From: aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Relays Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:30:36 GMT Organization: Aceware Programming Pty Ltd Message-ID: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: i197-039.nv.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1008199523 8023 203.59.197.39 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96501 I have always had a fantasy of building a relay machine. I can get my hands on either: A) 450 dry reed relays out of a dismantled pabx - presently driven by 7400 series logic - part number Wabash 750-4-2 K6 These are all pcb mounted and would need to be moved to veroboard - I guess OR B) 200 large relays from a rail system for raising and lowering boom gates ( I think) The one sample relay has 4 contacts n/o, 4 contacts n/c Inspection sticker says: AEI-General Signal Ltd London Type ZS561/1B Spec: BR930 Code: 003 Cont: 12F 4B Volts: 50 Tested: 10/5/71 The relays weigh about a pound each with base dimension approx 1.5 inch x 3.5 inch and height 5 inch in a very handsome perspex casing. These guys really look the part and I am guessing that even though they might be from the early seventies their design would be very similar to relays in the 50's Could I build anything with this lot ? eg a serial adder and a couple of registers. Can anyone point me to any sites on old relay machines. We do have some electro mechanical paper tape punches and readers in our collection. Any comments on chances of creating anything useful ? many thanks Tony Epton Curator Australian Computer Museum Society - Western Australia ###### Message-ID: <3C1914CB.AB1A0D3C@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:55:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.127.202.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1008269707 204.127.202.214 (Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:55:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:55:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96609 Tony Epton wrote: > > I have always had a fantasy of building a relay machine. > > I can get my hands on either: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Any comments on chances of creating anything useful ? > When I was in the third grade in elementary school (long ago), we took a tour of the phone company central office. They had a little "computer" that would play tic-tac-toe...and it was a relay machine. The display was *not* a CRT, but a little fixed thing that had two lights for each square...one for "X" and one for "O". I am *sure* that this was a relay machine. You could probably build such a thing with the number of relays you have... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C190803.DFBC413@agora.stm.it> From: Francesco Bonomi X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:59:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.27.24.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@libero.it X-Trace: news.infostrada.it 1008273557 151.27.24.33 (Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:59:17 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:59:17 MET Organization: [Infostrada] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!news.infostrada.it!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96541 Have you seen the post by of nov. 9th by Peter D. Hiscocks and following discussions? He gave this link to a 4-bit relay counter http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~phiscock/ (under "White papers") Francesco Tony Epton wrote: > I have always had a fantasy of building a relay machine. > > I can get my hands on either: > > A) 450 dry reed relays out of a dismantled pabx - presently driven by > 7400 series logic - part number Wabash 750-4-2 K6 > These are all pcb mounted and would need to be moved to veroboard - I > guess > > OR > > B) 200 large relays from a rail system for raising and lowering boom > gates ( I think) > The one sample relay has 4 contacts n/o, 4 contacts n/c > Inspection sticker says: > AEI-General Signal Ltd London > Type ZS561/1B > Spec: BR930 > Code: 003 > Cont: 12F 4B > Volts: 50 > Tested: 10/5/71 > The relays weigh about a pound each with base dimension approx 1.5 > inch x 3.5 inch and height 5 inch in a very handsome perspex casing. > These guys really look the part and I am guessing that even though > they might be from the early seventies their design would be very > similar to relays in the 50's > > Could I build anything with this lot ? eg a serial adder and a couple > of registers. > > Can anyone point me to any sites on old relay machines. > We do have some electro mechanical paper tape punches and readers in > our collection. > > Any comments on chances of creating anything useful ? > > many thanks > Tony Epton > > Curator > Australian Computer Museum Society - Western Australia ###### From: jsavard@ecn.aSBLOKb.caNADA.invalid (John Savard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays Message-ID: <3c1916fd.4078945@news.powersurfr.com> References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 55 Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:14:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.109.100.252 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 1008278049 24.109.100.252 (Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:14:09 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:14:09 MST Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!cy1!cy2!newsfeed.shawcable.com!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96619 On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:30:36 GMT, aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) wrote, in part: >I have always had a fantasy of building a relay machine. I saw a site with an article about the LGP-30 computer recently. It had only about 180 vacuum tubes in it, but over a thousand diodes. Thus, given the wired-OR capability of relay logic, it is _possible_ one might be able to build a computer of some kind. In fact, I'm fairly confident you could build the arithmetic and control unit of a simple computer with only a few hundred relays. But for the result to act like a useful computer, you would need enough memory to do something useful - and that would be a problem. As a demonstration project, you could perhaps do this much, based on the Harvard Mark I: - take two paper tape readers as used with old teleprinters - have the machine read its instructions from one paper tape, - have a conditional and unconditional instruction for *switching paper tape readers*; one tape reader might contain a tape loop, and that would be a "subroutine". Then you would only need, say, three banks of relays for