Gordon Gibson wrote: > Suits and management. Interesting stuff this. I'm sure you'll > forgive me for pointing out that a few preconceptions have been > showing through here - not to say a certain amount of bigotry. There > are urban legends about the accountants and salesmen shoving the > company down the tubes, but the reality is rather different. Those are not urban legends for those of who lived through them, more than once. > From my line of sight, these thing were just too _dedicated_, and > therefore ridiculously costly. Secondly, programmers and ops got > wildly above themselves and caused all sorts of unnecessary problems. > From a business point of view (and bear in mind that for most > businesses IT was only a service) it all became unwieldy and > troublesome. They were dedicated mostly because they were older technologically and were designed around a different operating procedure. However, they could be and were made to be more flexible over time. The lack of flexibility was often due to the people running them, not the machines themselves. Programmers and ops may have done things like that (i.e. the priesthood of operators), but that was in itself a management problem. Also, the users then and even moreso now make requests with little or no discipline or requirement to justify them. In the past the cost of the machines often led to overly conservative management of the resources. However, the opposite and IMHO more damaging trend is true: very little thought put into management resources. After all, they are cheap, we'll just buy more. There has also been a considerable move back to the mainframe, and lot of the "PC/workstation" systems are now being built and used a lot like those old mainframes. > Flexibility and autonomy came with the IBM PC, and it was a blessing. > Piss-poor as they were (and they undoubtedly were), given a £100 > program, we could do all that black magic that had recently cost us > thousands of pounds. The bonus was that we no longer had to negotiate > with some jumped-up jackass who continually held the company to > ransom. You just described one type of suit. That person was not an engineer, by violation of the definition of an engineer. A real engineer wants to help people, not hold them ransom. Also, that blessing was a mixed one. While it might have been easier, most of the time it has resulted in inferior solutions. Just look at the software market today. Yes, there are 100K different PC programs now, all far cheaper than the mainframe equivalents. But is it really a blessing? How many of them are actually unique? How many of them are not just junk, horribly programmed and maybe even dangerous to your data? Most software now is written with the goal being to sell the next version, not accomplish the given job in the best way. I'm willing to bet that we now spend far _more_ money on software than we did in the mainframe era. That doesn't mean we need to go back, but we should at least recognize that there are problems, perhaps even greater, that came along with these (largely perceived IMHO) benefits. > I'm completely in agreement with the idea of a Museum of Computing. > Many things were undoubtedly done better in the past. They just cost > more than business could bear at the time. Or maybe it just looked that way. Certainly the gross misuse of small computers today is very costly, no matter how forcefully people try to turn their head away from it. It's all part of a long and painful learning process. I just hope we have not painted ourselves into too much of a corner, and let outselves become dependent on companies and structures far more limiting than the old mainframes were. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:57:52 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 69 Message-ID: <979t6ukhj5ut038j7jfkpi3rf1olq8acpn@4ax.com> References: Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-143-153.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1013929074 13635 207.148.143.153 (17 Feb 2002 06:57:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:57:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102063 On Sat, 16 Feb 02 10:30:18 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > gds@best.com wrote: >>eal@etek.chalmers.se wrote: >> >>>I think that the main problem is that most engineers going for management >>>and getting an MBA are the ones that never were interested in engineering >>>in the first place, and only saw it as a stepping stone for their career. >> >>When I was an undergrad, I had several friends and acquaintances who got >>bachelor's degrees in engineering but intended to pursue MBA's afterwards. >>Several of them did well in engineering courses; I suppose it is debatable >>whether that's an indication of whether they were "interested" in >>engineering. But they had (imho) reasonable motivations for pursuing >MBAs. >>Some felt they'd make more money. Others wanted to form their own >>companies someday, or be managers at Fortune 500 companies. They felt >>having an MBA would facilitate that. > >The rumor was that an MBA education would help deal with all the >crap required to establish and run a company. I mean you have >to have some way to keep a half-step ahead of the pols changing >the rules out from underneath you..especially if you wanted to >pay employees. >> >>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>>Nope. That's not how it happened. In DEC, somebody at the >>>programming level had a choice of two career paths: management >>>or technical. You had to be really, really good AND determined not >>>to be a boss to take the technical path. There were a lot less >>>openings for the technical side than the management side. >> >>It was my experience in the mid-late 1990s at Digital that a lot of >>(imho) good engineers left the company to work somewhere else, > >They were forced to. > >> .. in some >>cases starting their own companies. It wouldn't surprise me if they >>felt that going somewhere else or striking out on their own was more >>viable than trying to get one of those coveted top technical positions >>that were disappearing quickly. > >Those top technical positions were getting filled with assholes >who hadn't done a lick of work in their DEC-life. Most companies seem to reserve these positions for people who have done technical work that has added to the bottom line, moved the company ahead, or saved its bacon in a crunch, at a global level, and done it a few times, such that they can be trusted with all the company's resources to steer their own direction to the company's benefit. Maybe manglement started treating these positions as just another rung on the technical promotion ladder for long time servers, locking out the technical giants who could push the company ahead, forcing them to move elsewhere, and leaving the company with no technical momentum. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:57:55 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <4cme4a.2p3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-143-153.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1013929078 13635 207.148.143.153 (17 Feb 2002 06:57:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:57:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!east1.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102068 On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:38:12 +0000, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote: >According to Charles Shannon Hendrix : >> They were just jealous. You were more comfortable and had guts, and >> that's what really bothered them. People have a scary penchant for >> conformity without reason that really bothers me. > >I think there was a lot of that. Another thing was that people tended >to dress that way to try to convince others that they were more important >than they really are; at risk of sounding smug, I carried significantly >more clout in some of the organisations I worked for than some of the >expensively besuited types I'd see on the train. > >> I'm convinced that people don't really like suits. I mean, they don't >> have a single style preference for anything else like cars, houses, >> furniture, etc, so why this fixation on a single style of male dress? > >It's really the final point which bothered me: why were a bunch of grown >men who oftentimes thought themselves very important fixated with dressing >in the style of a forcably-conformed and downtrodden uniformed schoolkid? The form of dress was that required for clerks working for Victorian business professionals (accountants, lawyers, etc.) who dressed conservatively themselves, and it may have been adopted by the middle classes in an attempt to look more respectable. Those with real money or power tend to obey the conventions when appropriate (board meetings, funerals) but otherwise ignore them. Around here, a lot of the business types live on farms, ranches, and wear jeans and shirts on days when they're not meeting anyone outside the company. Most places nowadays, the Docker/Polo combo is acceptable or mandated (the style, not the brands!) OTOH some companies seem to be run by accountants and lawyers, and have Victorian dress standards, often with annotated illustrations of appropriate dress: wish I'd kept/scanned copies of some of those. >If I want a uniform, I'll join the Army (in fact I did in my misguided >youth) otherwise I'll dress how I want; what I want isn't unreasonably >way-out, so I don't see the problem with that, although others seem to. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:57:59 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 43 Message-ID: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> References: Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-143-153.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1013929081 13635 207.148.143.153 (17 Feb 2002 06:58:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:58:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!xmission!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102003 On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:42:39 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:a4e2fo$d03$4@bob.news.rcn.net... >[SNIP] >> I am simply stunned. I would never "trust" a system, even >> if I had written everything. Haven't you ever heard of >> Murphy's Law and all of its corrollaries? > >"Never trust a computer too heavy to lift" :) > >I believe you said -10's were too heavy to lift... > >I trusted and still do trust T225, T425, T800, T801, >and T805 microprocessors. [snip] >There were caveats when dealing with large DRAM memories >because you got the odd cosmic ray flipping a bit. Those >parts really needed a parity bit on external memory to >make absolutely sure you were safe ! All the non-PC systems I've ever used with CMOS memory since it was first available had ECC bits attached to correct single bit and detect double bit errors. The system error stats were always interesting: you could see which chips had bad bits, which were developing bad bits; and similarly with disk sectors. One thing Intel hardware/MS OSes lack is pre-failure error reporting; plus diagnostic and repair utilities that let you deal with these issues before they impact operation, like copying and remapping failing sectors, with the OS running normally. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Message-ID: <3C6F5F91.3FCEBE71@trailing-edge.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:45:21 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa Organization: Trailing Edge Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (X11; I; OpenVMS V7.2 AlphaServer 1200 5/533 4MB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3r5o4a.mo.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.73.218.130 X-Trace: 1013949922 reader1.ash.ops.us.uu.net 8048 63.73.218.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!spool0900.news.uu.net!reader0901.news.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102026 Chris Hedley wrote: > > According to : > > I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them > > was count of code lines written. And this was done to a > > very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. > > That is no way to treat your most talented people. > > That ties up nicely with the complaint that certain managers > seem determined not to understand the business they're in. Oh > well, "it's the quantity that counts, not the quality" seems to > be one of the core business models these days. You can go too far the other way - emphasizing process over product. In the worst case, you end up with an exquisitely crafted system - thoroughly documented, tested, and verified - that completely fails to meet the customer's actual needs. (Although it may very well meet the contractual spec!) Tim. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:57:23 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <3r5o4a.mo.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013947203 nnrp-02:7760 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102008 According to : > I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them > was count of code lines written. And this was done to a > very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. > That is no way to treat your most talented people. That ties up nicely with the complaint that certain managers seem determined not to understand the business they're in. Oh well, "it's the quantity that counts, not the quality" seems to be one of the core business models these days. Chris. ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:08:41 -0600 Organization: Utterly Disorganized Message-ID: Reply-To: william.hamblen@nashville.com Cancel-Lock: sha1:1KbI6qBUj9ydD9Z8BAJgDlBAcr0= References: <4cme4a.2p3.ln@teabag.cbhnet> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102064 On Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:57:55 -0700, Brian Inglis wrote: >The form of dress was that required for clerks working for >Victorian business professionals (accountants, lawyers, etc.) who >dressed conservatively themselves, and it may have been adopted >by the middle classes in an attempt to look more respectable. The current business suit is an Edwardian leisure suit. It came in about the time that detachable collars went out. One of the things that passed with 9 track tape was the CE's Tape Tie. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.191.122 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013970723 28332 213.122.191.122 (17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102047 Brian Inglis wrote in message news:9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com... [SNIP] > One thing Intel hardware/MS OSes lack is pre-failure error > reporting; plus diagnostic and repair utilities that let you deal True, but IBM hard-drives introduced SMART into their drives - and utilities to look at em. BIOSes offer SMART support too, which tracks various stats used for predicting hard failures. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:35:12 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3r5o4a.mo.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <3C6F5F91.3FCEBE71@trailing-edge.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.191.122 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013970912 28644 213.122.191.122 (17 Feb 2002 18:35:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:35:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102036 Tim Shoppa wrote in message news:3C6F5F91.3FCEBE71@trailing-edge.com... [SNIP] > You can go too far the other way - emphasizing process over > product. In the worst case, you end up with an exquisitely > crafted system - thoroughly documented, tested, and verified - > that completely fails to meet the customer's > actual needs. (Although it may very well meet the contractual That would suggest that the process failed then... Part of the development procss includes requirements analysis, if you get that wrong your process failed... This often fails and often costs a lot of money to fix. :) In one place I often came to blows with managers and salesmen because what they spec'ed didn't come anywhere close to what the customer wanted or needed. More often than not it was nothing more than a list of hardware, and grossly over-specified at that. :( Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:37:16 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDF6F.9CAEF528@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.191.122 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1013971036 28851 213.122.191.122 (17 Feb 2002 18:37:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:37:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102044 Chris Hedley wrote in message news:lrrm4a.r53.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to Charles Richmond : > > Also, the good boss will act as a "shit sheild" to keep the crap > > from upper management away. That allows the workers to keep their > > eyes on the technical goals and do the good work. There is a lot > > of truth in: "Your job is only as good as your immediate supervisor." > > I've had some very good "shit shields" in my time; really good guys > who had a Clue. Unfortunately, most line managers are shit amplifiers; Perhaps "Shit Attenuator" would be a classier and more accurate term... Pairs up nicely with "Shit Amplifier" too. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 02 10:15:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYEvoUBPxSb4MKHrmJi4DRZiHCpjRo7IyDAj+tVSlllIQemws8kOE6S X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2002 12:30:18 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102092 In article , Alan Greig wrote: >On Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:53:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >>I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them >>was count of code lines written. And this was done to a >>very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. >>That is no way to treat your most talented people. > >; The following code is just here >; to boost my salary >; wonder if they count >; comment lines as >; well >; > jfcl > jump start > skip > jfcl Exactly. How the hell do you count? For that matter, what do you count. The ASCII or the EXE size? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 02 10:17:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaxFMghecDqqDberiN1FYH7ebRA5gnXw9gCGJPWVye4Ea8i+7mmJKI7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2002 12:32:19 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102090 In article , Brian Inglis wrote: >On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" > wrote: > >>Brian Inglis wrote in message >>news:9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com... >>[SNIP] >>> One thing Intel hardware/MS OSes lack is pre-failure error >>> reporting; plus diagnostic and repair utilities that let you deal >> >>True, but IBM hard-drives introduced SMART into their >>drives - and utilities to look at em. BIOSes offer >>SMART support too, which tracks various stats used >>for predicting hard failures. > >IBM hard drives have had those smarts for decades -- they >realized that they needed those smarts if they wanted to be able >to use the same drives in their higher end systems. > >Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging >facilities. >Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of >memory and remap the sectors on the fly. > That isn't done now!?? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 02 10:54:32 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 64 Message-ID: References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY3cG4tHQCagb7ueJHN2ZN6l7KUYYFbKUaJ9wCqvKohngRrWRbKzTQf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2002 13:09:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-38 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102095 In article , "Bill Todd" wrote: > >"Stephen Fuld" wrote in message >news:6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > >.... > >> Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, >to >> what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was >> the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the >> competence of the upper management. > >While there was plenty of management incompetence - in allowing destructive >(rather than constructive) inter-product rivalries to develop and impede >product development, in failing to meet external threats aggressively, in >allowing wild vertical diversification without some discipline in figuring >out how things would work together - the corporation somehow managed to >handle all such issues for its first 25 years or so, just by 'doing the >right thing' (an over-simplification only if you weren't there to see how it >worked). Where it ran into problems was in trying to *change* this ethic to >something more conventional and formal: as (I think) you said, changing >corporate culture is *hard*. > >If IBM had a corporate culture that didn't need changing to make use of >conventional management, that alone could account for its survival (not that >its road hasn't been fairly rough at times too). Arguably DEC's culture >didn't need changing either, but it *did* require unconventional management, >and hence raised problems that IBM's did not. > >Not that DEC's culture was wrong in any way: it was the reason for DEC's >success. And while it's conceivable that such a culture may suddenly become >a liability rather than an asset when a corporation reaches some critical >size, I'm more inclined to believe that it simply requires different (from >conventional) management mechanisms. > >Management mechanisms must adjust to growth in *any* corporation, regardless >of its culture. The problem was that DEC required something other than COTS >managers and never figured out how to grow them (since they weren't being >grown externally) in the new numbers needed (or, alternatively, never >figured out that it *had* to do so rather than make 'minor' changes such >that more conventional management would work). We knew (LCG). We grew them, too. The problem was that once these managers were trained, they left. A few stuck around and percolated up but the majority went to other companies. I don't know how the minis grew them after everybody got separated. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:20:53 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.30a/30 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102104 In <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, on 02/14/02 at 05:10 PM, "Stephen Fuld" said: >I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up >some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with >competent people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be >able to do so, as did many other companies. Having done my time at IBM, I'm not sure that the % of competence was dramatically better than at DEC or many other places. The Peter principle is fairly universal. -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- We do precision guesswork. ###### From: "Stephen Fuld" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 02:09:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.72.161.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013998146 12.72.161.107 (Mon, 18 Feb 2002 02:09:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 02:09:06 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102094 "Julian Thomas" wrote in message news:3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net... > In <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, on 02/14/02 > > at 05:10 PM, "Stephen Fuld" said: > > >I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up > >some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with > >competent people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be > >able to do so, as did many other companies. > > Having done my time at IBM, I'm not sure that the % of competence was > dramatically better than at DEC or many other places. The Peter principle > is fairly universal. Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the competence of the upper management. -- - Stephen Fuld e-mail address disguised to prevent spam ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 18 Feb 2002 03:00:55 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014001255 8659 134.117.136.30 (18 Feb 2002 03:00:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2002 03:00:55 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.42.15.2!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102109 "Stephen Fuld" (s.fuld.pleaseremove@att.net) writes: > > Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to > what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was > the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the > competence of the upper management. I repeat the quote: "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM." And I'll be damned if I recall where I saw that the first time. ###### From: "del cecchi" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 47 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:26:51 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.233.80.119 X-Trace: eagle.america.net 1014002839 67.233.80.119 (Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:27:19 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 22:27:19 EST Organization: 24hoursupport.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!eagle.america.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102115 "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message news:6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > "Julian Thomas" wrote in message > news:3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net... > > In <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, on 02/14/02 > > > > at 05:10 PM, "Stephen Fuld" said: > > > > >I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it. but that does bring up > > >some questions. Why couldn't DEC fill its management slots with > > >competent people? At about the same time, IBM (for example) seemed to be > > >able to do so, as did many other companies. > > > > Having done my time at IBM, I'm not sure that the % of competence was > > dramatically better than at DEC or many other places. The Peter principle > > is fairly universal. > > > Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to > what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was > the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the > competence of the upper management. > > -- > - Stephen Fuld > e-mail address disguised to prevent spam > Many of us thought that some top IBM management were idiots. And some, like John Akers, were. My theory is that under Watson Jr and immediate followers IBM built up a lot of momentum, and losers like Opel and Akers took years to pull it down, along with the feds. We got lucky with Lou. He gets a lot of criticism from the troops in the company but he did turn things around. del cecchi ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 03:34:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.229.44 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014003268 199.174.229.44 (Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:34:28 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:34:28 PST X-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:34:27 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102097 "Stephen Fuld" writes: > Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to > what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was > the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the > competence of the upper management. according to 2nd hand that I heard about testimony at anti-trust trial ... one of the companies (that since went out of business) testified that in the late '50s every company in the industry knew that the single most important criteria to be succesful in the computer business was to have a compatihle hardware line across all models. correlary was that if you were the only company that got that single, most important criteria correct ... it might even be possible that you could did everything else wrong ... and still beat the competition. peak employment at ibm possibly approached 500k and the mainframes were (and are) the strategic workhorse of almost every industry. given the company size and the diversification around the world a lot more things would have to go wrong for a much longer period of time. repeat: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#44 bloat http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#20 1401 series emulation still running? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#184 Clustering systems http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#231 Why couldn't others compete against IBM? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#33 Big black helicopters http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#38 Big black helicopters http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#39 Big black helicopters http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#85 The demise of compaq even DEC's largest and most succesful market position ... is still dwarfed by the overall mainframe market. also, the mini-computer market felt the high-end workstations and then high-end PCs moving upstream into their markets (taking sales as well as cutting profit margins) long before such things started to directly affect mainframes. random ref: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 04:23:00 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-134-225.btinternet.com X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1014006180 11013 213.1.134.225 (18 Feb 2002 04:23:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 04:23:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102114 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote in message news:ud6z3a2jr.fsf@earthlink.net... > "Stephen Fuld" writes: > > Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to > > what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was > > the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the > > competence of the upper management. > > according to 2nd hand that I heard about testimony at anti-trust trial > ... one of the companies (that since went out of business) testified > that in the late '50s every company in the industry knew that the > single most important criteria to be succesful in the computer > business was to have a compatihle hardware line across all models. If you strip away the rest of the stuff, I'd have to agree. When I look back on it, the VAX looks an attempt to achieve the same thing that the 360 did for IBM. In the early days they seemed to think about doing this for the Alpha with the 21066 line. It's interesting that they dropped this pretty quickly, I think it might be a case of "We can't afford the development and we won't license the core to anyone else.". ARM, MIPS, SPARC and PowerPC seem to have thrived, perhaps because they license the cores. It means that the "owner" of the ISA doesn't have to expend huge amounts of R&D developing specialised parts, which is a necessity for the embedded biz. I'm not 100% convinced that code density was a serious concern back then. Power consumption certainly, but in terms of wattage/SPEC marks the Alpha was pretty respectable... Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:24:51 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5cr07uc9tglimmol05t5brlg1j71qp0kph@4ax.com> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3r5o4a.mo.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <3C6F5F91.3FCEBE71@trailing-edge.com> Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-133-26.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1014017092 15846 207.148.133.26 (18 Feb 2002 07:24:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:24:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!east1.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102135 On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:35:12 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >Tim Shoppa wrote in message >news:3C6F5F91.3FCEBE71@trailing-edge.com... >[SNIP] >> You can go too far the other way - emphasizing process over >> product. In the worst case, you end up with an exquisitely >> crafted system - thoroughly documented, tested, and verified - >> that completely fails to meet the customer's >> actual needs. (Although it may very well meet the contractual > >That would suggest that the process failed then... Part >of the development procss includes requirements analysis, >if you get that wrong your process failed... This often >fails and often costs a lot of money to fix. :) > >In one place I often came to blows with managers and >salesmen because what they spec'ed didn't come anywhere >close to what the customer wanted or needed. More often >than not it was nothing more than a list of hardware, >and grossly over-specified at that. :( Yes, there are (CMU SEI) CMM level 5 certified organizations who produce products and code that sucks/blows chunks -- gives the certification and process guys a lot of credibility in my book! -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:24:53 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-133-26.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1014017094 15846 207.148.133.26 (18 Feb 2002 07:24:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:24:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!xmission!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102129 On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:27:43 +0000, Gordon Gibson wrote: >Suits and management. Interesting stuff this. I'm sure you'll >forgive me for pointing out that a few preconceptions have been >showing through here - not to say a certain amount of bigotry. There >are urban legends about the accountants and salesmen shoving the >company down the tubes, but the reality is rather different. > >I saw one good company busted, and it was done by people who were >emphatically engineers - not marketdroids, not bean-counters. As >someone who has spent a mere 27 years in the industry, in one slot or >another, while I sympathise with the view that the suits occasionally >lost touch with the product, that to my mind was not the major reason >why the market walked away from mainframes and minicomps. Sounds like the company management failed to to their job, though: the engineers should not have been able to bust the company; although the dot-com fiasco proved that bright engineers can sometimes get money to fund even the stupidest development projects, without any hope of a return; that probably also applies to a lot of other bright people who can talk fast and make up believable numbers. >From my line of sight, these thing were just too _dedicated_, and >therefore ridiculously costly. Secondly, programmers and ops got >wildly above themselves and caused all sorts of unnecessary problems. >From a business point of view (and bear in mind that for most >businesses IT was only a service) it all became unwieldy and >troublesome. Sounds once again like a failure of business and IT management to deal with problems. The last line sounds like what I hear about PCs from IT and corporate management. >Flexibility and autonomy came with the IBM PC, and it was a blessing. >Piss-poor as they were (and they undoubtedly were), given a £100 >program, we could do all that black magic that had recently cost us >thousands of pounds. The bonus was that we no longer had to negotiate >with some jumped-up jackass who continually held the company to >ransom. (£100 program + £1000 software + £5000 PC + £5000 support/year) x n people = £3,100,000 for 100 people for 5 years black magic => complex/difficult work => costly to analyze/design If you avoid the analysis and design costs, you won't get correct results, and I know some companies who got burned by making decisions based on simple minded PC models which were totally inadequate in terms of undocumented and inaccurate assumptions, estimated input data, simplified calculations, and erroneous output: resulting in a mandate that decisions could only be made based on operational data produced directly from operational systems, and PC output had to have "produced on a PC" on every page, just in case anyone forgot the disasters. I have also heard management tell people to change the assumptions and calculations used in spreadsheet models to get a specific result, as the correct result did not support their political goals! >I'm completely in agreement with the idea of a Museum of Computing. >Many things were undoubtedly done better in the past. They just cost >more than business could bear at the time. At least business cases were prepared and evaluated carefully, and the returns calculated and checked that they were achieved. I am not sure that many businesses get any measurable benefit from the PCs strewn around companies like calculators used to be. I suspect the loss of productivity is one reason for the visible decline in service provided by and internal to most businesses. And that is probably attributable to the length of time to generate usable input and produce pretty output rather than just use a canned system to do the guts of a job. Once again the problem is management: lack of evaluation of the methods used, lack of training with systems, high learning curve for many clerical staff, lack of understanding of the business by anyone involved with the systems, lack of understanding of the systems by anyone in the business, and lack of measurement of benefits expected or achieved. In the old days, these failures would be very visible and result in firings and lawsuits; nowadays, they just cut into every department's bottom line, and eventually result in asset selloffs and staff layoffs, as management try to cover their asses and keep their bonuses. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:24:54 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-133-26.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1014017095 15846 207.148.133.26 (18 Feb 2002 07:24:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:24:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!east1.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!west2.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102128 On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >Brian Inglis wrote in message >news:9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com... >[SNIP] >> One thing Intel hardware/MS OSes lack is pre-failure error >> reporting; plus diagnostic and repair utilities that let you deal > >True, but IBM hard-drives introduced SMART into their >drives - and utilities to look at em. BIOSes offer >SMART support too, which tracks various stats used >for predicting hard failures. IBM hard drives have had those smarts for decades -- they realized that they needed those smarts if they wanted to be able to use the same drives in their higher end systems. Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging facilities. Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of memory and remap the sectors on the fly. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:27:17 +0000 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-890.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102134 On Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:53:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them >was count of code lines written. And this was done to a >very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. >That is no way to treat your most talented people. ; The following code is just here ; to boost my salary ; wonder if they count ; comment lines as ; well ; jfcl jump start skip jfcl > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. -- Alan ###### From: eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 18 Feb 2002 11:50:20 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: hortensia.etek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 1014033020 28632 129.16.32.92 (18 Feb 2002 11:50:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2002 11:50:20 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102116 Rupert Pigott wrote: >Andreas Långström wrote in message >news:a4j81o$ie1$1@nyheter.chalmers.se... >[SNIP] >> I'm member of an association called ETA. Should I shy away from it and > >Heh, no relation to ETA the CDC spin-off perchance... No. A student organisation at Chalmers University of Technology. It formed in 1935 to more or less force the Uni (and the government) to get a telecom (radio mostly) department instead of focusing the EE dept only on marine power electrics. /Andreas ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 46 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:47:40 CST X-Trace: sv3-aF8gN2H8v3Koc5U2eUT9qtemzw95oOB5gdE1FBUP1yncDHwbsQAXAb0Xx/an2I/PTPQLclCvntBjuiH!qf0sEE6MvYny9taWAUca6XJHVwSkqxI1kq2JsYNWkoZYq4oHG/pUZZc7ELYbfNDqXdMvE5VtR5/U!j4MCHI4qhpgDVj6oZ7hdHg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:47:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102140 "Stephen Fuld" wrote in message news:6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... ... > Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to > what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was > the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the > competence of the upper management. While there was plenty of management incompetence - in allowing destructive (rather than constructive) inter-product rivalries to develop and impede product development, in failing to meet external threats aggressively, in allowing wild vertical diversification without some discipline in figuring out how things would work together - the corporation somehow managed to handle all such issues for its first 25 years or so, just by 'doing the right thing' (an over-simplification only if you weren't there to see how it worked). Where it ran into problems was in trying to *change* this ethic to something more conventional and formal: as (I think) you said, changing corporate culture is *hard*. If IBM had a corporate culture that didn't need changing to make use of conventional management, that alone could account for its survival (not that its road hasn't been fairly rough at times too). Arguably DEC's culture didn't need changing either, but it *did* require unconventional management, and hence raised problems that IBM's did not. Not that DEC's culture was wrong in any way: it was the reason for DEC's success. And while it's conceivable that such a culture may suddenly become a liability rather than an asset when a corporation reaches some critical size, I'm more inclined to believe that it simply requires different (from conventional) management mechanisms. Management mechanisms must adjust to growth in *any* corporation, regardless of its culture. The problem was that DEC required something other than COTS managers and never figured out how to grow them (since they weren't being grown externally) in the new numbers needed (or, alternatively, never figured out that it *had* to do so rather than make 'minor' changes such that more conventional management would work). - bill ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:39:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.225.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014043189 199.174.225.33 (Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:39:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:39:49 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:39:49 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102100 Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > peak employment at ibm possibly approached 500k and the mainframes > were (and are) the strategic workhorse of almost every industry. given > the company size and the diversification around the world a lot more > things would have to go wrong for a much longer period of time. somewhat related article http://news.com.com/2100-1001-839483.html IBM loves mainframes because sales of the systems typically bring years of revenue from maintenance and software license agreements-- just the type of recurring revenue that helped carry the company through the current economic downturn comparatively unscathed. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Walter Rottenkolber" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:50:20 -0800 Lines: 31 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.92 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.92 Message-ID: <3c714fe1@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1014058977 209.155.25.92 (18 Feb 2002 11:02:57 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp.abs.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102085 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote in message ... >Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: >> peak employment at ibm possibly approached 500k and the mainframes >> were (and are) the strategic workhorse of almost every industry. given >> the company size and the diversification around the world a lot more >> things would have to go wrong for a much longer period of time. > >somewhat related article >http://news.com.com/2100-1001-839483.html > >IBM loves mainframes because sales of the systems typically bring >years of revenue from maintenance and software license agreements-- >just the type of recurring revenue that helped carry the company >through the current economic downturn comparatively unscathed. > >-- >Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ Works the other way too. There are companies that don't want to take on the hassle of computer purchase and maintainence. It becomes a simple current expense rather than a personnel and depreciation problem. On DDJ TeleWeb, a fellow from IBM explained the commitment to Linux for IBM's low end systems. They figure to gain more than lose from open source programs as a way to expand the utility of their systems. Walter Rottenkolber ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 18 Feb 2002 10:47:35 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <1bvgcufzrc.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1014054453 8799 128.123.64.113 (18 Feb 2002 17:47:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2002 17:47:33 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102087 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > > Exactly. How the hell do you count? For that matter, what do > you count. The ASCII or the EXE size? Years and years ago, I was picking out a bunch of word processors... one of the main selling points was that they could keep statistics on the secretaries' keystroke counts... My first question was always whether that ``feature'' could be disabled. It was quite a while later that I found out there was a whole generation of secretaries out there who had learned to put the left margin as far to the left as possible (so they could space to the real left margine), and never ever use a tab key. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### Message-ID: <3C715BA5.AB7D8642@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1014054778 12.237.69.87 (Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:52:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:52:58 GMT Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:52:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102132 Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > > Anne & Lynn Wheeler writes: > > peak employment at ibm possibly approached 500k and the mainframes > > were (and are) the strategic workhorse of almost every industry. given > > the company size and the diversification around the world a lot more > > things would have to go wrong for a much longer period of time. > > somewhat related article > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-839483.html > > IBM loves mainframes because sales of the systems typically bring > years of revenue from maintenance and software license agreements-- > just the type of recurring revenue that helped carry the company > through the current economic downturn comparatively unscathed. > IIRC, IBM *did* have some lay-offs during this "economic downturn". Also, *nothing* has carried IBM through the current downturn unscathed...because the current economic downturn is *not* over. We still have to wait and see... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C715C62.881362A0@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1014054967 12.237.69.87 (Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:56:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:56:07 GMT Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:56:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102130 > On Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:53:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them > >was count of code lines written. And this was done to a > >very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. > >That is no way to treat your most talented people. > IMHO it is *not* possible to over-estimate how stupid that management can be. Management prefers things that they can count, even if those things have *nothing* to do with the success of the business. To me, it is the management version of "whistling in the dark"... