From: "John K.C." Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 22:45:31 +0800 Organization: Unconfigured Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: j35.bkj63.jaring.my X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-hub.siol.net!zur.uu.net!ash.uu.net!sac.uu.net!infeed.jaring.my!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99224 hi all, I need to do a project on the networking subject. A system must be produced. Can anyone suggest me a good topic? By the way, I have a thought to implement a firewall, but I have totally no idea what it is. can anyone let me know where can I get the simple personal firewall source code in java ? Thanks! John ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:48:48 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <0toe2a.1c1.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1011542402 nnrp-12:27186 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99226 According to John K.C. : > hi all, I need to do a project on the networking subject. A system must be > produced. Can anyone suggest me a good topic? > By the way, I have a thought to implement a firewall, but I have totally no > idea what it is. can anyone let me know where can I get the simple personal > firewall source code in java ? Probably a good start would be a thorough understanding of the SNA design, paying particular attention to the BSC/RJE facility. Some useful theorising on the requirements of firewalls will be discussed in Netview's approach to LPARs and CTCAs. Chris. ###### From: "Hank Oredson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <0toe2a.1c1.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:09:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.81.200.175 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1011557398 12.81.200.175 (Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:09:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:09:58 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99258 "Chris Hedley" wrote in message news:0toe2a.1c1.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > According to John K.C. : > > hi all, I need to do a project on the networking subject. A system must be > > produced. Can anyone suggest me a good topic? > > By the way, I have a thought to implement a firewall, but I have totally no > > idea what it is. can anyone let me know where can I get the simple personal > > firewall source code in java ? > > Probably a good start would be a thorough understanding of the SNA > design, paying particular attention to the BSC/RJE facility. Some > useful theorising on the requirements of firewalls will be discussed > in Netview's approach to LPARs and CTCAs. UDLC might be a good project also, with particular attention to terminal multiplexing via secondary handshake signals. -- ... Hank http://horedson.home.att.net ###### Message-ID: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> From: Ben Clifford Organization: HAWAGA.ORG.UK X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.5.2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 X-Trace: /Kkf2O3Z2eEQmfyNFQaJvU5h+8Cx0BXwXjtP/ytHMluUMM2DRSPAeLNTzTL5I3E6s3M5x55LCp5W!6G6X5pzAoABesdbz2lpXRbAgTqCO2khtKDJGqkoHuEWXM7jfwZlQUSKzPi0nUfJwTkU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:51:32 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:51:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!hub1.meganetnews.com!newsfeed.sjc.globix.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!131.119.28.146!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99254 "John K.C." wrote: > can anyone let me know where can I get the simple personal > firewall source code in java ? Java doesn't need a firewall, due to the excellent sandbox mechanism that its creators, Microsoft, put in place. Effectively what happens in the sandbox mechanism is that the grains of "sand" get caught in the internal mechanisms of any viruses or hackers who are trying to "drive" their way into your virtual machine - as others in AFC will be able to tell you, sand and computer programs just don't mix. -- Ben Clifford http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ GPG: 30F06950 webcam: http://barbarella.hawaga.org.uk/benc-cgi/watchers.cgi Do not ever send e-mail to: philip@hawaga.org.uk (seriously!) ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: 20 Jan 2002 23:09:21 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6uvgdw4qum.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1011564561 1280 10.0.3.2 (20 Jan 2002 22:09:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Jan 2002 22:09:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99273 Ben Clifford writes: > Effectively what happens in the sandbox mechanism is that the grains of > "sand" get caught in the internal mechanisms of any viruses or hackers > who are trying to "drive" their way into your virtual machine - as > others in AFC will be able to tell you, sand and computer programs just > don't mix. But Ben, you are not up to date! Programs run wonderfully with sand, you just need to first remove the oxigen and other impurites from it. The end result is called a transistor. And it can replace vacuum tubes. And it is even more reliable! No crashes due to burned out tubes any more! -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: philicorda Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> <6uvgdw4qum.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Lines: 14 User-Agent: KNode/0.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:26:57 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 80.3.228.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news11-gui.server.ntli.net 1011565657 80.3.228.136 (Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:27:37 GB ) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:27:37 GB Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.online.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news11-gui.server.ntli.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99361 > Programs run wonderfully with sand, you just need to first remove the > oxigen and other impurites from it. The end result is called a > transistor. And it can replace vacuum tubes. And it is even more > reliable! No crashes due to burned out tubes any more! Nah. It'll never catch on. I did once see a tic-tac-toe machine that used sand and a series of sheets of plastic with holes in. It always played first, and either won or drew every game. ###### From: aqk@infoaqk.com (A.Q. Tony King) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: 20 Jan 2002 19:39:42 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 24 Message-ID: <55833c5b.0201201939.2eabe6bf@posting.google.com> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> <6uvgdw4qum.