Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@swingandcircle.com>
Subject: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Message-ID: <u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com>
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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:07:33 GMT
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>>>>> On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:36:21 GMT, CBFalconer  ("CBFalconer") writes:

 CBFalconer> Charlie Gibbs wrote:
 >> 
 CBFalconer> ... snip ...
 >> 
 >> When I hear the term "luggable" I think of the Olivetti M18 on
 >> which our software was born.  It was about the size and weight
 >> of a 40-pound suitcase.  Unfortunately, to fit among the card
 >> slots the handle was mounted at 90 degrees to the comfortable
 >> orientation found on a standard suitcase (i.e. across the long
 >> axis instead of along it).  I had to lug the thing a couple of
 >> blocks one time.  My arm wound up several inches longer; after
 >> the pain subsided I became a ping-pong pro.

 CBFalconer> <Thread-Drift Warning>

 CBFalconer> Then there was the luggable IBM machine that implemented APL and
 CBFalconer> cost somewhere around 20 kilobucks.  Feasable luggability still
 CBFalconer> lay in the future with Osborne and Kaypro, and 2 kilobucks.  Still
 CBFalconer> later Compaq reared its head in the same field.

The IBM 5100!  
I used one a few times back in the mid-1970s at Scientific Timesharing.
The screen was like 32x12, but logically it was 64x12 (or maybe it was
like 80x16, I forget) but you toggled a switch back and forth to see
the left and right sides of the screen!  Of course, short lines were
fine for APL.  It also had BASIC in the ROM, but I didn't use that.
I was told that the machine was actually emulating an IBM mainframe.
Mass storage on the device was a tape cartridge.

This was all long before the 68000 though!

######

Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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Christopher Stacy <cstacy@swingandcircle.com> writes:
> The IBM 5100!  
> I used one a few times back in the mid-1970s at Scientific Timesharing.
> The screen was like 32x12, but logically it was 64x12 (or maybe it was
> like 80x16, I forget) but you toggled a switch back and forth to see
> the left and right sides of the screen!

No, it's 64x16, which by default are all visible at once.  You can flip a
switch to go into 32x16 showing the left half, or the right half.
Unfortunately it doesn't make the characters double width, it just displays
spaces inbetween, so it's not particularly useful.

There was also a switch that made it display the first 512 bytes of RAM
in hexadecimal instead of the normal text buffer.  Used for field service.
I'm not sure why they put the switch right on the front panel, rather than
inside the machine like the single step control.

> It also had BASIC in the ROM, but I didn't use that.

They were available with APL, BASIC, or both.  The machines with both
actually have a front panel switch to select.

> I was told that the machine was actually emulating an IBM mainframe.

They simulate enough of a 360 to run a modified version of APL\360.
For BASIC they apparently simulate a System/3 or something similar.

> Mass storage on the device was a tape cartridge.
> This was all long before the 68000 though!

Yup.  The IBM 5100 was introduced in 1975.  It was pretty advanced
for a desktop machine at that time.  It was followed by the 5110,
which supported optional 8-inch floppy drives, a few more I/O devices,
and had some improvements to the BASIC interpreter including better string
support.  I'm not sure how much they improved the APL.  The 5120 was
a repackaging of the 5110 with the disk drives and a bigger monitor
in a single box.  The 5120 looks about the same as a System/23
Datamaster.

######

From: Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:59:10 -0000
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Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately it doesn't make the characters double width, it just displays
> spaces inbetween, so it's not particularly useful.
> 
I am struggling to think *why* anyone would find that a useful feature
in that case!  Any suggestions? :)

pete

######

From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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Pete Fenelon (pete@fenelon.com) writes:
> Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:
>> Unfortunately it doesn't make the characters double width, it just displays
>> spaces inbetween, so it's not particularly useful.
>> 
> I am struggling to think *why* anyone would find that a useful feature
> in that case!  Any suggestions? :)

  THINKing ahead!  DBCS - Double Byte Character Set!