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:59:13 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.198.239 X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1014055153 8338 213.122.198.239 (18 Feb 2002 17:59:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:59:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102123 Brian Inglis wrote in message news:n2517u8vtodmam9v092lql2qk4dfbg3gk5@4ax.com... > On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" > wrote: > > >Brian Inglis wrote in message > >news:9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com... > >[SNIP] > >> One thing Intel hardware/MS OSes lack is pre-failure error > >> reporting; plus diagnostic and repair utilities that let you deal > > > >True, but IBM hard-drives introduced SMART into their > >drives - and utilities to look at em. BIOSes offer > >SMART support too, which tracks various stats used > >for predicting hard failures. > > IBM hard drives have had those smarts for decades -- they > realized that they needed those smarts if they wanted to be able > to use the same drives in their higher end systems. Yes, I was talking low-end SCSI and IDE systems there. The 2.1 and 4.3Gbyte SCSI drives I bought from em in '97 have S.M.A.R.T support. Not that many OSes seem to care about it. :) > Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging > facilities. > Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of > memory and remap the sectors on the fly. I believe that's already covered by (guess who, IBM) in their PC servers. :) ECC memory is old hat in the PC world. IIRC even the early IBM PC's had parity ! Most people think that their desktop PC's don't need ECC memory, I agreed until a guy at INMOS prompted me to work out the MTBF for a DRAM subsystem using the most reliable contemporary DRAMs. The result was about 6 hours for a 4Mbyte chunk of DRAM. I doubt that things have got much better these days because the sheer amount of DRAM installed in modern machinary will compensate for any improvements in DRAM reliability. This is one area where Cray might have been out to lunch. He was reputed to have been against the use of parity (probably for performance reasons and it also potentially makes an architecture untidy). Cheers, Rupert ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c714fe1@news.sierratel.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 43 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:23:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.224.231 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014056622 199.174.224.231 (Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:23:42 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:23:42 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:23:42 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102101 "Walter Rottenkolber" writes: > > Works the other way too. There are companies that don't want to take on the > hassle of computer purchase and maintainence. It becomes a simple current > expense rather than a personnel and depreciation problem. > > On DDJ TeleWeb, a fellow from IBM explained the commitment to Linux for > IBM's low end systems. They figure to gain more than lose from open source > programs as a way to expand the utility of their systems. there are a lot of companies that don't ... but there is also significant profit margin and revenue for providing such products for the companies that do. remember ... genesis of a lot of ibm current (software) product offerings was during the era where everything was open source (hasp, cp/67, vm/370, etc) and some number of them were actually written/developed at customer sites (hasp, cics, etc). It seemed that the industry then went thru a long period of ossification where rather than need for agile & rapid advances (which open source promotes) ... it was era of consolidation and protecting installed turf. There were lots of vocal customers during the late '70s & early '80s complaining about the transition to OCO (object code only) ... as opposed to the early convention of open and freely distributed source. I think there was a line in the ibm mainframe ng about determining where the profit margins & where vendors can establish product differentiation (and operating system and proprietary can be an inhibitor in some of these market segments). In the 50s, 60s, etc ... there was a lot of attention placed on hardware compatibility. In the 80s that started to move upstream into operating system compatibility and interoperability ... at least for some market segments. For those market segments where agility to move quickly to different vendor hardware products ... operating system compatibility and interoperability is significant factor (not necessarily hardware compatibility). Open source is making a "come-back" and playing more & more of a significant role in these market segments. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: Terje Mathisen Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:37:35 +0100 Organization: Hydro Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.164.29.22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.70.164.134!news.ost.eltele.no!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!hydro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102080 Alan Greig wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:53:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > >I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them > >was count of code lines written. And this was done to a > >very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. > >That is no way to treat your most talented people. > > ; The following code is just here > ; to boost my salary > ; wonder if they count > ; comment lines as > ; well > ; > jfcl > jump start > skip > jfcl A couple of relevant quotes, both from memory: "I apologize for making this letter so long, as I did not have the time to make it shorter" "Perfection is reached not when there is nothing to add, but when there is nothing to remove" Terje -- - "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching" ###### From: Terje Mathisen Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:47:48 +0100 Organization: Hydro Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C715C62.881362A0@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 136.164.29.22 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.213.112.26!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!hydro.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102081 Charles Richmond wrote: > > > On Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:53:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > >I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them > > >was count of code lines written. And this was done to a > > >very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. > > >That is no way to treat your most talented people. > > > IMHO it is *not* possible to over-estimate how stupid > that management can be. Management prefers things that > they can count, even if those things have *nothing* to > do with the success of the business. To me, it is the > management version of "whistling in the dark"... The proper term is 'Key Performance Indicators': If you fullfill enough of your KPIs you get your bonus, right? So how do management define these KPIs? The natural way is to find things that are easy to measure, even if they have absolutely nothing to do with the way the company needs to develop. :-( We've had some of these, and still have a few marginal ones, but things are definitely improving hereabouts! :-) Terje -- - "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching" ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 18 Feb 2002 20:44:05 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 55 Message-ID: <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1014061445 492 10.0.3.2 (18 Feb 2002 19:44:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Feb 2002 19:44:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102141 "Rupert Pigott" writes: > Brian Inglis wrote in message > news:n2517u8vtodmam9v092lql2qk4dfbg3gk5@4ax.com... > > On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" > > wrote: > > > > Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging > > facilities. > > Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of > > memory and remap the sectors on the fly. > > I believe that's already covered by (guess who, IBM) in > their PC servers. :) No need to even look at servers. The SGI O2 workstation I work on at the university has ECC. And it suffers an soft ECC error about once every 2 month. And reports it in form of an dialog box and an syslog entry. > ECC memory is old hat in the PC world. IIRC even the early > IBM PC's had parity ! And PCs had it up until the 486 generation and then dropped it for the Pentium generation. Despite 8 parity bits being enough to upgrade to ECC. But ECC slows machines down even more than parity, so ... > ECC memory, I agreed until a guy at INMOS prompted me > to work out the MTBF for a DRAM subsystem using the > most reliable contemporary DRAMs. The result was about > 6 hours for a 4Mbyte chunk of DRAM. Huh? I think he misscalculated. Around 1990 I read about the design of an 60-Transputer machine, with 60*36 DRAM chips. They added parity to that after calculating an expected false bit every 2 weeks (roughly the intended computation time, it was some molecule simulator). > This is one area where Cray might have been out to > lunch. He was reputed to have been against the use > of parity (probably for performance reasons and it > also potentially makes an architecture untidy). Both parity and ECC delay using data from memory, as one needs to wait for the confirmation that it is OK. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <_hDa8.20661$d34.1140749@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c714fe1@news.sierratel.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:17:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.224.231 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014059823 199.174.224.231 (Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:17:03 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:17:03 PST X-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:17:03 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news.ebroadbandnow.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!131.119.28.146!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102144 "Walter Rottenkolber" writes: > > On DDJ TeleWeb, a fellow from IBM explained the commitment to Linux for > IBM's low end systems. They figure to gain more than lose from open source > programs as a way to expand the utility of their systems. the other way of looking at it ... is that a lot of the "standardization" efforts is a commoditization effort ... remove many of the differentiators/proprietary allowing customers to easily/trivially jump from one vendor to another. in a market segment that has significant orientation towards standardized commoditization ... vendors have to look for other places with regard to profit margin. very thin profit margins may be very attractive to some customer segments ... however if the profit margin gets too thin, the corporate entity may not be able to continue to exist. This can create downside effects to some customers in that market segment. On the other hand, it could also be viewed as darwinism in action. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 18 Feb 02 13:03:13 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-894.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102154 In article <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com (Terje Mathisen) writes: >A couple of relevant quotes, both from memory: > >"I apologize for making this letter so long, as I did not have the time >to make it shorter" > >"Perfection is reached not when there is nothing to add, but when there >is nothing to remove" I can just hear your typical PHB or marketroid: "Oh, but those people lived in ancient times. Those ideas are so outdated now." Many people believe in change for its own sake. If something already works well, then they'll have to break it. My wife got a call from a Globe & Mail telemarketer the other night. When she said that she didn't like being bothered by telemarketers at supper time, the jerk on the other end said something to the effect of "get used to it", as if this was the Way of the Future and she should be glad she wasn't being left in the past. Too bad the asshole hung up before she could ask him why, if he was so concerned with being up to date, we should subscribe to a centuries-old medium like newspaper. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 02 09:14:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <1bvgcufzrc.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYm8lGnxVOqAqn9zOu+gic5dP/8HZpcCJilZiT6Lz3Oakh0MW1QXbIM X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 11:29:30 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-182 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102176 In article <1bvgcufzrc.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: >> >> Exactly. How the hell do you count? For that matter, what do >> you count. The ASCII or the EXE size? > >Years and years ago, I was picking out a bunch of word processors... >one of the main selling points was that they could keep statistics on >the secretaries' keystroke counts... My first question was always >whether that ``feature'' could be disabled. It was quite a while >later that I found out there was a whole generation of secretaries out >there who had learned to put the left margin as far to the left as >possible (so they could space to the real left margine), and never >ever use a tab key. Of course. Nobody thinks about the quality of each keystroke so that efficienct document production increases. I went through all of this in my first years at DEC. It's one of the reasons I worked very, very hard to get all of DEC's documentation into bits rather than typed pieces of paper where a one-character change could have a side-effect of having a whole chapter retyped. There are times when I feel that I'm the only one who insists on quality work, period. Then I come here to feel better :-). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 02 09:16:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C715C62.881362A0@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZ7RdnkW/vJXKhrn4VVGI8QJWJB3ULrMK5z9pgg+UBsENxl/MplsGt7 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 11:31:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-182 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102173 In article <3C715C62.881362A0@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Feb 02 08:53:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >I heard stories about how evaluations were done. One of them >> >was count of code lines written. And this was done to a >> >very adept ex-TOPS-20 developer! I could not believe it. >> >That is no way to treat your most talented people. >> >IMHO it is *not* possible to over-estimate how stupid >that management can be. Management prefers things that >they can count, even if those things have *nothing* to >do with the success of the business. To me, it is the >management version of "whistling in the dark"... > It's significant that Digital turned their software development groups into COBOL shops. Specualtion: Misoft infection? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 02 09:22:23 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZcQhVQykivv/NXkJpsEISXmSVwUdu0AEZgy03kB3w1vw7mjO6bKlzS X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 11:37:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-182 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102170 [pare a newsgroup] In article <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> >> In article <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> >> terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com (Terje Mathisen) writes: >> >> >A couple of relevant quotes, both from memory: >> > >> >"I apologize for making this letter so long, as I did not have the time >> >to make it shorter" >> > >> >"Perfection is reached not when there is nothing to add, but when there >> >is nothing to remove" >> >> I can just hear your typical PHB or marketroid: "Oh, but those >> people lived in ancient times. Those ideas are so outdated now." >> >> Many people believe in change for its own sake. If something already >> works well, then they'll have to break it. >> >> My wife got a call from a Globe & Mail telemarketer the other night. >> When she said that she didn't like being bothered by telemarketers >> at supper time, the jerk on the other end said something to the >> effect of "get used to it", as if this was the Way of the Future >> and she should be glad she wasn't being left in the past. Too >> bad the asshole hung up before she could ask him why, if he was >> so concerned with being up to date, we should subscribe to a >> centuries-old medium like newspaper. > >I have a ritual for them, as the mood hits: > >me: Have you a pencil and paper handy? >it: yes >me: well, write this down >it: what >me: my telephone no. >it: what is it? >me: the one you dialed >it: .... > .... >me: now add this in big letters at the top >it: what >me: DO NOT CALL LIST. Underline it. > If it: is female, you must add the line "bitch" just before it: hangs up. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 02 09:19:30 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-507.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.94.211.44!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102158 In article <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> cm@mihalis.net (Chris Morgan) writes: >Arargh! writes: > >> My solution: >> >> As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the >> caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. >> >> Also, having an Unpublished/Unlisted number helps. > >Tactics that have worked for me : > >"Sorry, I just lost my job" > >"Sorry, we gave all our charitable donations to the Red Cross". > >They were both true ... at least when first used. Often I manage to avoid talking at all. If I don't hear a voice within two seconds of answering the phone, I hang up. My guess is that many telemarketers use an automatic dialer, which notifies the next available agent when the victim answers. Have you ever noticed several seconds of dead air when you pick up the phone - and how it only seems to happen when a telemarketer calls you? I use this to keep the connection from even going through. A legitimate caller will call back; a telemarketer won't. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### Message-ID: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:40:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.171.73 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014072014 12.90.171.73 (Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:40:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:40:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!rockie.attcanada.net!newsfeed.attcanada.net!204.127.161.4!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102206 Rupert Pigott wrote: > ... snip ... > > ECC memory is old hat in the PC world. IIRC even the early > IBM PC's had parity ! > > Most people think that their desktop PC's don't need > ECC memory, I agreed until a guy at INMOS prompted me > to work out the MTBF for a DRAM subsystem using the > most reliable contemporary DRAMs. The result was about > 6 hours for a 4Mbyte chunk of DRAM. I doubt that things > have got much better these days because the sheer > amount of DRAM installed in modern machinary will > compensate for any improvements in DRAM reliability. There are many many people complaining about hard/software who really should be complaining about memory. I usually take every opportunity I find on newsgroups to point out that no machine should ever be bought without ECC, and the long term sneaky delayed effects of bit dropping. Usually I get sneered at. Proselitize (sp?) now. BTW, the most likely noticeable end effect is a BSOD, cleared after a reboot. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:33:40 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-133-19.btinternet.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1014075220 29202 213.1.133.19 (18 Feb 2002 23:33:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:33:40 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!xmission!isdnet!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102185 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... [SNIP] > No need to even look at servers. The SGI O2 workstation I work on at But O2's are *REAL* machines, not these orrible little PC things. :P [SNIP] > Huh? I think he misscalculated. Quite likely that I did miscalculate, I was only little at the time and learning fast... It wouldn't surprise me if I picked up an out of date databook. :) > Around 1990 I read about the design of an 60-Transputer machine, with > 60*36 DRAM chips. They added parity to that after calculating an > expected false bit every 2 weeks (roughly the intended computation > time, it was some molecule simulator). The 60*36 sounds like they already had parity in there. > > This is one area where Cray might have been out to > > lunch. He was reputed to have been against the use > > of parity (probably for performance reasons and it > > also potentially makes an architecture untidy). > > Both parity and ECC delay using data from memory, as one needs to wait > for the confirmation that it is OK. Not necessarily. Although ECC certainly introduces latency. I suspect that for modern processors it would make very little difference. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3C71A65E.464B9400@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:18:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.176.103 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014081496 12.90.176.103 (Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:18:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:18:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102207 Neil Franklin wrote: > > "Rupert Pigott" writes: > > > Brian Inglis wrote in message > > news:n2517u8vtodmam9v092lql2qk4dfbg3gk5@4ax.com... > > > On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" > > > wrote: > > > > > > Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging > > > facilities. > > > Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of > > > memory and remap the sectors on the fly. > > > > I believe that's already covered by (guess who, IBM) in > > their PC servers. :) > > No need to even look at servers. The SGI O2 workstation I work on > at the university has ECC. And it suffers an soft ECC error about > once every 2 month. And reports it in form of an dialog box and > an syslog entry. > > > ECC memory is old hat in the PC world. IIRC even the early > > IBM PC's had parity ! > > And PCs had it up until the 486 generation and then dropped it > for the Pentium generation. Despite 8 parity bits being enough > to upgrade to ECC. But ECC slows machines down even more than > parity, so ... > > > ECC memory, I agreed until a guy at INMOS prompted me > > to work out the MTBF for a DRAM subsystem using the > > most reliable contemporary DRAMs. The result was about > > 6 hours for a 4Mbyte chunk of DRAM. > > Huh? I think he misscalculated. > > Around 1990 I read about the design of an 60-Transputer machine, > with 60*36 DRAM chips. They added parity to that after > calculating an expected false bit every 2 weeks (roughly the > intended computation time, it was some molecule simulator). > > > This is one area where Cray might have been out to > > lunch. He was reputed to have been against the use > > of parity (probably for performance reasons and it > > also potentially makes an architecture untidy). > > Both parity and ECC delay using data from memory, as one needs > to wait for the confirmation that it is OK. So what? Firstly that delay is short compared to memory access time, and secondly I find memory values with flipped bits to be singularly useless, in fact extremely dangerous. How many nanoseconds is an erroneous result worth? How about an erroneous result that is assumed correct? Do you want your drug dosages dispensed by a machine without ECC? The next time you fly use Bonehead Airways, where their navigation systems operate without ECC or parity checking. Ooops, cosmic ray, watchout mountain. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:42:19 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 56 Message-ID: <6av27uohpsodqr8h15uhkmbievm839v5cd@4ax.com> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-141-100.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1014082940 6533 207.148.141.100 (19 Feb 2002 01:42:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:42:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102203 On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:59:13 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" wrote: >Brian Inglis wrote in message >news:n2517u8vtodmam9v092lql2qk4dfbg3gk5@4ax.com... >> On Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Rupert Pigott" >> wrote: >> >> >Brian Inglis wrote in message >> >news:9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com... >> >[SNIP] >> Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging >> facilities. >> Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of >> memory and remap the sectors on the fly. > >I believe that's already covered by (guess who, IBM) in >their PC servers. :) > >ECC memory is old hat in the PC world. IIRC even the early >IBM PC's had parity ! ECC means, to me, at least single bit error correction, on the fly with no added wait states, and double bit error detection. I have never used parity memory on any system: preferring to pay for better quality engineering rather than the cheapest available. >Most people think that their desktop PC's don't need >ECC memory, I agreed until a guy at INMOS prompted me >to work out the MTBF for a DRAM subsystem using the >most reliable contemporary DRAMs. The result was about >6 hours for a 4Mbyte chunk of DRAM. I doubt that things >have got much better these days because the sheer >amount of DRAM installed in modern machinary will >compensate for any improvements in DRAM reliability. > >This is one area where Cray might have been out to >lunch. He was reputed to have been against the use >of parity (probably for performance reasons and it >also potentially makes an architecture untidy). Might he have been against parity and for ECC? Makes single bit failures transparent to the software. OTOH maybe he preferred a different kind of memory that did not suffer those failure modes where parity/ECC is a benefit. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:13:29 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6av27uohpsodqr8h15uhkmbievm839v5cd@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.202.85 X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1014084809 11795 213.122.202.85 (19 Feb 2002 02:13:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:13:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102186 Brian Inglis wrote in message news:6av27uohpsodqr8h15uhkmbievm839v5cd@4ax.com... [SNIP] > Might he have been against parity and for ECC? > Makes single bit failures transparent to the software. > OTOH maybe he preferred a different kind of memory that did not > suffer those failure modes where parity/ECC is a benefit. The impression I get is that Cray was against anything which got in the way of performance... IIRC the original CRAY-1 didn't have parity or ECC, but it was fitted with ECC after pressure from a customer. Not surprising really, you don't want a multi-million dollar machine producing untrust worthy results or tripping over all the time. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.176.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014085510 12.90.176.12 (Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102209 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> > terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com (Terje Mathisen) writes: > > >A couple of relevant quotes, both from memory: > > > >"I apologize for making this letter so long, as I did not have the time > >to make it shorter" > > > >"Perfection is reached not when there is nothing to add, but when there > >is nothing to remove" > > I can just hear your typical PHB or marketroid: "Oh, but those > people lived in ancient times. Those ideas are so outdated now." > > Many people believe in change for its own sake. If something already > works well, then they'll have to break it. > > My wife got a call from a Globe & Mail telemarketer the other night. > When she said that she didn't like being bothered by telemarketers > at supper time, the jerk on the other end said something to the > effect of "get used to it", as if this was the Way of the Future > and she should be glad she wasn't being left in the past. Too > bad the asshole hung up before she could ask him why, if he was > so concerned with being up to date, we should subscribe to a > centuries-old medium like newspaper. I have a ritual for them, as the mood hits: me: Have you a pencil and paper handy? it: yes me: well, write this down it: what me: my telephone no. it: what is it? me: the one you dialed it: .... .... me: now add this in big letters at the top it: what me: DO NOT CALL LIST. Underline it. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:09:02 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZHcsJgy68yUCoxu1iis87rU+OdtwySnC3w965Uq13aP52EqdCcAj+u X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 06:10:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102204 On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: > >I have a ritual for them, as the mood hits: > >me: Have you a pencil and paper handy? >it: yes >me: well, write this down >it: what >me: my telephone no. >it: what is it? >me: the one you dialed >it: .... > .... >me: now add this in big letters at the top >it: what >me: DO NOT CALL LIST. Underline it. That takes too loog. My solution: As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. Also, having an Unpublished/Unlisted number helps. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Chris Morgan Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 03:24:21 -0500 Organization: Linux Hackers Unlimited Message-ID: <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> Sender: cm@tweety.mihalis.net References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102188 Arargh! writes: > My solution: > > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > > Also, having an Unpublished/Unlisted number helps. Tactics that have worked for me : "Sorry, I just lost my job" "Sorry, we gave all our charitable donations to the Red Cross". They were both true ... at least when first used. -- Chris Morgan http://www.mihalis.net Temp sig. - Enquire within ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:34:47 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-142-218.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1014107688 15888 207.148.142.218 (19 Feb 2002 08:34:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:34:48 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!xmission!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102200 On 18 Feb 02 13:03:13 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> >terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com (Terje Mathisen) writes: > >>A couple of relevant quotes, both from memory: >> >>"I apologize for making this letter so long, as I did not have the time >>to make it shorter" >> >>"Perfection is reached not when there is nothing to add, but when there >>is nothing to remove" > >I can just hear your typical PHB or marketroid: "Oh, but those >people lived in ancient times. Those ideas are so outdated now." > >Many people believe in change for its own sake. If something already >works well, then they'll have to break it. > >My wife got a call from a Globe & Mail telemarketer the other night. >When she said that she didn't like being bothered by telemarketers >at supper time, the jerk on the other end said something to the >effect of "get used to it", as if this was the Way of the Future >and she should be glad she wasn't being left in the past. Too >bad the asshole hung up before she could ask him why, if he was >so concerned with being up to date, we should subscribe to a >centuries-old medium like newspaper. Sounds like they're trying to get even with assholes^Wsavvy consumers like me saying "not interested" and hanging up as soon as they say "Globe & Mail" or whatever the charity or product is: I don't answer during meal times. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Message-ID: <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:00:40 +0100 From: Bernd Paysan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.10-4GB i686) X-Accept-Language: de, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C715C62.881362A0@ev1.net> <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.139.17.38 X-Trace: 1014123611 read.news.de.uu.net 182 194.139.17.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@de.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!asynchrone!asynchrone-stat!deine.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed03.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!read.news.de.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102199 Neil Barnes schrieb: > Ah. You don't then get the idiocy of grades: > > 5 inadequate performance > 4 could use improvement, does not always meet target > 3 meets expected performance > 2 often exceeds expected performance > 1 always exceeds expected performance > > where it is necessary to hit a large number of 2s or preferably 1s before a > bonus is even considered? This is usually coupled with kpis like > > o completes timesheets on time - expected performance 100% You forgot the catch-22. If you exceed expected performance, you are a thread to your boss. Since the bonus *also* depends on your boss speaking for you in a meeting of bosses, you won't get any, either ("Who's that Dilbert guy?"). -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ ###### Message-ID: <3C724658.336DED36@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.231 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014122193 12.90.173.231 (Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:33 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:33 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102208 "Arargh!" wrote: > > CBFalconer wrote: > > > > > >I have a ritual for them, as the mood hits: > > > >me: Have you a pencil and paper handy? > >it: yes > >me: well, write this down > >it: what > >me: my telephone no. > >it: what is it? > >me: the one you dialed > >it: .... > > .... > >me: now add this in big letters at the top > >it: what > >me: DO NOT CALL LIST. Underline it. > > That takes too loog. My two loogs are gyring in the mendacious wabes. Consider it my contribution to the ecology. As long as they are dealing with me they are not disturbing others. As I said, when the mood hits. At other times the response is PLONK, or, if I am feeling more loquacious, "no, PLONK". Another one that I haven't used for some time is the referees whistle. One simply places it near the mouthpiece and blows hard. I guess I am becoming more tolerant with age. BTW, on-line forms that insist on a phone number are usually satisfied with (AREA)555-1212. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:19:43 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1014125405 nnrp-14:22481 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102165 According to Stephen Fuld : > Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to > what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was > the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the > competence of the upper management. IBM fired its worst management liabilities and started to recover shortly afterwards; DEC hired those very same people and its decline accelarated shortly afterwards (this was in about '94/95) Chris. ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:12:12 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-163.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102194 In article <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net>, cm@mihalis.net says... > Arargh! writes: > > > My solution: > > > > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > > > > Also, having an Unpublished/Unlisted number helps. > > Tactics that have worked for me : > > "Sorry, I just lost my job" > > "Sorry, we gave all our charitable donations to the Red Cross". A friend has a routine with telemarketers who know his name ("is Mr. X at home"). He tells them that "This is Mr. X's brother and that Mr. X just passed away this morning." "How dare you be so insensitive to call at such a time." Well, one time he *didn't* use this line. Good thing, too! It was his credit card company asking about some suspicious charges being made on his account (they were legitimate - daughter getting set up a college cross country). ---- Keith ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:18:53 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-600.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102196 In article , Arargh@Arargh.com says... > On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT, CBFalconer > wrote: > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. That's my normal approach (other than not answering the phone at all or listening for the void of the preemptive dialer), but one time I recognized the company immediately, so I played along. The marketer was selling book subscriptions for children and got my son's name from one of the school magazines, I suppose. ANyway I let him go through the sales pitch and asked him several times if these were the *right* books to enhance my son's reading abilities. After 20 minutes, I thanked him for reassuring me that the books I'd already been subscribed to for *FIVE YEARS* weren't a waste of money. My wife thought that was nasty. I agreed, it was nasty to waste my time like that. ---- Keith ###### Message-ID: <3C7276C1.F7C0FEBD@uab.ericsson.se> From: Barry Watson Organization: Ericsson Utvecklings AB X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: sv,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:01:05 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 134.138.113.223 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@uab.ericsson.se X-Trace: uab.ericsson.se 1014134467 134.138.113.223 (Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:01:07 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:01:07 MET Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!uab.ericsson.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102175 "Keith R. Williams" wrote: > > In article , > Arargh@Arargh.com says... > > On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT, CBFalconer > > wrote: > > > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > > That's my normal approach (other than not answering the phone at all or > listening for the void of the preemptive dialer), but one time I > recognized the company immediately, so I played along. Why don't you just lay the receiver down beside the phone and go back to whatever you were doing. Come back in 15 mins and the telemarketer has hung up as well. It wastes there time and very little of yours. ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 10:20:02 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1014139201 16564 128.123.64.113 (19 Feb 2002 17:20:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 17:20:01 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102168 Arargh! writes: > > My solution: > > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. That generally works pretty well. I was pretty appalled recently when Qwest started calling us daily with some stupid offer; after a week of it I pointed out how many times I'd said no before hanging up, and they finally got the message. There is something especially aggravating about your *phone* *company* misusing your telephone for telemarketing. I'd much rather they devote their energy to running DSL out here.... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 10:21:54 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1br8nh2xql.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1014139313 16564 128.123.64.113 (19 Feb 2002 17:21:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 17:21:53 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102162 Keith R. Williams writes: > > > > Tactics that have worked for me : > > > > "Sorry, I just lost my job" > > > > "Sorry, we gave all our charitable donations to the Red Cross". > > A friend has a routine with telemarketers who know his name ("is Mr. X > at home"). He tells them that "This is Mr. X's brother and that Mr. X > just passed away this morning." "How dare you be so insensitive to call > at such a time." In what sense do these tactics ``work'' any better than just saying no? -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Chris Morgan Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 13:05:16 -0500 Organization: Linux Hackers Unlimited Message-ID: <87664tl543.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> Sender: cm@tweety.mihalis.net References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1br8nh2xql.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news.he.net!news!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102183 Joe Pfeiffer writes: > Keith R. Williams writes: > > > > > > Tactics that have worked for me : > > > > > > "Sorry, I just lost my job" > > > > > > "Sorry, we gave all our charitable donations to the Red Cross". > > > > A friend has a routine with telemarketers who know his name ("is Mr. X > > at home"). He tells them that "This is Mr. X's brother and that Mr. X > > just passed away this morning." "How dare you be so insensitive to call > > at such a time." > > In what sense do these tactics ``work'' any better than just saying no? They often don't try again if you seem like a bad prospect. There is a fund-raising company (or perhaps a scam) that rings me here in brooklyn for a never-ending series of worthy sounding charities (fraternal order of police, disabled firefighters etc etc). Their pitch is clever in that they ask you for permission to send you a sticker showing your support ... and then say (something like) would that be the $15, $30, or $50 level. Previously I was 'embarrassed' to have missed the point and opted for some level of sticker, so they were ringing more and more often however now I'm wise to it and use one of the above tactics. Each individual charity never rings back. I think they eventually time out and put me back at the bottom of the pile of prospects. Funnily enough they rang me about 5 minutes ago, dragging me out of my sick bed. I'm sure the three hangups earlier in the day were completely unrelated ;) -- Chris Morgan http://www.mihalis.net Temp sig. - Enquire within ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 20:35:38 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 36 Message-ID: <6uk7t9w9h1.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1014147338 357 10.0.3.2 (19 Feb 2002 19:35:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 19:35:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102210 "Rupert Pigott" writes: > Neil Franklin wrote in message > news:6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > > > Around 1990 I read about the design of an 60-Transputer machine, with > > 60*36 DRAM chips. They added parity to that after calculating an > > expected false bit every 2 weeks (roughly the intended computation > > time, it was some molecule simulator). > > The 60*36 sounds like they already had parity in there. That was after the re-design. Originally they intended 60*32. > > > This is one area where Cray might have been out to > > > lunch. He was reputed to have been against the use > > > of parity (probably for performance reasons and it > > > also potentially makes an architecture untidy). > > > > Both parity and ECC delay using data from memory, as one needs to wait > > for the confirmation that it is OK. > > Not necessarily. Although ECC certainly introduces > latency. I suspect that for modern processors it would > make very little difference. It surely appears as -1% in then oh so crucial benchmarks. Try getting an marketin^WPC firm to explain to their twit^Wcustomers why they should pay more for less speed. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 20:42:11 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6uheodw964.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <3C71A65E.464B9400@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1014147731 357 10.0.3.2 (19 Feb 2002 19:42:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 19:42:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102211 CBFalconer writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > "Rupert Pigott" writes: > > > > > This is one area where Cray might have been out to > > > lunch. He was reputed to have been against the use > > > of parity (probably for performance reasons and it > > > also potentially makes an architecture untidy). > > > Both parity and ECC delay using data from memory, as one needs > > to wait for the confirmation that it is OK. > > So what? Firstly that delay is short compared to memory access > time, Your PC does Quake2 with 72.4 fps for $2345, your competitors does 72.5fps at $2343. Twit^Wcustomer goes and buys from "better value" competitor. Lack of sales removes you from the market. Welcome to the victory of crapitalism. > and secondly I find memory values with flipped bits to be > singularly useless, in fact extremely dangerous. Dito applies to software with bugs. The Twits seem to like it. > result that is assumed correct? Do you want your drug dosages > dispensed by a machine without ECC? The next time you fly use > Bonehead Airways, where their navigation systems operate without > ECC or parity checking. Ooops, cosmic ray, watchout mountain. Aparently Cray likes/d that so. I was just documenting his logic. Not supporting it. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 20:48:25 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1014148108 357 10.0.3.2 (19 Feb 2002 19:48:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 19:48:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102212 "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > In article <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> cm@mihalis.net > (Chris Morgan) writes: > > >Arargh! writes: > > > >> As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > >> caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > > Often I manage to avoid talking at all. If I don't hear a voice > within two seconds of answering the phone, I hang up. And lose. You have already taken the damage (disturbance) and with immediate hangup are saving them both punishment and are not getting off their lists. So you should develop techiques to waste their time, or develop techniques to get off their lists, or both. > My guess > is that many telemarketers use an automatic dialer, which notifies > the next available agent when the victim answers. Have you ever > noticed several seconds of dead air when you pick up the phone - > and how it only seems to happen when a telemarketer calls you? Standard practise. > I use this to keep the connection from even going through. As you have already picked up the reciever, the call has gone through - to you. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Message-ID: <3C729F71.9030106@srv.net> From: Kevin Handy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.8+) Gecko/20020212 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:42:42 EST Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - "ReInventing The UseNet" Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:54:41 -0700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!hub1.meganetnews.com!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102225 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > Often I manage to avoid talking at all. If I don't hear a voice > within two seconds of answering the phone, I hang up. My guess > is that many telemarketers use an automatic dialer, which notifies > the next available agent when the victim answers. Have you ever > noticed several seconds of dead air when you pick up the phone - > and how it only seems to happen when a telemarketer calls you? > I use this to keep the connection from even going through. > A legitimate caller will call back; a telemarketer won't. What do you mean "a telemarketer won't"? In my experience they will call back, then call back, then call back, ... even if you ask them not to call again. ###### Message-ID: <3C72C0AB.42AD@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> From: "H. E. Taylor" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:21:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.45.247.73 X-Complaints-To: admin@mts.net X-Trace: news2.mts.net 1014146492 206.45.247.73 (Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:21:32 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:21:32 CST Organization: MTS Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone.bc.net!news-in.mts.net!news2.mts.