From: "Philo" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Punch cards Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:49:45 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.250.193.74 X-Trace: 1013132806 news.twtelecom.net 27755 207.250.193.74 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!spool1.twtelecom.net!207.250.5.9.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101179 did you see today's (feb7th) NY Times Circuits section punch cards are still being used! a few companies thought it too expensive or unnecessary to modernize -- Philo website: www.plazaearth.com/philo ###### From: Tim Shoppa Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: 7 Feb 2002 18:35:45 -0800 Organization: Trailing-Edge Technologies Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-261.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.91 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!news.he.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101141 In article <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net>, "Philo" says... > >did you see today's (feb7th) NY Times >Circuits section > >punch cards are still being used! >a few companies thought it too expensive >or unnecessary to modernize I was interviewed by the author (Mr. Margulius) while he was preparing his article. I specialize in magnetic - not paper - media, so I was suitably not mentioned in the article, but our own (we don't see him as often here in a.f.c and a.s.pdp8 as much as we used to) Doug Jones was very appropriately prominent. The real win in the article is how it emphasized the solid value of data and code - whether it be on punched card or in some other form - and that such data *is not yet lost*. Excellent job, Mr. Margulius! Tim. ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:41:56 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <3C635714.9F577701@jkmicro.com> References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Thu Feb 7 22:38:01 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !Z]W61k-W5^&;t-FV&2)EYW!( (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news.airnews.net!cabal11.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101139 Tim Shoppa wrote: > > In article <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net>, "Philo" says... > > > >did you see today's (feb7th) NY Times > >Circuits section > > > >punch cards are still being used! > >a few companies thought it too expensive > >or unnecessary to modernize > > I was interviewed by the author (Mr. Margulius) while he was > preparing his article. I specialize in magnetic - not paper - > media, so I was suitably not mentioned in the article, but our > own (we don't see him as often here in a.f.c and a.s.pdp8 as > much as we used to) Doug Jones was very appropriately prominent. > > The real win in the article is how it emphasized the solid value > of data and code - whether it be on punched card or in some other form - > and that such data *is not yet lost*. Excellent job, Mr. Margulius! Unless, of course, the data is in the form of votes hand punched.... ###### From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 04:51:34 +0000 Organization: Bell Labs / Lucent Technologies Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3C635956.1BCD9935@bell-labs.com> References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 135.104.65.78 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!207.24.196.41!nntphub.cb.lucent.com!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101127 Philo wrote: > > did you see today's (feb7th) NY Times > Circuits section > > punch cards are still being used! > a few companies thought it too expensive > or unnecessary to modernize Currently at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/07/technology/circuits/07CARD.html Nice story indeed. When I read the first page of the section in the physical paper, I thought, "I should probably let Doug Jones know about this," and then on the inside, with his picture, I realized that he was the primary source. Dennis ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: nospam@nowhere.com (Steve Myers) Subject: Re: Punch cards Reply-To: nospam@nowhere.com (Steve Myers) References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2.5 Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:53:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.71.89.248 X-Complaints-To: abuse@voicenet.com X-Trace: news2.voicenet.com 1013162026 209.71.89.248 (Fri, 08 Feb 2002 04:53:46 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 04:53:46 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.voicenet.com!news2.voicenet.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101167 When I started with the Helicopter's division of Boeing back in 1991, I was amazed to discover they still used punch cards for time reporting. They were punched (and read) on a 2540, and they also still had a card sorter and the card printing device - I forget its model number. They kept using that system until 1996 or so, punching about 3 1/2 boxes of cards every week, and finally retired all of the card equipment. In <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net>, "Philo" writes: >did you see today's (feb7th) NY Times >Circuits section > >punch cards are still being used! >a few companies thought it too expensive >or unnecessary to modernize > >-- > >Philo > >website: www.plazaearth.com/philo > > ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:11:00 +0000 (UTC) Organization: The MITRE Organization Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: newslocal.mitre.org 1013184660 18611 128.29.114.13 (8 Feb 2002 16:11:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:11:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.gtei.net.MISMATCH!