  Back in the 70's, I used a nifto neato glass terminal that could be
  switched to show ASCII control characters as they were received.
  Great for debugging intricate displays in text mode.

######

From: Andrew Carol <aacaroll@coastside.net>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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In article <u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com>, Christopher Stacy
<cstacy@swingandcircle.com> wrote:

> The IBM 5100!  
> I used one a few times back in the mid-1970s at Scientific Timesharing.
> The screen was like 32x12, but logically it was 64x12 (or maybe it was
> like 80x16, I forget) but you toggled a switch back and forth to see
> the left and right sides of the screen!  Of course, short lines were
> fine for APL.  It also had BASIC in the ROM, but I didn't use that.
> I was told that the machine was actually emulating an IBM mainframe.
> Mass storage on the device was a tape cartridge.
> 
> This was all long before the 68000 though!

I remember visiting the Landstuhl base library in Germany (I was in the
7th grade) when I discovered the IBM 5100 users manual.  I must have
checked it out a dozen times.

I was totally in love with the idea of a computer with a high level
language that you could actually carry somewhere.

--- Andy

######

From: aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: 27 Jan 2002 18:49:31 -0800
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Christopher Stacy <cstacy@swingandcircle.com> wrote in message news:<u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com>...

> I was told that the machine was actually emulating an IBM mainframe.

Not emulating, but maybe talking to...

The 5100 could be used as a terminal to an S/3, and probably S/360 and
S/370.

I am not sure what was involved - I would have dig thru some docs that
I probably can't find anyway.

William Donzelli

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Message-ID: <ulmejyoez.fsf@theworld.com>
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>>>>> On 27 Jan 2002 18:49:31 -0800, William Donzelli ("William") writes:
   >>Christopher Stacy <cstacy@swingandcircle.com> wrote in message news:<u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com>...
   >> I was told that the machine was actually emulating an IBM mainframe.

 William> Not emulating, but maybe talking to...

The 5100 was not a terminal -- it was the first portable personal computer.

What I heard was (back in 1975 when I used one) was that the APL
interpreter on the machine was executing the same instructions as 
one of the mainframes.

Here's more information that I have learned: The 5100 "controller" was
called "PALM" (for Put All Logic in Microcode), with 16-bit microcodes
on a 16-bit bus, 16-bit general-purpose registers, and an 8-bit ALU.
Main memory is byte-addressble, parity-checked and up to 64 KB.
There was a bunch of read-only memory containing the diagnostic and IO
supervisory routines, virtual machine interpreters each for APL and BASIC.

The APL interpreter was based on APLSV and the APL microcode emulated
a subset of the S/360 instruction set.

Internally at IBM there was an earlier proof-of-concept computer system
called SCAMP ("Special Computer APL Machine Portable") that emulated the
IBM 1130 and ran APL\1130.  The original machine is in the Smithsonian.

Hewlett-Packard produced a similar-looking computer a few years later
called the HP85, which had their BASIC in ROM, but was only 16KB, and
which also included a little thermal printer.  I suspect sure that this
machine was emulating the the HP2100S (HP/2000 Time Shared Basic).

######

From: aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote in message news:<ulmejyoez.fsf@theworld.com>...

> The 5100 was not a terminal -- it was the first portable personal computer.

It ran some sort of communications package - a terminal emulator, basically.

William Donzelli

######

From: brian_huntley@hotmail.com (Brian Huntley)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: 28 Jan 2002 10:40:33 -0800
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ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote in message news:<a2sd98$dkh$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>...
> 
>   Back in the 70's, I used a nifto neato glass terminal that could be
>   switched to show ASCII control characters as they were received.
>   Great for debugging intricate displays in text mode.

I debugged a NAPLPS library that way once. Almost went blind.

Volker-Craig 414, I think.