registers, and your "computer" could execute some simple but "real" programs. Your instruction set might look like this: load (A from either B or C) store (A to either B or C) add (B to A, result in A) and (B to A, result in A) increment A invert A switch tapes switch tapes if A is zero Naturally, if one had more than two "memory" locations, and more than two tape readers, one could do more. But this is enough to demonstrate what a computer can do, and how it works. An instruction to "load A with constant" would probably be worth having as well. Assuming five-channel tape, and four-bit arithmetic, that would be simple to arrange. The next addition would be a shift instruction, particularly a right shift. John Savard http://plaza.powersurfr.com/jsavard/index.html ###### From: "Donald Tees" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> <3c1916fd.4078945@news.powersurfr.com> Subject: Re: Relays Lines: 77 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2479.0006 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2479.0006 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:52:24 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.93.140.168 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sympatico.ca X-Trace: news20.bellglobal.com 1008280150 65.93.140.168 (Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:49:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:49:10 EST Organization: Bell Sympatico Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news1.tor.metronet.ca!webster!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf2.bellglobal.com!news20.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96622 "John Savard" wrote in message news:3c1916fd.4078945@news.powersurfr.com... > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:30:36 GMT, aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) > wrote, in part: > > >I have always had a fantasy of building a relay machine. > > I saw a site with an article about the LGP-30 computer recently. It > had only about 180 vacuum tubes in it, but over a thousand diodes. > Thus, given the wired-OR capability of relay logic, it is _possible_ > one might be able to build a computer of some kind. > > In fact, I'm fairly confident you could build the arithmetic and > control unit of a simple computer with only a few hundred relays. But > for the result to act like a useful computer, you would need enough > memory to do something useful - and that would be a problem. > > As a demonstration project, you could perhaps do this much, based on > the Harvard Mark I: > > - take two paper tape readers as used with old teleprinters > > - have the machine read its instructions from one paper tape, > > - have a conditional and unconditional instruction for *switching > paper tape readers*; one tape reader might contain a tape loop, and > that would be a "subroutine". > > Then you would only need, say, three banks of relays for registers, > and your "computer" could execute some simple but "real" programs. > > Your instruction set might look like this: > > load (A from either B or C) > store (A to either B or C) > add (B to A, result in A) > and (B to A, result in A) > increment A > invert A > switch tapes > switch tapes if A is zero > > Naturally, if one had more than two "memory" locations, and more than > two tape readers, one could do more. But this is enough to demonstrate > what a computer can do, and how it works. > > An instruction to "load A with constant" would probably be worth > having as well. > > Assuming five-channel tape, and four-bit arithmetic, that would be > simple to arrange. > > The next addition would be a shift instruction, particularly a right > shift. > Back in the early to mid seventies, I spent a few years replacing old relay logic with PDP-8's. We had industrial control panels with thousands of relays in them, and often the PDP-8 sat between two such panels, getting data from one and forwarding "states" to the next. One thing I learnt early in the game is that over-clocking relay logic can be as dangerous as over-clocking a computer. Seeing (and hearing) 5,000 relays or so trying to turn off and on at even ten Hz. is quite a remarkable experience. About like 5000 selectric typewriters confined into a six foot space. With the lights out, the sight of them welding their contacts together is amusing, although short lived as the fuses go pretty quickly. Start with a two second cycle time, and work your way up. You may get to 1 hertz. Donald ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:52:29 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> <3C1914CB.AB1A0D3C@ev1.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVazdmDJw4O1/i5aOa0r3mJEF7W5rdTUEVjjF0zHeaRauO2kGWMPY2JB X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 23:53:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96802 On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:55:07 GMT, Charles Richmond wrote: >When I was in the third grade in elementary school (long ago), >we took a tour of the phone company central office. They had a >little "computer" that would play tic-tac-toe...and it was a >relay machine. The display was *not* a CRT, but a little fixed >thing that had two lights for each square...one for "X" and one >for "O". I am *sure* that this was a relay machine. You could >probably build such a thing with the number of relays you have... I built one of those once. I used 2 old crossbar switches. I also once build a 4 digit adding machine using 5 rotary switches of kind. 4 for the adder, 1 to move the pluses coming from a modified rotary dial to each adder. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### Message-ID: <3C1D44FA.F7F49726@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> <3c1916fd.4078945@news.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:09:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.127.202.212 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52 1008544189 204.127.202.212 (Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:09:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 23:09:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.twtelecom.net.MISMATCH!nnxp1.twtelecom.net!news-east.rr.com!wn2feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96957 John Savard wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:30:36 GMT, aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) > wrote, in part: > > >I have always had a fantasy of building a relay machine. > > I saw a site with an article about the LGP-30 computer recently. It > had only about 180 vacuum tubes in it, but over a thousand diodes. > Thus, given the wired-OR capability of relay logic, it is _possible_ > one might be able to build a computer of some kind. > > In fact, I'm fairly confident you could build the arithmetic and > control unit of a simple computer with only a few hundred relays. But > for the result to act like a useful computer, you would need enough > memory to do something useful - and that would be a problem. > Some of the early machines built by Konrad Zuse in Germany in the 1940's had *mechanical* memory. The memory was *not* made up of relays. There was a little bit about this in Zuse's autobiography. I(f you have access to a sheet metal shop, you *might* be able to constuct such a memory for your relay machine. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 03:58:53 GMT Organization: Aceware Programming Pty Ltd Message-ID: <3c1d6cf3.11878981@news.iinet.net.au> References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: i218-230.nv.iinet.net.au X-Trace: news.iinet.net.au 1008561218 18501 203.59.218.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!out.nntp.be!propagator-SanJose!in.nntp.be!news-in-sanjose!newsfeed.iinet.net.au!news.iinet.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96933 Many thanks for all your responses Your information has given me enough confidence to go ahead and buy the relays. They will cost me $AUS 1 each - but they look like such classics that I am sure they will be worth it. many thanks Tony Epton Curator Australian Computer Museum Society - Western Australia ###### Message-ID: <3c1d79a4_2@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com> From: Don Taylor Subject: Re: Relays Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> <3c1d6cf3.11878981@news.iinet.net.au> User-Agent: tin/1.5.9-20010723 ("Chord of Souls") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/4.3-STABLE (i386)) NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1 Date: 16 Dec 2001 22:50:45 -0600 Lines: 39 X-Comments: This message was posted through Binaries.net X-Comments2: IMPORTANT: Binaries.net does not condone, nor support, spam or any illegal or copyrighted postings. X-Report: Please report abuse to Organization: Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.nuthinbutnews.com!propagator2-austin!propagator!feed2.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!news-in-austin.nuthinbutnews.com!corp-goliath.newsgroups.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96941 Tony Epton wrote: > Many thanks for all your responses > Your information has given me enough confidence to go ahead and buy > the relays. > They will cost me $AUS 1 each - but they look like such classics that > I am sure they will be worth it. The Simon from the late 1950's or mid 1960's was a trainer back in the days when the ordinary school had no hope of finding the hundred thousand dollars (or more) needed to buy any sort of computer. It was more or less a complete computer built from relays. There were plans published. It was (roughly) described in a book that I have a copy of buried here somewhere. But getting a copy of the real plans looks like it would be the only sane way to proceed. The description in the book showed that it was built with about 130 relays, most multiple pole double throw. And it used a ten pole ten throw telephone switch as an integral part of the sequencer. It had registers, it had instructions, it had a simple state display. The only thing it did not do was store the program internally, there simply were not enough relays available to implement storage for the program in addition to storage for the data. Thus, the program was fed in from the outside as it ran. If anyone can provide hints about where the actual plans might be found I'd be happy to try to return the favor somehow. I could, for example, provide a summary description of the relays used in the construction or perhaps something else that someone would find useful. If you search the web you can find references to Simon. At one point it was judged to be the first "personal computer." But some of the description on the web seems to contradict (in small ways) what the author/inventor wrote in his book. I suppose this means I have to find the book here now. ______________________________________________________________________________ Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net ###### From: "Phil Weldon" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 00:53:54 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 8 Message-ID: <9vuim6$96v$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> Reply-To: "Phil Weldon" NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.56.a7.30 X-Server-Date: 21 Dec 2001 05:52:06 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mindspring.com!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:97313 Check for an image of the control panel back for a Mercury orbital capsule. Hundreds of relays. Check the Smithsonian Institution site or a NASA site. Course you'll still need a launch vehicle. Phil Weldon, pweldon@mindspring.com ###### From: David Powell Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Relays Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 20:19:45 +0000 Reply-To: ddotpowell@netscapeonline.co.uk Message-ID: References: <3c174cc1.50982854@msnews.microsoft.com> <3c1d6cf3.11878981@news.iinet.net.au> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 38 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.137.254.131 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.20.1.166 X-Trace: 21 Dec 2001 19:24:57 GMT, 10.20.1.166 X-Report: Report abuse to abuse@netscapeonline.co.uk Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!plato.netscapeonline.co.uk!10.20.1.166 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:97347 In article <3c1d6cf3.11878981@news.iinet.net.au>, aceware@iinet.net.au (Tony Epton) in alt.folklore.computers wrote: >Many thanks for all your responses > >Your information has given me enough confidence to go ahead and buy >the relays. >They will cost me $AUS 1 each - but they look like such classics that >I am sure they will be worth it. > If they are the sort that I think they are, you've got at least that value in precious metal contact tips. I used to design relay sequencer systems in the late 60s, using similar relays. They were made by EE/GEC, to a CEGB, rather than BR specification, and, at that time cost 50-70 quid each, 48 working weeks delivery for unusual contact stacks. The design is pre war. AEI is affectionately remembered by its former employees as the "Arse End of Industry", and IMHO, the only UK company where things improved after the GEC takeover. Regards, David P. > >many thanks >Tony Epton > >Curator >Australian Computer Museum Society - Western Australia