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102218 In article <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > In article <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> cm@mihalis.net > (Chris Morgan) writes: >>Arargh! writes: >>> >>> My solution: >>> >>> As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the >>> caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. >>> >>> Also, having an Unpublished/Unlisted number helps. >> >>Tactics that have worked for me : >> >>"Sorry, I just lost my job" >> >>"Sorry, we gave all our charitable donations to the Red Cross". >> >>They were both true ... at least when first used. > > Often I manage to avoid talking at all. If I don't hear a voice > within two seconds of answering the phone, I hang up. My guess > is that many telemarketers use an automatic dialer, which notifies > the next available agent when the victim answers. Have you ever > noticed several seconds of dead air when you pick up the phone - > and how it only seems to happen when a telemarketer calls you? > I use this to keep the connection from even going through. > A legitimate caller will call back; a telemarketer won't. > Yes I listen for the auto dialer pause as well. I sometimes just use the answering machine to filter all calls. Sometimes I answer the phone "Good Evening Star Light Lounge". My friends know my habits and it throws the marketroids. -het -- "Inspect every piece of pseudoscience and you will find a security blanket, a thumb to suck, a skirt to hold. What have we to offer in exchange? Uncertainty! Insecurity!" -Isaac Asimov Name your Poison: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/catastrophes.html H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/ ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 19 Feb 2002 12:26:57 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 59 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 19 Feb 2002 12:29:20 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!lon1-news.nildram.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!jfk3-feed1.news.digex.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!news-in.superfeed.net!enews.sgi.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102223 > Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging > facilities. > Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of > memory and remap the sectors on the fly. jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > That isn't done now!?? Not in consumer-level equipment, or low-end servers. The necessary hardware support does exist in many systems. Most chipsets support ECC, and when ECC memory is used the BIOS will correct single-bit errors. But they generally don't track whether a particular bit (or chip) is having problems. The BIOS in fact hides this information from the operating system. Most people don't buy ECC memory, even if their hardware supports it, because it costs a little more. The remapping isn't necessary at a hardware level. If the software did track ECC errors, it could simply use the normal memory management system (paging) to avoid using a particular physical page. However, the normal way of coping with memory problems is to throw away the bad DIMM and replace it with a new one. This may seem wasteful, but I suspect that in practice it's actually the most reasonable course of action. If a memory chip that formerly had no problems suddenly develops an unreliable bit (not just an isolated soft error), there's a fair likelyhood that it will deteriorate further. I don't have hard figures, but I suspect that more problems are caused by unreliable electrical contacts between the DIMM and socket than with good memory chips going bad. Of course, in cheap systems (which may or may not be inexpensive), the memory may be run out of spec or at the borderline, and all bets are off. One thing that current implementations of ECC in PC chipsets don't do, but should, is to include the address bits in the ECC computation. That way they could detect an address bit failure on readback. Such an error would obviously not be correctable (though a retry might yield the correct location if it was a transient error), but it would be very useful to detect such errors. Without this feature, an addressing error will simply yield bad data, which might cause a crash, or worse, just subtly corrupt your data. Another thing that PCs with ECC generally don't do, but should, is to "scrub" the memory. SECDED (Single Error Correction/Double Error Detection) works well because it presumes that the probability of two single-bit errors hitting the same work of memory is vanishingly small. But if you leave a word in memory unaccessed for a long time, the probability increases. Scrubbing is simply a background process to read all of memory repeatedly, correcting any correctable errors that are found. I've considered writing a Linux task to scrub memory. The downside is that doing it in software will thrash the data cache. I wonder if it would be possible to disable data caching (L1 and L2) for a particular process, forcing all read accesses to go to main memory, without flushing the data cache contents? ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 19 Feb 2002 12:29:22 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 19 Feb 2002 12:31:45 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102224 Neil Franklin writes: > Both parity and ECC delay using data from memory, as one needs to wait > for the confirmation that it is OK. Not necessarily. It is possible in many systems to abort an instruction in the cycle AFTER the read data was accepted by the processor. Thus the ECC calculation can occur while the bus is being used for something else during the next clock cycle. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 22:11:05 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 38 Message-ID: <6u1yfhw51y.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1014153065 563 10.0.3.2 (19 Feb 2002 21:11:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 21:11:05 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102226 Eric Smith writes: > > One thing that current implementations of ECC in PC chipsets don't > do, but should, is to include the address bits in the ECC computation. Interesting idea. Its correct data, but the wrong set. Never heard of that one before. Just shows how the art of ECC is dead these days. > Another thing that PCs with ECC generally don't do, but should, is to > "scrub" the memory. SECDED (Single Error Correction/Double Error > > I've considered writing a Linux task to scrub memory. The downside is > that doing it in software will thrash the data cache. I wonder if it > would be possible to disable data caching (L1 and L2) for a particular > process, forcing all read accesses to go to main memory, without flushing > the data cache contents? At what rate would this scrubber have to run? I would assume quite low, as dual faults do not collect up that fast. So it could run just a small block of memory at each activation, so the cache killing whould not be that spectacular relative to the normal trashing around (cache working set changes). Bigger problem will be, that it has to run in kernel space, not memory managed process virtual space. So this is not a normal process. Rather something like the existing kernal internal VM page freeing system, some sort of clock algorithm. Just accessing every word, not just checking the used/dirty bits, but at a lot slower scanning speed. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 2002 22:13:47 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6uy9hpuqd0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1014153228 563 10.0.3.2 (19 Feb 2002 21:13:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 21:13:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102227 Eric Smith writes: > Neil Franklin writes: > > Both parity and ECC delay using data from memory, as one needs to wait > > for the confirmation that it is OK. > > Not necessarily. It is possible in many systems to abort an instruction > in the cycle AFTER the read data was accepted by the processor. Assuming the processors bus protocol has support for such after the fact cancellation. I doubt Intel has put in circuits for that :-). Interesting stuff one reads here in this ECC discussion. Just reminds how much once existed and then has disappared. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "John Homes" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:06:07 +1300 Organization: EDS (New Zealand) Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C715C62.881362A0@ev1.net> <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcp-134-251-165-075.dhcp.nz.eds.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!24.226.1.12!feed.cgocable.net!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news.eds.co.nz!news.nz.eds.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102230 "Neil Barnes" wrote in message news:a4t4du$2t9hm$2@ID-123172.news.dfncis.de... > > Ah. You don't then get the idiocy of grades: > > 5 inadequate performance > 4 could use improvement, does not always meet target > 3 meets expected performance > 2 often exceeds expected performance > 1 always exceeds expected performance > > where it is necessary to hit a large number of 2s or preferably 1s before a > bonus is even considered? Now combine that with a predetermined grading distribution (5% of staff MUST be given a 5, 20% a 4, 50% a 3, 20% a 2, and 5% a 1). Yes I have seen this, and in a company not usually noted for idiocy. John Homes. ###### Message-ID: <3C72CA5E.A1A15314@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:06:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.177.115 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014156401 12.90.177.115 (Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:06:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:06:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102239 Eric Smith wrote: > ... snip ... > > One thing that current implementations of ECC in PC chipsets don't > do, but should, is to include the address bits in the ECC computation. > That way they could detect an address bit failure on readback. Such an > error would obviously not be correctable (though a retry might yield the > correct location if it was a transient error), but it would be very > useful to detect such errors. Without this feature, an addressing error > will simply yield bad data, which might cause a crash, or worse, just > subtly corrupt your data. Never thought of that. The current 8 syndrome bits in a 64/72 wide memory are obviously enough. The 'subtle corruption' is probably going on all the time in non-ECC systems, due to cosmics etc. However most bit drops are in something that will never be read before being swapped out and considered clean, so just reloaded later. > > Another thing that PCs with ECC generally don't do, but should, is to > "scrub" the memory. SECDED (Single Error Correction/Double Error > Detection) works well because it presumes that the probability of > two single-bit errors hitting the same work of memory is vanishingly > small. But if you leave a word in memory unaccessed for a long time, > the probability increases. Scrubbing is simply a background process > to read all of memory repeatedly, correcting any correctable errors that > are found. What's wrong with the normal 'refresh' operation? It happens every few millisecs without any effort on your part. I don't think you have anything to gain. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:32:53 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <3C724658.336DED36@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYaCWtoB3dYdan1rAhncP8ah4Pv71Oy0BegOHl/humxHa9imXQ8jme8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 22:34:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102235 On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:33 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: >"Arargh!" wrote: >> That takes too loog. Well, nobody ever accused me of being able to spell or type. > >My two loogs are gyring in the mendacious wabes. > >Consider it my contribution to the ecology. As long as they are >dealing with me they are not disturbing others. As I said, when >the mood hits. At other times the response is PLONK, or, if I am >feeling more loquacious, "no, PLONK". > >Another one that I haven't used for some time is the referees >whistle. One simply places it near the mouthpiece and blows >hard. I guess I am becoming more tolerant with age. > >BTW, on-line forms that insist on a phone number are usually >satisfied with (AREA)555-1212. Yes, and if you need a city,st,zip I use one of: Santa Claus, IN, 47579 North Pole, AK, 99705 with a useless street address. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:35:38 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVajnKCTE5KQIUOcDJ2z/F2YR3I4z1ak7BbwLA7SkMDBVO73uwIyy3lk X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Feb 2002 22:36:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102237 On 19 Feb 2002 10:20:02 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >Arargh! writes: >> >> My solution: >> >> As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the >> caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > >That generally works pretty well. I was pretty appalled recently when >Qwest started calling us daily with some stupid offer; after a week of >it I pointed out how many times I'd said no before hanging up, and >they finally got the message. > >There is something especially aggravating about your *phone* *company* >misusing your telephone for telemarketing. I'd much rather they >devote their energy to running DSL out here.... It took me two or three years, and many phone calls to get my LD company to bugger off. But it's been maybe ten years, and no calls. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 19 Feb 02 17:12:47 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <715.815T2361T10325986@sky.bus.com> References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C72F9E7.D5E5C562@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-943.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102245 In article <3C72F9E7.D5E5C562@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net (Charles Richmond) writes: >I saw a cartoon about telemarketing. The telemarketer said: >"Are you eating dinner, or should I call back later???" In a similar vein, but different enough for the obligatory topic drift, is Steve Wright's line: "My friend has an answering machine on his car phone. The message says, 'Hi. I can't come to the phone because I'm home right now, but if you leave a message I'll call you when I'm out.'" -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 02 09:04:43 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <3C7276C1.F7C0FEBD@uab.ericsson.se> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbPQ7hzADsQgwPRK72YSq8Wx7KdAdDVYvf8/VpjVvenM7vq7tpr60yf X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 11:19:38 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-165 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102254 In article <3C7276C1.F7C0FEBD@uab.ericsson.se>, Barry Watson wrote: > > >"Keith R. Williams" wrote: >> >> In article , >> Arargh@Arargh.com says... >> > On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT, CBFalconer >> > wrote: >> >> > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the >> > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. >> >> That's my normal approach (other than not answering the phone at all or >> listening for the void of the preemptive dialer), but one time I >> recognized the company immediately, so I played along. > >Why don't you just lay the receiver down beside the phone and go back to >whatever you were doing. Come back in 15 mins and the telemarketer has >hung up as well. It wastes there time and very little of yours. That's dangerous. A lot of those questions they ask imply a yes if there's no answer...especially the calls that have a computer on the other end. Note that some of these may already have your credit card number and know your usage. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 02 09:07:45 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZTVAgGkoQ1tCqDb7763vCELK+9SoARFkKm+6j5FuPuqsVw8mY6Ir/6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 11:22:39 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-165 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102259 In article , "Ketil Malde" wrote: > >You guys don't have caller ID across the pond? > >Personally, I tend to glance at the number, and if it's secret, I'll >let the answering machine handle it. (Going to automate it as soon as >I can find time to get an ISDN card and vbox up and about) > According to a blurb in comp.risks, those can be faked, too. The only 100% reliable way to not be bothered is to unplug the phone. When somebody wishes to speak with me on the phone, they have to make a telephone appointment. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 02 09:09:55 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbxOg+NdsUwHvAYJkoxsAkOt25o7GvVVtpkcGNG6X28qBYbhKOzPt3Z X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 11:24:50 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-165 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102247 In article <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >Arargh! writes: >> >> My solution: >> >> As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the >> caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > >That generally works pretty well. I was pretty appalled recently when >Qwest started calling us daily with some stupid offer; after a week of >it I pointed out how many times I'd said no before hanging up, and >they finally got the message. > >There is something especially aggravating about your *phone* *company* >misusing your telephone for telemarketing. I'd much rather they >devote their energy to running DSL out here.... I've called my phone company to complain about that. It turned out that they were not doing it. I think those types of sales must be contracted out in the same manner as magazine subscriptions. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 02 09:17:15 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <3C724658.336DED36@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVagxD1135f9wAw7PKDfnBSkUBOUdiWnWCPFV2NVI5eHfdkgYg5iS4VF X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 11:32:10 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-165 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102256 In article , Arargh! wrote: >On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:33 GMT, CBFalconer >wrote: > >>"Arargh!" wrote: > >>> That takes too loog. >Well, nobody ever accused me of being able to spell or type. >> >>My two loogs are gyring in the mendacious wabes. >> >>Consider it my contribution to the ecology. As long as they are >>dealing with me they are not disturbing others. As I said, when >>the mood hits. At other times the response is PLONK, or, if I am >>feeling more loquacious, "no, PLONK". >> >>Another one that I haven't used for some time is the referees >>whistle. One simply places it near the mouthpiece and blows >>hard. I guess I am becoming more tolerant with age. >> >>BTW, on-line forms that insist on a phone number are usually >>satisfied with (AREA)555-1212. > >Yes, and if you need a city,st,zip I use one of: > >Santa Claus, IN, 47579 >North Pole, AK, 99705 > >with a useless street address. But you're screwing yourself if you ever need a credit review. "Corrections" are made based on differing data without your input. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3C72F9E7.D5E5C562@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net 1014160829 12.237.69.87 (Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:20:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:20:29 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:20:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!feeder.qis.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102297 Brian Inglis wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Sounds like they're trying to get even with assholes^Wsavvy > consumers like me saying "not interested" and hanging up as soon > as they say "Globe & Mail" or whatever the charity or product is: > I don't answer during meal times. > I saw a cartoon about telemarketing. The telemarketer said: "Are you eating dinner, or should I call back later???" -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:25:39 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c72ed7d$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.30a/30 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102269 In <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com>, on 02/18/02 at 10:40 PM, CBFalconer said: >There are many many people complaining about hard/software who really >should be complaining about memory. I usually take every opportunity I >find on newsgroups to point out that no machine should ever be bought >without ECC, and the long term sneaky delayed effects of bit dropping. >Usually I get sneered at. Proselitize (sp?) now. >BTW, the most likely noticeable end effect is a BSOD, cleared after a >reboot. Discussing the pros and cons of ECC with a tech support guy at Crucian (Micron), he said something to the effect of "You don't want to use ECC, you'll get Blue Screens". I'm inclined to prefer that (or Trap xx) to massive data or filesystem corruption. -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- Error #33: (A)bort this mess (R)etry last mistake (S)kip to new mess-up. ###### From: jata@jata-mj.net (Julian Thomas) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:32:19 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3c72eea1$2$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u3czy1soq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <6uy9hpuqd0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.30a/30 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102268 In <6uy9hpuqd0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, on 02/19/02 at 10:13 PM, Neil Franklin said: >Interesting stuff one reads here in this ECC discussion. Just reminds how >much once existed and then has disappared. Can anyone say Hamming? -- Julian Thomas: jt . jt-mj @ net http://jt-mj.net remove letter a for email (or switch . and @) In the beautiful Finger Lakes Wine Country of New York State! Boardmember of POSSI.org - Phoenix OS/2 Society, Inc http://www.possi.org -- -- Friends don't let friends use Windows. ###### From: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 20 Feb 2002 02:58:54 GMT Organization: Ye 'Ol Disorganized NNTPCache groupie Lines: 11 Message-ID: <1014173935.20679@elaine.furryape.com> References: <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-525.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) Cache-Post-Path: elaine.furryape.com!unknown@elaine.furryape.com X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b5 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102265 In article , Arargh! wrote: >It took me two or three years, and many phone calls to get my LD >company to bugger off. But it's been maybe ten years, and no calls. I found it quite easy to get the LD companies to bugger off. When they ask you about your call profile, and you say "I think I made a long distance call 3 years ago, perhaps it was 4", they don't stick around. ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:31:45 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3e967uod2n92m22ean5jqufhn8clt720o4@4ax.com> References: <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <1014173935.20679@elaine.furryape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYxaO1AwRQ1hx0SamqcsuHyQGN2u0+8E8OR/yTc7S64TMsmXVmVh5tx X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 04:33:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102288 On 20 Feb 2002 02:58:54 GMT, gorilla@elaine.furryape.com (Alan Barclay) wrote: >In article , >Arargh! wrote: >>It took me two or three years, and many phone calls to get my LD >>company to bugger off. But it's been maybe ten years, and no calls. > >I found it quite easy to get the LD companies to bugger off. > >When they ask you about your call profile, and you say >"I think I made a long distance call 3 years ago, perhaps it was >4", they don't stick around. If the call gets to that point, it's already way too late. I didn't even want the call in the first place. Also, ten years ago there wasn't as much flexibility with LD companies. And the local phone company charged more to not have LD than the cheapest LD available. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:26:37 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <3c72ed7d$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-200-66.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1014182797 19726 213.122.200.66 (20 Feb 2002 05:26:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:26:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102283 Julian Thomas wrote in message news:3c72ed7d$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net... [SNIP] > Discussing the pros and cons of ECC with a tech support guy at Crucian > (Micron), he said something to the effect of "You don't want to use ECC, > you'll get Blue Screens". I've heard that excuse before too. The truth of the matter is, you get blue screens anyways. :) This can't be the same Micro who fab DRAM can it ? The Fools ! Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Ketil Malde" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 20 Feb 2002 09:47:48 +0100 Organization: University of Bergen Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: sefirot.ii.uib.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: toralf.uib.no 1014195044 33611 129.177.16.62 (20 Feb 2002 08:50:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uib.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 08:50:44 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.39.3.168!uninett.no!nntp.uib.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102274 You guys don't have caller ID across the pond? Personally, I tend to glance at the number, and if it's secret, I'll let the answering machine handle it. (Going to automate it as soon as I can find time to get an ISDN card and vbox up and about) -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ###### From: "Ketil Malde" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 20 Feb 2002 13:07:37 +0100 Organization: University of Bergen Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: sefirot.ii.uib.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: toralf.uib.no 1014207033 45355 129.177.16.62 (20 Feb 2002 12:10:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@uib.no NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 12:10:33 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!128.39.3.168!uninett.no!nntp.uib.no!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102275 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > According to a blurb in comp.risks, [Caller ID] can be faked, too. Be that as it may, I have yet to come across a telemarketer that were *not* calling from a secret number. So that only leaves the problem of legitimate callers with secret numbers, which is at least partially solved with them leaving a message. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ###### From: Pete Fenelon Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:54:12 -0000 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: Sender: Pete Fenelon References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <3C7276C1.F7C0FEBD@uab.ericsson.se> User-Agent: tin/1.5.10-20011117 ("Darkcell") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.5-STABLE (i386)) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102281 In alt.folklore.computers jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >>Why don't you just lay the receiver down beside the phone and go back to >>whatever you were doing. Come back in 15 mins and the telemarketer has >>hung up as well. It wastes there time and very little of yours. > > That's dangerous. A lot of those questions they ask imply a yes > if there's no answer...especially the calls that have a computer > on the other end. Note that some of these may already have your > credit card number and know your usage. I did once do this to a salesdroid from an ISP. Went to the loo, came back, made a plate of bacon butties and a cup of tea, consumed same, read the paper, picked up the phone 25 minutes later and he was still there. Oddly enough that ISP is no longer in business.... That was, admittedly, in the days before I had unlisted numbers for both my landline and cellphone. pete -- pete@fenelon.com "Irk the purists, irk the purists, it's a right good laugh." ###### Message-ID: <3C73EE0B.94C26996@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <3c72ed7d$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1014223331 12.237.69.87 (Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:42:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:42:11 GMT Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:42:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsengine.sol.net!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102294 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > Julian Thomas wrote in message > news:3c72ed7d$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net... > [SNIP] > > Discussing the pros and cons of ECC with a tech support guy at Crucian > > (Micron), he said something to the effect of "You don't want to use ECC, > > you'll get Blue Screens". > > I've heard that excuse before too. The truth of the matter is, > you get blue screens anyways. :) > > This can't be the same Micro who fab DRAM can it ? The Fools ! > A man is putting banana peels all over his front lawn. His neighbor asks what is he doing. He says: "I am putting out banana peels to keep the elephants away." Neighbor says: "But there are *no* elephants in 3000 miles of here!!!" Man says: "Yeah. Works pretty well, doesn't it???" Blue screens are caused by the attempted use of *any* Mi$uck Windoze product. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C73E0F2.ACD91081@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <6cSa8.6208$Nf3.373432@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3c703b23$3$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:59:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.252.50.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014227961 158.252.50.8 (Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:59:21 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:59:21 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:59:21 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102250 Chris Hedley wrote: > According to Stephen Fuld : > > Sure. And I have met my share of totally incompetent IBMers. But then, to > > what do you attribute IBM's success versus DEC's failure. I doubt it was > > the competence of the technical people. I am postulating that it was the > > competence of the upper management. > > IBM fired its worst management liabilities and started to recover > shortly afterwards; DEC hired those very same people and its decline > accelarated shortly afterwards (this was in about '94/95) This, of course, brings to mind the joke about the guy who left one company for another, thus raising the average IQ of both organizations. That was said about a VP for whom I once worked. Chris AN GETT$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:06:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 158.252.50.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014228385 158.252.50.8 (Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:06:25 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:06:25 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:06:25 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102249 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > My wife got a call from a Globe & Mail telemarketer the other night. > When she said that she didn't like being bothered by telemarketers > at supper time, the jerk on the other end said something to the > effect of "get used to it", as if this was the Way of the Future > and she should be glad she wasn't being left in the past. Too > bad the asshole hung up before she could ask him why, if he was > so concerned with being up to date, we should subscribe to a > centuries-old medium like newspaper. For years, anytime I am eating or preparing a meal and during most evenings, from say 5:30p to 9p, I just don't answer the phone. There is an answering machine and I can hear the incoming calls if I'm there. Salesman have found that answering machines make few purchases and thus talking to them is a waste of time :-) Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:27:54 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <3c72ed7d$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-194-181.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1014233274 23629 213.122.194.181 (20 Feb 2002 19:27:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:27:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102273 Roland Hutchinson wrote in message news:a50ks6$3oqhp$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de... > On Wednesday 20 February 2002 00:26, Rupert Pigott > wrote: > > > Julian Thomas wrote in message > > news:3c72ed7d$1$wg$mr2ice@news.fltg.net... > > [SNIP] > >> Discussing the pros and cons of ECC with a tech support guy at > >> Crucian (Micron), he said something to the effect of "You don't > >> want to use ECC, you'll get Blue Screens". > > > > I've heard that excuse before too. The truth of the matter is, > > you get blue screens anyways. :) > > > > This can't be the same Micro who fab DRAM can it ? The Fools ! > > Sure it can. They're hardware guys, and they are here demonstrating > the canonical hardware-guy response when confonted with a software > problem: "It must be a hardware problem." > > When your only tool is a hammer, you obviously tooled up in a > hardware shop. I was more thinking along the lines of if they recommended full-blown SEC-DED ECC memory they could sell a lot more DRAM. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u1yfhw51y.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 20 Feb 2002 11:41:11 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 20 Feb 2002 11:43:45 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102278 Eric Smith writes: > One thing that current implementations of ECC in PC chipsets don't > do, but should, is to include the address bits in the ECC computation. Neil Franklin writes: > Interesting idea. Its correct data, but the wrong set. Never heard of > that one before. Just shows how the art of ECC is dead these days. I first saw that in the Intel 43205 Memory Control Unit (MCU). Regarding a memory scrubbing process, Neil writes: > Bigger problem will be, that it has to run in kernel space, not memory > managed process virtual space. So this is not a normal process. Sure, it can be a normal process. It would just mmap() chunks of /dev/kmem. ###### From: "Mike Swaim" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:43:51 -0600 Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users Lines: 33 Sender: swaim@hal-pc.org Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C715C62.881362A0@ev1.net> <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.152.140.10 X-Trace: news.hal-pc.org 1014234231 81387 192.152.140.10 (20 Feb 2002 19:43:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-pc.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:43:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.52.135.42!nntp1.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102257 "John Homes" wrote in message news:a4ub7h$5un$1@hermes.nz.eds.com... > > "Neil Barnes" wrote in message > news:a4t4du$2t9hm$2@ID-123172.news.dfncis.de... > > > > Ah. You don't then get the idiocy of grades: > > > > 5 inadequate performance > > 4 could use improvement, does not always meet target > > 3 meets expected performance > > 2 often exceeds expected performance > > 1 always exceeds expected performance > > where it is necessary to hit a large number of 2s or preferably 1s before > > a bonus is even considered? > > Now combine that with a predetermined grading distribution (5% of staff MUST > be given a 5, 20% a 4, 50% a 3, 20% a 2, and 5% a 1). > Yes I have seen this, and in a company not usually noted for idiocy. Enron did this. Some of the groups in IT refused to go along, since it'd take us months to fill a position with someone we liked. -- Mike Swaim Michael.Swaim@UBSWenergy.com Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for . ###### Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com From: Eric Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <3C72CA5E.A1A15314@yahoo.com> Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. Date: 20 Feb 2002 11:45:07 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NNTP-Posting-Host: ruckus.brouhaha.com X-Trace: 20 Feb 2002 11:47:41 -0800, ruckus.brouhaha.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-la!news-in-la.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!news.kjsl.com!news.spies.com!ruckus.brouhaha.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102282 I wrote: > Another thing that PCs with ECC generally don't do, but should, is to > "scrub" the memory. CBFalconer writes: > What's wrong with the normal 'refresh' operation? It happens > every few millisecs without any effort on your part. I don't think > you have anything to gain. Normal refresh in modern PCs doesn't actually read the data. With old-style DRAM, it typically did RAS-only or CAS-before-RAS refresh cycles. With SDRAM and DDR SDRAM, it does an explicit refresh command. This is done because it is faster and can be completely overlapped with an active transfer. Even in systems where the refresh was done by actually reading the RAM (e.g., screen display in Apple ][, original Macintosh), it didn't read all locations, just enough to guarantee that all rows were refreshed. Certainly it's possible to build a memory controller that will do scrubbing in hardware, but since PCs don't contain such hardware, it may as well be done in software. ###### Message-ID: <3C74067F.79B48F4A@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:26:39 +0100 From: Toon Moene Organization: Moene Computational Physics, Maartensdijk, The Netherlands X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.moene.indiv.nluug.nl X-Trace: 1014236772 news.nl.uu.net 227 195.109.255.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@nl.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!oleane.net!oleane!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed02.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!news.nl.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102307 jchausler wrote: > For years, anytime I am eating or preparing a meal and during most > evenings, from say 5:30p to 9p, I just don't answer the phone. There > is an answering machine I just go out eating between 6 and 8 pm. Never find a telemarketeer on the answering machine when I come home. Expensive, but much better for your metabolism. -- Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG Maartensdijk, The Netherlands Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 02 09:02:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbqGBV83GS3EhFTCrASdY+UKJe8DxxuimVbR1NlYYvGGmAW8rtD0AHs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2002 11:17:21 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-197 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102326 [pare that newsgroup] In article <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net>, jchausler wrote: > > >Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> My wife got a call from a Globe & Mail telemarketer the other night. >> When she said that she didn't like being bothered by telemarketers >> at supper time, the jerk on the other end said something to the >> effect of "get used to it", as if this was the Way of the Future >> and she should be glad she wasn't being left in the past. Too >> bad the asshole hung up before she could ask him why, if he was >> so concerned with being up to date, we should subscribe to a >> centuries-old medium like newspaper. > >For years, anytime I am eating or preparing a meal and during most >evenings, from say 5:30p to 9p, I just don't answer the phone. There >is an answering machine and I can hear the incoming calls if I'm >there. Salesman have found that answering machines make few >purchases and thus talking to them is a waste of time :-) Huh. Then comes the day when the telemarketer will download Win2K+3 to the answering machine which will then answer yes to the BSOD question, "Are you sure?". /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 02 09:53:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C73E0F2.ACD91081@earthlink.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYQG5v529FcKOS2/CgeSwidK/SIyADJ9cnGI6hQrpiASDpVZ5YK7hsm X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2002 12:08:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-197 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102330 In article , Jim Thomas wrote: >>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Hedley writes: > > Chris> According to jchausler : > >> This, of course, brings to mind the joke about the guy who left one > >> company for another, thus raising the average IQ of both organizations. > >> That was said about a VP for whom I once worked. > > Chris> VPs, how fondly I remember them. At about the same time I > Chris> mentioned, around '95, I recall that we were stunned at the almost > Chris> surreal increase in the number of VPs at DEC, especially at a time > Chris> when large chunks of the company were being sold off to make a > Chris> quick buck and swathes of the workforce were chopped away to make a > Chris> quicker one. At the start of a two or three month period we had, I > Chris> forget the exact number but, about 50 VPs, which in itself was > Chris> probably about 45 too many. At the end of the period we had, IIRC, > Chris> over 200. Why any company needs 200 VPs is absolutely beyond me, > Chris> let alone one where the workforce was shrinking at an alarming > Chris> rate. > > Chris> .... > >Hmm, when I left in 1975, one of my complaints was that the middle >management count was getting too high. :-( When you left in 1975, the middle management were still talking to each other. There were only about five layers of management at that time...wasn't there? /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:37:30 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C73E0F2.ACD91081@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1014249605 nnrp-08:10898 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102328 According to jchausler : > This, of course, brings to mind the joke about the guy who left one > company for another, thus raising the average IQ of both organizations. > That was said about a VP for whom I once worked. VPs, how fondly I remember them. At about the same time I mentioned, around '95, I recall that we were stunned at the almost surreal increase in the number of VPs at DEC, especially at a time when large chunks of the company were being sold off to make a quick buck and swathes of the workforce were chopped away to make a quicker one. At the start of a two or three month period we had, I forget the exact number but, about 50 VPs, which in itself was probably about 45 too many. At the end of the period we had, IIRC, over 200. Why any company needs 200 VPs is absolutely beyond me, let alone one where the workforce was shrinking at an alarming rate. As has been observed on many occasions here, DEC went bust because the majority of the people in the organisation seemed to be PHBs; most of the useful workers had either left or been made redundant (kudos to the ones who actually had the bravery to stay *and* managed to keep their jobs, though, whether it was by luck or judgement) A company only needs to use "matrix management" because it's either appointed so many managers that it needs to find something for them all to do or because it's sacked too many of its workers; either way, I know that any company using this strategy is doomed, or at least soon will be, and will avoid them like the plague either as a potential employee and as a customer. Hopefully that other infamous "company killer," the ISO QA scheme, will also be recognised for the liability that it is (is this the first serious "corporate virus?") Chris. ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:41:37 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <3C724658.336DED36@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbM/NlZx3zZpvziqHIUd1AO4AK+x69A7Q33SwrEIWeAwTPrzhO9Lm+a X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Feb 2002 23:43:20 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102346 On Wed, 20 Feb 02 09:17:15 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >In article , > Arargh! wrote: >>Yes, and if you need a city,st,zip I use one of: >> >>Santa Claus, IN, 47579 >>North Pole, AK, 99705 >> >>with a useless street address. > >But you're screwing yourself if you ever need a credit review. >"Corrections" are made based on differing data without your >input. Huh? A couple of points: I never use my correct name and address for much of anything on the web or internet. I also never or almost never use a credit card that way. In any case, my current credit situation is so FUBAR, that most any "correction" can only be for the good. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Joshua Hesse <00093182@bigred.unl.edu> Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 20 Feb 2002 23:46:37 GMT Organization: People Eating Tasty Animals, UNL chapter Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bigred.unl.edu X-HTML:
X-URL: http://straylight.unl.edu/concussion/ User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (OSF1/V5.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102327 In alt.folklore.computers jchausler wrote: :For years, anytime I am eating or preparing a meal and during most :evenings, from say 5:30p to 9p, I just don't answer the phone. There :is an answering machine and I can hear the incoming calls if I'm :there. Salesman have found that answering machines make few :purchases and thus talking to them is a waste of time :-) Then there's the pre-recorded sales pitch that got recorded on my answering machine a couple of times. (for a 900 psychic line) Machines talking to machines. (I think this was postulated in _MAD_ magazine once as the logical progression of telemarketers vs. answering machines. Yes, I know it's illegal.) -Josh -- "I have also mastered pomposity, even if I do say so myself." -Kryten UNL Anime Club: http://www.unl.edu/otaku "I'd be proud to vote for tax increases... You bet I would." -Dick Gephardt ###### From: Jim Thomas Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 20 Feb 2002 15:30:30 -1000 Organization: Canada France Hawai`i Telescope Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C73E0F2.ACD91081@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu X-Trace: news.hawaii.edu 1014255030 29550 128.171.80.135 (21 Feb 2002 01:30:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@hawaii.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2002 01:30:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.hawaii.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102341 >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Hedley writes: Chris> According to jchausler : >> This, of course, brings to mind the joke about the guy who left one >> company for another, thus raising the average IQ of both organizations. >> That was said about a VP for whom I once worked. Chris> VPs, how fondly I remember them. At about the same time I Chris> mentioned, around '95, I recall that we were stunned at the almost Chris> surreal increase in the number of VPs at DEC, especially at a time Chris> when large chunks of the company were being sold off to make a Chris> quick buck and swathes of the workforce were chopped away to make a Chris> quicker one. At the start of a two or three month period we had, I Chris> forget the exact number but, about 50 VPs, which in itself was Chris> probably about 45 too many. At the end of the period we had, IIRC, Chris> over 200. Why any company needs 200 VPs is absolutely beyond me, Chris> let alone one where the workforce was shrinking at an alarming Chris> rate. Chris> .... Hmm, when I left in 1975, one of my complaints was that the middle management count was getting too high. :-( Nothead ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <6nZb8.8254$BR3.441568@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C73E0F2.ACD91081@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 20 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <05Zc8.131233$Re2.10757166@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 20:38:52 CST X-Trace: sv3-uNNLHlvRGlRgrwtkVegg/JJ8MB/aAVEeYMYkbnkcRww+orpmrh79TcWoEMpJOqXcWGz93/+zAgAgXRM!ARzAvvNpqdBeTS2Cg25Wb9Uu+LeElyxDQIENTDoxlIxlCSyslkHqtXGj1ddl/ceZuzCSw5mH2kqH!7xjg4wu4YjoPoIAv9eiUHEnd X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:38:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102313 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:qvb15a.t5d.ln@teabag.cbhnet... ... > A company > only needs to use "matrix management" because it's either appointed > so many managers that it needs to find something for them all to do or > because it's sacked too many of its workers That statement is inconsistent with my understanding of how matrix management (at least as practiced by DEC in the late '70s/early '80s) worked. In particular, it had no particular relationship to the ratio of managers to workers (though it may have allowed that ratio to be smaller). - bill ###### From: Alan Greig Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:47:42 +0000 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-130.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102342 On 21 Feb 2002 08:02:18 GMT, nailed_barnacle@NOSPAMhotmail.com (Neil Barnes) wrote: >My company has an awful lot of direct dial in numbers, but only a fraction >of that number of lines on the hunting group. By default, any outgoing call >has the CID supressed because it isn't on the same line as the return call. > >Though I never worked out why it was so difficult for the exchanges to >negotiate a real CID and pass that through the system. It isn't unless you have an ancient or misconfigured exchange.Even for an ancient system it is possible for the telephone company to set the ID on outgoing calls to the primary dial in number for the switchboard. -- Alan ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:26:23 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <3C73E0F2.ACD91081@earthlink.net> <05Zc8.131233$Re2.10757166@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1014287402 nnrp-10:12649 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102323 According to Bill Todd : > That statement is inconsistent with my understanding of how matrix > management (at least as practiced by DEC in the late '70s/early '80s) > worked. In particular, it had no particular relationship to the ratio of > managers to workers (though it may have allowed that ratio to be smaller). It probably isn't how it's supposed to work; but I suspect that DEC's method might be quite common where there's an unjustifiably large number of managers, which is to, erm, modify the matrix style so that each worker has several lines of reporting, so it starts to end up like an inversion of the normal hierarchy. Chris. ###### From: John T Maguire Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Organization: Mousam River Software Reply-To: wizard@port-gifts.com Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:34:08 CST X-Trace: sv3-OgtCLfPWWvYbSQlLv8MwSdzM4HDISJiPKlxIZsVOpTHU1t0uB7BuUSG8HPmeEC+3qzu9iF/JciRFh/M!x58Fvv4yA1zdVFRXTtHdgEqDkN68R+4GDW19MpqPoT0ULckZLzPdJC3JBQNMGxIlJVtsNHgKPtou!HVMB X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:34:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102348 On 20 Feb 2002 23:46:37 GMT, Joshua Hesse <00093182@bigred.unl.edu> wrote: >In alt.folklore.computers jchausler wrote: > > :For years, anytime I am eating or preparing a meal and during most > :evenings, from say 5:30p to 9p, I just don't answer the phone. There > :is an answering machine and I can hear the incoming calls if I'm > :there. Salesman have found that answering machines make few > :purchases and thus talking to them is a waste of time :-) > >Then there's the pre-recorded sales pitch that got recorded on my >answering machine a couple of times. (for a 900 psychic line) > >Machines talking to machines. (I think this was postulated in >_MAD_ magazine once as the logical progression of telemarketers >vs. answering machines. Yes, I know it's illegal.) > Verizon has a new service, *66 - if the number you are trying to get is busy it will continue trying it for 1/2 hour, and if it becomes un-busy it calls you back with a 'special ring' and then connects you. The first time I tried it I had to go out within the 1/2 hour, and I ended up with my answering machine talking to the other person's answering machine - that is to say the special ring triggered my machine, and his answering machine picked up... John T Maguire, Kennebunkport, Maine The Maine Webcam Network; http://www.maine-webcams.net Kennebunkport ScreenSavers; http://www.port-gifts.com ###### From: "Mike Swaim" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:58:53 -0600 Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users Lines: 32 Sender: swaim@hal-pc.org Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.152.140.10 X-Trace: news.hal-pc.org 1014299936 5563 192.152.140.10 (21 Feb 2002 13:58:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-pc.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:58:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!nntp1.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102324 "Joshua Hesse" <00093182@bigred.unl.edu> wrote in message news:a51cgt$ll$1@unlnews.unl.edu... > Then there's the pre-recorded sales pitch that got recorded on my > answering machine a couple of times. (for a 900 psychic line) > > Machines talking to machines. (I think this was postulated in > _MAD_ magazine once as the logical progression of telemarketers > vs. answering machines. Yes, I know it's illegal.) There was a story many years ago (I believe in comp.dcom.telecom where the author's answering machine filled out an automated telephone survey. It went something like "How many children do you have?" *BEEP* (Answering machine) *BEEP* "Thank you. You have 6423 children." "How many are girls?" *BEEP* (Answering machine) *BEEP* "Thank you. You have 5399 girls." "How many are boys?" *BEEP* (Answering machine) *BEEP* . . . -- Mike Swaim Michael.Swaim@UBSWenergy.com Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for . ###### From: "Mike Swaim" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:41:10 -0600 Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users Lines: 94 Sender: swaim@hal-pc.org Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.152.140.10 X-Trace: news.hal-pc.org 1014302471 6770 192.152.140.10 (21 Feb 2002 14:41:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@hal-pc.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:41:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!204.52.135.42!nntp1.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!news.hal-pc.org!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102322 "Mike Swaim" wrote in message news:a52uf0$5dr$1@news.hal-pc.org... Found the article. (Thanks Google!) From: Todd Inch Subject: Re: Answering Machines Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom View: Complete Thread (6 articles) | Original Format Date: 1990-03-23 10:17:36 PST This is from rec.humor. I thought it might be worth cross-posting here. >In article <9533@wpi.wpi.edu> XXXXX(Insomnia Inc.) writes: >from:marrs_w@apollo.com >This was off of the sub-genius mailing list A particularly insidious kind of sales call now appearing in several cities is one which is initiated by computer, and contains recorded questions ... that requires answers in simple digits or "yes" and "no". A voice recognition circuit then processes your answers and asks further questions based on your former answers. The sales pitch is usually disguised as a survey of some kind. The despicable thing about these things is that they won't leave you alone. If you hang up, they will just call back again.> One day my wife got a call from one of these computer systems, and her answering machine answered. The conversation that followed was hilarious, as it consisted of two machines talking to each other without having the slightest idea about what each other was saying. The conversation wound up in an endless loop, as follows: [PHONE] *RING* [ANSWERING MACHINE] "...At the tone, please give your message. BEEEEEP." [PHONE] "Hello. This is [company_name], and we are taking a telephone survey ... when I ask a question, wait for the beep, then please speak plainly. I will repeat your answer back to you, and verify it. First, what is your phone number? BEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." (The answering machine, upon hearing the beep, got confused and thought it was a play-back command, and generated another beep in response.) [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [PHONE] "Thank you! Your phone number was 443-28347-47756-377764-22222. Is that correct? BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [PHONE] "Thank you! Do you have any children? BEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [PHONE] Thank you! What is the age of your first child? BEEEEEEEEEEP." [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [PHONE] "Your first child is 1,222 years old. Is that correct? BEEEEEP." [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [--------------- BEGIN ENDLESS LOOP ----------------] [PHONE] "Thank you! Do you have any more children? BEEEEEEP." [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [PHONE] "Thank you! What is this child's age? BEEEP." [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [PHONE] "This child is 4,233 years old. Is that correct? BEEEEP." [ANSWERING MACHINE] "BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP." [---------------------END LOOP -----------------------] My wife, upon noticing that the answering machine had been going for over half an hour, turned up the volume to find out what was going on. When she discovered this endless loop (by now she had over 200 children, all over 1,000 years old), she switched off the answering machine. The computer never called again. ###### Message-ID: <3C751F1E.A4A0F9CA@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:29:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.236 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014308994 12.90.173.236 (Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:29:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:29:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102312 John T Maguire wrote: > > On 20 Feb 2002 23:46:37 GMT, Joshua Hesse <00093182@bigred.unl.edu> > wrote: > ... snip ... > > > >Machines talking to machines. (I think this was postulated in > >_MAD_ magazine once as the logical progression of telemarketers > >vs. answering machines. Yes, I know it's illegal.) > > > Verizon has a new service, *66 - if the number you are trying to get > is busy it will continue trying it for 1/2 hour, and if it becomes > un-busy it calls you back with a 'special ring' and then connects you. > The first time I tried it I had to go out within the 1/2 hour, and I > ended up with my answering machine talking to the other person's > answering machine - that is to say the special ring triggered my > machine, and his answering machine picked up... And Verizon charged you a fee nicely proportioned to their costs, at about 100:1. I used to have a very useful phone which, when redial was pressed, would hang up, wait for dial tone, and then redial. Somebody did something with it. Now I can't even tickle the hook switch, because the exchange thinks it is a flash, and comes back up offering that imbecilic service for an exorbitant price. I don't even get to hear the soothing tones of a continous busy signal. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 02 10:20:07 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZfu+wqt8jyYdNdbgzvohn5dQ+770Y898iiYclRwCKxelYjVQz5sFrU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2002 12:35:23 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102399 In article , name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) wrote: >In article <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de>, Bernd Paysan wrote: > >> Stephen Fuld schrieb: >> > After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, >> > so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically >> > important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. >> >> My personal opinion is that marketing people can't stand success driven >> by other people. It's something we as engineers also know, we call it >> NiH-syndrome. Simple example: If Alpha did sell well, we all would >> attribute that to it's technical excellence. However, Alpha doesn't sell >> well, so we attribute it to marketing incompetence (the famous stealth >> marketing by DEC). On the other hand, Intel sells well, and it even sold >> well when it was quite technically inferior (not only marginally, like >> it is now). We attribute this to a marketing success. >> >> The marketing people at DEC had no chance to get acknowledge for their >> jobs, if they did their jobs right. So they decided to do their jobs >> wrong. By doing so, they at least got the blame, so their importance was >> acknowledged. >> >> There are other simple business reasons for technically good products >> falling back into a niche, while technically inferiour products flood >> the world. One reason is that you can sell a technically superiour >> product at a higher margin. It sells because the customers that are >> already buying it have to buy it. Inferiour products however sell >> (first) at cut-throat margins, and seek for new niches every day >> (because only mass production can cover the development effort). > >Oh for crying out loud. >Why is everyone here accepting the fundamental premise, >that Alpha was superior? Because it was the only toy in that game. Once the processor became a standard and people got used to it, they rapidly "forgot" about others. It's simply a human thing to do. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 02 10:28:30 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYx+MMzi8SnHYmYA2849qal1+eI6HqZJSWODWi7EZVOq//2wl6qIp10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2002 12:43:46 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!tethys.csu.net!canoe.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102397 [pare that newsgroup] In article , nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote: >In article , >Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >> >>name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes: >>> for their computing needs no matter how fast it was, just like the bulk of >>> the population do not consider riding a horse to work no matter how cheap >>> or environmentally sound or whatever it may be---a horse is simply so far >>> divorced from their needs that the fact that it is also a "mode of >>> transporation" is completely irrelevant, >> >>ot warning :-) >> >>i seem to remember some article form the late 1800s about severe >>environmental pollution in NYC caused by all the horses. i got the >>impression that on a per unit basis (horses vis-a-vis automobile) that >>if you had a couple hundred thousand horses up & down the streets of >>some large city ... that it would be significantly more environmental >>pollution than equivalent number of automobiles. > >It was a severe problem in London, certainly. > >But the claims that they cause more pollution than cars is an urban >myth, or possibly propaganda. Have you ever had to shovel shit? The problem with these comparisons is that the count of horses isn't equivalent to the count of cars. > .. While horses do produce more in terms >of raw mass, almost all of it is easily recycled. No, it not easily recycled. You're forgetting about all the piss. In addition, it's very expensive in terms of today's labor criteria. > .. If you use a more >realistic measure of the mass of pollution multiplied by its lifetime, >then they produce an infinitesimal proportion of that produced by >cars. Mass? Are you using the word as it is used in E^2 = m^2c^4 + p^2c^2? I don't believe that claim. I have noticed that some of these studies don't consider horse manure pollution because the writers assume it can be "recycled". They forget that it can't be recycled within the city the manure was produced. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 14:53:08 -0800 Organization: None Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: handma2.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1014332044 8690 17.202.32.152 (21 Feb 2002 22:54:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Feb 2002 22:54:04 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!chcgil2-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!handma2.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102439 In article <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de>, Bernd Paysan wrote: > Stephen Fuld schrieb: > > After all, we all can point out technically superior products that failed, > > so it is apparent that these other aspects of business are critically > > important, perhaps more so than the technical ones. > > My personal opinion is that marketing people can't stand success driven > by other people. It's something we as engineers also know, we call it > NiH-syndrome. Simple example: If Alpha did sell well, we all would > attribute that to it's technical excellence. However, Alpha doesn't sell > well, so we attribute it to marketing incompetence (the famous stealth > marketing by DEC). On the other hand, Intel sells well, and it even sold > well when it was quite technically inferior (not only marginally, like > it is now). We attribute this to a marketing success. > > The marketing people at DEC had no chance to get acknowledge for their > jobs, if they did their jobs right. So they decided to do their jobs > wrong. By doing so, they at least got the blame, so their importance was > acknowledged. > > There are other simple business reasons for technically good products > falling back into a niche, while technically inferiour products flood > the world. One reason is that you can sell a technically superiour > product at a higher margin. It sells because the customers that are > already buying it have to buy it. Inferiour products however sell > (first) at cut-throat margins, and seek for new niches every day > (because only mass production can cover the development effort). Oh for crying out loud. Why is everyone here accepting the fundamental premise, that Alpha was superior? Yes, it was faster. That does not mean that it was superior for the bulk of the market. This is no different from Apple apologists crying that it was marketing or whatever that prevented Apple from gaining massive market share in the early 90's. The fact is, it was lots of thing---and price, cloning and compatability were a large part of the issue. Likewise, the bulk of the population were never going to consider Alpha for their computing needs no matter how fast it was, just like the bulk of the population do not consider riding a horse to work no matter how cheap or environmentally sound or whatever it may be---a horse is simply so far divorced from their needs that the fact that it is also a "mode of transporation" is completely irrelevant, One argue usefully, perhaps, about why Alpha failed (if it did) against Sun or SGI or maybe even RS/6000, but to argue about why it failed against Intel is simply moronic. So if the argument IS against Sun and SGI, the very first question is --- did it fail? Were the returns, sales, costs etc against these rivals vastly out of line? Maybe the problem is simply that that space is not a very profitable space to be in, being attacked from both below by better PCs and above by an aggressive IBM evangelizing cheaper mainframes. Maynard ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 19 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:18:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.76.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014333492 209.244.76.89 (Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:18:12 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:18:12 PST X-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:18:11 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102404 name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes: > for their computing needs no matter how fast it was, just like the bulk of > the population do not consider riding a horse to work no matter how cheap > or environmentally sound or whatever it may be---a horse is simply so far > divorced from their needs that the fact that it is also a "mode of > transporation" is completely irrelevant, ot warning :-) i seem to remember some article form the late 1800s about severe environmental pollution in NYC caused by all the horses. i got the impression that on a per unit basis (horses vis-a-vis automobile) that if you had a couple hundred thousand horses up & down the streets of some large city ... that it would be significantly more environmental pollution than equivalent number of automobiles. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:33:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.244.76.89 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014334400 209.244.76.89 (Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:33:20 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:33:20 PST X-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:33:19 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102403 name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes: > One argue usefully, perhaps, about why Alpha failed (if it did) against > Sun or SGI or maybe even RS/6000, but to argue about why it failed against > Intel is simply moronic. > So if the argument IS against Sun and SGI, the very first question is --- > did it fail? Were the returns, sales, costs etc against these rivals > vastly out of line? Maybe the problem is simply that that space is not a > very profitable space to be in, being attacked from both below by better > PCs and above by an aggressive IBM evangelizing cheaper mainframes. i believe the profit margins in the mini-computer market had historically been much better than either the workstation or personal computing market segment. For one thing, the mini-computer market had tended to be proprietary which tended to bring better ROI (assuming that you could get market share). the mini-computer market got severely squeezed from lots of sides, workstations/PCs from below, some mainframes from above, and whole issue of proprietrary/non-proprietary. the issue in the mini-computer market would have been both component hardware cost structure as well as organizational cost structures (somewhat the line about organizations expand to fill the available ROI). as/400 in the mini-computer market seems to done a bit of adoption using powerpc chips to address various hardware component cost structure and presumably doing various organization and system things needed to deal with changes in the ROI-profile in a much more non-proprietary and price competitive market. It seemed like alpha was directed at vax solution (in somewhat similar way to as/400 with powerpc) as well as workstation and pc solutions. as/400 was significantly aided in its ability to pull off the powerpc hardware transition because it had maintained a significantly higher level application environment abstraction (than vax). This is somewhat legacy of the s38/as400 approximating FS (future system) architecture (all the folklore about after the company killed off FS, it continued to survive in rochester). recent FS related posting http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#1 Gerstner moves over as planned -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:01:02 -0800 Organization: None Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: handma2.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1014336113 9140 17.202.32.152 (22 Feb 2002 00:01:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2002 00:01:53 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!handma2.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102437 In article , Arargh! wrote: > On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 02:25:10 GMT, CBFalconer > wrote: > > > > > >I have a ritual for them, as the mood hits: > > > >me: Have you a pencil and paper handy? > >it: yes > >me: well, write this down > >it: what > >me: my telephone no. > >it: what is it? > >me: the one you dialed > >it: .... > > .... > >me: now add this in big letters at the top > >it: what > >me: DO NOT CALL LIST. Underline it. > > That takes too loog. > > My solution: > > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > > Also, having an Unpublished/Unlisted number helps. A better solution is to listen until the sales/begging is established then say "oops, please hold", put the phone to one side, and continue with your life. This wastes a few minutes of their time until they assume you're not coming back and give up, and of course wasting their time and making the game uneconomical is what it's all about. Maynard ###### From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 22 Feb 2002 00:05:42 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: virgo.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!nmm1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102417 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > >name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes: >> for their computing needs no matter how fast it was, just like the bulk of >> the population do not consider riding a horse to work no matter how cheap >> or environmentally sound or whatever it may be---a horse is simply so far >> divorced from their needs that the fact that it is also a "mode of >> transporation" is completely irrelevant, > >ot warning :-) > >i seem to remember some article form the late 1800s about severe >environmental pollution in NYC caused by all the horses. i got the >impression that on a per unit basis (horses vis-a-vis automobile) that >if you had a couple hundred thousand horses up & down the streets of >some large city ... that it would be significantly more environmental >pollution than equivalent number of automobiles. It was a severe problem in London, certainly. But the claims that they cause more pollution than cars is an urban myth, or possibly propaganda. While horses do produce more in terms of raw mass, almost all of it is easily recycled. If you use a more realistic measure of the mass of pollution multiplied by its lifetime, then they produce an infinitesimal proportion of that produced by cars. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: nmm1@cam.ac.uk Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 22 Feb 2002 02:26:04 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014344764 28426 134.117.136.30 (22 Feb 2002 02:26:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2002 02:26:04 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-peer-east1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102423 Nick Maclaren (nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk) writes: [The garlic attrib got lost here B-] >>i seem to remember some article form the late 1800s about severe >>environmental pollution in NYC caused by all the horses. i got the >>impression that on a per unit basis (horses vis-a-vis automobile) that >>if you had a couple hundred thousand horses up & down the streets of >>some large city ... that it would be significantly more environmental >>pollution than equivalent number of automobiles. > > It was a severe problem in London, certainly. And, apparently here in Ottawa too. Recall that it was a long time before streets went from mud strips and go MacAdamised (sp?). > > But the claims that they cause more pollution than cars is an urban > myth, or possibly propaganda. While horses do produce more in terms > of raw mass, almost all of it is easily recycled. If you use a more > realistic measure of the mass of pollution multiplied by its lifetime, > then they produce an infinitesimal proportion of that produced by > cars. During the warm season, (and I don't mean this anomolous Feb. 21 when we hit a near record high of + {yes, plus} 7 C in Ottawa), I often kick myself for not packing a plastic (oops, sorry - environmentally friendly) bag and shovel in the back of my 2,000kg gasoline powered pickup truck whilst driving through our Experimental Farm. You wouldn't believe the amount of horse shit that could be scooped up from the horse wagon rides in that small area. It would go long way to rejuvenating the soil in my yard. It is much harder to gather the waste that comes from the tail pipe of the truck, but then again, it doesn't stick to one's shoes. The safety factor of operating horse drawn vehicles weighs heavily in my mind - these beasts weigh much more than their human operators and have an advance brain: think of the damage they can do when they go beserk. (Like a parity error in a 100 Gb memory.) The thrust of my point is that motor vehicles are naturally safer as far as environment and humans are concerned. Proof? There are so many more of us since the end of the horse and buggy days. ###### From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:53:04 -0800 Organization: None Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <3C729F71.9030106@srv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: handma2.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1014346439 9740 17.202.32.152 (22 Feb 2002 02:53:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2002 02:53:59 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!131.119.28.146!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!handma2.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102438 In article <3C729F71.9030106@srv.net>, Kevin Handy wrote: > Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > > > Often I manage to avoid talking at all. If I don't hear a voice > > within two seconds of answering the phone, I hang up. My guess > > is that many telemarketers use an automatic dialer, which notifies > > the next available agent when the victim answers. Have you ever > > noticed several seconds of dead air when you pick up the phone - > > and how it only seems to happen when a telemarketer calls you? > > I use this to keep the connection from even going through. > > A legitimate caller will call back; a telemarketer won't. > > > What do you mean "a telemarketer won't"? In my experience > they will call back, then call back, then call back, ... > even if you ask them not to call again. Not if you tell them that you want to be put on a do not call list, that federal law allows you to sue them if they call again in the next ten years, then ask ask them for their personal name, official company name, and company phone number and ask them to repeat that both parties agree that they, Joe Bloggs of xyz corp at 8:28pm on xyz date agreed to put you on their don't call list. Maynard ###### From: tjm+spam@spam.codegen.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:59:21 -0800 Organization: CodeGen, Inc. Lines: 32 Sender: tjm+spam@spam.codegen.com Message-ID: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p-485.newsdawg.com Originator: tjm+spam@spam.codegen.com (Thomas J. Merritt) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!xmission!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102405 In article , |Nick Maclaren wrote: |>i seem to remember some article form the late 1800s about severe |>environmental pollution in NYC caused by all the horses. i got the |>impression that on a per unit basis (horses vis-a-vis automobile) that |>if you had a couple hundred thousand horses up & down the streets of |>some large city ... that it would be significantly more environmental |>pollution than equivalent number of automobiles. | |It was a severe problem in London, certainly. | |But the claims that they cause more pollution than cars is an urban |myth, or possibly propaganda. While horses do produce more in terms |of raw mass, almost all of it is easily recycled. If you use a more |realistic measure of the mass of pollution multiplied by its lifetime, |then they produce an infinitesimal proportion of that produced by |cars. Keep in mind that the 'raw mass' get trampled by other traffic and aresolized. The negative health effects were rather problematic at the turn of the prior century. A modern well maintained internal gasoline engine emits pretty small amounts of NOx, some unburned fuel, and large amounts of CO and CO2. The CO converts to CO2 over resonably short period of time. I'm not familiar enough with equine emmisions to make a true comparison. But my guess is that there is a significant CO2 emmision, but probably less than a car on a per mile basis. Be interesting to see a true scientific comparison of the two. As a society were not going back to horses anytime soon. Once the x86 to Hammer conversion is complete, we won't be going back to x86 either (or Alpha for that matter). TJ Merritt ###### Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:59:17 -0800 From: Erik Magnuson X-X-Sender: erik@erik Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <3C65D2F4.151FD258@bestweb.net> <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.120.67.130 X-Trace: 1014357559 nntp.cts.com 30402 216.120.67.130 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!enews.sgi.com!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!usc.edu!newspeer.cts.com!galanthis.cts.com!127.0.0.1.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102408 On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > >name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes: >> for their computing needs no matter how fast it was, just like the bulk of >> the population do not consider riding a horse to work no matter how cheap >> or environmentally sound or whatever it may be---a horse is simply so far >> divorced from their needs that the fact that it is also a "mode of >> transporation" is completely irrelevant, > >ot warning :-) > >i seem to remember some article form the late 1800s about severe >environmental pollution in NYC caused by all the horses. i got the >impression that on a per unit basis (horses vis-a-vis automobile) that >if you had a couple hundred thousand horses up & down the streets of >some large city ... that it would be significantly more environmental >pollution than equivalent number of automobiles. > >-- >Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ > There's a pretty good discussion about the problems with horse waste in William D. Middleton's "The Time of the Trolley" (originally a Kalmbach book, reprinted by Golden West Books (?)). There was a figure of 10.5 pounds of manure per horse per day. Erik Magnuson ###### From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 22 Feb 2002 08:53:46 GMT Organization: University of Cambridge, England Lines: 61 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: draco.cus.cam.ac.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!skynet.be!skynet.be!peer.news.eu-x.com!server2.netnews.ja.net!pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk!nmm1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102433 In article <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com>, wrote: >In article , >|Nick Maclaren wrote: >|>i seem to remember some article form the late 1800s about severe >|>environmental pollution in NYC caused by all the horses. i got the >|>impression that on a per unit basis (horses vis-a-vis automobile) that >|>if you had a couple hundred thousand horses up & down the streets of >|>some large city ... that it would be significantly more environmental >|>pollution than equivalent number of automobiles. >| >|It was a severe problem in London, certainly. >| >|But the claims that they cause more pollution than cars is an urban >|myth, or possibly propaganda. While horses do produce more in terms >|of raw mass, almost all of it is easily recycled. If you use a more >|realistic measure of the mass of pollution multiplied by its lifetime, >|then they produce an infinitesimal proportion of that produced by >|cars. > >Keep in mind that the 'raw mass' get trampled by other traffic and >aresolized. The negative health effects were rather problematic at >the turn of the prior century. A modern well maintained internal >gasoline engine emits pretty small amounts of NOx, some unburned >fuel, and large amounts of CO and CO2. The CO converts to CO2 over >resonably short period of time. I'm not familiar enough with >equine emmisions to make a true comparison. But my guess is that >there is a significant CO2 emmision, but probably less than a car >on a per mile basis. Be interesting to see a true scientific >comparison of the two. As a society were not going back to horses >anytime soon. Once the x86 to Hammer conversion is complete, we >won't be going back to x86 either (or Alpha for that matter). I am sorry to continue this off-group thread, but you have been taken in by the propaganda of the car lobby. What you say is correct, which is why I didn't refer to the HARM caused by the two - that is very difficult to measure. But less than HALF the pollution caused by cars is caused by them burning fuel. The pollution caused by their manufacture and disposal is about the same as that caused by their use during their life, and then there is that caused by their infrastructure requirements (which is much higher than the equivalent for horses). There is some vaguely on-group relevance. When people are talking about the cost of conversions, most of them omit the cost of NOT converting - we saw that with the IBM/370 series and MVT. Unless you shake up an environment at intervals, bugs will accumulate invisibly. When you are then forced to change environment, or even if your data changes enough, your whole system can then fall apart. To much stability is harmful. As is too much instability. Moderation in all things, even moderation :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: nmm1@cam.ac.uk Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 ###### From: stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 22 Feb 2002 10:28:32 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: rohan.sdsu.edu X-Trace: gondor.sdsu.edu 1014373712 14533 130.191.3.100 (22 Feb 2002 10:28:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@newshub.sdsu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Feb 2002 10:28:32 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000123 ("Polish") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newshub.sdsu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102387 In alt.folklore.computers Neil Franklin wrote: > "Charlie Gibbs" writes: > >> Often I manage to avoid talking at all. If I don't hear a voice >> within two seconds of answering the phone, I hang up. > > And lose. You have already taken the damage (disturbance) and with > immediate hangup are saving them both punishment and are not getting > off their lists. I get the telemarketers this way, but they still haven't exceeded the the average wrong-number to my household. (But frequently, the wrong numbers are from English-as-an-N-language-where-N->>-1.) "Hello." "Hello." 'ello? Is Marsha here?' "I dunno. You're there." 'I mean, is Marsha there.' "No. And nobody with that name lives here." 'Are you sure?' "Yes." 'Oh. Okay.' > So you should develop techiques to waste their time, or develop > techniques to get off their lists, or both. If it's a recording ("PRESS 1 OR STAY ON THE LINE TO HEAR ABOUT A NEW TIME-SHARE-AND-DRUG-PRESCRIPTION-PROGRAM...") I'll just put the phone down and wait for it to start beeping. (I so the same thing if a telemarketer won't let me get a word in edgewise.) About the only exception I make is when it's the local (consolidated) newspaper. Then I make a point of telling them that I do not trust them to get the most basic facts correct, and that it's a crime they waste so much paper. Once it was a girl with a very sweet voice, and apparently having a very bad day. I could hear her "boss" shouting at her -- "If you don't make this sale, you're FIRED." I spent a pleasant ten minutes discussing how her boss was a jerk, how the weather in Texas was, how sick she was feeling that day, and how for some jobs you shouldn't feel the least compelled to show up for if *anything* else comes your way. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The problem with tigers is that they have no | stremler@rohan.sdsu.edu setting between `OFF' and `HIGH'." | -Calvin (_Calvin & Hobbes_) | Stewart Stremler ###### Message-ID: <3C76709A.1D814EE6@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:38:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.175.144 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014395906 12.90.175.144 (Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:38:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:38:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102364 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article , > > Have you ever had to shovel shit? The problem with these comparisons > is that the count of horses isn't equivalent to the count of cars. This is an art well preserved by Salesmen and Politicians. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 22 Feb 2002 18:28:08 GMT Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-201-73.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1014402488 news.dial.pipex.com 8513 62.190.201.73 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.hanau.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102383 On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:59:21 -0800, tjm+spam@spam.codegen.com wrote: > I'm not familiar enough with >equine emmisions to make a true comparison. But my guess is that >there is a significant CO2 emmision, but probably less than a car >on a per mile basis. Be interesting to see a true scientific >comparison of the two. The important thing is that equine CO2 emissions simply return to the atmosphere the carbon that was recently locked into the plants the horse ate. Cars*, on the other hand, are emitting CO2 using the carbon from plants that lived millions of years ago, thus increasing the total CO2 in _todays_ atmosphere. * And planes, trains, ships, power stations, etc. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### Message-ID: <3C768DA5.6702A958@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:40:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014403255 168.191.124.70 (Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:40:55 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:40:55 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:40:54 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102385 Joshua Hesse wrote: > In alt.folklore.computers jchausler wrote: > > :For years, anytime I am eating or preparing a meal and during most > :evenings, from say 5:30p to 9p, I just don't answer the phone. There > :is an answering machine and I can hear the incoming calls if I'm > :there. Salesman have found that answering machines make few > :purchases and thus talking to them is a waste of time :-) > > Then there's the pre-recorded sales pitch that got recorded on my > answering machine a couple of times. (for a 900 psychic line) Yes I've gotten this type of thing several times. Since I haven't given any of my credit card numbers to my answering machine, it has yet to successfully buy anything..............(but I think its tried) > Machines talking to machines. (I think this was postulated in > _MAD_ magazine once as the logical progression of telemarketers > vs. answering machines. Yes, I know it's illegal.) Theres an old cartoon of a classroom. The first panel shows the professor lecturing to the students, the next panel shows just a tape recorder lecturing to the students, the third panel show the tape recorder lecturing to a number of tape recorders. The thing that most irritates me about all this is that the number of calls I get where the phone only rings one or two times or that when I pick up, (usually after two rings) there is no one there. I've been lead to believe that the auto calling systems used by telemarketers will call several lines at once and the dump all but the first one which answers. It should be illegal................... Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### Message-ID: <3C76A409.DDB2A612@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> <3C768DA5.6702A958@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.174.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014408721 12.90.174.111 (Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102365 jchausler wrote: > ... snip ... > > The thing that most irritates me about all this is that the number > of calls I get where the phone only rings one or two times or that > when I pick up, (usually after two rings) there is no one there. > I've been lead to believe that the auto calling systems used by > telemarketers will call several lines at once and the dump all but > the first one which answers. It should be illegal................ I believe it is. So is failure to clearly price tag items in the grocery store (at least in CT), or to fail to have sale items in stock. IMHO the cure for the latter two is to empower the citizenry to issue citations on the spot, possibly requiring multiple signatories, which would result in considerable state income from fines and reduce aggravation. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### Message-ID: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.174.111 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014408723 12.90.174.111 (Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102367 Stan Barr wrote: > > tjm+spam@spam.codegen.com wrote: > > > I'm not familiar enough with > >equine emmisions to make a true comparison. But my guess is that > >there is a significant CO2 emmision, but probably less than a car > >on a per mile basis. Be interesting to see a true scientific > >comparison of the two. > > The important thing is that equine CO2 emissions simply return to the > atmosphere the carbon that was recently locked into the plants the horse > ate. Cars*, on the other hand, are emitting CO2 using the carbon from > plants that lived millions of years ago, thus increasing the total CO2 > in _todays_ atmosphere. You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:49:52 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-193-171.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1014410992 2003 213.122.193.171 (22 Feb 2002 20:49:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:49:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102441 CBFalconer wrote in message news:3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com... > You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions Didn't anyone teach you that it was polite to light your farts ? All you need are a sturdy pair of jeans and a cheap disposable lighter. I highly recommend that you don't attempt it with shorts or thin material. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Brett Dixon Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:13:23 -0500 Organization: Unseen University Technical Support Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> <3C768DA5.6702A958@earthlink.net> <3C76A409.DDB2A612@yahoo.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.1 (PPC) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!balance Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102455 In article <3C76A409.DDB2A612@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: > jchausler wrote: > > > ... snip ... > > > > The thing that most irritates me about all this is that the number > > of calls I get where the phone only rings one or two times or that > > when I pick up, (usually after two rings) there is no one there. > > I've been lead to believe that the auto calling systems used by > > telemarketers will call several lines at once and the dump all but > > the first one which answers. It should be illegal................ > > I believe it is. So is failure to clearly price tag items in the > grocery store (at least in CT), or to fail to have sale items in > stock. IMHO the cure for the latter two is to empower the > citizenry to issue citations on the spot, possibly requiring > multiple signatories, which would result in considerable state > income from fines and reduce aggravation. The bad news is predictive dialing is till quite common and often done. (I was off work today anf have gotten three so far!) I (grudgingly) maintain an NT-based system that does both inbound (call center type thingies) and outbound (various kinds). The only thing that keeps me sane is that my employer is actually pretty good about only calling customers, and our products are aimed at businesses, so it's not too bad. Because we (pretend to) like our customers, it's only set to dial one caller for each agent, but some systems wills tart ringing anywhere from 3-10 people everytime an agent is available! ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:20:09 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1014417006 nnrp-12:12888 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.icl.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102388 According to Rupert Pigott : > All you need are a sturdy pair of jeans and a cheap > disposable lighter. I highly recommend that you don't > attempt it with shorts or thin material. Hmm. Some schoolfriends used to be compulsive fart-lighters - you could instantly tell from the scorch-marks around their jeans. Of course they couldn't show off their prowess at school because we had to wear a uniform, so they found other outlets for their vulgarity such as showing off their collection of toilet flushes. Made a change from the usual breaktime activities such as the games of "hackers" (nothing to do with computing, this vaguely involved a ball with a large fight following it around the yard) and chucking half-bricks at live firearms cartridges. Chris. ###### Message-ID: <3C76E0E9.8CDD94EC@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:34:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.172.86 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014424476 12.90.172.86 (Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:34:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:34:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102370 Rupert Pigott wrote: > > CBFalconer wrote in message > news:3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com... > > You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions > > Didn't anyone teach you that it was polite to light > your farts ? > > All you need are a sturdy pair of jeans and a cheap > disposable lighter. I highly recommend that you don't > attempt it with shorts or thin material. Well, I didn't want to get too explicit. Images of jet propelled horse and buggy - oops, flameout. Could be useful - I have ridden in a cart behind a flatulent horse. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:40:14 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1014432477 6347 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102445 stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) writes: >On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:59:21 -0800, tjm+spam@spam.codegen.com > wrote: >> I'm not familiar enough with >>equine emmisions to make a true comparison. But my guess is that >>there is a significant CO2 emmision, but probably less than a car >>on a per mile basis. Be interesting to see a true scientific >>comparison of the two. >The important thing is that equine CO2 emissions simply return to >the atmosphere the carbon that was recently locked into the plants >the horse ate. Cars*, on the other hand, are emitting CO2 using >the carbon from plants that lived millions of years ago, thus >increasing the total CO2 in _todays_ atmosphere. The emissions of cars can be lower; much lower. The carbon cycle for cars can be short-circuited by "bio-diesel"; typically rapeseed (canola) is processed into a suitable fuel for burning in a number of modern diesel cars. Emissions of cars also don't tend to attract flies, etc. I remember a conversation I had with an old man in 1987. He was then pretty close to 100 years old and mentioned how much cleaner and quieter the streets had gotten in the (German) village since motor cars became common (1950s). It was common practice to shovel the manure up to the side of the road; frequently against the walls of the residents' houses. I'm not sure if the subject matter is now O/T for afc . :-) -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:48:21 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <1bvgcufzrc.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102431 In article , wrote: > There are times when I feel that I'm the only one who insists > on quality work, period. Then I come here to feel better :-). That's good. There are a lot of out here who care, we just rarely get a chance to demonstrate it. It's just not what you are rewarded for in many places, and in fact you can get in trouble for it. What a wierd industry... -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:50:12 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: <41075a.3sg.ln@escape.shannon.net> References: <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102410 In article <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de>, Bernd Paysan wrote: > > 5 inadequate performance > > 4 could use improvement, does not always meet target > > 3 meets expected performance > > 2 often exceeds expected performance > > 1 always exceeds expected performance > > > > where it is necessary to hit a large number of 2s or preferably 1s before a > > bonus is even considered? This is usually coupled with kpis like > > > > o completes timesheets on time - expected performance 100% > > You forgot the catch-22. If you exceed expected performance, you are a > thread to your boss. Since the bonus *also* depends on your boss > speaking for you in a meeting of bosses, you won't get any, either > ("Who's that Dilbert guy?"). Don't forget, those timesheets must be in by Thursday evening or Friday morning, 3 days before you actually know your total hours for the week. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:02:42 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102420 In article <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > And lose. You have already taken the damage (disturbance) and with > immediate hangup are saving them both punishment and are not getting > off their lists. Yep... > So you should develop techiques to waste their time, or develop > techniques to get off their lists, or both. Oh the joy. Some of my friends and I had this game to see who could keep a telemarketer on for the longest time. I would ask them to wait while I got paper, and proceed to apologize and go get other items. I kept one waiting with the phone on the counter for 12 minutes one time. In the end I asked her if it would annoy her if I had been lying to her all this time, like they did when the said they would not call again. Completely blew the droid's mind. > As you have already picked up the reciever, the call has gone through > - to you. I think you can buy devices for the phone line that can detect a lot of those automated systems. The ultimate insult to me last year was a telemarketer that wasn't even a human. The entire process was a computer with voice recognition. I listened long enough to figure out what it was since it was a new one for me. That's got to be the ultimate low. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:20:46 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 52 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102421 In article <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > Arargh! writes: > > > > My solution: > > > > As soon as I determine that it a sales or begging call I tell the > > caller: "Not Interested" and hang up. > > That generally works pretty well. I was pretty appalled recently when > Qwest started calling us daily with some stupid offer; after a week of > it I pointed out how many times I'd said no before hanging up, and > they finally got the message. Here's what I've done in the last 4 years to cut down on phone SPAM: * put my computer on the line * I never answer the phone even when I'm not dialed in Pretty simple. I keep up with all my bills, and make it a point to call anyone who actually needs to hear me when appropriate. I have _zero_ need to be contacted on my phone. Anyone who truly needs to call me, has my cell phone number, and I can blacklist with it when I no longer need to hear from a particular person. I just gave up one day after about 4 calls in a single day, and I think I have answered my phone about 3 times in the last 4 years. A couple of times I have been spammed on my cell phone, but that's illegal here. I asked them for everything: their name, supervisor, company, etc. Then I informed them this was a cell phone and I was going to immediately notify the FTC, telco, law enforcement, etc. The next thing I did after hanging up, was do exactly what I threatened. It's annoying, but if you will actually call, you often find that the various enforcement people like hearing from you, because they can't do much when no one complains. I think people should start asking for a regulation to eliminate unsolicited phone calls. I have written a couple, and while it obviously hasn't changed anything, I think it would if everyone would do more than just get mad about phone spam, and write to their representative. Of course, I expect that in time our cell phones will be spammed, legal or not, to the point where one of their current benefits will be gone. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:31:05 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!itgate.net!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102419 In article , wrote: > >IBM hard drives have had those smarts for decades -- they > >realized that they needed those smarts if they wanted to be able > >to use the same drives in their higher end systems. > > > >Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging > >facilities. > >Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of > >memory and remap the sectors on the fly. > > > That isn't done now!?? Yes and no: some systems to, others don't. Most PC motherboards even are capable of noting which chips are having trouble. The problem is that PC BIOS are largely junk and don't use the ability. As far as drives go, most drives have been automatically remapping bad sectors for years now. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:37:30 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!cyclone.bc.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102429 In article <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: > There are many many people complaining about hard/software who > really should be complaining about memory. I usually take every > opportunity I find on newsgroups to point out that no machine > should ever be bought without ECC, and the long term sneaky > delayed effects of bit dropping. Usually I get sneered at. > Proselitize (sp?) now. > > BTW, the most likely noticeable end effect is a BSOD, cleared > after a reboot. I had a Windows machine that died so much I couldn't use it. I put ECC DRAM in the system and it stopped crashing. Now, if ECC can help Windows... :) -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:50:43 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102426 In article , Bernd Felsche wrote: > The emissions of cars can be lower; much lower. The carbon cycle for > cars can be short-circuited by "bio-diesel"; typically rapeseed > (canola) is processed into a suitable fuel for burning in a number > of modern diesel cars. The biggest problem with cars is their programmed obsolescence keeps us buying new ones too often. They have been burning fairly lean, especially considering how nasty gasoline is, for some time. Of course, our cars should have been burning water, alcohol, etc already. This would have the added benefit of not being dependent on oil producing nations. > Emissions of cars also don't tend to attract flies, etc. Reminds me of my uncle talking about Turkey in the 60s. He was in the air force, and he said that coming in to land in a major city you were met with a cloud of flies to thick they had to make instrument landings, and it could even bring a plane down. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: Don Quixote Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Reply-To: donq+afc@eclipse.net Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:27:59 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.207.250.101 X-Complaints-To: news@netcarrier.com X-Trace: news.netcarrier.net 1014442893 207.207.250.101 (Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:41:33 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:41:33 EST Organization: NetCarrier Internet Services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.netcarrier.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102449 Bernd Felsche might have said: >I remember a conversation I had with an old man in 1987. He was then >pretty close to 100 years old and mentioned how much cleaner and >quieter the streets had gotten in the (German) village since motor >cars became common (1950s). It was common practice to shovel the >manure up to the side of the road; frequently against the walls of >the residents' houses. > >I'm not sure if the subject matter is now O/T for afc . :-) Well, there was this horse who could count... ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 23 Feb 2002 06:02:40 GMT Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-203-149.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1014444160 news.dial.pipex.com 230 62.190.203.149 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed03.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed03.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102380 On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: > >You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions > There was an item on tv the other day about a group of farmers who are generating electricity and heating commercially from it (well bovine anyway...) ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:25:31 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 49 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1014452744 6353 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102446 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: >In article , >Bernd Felsche wrote: >> The emissions of cars can be lower; much lower. The carbon cycle for >> cars can be short-circuited by "bio-diesel"; typically rapeseed >> (canola) is processed into a suitable fuel for burning in a number >> of modern diesel cars. >The biggest problem with cars is their programmed obsolescence >keeps us buying new ones too often. They have been burning fairly >lean, especially considering how nasty gasoline is, for some time. It's largely the consumer's option as to when they wish to get a new(er) car. (A decision they ought to make before they buy the car they'll eventually replace.) Of course, manufacturers seem to have some ridiculously-short parts availability (e.g. 7 years on parts for a car that's warranteed for 10 years!). I've not yet owned a car that was less than 10 years old when I sold it. My current vehicle is 11 years old (bought new) and going strong. Parts availability will become in issue in a few years; some are already unobtainable. But I think it'll be 20 years old before it becomes no longer viable to operate. Newer cars have even shorter life cycles; increasing integration and tendency to make for maunfacture and not for maintenance is a major concern. After all; if you look at the total energy from dust to dust, some car models with short life cycles probably require more energy to manufacture and recycle than they consume during nominal operation. >Of course, our cars should have been burning water, alcohol, etc >already. This would have the added benefit of not being dependent >on oil producing nations. Brazil's been burning alcohol for ages. >> Emissions of cars also don't tend to attract flies, etc. >Reminds me of my uncle talking about Turkey in the 60s. He was in the >air force, and he said that coming in to land in a major city you were >met with a cloud of flies to thick they had to make instrument landings, >and it could even bring a plane down. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: Bruce Hoult Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 43 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:12:05 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.79.84.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1014459123 203.79.84.26 (Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:12:03 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:12:03 NZDT Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news02.tsnz.net!bruce Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102453 In article , Bernd Felsche wrote: > >The biggest problem with cars is their programmed obsolescence > >keeps us buying new ones too often. They have been burning fairly > >lean, especially considering how nasty gasoline is, for some time. > > It's largely the consumer's option as to when they wish to get a > new(er) car. (A decision they ought to make before they buy the car > they'll eventually replace.) Of course, manufacturers seem to have > some ridiculously-short parts availability (e.g. 7 years on parts > for a car that's warranteed for 10 years!). Some makes do seem to have fairly short lifetimes -- in terms of the amount of time for which the model is sold, the length of time for which parts are available, and the quality. But some makes do rather well on all three counts. > I've not yet owned a car that was less than 10 years old when I sold it. Neither have I, but then I've only ever sold one car (last year) and I would not have sold it for many years yet except that I was moving overseas. That was a 1991 Toyota Corona which I was still totally happy with. Mostly in the past I've had motorcycles. At first I had Hondas, which I sold when they got to 30,000 km or so. Then I moved to BMWs, which I *bought* with 30,000 km. I kept my 1986 K100RT until it had done 160,000 km and was nine years old, and sold it only because I thought the radical new model (1995 R1100RT) was so much better that I *had* to have it. I have no current intention to ever sell the R1100 as it's still a great joy every time I ride it. I suspect I'll proabably keep my current car, a 1995 Subaru Legacy wagon, for a long time too. It's a joy to drive, well made, well supported, and has good parts commonality with newer models. One good reason to keep it for as long as possible is that it seems inevitable that its replacement will have to have airbags, which I detest. -- Bruce ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 23 Feb 2002 10:33:37 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014460417 26421 134.117.136.30 (23 Feb 2002 10:33:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 10:33:37 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102416 Bruce Hoult (bruce@hoult.org) writes: > ... > One good reason to keep it for as long as possible is that it seems > inevitable that its replacement will have to have airbags, which I > detest. You wear glasses, right? The thought of having my lenses blown into my eye sockets is so horrific that a) I'll keep my 86 Dodge pickup for as long as there are parts for it B-) , b) I'd never buy a vehicle with airbags if possible, c) disable the buggers if not, d) detonate then remove them. I _always_ wear a seatbelt, so no thank you to the explosive in the steering wheel. ###### From: zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 23 Feb 2002 11:18:18 GMT Organization: Red Hat Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: devserv.devel.redhat.com X-Trace: cronkite.cygnus.com 1014463098 21741 172.16.58.1 (23 Feb 2002 11:18:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: postmaster@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 11:18:18 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.1 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!enews.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102394 > One good reason to keep it for as long as possible is that it seems > inevitable that its replacement will have to have airbags, which I > detest. > > -- Bruce Check this out: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/airbags/ Now you must pay for them when you buy the car, then can pay to have them off (permanently). Tee hee. -- Pete ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 23 Feb 2002 11:37:53 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014464273 1018 134.117.136.30 (23 Feb 2002 11:37:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 11:37:53 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102418 Pete Zaitcev (zaitcev@yahoo.com) writes: > > Now you must pay for them when you buy the car, then can pay to > have them off (permanently). Tee hee. Plan B: have the vehicle roll into a tree (or equivalent) at about 10 kph ( = 6 mph). Remove bladder and debris. One should have the engine running, to activate all that nifty computer crap modern cars have. PS Children have been killed by airbags exploding at this low speed. WTF were the dopes who mandated this crap thinking? ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 02 10:48:33 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <3C6822D0.B5A7193@gmx.de> <3C76709A.1D814EE6@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYsFbxuTlq24BTi5XXzVjNmS1g9HU/bBkjtBZm+KENXxtCUg3ObbJfP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 13:03:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-141 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102496 In article <3C76709A.1D814EE6@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article , >> >> Have you ever had to shovel shit? The problem with these comparisons >> is that the count of horses isn't equivalent to the count of cars. > >This is an art well preserved by Salesmen and Politicians. > ROTFL. The real stuff can be distributed over the garden. That stuff you mention is merely the equivalent of piss down the leg (gives you a nice warm feeling). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 02 10:51:03 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> <3C76E0E9.8CDD94EC@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZiBqaJq0h209pdHMu6KlEwnkIb0wVQ6jo2h/tMt9u4h2kU1WLzFrPO X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 13:06:27 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-141 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102484 In article <3C76E0E9.8CDD94EC@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >Rupert Pigott wrote: >> >> CBFalconer wrote in message >> news:3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com... >> > You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions >> >> Didn't anyone teach you that it was polite to light >> your farts ? >> >> All you need are a sturdy pair of jeans and a cheap >> disposable lighter. I highly recommend that you don't >> attempt it with shorts or thin material. > >Well, I didn't want to get too explicit. Images of jet propelled >horse and buggy - oops, flameout. Could be useful - I have ridden >in a cart behind a flatulent horse. > Yea. They're awful. I'd rather smell a cow's fart that didn't have diarrhea(sp?). /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 02 10:52:09 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbPS0fbFVTmD+J0wJAvn89Yg1r26ckz9kWpJJBYAYZzWPckG23Kmwf9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 13:07:33 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-141 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102486 In article , stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: >On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: >> >>You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions >> > >There was an item on tv the other day about a group of farmers who are >generating electricity and heating commercially from it (well bovine >anyway...) ;-) > One of the old ways of insulating an unheated house in the winter was to pile shit around the outside base. It generated enough heat for survival. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 02 10:55:16 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZYOq7tq6GlkvnrYJiKJcPmm6BFcL8jYHZv3j0SUS1Dr/xE3cErLdkw X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 13:10:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-141 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102493 In article , zaitcev@yahoo.com (Pete Zaitcev) wrote: >> One good reason to keep it for as long as possible is that it seems >> inevitable that its replacement will have to have airbags, which I >> detest. >> >> -- Bruce > >Check this out: > http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/airbags/ > >Now you must pay for them when you buy the car, then can pay to >have them off (permanently). Tee hee. I tried to get mine disconnected. It is almost impossible to do so. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 02 11:05:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVauM2av+UlzuFGcSOJt0HG6/42PSO8Ku7fJWR7bEeKs/JI7uD4o0nuw X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 13:21:22 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-141 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102483 In article , shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: >In article , wrote: > >> >IBM hard drives have had those smarts for decades -- they >> >realized that they needed those smarts if they wanted to be able >> >to use the same drives in their higher end systems. >> > >> >Maybe sometime soon, we'll get ECC memory with logging >> >facilities. >> >Then we just need the repair utilities to lock out pages of >> >memory and remap the sectors on the fly. >> > >> That isn't done now!?? > >Yes and no: some systems to, others don't. Most PC motherboards even >are capable of noting which chips are having trouble. The problem >is that PC BIOS are largely junk and don't use the ability. The PDP-10 OSes had this (annoying*) product called SYSERR. It's duty was to write little notes onto the disk for Field Service to read so they could plan PMs and CMs. Supposedly, the goal was to be able to clear up potential problems during a PM so that a CM didn't have to be scheduled. > >As far as drives go, most drives have been automatically remapping bad >sectors for years now. TOPS-10 (IOW, TW) maintained a file on each dispack called BADBLK.SYS[1,4]. Guess what that file contained? *This product was annoying because it was a PITA to package. This was due to the fact that it was written in BLISS-10. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 02 10:29:59 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbVw2uKSq9B5wVUiC0rd+o6+/KTzwNSwOEelKJxfTxWXzaqlf6taDZ0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2002 12:45:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-189 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102499 In article , "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:a5850i$3t7$5@bob.news.rcn.net... > >[SNIP] > >> TOPS-10 (IOW, TW) maintained a file on each dispack >> called BADBLK.SYS[1,4]. Guess what that file contained? > >I wonder if that's where the UNIX bad144 utility comes >from : > >bad144(8) >bad144 - read/write DEC standard 144 bad sector information > >Never seen it used. I only tripped over it because I was >looking for something which would tell me which sectors >were bad on a disk. :) Every system had to have a method to mark bad blocks. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 02 10:33:04 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYzTnmDJpR0pwLjrN8NZm5MLO5FZxIxu1fjzrLfm+lvR7HbOiSQlPyv X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2002 12:48:42 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-189 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102501 In article , shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: >In article , >Stan Barr wrote: >> On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: >> > >> >You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions >> > >> >> There was an item on tv the other day about a group of farmers who are >> generating electricity and heating commercially from it (well bovine >> anyway...) ;-) > >I think the University of Georgia is now burning chicken fat to generate >electricity. It was on CNN the other night, and evidently they can >use almost any "kitchen grease" from homeowners, restaurants, etc. >It has about 95% the power of fossil fuels, but burns very clean. > >I wonder if PETA is aware of this new idea... :) It's not a new idea. My folks tell me about saving all kinds of fat and taking it to the recycle center during WWII. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:10:48 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 16 Message-ID: <20020223091048.050d144e.steveo@eircom.net> References: <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2888.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014469070 59010 194.134.219.81 (23 Feb 2002 12:57:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:57:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102522 On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:02:42 -0500 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: CSH> The ultimate insult to me last year was a telemarketer that wasn't even CSH> a human. The entire process was a computer with voice recognition. CSH> I listened long enough to figure out what it was since it was a new one CSH> for me. Oh shit! There *is* a market for machines that can pass a limited Turing test. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:17:15 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 14 Message-ID: <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2888.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014469070 59010 194.134.219.81 (23 Feb 2002 12:57:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:57:50 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102524 On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:37:30 -0500 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: CSH> I had a Windows machine that died so much I couldn't use it. CSH> CSH> I put ECC DRAM in the system and it stopped crashing. Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 09:28:35 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 19 Message-ID: <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2888.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014469071 59010 194.134.219.81 (23 Feb 2002 12:57:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:57:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news-x2.support.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102526 On 22 Feb 2002 18:28:08 GMT stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: SB> The important thing is that equine CO2 emissions simply return to the SB> atmosphere the carbon that was recently locked into the plants the horse SB> ate. Cars*, on the other hand, are emitting CO2 using the carbon from SB> plants that lived millions of years ago, thus increasing the total CO2 SB> in _todays_ atmosphere. It sounds good, but carbon atoms are indistinguishable it makes no difference where the carbon comes from all that matters is how much is turned into CO2. For every atom of fossil carbon that is burnt an atom of recently trapped carbon stays trapped. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3C77948A.B8484907@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:14:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.151 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014470089 12.90.173.151 (Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:14:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:14:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeed.cs.wisc.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102562 "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote: > > Bruce Hoult (bruce@hoult.org) writes: > > > ... > > One good reason to keep it for as long as possible is that it seems > > inevitable that its replacement will have to have airbags, which I > > detest. > > You wear glasses, right? The thought of having my lenses blown into > my eye sockets is so horrific that a) I'll keep my 86 Dodge pickup > for as long as there are parts for it B-) , b) I'd never buy a > vehicle with airbags if possible, c) disable the buggers if not, > d) detonate then remove them. > > I _always_ wear a seatbelt, so no thank you to the explosive in the > steering wheel. I don't so much object to airbags (apart from the expense), but I do object to the disappearance of the horn button. One has to punch away at various areas (with highly variable degrees of success) to emit raucous sounds at the sleeper in front or the blind/deaf pedestrian jaywalker. An obvious solution, to me, is to bring back horn rings. Some car I once had used a push on the turn signal stalk, forget which. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### Message-ID: <3C779C87.1E15FEF0@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.174.166 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014472191 12.90.174.166 (Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102467 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:37:30 -0500 > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: > > CSH> I had a Windows machine that died so much I couldn't use it. > CSH> > CSH> I put ECC DRAM in the system and it stopped crashing. > > Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) Not necessarily. That would have cured an intermittent open on one bit line such as a cold soldered joint, for example. Well, masked at least. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:13:33 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20020223161333.67335745.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> <3C779C87.1E15FEF0@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1258.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014480584 43016 194.134.212.239 (23 Feb 2002 16:09:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:09:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102515 On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:51 GMT CBFalconer wrote: C> C> > Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) C> C> Not necessarily. That would have cured an intermittent open on C> one bit line such as a cold soldered joint, for example. Well, C> masked at least. Good point, but I'm not sure I'd want such a problem masked. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:08:06 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-195-243.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: knossos.btinternet.com 1014491286 7066 213.122.195.243 (23 Feb 2002 19:08:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:08:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102539 wrote in message news:a5850i$3t7$5@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP] > TOPS-10 (IOW, TW) maintained a file on each dispack > called BADBLK.SYS[1,4]. Guess what that file contained? I wonder if that's where the UNIX bad144 utility comes from : bad144(8) bad144 - read/write DEC standard 144 bad sector information Never seen it used. I only tripped over it because I was looking for something which would tell me which sectors were bad on a disk. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 39 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:26:38 CST X-Trace: sv3-pz4/88kV45TMM4wCBdPYYD8rEAmxslrRnpNtPNgg2kPyxSv3eRAwPNzNQ6Uf9OQRV3ie5HL4ywpDPUQ!M32JBiAH5qJKABBAW+iX5mL3f0ybnyFq1Aw4lG8BnYQIeVmDiGWoqmIWkIny2YzZVJD4iXYIzrtt!TBpZZOGKJKkmOY22b07NG545 X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:26:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102472 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net... > On 22 Feb 2002 18:28:08 GMT > stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) wrote: > > SB> The important thing is that equine CO2 emissions simply return to the > SB> atmosphere the carbon that was recently locked into the plants the horse > SB> ate. Cars*, on the other hand, are emitting CO2 using the carbon from > SB> plants that lived millions of years ago, thus increasing the total CO2 > SB> in _todays_ atmosphere. > > It sounds good, but carbon atoms are indistinguishable it makes no > difference where the carbon comes from all that matters is how much is > turned into CO2. For every atom of fossil carbon that is burnt an atom of > recently trapped carbon stays trapped. I'm afraid you don't under the ecosystem well enough. The problem with your assertion is that recently-trapped carbon *doesn't* stay trapped: if it isn't burned, it eventually decomposes and releases the same CO2 anyway - so CO2 released from burning fossil fuels instead is a net CO2 gain. There are certainly variations in how efficiently one recycles renewable CO2. At one extreme, if one burns only deadwood there's virtually no net elevation of CO2 levels, since it would have been released soon by decomposition anyway. At the other, if one clear-cuts rather than thins out trees that would soon become (or cause others to become) deadwood, one releases CO2 that would have taken considerably longer to have been released in the natural course of events (while removing a lot of vegetation that would have helped recycle said CO2), and hence elevates CO2 levels - though this elevation is a temporary event (given that the clear-cuts are eventually repopulated) rather than the continual escalation that occurs with continued burning of fossil fuels. - bill ###### Message-ID: <3C780B34.DB0078EF@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> <3C779C87.1E15FEF0@yahoo.com> <20020223161333.67335745.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:08:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.176.244 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014502094 12.90.176.244 (Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:08:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:08:14 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102465 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:51 GMT > CBFalconer wrote: > > C> > C> > Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) > C> > C> Not necessarily. That would have cured an intermittent open on > C> one bit line such as a cold soldered joint, for example. Well, > C> masked at least. > > Good point, but I'm not sure I'd want such a problem masked. If it is recording irreplaceable data you would, along with a report of the incipient fault. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:18:48 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: <8jp95a.f59.ln@escape.shannon.net> References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102510 In article <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:37:30 -0500 > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: > > CSH> I had a Windows machine that died so much I couldn't use it. > CSH> > CSH> I put ECC DRAM in the system and it stopped crashing. > > Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) That was at least partially a joke about Windows... But in any case, I have read before that the failure rates for PC memory are very, very high. Not necessarily in terms of a bit being bad, but errors occuring during a read or a burst write, which must be retried or detected by hardware. What I have read suggests that ECC helps this situation by correcting some of those errors. I don't see how, but the memory in question tested fine in another system with a reportedly better memory system. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:20:47 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 23 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub1.nntpserver.com!peer1-sjc1.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102513 In article , Stan Barr wrote: > On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: > > > >You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions > > > > There was an item on tv the other day about a group of farmers who are > generating electricity and heating commercially from it (well bovine > anyway...) ;-) I think the University of Georgia is now burning chicken fat to generate electricity. It was on CNN the other night, and evidently they can use almost any "kitchen grease" from homeowners, restaurants, etc. It has about 95% the power of fossil fuels, but burns very clean. I wonder if PETA is aware of this new idea... :) -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:46:15 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 69 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102511 In article , Bernd Felsche wrote: > It's largely the consumer's option as to when they wish to get a > new(er) car. No, it isn't. Oh sure, you can decide to not get a new one, but a lot of factors will conspire against you: * they won't last very long in many cases * you cannot get parts for them, sometimes even under 5 years later * maintenance can increase dramatically for those which do survive and have parts available * you wreck one, and find out that buying a used one increases the other three problems My father has a 1991 Ford Explorer. It's one of the ones that seems to last very well, and is pretty solid. But you can't get some of the most simple parts for it any more. He has had to make the last few parts that broke on it in his shop by hand because Ford doesn't make them any more. Volkwagen USA is on a merciless crusade to eliminate VW Beetle parts everywhere, and is even taking people to court who use the old chrome VW logo, or even the word Beetle or Volkswagen. Merchants that have been supporting the VW Beetle since the 70s are finding themselves in court for everything from displaying a logo to producing engines that will fit in a Beetle. Car companies are starting to hate anyone who keeps an old one running, and seem to be getting more nasty about it each year. > Newer cars have even shorter life cycles; increasing integration and > tendency to make for maunfacture and not for maintenance is a major > concern. After all; if you look at the total energy from dust to > dust, some car models with short life cycles probably require more > energy to manufacture and recycle than they consume during nominal > operation. It's nearly impossible to repair even things like bumpers any more. The other day someone I used to work with wrecked and the damage is mostly to the front bumper. The insurance company totalled the car and even two local repair shops said they'd be unlikely to get it back together, even though the damage is relatively minor. A unibody is very hard to fix once it has been damaged, and I have seen insurance companies total a car that just lost a wheel. My own car has electrical problems: cluster light fuses blow. The local Ford dealership cannot fix it. The dash was taken off in the past by a dealer and it was never put back on correctly. Two different local shops have tried to fix it and say they can't. It's the reason for the electrical problem: vibration has caused a short somewhere. I don't have the tools to fix it myself, or I'd do it, but I don't want to get my dash in pieces only to find I'm not able to rebuld it. One Ford dealership finally said they would try, but they want $450 to "try" to fix it. Yeah, right... I can't imagine how people will restore old cars in 20 years, but maybe things will change. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: Bruce Hoult Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.0 (PPC) Message-ID: Lines: 36 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:52:33 +1300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.79.84.98 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tsnz.net X-Trace: news02.tsnz.net 1014529953 203.79.84.98 (Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:52:33 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:52:33 NZDT Organization: TelstraClear Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!news02.tsnz.net!bruce Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102555 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: > Bruce Hoult writes: > > Mostly in the past I've had motorcycles. At first I had Hondas, which > > I > > sold when they got to 30,000 km or so. Then I moved to BMWs, which I > > *bought* with 30,000 km. I kept my 1986 K100RT until it had done > > 160,000 km and was nine years old, and sold it only because I thought > > the radical new model (1995 R1100RT) was so much better that I *had* to > > have it. I have no current intention to ever sell the R1100 as it's > > still a great joy every time I ride it. > > You got rid of your Honda's at 30,000km (what's that 14K miles (too > lazy to look it up myself)). 20,000 miles. And they were starting to get rattly and things were falling off them. They were only little Hondas, mind you ... XL350 then XR250 then CBX400 then CBX550. > My '82 Silverwing has 61K miles > (~115,000km (without looking it up or anything)), and I would be quite > happy to ride that little goomer around the world (if I could figure > how to get someone to pay for it). IMHO You are selling your bikes > Waay before thier prime. Those Hondas *were* past their prime. And parts and tune-ups cost a fortune. Balancing four carbs and adjusting 16 valves every 3000 km (2000 miles) ... grrrrrr. My previous BMW, on the other hand, was just fine at 160,000 km (100,000 miles) -- which is a lot more than your Honda currently has -- and tune-ups are cheap and infrequent. -- Bruce ###### Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> From: Dowe Keller Date: 23 Feb 2002 21:57:04 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.165 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.165 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1014534059 209.234.196.165 (23 Feb 2002 23:00:59 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102502 Bruce Hoult writes: > Mostly in the past I've had motorcycles. At first I had Hondas, which I > sold when they got to 30,000 km or so. Then I moved to BMWs, which I > *bought* with 30,000 km. I kept my 1986 K100RT until it had done > 160,000 km and was nine years old, and sold it only because I thought > the radical new model (1995 R1100RT) was so much better that I *had* to > have it. I have no current intention to ever sell the R1100 as it's > still a great joy every time I ride it. You got rid of your Honda's at 30,000km (what's that 14K miles (too lazy to look it up myself)). My '82 Silverwing has 61K miles (~115,000km (without looking it up or anything)), and I would be quite happy to ride that little goomer around the world (if I could figure how to get someone to pay for it). IMHO You are selling your bikes Waay before thier prime. -- dowe@sierratel.com The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison ###### Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20020223091048.050d144e.steveo@eircom.net> From: Dowe Keller Date: 23 Feb 2002 22:04:39 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.165 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.165 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1014534507 209.234.196.165 (23 Feb 2002 23:08:27 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102504 Steve O'Hara-Smith writes: > On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:02:42 -0500 > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: > > CSH> The ultimate insult to me last year was a telemarketer that wasn't even > CSH> a human. The entire process was a computer with voice recognition. > CSH> I listened long enough to figure out what it was since it was a new one > CSH> for me. > > Oh shit! There *is* a market for machines that can pass a limited > Turing test. Nope, to pass the Turing test, it would have to counterfiet a human. That program just counterfiets a telemarketrat. The later is easier because the program doesn't have to pay any attention to user input. -- dowe@sierratel.com The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:43:16 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 29 Message-ID: <20020224084316.7170e705.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> <3C779C87.1E15FEF0@yahoo.com> <20020223161333.67335745.steveo@eircom.net> <3C780B34.DB0078EF@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2971.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014547567 15284 194.134.219.164 (24 Feb 2002 10:46:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:46:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102521 On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:08:14 GMT CBFalconer wrote: C> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: C> > C> > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:49:51 GMT C> > CBFalconer wrote: C> > C> > C> C> > C> > Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) C> > C> C> > C> Not necessarily. That would have cured an intermittent open on C> > C> one bit line such as a cold soldered joint, for example. Well, C> > C> masked at least. C> > C> > Good point, but I'm not sure I'd want such a problem masked. C> C> If it is recording irreplaceable data you would, along with a C> report of the incipient fault. That'll do nicely - a little light saying "apply solder here" would be heaven. Silently working is the one I would object to. I'm all for fault detection and disaster prevention, I just don't like fault hiding. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:50:14 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 28 Message-ID: <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2971.