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Message-ID: <usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com>
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>>>>> On 28 Jan 2002 07:48:07 -0800, William Donzelli ("William") writes:

 William> Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote in message news:<ulmejyoez.fsf@theworld.com>...
 >> The 5100 was not a terminal -- it was the first portable personal computer.
 William> It ran some sort of communications package - a terminal emulator, basically.

Yes, you can use a computer system as a terminal.
However, you are incorrect in the message where you asserted
that it was not a full-blown personal computer system that
emulated an IBM 360 and ran APL and BASIC.  
(Yes, it also had a communications IO port.)

######

From: aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: 28 Jan 2002 20:57:31 -0800
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Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote in message news:<usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com>...

> Yes, you can use a computer system as a terminal.
> However, you are incorrect in the message where you asserted
> that it was not a full-blown personal computer system that
> emulated an IBM 360 and ran APL and BASIC.  

????

Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
S/360 APL, but that is about it.

William Donzelli

######

Message-ID: <3C565958.792CF11B@ev1.net>
From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net
Organization: Cannine Computer Center
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William Donzelli wrote:
> 
> Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote in message news:<usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com>...
> 
> > Yes, you can use a computer system as a terminal.
> > However, you are incorrect in the message where you asserted
> > that it was not a full-blown personal computer system that
> > emulated an IBM 360 and ran APL and BASIC.
> 
> ????
> 
> Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
> to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
> emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
> communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
> expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
> S/360 APL, but that is about it.
> 
I have read that the IBM 5100 emulated the IBM 1130, and ran
APL\1130. That's why the damn 5100 was so *sssslllloooowwww*...

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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>>>>> On 28 Jan 2002 20:57:31 -0800, William Donzelli ("William") writes:

 William> Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote in message news:<usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com>...
 >> Yes, you can use a computer system as a terminal.
 >> However, you are incorrect in the message where you asserted
 >> that it was not a full-blown personal computer system that
 >> emulated an IBM 360 and ran APL and BASIC.  

 William> ????

 William> Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
 William> to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
 William> emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
 William> communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
 William> expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
 William> S/360 APL, but that is about it.

I guess you missed the post where I explained that the 5100 emulates
a subset of the S/360 instruction set, runs APLSV, and described other
facts about the architecture and its history.

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99891

>>>>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:11:41 GMT, Charles Richmond ("Charles") writes:

 Charles> William Donzelli wrote:
 >> 
 >> Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote in message news:<usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com>...
 >> 
 >> > Yes, you can use a computer system as a terminal.
 >> > However, you are incorrect in the message where you asserted
 >> > that it was not a full-blown personal computer system that
 >> > emulated an IBM 360 and ran APL and BASIC.
 >> 
 >> ????
 >> 
 >> Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
 >> to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
 >> emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
 >> communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
 >> expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
 >> S/360 APL, but that is about it.
 >> 
 Charles> I have read that the IBM 5100 emulated the IBM 1130, and ran
 Charles> APL\1130. That's why the damn 5100 was so *sssslllloooowwww*...

No, that was the SCAMP, which was the unreleased predecessor of the 5100.

Is it that my posts aren't getting through, or just nobody reads them?

######

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Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs
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Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> writes:
> I have read that the IBM 5100 emulated the IBM 1130, and ran
> APL\1130. That's why the damn 5100 was so *sssslllloooowwww*...

The SCAMP, the non-product predecessor of the 5100, simulated an 1130
and ran APL\1130.  But for the 5100, it was decided that APL\1130 was
not sufficiently up to date, so instead it simulates the 360 instruction
set and runs a modified version of APL\360.  References: D.A. Roberson's
paper "A Microprocessor-based Portable Computer: The IBM 5100",
Proceedings of the IEEE, vol. 64 no. 5, June 1976, and A.D. Falkoff's
article "The IBM Family of APL Systems", IBM Systems Journal vol. 30
no. 4.