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.236.166.18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1011584383 28529 127.0.0.1 (21 Jan 2002 03:39:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 2002 03:39:43 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99350 philicorda wrote in message news:... > > Programs run wonderfully with sand, you just need to first remove the > > oxigen and other impurites from it. The end result is called a > > transistor. And it can replace vacuum tubes. And it is even more > > reliable! No crashes due to burned out tubes any more! > > Nah. It'll never catch on. > > I did once see a tic-tac-toe machine that used sand and a series of sheets > of plastic with holes in. It always played first, and either won or drew > every game. Alas, you haven't addressed the issue of spam yet. This post's originator would be well advised to have an antispam mechanism as well as his Java firewall which (ideally) would coded in the Vienna implemntation of ALGOL. Luckily I have implemented such an anti-spam device- quite robust, and available for free download at http://www.rocler.qc.ca/aqk/spammer.htm My firewall, as well as an integrated firedog, fireplace and rudimentary fire-station, will probably be coded in Assembler/360, using of course the requisite Fortran and Macromedia Flash backends! Deliverables ready by late summer. Hang in there John KC! It will be well worth the wait! ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: 22 Jan 02 15:18:29 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <972.787T1466T9185095@sky.bus.com> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-409.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99392 In article ken@seefried.com (K.J. Seefried) writes: >Far be it from me to interfere with an ad homen attack on Microsoft, >but in so far as this attempted anti-Microsoft screed is concerned, >Java (and it's VM definition (sandbox, for those who need euphemisms)) >came from Sun Microsystems. Besides, Microsoft isn't all that interested in Java anymore. Not since Sun sued them for making proprietary extensions contrary to their licencing agreement, and the judge gave Microsoft 90 days to either bring their Java implementation into conformance with the standard or pull Windows 98 from the market. There. Historical accuracy _plus_ Microsoft bashing. Order has been restored to the universe. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: K.J. Seefried Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Reply-To: ken@seefried.com Message-ID: References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:35:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.98.101.45 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net 1011663302 24.98.101.45 (Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:35:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:35:02 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!cyclone.rdc-detw.rr.com!news.mw.mediaone.net!jxnws01!typhoon.jacksonville.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99548 On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 20:51:32 GMT, Ben Clifford wrote: >"John K.C." wrote: > >> can anyone let me know where can I get the simple personal >> firewall source code in java ? > >Java doesn't need a firewall, due to the excellent sandbox mechanism >that its creators, Microsoft, put in place. > >Effectively what happens in the sandbox mechanism is that the grains of >"sand" get caught in the internal mechanisms of any viruses or hackers >who are trying to "drive" their way into your virtual machine - as >others in AFC will be able to tell you, sand and computer programs just >don't mix. Far be it from me to interfere with an ad homen attack on Microsoft, but in so far as this attempted anti-Microsoft screed is concerned, Java (and it's VM definition (sandbox, for those who need euphemisms)) came from Sun Microsystems. Still...it's better than C#. Ken ###### Message-ID: <3C4CEA6F.4680958B@hawaga.org.uk> From: Ben Clifford Organization: HAWAGA.ORG.UK X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.5.2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> <6uvgdw4qum.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 X-Trace: /wmC6FyDt7gAOQdeO1Is1GUnU/AmseNdJbZjG/1BPwTf7k2e6Bps+iDjqviAccIiDHxVTUIemyhc!OSuPRFJ5BErbTrfn5a4vgwRqSESI/EYxBCyChx3Lr4F092/70igJvuRPbz5SoOS5gDo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:57:58 GMT Distribution: world Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:57:59 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99396 Neil Franklin wrote: > Programs run wonderfully with sand, you just need to first remove the > oxigen and other impurites from it. I thought the presence of (controlled) impurities was what made it all work? -- Ben Clifford http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ GPG: 30F06950 webcam: http://barbarella.hawaga.org.uk/benc-cgi/watchers.cgi Do not ever send e-mail to: philip@hawaga.org.uk (seriously!) ###### From: Ben Clifford Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:55:07 -0800 Organization: HAWAGA.ORG.UK Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3C4F313B.3E09F9D7@hawaga.org.uk> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lsanca1-ar27-4-63-184-089.vz.dsl.gtei.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: siamese.noc.ucla.edu 1011824651 15008 4.63.184.89 (23 Jan 2002 22:24:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ucla.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 22:24:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.5.2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.news.ucla.edu!barbarella.hawaga.org.uk!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99597 "K.J. Seefried" wrote: > Far be it from me to interfere with an ad homen attack on Microsoft, > but in so far as this attempted anti-Microsoft screed is concerned, > Java (and it's VM definition (sandbox, for those who need euphemisms)) > came from Sun Microsystems. Yes, I know. I was attempting to spread misinformation to people asking off-topic questions. I would have thought the next paragraph, about sand getting caught in the mechanisms, would have been sufficient clue for that. > Still...it's better than C#. As far as I can see, C# seems to be Java with two fundamental changes: 1) It's not called Java any more 2) they have removed the security mechanisms. -- Ben Clifford http://www.hawaga.org.uk/ben/ GPG: 30F06950 webcam: http://barbarella.hawaga.org.uk/benc-cgi/watchers.cgi Do not ever send e-mail to: philip@hawaga.org.uk (seriously!) ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 08:14:44 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 23 Message-ID: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> <3C4F313B.3E09F9D7@hawaga.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p0764.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1011895182 26446 194.134.202.1 (24 Jan 2002 17:59:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 17:59:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.5) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsgate.cistron.nl!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99633 On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:55:07 -0800 Ben Clifford wrote: BC> As far as I can see, C# seems to be Java with two fundamental changes: Spin is important. BC> 1) It's not called Java any more Very important that, replacing the image of coffee swilling hackers with that of sharp suited keen young consultants. Image is very important in software development. BC> 2) they have removed the security mechanisms. No security mechanism means no security bugs, reliability is improved. Security impedes efficiency so it is good to avoid it. -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: 24 Jan 2002 22:12:38 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 33 Message-ID: <6un0z3h2rd.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk> <3C4F313B.3E09F9D7@hawaga.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1011906758 518 10.0.3.2 (24 Jan 2002 21:12:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jan 2002 21:12:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99664 Ben Clifford writes: > "K.J. Seefried" wrote: > > > Still...it's better than C#. > > As far as I can see, C# seems to be Java with two fundamental changes: > 1) It's not called Java any more 2) they have removed the security > mechanisms. Actually C# is Java with about half of the dropped stuff an the path C to Java added back in. Of course this in the typically flakey MS tradition. For example: C# has got an preprocessor, which Java lacks. But while it can handle #include and #define and #ifdef, it can not handle #define to an actual string value, nor macro substitution, nor #if. So #defines are only boolean, not strings. Or other example: enums are back in (Java lacks them), but union is still out. And struct exists, but only for on-stack (auto) and not for dynamically allocaded data. Sort of the classical MS missing the target operation. Details: http://www.25hoursaday.com/CsharpVsJava.html -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:46:40 -0000 Message-ID: <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk><3C4F313B.3E09F9D7@hawaga.org.uk> <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: "Peter Ibbotson" NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1011952000 nnrp-02:15915 NO-IDENT mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Lines: 35 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.lakeview.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99734 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net... > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:55:07 -0800 > Ben Clifford wrote: > > BC> 2) they have removed the security mechanisms. > > No security mechanism means no security bugs, reliability is improved. > Security impedes efficiency so it is good to avoid it. > Could you provide a cite for lack of a security mechanism? As far as I know unmanaged (ie unsafe) code cannot be run directly from any nonlocal harddisc. This particularly causes problems for developers who like me have their "My Documents" residing on a local system. Seperate permissions are required to get to many items on a system. For example code downloaded from the internet or Local intranet does by default have permission to read the file system but not to write to it, non local internet applications do not get full UI permissions. Policies can be set to override this on a permachine/application basis. Note: I have not yet played with the security stuff, so this is mostly from a brief scan read of the docs so I very likely have misread them. Certainly saying there is no "Security" is untrue, I suspect the amount available is correct, whether the defaults are right, the implementation of security is correct or the user gets annoyed and turns off all the security is another question. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:01:42 -0000 Message-ID: <1011952902.16381.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3C4A6F63.7E160259@hawaga.org.uk><3C4F313B.3E09F9D7@hawaga.org.uk> <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: "Peter Ibbotson" NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1011952902 nnrp-02:16381 NO-IDENT mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.lakeview.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99736 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote in message news:20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net... > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 13:55:07 -0800 > Ben Clifford wrote: > > BC> As far as I can see, C# seems to be Java with two fundamental changes: > > Spin is important. > > BC> 1) It's not called Java any more > > Very important that, replacing the image of coffee swilling hackers with > that of sharp suited keen young consultants. Image is very important in software > development. See http://www.donbox.com/uk2001/front.jpg for a counter argument. "boxing" which is the process of turning value types in objects is reputedly named after Don Box since the .NET team was so upset at making his IUnknown numberplate obsolete. -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:26:31 -0500 Organization: Very Little on Mondays Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Xnews/L5 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101000 "Peter Ibbotson" wrote in news:1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk: >> No security mechanism means no security bugs, reliability is >> improved. Security impedes efficiency so it is good to avoid it. >> > > Could you provide a cite for lack of a security mechanism? It was written by Microsoft. ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:16:11 -0000 Message-ID: <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: "Peter Ibbotson" NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1013091373 nnrp-12:5518 NO-IDENT mailgate.lakeview.co.uk:62.49.243.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mailgate.lakeview.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101087 "Charles Shannon Hendrix" wrote in message news:Xns91ADBB1EC5C94nospamshannonnospamw@192.168.1.1... > "Peter Ibbotson" wrote in > news:1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk: > > >> No security mechanism means no security bugs, reliability is > >> improved. Security impedes efficiency so it is good to avoid it. > >> > > > > Could you provide a cite for lack of a security mechanism? > > It was written by Microsoft. > Not much of a cite, charles http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers -- Work peteri@lakeview.co.uk.plugh.org | remove magic word .org to reply Home peter@ibbotson.co.uk.plugh.org | I own the domain but theres no MX ###### From: Jeff Teunissen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Organization: Dusk To Dawn Computing Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3C63E62F.18A8EB0C@d2dc.net> References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US, en NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.245.2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1013180401 12.245.2.60 (Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:00:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:00:01 GMT Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:00:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101204 Peter Ibbotson wrote: [snip] > Not much of a cite, charles > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html > > Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers You mean "Miguel the Mouth". -- | Jeff Teunissen -=- Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing -=- deek @ d2dc.net | GPG: 1024D/9840105A 7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B 161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A | Core developer, The QuakeForge Project http://www.quakeforge.net/ | Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/ ###### From: "Peter Ibbotson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <3C63E62F.18A8EB0C@d2dc.net> Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: <97W88.750$0O6.4949216@news-text.cableinet.net> X-Trace: REai6gXa9LDitEqvaapkxcgFW1vzlJuWCmtlGmirH3IOTsra8d9IvkRZYAunopOtnHcH0qY3waRY!NPxkLAovnaOz8vUcUqjRiW5n X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: abuse@blueyonder.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:00:05 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 20:00:05 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!fu-berlin.de!opentransit.net!proxad.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!blueyonder!internal-news-hub.cableinet.net!news-text.cableinet.net.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101220 "Jeff Teunissen" wrote in message news:3C63E62F.18A8EB0C@d2dc.net... > Peter Ibbotson wrote: > > [snip] > > > Not much of a cite, charles > > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html > > > > Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers > > You mean "Miguel the Mouth". > Dunno, never met the guy. Possibly not the most popular developer at the moment though with the open source movement. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:49:54 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-134-9.btinternet.com X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1013201394 6148 213.1.134.9 (8 Feb 2002 20:49:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:49:54 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101218 Peter Ibbotson wrote in message news:1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk... [SNIP] > Not much of a cite, charles > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html > > Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers That article gave me the creeps. Historically it appears to me that Miguel takes decisions in the interests of his personal career development instead of the good of the community. Slanderous statement I know, but he shows *very* little consistency in his arguments, a sure sign that we're not getting the full picture. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: 08 Feb 2002 16:02:38 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1013209356 27698 128.123.64.113 (8 Feb 2002 23:02:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Feb 2002 23:02:36 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101244 "Rupert Pigott" writes: > Peter Ibbotson wrote in message > news:1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk... > [SNIP] > > Not much of a cite, charles > > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html > > > > Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers > > That article gave me the creeps. > > Historically it appears to me that Miguel takes decisions > in the interests of his personal career development instead > of the good of the community. Slanderous statement I know, > but he shows *very* little consistency in his arguments, > a sure sign that we're not getting the full picture. We'll have to see what happens. If there is a major revolt and Miguel loses control of Gnome, great. Otherwise, it looks like I'll have to learn about KDE. Of course, at this point Ximian's Gnome distribution is so far behind I'm not running any packages from their site anyway... so the revolt may already be happening. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: Jeff Teunissen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Organization: Dusk To Dawn Computing Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3C64BB38.7FFB375B@d2dc.net> References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <3C63E62F.18A8EB0C@d2dc.net> <97W88.750$0O6.4949216@news-text.cableinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US, en NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.245.2.