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014547568 15284 194.134.219.164 (24 Feb 2002 10:46:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:46:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102520 On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:26:38 GMT "Bill Todd" wrote: BT> > It sounds good, but carbon atoms are indistinguishable it makes no BT> > difference where the carbon comes from all that matters is how much is BT> > turned into CO2. For every atom of fossil carbon that is burnt an atom of BT> > recently trapped carbon stays trapped. BT> BT> I'm afraid you don't under the ecosystem well enough. The problem with your I doubt that anybody does. BT> assertion is that recently-trapped carbon *doesn't* stay trapped: if it BT> isn't burned, it eventually decomposes and releases the same CO2 anyway - so BT> CO2 released from burning fossil fuels instead is a net CO2 gain. From this you are implying that it is possible to burn recently trapped carbon *without* increasing the rate of return of that carbon to the atmospere. I find that *very* hard to believe. I expect that the rate of return is increased by essentially the amount burned. Perhaps it is possible to increase the rate of capture (by more planting) to compensate but that doesn't seem to depend on where the burnt carbon came from. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3C78AADE.E2C2A555@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> <8jp95a.f59.ln@escape.shannon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:15:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014542121 12.90.167.160 (Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:15:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:15:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102468 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > > In article <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net>, > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:37:30 -0500 > > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: > > > > CSH> I had a Windows machine that died so much I couldn't use it. > > CSH> > > CSH> I put ECC DRAM in the system and it stopped crashing. > > > > Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) > > That was at least partially a joke about Windows... > > But in any case, I have read before that the failure rates for PC > memory are very, very high. Not necessarily in terms of a bit > being bad, but errors occuring during a read or a burst write, > which must be retried or detected by hardware. What I have read > suggests that ECC helps this situation by correcting some of > those errors. I don't see how, but the memory in question tested > fine in another system with a reportedly better memory system. Like the lack of ECC, another case of misguided penny pinching, more commonly known as overclocking. Or just failure to design in normal safety margins. My machine can get the wrong answer quicker than yours. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### Message-ID: <3C78AC92.9B3691FA@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:15:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014542122 12.90.167.160 (Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:15:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:15:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102466 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > > In article , > Stan Barr wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: > > > > > >You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions > > > > > > > There was an item on tv the other day about a group of farmers who are > > generating electricity and heating commercially from it (well bovine > > anyway...) ;-) > > I think the University of Georgia is now burning chicken fat to generate > electricity. It was on CNN the other night, and evidently they can > use almost any "kitchen grease" from homeowners, restaurants, etc. > It has about 95% the power of fossil fuels, but burns very clean. > > I wonder if PETA is aware of this new idea... :) Nothing new about it. Before about 1850 (and Pennsylvania oil) where do you think lamp oil and candles came from? Piped gas is non-organic and part of the industrial revolution, really a byproduct of coke production (coal-gas) and a thing to be considered by any user of a coal fired furnace or heater. Much more dangerous than the occasional CO producing oil or gas furnace today. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 03:43:14 -0600 Distribution: world Reply-To: djim55@cheesydatasync.com Message-ID: References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> <3C78AC92.9B3691FA@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-619.datasync.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-619.datasync.com X-Trace: news.bnb-lp.com 1014543955 msp1-619.datasync.com (24 Feb 2002 04:45:55 -0500) Organization: BnB, L.P. - send abuse complaints to abuse@bnb-lp.com Lines: 14 X-Authenticated-User: jim Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp.abs.net!news.itconsult.net!news.bnb-lp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102561 CBFalconer wrote: ] Nothing new about it. Before about 1850 (and Pennsylvania oil) ] where do you think lamp oil and candles came from? Piped gas is Some lamp oil came from whales. But, as you point out, many methods of lighting came from fat rendered from animals. JimP. -- djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard. Updated: February 21, 2002 my 1E AD&D game world. http://blue7green.crosswinds.net/crestar/crestarentrance.html ###### From: Dave Daniels Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:35:55 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4b0dc5366bdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> User-Agent: Pluto/2.02e (RISC-OS/4.27) Organization: None Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: usercq47.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1014549355 news.dial.pipex.com 8509 62.188.156.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tiscali.nl!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102543 In article , Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: > PS Children have been killed by airbags exploding at this low speed. > WTF were the dopes who mandated this crap thinking? Do a search on the web for 'Safety Last'. This was an article printed in 'Mother Jones' magazine in 1977 about the Ford Pinto. It would be fair to desribe me as your typical, cynical 'been there, done it, got the teeshirt' Brit, but even I found that article an eye opener. Dave Daniels ###### Message-ID: <3C78C2C0.703E32C9@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> <3C78AC92.9B3691FA@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:43:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.167.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014547417 12.90.167.118 (Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:43:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:43:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102563 "D.J." wrote: > > CBFalconer wrote: > ] Nothing new about it. Before about 1850 (and Pennsylvania oil) > ] where do you think lamp oil and candles came from? Piped gas is > > Some lamp oil came from whales. But, as you point out, many methods > of lighting came from fat rendered from animals. Most lamp oil in that period was whale oil. Mechanical lubrication also depended on animal fats. Whales are animals, in fact mammals. :-) And highly endangered, unlike sheep and pigs. I believe both Norway and Japan are insisting on continuing whale hunting, which has been banned since at least 1985. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 24 Feb 2002 12:00:25 GMT Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-200-245.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1014552025 news.dial.pipex.com 232 62.190.200.245 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news.ebone.net!news1.ebone.net!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102489 On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:20:47 -0500, Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: >In article , >Stan Barr wrote: >> On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:12:03 GMT, CBFalconer wrote: >> > >> >You are forgetting equine (and bovine and human) methane emissions >> > >> >> There was an item on tv the other day about a group of farmers who are >> generating electricity and heating commercially from it (well bovine >> anyway...) ;-) > >I think the University of Georgia is now burning chicken fat to generate >electricity. It was on CNN the other night, and evidently they can >use almost any "kitchen grease" from homeowners, restaurants, etc. >It has about 95% the power of fossil fuels, but burns very clean. > >I wonder if PETA is aware of this new idea... :) There's a guy here who runs his diesel car on used oil from chip-shops and restaurants...he still has to pay fuel tax on it though ;-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:04:46 -0600 Distribution: world Reply-To: djim55@cheesydatasync.com Message-ID: <2llh7ugbvrhjs9tn9smv9etm5npq5rqofq@4ax.com> References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> <3C78AC92.9B3691FA@yahoo.com> <3C78C2C0.703E32C9@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-221.datasync.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-221.datasync.com X-Trace: news.bnb-lp.com 1014552453 msp1-221.datasync.com (24 Feb 2002 07:07:33 -0500) Organization: BnB, L.P. - send abuse complaints to abuse@bnb-lp.com Lines: 20 X-Authenticated-User: jim Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator!feed2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!news.bnb-lp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102469 CBFalconer wrote: ] Most lamp oil in that period was whale oil. Mechanical ] lubrication also depended on animal fats. ] ] Whales are animals, in fact mammals. :-) And highly endangered, ] unlike sheep and pigs. I believe both Norway and Japan are ] insisting on continuing whale hunting, which has been banned since ] at least 1985. Yup. But then I have read that book Melville wrote about a whaling ship. My dad is from Maine, and I studied US history after high school. JimP. -- djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard. Updated: February 21, 2002 my 1E AD&D game world. http://blue7green.crosswinds.net/crestar/crestarentrance.html ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:07:33 -0600 Distribution: world Reply-To: djim55@cheesydatasync.com Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <4b0dc5366bdave_daniels@argonet.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-221.datasync.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-221.datasync.com X-Trace: news.bnb-lp.com 1014552620 msp1-221.datasync.com (24 Feb 2002 07:10:20 -0500) Organization: BnB, L.P. - send abuse complaints to abuse@bnb-lp.com Lines: 16 X-Authenticated-User: jim Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.bnb-lp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102473 ] In article , ] Heinz W. Wiggeshoff wrote: ] > PS Children have been killed by airbags exploding at this low speed. ] > WTF were the dopes who mandated this crap thinking? The person who led the fight to install airbags was one of the candidates for US Pres last election. Why none of the reporters mentioned it nor grilled him for it, is unknown. JimP. -- djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard. Updated: February 21, 2002 my 1E AD&D game world. http://blue7green.crosswinds.net/crestar/crestarentrance.html ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 24 Feb 2002 12:59:53 GMT Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-200-128.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1014555593 news.dial.pipex.com 230 62.190.200.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!btnet-peer!btnet!lnewspeer01.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102494 On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:50:14 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:26:38 GMT >"Bill Todd" wrote: > >BT> > It sounds good, but carbon atoms are indistinguishable it makes no >BT> > difference where the carbon comes from all that matters is how much is >BT> > turned into CO2. For every atom of fossil carbon that is burnt an atom of >BT> > recently trapped carbon stays trapped. >BT> >BT> I'm afraid you don't under the ecosystem well enough. The problem with your > > I doubt that anybody does. > >BT> assertion is that recently-trapped carbon *doesn't* stay trapped: if it >BT> isn't burned, it eventually decomposes and releases the same CO2 anyway - so >BT> CO2 released from burning fossil fuels instead is a net CO2 gain. > > From this you are implying that it is possible to burn recently >trapped carbon *without* increasing the rate of return of that carbon to >the atmospere. I find that *very* hard to believe. I expect that the rate >of return is increased by essentially the amount burned. Perhaps it is >possible to increase the rate of capture (by more planting) to compensate >but that doesn't seem to depend on where the burnt carbon came from. No, like I implied in my original posting, the problem is time-travel: by burning fossil fuels you're effectively transporting carbon dioxide from millions of years ago to the present day thus increasing the total amount in the atsmophere. Burning recently grown plant material merely re-circulates the same carbon repeatedly, but doesn't increase the total stock. Higher CO2 levels do lead to increased plant growth, so there is some negative feedback, but it appears not to be enough to stabilize CO2 at the present level. There are a number of erudite papers on the subject ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: Chris Morgan Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 24 Feb 2002 09:47:31 -0500 Organization: Linux Hackers Unlimited Message-ID: <87lmdj9bss.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> Sender: cm@tweety.mihalis.net References: X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!deine.net!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102534 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > Car companies are starting to hate anyone who keeps an old one running, > and seem to be getting more nasty about it each year. Part of this comes from government regulations, and it does reduce emissions from old clunkers (unless you scrap a beetle and buy a great big honking SUV with that bizarre emissions loophole, in which case it's probably no gain). -- Chris Morgan http://www.mihalis.net Temp sig. - Enquire within ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 52 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:15:16 CST X-Trace: sv3-gw11RRY3vAyu56J4gzzOH3cqgoNxj/yIWglUeItnTENR59TDgCmehPVUuXVvIk3vcpxCka815YYLFr6!wx7dWYea3uDDIYCpppa5iVndJPO21lKKDGyQkS+wzeUDya6D4NNpaNZJSdteu8tmTr8U1L9KeFLR!pjvfhoNi/8iUxr6vT9tlG85W X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:15:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.siscom.net!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102470 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net... > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 21:26:38 GMT > "Bill Todd" wrote: > > BT> > It sounds good, but carbon atoms are indistinguishable it makes no > BT> > difference where the carbon comes from all that matters is how much is > BT> > turned into CO2. For every atom of fossil carbon that is burnt an atom of > BT> > recently trapped carbon stays trapped. > BT> > BT> I'm afraid you don't under the ecosystem well enough. The problem with your > > I doubt that anybody does. > > BT> assertion is that recently-trapped carbon *doesn't* stay trapped: if it > BT> isn't burned, it eventually decomposes and releases the same CO2 anyway - so > BT> CO2 released from burning fossil fuels instead is a net CO2 gain. > > From this you are implying that it is possible to burn recently > trapped carbon *without* increasing the rate of return of that carbon to > the atmospere. I find that *very* hard to believe. Then you aren't thinking about it in the right way. Take it to the extreme that only deadwood is burned. Granting that this will place a limit on how much burning can take place, if you burn it at a rate that exactly matches the rate at which it accumulates *by definition* you can't be increasing the rate of return of carbon to the atmosphere (at least if you ignore carbon from fallen deadwood that may become trapped in the soil rather than released by decomposition - but at long as decomposition releases *any* carbon to the atmosphere this makes burning deadwood preferable to burning fossil fuel in terms of net CO2 elevation), only shifting that return forward slightly in time. The same is true for burning wood that isn't dead, as long as the overall planetary vegetation level is preserved - the time-shift in the return just increases a bit. Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise locked-in fossil carbon is correct but doesn't directly address your argument that carbon is carbon. The above does. If current vegetation were being buried and fossilized at the same rate we dig and pump fossil fuel your argument would hold water, but such is not the case at all. - bill ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 29 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:11:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.174.228.167 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014581498 199.174.228.167 (Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:11:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:11:38 PST X-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:11:35 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102589 "Bill Todd" writes: > Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise locked-in fossil > carbon is correct but doesn't directly address your argument that carbon is > carbon. The above does. If current vegetation were being buried and > fossilized at the same rate we dig and pump fossil fuel your argument would > hold water, but such is not the case at all. but does that mean that all this fossil fuel burning is actually restoring the natural earth's ecological balanace ... since those elements had been unnaturally(?) removed from the normal ecology ... and that burning all fossil fuel over a few tens of years (depleting a non-renewable resource) is an accelerated attempt to restore all those resources to the standard ecology (fossilized material is unnatural state and so it is our duty to restore it to normal ecology as quickly as possible). note that there have been somewhat similar thread in comp.society.futures. random pieces: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#20 there was posting today claiming that various oil extraction is now approaching (or has crossed) negative energy expenditure (i.e. energy needed to extract the oil is greater than the energy available in the oil extracted); somewhat orthogonal to whether or not all such fossil resources need to be restored to standard ecological balance. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 59 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <66ce8.206658$Re2.15001211@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:33:06 CST X-Trace: sv3-9l7gy513ryhGjAWvCsdbzoGtY+FMqIWZl+sqUqWXnQJt2N5gGmH+JnQs3p0SWR5ENH3sTI76iy+xUTm!LlwYgjCjYBA74Nkl0cXmhA+/3VhooNciWDPLB6vna0lqDxMf2sAYQ1rVJUr0xBPfvSusegfbJVBS!xDL5J0JcuA3e9i9Eu/XQ4ju0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:33:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102565 "Anne & Lynn Wheeler" wrote in message news:ud6yuzlly.fsf@earthlink.net... > "Bill Todd" writes: > > Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise locked-in fossil > > carbon is correct but doesn't directly address your argument that carbon is > > carbon. The above does. If current vegetation were being buried and > > fossilized at the same rate we dig and pump fossil fuel your argument would > > hold water, but such is not the case at all. > > but does that mean that all this fossil fuel burning is actually > restoring the natural earth's ecological balanace ... since those > elements had been unnaturally(?) removed from the normal ecology > ... and that burning all fossil fuel over a few tens of years > (depleting a non-renewable resource) is an accelerated attempt to > restore all those resources to the standard ecology (fossilized > material is unnatural state and so it is our duty to restore it to > normal ecology as quickly as possible). 1. It's very tempting to call such a question downright silly. 2. But the answer is an emphatic "No", since at the time the carbon was fossilized there weren't any 'unnatural' (i.e., man-made) forces around to cause it: we're the ones perturbing the ecology by extracting it, and forces at least somewhat similar to those that fossilized it in the first place are still at work today, just not producing new fossil fuel at anything like the rate we're consuming it. 3. And in any case the answer is irrelevant: the question is not whether some historical 'natural' balance is in some way intrinsically desirable but what effect burning fossil fuels has (and has already had) on the earth's *current* balance (i.e., the one we, and many other species, depend upon for our survival). > > note that there have been somewhat similar thread in > comp.society.futures. random pieces: > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#6 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#20 > > there was posting today claiming that various oil extraction is now > approaching (or has crossed) negative energy expenditure (i.e. energy > needed to extract the oil is greater than the energy available in the > oil extracted); somewhat orthogonal to whether or not all such fossil > resources need to be restored to standard ecological balance. Oil has important uses unrelated to energy production - yet another reason to conserve it. But even if it were used only for energy production, its portability as a mobile fuel could quite possibly justify devoting more energy to extracting it than it produced (though would not be able to justify burning it in stationary power plants). - bill ###### From: Bernd Paysan Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Followup-To: comp.arch Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:15:26 +0100 Organization: Bernd Paysan, 81477 Muenchen, Germany Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <66ce8.206658$Re2.15001211@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Complaints-To: news@cohen.paysan.nom NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2002 21:15:26 GMT User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 NNTP-Posting-Host: dial064.mucweb.de X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: dial064.mucweb.de X-Trace: 24 Feb 2002 23:01:45 +0100, dial064.mucweb.de X-Original-Trace: 24 Feb 2002 23:01:45 +0100, dial064.mucweb.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newsfeed.r-kom.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.space.net!news.touch.net!cohen.paysan.nom!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102583 Bill Todd wrote: > 1. It's very tempting to call such a question downright silly. ;-) > 2. But the answer is an emphatic "No", since at the time the carbon > was fossilized there weren't any 'unnatural' (i.e., man-made) forces > around to > cause it: we're the ones perturbing the ecology by extracting it, and > forces at least somewhat similar to those that fossilized it in the > first place are still at work today, just not producing new fossil > fuel at anything like the rate we're consuming it. That's not exactly true. There are various natural forces around that perturbate the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. One is volcanic activity (primary source for real fresh CO2), the other is errosion of basaltic mountains (revealing calcium, which binds CO2 permanently by becoming lime, and therefore is a CO2 sink). The Himalaya mountains currently (geological speeking) are the largest CO2 sink. We live in an ice age, and CO2 concentration is much lower than usual (in geological time spans; the fact that I don't have a glacier, but a lake at biking distance is a short-term perturbation of the climate, and sooner or later, the glacier will be back). Most CO2 of past periods isn't fossiled as coal or oil, but as CO2 in lime. If you imagine that you are sitting on kilometers of lime, you can imagine how much CO2 there really is on earth. Fortunately, almost all of it is rock solid. IMHO the earth won't have a problem with a higher CO2 concentration (which would be closer to the long-term average). We humans will have the problems. Our largest settling places are close to coasts or to large rivers. It's not to our advantage if we mess with the climate. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ ###### Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> From: Bernd Felsche User-Agent: nn/6.6.3 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:33:02 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: innovative.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1014601491 11651 203.59.144.24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102614 "Bill Todd" writes: >Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise >locked-in fossil carbon is correct but doesn't directly address >your argument that carbon is carbon. The above does. If current >vegetation were being buried and fossilized at the same rate we dig >and pump fossil fuel your argument would hold water, but such is >not the case at all. Plants have been around for a long time on the Earth. IIRC, Earth's atmosphere had only traces of O2 when plant life proliferated. Remember that plants rip the C out of CO2 and produce O2 which allows us to breathe. It's that initial atmospheric C that's bound into fossil fuels. By burning fossil fuels, you're merely returning the Earth to its "original" state. :-) -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! ###### From: Floyd Davidson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 24 Feb 2002 20:55:57 -0900 Organization: __________ Lines: 47 Sender: floyd@barrow.com Message-ID: <87k7t23y1e.fld@barrow.com> References: <3C76A4AF.E03559F4@yahoo.com> <3C78AC92.9B3691FA@yahoo.com> <3C78C2C0.703E32C9@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-651.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: gnus 5.8.3/XEmacs 21.1.9/Linux Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102569 CBFalconer wrote: >"D.J." wrote: >> >> CBFalconer wrote: >> ] Nothing new about it. Before about 1850 (and Pennsylvania oil) >> ] where do you think lamp oil and candles came from? Piped gas is >> >> Some lamp oil came from whales. But, as you point out, many methods >> of lighting came from fat rendered from animals. > >Most lamp oil in that period was whale oil. Mechanical >lubrication also depended on animal fats. > >Whales are animals, in fact mammals. :-) And highly endangered, >unlike sheep and pigs. I believe both Norway and Japan are >insisting on continuing whale hunting, which has been banned since >at least 1985. Whales as such are not endangered. And whale hunting has not been banned since 1985. Some whales are endangered, and some people have banned hunting of some whales. But to be quite honest it has a lot more to do with politics and emotions than it does with any science. In the late 1970's for example the International Whaling Commission tried to ban whaling here in Barrow, and in fact one year the people here did go without any whales. Since then virtually *every* claim that was made to support that ban has been proven wrong. Scientist came here claiming the Inupiat Eskimo people were about to hunt the last Bowhead whale. But today every scientific experiment that whale biologists do is designed in conjunction with the Alaska Eskimo Whaling Commission, because the scientist found out that every time they set up an experiment to prove Eskimos are wrong, they prove Eskimos are right. Typically a bowhead whale taken here (22 each year) is 40 feet long and weighs about 80,000 pounds. Add that up in how many sheep and pigs it would take to replace whales meat here! Who is going to pay the air freight to ship it in too? And, whale meat is healthy food. Unlike pigs and cows and ... -- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com ###### From: "Dennis O'Connor" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:33:37 -0700 Organization: Global Crossing Telecommunications Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: radsl-dmoc.phx.primenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: node21.cwnet.roc.gblx.net 1014618795 18250 208.48.202.44 (25 Feb 2002 06:33:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@gblx.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:33:15 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!novia!novia!feeder.qis.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!news.frontiernet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102613 What is the problem with people in alt.folklore.computers ? Why do they continue cross-posting off-topic crap to comp.arch ? Are they really just alt.syntax.tactical in disguise ? Or is it senility ? Sheesh. How tough is it to check your headers when you post ? -- Dennis O'Connor dmoc@primenet.com We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:03:01 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 16 Message-ID: <20020225080301.065e643b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <20020223091048.050d144e.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2710.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014660004 12368 194.134.218.159 (25 Feb 2002 18:00:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeed.rt.ru!image.surnet.ru!surnet.ru!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102604 On 23 Feb 2002 22:04:39 -0800 Dowe Keller wrote: DK> Nope, to pass the Turing test, it would have to counterfiet a human. DK> DK> That program just counterfiets a telemarketrat. The later is easier DK> because the program doesn't have to pay any attention to user input. Just to be sure here - telemarketrats is not a subset of human beings ? -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:04:09 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 13 Message-ID: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p2710.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014660004 12368 194.134.218.159 (25 Feb 2002 18:00:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!209.251.2.12.MISMATCH!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102605 On Sun, 24 Feb 02 10:29:59 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> Every system had to have a method to mark bad blocks. They still do need one - these days it tends to be in the drive firmware but it hasn't gone away. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:29:44 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 56 Message-ID: <20020225082944.2ec6db56.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3C7147E4.2D3BC3C@yahoo.com> <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> <8jp95a.f59.ln@escape.shannon.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2710.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014660009 12368 194.134.218.159 (25 Feb 2002 18:00:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!209.251.2.12.MISMATCH!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102607 On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:18:48 -0500 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: CSH> In article <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net>, CSH> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: CSH> > On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:37:30 -0500 CSH> > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: CSH> > CSH> > CSH> I had a Windows machine that died so much I couldn't use it. CSH> > CSH> CSH> > CSH> I put ECC DRAM in the system and it stopped crashing. CSH> > CSH> > Methinks *any* working RAM would have done the trick :) CSH> CSH> That was at least partially a joke about Windows... I know - I just couldn't leave it alone :) CSH> But in any case, I have read before that the failure rates for PC memory CSH> are very, very high. Not necessarily in terms of a bit being bad, but CSH> errors occuring during a read or a burst write, which must be retried I think this is mostly bad RAM, underspec RAM (tested at 100 marked 133), or badly driven RAM (timing constraints not honoured). CSH> or detected by hardware. What I have read suggests that ECC helps this CSH> situation by correcting some of those errors. I don't see how, but the CSH> memory in question tested fine in another system with a reportedly better CSH> memory system. The one that worked probably kept the RAM inside the timing specs. Bad DRAM timing is nothing new, when I was at Torch I saw (after my PCB layouts were done) the drawings for a competing (unfinished) Z80 card for the BBC (you may guess whose). I worked out the timings for this board and found that RAS, CAS and the address multiplex switch could come in any order depending on where in the tolerance bands the components fell. If you were very lucky it might even hit the spec of the RAM. Needless to say *my* Z80 card had every signal in spec so long as every component was somewhere in the tolerance band specified by the manufacturer, but it is surprising how many hardware designers at the time didn't bother with timing diagrams, or if they did didn't bother to mark the tolerances and propogation delays properly. I get the impression that similar things are happening still, although I will grant that the traps are probably easier to fall in at a couple of gigahertz than at a couple of megahertz ... er how long was that track and just how inductive is that connector ? - oops there goes a quarter cycle :( -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: D.J. Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 01:54:32 -0600 Distribution: world Reply-To: djim55@cheesydatasync.com Message-ID: <1crj7usla1oejoev19eka8qab6498h5ln8@4ax.com> References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-431.datasync.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: msp1-431.datasync.com X-Trace: news.bnb-lp.com 1014623832 msp1-431.datasync.com (25 Feb 2002 02:57:12 -0500) Organization: BnB, L.P. - send abuse complaints to abuse@bnb-lp.com Lines: 17 X-Authenticated-User: jim Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!news.bnb-lp.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102619 "Dennis O'Connor" wrote: ] What is the problem with people in alt.folklore.computers ? ] Why do they continue cross-posting off-topic crap to comp.arch ? ] Are they really just alt.syntax.tactical in disguise ? Or is it senility ? ] ] Sheesh. How tough is it to check your headers when you post ? My posting software is set to only allow posting and followups to one newsgroup at a time. In this case, alt.folklore.computers JimP. -- djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard. Updated: February 25, 2002 my 1E AD&D game world. http://blue7green.crosswinds.net/crestar/index.html ###### From: rsteiner@visi.com (Richard Steiner) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Organization: FIELDATA FORTRAN ENTHUSIASTS CLUB Reply-To: rsteiner@visi.com Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> X-Newsreader: Yarn for OS/2 v0.92 X-Stuff-Running: There are 62 Processes with 237 Threads. X-HomePage: http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner Lines: 19 User-Agent: VSoup v1.2.9.48Beta [OS/2] Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:59:45 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.25.198.250 X-Complaints-To: abuse@visi.com X-Trace: ruti.visi.com 1014631384 65.25.198.250 (Mon, 25 Feb 2002 04:03:04 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 04:03:04 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!ruti.visi.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102575 Here in alt.folklore.computers, "Dennis O'Connor" spake unto us, saying: >What is the problem with people in alt.folklore.computers ? >Why do they continue cross-posting off-topic crap to comp.arch ? >Are they really just alt.syntax.tactical in disguise ? Or is it >senility ? Just because you're using a brain-dead newsreader is no reason to take out your problems on the denizens of this newsgroup. It should be a trivial task to set up a scoring rule to zap unwanted crosspostings. I suggest you do so, preferably with all speed. -- -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN OS/2 + BeOS + Linux + Solaris + Win95 + WinNT4 + FreeBSD + DOS + PC/GEOS + Fusion + vMac + Executor = PC Hobbyist Heaven! :-) Two monologues do not make a dialogue. ###### Message-ID: <3C7A4BA3.D9FA547B@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> <3C768DA5.6702A958@earthlink.net> <3C76A409.DDB2A612@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:48:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.124.16 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1014648504 168.191.124.16 (Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:48:24 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:48:24 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:48:24 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102580 CBFalconer wrote: > I believe it is. So is failure to clearly price tag items in the > grocery store (at least in CT), or to fail to have sale items in > stock. IMHO the cure for the latter two is to empower the > citizenry to issue citations on the spot, possibly requiring > multiple signatories, which would result in considerable state > income from fines and reduce aggravation. I believe here in NY, if the "shelf tag" is lower than the "current price" the store rings up, you can demand the item at the lower cost. I have done this several times. This tends to occur when an item is on sale one week and store staff fail to remove the tag the following week. One thing I have noticed is now the tags clearly indicate the end date of the sale. I have not yet had the opportunity to challenge one of these to see if they would still sell the item for the tagged price even though the sale date is listed. They're actually pretty good about pulling the tags when the sale is over. Law or no, the cost to the store in customer satisfaction is high if they don't and every time I have done this (a grand total of about 4 times over 20 years), the store staff has immediately pulled the tag so I don't think the financial cost is very large. As to telemarketers, hanging is appropriate justice, but until they start putting CEO's and their boards in jail for long periods, (think Enron, Global Crossing, etc.) I think business practices will favor the profits of a few at the expense of "the rest of us". I've thought for years that corporation law should be rewritten to specify the order of who should benefit from a corporation as something like: Society first, employees next and stock holders last. I think this would be a tough sell, particularly to the stock holders, and to some extent that is "the rest of us". Our greed may have smaller reward but it is there, checked your 401K lately? Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: pw@panix.com (Paul Wallich) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:27:50 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: vt-montpelier1a-442.bur.adelphia.net X-Trace: reader1.panix.com 1014650863 25955 24.48.165.186 (25 Feb 2002 15:27:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:27:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!pw Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102627 In article , Bernd Felsche wrote: >"Bill Todd" writes: > >>Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise >>locked-in fossil carbon is correct but doesn't directly address >>your argument that carbon is carbon. The above does. If current >>vegetation were being buried and fossilized at the same rate we dig >>and pump fossil fuel your argument would hold water, but such is >>not the case at all. > >Plants have been around for a long time on the Earth. IIRC, Earth's >atmosphere had only traces of O2 when plant life proliferated. >Remember that plants rip the C out of CO2 and produce O2 which >allows us to breathe. > >It's that initial atmospheric C that's bound into fossil fuels. >By burning fossil fuels, you're merely returning the Earth to its >"original" state. :-) Of course, that "original" state happens to be devoid of almost all complex land-based animal life, and supports only a limited variety (albeit in gread quantity) of plants. Even though it's a perfectly natural phenomenon for thousands of species to be wiped out (it happens and the world ecosystem rebuilds over a few million years) it's not something to cheer if you're a member of one of the species in question. I wonder what the descendants of cockroaches (or whatever) will think in 50 million years of the thin layer of sediment at certain sites containing billions of slivers of almost pure silicon degraded into clay. paul ###### From: Keith R. Williams Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:59:44 -0500 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de> <41075a.3sg.ln@escape.shannon.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-918.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.50 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!freenix!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102617 In article <41075a.3sg.ln@escape.shannon.net>, shannon@news.widomaker.com says... > Don't forget, those timesheets must be in by Thursday evening or Friday > morning, 3 days before you actually know your total hours for the week. At least ours weren't *so* bad. They moved the first day of the week to Saturday, so there was only one day to guess. Then there were the ones who wanted an accurate accounting of time, even though we weren't paid overtime. Now there is no time accounting at all. Perhaps some things do change for the better. ---- Keith ###### Message-ID: <3C7A70AC.FAED6FFB@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C73E297.4CB67264@earthlink.net> <3C768DA5.6702A958@earthlink.net> <3C76A409.DDB2A612@yahoo.com> <3C7A4BA3.D9FA547B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:23:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.177.124 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014657826 12.90.177.124 (Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:23:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:23:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102566 jchausler wrote: > > CBFalconer wrote: > > > I believe it is. So is failure to clearly price tag items in the > > grocery store (at least in CT), or to fail to have sale items in > > stock. IMHO the cure for the latter two is to empower the > > citizenry to issue citations on the spot, possibly requiring > > multiple signatories, which would result in considerable state > > income from fines and reduce aggravation. > > I believe here in NY, if the "shelf tag" is lower than the "current > price" the store rings up, you can demand the item at the lower > cost. I have done this several times. This tends to occur when > an item is on sale one week and store staff fail to remove the > tag the following week. One thing I have noticed is now the > tags clearly indicate the end date of the sale. I have not yet > had the opportunity to challenge one of these to see if they would > still sell the item for the tagged price even though the sale date > is listed. They're actually pretty good about pulling the tags when In CT the law says they are free if *advertised* on sale at a lower price. Some stores also publish a policy that says "free if mis-scanned" or words to that effect. I get something free about once a week. Meanwhile they have made extra profit from all those who didn't notice. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:31:16 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 46 Message-ID: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p2710.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014660010 12368 194.134.218.159 (25 Feb 2002 18:00:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!209.251.2.12.MISMATCH!news-xfer2.newshosting.com!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102600 On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:15:16 GMT "Bill Todd" wrote: BT> BT> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message BT> news:20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net... BT> > From this you are implying that it is possible to burn recently BT> > trapped carbon *without* increasing the rate of return of that carbon to BT> > the atmospere. I find that *very* hard to believe. BT> BT> Then you aren't thinking about it in the right way. BT> BT> Take it to the extreme that only deadwood is burned. Granting that this BT> will place a limit on how much burning can take place, if you burn it at a It does place a limit and therein lies my point. If only deadwood is burned and if burning it does not increase the rate of return to the atmosphere of that deadwood (which will be the case if you wait for deadwood) then yes burning deadwood has no impact on CO2. However all those 'if's seem to matter to me. If the amount of carbon burned per unit time exceeds the amount trapped per unit time then the amount of CO2 goes up. I will agree that burning fossil fuels makes it easier to burn faster than absorbtion, but so chopping and burning wood faster than regrowth will do just as good a job and may even reduce the rate of absorbtion. BT> burning wood that isn't dead, as long as the overall planetary vegetation BT> level is preserved - the time-shift in the return just increases a bit. This caveat is vital. BT> carbon. The above does. If current vegetation were being buried and BT> fossilized at the same rate we dig and pump fossil fuel your argument would BT> hold water, but such is not the case at all. I don't think we could plant vegetation fast enough to keep up with the usage if we stopped burning fossil fuels. Doing so would be an essential requirement. All that matters is the rates of burning and absorbtion, not which atoms get used. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net><20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 99 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:41:13 CST X-Trace: sv3-SysUB+wEK7FsesG97nYXQjOz5Z30yhVsPc1zLv7dkshnQsehZZp/1KmBqJQ1cHuPV9tHlpjcbL/tLJO!4n6an6Wf8jOqTqfxrDR42B3rNV1oXYarMcKFDNMzbjBHsIp3IEmJ56Eg0oKXGBa9nYozb6gx7TUX!ab33aK1PlAapmvL9uBVJ33Zq X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:41:13 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!feed.news.nacamar.de!