A (the?) SCAMP is in the Smithsonian.  I wonder if it still works.

http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/

######

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Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
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aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes:
> Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
> to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
> emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
> communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
> expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
> S/360 APL, but that is about it.

earlier version of the 5100 ran 1130/apl. the "palm" processor in the
5100 ran 360/apl.

random rfs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#69 APL on PalmOS ???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#70 APL on PalmOS ???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#24 A question for you old guys -- IBM 1130 information
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000g.html#46 A new "Remember when?" period happening right now
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#45 First OS?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#56 Why SMP at all anymore?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#71 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ 

######

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aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes:
> Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
> to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
> emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
> communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
> expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
> S/360 APL, but that is about it.

It emulates enough of the System 360 architecture to run modified
APL\360.

References:

Roberson, D.A., A microprocessor-based portable computer: The IBM 5100.
Proceedings of the IEEE, June 1976, vol. 64, no. 6, pp. 994-9.

Falkoff, A.D., The IBM Family of APL systems.  IBM Systems Journal,
vol. 30, no. 4, pp. 416-432.

#######

Message-ID: <3C579D72.F3C4BDF1@ev1.net>
From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> 
> aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes:
> > Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
> > to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
> > emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
> > communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
> > expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
> > S/360 APL, but that is about it.
> 
> earlier version of the 5100 ran 1130/apl. the "palm" processor in the
> 5100 ran 360/apl.
> 
Which *ever* processor the 5100 emulated...does anyone wish to
deny that it was so damn slow??? That was the sticking point
with me...and one reason that the 5100 was a rousing failure...
Another reason was its *huge* pricetag.

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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Charles Richmond (richmond@ev1.net) writes:
 
> Which *ever* processor the 5100 emulated...does anyone wish to
> deny that it was so damn slow??? That was the sticking point
> with me...and one reason that the 5100 was a rousing failure...
> Another reason was its *huge* pricetag.

  You raise two interesting points.

  At the time, what was "damn slow" ?  A remote 370/168 running an 8 Mb
  APL/SV model of the Canadian economy (OK, sorry that I didn't tell you
  to fasten your seatbelts before laughing off your chair - the economy
  part, I mean.)  Or the fact that this box took its time doing much more
  than a basic mechanical calculator would do for adds, subtracts, etc.

  Although never near one (shite!), if that box did an APL\360 (note the
  \ ) for some reasonable )WSSIZE I congrat the developers.

  As for pricing, compare the Heathkit 3400 trainer and the followup
  ETA 4K box (with Tiny Basic) to any luggable of that era.

######

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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>>>>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:57:28 GMT, Christopher Stacy ("Christopher") writes:
>>>>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:11:41 GMT, Charles Richmond ("Charles") writes:
 Charles> William Donzelli wrote:
 >>> 
 >>> Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com> wrote in message news:<usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com>...
 >>> 
 >>> > Yes, you can use a computer system as a terminal.
 >>> > However, you are incorrect in the message where you asserted
 >>> > that it was not a full-blown personal computer system that
 >>> > emulated an IBM 360 and ran APL and BASIC.
 >>> 
 >>> ????
 >>> 
 >>> Maybe I am a little more confused here, but I think you are starting
 >>> to "put words in my mouth". All I said was that the 5100 was not
 >>> emulating the S/360 architecture. It may, however, be used to
 >>> communicate with a machine with an S/360 architecture. You can not
 >>> expect to run S/360 code on a 5100. Maybe the 5100 APL is based on the
 >>> S/360 APL, but that is about it.
 >>> 
 Charles> I have read that the IBM 5100 emulated the IBM 1130, and ran
 Charles> APL\1130. That's why the damn 5100 was so *sssslllloooowwww*...

 Christopher> No, that was the SCAMP, which was the unreleased predecessor of the 5100.

 Christopher> Is it that my posts aren't getting through, or just nobody reads them?

At least one person suggested that soem of my posts might be lost,
so here's the relevent excerpt:

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:34:12 GMT

>>>>> On 27 Jan 2002 18:49:31 -0800, William Donzelli ("William") writes:
   >>Christopher Stacy <cstacy@swingandcircle.com> wrote in message news:<u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com>...
   >> I was told that the machine was actually emulating an IBM mainframe.