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1013235002 12.245.2.60 (Sat, 09 Feb 2002 06:10:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 06:10:02 GMT Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 06:10:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101287 Peter Ibbotson wrote: > "Jeff Teunissen" wrote in message > news:3C63E62F.18A8EB0C@d2dc.net... [snip] > > You mean "Miguel the Mouth". > > Dunno, never met the guy. Possibly not the most popular developer at the > moment though with the open source movement. He says a *lot* of stupid stuff. Last time was basically "Unix sucks, let's make it more like Windows". -- | Jeff Teunissen -=- Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing -=- deek @ d2dc.net | GPG: 1024D/9840105A 7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B 161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A | Core developer, The QuakeForge Project http://www.quakeforge.net/ | Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/ ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:54:55 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101378 In article <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk>, Peter Ibbotson wrote: | "Charles Shannon Hendrix" wrote in message | news:Xns91ADBB1EC5C94nospamshannonnospamw@192.168.1.1... |> "Peter Ibbotson" wrote in |> news:1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk: |> |> >> No security mechanism means no security bugs, reliability is |> >> improved. Security impedes efficiency so it is good to avoid it. |> >> |> > |> > Could you provide a cite for lack of a security mechanism? |> |> It was written by Microsoft. |> | | Not much of a cite, charles I've never known more was needed. | http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html | | Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers Some of them might also eat rusty nails, so? ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:03:55 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 53 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101381 In article <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: | "Rupert Pigott" writes: | |> Peter Ibbotson wrote in message |> news:1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk... |> [SNIP] |> > Not much of a cite, charles |> > |> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html |> > |> > Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers |> |> That article gave me the creeps. |> |> Historically it appears to me that Miguel takes decisions |> in the interests of his personal career development instead |> of the good of the community. Slanderous statement I know, |> but he shows *very* little consistency in his arguments, |> a sure sign that we're not getting the full picture. | | We'll have to see what happens. If there is a major revolt and Miguel | loses control of Gnome, great. Otherwise, it looks like I'll have to | learn about KDE. Don't sweat it. I generally don't care about Gnome or KDE, but sometimes it would be nice to have a desktop for UNIX. To that end I switched to KDE and noticed some benefits: * much faster * better written, more consitent, it just looks like they are trying harder * far less political cruft to deal with * I can build it from source without sacrificing a chicken under a fool moon... * has a decent file manager... i mean, if you are going to use a GUI, it needs to be done right Having said that, I have yet to find a file manager for UNIX that I really like. If I'm going to use a GUI for files, I demand that it not be slow as molasses on a 700MHz Athlon system with 512MB of RAM, and a 32MB nVidia graphics system with assembly optimized drivers. Get the idea? I mean come on, if Microsoft can write a fast file manager, why isn't there one for UNIX? That Easel stuff for Gnome is just the pits. Looked _very_ pretty, but was horribly slow. The latest KDE build is much nicer, but still needs a speedup. In fact, I'm waiting for a speedup of around 10 times. It's that slow. Everything in Gnome and KDE is slow. I keep hearing it's because of C++ and various loader problems, but I don't know. We'll see I guess. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> From: Dowe Keller X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Date: 14 Feb 2002 02:51:48 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 77 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.218.147 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.218.147 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1013688158 206.169.218.147 (14 Feb 2002 04:02:38 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:101824 Charles Shannon Hendrix writes: > In article <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > | "Rupert Pigott" writes: > | > |> Peter Ibbotson wrote in message > |> news:1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk... > |> [SNIP] > |> > Not much of a cite, charles > |> > > |> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html > |> > > |> > Gives an opposite view from one of the Gnome developers > |> > |> That article gave me the creeps. > |> > |> Historically it appears to me that Miguel takes decisions > |> in the interests of his personal career development instead > |> of the good of the community. Slanderous statement I know, > |> but he shows *very* little consistency in his arguments, > |> a sure sign that we're not getting the full picture. > | > | We'll have to see what happens. If there is a major revolt and Miguel > | loses control of Gnome, great. Otherwise, it looks like I'll have to > | learn about KDE. > > > Don't sweat it. I generally don't care about Gnome or KDE, but > sometimes it would be nice to have a desktop for UNIX. To that > end I switched to KDE and noticed some benefits: > > * much faster > * better written, more consitent, it just looks like they are > trying harder > * far less political cruft to deal with > * I can build it from source without sacrificing a chicken under a > fool moon... > * has a decent file manager... i mean, if you are going to > use a GUI, it needs to be done right As opposed to what GNOME? Yea, one giant blubbering idiot more or less equals another, but if you decide you don't need all that stupid drag and drool stuff, you can learn to live quite comfortably with X and FVWM. > Having said that, I have yet to find a file manager for UNIX that I > really like. If I'm going to use a GUI for files, I demand that it > not be slow as molasses on a 700MHz Athlon system with 512MB of RAM, > and a 32MB nVidia graphics system with assembly optimized drivers. > Get the idea? Suggested Window Managers (Warning: I have been known to shamelessly self promote): 1) xterm + bash (don't laugh, it works better than most file managers 2) vsh - if you wan't something simple (relatively fast) and configurable through perl config scripts). grab the devel version (Requires PERL). 3) cfm - Russel Mull's offshoot of the above > I mean come on, if Microsoft can write a fast file manager, why isn't > there one for UNIX? That Easel stuff for Gnome is just the pits. > Looked _very_ pretty, but was horribly slow. The latest KDE build > is much nicer, but still needs a speedup. In fact, I'm waiting for a > speedup of around 10 times. It's that slow. > > Everything in Gnome and KDE is slow. I keep hearing it's because of > C++ and various loader problems, but I don't know. We'll see I guess. -- dowe@sierratel.com The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:23:48 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 74 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102035 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: > > Don't sweat it. I generally don't care about Gnome or KDE, but > > sometimes it would be nice to have a desktop for UNIX. To that > > end I switched to KDE and noticed some benefits: > > > > * much faster > > * better written, more consitent, it just looks like they are > > trying harder > > * far less political cruft to deal with > > * I can build it from source without sacrificing a chicken under a > > fool moon... > > * has a decent file manager... i mean, if you are going to > > use a GUI, it needs to be done right > > As opposed to what GNOME? Yea, one giant blubbering idiot more or less > equals another, I don't think the KDE guys are blubbering idiots. They seem, in fact, to be doing a pretty good job. I think Gnome let's too many politics get in the way, and they don't seem to be as practically minded. > but if you decide you don't need all that stupid drag and drool stuff, > you can learn to live quite comfortably with X and FVWM. I don't see why you think a very effective metaphor is stupid. I garantee I can do a lot of things faster than you can with a decent GUI. Others, I'm much faster with a command line. Who made this rule that it's an either-or proposition? I'm mostly a command-line oriented person, but for a lot of things it's more work than a gui. I pick what works best for me. > Suggested Window Managers (Warning: I have been known to shamelessly > self promote): > > 1) xterm + bash (don't laugh, it works better than most file managers I suppose you meant file managers, not "Window Managers". It works better than most poorly written file managers, but doesn't work as well for a lot of tasks as good ones. It's my most common method, but the other day I needed to sort out a lot of images. I loaded up the KDE manager, and since it shows all the pics as thumbnails I was able to do it a lot faster than I could with a command line. Now, if I need to quantize 1000 of those images, there is no way in I'll use a GUI for that when I can do it with a single command in the shell. > 3) cfm - Russel Mull's offshoot of the above Ah yes, yet another little GUI tool that doesn't play well with the others. That's the curse of X. Still, it looks interesting. I don't see it being anything like mutt though, which I use daily. Oh, ick... it requires a bunch of that Tcl crap. And there you were bitching about KDE and Gnome being bad... :) -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> From: Dowe Keller Date: 17 Feb 2002 00:12:30 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 81 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.158 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.219.158 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1013937681 206.169.219.158 (17 Feb 2002 01:21:21 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102010 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > In article , > Dowe Keller wrote: > > As opposed to what GNOME? Yea, one giant blubbering idiot more or less > > equals another, > > I don't think the KDE guys are blubbering idiots. They seem, in fact, > to be doing a pretty good job. I think Gnome let's too many politics > get in the way, and they don't seem to be as practically minded. I believe we have a misunderstanding here, I wasn't referring to the people who wrote these systems, but using the term 'giant blubbering idiot' as a metaphor for huge bloated fritterware. While I don't care for either GNOME or KDE, I would never insult the intelligence of their developers. > > but if you decide you don't need all that stupid drag and drool stuff, > > you can learn to live quite comfortably with X and FVWM. > > I don't see why you think a very effective metaphor is stupid. I don't see why it is so effective. It looks extemporaneous to me, and far from efficient, when you consider the amount of system resources it takes. > I garantee I can do a lot of things faster than you can with a decent GUI. > Others, I'm much faster with a command line. I can't think of anything one can do _faster_ with a GUI than with a command line. > Who made this rule that it's an either-or proposition? Not me, I use a GUI (X with FVWM) for approx. 80% of my computing time, and some of the programs I am most proud of are GUI programs. > I'm mostly a command-line oriented person, but for a lot of things it's > more work than a gui. I pick what works best for me. > > > Suggested Window Managers (Warning: I have been known to shamelessly > > self promote): > > > > 1) xterm + bash (don't laugh, it works better than most file managers > > I suppose you meant file managers, not "Window Managers". Yup, Had trouble context switching there. > It works better than most poorly written file managers, but doesn't work > as well for a lot of tasks as good ones. > > It's my most common method, but the other day I needed to sort out a > lot of images. > > I loaded up the KDE manager, and since it shows all the pics as thumbnails > I was able to do it a lot faster than I could with a command line. > > Now, if I need to quantize 1000 of those images, there is no way in I'll > use a GUI for that when I can do it with a single command in the shell. > > > 3) cfm - Russel Mull's offshoot of the above > > Ah yes, yet another little GUI tool that doesn't play well with the > others. That's the curse of X. > > Still, it looks interesting. I don't see it being anything like mutt > though, which I use daily. > > Oh, ick... it requires a bunch of that Tcl crap. And there you were > bitching about KDE and Gnome being bad... :) Tk != Tcl damnit! It doesn't contain a drop of Tcl (A rather horrible little language from what I've seen). Its coded in PERL (The mhost beautiful language known to mahn).;-) -- dowe@sierratel.com The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:10:14 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.191.122 X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1013969414 20387 213.122.191.122 (17 Feb 2002 18:10:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:10:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!btnet-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102045 Dowe Keller wrote in message news:m3r8nowd2z.fsf@krikkit.127.0.0.1... [SNIP] > As opposed to what GNOME? Yea, one giant blubbering idiot more or less > equals another, but if you decide you don't need all that stupid drag > and drool stuff, you can learn to live quite comfortably with X and > FVWM. You might want to check out XFCE, it's basically a lightweight toolbar. Runs pretty quickly across my 10Base2 LAN on crufty old hardware. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> From: Dowe Keller Date: 17 Feb 2002 19:59:21 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.218.218 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.169.218.218 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1014008859 206.169.218.218 (17 Feb 2002 21:07:39 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102098 "Rupert Pigott" writes: > Dowe Keller wrote in message > news:m3r8nowd2z.fsf@krikkit.127.0.0.1... > [SNIP] > > As opposed to what GNOME? Yea, one giant blubbering idiot more or less > > equals another, but if you decide you don't need all that stupid drag > > and drool stuff, you can learn to live quite comfortably with X and > > FVWM. > > You might want to check out XFCE, it's basically a lightweight > toolbar. Runs pretty quickly across my 10Base2 LAN on crufty > old hardware. :) Thanks, I've played with it, but Menuitis downloadable from my web page does everything I need in the way of a menubar and doesn't take up the resources. It should be noted that I am not running the latest greatest hardware, so what to me may seem a horrendously bloated pig of a program may be zippy to someone with the latest 300MHz 64MB speed demon. -- dowe@sierratel.com The two most common things in the Universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:23:06 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 106 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagator-maxim!news-in.spamkiller.net!newsfeed.fast.net!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!news.misty.com!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102076 In article , Dowe Keller wrote: > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > I believe we have a misunderstanding here, I wasn't referring to the > people who wrote these systems, but using the term 'giant blubbering > idiot' as a metaphor for huge bloated fritterware. While I don't care > for either GNOME or KDE, I would never insult the intelligence of their > developers. OK. I actually do think some of the Gnome people are a bit off, but not as a general rule. But I don't think KDE is bloated fritterware either. >> > but if you decide you don't need all that stupid drag and drool stuff, >> > you can learn to live quite comfortably with X and FVWM. >> >> I don't see why you think a very effective metaphor is stupid. > > I don't see why it is so effective. It looks extemporaneous to me, > and far from efficient, when you consider the amount of system > resources it takes. Well, it's been effective for an awful lot of people. For one thing, on a lot of tasks its faster. I can keep a lot more context graphically for certain jobs. For others the command-line is better. Also, there is no reason for it to take a lot of system resources. That many of them do is not the fault of GUI systems, just the way they are written. Also, you are always going to use significant resources to build a GUI framework. Same for any other type of framework where the goal is to prevent so much reinventing of the wheel. I don't think the average X app with it's 99% redundent code is that much better of a way of doing things. I just wish we would spend more time making the GUI system code smaller than we currently do. >> I garantee I can do a lot of things faster than you can with a decent GUI. >> Others, I'm much faster with a command line. > > I can't think of anything one can do _faster_ with a GUI than with a > command line. There are a LOT of things you can do faster with a GUI, and more than a few things you cannot do with a command line at all. I usually can keep up with more separate tasks with a GUI file manager, especially if it allows extension with shell commands and when used in conjunction with a command line. Another big win for those of us who have to type a lot already, is that you can take a break for awhile sometimes. I like how KDE puts thumbnails of various files on display, making quick sorts of various files pretty easy. With a command line it's a bit harder. It's when you are sorting through tons of files that a command line is better, although usually a shell script will do you more good than typing if you are going to do the task more than once. I'd like to see UNIX file managers do more to integrate shell scripts. >> Who made this rule that it's an either-or proposition? > > Not me, I use a GUI (X with FVWM) for approx. 80% of my computing time, > and some of the programs I am most proud of are GUI programs. OK... it just sounded like a general condemnation of GUI interfaces, a large part of which are based on drag-and-drop (which you called drag-n-drool) or concepts very closely related. X with FVWM though, is not a GUI. It's just a library, display manger, and a window manager. I generally expect a GUI is a bit more comprehensive. FVWM does have a GUI, but unfortunately it's different from the one used by your X apps, each of which is very likely also different from one another. I hate using programs, all of which have totally different key bindings and UI elements. I think it should be possible to at least make things work the same, even if they do use redundant code and libraries. >> Oh, ick... it requires a bunch of that Tcl crap. And there you were >> bitching about KDE and Gnome being bad... :) > > Tk != Tcl damnit! It doesn't contain a drop of Tcl (A rather > horrible little language from what I've seen). Its coded in PERL (The > mhost beautiful language known to mahn).;-) Oops... my bad. I have a hard time accepting even Tk though, because of it's association. Painful memories. I once had the misfortune of programming a project in TclMotif, and I still twitch sometimes. Sometimes we switched to Tcl/Tk. (twitch twitch twitch) ###### From: Charles Shannon Hendrix Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:25:43 -0500 Organization: Too Much Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1011952000.15915.0.nnrp-02.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1013091373.5518.0.nnrp-12.3e31f35a@news.demon.co.uk> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: shannon@nospam.widomaker.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!escape.shannon.net!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102077 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: >> As opposed to what GNOME? Yea, one giant blubbering idiot more or less >> equals another, but if you decide you don't need all that stupid drag >> and drool stuff, you can learn to live quite comfortably with X and >> FVWM. > > You might want to check out XFCE, it's basically a lightweight > toolbar. Runs pretty quickly across my 10Base2 LAN on crufty > old hardware. :) I'll second that. It's pretty nice, though I generally prefer Window Maker if I'm going to use just a window manager and a random sampling of applications. I think XFCE would be great if it had a NeXT-like file manager. I would like to see one like that also add the ability to script it with Bourne shell. Like it would be nice to lasso a bunch of files and apply a custom filter to them, or do a copy-through-script command, etc. ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:26:59 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1bheorwp9t.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.122.198.239 X-Trace: paris.btinternet.com 1014053219 978 213.122.198.239 (18 Feb 2002 17:26:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:26:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102113 Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote in message news:slrna713p6.7jv.shannon@daydream.shannon.net... [SNIP] > I don't think the average X app with it's 99% redundent code is that > much better of a way of doing things. Err, I am struggling to see how X-apps have 99% redundant code... I have written one or two of them in my time, nothing special though, just little things. :) > I just wish we would spend more time making the GUI system code smaller > than we currently do. Likewise... I have looked at this, and for a given set of features there's only so much you can do. :( [SNIP] Cheers, Rupert ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:10:20 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 58 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!lnsnews.lns.cornell.edu!paradoxa.ogoense.net!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102436 In article , Rupert Pigott wrote: > Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote in message > news:slrna713p6.7jv.shannon@daydream.shannon.net... > [SNIP] > > I don't think the average X app with it's 99% redundent code is that > > much better of a way of doing things. > > Err, I am struggling to see how X-apps have 99% redundant > code... I have written one or two of them in my time, > nothing special though, just little things. :) They all have their own menu code, keystroke handlers, etc. You basically roll your own each time, or you use a toolkit like Athena. I have probably a dozen different and redundant X widget sets on my computer, when functionally, only one is really needed. > > I just wish we would spend more time making the GUI system code smaller > > than we currently do. > > Likewise... I have looked at this, and for a given set > of features there's only so much you can do. :( Well... I think we could actually do quite a bit. I was amazed one time when I played a game on a Mac that I'd seen on a PC. The Mac in question was a fraction of the power of the PC system, yet the game was smoother and faster on the Mac. When the programmers ported to the Mac, they managed to shrink code that a lot of people thought was really great stuff. I think that a lot of GUI code is like that. Now, some things, there is no way around. For example, Mac OSX is getting a lot of flack for memory use. However, it's mostly a matter of the particular way they have chosen to handle windows. Each one is a full image map, and given 24-bit or better color, the memory use adds up pretty quickly, as does the bandwidth needed to move it around. > [SNIP] > > Cheers, > Rupert > > -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: 22 Feb 2002 21:13:18 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <1bu1s8x2ch.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1014437596 7497 128.123.64.113 (23 Feb 2002 04:13:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Feb 2002 04:13:16 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!feedme.news.mediaways.net!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!64.245.249.51!sfo2-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102386 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > > > > I just wish we would spend more time making the GUI system code smaller > > > than we currently do. > > > > Likewise... I have looked at this, and for a given set > > of features there's only so much you can do. :( > > Well... I think we could actually do quite a bit. After watching the evolution of the GTK+ widget set over the last few years, I'm convinced it's hopeless. It isn't code bloat, it's feature bloat. A widget set either becomes big and unwieldy, or remains a marginal little underused library like fltk. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: NEED HELP!!!URGENT!!!!!!!! Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 23:02:30 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <20020124081444.54cdbfec.steveo@eircom.net> <1bu1s8x2ch.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 26 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:102518 In article <1bu1s8x2ch.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu>, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: > shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > > > > > > I just wish we would spend more time making the GUI system code smaller > > > > than we currently do. > > > > > > Likewise... I have looked at this, and for a given set > > > of features there's only so much you can do. :( > > > > Well... I think we could actually do quite a bit. > > After watching the evolution of the GTK+ widget set over the last few > years, I'm convinced it's hopeless. It isn't code bloat, it's feature > bloat. A widget set either becomes big and unwieldy, or remains a > marginal little underused library like fltk. The main problem is that they don't build on base features, aka the UNIX philosopy, and instead want to make it one huge monolithic mess. I don't mind the features, but a lot of them could be divorced for the base system and added as the user sees fit. -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com