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102567 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net... > On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:15:16 GMT > "Bill Todd" wrote: > > BT> > BT> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > BT> news:20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net... > BT> > From this you are implying that it is possible to burn recently > BT> > trapped carbon *without* increasing the rate of return of that carbon to > BT> > the atmospere. I find that *very* hard to believe. > BT> > BT> Then you aren't thinking about it in the right way. > BT> > BT> Take it to the extreme that only deadwood is burned. Granting that this > BT> will place a limit on how much burning can take place, if you burn it at a > > It does place a limit and therein lies my point. No, that wasn't your point at all: it was that 'carbon is carbon', and the above refutes that (as you appear now to agree). If only deadwood > is burned and if burning it does not increase the rate of return to the > atmosphere of that deadwood (which will be the case if you wait for deadwood) > then yes burning deadwood has no impact on CO2. However all those 'if's seem > to matter to me. Perhaps because you still haven't looked at them closely enough to understand them. > > If the amount of carbon burned per unit time exceeds the amount > trapped per unit time then the amount of CO2 goes up. Yup. And since we have a choice to burn wood that would decompose anyway if we didn't, rather than to burn fossil fuel that would otherwise stay safely trapped underground, by choosing the first option we reduce the amount of additional CO2 released. I will agree that > burning fossil fuels makes it easier to burn faster than absorbtion, but > so chopping and burning wood faster than regrowth will do just as good a > job and may even reduce the rate of absorbtion. Which is why (if you noticed) my summary analysis held overall vegetation constant. Though the argument doesn't change if one assumes some on-going erosion in overall vegetation: it's *still* preferable to burn wood rather than just allow it to rot in terms of CO2 build-up. > > BT> burning wood that isn't dead, as long as the overall planetary vegetation > BT> level is preserved - the time-shift in the return just increases a bit. > > This caveat is vital. No, it's just making the explanation more complete. In a steady-state situation shifting the return is a one-time event, rather than the continual increase in release caused by burning fossil fuels. The time-shift is a small quantitative difference, whereas the fossil release is an on-going and qualitative one. > > BT> carbon. The above does. If current vegetation were being buried and > BT> fossilized at the same rate we dig and pump fossil fuel your argument would > BT> hold water, but such is not the case at all. > > I don't think we could plant vegetation fast enough to keep up with > the usage if we stopped burning fossil fuels. Doing so would be an essential > requirement. All that matters is the rates of burning and absorbtion, not > which atoms get used. You still miss the impact of the fact that unburned wood 'burns' eventually anyway by natural means and releases its CO2. When you include the effects of that 'burning' and the ability to put that 'burned-anyway' wood to use rather than waste its energy, your argument evaporates. It may well be true that we couldn't replant vegetation fast enough to avoid *all* use of fossil fuel (at least without major additional conservation and/or shifts to other energy sources, both of which are eminently feasible) and still maintain renewability rather than depopulate our vegetation (which indeed would be counter-productive). That doesn't change the fact that substituting wood for fossil fuel to the degree that we can sustainably is an atmospheric CO2 win. - bill ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 02 10:01:45 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaScimla9ZBmovwdwNvU+AJUKdZG7BXT84eRtpNI/6v+h1kvepWW2jT X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Feb 2002 12:17:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!64.245.249.35.MISMATCH!lax2-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-66 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102684 In article <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Sun, 24 Feb 02 10:29:59 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >JC> Every system had to have a method to mark bad blocks. > > They still do need one - these days it tends to be in the drive >firmware but it hasn't gone away. > There were times, when I was using the development system, when the OS wouldn't latch onto a bad spot. So I'd just rename the file to FILE.BAD, and leave a note on TW's desk pointing at it. He'ld come in the next morning and "fix" the disk and the bug that didn't happen. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 26 Feb 02 09:19:53 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: <1878.822T2698T5595855@sky.bus.com> References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-309.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp1.phx1.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102656 In article <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com (CBFalconer) writes: >So far nobody has discovered a way to get a net power output from >any fusion system. The actual fusion reaction has to be chosen >with care, some put out many loose neutrons that then induce >radioactivity in neighboring matter. If you're looking for entertainment, check out sci.physics.fusion. I've been following it (and its precursors) since the March 23, 1989 press release by Pons & Fleischmann announcing an electrolytic cell that purportedly produced the infamous "cold fusion". Attempts by others to reproduce it have been at best inconclusive and at worst outright fraud. Although the occasional scientifically interesting tidbit emerges from time to time, the group has largely degenerated into a flamefest between the so-called True Believers and the skeptics who keep asking embarrassing questions like "Where's the water heater?" (referring to the photo of a non-working prototype of a cold-fusion water heater about the size of a large Thermos which was supposed to give you a hot cup of tea). >While fusion may be a silly way to boil water, at least it can >boil water in a fairly controllable manner. The side effects, on >the other hand, ..... > >I guess your other quote should be revised to read "Bush can make >this country into what it once was, a torrid uninhabitable >radioactive wasteland inhabited by oily cockroaches" They won't be oily. We'll have turned all the oil into smog. :-/ "Mr. President, we've determined that survival of the planet is not economically feasible. Push the button now and have some fun while you can." -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 02 09:04:05 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbg3I2ifma2NH69ax/EXHouyir/URzBuP2Ri3PtJO/bWMW2gtzvl9ER X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2002 11:20:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-31 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102679 In article <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Tue, 26 Feb 02 10:01:45 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >JC> There were times, when I was using the development >JC> system, when the OS wouldn't latch onto a bad spot. So I'd >JC> just rename the file to FILE.BAD, and leave a note on TW's > > Hmm, I used to do that on MP/M machines. I'm pretty sure I >picked up the habit and the name somewhere rather than originating it >independently. There's something traditional about that FILE.BAD name. When I was irritated, the filename would be FUCKED.UP. That's when TW knew he should work on fixing it first rather than any other stuff. > >JC> desk pointing at it. He'ld come in the next morning and >JC> "fix" the disk and the bug that didn't happen. > > Then this would get done much later (when the machine could be >taken down). > Yup. Our machines were taken down every night since TW and JMF and others needed stand-alone time. We (TOPS-10) did not have the luxury of having a complete machine available for stand-alone time during daylight hours. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 02 09:06:58 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> <1878.822T2698T5595855@sky.bus.com> <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbLBOJ3ulYz+pOb1LNA4ii1TNU3+s8C/p7NE6iklVP6MIUZM77Pf8WH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2002 11:23:01 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-31 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102686 In article <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> >> In article <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com >> (CBFalconer) writes: >> >.... snip ... >> >> >While fusion may be a silly way to boil water, at least it can >> >boil water in a fairly controllable manner. The side effects, on >> >the other hand, ..... >> > >> >I guess your other quote should be revised to read "Bush can make >> >this country into what it once was, a torrid uninhabitable >> >radioactive wasteland inhabited by oily cockroaches" >> >> They won't be oily. We'll have turned all the oil into smog. :-/ >> >> "Mr. President, we've determined that survival of the planet is >> not economically feasible. Push the button now and have some >> fun while you can." > >Has anyone ever noticed that under Republicans we get amused by >Enron, Savings and Loan, Watergate, Irangate, etc. while the >Democrats seem to give us Monicagates and attack rabbits. > They use broads and hares to distract people from their Enrons. And the S&L was produced by Democrats....for that matter, so was Enron. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 References: <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1232.815T1538T5595183@sky.bus.com> <6ueljhw8vq.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Lines: 19 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:51:57 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.240.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1014704903 62.255.240.131 (Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:28:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:28:23 GMT Organization: ntl Business News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!172.16.100.88!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102802 In article , shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: [...] > The ultimate insult to me last year was a telemarketer that wasn't even > a human. The entire process was a computer with voice recognition. > I listened long enough to figure out what it was since it was a new one > for me. I heard of someone with two phone lines who got called by two of these simultaneously. (Probably just working through the numbers sequentially.) He put the phone handsets down so that each machine was talking to the other. An hour later they were still at it... -- +- David Given --------McQ-+ "Gaping from its single obling socket was | Work: dg@tao-group.com | scintillating, many fauceted scarlet emerald..." | Play: dg@cowlark.com | --- Jim Theis, _The Eye of Argon_ (spelling +- http://www.cowlark.com -+ original) ###### Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 References: <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> From: dg@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given) Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:57:11 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.240.131 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 1014704903 62.255.240.131 (Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:28:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:28:23 GMT Organization: ntl Business News Service X-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:28:37 GMT (newsr2.u-net.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.ifi.unizh.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!newsr2.u-net.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!172.16.100.88!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102803 In article , shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: [...] > I just gave up one day after about 4 calls in a single day, and I think > I have answered my phone about 3 times in the last 4 years. We've got this thing in the UK called the Telephone Preference Service. http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tpsr/html/default.asp (Not to be confused with the DMA's Telephone Preference Service, which as far as I can tell does nothing.) Telemarketers in the UK are required to block calls to all people who have registered their numbers with the TPS. There are hefty fines for violating it. Since I registered last year, I have received one telemarketer call --- from the US. -- +- David Given --------McQ-+ "Gaping from its single obling socket was | Work: dg@tao-group.com | scintillating, many fauceted scarlet emerald..." | Play: dg@cowlark.com | --- Jim Theis, _The Eye of Argon_ (spelling +- http://www.cowlark.com -+ original) ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 25 Feb 2002 19:27:42 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014665262 14925 134.117.136.30 (25 Feb 2002 19:27:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Feb 2002 19:27:42 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102712 "Bill Todd" (billtodd@metrocast.net) writes: > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message [a lot of stuff about carbon] Suggestion: you two each write a carbon cycle simulation. Run it on the simulated CDC 6600 _or_ a simulated 360/91 (this is a.f.c after all), and report back in, say, six months when the results are in. ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:44:45 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> <8jp95a.f59.ln@escape.shannon.net> <20020225082944.2ec6db56.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 54 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!DirecTVinternet!DirecTV-DSL!hub1.nntpserver.com!hub1.meganetnews.com!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102738 In article <20020225082944.2ec6db56.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > CSH> But in any case, I have read before that the failure rates for PC memory > CSH> are very, very high. Not necessarily in terms of a bit being bad, but > CSH> errors occuring during a read or a burst write, which must be retried > > I think this is mostly bad RAM, underspec RAM (tested at 100 marked > 133), or badly driven RAM (timing constraints not honoured). Isn't a modern MMU supposed to query the chips to get the proper specs? It seems like they have tiny ROM chips on them that can be read by the memory access hardware. > The one that worked probably kept the RAM inside the timing specs. That's entirely possible. A lot of system BIOS is customized by the OEM or the board manfucturer. Often the default settings can depend on what perception they are after... :( I know my AMD machine's BIOS will let me set timings that are probably beyond spec on almost anything. Of course, this can be a GoodThing(TM) when new CPUs and RAM comes out that really is faster, but I wish the BIOS would query RAM and tell the truth about the proper timing, and always enable setting CPU speed independent of RAM. I don't like BIOS that picks for me, and picks wrong. > I get the impression that similar things are happening still, although > I will grant that the traps are probably easier to fall in at a couple of > gigahertz than at a couple of megahertz ... er how long was that track > and just how inductive is that connector ? - oops there goes a quarter > cycle :( Well, all memory these days is supposed to have the timing stored in ROM on the chip from what I've read, and unless the manufacturer just outright lies, any system following this "should" work. One thing I have found is that sometimes a PC BIOS will actually prevent me from settings things up correctly. For example, I had RAM in a system that could run at 133MHz and the absolute fastest RAS/CAS settings without a problem. However, picking those settings also set timing for the CPU that prevented it from working! I eventually found a hardware jumper would force the CPU to run cool even if the BIOS changed it. My current motherboard seperates timing for the CPU and RAM, so my fast RAM is set to what it needs, and the CPU is kept running at the proper speed. The other system made a 700MHz CPU run at 866MHz if you wanted the RAM to run at 133. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:55:17 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <3C78AC92.9B3691FA@yahoo.com> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102745 In article <3C78AC92.9B3691FA@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: > Nothing new about it. Before about 1850 (and Pennsylvania oil) > where do you think lamp oil and candles came from? Piped gas is > non-organic and part of the industrial revolution, really a > byproduct of coke production (coal-gas) and a thing to be > considered by any user of a coal fired furnace or heater. Much > more dangerous than the occasional CO producing oil or gas furnace > today. I said burning it for power generation, not candles and lamps. I cannot find any references to generators powered by animal fat, though I admit to not looking for a long time. The issue I think is that so much animal fat is disposed of as garbage, when it could actually be more useful. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:59:29 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102747 In article , wrote: > >I think the University of Georgia is now burning chicken fat to generate > >electricity. It was on CNN the other night, and evidently they can > >use almost any "kitchen grease" from homeowners, restaurants, etc. > >It has about 95% the power of fossil fuels, but burns very clean. > > > >I wonder if PETA is aware of this new idea... :) > > It's not a new idea. My folks tell me about saving all kinds > of fat and taking it to the recycle center during WWII. ..and it was used in power generation plants? That was the point of the program. I am sure it may have happened here and there, but I cannot find references to fat-powered power generators. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: phil@notsaying.demon.co.uk (dawks) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:01:34 GMT Message-ID: <3c7ac1f2.271981548@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de> <41075a.3sg.ln@escape.shannon.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dawks.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: dawks.demon.co.uk:194.222.153.217 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1014677982 nnrp-08:15655 NO-IDENT dawks.demon.co.uk:194.222.153.217 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!dawks.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102698 On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:50:12 -0500, shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: >In article <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de>, >Bernd Paysan wrote: > >> >> You forgot the catch-22. If you exceed expected performance, you are a >> thread to your boss. Since the bonus *also* depends on your boss >> speaking for you in a meeting of bosses, you won't get any, either >> ("Who's that Dilbert guy?"). > >Don't forget, those timesheets must be in by Thursday evening or Friday >morning, 3 days before you actually know your total hours for the week. > There were other timecard issues as well. I remember working for Raytheon during the dark DoD days ($500 hammer jobbies) when, IIRC, a timesheet had to be hung on the cube at 4:30 on a Friday. Someone would check at about 4:00 to see that it hadn't been hung up yet and then someone would check at 4:45 to see that it had. There were exemptions if you weren't in the office on a Friday or if you had a "snow number". If you broke the rules more than two or three times you had to attend an "attitude readjustment course". Software development was shite, most Brits on getting their green cards went to work for DEC up the road. Hardly surprising i suppose. dawks. -- The world is divided into two sorts of people: those that believe that the world is divided into two sorts of people and those that don't. ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:06:26 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: <2ije5a.deg.ln@escape.shannon.net> References: <87lmdj9bss.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!isdnet!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102733 In article <87lmdj9bss.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net>, Chris Morgan wrote: > Part of this comes from government regulations, and it does reduce > emissions from old clunkers (unless you scrap a beetle and buy a great > big honking SUV with that bizarre emissions loophole, in which case > it's probably no gain). Clunkers, yes. There are some old and well-tuned cars that burn clean. Besides, their numbers are not usually high as some new models by great orders of magnitude. The way emissions are done is stupid though. For example, the Beetle was targeted by the Naderites despite not polluting anywhere near as much as "conforming" vehicles. True, it put out more pollution per unit volume (and that's not always true, it depends on your engine). The thing they never considered was that a "clean" Detroit special might put out ten times as much volume. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### Message-ID: <3C7B1FCB.E1546CB1@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1014694822 12.237.69.87 (Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:40:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:40:22 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:40:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102789 Bernd Felsche wrote: > > "Bill Todd" writes: > > >Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise > >locked-in fossil carbon is correct but doesn't directly address > >your argument that carbon is carbon. The above does. If current > >vegetation were being buried and fossilized at the same rate we dig > >and pump fossil fuel your argument would hold water, but such is > >not the case at all. > > Plants have been around for a long time on the Earth. IIRC, Earth's > atmosphere had only traces of O2 when plant life proliferated. > Remember that plants rip the C out of CO2 and produce O2 which > allows us to breathe. > > It's that initial atmospheric C that's bound into fossil fuels. > By burning fossil fuels, you're merely returning the Earth to its > "original" state. :-) > Yes, without the animals to mess things up!!! Reminds me of a Steve Martin quote: "I believe that President Bush (okay, he said "Reagan", but I have update it) can turn this country back into what it once was...a frozen, barren wasteland." -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1014695246 12.237.69.87 (Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:47:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:47:26 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:47:26 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102783 "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote: > > "Bill Todd" (billtodd@metrocast.net) writes: > > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message > > [a lot of stuff about carbon] > > Suggestion: you two each write a carbon cycle simulation. > Run it on the simulated CDC 6600 _or_ a simulated 360/91 > (this is a.f.c after all), and report back in, say, six > months when the results are in. > One word: "Tokamak". That is what we need: tokamaks. Tokamaks are nuclear *fusion" reactors. They work by combining hydrogen atoms to make hellium. (Hellium is inert and is *not* notably harmful to life on earth.) One tokamak could generate a *huge* amount of electrical power!!! And they are *clean*...they produce little ambient radiation. Why do electric companies *not* embrace the tokamak??? Because it would make electricity *cheap*, and the electric companies could *not* screw us consumers to the wall with their prices!!! -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:11:16 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-199-108.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: helle.btinternet.com 1014696676 3781 213.122.199.108 (26 Feb 2002 04:11:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:11:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102711 Charles Richmond wrote in message news:3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net... [SNIP] > Why do electric companies *not* embrace the tokamak??? Because > it would make electricity *cheap*, and the electric companies > could *not* screw us consumers to the wall with their prices!!! Last I heard it was because they had to put more energy in than they got out. But my knowledge is very out of date on that one. Cheers, Rupert ###### Message-ID: <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:42:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.79 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014698543 12.90.169.79 (Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:42:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 04:42:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102631 Charles Richmond wrote: > ... snip ... > > > One word: "Tokamak". That is what we need: tokamaks. Tokamaks > are nuclear *fusion" reactors. They work by combining hydrogen > atoms to make hellium. (Hellium is inert and is *not* notably > harmful to life on earth.) One tokamak could generate a *huge* > amount of electrical power!!! And they are *clean*...they > produce little ambient radiation. > > Why do electric companies *not* embrace the tokamak??? Because > it would make electricity *cheap*, and the electric companies > could *not* screw us consumers to the wall with their prices!!! So far nobody has discovered a way to get a net power output from any fusion system. The actual fusion reaction has to be chosen with care, some put out many loose neutrons that then induce radioactivity in neighboring matter. While fusion may be a silly way to boil water, at least it can boil water in a fairly controllable manner. The side effects, on the other hand, ..... I guess your other quote should be revised to read "Bush can make this country into what it once was, a torrid uninhabitable radioactive wasteland inhabited by oily cockroaches" -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Bernd Paysan Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Followup-To: comp.arch Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:26:39 +0100 References: <87lmdj9bss.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <2ije5a.deg.ln@escape.shannon.net> User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Message-ID: Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.139.17.38 X-Trace: 1014717604 read.news.de.uu.net 186 194.139.17.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@de.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!oleane.net!oleane!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!read.news.de.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102683 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > The thing they never considered > was that a "clean" Detroit special might put out ten times as much > volume. I never understood why they did make the limits "per m² average within test cycle" instead of "total accumulated within test cycle". The "cleanest" car when they started introducing these tests here in Germany was the Porsche 911 BiTurbo. It had two brutally oversized turbo chargers with large waste-gates, and therefore the exhaust contained lots of fresh air. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 26 Feb 2002 10:36:00 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014719760 25708 134.117.136.30 (26 Feb 2002 10:36:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Feb 2002 10:36:00 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102726 Charles Richmond (richmond@ev1.net) writes: > One word: "Tokamak". That is what we need: tokamaks. Tokamaks > are nuclear *fusion" reactors. They work by combining hydrogen > atoms to make hellium. (Hellium is inert and is *not* notably > harmful to life on earth.) 'Hellium' is what my former housemate produced. Some ex managers pitched in too. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:59:22 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 25 Message-ID: <20020226185922.2b7380fa.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20020223091715.374e7d21.steveo@eircom.net> <8jp95a.f59.ln@escape.shannon.net> <20020225082944.2ec6db56.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1323.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014746405 38439 194.134.213.49 (26 Feb 2002 18:00:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:00:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102750 On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:44:45 -0500 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: CSH> Isn't a modern MMU supposed to query the chips to get the proper specs? CSH> It seems like they have tiny ROM chips on them that can be read by the CSH> memory access hardware. Well you know the quality of PC BIOSs :( It can probably be done when everything works right and no OEM has messed around with it ... CSH> Well, all memory these days is supposed to have the timing stored in CSH> ROM on the chip from what I've read, and unless the manufacturer just CSH> outright lies, any system following this "should" work. Hmm, yes well. I do recall the fake cache RAM chip scandals of a few years ago (header - no chip) so I wouldn't rule it out altogether. There also seems to be a lot more to DRAM timing these days (I haven't done that kind of hardware design for a while) so if the memory doesn't lie and the BIOS works and the OEM hasn't screwed it up all is well. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:19:34 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 44 Message-ID: <20020226191934.604a4d88.steveo@eircom.net> References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1323.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014747976 48629 194.134.213.49 (26 Feb 2002 18:26:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:26:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102748 On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:41:13 GMT "Bill Todd" wrote: BT> No, that wasn't your point at all: it was that 'carbon is carbon', and the BT> above refutes that (as you appear now to agree). Huh - in full my point was that carbon is carbon and that all that matters is the rate at which it is returned to the atmosphere. It still is and I still stand by it. BT> Yup. And since we have a choice to burn wood that would decompose anyway if BT> we didn't, rather than to burn fossil fuel that would otherwise stay safely BT> trapped underground, by choosing the first option we reduce the amount of BT> additional CO2 released. I do not believe that it is possible to fuel the human race on deadwood. BT> No, it's just making the explanation more complete. In a steady-state BT> situation shifting the return is a one-time event, rather than the continual BT> increase in release caused by burning fossil fuels. The time-shift is a BT> small quantitative difference, whereas the fossil release is an on-going and BT> qualitative one. Yes fine, if we assume a steady state then we get a steady state, what a surprise! There is no indication that we *can* assume a steady state. If the rate of burning carbon exceeds the rate of capture the concentration of CO2 will go up, if it does not it will not. Which carbon is burnt matters not at all, what matters is how fast it is burned and how fast it is captured. You seem to believe that by choosing to burn recently captured carbon the rates will magically balance - I do not see the magic that makes this happen, it isn't there. The win in using dead wood is that we get to use the energy of decomposition, the loss is that we have to collect the dead wood. In the long run it may be necessary to compensate for the absence of the rotting wood (fertilisers perhaps) and bang goes the energy win. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:19:36 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20020226191936.35e66213.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1323.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014747977 48629 194.134.213.49 (26 Feb 2002 18:26:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:26:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102737 On 25 Feb 2002 19:27:42 GMT ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: HWW> "Bill Todd" (billtodd@metrocast.net) writes: HWW> > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message HWW> HWW> [a lot of stuff about carbon] HWW> HWW> Suggestion: you two each write a carbon cycle simulation. I think we're still discussing what needs to go into the simulation :) -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 26 Feb 2002 18:29:36 GMT Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-202-73.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1014748176 news.dial.pipex.com 236 62.190.202.73 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!195.129.110.18.MISMATCH!bnewspeer00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed02.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102657 On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:47:26 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >"Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote: >> >> "Bill Todd" (billtodd@metrocast.net) writes: >> > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message >> >> [a lot of stuff about carbon] >> >> Suggestion: you two each write a carbon cycle simulation. >> Run it on the simulated CDC 6600 _or_ a simulated 360/91 >> (this is a.f.c after all), and report back in, say, six >> months when the results are in. >> >One word: "Tokamak". That is what we need: tokamaks. Tokamaks >are nuclear *fusion" reactors. They work by combining hydrogen >atoms to make hellium. (Hellium is inert and is *not* notably >harmful to life on earth.) One tokamak could generate a *huge* >amount of electrical power!!! And they are *clean*...they >produce little ambient radiation. > >Why do electric companies *not* embrace the tokamak??? Because >it would make electricity *cheap*, and the electric companies >could *not* screw us consumers to the wall with their prices!!! Such work is still proceeding here in Europe, mainly in the UK at JET (Joint European Torus) in Oxfordshire. The US Congress may have pulled the plug on the US effort, but other people are still working on it. "Limitless nuclear fusion power is just 40 years away - and it always will be." as the saying goes... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 26 Feb 2002 18:58:43 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226191936.35e66213.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014749923 4677 134.117.136.30 (26 Feb 2002 18:58:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Feb 2002 18:58:43 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102707 Steve O'Hara-Smith (steveo@eircom.net) writes: > On 25 Feb 2002 19:27:42 GMT > ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: > > HWW> Suggestion: you two each write a carbon cycle simulation. > > I think we're still discussing what needs to go into the simulation :) No no no - you each go into separate rooms, no further talking! Then, when the final printouts are finiished, you may argue about the programming. PS Extra points for using PL/I. ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:08:14 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 22 Message-ID: <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1323.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014775267 82148 194.134.213.49 (27 Feb 2002 02:01:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:01:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-x2.support.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102744 On Tue, 26 Feb 02 10:01:45 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> There were times, when I was using the development JC> system, when the OS wouldn't latch onto a bad spot. So I'd JC> just rename the file to FILE.BAD, and leave a note on TW's Hmm, I used to do that on MP/M machines. I'm pretty sure I picked up the habit and the name somewhere rather than originating it independently. There's something traditional about that FILE.BAD name. JC> desk pointing at it. He'ld come in the next morning and JC> "fix" the disk and the bug that didn't happen. Then this would get done much later (when the machine could be taken down). -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> <1878.822T2698T5595855@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 31 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:19:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.156 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014758386 12.90.169.156 (Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:19:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:19:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102633 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com > (CBFalconer) writes: > ... snip ... > > >While fusion may be a silly way to boil water, at least it can > >boil water in a fairly controllable manner. The side effects, on > >the other hand, ..... > > > >I guess your other quote should be revised to read "Bush can make > >this country into what it once was, a torrid uninhabitable > >radioactive wasteland inhabited by oily cockroaches" > > They won't be oily. We'll have turned all the oil into smog. :-/ > > "Mr. President, we've determined that survival of the planet is > not economically feasible. Push the button now and have some > fun while you can." Has anyone ever noticed that under Republicans we get amused by Enron, Savings and Loan, Watergate, Irangate, etc. while the Democrats seem to give us Monicagates and attack rabbits. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:38:23 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-200-210.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1014759503 26665 213.122.200.210 (26 Feb 2002 21:38:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:38:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102729 Stan Barr wrote in message news:slrna7mml7.e4u.stanb@citadel.metropolis.local... [SNIP] > Such work is still proceeding here in Europe, mainly in the UK at > JET (Joint European Torus) in Oxfordshire. The US Congress may > have pulled the plug on the US effort, but other people are still > working on it. Wow, I thought JET had snuffed it some years ago... Or was it that they were decommissioning the original testbed and whacking a new one in... Good news though... Glad someone's having fun with fusion which doesn't involve blowing perfectly good wilderness up. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: J Ahlstrom Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:12:12 -0800 Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. Message-ID: <3C7C245C.B45F90CE@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache-Post-Path: sj-nntpcache-3!unknown@171.69.75.70 X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102635 Charles Richmond wrote: > > One word: "Tokamak". That is what we need: tokamaks. Tokamaks > are nuclear *fusion" reactors. They work by combining hydrogen > atoms to make hellium. (Hellium is inert and is *not* notably > harmful to life on earth.) One tokamak could generate a *huge* > amount of electrical power!!! And they are *clean*...they > produce little ambient radiation. > > Why do electric companies *not* embrace the tokamak??? Because > it would make electricity *cheap*, and the electric companies > could *not* screw us consumers to the wall with their prices!!! > > -- > +-------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Charles and Francis Richmond | > +-------------------------------------------------------------+ "Too cheap to meter?" Maybe not. My electric bill bills the generation of electricity at about 30% (I'll dig one out with the correct number) of the bill. They would be just as able to screw us if generating costs approached zero. JKA -- If we want to not become {insert big behemoth company here} maybe we should stop hiring our managers and VPs from there. J Berringer ###### From: Gordon Gibson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:20:53 +0000 Message-ID: <7n8o7u0o6mpuj13ckugmf5ne0bh240kfs6@4ax.com> References: <3c66c694$0$32768$3b214f66@news.univie.ac.at> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net (please include full headers) X-Trace: 460ae4608611380631208308a865061877198a608ae12854d9842b753c7c2666 NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:20:54 GMT Lines: 43 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!eurus Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102769 On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:24:53 -0700, Brian Inglis wrote: >At least business cases were prepared and evaluated carefully, >and the returns calculated and checked that they were achieved. >I am not sure that many businesses get any measurable benefit >from the PCs strewn around companies like calculators used to be. >I suspect the loss of productivity is one reason for the visible >decline in service provided by and internal to most businesses. >And that is probably attributable to the length of time to >generate usable input and produce pretty output rather than just >use a canned system to do the guts of a job. >Once again the problem is management: lack of evaluation of the >methods used, lack of training with systems, high learning curve >for many clerical staff, lack of understanding of the business by >anyone involved with the systems, lack of understanding of the >systems by anyone in the business, and lack of measurement of >benefits expected or achieved. >In the old days, these failures would be very visible and result >in firings and lawsuits; nowadays, they just cut into every >department's bottom line, and eventually result in asset selloffs >and staff layoffs, as management try to cover their asses and >keep their bonuses. I am extremely grateful for the measured and low-key replies to what must have seemed like a very provocative message. I also need to apologise for the fact that real life has got in the way of usenet for some time, and continues to do so. Serious stuff. I don't usually allow the flickering images images of everyday nonsense to interfere with my froups, but I have no alternative for the moment. It was (unbeknownst to me) the very worst time to push my tuppenny-worth into a group on which I have long lurked. I would like to pursue these issues - in a constructive way, at some later date. I was one of those poor souls whose needs were, fifteen or more years ago, too insignificant for the IT gods. I subsequently became one of those persons who stuck little computers in everyone's office and made them serve their needs. I am perfectly prepared to accept that much was lost in the process - indeed I was aware of it at the time. -- Regards, Gordon ###### From: Brian Inglis Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:49:23 -0700 Organization: Systematic Software Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <3C714C54.ADE97E02@hda.hydro.com> <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de> <41075a.3sg.ln@escape.shannon.net> <3c7ac1f2.271981548@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: h-207-148-132-204.dial.cadvision.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news3.cadvision.com 1014778164 32087 207.148.132.204 (27 Feb 2002 02:49:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cadvision.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:49:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!nntp.cadvision.com!207.228.64.17.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102788 On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:01:34 GMT, phil@notsaying.demon.co.uk (dawks) wrote: >On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:50:12 -0500, shannon@news.widomaker.com >(Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: > >>In article <3C723E68.7786A14F@gmx.de>, >>Bernd Paysan wrote: >> >>> >>> You forgot the catch-22. If you exceed expected performance, you are a >>> thread to your boss. Since the bonus *also* depends on your boss >>> speaking for you in a meeting of bosses, you won't get any, either >>> ("Who's that Dilbert guy?"). >> >>Don't forget, those timesheets must be in by Thursday evening or Friday >>morning, 3 days before you actually know your total hours for the week. >> > >There were other timecard issues as well. I remember working for >Raytheon during the dark DoD days ($500 hammer jobbies) when, IIRC, a >timesheet had to be hung on the cube at 4:30 on a Friday. Someone >would check at about 4:00 to see that it hadn't been hung up yet and >then someone would check at 4:45 to see that it had. There were >exemptions if you weren't in the office on a Friday or if you had a >"snow number". If you broke the rules more than two or three times you >had to attend an "attitude readjustment course". Software development >was shite, most Brits on getting their green cards went to work for >DEC up the road. Hardly surprising i suppose. At a PPOE the "rules" said that salaried staff should fill out their timesheets with the standard number of hours worked for each workday they were present, sign it, and hand it in by noon Friday, or some such BS. I understand that I bugged some managers, supervisors, secretaries and payroll types for a few years, as I always insisted in filling in the actual hours I worked each day, then on the last day signed, xeroxed, and passed on the timesheet when I finished work, as in previous jobs. When asked to submit it by the "rules", I pointed out that the law requires the actual hours worked be recorded, and got no response of any sort from any one. I believe some one whited out my numbers and wrote in the standard number for each day I worked, before it was processed. This ensured that if they laid me off with inadequate compensation, I had a case for additional compensation for overtime pay, and embarrassment if it went to court and the timesheets were produced, with my heavy printing of various hours under a layer of whiteout with the standard hours on top, or they found they couldn't produce any of my timesheets, while I had copies. A coworker at a PPOE had been laid off without much in the way of payment, sued for unpaid overtime, and failed because he had time off approximating his overtime. As I rarely took time off, I figured recording every hour might be useful in the future. Never needed to use the info, but if I didn't record it, I might have needed it, as Murphy can always be depended on. -- Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) fake address use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov spam traps ###### Message-ID: <3C7C5937.FD9F6608@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:03:47 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.173.199 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014782627 12.90.173.199 (Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:03:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:03:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102637 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Feb 02 10:01:45 GMT > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > JC> There were times, when I was using the development > JC> system, when the OS wouldn't latch onto a bad spot. So I'd > JC> just rename the file to FILE.BAD, and leave a note on TW's > > Hmm, I used to do that on MP/M machines. I'm pretty sure I > picked up the habit and the name somewhere rather than originating it > independently. There's something traditional about that FILE.BAD name. When the cost of floppies was significant (an 8" used to cost $10) CPM systems used a program that assigned all bad blocks to BLOCKS.BAD or something like that, and marked the file r/o to prevent erasure. Now you could use the disk. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com><20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net><20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net><20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226191934.604a4d88.steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 65 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <1qZe8.222926$d34.16256703@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:39:25 CST X-Trace: sv3-7eovS/hoss6N+ECkdWjDZKgO+x9mezJPuCL1wxo0c6LEyJ9Y9IKHYytmkWAOn1+cfIEWOtknOqmv0HI!Q/2bRbsq13gNlVYMgl4vDwSOrptFHfwAyKhjZTq8+B8uYgDr3IqA4nCroEqjX/8x+1epnKC0FEP0!y+IM+SW32YJT45sdKCoChcsa X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:39:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102641 I think I've had enough of dealing with someone who either doesn't make the effort to understand or is incapable of understanding what I'm saying. 'Bye. - bill "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20020226191934.604a4d88.steveo@eircom.net... > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:41:13 GMT > "Bill Todd" wrote: > > BT> No, that wasn't your point at all: it was that 'carbon is carbon', and the > BT> above refutes that (as you appear now to agree). > > Huh - in full my point was that carbon is carbon and that all that > matters is the rate at which it is returned to the atmosphere. It still is > and I still stand by it. > > BT> Yup. And since we have a choice to burn wood that would decompose anyway if > BT> we didn't, rather than to burn fossil fuel that would otherwise stay safely > BT> trapped underground, by choosing the first option we reduce the amount of > BT> additional CO2 released. > > I do not believe that it is possible to fuel the human race on > deadwood. > > BT> No, it's just making the explanation more complete. In a steady-state > BT> situation shifting the return is a one-time event, rather than the continual > BT> increase in release caused by burning fossil fuels. The time-shift is a > BT> small quantitative difference, whereas the fossil release is an on-going and > BT> qualitative one. > > Yes fine, if we assume a steady state then we get a steady state, > what a surprise! There is no indication that we *can* assume a steady state. > > If the rate of burning carbon exceeds the rate of capture the > concentration of CO2 will go up, if it does not it will not. Which carbon > is burnt matters not at all, what matters is how fast it is burned and how > fast it is captured. You seem to believe that by choosing to burn recently > captured carbon the rates will magically balance - I do not see the magic > that makes this happen, it isn't there. > > The win in using dead wood is that we get to use the energy of > decomposition, the loss is that we have to collect the dead wood. In the > long run it may be necessary to compensate for the absence of the rotting > wood (fertilisers perhaps) and bang goes the energy win. > > -- > C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors > The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun > You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: > | http://www.sohara.org/ > ###### Message-ID: <3C7CBEDE.FB9E2200@netimage.dk> From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=F8yer?