From: "Keith F. Lynch" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Date: 15 Jan 2002 21:33:59 -0500 Organization: United Individualist Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C3FBA4B.4692D545@yahoo.com> <4cv54ukciksg06vj8sfv79464bf9334b7o@4ax.com> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1011148440 5887 166.84.1.3 (16 Jan 2002 02:34:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jan 2002 02:34:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:98930 Brian Inglis wrote: > Did early Unix ed. or a predecessor (ITS, CTSS, Multics?) allow > up to 12 RAD50 (64 bits) or SIXBIT (72 bits) chars for a filename > with an (optional?) embedded dot? Dennis Ritchie wrote: > I don't know about ITS. ITS file names looked like this: MC: GUEST2; KFL MAIL The (optional) machine name, followed by a colon, the (optional) directory name, followed by a semicolon, then the two parts of the file name itself. All parts could be up to six characters, but had to be in the six bit subset of ASCII (space bar through underscore). No lowercase or control characters. Presumably this was so that each file name component would fit into one 36 bit word. No hierarchical directories. I don't recall whether dots were allowed. Certainly they weren't routinely used. I recall that files that guests weren't supposed to be snooping in were sometimes given a name starting with space bar, which made them hard to read since space bar was the separator. It would be like a Unix filename with a slash in it. -- Keith F. Lynch - kfl@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/ I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread. ###### From: dpeschel@eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Date: 18 Jan 2002 12:42:22 GMT Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C3FBA4B.4692D545@yahoo.com> <4cv54ukciksg06vj8sfv79464bf9334b7o@4ax.com> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eskimo.com X-Trace: eskinews.eskimo.com 1011357742 22079 204.122.16.13 (18 Jan 2002 12:42:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@eskimo.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Jan 2002 12:42:22 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.eskimo.com!eskimo.com!dpeschel Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99079 In article , Keith F. Lynch wrote: >ITS file names looked like this: > >MC: GUEST2; KFL MAIL > >The (optional) machine name, followed by a colon, the (optional) >directory name, followed by a semicolon, then the two parts of the >file name itself. All parts could be up to six characters, but had >to be in the six bit subset of ASCII (space bar through underscore). >No lowercase or control characters. Presumably this was so that each >file name component would fit into one 36 bit word. It's not really the machine name, it's the device name. Originally it was something like DSK: and there was no cross-machine access; later they added the cross-machine access. The space after the : and ; is optional. The space after the first part of the filename is not optional ("KFLMAIL" would be truncated to six characters and you would need a new second part). An interesting wrinkle in the syntax: if a third word (without a colon or semicolon after it) appeared, it became the device name. GUEST2; KFL MAIL MC I don't know what would happen with contradictory device names: AI: GUEST2; KFL MAIL MC And then we have versionn numbers. Rather than adding another field the ITS people just used the second half of the name. If the second half ends in digits it's incremented in the sensible way; if it ends in letters things get more bizarre. "MAIL" would become "MAIM". Some files on the system started out with two-part names (like "TECO ORDER", the commands for TECO listed in order) which became more cryptic when version numbers were added ("TECORD nnn"). I've never used ITS, just read through the manual and looked through the archives of files. >No hierarchical directories. Right. So the conversion from a concept (like "the commands for TECO listed in order") to a directory and file name is not very consistent. The conversion between related files is even worse (the TECO executable, source, documentation files, etc.). >I don't recall whether dots were allowed. Certainly they weren't >routinely used. Some directory names like .INFO. and .TECO. have dots. (Incidentally, GNU tar on Widnwos NT will create files with strange characters, but then you can't _do_ anything with them. I wish the new file-creation functions were available everywhere!) >I recall that files that guests weren't supposed to be snooping in >were sometimes given a name starting with space bar, which made them >hard to read since space bar was the separator. It would be like a >Unix filename with a slash in it. With fixed-length filenames, you can easily have a "get a bunch of octal digits and turn them into part of a filename" syntax. TOPS-10 does, and ITS might also. Obviously the guests weren't supposed to know that. And speaking of things guests weren't supposed to know, the Jargon File says (under "security through obscurity") One instance of deliberate security through obscurity is recorded; the command to allow patching the running ITS system (escape escape control-R) echoed as $$^D. If you actually typed alt alt ^D, that set a flag that would prevent patching the system even if you later got it right. -- Derek ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher Stacy Subject: Re: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Message-ID: Sender: cstacy@BONK Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 01:27:28 GMT References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C3FBA4B.4692D545@yahoo.com> <4cv54ukciksg06vj8sfv79464bf9334b7o@4ax.com> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b075.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Lines: 67 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99248 >>>>> On 18 Jan 2002 12:42:22 GMT, Derek Peschel ("Derek") writes: Derek> The space after the : and ; is optional. Derek> The space after the first part of the filename is not optional Derek> ("KFLMAIL" would be truncated to six characters and you would Derek> need a new second part). An interesting wrinkle in the syntax: Derek> if a third word (without a colon or semicolon after it) appeared, Derek> it became the device name. GUEST2; KFL MAIL MC The syntax (with the colon and semicolon and space) was just the user interface used by some programs, notably DDT. That heurisric about the device name is only a DDT thing. Another user interface feature, but which was recognized by many programs (including the ones that used the standard filename-reading library routines) was ^X and ^X. Those characters could be entered in place of a filename component to represent the default FN1 and FN2, respectively: :PRINT FOO BAR :PRINT ^Y ^X ==> same as BAR FOO But those are all user interface features. Filenames were passed to the system as a block of four sixbit words always in the correct order; seperator characters and junk don't enter into it. The exception is "long filenames" which were passed as ASCII strings. Derek> And then we have versionn numbers. I think file version numbers were invented on ITS. When TOPS-20 and VMS came along about a decade later, they did picked up the idea (and improved on it by making it seperate from the "type"), as of course did the various Lisp Machine file systems. Note that version numbers feature was of the file system, not implemented by the application programs or libraries. A poor substitute is the similar feature implemented in GNU EMACS, which runs on operating systems that don't have this feature. Derek> I've never used ITS, just read through the manual Derek> and looked through the archives of files. >> No hierarchical directories. Derek> Right. So the conversion from a concept (like "the commands for TECO Derek> listed in order") to a directory and file name is not very consistent. Derek> The conversion between related files is even worse (the TECO executable, Derek> source, documentation files, etc.). I think what you're trying to say is that people did not pick good file names, but I would disagree with that opinion, and I don't see what that was to do with directory structures anyway. Derek> I've never used ITS, just read through the manual and looked Derek> through the archives of files. Derek> With fixed-length filenames, you can easily have a "get a Derek> bunch of octal digits and turn them into part of a filename" Derek> syntax. TOPS-10 does, and ITS might also. Obviously the Derek> guests weren't supposed to know that. I think I already explained that spaces in filenames didn't have anything to do with guests, and that such names are easy to type. I can't figure out what you're talking about with octal digits. ###### From: "Keith F. Lynch" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Date: 22 Jan 2002 23:32:35 -0500 Organization: United Individualist Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix2.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 1011760355 7437 166.84.1.2 (23 Jan 2002 04:32:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jan 2002 04:32:35 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99427 Christopher Stacy wrote: > So, mostly, really, files that you didn't want people reading > were not stored on ITS. ITS did not implement any kind of file > protection, and everybody knew that anyone could freely access > anyone else's files. Yes. Anyone on the net could not only read them, but alter or delete them as well. And ITS machines were on the net as late as May 1990. -- Keith F. Lynch - kfl@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/ I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher Stacy Subject: Re: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Message-ID: Sender: cstacy@BONK Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:54:15 GMT References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b159.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99496 >>>>> On 22 Jan 2002 23:32:35 -0500, Keith F Lynch ("Keith") writes: Keith> Christopher Stacy wrote: >> So, mostly, really, files that you didn't want people reading >> were not stored on ITS. ITS did not implement any kind of file >> protection, and everybody knew that anyone could freely access >> anyone else's files. Keith> Yes. Anyone on the net could not only read them, but alter or delete Keith> them as well. And ITS machines were on the net as late as May 1990. Back in those days, there was no IP address spoofing, and we did from time to time implement some minimal security based on rejecting connections from certain hosts or, for example, restricting which FTP server operations would be permitted from certain hosts. But mostly we didn't have problems with that sort of thing. It was a very different age. ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher Stacy Subject: Re: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Message-ID: Sender: cstacy@BONK Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 08:55:55 GMT References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b159.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Lines: 5 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.radix.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99497 >>>>> On 22 Jan 2002 23:32:35 -0500, Keith F Lynch ("Keith") writes: Keith> And ITS machines were on the net as late as May 1990. There are ITS machines on the net right now! ###### From: Dragonmaster Lou Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:13:30 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Brown University Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: techhouse.brown.edu X-Trace: saturn.services.brown.edu 1011806010 20456 128.148.185.4 (23 Jan 2002 17:13:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@nntp.brown.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:13:30 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!feed.cgocable.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!oshean-news.uri.edu!nntp.brown.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99537 In article , Christopher Stacy wrote: >>>>>> On 22 Jan 2002 23:32:35 -0500, Keith F Lynch ("Keith") writes: > Keith> And ITS machines were on the net as late as May 1990. > > There are ITS machines on the net right now! There are!? I read somewhere the last ITS machine was shut down around 1990 or so? -- -------------------- http://www.techhouse.org/lou ---------------------- "Dragonmaster Lou" | "Searching for a distant star, heading off to lou at techhouse org | Iscandar, leaving all we love behind, who knows Tech House Alum | what dangers we'll find..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Christopher Stacy Subject: Re: ITS file names (was Re: School Help) Message-ID: Sender: cstacy@BONK Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 21:00:08 GMT References: <3c3d490e.6861227@news.ocis.net> <3C43AFB6.D88F212@bell-labs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp0b187.std.com Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.radix.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!world!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:99623 >>>>> On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 17:13:30 +0000 (UTC), Dragonmaster Lou ("Dragonmaster") writes: Dragonmaster> In article , Christopher Stacy wrote: >>>>>>> On 22 Jan 2002 23:32:35 -0500, Keith F Lynch ("Keith") writes: Keith> And ITS machines were on the net as late as May 1990. >> >> There are ITS machines on the net right now! Dragonmaster> There are!? I read somewhere the last ITS machine was Dragonmaster> shut down around 1990 or so? Sort of. When I logged into the ITS machine in my living room a few weeks ago, it said: Last login was 19 April 1990 06:02-EDT on TTY 12 from 1:7.0.22.112