 William> Not emulating, but maybe talking to...

The 5100 was not a terminal -- it was the first portable personal computer.

What I heard was (back in 1975 when I used one) was that the APL
interpreter on the machine was executing the same instructions as 
one of the mainframes.

Here's more information that I have learned: The 5100 "controller" was
called "PALM" (for Put All Logic in Microcode), with 16-bit microcodes
on a 16-bit bus, 16-bit general-purpose registers, and an 8-bit ALU.
Main memory is byte-addressble, parity-checked and up to 64 KB.
There was a bunch of read-only memory containing the diagnostic and IO
supervisory routines, virtual machine interpreters each for APL and BASIC.

The APL interpreter was based on APLSV and the APL microcode emulated
a subset of the S/360 instruction set.

Internally at IBM there was an earlier proof-of-concept computer system
called SCAMP ("Special Computer APL Machine Portable") that emulated the
IBM 1130 and ran APL\1130.  The original machine is in the Smithsonian.

######

From: aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:41:34 -0800
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Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote in message news:<qh8zah53y6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>...

> It emulates enough of the System 360 architecture to run modified
> APL\360.

This is interesting. How much gets emulated? Obviously, not the whole
thing, otherwise you could run S/360 code on the machine.

William Donzelli

######

Sender: lynn@LYNNPC
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
References: <fobjevatzcpqngnpbhx.gqgoao7.pminews@news-ogw> <GqGDyF.9II@world.std.com> <1408.789T162T8083487@sky.bus.com> <3C50CC2D.CEF64CC6@yahoo.com> <u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com> <8a1964a6.0201271849.53452349@posting.google.com> <ulmejyoez.fsf@theworld.com> <8a1964a6.0201280748.39825f36@posting.google.com> <usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com> <8a1964a6.0201282057.5dc29b42@posting.google.com> <qh8zah53y6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <8a1964a6.0201302141.bf373da@posting.google.com>
Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
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aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes:
> 
> This is interesting. How much gets emulated? Obviously, not the whole
> thing, otherwise you could run S/360 code on the machine.

I don't know the details for 5100/PALM ... but for 360 there is
non-privilege application code, privilege code, and then all the I/O
infrastructure (and implementing all the i/o infrastructure could be
quite a large effort). Various "360" machines didn't even implement
all non-privilege instructions ... like not implementing decimal
instructions (and emulating them).

The 
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/
page doesn't go into details of the 360 subset.

However, note that apl/360 included the apl environment support
and interpreter as well as a small multi-tasker and "swapper" (move
apl workspaces into & out of memory). CSC do the work to create
cms/apl (single user), just the environment & interpreter running
under cms w/o need for the multi-tasker & swapper stuff (provided by
cp). I don't have any of the details ... but the 5100 would have been
much closer to cms/apl subset than original apl/360.

Bu comparison, the XT/370 "processor" implemented all the
non-privilege instructions ... but only a subset of the privilege
instructions (and none of the I/O infrastructure). It required a
custom modified version of VM/370 ... which would do I/O via message
passing to CP/88 running on the 8088.

SLAC had done a sub-set 360 ... where they had bit-slice computer with
enuf non-privilege 360 instructions to execute fortran application ...
place one at each of the data collection points for doing initial data
reduction. I recollect it was referred to something like the 168E, aka
they would run fortran application at 370/168 thruput.

random refs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#42 bloat
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#23 Old IBM's
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#5 IBM XT/370 and AT/370 (was Re: Computer of the century)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#29 Operating systems, guest and actual
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#69 APL on PalmOS ???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#70 APL on PalmOS ???
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#75 Mainframe operating systems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#52 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#55 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#69 Z/90, S/390, 370/ESA (slightly off topic)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001c.html#89 database (or b-tree) page sizes
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#54 VM & VSE news
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#28 IBM's "VM for the PC" c.1984??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#53 S/370 PC board
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#19 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#20 Very CISC Instuctions (Was: why the machine word size ...)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#24 HP Compaq merger, here we go again.
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#92 "blocking factors" (Was: Tapes)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#4 Buffer overflow
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#11 The demise of compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#52 Microcode?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#39 IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ 