= Kristiansen Organization: NetImage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226191934.604a4d88.steveo@eircom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.netimage.dk X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.netimage.dk Date: 27 Feb 2002 12:09:50 +0100 X-Trace: news.wineasy.se 1014808190 gate.netimage.dk (27 Feb 2002 12:09:50 +0100) Lines: 23 X-Complaints-To: abuse@wineasy.se Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!wanadoo.fr!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!213.131.157.171!wineasy!newsfeed1.wineasy.se!news.sto.telegate.se!news.wineasy.se Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102647 Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > If the rate of burning carbon exceeds the rate of capture the > concentration of CO2 will go up, if it does not it will not. Which carbon > is burnt matters not at all, what matters is how fast it is burned and how > fast it is captured. You seem to believe that by choosing to burn recently > captured carbon the rates will magically balance - I do not see the magic > that makes this happen, it isn't there. The whole idea of burning wood (or bio-carbon) instead of fossile fuels to reduce carbon dioxide emissions hinges on a replenishment of the burned wood by cultivating *vast* forests. In which case the atmosphere should be in a carbon dioxide equilibrium. But we are talking continent-size forests here (ie. not feasable) Cheers Martin -- Net Image ApS Vesterbro 21E 9000 Aalborg TLF: 70262614 FAX: 70262615 ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 27 Feb 2002 13:02:11 GMT Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: usercb59.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1014814931 news.dial.pipex.com 8513 62.188.150.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!amsnews01.chello.com!cleanfeed.casema.net!leda.casema.net!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed03.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewspost00.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102666 On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:38:23 +0000 (UTC), Rupert Pigott wrote: >Stan Barr wrote in message >news:slrna7mml7.e4u.stanb@citadel.metropolis.local... >[SNIP] > >> Such work is still proceeding here in Europe, mainly in the UK at >> JET (Joint European Torus) in Oxfordshire. The US Congress may >> have pulled the plug on the US effort, but other people are still >> working on it. > >Wow, I thought JET had snuffed it some years ago... Or was >it that they were decommissioning the original testbed and >whacking a new one in... > >Good news though... Glad someone's having fun with fusion >which doesn't involve blowing perfectly good wilderness up. Yes, they've just announced a big improvement in performance and have now reached 300 million degrees C in the centre of the plasma, well over the temperature needed to sustain fusion...it's getting closer.... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226191934.604a4d88.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7CBEDE.FB9E2200@netimage.dk> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 41 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:46:25 CST X-Trace: sv3-JfBCTb1Ap00xx+zsg/cFuskcBnrkHRyRjZN2Yxp8rXrUu/J62RyNYj7AjVA51v4/4pVVpweeqgDvURt!d0qzoFlVSVmT3nEUsOS50VDYfZVGmwNEZQyG4CEVHaBFhtKmHyOCvmZ4tZpuOeik6YDfH0xkcCrA!IMxflBBGF1xW0p+uENlu8sox X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:46:25 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!freenix!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102643 "Martin Høyer Kristiansen" wrote in message news:3C7CBEDE.FB9E2200@netimage.dk... > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > If the rate of burning carbon exceeds the rate of capture the > > concentration of CO2 will go up, if it does not it will not. Which carbon > > is burnt matters not at all, what matters is how fast it is burned and how > > fast it is captured. You seem to believe that by choosing to burn recently > > captured carbon the rates will magically balance - I do not see the magic > > that makes this happen, it isn't there. > > The whole idea of burning wood (or bio-carbon) instead of fossile fuels > to reduce carbon dioxide emissions hinges on a replenishment of the > burned wood by cultivating *vast* forests. Not really. As long as *any* replenishment occurs (as it already does - timber companies may be as short-term-focused as the rest of the business world, but even they can see the need for *some* provision for their future) *or* the burned wood comes from trees that would have been cut anyway and otherwise discarded (which is certainly the case where I live, since a lot of trees cut when a lot is 'developed' aren't useful for anything else) there's a net reduction in total atmospheric CO2 compared with burning fossil fuel instead. In which case the atmosphere > should be in a carbon dioxide equilibrium. But we are talking > continent-size forests here (ie. not feasable). It may not be feasible to establish a true CO2 equilibrium, but it's *eminently* feasible to reduce the rate of increase (and thus forestall problems until such time as other measures such as conservation and alternative energy can *make* a true equilibrium feasible). - bill ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:06:12 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102703 In article <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: > One word: "Tokamak". That is what we need: tokamaks. Tokamaks > are nuclear *fusion" reactors. They work by combining hydrogen > atoms to make hellium. (Hellium is inert and is *not* notably > harmful to life on earth.) One tokamak could generate a *huge* > amount of electrical power!!! And they are *clean*...they > produce little ambient radiation. > > Why do electric companies *not* embrace the tokamak??? Because > it would make electricity *cheap*, and the electric companies > could *not* screw us consumers to the wall with their prices!!! A tokamak was an early form of accelerator though, and the only fusion they did was on a very small scale. They also used up orders of magnitude more power than they ever could generate. Even specific fusion reactor research in Japan and the US is still using more power than they generate, sometimes by a huge margin (like putting in 10MW and getting back 1MW). The idea is that one day they'll hit the right formula and it will start producing energy without input. Catalyze the fusion reaction and then you have a long-term controlled reaction just like your own personal star. There is a huge downside to fusion power though, one that a few sci-fi authors have wrote about: excessive power use. With power as cheap as fusion could make it, people will likely greatly increase their usage. Imagine all of the third world suddenly able to afford air conditioning. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### Message-ID: <3C7D2877.31044E8E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> <1878.822T2698T5595855@sky.bus.com> <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1014828115 12.237.69.87 (Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:41:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:41:55 GMT Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:41:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102779 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com>, > CBFalconer wrote: > >Charlie Gibbs wrote: > >> > >> In article <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com > >> (CBFalconer) writes: > >> > >.... snip ... > >> > >> >While fusion may be a silly way to boil water, at least it can > >> >boil water in a fairly controllable manner. The side effects, on > >> >the other hand, ..... > >> > > >> >I guess your other quote should be revised to read "Bush can make > >> >this country into what it once was, a torrid uninhabitable > >> >radioactive wasteland inhabited by oily cockroaches" > >> > >> They won't be oily. We'll have turned all the oil into smog. :-/ > >> > >> "Mr. President, we've determined that survival of the planet is > >> not economically feasible. Push the button now and have some > >> fun while you can." > > > >Has anyone ever noticed that under Republicans we get amused by > >Enron, Savings and Loan, Watergate, Irangate, etc. while the > >Democrats seem to give us Monicagates and attack rabbits. > > > > They use broads and hares to distract people from their Enrons. > And the S&L was produced by Democrats....for that matter, so > was Enron. > Not. S&L was a result of *Reagan* deregulating the banks. And Republicans (including the President, who needs a special procecuter) got *more* money and exerted *more* influence for Enron than the Democrats... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Reply-To: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <1bvgct2xtp.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:43:51 -0500 Lines: 25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c7d0cc9_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1014828233 204.250.0.238 (27 Feb 2002 11:43:53 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!zur.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102648 "David Given" wrote in message news:nq8d5a.vl5.ln@172.16.100.88... > In article , > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > [...] > > I just gave up one day after about 4 calls in a single day, and I think > > I have answered my phone about 3 times in the last 4 years. > > We've got this thing in the UK called the Telephone Preference Service. > > http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tpsr/html/default.asp > > (Not to be confused with the DMA's Telephone Preference Service, which as > far as I can tell does nothing.) > > Telemarketers in the UK are required to block calls to all people who have > registered their numbers with the TPS. There are hefty fines for violating > it. Since I registered last year, I have received one telemarketer call > --- from the US. State by State, this is coming to the U.S., too... -dq ###### Message-ID: <3C7D152E.871C68A9@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:21:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.174.225 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1014830515 12.90.174.225 (Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:21:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:21:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.98.3.206!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102634 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > ... snip ... > > There is a huge downside to fusion power though, one that a few > sci-fi authors have wrote about: excessive power use. > > With power as cheap as fusion could make it, people will likely greatly > increase their usage. Imagine all of the third world suddenly able > to afford air conditioning. Already very obvious in places like NYC, where the ambient temperature is about 10 F. higher than the surrounding country, and due to excess power dissipation. In summer it is especially annoying. A watt saved during A/C season really represents about 4 watts, because of A/C efficiencies. Thus the economies of compact fluorescents are highly understated. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 27 Feb 2002 18:42:07 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1014835327 25425 134.117.136.30 (27 Feb 2002 18:42:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Feb 2002 18:42:07 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!news.kjsl.com!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102723 Charles Shannon Hendrix (shannon@news.widomaker.com) writes: > ... > With power as cheap as fusion could make it, people will likely greatly > increase their usage. Imagine all of the third world suddenly able > to afford air conditioning. Gorillas, chimps, lemurs, babboons will join the Naked Apes by shedding? ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 27 Feb 02 11:22:32 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <1000.823T1620T6825361@sky.bus.com> References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-291.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102821 In article shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: >There is a huge downside to fusion power though, one that a few >sci-fi authors have wrote about: excessive power use. > >With power as cheap as fusion could make it, people will likely greatly >increase their usage. Imagine all of the third world suddenly able >to afford air conditioning. For a here-and-now analogy, consider the effects of all the computer power which is now available. Yes, people have greatly increased their usage. Of course, since most of it is sucked up by Windoze, productivity gains have lagged far behind. It's just another case of the credo "Abundance justifies waste", which unfortunately seems to be part of the human condition. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 28 Feb 02 09:33:28 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> <1878.822T2698T5595855@sky.bus.com> <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com> <3C7D2877.31044E8E@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZir3wkRwAjEpnZXxgIbcHkotOQlu3aXfnNi8ckxHpiRQt3MEQOebce X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2002 11:49:41 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-106 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102846 In article <3C7D2877.31044E8E@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com>, >> CBFalconer wrote: >> >Charlie Gibbs wrote: >> >> >> >> In article <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> cbfalconer@yahoo.com >> >> (CBFalconer) writes: >> >> >> >.... snip ... >> >> >> >> >While fusion may be a silly way to boil water, at least it can >> >> >boil water in a fairly controllable manner. The side effects, on >> >> >the other hand, ..... >> >> > >> >> >I guess your other quote should be revised to read "Bush can make >> >> >this country into what it once was, a torrid uninhabitable >> >> >radioactive wasteland inhabited by oily cockroaches" >> >> >> >> They won't be oily. We'll have turned all the oil into smog. :-/ >> >> >> >> "Mr. President, we've determined that survival of the planet is >> >> not economically feasible. Push the button now and have some >> >> fun while you can." >> > >> >Has anyone ever noticed that under Republicans we get amused by >> >Enron, Savings and Loan, Watergate, Irangate, etc. while the >> >Democrats seem to give us Monicagates and attack rabbits. >> > >> >> They use broads and hares to distract people from their Enrons. >> And the S&L was produced by Democrats....for that matter, so >> was Enron. >> >Not. S&L was a result of *Reagan* deregulating the banks. Nope. The half-assed deregulation (that caused the S&Ls to not have to account for [something...can't remember]) was enacted by _Congress_ when Carter was still around. Now Congress was not a Republican majority. > ..And >Republicans (including the President, who needs a special >procecuter) got *more* money and exerted *more* influence for >Enron than the Democrats... > Look. You have to evaluate the timing. When did those subsidiaries get created? That's when the hoodwinking began. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 28 Feb 02 10:01:11 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net> <20020227210851.1b2fc687.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYkIz5Oz1CLgg8lYOvpiwPcLFjKPKLJCHxILPxHFPfaZiIQ0hZD9ngX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2002 12:17:24 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-106 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102842 In article <20020227210851.1b2fc687.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Wed, 27 Feb 02 09:04:05 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >JC> In article <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net>, >JC> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >JC> When I was irritated, the filename would be FUCKED.UP. That's when > > I'd rarely have gotten away with that one - see below > >JC> TW knew he should work on fixing it first rather than any other >JC> stuff. > > > >JC> > Then this would get done much later (when the machine could be >JC> >taken down). >JC> > >JC> Yup. Our machines were taken down every night since TW and JMF > > It was usually a customers machine and taking it down meant >fitting in with when they weren't using it - hence the much later :) Sure. However, if the file contained unreproducible bits that the customer needed to make his daily run, you would have been chained to that machine ;-). >When it was one of our development machines the chances of getting a >round tuit to fix the bad file could get remote, those boxes tended to >be busy with a queue for the 'dead' time. Just to clarify a point. I did not drop a card on TW's desk if I didn't think the bad file was important. 1. If I could crash the system accessing the file, I dropped a note; 2. If those were absolutely the only bits in the world and I needed them, I'd drop a note with promises of estcasy(sp?). However, the latter didn't happen very much. When your computing environment is operating system development, have two-four backups is second nature. > >JC> and others needed stand-alone time. We (TOPS-10) did >JC> not have the luxury of having a complete machine available for >JC> stand-alone time during daylight hours. > > Somehow it always seems to be the under-resourced that get things >done. Strange world! > It's not strange at all. Limited resources produce quality and efficiency. People learn very quickly how to define the small stuff and how not to sweat it. /BAH ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:08:51 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 36 Message-ID: <20020227210851.1b2fc687.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: i0871.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014845824 96495 194.134.211.107 (27 Feb 2002 21:37:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:37:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102875 On Wed, 27 Feb 02 09:04:05 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> In article <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net>, JC> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: JC> When I was irritated, the filename would be FUCKED.UP. That's when I'd rarely have gotten away with that one - see below JC> TW knew he should work on fixing it first rather than any other JC> stuff. JC> > Then this would get done much later (when the machine could be JC> >taken down). JC> > JC> Yup. Our machines were taken down every night since TW and JMF It was usually a customers machine and taking it down meant fitting in with when they weren't using it - hence the much later :) When it was one of our development machines the chances of getting a round tuit to fix the bad file could get remote, those boxes tended to be busy with a queue for the 'dead' time. JC> and others needed stand-alone time. We (TOPS-10) did JC> not have the luxury of having a complete machine available for JC> stand-alone time during daylight hours. Somehow it always seems to be the under-resourced that get things done. Strange world! -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:21:09 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 17 Message-ID: <20020227212109.47275440.steveo@eircom.net> References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226191934.604a4d88.steveo@eircom.net> <1qZe8.222926$d34.16256703@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: i0871.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014845825 96495 194.134.211.107 (27 Feb 2002 21:37:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:37:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102870 On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:39:25 GMT "Bill Todd" wrote: BT> I think I've had enough of dealing with someone who either doesn't make the BT> effort to understand or is incapable of understanding what I'm saying. I understand you just fine, I disagree with your premises. BT> 'Bye. As you wish. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Message-ID: <3C7D84C1.4A808F09@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <1000.823T1620T6825361@sky.bus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.237.69.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: sccrnsc01 1014851742 12.237.69.87 (Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:15:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:15:42 GMT Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:15:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!nerim.net!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!sccrnsc01.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102889 Charlie Gibbs wrote: > > In article shannon@news.widomaker.com > (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > > >There is a huge downside to fusion power though, one that a few > >sci-fi authors have wrote about: excessive power use. > > > >With power as cheap as fusion could make it, people will likely greatly > >increase their usage. Imagine all of the third world suddenly able > >to afford air conditioning. > > For a here-and-now analogy, consider the effects of all the computer > power which is now available. Yes, people have greatly increased > their usage. Of course, since most of it is sucked up by Windoze, > productivity gains have lagged far behind. > For "sucked up by Windoze" read "pissed out the window". > > It's just another case of the credo "Abundance justifies waste", > which unfortunately seems to be part of the human condition. > The U.S. was built on waste. *Not* to waste is un-American!!! Why, after WWII the U.S. dumped more tanks and jeeps and supplies in the ocean than most countries will ever have. If you refuse to trash out your current car, how will the car companies sell you a *new* one??? If you do *not* waste three times as much food as you eat, there will be a farm crisis. (And heaven knows that the U.S. farmers are getting enough subsidies now...after all, the milk price supports keeps a gallon of milk costing $2.) Unfortunately, we as consumers can *not* consume enough to keep the economy going...we *have* to waste!!! It is our duty and our "God-given" right!!! Like President Bush said, "The hell you don't want to go anywhere!!! Get on that plane and *fly*!!!" -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Gordon Gibson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:19:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1br8nh2xql.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@clara.net (please include full headers) X-Trace: 2800642905808b61f460701e31618841ca0a8023437ce3e8162b6c043c7d7788 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:19:20 GMT Lines: 34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!iapetus Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102897 On 19 Feb 2002 10:21:54 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >Keith R. Williams writes: >> > >> > Tactics that have worked for me : >> > >> > "Sorry, I just lost my job" >> > >> > "Sorry, we gave all our charitable donations to the Red Cross". >> >> A friend has a routine with telemarketers who know his name ("is Mr. X >> at home"). He tells them that "This is Mr. X's brother and that Mr. X >> just passed away this morning." "How dare you be so insensitive to call >> at such a time." > >In what sense do these tactics ``work'' any better than just saying no? Nothing works better than "NO". But it isn't really enough, is it? Payback helps - you feel so much better. "My name is Stacey, and I'm calling on behalf of Fragile Window Company. Do you have double-glazing?" "Excuse me for a second, I have something on the stove." Lay the telephone down carefully. Make a cup of coffee and drink it. Take the dog out. Get the laundry out of the drier and match your socks. Hang up. -- Regards, Gordon ###### From: Floyd Davidson Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 27 Feb 2002 19:04:59 -0900 Organization: __________ Lines: 38 Sender: floyd@barrow.com Message-ID: <87it8is13o.fld@barrow.com> References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1br8nh2xql.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-383.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: gnus 5.8.3/XEmacs 21.1.9/Linux Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102819 Gordon Gibson wrote: >Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > >"My name is Stacey, and I'm calling on behalf of Fragile Window >Company. Do you have double-glazing?" > >"Excuse me for a second, I have something on the stove." > >Lay the telephone down carefully. Make a cup of coffee and drink it. >Take the dog out. Get the laundry out of the drier and match your >socks. Hang up. That's just rude. Shame on you. Here is what I do: "My name is Stacey, and I'm calling on behalf of Fragile Window Company. Do you have double-glazing?" "Hello Stacey, my name is Floyd and I am in the Telephone Consultation business. My rates are $120 per hour with a minimum of 4 hours per week. If you would like to continue this conversation I will need your name, a billing address, and your personal credit card number along with the expiration date. Do you wish to continue?" That can really confuse people. But I did have one rather sharp young lady who understood *exactly*, she just broke up laughing, said 4it was pretty good and we hung up. Most folks go "Huh?" or something to that effect, so I point out they called me for a reason and I assume they need help, do they really think I'm going to provide it for free? What's your credit card number??? -- Floyd L. Davidson Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <1000.823T1620T6825361@sky.bus.com> <3C7D84C1.4A808F09@ev1.net> From: Dowe Keller Date: 27 Feb 2002 20:24:16 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.81 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.81 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1014873900 209.234.196.81 (27 Feb 2002 21:25:00 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102844 Charles Richmond writes: > The U.S. was built on waste. *Not* to waste is un-American!!! > Why, after WWII the U.S. dumped more tanks and jeeps and supplies > in the ocean than most countries will ever have. If you refuse to > trash out your current car, how will the car companies sell you > a *new* one??? If you do *not* waste three times as much food as > you eat, there will be a farm crisis. (And heaven knows that the > U.S. farmers are getting enough subsidies now...after all, the > milk price supports keeps a gallon of milk costing $2.) That reminds me of _Catch_22_. I can't quote the passage word for word, but something about some farmer who was very successful at not growing more than any of the surrounding farmers were not growing (That was one mind blowing book). -- dowe@sierratel.com The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison ###### From: eal@etek.chalmers.se (Andreas Långström) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: 28 Feb 2002 15:14:16 GMT Organization: Chalmers University of Technology Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <1000.823T1620T6825361@sky.bus.com> <3C7D84C1.4A808F09@ev1.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hortensia.etek.chalmers.se X-Trace: nyheter.chalmers.se 1014909256 21984 129.16.32.92 (28 Feb 2002 15:14:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@chalmers.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Feb 2002 15:14:16 GMT X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test72 (19 April 1999) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.net.uni-c.dk!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102864 Dowe Keller wrote: >Charles Richmond writes: > >> The U.S. was built on waste. *Not* to waste is un-American!!! > >That reminds me of _Catch_22_. I can't quote the passage word for >word, but something about some farmer who was very successful at not >growing more than any of the surrounding >farmers were not growing (That was one mind blowing book). Alfalfa. /Andreas ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:46:15 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <3C7D152E.871C68A9@yahoo.com> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102911 In article <3C7D152E.871C68A9@yahoo.com>, CBFalconer wrote: > Already very obvious in places like NYC, where the ambient > temperature is about 10 F. higher than the surrounding country, > and due to excess power dissipation. In summer it is especially > annoying. Yep, though I hear a lot of that is the mirrored buildings. In some cities, mirrored buildings are now illegal due to the increases in heat. Now just imagine ever city in the world becoming a power user like NYC, even villages in Africa. > A watt saved during A/C season really represents about 4 watts, > because of A/C efficiencies. Thus the economies of compact > fluorescents are highly understated. How about the economies of turning the oscillating nightmares off completely? It's amazing how much power people waste using about 10 times the amount of light the human eye actually needs. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 02 Mar 02 10:30:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <20020301000913.05b676ef.steveo@eircom.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYHx5lQsXfwHc1eMUyWzkgSgmPM5JafzjZ/U9vYva7rpQVbsgfR5G2h X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Mar 2002 12:47:12 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!208-59-181-8 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102964 In article <20020301000913.05b676ef.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >On Thu, 28 Feb 02 10:01:11 GMT >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >JC> > Somehow it always seems to be the under-resourced that get things >JC> >done. Strange world! >JC> > >JC> It's not strange at all. Limited resources produce quality and >JC> efficiency. People learn very quickly how to define the small stuff >JC> and how not to sweat it. > > When you put it like that it makes sense, now how do you explain >this to a PHB ? You have to begin training them on their/your very first day on the job. The ones we didn't do this with, made very big messes. > ..OTOH perhaps this should not be done, at one place I have >been there was an apparent policy that projects should deliver visible and >usable results *before* any noticable resources could be used on them. Sure. It's called a dry run. JMF usually spent about three months on studying stuff like that. What do you think developers do when the code is in field test and they're not allowed to make any changes but bug fixes? > ..Once >it was a successful product (internal usually) it could get all the support >and people and money it wanted. > Well, not all of the support and people that's wanted. PHB's try to get lots more than required just so they can get what's required. It's called budget negotiation. Our cost center managers always added 10% so that, when the axe drops dictating that costs have to be cut by 10%, the project can still be done. Remember we were the people who generated the core of the company's profitable business, even though the bookkeeping claimed our product line lost money. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:04:19 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <1000.823T1620T6825361@sky.bus.com> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102983 In article <1000.823T1620T6825361@sky.bus.com>, Charlie Gibbs wrote: > For a here-and-now analogy, consider the effects of all the computer > power which is now available. Yes, people have greatly increased > their usage. Of course, since most of it is sucked up by Windoze, > productivity gains have lagged far behind. It isn't just Windows either. A study we had to read in college said that banks are less efficient today than they were in the late 50s and early 60s by as much as 6 times. I remember seeing a picture of a single floor in a bank with 2500 workers at desks, and army of clerks, who processed accounts for the bank customers. They said that despite the manual process, those 2500 people were doing more work than the same 2500 people today because of gross inefficiencies in computer usage, and a massive increase in "services" offered, most of which are more annoying and confusing than useful. I didn't used to believe that, but now that I've actually worked in IT at a bank, I think I do. I know that my department had 200 people, and if I could have picked my own team, I could have gotten the work done with 10 to 20. > It's just another case of the credo "Abundance justifies waste", > which unfortunately seems to be part of the human condition. It would be OK if we also created technology to nullify the usage, but it seems we never do, or at least we wait until it's nearly too late. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:09:13 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 42 Message-ID: <20020301000913.05b676ef.steveo@eircom.net> References: <20020225080409.20de4d25.steveo@eircom.net> <20020226200814.4d62c955.steveo@eircom.net> <20020227210851.1b2fc687.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: i1964.vwr.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1014940078 61816 194.134.215.180 (28 Feb 2002 23:47:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:47:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102998 On Thu, 28 Feb 02 10:01:11 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: JC> Sure. However, if the file contained unreproducible bits that the JC> customer needed to make his daily run, you would have been chained JC> to that machine ;-). Yep - I got pretty good at retrieving those bits :) JC> Just to clarify a point. I did not drop a card on TW's desk if Clear. JC> didn't happen very much. When your computing environment is JC> operating system development, have two-four backups is second nature. One of the nicest things about developing CP/N was that it was done on a *totally different* system. A technique I later wound up carrying to extremes with a table driven debugging tool (pick your system) that talked by RS232 to any one of a number of games consoles, ISTR the CP1610 (in a Mattel product) as being a particularly nasty thing to write a debugger for because there was no one word breakpoint implementation available. JC> > Somehow it always seems to be the under-resourced that get things JC> >done. Strange world! JC> > JC> It's not strange at all. Limited resources produce quality and JC> efficiency. People learn very quickly how to define the small stuff JC> and how not to sweat it. When you put it like that it makes sense, now how do you explain this to a PHB ? OTOH perhaps this should not be done, at one place I have been there was an apparent policy that projects should deliver visible and usable results *before* any noticable resources could be used on them. Once it was a successful product (internal usually) it could get all the support and people and money it wanted. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: William Hamblen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:03:19 -0600 Organization: Utterly Disorganized Message-ID: Reply-To: william.hamblen@nashville.com Cancel-Lock: sha1:yMvdq2mdFUZmgLoWU9rkGTrnqzc= References: <20020225183116.0813087d.steveo@eircom.net> <3C7B2173.B7934AEF@ev1.net> <3C7B117C.F893374B@yahoo.com> <1878.822T2698T5595855@sky.bus.com> <3C7BFAD3.FAB9A17@yahoo.com> <3C7D2877.31044E8E@ev1.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NFilter: 1.2.0 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103015 On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:41:55 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >Not. S&L was a result of *Reagan* deregulating the banks. And >Republicans (including the President, who needs a special >procecuter) got *more* money and exerted *more* influence for >Enron than the Democrats... The Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act of 1980, which did the deregulating. was signed by then-President Jimmy Carter. ###### From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:59:41 -0800 Organization: None Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: handma2.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1015023580 106 17.202.32.152 (1 Mar 2002 22:59:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Mar 2002 22:59:40 GMT X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!Q.T.Honey!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!handma2.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102994 In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: > "Bill Todd" writes: > > Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise locked-in fossil > > carbon is correct but doesn't directly address your argument that carbon is > > carbon. The above does. If current vegetation were being buried and > > fossilized at the same rate we dig and pump fossil fuel your argument would > > hold water, but such is not the case at all. > > but does that mean that all this fossil fuel burning is actually > restoring the natural earth's ecological balanace ... since those > elements had been unnaturally(?) removed from the normal ecology > ... and that burning all fossil fuel over a few tens of years > (depleting a non-renewable resource) is an accelerated attempt to > restore all those resources to the standard ecology (fossilized > material is unnatural state and so it is our duty to restore it to > normal ecology as quickly as possible). First of all, what is "natural". The earth is no more a system with a well-defined stable point than the modern US economy (with never-ending innovation) has a well-defined stable point. The issue about releasing CO2 and the resultant green house effect is not an issue of "life as we know it will end" or even "humanity will be wiped out". The issue is that the resultant disruptions (in parrticular rising sea levels) will be immensely disruptive economically. Even more serious may well be the second-order effects---most of those who will suffer the most from rising sea-levels will be the poor, while those responsible for the rise (ie especially the US) seem unlikely to be willing to help much, or even accept responsibility. This will lead to immense worldwide hatred of the US (more so than ever before, justified hatred and thus wider-spread) along with a substantial contingent of those in the US, both malcontents and those genuinely angry at what has happened, who will sympathize with this anger. All this is a recipe for pretty extreme terrorism. Maynard > note that there have been somewhat similar thread in > comp.society.futures. random pieces: > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#6 > http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#20 > > there was posting today claiming that various oil extraction is now > approaching (or has crossed) negative energy expenditure (i.e. energy > needed to extract the oil is greater than the energy available in the > oil extracted); somewhat orthogonal to whether or not all such fossil > resources need to be restored to standard ecological balance. > > -- > Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Bill Todd" Newsgroups: comp.arch,alt.folklore.computers References: <96c45a.dmv.ln@alto.codegen.com> <20020223092835.27b1f492.steveo@eircom.net> <20020224085014.579d5330.steveo@eircom.net> Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Lines: 55 Organization: maybe X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 18:03:34 CST X-Trace: sv3-qyAxb3UzLljP2o0biJmYxuwhcJV5WOPDh5JQY6mOiLX9qj/UD3Ae4OaVuNPZ6scbvtBl7NC74zlxj5X!iYsCFZEp/3NPtEzQ+vz7FyETDCdVZHh0pyV4sM2KUWGHBBiVTe0Q+KMvVNWOLCQtJ/O2MLVKF/Jh!I2JNfMjqHDel+3eWvPc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:03:34 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.mailgate.org!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103030 "Maynard Handley" wrote in message news:name99-0103021459410001@handma2.apple.com... > In article , Anne & Lynn Wheeler > wrote: > > > "Bill Todd" writes: > > > Stan's comment about the problem being release of otherwise locked-in fossil > > > carbon is correct but doesn't directly address your argument that carbon is > > > carbon. The above does. If current vegetation were being buried and > > > fossilized at the same rate we dig and pump fossil fuel your argument would > > > hold water, but such is not the case at all. > > > > but does that mean that all this fossil fuel burning is actually > > restoring the natural earth's ecological balanace ... since those > > elements had been unnaturally(?) removed from the normal ecology > > ... and that burning all fossil fuel over a few tens of years > > (depleting a non-renewable resource) is an accelerated attempt to > > restore all those resources to the standard ecology (fossilized > > material is unnatural state and so it is our duty to restore it to > > normal ecology as quickly as possible). > > First of all, what is "natural". The earth is no more a system with a > well-defined stable point than the modern US economy (with never-ending > innovation) has a well-defined stable point. > > The issue about releasing CO2 and the resultant green house effect is not > an issue of "life as we know it will end" or even "humanity will be wiped > out". The issue is that the resultant disruptions (in parrticular rising > sea levels) will be immensely disruptive economically. > Even more serious may well be the second-order effects---most of those who > will suffer the most from rising sea-levels will be the poor, while those > responsible for the rise (ie especially the US) seem unlikely to be > willing to help much, or even accept responsibility. This will lead to > immense worldwide hatred of the US (more so than ever before, justified > hatred and thus wider-spread) along with a substantial contingent of those > in the US, both malcontents and those genuinely angry at what has > happened, who will sympathize with this anger. All this is a recipe for > pretty extreme terrorism. That's an excellent and realistic description of the very possible down-sides of the situation. And while it disturbs me that in the process the Earth *will* indeed likely lose some of its more marginal species, the fact that humanity won't be wiped out but 'only' will suffer major disruptions (including a non-negligible thinning out of the world population) still seems sufficient reason for real concern even among non-tree-huggers. - bill ###### From: wiss@eelwing.arda (Jonas Wissting) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 15:10:54 +0100 Organization: Utfors AB Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <9tvt6uct3gdki7i48uvtdtjfrrblnmfdhl@4ax.com> <6u1yfhw51y.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: md4690c21.utfors.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: yggdrasil.utfors.se 1015510453 47 212.105.12.33 (7 Mar 2002 14:14:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@utfors.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 Mar 2002 14:14:13 GMT X-Newsreader: knews 1.0b.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!news.utfors.se!niniel.arda!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103289 In article <6u1yfhw51y.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin writes: ... >> I've considered writing a Linux task to scrub memory. The downside is >> that doing it in software will thrash the data cache. I wonder if it >> would be possible to disable data caching (L1 and L2) for a particular >> process, forcing all read accesses to go to main memory, without flushing >> the data cache contents? > > At what rate would this scrubber have to run? I would assume quite > low, as dual faults do not collect up that fast. > > So it could run just a small block of memory at each activation, so > the cache killing whould not be that spectacular relative to the > normal trashing around (cache working set changes). eelwing: 15:09 ~# time cat /proc/kcore > /dev/null 0.120u 2.420s 0:02.54 100.0% 0+0k 0+0io 94pf+0w eelwing: 15:09 ~# Will this do? run every 5minutes? Jonas -- http://wiss.unx.nu http://linux.unx.nu Another Glitch in the Call We don't need no indirection We don't need no flow control No data typing or declarations Did you leave the lists alone? Hey! Hacker! Leave those lists alone! Chorus: All in all, it's just a pure-LISP function call. All in all, it's just a pure-LISP function call. ###### Message-ID: <3C916772.17743971@bellsouth.net> From: "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" Reply-To: urjlew@bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? References: <3C6EDDF8.C5DD7715@ev1.net> <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1br8nh2xql.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <87it8is13o.fld@barrow.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 X-Complaints-To: abuse@usenetserver.com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:08:59 EST Organization: Bellsouth.Net Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 22:16:02 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!btnet-peer!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer1!btnet!newsfeeds-atl2!e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103846 Floyd Davidson wrote: > Gordon Gibson wrote: > >Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > > > >"My name is Stacey, and I'm calling on behalf of Fragile Window > >Company. Do you have double-glazing?" > > > >"Excuse me for a second, I have something on the stove." > > > >Lay the telephone down carefully. Make a cup of coffee and drink it. > >Take the dog out. Get the laundry out of the drier and match your > >socks. Hang up. > > That's just rude. Shame on you. Here is what I do: > > "My name is Stacey, and I'm calling on behalf of Fragile > Window Company. Do you have double-glazing?" > > "Hello Stacey, my name is Floyd and I am in the Telephone > Consultation business. My rates are $120 per hour with a > minimum of 4 hours per week. If you would like to continue > this conversation I will need your name, a billing address, > and your personal credit card number along with the > expiration date. > > Do you wish to continue?" > > That can really confuse people. But I did have one rather sharp > young lady who understood *exactly*, she just broke up laughing, > said 4it was pretty good and we hung up. > > Most folks go "Huh?" or something to that effect, so I point out > they called me for a reason and I assume they need help, do they > really think I'm going to provide it for free? What's your > credit card number??? > > -- > Floyd L. Davidson > Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@barrow.com Mr. Davidson. Do you really get telemarketing calls up there in Barrow Alaska? Please describe. :) ###### From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew? Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:43:06 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Rossum's Universal Robots Lines: 25 Message-ID: <3caa3e14.44583513@news.btopenworld.com> References: <3C7149EF.27D9734D@hda.hydro.com> <1303.814T661T7833566@sky.bus.com> <3C71B6AE.162E0916@yahoo.com> <878z9plw0a.fsf@tweety.mihalis.net> <1br8nh2xql.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <87it8is13o.fld@barrow.com> <3C916772.17743971@bellsouth.net> Reply-To: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-145-183.in-addr.btopenworld.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1016307786 11595 213.122.145.183 (16 Mar 2002 19:43:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:43:06 +0000 (UTC) X-No-Archive: yes X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-x2.support.nl!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:103925 There's a guy who has a web page (oh, search for it! I'll post it if nobody can find it). Anyway that's not all. That would be hardly notable. His phone number is one digit off from a very busy tech support number. The phone company wouldn't do anything for him, so he decided to take affirmative action. He fields the calls, and gives stupid advice, takes the piss out of lusers, and generally makes their mind into a living battleground. There are CDs available. It's interesting cos this guy *takes* prank calls instead of making them. Mmm wish my phone number was like that. Not least because I'd be making £1 a minute. You could try pretending you were tech support, Trading Standards, a hotshot lawyer, Santa or anything you like as a method for dealing with double glazing co's. It'd be good to record em on the computer too! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche)