From: Peter N. M. Hansteen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 08 Dec 2001 13:19:04 +0100 Organization: Only to a certain degree Lines: 16 Sender: peter@tosh Message-ID: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.54.107.19 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1007814042 11431890 194.54.107.19 (16 [67457]) X-Orig-Path: 127.0.0.1!nobody Original-Sender: peter@bgnett.no X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.54.107.19!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96024 I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point me in the right direction? The reason I want this reference is of course a discussion where my position (unsurprisingly) is that not only are backups a good idea, but if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of your software's source code around as well. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sat, 08 Dec 01 11:56:19 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <9ut6bi$lsm$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYbs4a0ivrQge14KXgZRMq2us8KWtnHHIUScBKnRRyAXmnZll7cx/kU X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 2001 13:59:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-242 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96059 In article <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no>, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: > >I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a >significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the >Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software >from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes >containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, >but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point >me in the right direction? > >The reason I want this reference is of course a discussion where my >position (unsurprisingly) is that not only are backups a good idea, but >if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of >your software's source code around as well. > And on hardcopy. I thought that I'd covered all possible bit lossage scenarios with TOPS-10. Then I got sick. Without me there to ensure that each build was done from scratch, they took a shortcut and started out with step four. When they ran into the expected problems that the shortcut would produce, they "fixed" it by hand, taking more time than if they'ld just done it right. I still don't know how to arrange a system that would have prevented this. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 01 10:54:36 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZDX+fmKzTZwEK3+JbeYl7wj4p//fMnpPbZ9+hgONDx5e90BUgRS067 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 2001 12:57:40 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-229 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96144 In article <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, Ian Stirling wrote: >seb wrote: > >> Yeah, but in what format? Source code is data as well. I doubt that >> either Unix or Windows will be around in 2100. How do you compile and >> run it? Having your obsolete source in some sort of SCCS format isn't >> going to help and it isn't going to be usable either. XML is probably >> the direction, although this assumes that the hardware is also >> available (DVD reader in 2100?, i doubt it). Face it, we're fucked. > >Given current medical technology, I hope to live at least till 2100. >I fully expect to have my archives of "stuff", still available by then. > >It's quite possible that the laptops I have may not be working by then, >though I do have multiple models to swap bits between. >The fact that backups get easier as time goes on >(reading 1500 floppies was >a pain, reading the 3 CDs that they are backups of is trivial) means that >though to duplicate my collection right now would take maybe $500, and a >few days work, to do it in 2004 will only be a couple of hours, and >in 2010, a few minutes. >This means that my data is likely to survive, at least as long as >computers are freely available to me. And power. The most important point is that private individuals are doing this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 01 10:49:57 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <9uvmre$buv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbu2siQRZG1jICE8ygE/ivWEuGKVDiMBp0N3YdJ6mGjLIrf36XTvksV X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 2001 12:53:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-229 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96146 In article <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net>, seb@tesco.net (seb) wrote: >On 08 Dec 2001 13:19:04 +0100, Peter N. M. Hansteen >wrote: > >> >>I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a >>significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the >>Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software >>from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes >>containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, >>but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point >>me in the right direction? >> >>The reason I want this reference is of course a discussion where my >>position (unsurprisingly) is that not only are backups a good idea, but >>if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of >>your software's source code around as well. >> >Yeah, but in what format? Source code is data as well. If it's ASCII you can figure it out. If it's a relocatable based on somebody's NIH brain fart, you need more information, e.g., word size of the target architecture. > .. I doubt that >either Unix or Windows will be around in 2100. How do you compile and >run it? Having your obsolete source in some sort of SCCS format isn't >going to help and it isn't going to be usable either. XML is probably >the direction, although this assumes that the hardware is also >available (DVD reader in 2100?, i doubt it). Face it, we're fucked. Which is a reason to have a complete system distributed (this includes a reproducible build procedure that uses the sources on the tape and makes identical executables shipped on that tape. This is not a trivial problem to solve, especially when the compiler is written using that compiler. What's more worrisome, is that today's trend is to have loosely coupled source figments, ala Java. The programmer has no source control over anything if the code is retrieved at execution time from a remote storage site. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: Roberto Waltman Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 09:21:29 -0500 Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: pool-141-153-155-144.mad.east.verizon.net (141.153.155.144) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1007821287 11695584 141.153.155.144 (16 [117060]) X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pool-141-153-155-144.mad.east.verizon.NET!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96097 wrote: >........ the data collected during the missions to the >Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software >from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes >containing the data appeared to be readable...... >........are backups a good idea, but >if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of >your software's source code around as well. Unfortunately, that is not enough. You may have readable media and the software that created it, but not have access to the operating system and/or cpu required to run it, or the device used to save the data. (7 track magnetic tapes, for example) It happens all the time.... RW. ###### From: spam+@orion-com.com (Joe Thompson) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 8 Dec 2001 18:49:27 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.17.71.c6 User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.3 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!spam+ Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96132 On Sat, 08 Dec 2001 09:21:29 -0500, Roberto Waltman wrote: > wrote: > >........ the data collected during the missions to the > >Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software > >from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes > >containing the data appeared to be readable...... > >........are backups a good idea, but > >if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of > >your software's source code around as well. > > Unfortunately, that is not enough. You may have readable media > and the software that created it, but not have access to the operating > system and/or cpu required to run it, or the device used to save the > data. (7 track magnetic tapes, for example) > It happens all the time.... True. But if you have the actual hardware to read the media, you can probably (eventually...) construct new software for a given platform to read your data, if you have the source code to the old software on the old platform. -- Joe -- Joe Thompson | http://www.orion-com.com/~kensey/ spam+@orion-com.com | PGP key: Finger joe-jobs@mindspring.com Yeah, it's crazy, but I just ate a giant pixy stick, and I'm excited because my new computer is coming today. -- Apreche on Slashdot ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 20:09:50 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 29 Message-ID: <9uts4m$670$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9ut6bi$lsm$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-196-138.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96126 wrote in message news:9ut6bi$lsm$5@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no>, [SNIP] > And on hardcopy. I thought that I'd covered all possible > bit lossage scenarios with TOPS-10. Then I got sick. > Without me there to ensure that each build was done from > scratch, they took a shortcut and started out with step > four. When they ran into the expected problems that the > shortcut would produce, they "fixed" it by hand, taking more > time than if they'ld just done it right. > > I still don't know how to arrange a system that would have > prevented this. A really really bad tempered drill sergeant who knows absolutely nothing about software but knows how to give orders, tell when people are disobeying orders, and most importantly : Make their lives hell when they disobey orders. Instead of that a really beaurocratic "production" release fuhrer will suffice. The Drill Sergeant is far preferable though because he's reasonable. Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 08 Dec 2001 13:45:04 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <1bwuzxl9v3.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1007844303 20566 128.123.64.113 (8 Dec 2001 20:45:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Dec 2001 20:45:03 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!upp1.onvoy!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96124 Peter N. M. Hansteen writes: > I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a > significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the > Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software > from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes > containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, > but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point > me in the right direction? This may or not be helpful, but the version I remember is that the necessary hardware to read the tapes is not available: there are no working tape drives to handle it. I actually find this to be the less unreasonable version of the story, since reconstructing the data formats would be a pretty simple exercise in cryptology. In a quick web search, I wasn't able to find any sort of believable reference to the claim; I found several places that repeated it as a matter of fact, but nothing about why. A paper I came across at http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/IT94/Proceedings/Astronomy/slavney/slavneystein.html says the tapes are ``all but unreadable today,'' which in context may actually mean the problem is deterioration of the tapes themselves (that's my interpretation). I find this a lot more believable than either the ``software doesn't exist anymore'' or ``hardware doesn't exist anymore'' versions. -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: seb@tesco.net (seb) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 00:38:21 GMT Organization: Tesco ISP Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.140.66.252 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news2.euro.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96140 On 08 Dec 2001 13:19:04 +0100, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: > >I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a >significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the >Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software >from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes >containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, >but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point >me in the right direction? > >The reason I want this reference is of course a discussion where my >position (unsurprisingly) is that not only are backups a good idea, but >if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of >your software's source code around as well. > Yeah, but in what format? Source code is data as well. I doubt that either Unix or Windows will be around in 2100. How do you compile and run it? Having your obsolete source in some sort of SCCS format isn't going to help and it isn't going to be usable either. XML is probably the direction, although this assumes that the hardware is also available (DVD reader in 2100?, i doubt it). Face it, we're fucked. seb. Drink beer. ###### Message-ID: <3C131596.DF21F08E@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: OGCQ7-66154-wL4-21460@rwcrnsc51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51 1007876689 OGCQ7-66154-wL4-21460@rwcrnsc51 (Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:44:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:44:49 GMT Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:44:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96158 "Peter N. M. Hansteen" wrote: > > I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a > significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the > Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software > from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes > containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, > but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point > me in the right direction? > > The reason I want this reference is of course a discussion where my > position (unsurprisingly) is that not only are backups a good idea, but > if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of > your software's source code around as well. > I saw a program on PBS about data loss as a result of progressing technology. The answer, though it is *expensive*, is to re-record the data on new media using modern methods. Then when you *no* longer have access to a 9-track tape drive, perhaps you can read it off of a CD-ROM. Or whatever the newest technology provides. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C131787.3429D823@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9ut6bi$lsm$5@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:53:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.198.212 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1007877186 192.168.198.212 (Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:53:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 05:53:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96155 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > And on hardcopy. I thought that I'd covered all possible > bit lossage scenarios with TOPS-10. Then I got sick. > Without me there to ensure that each build was done from > scratch, they took a shortcut and started out with step > four. When they ran into the expected problems that the > shortcut would produce, they "fixed" it by hand, taking more > time than if they'ld just done it right. > > I still don't know how to arrange a system that would have > prevented this. > IMHO, it is *impossible* to create a system that will save idiots from their own stupidity. You can only stand back and shake your head... The following is an excerpt from an article published by Benjamin Franklin in "Poor Richard's Almanac" in the 1700's: > > And now to conclude, _Experience keeps a dear School, but Fools > will learn in no other, and scarce in that_; for it is true, _we may > give Advice, but we cannot give Conduct_, as _Poor Richard_ says: > However, remember this, _They that won't be counselled, can't be > helped_, as _Poor Richard_ says: And farther, That _if you will not > hear Reason, she'll surely rap your Knuckles._" > As a friend of mine used to say: "You buy 'em books and you send 'em to school...and you see how they turn out..." \-- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 08:40:23 GMT Message-ID: <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1007887223 nnrp-10:17681 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.16 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 61 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96160 seb wrote: > Yeah, but in what format? Source code is data as well. I doubt that > either Unix or Windows will be around in 2100. How do you compile and > run it? Having your obsolete source in some sort of SCCS format isn't > going to help and it isn't going to be usable either. XML is probably > the direction, although this assumes that the hardware is also > available (DVD reader in 2100?, i doubt it). Face it, we're fucked. Given current medical technology, I hope to live at least till 2100. I fully expect to have my archives of "stuff", still available by then. It's quite possible that the laptops I have may not be working by then, though I do have multiple models to swap bits between. I suspect my main computer will have little to do with what is now a P100 laptop-Xterminal running programs from a desktop running an AMD clone of an intel chip with backwards compatibility gushing out the cracks. But, somewhere I'm going to have a "PC emulator" (I have about 4 emulators that now run on the PC) that will let me if I so wish install win95 on a virtual disk, or run linux kernels as old as 2.2.56. For giggles I may even have it talking via an IPV6-whatever protocol converter to the wider net. Yes I do currently have >>400 CDs, and .15T of online storage, but the CDs are going onto DVDr in perhaps 2004, when DVD media gets down to pennies, and the .15T will fit comfortably onto my 1Tb new hard drive. I've already archived my failing floppy collection onto CD, which took maybe three disks. Converting from CD-DVD will take my collection of perhaps 1000 down to 100, and in 2010 or so, I'd expect that to fit on a stack of disks that I can hold in one hand. The fact that backups get easier as time goes on (reading 1500 floppies was a pain, reading the 3 CDs that they are backups of is trivial) means that though to duplicate my collection right now would take maybe $500, and a few days work, to do it in 2004 will only be a couple of hours, and in 2010, a few minutes. This means that my data is likely to survive, at least as long as computers are freely available to me. As computers keep getting cheaper (I could put together a system I'd be not too unhappy to work on for $150(us), or $400 or so new) unless there is a paradigm(sp?) shift: MicroDisney takes over the international criminal court, and gets it declared terrorism to use computer software without spyware, for example, I think it's likely that I, and a substantial number of others will be able to run current software then. If "uploading" becomes possible (uploading of conciousness into computer (perhaps only on death)), then it's likely I'll still be around in some form, with the ability to run the same software in the year 21000. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life" -- Terry Pratchett-Jingo ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:13:11 GMT Message-ID: <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1007907191 nnrp-10:25722 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.16 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 69 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96159 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, > Ian Stirling wrote: >>seb wrote: >> >>This means that my data is likely to survive, at least as long as >>computers are freely available to me. > > And power. Actally, not. I've got enough electronic and electrical crap to be moderately certain of having a working computer out to 2015 or so, barring really close nuclear detonation. I have many small electric motors that work very well as generators, and even have a gimmick generator I put together that provides 70W or so, in a ~200g package. (model aircraft engine, NOISY) I can even make storage batteries to hold this power in without too much effort (refining the lead from old lead-acid batteries isn't that hard, though messy, and produces toxic vapours) The only thing that is likely to stop me is all new hardware with unbypassable security features, only able to run certified programs, and a complete shutdown of the internet as it now stands, combined with determined legal effort to stamp out remenants. > The most important point is that private individuals are doing > this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product > line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. Regrettably true. One of the reasons I like software with source, though this is only part of the answer. Then of course there is that other anathema(*) to good software, "buy it, bury it, salt the earth." Or even hardware, for example when the Avro Arrow (supersonic jet fighter(?) program in the 60s in the UK) met a change in goverment, not only was the program terminated, but rather than donate anything to museums, everything got burnt, down to the aircraft that had already flown. Another thing that is worrying is monopolies. http://groups.google.com/ provides a usefull service, but they are the only people providing it. (archiving usenet) Not only is this worrying in the sense that they may die, and not leave a publically accessible data archive, but that they are, by providing a free, comprehensive service, making the likelyhood of any competing service in the future getting as complete an archive more difficult. People now will see their old tapes/CDs/... of news, wonder if they should preserve it, and decide to chuck it as it's on google. *. Can't find a dictionary, is this correct usage? Sorry for the somewhat rambling nature of this and previous posts, rather tired. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- "Melchett : Unhappily Blackadder, the Lord High Executioner is dead Blackadder : Oh woe! Murdered of course. Melchett : No, oddly enough no. They usually are but this one just got careless one night and signed his name on the wrong dotted line. They came for him while he slept." - Blackadder II ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 9 Dec 2001 18:19:59 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 13 Message-ID: <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1007921999 7033 134.117.136.30 (9 Dec 2001 18:19:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 2001 18:19:59 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96149 Ian Stirling (root@mauve.demon.co.uk) writes: > ... > Or even hardware, for example when the Avro Arrow (supersonic jet fighter(?) > program in the 60s in the UK) Ahem. Late 1950's. Canada. > met a change in goverment, not only was the > program terminated, but rather than donate anything to museums, everything > got burnt, down to the aircraft that had already flown. Bit of one in the aircraft museum here in Ottawa. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 09 Dec 2001 21:04:26 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 107 Message-ID: <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1007928266 736 10.0.3.2 (9 Dec 2001 20:04:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 2001 20:04:26 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96166 Ian Stirling writes: > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > > > In article <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, > > Ian Stirling wrote: > >>seb wrote: > >> > >>This means that my data is likely to survive, at least as long as > >>computers are freely available to me. > > > > And power. > > The only thing that is likely to stop me is all new hardware with > unbypassable security features, only able to run certified programs, and Build your own hardware. You can do it with power generation, do it also with digital stuff. I am just starting into my first own FPGA based system. All code and tools for it will be public domain. So others can then make their systems with less work. > a complete shutdown of the internet as it now stands, combined with > determined legal effort to stamp out remenants. Which will never work. Look at what it takes just to shut down a few EL Quaida nuts. Shutting down n*10'000'000 internet users - forget it. It will just go underground as the biggest "crime" ever. Will make illegal alcohol under prohibition look like childs game. 1: Got an ethernet connection? 2: Pulls out crossed 10baseT, plugs, exchange. Think of that 1'000'000s of times at home, no spy visible. Everone just to their few friends. The ultimate million-cell underground organisation. Try stopping that. The future may turn out dysfunctional, but sure not data-less. > > The most important point is that private individuals are doing > > this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product > > line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. Companies can only trusted in one: that they will do what they think will make money. Nothing else. Never ever rely on anyone else than yourself and people who are accountable to you and will stay so. > Another thing that is worrying is monopolies. > http://groups.google.com/ provides a usefull service, but they are the > only people providing it. (archiving usenet) They may be the only institutional all-internet archive. But there exist lots of one-newsgroup-at-a-time personal archives. I have full a.f.c since Dec1997, 74MByte .tar.gz. Someone out there (can't remember name) has full a.f.c since very early. I once gave him a copy of mine to full his holes. But he forgot to send me his full end result of merging :-(. Dito all other newsgroups I read, together >1GByte. Dito I automatically archive every webpage I download by using an wwwoffle server on my computer. I then kill useless pages, but anything good is kept. Multi-100MByte at this time. Add to that >500MByte of my private stuff (120M of that my website). Any yes full off-site backup of all of it, plus all programs I use, to an system 30km away. > Not only is this worrying in the sense that they may die, and not leave > a publically accessible data archive, See also Library of Alexandria. Think about it if that had all been scanned to CD-ROM and then copied by the 1000s. Fuck the barbarians. Now that would be a great use of a time machine. > but that they are, by providing a > free, comprehensive service, making the likelyhood of any competing service > in the future getting as complete an archive more difficult. Competing COMMERCIAL service. Think private personal collections. What newsgroups are _you_ archiving? What websites? > People now will see their old tapes/CDs/... of news, wonder if they > should preserve it, and decide to chuck it as it's on google. I am not chucking. I the first day I entered Usenet I set up an local inn news server and have allways done download to server and then read from it. Was originally to reduce telephone connect time (charged by the minute), but it has made an nice achive. I set it up non-expire right from the beginning, so I could look at old stuff. > Sorry for the somewhat rambling nature of this and previous posts, rather > tired. A good rambling. Too many people are not archiving. We need to wake up more of them. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: wbdesnoy@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Byron Desnoyers Winmill) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 9 Dec 2001 21:04:47 GMT Organization: University of Calgary Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9v0jlf$1jh0$1@nserve1.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: wbdesnoy@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Trace: nserve1.acs.ucalgary.ca 1007931887 52768 136.159.34.205 (9 Dec 2001 21:04:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@ucalgary.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Dec 2001 21:04:47 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca!wbdesnoy Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96175 Ian Stirling (root@mauve.demon.co.uk) wrote: : I've already archived my failing floppy collection onto CD, which took : maybe three disks. The fact that backups get easier as time goes : on (reading 1500 floppies was a pain, reading the 3 CDs that they are : backups of is trivial) Of the floppies, no doubt. We are producing a lot more data as time goes on though. I recently transfered about 8 years of backups onto a single 30GB tape (with compression). It takes several such tapes for current monthly backups. But a 1500 floppies. That must have been some collection! I managed to fit a couple of hundred, plus two CDs, on one CD-R. The wonders of modern compression. Byron. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Mon, 10 Dec 01 10:20:42 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbbCgN2+MUvDNwnwy+ZTKau3pPsiKDQZA2Znc23RpBatdUKliQtJWcJ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2001 12:23:58 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-216-20 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96199 In article <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> The most important point is that private individuals are doing >> this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product >> line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. >> >IMHO, that's because companies are only interested in *money*, >*not* in the products that they make. History is full of examples >where products and people were *screwed*, in the perception that >the company could make more *money*. (Take the exploiding gas tank >saga of the Ford Pinto, for example. The 36-bit line of DEC computers >were also a casualty of this type of company greed.) > >Companies may *say* that they are interested in their product line, >but that is only a ploy that is perceived to make them more *money*... > But that's a good thing. It keeps everybody in the company focused on one goal no matter what the individual agendas were. Note that DEC never knew how much money was getting made by the PDP-10 product line. For instance, all the minis sold to a -10 customers were not "counted" as revenue generated by the -10. Blaming it all on that nasty money-making is not the cause but is a ploy by liberals and politicians to garner support. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 19:41:34 GMT Organization: Dragonhill Systems Ltd Message-ID: <1007926894snz@dsl.co.uk> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> X-Trace: mail2news.demon.co.uk 1007945880 mail2news:4491 mail2news mail2news.demon.co.uk X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Mail2News-Path: news.demon.net!dsl.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.31 Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96231 In article <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" writes: > Ian Stirling (root@mauve.demon.co.uk) writes: > > > ... > > Or even hardware, for example when the Avro Arrow (supersonic jet fighter(?) > > program in the 60s in the UK) > > Ahem. Late 1950's. Canada. I believe that he was probably referring to the TSR-2, which was cancelled when Dennis Healey was made Minister of Defence by Harold Wilson. Practically the entirety of the fuselage was constructed from titanium. > > met a change in goverment, not only was the > > program terminated, but rather than donate anything to museums, everything > > got burnt, down to the aircraft that had already flown. > > Bit of one in the aircraft museum here in Ottawa. I think there may be TSR-2 bits left as well, although it is indeed true that the two prototypes that actually flew ended their days as targets on the artillery ranges at P&EE Shoeburyness. -- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being incr- easingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs ###### Message-ID: <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 21:51:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.127.202.213 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51 1007934713 204.127.202.213 (Sun, 09 Dec 2001 21:51:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 21:51:53 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96228 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > The most important point is that private individuals are doing > this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product > line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. > IMHO, that's because companies are only interested in *money*, *not* in the products that they make. History is full of examples where products and people were *screwed*, in the perception that the company could make more *money*. (Take the exploiding gas tank saga of the Ford Pinto, for example. The 36-bit line of DEC computers were also a casualty of this type of company greed.) Companies may *say* that they are interested in their product line, but that is only a ploy that is perceived to make them more *money*... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### Message-ID: <3C13FAF3.4E23F0BE@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 22:03:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.127.202.211 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52 1007935407 204.127.202.211 (Sun, 09 Dec 2001 22:03:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 22:03:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96230 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Ian Stirling writes: > > > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > > > Not only is this worrying in the sense that they may die, and not leave > > a publically accessible data archive, > > See also Library of Alexandria. Think about it if that had all been > scanned to CD-ROM and then copied by the 1000s. Fuck the barbarians. > Now that would be a great use of a time machine. > A great use of a time machine for sure!!! But let's *not* forget the Pergammon Library in Greece, and a library/university in Baghdad called the "House of Wisdom" founded in 800 A.D. by Caliph Al-Mamon. All were eventually burned... :-( -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Ian Stirling Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 22:48:17 GMT Message-ID: <1007938097.11965.0.nnrp-14.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1007938097 nnrp-14:11965 NO-IDENT mauve.demon.co.uk:158.152.209.66 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.5.6-20000803 ("Dust") (UNIX) (Linux/2.4.16 (i686)) Originator: root@mauve.demon.co.uk Lines: 105 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mauve.demon.co.uk!root Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96229 Neil Franklin wrote: > > Ian Stirling writes: > >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> > >> > In article <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk>, >> > Ian Stirling wrote: >> >>seb wrote: >> >> >> >>This means that my data is likely to survive, at least as long as >> >>computers are freely available to me. >> > >> > And power. >> a complete shutdown of the internet as it now stands, combined with >> determined legal effort to stamp out remenants. A needed corrolary of this would be to add penalties for unauthorised computer use. >> Another thing that is worrying is monopolies. >> http://groups.google.com/ provides a usefull service, but they are the >> only people providing it. (archiving usenet) > > They may be the only institutional all-internet archive. > > But there exist lots of one-newsgroup-at-a-time personal archives. I > have full a.f.c since Dec1997, 74MByte .tar.gz. Someone out there > (can't remember name) has full a.f.c since very early. I once gave > him a copy of mine to full his holes. But he forgot to send me his > full end result of merging :-(. > > Dito all other newsgroups I read, together >1GByte. Ditto, I've got several CDs, from 100 groups or so, with various coverage over the years. Mainly sci.space.*, a.f.c, and a few others. Looking at my posting history, I think I've spewed at least 20Mb of original dribblings onto the morass that is the internet. > Dito I automatically archive every webpage I download by using an > wwwoffle server on my computer. I then kill useless pages, but > anything good is kept. Multi-100MByte at this time. Me too, at this time I've hit 1.7G in /var/spool/wwwoffle/http > Add to that >500MByte of my private stuff (120M of that my website). > > Any yes full off-site backup of all of it, plus all programs I use, > to an system 30km away. In the garage. >> Not only is this worrying in the sense that they may die, and not leave >> a publically accessible data archive, > See also Library of Alexandria. Think about it if that had all been > scanned to CD-ROM and then copied by the 1000s. Fuck the barbarians. > Now that would be a great use of a time machine. >> but that they are, by providing a >> free, comprehensive service, making the likelyhood of any competing service >> in the future getting as complete an archive more difficult. > Competing COMMERCIAL service. Think private personal collections. What > newsgroups are _you_ archiving? What websites? I wasn't meaning commercial services. A free similar collection would run into the same problem getting peoples archives of old stuff. There is great value in collecting stuff beyond what one person can archive, especially if it's searchable. Dejanews has pulled up threads that immediately helped me do things, though they were 5 years old, and the only discussion that was in the archive on it, on a newsgroup I'd never thought to archive. >> People now will see their old tapes/CDs/... of news, wonder if they >> should preserve it, and decide to chuck it as it's on google. > > I am not chucking. I the first day I entered Usenet I set up an local > inn news server and have allways done download to server and then read > from it. Was originally to reduce telephone connect time (charged by > the minute), but it has made an nice achive. I set it up non-expire > right from the beginning, so I could look at old stuff. Me too! (well, actually old posts get CDd, so that I can unarchive them when I have enough disk space) Hmm, are we in fact the same person? (checks name at top, nope) >> Sorry for the somewhat rambling nature of this and previous posts, rather >> tired. > > A good rambling. Too many people are not archiving. We need to wake up > more of them. -- http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inquisitor@i.am | Ian Stirling. ---------------------------+-------------------------+-------------------------- Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight! Pieces of nine! ###### From: "Don Chiasson" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:34:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.42.241.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news3.rdc2.on.home.com 1007940882 24.42.241.65 (Sun, 09 Dec 2001 15:34:42 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 15:34:42 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news3.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96224 "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote in message news:9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Ian Stirling (root@mauve.demon.co.uk) writes: > > > ... > > Or even hardware, for example when the Avro Arrow > > (supersonic jet fighter(?) program in the 60s in the UK) > > Ahem. Late 1950's. Canada. <> Correct. A. V. Roe was essentially a subsidiary of a British aircraft company. The Arrow was a fine aircraft, shot down by politics and not the enemy. On the other side of the pond, the Brits worked on the Blue Streak intermediate range ballistic missile that was cancelled in 1958. They also worked on the Black Arrow, a satellite launcher rocket. When these names go together, it is somewhat confusing. Don e-mail: it's not not, it's hot. ###### From: Elder One < > Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 19:19:11 -0500 Organization: Order of the Elders Message-ID: Reply-To: 127.0.0.1 References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.1.2 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!barn.net.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96232 On 08 Dec 2001 13:19:04 +0100, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: > >I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a >significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the >Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software >from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes >containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, >but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point >me in the right direction? > >The reason I want this reference is of course a discussion where my >position (unsurprisingly) is that not only are backups a good idea, but >if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of >your software's source code around as well. This is a really, really big problem for places like drug companies, where their test data was written years and years ago. Even if the data is readable, they have to be really, really careful to preserve the metadata, lest they end up with megabytes of experimental data that they no longer understand how to read. ###### Message-ID: <3C13EA9F.1E011A3C@yahoo.com> From: CBFalconer Reply-To: cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net Organization: Ched Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 02:33:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.90.169.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 1007951602 12.90.169.145 (Mon, 10 Dec 2001 02:33:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 02:33:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96177 Ian Stirling wrote: > ... snip ... > > Or even hardware, for example when the Avro Arrow (supersonic jet fighter(?) > program in the 60s in the UK) met a change in goverment, not only was the > program terminated, but rather than donate anything to museums, everything > got burnt, down to the aircraft that had already flown. I spent one or two weeks on the CF105 electronics, before Dief the Chief axed it. At least I only had to go around the block, there were a lot of UKians who had pulled up roots and moved for it. -- Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net) Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) mailto:uce@ftc.gov (for spambots to harvest) ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Roger Blake Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> X-No-Archive: Yes Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.2 (Linux) Lines: 13 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 02:54:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.50.164.178 X-Complaints-To: noc@capu.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1007952888 64.50.164.178 (Sun, 09 Dec 2001 21:54:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 21:54:48 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96180 On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:13:11 GMT, Ian Stirling wrote: > Not only is this worrying in the sense that they may die, and not leave > a publically accessible data archive, but that they are, by providing a > free, comprehensive service, making the likelyhood of any competing service > in the future getting as complete an archive more difficult. This is no biggie. Usenet got along fine for many years without a generally-accessible, comprehensive archive and can function without it again if necessary. -- Roger Blake (Take away 10 for email.) ###### From: D_Jim Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 9 Dec 2001 19:39:12 -0800 Organization: Blue Moon Fizz Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9v1ap00fls@drn.newsguy.com> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-304.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: Direct Read News 2.91 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96197 Roger Blake wrote: >This is no biggie. Usenet got along fine for many years without a >generally-accessible, comprehensive archive and can function without >it again if necessary. Yup, we could go back too ftpmail... eeesh. multiple program parts in 16 kilobyte chunks. And part 7 is missing. But I did that in 1988 on floppy. Had an Amiga 1000, and used the university's CP6 to send off the request. Crossdos at home. Join the files, uudecode, etc. JimP. -- djim55 atty datasync dotty com Disclaimer: Standard "Utopia does not exist." http://www.crosswinds.net/~drivein/ drive-in movie theaters update Sep 11,2001 http://www.datasync.com/~djim55/index.html ###### From: "Walter Rottenkolber" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:14:17 -0800 Lines: 31 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.25 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.25 Message-ID: <3c14550a@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1007965450 209.155.25.25 (9 Dec 2001 22:24:10 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96190 Charles Richmond wrote in message <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net>... >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> The most important point is that private individuals are doing >> this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product >> line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. >> >IMHO, that's because companies are only interested in *money*, >*not* in the products that they make. History is full of examples >where products and people were *screwed*, in the perception that >the company could make more *money*. (Take the exploiding gas tank >saga of the Ford Pinto, for example. The 36-bit line of DEC computers >were also a casualty of this type of company greed.) > >Companies may *say* that they are interested in their product line, >but that is only a ploy that is perceived to make them more *money*... > >-- >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Charles and Francis Richmond | >+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Just like Big Government. So what else is new?? Walter Rottenkolber ###### From: "Walter Rottenkolber" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <9uvmre$buv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:23:07 -0800 Lines: 56 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.25 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.25.25 Message-ID: <3c14550b@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1007965451 209.155.25.25 (9 Dec 2001 22:24:11 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!netnews.com!xfer02.netnews.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96191 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote in message <9uvmre$buv$1@bob.news.rcn.net>... >In article <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net>, seb@tesco.net (seb) wrote: >>On 08 Dec 2001 13:19:04 +0100, Peter N. M. Hansteen >>wrote: >> >>> >>>I remember vaguely seeing a report recently which said that at least a >>>significant chunk of the data collected during the missions to the >>>Moon were now not available. The supposed reason was that the software >>>from back then was no longer available, even though the magnetic tapes >>>containing the data appeared to be readable. I've looked around a bit, >>>but I seem to have lost the original reference. Can anybody here point >>>me in the right direction? >>> >>>The reason I want this reference is of course a discussion where my >>>position (unsurprisingly) is that not only are backups a good idea, but >>>if you really need your data, you'd better make sure you have a copy of >>>your software's source code around as well. >>> >>Yeah, but in what format? Source code is data as well. > >If it's ASCII you can figure it out. If it's a relocatable >based on somebody's NIH brain fart, you need more information, >e.g., word size of the target architecture. > > >> .. I doubt that >>either Unix or Windows will be around in 2100. How do you compile and >>run it? Having your obsolete source in some sort of SCCS format isn't >>going to help and it isn't going to be usable either. XML is probably >>the direction, although this assumes that the hardware is also >>available (DVD reader in 2100?, i doubt it). Face it, we're fucked. > >Which is a reason to have a complete system distributed (this >includes a reproducible build procedure that uses the sources >on the tape and makes identical executables shipped on that >tape. This is not a trivial problem to solve, especially when >the compiler is written using that compiler. > >What's more worrisome, is that today's trend is to have >loosely coupled source figments, ala Java. The programmer >has no source control over anything if the code is retrieved >at execution time from a remote storage site. > >/BAH > >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. Maybe we're back to text printed on paper -- the book as the ultimate archive resource. Walter Rottenkolber ###### Message-ID: <3C1463E0.55C38CD@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <9uvmre$buv$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3c14550b@news.sierratel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 05:31:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.127.202.216 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51 1007962268 204.127.202.216 (Mon, 10 Dec 2001 05:31:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 05:31:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsmi-eu.news.garr.it!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!newsfeed.stanford.edu!cyclone.bc.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!wn1feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96225 Walter Rottenkolber wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > > Maybe we're back to text printed on paper -- the book as the ultimate > archive resource. > Books are a *bad* archival medium if they are printed on acid- based paper. The life of the book may be less than 100 years. (The vast majority of books today *are* printed on acid-based paper.) -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: Peter N. M. Hansteen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 10 Dec 2001 08:01:35 +0100 Organization: Only to a certain degree Lines: 15 Sender: peter@tosh Message-ID: <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.54.107.19 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1007967901 12909655 194.54.107.19 (16 [67457]) X-Orig-Path: 127.0.0.1!nobody Original-Sender: peter@bgnett.no X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.54.107.19!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96184 Elder One < > writes: > This is a really, really big problem for places like drug companies, > where their test data was written years and years ago. Even if the > data is readable, they have to be really, really careful to preserve > the metadata, lest they end up with megabytes of experimental data > that they no longer understand how to read. Yes, this is essentially the kinds of war stories I was looking for. The lunar missions, if the story is true, would be just one rather high-profile example. Again, any verifiable stories (preferably web-findable) would be appreciated. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Roger Blake Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> X-No-Archive: Yes Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.7.2 (Linux) Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:09:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.50.164.178 X-Complaints-To: noc@capu.net X-Trace: news.abs.net 1007989797 64.50.164.178 (Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:09:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:09:57 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.abs.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96179 On Mon, 10 Dec 01 10:20:42 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > Blaming it all on that nasty money-making is not the cause > but is a ploy by liberals and politicians to garner support. Indeed. One of the most liberal, anti-corporate guys I know invests in the stock market for maximum return, but badmouths those "evil corporations" who only want to make money. I had a chance to talk with him just after the September 11 attack, and the first thing out his mouth in the aftermath was concern that the value of his investments would be down due to stock market reaction. So much for "people before profits." (I guess that's only when it's someone else's profits.) -- Roger Blake (Take away 10 for email.) ###### From: lysse.hates.spam@blueyonder.co.uk Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:41:55 +0000 Organization: lysse's domain Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc-62-31-4-86-bf.blueyonder.co.uk (62.31.4.86) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1007998176 12374359 62.31.4.86 (16 [111955]) X-Orig-Path: not-for-mail Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pc-62-31-4-86-bf.blueyonder.co.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96208 On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:09:57 GMT, Roger Blake told alt.folklore.computers: : On Mon, 10 Dec 01 10:20:42 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: :> Blaming it all on that nasty money-making is not the cause :> but is a ploy by liberals and politicians to garner support. : Indeed. One of the most liberal, anti-corporate guys I know invests : in the stock market for maximum return, but badmouths those "evil : corporations" who only want to make money. I had a chance to talk with : him just after the September 11 attack, and the first thing out his mouth : in the aftermath was concern that the value of his investments would be : down due to stock market reaction. So much for "people before profits." : (I guess that's only when it's someone else's profits.) Some of us liberal, anti-corporate types are more honest than this, you know... We're dead easy to recognise, we're the ones without any money. I always get suspicious of rich liberals. ;-) Besides, there's a difference between money-making (honest work honestly paid) and nasty money-making (when people start using their power to screw other people over, line their own pockets, bean-count, etc.) -- lysse at lysse dot co dot uk "Why are your problems always so much bigger than everyone else's?" "Because they're mine." -- Ally McBeal ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:41:18 -0500 Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1008002479 204.250.0.238 (10 Dec 2001 11:41:19 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.radix.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96185 wrote in message news:jjh2v9.di1.ln@setter.lysse.co.uk... > > Besides, there's a difference between money-making (honest work honestly > paid) and nasty money-making (when people start using their power to > screw other people over, line their own pockets, bean-count, etc.) Unfortunatelty, the design of the Invisible Hand assumed that we would all be in the former category, and few if any would be in the latter category. Why is why the private ownership of the means of production DOES work, but letting business have free rein doesn't. Profit is to business what cocaine is to mammals... Regards, -doug q ###### From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:46:12 -0500 Organization: Tidewater Virginia Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: shannon@widomaker.com X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96213 In article <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > Which will never work. Look at what it takes just to shut down a few > EL Quaida nuts. Shutting down n*10'000'000 internet users - forget > it. It will just go underground as the biggest "crime" ever. Will make > illegal alcohol under prohibition look like childs game. The problem with this analogy is that Al Quaida is not volunteering to be destroyed. The masses of computer usrs definitely are volunteering. No one is forcing Big Brother on them, they are welcoming him and Billy Boy with open arms. Wny fire a shot when the enemy is kissing your ass all the way into town? -- UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 10 Dec 2001 18:36:20 GMT Lines: 31 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62-190-202-8.pdu.pipex.net X-Trace: 1008009380 news.dial.pipex.com 8509 62.190.202.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!lnewspeer00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewsifeed00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96182 On Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:34:42 GMT, Don Chiasson wrote: > >"Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote in message >news:9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... >> Ian Stirling (root@mauve.demon.co.uk) writes: >> > >> ... >> > Or even hardware, for example when the Avro Arrow >> > (supersonic jet fighter(?) program in the 60s in the UK) >> >> Ahem. Late 1950's. Canada. ><> > Correct. A. V. Roe was essentially a subsidiary of a British >aircraft company. The Arrow was a fine aircraft, shot down by politics >and not the enemy. > On the other side of the pond, the Brits worked on the Blue >Streak intermediate range ballistic missile that was cancelled in 1958. >They also worked on the Black Arrow, a satellite launcher rocket. When >these names go together, it is somewhat confusing. We mustn't forget the Miles (M38??) supersonic aircraft prototype of the early 1940s - scrapped and destroyed by the British Government before it even flew, and the research and design data given to the American government who gave it to NACA and Bell who then built the X-1... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 10 Dec 2001 21:05:37 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 71 Message-ID: <6u7kruj0xa.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1007938097.11965.0.nnrp-14.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1008014738 476 10.0.3.2 (10 Dec 2001 20:05:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2001 20:05:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96233 Ian Stirling writes: > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > Ian Stirling writes: > > > >> a complete shutdown of the internet as it now stands, combined with > >> determined legal effort to stamp out remenants. > > A needed corrolary of this would be to add penalties for unauthorised > computer use. Which would not work anyway. Just look at the "success" of any form of prohibition (alcohol, drugs, porn, prostitution, guns). None of it ever made a dent. It just makes life a little bit more dangerous, and a few incautious ones get nabbed. Society lives with 100'000s getting killed in road accidents every year, and still people do not run scared from roads. So even 1000s getting arrested will not make a dent in illegal computer usage. And for more than that the government can't really spare the resources. Nor survive the political fallout, if they do start such an mass arrest program. So the millions of todays open source users will surely not go back to Microsoft and so you are only one of millions of targets. So long you keep out of the spotlight you are safe. > >> but that they are, by providing a > >> free, comprehensive service, making the likelyhood of any competing service > >> in the future getting as complete an archive more difficult. > > > Competing COMMERCIAL service. Think private personal collections. What > > newsgroups are _you_ archiving? What websites? > > I wasn't meaning commercial services. > A free similar collection would run into the same problem getting peoples > archives of old stuff. > There is great value in collecting stuff beyond what one person can > archive, especially if it's searchable. > Dejanews has pulled up threads that immediately helped me do things, > though they were 5 years old, and the only discussion that was in the > archive on it, on a newsgroup I'd never thought to archive. Such access (as opposed to just archiving) would be more difficult. > Hmm, are we in fact the same person? (checks name at top, nope) And I do not have a garage either. You also have a newer Linux (I still use 2.2.13). Same side of the big pond though. > Pieces of eight! > Pieces of eight! > Pieces of eight! > Pieces of eight! > Pieces of eight! > Pieces of nine! > What does that joke refer to? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 10 Dec 2001 21:14:13 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 50 Message-ID: <6u4rmyj0iy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <1007907191.25722.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 1008015253 476 10.0.3.2 (10 Dec 2001 20:14:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Dec 2001 20:14:13 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96234 shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes: > In article <6ud71oxir9.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > Which will never work. Look at what it takes just to shut down a few > > EL Quaida nuts. Shutting down n*10'000'000 internet users - forget > > it. It will just go underground as the biggest "crime" ever. Will make > > illegal alcohol under prohibition look like childs game. > > The problem with this analogy is that Al Quaida is not volunteering to > be destroyed. Nor are the millions of computer users. Or do you think they are willingly waiting to be arrested, dreaming of that nice government payed (no bills!) bed and food service? > The masses of computer usrs definitely are volunteering. No one is > forcing Big Brother on them, they are welcoming him and Billy Boy with > open arms. You should make a distinction between demanding laws against "crooks" (real of immagined) and wanting to themselves be arrested. The first does not imply the second. Even if some paranoid people think that the second will follow from the first. Nor does getting such laws mean that the crooks will be caught. Law is astonnishingly weak, limited by personnel shortage. Ask all them never-caught soft drug users, all them illegal never caught alcohol users in the 1930s, all them illegal porn readers. Law has not even got the power to stop something (by neccessarity) as highly visible as prostitution. Do you think they have any realistic chance against illegal personal computer system usage? > Wny fire a shot when the enemy is kissing your ass all the way into town? Because like most ass-kissers, when you turn around to get him, he is gone. And then you are in a bewildering maze of millions of targets, of which you will never identify even 1%. As a friend of mines .sig says: If you think big brother is watching you, bore him to death. Just make him drown in enemies. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng HTL/BSc, Sysadmin, Archer, Roleplayer - Intellectual Property is Intellectual Robbery ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 11 Dec 01 11:00:13 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1116.745T674T6603855@sky.bus.com> References: <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> <3c163bf2@news.sierratel.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-966.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!209.155.233.16!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96259 In article <3c163bf2@news.sierratel.com> waltjr@sierratel.com (Walter Rottenkolber) writes: >Charles Richmond wrote in message <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net>... >> >>Well, I am a conservative Democrat myself...*not* a liberal >>Democrat...and certainly *not* a Republican. >> >>I have *no* objection to companies (or myself) making money. >>I think that is fine and dandy. I just think that often the >>suits get too wound up in making money, and forget what product >>they are trying to produce. >> >If you only would hold politicians to the same high standard. >Especially those who steal the White House furniture when they >leave. This kind of behaviour is by no means unique to American Democrats, as shown by the row of moving vans lined up outside 24 Sussex Drive (the Canadian equivalent of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue) when former Conservative Prime Minister Brian Mulroney moved out. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: "Charlie Gibbs" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 11 Dec 01 10:56:28 -0800 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 58 Message-ID: <2231.745T1401T6564946@sky.bus.com> References: <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-965.newsdawg.com X-Newsreader: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!andromeda.datanet.hu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96268 In article <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) writes: >In article <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net>, >Charles Richmond wrote: > >>IMHO it is *not* a good thing when the company is interested >>*only* in making money, to the exclusion of morals or harm caused >>by the company to the planet. > >IMO, there's no such thing as a company interested in *only* >making money without considering the rest. The most important >part of making money is giving the customers what they need. >You stop making money when you stop doing that. That's where the marketroids come in. Their job is to create a need where none exists ("Of _course_ you need an Acme cuticle stretcher!") or to mold those needs into something more amenable to profit (fashion updates and planned obsolescence are big here). >> When people are put at risk by >>unsafe products, the companies should do everything they can to >>rectify the situation. > >PTUI! There is no such thing as a 100% safe product. And the sooner the public realizes this, the better. Of course, there are some products out there which are unnecessarily dangerous because the manufacturer cut corners to save a nickel per unit - but on the whole the pendulum is swinging too far the other way. >> .. The suits had the *perception* >>that this way would make more money. > >Nope. They had the perception that the business would be >easier to control. This is an interesting point which crosses over into politics, where power is more important than money. (If you have power, you can get all the money you want.) >>Businesses should make money by offering a quality product or >>service for sale. Businesses should *not* make money by trying >>to find the right button to push that will spew cash in their >>faces. IMHO. > >And, if you take a close look, businesses, who don't do that, >fail. Given the number of thriving businesses producing shoddy products, the problem must be that they don't fail quickly enough. -- cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs) Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. I don't read top-posted messages. If you want me to see your reply, appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 01 10:41:38 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 96 Message-ID: <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZPnZXKLgQeI4oNziE6IJ1BPiJAfl3hM295fBY6oNY9vUaDAXvoWXHH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 12:45:02 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-59 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96305 In article <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> >> >> The most important point is that private individuals are doing >> >> this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product >> >> line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. >> >> >> >IMHO, that's because companies are only interested in *money*, >> >*not* in the products that they make. History is full of examples >> >where products and people were *screwed*, in the perception that >> >the company could make more *money*. (Take the exploiding gas tank >> >saga of the Ford Pinto, for example. The 36-bit line of DEC computers >> >were also a casualty of this type of company greed.) >> > >> >Companies may *say* that they are interested in their product line, >> >but that is only a ploy that is perceived to make them more *money*... >> > >> But that's a good thing. It keeps everybody in the company >> focused on one goal no matter what the individual agendas were. >> Note that DEC never knew how much money was getting made by >> the PDP-10 product line. For instance, all the minis sold >> to a -10 customers were not "counted" as revenue generated >> by the -10. >> >IMHO it is *not* a good thing when the company is interested >*only* in making money, to the exclusion of morals or harm caused >by the company to the planet. IMO, there's no such thing as a company interested in *only* making money without considering the rest. The most important part of making money is giving the customers what they need. You stop making money when you stop doing that. > When people are put at risk by >unsafe products, the companies should do everything they can to >rectify the situation. PTUI! There is no such thing as a 100% safe product. > >If you read carefully, you will notice that I also said the >*perception* that the company will make more money. This IMHO is >why the VAX became the *only* major system sold by DEC, and the >PDP-10 business went out the window. You opinion is incorrect. > .. The suits had the *perception* >that this way would make more money. Nope. They had the perception that the business would be easier to control. There was also a misconception that software was not important. Go read about the latest emasculation attempt of Compaq. Not only do they have an assumption that the software is unimportant, but they've reached that nether region of thinking that hardware also falls into that category. > >Businesses should make money by offering a quality product or >service for sale. Businesses should *not* make money by trying >to find the right button to push that will spew cash in their >faces. IMHO. And, if you take a close look, businesses, who don't do that, fail. >> >> Blaming it all on that nasty money-making is not the cause >> but is a ploy by liberals and politicians to garner support. >> >Well, I am a conservative Democrat myself...*not* a liberal >Democrat...and certainly *not* a Republican. These days, I can't tell the difference. > >I have *no* objection to companies (or myself) making money. >I think that is fine and dandy. I just think that often the >suits get too wound up in making money, and forget what product >they are trying to produce. But who are those suits? They're people just like you and me. They aren't a THEY. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 01 13:11:44 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9v57tq$m3e$2@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com> <9v4umg$ku1$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3c162021$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVar3/syMIbfU2DPBkWc8PrAPHunpnnDkbhOpL3lXH2yydytktnIc3E6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 15:15:06 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-245-73 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96307 In article <3c162021$1_3@news.iglou.com>, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > wrote in message news:9v4umg$ku1$1@bob.news.rcn.net... >> In article <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com>, >> "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: >> > wrote in message >> >news:jjh2v9.di1.ln@setter.lysse.co.uk... >> >> >> >> Besides, there's a difference between money-making (honest work >honestly >> >> paid) and nasty money-making (when people start using their power to >> >> screw other people over, line their own pockets, bean-count, etc.) >> > >> >Unfortunatelty, the design of the Invisible Hand assumed that we would >> >all be in the former category, and few if any would be in the latter >> >category. >> > >> >Why is why the private ownership of the means of production DOES work, >> >but letting business have free rein doesn't. >> > >> >Profit is to business what cocaine is to mammals... >> >> Sigh! Competition. > >A fine an honorable thing, when only bragging rights are at stake. Oh, bullshit. It just like football. You can compete with the only goal of winning tomorrow's game or you can compete with a goal of winning the trophy. There is a difference in each strategy. To do the first, you don't care if you eat your seed corn. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 01 14:08:54 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <9v5b8v$3vi$4@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> <3C161F75.B9501EA5@d2dc.net> <87adwpivzx.fsf@bgnett.no> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZwPVeOBDuKD+GMHNylnPFt3lXGpFqPwwDxM3k4BIbzBLk8NdVmftQH X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 16:12:15 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!216-164-247-51 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96309 In article <87adwpivzx.fsf@bgnett.no>, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: >This one sounds like something pretty much like I was looking for - >examples of situations where preserved data were not much use anyway >since the data format (logical organization of the stored data) had >been lost. > >Good show they managed to get the data back anyway, though :) If you're really looking for examples, you should probably go to the newsgroups where the people who do the work hang out. The ones I know are too busy to come over here (IOW, don't waste their time). I threw out a pointer but I don't think many will drop by. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 01 10:34:13 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9v4umg$ku1$1@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbJLpJdkRBJDjOT4qidx7xA4RDv6wEPEiwiQqxLUbTMbMqYzlXqqeSr X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 12:37:36 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!207-172-102-59 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96319 In article <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com>, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > wrote in message >news:jjh2v9.di1.ln@setter.lysse.co.uk... >> >> Besides, there's a difference between money-making (honest work honestly >> paid) and nasty money-making (when people start using their power to >> screw other people over, line their own pockets, bean-count, etc.) > >Unfortunatelty, the design of the Invisible Hand assumed that we would >all be in the former category, and few if any would be in the latter >category. > >Why is why the private ownership of the means of production DOES work, >but letting business have free rein doesn't. > >Profit is to business what cocaine is to mammals... Sigh! Competition. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### Message-ID: <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:33:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.127.202.214 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc54 1008023628 204.127.202.214 (Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:33:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:33:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!nyccyc01!news-east.rr.com!wn2feed!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi.com!rwcrnsc54.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96398 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] > >> > >> The most important point is that private individuals are doing > >> this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product > >> line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. > >> > >IMHO, that's because companies are only interested in *money*, > >*not* in the products that they make. History is full of examples > >where products and people were *screwed*, in the perception that > >the company could make more *money*. (Take the exploiding gas tank > >saga of the Ford Pinto, for example. The 36-bit line of DEC computers > >were also a casualty of this type of company greed.) > > > >Companies may *say* that they are interested in their product line, > >but that is only a ploy that is perceived to make them more *money*... > > > But that's a good thing. It keeps everybody in the company > focused on one goal no matter what the individual agendas were. > Note that DEC never knew how much money was getting made by > the PDP-10 product line. For instance, all the minis sold > to a -10 customers were not "counted" as revenue generated > by the -10. > IMHO it is *not* a good thing when the company is interested *only* in making money, to the exclusion of morals or harm caused by the company to the planet. When people are put at risk by unsafe products, the companies should do everything they can to rectify the situation. If you read carefully, you will notice that I also said the *perception* that the company will make more money. This IMHO is why the VAX became the *only* major system sold by DEC, and the PDP-10 business went out the window. The suits had the *perception* that this way would make more money. Businesses should make money by offering a quality product or service for sale. Businesses should *not* make money by trying to find the right button to push that will spew cash in their faces. IMHO. > > Blaming it all on that nasty money-making is not the cause > but is a ploy by liberals and politicians to garner support. > Well, I am a conservative Democrat myself...*not* a liberal Democrat...and certainly *not* a Republican. I have *no* objection to companies (or myself) making money. I think that is fine and dandy. I just think that often the suits get too wound up in making money, and forget what product they are trying to produce. -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:00:51 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <3re3v9.av2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1008027024 nnrp-07:27612 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96287 According to Stan Barr : > We mustn't forget the Miles (M38??) supersonic aircraft prototype of > the early 1940s - scrapped and destroyed by the British Government > before it even flew, and the research and design data given to the > American government who gave it to NACA and Bell who then built the > X-1... Would that be part of the rather lop-sided "arrangement" where the US government got free and unrestricted rights to all UK R&D from that time period? Chris. ###### From: aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 10 Dec 2001 19:56:52 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.179.2.198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1008043012 12856 127.0.0.1 (11 Dec 2001 03:56:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 03:56:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96385 Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote in message news:<87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no>... > Yes, this is essentially the kinds of war stories I was looking > for. The lunar missions, if the story is true, would be just one > rather high-profile example. Again, any verifiable stories (preferably > web-findable) would be appreciated. One of the guys at the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is an astronomer, and he says that EVERY BIT of EVERY MISSION is available today. The original tapes are probably long gone (and they would actually not be seven or nine tracks, but weird analog things from the telemetry equipment), but the data has been very well cared for over the years. Time to kill this urban legend off. William Donzelli ###### From: Joe Pfeiffer Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 10 Dec 2001 23:08:58 -0700 Organization: New Mexico State University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: viper.cs.nmsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: bubba.NMSU.Edu 1008050936 26235 128.123.64.113 (11 Dec 2001 06:08:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@bubba.NMSU.Edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 06:08:56 GMT User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!137.192.6.2!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!hardy.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.NMSU.Edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96266 aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes: > > One of the guys at the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is an > astronomer, and he says that EVERY BIT of EVERY MISSION is available > today. The original tapes are probably long gone (and they would > actually not be seven or nine tracks, but weird analog things from the > telemetry equipment), but the data has been very well cared for over > the years. > > Time to kill this urban legend off. This sounds like two urban legends that need to die together. I'd like to see either a confirmation of a tape off some space mission somewhere that can't be read, or else a file made from that tape that can be read... -- Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair ###### From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3re3v9.av2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> Organization: Metropolis Grafix Reply-To: stanb@dial.pipex.com Message-ID: X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) Date: 11 Dec 2001 09:29:27 GMT Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: useraw87.uk.uudial.com X-Trace: 1008062967 news.dial.pipex.com 225 62.188.138.233 X-Complaints-To: abuse@uk.uu.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!skynet.be!skynet.be!bnewspeer01.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!bnewsifeed03.bru.ops.eu.uu.net!lnewspost00.lnd.ops.eu.uu.net!emea.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96278 On Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:00:51 +0000, Chris Hedley wrote: >According to Stan Barr : >> We mustn't forget the Miles (M38??) supersonic aircraft prototype of >> the early 1940s - scrapped and destroyed by the British Government >> before it even flew, and the research and design data given to the >> American government who gave it to NACA and Bell who then built the >> X-1... > >Would that be part of the rather lop-sided "arrangement" where the US >government got free and unrestricted rights to all UK R&D from that >time period? Yeah...along with microwave radar, jet engines, etc. etc... But why destroy all evidence of the Miles plane?? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! ###### From: "Rupert Pigott" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:12:56 -0000 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9v4m9a$9mo$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9v0a0f$6rp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> <3re3v9.av2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-132-179.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96355 Chris Hedley wrote in message news:3re3v9.av2.ln@teabag.cbhnet... > Would that be part of the rather lop-sided "arrangement" where the US > government got free and unrestricted rights to all UK R&D from that > time period? Whatever you may feel about it, the British politicians made the choices... I imagine that Americans getting unrestricted R&D in part exchange for helping us not get invaded seemed like a fair trade at the time. 20/20 hindsight is too easy, but yes, it does feel one sided. :) Cheers, Rupert ###### From: Peter N. M. Hansteen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 11 Dec 2001 13:28:12 +0100 Organization: Only to a certain degree Lines: 18 Sender: peter@tosh Message-ID: <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.54.107.19 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1008074056 13724726 194.54.107.19 (16 [67457]) X-Orig-Path: 127.0.0.1!nobody Original-Sender: peter@bgnett.no X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.54.107.19!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96252 aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes: > One of the guys at the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is an > astronomer, and he says that EVERY BIT of EVERY MISSION is available > today. I take this to mean that those who need the data also have access to software that is able to make sense of it. I'd be very greateful to have verification that the half remembered report/rumor was actually not true. If the lunar mission data is both available and readable, I'll be looking elsewhere for disaster stories ;) > Time to kill this urban legend off. It appears so. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> From: Dowe Keller Date: 11 Dec 2001 04:59:18 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.38 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.234.196.38 X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1008148470 209.234.196.38 (12 Dec 2001 01:14:30 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96313 Ian Stirling writes: > If "uploading" becomes possible (uploading of conciousness into computer > (perhaps only on death)), then it's likely I'll still be around in some > form, with the ability to run the same software in the year 21000. Just hope the op doesn't drop your deck between the ABWCP (Automated Brain-Wave Card Punch), and the reader. -- dowe@sierratel.com http://www.sierratel.com/dowe ###### From: "Walter Rottenkolber" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:55:54 -0800 Lines: 66 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.205.39 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.155.205.39 Message-ID: <3c163bf2@news.sierratel.com> X-Trace: news.sierratel.com 1008090098 209.155.205.39 (11 Dec 2001 09:01:38 -0800) Organization: news.sierratel.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!news.sierratel.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96294 Charles Richmond wrote in message <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net>... >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> In article <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net>, >> Charles Richmond wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...] >> >> >> >> The most important point is that private individuals are doing >> >> this archiving. If it's a company, just a buyout or a product >> >> line cancellation can lose everything due to lack of interest. >> >> >> >IMHO, that's because companies are only interested in *money*, >> >*not* in the products that they make. History is full of examples >> >where products and people were *screwed*, in the perception that >> >the company could make more *money*. (Take the exploiding gas tank >> >saga of the Ford Pinto, for example. The 36-bit line of DEC computers >> >were also a casualty of this type of company greed.) >> > >> >Companies may *say* that they are interested in their product line, >> >but that is only a ploy that is perceived to make them more *money*... >> > >> But that's a good thing. It keeps everybody in the company >> focused on one goal no matter what the individual agendas were. >> Note that DEC never knew how much money was getting made by >> the PDP-10 product line. For instance, all the minis sold >> to a -10 customers were not "counted" as revenue generated >> by the -10. >> >IMHO it is *not* a good thing when the company is interested >*only* in making money, to the exclusion of morals or harm caused >by the company to the planet. When people are put at risk by >unsafe products, the companies should do everything they can to >rectify the situation. > >If you read carefully, you will notice that I also said the >*perception* that the company will make more money. This IMHO is >why the VAX became the *only* major system sold by DEC, and the >PDP-10 business went out the window. The suits had the *perception* >that this way would make more money. > >Businesses should make money by offering a quality product or >service for sale. Businesses should *not* make money by trying >to find the right button to push that will spew cash in their >faces. IMHO. >> >> Blaming it all on that nasty money-making is not the cause >> but is a ploy by liberals and politicians to garner support. >> >Well, I am a conservative Democrat myself...*not* a liberal >Democrat...and certainly *not* a Republican. > >I have *no* objection to companies (or myself) making money. >I think that is fine and dandy. I just think that often the >suits get too wound up in making money, and forget what product >they are trying to produce. > If you only would hold politicians to the same high standard. Especially those who steal the White House furniture when they leave. Walter Rottenkolber ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com> <9v4umg$ku1$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:02:56 -0500 Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c162021$1_3@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1008082977 204.250.0.238 (11 Dec 2001 10:02:57 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!198.6.0.7!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96248 wrote in message news:9v4umg$ku1$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > In article <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com>, > "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: > > wrote in message > >news:jjh2v9.di1.ln@setter.lysse.co.uk... > >> > >> Besides, there's a difference between money-making (honest work honestly > >> paid) and nasty money-making (when people start using their power to > >> screw other people over, line their own pockets, bean-count, etc.) > > > >Unfortunatelty, the design of the Invisible Hand assumed that we would > >all be in the former category, and few if any would be in the latter > >category. > > > >Why is why the private ownership of the means of production DOES work, > >but letting business have free rein doesn't. > > > >Profit is to business what cocaine is to mammals... > > Sigh! Competition. A fine an honorable thing, when only bragging rights are at stake. -dq ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:05:00 -0500 Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1008083101 204.250.0.238 (11 Dec 2001 10:05:01 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96254 "Joe Pfeiffer" wrote in message news:1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu... > aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes: > > > > One of the guys at the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is an > > astronomer, and he says that EVERY BIT of EVERY MISSION is available > > today. The original tapes are probably long gone (and they would > > actually not be seven or nine tracks, but weird analog things from the > > telemetry equipment), but the data has been very well cared for over > > the years. > > > > Time to kill this urban legend off. > > This sounds like two urban legends that need to die together. I'd > like to see either a confirmation of a tape off some space mission > somewhere that can't be read, or else a file made from that tape that > can be read... Can't speak to that, but I've recoverd 100% of data from 17-year-old magtapes that had been stored under water and had mold growing on them and oxide falling off in my hands... They were, fortunately, nine-tracks... -dq ###### From: Jeff Teunissen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Organization: Dusk To Dawn Computing Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3C161F75.B9501EA5@d2dc.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.16 i686) X-Accept-Language: en-US, en NNTP-Posting-Host: EVoR7-158590-wL4-110026@rwcrnsc51 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc51 1008083402 EVoR7-158590-wL4-110026@rwcrnsc51 (Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:10:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:10:02 GMT Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:10:02 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.204!attbi_feed4!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc51.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96414 "Peter N. M. Hansteen" wrote: > > aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes: > > > One of the guys at the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is an > > astronomer, and he says that EVERY BIT of EVERY MISSION is available > > today. > > I take this to mean that those who need the data also have access to > software that is able to make sense of it. I'd be very greateful to > have verification that the half remembered report/rumor was actually > not true. If the lunar mission data is both available and readable, > I'll be looking elsewhere for disaster stories ;) There was a recent report of someone who wanted to look at the Viking experimental data, but NASA were not able to read the tapes. The tapes were religiously preserved, but in a format so old that no one could figure out how to read it -- and the original programmers who created the format had died. Luckily, the data was finally recovered -- from printouts. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-07/uosc-unf072701.php -- | Jeff Teunissen -=- Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing -=- deek @ d2dc.net | GPG: 1024D/9840105A 7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B 161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105A | Core developer, The QuakeForge Project http://www.quakeforge.net/ | Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/ ###### From: Joel Gallun Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 11 Dec 2001 10:39:14 -0500 Organization: AOL Time Warner Lines: 22 Sender: snake@severn.office.aol.com Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: severn.office.aol.com X-Trace: inntp-m1.news.aol.com 1008085160 1110 10.0.34.253 (11 Dec 2001 15:39:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@aol.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:39:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!64.245.249.19.MISMATCH!dfw3-feed1.news.digex.net!dca6-feed1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp-internal.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96381 > aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes: > > > One of the guys at the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is an > > astronomer, and he says that EVERY BIT of EVERY MISSION is available > > today. I doubt it. When I worked at the Goddard Spaceflight Center in the 80's there was a project under way to convert all the data from the early missions from various magtapes to CD-ROM. The tapes had been stored in warehouses since the early '60s and at least a few didn't have many useful bits left on them. Remember that most of this data was written with no error detection or correction capability other than a simple parity bit. On the other hand, all the results from the analysis of that data should still be available in tech reports from the Goddard library. -- Joel Gallun Compaq support team @ America Online http://www.tux.org/~joel ###### From: Peter N. M. Hansteen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 11 Dec 2001 17:04:18 +0100 Organization: Only to a certain degree Lines: 19 Sender: peter@tosh Message-ID: <87adwpivzx.fsf@bgnett.no> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> <3C161F75.B9501EA5@d2dc.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.54.107.19 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1008086774 13754167 194.54.107.19 (16 [67457]) X-Orig-Path: 127.0.0.1!nobody Original-Sender: peter@bgnett.no X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.54.107.19!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96277 Jeff Teunissen writes: > There was a recent report of someone who wanted to look at the Viking > experimental data, but NASA were not able to read the tapes. The tapes were > religiously preserved, but in a format so old that no one could figure out how > to read it -- and the original programmers who created the format had died. > Luckily, the data was finally recovered -- from printouts. > > http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-07/uosc-unf072701.php This one sounds like something pretty much like I was looking for - examples of situations where preserved data were not much use anyway since the data format (logical organization of the stored data) had been lost. Good show they managed to get the data back anyway, though :) -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team ###### From: Peter N. M. Hansteen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 11 Dec 2001 17:47:24 +0100 Organization: Only to a certain degree Lines: 12 Sender: peter@tosh Message-ID: <877krtiu03.fsf@bgnett.no> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> <3C161F75.B9501EA5@d2dc.net> <87adwpivzx.fsf@bgnett.no> <9v5b8v$3vi$4@bob.news.rcn.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.54.107.19 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1008089423 13606410 194.54.107.19 (16 [67457]) X-Orig-Path: 127.0.0.1!nobody Original-Sender: peter@bgnett.no X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.54.107.19!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96249 jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > If you're really looking for examples, you should probably go > to the newsgroups where the people who do the work hang out. I thought I'd sample the voice of experience first :) But you're rigtht of course, there are other news groups where this would be on-topic. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:33:22 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: <21g5v9.ho1.ln@teabag.cbhnet> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3re3v9.av2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1008093605 nnrp-10:28534 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96279 According to Stan Barr : > Yeah...along with microwave radar, jet engines, etc. etc... > > But why destroy all evidence of the Miles plane?? If I were a conspiracy theorist I might think it was because they were "told" to... but I'm not, so I dunno. Chris. ###### From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:40:31 +0000 Organization: Honest Chris' Sysadmin Emporium Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3re3v9.av2.ln@teabag.cbhnet> <9v4m9a$9mo$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1008093606 nnrp-10:28534 NO-IDENT teabag.demon.co.uk:193.237.4.110 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test76 (Apr 2, 2001) Originator: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.74.65.73.MISMATCH!btnet-peer0!btnet!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!teabag.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96297 According to Rupert Pigott : > Whatever you may feel about it, the British politicians made the choices... > I imagine that Americans getting unrestricted R&D in part exchange for > helping us not get invaded seemed like a fair trade at the time. 20/20 > hindsight is too easy, but yes, it does feel one sided. :) I'm not sure if it was ever seen as a fair deal; the UK was at the time in desperate need, and it appears that the people doing the bargaining could pretty much name whatever price they liked because the UK gov't wasn't in any position to say no. In hindsight, it's clear that this disadvantageous situation was milked for all it was worth, almost bankrupting the country and removing the value of any innovations which could've helped expedite an economic recovery afterwards. Chris. ###### From: Sam Yorko Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:46:08 -0800 Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3C167EA0.6AC32434@computer.org> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> <3C161F75.B9501EA5@d2dc.net> <87adwpivzx.fsf@bgnett.no> <9v5b8v$3vi$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <877krtiu03.fsf@bgnett.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: symsj01.sj.symbol.com (63.145.233.34) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1008107121 13708071 63.145.233.34 (16 [71567]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!symsj01.sj.symbol.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96264 "Peter N. M. Hansteen" wrote: > > Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team I'll bet this is a real feather in your cap.... Sam ###### From: Peter N. M. Hansteen Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 11 Dec 2001 23:38:25 +0100 Organization: Only to a certain degree Lines: 12 Sender: peter@tosh Message-ID: <871yi1idr2.fsf@bgnett.no> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> <3C161F75.B9501EA5@d2dc.net> <87adwpivzx.fsf@bgnett.no> <9v5b8v$3vi$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <877krtiu03.fsf@bgnett.no> <3C167EA0.6AC32434@computer.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.54.107.19 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1008110413 14017093 194.54.107.19 (16 [67457]) X-Orig-Path: 127.0.0.1!nobody Original-Sender: peter@bgnett.no X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.54.107.19!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96247 Sam Yorko writes: > > Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team > > I'll bet this is a real feather in your cap.... Well, at least we have an audit trail ;) url:http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/vegard_bilder/tn/20audit_trail.jpg.html -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:51:31 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbRctooL8bDCD9Tw/jSAVQDq6UVufD/bbBgAef2/+Fj9y7GOBxTMip0 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Dec 2001 23:51:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!dca6-feed2.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96390 On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:05:00 -0500, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: >"Joe Pfeiffer" wrote in message >news:1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu... >> aw288@osfn.org (William Donzelli) writes: >> > >> > One of the guys at the RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is an >> > astronomer, and he says that EVERY BIT of EVERY MISSION is available >> > today. The original tapes are probably long gone (and they would >> > actually not be seven or nine tracks, but weird analog things from the >> > telemetry equipment), but the data has been very well cared for over >> > the years. >> > >> > Time to kill this urban legend off. >> >> This sounds like two urban legends that need to die together. I'd >> like to see either a confirmation of a tape off some space mission >> somewhere that can't be read, or else a file made from that tape that >> can be read... > >Can't speak to that, but I've recoverd 100% of data from 17-year-old >magtapes that had been stored under water and had mold growing >on them and oxide falling off in my hands... > >They were, fortunately, nine-tracks... How are you on 29 year old tapes? All 9's & a mix of 800 & 1600. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:37:30 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: il0502a-dhcp193.apple.com X-Trace: news.apple.com 1008117449 9800 17.205.24.193 (12 Dec 2001 00:37:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.apple.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2001 00:37:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!crtntx1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!forum.apple.com!news.apple.com!il0502a-dhcp193.apple.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96357 In article , Arargh! wrote: > How are you on 29 year old tapes? All 9's & a mix of 800 & 1600. Depends on the brand, the density, and how sticky they are. Memorex is, shall we say, sub-optimal :-< 3M is generally pretty good. As long as the tape doesn't stick so badly that it rips large sections of oxide off, much can be recovered on modern drives with good preamp/agc sections. Depending on how important the data is, services are available which will do analog recovery and DSP post processing. ###### Message-ID: <3C1710F3.7C10A228@ev1.net> From: Charles Richmond Reply-To: richmond@ev1.net Organization: Cannine Computer Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 99 NNTP-Posting-Host: QyCR7-232889-Yy-438009@rwcrnsc53 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc53 1008137649 QyCR7-232889-Yy-438009@rwcrnsc53 (Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:14:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:14:09 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:14:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed.nextra.ch!news.nextra.ch!nextra.at!newsfeed4.cidera.com!newsfeed1.cidera.com!Cidera!netnews.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!news.stealth.net!204.127.161.2.MISMATCH!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc53.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96393 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > > In article <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net>, > Charles Richmond wrote: > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> In article <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net>, > >> Charles Richmond wrote: > > [snip...] [snip...] [sinp...] > > > >IMHO it is *not* a good thing when the company is interested > >*only* in making money, to the exclusion of morals or harm caused > >by the company to the planet. > > IMO, there's no such thing as a company interested in *only* > making money without considering the rest. The most important > part of making money is giving the customers what they need. > You stop making money when you stop doing that. > Surely you can *not* be suggesting that at least *some* companies are harming the environment and at least a segment of their customers, by doing the kind of bussiness that they do... > > >When people are put at risk by > >unsafe products, the companies should do everything they can to > >rectify the situation. > > PTUI! There is no such thing as a 100% safe product. > I do *not* mean to suggest that anything is 100% safe. There is a normal and predictable risk in using a product. But selling baby clothes that are *extremely* flamable is an example of what I am talking about. And selling cars with gas tanks that *explode* when the car is struck from behind at low speed is another example. > > > > >If you read carefully, you will notice that I also said the > >*perception* that the company will make more money. This IMHO is > >why the VAX became the *only* major system sold by DEC, and the > >PDP-10 business went out the window. > > You opinion is incorrect. > Certainly I can be mistaken here...but it *does* seem this way to someone on the outside of DEC like me... > > > .. The suits had the *perception* > >that this way would make more money. > > Nope. They had the perception that the business would be > easier to control. There was also a misconception that > software was not important. Go read about the latest emasculation > attempt of Compaq. Not only do they have an assumption that > the software is unimportant, but they've reached that nether > region of thinking that hardware also falls into that category. > IMHO the possible merger with HP has left Compaq mortally wounded. People are shying away from buying computers that they fear will be unsupported should the merger go through. So sales of Compaq machines has gone *way* down... > > > > >Businesses should make money by offering a quality product or > >service for sale. Businesses should *not* make money by trying > >to find the right button to push that will spew cash in their > >faces. IMHO. > > And, if you take a close look, businesses, who don't do that, > fail. > As someone else pointed out, these businesses do *not* fail fast enough. > > >> > >> Blaming it all on that nasty money-making is not the cause > >> but is a ploy by liberals and politicians to garner support. > >> > >Well, I am a conservative Democrat myself...*not* a liberal > >Democrat...and certainly *not* a Republican. > > These days, I can't tell the difference. > > > > >I have *no* objection to companies (or myself) making money. > >I think that is fine and dandy. I just think that often the > >suits get too wound up in making money, and forget what product > >they are trying to produce. > > But who are those suits? They're people just like you and me. > They aren't a THEY. > The suits I am referring to are the manager-idiots that *you* discuss in some of your posts, BAH. I know you recognize that a class of people in management are fairly clueless... -- +-------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond | +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ###### X-Posting-Agent: Hamster/1.3.23.4 From: Nick Spalding Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Reply-To: spalding@iol.ie Message-ID: <787e1u48bdc4dmdeb9v4gtqqte498d6gvc@4ax.com> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.9/32.555 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:04:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.203.145.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@iol.ie X-Trace: news.iol.ie 1008147848 193.203.145.152 (Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:04:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:04:08 GMT Organization: Ireland On-Line Customer Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.iol.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96386 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote, in <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net>: > But who are those suits? They're people just like you and me. > They aren't a THEY. They may be like you but I hope I am not like them. -- Nick Spalding ###### From: Alistair Gale Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:33:03 -0400 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <97ie1ugdkl9oocs9h3vfotn0fl8kkdljag@4ax.com> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: p-807.newsdawg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.553 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!pln-e!spln!dex!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96418 On 11 Dec 2001 04:59:18 -0800, Dowe Keller wrote: >Ian Stirling writes: > >> If "uploading" becomes possible (uploading of conciousness into computer >> (perhaps only on death)), then it's likely I'll still be around in some >> form, with the ability to run the same software in the year 21000. > >Just hope the op doesn't drop your deck between the ABWCP (Automated >Brain-Wave Card Punch), and the reader. But is a deck of punch cards conscious, or only when it is being executed, what if the deck was punched in Chinese, what if I knew anything about philosophy ..............? -- alistair ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 01 12:05:36 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <9v7oe5$7n0$8@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C1710F3.7C10A228@ev1.net> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbxyW07U+4tl3Oq8yLYFP9qRbVfebGAxTryTPPz4hZGgP7ZCXklHM/D X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2001 14:09:09 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96446 In article <3C1710F3.7C10A228@ev1.net>, Charles Richmond wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >I have *no* objection to companies (or myself) making money. >> >I think that is fine and dandy. I just think that often the >> >suits get too wound up in making money, and forget what product >> >they are trying to produce. >> >> But who are those suits? They're people just like you and me. >> They aren't a THEY. >> >The suits I am referring to are the manager-idiots that *you* >discuss in some of your posts, BAH. I know you recognize that >a class of people in management are fairly clueless... > Most of them were trainable. The one that weren't were the people who should have been fired...but then we get into that flavor of liberal politics, like the EEO crap. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 01 12:02:40 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 83 Message-ID: <9v7o8m$7n0$7@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <2231.745T1401T6564946@sky.bus.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbKOVPkRz0QPex4EJjzbTQKBREo9pwoevK+JOnigkZ9h3JeuqL6dLl5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2001 14:06:14 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96447 In article <2231.745T1401T6564946@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs" wrote: >In article <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> jmfbahciv@aol.com (jmfbahciv) >writes: > >>In article <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net>, >>Charles Richmond wrote: >> >>>IMHO it is *not* a good thing when the company is interested >>>*only* in making money, to the exclusion of morals or harm caused >>>by the company to the planet. >> >>IMO, there's no such thing as a company interested in *only* >>making money without considering the rest. The most important >>part of making money is giving the customers what they need. >>You stop making money when you stop doing that. > >That's where the marketroids come in. Their job is to create a need >where none exists ("Of _course_ you need an Acme cuticle stretcher!") >or to mold those needs into something more amenable to profit >(fashion updates and planned obsolescence are big here). I consider that a big waste of time. If the time and money were spent doing what they're supposed to do (finding out from the customers what they think they want and what they really need), a huge length of product cycle time could be snipped. > >>> When people are put at risk by >>>unsafe products, the companies should do everything they can to >>>rectify the situation. >> >>PTUI! There is no such thing as a 100% safe product. > >And the sooner the public realizes this, the better. Of course, >there are some products out there which are unnecessarily dangerous >because the manufacturer cut corners to save a nickel per unit - >but on the whole the pendulum is swinging too far the other way. Yup. None of this is black and white. The problem, as I see it, is that one guy who's a fuckup causing headaches for everybody else. > >>> .. The suits had the *perception* >>>that this way would make more money. >> >>Nope. They had the perception that the business would be >>easier to control. > >This is an interesting point which crosses over into politics, >where power is more important than money. (If you have power, >you can get all the money you want.) Right. And the power control fight within DEC was between hardware and software. Bell got rid of all VPs who has software backgrounds. If you take a look at the disintegration (my god, I made a wry pun), it is all based on the attitude that software is not an important part of a computer system. This is a normal point of view for a guy who is strictly a hardware type; but it is nonsense from the point of view of a customer. > >>>Businesses should make money by offering a quality product or >>>service for sale. Businesses should *not* make money by trying >>>to find the right button to push that will spew cash in their >>>faces. IMHO. >> >>And, if you take a close look, businesses, who don't do that, >>fail. > >Given the number of thriving businesses producing shoddy products, >the problem must be that they don't fail quickly enough. > Well, yeah. That's where competition is vital. Some kid thinks that he can do something better. Goes off and does it. Nowadays, in the computer biz, he doesn't get a chance to get into product production because he's bought out by companies with a large cash pool. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 01 12:08:01 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <9v7oim$7n0$9@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C15538F.E6A98542@ev1.net> <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <787e1u48bdc4dmdeb9v4gtqqte498d6gvc@4ax.com> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbM2J4X7pEqTpqCo7QgSl0hb6GIJtqJGKZchN8epsl3ke3vKchlIhvW X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2001 14:11:34 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96450 In article <787e1u48bdc4dmdeb9v4gtqqte498d6gvc@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote, in <9v4v4e$ku1$2@bob.news.rcn.net>: > >> But who are those suits? They're people just like you and me. >> They aren't a THEY. > >They may be like you but I hope I am not like them. I appear to have inserted a foot somewhere. Most of our managers started out as PDP-10 programmers and grew up through the ranks. The ones that gave me the most trouble were imports; the exceptions were imports who were broken in by JMF and TW. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 01 12:10:31 GMT Organization: UltraNet Communications, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <9v7onb$7n0$10@bob.news.rcn.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <87d71mhrfn.fsf@bgnett.no> <3C161F75.B9501EA5@d2dc.net> <87adwpivzx.fsf@bgnett.no> <9v5b8v$3vi$4@bob.news.rcn.net> <877krtiu03.fsf@bgnett.no> X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaswmFr7kJHuVVafbjdk9L12B0wFGLyYvD+5Kk73DDE9qCOvEm60kEP X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Dec 2001 14:14:03 GMT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!209-122-233-171 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96455 In article <877krtiu03.fsf@bgnett.no>, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: > >> If you're really looking for examples, you should probably go >> to the newsgroups where the people who do the work hang out. > >I thought I'd sample the voice of experience first :) In this case, we're not the experience. ;-) > >But you're rigtht of course, there are other news groups where >this would be on-topic. > Every user out there has their own story about work lost, either due to age or lack of backup procedures. /BAH Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail. ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <9uvn44$buv$2@bob.news.rcn.net> <3C13F83C.55F69FF2@ev1.net> <9v29gu$f0g$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <3c14e5af_2@news.iglou.com> <9v4umg$ku1$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3c162021$1_3@news.iglou.com> <9v57tq$m3e$2@bob.news.rcn.net> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:02:00 -0500 Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c176359_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1008165721 204.250.0.238 (12 Dec 2001 09:02:01 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news2.euro.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96429 wrote in message news:9v57tq$m3e$2@bob.news.rcn.net... > >A fine an honorable thing, when only bragging rights are at stake. > > Oh, bullshit. It just like football. You can compete with the > only goal of winning tomorrow's game or you can compete with > a goal of winning the trophy. There is a difference in each > strategy. To do the first, you don't care if you eat your seed > corn. My point is, unless you're the coach, you don't stand to lose the roof over your head, the meals on your table, or the shirt on your back. Now, losing coaches are only tolerated for a while, unless they're Bobby Knight, and then you have to conspire against them to sack them. But in the Real World, people lose bigtime over these little competitive games. I'm sure you've probably seen "Trading Places" with Eddie Murphy, Don Ameche, and Ralph whats-his-name. You'd find it hard to convince me that suits don't play those kind of games with people's lives. Regards, -dq ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:03:27 -0500 Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1008165808 204.250.0.238 (12 Dec 2001 09:03:28 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96430 "Al Kossow" wrote in message news:aek-1112011637300001@il0502a-dhcp193.apple.com... > In article , Arargh! > wrote: > > > How are you on 29 year old tapes? All 9's & a mix of 800 & 1600. > > Depends on the brand, the density, and how sticky they are. > > Memorex is, shall we say, sub-optimal :-< > > 3M is generally pretty good. > > As long as the tape doesn't stick so badly that it rips large > sections of oxide off, much can be recovered on modern drives > with good preamp/agc sections. > > Depending on how important the data is, services are available > which will do analog recovery and DSP post processing. Al's technique is baking the tapes; mine I call "wet read". Haven't tried any tapes as old as the ones you mention, but after I fulfill some backlogged requests, I might be willing to try... -dq ###### From: Steve O'Hara-Smith Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:51:40 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo NL Lines: 19 Message-ID: <20011212195140.00d6a7a0.steveo@eircom.net> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <3c12af87.12803089@news.tesco.net> <1007887223.17681.0.nnrp-10.9e98d142@news.demon.co.uk> <97ie1ugdkl9oocs9h3vfotn0fl8kkdljag@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: p1087.vcu.wanadoo.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: scavenger.euro.net 1008184462 30276 194.134.203.68 (12 Dec 2001 19:14:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@wanadoo.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:14:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Sylpheed version 0.6.5 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news2.euro.net!news.euronet.nl!ams-gw.sohara.org!nobody Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96489 On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:33:03 -0400 Alistair Gale wrote: AG> But is a deck of punch cards conscious, or only when it is being AG> executed, what if the deck was punched in Chinese, what if I knew AG> anything about philosophy ..............? Go read some Greg Egan - "Permutation City" for starters. No answers (of course) but some interesting experiments to run when the hardware is available. Also consider the intersting case of gradual replacement of the brain by some artificial mechanism (say 0.1%/day until it's all done). -- C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see: | http://www.sohara.org/ ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 04:13:14 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZl65Bh6eIMy/8j+cnHuzpV7L/QUEMQGC6U/ElCcAl8O7fsmPdkzJBj X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 10:14:03 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96524 Replying to both posters: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:03:27 -0500, "Douglas H. Quebbeman" wrote: >"Al Kossow" wrote in message >news:aek-1112011637300001@il0502a-dhcp193.apple.com... >> In article , Arargh! >> wrote: >> >> > How are you on 29 year old tapes? All 9's & a mix of 800 & 1600. >> >> Depends on the brand, the density, and how sticky they are. >> >> Memorex is, shall we say, sub-optimal :-< Some of the ones I would like read are "Memorex MRX III" >> >> 3M is generally pretty good. >> >> As long as the tape doesn't stick so badly that it rips large >> sections of oxide off, much can be recovered on modern drives >> with good preamp/agc sections. If either of my drives worked, I would try them. But they are not very modern. >> >> Depending on how important the data is, services are available >> which will do analog recovery and DSP post processing. Not very important, except historically. (see below) > >Al's technique is baking the tapes; mine I call "wet read". Well, some of these tapes got wet, which is part of the problem. > >Haven't tried any tapes as old as the ones you mention, but >after I fulfill some backlogged requests, I might be willing >to try... Some of the tapes I would like to read came from the "IBM contributed program library" , of which I can find little or no trace in a google search. If I could find it, I would just download the data. Anyway, some of the titles on the tapes are "BASIC/RAX", "JOVIAL"(2), "ONLINE/OS", "BASIC/TSS", "APL"(3), "XPL", "CMS", "TEXT360". For most of these, I have the cpl #, "B360..." Some non-cpl titles: "ASMG"(2), "705 DIAGS/PROGS"(3). The (#) is how many tapes with that title. Does anyone know where the "IBM contributed program library" data went to? -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 13 Dec 2001 14:26:15 GMT Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <9vadq7$fh5$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> Reply-To: ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet10 X-Trace: freenet9.carleton.ca 1008253575 15909 134.117.136.30 (13 Dec 2001 14:26:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: complaints@ncf.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 14:26:15 GMT X-Given-Sender: ab528@freenet10.carleton.ca (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.netcologne.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp.abs.net!feeder.qis.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!xcski.com!freenet-news!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ab528 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96577 Arargh! (Arargh@Arargh.com) writes: > > > Some of the tapes I would like to read came from the "IBM contributed > program library" , of which I can find little or no trace in a google > search. If I could find it, I would just download the data. Anyway, > some of the titles on the tapes are "BASIC/RAX", "JOVIAL"(2), > "ONLINE/OS", "BASIC/TSS", "APL"(3), "XPL", "CMS", "TEXT360". ^^^ > Does anyone know where the "IBM contributed program library" data went > to? That one is in my tape library somewhere. However, it has been a challenge to get 9 track 800 bpi read recently. I'll have to dig it out and try again at a site in California(?) after the "festive season". ###### Sender: lynn@LYNNPC Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> Reply-To: Anne & Lynn Wheeler From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler Message-ID: Organization: Wheeler&Wheeler Lines: 27 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090003 (Oort Gnus v0.03) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:38:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.211.247.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1008257926 63.211.247.31 (Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:38:46 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:38:46 PST X-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:38:45 PST (newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96571 Arargh! writes: > Some of the tapes I would like to read came from the "IBM contributed > program library" , of which I can find little or no trace in a google > search. If I could find it, I would just download the data. Anyway, > some of the titles on the tapes are "BASIC/RAX", "JOVIAL"(2), > "ONLINE/OS", "BASIC/TSS", "APL"(3), "XPL", "CMS", "TEXT360". For most > of these, I have the cpl #, "B360..." at least one of the ONLINE/OS .... was an interactive shell done for OS that provided something of the CMS look & feel for OS/360 operator. The standard use was running PCP (although it could be MFT or MVT) in a CP/67 or VM/370 virtual machine. It was done by somebody at union carbide (north carolina?) ... who got an assignment to cambridge science center. CMS ... was the Cambridge Monitoring System (later renamed Conversational Monitoring System) ... which was the end-user portion that went with CP/67 (and VM/370). LLMPS would also be there someplace ... lincoln labs multiprograamming system ... which lore has was the original basis for MTS ... michigan terminal/time-sharing system. -- Anne & Lynn Wheeler | lynn@garlic.com - http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/ ###### From: "Douglas H. Quebbeman" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> <9vadq7$fh5$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:44:21 -0500 Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Message-ID: <3c18ccd6$1_1@news.iglou.com> X-Trace: news.iglou.com 1008258262 204.250.0.238 (13 Dec 2001 10:44:22 -0500) X-Authenticated-User: dougq X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.0.238 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.abs.net!uunet!dca.uu.net!ash.uu.net!news.iglou.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96544 "Heinz W. Wiggeshoff" wrote in message news:9vadq7$fh5$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Arargh! (Arargh@Arargh.com) writes: > > > > Some of the tapes I would like to read came from the "IBM contributed > > program library" , of which I can find little or no trace in a google > > search. If I could find it, I would just download the data. Anyway, > > some of the titles on the tapes are "BASIC/RAX", "JOVIAL"(2), > > "ONLINE/OS", "BASIC/TSS", "APL"(3), "XPL", "CMS", "TEXT360". > ^^^ > > Does anyone know where the "IBM contributed program library" data went > > to? > > That one is in my tape library somewhere. However, it has been > a challenge to get 9 track 800 bpi read recently. I'll have to dig it > out and try again at a site in California(?) after the "festive season". Festivus! Festivus for the Rest of Us! -dq ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:38:27 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> <9vadq7$fh5$1@freenet9.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVaCoCzvVs4YQqvre4bO3/r5lu+TH6lgBkhHW8w/e9HUAZJroMJ5p8ba X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 23:39:33 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96800 On 13 Dec 2001 14:26:15 GMT, ab528@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Heinz W. Wiggeshoff) wrote: >Arargh! (Arargh@Arargh.com) writes: >> >> >> Some of the tapes I would like to read came from the "IBM contributed >> program library" , of which I can find little or no trace in a google >> search. If I could find it, I would just download the data. Anyway, >> some of the titles on the tapes are "BASIC/RAX", "JOVIAL"(2), >> "ONLINE/OS", "BASIC/TSS", "APL"(3), "XPL", "CMS", "TEXT360". > ^^^ >> Does anyone know where the "IBM contributed program library" data went >> to? > > That one is in my tape library somewhere. However, it has been > a challenge to get 9 track 800 bpi read recently. I'll have to dig it > out and try again at a site in California(?) after the "festive season". After posting this, I went a-hunting on the web. I found a copy of "XPL" on cbttape.org. However, it is in an ".XMI", which I no format info for. And, this is one of the few tapes I had read in the past, and I had recovered 5/6 of the tape. Also, I send an email to IBM, and got back a phone #, which I will call tomorrow. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:41:56 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 34 Message-ID: <20fi1ukjsabduu326rn5ag3sfp0j9ih076@4ax.com> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVYmkNT3JYIvbUUBRiZ9HRIzTPOqi7YjzgNtlD2im9VAcUThY8NRwrZX X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 23:43:02 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96795 On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:38:46 GMT, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote: >Arargh! writes: > >> Some of the tapes I would like to read came from the "IBM contributed >> program library" , of which I can find little or no trace in a google >> search. If I could find it, I would just download the data. Anyway, >> some of the titles on the tapes are "BASIC/RAX", "JOVIAL"(2), >> "ONLINE/OS", "BASIC/TSS", "APL"(3), "XPL", "CMS", "TEXT360". For most >> of these, I have the cpl #, "B360..." > >at least one of the ONLINE/OS .... was an interactive shell done for OS >that provided something of the CMS look & feel for OS/360 >operator. The standard use was running PCP (although it could be MFT >or MVT) in a CP/67 or VM/370 virtual machine. It was done by somebody >at union carbide (north carolina?) ... who got an assignment to >cambridge science center. I remember playing around with this one, back in about 1972. But I tired of all the machine checks, with that stupid horn. (This was on a 50 with dirty switch contacts.) > >CMS ... was the Cambridge Monitoring System (later renamed >Conversational Monitoring System) ... which was the end-user portion >that went with CP/67 (and VM/370). That what I hoped the tape was. > >LLMPS would also be there someplace ... lincoln labs multiprograamming >system ... which lore has was the original basis for MTS ... michigan >terminal/time-sharing system. I never ordered that tape, but I wouldn't mind a copy. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com ###### Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: ehrice@his.com (Edward Rice) Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Message-ID: Organization: NDS Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 01:40:01 -0500 References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <9ut6bi$lsm$5@bob.news.rcn.net> <9uts4m$670$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: max1h-10.his.com X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 1008571203 max1h-10.his.com (17 Dec 2001 01:40:03 -0500) Lines: 36 X-Authenticated-User: ehrice Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!nntp1.roc.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.gblx.net!vienna7.his.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96911 In article <9uts4m$670$1@uranium.btinternet.com>, "Rupert Pigott" wrote: > wrote in message news:9ut6bi$lsm$5@bob.news.rcn.net... > > In article <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no>, > [SNIP] > > And on hardcopy. I thought that I'd covered all possible > > bit lossage scenarios with TOPS-10. Then I got sick. > > Without me there to ensure that each build was done from > > scratch, they took a shortcut and started out with step > > four. When they ran into the expected problems that the > > shortcut would produce, they "fixed" it by hand, taking more > > time than if they'ld just done it right. > > > > I still don't know how to arrange a system that would have > > prevented this. > > A really really bad tempered drill sergeant who knows absolutely nothing > about software but knows how to give orders, tell when people are disobeying > orders, and most importantly : Make their lives hell when they disobey > orders. > > Instead of that a really beaurocratic "production" release fuhrer will > suffice. The Drill Sergeant is far preferable though because he's > reasonable. There's also the innovative approach of not having any critical personnel in a production line. Cross-training and depth of personnel resources. Not all companies have the resources or the sense to apply them toward this model. Some have. ehr ###### From: jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: 13 Dec 2001 17:54:50 GMT Organization: The MITRE Corporation Lines: 41 Message-ID: <9vaq1a$96t$1@top.mitre.org> References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> Reply-To: jcmorris@mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Host: jmorris-pc.mitre.org X-Trace: top.mitre.org 1008266090 9437 128.29.114.13 (13 Dec 2001 17:54:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.mitre.org NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Dec 2001 17:54:50 GMT X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cambridge1-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newstransit.mitre.org!news.mitre.org!jcmorris Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:96986 Arargh! writes: >Some of the tapes I would like to read came from the "IBM contributed >program library" , of which I can find little or no trace in a google >search. If I could find it, I would just download the data. Anyway, >some of the titles on the tapes are "BASIC/RAX", "JOVIAL"(2), >"ONLINE/OS", "BASIC/TSS", "APL"(3), "XPL", "CMS", "TEXT360". For most >of these, I have the cpl #, "B360..." Ah, Jovial. Coffee bet says that the two tapes you have for that program are actually dump/restore images of a 2314 disk. The reason I recall that is that I ordered the tapes (no charge back then) to see if I could make use of the compiler -- and my shop had only 3330 DASD. I wound up patching a UCB to make it look like it had the geometry of a 2314, restored the images, and copied off all of the data sets onto (correctly- configured) 3330 disks. A good example of the problem being discussed elsewhere on a.f.c about data format longevity. (The Jovial compiler on the tapes was lousy. Not only could it not compile the sample source file shipped with it, but it managed to mangle the compiler time and date stamps in the compiler SYSPRINT output's header lines.) >Some non-cpl titles: "ASMG"(2), "705 DIAGS/PROGS"(3). Um..."ASMG" is (or was) a licensed product of Waterloo even if it was created by fixing some of the stupidities in ASM-F. >Does anyone know where the "IBM contributed program library" data went >to? Many, many years ago it became SPLA (SHARE Program Library Agency), operated by University of North Carolina (or was it TUCC? I don't recall) and most recently was at the University of Miami. A quick check of the SHARE web site (www.share.org) suggests that it's recently been decommissioned, but I've been out of touch with SHARE for several years. Joe Morris ###### From: Arargh! Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Re: Valid reference on lunar mission data being unreadable? Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 01:42:24 -0600 Organization: Arargh!! Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <87d71p7vlz.fsf@bgnett.no> <87n10rbltc.fsf@bgnett.no> <8a1964a6.0112101956.73daf79b@posting.google.com> <1belm270g5.fsf@cs.nmsu.edu> <3c16209d$1_1@news.iglou.com> <3c1763b0_1@news.iglou.com> <9vaq1a$96t$1@top.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbzXa/+kXFjd3ACLpCaB07tg8o/D2IeF3GU7UGMGScXugnRL6Yebiqs X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Dec 2001 07:47:52 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch alt.folklore.computers:97058 On 13 Dec 2001 17:54:50 GMT, jcmorris@mitre.org (Joe Morris) wrote: >>Does anyone know where the "IBM contributed program library" data went >>to? > >Many, many years ago it became SPLA (SHARE Program Library Agency), >operated by University of North Carolina (or was it TUCC? I don't >recall) and most recently was at the University of Miami. A quick >check of the SHARE web site (www.share.org) suggests that it's >recently been decommissioned, but I've been out of touch with >SHARE for several years. After hunting around on the web for a while, I came pretty much to the same conclusion. -- Arargh (at arargh dot com) http://www.arargh.com