######

Sender: eric@ruckus.brouhaha.com
From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
References: <fobjevatzcpqngnpbhx.gqgoao7.pminews@news-ogw> <GqGDyF.9II@world.std.com> <1408.789T162T8083487@sky.bus.com> <3C50CC2D.CEF64CC6@yahoo.com> <u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com> <8a1964a6.0201271849.53452349@posting.google.com> <ulmejyoez.fsf@theworld.com> <8a1964a6.0201280748.39825f36@posting.google.com> <usn8qaxlr.fsf@theworld.com> <8a1964a6.0201282057.5dc29b42@posting.google.com> <qh8zah53y6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <8a1964a6.0201302141.bf373da@posting.google.com>
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:100703

I wrote (of the IBM 5100):
> > It emulates enough of the System 360 architecture to run modified
> > APL\360.

aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes:
> This is interesting. How much gets emulated? Obviously, not the whole
> thing, otherwise you could run S/360 code on the machine.

Enough to run modified APL\360.

######

Sender: lynn@LYNNPC
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
References: <fobjevatzcpqngnpbhx.gqgoao7.pminews@news-ogw> <GqGDyF.9II@world.std.com> <1408.789T162T8083487@sky.bus.com> <3C50CC2D.CEF64CC6@yahoo.com> <u665rm31m.fsf_-_@swingandcircle.com> <8a1964a6.0201271849.53452349@posting.google.com> <3C5CE684.75492A26@TSTOnRamp.com>
Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
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Tom Kinch <LTKinch@TSTOnRamp.com> writes:
> 
> There was a plug-in board that ran a "370 processor". i don't remember all that was involved but it supposedly
> ran BAL. i tried to find one to look at but never SAW one.

original was xt/370 ... see some references posted to this thread
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002b.html#43

for image scroll down melinda's page to personal/370 & personal/390
http://pucc.princeton.edu/~melinda

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ 

######

Sender: lynn@LYNNPC
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Tom Kinch <LTKinch@TSTOnRamp.com> writes:
> There was a plug-in board that ran a "370 processor". i don't remember all that was involved but it supposedly
> ran BAL. i tried to find one to look at but never SAW one.

this was just forwarded to me ... it is a spoof with large number of pictures
from the past in the gallaries 
http://www.lindkvist.com/digitaldataporn/xxx.html

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ 

######

From: michaelg@gray.mb.ca (Michael Gillespie)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: 20 Feb 2002 21:00:28 -0800
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> The 5100 was not a terminal -- it was the first portable personal computer.

I've got TWO IBM 5100 computers - complete and working. One is 64K
with APL & BASIC. The other is 16K with BASIC only. I have two
printers, two external tape drives.

I have ALL the software distributed with the machines plus a lot of
technical/service documentation.

And a bazillion tapes.

Is any of this of use or interest to anyone out there?

Michael.

######

From: jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:59:13 -0000
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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On 20 Feb 2002 21:00:28 -0800, Michael Gillespie <michaelg@gray.mb.ca> wrote:
>Is any of this of use or interest to anyone out there?

I'm definitely interested; seeing an ad for the 5100 was the first time I
got the idea that a personal computer was even possible. I can't speak to
"of use", though.

######

From: echomko@polaris.umuc.edu (Eric Chomko)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:49:25 +0000 (UTC)
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102316


Distribution: 

Jay Maynard (jmaynard@thebrain.conmicro.cx) wrote:
: On 20 Feb 2002 21:00:28 -0800, Michael Gillespie <michaelg@gray.mb.ca> wrote:
: >Is any of this of use or interest to anyone out there?

: I'm definitely interested; seeing an ad for the 5100 was the first time I
: got the idea that a personal computer was even possible. I can't speak to
: "of use", though.

I actually worked on an IBM 5110 during summer break while in college for $$.
Yep, I was doing some propgramming in BASIC for a community management firm.
Later, I worked on an IBM 5100 while in college at a part time job. It was
hard having first worked on a 5110 and then going to a 5100. 

I wouldn't actually call them 'portable', but more at 'desktop.'

Eric

######

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From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>
Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net
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Michael Gillespie wrote:
> 
> > The 5100 was not a terminal -- it was the first portable personal computer.
> 
> I've got TWO IBM 5100 computers - complete and working. One is 64K
> with APL & BASIC. The other is 16K with BASIC only. I have two
> printers, two external tape drives.
> 
> I have ALL the software distributed with the machines plus a lot of
> technical/service documentation.
> 
> And a bazillion tapes.
> 
> Is any of this of use or interest to anyone out there?
> 
There was a guy in Hawaii who was seeking an IBM 5100 a couple
of years back. He really posted a *lot* of messages in several
newsgroups, but seemed *not* to find anyone with a machine he
might get. If I can find his info, perhaps he is still interested.

I might be interested myself, also. What part of Canada are you in???

-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

######

From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: 22 Feb 02 10:48:04 -0800
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In article <a55q8v$3s$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) writes:

> So for Manitoba, wouldn't MA make more sense?

It would, but Massachusetts got there first.

> Actually, being an Old Fart, I still like Man., Ont., etc.
> Screw the postal OCRs, let them learn to read.

Amen, brother!  Computers are meant to serve people, not the other
way around.  I was in my first full-time programming job when these
codes were introduced.  Since then I've reflected many times on the
irony that although these codes were intended to make things easier
for computers, computers were becoming powerful enough to deal with
the existing abbreviations.

As an internal code used by programs and file layouts, they're
great.  Otherwise, I'm with you - screw 'em.  I shall never use
them on a letter.

And that's the way I see it here in rain-drenched Port Coquitlam,
B.C. (that's with two periods, dammit!).

--
cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)
Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.
I don't read top-posted messages.  If you want me to see your reply,
appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:28:33 -0700
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On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:31:11 GMT, Charles Richmond
<richmond@ev1.net> wrote:

>Michael Gillespie wrote:
>> 
>> > The 5100 was not a terminal -- it was the first portable personal computer.
>> 
>> I've got TWO IBM 5100 computers - complete and working. One is 64K
>> with APL & BASIC. The other is 16K with BASIC only. I have two
>> printers, two external tape drives.
>> 
>> I have ALL the software distributed with the machines plus a lot of
>> technical/service documentation.
>> 
>> And a bazillion tapes.
>> 
>> Is any of this of use or interest to anyone out there?
>> 
>There was a guy in Hawaii who was seeking an IBM 5100 a couple
>of years back. He really posted a *lot* of messages in several
>newsgroups, but seemed *not* to find anyone with a machine he
>might get. If I can find his info, perhaps he is still interested.
>
>I might be interested myself, also. What part of Canada are you in???

Does the .MB.ca give you a clue it might be Manitoba, possibly
Winnipeg? If I have to try and remember all your (50) state and
(???) university abbreviations, you can at least try to remember
our (10) province/territory and (??) university abbreviations ;^>

Querying gray.mb.ca@whois.cira.ca gives:

Organization:   The Gray Research Group
Description:    Software development.
Admin-Name:     Michael Gillespie
Admin-Title:    President
Admin-Postal:   The Gray Research Group
                708 Oakenwald Avenue
                Winnipeg MB R3T 1M7 Canada
Admin-Phone:    +1 (204) 925 9000
Admin-Fax:      +1 (204) 888 1056

-- 

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

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######

From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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Brian Inglis (Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca) writes:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:31:11 GMT, Charles Richmond
> <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Does the .MB.ca give you a clue it might be Manitoba, possibly
> Winnipeg? If I have to try and remember all your (50) state and
> (???) university abbreviations, you can at least try to remember
> our (10) province/territory and (??) university abbreviations ;^>

  Over in alt.obituaries (a fun ng that I recently discovered, and
  is only 20% obits), I made reference to the fact that MO doesn't
  twig the state Missouri to mind.

  So for Manitoba, wouldn't MA make more sense?  Actually, being an
  Old Fart, I still like Man., Ont., etc.  Screw the postal OCRs,
  let them learn to read.

######

Message-ID: <3C766BED.16365D3E@yahoo.com>
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Brian Inglis wrote:
> 
... snip ...
> 
> Does the .MB.ca give you a clue it might be Manitoba, possibly
> Winnipeg? If I have to try and remember all your (50) state and
> (???) university abbreviations, you can at least try to remember
> our (10) province/territory and (??) university abbreviations ;^>

According to me the abbreviations are:

   PEI, NS, NB, PQ (or Que), Ont, Man, Alta, Sask, BC.

(note the absence of Nfld - Pre-Smallwood).  Nobody goes to the
Yukon or NWT.

>From which you can approximate the date of expatriation :-)

-- 
Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
   (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified)
   mailto:uce@ftc.gov  (for spambots to harvest)

######

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echomko@polaris.umuc.edu (Eric Chomko) writes:
> I actually worked on an IBM 5110 during summer break while in college for $$.
> Yep, I was doing some propgramming in BASIC for a community management firm.
> Later, I worked on an IBM 5100 while in college at a part time job. It was
> hard having first worked on a 5110 and then going to a 5100. 
> 
> I wouldn't actually call them 'portable', but more at 'desktop.'

You might not, but IBM did.  The nameplate of the IBM 5100 says "IBM 5100
Portable Computer".

######

From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:44:43 -0700
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On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:38:21 GMT, CBFalconer
<cbfalconer@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Brian Inglis wrote:
>> 
>... snip ...
>> 
>> Does the .MB.ca give you a clue it might be Manitoba, possibly
>> Winnipeg? If I have to try and remember all your (50) state and
>> (???) university abbreviations, you can at least try to remember
>> our (10) province/territory and (??) university abbreviations ;^>
>
>According to me the abbreviations are:
>
>   PEI, NS, NB, PQ (or Que), Ont, Man, Alta, Sask, BC.
>
>(note the absence of Nfld - Pre-Smallwood).  Nobody goes to the
>Yukon or NWT.

And obviously no one has heard of Nunavut -- and I can't count! 

>>From which you can approximate the date of expatriation :-)


-- 

Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

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######

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Subject: Re: IBM 5100 [Was: First DESKTOP Unix Box?]
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On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 05:07:33 GMT, Christopher Stacy <cstacy@swingandcircle.com> wrote:
>The IBM 5100!  
>I used one a few times back in the mid-1970s at Scientific Timesharing.

I got to use one while doing work at VaTech as an undergrad for dr J.A.N 
yes it was slow, apl on the 370/158 ran faster.  
........and i had a tek4014? (graphics!!!!) for the 370 terminal......... 

i also got to use apl on a 1500 at fairfield univ. 
i was under the impression the 5100 name at least was a reference or spoof. 
at the HS i used a 2751 via a ma.bell desk sized modem, 
fairfield U had modified 3270 types with apl char sets and light pens. 

later i was told the 1500 was one of 10 built, 
a modified 1130, mostly pipelines but some special pageing hardware too i think 
that was from dr gorsline, and i think the wheelers pointed me to a little more later, 

in the spirt of this thread, i think apl/360 coexisted with apl/1500,
 for i remember quick360? books near by the 1500 ones at my highschool, 
and i think i remember a apl/360  reference in one of them. 

given the 5100/1500 name closeness, 
is there anymore anyone cares to add to that comparison? 

i liked apl/1500... this was 1970 tho, i would have liked anything i found. 

Thnx