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101162 nospam@nowhere.com (Steve Myers) writes: >When I started with the Helicopter's division of Boeing back in 1991, I >was amazed to discover they still used punch cards for time reporting. >They were punched (and read) on a 2540, and they also still had a card >sorter and the card printing device - I forget its model number. They kept >using that system until 1996 or so, punching about 3 1/2 boxes of cards >every week, and finally retired all of the card equipment. I expect that they had their own printing on the cards for this purpose; if so, and you can find a couple of them stuck in the back of somebody's desk drawer, I suspect that Doug Jones would like to have some samples. You might ask some of the IT people, pointing out that our now-world-famous-authority on punched cards keeps a reference collection, and the use of punched cards by a major company so far beyond the time when most companies had stopped using them makes those cards especially valuable for historical purposes. Joe Morris ###### From: jones@cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: 8 Feb 2002 08:38:14 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.255.45.57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1013186295 12685 127.0.0.1 (8 Feb 2002 16:38:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2002 16:38:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!hub1.nntpserver.com!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101182 Jim Stewart wrote in message news:<87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net>... > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > The real win in the article is how it emphasized the solid value > > of data and code - whether it be on punched card or in some other form - > > and that such data *is not yet lost*. Excellent job, Mr. Margulius! I'll second that. > Unless, of course, the data is in the form of votes hand punched.... I've put many hours into the question of what went wrong with the Votomatic mechanism, and I've got some serious criticism of it. Nonetheless, my conclusion is that Votomatic voting systems aren't inherently evil, and if they are properly administered, they can deliver an acceptable degree of accuracy. What is clear from what happened in Palm Beach County is that not all jurisdictions that use Votomatic-style voting systems have administered them properly. Maintenance procedures vary immensely, and pre-election testing has been reduced to meaningless ritual. See http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html for the results of my research in this area. I don't have the final answer, there are still symptoms that have been reported to me by voters that I don't understand, but I sincerely believe that they are also caused by poor maintenance of the Votomatic mechanism. Doug Jones jones@cs.uiowa.edu ###### Message-ID: <3C64266C.BAD2544F@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 45 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:34:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.183.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013196891 12.90.183.110 (Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:34:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:34:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101112 "Douglas W. Jones" wrote: > > Jim Stewart wrote in message > > > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > > > The real win in the article is how it emphasized the solid > > > value of data and code - whether it be on punched card or in > > > some other form - and that such data *is not yet lost*. > > > Excellent job, Mr. Margulius! > > I'll second that. > > > Unless, of course, the data is in the form of votes hand punched.... > > I've put many hours into the question of what went wrong with the > Votomatic mechanism, and I've got some serious criticism of it. > Nonetheless, my conclusion is that Votomatic voting systems aren't > inherently evil, and if they are properly administered, they can > deliver an acceptable degree of accuracy. > > What is clear from what happened in Palm Beach County is that not > all jurisdictions that use Votomatic-style voting systems have > administered them properly. Maintenance procedures vary immensely, > and pre-election testing has been reduced to meaningless ritual. > See > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html > > for the results of my research in this area. I don't have the > final answer, there are still symptoms that have been reported to > me by voters that I don't understand, but I sincerely believe that > they are also caused by poor maintenance of the Votomatic mechanism. It seems obvious to me that, of the various voting mechanisms other than hand ballotting, only the card system leaves a trackable record. Anything is open to fraud, but the replacements are much worse. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Sat, 09 Feb 02 11:43:56 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> <3C64266C.BAD2544F@yahoo.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZCA6Moo9M9kbr8eTU+u+C/xLoluiDOdzLlmId7x/HXZhmabGgN23oR X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Feb 2002 13:57:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-85 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101252 In article , Jim Stewart wrote: > > >CBFalconer wrote: >> >> "Douglas W. Jones" wrote: >> > >> > Jim Stewart wrote in message >> > > >> > > Tim Shoppa wrote: >> > > > >> > > > The real win in the article is how it emphasized the solid >> > > > value of data and code - whether it be on punched card or in >> > > > some other form - and that such data *is not yet lost*. >> > > > Excellent job, Mr. Margulius! >> > >> > I'll second that. >> > >> > > Unless, of course, the data is in the form of votes hand punched.... >> > >> > I've put many hours into the question of what went wrong with the >> > Votomatic mechanism, and I've got some serious criticism of it. >> > Nonetheless, my conclusion is that Votomatic voting systems aren't >> > inherently evil, and if they are properly administered, they can >> > deliver an acceptable degree of accuracy. >> > >> > What is clear from what happened in Palm Beach County is that not >> > all jurisdictions that use Votomatic-style voting systems have >> > administered them properly. Maintenance procedures vary immensely, >> > and pre-election testing has been reduced to meaningless ritual. >> > See >> > >> > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html >> > >> > for the results of my research in this area. I don't have the >> > final answer, there are still symptoms that have been reported to >> > me by voters that I don't understand, but I sincerely believe that >> > they are also caused by poor maintenance of the Votomatic mechanism. >> >> It seems obvious to me that, of the various voting mechanisms >> other than hand ballotting, only the card system leaves a >> trackable record. Anything is open to fraud, but the replacements >> are much worse. > > >I'm not really sure what you mean by "hand ballotting". There are >several varieties of pen-and-pencil-marked, optically-scanned ballots >that are accurate and can be recounted with consistent accuracy. I >designed the electronics and optics for one of them. My precinct began using those a couple of years ago. I understand why it's necessary to upgrade but I rather enjoyed the ritual of the old coot[1] who stood there to hand crank the ballot into the recepticle. [1] That old coot has a ton of knowledge to mine. He knows how everything works, how the data (vote count) flows, and all kinds of other stuff. A side effect of having an automatic sheet grabber mechanism is that the guy wanders and you can't find him to listen to him. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 19:57:15 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 48 Message-ID: X-Orig-Message-ID: <3C649E1B.E2984C42@jkmicro.com> References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> <3C64266C.BAD2544F@yahoo.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Fri Feb 8 21:53:17 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !^h\f1k-V^ii+LYFV&,4AS`+c (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101233 CBFalconer wrote: > > "Douglas W. Jones" wrote: > > > > Jim Stewart wrote in message > > > > > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > > > > > The real win in the article is how it emphasized the solid > > > > value of data and code - whether it be on punched card or in > > > > some other form - and that such data *is not yet lost*. > > > > Excellent job, Mr. Margulius! > > > > I'll second that. > > > > > Unless, of course, the data is in the form of votes hand punched.... > > > > I've put many hours into the question of what went wrong with the > > Votomatic mechanism, and I've got some serious criticism of it. > > Nonetheless, my conclusion is that Votomatic voting systems aren't > > inherently evil, and if they are properly administered, they can > > deliver an acceptable degree of accuracy. > > > > What is clear from what happened in Palm Beach County is that not > > all jurisdictions that use Votomatic-style voting systems have > > administered them properly. Maintenance procedures vary immensely, > > and pre-election testing has been reduced to meaningless ritual. > > See > > > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html > > > > for the results of my research in this area. I don't have the > > final answer, there are still symptoms that have been reported to > > me by voters that I don't understand, but I sincerely believe that > > they are also caused by poor maintenance of the Votomatic mechanism. > > It seems obvious to me that, of the various voting mechanisms > other than hand ballotting, only the card system leaves a > trackable record. Anything is open to fraud, but the replacements > are much worse. I'm not really sure what you mean by "hand ballotting". There are several varieties of pen-and-pencil-marked, optically-scanned ballots that are accurate and can be recounted with consistent accuracy. I designed the electronics and optics for one of them. ###### Message-ID: <3C64B4C5.F3501C1D@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> <3C64266C.BAD2544F@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 05:41:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1013233303 12.90.169.102 (Sat, 09 Feb 2002 05:41:43 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 05:41:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101228 Jim Stewart wrote: > > CBFalconer wrote: > > > > "Douglas W. Jones" wrote: > > > ... snip ... > > > > > > What is clear from what happened in Palm Beach County is that not > > > all jurisdictions that use Votomatic-style voting systems have > > > administered them properly. Maintenance procedures vary immensely, > > > and pre-election testing has been reduced to meaningless ritual. > > > See > > > > > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html > > > > > > for the results of my research in this area. I don't have the > > > final answer, there are still symptoms that have been reported to > > > me by voters that I don't understand, but I sincerely believe that > > > they are also caused by poor maintenance of the Votomatic mechanism. > > > > It seems obvious to me that, of the various voting mechanisms > > other than hand ballotting, only the card system leaves a > > trackable record. Anything is open to fraud, but the replacements > > are much worse. > > I'm not really sure what you mean by "hand ballotting". There are > several varieties of pen-and-pencil-marked, optically-scanned ballots > that are accurate and can be recounted with consistent accuracy. I > designed the electronics and optics for one of them. Exactly what I mean, as long as you also include the MARK I human eyeball for counting. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### From: Jim Stewart Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 22:51:38 -0800 Organization: http://www.jkmicro.com Lines: 44 Message-ID: <1DBD0FAD996F0DC1.25F612B3E7866F3C.405AF62734F481E5@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <3C64C6FA.D578FBE@jkmicro.com> References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> <3C64266C.BAD2544F@yahoo.com> <3C64B4C5.F3501C1D@yahoo.com> Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library1-aux.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sat Feb 9 00:47:35 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !cdiX1k-W[d+]X.A9`87@;oap (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!supernews.com!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal1.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101236 CBFalconer wrote: > > Jim Stewart wrote: > > > > CBFalconer wrote: > > > > > > "Douglas W. Jones" wrote: > > > > > ... snip ... > > > > > > > > What is clear from what happened in Palm Beach County is that not > > > > all jurisdictions that use Votomatic-style voting systems have > > > > administered them properly. Maintenance procedures vary immensely, > > > > and pre-election testing has been reduced to meaningless ritual. > > > > See > > > > > > > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html > > > > > > > > for the results of my research in this area. I don't have the > > > > final answer, there are still symptoms that have been reported to > > > > me by voters that I don't understand, but I sincerely believe that > > > > they are also caused by poor maintenance of the Votomatic mechanism. > > > > > > It seems obvious to me that, of the various voting mechanisms > > > other than hand ballotting, only the card system leaves a > > > trackable record. Anything is open to fraud, but the replacements > > > are much worse. > > > > I'm not really sure what you mean by "hand ballotting". There are > > several varieties of pen-and-pencil-marked, optically-scanned ballots > > that are accurate and can be recounted with consistent accuracy. I > > designed the electronics and optics for one of them. > > Exactly what I mean, as long as you also include the MARK I human > eyeball for counting. I was going to include the fact that they can also be handcounted, but figured that it was self-evident. I've helped at many elections, and there was always an official logic and accuracy test before and after the election where batches of ballots were marked, machine counted and hand counted. This was to confirm the accuracy of the counting process and the coding logic of the software. ###### From: "Philo" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <3c659467@news.iis.com.br> Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:57:32 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3c669809$0$3037$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.250.193.83 X-Trace: 1013356553 news.twtelecom.net 3037 207.250.193.83 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!spool1.twtelecom.net!207.250.5.11.MISMATCH!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101341 oh...this thread is still going... when i took my first (and last) computer course in 1968 and had to use punch cards i thought, "my gosh, this is 1968 , there *must* be a better way to do this". our school had just one terminal and it was reserved for the upper classmen. in retrospect...the fact that your entire program would be 'spit out' if you had as much as one unambiguous paren. missing... i have to admit...you did have to *think* in those days :) -- Philo website: www.plazaearth.com/philo ###### Message-ID: <3C67DC72.7E5680A4@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:12:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.123.133 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1013440371 168.191.123.133 (Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:12:51 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:12:51 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:12:50 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101396 Philo wrote: > did you see today's (feb7th) NY Times > Circuits section > > punch cards are still being used! > a few companies thought it too expensive > or unnecessary to modernize Speaking of cards, a customer just gave me a "card gauge". This is an aluminum rectangle about half to three quarters of an inch longer and wider than a punch card and about 3/8ths inch thick. Two additional strips of this material are riveted to the main piece, one along the bottom edge and one along the right to act as "stops". Printed within the rectangular area are little black rectangles representing all the possible holes which could be punched in a card. To use the gauge, one places a punched card on it against the stops and observes the black rectangles through the holes punched in the card. If one sees any "aluminum" around the edge of the a hole, it indicates that the card punch which was used to punch the card is out of alignment. Printed on the gauge is 68 degrees indicating that is the proper temperature of the gauge for the best accuracy. There is a thin strip of aluminum attached on the front of the bottom "stop" strip which says ICT CARD GAUGE and the ICT is inside a guitar pick shape oval. Anyone know anything about this company? What is/was their name? Are they still in business? If so what are they doing? Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$ ###### From: Charles Eicher Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: 11 Feb 2002 11:11:27 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-660.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.91 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-w!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101395 In article , jones@cs.uiowa.edu says... > >Jim Stewart wrote in message >news:<87BDF27BC53E0D8A.C39E78167ABBFA2D.09E02BF65C0EAA24@lp.airnews.net>... >> Tim Shoppa wrote: >> > >> > The real win in the article is how it emphasized the solid value >> > of data and code - whether it be on punched card or in some other form - >> > and that such data *is not yet lost*. Excellent job, Mr. Margulius! > >I'll second that. > >> Unless, of course, the data is in the form of votes hand punched.... > >I've put many hours into the question of what went wrong with the Votomatic >mechanism, and I've got some serious criticism of it. Nonetheless, my >conclusion is that Votomatic voting systems aren't inherently evil, and if >they are properly administered, they can deliver an acceptable degree of >accuracy. You ought to go vote in California, to see why they want to keep votomatic. I recall voting in Silverlake, a shabby barrio near downtown, in a plumber's storefront. It was manned by two people, I think this precinct only drew about 30 votes. There's a gazillion of these tiny voting stations, they want to use votomatic because it's cheap in applications like this, and even the worst idiot poll officials can't screw it up too badly. >What is clear from what happened in Palm Beach County is that not all >jurisdictions that use Votomatic-style voting systems have administered >them properly. Maintenance procedures vary immensely, and pre-election >testing has been reduced to meaningless ritual. See > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/chad.html > >for the results of my research in this area. I don't have the final answer, >there are still symptoms that have been reported to me by voters that I >don't understand, but I sincerely believe that they are also caused by >poor maintenance of the Votomatic mechanism. Iowa's system has its flaws too, which did not become apparent to me until I read your voting system papers. I recently voted at Ernest Horn school, one of the busier precincts in IC. I was appalled to see what the poll official did. I filled out the little form with my name and address. The pollster took the form, and looked up my name in a book of 11x17 computer printout to see if I was registered. Then she wrote an ID number in the book next to my name, and on my form and _ballot_. I watched and they put sequential numbers on every voter. This totally violates the whole concept of secret balloting and opens up huge opportunities for fraud. I think this serializing of voters and ballots was just some impromptu thing a pollworker cooked up to save work counting ballots when the polls closed. I was tempted to explain the problem to them, but I despaired at the prospects of explaining a logical problem to grey-haired old ladies running the polls. Someone ought to tell them to stick to the standard procedures, no additions and no ad hoc changes. ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:08:11 +0000 Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <3C67DC72.7E5680A4@earthlink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.137.252.41 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.20.1.166 X-Trace: 11 Feb 2002 20:12:15 GMT, 10.20.1.166 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!10.20.1.166 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101567 In article <3C67DC72.7E5680A4@earthlink.net>, jchausler in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >. There is a thin strip of >aluminum attached on the front of the bottom "stop" strip >which says ICT CARD GAUGE and the ICT is inside a >guitar pick shape oval. Anyone know anything about this >company? What is/was their name? Are they still in >business? If so what are they doing? > The one I know was formed in 1958 as a result of merger between BTM and Power Samas to become International Computers and Tabulators. BTM =British Tabulating Machine Co., a very old company in that field. Later bought Ferranti's computer interests. It took over EE computers about 1970, to become ICL. I think it is Fujitsu (sp?) now, but I still have one old friend working for an offshoot, keeping the last few ICL machines alive. Well known quote re ICT in the sixties:- "With the 1301, 1500, 2400, 1004, Orion and Atlas, it has the largest rat bag of incompatible computers that is possible to imagine" Regards, David P. ###### Message-ID: <3C69783D.27CD79B3@earthlink.net> From: jchausler X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Punch cards References: <3c632e05$0$27755$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <3C67DC72.7E5680A4@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:29:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.123.224 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1013545789 168.191.123.224 (Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:29:49 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:29:49 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net X-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:29:49 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101513 David Powell wrote: > In article <3C67DC72.7E5680A4@earthlink.net>, > jchausler in alt.folklore.computers wrote: > > >. There is a thin strip of > >aluminum attached on the front of the bottom "stop" strip > >which says ICT CARD GAUGE and the ICT is inside a > >guitar pick shape oval. Anyone know anything about this > >company? What is/was their name? Are they still in > >business? If so what are they doing? > > > > The one I know was formed in 1958 as a result of merger between BTM > and Power Samas to become International Computers and Tabulators. > BTM =British Tabulating Machine Co., a very old company in that field. > Later bought Ferranti's computer interests. > It took over EE computers about 1970, to become ICL. > > I think it is Fujitsu (sp?) now, but I still have one old friend > working for an offshoot, keeping the last few ICL machines alive. > > Well known quote re ICT in the sixties:- > "With the 1301, 1500, 2400, 1004, Orion and Atlas, it has the largest > rat bag of incompatible computers that is possible to imagine" Interesting. This item lived at a site in Albany NY with a system installed in about 69 or 70 and although the computers (GE-PAC 4020's) were running up into last year, the card readers (Documation 600's) and the GE card punch had been taken out of service years before. I'm assuming the card gauge came with the system and thus is from the late 60's although I suppose a visiting CE might have accidently left it behind so I don't really know how old it is. But if not this latter case, I would suspect GE provided it with the system. I don't know if they had any relation with ICT and why wouldn't have used a US vendor. The ICT label is just stuck on the front of the gauge. Chris AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE $$